embrace your death, and do your best
November 2, 2015 1:50 PM Subscribe
The Toast co-founder Nicole Cliffe brings a complementary and more sobering perspective.
posted by kmz at 1:57 PM on November 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by kmz at 1:57 PM on November 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
Whoops! GMTA, etc etc.
(In the meantime, another highlight in a series of highlights: Children’s Stories Made Horrific: Curious George)
posted by kmz at 2:01 PM on November 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
(In the meantime, another highlight in a series of highlights: Children’s Stories Made Horrific: Curious George)
posted by kmz at 2:01 PM on November 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I was just wondering about this the other day when Nicole made a side comment on some post about how her husband was funding the recent redesign. This is informative, thank you.
posted by Wretch729 at 2:12 PM on November 2, 2015
posted by Wretch729 at 2:12 PM on November 2, 2015
And this is what happens to the world when women are in charge. Transparency. I almost quite literally swooned when she told the crowd what her speaking fee was and how much money they used to start up. I love that there are so many more women with a voice and a platform and I love what they are doing with it.
posted by amanda at 2:28 PM on November 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by amanda at 2:28 PM on November 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
Also not that it's any of our business but did anyone ever explain what happened with Nick Pavich? Was his reason for leaving just related to fallout from the rights grab kerfluffle? Mallory discreetly elided him when she talked about the startup funding. Whatever it was, it doesn't seem to have affected the site's outward face but I wonder if/how it affected the business side behind the curtain?
posted by Wretch729 at 2:35 PM on November 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Wretch729 at 2:35 PM on November 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I just want them to do one in their series "If X were your Y" for Mallory Ortberg. Or maybe that's just the Obnoxious Male in me that I've haven't totally killed yet.
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:05 PM on November 2, 2015
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:05 PM on November 2, 2015
All your favorite art was bankrolled by some rich dude. The art is still good.
posted by gwint at 3:21 PM on November 2, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by gwint at 3:21 PM on November 2, 2015 [9 favorites]
She says in the talk that they started with $100,000. Does the co-founder mean to say they actually spent more than that via her husband? That's the only part I'm confused about.
posted by cell divide at 3:46 PM on November 2, 2015
posted by cell divide at 3:46 PM on November 2, 2015
She says in the talk that they started with $100,000. Does the co-founder mean to say they actually spent more than that via her husband? That's the only part I'm confused about.
No, she says they started with $200,000. Half of that was from Nicole (& her husband, I guess) and half of that was from another investor, the aforementioned Nick Pavich.
posted by listen, lady at 3:48 PM on November 2, 2015
No, she says they started with $200,000. Half of that was from Nicole (& her husband, I guess) and half of that was from another investor, the aforementioned Nick Pavich.
posted by listen, lady at 3:48 PM on November 2, 2015
Oh damn now we all know how to say Chorie's name
posted by The Whelk at 3:52 PM on November 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 3:52 PM on November 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
No, she says they started with $200,000. Half of that was from Nicole (& her husband, I guess) and half of that was from another investor, the aforementioned Nick Pavich.
Well, actually she says they got $200,000, but only spent $100,000, with half of it going back to Nicole.
posted by cell divide at 4:01 PM on November 2, 2015
Well, actually she says they got $200,000, but only spent $100,000, with half of it going back to Nicole.
posted by cell divide at 4:01 PM on November 2, 2015
One of the things I do for my job is to book speakers, and there's no way I'd have expected to get Mallory Ortberg for less than $3K, especially if it involved travel. I think it offers a hint of the thing where women undervalue themselves. I'm sure she'll get tons of advice about speaking fees now - she's good, and well known, and can charge a lot. But Isn't it interesting that she wouldn't have known her drawing power?
posted by Miko at 4:03 PM on November 2, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by Miko at 4:03 PM on November 2, 2015 [13 favorites]
I also am very curious about what happened to Nick Pavich (though I think they're much better off without him). It's probably intelligent that no one is talking about it but oh the curiosity.
Also apparently Mallory had her amounts mixed up and actually only asked for $500.
posted by jeather at 4:17 PM on November 2, 2015
Also apparently Mallory had her amounts mixed up and actually only asked for $500.
posted by jeather at 4:17 PM on November 2, 2015
Miko - Your point is only reinforced if you read her tweets after the talk; she actually only asked for $500 and got it wrong in her slide.
posted by Wretch729 at 4:19 PM on November 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Wretch729 at 4:19 PM on November 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think it offers a hint of the thing where women undervalue themselves. I'm sure she'll get tons of advice about speaking fees now - she's good, and well known, and can charge a lot. But Isn't it interesting that she wouldn't have known her drawing power?
But, who does? I mean, what is it worth exactly, to have a speaker with drawing power? It parallels the issues with Jennifer Lawrence and American Hustle. If you say a number that feels "big" to you and the other part of the "game" is that you can get someone to do their work for the lowest price possible, then you are just at odds. It's a blind auction. The thing that I find galling in the American Hustle thing is not that Lawrence didn't push/negotiate harder (I believe should could have easily pushed for more but also could have pushed herself right out of a job) but that nobody apparently batted an eye at Jeremy Renner's ask. Employers have no problem pushing back against a woman's negotiation but seem to, in fact, have a harder time saying no to a man. We are all beholden to dude-feelings.
Anyway, I think she had a great talk. I have no idea how much a speaker is worth. If there is some objective criteria then someone should publish it so women can win more.
posted by amanda at 4:43 PM on November 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
But, who does? I mean, what is it worth exactly, to have a speaker with drawing power? It parallels the issues with Jennifer Lawrence and American Hustle. If you say a number that feels "big" to you and the other part of the "game" is that you can get someone to do their work for the lowest price possible, then you are just at odds. It's a blind auction. The thing that I find galling in the American Hustle thing is not that Lawrence didn't push/negotiate harder (I believe should could have easily pushed for more but also could have pushed herself right out of a job) but that nobody apparently batted an eye at Jeremy Renner's ask. Employers have no problem pushing back against a woman's negotiation but seem to, in fact, have a harder time saying no to a man. We are all beholden to dude-feelings.
Anyway, I think she had a great talk. I have no idea how much a speaker is worth. If there is some objective criteria then someone should publish it so women can win more.
posted by amanda at 4:43 PM on November 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
Well, actually she says they got $200,000, but only spent $100,000, with half of it going back to Nicole.
I'm not sure what you are misunderstanding, then. Did Nicole's husband later provide additional funding? Yes.
posted by listen, lady at 5:22 PM on November 2, 2015
I'm not sure what you are misunderstanding, then. Did Nicole's husband later provide additional funding? Yes.
posted by listen, lady at 5:22 PM on November 2, 2015
But, who does? I mean, what is it worth exactly, to have a speaker with drawing power?
It's interesting, because it's not "worth" money in ticket sales or anything like that - it's more about the profile of the organization inviting you, and the network they're trying to build and the ideas they're trying to promote. So they're measuring worth in other kinds of impact than dollars, and what they have to spend is more determined by their own resources and budget than by objective measures of worth. So you set your fees basically based on how high-profile the places you'll be speaking - and their audiences - are. It also has to do with how many seats there are, how influential the event is perceived to be, whether your talk is going to be broadcast or online, how high-profile the venue is and how connected you are.
If anyone ever asks you to speak, first ask "What's your budget?" Before accepting an offer you should ask for time to get back to the person, then call around and ask your friends/contacts what you'd be worth at that particular venue and for that audience. If asked for a quote, start out high, because most venues will negotiate with you - so if you say "I'm $1000," and they're like "Oh geez, we can't afford $1000, we have a very small budget and we're a charity yadda yadda," you can say "well, what can you afford? I am flexible." That happens with just about every speaker we book. The only time we don't negotiate down is if the speaker's stated fee happens to magically match a generous budget that we have and there's no real need for us to haggle. We negotiate down when we really want someone who's a little too rich for our blood, but they're used to it, and all they can say is no.
Speaking fees are a bit of a black art with lots of contingencies, but here are some super rough guidelines:
- Talented but unknown people should ask for $150-250 to speak for 1 hour; $150 for a local audience, a talk for a classroom of university students, etc., $250 for like a public lecture or special event.
- Local celebrity types and first-time authors (with major publishers, not self-) and specialist instructors should ask for $500.
- $750 is a very in-between amount and a little strange. IN the world there are basically two types of venues; poorly funded ones and better funded ones. Poorly funded ones might stretch to pay you $500 but they can't get much beyond that. Better funded ones start considering speakers at a higher "reach" level, so they start looking at $1000-1500 speakers and work up from there. So, $750 is sort of in between. The only time I'd really pay that would be for something like a talk plus: a talk plus a demonstration, a talk plus consulting, a talk plus a roundtable, etc.
- Widely admired, "hot" speakers like academics with a timely message, people getting a lot of buzz right now for a new film/project/book, people with a following online or in a particular kind of media are anywhere from $1000-3000, $5000, or $10, to give some common price points depending on how hot the person is.
- Beyond $3000 also becomes a mixed bag. Established, well-known authors and people who have a personal connection to your venue might speak for $3K to do you a favor, but that niche might equally well rising lesser-knowns.
- Authors whose names people know but are not the top of the cultural stack are anywhere from $5000-10000.
- Once you get beyond $10,000, you're really not talking about money any more, but how busy the person is. Fees above $10K are really about screening venues and events so that you can select only the very most appealing once. This is the echelon in which you find statespeople, famous public radio figures and famous authors, people you might see on TV shows or hear interviewed by Terry Gross. Most of the time when layfolks say to me "You should get Person X to speak!" I have to disabuse them that that really is beyond our pale. The Michael Pollans, Oprah Winfreys, and Ira Glasses of the world are not really within reach unless it's the kind of budget a major university has for a commencement speaker or it's a cause they are personally invested in. Those kinds of speakers are $50K up.
There are speakers' bureaus that end up sort of setting price standards for these sorts of things. When you're just starting out, always ask what their budget is, and do some comparitive research among your peers and contacts. You can be flexible, but start high, and don't sell yourself short. Honestly, if you say "my basic speaking fee is $1000," they'll be impressed, and if they respond with "We can't," then you can drop your price if you want.
Mallory Ortberg is online-famous, an influential creative, has been published in the most major magazines being circulated today, and has more than 50,000 Twitter followers. She's definitely in the $1-3K range, at least. She can certainly get to the point of asking for more if she crafts a speaking career with intention.
posted by Miko at 5:27 PM on November 2, 2015 [88 favorites]
It's interesting, because it's not "worth" money in ticket sales or anything like that - it's more about the profile of the organization inviting you, and the network they're trying to build and the ideas they're trying to promote. So they're measuring worth in other kinds of impact than dollars, and what they have to spend is more determined by their own resources and budget than by objective measures of worth. So you set your fees basically based on how high-profile the places you'll be speaking - and their audiences - are. It also has to do with how many seats there are, how influential the event is perceived to be, whether your talk is going to be broadcast or online, how high-profile the venue is and how connected you are.
If anyone ever asks you to speak, first ask "What's your budget?" Before accepting an offer you should ask for time to get back to the person, then call around and ask your friends/contacts what you'd be worth at that particular venue and for that audience. If asked for a quote, start out high, because most venues will negotiate with you - so if you say "I'm $1000," and they're like "Oh geez, we can't afford $1000, we have a very small budget and we're a charity yadda yadda," you can say "well, what can you afford? I am flexible." That happens with just about every speaker we book. The only time we don't negotiate down is if the speaker's stated fee happens to magically match a generous budget that we have and there's no real need for us to haggle. We negotiate down when we really want someone who's a little too rich for our blood, but they're used to it, and all they can say is no.
Speaking fees are a bit of a black art with lots of contingencies, but here are some super rough guidelines:
- Talented but unknown people should ask for $150-250 to speak for 1 hour; $150 for a local audience, a talk for a classroom of university students, etc., $250 for like a public lecture or special event.
- Local celebrity types and first-time authors (with major publishers, not self-) and specialist instructors should ask for $500.
- $750 is a very in-between amount and a little strange. IN the world there are basically two types of venues; poorly funded ones and better funded ones. Poorly funded ones might stretch to pay you $500 but they can't get much beyond that. Better funded ones start considering speakers at a higher "reach" level, so they start looking at $1000-1500 speakers and work up from there. So, $750 is sort of in between. The only time I'd really pay that would be for something like a talk plus: a talk plus a demonstration, a talk plus consulting, a talk plus a roundtable, etc.
- Widely admired, "hot" speakers like academics with a timely message, people getting a lot of buzz right now for a new film/project/book, people with a following online or in a particular kind of media are anywhere from $1000-3000, $5000, or $10, to give some common price points depending on how hot the person is.
- Beyond $3000 also becomes a mixed bag. Established, well-known authors and people who have a personal connection to your venue might speak for $3K to do you a favor, but that niche might equally well rising lesser-knowns.
- Authors whose names people know but are not the top of the cultural stack are anywhere from $5000-10000.
- Once you get beyond $10,000, you're really not talking about money any more, but how busy the person is. Fees above $10K are really about screening venues and events so that you can select only the very most appealing once. This is the echelon in which you find statespeople, famous public radio figures and famous authors, people you might see on TV shows or hear interviewed by Terry Gross. Most of the time when layfolks say to me "You should get Person X to speak!" I have to disabuse them that that really is beyond our pale. The Michael Pollans, Oprah Winfreys, and Ira Glasses of the world are not really within reach unless it's the kind of budget a major university has for a commencement speaker or it's a cause they are personally invested in. Those kinds of speakers are $50K up.
There are speakers' bureaus that end up sort of setting price standards for these sorts of things. When you're just starting out, always ask what their budget is, and do some comparitive research among your peers and contacts. You can be flexible, but start high, and don't sell yourself short. Honestly, if you say "my basic speaking fee is $1000," they'll be impressed, and if they respond with "We can't," then you can drop your price if you want.
Mallory Ortberg is online-famous, an influential creative, has been published in the most major magazines being circulated today, and has more than 50,000 Twitter followers. She's definitely in the $1-3K range, at least. She can certainly get to the point of asking for more if she crafts a speaking career with intention.
posted by Miko at 5:27 PM on November 2, 2015 [88 favorites]
^damn
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:46 PM on November 2, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:46 PM on November 2, 2015 [7 favorites]
Also shit Mallory is LIT onstage. She should seriously do standup or at least charge more than Anil.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:53 PM on November 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:53 PM on November 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
Just wanted to say thanks, Miko, for that advice, above. Very, very handy.
posted by aureliobuendia at 8:21 AM on November 3, 2015
posted by aureliobuendia at 8:21 AM on November 3, 2015
What a charming, honest, and refreshing talk! It's an absolute JOY to see someone at one of these events talk about their new venture and how they're making things happen now instead of the Usual Suspects talking about what they did 10 years ago and their quests for continued relevance.
posted by kimberussell at 8:25 AM on November 3, 2015
posted by kimberussell at 8:25 AM on November 3, 2015
> Also shit Mallory is LIT onstage.
But no-one knew that beforehand. She might be funny one-on-one (at a party after everyone else is murdered), but she could have thrown up on the front row. Her written wit might not have translated. So, a low ask for speaking doesn't sound like a woman undervaluing as much as a novice.
posted by morganw at 8:42 AM on November 3, 2015
But no-one knew that beforehand. She might be funny one-on-one (at a party after everyone else is murdered), but she could have thrown up on the front row. Her written wit might not have translated. So, a low ask for speaking doesn't sound like a woman undervaluing as much as a novice.
posted by morganw at 8:42 AM on November 3, 2015
So, a low ask for speaking doesn't sound like a woman undervaluing as much as a novice.
Even novices should seek advice on charging; also, I'd agree with you more if it weren't so consistent for women to do this (while men go higher to start, unapologetically, and sometimes unrealistically). Also, actual performance as a speaker has very little to do with asking price - something that might be surprising, but is true. Some of the hardest to get are also the deadliest.
posted by Miko at 11:56 AM on November 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Even novices should seek advice on charging; also, I'd agree with you more if it weren't so consistent for women to do this (while men go higher to start, unapologetically, and sometimes unrealistically). Also, actual performance as a speaker has very little to do with asking price - something that might be surprising, but is true. Some of the hardest to get are also the deadliest.
posted by Miko at 11:56 AM on November 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
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posted by kate blank at 1:57 PM on November 2, 2015 [25 favorites]