Dropin'drones
October 19, 2015 3:25 PM Subscribe
Nora Young on CBC's Spark interviews Scot Yount, who was hit by a drone during a parade, and Joe O'Neil, whose quadrocopter crashed onto a police van in London, ON (podcast). With drone-related accidents on the rise, the US DOT has formed a task force to create a registration process. Registration could begin as soon as the holiday season, DOT officials said Monday.
I could have jammed more links in there I guess... Illegal 4-Foot Drone Shut Down Aerial Firefight Over Lake Fire: Forest Service. There are some legitimate issues.
posted by GuyZero at 3:36 PM on October 19, 2015 [20 favorites]
posted by GuyZero at 3:36 PM on October 19, 2015 [20 favorites]
Every drone should have a government issued ID number/letters on it, in at least 2 places (in case one gets broken off in a crash), just like tail numbers on air planes. They should be free, and tied to a database that is accessible to the public, so that people can return wayward drones after crashes, etc.
posted by MikeWarot at 3:41 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by MikeWarot at 3:41 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
Is there a reason people would think there aren't legitimate safety issues? Because interesting technology suddenly makes people behave well?
Drones are very very popular here in Hong Kong and are widely available. I see them used a lot in ways which are either dangerous or questionable (I'm on the 39th floor, and looked out one day to see one of them hovering outside my window). Assume registration isn't the answer, then how do we avoid the abuses?
posted by frumiousb at 3:47 PM on October 19, 2015 [9 favorites]
Drones are very very popular here in Hong Kong and are widely available. I see them used a lot in ways which are either dangerous or questionable (I'm on the 39th floor, and looked out one day to see one of them hovering outside my window). Assume registration isn't the answer, then how do we avoid the abuses?
posted by frumiousb at 3:47 PM on October 19, 2015 [9 favorites]
This is a good article about the UK approach to training and a drone code.
posted by frumiousb at 3:51 PM on October 19, 2015
posted by frumiousb at 3:51 PM on October 19, 2015
I'm on the 39th floor, and looked out one day to see one of them hovering outside my window
Young touches on this with her interview with the aviation lawyer - does the existence of drones fundamentally change what constitutes a "reasonable expectation of privacy"? It's a pretty crazy question.
posted by GuyZero at 3:53 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Young touches on this with her interview with the aviation lawyer - does the existence of drones fundamentally change what constitutes a "reasonable expectation of privacy"? It's a pretty crazy question.
posted by GuyZero at 3:53 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Register your drones lest they cause injury and incident! Any changes in gun laws are too much of a burden to ask for.
posted by msbutah at 3:56 PM on October 19, 2015 [32 favorites]
posted by msbutah at 3:56 PM on October 19, 2015 [32 favorites]
There are talks about using this.
Irresponsible drone usage is a real pain for us in the industry. We're pushing for a "Drone Licence", just like a driver's licence.
posted by The Power Nap at 3:57 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Irresponsible drone usage is a real pain for us in the industry. We're pushing for a "Drone Licence", just like a driver's licence.
posted by The Power Nap at 3:57 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Conveniently this contraband is equipped to smuggle itself over the borders.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 4:00 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 4:00 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
1 Million drones expected to be sold in the US this holiday season
Under 1/4 Million Airplanes registered in the US.
The total number of flying craft in US Airspace is about to skyrocket (sorry for the pun!), and while Registration is by no means an answer, it is certainly a not-bad first step.
I'm on the 39th floor, and looked out one day to see one of them hovering outside my window
I don't know HK law, but in the US there are already a number of laws that allow you to sue someone for stalking, invading your space, harassment, etc. The problem, historically, has been connecting the offending drone to the offending drone user. I think this registry should allow many (not all, obvs) of the laws that are already on the books to be more applicable to the drone-space, with minimal new laws criminalizing drones. This is a good thing.
posted by DGStieber at 4:01 PM on October 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
Under 1/4 Million Airplanes registered in the US.
The total number of flying craft in US Airspace is about to skyrocket (sorry for the pun!), and while Registration is by no means an answer, it is certainly a not-bad first step.
I'm on the 39th floor, and looked out one day to see one of them hovering outside my window
I don't know HK law, but in the US there are already a number of laws that allow you to sue someone for stalking, invading your space, harassment, etc. The problem, historically, has been connecting the offending drone to the offending drone user. I think this registry should allow many (not all, obvs) of the laws that are already on the books to be more applicable to the drone-space, with minimal new laws criminalizing drones. This is a good thing.
posted by DGStieber at 4:01 PM on October 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
Any changes in gun laws are too much of a burden to ask for.
As much as I'd prefer any country's gun laws to the USA's, drones aren't in the US Constitution.
YET AM I RITE?
posted by GuyZero at 4:01 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
As much as I'd prefer any country's gun laws to the USA's, drones aren't in the US Constitution.
YET AM I RITE?
posted by GuyZero at 4:01 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
Oh yes it's for our safety. It always is.
I would want to know who the legal registered owner is so I could sue them for any damages.
posted by Brian B. at 4:02 PM on October 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
I would want to know who the legal registered owner is so I could sue them for any damages.
posted by Brian B. at 4:02 PM on October 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
I don't know HK law, but in the US there are already a number of laws that allow you to sue someone for stalking, invading your space, harassment, etc. The problem, historically, has been connecting the offending drone to the offending drone user.
Right-- and even if I brought the thing down with a well aimed book (I was tempted, but I was worried about it who it might hurt down below) then they couldn't necessarily find the person who owns it. The usual laws apply, for sure, but they don't do much good if the perps can't be identified. A well placed and visible ID code would be a step forward.
I was running a race last weekend, and there were a number of drones criss-crossing over the heads of the runners at the start line (definitely closer than 50 meters!). If one of them had gone down, then people could have gotten really hurt. I kind of like drones, and all it would take is one big bad incident like that to get them legislated out of existence.
posted by frumiousb at 4:06 PM on October 19, 2015
Right-- and even if I brought the thing down with a well aimed book (I was tempted, but I was worried about it who it might hurt down below) then they couldn't necessarily find the person who owns it. The usual laws apply, for sure, but they don't do much good if the perps can't be identified. A well placed and visible ID code would be a step forward.
I was running a race last weekend, and there were a number of drones criss-crossing over the heads of the runners at the start line (definitely closer than 50 meters!). If one of them had gone down, then people could have gotten really hurt. I kind of like drones, and all it would take is one big bad incident like that to get them legislated out of existence.
posted by frumiousb at 4:06 PM on October 19, 2015
I'm glad to see this, and I wouldn't mind drone operator licensing either. I think drones are super neat and could be used for some pretty fantastic things, like evaluating the situation in a natural disaster zone where it might be dangerous or difficult for people. I understand their appeal, and have been wanting one for professional reasons.
But three times now, as a lone woman, I've been hiking/backpacking and had drones circle around where I was. That scared the hell out of me. And being out in public land, like in a wilderness area, and have a drone fly up just as you're sitting down to wildlife watch is a very irritating experience - for both people and the wildlife.
Issues like that have led to the banning of drones in National Parks, but that hasn't stopped some stupid shit, like someone crashing their drone into Yellowstone's Grand Prismatic Spring.
posted by barchan at 4:06 PM on October 19, 2015 [22 favorites]
But three times now, as a lone woman, I've been hiking/backpacking and had drones circle around where I was. That scared the hell out of me. And being out in public land, like in a wilderness area, and have a drone fly up just as you're sitting down to wildlife watch is a very irritating experience - for both people and the wildlife.
Issues like that have led to the banning of drones in National Parks, but that hasn't stopped some stupid shit, like someone crashing their drone into Yellowstone's Grand Prismatic Spring.
posted by barchan at 4:06 PM on October 19, 2015 [22 favorites]
Require drones to broadcast their ID and GPS coordinates. Doesn't have to be anything complicated. Short range, low bandwidth much like a key fob.
posted by JackFlash at 4:08 PM on October 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by JackFlash at 4:08 PM on October 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
I will second frumiousb's comment about the alarming *lack* of current legislation. Though I certainly don't want draconian or overly-restrictive laws on an exciting new technology, I'm pleased to see steps being taken to regulate.
I live in Canada, and was recently on a rooftop patio of a new restaurant over which a fellow was flying a large drone with multiple cameras. In addition to being really, really loud and kinda shitting on everyone's conversation, he was also flying it low to get cool angles, and I kept thinking "if he loses control, which way do I have to duck to not be seriously injured". The bar staff were really displeased, but it wasn't clear what could be done.
Several people joked about throwing things at it - but seriously, what the hell?! It's clearly not ok to drive a massive RC car with a GoPro inside a restaurant. I think our notions and regulations re: airspace need to evolve as flying technologies increase in urban areas
posted by AAALASTAIR at 4:12 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
I live in Canada, and was recently on a rooftop patio of a new restaurant over which a fellow was flying a large drone with multiple cameras. In addition to being really, really loud and kinda shitting on everyone's conversation, he was also flying it low to get cool angles, and I kept thinking "if he loses control, which way do I have to duck to not be seriously injured". The bar staff were really displeased, but it wasn't clear what could be done.
Several people joked about throwing things at it - but seriously, what the hell?! It's clearly not ok to drive a massive RC car with a GoPro inside a restaurant. I think our notions and regulations re: airspace need to evolve as flying technologies increase in urban areas
posted by AAALASTAIR at 4:12 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Why is it wrong to have drone registration, when we have registration for cars, as well as other aircraft?
posted by SansPoint at 4:16 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by SansPoint at 4:16 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm totally OK with some way to connect R/C and/or autonomous machines with their owners.
I'm skeptical about the timeline though.
Holiday season? That's already started.
The government is going to get an entire registration system, including frontend/backend software, retailer training and suitable penalties by Black Friday?
Seems pretty unlikely.
posted by madajb at 4:16 PM on October 19, 2015
I'm skeptical about the timeline though.
Holiday season? That's already started.
The government is going to get an entire registration system, including frontend/backend software, retailer training and suitable penalties by Black Friday?
Seems pretty unlikely.
posted by madajb at 4:16 PM on October 19, 2015
The bar staff were really displeased, but it wasn't clear what could be done.
In the US, the answer is pretty obvious: you shoot it down with birdshot.
posted by GuyZero at 4:31 PM on October 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
In the US, the answer is pretty obvious: you shoot it down with birdshot.
posted by GuyZero at 4:31 PM on October 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
Battelle is on the job. They've developed the DroneDefender, a man-portable directional signal jammer. Well, really, an RF rifle is what it is, and they say it should jam common frequencies for signalling the drone, as well as causing it to lose its GPS fix. Smarter drones would keep flying, they just wouldn't know where to go. Dumber RC quadcopters would probably fall out of the sky or get stuck in some directional command.
It won't prevent injury, since drones' failure mode is still falling out of the sky, often with some lateral velocity, but it can mean that a drone-based attack misses its target, a drone-based camera user will lose their high-quality peeping footage forever, and depending on impact, maybe the drone too.
posted by Sunburnt at 4:36 PM on October 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
It won't prevent injury, since drones' failure mode is still falling out of the sky, often with some lateral velocity, but it can mean that a drone-based attack misses its target, a drone-based camera user will lose their high-quality peeping footage forever, and depending on impact, maybe the drone too.
posted by Sunburnt at 4:36 PM on October 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
Rotating blades, public parks and open space, small children playing.
What could possibly go wrong?
posted by buzzman at 4:39 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
What could possibly go wrong?
posted by buzzman at 4:39 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
But three times now, as a lone woman, I've been hiking/backpacking and had drones circle around where I was. That scared the hell out of me.
How good is your rock-throwing aim?
posted by artdrectr at 4:39 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
How good is your rock-throwing aim?
posted by artdrectr at 4:39 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
> Why is it wrong to have drone registration, when we have registration for cars, as well as other aircraft?
Public spaces only, please. Drones, like cars, used on private property with owners' permission should not require registration.
posted by Sunburnt at 4:41 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
Public spaces only, please. Drones, like cars, used on private property with owners' permission should not require registration.
posted by Sunburnt at 4:41 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
They've developed the DroneDefender, a man-portable directional signal jammer.
See now, this just sounds like a recipe for disaster-- in a complex and mostly vertical airspace I really don't want irritated people being able to bring drones out of the sky. (As tempted as I might be myself.)
posted by frumiousb at 4:41 PM on October 19, 2015
See now, this just sounds like a recipe for disaster-- in a complex and mostly vertical airspace I really don't want irritated people being able to bring drones out of the sky. (As tempted as I might be myself.)
posted by frumiousb at 4:41 PM on October 19, 2015
Of course all you'd have to do is strap a gun to a drone and you have an unregulateable firearm.
posted by dirigibleman at 4:42 PM on October 19, 2015
posted by dirigibleman at 4:42 PM on October 19, 2015
[DroneDefender]
> See now, this just sounds like a recipe for disaster
I doubt we'll see this in the hands of civilians, since the FCC has never been enthused about hoi polloi possessing signal jammers. If they were allowed, I'd never get into a car without one. Drive near me, and your cellphone hangs up.
posted by Sunburnt at 4:44 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
> See now, this just sounds like a recipe for disaster
I doubt we'll see this in the hands of civilians, since the FCC has never been enthused about hoi polloi possessing signal jammers. If they were allowed, I'd never get into a car without one. Drive near me, and your cellphone hangs up.
posted by Sunburnt at 4:44 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
Honestly, I would love to be able to accesss a public registry to find out if the random drone I see over my neighborhood -- or workplace, or at the beach where I'm trying to relax, or at the park where I'm also trying to relax -- is owned by a person, by the armed forces, or by a private company, and what exactly its purpose it. If a drone in my area isn't publically registered, I'd like to be able to make it go away.
It's too bad if it interferes with a fun afternoon for somebody, or some guy's photography business, but I really don't want it to be too easy for random college students, "disruptive" businesses, or angry anybody, to drop stuff / invade my privacy.
posted by amtho at 4:50 PM on October 19, 2015
It's too bad if it interferes with a fun afternoon for somebody, or some guy's photography business, but I really don't want it to be too easy for random college students, "disruptive" businesses, or angry anybody, to drop stuff / invade my privacy.
posted by amtho at 4:50 PM on October 19, 2015
Of course, it would be even nicer if random drones couldn't come into the space over my home, neighborhood, or my town's public space without permission first. I realize there are issues with this, but why not make the hurdles _now_ before people start building their livlihoods on the assumption that they can go anywhere they want with a drone?
posted by amtho at 4:53 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by amtho at 4:53 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
IF TACOCOPTERS MUST BE LICENSED THEN ONLY THE LICENTIOUS WILL HAVE TACOCOPTERS!
posted by XMLicious at 5:02 PM on October 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by XMLicious at 5:02 PM on October 19, 2015 [5 favorites]
"Honestly, I would love to be able to accesss a public registry to find out if the random drone I see over my neighborhood -- or workplace, or at the beach where I'm trying to relax, or at the park where I'm also trying to relax -- is owned by a person, by the armed forces, or by a private company, and what exactly its purpose it. "
But how would you do that? You'd need to capture it first and then find the serial number and then look it up in the database. Having a registry won't really help identify drones that are in the air. It'll only help identify drones that crashland somewhere.
posted by I-baLL at 5:06 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
But how would you do that? You'd need to capture it first and then find the serial number and then look it up in the database. Having a registry won't really help identify drones that are in the air. It'll only help identify drones that crashland somewhere.
posted by I-baLL at 5:06 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
I used to live next door to a production company in LA, and there was a guy who would fly his drone in the parking lot EVERY DAY until one of us would go out and yell at him for it. I hated it so much. I hated that he had a camera that could look in my windows - which he did, as he took artsy flyby shots of my apartment. I hated the fact that it sounded like someone running a high-pitched lawnmower outside my window. And I REALLY hated the fact that I never knew when to expect my privacy and peace of mind to be violated by the camera and irritating noise, because it could happen any time, for as long as he wanted, and I had relatively little control over this.
I am so, so 100% on board with any and all restrictions people would like to place on drone use, because I think unless you've had to deal with one it can be hard to imagine just how much they can invade and mess with other peoples' personal space.
posted by teponaztli at 5:06 PM on October 19, 2015 [23 favorites]
I am so, so 100% on board with any and all restrictions people would like to place on drone use, because I think unless you've had to deal with one it can be hard to imagine just how much they can invade and mess with other peoples' personal space.
posted by teponaztli at 5:06 PM on October 19, 2015 [23 favorites]
You'd need to capture it first and then find the serial number and then look it up in the database. Having a registry won't really help identify drones that are in the air.
That is why they should require that drones broadcast their ID as I described above. Same as airplanes do in controlled airspace.
posted by JackFlash at 5:09 PM on October 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
That is why they should require that drones broadcast their ID as I described above. Same as airplanes do in controlled airspace.
posted by JackFlash at 5:09 PM on October 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
Consider this event from earlier this year where a drone fell out of the sky and knocked a woman unconscious at Seattle's Pride Parade. The drone operator wasn't found at the scene but later turned himself in to police. However, if he didn't turn himself in, I think it probably would have been pretty tough to find him.
The parallels to car registration and driver licensing are not inapt. If I recall correctly, the reason why registration and licensing were instituted for cars was because people kept crashing their cars into stuff and people and then zooming away.
posted by mhum at 5:15 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
The parallels to car registration and driver licensing are not inapt. If I recall correctly, the reason why registration and licensing were instituted for cars was because people kept crashing their cars into stuff and people and then zooming away.
posted by mhum at 5:15 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Mod note: Couple of comments deleted; maybe let's not continue on the "I wish we could implement gun control" line; it's too juicy a derail.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 5:19 PM on October 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 5:19 PM on October 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
How good is your rock-throwing aim?
Heh, it's excellent, and I've thought about it. But the real problem isn't the drone. It's the drone operator. And if they're the kind of person to zoom around me like that, what are they going to try to do to me if I killed their drone?
posted by barchan at 5:23 PM on October 19, 2015 [18 favorites]
Heh, it's excellent, and I've thought about it. But the real problem isn't the drone. It's the drone operator. And if they're the kind of person to zoom around me like that, what are they going to try to do to me if I killed their drone?
posted by barchan at 5:23 PM on October 19, 2015 [18 favorites]
I wonder how long it will be before someone connects "I hate drones" to "Don't high powered laser pointers really mess with aircraft?"
posted by Mitrovarr at 5:23 PM on October 19, 2015
posted by Mitrovarr at 5:23 PM on October 19, 2015
Battelle is on the job. They've developed the DroneDefender, a man-portable directional signal jammer. Well, really, an RF rifle is what it is, and they say it should jam common frequencies for signalling the drone, as well as causing it to lose its GPS fix. Smarter drones would keep flying, they just wouldn't know where to go. Dumber RC quadcopters would probably fall out of the sky or get stuck in some directional command.
Smartest drones continue unaffected, as they are EM hardened and designed to operate in GPS-denied environments. Mostly, those are just design requirements for the military right now, but it's probably within the reach of a commerical venture if properly motivated.
posted by indubitable at 5:24 PM on October 19, 2015
Smartest drones continue unaffected, as they are EM hardened and designed to operate in GPS-denied environments. Mostly, those are just design requirements for the military right now, but it's probably within the reach of a commerical venture if properly motivated.
posted by indubitable at 5:24 PM on October 19, 2015
A knucklehead in Connecticut is making money off a video of his gun-firing drone" in flight.
posted by etaoin at 5:25 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by etaoin at 5:25 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
what are they going to try to do to me if I killed their drone?
Sue you and win, and/or have you arrested.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:26 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Sue you and win, and/or have you arrested.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:26 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Let's use these regulations to disallow military drones too, while we're at it.
posted by Ragini at 5:26 PM on October 19, 2015
posted by Ragini at 5:26 PM on October 19, 2015
Illegal 4-Foot Drone Shut Down Aerial Firefight Over Lake Fire: Forest Service. There are some legitimate issues.
This is why we need registration: to identify drone owners like this in order to sacrifice them to R'hllor. Once appeased, the fire god will stop the wildfire.
posted by homunculus at 5:30 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
This is why we need registration: to identify drone owners like this in order to sacrifice them to R'hllor. Once appeased, the fire god will stop the wildfire.
posted by homunculus at 5:30 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
Maybe the solution is to buy your own drone and then get all up in their drone's business while they're trying to fly around. Maybe the solution is dronefights.
posted by teponaztli at 5:30 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by teponaztli at 5:30 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
BATTLEBOTS: AIR RAGE
posted by barchan at 5:32 PM on October 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by barchan at 5:32 PM on October 19, 2015 [4 favorites]
Mod note: Another comment deleted; sorry, "gun+drone=Second Amendment hack" has been suggested already, let's not go off onto that tangent.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 5:37 PM on October 19, 2015
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 5:37 PM on October 19, 2015
My band was performing at a festival this summer. A camera drone went awry, nearly hit us, and crashed into a store's front window, which fortunately didn't break.
Americans, as a class, can't be trusted with shit like this.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:38 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
Americans, as a class, can't be trusted with shit like this.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:38 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
On the plus side, I bet "band gets hit by drone" would have made a pretty good viral video.
posted by teponaztli at 5:40 PM on October 19, 2015
posted by teponaztli at 5:40 PM on October 19, 2015
Unless it's the kind that would have hurt you, in which case that would be less funny.
posted by teponaztli at 5:42 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by teponaztli at 5:42 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
"That is why they should require that drones broadcast their ID as I described above. Same as airplanes do in controlled airspace."
I think that's unrealistic. Above you mentioned that they'll need to broadcast their ID and GPS coordinates but that requires extra equipment, more batteries, etc.
I guess this leads us to the question of what drones will this apply to. Like, will a normal $20 drone with a flight time of 10 minutes need to be registered? Or will this only apply to drones above a certain weight and power level? Because it seems nonsensical to me to have to register tiny 4 ounce drone since it weighs pretty much what a foam toy plane weighs. Anyways, don't know if this was posted in a comment above but here's the actual DOT announcement:
https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/us-transportation-secretary-anthony-foxx-announces-unmanned-aircraft-registration
posted by I-baLL at 5:43 PM on October 19, 2015
I think that's unrealistic. Above you mentioned that they'll need to broadcast their ID and GPS coordinates but that requires extra equipment, more batteries, etc.
I guess this leads us to the question of what drones will this apply to. Like, will a normal $20 drone with a flight time of 10 minutes need to be registered? Or will this only apply to drones above a certain weight and power level? Because it seems nonsensical to me to have to register tiny 4 ounce drone since it weighs pretty much what a foam toy plane weighs. Anyways, don't know if this was posted in a comment above but here's the actual DOT announcement:
https://www.transportation.gov/briefing-room/us-transportation-secretary-anthony-foxx-announces-unmanned-aircraft-registration
posted by I-baLL at 5:43 PM on October 19, 2015
Eh, that should say "I think that's unrealistic for most small drones". Since the extra equipment will prevent them from flying due to the extra weight and battery usage.
posted by I-baLL at 5:45 PM on October 19, 2015
posted by I-baLL at 5:45 PM on October 19, 2015
What JackFlash said -- the equivalent of RFIDs for drones (above a certain size) would be great. License plates, basically. Ideally, something you could pick up with a smartphone.
No idea if that's possible, though.
posted by uosuaq at 5:51 PM on October 19, 2015
No idea if that's possible, though.
posted by uosuaq at 5:51 PM on October 19, 2015
I guess this leads us to the question of what drones will this apply to.
Right, that's the next step. The FAA announcement is only announcing a "task force" to look at the issue and come up with recommendations by Nov 20th, there's no detail yet. The next step will be that task force issuing a report to the FAA (maybe made public, maybe not) followed by the FAA taking some unknown amount of time to issue a notice of proposed rule making in the Federal Register, at which point will be open to public comments, and finally issuing a final rule laying out exactly whowhatwhenwherehow of registering your drone. Administrative law takes a long time, even if the FAA is trying to fast track it.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:52 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Right, that's the next step. The FAA announcement is only announcing a "task force" to look at the issue and come up with recommendations by Nov 20th, there's no detail yet. The next step will be that task force issuing a report to the FAA (maybe made public, maybe not) followed by the FAA taking some unknown amount of time to issue a notice of proposed rule making in the Federal Register, at which point will be open to public comments, and finally issuing a final rule laying out exactly whowhatwhenwherehow of registering your drone. Administrative law takes a long time, even if the FAA is trying to fast track it.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:52 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Americans, as a class, can't be trusted with shit like this.
In fairness, I don't really think this is an American issue so much as a human issue. The average person, particularly the average untrained person, does not have the skill to fly this kind of thing for any length of time without incident. For point of comparison, RC planes have been around for a long time, and it's basically a truism that the first time you hand someone the controls to an RC plane, they are going to crash it -- and so also the second time, the third time, etc. Obviously, drones can be made a lot more easily accessible than RC planes, yes (due to hovering and software assist), but it's still the same kind of problem.
And, to be clear: I think drones are very neat, and I'm super excited about their potential, particularly when it comes to filmmaking and photography. Nonetheless, I feel really strongly that any drones that weigh enough (or go fast enough) to be a real danger to human life or property need some sane regulation around them, and they need it yesterday. The wild west that currently exists is already concerning, and the prospect of what it could look like a couple years from now with no regulation is downright frightening.
posted by tocts at 6:00 PM on October 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
In fairness, I don't really think this is an American issue so much as a human issue. The average person, particularly the average untrained person, does not have the skill to fly this kind of thing for any length of time without incident. For point of comparison, RC planes have been around for a long time, and it's basically a truism that the first time you hand someone the controls to an RC plane, they are going to crash it -- and so also the second time, the third time, etc. Obviously, drones can be made a lot more easily accessible than RC planes, yes (due to hovering and software assist), but it's still the same kind of problem.
And, to be clear: I think drones are very neat, and I'm super excited about their potential, particularly when it comes to filmmaking and photography. Nonetheless, I feel really strongly that any drones that weigh enough (or go fast enough) to be a real danger to human life or property need some sane regulation around them, and they need it yesterday. The wild west that currently exists is already concerning, and the prospect of what it could look like a couple years from now with no regulation is downright frightening.
posted by tocts at 6:00 PM on October 19, 2015 [7 favorites]
(small side note: This fpp is tagged with "drone" but not with "drones". Maybe that tag should be added as well?)
posted by I-baLL at 6:01 PM on October 19, 2015
posted by I-baLL at 6:01 PM on October 19, 2015
But how would you do that?
Assuming there is only one drone in the area at a time, I'd just look up whether _any_ drones were expected in the area. If not, I'd contact... the police, the air force, somebody.
posted by amtho at 6:02 PM on October 19, 2015
Assuming there is only one drone in the area at a time, I'd just look up whether _any_ drones were expected in the area. If not, I'd contact... the police, the air force, somebody.
posted by amtho at 6:02 PM on October 19, 2015
I would totally buy a flag that said "Dron't tread on me," except that wouldn't make any sense because drones don't really tread on anything.
posted by teponaztli at 6:08 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by teponaztli at 6:08 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
They've developed the DroneDefender, a man-portable directional signal jammer.
That's ... all sorts of illegal. The FCC is never going to, if you'll pardon the pun, let that fly.
So of course they're making it for military and law enforcement use.
posted by Kadin2048 at 6:09 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
That's ... all sorts of illegal. The FCC is never going to, if you'll pardon the pun, let that fly.
So of course they're making it for military and law enforcement use.
posted by Kadin2048 at 6:09 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
I hear you barchan, there's this creepy guy that brings his drone down to the canal and has it fly all around the marina, it's peeking in all the windows on my boat, my galley, my head, my bedroom. I climbed ashore and and asked him to stop, asked him about questions of privacy, and he just smirked at me. I've got a sling shot, and I'm just so tempted to take his drone out.
But I figured something like T.D. Strange's link would ensue.
This guy is NOT shooting prosumer video, he's just being a total peeping tom. I mean, what is a person's recourse? He gets a lot of folks on shore, walking up and following him around, asking questions, and you can tell he thrives on the attention.
And the drone he's flying must have some awesome stabilization software, because he wasn't using what I would call a lot of skill on the remote, it was just an ipad mini, and he just dragged his finger around, and boy howdy it was windy the last time he was there, and the drone was rock solid without much apparent input from the operator.
Anyway, it's an issue, and one that I guess will have to be addressed. But man, I really want to use my sling shot.
I cannot believe if I called the cops on this guy they would be able to grasp what was going on, it's like the twitter-stalking gamergate syndrome.
I guess sometimes you just have to put up with the creeps who use technology before the law catches up with them. It sucks.
posted by valkane at 6:16 PM on October 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
But I figured something like T.D. Strange's link would ensue.
This guy is NOT shooting prosumer video, he's just being a total peeping tom. I mean, what is a person's recourse? He gets a lot of folks on shore, walking up and following him around, asking questions, and you can tell he thrives on the attention.
And the drone he's flying must have some awesome stabilization software, because he wasn't using what I would call a lot of skill on the remote, it was just an ipad mini, and he just dragged his finger around, and boy howdy it was windy the last time he was there, and the drone was rock solid without much apparent input from the operator.
Anyway, it's an issue, and one that I guess will have to be addressed. But man, I really want to use my sling shot.
I cannot believe if I called the cops on this guy they would be able to grasp what was going on, it's like the twitter-stalking gamergate syndrome.
I guess sometimes you just have to put up with the creeps who use technology before the law catches up with them. It sucks.
posted by valkane at 6:16 PM on October 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
Net launcher with high speed take up retrieval line should be ok though and a lot safer.
posted by Mitheral at 6:19 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Mitheral at 6:19 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
That's awful, valkane. I got all excited about JackFlash's idea above, and then I thought, it's hard enough when it comes to street harassment, how hard will it be to report drone harassment?
posted by barchan at 6:23 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by barchan at 6:23 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
"Assuming there is only one drone in the area at a time, I'd just look up whether _any_ drones were expected in the area. If not, I'd contact... the police, the air force, somebody."
That would require a database of where every drone is expected to be which is weird. It's like having to say where you'll be driving your car every time you go driving. And if you want live updates that means you'll need every drone to not only have gps but also an active connection to the internet.
posted by I-baLL at 6:31 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
That would require a database of where every drone is expected to be which is weird. It's like having to say where you'll be driving your car every time you go driving. And if you want live updates that means you'll need every drone to not only have gps but also an active connection to the internet.
posted by I-baLL at 6:31 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Anyway, it's an issue, and one that I guess will have to be addressed. But man, I really want to use my sling shot.
SuperSoaker. Dude has his toy by the canal, should expect for it to get wet.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:32 PM on October 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
SuperSoaker. Dude has his toy by the canal, should expect for it to get wet.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:32 PM on October 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
SuperSoaker. Dude has his toy by the canal, should expect for it to get wet.
The whole problem is if you destroy or damage it, he will sue you for the value and win. In the eyes of the current law, it's just like saying, "that guy parked too close to my door, so I keyed the crap out of his car". That doesn't work.
Now it might be different if you have him caught filming in your window while you're inside the house (or cabin, houseboat, whatev), or over your back yard, then there's the argument that you have a reasonable expectation of privacy, and age old peeping laws. But on the beach, or at the marina, or anywhere in public, destroying private property is just going to end badly for you, and those fancy ones with stabilization software, iphone control and gimbaled cameras start at about $1000 and go up quickly.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:39 PM on October 19, 2015
The whole problem is if you destroy or damage it, he will sue you for the value and win. In the eyes of the current law, it's just like saying, "that guy parked too close to my door, so I keyed the crap out of his car". That doesn't work.
Now it might be different if you have him caught filming in your window while you're inside the house (or cabin, houseboat, whatev), or over your back yard, then there's the argument that you have a reasonable expectation of privacy, and age old peeping laws. But on the beach, or at the marina, or anywhere in public, destroying private property is just going to end badly for you, and those fancy ones with stabilization software, iphone control and gimbaled cameras start at about $1000 and go up quickly.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:39 PM on October 19, 2015
Yeah, that's the thing. This guy told me his was like three grand, and in my minds eye, or whatever, I just see him having video of me firing away at his expensive toy.
posted by valkane at 6:43 PM on October 19, 2015
posted by valkane at 6:43 PM on October 19, 2015
If he's flying over the boat and close enough to the windows then he's technically trespassing. If he has a camera then you can just say "You're trespassing on my property" and throw a net on the drone. If he sues and ends up using the video in court then he'll be owning up to trespassing and thus you're in your right to stop him from trespassing by disabling his drone.
posted by I-baLL at 6:43 PM on October 19, 2015
posted by I-baLL at 6:43 PM on October 19, 2015
(I'm not a lawyer though so, uh, yeah.)
posted by I-baLL at 6:43 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by I-baLL at 6:43 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
Wait until the drone is looking at something else and then take it down with a paintball gun.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:47 PM on October 19, 2015
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:47 PM on October 19, 2015
Woman Beats Up A Minor Over A Drone, Gets Mere Probation
posted by rustcrumb at 6:48 PM on October 19, 2015
posted by rustcrumb at 6:48 PM on October 19, 2015
If he's really looking in the bathroom windows, your best bet is to film him doing it back and take that to the police. At that point he's not filming in public, he's violating peeping tom laws. You do (should?) have an expectation of privacy in your own home (boat), that's not what Im saying (subject to the vagaries of the legal system and your state of course, IAAL, IANA drone lawyer). Im saying no one should see someone using a drone in a public place (even a beach) and have the response that, "Oh no he didn't film me, I'm gonna end that drone" and think it's going to work out.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:49 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:49 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Public spaces only, please. Drones, like cars, used on private property with owners' permission should not require registration.
Does your property right extend up to the edge of the atmosphere? Or is there a ceiling on how many feet up you could claim to be on "your property"? This is part of the drone problem. You're not just disturbing sound/sight on your property, but everyone else is being startled/annoyed/peeped at by your loud-ass toy once it gets high enough, unless you live in the middle of nowhere.
I hate the creepers, the wildlife-scarers and the general assholishness of most private drone operators and I want it to be illegal to sell a drone (or run one) without a license and ID that can be pinged/read from the ground. Anywhere. Those with legitmate uses (making movies, doing surveys, allowed recreation) would be fine. Those being assholes could be caught.
If you have an unregistered drone and someone swats it down (would a net-shooting gun of some kind work? That would be satisfying), then you should be the one getting in trouble. Mere self-defense.
posted by emjaybee at 6:55 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
Does your property right extend up to the edge of the atmosphere? Or is there a ceiling on how many feet up you could claim to be on "your property"? This is part of the drone problem. You're not just disturbing sound/sight on your property, but everyone else is being startled/annoyed/peeped at by your loud-ass toy once it gets high enough, unless you live in the middle of nowhere.
I hate the creepers, the wildlife-scarers and the general assholishness of most private drone operators and I want it to be illegal to sell a drone (or run one) without a license and ID that can be pinged/read from the ground. Anywhere. Those with legitmate uses (making movies, doing surveys, allowed recreation) would be fine. Those being assholes could be caught.
If you have an unregistered drone and someone swats it down (would a net-shooting gun of some kind work? That would be satisfying), then you should be the one getting in trouble. Mere self-defense.
posted by emjaybee at 6:55 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yeah, that's the thing. This guy told me his was like three grand, and in my minds eye, or whatever, I just see him having video of me firing away at his expensive toy.
It's a two man operation. One on the shore walks up to the guy and peppers him with questions about the control software in particular, drawing his attention to the questioner and the iPad. The other takes a heavy towel, tosses it over the drone, puts the damn thing in the trunk of a car, and drives it out to the country where it "lives happily ever after." The decoy then says, "hey, where'd it go?" and wanders off.
posted by Existential Dread at 6:58 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
It's a two man operation. One on the shore walks up to the guy and peppers him with questions about the control software in particular, drawing his attention to the questioner and the iPad. The other takes a heavy towel, tosses it over the drone, puts the damn thing in the trunk of a car, and drives it out to the country where it "lives happily ever after." The decoy then says, "hey, where'd it go?" and wanders off.
posted by Existential Dread at 6:58 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
Does the phrase "muzzle signature" ring any bells with you guys?
But seriously, no, T.D. Strange, I wouldn't think of actually taking this guys drone out, nor do I have the time or patience to rig up a camera to get shots of his camera snooping on me. It's just an annoyance. My real point, and what I was commiserating with barchan about is these 21st century peeping toms enjoying their moment. It does tend to boil the blood a bit, though.
A side note, google streetview was here on the canal the other day, getting shots of the local tour boat (Colonial Belle) going under our famous lift bridge (it's in Ripley's for goshsakes). They were using a drone (surprise!) but they kept it way up high shooting what I am sure was superlative video. But I was still struck by how alien these devices are, watching it hover over the bridge in the manner of some hyper-intelligent insect/intelligence gathering device/gun platform. It was a Bill Gibson moment.
Maybe I just got dronephobia.
posted by valkane at 7:00 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
But seriously, no, T.D. Strange, I wouldn't think of actually taking this guys drone out, nor do I have the time or patience to rig up a camera to get shots of his camera snooping on me. It's just an annoyance. My real point, and what I was commiserating with barchan about is these 21st century peeping toms enjoying their moment. It does tend to boil the blood a bit, though.
A side note, google streetview was here on the canal the other day, getting shots of the local tour boat (Colonial Belle) going under our famous lift bridge (it's in Ripley's for goshsakes). They were using a drone (surprise!) but they kept it way up high shooting what I am sure was superlative video. But I was still struck by how alien these devices are, watching it hover over the bridge in the manner of some hyper-intelligent insect/intelligence gathering device/gun platform. It was a Bill Gibson moment.
Maybe I just got dronephobia.
posted by valkane at 7:00 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
the wildlife-scarers
Are drones covered by vehicle-use laws in parks and public land? We already have restrictions on vehicle use in these places (which of course makes the NPS and BLM enemies of Libertarians everywhere, but whatever). I see no reason why we shouldn't extend those to unmanned vehicles. It wouldn't cover everywhere, but at least it would be a start.
posted by teponaztli at 7:03 PM on October 19, 2015
Are drones covered by vehicle-use laws in parks and public land? We already have restrictions on vehicle use in these places (which of course makes the NPS and BLM enemies of Libertarians everywhere, but whatever). I see no reason why we shouldn't extend those to unmanned vehicles. It wouldn't cover everywhere, but at least it would be a start.
posted by teponaztli at 7:03 PM on October 19, 2015
Maybe I just got dronephobia.
I don't blame you. After spotting the drone outside my window, I made the mistake of spending some time on YouTube finding if Peeping Tom videos are really a thing. I had to wash my brain after that. "Rc DrOnE fLiEs OvEr NuDe BeAcH, and gets chased out" and "Drone trolling naked milf" to name a few. And if you read the descriptions, many of them either show the person trying to attack the thing or contain a LoL description about how someone tried to complain.
I know there are reputable honest drone hobbyists out there-- many of them-- but it was really honestly not nice to look out my window in the morning and see a drone hanging there filming me in my bathrobe. It made me angry and insecure and hurt and I didn't find it one little bit funny. And I don't think I should need to keep my curtains closed while I'm having breakfast either.
posted by frumiousb at 7:10 PM on October 19, 2015 [12 favorites]
I don't blame you. After spotting the drone outside my window, I made the mistake of spending some time on YouTube finding if Peeping Tom videos are really a thing. I had to wash my brain after that. "Rc DrOnE fLiEs OvEr NuDe BeAcH, and gets chased out" and "Drone trolling naked milf" to name a few. And if you read the descriptions, many of them either show the person trying to attack the thing or contain a LoL description about how someone tried to complain.
I know there are reputable honest drone hobbyists out there-- many of them-- but it was really honestly not nice to look out my window in the morning and see a drone hanging there filming me in my bathrobe. It made me angry and insecure and hurt and I didn't find it one little bit funny. And I don't think I should need to keep my curtains closed while I'm having breakfast either.
posted by frumiousb at 7:10 PM on October 19, 2015 [12 favorites]
GuyZero: “Registration could begin as soon as the holiday season, DOT officials said Monday.”Maybe visible registration numbers work for DJI Phantoms and drones that size and larger, but what about the palm sized machines? Even if they're capable of swarming? Or are just super cheap? Or even smaller and cheaper?
I feel like, to paraphrase Chandler Bing, "The can is open! The worms are everyhwere!"
posted by ob1quixote at 7:12 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
> Or is there a ceiling on how many feet up you could claim to be on "your property"?
83 feet above ground, in fact, thanks to a SCOTUS ruling from the early days of aviation, but I was thinking of the matter of the footprint onto which it would fall during operation. There already exist laws for noise disturbances, and those can apply to flying lawnmowers just as easily as the grounded versions.
The FAA regulates above 500 feet for certain, though they claim they can regulate drones in between 83 and 500 feet by policy. I think that's FUD that wouldn't stand up in court, but I'm not a lawyer for good reasons.
On a side note, I like the transponder idea in principle, but just what the hell do you intend to use to interrogate a drone flying overhead? I don't think phone radio technology is broad enough that there will be an app for that.
posted by Sunburnt at 7:12 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
83 feet above ground, in fact, thanks to a SCOTUS ruling from the early days of aviation, but I was thinking of the matter of the footprint onto which it would fall during operation. There already exist laws for noise disturbances, and those can apply to flying lawnmowers just as easily as the grounded versions.
The FAA regulates above 500 feet for certain, though they claim they can regulate drones in between 83 and 500 feet by policy. I think that's FUD that wouldn't stand up in court, but I'm not a lawyer for good reasons.
On a side note, I like the transponder idea in principle, but just what the hell do you intend to use to interrogate a drone flying overhead? I don't think phone radio technology is broad enough that there will be an app for that.
posted by Sunburnt at 7:12 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
I don't think tort law is settled on the whole drone-destruction question, yet.
The shooter in T. D. Strange's link was charged with creating a public danger and whatnot because yeah, he discharged a weapon within a residential area, which is SUPER frowned upon in most regions.
In terms of personal injury lawsuits, it's not yet clear what counts as reasonable, according to some majority of the juries in the land. If a drone is in my yard filming through my windows? Or encroaching on my personal space when I'm out in a public park or hiking area? I might just take very reasonable measures to ensure my safety. Sadly, as a white woman of middle age and middle class, I imagine I'd have a good chance of convincing some jury that the drone had to die.
posted by allthinky at 7:23 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
The shooter in T. D. Strange's link was charged with creating a public danger and whatnot because yeah, he discharged a weapon within a residential area, which is SUPER frowned upon in most regions.
In terms of personal injury lawsuits, it's not yet clear what counts as reasonable, according to some majority of the juries in the land. If a drone is in my yard filming through my windows? Or encroaching on my personal space when I'm out in a public park or hiking area? I might just take very reasonable measures to ensure my safety. Sadly, as a white woman of middle age and middle class, I imagine I'd have a good chance of convincing some jury that the drone had to die.
posted by allthinky at 7:23 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
Don't worry, soon enough the danger won't be from them crashing on you, it will be from inhaling too many of them.
posted by sexyrobot at 7:40 PM on October 19, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by sexyrobot at 7:40 PM on October 19, 2015 [10 favorites]
On a transponder note, a radio transponder may be difficult to deal with since nobody would be equipped to read them except the cops, assuming they had the budget and the wherewithal, but a coded flashing light would work, and would probably be readable in the phone's camera. Google, do this thing! Such a transponder would also be useful in the smart cameras that film the Red Bull Stunt Drone series that'll exist by then, and whatever other drone sports they dream up. (Science fiction of the 1980s took it for granted, pretty frequently, that eventually human athletes will be replaced by machines. Anyone who disagrees is hereby challenged to game of Cyberball 2072.)
What I'd like to see is an intruding drone be something that can cause its owner (intentless or not, I'm not sure) to be charged with Trespassing, and the owner would be identified with the coded flashing.
Hey, someone covered the flashing beacons with electrical tape? Now that, my friends, is what I call "fair game:" an intentional foiling of that system should immunize anyone from any damages to the drone while taking legal, safe action to shoot the bloomin' thing down.
Now, I just need to get a netgun that runs inside my android phone... I'm sure the Galaxy S9 will have that feature.
posted by Sunburnt at 7:55 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
What I'd like to see is an intruding drone be something that can cause its owner (intentless or not, I'm not sure) to be charged with Trespassing, and the owner would be identified with the coded flashing.
Hey, someone covered the flashing beacons with electrical tape? Now that, my friends, is what I call "fair game:" an intentional foiling of that system should immunize anyone from any damages to the drone while taking legal, safe action to shoot the bloomin' thing down.
Now, I just need to get a netgun that runs inside my android phone... I'm sure the Galaxy S9 will have that feature.
posted by Sunburnt at 7:55 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
More on that 83 feet of airspace: United States vs. Causby, from 1946. Army Air Corps aircraft on final approach to a nearby runway were scaring Causby's chickens badly enough that they were killing themselves by bashing into the walls of their coops.
NPR's Planet Money podcast has an episode on the topic: Drone Wars: Who Owns The Air?
(It's 25.3m, if metric's your thing.)
posted by Sunburnt at 8:05 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
NPR's Planet Money podcast has an episode on the topic: Drone Wars: Who Owns The Air?
(It's 25.3m, if metric's your thing.)
posted by Sunburnt at 8:05 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
"That is why they should require that drones broadcast their ID as I described above. Same as airplanes do in controlled airspace."
I think that's unrealistic. Above you mentioned that they'll need to broadcast their ID and GPS coordinates but that requires extra equipment, more batteries, etc.
No, it isn't unrealistic. People aren't worried about the little children's toys in your backyard. They are worried about drones with cameras. Virtually every drone over one pound that can carry a GoPro has built-in GPS and a transmitter streaming megabits of video. To add the capability of transmitting ID and GPS data is trivial. Think of the little transmitter in your key fob.
A receiver could be a $20 device the size of an iPod nano that does nothing but capture and display the IDs of drones in the vicinity, say a few hundred feet. That's cheap enough that anyone interested could have one. At any public gathering of any size you might expect at least a couple people to have them.
posted by JackFlash at 8:26 PM on October 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
I think that's unrealistic. Above you mentioned that they'll need to broadcast their ID and GPS coordinates but that requires extra equipment, more batteries, etc.
No, it isn't unrealistic. People aren't worried about the little children's toys in your backyard. They are worried about drones with cameras. Virtually every drone over one pound that can carry a GoPro has built-in GPS and a transmitter streaming megabits of video. To add the capability of transmitting ID and GPS data is trivial. Think of the little transmitter in your key fob.
A receiver could be a $20 device the size of an iPod nano that does nothing but capture and display the IDs of drones in the vicinity, say a few hundred feet. That's cheap enough that anyone interested could have one. At any public gathering of any size you might expect at least a couple people to have them.
posted by JackFlash at 8:26 PM on October 19, 2015 [6 favorites]
Australia, of course, has laws around drones and I, of course, am going to tell you about them.
You make money from your drone? You need a commercial licence for general operation, and a location-specific licence for every time you want to fly for commercial purposes. You need to lodge flight plans and all that biz. Violations of commercial drone flying rules are punished with licence loss, and that’s a big deal.
You fly your drone for fun only? Don’t want to face an $8500 fine for each offence? Then don’t fly within 30m of people, or buildings that are not on your own property, stay under 400 feet altitude, don’t fly over groups of people such as beaches, crowds, protests etc, always keep your drone in sight, and don’t fly your drone within 5km of a place where planes take off and land.
I retrieved this info from a gizmodo page where the comments under the article are more concerned with imperial vs metric measurements in relation to air space than the legal conditions attached to flying drones. There’s talk of relaxing the commercial licence to exclude drones under 2kg (eg a DJI Phantom with GoPro) meaning commercial uses by commercially licenced operators could be made without all the advanced flight-lodgement rigmarole when using small drones but it hasn’t happened yet.
If you are keen, you can read about the complex and multilayered requirements attached to flying a remotely piloted aircraft system (RPAS) for commercial purposes in Australia here.
posted by Thella at 9:10 PM on October 19, 2015 [16 favorites]
You make money from your drone? You need a commercial licence for general operation, and a location-specific licence for every time you want to fly for commercial purposes. You need to lodge flight plans and all that biz. Violations of commercial drone flying rules are punished with licence loss, and that’s a big deal.
You fly your drone for fun only? Don’t want to face an $8500 fine for each offence? Then don’t fly within 30m of people, or buildings that are not on your own property, stay under 400 feet altitude, don’t fly over groups of people such as beaches, crowds, protests etc, always keep your drone in sight, and don’t fly your drone within 5km of a place where planes take off and land.
I retrieved this info from a gizmodo page where the comments under the article are more concerned with imperial vs metric measurements in relation to air space than the legal conditions attached to flying drones. There’s talk of relaxing the commercial licence to exclude drones under 2kg (eg a DJI Phantom with GoPro) meaning commercial uses by commercially licenced operators could be made without all the advanced flight-lodgement rigmarole when using small drones but it hasn’t happened yet.
If you are keen, you can read about the complex and multilayered requirements attached to flying a remotely piloted aircraft system (RPAS) for commercial purposes in Australia here.
posted by Thella at 9:10 PM on October 19, 2015 [16 favorites]
I am going to be affected by this. Sorry, but I am not OK with having my name and address, and list of what I fly in a publicly accessible database. Every burglar in the country will know there is thousands of dollars worth of FPV equipment in my house just waiting to be stolen. I may as well paint a big target on my door so they can kick it in for the home invasion robbery.
Not to mention the lawsuits from the local neighborhood kook who thought she saw my drone spying on some kids.
That's a huge security issue. Open everything to the public? Sorry but I will just go underground if that happens. I'll take the risk of getting fined rather than getting shot in my own bed so MS13 can get a sweet UAV to drop porn into a prison yard.
posted by smoothvirus at 9:14 PM on October 19, 2015
Not to mention the lawsuits from the local neighborhood kook who thought she saw my drone spying on some kids.
That's a huge security issue. Open everything to the public? Sorry but I will just go underground if that happens. I'll take the risk of getting fined rather than getting shot in my own bed so MS13 can get a sweet UAV to drop porn into a prison yard.
posted by smoothvirus at 9:14 PM on October 19, 2015
Every burglar in the country can walk by any small airport and see the planes just sitting there.
posted by GuyZero at 9:23 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by GuyZero at 9:23 PM on October 19, 2015 [3 favorites]
It probably doesn't have to be publicly accessible, but there needs to be some sort of database so you can't have your drone fall 200' out of the sky onto someone's head and book it. Or drop it into traffic and cause an accident. Or have it fall in the wilderness, short out, and start a forest fire.
And that's not even considering intentional misconduct.
posted by Mitrovarr at 9:25 PM on October 19, 2015
And that's not even considering intentional misconduct.
posted by Mitrovarr at 9:25 PM on October 19, 2015
Last time I checked you can't throw a Cessna 172 into the back of a van and drive off with it.
posted by smoothvirus at 9:35 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by smoothvirus at 9:35 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]
If only there would be a different way to move an airplane... luckily they're all centrally registered.
posted by GuyZero at 9:38 PM on October 19, 2015
posted by GuyZero at 9:38 PM on October 19, 2015
Last time I checked criminals looking to steal targeted folks with money, not hobbyists.
posted by valkane at 9:39 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by valkane at 9:39 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
People will steal anything they think has value and a good many of those have no problem using violence as a means of obtaining it.
I already had people break into my home to steal ham radio equipment. Thieves do target hobbyists. Once was enough.
posted by smoothvirus at 9:42 PM on October 19, 2015
I already had people break into my home to steal ham radio equipment. Thieves do target hobbyists. Once was enough.
posted by smoothvirus at 9:42 PM on October 19, 2015
Oh, but hey, if you have a piece of equipment, even one small enough to fit in a briefcase, that can cause problems in local airspace, don't you think it might make sense that you should be licensed, and that that license should be available for anyone that might be hurt by your travel through said airspace?
Like a license plate. On a car. Or a plane. Or a drone?
Dude, I'm sorry you got ripped off, but it only makes sense that if you use a piece of equipment that might cause damage, you should be publiclly licensed to operate it. No matter how small or how expensive.
I mean, you had to get a ham license, right?
posted by valkane at 10:02 PM on October 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
Like a license plate. On a car. Or a plane. Or a drone?
Dude, I'm sorry you got ripped off, but it only makes sense that if you use a piece of equipment that might cause damage, you should be publiclly licensed to operate it. No matter how small or how expensive.
I mean, you had to get a ham license, right?
posted by valkane at 10:02 PM on October 19, 2015 [11 favorites]
smoothvirus: what do you think of the Australian regulations outlined above? what regulations do you think should be in place? how should people be respond when someone you engages in your hobby violates their privacy and/or stalks them from the air?
I agree that people should be able to fly these things on their own property without government interference, but the moment you have people in public spaces use these things there potential hazards and safety issues. Not to mention violation of privacy issues.
How would you feel if only a government agency had the registration information, and it wasn't publicly available? What if someone had to file a complaint and then the government would investigate if you misused this device?
While I have some sympathy for you not wanting to be a target of thieves, I have greater concern for the public that might have their privacy violated or be in physical danger from people who can't fly their drones.
I have a couple of 'drones', both of them weigh well under a pound, and carry no camera. They are much much safer than a Frisbee. I hope they don't regulated.
posted by el io at 10:08 PM on October 19, 2015
I agree that people should be able to fly these things on their own property without government interference, but the moment you have people in public spaces use these things there potential hazards and safety issues. Not to mention violation of privacy issues.
How would you feel if only a government agency had the registration information, and it wasn't publicly available? What if someone had to file a complaint and then the government would investigate if you misused this device?
While I have some sympathy for you not wanting to be a target of thieves, I have greater concern for the public that might have their privacy violated or be in physical danger from people who can't fly their drones.
I have a couple of 'drones', both of them weigh well under a pound, and carry no camera. They are much much safer than a Frisbee. I hope they don't regulated.
posted by el io at 10:08 PM on October 19, 2015
Licensing I don't have a big problem with. Judging from Secretary Foxx's comments today that isn't going to happen though. They're going to go with the lesser choice and that's registration. I'm not happy about it but we will see how it plays out.
Probably more important than licensing is insurance. I already have it through the Academy of Model Aeronautics.
In case you're wondering pretty much everything I fly is small. The biggest is a plane that probably weighs 8 pounds. The ability of anything I fly to wreak (accidental) havoc is pretty small.
I will also say that I learned to fly real airplanes, as in the ones you sit inside of, before I learned how to fly model ones. So I know how to read aviation charts, and I know areas to avoid when flying models.
Most of the flying I do is at a club field, though I do fly from schools and parks from time to time.
I also do some volunteer work for the Maryland DNR and NOAA. I helped them survey Mallows Bay so they could get the President to declare it as a Marine Preserve. I had to call the control tower at Quantico before I could fly that mission.
posted by smoothvirus at 10:16 PM on October 19, 2015
Probably more important than licensing is insurance. I already have it through the Academy of Model Aeronautics.
In case you're wondering pretty much everything I fly is small. The biggest is a plane that probably weighs 8 pounds. The ability of anything I fly to wreak (accidental) havoc is pretty small.
I will also say that I learned to fly real airplanes, as in the ones you sit inside of, before I learned how to fly model ones. So I know how to read aviation charts, and I know areas to avoid when flying models.
Most of the flying I do is at a club field, though I do fly from schools and parks from time to time.
I also do some volunteer work for the Maryland DNR and NOAA. I helped them survey Mallows Bay so they could get the President to declare it as a Marine Preserve. I had to call the control tower at Quantico before I could fly that mission.
posted by smoothvirus at 10:16 PM on October 19, 2015
The other fault I see with registration is it makes the honest pilots a target for law enforcement.
There have already been incidents of people doing stupid stuff with models that match what I have, including flying over the White House. If I'm in some database I'll probably have the cops knocking on my door if that happens again.
There's already video on YouTube of some yahoo flying a plane up thousands of feet into the air, into the clouds, into Class B airspace, and through the instrument approach to a military airfield. Oh did I mention he was flying from a military base?
The airplane he was flying is the exact same make I own and he was only a few miles from my house when he did it.
posted by smoothvirus at 10:32 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
There have already been incidents of people doing stupid stuff with models that match what I have, including flying over the White House. If I'm in some database I'll probably have the cops knocking on my door if that happens again.
There's already video on YouTube of some yahoo flying a plane up thousands of feet into the air, into the clouds, into Class B airspace, and through the instrument approach to a military airfield. Oh did I mention he was flying from a military base?
The airplane he was flying is the exact same make I own and he was only a few miles from my house when he did it.
posted by smoothvirus at 10:32 PM on October 19, 2015 [1 favorite]
Which is where a visible light transponder scheme would be a win. If the video is good enough identify the model you'd be able to see the transponder flashes.
posted by Mitheral at 10:43 PM on October 19, 2015
posted by Mitheral at 10:43 PM on October 19, 2015
In some ways, having a registration will protect legitimate pilots. If that drone that went flying over the white house was either broadcasting an ID or it was labeled with a big, obvious serial number or something, you would be able to trivially prove your drone was not the drone involved. Right now you can't, and while you probably couldn't be convicted on ownership alone, that doesn't mean law enforcement wouldn't seize it during the investigation or harass you.
posted by Mitrovarr at 10:46 PM on October 19, 2015
posted by Mitrovarr at 10:46 PM on October 19, 2015
Is there any reason that they couldn't broadcast an SSID with a drone serial/registration number? The radio hardware is likely already broadcasting on the 2.4 GHZ band so I don't think it would be too hard to mandate that it has to also broadcast the ID in a format that anyone with a smartphone could check by polling the available wifi networks and looking for the one that says DRONE:63145234 or whatever. It could provide more detailed info for anyone with the right app but making sure the ID number can be read by anyone with a smart phone or laptop would go a long way in making it easy/accessible to access that info if you need to file a report once people know it's as simple as looking under their wifi settings—people being harassed shouldn't have to buy extra hardware just to report it and the radio hardware is already there so why not use it. Is there some technical thing I'm missing?
posted by metaphorever at 10:51 PM on October 19, 2015
posted by metaphorever at 10:51 PM on October 19, 2015
"No, it isn't unrealistic. People aren't worried about the little children's toys in your backyard. They are worried about drones with cameras. Virtually every drone over one pound that can carry a GoPro has built-in GPS and a transmitter streaming megabits of video. To add the capability of transmitting ID and GPS data is trivial. Think of the little transmitter in your key fob."
The keywords are "weighs over one pound". Most people who own drones don't have those drones. They have tiny sub-$40 drones that weigh 100 grams or a few ounces at most and can barely carry a few grams at most. Those are the type of drones that I'm talking about. Putting gps and a transmitter on those is unrealistic since that could double the price and make them unflyable due to the extra weight.
Also, speaking of lights that blink the code, that's a better idea since a lot of even cheap drones come with lights however I can't imagine being able tread those in daylight from a distance. Anyways, I'll wait for the proposed rules to come out. I think they should only base registration (if they go through with it) on the capabilities of a drone. If a drone is superlight, has about 10 minutes of flight time, and can't barely carry anything then I don't see a need for registering those. Now the bigger drones that you can fly around for a while, that can carry stuff and have weight, I can see the reasoning in registering those. However, what actual laws and enforcement that shall come after is something we'll have to wait for and see.
Oh, and I have to say (please don't kill me for this) that this is all totes cyberpunk y'all.
posted by I-baLL at 1:04 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
The keywords are "weighs over one pound". Most people who own drones don't have those drones. They have tiny sub-$40 drones that weigh 100 grams or a few ounces at most and can barely carry a few grams at most. Those are the type of drones that I'm talking about. Putting gps and a transmitter on those is unrealistic since that could double the price and make them unflyable due to the extra weight.
Also, speaking of lights that blink the code, that's a better idea since a lot of even cheap drones come with lights however I can't imagine being able tread those in daylight from a distance. Anyways, I'll wait for the proposed rules to come out. I think they should only base registration (if they go through with it) on the capabilities of a drone. If a drone is superlight, has about 10 minutes of flight time, and can't barely carry anything then I don't see a need for registering those. Now the bigger drones that you can fly around for a while, that can carry stuff and have weight, I can see the reasoning in registering those. However, what actual laws and enforcement that shall come after is something we'll have to wait for and see.
Oh, and I have to say (please don't kill me for this) that this is all totes cyberpunk y'all.
posted by I-baLL at 1:04 AM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Uhm, I'm not sure if anyone thought of this yet but how about instead of building extra stuff into the drone, just require the controller to have an always-on internet connection to work? Force it to continuously update the GPS location from the user's end, then anyone can query any drones around their coordinates. If the net drops for the user make drone go home or land.
posted by yoHighness at 1:57 AM on October 20, 2015
posted by yoHighness at 1:57 AM on October 20, 2015
That would require all drones to have a transmitter, a network connection, and for every drone pilot to have a smartphone with an Internet connection and gps. So I don't think that's realistic.
posted by I-baLL at 4:52 AM on October 20, 2015
posted by I-baLL at 4:52 AM on October 20, 2015
But three times now, as a lone woman, I've been hiking/backpacking and had drones circle around where I was. That scared the hell out of me. And being out in public land, like in a wilderness area, and have a drone fly up just as you're sitting down to wildlife watch is a very irritating experience - for both people and the wildlife.
People are probably mostly flying drones in cities, but I've only encountered them in the outdoors. When it is quiet the buzzing of the rotors is really noticeable, but I imagine that sound could easily escape notice in the city. There are so many good uses for drones, but regulations are going to be based off of the assholes and creepers, which is going to hurt the hobbyists and researchers.
If there started to be a peeping tom problem in my neighborhood, I would probably try to take down the drone with an air rifle, but that would not be an easy shot. It's something I have thought about because I know my wife is not interested in being the centerpiece of some creeper's masturbatory videos, but who wants to live their life impacted by these kinds of concerns? It does make me think twice about visits to wilderness hotsprings and clothing optional beaches, too -- there have always been weirdos who try and take sneak photos, but drones let them do it from a distance and with a lot more ease.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:24 AM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
People are probably mostly flying drones in cities, but I've only encountered them in the outdoors. When it is quiet the buzzing of the rotors is really noticeable, but I imagine that sound could easily escape notice in the city. There are so many good uses for drones, but regulations are going to be based off of the assholes and creepers, which is going to hurt the hobbyists and researchers.
If there started to be a peeping tom problem in my neighborhood, I would probably try to take down the drone with an air rifle, but that would not be an easy shot. It's something I have thought about because I know my wife is not interested in being the centerpiece of some creeper's masturbatory videos, but who wants to live their life impacted by these kinds of concerns? It does make me think twice about visits to wilderness hotsprings and clothing optional beaches, too -- there have always been weirdos who try and take sneak photos, but drones let them do it from a distance and with a lot more ease.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:24 AM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
Modern wasp sprays will shoot a stream about 25'. Flammable stuff it is.
posted by buzzman at 10:30 AM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by buzzman at 10:30 AM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's like having to say where you'll be driving your car every time you go driving. And if you want live updates that means you'll need every drone to not only have gps but also an active connection to the internet.
Maybe people could just register flight plans before taking their drones out of their own property. This doesn't seem like a big burden since people don't need drones to do everyday necessities like going to the grocery store, picking up prescriptions, or meeting friends - we do use cars for this, so requiring more planning would be a huge burden. For drones, not so much.
I am not OK with having my name and address, and list of what I fly in a publicly accessible database
.... so MS13 can get a sweet UAV to drop porn into a prison yard.
Part of the idea would be to prevent people from using drones to drop things into prison yards, or to import drugs, or be peeping toms, etc. So, the incentive for theft would be diminished. Not entirely eliminated, of course, but much reduced.
Also, everybody knows where your car is (or most peoples' cars) and most people survive this.
In any case, your address and other contact info mightn't need to be viewable by the public.
posted by amtho at 1:11 PM on October 20, 2015
Maybe people could just register flight plans before taking their drones out of their own property. This doesn't seem like a big burden since people don't need drones to do everyday necessities like going to the grocery store, picking up prescriptions, or meeting friends - we do use cars for this, so requiring more planning would be a huge burden. For drones, not so much.
I am not OK with having my name and address, and list of what I fly in a publicly accessible database
.... so MS13 can get a sweet UAV to drop porn into a prison yard.
Part of the idea would be to prevent people from using drones to drop things into prison yards, or to import drugs, or be peeping toms, etc. So, the incentive for theft would be diminished. Not entirely eliminated, of course, but much reduced.
Also, everybody knows where your car is (or most peoples' cars) and most people survive this.
In any case, your address and other contact info mightn't need to be viewable by the public.
posted by amtho at 1:11 PM on October 20, 2015
Really curious to hear whether people having a viseral reaction to drones filming them on the beach have the same reaction to someone there with a Go Pro. Same thing, HD camera, people and kids out in public wearing bathing suits, possibly creepy dude filming (but he could also be checking out the passing birds or filming his buddy surfing), but one is mounted on a flying platform. Is your first reaction to douse him with flammable liquid or take his camera and smash it? Would you expect to get away with doing that without consequence? Why not?
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:10 PM on October 20, 2015
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:10 PM on October 20, 2015
Is the guy with the Go Pro lurking outside my apartment window while I'm dressing, or standing in the way of a fire truck, preventing it from putting out a fire? Because if not, then the two aren't really comparable. Plus, if he is, he can be arrested, whereas if he's flying a drone, well who knows who's flying the drone? There's no way to punish the trespasser with drones.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 5:17 PM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Elementary Penguin at 5:17 PM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
I have just read back through the comments and I don't know if I'm slow, but I can't find anyone here who discusses being viscerally upset about a drone filming at a beach. Isn't that a bit of a straw man? I think what has been discussed here are incidents of danger (flying low over crowds), irresponsible use (sporting events) and invasion of privacy (window peeping). Which of those cases should we not respond to viscerally?
posted by frumiousb at 6:57 PM on October 20, 2015
posted by frumiousb at 6:57 PM on October 20, 2015
I think people are not thrilled with being filmed by strangers either, actually.
Remember the reaction to Google Glass?
posted by amtho at 7:00 PM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
Remember the reaction to Google Glass?
posted by amtho at 7:00 PM on October 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
I-baLL: The keywords are "weighs over one pound". Most people who own drones don't have those drones. They have tiny sub-$40 drones that weigh 100 grams or a few ounces at most and can barely carry a few grams at most. Those are the type of drones that I'm talking about. Putting gps and a transmitter on those is unrealistic since that could double the price and make them unflyable due to the extra weight.
I think a good place to draw the line would be: Able to take pictures or video, or large enough that it has a terminal velocity sufficient to do harm if it falls - Drone. Can't transmit pictures or take video, and light enough that it won't do serious damage if it drops - RC aircraft. You can regulate the former more severely than the latter.
posted by Mitrovarr at 11:37 PM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think a good place to draw the line would be: Able to take pictures or video, or large enough that it has a terminal velocity sufficient to do harm if it falls - Drone. Can't transmit pictures or take video, and light enough that it won't do serious damage if it drops - RC aircraft. You can regulate the former more severely than the latter.
posted by Mitrovarr at 11:37 PM on October 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
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posted by chavenet at 3:31 PM on October 19, 2015 [2 favorites]