Neil Strauss grows up
November 12, 2015 8:24 AM Subscribe
Neil Strauss, author of the The Game: Penetrating the Secret Society of Pickup Artists, says he has grown up. He talked with the CBC (and The Guardian, and GQ) about his new book, The Truth: An Uncomfortable Book About Relationships.
Yay for him! I'm glad we're focusing on the important person here and the effect that his highly influential book had on his own personal psyche.
posted by ostro at 8:34 AM on November 12, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by ostro at 8:34 AM on November 12, 2015 [16 favorites]
Still utterly insufferable then.
At least he's not turned right wing Christian. Yet.
posted by Artw at 8:34 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
At least he's not turned right wing Christian. Yet.
posted by Artw at 8:34 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Ehhh, I read these articles--and I think there was even one on the TO Star or Globe & Fail--not too long ago, considered an FPP, but really, I mean, yayish that he feels differently? Not differently enough for me to care about him. He poisoned the well with The Game (though it is not hard to argue about that well being poisoned long ago and forever) so meh.
posted by Kitteh at 8:34 AM on November 12, 2015
posted by Kitteh at 8:34 AM on November 12, 2015
says he has grown up
A casual inspection of his twitter feed and website, neither of which I'm inclined to link to, suggests that this might charitably be described as a work in progress.
For somebody who's fostered and profited well from one of the most regressive, toxic social movements of this young century to turn around and say "I'm all grown up now" and they try to profit on their own redemption story is pretty galling. If "coming to your senses" means "finally paying attention to what the non-sanctimonious non-narcissists around you have been saying for a decade", well, great. High five for personal growth. But all this guy's doing is skipping town without paying for the place he's trashed.
posted by mhoye at 8:36 AM on November 12, 2015 [63 favorites]
A casual inspection of his twitter feed and website, neither of which I'm inclined to link to, suggests that this might charitably be described as a work in progress.
For somebody who's fostered and profited well from one of the most regressive, toxic social movements of this young century to turn around and say "I'm all grown up now" and they try to profit on their own redemption story is pretty galling. If "coming to your senses" means "finally paying attention to what the non-sanctimonious non-narcissists around you have been saying for a decade", well, great. High five for personal growth. But all this guy's doing is skipping town without paying for the place he's trashed.
posted by mhoye at 8:36 AM on November 12, 2015 [63 favorites]
Redemption narratives are seldom convincing.
posted by Chrysostom at 8:38 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Chrysostom at 8:38 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
"It has been pointed out to me many of you are not buying my books because the pernicious bullshit they contained offended you. I have aged now and have whipped up an entirely new flavor of bullshit that I hope you will agree to buy. The old bullshit is still for sale, though, in case that is your thing."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:42 AM on November 12, 2015 [72 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:42 AM on November 12, 2015 [72 favorites]
Nobody asking any pointed questions about Elliot Rodger and his fellows, I see.
posted by Artw at 8:44 AM on November 12, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:44 AM on November 12, 2015 [15 favorites]
Blargh, those photos in the Guardian article, though. IT IS WEIRD.
posted by Kitteh at 8:46 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 8:46 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Remember when Tucker Max did this exact same thing? Went around to all the bro-mags and announced he was all grown up now? Didn't care then, don't care now, though I do hope that the decision to trot around the redemption circuit like trained show ponies signals sagging sales and impending financial problems for these aging garbage douchebros.
The distinction between guilt and shame is one I've heard before. Usually, it's suggested that guilt is the more superficial, passing emotion (it's about what you did) while shame is the more profound one that deserves deeper engagement (it's about who you are.) Reading this article, I couldn't help but think the opposite - dude's spent a shit ton of time navel-gazing about Who He Is, but doesn't seem to have spent much time at all considering the lasting effects of what he did, or the damage he has done.
Also, I hate that he married a model. A model whose best friend he fucked in a parking lot. I mean, she's an independent agent, she chooses her choices, but YUCK. Would he have gotten to this 'responsible' place (marriage, child, $$$) without all of his shady sociopathic psychological jujitsu? If not, how much remorse can he actually feel? I know it's not right to equate a person with wealth, but I can't help but feel like he's in the position of a 'reformed' criminal who expresses remorse while living off the profits of his crimes.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 8:47 AM on November 12, 2015 [15 favorites]
The distinction between guilt and shame is one I've heard before. Usually, it's suggested that guilt is the more superficial, passing emotion (it's about what you did) while shame is the more profound one that deserves deeper engagement (it's about who you are.) Reading this article, I couldn't help but think the opposite - dude's spent a shit ton of time navel-gazing about Who He Is, but doesn't seem to have spent much time at all considering the lasting effects of what he did, or the damage he has done.
Also, I hate that he married a model. A model whose best friend he fucked in a parking lot. I mean, she's an independent agent, she chooses her choices, but YUCK. Would he have gotten to this 'responsible' place (marriage, child, $$$) without all of his shady sociopathic psychological jujitsu? If not, how much remorse can he actually feel? I know it's not right to equate a person with wealth, but I can't help but feel like he's in the position of a 'reformed' criminal who expresses remorse while living off the profits of his crimes.
posted by pretentious illiterate at 8:47 AM on November 12, 2015 [15 favorites]
At least he's not turned right wing Christian. Yet.
Aside from the "right wing" part, wouldn't that be better, though, since he would be forced to recant of and repudiate--in DirtyOldTown's excellent words--"the old bullshit"? In which case it would no longer be for sale? And his "new bullshit" would have an objective standard against which--in mhoye's words--his "work in progress" could be measured.
He's done immeasurable harm so any serious change from this guy (as DirtyOldTown notes, I'm not seeing it either) should be applauded.
posted by resurrexit at 8:47 AM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Aside from the "right wing" part, wouldn't that be better, though, since he would be forced to recant of and repudiate--in DirtyOldTown's excellent words--"the old bullshit"? In which case it would no longer be for sale? And his "new bullshit" would have an objective standard against which--in mhoye's words--his "work in progress" could be measured.
He's done immeasurable harm so any serious change from this guy (as DirtyOldTown notes, I'm not seeing it either) should be applauded.
posted by resurrexit at 8:47 AM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
No, he'll be differently awful, not better.
I wonder when the kid will go from his prop in tales about how he no longer sleeps around to his prop in tales about how he had to start sleeping around again.
posted by Artw at 8:49 AM on November 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
I wonder when the kid will go from his prop in tales about how he no longer sleeps around to his prop in tales about how he had to start sleeping around again.
posted by Artw at 8:49 AM on November 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
Dude gets none of my money and little of my attention. Too little, too late.
Some things you can't walk back. Maybe in a few years we'll see if this current introspection holds.
But we really don't need this dude telling us about his brokenness, and how broken his dude followers were or are.
Fuck him. We owe him nothing. Not even our attention.
posted by clvrmnky at 8:49 AM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Some things you can't walk back. Maybe in a few years we'll see if this current introspection holds.
But we really don't need this dude telling us about his brokenness, and how broken his dude followers were or are.
Fuck him. We owe him nothing. Not even our attention.
posted by clvrmnky at 8:49 AM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
A master manipulator. The Guardian interview, where there are photos of him and his family basically naked, is pretty odd.
posted by Nevin at 8:50 AM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Nevin at 8:50 AM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
In other news: Mystery Now Wearing Slightly Less Ostentatious Hats.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:50 AM on November 12, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:50 AM on November 12, 2015 [16 favorites]
Excellent! It looks like he has realized his book before was demographically limiting, and now he is attempting to double his demographic by villainizing his own behavior in attempts to sell more books to the demographic he exploitedand the demographic he encouraged!
Meanwhile he still sells his original book, with the likely defense of 'Money!' while simultaneously pitching this new tripe.
He should have just printed his first book on toilet paper rolls and he'd have reached the same expanded demographic without lying to himself.
posted by Nanukthedog at 8:54 AM on November 12, 2015
Meanwhile he still sells his original book, with the likely defense of 'Money!' while simultaneously pitching this new tripe.
He should have just printed his first book on toilet paper rolls and he'd have reached the same expanded demographic without lying to himself.
posted by Nanukthedog at 8:54 AM on November 12, 2015
The GQ article has an ad for diamonds on top.
He still sounds like a douchenozel who has not owned up to the harm he has caused. He mentions it fleetingly in the Guardian article- The Game has become something women fear. It is another facet of rape culture, of viewing sex with a woman as something to be pried out of her instead of enjoyed together. The fact that he does not think of The Game as a mistake, sinks his entire redemption narrative.
I remember liking the idea of The Game when I was 14-15 and sex seemed to be a remote possibility for me, but something that everyone else was having. Once I got over myself, I realized just how much bullshit this was. This was also the beginning days of the internet, when you could troll people with a picture of a dog wearing pearls (see Sharon wearing nothing but pearls!) and one of the pickup sites also advertised amateur pornography with the seller's three girlfriends, one of whom was Asian, and had, the seller assured the reader, sideways genitals.
I tend to think of The Game as having just about the same level of credibility. However, it has trained a generation of predators and rapists and until the Strausses of the world acknowledge this, he will continue to rank in the "not thought of, but when reminded up, wish him nothing but unemployment" category of people.
posted by Hactar at 8:59 AM on November 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
He still sounds like a douchenozel who has not owned up to the harm he has caused. He mentions it fleetingly in the Guardian article- The Game has become something women fear. It is another facet of rape culture, of viewing sex with a woman as something to be pried out of her instead of enjoyed together. The fact that he does not think of The Game as a mistake, sinks his entire redemption narrative.
I remember liking the idea of The Game when I was 14-15 and sex seemed to be a remote possibility for me, but something that everyone else was having. Once I got over myself, I realized just how much bullshit this was. This was also the beginning days of the internet, when you could troll people with a picture of a dog wearing pearls (see Sharon wearing nothing but pearls!) and one of the pickup sites also advertised amateur pornography with the seller's three girlfriends, one of whom was Asian, and had, the seller assured the reader, sideways genitals.
I tend to think of The Game as having just about the same level of credibility. However, it has trained a generation of predators and rapists and until the Strausses of the world acknowledge this, he will continue to rank in the "not thought of, but when reminded up, wish him nothing but unemployment" category of people.
posted by Hactar at 8:59 AM on November 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
gross.
posted by goneill at 9:01 AM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by goneill at 9:01 AM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Blargh, those photos in the Guardian article, though. IT IS WEIRD.
Honestly, just knowing he made enough money off this shit to afford that bathroom makes me want no one to ever give him another dime again.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:02 AM on November 12, 2015 [11 favorites]
Honestly, just knowing he made enough money off this shit to afford that bathroom makes me want no one to ever give him another dime again.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:02 AM on November 12, 2015 [11 favorites]
In the CBC interview, he says his revelation was that his mother was "emotionally incestuous". He says that everybody else he talked with who had trouble with commitment had the same background as his - a mother who was controlling, or depressed, or too involved, or not enough, or something-something.
The problem with pop-psychology revelations is that they have no control groups. A whole lot of people have mothers who are depressed or controlling or not there for them 100% for whatever reason, and most of those people don't turn into sleazy manipulators.
Hopefully - for his kid, at least - he has actually learned something, and it's not just another brief phase.
posted by clawsoon at 9:06 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
The problem with pop-psychology revelations is that they have no control groups. A whole lot of people have mothers who are depressed or controlling or not there for them 100% for whatever reason, and most of those people don't turn into sleazy manipulators.
Hopefully - for his kid, at least - he has actually learned something, and it's not just another brief phase.
posted by clawsoon at 9:06 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Two incomes for the price of one grossness!
And yes, Tucker Max's Become the Man Women Want came out 6 weeks ago.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:07 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
And yes, Tucker Max's Become the Man Women Want came out 6 weeks ago.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:07 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
This was also the beginning days of the internet
??? The Game came out in 2005.
posted by stopgap at 9:07 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
??? The Game came out in 2005.
posted by stopgap at 9:07 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
He did edit Radiotext(e) for Semiotext(e), one of the greatest books about the untapped possibilities of radio. It was his first book.
I don't want him to grow up. I want him to regress back to when he was the Radiotext(e) guy, before the Pick Up Community ruined him and he then spread that stain across America.
posted by maxsparber at 9:08 AM on November 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
I don't want him to grow up. I want him to regress back to when he was the Radiotext(e) guy, before the Pick Up Community ruined him and he then spread that stain across America.
posted by maxsparber at 9:08 AM on November 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yeah, my definition of the beginning days of the internet correspond with being 14-15, too. (1993)
posted by Stonestock Relentless at 9:10 AM on November 12, 2015 [15 favorites]
posted by Stonestock Relentless at 9:10 AM on November 12, 2015 [15 favorites]
It takes a special kind of chutzpah to title your book "The Truth."
posted by the_blizz at 9:14 AM on November 12, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by the_blizz at 9:14 AM on November 12, 2015 [8 favorites]
He still sounds like a douchenozel who has not owned up to the harm he has caused. He mentions it fleetingly in the Guardian article- The Game has become something women fear.
How many of those women or critics here have actually read The Game? I find a lot of people describe it as a PUA Bible or are reacting to Strauss as if that's what he wrote. I strongly suspect none of those people has even cracked the book open, and are just treating it as a bat-signal for some personal battle or something.
It's pretty damn far from being any kind of manual, that's for sure (so, hey, maybe the comparison with the Bible actually fits, just not in the way that most people who also don't understand the Bible think). It's far more an examination of the vulnerability and even straight-up pathologies in the PUA community, and does not entirely flatter or spare the author.
Also, you misspelled douchenozzle.
posted by namespan at 9:21 AM on November 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
How many of those women or critics here have actually read The Game? I find a lot of people describe it as a PUA Bible or are reacting to Strauss as if that's what he wrote. I strongly suspect none of those people has even cracked the book open, and are just treating it as a bat-signal for some personal battle or something.
It's pretty damn far from being any kind of manual, that's for sure (so, hey, maybe the comparison with the Bible actually fits, just not in the way that most people who also don't understand the Bible think). It's far more an examination of the vulnerability and even straight-up pathologies in the PUA community, and does not entirely flatter or spare the author.
Also, you misspelled douchenozzle.
posted by namespan at 9:21 AM on November 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
I'm surprised that no one has linked to it already, but XKCD's take on PUA-ing is surprisingly prophetic.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 9:22 AM on November 12, 2015 [32 favorites]
posted by steady-state strawberry at 9:22 AM on November 12, 2015 [32 favorites]
On a shelf near his study, Strauss keeps a framed letter that was sent to him by Phil Collins, the pop star writing to tell the journalist to fuck off, after a negative write-up in Rolling Stone.
Haha, Phil Collins is awesome.
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:25 AM on November 12, 2015 [11 favorites]
Haha, Phil Collins is awesome.
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:25 AM on November 12, 2015 [11 favorites]
The Truth, available in Kindle, paperback, and imitation leather.
posted by Captain Chesapeake at 9:26 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Captain Chesapeake at 9:26 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
strauss and tucker max and roosh v and all the rest of them can go swim in a walled off lake filled with sharks and tigers and scorpions.
posted by nadawi at 9:28 AM on November 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 9:28 AM on November 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
How many of those women or critics here have actually read The Game?
I read it (in imitation leather!). It still surprises me that any of those guys got laid. Who knows how much was Hunter Thompson-esque fictionalizing, though.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 9:29 AM on November 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
I read it (in imitation leather!). It still surprises me that any of those guys got laid. Who knows how much was Hunter Thompson-esque fictionalizing, though.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 9:29 AM on November 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yeah, I read The Game and found it fascinating. It may have popularized PUAistry but that was clearly not its intention. The PUAs themselves come across as emotionally stunted jerks, if I recall correctly.
posted by Jonathan Harford at 9:34 AM on November 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Jonathan Harford at 9:34 AM on November 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
This was also the beginning days of the internet
??? The Game came out in 2005.
The Golden Age of the Internet was 11.
Honestly, just knowing he made enough money off this shit to afford that bathroom makes me want no one to ever give him another dime again.
One likes to hope that he didn't, bought it anyway, and that his "reformation" is a futile attempt to be able to make his mortgage payments.
posted by straight at 9:34 AM on November 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
??? The Game came out in 2005.
The Golden Age of the Internet was 11.
Honestly, just knowing he made enough money off this shit to afford that bathroom makes me want no one to ever give him another dime again.
One likes to hope that he didn't, bought it anyway, and that his "reformation" is a futile attempt to be able to make his mortgage payments.
posted by straight at 9:34 AM on November 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
Nice car, though.
posted by gottabefunky at 9:36 AM on November 12, 2015
posted by gottabefunky at 9:36 AM on November 12, 2015
When I read "Waking Life Espresso guys" I thought it meant guys who drank espresso in Waking Life, and found it odd that I didn't remember any, since I really like that movie.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 9:37 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 9:37 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
I used to work exclusively with men who were trying to get their lives back on track after being exposed to, suckered into and then fleeced by all the PUA bullshit. Here's my teaching, in a nutshell*:
Instead of trying to con the woman into thinking you are irresistible, I want you to create an amazing life, and be the type of man that she naturally finds irresistible.
I do not think that Neil Strauss' new book will help you in any way, shape or form, but it will help Neil Strauss' bank account.
*How it got in a nutshell, I'll never know.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 9:40 AM on November 12, 2015 [8 favorites]
Instead of trying to con the woman into thinking you are irresistible, I want you to create an amazing life, and be the type of man that she naturally finds irresistible.
I do not think that Neil Strauss' new book will help you in any way, shape or form, but it will help Neil Strauss' bank account.
*How it got in a nutshell, I'll never know.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 9:40 AM on November 12, 2015 [8 favorites]
It'll be interesting to see which one he makes more money from: His new book, or the fresh attention being brought to his old book.
posted by clawsoon at 9:41 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 9:41 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
FTFA: "By opening up his psyche to trained therapists for the first time, Strauss learned he had quite an assortment of mental and emotional conditions."
No shit?
posted by wenestvedt at 9:43 AM on November 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
No shit?
posted by wenestvedt at 9:43 AM on November 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
In the CBC interview, he says his revelation was that his mother was "emotionally incestuous"
I was listening to that this morning and it was at that point the interview well and truly jumped the shark and I wondered what the fuck Anna Maria Tremonti of all people was thinking when she decided to have this joker on the show.
posted by Nevin at 9:48 AM on November 12, 2015
I was listening to that this morning and it was at that point the interview well and truly jumped the shark and I wondered what the fuck Anna Maria Tremonti of all people was thinking when she decided to have this joker on the show.
posted by Nevin at 9:48 AM on November 12, 2015
Major Matt Mason Dixon: Here's my teaching, in a nutshell: Instead of trying to con the woman into thinking you are irresistible, I want you to create an amazing life, and be the type of man that she naturally finds irresistible.
Isn't that what pretty much all the "PUA gurus" are saying nowadays? :-)
posted by clawsoon at 9:50 AM on November 12, 2015
Isn't that what pretty much all the "PUA gurus" are saying nowadays? :-)
posted by clawsoon at 9:50 AM on November 12, 2015
Just to back other commenters of this thread up, The Game is a fairly classic morality play/tragedy with the central PUAs almost all falling at the end following the same inexorable logic that lead to their rise. On the other hand it suffers a bit from the "Gordon Gecko" effect where Gecko is definitely a villain but people see him as cool because the highs from a distance look pretty good.
On the other hand people may be confusing The Game with The Rules of the Game which absolutely is a how-to and manual.
posted by Francis at 9:55 AM on November 12, 2015 [8 favorites]
On the other hand people may be confusing The Game with The Rules of the Game which absolutely is a how-to and manual.
posted by Francis at 9:55 AM on November 12, 2015 [8 favorites]
I read it in imitation leather too, and remember being confused because I had thought going in it was some sort of critical examination of the subculture, but it read very much like one of those books where someone goes in critical of the culture and then realizes, hey, these people aren't so bad after all and he was just being closed-minded!
If I remember right, there was a moment of hang-time there where he could have said, "No, seriously, that shit was gross" but instead went with the endorsement money.
By opening up his psyche to trained therapists for the first time, Strauss learned he had quite an assortment of mental and emotional conditions. In short order, he was diagnosed with anxiety syndrome, depressive disorder, two forms of sexual disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.
Maybe this will move us closer to a point where sexual manipulation is in the DSM.
But that The Game is a monstrous contributor to the current shape of rape culture is a fact that does not require reading the book to know.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:56 AM on November 12, 2015 [15 favorites]
If I remember right, there was a moment of hang-time there where he could have said, "No, seriously, that shit was gross" but instead went with the endorsement money.
By opening up his psyche to trained therapists for the first time, Strauss learned he had quite an assortment of mental and emotional conditions. In short order, he was diagnosed with anxiety syndrome, depressive disorder, two forms of sexual disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.
Maybe this will move us closer to a point where sexual manipulation is in the DSM.
But that The Game is a monstrous contributor to the current shape of rape culture is a fact that does not require reading the book to know.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:56 AM on November 12, 2015 [15 favorites]
the pua gurus are also suggesting that rape be legal and that men should video "proof of consent" and plant fake text messages to guard against "untrue" allegations of rape.
posted by nadawi at 9:56 AM on November 12, 2015
posted by nadawi at 9:56 AM on November 12, 2015
I like how the first photo in the Guardian article is all "oh shit I forgot I booked that photographer for today, and also I just told them to come right around the back to our open-air bathroom".
posted by EndsOfInvention at 9:59 AM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by EndsOfInvention at 9:59 AM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Mod note: A few comments deleted, let's not get into a sidebar about who's allowed to comment on the guy? He's a public figure, people who've read that book may have extra stuff to add, this is all fine without attacking each other.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:59 AM on November 12, 2015
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:59 AM on November 12, 2015
Mods, can you remove the link to the Tucker Max book? Seems like a bad idea to pass traffic to it.
posted by ignignokt at 9:59 AM on November 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by ignignokt at 9:59 AM on November 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
Oh, and Neil Strauss growing up is basically his schtick in his fiction - it's basically a conversion narrative.
The Game: Man explores world of hedonistic excess, falls in love, watches it fall apart, and then realises that more down to earth would be better, ending with a moralistic kicker.
Emergency: Man explores world of ultra-rich luxurious excess, is fascinated, watches it fall apart and the downside, and then realises that more down to earth is better, ending with a moralistic kicker.
The Truth: (I assume - I haven't read) The Game: A retrospective with exactly the same moralistic kicker.
posted by Francis at 10:02 AM on November 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
The Game: Man explores world of hedonistic excess, falls in love, watches it fall apart, and then realises that more down to earth would be better, ending with a moralistic kicker.
Emergency: Man explores world of ultra-rich luxurious excess, is fascinated, watches it fall apart and the downside, and then realises that more down to earth is better, ending with a moralistic kicker.
The Truth: (I assume - I haven't read) The Game: A retrospective with exactly the same moralistic kicker.
posted by Francis at 10:02 AM on November 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
Francis: Just to back other commenters of this thread up, The Game is a fairly classic morality play/tragedy with the central PUAs almost all falling at the end following the same inexorable logic that lead to their rise. On the other hand it suffers a bit from the "Gordon Gecko" effect where Gecko is definitely a villain but people see him as cool because the highs from a distance look pretty good.
Having read the book, that's how it came across to me too. In the end, the singles scene near the PUA crash pad all got wise to their "sarging techniques", laying bare the folly of blindly following a script in this cargo cult attempt at human interaction. Not to mention the manipulation and consent issues that go hand-in-hand with this material.
In the end, you weren't going to get a brutally honest takedown of the PUA culture since Strauss went into it Gonzo style, becoming a part of the scene he was writing about.
I put this in the same topic as a gangster movie/novel: fine for entertainment but something you wouldn't want to try in real life.
posted by dr_dank at 10:04 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Having read the book, that's how it came across to me too. In the end, the singles scene near the PUA crash pad all got wise to their "sarging techniques", laying bare the folly of blindly following a script in this cargo cult attempt at human interaction. Not to mention the manipulation and consent issues that go hand-in-hand with this material.
In the end, you weren't going to get a brutally honest takedown of the PUA culture since Strauss went into it Gonzo style, becoming a part of the scene he was writing about.
I put this in the same topic as a gangster movie/novel: fine for entertainment but something you wouldn't want to try in real life.
posted by dr_dank at 10:04 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Redemption narratives are seldom convincing.
Convincing to whom? If you judge by media/publisher attention and people who buy into them, they're very convincing because "we" (the royal we, the societal we) fall for them, pay money for them, go see them when they're made into movies, binge-watch them as TV shows, and vote for politicians (e.g. Ben Carson, maybe?) who use them as the basis of their camapigns. So, yes, in that sense, redemption narratives are super-convincing.
posted by blucevalo at 10:10 AM on November 12, 2015
Convincing to whom? If you judge by media/publisher attention and people who buy into them, they're very convincing because "we" (the royal we, the societal we) fall for them, pay money for them, go see them when they're made into movies, binge-watch them as TV shows, and vote for politicians (e.g. Ben Carson, maybe?) who use them as the basis of their camapigns. So, yes, in that sense, redemption narratives are super-convincing.
posted by blucevalo at 10:10 AM on November 12, 2015
Adding: that's why agents like to tell their scumbag has-been clients to frame their returns from the dead as redemption narratives.
posted by blucevalo at 10:11 AM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by blucevalo at 10:11 AM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
except lots and lots of men have tried it in real life, creating entire branches of the misogynistic manosphere, resulting in great harm. if it's redemption strauss is looking for he can donate all the money to rainn or groups working to reduce date rape. otherwise he can go fuck himself.
posted by nadawi at 10:15 AM on November 12, 2015 [32 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 10:15 AM on November 12, 2015 [32 favorites]
All I know about this guy is that he ghost-wrote Marilyn Manson's autobiography that was published damn near twenty years ago. Apparently The Game is also an autobiography?
If you've written two autobios, you better be someone like Abraham Lincoln or Leonard Nimoy. If you write an autobiography for someone else, you better be Gertrude Stein.
posted by infinitewindow at 10:20 AM on November 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
If you've written two autobios, you better be someone like Abraham Lincoln or Leonard Nimoy. If you write an autobiography for someone else, you better be Gertrude Stein.
posted by infinitewindow at 10:20 AM on November 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
Oh man, Clawsoon, that's a blast from the past.
The Real Social Dynamics guys gave PUA a scientific sounding name and it was off to the races.
It ain't real, it ain't social, and the dynamics are all pretty negative.
Their leader calls himself "Tyler Durden".
That's really all you need to know.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 10:28 AM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
The Real Social Dynamics guys gave PUA a scientific sounding name and it was off to the races.
It ain't real, it ain't social, and the dynamics are all pretty negative.
Their leader calls himself "Tyler Durden".
That's really all you need to know.
posted by Major Matt Mason Dixon at 10:28 AM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
But all this guy's doing is skipping town without paying for the place he's trashed.
Marvelously said. A million favorites for you. This is a perfect analogy.
Also, for real. how do you live with yourself as a writer when you use the "game over" cliché in your article about this?
posted by shmegegge at 10:34 AM on November 12, 2015
Marvelously said. A million favorites for you. This is a perfect analogy.
Also, for real. how do you live with yourself as a writer when you use the "game over" cliché in your article about this?
posted by shmegegge at 10:34 AM on November 12, 2015
"Where do you want to pose with your infant son?"
"How about in front of my SWEET ASS RIDE?"
Fuck this guy.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:34 AM on November 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
"How about in front of my SWEET ASS RIDE?"
Fuck this guy.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:34 AM on November 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
I expect douchebros to douchebro, but am always disappointed when the media gives them a platform and a lot of attention for doing it. See: this guy, the red cups guy, Ben Carson, etc.
posted by emjaybee at 10:36 AM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by emjaybee at 10:36 AM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Somebody surprising on one of the Slate podcasts (Dana Stevens?) recommended it six or eight weeks ago, so I bought The Truth on a whim in an airport. It has since sat untouched on my desk, but I put it in my bag and started reading it on the bus this morning after I saw this thread and was reminded of it.
Act I, which I read on the bus, was mostly about his first few days of sex addiction therapy and how he made the decision to go to it. I don't think that cheating on someone is evidence of sex addiction but that seems to be what people are in for, to produce a "I cheated and now I'm getting better" narrative for their partners. All the women in Act I are caricatures whose appeal is evaluated instantly as For Sex or Not For Sex; hopefully that's a trope that evolves as Strauss's journey leads him to a better place and not just evidence of who he is and how he unconsciously writes. He name drops Orlando Bloom and Rick Rubin as friends who were influencing him and I felt sad that the people who mattered to him were famous 'friends' instead of people he was actually close to.
I didn't love what I read, but it went quickly so I'll probably finish it, and the next section seems like it's going to be about his family and childhood and maybe that will be more interesting. It also looks like I'm carrying around an ostentatious bible-not great.
posted by Kwine at 10:39 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Act I, which I read on the bus, was mostly about his first few days of sex addiction therapy and how he made the decision to go to it. I don't think that cheating on someone is evidence of sex addiction but that seems to be what people are in for, to produce a "I cheated and now I'm getting better" narrative for their partners. All the women in Act I are caricatures whose appeal is evaluated instantly as For Sex or Not For Sex; hopefully that's a trope that evolves as Strauss's journey leads him to a better place and not just evidence of who he is and how he unconsciously writes. He name drops Orlando Bloom and Rick Rubin as friends who were influencing him and I felt sad that the people who mattered to him were famous 'friends' instead of people he was actually close to.
I didn't love what I read, but it went quickly so I'll probably finish it, and the next section seems like it's going to be about his family and childhood and maybe that will be more interesting. It also looks like I'm carrying around an ostentatious bible-not great.
posted by Kwine at 10:39 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
I saw this post some time ago, "Guys, Here’s What It’s Actually Like To Be A Woman". It does a good job establishing the power disparity between the sexes-
When a man interacts with a woman, his greatest fear is sexual rejection and humiliation. This causes him to spend as much time and energy (if not more) on defensive strategies to protect against rejection as he does on mating strategies to attract women.
Women are totally different. In these interactions, they are not much afraid of rejection. Rather, when a woman interacts with a man, she is afraid of being physically harmed or sexually assaulted.
Which, of course is similar to the Margaret Atwood cobbled-together quote, “Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.”
I sent the link to a friend this week, before realizing who the author was. That was a huge surprise.
So what happened with Tucker Max? And does his authorship make this essay suspect? Ah here, a critique of it (also Thought Catalog, sorry).
posted by Apocryphon at 10:43 AM on November 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
When a man interacts with a woman, his greatest fear is sexual rejection and humiliation. This causes him to spend as much time and energy (if not more) on defensive strategies to protect against rejection as he does on mating strategies to attract women.
Women are totally different. In these interactions, they are not much afraid of rejection. Rather, when a woman interacts with a man, she is afraid of being physically harmed or sexually assaulted.
Which, of course is similar to the Margaret Atwood cobbled-together quote, “Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.”
I sent the link to a friend this week, before realizing who the author was. That was a huge surprise.
So what happened with Tucker Max? And does his authorship make this essay suspect? Ah here, a critique of it (also Thought Catalog, sorry).
posted by Apocryphon at 10:43 AM on November 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
The fact that a man is presuming to inform others about what life as a woman is like makes it suspect. That the man is Tucker Max claiming to have changed, only adds insult to injury.
posted by peppermind at 10:55 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by peppermind at 10:55 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Let's not forget that Neil Strauss was also, like a whole ton of other successful PUA, teaching workshops to teach young men how to be predators. So, while the The Game wasn't a pickup manual it helped spread and popularize the techniques.
I read The Game when I was learning about PUA five or six years ago, I remember it being extremely narcissistic, boring, and reprehensible. But there were and still are men that buy it so that they can study it, it still gets checked out of libraries and pirated online.
Strauss's whole thing is manipulative. Buzzfeed has a nice interview with him about the book and at the end he talks about how learning to be a PUA was really beneficial to him. It ends with “I’d probably be alone or in a really unhappy marriage or cheating someway or something; either way I wouldn’t be happy. So either way I’m really grateful for the experience.” And it's like, that's so great about where you think you'd be but you weren't just a PUA you were it's Johnny Appleseed, do you ever think about that at night?
posted by Neronomius at 10:59 AM on November 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
I read The Game when I was learning about PUA five or six years ago, I remember it being extremely narcissistic, boring, and reprehensible. But there were and still are men that buy it so that they can study it, it still gets checked out of libraries and pirated online.
Strauss's whole thing is manipulative. Buzzfeed has a nice interview with him about the book and at the end he talks about how learning to be a PUA was really beneficial to him. It ends with “I’d probably be alone or in a really unhappy marriage or cheating someway or something; either way I wouldn’t be happy. So either way I’m really grateful for the experience.” And it's like, that's so great about where you think you'd be but you weren't just a PUA you were it's Johnny Appleseed, do you ever think about that at night?
posted by Neronomius at 10:59 AM on November 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
He did edit Radiotext(e) for Semiotext(e) […] I don't want him to grow up. I want him to regress back to when he was the Radiotext(e) guy, before the Pick Up Community ruined him
Perhaps it's because I don't pay that much attention, but I'd never actually put together before that those two Strausses were the same guy. It'd be nice if the dude's subsequent career might occasion some retrospective reflection on the part of AK Press and the other publishers who made his bones as a "critic," about whether they'd missed the signs of his, let's say, incipient monstrosity. In certain cool-chasing segments of the positionally-leftist publishing world there's a really marked tendency to fall for charismatic careerist hucksters — and if Strauss really wasn't displaying the recognizable hallmarks of that pattern from day 1, I'd be pretty surprised. Given what we've learned since I severely doubt that there was once a principled and thoughtful past life there for Strauss to "regress" to.
posted by RogerB at 11:01 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Perhaps it's because I don't pay that much attention, but I'd never actually put together before that those two Strausses were the same guy. It'd be nice if the dude's subsequent career might occasion some retrospective reflection on the part of AK Press and the other publishers who made his bones as a "critic," about whether they'd missed the signs of his, let's say, incipient monstrosity. In certain cool-chasing segments of the positionally-leftist publishing world there's a really marked tendency to fall for charismatic careerist hucksters — and if Strauss really wasn't displaying the recognizable hallmarks of that pattern from day 1, I'd be pretty surprised. Given what we've learned since I severely doubt that there was once a principled and thoughtful past life there for Strauss to "regress" to.
posted by RogerB at 11:01 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Neil Strauss and Tucker Max going on their "I'm A Big Grownup Now!" media tours is an insult to the millions of men who became grownups by just thinking and paying attention for half a second and not being self-absorbed, manipulative balls of ego. Fuck this noise.
posted by naju at 11:01 AM on November 12, 2015 [19 favorites]
posted by naju at 11:01 AM on November 12, 2015 [19 favorites]
Also Tucker Max titling a piece "Here's What It's Actually Like To Be A Woman" is rich. Only an actual woman should type those words.
posted by naju at 11:05 AM on November 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by naju at 11:05 AM on November 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
It's almost like they presume their audience don't trust women to honestly or accurately represent their own experiences and therefore need a man to do it for them.
Sort of backfires, because, you know, this is sexist.
posted by maxsparber at 11:06 AM on November 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
Sort of backfires, because, you know, this is sexist.
posted by maxsparber at 11:06 AM on November 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
He is to Elliot Rodgers what Geert Wilders is to Anders Breivik.
posted by colie at 11:07 AM on November 12, 2015
posted by colie at 11:07 AM on November 12, 2015
His reddit ama went over slightly better than Woody Harrelson's.
My conclusion to reading his story between the lines: his family is like stinking rich and he thinks the people who buy his books are smelly peasants.
posted by bukvich at 11:08 AM on November 12, 2015
My conclusion to reading his story between the lines: his family is like stinking rich and he thinks the people who buy his books are smelly peasants.
posted by bukvich at 11:08 AM on November 12, 2015
And the framing of the Tucker Max article is "here is the female experience", as if all women are The Same Person. It's not that much more grown up than his earlier work.
posted by clawsoon at 11:09 AM on November 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by clawsoon at 11:09 AM on November 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
I've once proposed that there should be a word similar to eponysterical "that refers to serendipitous timing of articles." Almost exactly a year ago there was a couple of FPP's by Mark Manson, another former PUA turned anti/counter-PUA author, who had made a transformation and gone on to become one of those internet 'thought leader' types. Both FPPs were not exclusively about gender relations, showing that his subject coverage had broadened, but were still couched with the sort of internet pop sociology, evo psych and broscience (evobropsyence?), bargain bin generalizations, and generally abrasive tone that one would expect from a former PUA-turned motivational speaker type.
At the time, Manson seemed somewhat cleverly subversive- now, he just seems like ahead of the curve. PUA has suffered from a severe backlash, and people in the mainstream are aware of it in a decidedly negative way, so perhaps figures like Neil Strauss and Tucker Max are 'evolving their views' to accommodate new political and cultural realities. Both to go where the money is, and perhaps to revise their earlier "bad boy" reputations into something more palatable for the public.
It is really fascinating to see the cultural arms race between popular progressivism and reactionary attempts to co-opt 'PC language' taking place right in front of the internet.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:11 AM on November 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
At the time, Manson seemed somewhat cleverly subversive- now, he just seems like ahead of the curve. PUA has suffered from a severe backlash, and people in the mainstream are aware of it in a decidedly negative way, so perhaps figures like Neil Strauss and Tucker Max are 'evolving their views' to accommodate new political and cultural realities. Both to go where the money is, and perhaps to revise their earlier "bad boy" reputations into something more palatable for the public.
It is really fascinating to see the cultural arms race between popular progressivism and reactionary attempts to co-opt 'PC language' taking place right in front of the internet.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:11 AM on November 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
If you're worried someone you know may have fallen for some of this PUA crap, what should you look out for? What can you do to help? Are there any resources for victims out there? This might be better as an AskMefi question, but this stuff is kind of terrifying to me. No one likes thinking they can be manipulated like this, and that's such a big part of what makes these scams work (like any con). But no one's completely immune to social manipulation, so you can only defend yourself so well short of shutting yourself off to the outside world. It blows my mind people actually talk about and plan this stuff so deliberately. It's creepy in a very visceral way to me. Ugh.
posted by saulgoodman at 11:14 AM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by saulgoodman at 11:14 AM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
I find it weird that people are bringing up Elliot Rodger since he was very anti-PUA and a member of PUAHate forums.
posted by I-baLL at 11:17 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by I-baLL at 11:17 AM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
elliot rodger and strauss are part of the manosphere and the distances between puas/mras/red pill etc aren't as broad as their participants would have you believe.
posted by nadawi at 11:20 AM on November 12, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 11:20 AM on November 12, 2015 [11 favorites]
Over 70 comments and nobody has yet said "Neil Strauss, you have Lost the Game"?
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:21 AM on November 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:21 AM on November 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
Rodger was part of that community because PUA failed him, not because he disagreed with their premises or goals.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:21 AM on November 12, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 11:21 AM on November 12, 2015 [14 favorites]
...and he was pissed that he couldn't even return "The Game" for a full refund.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:23 AM on November 12, 2015
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:23 AM on November 12, 2015
This is what I got out of the Guardian article:
Old Strauss: Use these techniques to get attractive women. You know it works because I got this super attractive woman.
New Strauss: Stop judging yourself by how attractive the woman your with is. Don't think of women as objects to "get" and just be a better person. You know it works because I got this super attractive woman.
posted by yeolcoatl at 11:23 AM on November 12, 2015 [18 favorites]
Old Strauss: Use these techniques to get attractive women. You know it works because I got this super attractive woman.
New Strauss: Stop judging yourself by how attractive the woman your with is. Don't think of women as objects to "get" and just be a better person. You know it works because I got this super attractive woman.
posted by yeolcoatl at 11:23 AM on November 12, 2015 [18 favorites]
If you're worried someone you know may have fallen for some of this PUA crap, what should you look out for? What can you do to help?
It has a pretty straight history: from Esalen & Fritz Perls -> Richard Bandler -> Ross Jeffries -> its modern guise.
There is a core of immense value under it which has been diluted and if you strip mine it without giving the modern PUA seminar and PUA media even one dollar you can glean valuable stuff. But it is a very roundabout way. You can get everything of value in a vastly more efficient manner. Appeal to their common sense if they have some.
posted by bukvich at 11:25 AM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
It has a pretty straight history: from Esalen & Fritz Perls -> Richard Bandler -> Ross Jeffries -> its modern guise.
There is a core of immense value under it which has been diluted and if you strip mine it without giving the modern PUA seminar and PUA media even one dollar you can glean valuable stuff. But it is a very roundabout way. You can get everything of value in a vastly more efficient manner. Appeal to their common sense if they have some.
posted by bukvich at 11:25 AM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
PUA failed him
It nourished his hatred of women, whether he'd been able to have sex with them or not.
posted by colie at 11:30 AM on November 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
It nourished his hatred of women, whether he'd been able to have sex with them or not.
posted by colie at 11:30 AM on November 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
If you're worried someone you know may have fallen for some of this PUA crap, what should you look out for? What can you do to help? Are there any resources for victims out there?
The way I see it, PUA is similar to conspiracy theories and new religions/cults - it claims to offer an alternative worldview that appeals to the needs to the believer. So basically, the core is that you need to demonstrate 1) that worldview is wrong and 2) their needs are better met elsewhere.
Any fringe branch of thought contains enough truth to gain adherents. (The whole manosphere thing, in fact all of the neoreactionary stuff, claims to be speaking truth to power against a PC establishment that silences them.) I doubt there's much validity to the social theories in PUA, given that it's again based on misogyny and evobropsyence, but some of the social practices seem to be basically cribbing from therapies to reduce social anxiety and to approach attractive people. At least the initial basic stuff. It's just couched in misogyny and silly terminology. So to get someone to reject PUA, show them that they can find romantic success without it.
One reason why PUA has caught on is that young men are embarrassed to seek out whatever dating coach services that predated it, not to mention general resources for dealing with social anxiety. I mean, are there any popular programs or figures you can think of? Dr. Phil? Tony Robbins? It seems to me that in general, the self-help industry in America is full of these savvy marketers who target their specific demographics, so a lot of PUA types are capitalizing upon young male frustrations. They find Neil Strauss or Tucker Max compelling because "hey, this guy writes just like I talk!" and there you go.
Not to mention, given that mental health is stigmatized in this country, people are less likely to seek support for social issues, and thus join these fringe, DIY pop psych ones, especially since they feel they're among brethren.
Of course, "The best way to drive out the devil, if he will not yield to texts of Scripture, is to jeer and flout him, for he cannot bear scorn." To some extent, some PUA parlance such as negging or peacocking are already present in the mainstream, and people already recognize it for being douchey and ridiculous. PUA has been mocked for a long time on the internet, and not even by places like Jezebel or We Hunted the Mammoth- the misanthrope goons at Something Awful have been doing it for a decade, at least.
That said, this FPP and discussion should be focusing on how or why the post-PUA (second stage PUA? reformed PUA?) of Tucker Max and Neill Strauss are wrong, since they seem to be upping the truth component of their messages. It's somewhat more subtle to counter than 'traditional' PUA.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:36 AM on November 12, 2015 [9 favorites]
The way I see it, PUA is similar to conspiracy theories and new religions/cults - it claims to offer an alternative worldview that appeals to the needs to the believer. So basically, the core is that you need to demonstrate 1) that worldview is wrong and 2) their needs are better met elsewhere.
Any fringe branch of thought contains enough truth to gain adherents. (The whole manosphere thing, in fact all of the neoreactionary stuff, claims to be speaking truth to power against a PC establishment that silences them.) I doubt there's much validity to the social theories in PUA, given that it's again based on misogyny and evobropsyence, but some of the social practices seem to be basically cribbing from therapies to reduce social anxiety and to approach attractive people. At least the initial basic stuff. It's just couched in misogyny and silly terminology. So to get someone to reject PUA, show them that they can find romantic success without it.
One reason why PUA has caught on is that young men are embarrassed to seek out whatever dating coach services that predated it, not to mention general resources for dealing with social anxiety. I mean, are there any popular programs or figures you can think of? Dr. Phil? Tony Robbins? It seems to me that in general, the self-help industry in America is full of these savvy marketers who target their specific demographics, so a lot of PUA types are capitalizing upon young male frustrations. They find Neil Strauss or Tucker Max compelling because "hey, this guy writes just like I talk!" and there you go.
Not to mention, given that mental health is stigmatized in this country, people are less likely to seek support for social issues, and thus join these fringe, DIY pop psych ones, especially since they feel they're among brethren.
Of course, "The best way to drive out the devil, if he will not yield to texts of Scripture, is to jeer and flout him, for he cannot bear scorn." To some extent, some PUA parlance such as negging or peacocking are already present in the mainstream, and people already recognize it for being douchey and ridiculous. PUA has been mocked for a long time on the internet, and not even by places like Jezebel or We Hunted the Mammoth- the misanthrope goons at Something Awful have been doing it for a decade, at least.
That said, this FPP and discussion should be focusing on how or why the post-PUA (second stage PUA? reformed PUA?) of Tucker Max and Neill Strauss are wrong, since they seem to be upping the truth component of their messages. It's somewhat more subtle to counter than 'traditional' PUA.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:36 AM on November 12, 2015 [9 favorites]
Apocryphon makes several excellent points, especially that 'post-PUA' is as dangerous as the original PUA message, since the messengers are the same sociopaths they always were; they've just reformulated their poison to sell to a wider demographic.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:48 AM on November 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:48 AM on November 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
Remember when Tucker Max did this exact same thing? Went around to all the bro-mags and announced he was all grown up now?
I'd stopped paying attention to him well before that. I'd read some of his posts when I first heard about him, and at first it was like he was some recurring SNL sketch character who liked to brag about all the wild and crazy times he had and would inevitably end up overdisclosing and revealing what an utter fuck-up he is. In other words, mostly self-deprecating. And then he got into this story about dating a state beauty queen and mostly going out of his way to embarrass someone who in no way deserved it, and it wasn't even remotely funny any more. I was pretty happy that his movie failed.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:57 AM on November 12, 2015
I'd stopped paying attention to him well before that. I'd read some of his posts when I first heard about him, and at first it was like he was some recurring SNL sketch character who liked to brag about all the wild and crazy times he had and would inevitably end up overdisclosing and revealing what an utter fuck-up he is. In other words, mostly self-deprecating. And then he got into this story about dating a state beauty queen and mostly going out of his way to embarrass someone who in no way deserved it, and it wasn't even remotely funny any more. I was pretty happy that his movie failed.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:57 AM on November 12, 2015
One reason why PUA has caught on is that young men are embarrassed to seek out whatever dating coach services that predated it, not to mention general resources for dealing with social anxiety. I mean, are there any popular programs or figures you can think of? Dr. Phil? Tony Robbins? It seems to me that in general, the self-help industry in America is full of these savvy marketers who target their specific demographics, so a lot of PUA types are capitalizing upon young male frustrations.
And it's not just young men: Watch Dr. Phil any of the day of the week and you will see a carnival of unspeakably awful advice. But it's in the language the demo speaks, and to a large degree it's telling that demo what it wants to hear. You're getting pushed around, here's one weird trick that takes the place of years of hard work, etc. No one knows anything, so they cling to people who sound like they do.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:58 AM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
And it's not just young men: Watch Dr. Phil any of the day of the week and you will see a carnival of unspeakably awful advice. But it's in the language the demo speaks, and to a large degree it's telling that demo what it wants to hear. You're getting pushed around, here's one weird trick that takes the place of years of hard work, etc. No one knows anything, so they cling to people who sound like they do.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:58 AM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
I guess one of the downsides of turning over the rocks of the patriarchy is the skittering horrors like PUAs that get uncovered. This particular horror has decided to skitter a little less and has put on a nice necktie. Not that it's much help to all the women who have been targeted by him and the army of fellow horrors he nurtured so lovingly. Women who've felt afraid, or gone along with a sketchy guy out of fear, or had their night ruined, or been stalked, or even been raped by men taught to see them as nothing but belt notches. Women who went home and cried after being negged and harassed and groped. Women who have been told, yet again, that they're not people in the eyes of a lot of men, that they're objects to obtain and throw away.
I feel like, when we discuss these guys, we really need to be talking about that.
posted by emjaybee at 12:00 PM on November 12, 2015 [24 favorites]
I feel like, when we discuss these guys, we really need to be talking about that.
posted by emjaybee at 12:00 PM on November 12, 2015 [24 favorites]
It is so glaring that the only thing we know about Ingrid is that she's a model and he cheated on her, then married her, and they had a kid. That's it.
We don't even know if she's the one who could fix up the Corvette and that's why he's keeping it around.
Did they even ask Strauss about Ingrid? Did he seriously have nothing to say about his own wife's character?
Not that I particularly want to know – in The Guardian article he veers straight into victim-blaming territory: “I think that a lot of guys who read The Game, they think that they’re fooling or tricking women. But most women are smart enough to know exactly what you’re doing. They just might like you enough to go along with it. I think one of the misconceptions is that someone else can be tricked into doing something they don’t want to." Yeah well fuck you, no one knows when we're being lied to, that's called breaking a person's trust. Not that anyone except Strauss exists in his universe.
posted by fraula at 12:01 PM on November 12, 2015 [8 favorites]
We don't even know if she's the one who could fix up the Corvette and that's why he's keeping it around.
Did they even ask Strauss about Ingrid? Did he seriously have nothing to say about his own wife's character?
Not that I particularly want to know – in The Guardian article he veers straight into victim-blaming territory: “I think that a lot of guys who read The Game, they think that they’re fooling or tricking women. But most women are smart enough to know exactly what you’re doing. They just might like you enough to go along with it. I think one of the misconceptions is that someone else can be tricked into doing something they don’t want to." Yeah well fuck you, no one knows when we're being lied to, that's called breaking a person's trust. Not that anyone except Strauss exists in his universe.
posted by fraula at 12:01 PM on November 12, 2015 [8 favorites]
Ingrid didn't want to be interviewed. It's possible that she has made it clear to Neil that she doesn't want to be talked about, either. That would be a potential innocent explanation.
posted by clawsoon at 12:03 PM on November 12, 2015
posted by clawsoon at 12:03 PM on November 12, 2015
Neil Strauss: I think one of the misconceptions is that someone else can be tricked into doing something they don’t want to.
I'm having trouble reading this as anything but straight-up rape denial. (Like, does he not think coercive sex or non-violent date rape are real?)
posted by naju at 12:05 PM on November 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
I'm having trouble reading this as anything but straight-up rape denial. (Like, does he not think coercive sex or non-violent date rape are real?)
posted by naju at 12:05 PM on November 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
I was pretty happy that his movie failed.
i will never stop being sad that Logan from Gilmore Girls was playing the Tucker Max part
posted by Kitteh at 12:12 PM on November 12, 2015
i will never stop being sad that Logan from Gilmore Girls was playing the Tucker Max part
posted by Kitteh at 12:12 PM on November 12, 2015
Thinking through a bit further - the idea and psychology of negging is that the man tears the woman down as much as possible (in a subtle, plausible-denial sort of way, with some element of "teasing") and the woman feels vulnerable and down about herself in the moment, unconsciously or otherwise. Then she's grateful that this man who has pinpointed her flaws will deign to take her home and give her attention. To the extent that works, it's playing around with the self-esteem of people who are broken in some way. "You don't really want to sleep with me, but here's a hack to actually make this about regaining some self-esteem you just lost." That may not be rape in the legal sense, but it's well within rape culture. I think there are probably some women who see through this completely and still decide to go along with it, but they are few and far between, and anything would've worked just as well - a simple hello and normal chat.
posted by naju at 12:22 PM on November 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by naju at 12:22 PM on November 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
strauss is still suggesting that inexperienced young men read the game.
posted by nadawi at 12:25 PM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 12:25 PM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
naju: To the extent that works, it's playing around with the self-esteem of people who are broken in some way.
It's a great way to connect broken people with broken people, people who (on the one hand) mistake sex for self-worth and (on the other) mistake anxiety for love.
posted by clawsoon at 12:30 PM on November 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
It's a great way to connect broken people with broken people, people who (on the one hand) mistake sex for self-worth and (on the other) mistake anxiety for love.
posted by clawsoon at 12:30 PM on November 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
reflection on the part of AK Press and the other publishers who made his bones as a "critic"
Just to correct my own Google-induced mistake: AK Press is blameless here, and I should've referred to Semiotexte (which published him as an undergrad, sheesh) and the Village Voice/Rolling Stone music-writing nexus that set the just-graduated budding sociopath up as a critic
posted by RogerB at 12:32 PM on November 12, 2015
Just to correct my own Google-induced mistake: AK Press is blameless here, and I should've referred to Semiotexte (which published him as an undergrad, sheesh) and the Village Voice/Rolling Stone music-writing nexus that set the just-graduated budding sociopath up as a critic
posted by RogerB at 12:32 PM on November 12, 2015
In the end, the singles scene near the PUA crash pad all got wise to their "sarging techniques", laying bare the folly of blindly following a script in this cargo cult attempt at human interaction. Not to mention the manipulation and consent issues that go hand-in-hand with this material.
In the end, you weren't going to get a brutally honest takedown of the PUA culture since Strauss went into it Gonzo style, becoming a part of the scene he was writing about.
If you write embedded journalism about the Mafia, during which time you murder some folks, but then write about how empty and pathetic are the lives of the Mafiosi, and how you moved on from that way of life, you are still a murderer!
What does he have to say about all the women he treated like shit and taught other dudes to treat like shit? Nothing that I can see in these interviews.
His "repentance" is all, "I thought I was cool but realized I was actually pathetic," and not at all, "I hurt a lot of women and realized I should stop doing that."
posted by straight at 12:35 PM on November 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
In the end, you weren't going to get a brutally honest takedown of the PUA culture since Strauss went into it Gonzo style, becoming a part of the scene he was writing about.
If you write embedded journalism about the Mafia, during which time you murder some folks, but then write about how empty and pathetic are the lives of the Mafiosi, and how you moved on from that way of life, you are still a murderer!
What does he have to say about all the women he treated like shit and taught other dudes to treat like shit? Nothing that I can see in these interviews.
His "repentance" is all, "I thought I was cool but realized I was actually pathetic," and not at all, "I hurt a lot of women and realized I should stop doing that."
posted by straight at 12:35 PM on November 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
in fact, in his recent ama a woman (former) "pua trainer" asked how to trust men again after seeing the worst of what that community offers and he responded that her inability to trust had nothing to do with the pua community but childhood trauma. he gives not a single rats ass about the women he's helped hurt. hell, he also says he wife didn't get complete honesty from him about his cheating until reading his new book. this is more of the same from him. there is no redemption here.
posted by nadawi at 12:40 PM on November 12, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 12:40 PM on November 12, 2015 [14 favorites]
In the Guardian article linked in the OP, he even says women aren't fooled by PUAs, they're just ignoring the d'baggery because they like the guys enough to overlook it.
He doesn't even understand how to be sorry or what to be sorry for.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:23 PM on November 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
He doesn't even understand how to be sorry or what to be sorry for.
posted by Lyn Never at 1:23 PM on November 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
His comment on both books, from his website:
posted by clawsoon at 1:36 PM on November 12, 2015
The Game leads to The Truth.Then he goes on to sell his new book as "the best, most important book I’ve written". Still as manipulative as ever (just look at his front page - "A Publishing Lawyer Warned Me Not To Do This!"), but I think he's realized that the real money is in manipulating men into buying his stuff, rather than manipulating women into having sex with him.
That’s why one is designed like a black bible and the other like a white bible.
In the media, The Game seems to be portrayed as the douchebag handbook by those who haven’t read it.
In real life, as all of us know here, The Game is simply the story of my journey through the seduction community and the characters in it. ... So it would be impossible for me to ever renounce The Game as a book. It was a part of my life.
posted by clawsoon at 1:36 PM on November 12, 2015
Fuck this clown and his boring bullshit redemption.
posted by Artw at 1:54 PM on November 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 1:54 PM on November 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
Narcissist: I used to love myself, but I realized I was doing it for the wrong reasons. Now I love myself for the right reasons, and you should, too.
I think I've said it before somewhere, but it's still true: my greatest hope for these taint biscuits is that they someday have a moment of perspective where they see themselves as they actually are.
posted by Mooski at 1:59 PM on November 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think I've said it before somewhere, but it's still true: my greatest hope for these taint biscuits is that they someday have a moment of perspective where they see themselves as they actually are.
posted by Mooski at 1:59 PM on November 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
IMHO the value in that Tucker Max article is accessibility to douchenozzle bros and obnoxious trilby-wearing chan-dwelling misogynists. I have no idea how (if at all) effective pieces like his are at making any of them reconsider their views or value systems, but however much it is, it's an infinity more than any well-informed and nuanced feminist writing could achieve. The desired target audience would just dismiss it outright, whereas Max and his ilk have credibility among them.
I've said this before, but a single piece of 101-level cautiously feminist-leaning writing that still has tons of problems, but might actually get read and understood is a lot more useful than a hundred bell hooks essays that won't.
I'm a pragmatist: I see anything that gets previously oblivious guys thinking of women as people as a net win. It's just a first step, but hopefully it'll make a subset of the desired readership more receptive to better, and better-informed, writing on the topic.
posted by jklaiho at 2:05 PM on November 12, 2015
I've said this before, but a single piece of 101-level cautiously feminist-leaning writing that still has tons of problems, but might actually get read and understood is a lot more useful than a hundred bell hooks essays that won't.
I'm a pragmatist: I see anything that gets previously oblivious guys thinking of women as people as a net win. It's just a first step, but hopefully it'll make a subset of the desired readership more receptive to better, and better-informed, writing on the topic.
posted by jklaiho at 2:05 PM on November 12, 2015
Redemption narratives are seldom convincing.
Well, the louder you announce your redemption, the less convincing it seems.
posted by FJT at 2:08 PM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well, the louder you announce your redemption, the less convincing it seems.
posted by FJT at 2:08 PM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
that entire tucker max piece is evopsych babble that does little to actually disagree with the shit being peddled all over the manosphere.
posted by nadawi at 2:22 PM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 2:22 PM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
If you've written two autobios, you better be someone like Abraham Lincoln or Leonard Nimoy
...Leonard Nimoy?
posted by Hoopo at 2:28 PM on November 12, 2015
...Leonard Nimoy?
posted by Hoopo at 2:28 PM on November 12, 2015
that entire tucker max piece is evopsych babble that does little to actually disagree with the shit being peddled all over the manosphere.
Compared to the thinking I've had the distinct displeasure of encountering IRL in the past, it's borderline revolutionary though. For example, that thought experiment about imagining yourself as a gay man surrounded by physically threatening gay men in a bar? Max didn't invent it; I first saw it on (the feminist side of) Twitter some years back, and in the couple of occasions I've had to resort to using it to try and hammer even a glimmer of understanding into one guy or another, they didn't have a comeback. I was shocked at how effective it was at making them empathize even for a moment, and I was able to use it as a jumping-off point for getting them to consider some less problematic arguments.
Simplistic and flawed thinking, applied carefully, can definitely do some good even if it perpetuates some of the bad.
posted by jklaiho at 2:36 PM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Compared to the thinking I've had the distinct displeasure of encountering IRL in the past, it's borderline revolutionary though. For example, that thought experiment about imagining yourself as a gay man surrounded by physically threatening gay men in a bar? Max didn't invent it; I first saw it on (the feminist side of) Twitter some years back, and in the couple of occasions I've had to resort to using it to try and hammer even a glimmer of understanding into one guy or another, they didn't have a comeback. I was shocked at how effective it was at making them empathize even for a moment, and I was able to use it as a jumping-off point for getting them to consider some less problematic arguments.
Simplistic and flawed thinking, applied carefully, can definitely do some good even if it perpetuates some of the bad.
posted by jklaiho at 2:36 PM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
but all the parts about women's flawed view of their own attractiveness and evolving to consider birth control and competing for men and mate stealing through gossip and not wanting to get pregnant because it makes them less attractive to men, etc - it really comes off as 'no, no, disrespect women in this way to turn on the faucet of pussy!' and coming from tucker max, specifically? no. that's not a net good in the world.
posted by nadawi at 2:44 PM on November 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 2:44 PM on November 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
Redemption narratives are seldom convincing.
Paging Dr. Carson. Dr. Carson to the Fox interview desk...
posted by Chuffy at 2:44 PM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Paging Dr. Carson. Dr. Carson to the Fox interview desk...
posted by Chuffy at 2:44 PM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
it really comes off as 'no, no, disrespect women in this way to turn on the faucet of pussy!' and coming from tucker max, specifically? no. that's not a net good in the world.
Agreed. But the types of dudes I'm thinking about already believe those things (and worse), but don't believe the better bits. Those I'm hoping will be the ones that stick.
posted by jklaiho at 2:53 PM on November 12, 2015
Agreed. But the types of dudes I'm thinking about already believe those things (and worse), but don't believe the better bits. Those I'm hoping will be the ones that stick.
posted by jklaiho at 2:53 PM on November 12, 2015
then i guess we just have to disagree about that.
posted by nadawi at 2:56 PM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by nadawi at 2:56 PM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
At best the end result is a flood of dudes who "understand you and get it" but really really don't. Is that the best we're aiming for here?
posted by naju at 2:58 PM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by naju at 2:58 PM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
I love redemption narratives, but this obviously isn't one. It's like the parable of the prodigal son, if the prodigal son had come home and said, "Oh dad, spending all your money was a real growth experience but was also weirdly rough on me in some ways I didn't expect - I completely don't care about how you've been managing on the farm without me, so please don't waste my time talking about that and deal with your personal issues in your own time - but anyway I've really grown and blossomed and suffered and so I give you permission to give me the rest of your money now and also to kill the fatted calf."
posted by Aravis76 at 3:03 PM on November 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Aravis76 at 3:03 PM on November 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
At best the end result is a flood of dudes who "understand you and really get it" but really really don't. Is that really the best we're aiming for here?
In my experience, that would already be a significant leap forward for a lot of people. Definitely not enough, but a first step that some of them can be convinced into taking, and hopefully more steps will follow. Pragmatism: I'll take the small gains where I can get them, especially since I don't know of a way of guiding them towards bigger gains when they're ideologically completely opposed to me.
That said, I understand and sympathize with the more principled standpoint where this just isn't sufficient.
posted by jklaiho at 3:08 PM on November 12, 2015
In my experience, that would already be a significant leap forward for a lot of people. Definitely not enough, but a first step that some of them can be convinced into taking, and hopefully more steps will follow. Pragmatism: I'll take the small gains where I can get them, especially since I don't know of a way of guiding them towards bigger gains when they're ideologically completely opposed to me.
That said, I understand and sympathize with the more principled standpoint where this just isn't sufficient.
posted by jklaiho at 3:08 PM on November 12, 2015
The Game had such a clear narrative arc I just flat-out stopped believing it and read it as fiction starting about halfway through. As fiction, the book isn't bad, sort of a half-measure Lolita in that we're seeing the world through the mind of a witty despicable narcissist whose behavior makes a complete lie of his high self-regard (and whose inconsistencies and exaggerations mark him as an obviously unreliable narrator, like the bit where he claims he had 10 girlfriends).
As non-fiction? It's vile and we should stop giving this man money and attention.
posted by Ndwright at 4:02 PM on November 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
As non-fiction? It's vile and we should stop giving this man money and attention.
posted by Ndwright at 4:02 PM on November 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
... People wanted to build a relationship with this guy in any way shape or form? At least Mark Mason had the classic "Fuck no or fuck yes" line that gave me food for thought. This douchebro has... A nice car? A hot wife?
This guy can go bask in a steam room full of his own shit. And I'm a male individual who read some of that PUA toxic garbage (spoiler alert: none of it worked nearly as well as actually wanting to spend time and listen to someone)
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 5:05 PM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
This guy can go bask in a steam room full of his own shit. And I'm a male individual who read some of that PUA toxic garbage (spoiler alert: none of it worked nearly as well as actually wanting to spend time and listen to someone)
posted by thebotanyofsouls at 5:05 PM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
I have zero interest in either of these pickup dudes, but I will say this for the Tucker Max Thought Catalog article: as a woman, until he got to the beauty-apple-low-fertility section, I can't disagree with what he said from our perspective.* That is really how it goes. I seriously wonder if some woman wrote it under his name, that's how much I agreed with it. Maybe his co-author was doing a spectacularly good job, I dunno.
* that's at the point where I started rolling my eyes and wandering off.
Quoted for emphasis:
* "Think about how weird that whole situation is: to be sexually attracted to beings that could so easily do irreparable physical harm to you. Think about the anxiety that internal contradiction could create on a daily basis. For women who are on the more anxious and delicate side, think about the raw physical courage it must take just to go out and meet men. If she pushes when you pull, your question shouldn’t be, “Why won’t she have sex with me?” It should be, “Why would she ever put herself in a situation of sexual vulnerability with any guy?”
* The psychological research, for instance, shows that, from a woman’s point of view, most guys she meets will be less kind, less agreeable, less empathic, less conscientious, less reliable, less clean—less everything really—than she and her friends are. Even if she accepts those sex differences, she still has to wrangle with the fact that many mental illnesses and personality disorders are more common among men (the more dangerous ones no less). These male-dominated disorders include alcoholism, drug addiction, autism, schizophrenia, narcissism, white-collar sociopathy, and criminal psychopathy. All of which make each random encounter with a man less likely to end in love and more likely to end with a fight-or-flight response.
* Simply put, her experience is that the worst guys come straight at her while the best guys are nowhere to be seen.
Women aren’t being ambiguous and mysterious and elusive because they’re “playing games” or “fucking with your head.” They’re just instinctively trying to reduce the risk of provoking harassment or stalking or violent retaliation.
* Women are trying to do the best they can to reject you without humiliating you. The more experienced and confident they are, the better they are at rejecting you obviously enough that you go away but not so obviously that you’re ashamed in front of your friends and other women. But it’s not their responsibility to reject you in the way that would be least costly to you; it’s your responsibility to take the hint as best you can and go away."
I find it terrifying that in 2015, apparently men still need to figure out that women have souls and are human beings too. And, y'know, have good reason for not just jumping on a dude's cock upon first meeting him in a bar or whatever. Oh, and of course there's a link to an article on psycho exs right under it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:18 PM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
* that's at the point where I started rolling my eyes and wandering off.
Quoted for emphasis:
* "Think about how weird that whole situation is: to be sexually attracted to beings that could so easily do irreparable physical harm to you. Think about the anxiety that internal contradiction could create on a daily basis. For women who are on the more anxious and delicate side, think about the raw physical courage it must take just to go out and meet men. If she pushes when you pull, your question shouldn’t be, “Why won’t she have sex with me?” It should be, “Why would she ever put herself in a situation of sexual vulnerability with any guy?”
* The psychological research, for instance, shows that, from a woman’s point of view, most guys she meets will be less kind, less agreeable, less empathic, less conscientious, less reliable, less clean—less everything really—than she and her friends are. Even if she accepts those sex differences, she still has to wrangle with the fact that many mental illnesses and personality disorders are more common among men (the more dangerous ones no less). These male-dominated disorders include alcoholism, drug addiction, autism, schizophrenia, narcissism, white-collar sociopathy, and criminal psychopathy. All of which make each random encounter with a man less likely to end in love and more likely to end with a fight-or-flight response.
* Simply put, her experience is that the worst guys come straight at her while the best guys are nowhere to be seen.
Women aren’t being ambiguous and mysterious and elusive because they’re “playing games” or “fucking with your head.” They’re just instinctively trying to reduce the risk of provoking harassment or stalking or violent retaliation.
* Women are trying to do the best they can to reject you without humiliating you. The more experienced and confident they are, the better they are at rejecting you obviously enough that you go away but not so obviously that you’re ashamed in front of your friends and other women. But it’s not their responsibility to reject you in the way that would be least costly to you; it’s your responsibility to take the hint as best you can and go away."
I find it terrifying that in 2015, apparently men still need to figure out that women have souls and are human beings too. And, y'know, have good reason for not just jumping on a dude's cock upon first meeting him in a bar or whatever. Oh, and of course there's a link to an article on psycho exs right under it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:18 PM on November 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Strauss is so absurdly lacking in self awareness and obviousness, it is actually kind of hilarious. Consider The Game where he discovers that one can go to places that single women freuqent, talk to them and hookup. Rather than attribute his success to talking to a lot of women, alcohol and the hormones of youth he imagines that he and his pals have developed some secret technique that has transformed them into a tribe of pickup artists. Ultimately of course he ends up in a series of empty and short lived relationships, the most manipulative of the PUA's are his "friends" and for some reason these friendships are not fulfilling.
posted by humanfont at 6:39 PM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by humanfont at 6:39 PM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
The RedPill bros are calling him a sell-out. So thre's that at least.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 8:18 PM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 8:18 PM on November 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
I was just listening to that CBC interview now, I dunno. I think his take on his early childhood sounds plausible. Distressed, volatile mother, inappropriately imposing her needs on her kid (until she cut him off for drawing some boundaries about that just recently, he says)… he said something interesting, about how being her confidante through her divorce, he now thinks, was "falsely empowering". I guess he took his mother's side, against his dad's - lacked a same-gender role model, probably. Ending up both anxious and bold, and probably lost, and resenting his mom at the same time that he organized himself around anticipating her… cheap psychology yeah, but that actually sounds like a perfect recipe for a commitment-phobic PUA guru, might be true enough.
Shame he's insisted on trying to work out his issues in such a public and impactful way.
posted by cotton dress sock at 12:56 AM on November 13, 2015
Shame he's insisted on trying to work out his issues in such a public and impactful way.
posted by cotton dress sock at 12:56 AM on November 13, 2015
I just read that Tucker Max piece.
Why does [the woman's point of view] matter? As a man, it is impossible to be better at mating until you understand the subjective experience of a woman, because it is fundamentally different than yours in many ways. If you can account for those differences, you will be well on your way to increased success because most men spend zero time thinking about this.
This is not going to improve or change anyone's values. All that will happen, at best, is that some guy will ineptly try to imitate someone with empathy for a while, realise that there are women who still won't sleep with him, and return to garden variety sociopathy. This is the worst attempt to persuade misognyists to be nicer to women that I've ever seen - I prefer "care about women because your mothers!!! your sisters!!!" to "care about women because your mating success depends on it".
posted by Aravis76 at 1:11 AM on November 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
Why does [the woman's point of view] matter? As a man, it is impossible to be better at mating until you understand the subjective experience of a woman, because it is fundamentally different than yours in many ways. If you can account for those differences, you will be well on your way to increased success because most men spend zero time thinking about this.
This is not going to improve or change anyone's values. All that will happen, at best, is that some guy will ineptly try to imitate someone with empathy for a while, realise that there are women who still won't sleep with him, and return to garden variety sociopathy. This is the worst attempt to persuade misognyists to be nicer to women that I've ever seen - I prefer "care about women because your mothers!!! your sisters!!!" to "care about women because your mating success depends on it".
posted by Aravis76 at 1:11 AM on November 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
Yeah, that was kind of sickening to read. I could only make it through a bit of that.
posted by cotton dress sock at 1:22 AM on November 13, 2015
posted by cotton dress sock at 1:22 AM on November 13, 2015
All that will happen, at best, is that some guy will ineptly try to imitate someone with empathy for a while, realise that there are women who still won't sleep with him, and return to garden variety sociopathy. This is the worst attempt to persuade misognyists to be nicer to women that I've ever seen - I prefer "care about women because your mothers!!! your sisters!!!" to "care about women because your mating success depends on it".
I'm going to disagree with you there. This is an invitation for dudebros to take on the radical idea that women are human even if their motivations are less than pure when they do it. Whereas "Care about women because your mothers!!! your sisters!!!" is on the other hand about guarding the girls who act rightly if you can be the judge of what's right. The one has the potential to be radically transformative (although the success rate will admittedly be low).
posted by Francis at 3:36 AM on November 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm going to disagree with you there. This is an invitation for dudebros to take on the radical idea that women are human even if their motivations are less than pure when they do it. Whereas "Care about women because your mothers!!! your sisters!!!" is on the other hand about guarding the girls who act rightly if you can be the judge of what's right. The one has the potential to be radically transformative (although the success rate will admittedly be low).
posted by Francis at 3:36 AM on November 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is an invitation for dudebros to take on the radical idea that women are human even if their motivations are less than pure when they do it.
I don't know that I'd call any explanation that defines women as "fundamentally different" while simply encouraging a different set of buttons to push to get sex as thinking of women as human.
posted by Gygesringtone at 6:15 AM on November 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
I don't know that I'd call any explanation that defines women as "fundamentally different" while simply encouraging a different set of buttons to push to get sex as thinking of women as human.
posted by Gygesringtone at 6:15 AM on November 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
I suppose it depends on what you mean by "women are human". I take it to mean "women are not things who are there to serve your ends, don't treat them like things." Since the article is written like a users' guide to managing a particularly odd and recalcitrant consumer product, that you nevertheless need to use to achieve your own ends, it doesn't convey that message to me. I guess if "women are human" means "women have feelings", it does try to preach that. But then it's no different from any other PUA product in that regard - all their hypergamy/negging/blah-blah is about teaching men to interpret women's feelings in ways that are useful to them. Of course the interpretations are very stupid, even stupider than Tucker Max's, but I don't think his is any kind of moral advance.
posted by Aravis76 at 6:23 AM on November 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Aravis76 at 6:23 AM on November 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
Metafilter: I suppose it depends on what you mean by "women are human".
posted by clawsoon at 11:06 AM on November 13, 2015
posted by clawsoon at 11:06 AM on November 13, 2015
"And yes, Tucker Max's Become the Man Women Want came out 6 weeks ago."
Which Strauss blurbs for.
I knew Strauss as a friend-of-a-friend through critic circles (he also used to be an ILX regular), and it was so weird to see The Game take off the way that it did. Like, all I'd ever see from him was decent bits of music journalism, then there he is on the news for this PUA stuff, and while I remember him being kinda conflicted about it at first, it seemed like the longer he made money at it, the more it seduced him.
posted by klangklangston at 12:37 PM on November 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
Which Strauss blurbs for.
I knew Strauss as a friend-of-a-friend through critic circles (he also used to be an ILX regular), and it was so weird to see The Game take off the way that it did. Like, all I'd ever see from him was decent bits of music journalism, then there he is on the news for this PUA stuff, and while I remember him being kinda conflicted about it at first, it seemed like the longer he made money at it, the more it seduced him.
posted by klangklangston at 12:37 PM on November 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
A master manipulator. The Guardian interview, where there are photos of him and his family basically naked, is pretty odd.
Oh dude, you've been working out yeah? Keep at it, you're really showing some great improvement.
...mocking him with negging is as far as I could get in the PUA playbook, I think I'll vomit if I keep trying to use their own techniques to make him feel bad.
I do want him to feel bad though. In my fantasy world he gets charged for causing hate crimes in Canada under the Charter and every penny he has made from his hateful shit gets sucked back out of him until he has nothing and nobody will help him and he will, maybe, finally understand that treating people (women are people, he doesn't understand that very simple concept) like tokens in a video game is really gross.
Instead, he's going to talk about his fake-ass redemption, and rake in another few hundred thousand dollars, and nothing actually gets better.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:12 AM on November 14, 2015
Oh dude, you've been working out yeah? Keep at it, you're really showing some great improvement.
...mocking him with negging is as far as I could get in the PUA playbook, I think I'll vomit if I keep trying to use their own techniques to make him feel bad.
I do want him to feel bad though. In my fantasy world he gets charged for causing hate crimes in Canada under the Charter and every penny he has made from his hateful shit gets sucked back out of him until he has nothing and nobody will help him and he will, maybe, finally understand that treating people (women are people, he doesn't understand that very simple concept) like tokens in a video game is really gross.
Instead, he's going to talk about his fake-ass redemption, and rake in another few hundred thousand dollars, and nothing actually gets better.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:12 AM on November 14, 2015
The RedPill bros are calling him a sell-out. So thre's that at least.
RINOs mostly seem awfully Republican to me.
posted by straight at 8:56 AM on November 15, 2015
RINOs mostly seem awfully Republican to me.
posted by straight at 8:56 AM on November 15, 2015
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So probably not for me.
posted by biffa at 8:31 AM on November 12, 2015 [3 favorites]