“I tell my son: be safe, don’t be just sleeping around with girls.”
October 26, 2015 10:50 AM   Subscribe

26-year-old radio producer Ana Adlerstein was walking in Oakland when she was catcalled by 51-year-old Jerome. She pulled a microphone and her, Jerome, and Jerome’s son’s mother had a short conversation.
After some wrangling, Ana got Jerome into the studio and the conversation continued. Love + Radio presents: “An Old Lion, or a Lover’s Lute”
posted by Going To Maine (17 comments total) 6 users marked this as a favorite


 
I enjoyed the post and Ana's pushback, but man this was trip down to "every tired, old excuse for catcalling such that I don't have to stop."
posted by Karaage at 11:23 AM on October 26, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh, for certain. I think that the story is interesting because Jerome and his internal logic (which is quite practical) are interesting, but this isn’t a case of someone who likes to catcall proving that it’s actually acceptable to do so.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:44 AM on October 26, 2015


That was something. I'm not sure what, but man...
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:58 AM on October 26, 2015


In some instances, he almost makes sense and sounds reasonable, then in others you want to ask "what the hell?!"

I do wonder if there's a class and racial difference going with catcalling in the states, where in black and Hispanic or Latino cultures the act is more acceptable, but frowned upon by white Americans.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:08 PM on October 26, 2015


I would suspect class, but class and race are almost always muddled together. To my mind, his thinking is in many ways brutally rational. Catcalling gets him women (so he claims) a reasonable percentage of the time, so he’ll keep doing it. It’s too late to get him to change his ways, so even if he’s (perhaps) teaching his son otherwise, it won’t affect him.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:35 PM on October 26, 2015


Well, if something works, then it works, so it makes sense that a guy would keep on catcalling. Even if some women are rightfully bothered or threatened by it.

Jerome sounds like an oddity. Clearly has some messed up ideas but is basically ok, especially when compared to other, more assertive and threatening types.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:06 PM on October 26, 2015


Says a guy.
posted by languagehat at 5:21 PM on October 26, 2015 [8 favorites]


Y'know there are some pretty complicated and difficult issues going where race, feminism and street harassment intersect. Last Saturday I (White cis-man) witnessed my partner (Mexican cis-woman) being not just cat-called but verbally harassed, right in her face by another guy (Black man, presumably cis.) The phrasing of his harassment was the same sort of 'pick-up' line that harassers explain should be complimentary. It started off like a normal conversation with a stranger- excuse me, do you know where this street is? Would you like a flyer? Etc. Only after the initial pleasantries the guy said "I have to tell you you have a fine ass." My partner told him to fuck off and we walked away through the crowd. The guy hollered out a couple more things and we ignored him. It was a shitty, fucked up thing to do to a person and I don't give a fuck if he gets laid once a month from harassing 15 women a day, its not something we should be sensitive to. My partner is very confident and outspoken and felt fine telling the guy to fuck off. But I was extremely uncomfortable and again the ugliness of sub-conscious racism reared its head. I felt that if I said anything it would have made the situation worse, would have escalated the guy and there would have been an 'incident' which, in my west cost hippie middle class up brining, I have been trained to avoid at all costs. I guess I'm typing this from my perspective because thats all I really know. I'm really proud of my partner, that she won't take shit and calls out other people's ugliness (especially mine). But she was still triggered and adrenalin was flowing and it ruined the better part of a few hours for us. For her that is a normal walk through a normal crowd on any fucking day, and we shouldn't allow that to be acceptable price to pay just because it gets some guys laid who may be out of touch with changing social norms, or who have grown up in a culture that allows men to publicly harass and degrade women.

The thing is it feels REALLY FUCKING RACIST to make that last statement and I don't know what to say.
posted by kittensofthenight at 5:43 PM on October 26, 2015 [6 favorites]


Jerome sounds like an oddity. Clearly has some messed up ideas but is basically ok, especially when compared to other, more assertive and threatening types.

The thing is, I suspect that street harassment in general is done by people who have some messed up ideas but are basically okay. Ditto rapes and other kinds of violence. Vey few of us are rotten through and through, or would try to construct ourselves that way. As is, I suspect that Jerome is very, very normal.
posted by Going To Maine at 6:26 PM on October 26, 2015 [2 favorites]


The worst part about your story, kittensofthenight, is that it's very likely worse when you're not around.
posted by lauranesson at 6:31 PM on October 26, 2015 [5 favorites]


For her that is a normal walk through a normal crowd on any fucking day, and we shouldn't allow that to be acceptable price to pay just because it gets some guys laid who may be out of touch with changing social norms, or who have grown up in a culture that allows men to publicly harass and degrade women.

The thing is it feels REALLY FUCKING RACIST to make that last statement and I don't know what to say.


Probably because you're othering the harassment, making it something cultures that are not yours do, while implying that your culture doesn't degrade women. But of course it does, just in a different manner. Which doesn't make it right, it all sucks and is wrong. But we (the general we) prioritize what we know as right and things outside that zone as wrong. So yeah, you're racist, but the "good news" is that pretty much everyone is on some level.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:19 PM on October 26, 2015 [5 favorites]


What a concise explanation Brandon Blatcher, thank you.

And lauranesson, that is definitely true. Especially in spaces that are less crowded.
posted by kittensofthenight at 7:57 PM on October 26, 2015 [1 favorite]


"The thing is it feels REALLY FUCKING RACIST to make that last statement and I don't know what to say. "

"Probably because you're othering the harassment, making it something cultures that are not yours do, while implying that your culture doesn't degrade women"

Within the U.S., there is such a thing as a male culture that crosses a great many ethnic and racial boundaries, and I will other that culture every day of the week and twice on Sundays because I am lucky enough not to belong to it and unlucky enough to be surrounded by it on all sides. Street harassment of women by men regularly crosses ethnic and racial lines and sometimes even makes a point of it; the special treatment accorded to harassment of white women by black men in racist narratives should distract nobody from the fact that white men habitually harass black women, that men of all races target women of all races. The conclusion to draw is not that all cultures are equally bad because men own their cultures and male behavior defines a cultural norm, but rather that the cultural value that allows this behavior to flourish is not connected to ethnicity or race, but to gender.

As an outsider to this cultural group, I know there are a lot of minute distinctions I will never understand: the particular phrasing and approach and manner of abuse seems to vary based on whether the men perceive a woman as one of theirs or not -- men in some groups go after 'their own' but leave alone women who are outsiders; men in other groups do exactly the opposite, for various reasons - but these are details. one guy wringing his hands at another guy for fear of judging too harshly a group to which he does not belong is fairly ludicrous. You can judge, but not from the outside perspective you're claiming. you're an insider on this one.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:03 PM on October 26, 2015 [4 favorites]


Speaking as a large, straight, white, comfortably well off, middle-aged man: if you are one of the so-called men that I have verbally abused for harassing a woman, then I care not a whit about your opinion of me, nor about that of any bystander who might have witnessed our interaction.

If I can't use my privilege to put an arsehole in his place, what's the use of having it?
posted by flabdablet at 2:35 AM on October 27, 2015


I was at the recent NerdCon: Stories (conference thingie for storytellers, created by Hank Green and John Green) and Adlerstein was a featured speaker during one of their Main Stage events. Several people were asked to give talks about "Why Stories Matter" and Adlerstein played clips from this interview and talked somewhat about this story and how it developed. The theme of her talk was that everyone has their own story to tell and that you shouldn't automatically judge someone because of what they say "in the moment" and without knowing more about them.

While I was in my seat at in the convention center, I was thinking, "Hmm, yes, yes, people contain multitudes and I shouldn't be so judgmental." However, the feeling didn't last because some people in the world are just completely terrible.
posted by TrishaLynn at 5:30 AM on October 27, 2015 [1 favorite]


I suspect street harassment in general is done by people who have some messed up ideas but are basically okay.

Tonight I just ended a 31 year connection with someone. He identifies as bogan (Australian for redneck) but when I knew him, he was bright and thoughtful (some of the time). I'm socialised to take all sorts of crap from people, and usually do, but I've been drinking. When he dissed a mate of mine (first suggested I try to change his sexual orientation, and followed up with something about he couldn't change the oil in the car unless it was touchy feely - that was about his PhD), I basically told him my next stop was approaching and I couldn't talk to him. He called me again later, and waxed lyrical (as much as he could) about an outdated misogynist racist comedian. And it appears I have backbone (I was surprised). I told him he wasn't a very nice person, that I had problems with his attitude to a bunch of things, that he wasn't tolerant, that an event (let's not go there) that he'd boasted about and found to be comical was cruel and nasty, and that I wasn't interested in hearing from him again. He was the only person I've known longer than my family, but it wasn't worth it. Everytime he talked to me, every single time, his nasty beliefs (despite his - NOW [far too late] interest in me) made me dance and dodge saying what I thought.

And he's the kind of guy who harasses on the street, and who people think he's an okay guy because, yeah sure he drinks a bit, and maybe smokes once in a while but he's never hit a woman. What a standard. He thinks certain people (male, white, like cars, preferably Valiants but certainly not Japanese vehicles) are okay. Women he sees as people to entice and entertain and have sex with. I called him on it - said he didn't think women were intelligent, and he said something that made my blood run cold because I've heard it a lot and believed the men who said it, he said he respected women and that they were the smartest, strongest people he knew. I know he's right, and I know he doesn't believe it. I know it. I know that he's never said, OMG, F person told me this or F person did this or I love F comedian or F actor. Never. Nope. The people he talks about are ALWAYS male, and his sister was my best friend 30 years ago.

So, yeah, these men are okay, sure, with other men. But in my opinion, they continue to believe that women are just not really that good at whatever this particular person values - though they tend to keep house good and manage finances, if you tell them what the goals are.

people who have some messed up ideas but are basically okay.
Messed up ideas that you're not interested in changing. That's a big problem. It's a huge problem. And one I'm no longer willing to give a pass on. As long as we do, the people with those messed up ideas will keep on thinking women aren't really people. I've lived that. I've lived it in ways that gave me lifelong trauma. My father was a man that everyone who knew him might have said the same thing.
posted by b33j at 6:28 AM on October 27, 2015 [5 favorites]


And.... here's the link to the Adlerstein talk at NerdCon: Stories.
posted by TrishaLynn at 5:28 AM on November 1, 2015


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