“I just don’t think surgery turns a man into a woman.”
November 18, 2015 8:08 AM Subscribe
Transgender activists to protest against Germaine Greer. [The Guardian]
- A ban on Germaine Greer would be a threat to the universities’ unique role. [The Guardian]
Dozens of demonstrators are expected to protest at a university lecture given by Germaine Greer after a fierce campaign to prevent her from speaking by critics who claim she harbours offensive views towards transgender women. More than 3,000 people have signed a petition arguing that Greer should not be allowed to appear at Cardiff University on Wednesday evening to deliver a lecture on women in political and social life because her opinions on trans people are so upsetting.
Payton Quinn, who is organising the demonstration, said Greer had made “incredibly inflammatory” remarks about trans women. The flyer features two Greer quotes from Guardian articles. In one she wrote: “Nowadays we are all likely to meet people who think they are women, have women’s names, and feminine clothes and lots of eyeshadow, who seem to us to be some kind of ghastly parody, though it isn’t polite to say so.”Related:
In the second, a news article written about the calls for the Cardiff lecture to be halted, she said: “I just don’t think that surgery turns a man into a woman. A perfectly permissible view. I mean, an un-man is not necessarily a woman.”
- A ban on Germaine Greer would be a threat to the universities’ unique role. [The Guardian]
One of a university’s main roles in society is to encourage critical thinking and vigorous debate. Occasionally, this will involve inviting speakers who will express contentious, even inflammatory or offensive views. Indeed, some argue that it is the role of universities to provoke and discomfort, and that the true test of free speech is not just allowing someone to express views with which you disagree, but to express views that you find profoundly offensive.- Germaine Greer's 'Censorship' Is a Red Herring [OUT]
It is fair for my friend Casey to ask a feminist public figure to address her remarks about a certain category of women. She deserves an answer, not the assertion that her question is inherently “highly misogynistic”—Greer’s exact words—and thus forbidden. Trish Salah deserves an answer, not to be told to sit down and shut up simply on the basis of seeming recognizably trans.
And so, in the wake of the recent flurry of op-eds regarding the attempted no-platforming of Germaine Greer, at the University of Cardiff in the United Kingdom, I have to ask—the thinkpiece peanut gallery keeps talking about silencing. It keeps talking about censorship. But—whose silence? Who is censored? And by whom? (For those who are unfamiliar, the practice of no-platforming posits that it’s best to refuse a place in the debate to people with discriminatory or violent agendas. The argument is that even offering them a platform dignifies their position in an unacceptable way.)
This post was deleted for the following reason: We have had a *bunch* of campus protest related stuff recently, and on top of that I feel like the context of this post being Greer's position getting pushback is going to inevitably invite exactly the kind of "okay but lets argue from scratch about whether trans women are reaaaaallly women" thing that's been hurtful as hell to our trans members in particular in past threads. Probably better to give this one a miss. -- cortex
I can't say I have a problem with blocking Germaine Greer from speaking at a university if she's going to be causing harm to Trans people, though it strikes me that it would be even better if they followed her up with a prominent Trans activist, and let them speak as well. If your university is committed to the free exchange of ideas, why not give a platform to two people with opposing views and let the students decide?
posted by SansPoint at 8:18 AM on November 18, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by SansPoint at 8:18 AM on November 18, 2015 [10 favorites]
How to Write a “Political Correctness Run Amok” Article
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:18 AM on November 18, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:18 AM on November 18, 2015 [10 favorites]
this isn't the first time No Platforming has been applied, but it seems we only hear about it when it's applied to feminists
posted by eustatic at 8:20 AM on November 18, 2015
posted by eustatic at 8:20 AM on November 18, 2015
Can surgery, instead, turn a man into an avocado that shoots lasers?
...Er, asking for a friend.
posted by delfin at 8:21 AM on November 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
...Er, asking for a friend.
posted by delfin at 8:21 AM on November 18, 2015 [3 favorites]
It will really blow her mind to find out that even a transgender woman who doesn't have surgery is still a woman.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:23 AM on November 18, 2015 [20 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:23 AM on November 18, 2015 [20 favorites]
this isn't the first time No Platforming has been applied, but it seems we only hear about it when it's applied to feminists
Yes, because nobody cares if racists or fascists are prevented from expressing their reprehensible views. But Germaine Greer is a well-known feminist and writer, who would presumable have plenty of worthwhile things to say in a lecture on "women in political and social life" other than just "trans women aren't real women." Which other individual opinions should qualify one to have their entire speech canceled?
posted by Rangi at 8:27 AM on November 18, 2015
Yes, because nobody cares if racists or fascists are prevented from expressing their reprehensible views. But Germaine Greer is a well-known feminist and writer, who would presumable have plenty of worthwhile things to say in a lecture on "women in political and social life" other than just "trans women aren't real women." Which other individual opinions should qualify one to have their entire speech canceled?
posted by Rangi at 8:27 AM on November 18, 2015
Her point on violence - what's a coherent response to that? She says,
posted by clawsoon at 8:28 AM on November 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
They think that they are entitled to throw things at me and then they say that I am inciting violence against transsexuals. I have never incited anyone to violence against anyone.That seems to be a pretty straightforward argument in her favour, and a pretty straightforward argument against the protesters. What's wrong with that argument?
posted by clawsoon at 8:28 AM on November 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
There is a difference between preventing someone from promoting hate speech and preventing someone from saying things that upset you or belittle you or refuse to address your concerns.
Which one do you think this is?
Trans women are women. Is it all right to support someone who will not acknowledge their existence?
There are lots of prominent feminists with other views (especially around trans people, but also around race) that need to be challenged and confronted. Being a good feminist in one way doesn't give you a pass on your transphobia and racism.
posted by emjaybee at 8:29 AM on November 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
Which one do you think this is?
Trans women are women. Is it all right to support someone who will not acknowledge their existence?
There are lots of prominent feminists with other views (especially around trans people, but also around race) that need to be challenged and confronted. Being a good feminist in one way doesn't give you a pass on your transphobia and racism.
posted by emjaybee at 8:29 AM on November 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
If your university is committed to the free exchange of ideas, why not give a platform to two people with opposing views and let the students decide?
Because it winds up legitimizing arguments that should not be legitimized. By allowing the debate, you are saying "this is a valid point that should be considered." Which, when it comes to the vile idea that a transgender woman is not a woman, is something that needs to be fought against.
Greer is the James Watson of radical feminism, and should be treated accordingly.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:29 AM on November 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
Because it winds up legitimizing arguments that should not be legitimized. By allowing the debate, you are saying "this is a valid point that should be considered." Which, when it comes to the vile idea that a transgender woman is not a woman, is something that needs to be fought against.
Greer is the James Watson of radical feminism, and should be treated accordingly.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:29 AM on November 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
But is it a debate (or a lesser threshold, a valuable debate) if on or both parties just say the same things at each other, over and over? What do we gain from this?
I think booking Greer in the first place has sparked the "debate" that is desired by the related Guardian article, so she can now be un-invited and perhaps a more nuanced discussion can happen with people who don't discard the gender identity of people whose lives baffle that speaker. Her views seem akin to people who declare the world to be flat and refuse to look at pictures of the blue marble - what is there to debate? She's wrong.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:32 AM on November 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
I think booking Greer in the first place has sparked the "debate" that is desired by the related Guardian article, so she can now be un-invited and perhaps a more nuanced discussion can happen with people who don't discard the gender identity of people whose lives baffle that speaker. Her views seem akin to people who declare the world to be flat and refuse to look at pictures of the blue marble - what is there to debate? She's wrong.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:32 AM on November 18, 2015 [5 favorites]
Not paying someone for the privilege of hearing their words while providing a venue and staff to facilitate them is not the same as stifling freedom of speech. Germaine Greer has a platform - large sections of the mainstream media seem hugely enthusiastic to print almost anything she says.
I'm as squicky about shutting down discussion as anyone, especially when someone holds views that just don't hold up to scrutiny and would collapse in any kind of fair debate - but the university has a duty of care to its students, and Greer's position is straight up gross and wrong and it gets people killed, either through suicide or violence inflicted upon them. Universities no-platform speakers every minute of every day, by who they choose to invite and exclude, only when a trans woman doesn't get asked to participate, no one bats an eyelid because it's business as fucking usual.
posted by RokkitNite at 8:33 AM on November 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
I'm as squicky about shutting down discussion as anyone, especially when someone holds views that just don't hold up to scrutiny and would collapse in any kind of fair debate - but the university has a duty of care to its students, and Greer's position is straight up gross and wrong and it gets people killed, either through suicide or violence inflicted upon them. Universities no-platform speakers every minute of every day, by who they choose to invite and exclude, only when a trans woman doesn't get asked to participate, no one bats an eyelid because it's business as fucking usual.
posted by RokkitNite at 8:33 AM on November 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
emjaybee: "There is a difference between preventing someone from promoting hate speech and preventing someone from saying things that upset you or belittle you or refuse to address your concerns.
Which one do you think this is?
Trans women are women. Is it all right to support someone who will not acknowledge their existence?
There are lots of prominent feminists with other views (especially around trans people, but also around race) that need to be challenged and confronted. Being a good feminist in one way doesn't give you a pass on your transphobia and racism."
Again, there is a difference between supporting someone and launching a petition to prevent them from speaking.
Yes, she is not sensitive/aware of trans issues and probably is not even correct about her perspective but that doesn't mean that she should be blocked.
"If you are not supportive of my concerns, you hate me" reminds me of "if you are not with us, you are against us".
posted by TheLittlePrince at 8:33 AM on November 18, 2015
Which one do you think this is?
Trans women are women. Is it all right to support someone who will not acknowledge their existence?
There are lots of prominent feminists with other views (especially around trans people, but also around race) that need to be challenged and confronted. Being a good feminist in one way doesn't give you a pass on your transphobia and racism."
Again, there is a difference between supporting someone and launching a petition to prevent them from speaking.
Yes, she is not sensitive/aware of trans issues and probably is not even correct about her perspective but that doesn't mean that she should be blocked.
"If you are not supportive of my concerns, you hate me" reminds me of "if you are not with us, you are against us".
posted by TheLittlePrince at 8:33 AM on November 18, 2015
Because the debate on trans women being women is over. Her view is just radically out of touch at this point.
I don't think Cardiff is inviting any phrenologist to give lectures either. Because we don't need to debate the validity of their claims.
posted by French Fry at 8:33 AM on November 18, 2015 [15 favorites]
I don't think Cardiff is inviting any phrenologist to give lectures either. Because we don't need to debate the validity of their claims.
posted by French Fry at 8:33 AM on November 18, 2015 [15 favorites]
NoxAeternum Because it winds up legitimizing arguments that should not be legitimized. By allowing the debate, you are saying "this is a valid point that should be considered." Which, when it comes to the vile idea that a transgender woman is not a woman, is something that needs to be fought against.
I agree completely that Greer's argument on transgender women is 100% bullshit. A transgender woman is a woman, 100%. I just find it interesting that all the people who demand that hateful bigots be given a platform to spread their bigotry on college campuses would likely flip their shit over the same school turning around and letting someone with opposing views speak as well.
posted by SansPoint at 8:34 AM on November 18, 2015
I agree completely that Greer's argument on transgender women is 100% bullshit. A transgender woman is a woman, 100%. I just find it interesting that all the people who demand that hateful bigots be given a platform to spread their bigotry on college campuses would likely flip their shit over the same school turning around and letting someone with opposing views speak as well.
posted by SansPoint at 8:34 AM on November 18, 2015
Her point on violence - what's a coherent response to that? She says,
They think that they are entitled to throw things at me and then they say that I am inciting violence against transsexuals. I have never incited anyone to violence against anyone.
That seems to be a pretty straightforward argument in her favour, and a pretty straightforward argument against the protesters. What's wrong with that argument?
A lot.
Transgender individuals are at much higher risk of violence, especially intimate violence. The "trans panic" defense is a real thing, routinely used to allow people to escape consequences for that violence. And when someone like Greer gets up and says that transgender individuals aren't actually the gender they say they are, she helps continue the mentality that fuels that violence.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:36 AM on November 18, 2015 [10 favorites]
They think that they are entitled to throw things at me and then they say that I am inciting violence against transsexuals. I have never incited anyone to violence against anyone.
That seems to be a pretty straightforward argument in her favour, and a pretty straightforward argument against the protesters. What's wrong with that argument?
A lot.
Transgender individuals are at much higher risk of violence, especially intimate violence. The "trans panic" defense is a real thing, routinely used to allow people to escape consequences for that violence. And when someone like Greer gets up and says that transgender individuals aren't actually the gender they say they are, she helps continue the mentality that fuels that violence.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:36 AM on November 18, 2015 [10 favorites]
Identity is a tricky thing, and actually has a lot of moving parts and context. I certainly don't think it's wrong to suggest that "woman" or "man", as an identity (self and otherwise) doesn't always work the same way in some contexts. That is, gender and biological sex, while also not being necessarily closely linked, and both on their own continuum, are going to diverge in many specific contexts. This divergence is what makes this interesting, and also where many of these conversations live.
For example, it is puzzling for many self-identified biological women when biological womanhood is challenged in a birthing and midwifery context. It isn't TERFing to, well, leave out discussions of trans when your primary context is biological birthing and motherhood. This isn't violence or erasure. It is reasonable context.
This is an obvious example, but context matters, and absolutist positions are not going to help. The conversation and dialogue is about when these contexts make things similar, and when we can say "ok, I see that it is different, and that's ok". I mean, feminism has spent a long time teaching us that while men and women should be seen as "equal", this doesn't mean they are the same, and that equality is about making sure everyone has the right height ladder to stand on to get access to the same things.
(Full disclosure: I had a roommate who was a m2f pre- and post-op trans woman when I was a teenager.)
posted by clvrmnky at 8:37 AM on November 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
For example, it is puzzling for many self-identified biological women when biological womanhood is challenged in a birthing and midwifery context. It isn't TERFing to, well, leave out discussions of trans when your primary context is biological birthing and motherhood. This isn't violence or erasure. It is reasonable context.
This is an obvious example, but context matters, and absolutist positions are not going to help. The conversation and dialogue is about when these contexts make things similar, and when we can say "ok, I see that it is different, and that's ok". I mean, feminism has spent a long time teaching us that while men and women should be seen as "equal", this doesn't mean they are the same, and that equality is about making sure everyone has the right height ladder to stand on to get access to the same things.
(Full disclosure: I had a roommate who was a m2f pre- and post-op trans woman when I was a teenager.)
posted by clvrmnky at 8:37 AM on November 18, 2015 [2 favorites]
That's a good point, NoxAeternum. What about the other side of her point, about the promotion of violence against people whose views you disagree with?
posted by clawsoon at 8:39 AM on November 18, 2015
posted by clawsoon at 8:39 AM on November 18, 2015
It isn't TERFing to, well, leave out discussions of trans when your primary context is biological birthing and motherhood.
Trans men can give birth. And trans women can be mothers.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:39 AM on November 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
Trans men can give birth. And trans women can be mothers.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:39 AM on November 18, 2015 [6 favorites]
Yes, because nobody cares if racists or fascists are prevented from expressing their reprehensible views
Assuming this isn't sarcasm, we shouldn't be framing transphobia as somehow less valid or not as big a problem as racism or fascism.
But Germaine Greer is a well-known feminist and writer, who would presumable have plenty of worthwhile things to say in a lecture on "women in political and social life" other than just "trans women aren't real women."
It seems to me that the value of talking about women in political and social life is significantly diminshed by explicitly disqualifying a subset of women from involvement in said life.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:39 AM on November 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
Assuming this isn't sarcasm, we shouldn't be framing transphobia as somehow less valid or not as big a problem as racism or fascism.
But Germaine Greer is a well-known feminist and writer, who would presumable have plenty of worthwhile things to say in a lecture on "women in political and social life" other than just "trans women aren't real women."
It seems to me that the value of talking about women in political and social life is significantly diminshed by explicitly disqualifying a subset of women from involvement in said life.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:39 AM on November 18, 2015 [9 favorites]
There has to be some criteria for "we will invite and pay this speaker." I am fine with that criteria including "But not if they refuse to acknowledge the humanity of transgendered people."
That is not "shutting down speech." It is refusing to hire a certain person to speak. Huge difference.
Ms. Greer is free to continue to speak. No one will jail her for doing so. Her books can still be read, articles still be printed. She can give interviews, go on TV, whatever she wishes.
But she has no right to be hired and paid for her speech by any given entity. And if she chooses to cling to transphobia, I see no reason why this group of students shouldn't get her blocked from being hired.
posted by emjaybee at 8:40 AM on November 18, 2015 [13 favorites]
That is not "shutting down speech." It is refusing to hire a certain person to speak. Huge difference.
Ms. Greer is free to continue to speak. No one will jail her for doing so. Her books can still be read, articles still be printed. She can give interviews, go on TV, whatever she wishes.
But she has no right to be hired and paid for her speech by any given entity. And if she chooses to cling to transphobia, I see no reason why this group of students shouldn't get her blocked from being hired.
posted by emjaybee at 8:40 AM on November 18, 2015 [13 favorites]
This works as a meta-debate - a large chunk of society is saying "anti-trans sentiment is the same kind of idea as anti-semitism, arguing for eugenics, etc - it is not a sentiment that we as a society are willing to accept from serious adults in public positions". Some part of society is saying "no, even if I don't agree with it, it's still up for debate in some way, and a serious intellectual can believe in 'un-men' and still be a respectable person".
It's not really a question of "censorship" or fragile college students or whatever; it's a meta-debate over moving the needle on the humanity of trans people. I tend to think - as a trans person - that saying that people like me are fake or gross or dupes of patriarchy or whatever is the same kind of idea as thinking that God hates gays or believing in the bell curve, and inviting this kind of crank to speak is a waste of university resources and student time.
posted by Frowner at 8:41 AM on November 18, 2015 [12 favorites]
It's not really a question of "censorship" or fragile college students or whatever; it's a meta-debate over moving the needle on the humanity of trans people. I tend to think - as a trans person - that saying that people like me are fake or gross or dupes of patriarchy or whatever is the same kind of idea as thinking that God hates gays or believing in the bell curve, and inviting this kind of crank to speak is a waste of university resources and student time.
posted by Frowner at 8:41 AM on November 18, 2015 [12 favorites]
Because the debate on trans women being women is over. Her view is just radically out of touch at this point.
Except that it isn't. It's like the trans movement refuses to learn anything from the gay/lesbian movement: if you don't win hearts and minds first before seeking legal protection and a degree of societal acceptance, but instead just try to shut up or silence dissent, you will only have a nation of enemies.
posted by resurrexit at 8:42 AM on November 18, 2015
Except that it isn't. It's like the trans movement refuses to learn anything from the gay/lesbian movement: if you don't win hearts and minds first before seeking legal protection and a degree of societal acceptance, but instead just try to shut up or silence dissent, you will only have a nation of enemies.
posted by resurrexit at 8:42 AM on November 18, 2015
resurrexit: Except that it isn't. It's like the trans movement refuses to learn anything from the gay/lesbian movement: if you don't win hearts and minds first before seeking legal protection and a degree of societal acceptance, but instead just try to shut up or silence dissent, you will only have a nation of enemies.
Right, how did that chant go? "We're here, we're queer, pretty-please could you accept us as human beings?" Something like that.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:45 AM on November 18, 2015 [11 favorites]
Right, how did that chant go? "We're here, we're queer, pretty-please could you accept us as human beings?" Something like that.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:45 AM on November 18, 2015 [11 favorites]
@roomthreeseventeen, while true (and I will note this is why I was careful with the use of the word "biological" in my comment) this is a specific context that I was actually discussing. As in, this is a case where many identifications of "trans" does not work.
There are places where biology matters, and where it doesn't. Where gender matters, and where it doesn't. There are places where an absolutist stance is actually its own violence against others, and part of that is because "identity" is not always about self-identification.
posted by clvrmnky at 8:45 AM on November 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
There are places where biology matters, and where it doesn't. Where gender matters, and where it doesn't. There are places where an absolutist stance is actually its own violence against others, and part of that is because "identity" is not always about self-identification.
posted by clvrmnky at 8:45 AM on November 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Cis says it all, clvrmnky
posted by Annika Cicada at 8:46 AM on November 18, 2015
posted by Annika Cicada at 8:46 AM on November 18, 2015
Because the debate on trans women being women is over. Her view is just radically out of touch at this point.
Except that it isn't.
Much as I fucking hate it, I think Houston proves this point. The vote on HERO is not a sign of a finished fight. Which is all the more reason to tell Greer what a shithead she is, mind you.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:46 AM on November 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
Except that it isn't.
Much as I fucking hate it, I think Houston proves this point. The vote on HERO is not a sign of a finished fight. Which is all the more reason to tell Greer what a shithead she is, mind you.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:46 AM on November 18, 2015 [1 favorite]
zombieflanders: "It seems to me that the value of talking about women in political and social life is significantly diminshed by explicitly disqualifying a subset of woman from involvement in said life."
Even if I agree with your statement (hesitation because I dont know exactly what she will say, she is supposed to deliver a lecture on women in political and social life), a significantly diminished value is still better than 0 value which is what will happen if she doesn't speak. Unless you are sure that her talk would be exclusively about trans women and thus have negative value.
if the protesters were serious about enhancing value, the petition should have been about providing a platform for a trans activist to speak about trans women in political or social life, not preventing someone from speaking on topics wider than trans issues.
posted by TheLittlePrince at 8:46 AM on November 18, 2015
Even if I agree with your statement (hesitation because I dont know exactly what she will say, she is supposed to deliver a lecture on women in political and social life), a significantly diminished value is still better than 0 value which is what will happen if she doesn't speak. Unless you are sure that her talk would be exclusively about trans women and thus have negative value.
if the protesters were serious about enhancing value, the petition should have been about providing a platform for a trans activist to speak about trans women in political or social life, not preventing someone from speaking on topics wider than trans issues.
posted by TheLittlePrince at 8:46 AM on November 18, 2015
That's a good point, NoxAeternum. What about the other side of her point, about the promotion of violence against people whose views you disagree with?
Except that you can't ignore the context here, either. For transgender individuals, acknowledgement of the legitimacy of their gender is literally a matter of life or death. And for her to say that this is just a difference of opinion is incredibly offensive - she's outright rejecting the gender of these individuals.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:46 AM on November 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
Except that you can't ignore the context here, either. For transgender individuals, acknowledgement of the legitimacy of their gender is literally a matter of life or death. And for her to say that this is just a difference of opinion is incredibly offensive - she's outright rejecting the gender of these individuals.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:46 AM on November 18, 2015 [7 favorites]
« Older The flowers and the candles are here to protect us... | Grown men and women put tighty-whitey underwear on... Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by TheLittlePrince at 8:18 AM on November 18, 2015 [2 favorites]