"I wanted to go to Heaven.”
November 16, 2015 9:24 AM Subscribe
[Megan] Phelps-Roper spent the summer and the fall in an existential spiral. She would conclude that everything about Westboro’s doctrine was wrong, only to be seized with terror that these thoughts were a test from God, and she was failing. “You literally feel insane,” she said. Eventually, her doubts won out. “I just couldn’t keep up the charade,” she said. “I couldn’t bring myself to do the things we were doing and say the things we were saying.” - How a prized daughter of the Westboro Baptist Church came to question its beliefs. (content warning : extreme homophobic & anti-Semitic language)
I don't entirely know how to feel about this article. Given the choice between Megan Phelps-Roper continuing to be part of her hateful family's cult and not being a part of it, not being a part of it is for the better. Nonetheless, whether intentional or not, this article feels like it wants to redirect the spotlight to be on her suffering as part of a cult, as opposed to the incalculable suffering she has helped enable.
That she finally decided that maybe she was in the wrong (for reasons that frankly feel self-centered and focused on her own spiritual needs as opposed to the harm she was doing) doesn't really make what she did any less shitty.
posted by tocts at 9:55 AM on November 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
That she finally decided that maybe she was in the wrong (for reasons that frankly feel self-centered and focused on her own spiritual needs as opposed to the harm she was doing) doesn't really make what she did any less shitty.
posted by tocts at 9:55 AM on November 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
i should have included this in the post : her medium article and our thread on it
posted by nadawi at 9:57 AM on November 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 9:57 AM on November 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
That she finally decided that maybe she was in the wrong ... doesn't really make what she did any less shitty.
No it doesn't, but refusing to forgive her doesn't help anything. She was born into this crazy cult. She eventually saw the wrongness that she had been indoctrinated into, and was willing to lose her family and her church to stop being a part of it.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 10:05 AM on November 16, 2015 [54 favorites]
No it doesn't, but refusing to forgive her doesn't help anything. She was born into this crazy cult. She eventually saw the wrongness that she had been indoctrinated into, and was willing to lose her family and her church to stop being a part of it.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 10:05 AM on November 16, 2015 [54 favorites]
People in a cult are victims of the cult. Hate the cult, not the person.
posted by Artw at 10:07 AM on November 16, 2015 [39 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:07 AM on November 16, 2015 [39 favorites]
The parallels to Scientology are interesting--Steve Drain sounds a lot like David Miscavage. A stable of true believers that is highly indoctrinated to not question leadership and act cruelly without doubt is a terrifying weapon. For all of the horrors that happened under Hubbard, Scientology only became more vicious after Miscavage took over. I wonder if a similar thing will happen to the WBC. I very much doubt Drain became "convinced of its message"--more likely, he sensed an impending power vacuum in a church helmed by an elderly man.
posted by almostmanda at 10:10 AM on November 16, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by almostmanda at 10:10 AM on November 16, 2015 [8 favorites]
Yeah, I give them about a generation before polygamy or mass suicide.
posted by Artw at 10:10 AM on November 16, 2015
posted by Artw at 10:10 AM on November 16, 2015
She kept trying to conquer the doubts. Westboro teaches that one cannot trust his or her feelings. They’re unreliable. Human nature “is inherently sinful and inherently completely sinful,” Megan explains. “All that’s trustworthy is the Bible. And if you have a feeling or a thought that’s against the church’s interpretations of the Bible, then it’s a feeling or a thought against God himself.”
This is about as gaseous as gaslighting gets. I can't hold her personally responsible for her behavior, though I do believe it's fair to expect her to a) answer for it, b) make amends now that she knows better. What I really hope is that she's working quietly with whatever law enforcement entity will finally undo them, whether that's the ATF or FBI or whoever.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:22 AM on November 16, 2015 [7 favorites]
This is about as gaseous as gaslighting gets. I can't hold her personally responsible for her behavior, though I do believe it's fair to expect her to a) answer for it, b) make amends now that she knows better. What I really hope is that she's working quietly with whatever law enforcement entity will finally undo them, whether that's the ATF or FBI or whoever.
posted by Lyn Never at 10:22 AM on November 16, 2015 [7 favorites]
(err sorry, up thread i linked the medium post about the sisters leaving, not their post)
posted by nadawi at 10:28 AM on November 16, 2015
posted by nadawi at 10:28 AM on November 16, 2015
“The tone of your voice or the look on your face—you could get into so much trouble for these things, because they betray what’s in your heart,” she said. Her parents took to heart the proverb “He that spareth his rod hateth his son.” Her uncle gave them a novelty wooden paddle inscribed with the tongue-in-cheek direction “May be used on any child from 5 to 75,” and her father hung it on the wall next to the family photos. The joke hit close to home for Phelps-Roper, who was spanked well into her teens.
She was born into one of America's most infamous dysfunctional and hateful families and spent her first twenty-five years trapped in a terrible, repressive world of severe emotional and physical abuse. Perhaps I'm just feeling a bit raw with my own stuff today, but it strikes me as awfully uncharitable to want to focus solely on the "incalculable suffering" her family has caused to others, when she's been one of their longest-term victims.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 10:33 AM on November 16, 2015 [77 favorites]
She was born into one of America's most infamous dysfunctional and hateful families and spent her first twenty-five years trapped in a terrible, repressive world of severe emotional and physical abuse. Perhaps I'm just feeling a bit raw with my own stuff today, but it strikes me as awfully uncharitable to want to focus solely on the "incalculable suffering" her family has caused to others, when she's been one of their longest-term victims.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 10:33 AM on November 16, 2015 [77 favorites]
She's a victim.
I can't favorite this enough.
Yes, what she did was incredibly shitty. Everything about WBC is incredibly shitty*. This young woman, however - just like every one of us, didn't get to choose who she was born to, how she was raised, and what she was indoctrinated with.
I don't really think people who are raised in "normal" circumstances can really comprehend exactly what it's like to be raised in a dysfunctional environment, by broken people, who are brainwashing you each and every day. I was raised in something not quite cultish but extremely right wing conservative and very homophobic. And you know what? I've come to realize that because I never experienced being raised "normal" - what it's like to grow up as a kid being told that you should love everyone around you, that everyone matters, etc. - I didn't get that, and because of that, I can't empathize with what that must be like. I can look at how other people do it now, and hopefully maybe I can even do it for my kids some day, but I didn't get that upbringing, so I literally just don't know what it's like and how I might have become a much different person if I did get it. I can only be me today and try to be better. Much like I suppose this gal is trying to do.
So smoke on that for a minute, really let it ruminate - can any of us really - REALLY - know what it was like to have your entire worldview twisted into something wrong and evil and hateful from before the time you learned how to speak? It's probably a really small number of folks who have had to go through what she has, and can even really understand it and all it's myriad implications.
I think it's incredibly hard to overestimate what a major effort making this shift was for her, regardless of her motivations or how she went about it. RTFA - she doesn't even get to speak to her mother anymore, for crying out loud - she has to loop videos of her online, spewing her hate I'm sure - just to hear her mother's own voice. She had to forsake her family to do what was right. Who of us have had to do that?
My heart goes out to this poor woman. Good on her.
*WBC stands for everything that is a complete misinterpretation of the Gospel and a perversion of Christianity. With a limited understanding of Islam and ISIS, I'd wager there's a comparison to be made. Any cursory reading of the scriptures - whether you believe them or not - clearly describes a God who sent his son to die as a ransom for sinners, and then describes his time on earth not pursuing those who followed God religiously so much as pursuing the lost and those on the margins - the poor, the prostitutes, the sick, those hated by society for their shitty roles in it. If Jesus were here today he wouldn't be avoiding homosexuals, much less celebrating the idea of them going to hell. He's be hugging them and eating lunch with them. I think maybe Fred got a glimpse of this before he left earth.
posted by allkindsoftime at 10:35 AM on November 16, 2015 [66 favorites]
I can't favorite this enough.
Yes, what she did was incredibly shitty. Everything about WBC is incredibly shitty*. This young woman, however - just like every one of us, didn't get to choose who she was born to, how she was raised, and what she was indoctrinated with.
I don't really think people who are raised in "normal" circumstances can really comprehend exactly what it's like to be raised in a dysfunctional environment, by broken people, who are brainwashing you each and every day. I was raised in something not quite cultish but extremely right wing conservative and very homophobic. And you know what? I've come to realize that because I never experienced being raised "normal" - what it's like to grow up as a kid being told that you should love everyone around you, that everyone matters, etc. - I didn't get that, and because of that, I can't empathize with what that must be like. I can look at how other people do it now, and hopefully maybe I can even do it for my kids some day, but I didn't get that upbringing, so I literally just don't know what it's like and how I might have become a much different person if I did get it. I can only be me today and try to be better. Much like I suppose this gal is trying to do.
So smoke on that for a minute, really let it ruminate - can any of us really - REALLY - know what it was like to have your entire worldview twisted into something wrong and evil and hateful from before the time you learned how to speak? It's probably a really small number of folks who have had to go through what she has, and can even really understand it and all it's myriad implications.
I think it's incredibly hard to overestimate what a major effort making this shift was for her, regardless of her motivations or how she went about it. RTFA - she doesn't even get to speak to her mother anymore, for crying out loud - she has to loop videos of her online, spewing her hate I'm sure - just to hear her mother's own voice. She had to forsake her family to do what was right. Who of us have had to do that?
My heart goes out to this poor woman. Good on her.
*WBC stands for everything that is a complete misinterpretation of the Gospel and a perversion of Christianity. With a limited understanding of Islam and ISIS, I'd wager there's a comparison to be made. Any cursory reading of the scriptures - whether you believe them or not - clearly describes a God who sent his son to die as a ransom for sinners, and then describes his time on earth not pursuing those who followed God religiously so much as pursuing the lost and those on the margins - the poor, the prostitutes, the sick, those hated by society for their shitty roles in it. If Jesus were here today he wouldn't be avoiding homosexuals, much less celebrating the idea of them going to hell. He's be hugging them and eating lunch with them. I think maybe Fred got a glimpse of this before he left earth.
posted by allkindsoftime at 10:35 AM on November 16, 2015 [66 favorites]
I guess I see the article as being less about her suffering and more about how she came to change her mind.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:36 AM on November 16, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:36 AM on November 16, 2015 [7 favorites]
I can't imagine anyone wanting to go to a Heaven that's just WBC members, for eternity. Give me Hell, every time.
posted by Hoopo at 10:43 AM on November 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Hoopo at 10:43 AM on November 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
That she finally decided that maybe she was in the wrong ... doesn't really make what she did any less shitty.
Fortunately redemption doesn't require time travel or we'd all be fucked by the shortage of Deloreans.
posted by srboisvert at 10:44 AM on November 16, 2015 [22 favorites]
Fortunately redemption doesn't require time travel or we'd all be fucked by the shortage of Deloreans.
posted by srboisvert at 10:44 AM on November 16, 2015 [22 favorites]
There was no doubt in my mind as I read this article that it is deep literary Rorschach test. For my part, as you know from the start that she left, I found myself most glad that she found her C.G.
posted by meinvt at 10:48 AM on November 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by meinvt at 10:48 AM on November 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
Three passages FTA:
"Church members disdained human feelings as something that people worshipped instead of the Bible. They even had a sign: “God hates your feelings.”"
and
"By following her opponents’ feeds, she absorbed their thoughts on the world, learned what food they ate, and saw photographs of their babies. “I was beginning to see them as human,” she said."
and
"Abitbol had learned while running Net Hate that relating to hateful people on a human level was the best way to deal with them. ... And he wanted to humanize Jews to Westboro."
Megan Phelps-Roper has grown and changed and become more human, partly because a few people extended their hands. She was brave enough to reach out to them despite everything in her upbringing. That's a victory for connection.
posted by MonkeyToes at 10:48 AM on November 16, 2015 [86 favorites]
"Church members disdained human feelings as something that people worshipped instead of the Bible. They even had a sign: “God hates your feelings.”"
and
"By following her opponents’ feeds, she absorbed their thoughts on the world, learned what food they ate, and saw photographs of their babies. “I was beginning to see them as human,” she said."
and
"Abitbol had learned while running Net Hate that relating to hateful people on a human level was the best way to deal with them. ... And he wanted to humanize Jews to Westboro."
Megan Phelps-Roper has grown and changed and become more human, partly because a few people extended their hands. She was brave enough to reach out to them despite everything in her upbringing. That's a victory for connection.
posted by MonkeyToes at 10:48 AM on November 16, 2015 [86 favorites]
The fact that the last straw of her faith was some hipster on twitter sending her mopey mixtapes makes me sinfully happy.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:54 AM on November 16, 2015 [55 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:54 AM on November 16, 2015 [55 favorites]
They even had a sign: “God hates your feelings.”
I'm trying and failing to imagine what they'd make of Jesus' commandment to love thy neighbor, then.
posted by Gelatin at 10:58 AM on November 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm trying and failing to imagine what they'd make of Jesus' commandment to love thy neighbor, then.
posted by Gelatin at 10:58 AM on November 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
I feel like this story is a strong message of hope in this mad mad world. With so many armed angry people fueled by hateful fearful doctrines, that someone who was raised indoctrinated can change her mind is just wonderful. Thank you for posting this.
posted by eggkeeper at 11:01 AM on November 16, 2015 [21 favorites]
posted by eggkeeper at 11:01 AM on November 16, 2015 [21 favorites]
I'm trying and failing to imagine what they'd make of Jesus' commandment to love thy neighbor, then.
They're more into God's earlier stuff before he sold out
posted by Hoopo at 11:02 AM on November 16, 2015 [60 favorites]
They're more into God's earlier stuff before he sold out
posted by Hoopo at 11:02 AM on November 16, 2015 [60 favorites]
millenial, social-media-friendly face of WBC
Millenial premillenialism?
posted by atoxyl at 11:03 AM on November 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
Millenial premillenialism?
posted by atoxyl at 11:03 AM on November 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
The role of Brittany Murphy's death in her realization that her family was cruel and awful was fairly well fascinating in its own right.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 11:03 AM on November 16, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 11:03 AM on November 16, 2015 [13 favorites]
Phelps-Roper had long assumed that she would likely never get married, since she was related to almost every male in the church.
If this holds, and I don't see anything in these articles indicating a huge uptick in conversions to mitigate against it, there is not going to be much more future for the WBC.
posted by palindromic at 11:13 AM on November 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
If this holds, and I don't see anything in these articles indicating a huge uptick in conversions to mitigate against it, there is not going to be much more future for the WBC.
posted by palindromic at 11:13 AM on November 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
The role of Brittany Murphy's death in her realization that her family was cruel and awful was fairly well fascinating in its own right.
Likewise the various humanizing connections Phelps-Roper made over Twitter. Twitter? The same Twitter that the usual trolls unaffiliated with WBC are employing to say horrible things about the Paris terrorist attacks? Maybe there's some hope for them, too...
posted by Doktor Zed at 11:18 AM on November 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Likewise the various humanizing connections Phelps-Roper made over Twitter. Twitter? The same Twitter that the usual trolls unaffiliated with WBC are employing to say horrible things about the Paris terrorist attacks? Maybe there's some hope for them, too...
posted by Doktor Zed at 11:18 AM on November 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, shout out to twitter. A lot of people talk shit about it, and some of it is true, but giving a simple and universally accessible platform of communication to everyone for free sometimes does result in the worst, most close-minded ideologies being exposed by truth and friendship. ISIS better watch out or a cutey will DM them some Adele remixes and Ta-Nehisi Coates article & next thing you know they'll all be SJWs.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:22 AM on November 16, 2015 [28 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:22 AM on November 16, 2015 [28 favorites]
If this holds, and I don't see anything in these articles indicating a huge uptick in conversions to mitigate against it, there is not going to be much more future for the WBC.
The impression I get from the way this story went, though, is that this is kind of all going according to plan. Several of Shirley's siblings left the church, themselves. So why is it that Megan was still allowed so much access to the outside world? I'm pretty sure they have a mental math going that looks a bit like this:
Let's say, for the sake of round numbers, that there are about 10 kids who "come of age" about the same time Megan did. They're all out in the public schools, they're on the internet, they're being "tempted". But all the church needs is ONE of those ten to come home with an outsider who wants to convert. And they're in Kansas, a place where it's not quite as outlandish to think that there might be some teenager who already thinks gays are going to hell who could be talked into seeing the church as a warm and welcoming place.
That one couple stays; they have ten kids. The other nine of their peers leave. WBC doesn't grow, but it also doesn't die out. As long as they have big families, they don't need more than one or two conversions a generation to keep the church the same size it is now.
If they wanted to grow, I can't help but think that by Megan's generation, Stephen King novels and Clueless would not have been welcome in the house. I don't think they want to grow; I think they want things to continue much the same way as they have been, forever if possible, and that doesn't work with a church of 500 people. Like the FLDS needs most of the boys to leave for their system to work, the WBC needs only the most loyal of their many children to stay. They need to maintain a purity of message that they won't keep if they get too big for everybody to share a backyard.
posted by Sequence at 11:29 AM on November 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
The impression I get from the way this story went, though, is that this is kind of all going according to plan. Several of Shirley's siblings left the church, themselves. So why is it that Megan was still allowed so much access to the outside world? I'm pretty sure they have a mental math going that looks a bit like this:
Let's say, for the sake of round numbers, that there are about 10 kids who "come of age" about the same time Megan did. They're all out in the public schools, they're on the internet, they're being "tempted". But all the church needs is ONE of those ten to come home with an outsider who wants to convert. And they're in Kansas, a place where it's not quite as outlandish to think that there might be some teenager who already thinks gays are going to hell who could be talked into seeing the church as a warm and welcoming place.
That one couple stays; they have ten kids. The other nine of their peers leave. WBC doesn't grow, but it also doesn't die out. As long as they have big families, they don't need more than one or two conversions a generation to keep the church the same size it is now.
If they wanted to grow, I can't help but think that by Megan's generation, Stephen King novels and Clueless would not have been welcome in the house. I don't think they want to grow; I think they want things to continue much the same way as they have been, forever if possible, and that doesn't work with a church of 500 people. Like the FLDS needs most of the boys to leave for their system to work, the WBC needs only the most loyal of their many children to stay. They need to maintain a purity of message that they won't keep if they get too big for everybody to share a backyard.
posted by Sequence at 11:29 AM on November 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
Powerful. So glad she made it out. Serious question, mefi, does anyone know why Kansas child protective services hasn't shut Westboro down?
posted by moonlight on vermont at 11:50 AM on November 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by moonlight on vermont at 11:50 AM on November 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
tocts: "That she finally decided that maybe she was in the wrong (for reasons that frankly feel self-centered and focused on her own spiritual needs as opposed to the harm she was doing) doesn't really make what she did any less shitty."
I think what's powerful about the story is that she was seeking God's grace for the sins of man, but ended up stumbling across MAN'S grace for her sins in the name of God. All her life she was looking for that grace in the face of evil, and found it reflected to her not in the church she belonged to but in the people who were so kind to her despite all of the evil she had done.
I think if the author had been more explicit about that, it would have read way too Protestant-redemption-narrative-y. :)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:03 PM on November 16, 2015 [19 favorites]
I think what's powerful about the story is that she was seeking God's grace for the sins of man, but ended up stumbling across MAN'S grace for her sins in the name of God. All her life she was looking for that grace in the face of evil, and found it reflected to her not in the church she belonged to but in the people who were so kind to her despite all of the evil she had done.
I think if the author had been more explicit about that, it would have read way too Protestant-redemption-narrative-y. :)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:03 PM on November 16, 2015 [19 favorites]
Powerful. So glad she made it out. Serious question, mefi, does anyone know why Kansas child protective services hasn't shut Westboro down?
I haven't finished the article, but in the half I've read, I've seen nothing that would substantiate a CPS charge. The beating with a paddle is marginal*, and may be just fine in Kansas.
*That's not my opinion, I think it's horrific. I'm saying marginal from the issue of child protective services.
posted by OmieWise at 12:04 PM on November 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
This is a really uplifting story about how she and her sister were able to overcome their upbringing, and to find open, welcoming people outside of their cult despite their past actions and words. I'd be interested in hearing the story from her sister's perspective as well.
posted by ayedub at 12:06 PM on November 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by ayedub at 12:06 PM on November 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
It IS really interesting both that it's a cult so open to the outside world, and that they manage to keep so many members despite being so open to the outside world. (There was a point in the middle where I was like, "Maybe this is not the worst cult because they let people leave?" And then I was like NO THEY'RE STILL REALLY BAD but I'm grateful that they do physically allow people to leave.)
It's also fascinating from a theological standpoint, and I'd love to interview her about this, how careful reading of the Bible led her to reject her family's interpretation of it, which is a longstanding concern in Protestantism (first voiced almost immediately by Martin Luther) and part of Catholicism's original problem with Protestantism -- if you let people interpret the Scriptures themselves they're going to go off-script! I feel like she and I could have an interesting conversation, as two women of about the same age, both raised in the Midwest, but brought up in very different kinds of Christianity, who both came to use the Bible to interrogate what we were being taught about the Bible by our churches, and how we each worked that out intellectually and theologically and morally.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:08 PM on November 16, 2015 [12 favorites]
It's also fascinating from a theological standpoint, and I'd love to interview her about this, how careful reading of the Bible led her to reject her family's interpretation of it, which is a longstanding concern in Protestantism (first voiced almost immediately by Martin Luther) and part of Catholicism's original problem with Protestantism -- if you let people interpret the Scriptures themselves they're going to go off-script! I feel like she and I could have an interesting conversation, as two women of about the same age, both raised in the Midwest, but brought up in very different kinds of Christianity, who both came to use the Bible to interrogate what we were being taught about the Bible by our churches, and how we each worked that out intellectually and theologically and morally.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 12:08 PM on November 16, 2015 [12 favorites]
I haven't finished the article, but in the half I've read, I've seen nothing that would substantiate a CPS charge. The beating with a paddle is marginal*, and may be just fine in Kansas.
I was just looking at her twitter feed and she tweeted the following on October 17: "Beatings aren’t WBC’s MO, but the shame/humiliation/isolation are. They’re such effective ways of keeping people in line. Invisible chains."
posted by Area Man at 12:11 PM on November 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
I was just looking at her twitter feed and she tweeted the following on October 17: "Beatings aren’t WBC’s MO, but the shame/humiliation/isolation are. They’re such effective ways of keeping people in line. Invisible chains."
posted by Area Man at 12:11 PM on November 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
moonlight on vermont - Why should they have? The children weren't physically harmed in a way that broke the law, and weren't emotionally abused in easy to define and litigate ways. They had friends, they went to fairly normal schools. The United States is a free country; indoctrinating your children into a non-standard belief system is legal. Hateful beliefs are legal. It's called freedom of conscience. It's implied by the Constitution and beautifully articulated, if not with the force of US law, in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
I don't want to derail but there have been many conversations in the past on metafilter about why wishing the fury of child protective services on any family whose behavior one doesn't approve of is problematic.
posted by Wretch729 at 12:14 PM on November 16, 2015 [7 favorites]
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.There are gray areas. People can disagree about specific things like hate crimes legislation or the sort of restrictive policies on neo-Nazi or anti-Semitic speech in Germany, for example. But in my opinion to suggest that the state should have the power to dictate acceptable beliefs is to promote despotism.
I don't want to derail but there have been many conversations in the past on metafilter about why wishing the fury of child protective services on any family whose behavior one doesn't approve of is problematic.
posted by Wretch729 at 12:14 PM on November 16, 2015 [7 favorites]
I was just looking at her twitter feed and she tweeted the following on October 17: "Beatings aren’t WBC’s MO, but the shame/humiliation/isolation are. They’re such effective ways of keeping people in line. Invisible chains."
Absolutely, but also not issues that child welfare departments get involved in. (I'm not sure if you were suggesting they might?) Child welfare cases basically get opened for physical abuse (violence or sex), neglect, and the very very rare case of emotional abuse, which is basically bad enough that it either equals neglect or seriously threatens physical abuse. It's by no means a nuanced system.
posted by OmieWise at 12:19 PM on November 16, 2015
Absolutely, but also not issues that child welfare departments get involved in. (I'm not sure if you were suggesting they might?) Child welfare cases basically get opened for physical abuse (violence or sex), neglect, and the very very rare case of emotional abuse, which is basically bad enough that it either equals neglect or seriously threatens physical abuse. It's by no means a nuanced system.
posted by OmieWise at 12:19 PM on November 16, 2015
If this holds, and I don't see anything in these articles indicating a huge uptick in conversions to mitigate against it, there is not going to be much more future for the WBC.
Let's hope so; the alternative is Josef Fritzl as interpreted by Wes Craven.
posted by acb at 12:19 PM on November 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
Let's hope so; the alternative is Josef Fritzl as interpreted by Wes Craven.
posted by acb at 12:19 PM on November 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
indoctrinating your children into a non-standard belief system is legal
And gross. The key word there is indoctrination. The westboro people are particularly wretched, but there are lots of people raised in environments which only better by degree.
posted by maxwelton at 12:20 PM on November 16, 2015
And gross. The key word there is indoctrination. The westboro people are particularly wretched, but there are lots of people raised in environments which only better by degree.
posted by maxwelton at 12:20 PM on November 16, 2015
Beatings aren’t WBC’s MO...
For her maybe. For her uncle Nathan it was a lot more physical before he left.
posted by PenDevil at 12:21 PM on November 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
For her maybe. For her uncle Nathan it was a lot more physical before he left.
posted by PenDevil at 12:21 PM on November 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
feels like it wants to redirect the spotlight to be on her suffering as part of a cult, as opposed to the incalculable suffering she has helped enable.
The well of empathy in each human breast may not be infinite, I do not know. But I cannot believe it so scarce a resource that we must apportion it by micro-drop, jealously guarding each tear lest one should fall upon the undeserving.
My hope, forlorn though it sometimes seems in these days, is that rather it is a spring renewed by pouring, that each time we come to understand one formerly alien to us we can better, more easily understand others, stranger yet. A water to wear away stones.
posted by Diablevert at 12:24 PM on November 16, 2015 [39 favorites]
The well of empathy in each human breast may not be infinite, I do not know. But I cannot believe it so scarce a resource that we must apportion it by micro-drop, jealously guarding each tear lest one should fall upon the undeserving.
My hope, forlorn though it sometimes seems in these days, is that rather it is a spring renewed by pouring, that each time we come to understand one formerly alien to us we can better, more easily understand others, stranger yet. A water to wear away stones.
posted by Diablevert at 12:24 PM on November 16, 2015 [39 favorites]
I very much doubt Drain became "convinced of its message"--more likely, he sensed an impending power vacuum in a church helmed by an elderly man.
I know nothing about Drain—I didn't even know he existed before reading this—but I'm also very skeptical of his "conversion." I can, maybe, buy that Fred Phelps believed his own nonsense and even that he bullied his own family into believing it. But Drain? Straight up grift, I'd bet money on it.
If they wanted to grow, I can't help but think that by Megan's generation, Stephen King novels and Clueless would not have been welcome in the house
Maybe. But there's a Gnostic quality to this sentence: "If you knew the truth in your heart, Westboro believed, even the filthiest products of pop culture couldn’t defile you." Humans can countenance a lot of cognitive dissonance and the Westboros wouldn't be the first people—or even the first so-called "Christians"—to believe that a special dispensation was enough to stay pure in a filthy world.
But I guess I've never given any thought to the Westboro "theology" because, judging by this piece only, I'm impressed by how much it sounds like badly recycled Gnosticism.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:35 PM on November 16, 2015
I know nothing about Drain—I didn't even know he existed before reading this—but I'm also very skeptical of his "conversion." I can, maybe, buy that Fred Phelps believed his own nonsense and even that he bullied his own family into believing it. But Drain? Straight up grift, I'd bet money on it.
If they wanted to grow, I can't help but think that by Megan's generation, Stephen King novels and Clueless would not have been welcome in the house
Maybe. But there's a Gnostic quality to this sentence: "If you knew the truth in your heart, Westboro believed, even the filthiest products of pop culture couldn’t defile you." Humans can countenance a lot of cognitive dissonance and the Westboros wouldn't be the first people—or even the first so-called "Christians"—to believe that a special dispensation was enough to stay pure in a filthy world.
But I guess I've never given any thought to the Westboro "theology" because, judging by this piece only, I'm impressed by how much it sounds like badly recycled Gnosticism.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:35 PM on November 16, 2015
I was just doing a little reading about Drain, and came across this Daily Beast article about his daughter, Lauren Drain, who was banished after she was caught chatting online with a young man. I thought it was interesting that repeated online communication with outsides played a role in both her departure and Megan Phelps-Roger. The article also indicates the Phelps-Roger kids, including Megan, were known for getting the highest grades at their public High School.
posted by Area Man at 1:11 PM on November 16, 2015
posted by Area Man at 1:11 PM on November 16, 2015
This is a very thoughtful woman. I'm pretty impressed, even though I hate the WBC.
posted by OmieWise at 1:14 PM on November 16, 2015
posted by OmieWise at 1:14 PM on November 16, 2015
I see this as an interesting primer on "calling in." We are under no obligation to engage with hate, and there are a lot of good reasons not to. But for those who have the bandwidth to mindfully and patiently do that hard work, the ripple effect can be incredible.
posted by delight at 1:14 PM on November 16, 2015 [17 favorites]
posted by delight at 1:14 PM on November 16, 2015 [17 favorites]
the rush to want to involve child services is something used by cult-like brainwashing religions as a reason to never involve "the state" even when the topic is horrific abuse. the fear of dhs coming in and dismantling not only my family, but all of the families in my extended family, is the reason our church was able to convince my parents not to report me being molested as a child (and kept me from telling my non-mormon teachers or friends' parents).
posted by nadawi at 1:27 PM on November 16, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 1:27 PM on November 16, 2015 [11 favorites]
Oh man, I am so glad to read to this right now. If a Phelps can break free of that awful conditioning and choose love, anyone can. This gives me hope for all the dipshits spewing their hate on the internet right now.
posted by Ruki at 2:17 PM on November 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Ruki at 2:17 PM on November 16, 2015 [4 favorites]
The role of Brittany Murphy's death in her realization that her family was cruel and awful was fairly well fascinating in its own right.
It makes perfect sense to me. I was very involved in a church as a teenager and I accepted wholesale the "doctrine" they distributed, a lot of which embarrasses me terribly now. I could accept a lot of it without question. I only did begin to question on one particular Sunday. A girl in my Sunday school class, a year younger than me, had been involved in something the night before that was never explicated, but it involved alcohol and boys. Looking back on it, I am 99% certain that she experienced some form of sexual assault, but that's not the message that was conveyed. She was made to stand up in front of the church -- in front of the entire church, during the regular Sunday service -- to apologize for having been sinful. And I realized right there, in that moment, that it was her that time, but it could very easily be me the next time.
When her family cheered Brittany Murphy's death, Megan Phelps-Roper saw them cheering the death of a young woman very much like her and whom she liked -- not a nameless fag or a faceless dead soldier. She realized for the first time right then that one day it could be her on the receiving end of their astounding hatred. That's what caused the record scratch.
Anyway, I enjoyed reading this. It sounds like she's found some peace, and I hope she continues to. I, for one, forgive her.
posted by mudpuppie at 2:34 PM on November 16, 2015 [16 favorites]
It makes perfect sense to me. I was very involved in a church as a teenager and I accepted wholesale the "doctrine" they distributed, a lot of which embarrasses me terribly now. I could accept a lot of it without question. I only did begin to question on one particular Sunday. A girl in my Sunday school class, a year younger than me, had been involved in something the night before that was never explicated, but it involved alcohol and boys. Looking back on it, I am 99% certain that she experienced some form of sexual assault, but that's not the message that was conveyed. She was made to stand up in front of the church -- in front of the entire church, during the regular Sunday service -- to apologize for having been sinful. And I realized right there, in that moment, that it was her that time, but it could very easily be me the next time.
When her family cheered Brittany Murphy's death, Megan Phelps-Roper saw them cheering the death of a young woman very much like her and whom she liked -- not a nameless fag or a faceless dead soldier. She realized for the first time right then that one day it could be her on the receiving end of their astounding hatred. That's what caused the record scratch.
Anyway, I enjoyed reading this. It sounds like she's found some peace, and I hope she continues to. I, for one, forgive her.
posted by mudpuppie at 2:34 PM on November 16, 2015 [16 favorites]
But all the church needs is ONE of those ten to come home with an outsider who wants to convert.
There's a Louis Theroux thing where he goes and visits the WBC to get to know them (I think he talks to Megan? certainly at least some of her sisters, they all look alike). It's floating around on youtube if anyone wants to watch it. Anyway, there's at least one outsider dude who joined the church. Some dude from Florida flew up there to do a documentary on the family, decided that they made some good points, and joined up. If I remember correctly, this is the guy who has the graphic design talent and makes all the signs.
posted by phunniemee at 2:52 PM on November 16, 2015
There's a Louis Theroux thing where he goes and visits the WBC to get to know them (I think he talks to Megan? certainly at least some of her sisters, they all look alike). It's floating around on youtube if anyone wants to watch it. Anyway, there's at least one outsider dude who joined the church. Some dude from Florida flew up there to do a documentary on the family, decided that they made some good points, and joined up. If I remember correctly, this is the guy who has the graphic design talent and makes all the signs.
posted by phunniemee at 2:52 PM on November 16, 2015
When I saw her in the Theroux documentary I really pitied her, she seemed to like Louis and to be a good person stuck in this shitty place. Overall I am glad for her escape.
But still this got me:
She started to complain to her mother, saying that the elders were not obeying the Bible. They treated her mother and other members with cruelty when the Bible required brotherly love, she said. The elders acted arrogantly and tolerated no dissent, when God demanded meekness and humility.
The cognitive dissonance is redlining here. She didn't like it that they weren't being nice to her mom and her. But I guess it was that dissonance that led to the split so it's all good.
posted by Meatbomb at 3:30 PM on November 16, 2015
But still this got me:
She started to complain to her mother, saying that the elders were not obeying the Bible. They treated her mother and other members with cruelty when the Bible required brotherly love, she said. The elders acted arrogantly and tolerated no dissent, when God demanded meekness and humility.
The cognitive dissonance is redlining here. She didn't like it that they weren't being nice to her mom and her. But I guess it was that dissonance that led to the split so it's all good.
posted by Meatbomb at 3:30 PM on November 16, 2015
Yeah, that's the Drain guy mentioned in the articles linked above.
Whoops. I read until I hit Brittany Murphy then came back into the thread to see if anyone else was talking about Brittany Murphy. (I really miss Brittany Murphy.)
The Louis Theroux is a good watch.
posted by phunniemee at 3:34 PM on November 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
Whoops. I read until I hit Brittany Murphy then came back into the thread to see if anyone else was talking about Brittany Murphy. (I really miss Brittany Murphy.)
The Louis Theroux is a good watch.
posted by phunniemee at 3:34 PM on November 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
I wonder if manipulative psychopaths who stalk elderly cult leaders who look like they're about to pop their clogs, join their cults and angle for taking over the cult for themselves afterwards are an actual observed phenomenon. Because, if leading a cult's your thing, it's probably a lot easier than starting from scratch.
posted by acb at 4:06 PM on November 16, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by acb at 4:06 PM on November 16, 2015 [7 favorites]
I wonder if manipulative psychopaths who stalk elderly cult leaders who look like they're about to pop their clogs, join their cults and angle for taking over the cult for themselves afterwards are an actual observed phenomenon. Because, if leading a cult's your thing, it's probably a lot easier than starting from scratch.
Miscavige at least doesn't follow this pattern. His family was in since he was a kid.
posted by mr_roboto at 4:56 PM on November 16, 2015
Miscavige at least doesn't follow this pattern. His family was in since he was a kid.
posted by mr_roboto at 4:56 PM on November 16, 2015
"That day, Grace wrote to Megan, “Our belief in God has always curbed everything. Like, pain & sorrow, I mean. Without that we’d only have our belief in each other. But we are human & humans die. What would we have if we didn’t have each other?” For Megan, the answer could be found in other people. “We know what it is to be kind & good to people,” she wrote. “We would just have to find somewhere else, other people to love and care about and help, too.” Grace wrote back, “I don’t want other people.” In truth, Megan didn’t want other people, either; she desperately wanted things in Westboro to go back to the way they had been. But the idea of living among outsiders was no longer unimaginable."
I found this very powerful. All of it. The fear of trading the eternal for the evanescent, of pain, of death, the hope, the love, the longing to belong at home and complete ("I don't want other people").
It sounds like Megan was the more outward-facing one and definitely the more literarily-inclined one. But I get the impression that this is really something she could do because they could do it as sisters together.
Between that and Megan's empathy for her mother, it seems to me that as rotten as things were in WBC, there was also some real familial, maternal, and sisterly love happening in her immediate family and that made Megan's escape possible. It's interesting that her brother, who played hymns and cried on the piano while the sisters were leaving, left too a few years later.
posted by Salamandrous at 5:12 PM on November 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
I found this very powerful. All of it. The fear of trading the eternal for the evanescent, of pain, of death, the hope, the love, the longing to belong at home and complete ("I don't want other people").
It sounds like Megan was the more outward-facing one and definitely the more literarily-inclined one. But I get the impression that this is really something she could do because they could do it as sisters together.
Between that and Megan's empathy for her mother, it seems to me that as rotten as things were in WBC, there was also some real familial, maternal, and sisterly love happening in her immediate family and that made Megan's escape possible. It's interesting that her brother, who played hymns and cried on the piano while the sisters were leaving, left too a few years later.
posted by Salamandrous at 5:12 PM on November 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
The kids are alright:
Wherever Megan and Grace went, they met people who wanted to help them, despite all the hurt they had caused.
Good on ya, humanity.
posted by mfu at 5:35 PM on November 16, 2015 [10 favorites]
Wherever Megan and Grace went, they met people who wanted to help them, despite all the hurt they had caused.
Good on ya, humanity.
posted by mfu at 5:35 PM on November 16, 2015 [10 favorites]
As much as I despise all the things westbourough stands for, I am so happy for the sisters that got out, and I am so pleased that people extended love, and help to them. I'm with mfu, well done humanity. Well done.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:14 PM on November 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 7:14 PM on November 16, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm glad they got out and are forging new lives. Good on the people who reached out and showed them a better way.
posted by arcticseal at 8:09 PM on November 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by arcticseal at 8:09 PM on November 16, 2015 [1 favorite]
There's a Louis Theroux thing where he goes and visits the WBC to get to know them (I think he talks to Megan? certainly at least some of her sisters, they all look alike). It's floating around on youtube yt if anyone wants to watch it. Anyway, there's at least one outsider dude who joined the church. Some dude from Florida flew up there to do a documentary on the family, decided that they made some good points, and joined up.
Theroux did a follow-up a few years later after Megan and Grace left. Apparently there is yet another outsider, Jack Wu, who has glommed on to the church, although AFAIK he is not an official member. Google tells me that he started attending services in 2008. There was some controversy a few years ago when he tried to run for a seat on the state board of education. People weren't very happy at the idea of a Westboro acolyte making decisions about public education, who woulda thunk it?
posted by imnotasquirrel at 8:55 PM on November 16, 2015
Theroux did a follow-up a few years later after Megan and Grace left. Apparently there is yet another outsider, Jack Wu, who has glommed on to the church, although AFAIK he is not an official member. Google tells me that he started attending services in 2008. There was some controversy a few years ago when he tried to run for a seat on the state board of education. People weren't very happy at the idea of a Westboro acolyte making decisions about public education, who woulda thunk it?
posted by imnotasquirrel at 8:55 PM on November 16, 2015
"curious instead of condemning"
That's the most succinct form of putting this I've seen. That's it. I've never had any luck persuading people by building myself up over them or asserting my rightness or anything like that. It just doesn't work because all of us generally assume we're the ones who are right. You don't change another person's viewpoint by fighting them. I've been (and still am to an upsetting but hopefully diminishing degree) inclined to yell and shout and denounce and all of that when I know that the other person's views are absolutely abhorrent to me. But never once have I influenced anyone with that. The times I talk to people and, no matter how sick what they're saying may make me, try to be understanding and wonder why they think such and such and maybe suggest another way to look at things? Those are so much more successful. Not always. Not even often. But more often than fighting them.
posted by downtohisturtles at 11:15 PM on November 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
That's the most succinct form of putting this I've seen. That's it. I've never had any luck persuading people by building myself up over them or asserting my rightness or anything like that. It just doesn't work because all of us generally assume we're the ones who are right. You don't change another person's viewpoint by fighting them. I've been (and still am to an upsetting but hopefully diminishing degree) inclined to yell and shout and denounce and all of that when I know that the other person's views are absolutely abhorrent to me. But never once have I influenced anyone with that. The times I talk to people and, no matter how sick what they're saying may make me, try to be understanding and wonder why they think such and such and maybe suggest another way to look at things? Those are so much more successful. Not always. Not even often. But more often than fighting them.
posted by downtohisturtles at 11:15 PM on November 16, 2015 [3 favorites]
Not long after, she told him that Westboro would be picketing the General Assembly of the Jewish Federations, in New Orleans, that year. Abitbol said that he’d be there, too, and when they met again they exchanged gifts.
This world is beyond me. Abitbol is a hero.
posted by Wrinkled Stumpskin at 2:33 AM on November 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
This world is beyond me. Abitbol is a hero.
posted by Wrinkled Stumpskin at 2:33 AM on November 17, 2015 [4 favorites]
They are an odd sort of cult in the way that they do give their kids many of the skills they'll need to survive in the outside world. They go to high school, they attend a decent local university, and they get real jobs.
posted by Area Man at 6:26 AM on November 17, 2015
posted by Area Man at 6:26 AM on November 17, 2015
From the article I'd guess that that's not going to last long.
posted by Artw at 7:28 AM on November 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 7:28 AM on November 17, 2015 [1 favorite]
"Nonetheless, whether intentional or not, this article feels like it wants to redirect the spotlight to be on her suffering as part of a cult, as opposed to the incalculable suffering she has helped enable."
Folks outside the WBC only have to deal with their nonsense when they show up to protest at a funeral or something - maybe a few hours or so. People inside the cult get exposed to the hatred and poison 24/7. I know which I think is worse.
posted by tdismukes at 7:59 AM on November 17, 2015 [7 favorites]
Folks outside the WBC only have to deal with their nonsense when they show up to protest at a funeral or something - maybe a few hours or so. People inside the cult get exposed to the hatred and poison 24/7. I know which I think is worse.
posted by tdismukes at 7:59 AM on November 17, 2015 [7 favorites]
Does anyone else think that this C.G. guy sounds fascinating? I'd really love to see a profile of him. He must lead an interesting life.
posted by kevinbelt at 2:11 PM on November 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by kevinbelt at 2:11 PM on November 17, 2015 [2 favorites]
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