1986 in Comics
November 24, 2015 9:18 PM Subscribe
David Gibbons talks Watchmen vs Dark Knight Returns - part of a series of posts on The Dark Knight Returns.
I can't really picture either of them being friends with anyone, actually.
posted by shakespeherian at 9:44 PM on November 24, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by shakespeherian at 9:44 PM on November 24, 2015 [9 favorites]
Dan Dennett used to own a sailboat with Jerry Fodor
posted by grobstein at 9:44 PM on November 24, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by grobstein at 9:44 PM on November 24, 2015 [7 favorites]
I think that they were on a friendly basis back in the eighties when they were both engaged in rebooting/revamping comic franchises in an exciting way (Swamp Thing and Miracleman for Moore; Daredevil and Batman for Miller), and particularly in the near-synchronous launches of Watchmen and TDKR. Moore even poked relatively gentle fun at many of Miller's early tropes in "Grit!" That is very much no longer the case, though. And, shakespeherian, they both at least have collaborators that they still work with--Miller with Robert Rodriguez, Moore with a number of people (although not Gibbons)--and Moore will mention other people that he's on good terms with, although his best and oldest friend, Steve "No Relation" Moore, died recently.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:50 PM on November 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:50 PM on November 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
What's this? No Death of Speedy? An outrage sir!
(Although in fairness I doubt Miller was reading it. Kinda think Moore read it on release with no evidence. For me all three books are intertwined in my head; it was like watching a three-way wrestling match in slow motion as they came out that year. It's hard to say for sure given the slow and sporadic L&R schedule but I would guess the higher production overhead associated with both DC titles meant those scripts were probably wrapped in large part before Jaime started his arc.)
posted by mwhybark at 9:52 PM on November 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
(Although in fairness I doubt Miller was reading it. Kinda think Moore read it on release with no evidence. For me all three books are intertwined in my head; it was like watching a three-way wrestling match in slow motion as they came out that year. It's hard to say for sure given the slow and sporadic L&R schedule but I would guess the higher production overhead associated with both DC titles meant those scripts were probably wrapped in large part before Jaime started his arc.)
posted by mwhybark at 9:52 PM on November 24, 2015 [5 favorites]
Moore and Miller were friends? That's hard to picture. Though I dunno, it could make the world's greatest buddy movie...
Why not? They both hate women and non-whites, that's plenty to bond over.
posted by kafziel at 9:52 PM on November 24, 2015
Why not? They both hate women and non-whites, that's plenty to bond over.
posted by kafziel at 9:52 PM on November 24, 2015
Why not? They both hate women and non-whites, that's plenty to bond over.
?
This is news to me. Moore that is, not Miller.
posted by Reyturner at 10:06 PM on November 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
?
This is news to me. Moore that is, not Miller.
posted by Reyturner at 10:06 PM on November 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
This is news to me. Moore that is, not Miller.
Previously.
posted by kafziel at 10:20 PM on November 24, 2015
Previously.
posted by kafziel at 10:20 PM on November 24, 2015
Well, that tells us he doesn't like Grant Morrison. Big news.
posted by Artw at 10:27 PM on November 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:27 PM on November 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Moore on Miller circa 2011:
Well, Frank Miller is someone whose work I’ve barely looked at for the past twenty years. I thought the Sin City stuff was unreconstructed misogyny, 300 appeared to be wildly ahistoric, homophobic and just completely misguided. I think that there has probably been a rather unpleasant sensibility apparent in Frank Miller’s work for quite a long time. Since I don’t have anything to do with the comics industry, I don’t have anything to do with the people in it. I heard about the latest outpourings regarding the Occupy movement. It’s about what I’d expect from him. It’s always seemed to me that the majority of the comics field, if you had to place them politically, you’d have to say centre-right. That would be as far towards the liberal end of the spectrum as they would go. I’ve never been in any way, I don’t even know if I’m centre-left. I’ve been outspoken about that since the beginning of my career. So yes I think it would be fair to say that me and Frank Miller have diametrically opposing views upon all sorts of things, but certainly upon the Occupy movement.
As far as I can see, the Occupy movement is just ordinary people reclaiming rights which should always have been theirs. I can’t think of any reason why as a population we should be expected to stand by and see a gross reduction in the living standards of ourselves and our kids, possibly for generations, when the people who have got us into this have been rewarded for it; they’ve certainly not been punished in any way because they’re too big to fail. I think that the Occupy movement is, in one sense, the public saying that they should be the ones to decide who’s too big to fail. It’s a completely justified howl of moral outrage and it seems to be handled in a very intelligent, non-violent way, which is probably another reason why Frank Miller would be less than pleased with it. I’m sure if it had been a bunch of young, sociopathic vigilantes with Batman make-up on their faces, he’d be more in favour of it. We would definitely have to agree to differ on that one.
posted by Artw at 10:46 PM on November 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
Well, Frank Miller is someone whose work I’ve barely looked at for the past twenty years. I thought the Sin City stuff was unreconstructed misogyny, 300 appeared to be wildly ahistoric, homophobic and just completely misguided. I think that there has probably been a rather unpleasant sensibility apparent in Frank Miller’s work for quite a long time. Since I don’t have anything to do with the comics industry, I don’t have anything to do with the people in it. I heard about the latest outpourings regarding the Occupy movement. It’s about what I’d expect from him. It’s always seemed to me that the majority of the comics field, if you had to place them politically, you’d have to say centre-right. That would be as far towards the liberal end of the spectrum as they would go. I’ve never been in any way, I don’t even know if I’m centre-left. I’ve been outspoken about that since the beginning of my career. So yes I think it would be fair to say that me and Frank Miller have diametrically opposing views upon all sorts of things, but certainly upon the Occupy movement.
As far as I can see, the Occupy movement is just ordinary people reclaiming rights which should always have been theirs. I can’t think of any reason why as a population we should be expected to stand by and see a gross reduction in the living standards of ourselves and our kids, possibly for generations, when the people who have got us into this have been rewarded for it; they’ve certainly not been punished in any way because they’re too big to fail. I think that the Occupy movement is, in one sense, the public saying that they should be the ones to decide who’s too big to fail. It’s a completely justified howl of moral outrage and it seems to be handled in a very intelligent, non-violent way, which is probably another reason why Frank Miller would be less than pleased with it. I’m sure if it had been a bunch of young, sociopathic vigilantes with Batman make-up on their faces, he’d be more in favour of it. We would definitely have to agree to differ on that one.
posted by Artw at 10:46 PM on November 24, 2015 [3 favorites]
1986? Aww, yeah.
I literally just did a happy dance in front of my wife tonight when I discovered that Nuke was in the Jessica Jones series on Netflix.
Gimme a red.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:47 PM on November 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
I literally just did a happy dance in front of my wife tonight when I discovered that Nuke was in the Jessica Jones series on Netflix.
Gimme a red.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:47 PM on November 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
If I ever write a gigantic supervises style exegis on the subject of comics it'll be focused on 1986 as a slice through time, everythung captured in minute detail.
posted by Artw at 10:54 PM on November 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:54 PM on November 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
1986 in comics - mean, holy shit, look at it. And that's just a U.S.-centric summary.
posted by Artw at 11:00 PM on November 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 11:00 PM on November 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
If I ever write a gigantic supervises style exegis on the subject of comics
That should of course read "Supergods". Clearly the malign influence of Sicko the Snake jinxed my autocorrect at the mention of The Enemy's book.
posted by Artw at 11:05 PM on November 24, 2015
That should of course read "Supergods". Clearly the malign influence of Sicko the Snake jinxed my autocorrect at the mention of The Enemy's book.
posted by Artw at 11:05 PM on November 24, 2015
So Moore/Miller is literally like Green Arrow and The Question in The Dark Knight Strikes Again?
posted by Apocryphon at 11:09 PM on November 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Apocryphon at 11:09 PM on November 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
Absolutely! Even for those of us who didn't care about comics, we knew it was some kind of new Golden age, and a new kind of selling out. Love and Rockets had given way to nuevo retro whatever, led by Frank Miller and the Maus dude. U2s Joshua Tree felt like the same move, harsh and retro and sold out, and the rest of us would eventually catch up and see the wisdom of the shift.
posted by notyou at 11:10 PM on November 24, 2015
posted by notyou at 11:10 PM on November 24, 2015
...I think that the Occupy movement is, in one sense, the public saying that they should be the ones to decide who’s too big to fail. It’s a completely justified howl of moral outrage and it seems to be handled in a very intelligent, non-violent way, which is probably another reason why Frank Miller would be less than pleased with it. I’m sure if it had been a bunch of young, sociopathic vigilantes with Batman make-up on their faces, he’d be more in favour of it. We would definitely have to agree to differ on that one.
Ok, I take back all the bad stuff I've said about Alan Moore. That was awesome.
posted by zardoz at 12:58 AM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
Ok, I take back all the bad stuff I've said about Alan Moore. That was awesome.
posted by zardoz at 12:58 AM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
I can't really picture either of them being friends with anyone, actually. Really? I recently saw The Mindscape of Alan Moore with somebody who knew nothing about him and by the end of it she was ready to move to Northampton and become his disciple. He seems like a super-friendly old hippie. And I can't find the link, but I think he recently spent a bunch of money to help a friend with his immigration battle in the UK. Anyway the only link you need on the time period is The Last War In Albion, though seeing Brendan McCarthy give a talk recently did throw an outsider's perspective on the War.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 2:16 AM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 2:16 AM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
There is a situation I call Screwy Old Cartoonist Disease. Lots and lots of writer/artist cartoonists (and some illustrator-only cartoonists) eventually become very peculiar indeed, and peculiar in ways that you don't see as often in prose writers, film directors and other artists. They tend to get obsessed with some weird theory about how the world works, often inspired by the work of others but they twist it and make it very much their own. It can get genuinely tragic.
Frank Miller became a racist and a conspiracy nut. Moore and Morrison got super into magic, and rather eccentric magic even by the standards of the folks who believe in that stuff. Dave Sim became a really sad, reclusive, deeply misogynist character obsessed with his own weird take on the bible. And going back a ways, you have guys like Steve Ditko and Neil Adams. Ditko got so into Ayn Rand bullshit that he kind of out-Rands Rand, and Neil Adams keeps pushing the Expanded Earth hypothesis (he's got a DVD he'd like to sell you) and he even managed to work that shit into a Batman comic.
With a lot of cartoonists, their weird theories eventually kind of ruin their work, or at least make it so strange it only works as outsider art. You could literally watch Sim lose his mind during the run of Cerebus, and Ditko went from the guy who co-created Spider-Man to some guy publishing black and white comics that read like stuff a crazy man would hand you on the bus. Miller's work has become incoherent and full of repugnant ideas. It's aggro, racist crud, and it's POORLY DONE aggro, racist crud. I wish somebody would just slap the pen out of the poor guy's hand, he's embarrassing himself at this point.
Women are only recently becoming well-known cartoonists, so perhaps in the decades to come we'll see them falling prey to Screwy Old Cartoonist Disease too. Weirdly it doesn't often seem to affect alt comics types the same way. R. Crumb is a screwy old cartoonist, but he was a screwy young cartoonist and his screwiness is still working very well for him. I keep worrying Dan Clowes and Chris Ware are going to go screwy on me, they seem like they have the potential, but so far they both appear to be doing fine.
When I pick up a Moore comic these days I can't get through it. It's so sad because he was such a genius of the form. He gave great interviews too, and always struck me as such a smart, witty and sensible fellow. I remember reading some interview when he first got into the magic stuff, and being stunned. It was like he came down with SOCD overnight. I don't know if he's racist or sexist now, but he sure didn't used to be.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:34 AM on November 25, 2015 [19 favorites]
Frank Miller became a racist and a conspiracy nut. Moore and Morrison got super into magic, and rather eccentric magic even by the standards of the folks who believe in that stuff. Dave Sim became a really sad, reclusive, deeply misogynist character obsessed with his own weird take on the bible. And going back a ways, you have guys like Steve Ditko and Neil Adams. Ditko got so into Ayn Rand bullshit that he kind of out-Rands Rand, and Neil Adams keeps pushing the Expanded Earth hypothesis (he's got a DVD he'd like to sell you) and he even managed to work that shit into a Batman comic.
With a lot of cartoonists, their weird theories eventually kind of ruin their work, or at least make it so strange it only works as outsider art. You could literally watch Sim lose his mind during the run of Cerebus, and Ditko went from the guy who co-created Spider-Man to some guy publishing black and white comics that read like stuff a crazy man would hand you on the bus. Miller's work has become incoherent and full of repugnant ideas. It's aggro, racist crud, and it's POORLY DONE aggro, racist crud. I wish somebody would just slap the pen out of the poor guy's hand, he's embarrassing himself at this point.
Women are only recently becoming well-known cartoonists, so perhaps in the decades to come we'll see them falling prey to Screwy Old Cartoonist Disease too. Weirdly it doesn't often seem to affect alt comics types the same way. R. Crumb is a screwy old cartoonist, but he was a screwy young cartoonist and his screwiness is still working very well for him. I keep worrying Dan Clowes and Chris Ware are going to go screwy on me, they seem like they have the potential, but so far they both appear to be doing fine.
When I pick up a Moore comic these days I can't get through it. It's so sad because he was such a genius of the form. He gave great interviews too, and always struck me as such a smart, witty and sensible fellow. I remember reading some interview when he first got into the magic stuff, and being stunned. It was like he came down with SOCD overnight. I don't know if he's racist or sexist now, but he sure didn't used to be.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:34 AM on November 25, 2015 [19 favorites]
Morrisons pretty much always been into magic, Zenith (1987) having big dollops of Chaos Magic in it and his big ritual to keep The Invisibles rolling being 1996.
posted by Artw at 5:16 AM on November 25, 2015
posted by Artw at 5:16 AM on November 25, 2015
The thing with Moore and magic is slightly more complicated than just an old guy becoming crazy. It's a bit unfair to place him alongside Sims and Miller.
First Moore often pokes fun about it; second his belief system is actually pretty coherent when you take the time to read about it.
He's not saying that by practicing magic he can fly or cure cancer, he's saying that his practice of magic is as valid as any religion or more widely as anything ever imagined by the human mind.
Basically whatever your imagination creates holds power upon the real world even if it's obviously not real. It's very fitting for a fiction writer...
So instead of submitting yourself to other people imagination by following mainstream religions for exemple (you can also apply it to politics) you could create your own belief system and it should be as real and as influential to you than any other idea can be.
It becomes interesting when you learn that Moore's deity, Glycon, was a sockpuppet created in 2 nd century macedonia and recognized as such at the time.
So he's saying all gods are hoaxes but mine being presented as such is the most honest of them all.
He actually explained it all in a comic.
posted by SageLeVoid at 5:25 AM on November 25, 2015 [12 favorites]
First Moore often pokes fun about it; second his belief system is actually pretty coherent when you take the time to read about it.
He's not saying that by practicing magic he can fly or cure cancer, he's saying that his practice of magic is as valid as any religion or more widely as anything ever imagined by the human mind.
Basically whatever your imagination creates holds power upon the real world even if it's obviously not real. It's very fitting for a fiction writer...
So instead of submitting yourself to other people imagination by following mainstream religions for exemple (you can also apply it to politics) you could create your own belief system and it should be as real and as influential to you than any other idea can be.
It becomes interesting when you learn that Moore's deity, Glycon, was a sockpuppet created in 2 nd century macedonia and recognized as such at the time.
So he's saying all gods are hoaxes but mine being presented as such is the most honest of them all.
He actually explained it all in a comic.
posted by SageLeVoid at 5:25 AM on November 25, 2015 [12 favorites]
Moores actual main cranky-old-manism is being pissed off at DC Comics and not particularly caring who knows it. I usually skip any portions of any interviews about that, as it's pretty dull and interviewers should know better. The Internet is surprised and freaked out by this every time though.
posted by Artw at 5:42 AM on November 25, 2015
posted by Artw at 5:42 AM on November 25, 2015
There is a situation I call Screwy Old Cartoonist Disease. Lots and lots of writer/artist cartoonists (and some illustrator-only cartoonists) eventually become very peculiar indeed, and peculiar in ways that you don't see as often in prose writers, film directors and other artists. They tend to get obsessed with some weird theory about how the world works, often inspired by the work of others but they twist it and make it very much their own. It can get genuinely tragic.
Also, Michael Leunig. Went from being a gentle, hippyish conscience of left-of-centre Australia to being a cranky misogynist, irrationalist and possible anti-Semite.
posted by acb at 6:54 AM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, Michael Leunig. Went from being a gentle, hippyish conscience of left-of-centre Australia to being a cranky misogynist, irrationalist and possible anti-Semite.
posted by acb at 6:54 AM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Artw:
1986, the worst year in comics.
posted by charred husk at 7:24 AM on November 25, 2015 [5 favorites]
"1986 in comics - mean, holy shit, look at it. And that's just a U.S.-centric summary.""With issue #75, Marvel cancels ROM."
1986, the worst year in comics.
posted by charred husk at 7:24 AM on November 25, 2015 [5 favorites]
It becomes interesting when you learn that Moore's deity, Glycon, was a sockpuppet created in 2 nd century macedonia and recognized as such at the time.
So he's saying all gods are hoaxes but mine being presented as such is the most honest of them all.
Effectively, Glycon was the Flying Spaghetti Monster or J.R. "Bob" Dobbs of his day.
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:46 AM on November 25, 2015 [5 favorites]
So he's saying all gods are hoaxes but mine being presented as such is the most honest of them all.
Effectively, Glycon was the Flying Spaghetti Monster or J.R. "Bob" Dobbs of his day.
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:46 AM on November 25, 2015 [5 favorites]
Screwy Old Cartoonist Disease
That's a lot of very, very different things you're lumping together, UH:
- Ditko is an objectivist, yeah, and not particularly subtle about it, but that's his political viewpoint, and Ditko himself, while something of a loner--he's somewhere between Thomas Pynchon and J.D. Salinger in terms of avoiding his fans and the general public--still did comics work for quite some time, although I haven't seen any lately; in fact, some of his Avenging World and Mr. A stories, while noxious story-wise, are among the most visually striking things he's ever produced. Much the same can be said of Peter Bagge's recent work.
- Yeah, Neal Adams has some crazy theory about continental drift, and seems oddly obsessed by bodybuilding, but otherwise seems pretty personable. And Batman: Odyssey was a weird mess, but not that far off the beam in terms of letting a veteran cartoonist with strong opinions on things do their dream project without having to follow established continuity if they don't want to. Compare and contrast with John Byrne, a former Neal Adams imitator who seems to be a 100% legit SOCD poster child (and, generally, kind of an asshole), twice having a pre-teen character fall in love with a much older man, which is just skeevy.
- Dave Sim's TANGENT rant caught a lot of people by surprise, including quite a few female fans, although some of his critics (particularly in The Comics Journal) have had some misgivings about the treatment of women in Cerebus for some time. The thing that struck me about TANGENT is how completely obnoxious and unsubtle it is, as if Sim really wanted there to be absolutely no mistake about his proto-MGTOW beliefs, just in case there was someone out there thinking it was part of the book or Sim just having a laugh or something.
- Speaking of which, Frank Miller's decline has been much more gradual, which has led some otherwise pretty smart people to believe that at least some of his earlier work was simply him taking the piss; The Dark Knight Strikes Back, aka DK2, seemed to get a lot of this sort of apologia. You don't tend to hear that sort of thing any more. This Wired retrospective of the man and his work (released in tandem with the premiere of Sin City 2, which bombed badly) does a good job of putting Miller's past and current work into perspective, and also gives some indication of his current physical and mental status. One note that I'd like to make, in reference to the current TDKR retrospective, is that I'm still a bit astonished and dismayed at how nobody else seems to have commented (save for a brief note in The Hollywood Reporter, of all the places) on how much it owes to Howard Chaykin's earlier and superior work in American Flagg!, at least the first year's worth or so. About all Miller doesn't lift from Chaykin (and from the 70s Dirty Harry/Death Wish/Taxi Driver urban vigilante subgenre) are his own rather striking splash pages.
- I kind of get what you're saying about some of Moore's current work; I feel something akin to physical pain when I think of him doing a Crossed miniseries. But I think that he's generally much more self-aware than at least some of the people above, and with much more of a sense of humor; I agree with Strange Interlude that "Glycon was the Flying Spaghetti Monster or J.R. "Bob" Dobbs of his day." And Moore also seems much more publicly personable; here's a snippet of a talk he gave as part of some event protesting the closing of a public library.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:47 AM on November 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
That's a lot of very, very different things you're lumping together, UH:
- Ditko is an objectivist, yeah, and not particularly subtle about it, but that's his political viewpoint, and Ditko himself, while something of a loner--he's somewhere between Thomas Pynchon and J.D. Salinger in terms of avoiding his fans and the general public--still did comics work for quite some time, although I haven't seen any lately; in fact, some of his Avenging World and Mr. A stories, while noxious story-wise, are among the most visually striking things he's ever produced. Much the same can be said of Peter Bagge's recent work.
- Yeah, Neal Adams has some crazy theory about continental drift, and seems oddly obsessed by bodybuilding, but otherwise seems pretty personable. And Batman: Odyssey was a weird mess, but not that far off the beam in terms of letting a veteran cartoonist with strong opinions on things do their dream project without having to follow established continuity if they don't want to. Compare and contrast with John Byrne, a former Neal Adams imitator who seems to be a 100% legit SOCD poster child (and, generally, kind of an asshole), twice having a pre-teen character fall in love with a much older man, which is just skeevy.
- Dave Sim's TANGENT rant caught a lot of people by surprise, including quite a few female fans, although some of his critics (particularly in The Comics Journal) have had some misgivings about the treatment of women in Cerebus for some time. The thing that struck me about TANGENT is how completely obnoxious and unsubtle it is, as if Sim really wanted there to be absolutely no mistake about his proto-MGTOW beliefs, just in case there was someone out there thinking it was part of the book or Sim just having a laugh or something.
- Speaking of which, Frank Miller's decline has been much more gradual, which has led some otherwise pretty smart people to believe that at least some of his earlier work was simply him taking the piss; The Dark Knight Strikes Back, aka DK2, seemed to get a lot of this sort of apologia. You don't tend to hear that sort of thing any more. This Wired retrospective of the man and his work (released in tandem with the premiere of Sin City 2, which bombed badly) does a good job of putting Miller's past and current work into perspective, and also gives some indication of his current physical and mental status. One note that I'd like to make, in reference to the current TDKR retrospective, is that I'm still a bit astonished and dismayed at how nobody else seems to have commented (save for a brief note in The Hollywood Reporter, of all the places) on how much it owes to Howard Chaykin's earlier and superior work in American Flagg!, at least the first year's worth or so. About all Miller doesn't lift from Chaykin (and from the 70s Dirty Harry/Death Wish/Taxi Driver urban vigilante subgenre) are his own rather striking splash pages.
- I kind of get what you're saying about some of Moore's current work; I feel something akin to physical pain when I think of him doing a Crossed miniseries. But I think that he's generally much more self-aware than at least some of the people above, and with much more of a sense of humor; I agree with Strange Interlude that "Glycon was the Flying Spaghetti Monster or J.R. "Bob" Dobbs of his day." And Moore also seems much more publicly personable; here's a snippet of a talk he gave as part of some event protesting the closing of a public library.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:47 AM on November 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
Morrison argues that DK2 is a hidden masterpeice. Not sure that I am convinced by this enough to reread the thing.
posted by Artw at 8:54 AM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 8:54 AM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
I like this bit from the Article on Alan Vs Frank:
You know, I’ve always thought of Alan as being like a Mozart. He hears the whole symphony in his head and he writes out all the parts and the artist or the orchestra is the interpreter of that and actually kind of realizes those notes and those marks and those suggestions and those chords, whereas Frank is more like a jazz virtuoso, a Miles Davis or something. He’ll take a basic theme and then run with it and, you know, change things on the fly. We hardly changed anything when we were doing Watchmen. I would talk to Alan about what we were going to do, Alan would write the words, I would draw the panels and that was kind of done. With Frank, again, we would talk but then based on what I gave back to him, he would put new ideas in or change things around or… It was much more free form and organic and I enjoyed both approaches. The most important thing is to work with a writer who’s prepared to put as much effort into it as I’m prepared to put and certainly that’s one of the things that distinguishes Alan and Frank, their absolute dedication to what they do. That, to me, is the most important thing, As for the actual circumstances and the actual details of how you perform it, that’s not so important.
Also this on grids, but I'm weird about grids:
I mean, I’d hit upon the idea of doing Watchmen on a nine-panel grid, which Alan very much supported me in and, of course, which gave him wonderful storytelling opportunities because he could predict exactly where panels were going to fall on a page and how big they were going to be. And Frank, completely independently, had come up with the idea of doing what is essentially a 16-panel grid, a 4-by-4 grid, with Dark Knight, but he rather hid it by having everything based on that proportion but sometimes having small panels inset on larger panels. Slightly more free form. So I guess we both hit on a similar idea at the same time. I think a lot of my storytelling influences and Alan’s storytelling influences were the same as Frank had anyway, people like Will Eisner and Harvey Kurtzman, Jack Kirby, obviously, and the people who worked on EC Comics, you know? Will Elder and Wally Wood in my case particularly. But I don’t think there was a direct influence on a storytelling level.
posted by Artw at 10:45 AM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
You know, I’ve always thought of Alan as being like a Mozart. He hears the whole symphony in his head and he writes out all the parts and the artist or the orchestra is the interpreter of that and actually kind of realizes those notes and those marks and those suggestions and those chords, whereas Frank is more like a jazz virtuoso, a Miles Davis or something. He’ll take a basic theme and then run with it and, you know, change things on the fly. We hardly changed anything when we were doing Watchmen. I would talk to Alan about what we were going to do, Alan would write the words, I would draw the panels and that was kind of done. With Frank, again, we would talk but then based on what I gave back to him, he would put new ideas in or change things around or… It was much more free form and organic and I enjoyed both approaches. The most important thing is to work with a writer who’s prepared to put as much effort into it as I’m prepared to put and certainly that’s one of the things that distinguishes Alan and Frank, their absolute dedication to what they do. That, to me, is the most important thing, As for the actual circumstances and the actual details of how you perform it, that’s not so important.
Also this on grids, but I'm weird about grids:
I mean, I’d hit upon the idea of doing Watchmen on a nine-panel grid, which Alan very much supported me in and, of course, which gave him wonderful storytelling opportunities because he could predict exactly where panels were going to fall on a page and how big they were going to be. And Frank, completely independently, had come up with the idea of doing what is essentially a 16-panel grid, a 4-by-4 grid, with Dark Knight, but he rather hid it by having everything based on that proportion but sometimes having small panels inset on larger panels. Slightly more free form. So I guess we both hit on a similar idea at the same time. I think a lot of my storytelling influences and Alan’s storytelling influences were the same as Frank had anyway, people like Will Eisner and Harvey Kurtzman, Jack Kirby, obviously, and the people who worked on EC Comics, you know? Will Elder and Wally Wood in my case particularly. But I don’t think there was a direct influence on a storytelling level.
posted by Artw at 10:45 AM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
1986 was all about Oink! for me.
Always like setting what Dave Gibbons has to say. One of the virtues of the Watchmen film was that it made him a bit better known amongst non-comics fans (er, like me).
posted by comealongpole at 11:14 AM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Always like setting what Dave Gibbons has to say. One of the virtues of the Watchmen film was that it made him a bit better known amongst non-comics fans (er, like me).
posted by comealongpole at 11:14 AM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oink was a thing of glory.
posted by Artw at 11:55 AM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 11:55 AM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
"With issue #75, Marvel cancels ROM."
ROM was actually quite good for what it was and its time, and the run ended well. Written by Bill Mantlo, who also did Micronauts and many other successful comics. Mantlo's personal story is a tragic one, however.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:18 PM on November 25, 2015
ROM was actually quite good for what it was and its time, and the run ended well. Written by Bill Mantlo, who also did Micronauts and many other successful comics. Mantlo's personal story is a tragic one, however.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:18 PM on November 25, 2015
When I pick up a Moore comic these days I can't get through it. It's so sad because he was such a genius of the form. He gave great interviews too, and always struck me as such a smart, witty and sensible fellow. I remember reading some interview when he first got into the magic stuff, and being stunned. It was like he came down with SOCD overnight. I don't know if he's racist or sexist now, but he sure didn't used to be.
For sexism, the main thing I've noticed, is it is nearly impossible for him to write a female character than hasn't been sexually abused, either directly, or in a very thinly disguised metaphor. And oh yeah, portraying raping a bunch of schoolgirls as a laugh.
And even in Promethia, he has to have the main female character have sex with and get "mentored" by a creepy old guy who takes over the narrative for the largest part of the comic. So yeah, Moores attitude toward women, while not as bad as Sim's or Miller's is still really fucking skeevy.
Oh yeah, and racism. Playing the whole "Hah hah, I'm doing the racist portrayal of Chinese because it's how the pulps did it" card doesn't work. A racist portrayal is a racist portrayal, and he needs to be called out on it. And then taking a racist bit of iconography, and trying to excuse it as a beloved part of his childhood? Telling people of color that no, they're wrong, he the white guy is telling them it's not really racist?
Seriously. Fuck that shit.
I'm sure he doesn't think that he's a misogynistic bigot, and you can make excuses for him all over the lace fr being an old hippy that's out of touch. But you know, those excuses don't really fly any more. I don't have to read his crap, I don't have to give money to him.
There's a hell of a lot of good comic art out there now- frankly, I'd rather read Ursula Vernon or Megan Lavey-heaton than give money t eiter f the decrepit ol relics celebrated in the FP.
posted by happyroach at 12:35 PM on November 25, 2015
For sexism, the main thing I've noticed, is it is nearly impossible for him to write a female character than hasn't been sexually abused, either directly, or in a very thinly disguised metaphor. And oh yeah, portraying raping a bunch of schoolgirls as a laugh.
And even in Promethia, he has to have the main female character have sex with and get "mentored" by a creepy old guy who takes over the narrative for the largest part of the comic. So yeah, Moores attitude toward women, while not as bad as Sim's or Miller's is still really fucking skeevy.
Oh yeah, and racism. Playing the whole "Hah hah, I'm doing the racist portrayal of Chinese because it's how the pulps did it" card doesn't work. A racist portrayal is a racist portrayal, and he needs to be called out on it. And then taking a racist bit of iconography, and trying to excuse it as a beloved part of his childhood? Telling people of color that no, they're wrong, he the white guy is telling them it's not really racist?
Seriously. Fuck that shit.
I'm sure he doesn't think that he's a misogynistic bigot, and you can make excuses for him all over the lace fr being an old hippy that's out of touch. But you know, those excuses don't really fly any more. I don't have to read his crap, I don't have to give money to him.
There's a hell of a lot of good comic art out there now- frankly, I'd rather read Ursula Vernon or Megan Lavey-heaton than give money t eiter f the decrepit ol relics celebrated in the FP.
posted by happyroach at 12:35 PM on November 25, 2015
Dark Knight III: The Master Race Is a Strange Sequel to A Batman Classic
posted by Artw at 6:17 PM on November 25, 2015
posted by Artw at 6:17 PM on November 25, 2015
Welp, DK3 looks even more skippable than the second one. The way Azz writes text messages, it's as if he's had them described to him but never actually seen any.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:48 PM on November 25, 2015
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:48 PM on November 25, 2015
Ditko is an objectivist, yeah, and not particularly subtle about it, but that's his political viewpoint
Without getting into any arguments about Objectivism, I will say that I wasn't thinking of stuff like Mr. A. I was thinking of 100% wacky tracts like the Public Service Package. Look at a panel like this and tell me how it differs from something you'd find on the floor of the Greyhound station. It's Ditko taking Randian ideas and spinning them into some whole other weird thing of his own.
So he's saying all gods are hoaxes but mine being presented as such is the most honest of them all.
That comic went some way toward explaining why Moore worships a sock puppet. But I don't get the feeling this is all just some wiseguy prank on the order of the FSM. I think he's quite into funky spells and rituals and mysticism, and that's really not something I saw coming from the author of Watchmen.
As a stark contrast to the Golliwog stuff, in 1997 Moore wrote an issue of The Spirit in which he attempted to portray the hugely problematic character Ebony as a racial caricature seen through the eyes of a bigot. The bigot was narrating, and said something about how he was incapable of seeing POC as anything but stereotypes, and then Ebony showed up with all the yassuh, Missa Spirit stuff. It was awkward as hell, and seemed like Moore was desperately trying to include this pivotal character in the Spirit comics and stay true to the Ebony from Will Eisner's old comics, while also lampshading that this character is pretty horrifying to modern eyes. It was like Moore was trying to have his cake while also admitting the cake was expired and probably poisonous.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 8:50 PM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Without getting into any arguments about Objectivism, I will say that I wasn't thinking of stuff like Mr. A. I was thinking of 100% wacky tracts like the Public Service Package. Look at a panel like this and tell me how it differs from something you'd find on the floor of the Greyhound station. It's Ditko taking Randian ideas and spinning them into some whole other weird thing of his own.
So he's saying all gods are hoaxes but mine being presented as such is the most honest of them all.
That comic went some way toward explaining why Moore worships a sock puppet. But I don't get the feeling this is all just some wiseguy prank on the order of the FSM. I think he's quite into funky spells and rituals and mysticism, and that's really not something I saw coming from the author of Watchmen.
As a stark contrast to the Golliwog stuff, in 1997 Moore wrote an issue of The Spirit in which he attempted to portray the hugely problematic character Ebony as a racial caricature seen through the eyes of a bigot. The bigot was narrating, and said something about how he was incapable of seeing POC as anything but stereotypes, and then Ebony showed up with all the yassuh, Missa Spirit stuff. It was awkward as hell, and seemed like Moore was desperately trying to include this pivotal character in the Spirit comics and stay true to the Ebony from Will Eisner's old comics, while also lampshading that this character is pretty horrifying to modern eyes. It was like Moore was trying to have his cake while also admitting the cake was expired and probably poisonous.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 8:50 PM on November 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Moore's Crossed miniseries was pretty terrific, really.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:26 PM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:26 PM on November 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
If anything Morrison is not so into magic as he used to be, judging from a couple of interviews I read / heard recently-ish.... but you don't really believe in chaos magic anyway, well you 'believe' but you don't believe believe, you pretend to believe or at least pretend to believe and believe believe at the same time - it's complicated
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:46 AM on November 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:46 AM on November 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Moore comes over as an amiable old hippy most of the time, with a certain amount of self-mocking humour about himself and his magic. Although he's had some major falling outs with people, and was particularly vicious re a journalist not too long ago for no real valid reason I could work out. Also his 'you're either on team Moore or Morrison and if you're on team Morrison I want nothing to do with you' is a bit silly. (Please don't curse me or send socko after me, Alan)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:51 AM on November 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 1:51 AM on November 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Look at a panel like this and tell me how it differs from something you'd find on the floor of the Greyhound station.
If you're talking about Chick tracts, I'm not really sure where you're seeing the similarity, aside from the over-the-top air of assurance in the righteousness of the message they're putting across. Ditko has always been a better artist, by orders of magnitude, than either Chick or his favorite ghost artist, and even when employing the hoary old cliche of having labels written directly on the representational figure (in the manner of oldskool editorial cartoonists such as Herblock or Bill Mauldin), he's using the labels to add depth and texture to the figure; that cyclopean microphone that he's holding looks like something that Doctor Strange might pick up in another dimension.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:08 AM on November 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you're talking about Chick tracts, I'm not really sure where you're seeing the similarity, aside from the over-the-top air of assurance in the righteousness of the message they're putting across. Ditko has always been a better artist, by orders of magnitude, than either Chick or his favorite ghost artist, and even when employing the hoary old cliche of having labels written directly on the representational figure (in the manner of oldskool editorial cartoonists such as Herblock or Bill Mauldin), he's using the labels to add depth and texture to the figure; that cyclopean microphone that he's holding looks like something that Doctor Strange might pick up in another dimension.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:08 AM on November 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
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posted by zompist at 9:31 PM on November 24, 2015 [4 favorites]