March 9, 2002

8:36 PM

Is it time for a United Ireland?David Trimble, Protestant Leader, thinks a vote would decide the issue once and for all. Will Northern Ireland vote to leave the U.K.? Or will they even vote at all?
posted by dwivian (17 comments total)

I hope the six counties do vote to unite, as I think it would be good for Ireland overall. Unfortunately if that does happen, I have a sinking feeling the hardcore on both sides would merely escalate their violent acts.
posted by jonmc at 8:39 PM on March 9, 2002

For reference, here's how the 1924 Boundary Commission vote went, the one that decided there would be a permanent partition.

Also note that Trimble is proposing this referendum with the full confidence that Union with Britain will be upheld; and he's probably right. MSNBC has a great quickie history, Bitter border, for those who need a refresher.

I don't have the stats to say whether the worst outcome would be likely -- that is, that some of the counties would vote to leave the union and others to stay. The balance between Catholics and Protestants inside Ulster/Northern Ireland has only grown in favor of the Catholics, but I don't know how geographically distinct that is.
posted by dhartung at 8:52 PM on March 9, 2002

I think the more interesting question is whether Ireland would really want to reunite with Norhtern Ireland, even if the Catholics win the referendum. The British dump millions and millions of pounds into keeping the peace over there, and the place has no industry, no jobs--virtually no economic value. Obviously, the Irish people have patriotic resaons for wanting reunion, but I just have to wonder how enthusiatic they'd remain if it became a real possibility, particularly while the majority of the population within N. Ireland remains Protestant. It really seems like more trouble than it's worth.
posted by boltman at 10:57 PM on March 9, 2002

A vote would do little good, IMHO. Even if the Republicans won and Ireland were 'reunited'.. you would still have a hardcore Unionist faction fighting to get Northern Ireland back as part of the UK again.

People who aren't in the UK or Ireland often see the problem as being a tyrannical UK versus Ireland.. with the UK saying.. 'We want to keep Northern Ireland' and the Irish saying that they want it.

This couldn't be further from the truth. Simply you have a population in Northern Ireland that is split between one extreme or the other, and while these people live in the same towns and villages, you won't solve the problem by simply 'giving' NI to Ireland, or keeping it as part of the UK.

However, if it separated and became its own independant state, it would, no doubt, be a poor one, and no-one wants that to be the case.

So, things are locked in a stalemate. Many of the people who live there want to be united with Ireland, and many want to be united with the UK. Voting isn't going to make either side back down.
posted by wackybrit at 11:25 PM on March 9, 2002

Oh, and think of Jerusalem while you're at it. Similar, but far more delicate, situation.
posted by wackybrit at 11:27 PM on March 9, 2002

Is that a credit to the Irish or a criticism of the Jerusalamers?

(*Remembers to add Wales to his places he wants to live in sometime*)
posted by Settle at 12:30 AM on March 10, 2002

Are you *sure*?

Back at the thread, how about this for a (facetious) solution? Close Northern Ireland for a twelvemonth. Move all the inhabitants out, every individual spending six months in Britain and six months in the Republic. Then have a vote.
posted by ceiriog at 3:43 AM on March 10, 2002

Integration and jobs are needed in Northern Ireland:

• Forced integration. In every schoolroom (state and private), every public job, every housing estate, mix one side and the other. Where you can't force it by law, encourage it with tax breaks and penalties.

• Lots of investment from Ireland and Britain to create good blue-collar jobs that could be filled quickly by idle locals. Make sure jobs are doled out equally.

Then wait twenty or thirty or forty years for people to forget and make friends and prosper. It beats guns and bombs.
posted by pracowity at 4:26 AM on March 10, 2002

"Give Ireland Back to the Irish"
posted by Vek at 6:42 AM on March 10, 2002

However, if it separated and became its own independant state, it would, no doubt, be a poor one, and no-one wants that to be the case.

I actually think that this is the best solution to the problem. While you're certainly correct that they would be poor without help, I suspect that with independence they would qualify for massive subsidies from the EU. After all, it was EU subsidies that was largely responsible for the Republic of Ireland going from dirt-poor to reasonably well-off in a matter of decades.
posted by boltman at 7:40 AM on March 10, 2002

If the vote does not include the republic it is gerrymandered by definition and meaningless.
posted by chrismc at 8:04 AM on March 10, 2002

Who was it said "Anyone who thinks they know the solution for N. Ireland doesn't understand the problem"?

Having said that, as a Brit I'd welcome a vote in the UK asking the rest of us whether we want anything more to do with the whole expensive mess. Well-meaning people on all sides have been trying to solve The Irish Problem for so long it seems to have become a rite of passage for any political leader within several thousand miles, yet still they feud. Both sides deserve each other, so let's just leave them to it.
posted by normy at 8:59 AM on March 10, 2002

Ireland, Cyprus, Cuba. Sri Lanka, Phillipines, Indonesia, Falklands, Haiti...Whats the deal with islands? Why so much trouble on islands? There must be something bad about islands.
posted by Mack Twain at 10:44 AM on March 10, 2002

On a sufficiently large scale every landmass is an island. The island isn't the problem, the people living in it and their relations with one another are.
posted by nedrichards at 3:09 PM on March 10, 2002

If the vote does not include the republic it is gerrymandered by definition and meaningless.

Err, OK. So it goes like this then.

Q: Do you want to become part of the Republic?

Republican answer: Yes.

Loyalist answer: They tell us we're Irish before we're Irish. We refuse.

Workable solution. Well done Chrismc. Have an apple. Sorry for being the most faceitious man on the planet but really, you deserve it.
posted by vbfg at 4:24 PM on March 10, 2002

Well, things started going a lot better for us here in America once we got rid of those damn brits, why not give the Irish the same chance for improvement?
posted by scottymac at 6:41 PM on March 10, 2002

Well, things started going a lot better for us here in America once we got rid of those damn brits, why not give the Irish the same chance for improvement?

So true, they can enslave the blacks for a hundred years while they revive their backwater economy without having us telling them what to do.
posted by wackybrit at 9:42 PM on March 10, 2002