Touring America has become a nightmare
November 29, 2015 6:32 PM Subscribe
For a British band to tour America it costs 7000 dollars to even get into the place and the visas arrive so late so you have to cancel your flights and gigs and rebook everything losing money and gigs before you even get there between flight reschedules .
In the post-Napster industry, touring became the go-to answer to the financial woes of both labels and bands - tours used to promote the album, now a well received album is a ticket to play music festivals and smaller tours throughout the year.
However, international bands have to face a big climb to tap the traditionally tough US market: not only is the visa approval process convoluted, expensive, but also grossly unreliable, and may cause a band to be $15'000 behind even before playing a gig, this if their visas are approved at all, resulting on the bands' savings going up in smoke, which seems to be one of the leading reasons to suddenly cancelled tours (something not exclusive to the United States).
To fight and bring attention to this issue, music blog Louder Than War has started a campaign, but for the time being, the solution to many smaller bands seem to be simple: begrudgingly forfeit or at least seriously reconsider touring across the Atlantic, and focus on Europe.
In the post-Napster industry, touring became the go-to answer to the financial woes of both labels and bands - tours used to promote the album, now a well received album is a ticket to play music festivals and smaller tours throughout the year.
However, international bands have to face a big climb to tap the traditionally tough US market: not only is the visa approval process convoluted, expensive, but also grossly unreliable, and may cause a band to be $15'000 behind even before playing a gig, this if their visas are approved at all, resulting on the bands' savings going up in smoke, which seems to be one of the leading reasons to suddenly cancelled tours (something not exclusive to the United States).
To fight and bring attention to this issue, music blog Louder Than War has started a campaign, but for the time being, the solution to many smaller bands seem to be simple: begrudgingly forfeit or at least seriously reconsider touring across the Atlantic, and focus on Europe.
A majority of the problem is that the USCIS is funded almost entirely by user fees. So while other departments have budgets which restrict their growth, the USCIS basically is incentivized to grow as much as possible. There's no political accountability besides some bleeding heart liberals and there's no political will because immigrants are the red headed stepchild of America's family.
There's no real quick and practical solution to this problem. It's probably going to take decades to be resolved fully and for that I'm sad.
posted by Talez at 6:45 PM on November 29, 2015 [5 favorites]
There's no real quick and practical solution to this problem. It's probably going to take decades to be resolved fully and for that I'm sad.
posted by Talez at 6:45 PM on November 29, 2015 [5 favorites]
And this can also bite American bands with foreign members in the ass, as Pere Ubu found out in 2013.
posted by SansPoint at 6:47 PM on November 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by SansPoint at 6:47 PM on November 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
In 2015 only the rich survive. Only the stadium bands like Radiohead can afford to tour America.
I am sooooo there!!
posted by shockingbluamp at 6:56 PM on November 29, 2015
I am sooooo there!!
posted by shockingbluamp at 6:56 PM on November 29, 2015
This is totally a problem; Brits coming to America and then taking all our jobs.
A good man used to be able to find a job in this country. These days it's all third tier New Wave synth players, Brit Pop never-really-weres, and former members of The Fall working down at the mill.
posted by thivaia at 6:59 PM on November 29, 2015 [57 favorites]
A good man used to be able to find a job in this country. These days it's all third tier New Wave synth players, Brit Pop never-really-weres, and former members of The Fall working down at the mill.
posted by thivaia at 6:59 PM on November 29, 2015 [57 favorites]
To be fair, everybody is a former member of The Fall.
posted by dng at 7:02 PM on November 29, 2015 [53 favorites]
posted by dng at 7:02 PM on November 29, 2015 [53 favorites]
"...by any bunch of stupid Europeans who come over here with their big hairdos and plan on taking all our money, instead of giving your money, where is belongs, to a decent American artist like myself."
posted by phooky at 7:04 PM on November 29, 2015 [25 favorites]
posted by phooky at 7:04 PM on November 29, 2015 [25 favorites]
Whatever happened to bands coming in on tourist visas and playing a handful of cash-under-the-table gigs? Has social media made that impossible to do without attracting trouble? Seems like many of the really interesting UK bands I saw in the 90s were working this angle.
posted by ryanshepard at 7:10 PM on November 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by ryanshepard at 7:10 PM on November 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
To be fair, everybody is a former member of The Fall.
Hand Raised.
posted by alex_skazat at 7:10 PM on November 29, 2015 [14 favorites]
Hand Raised.
posted by alex_skazat at 7:10 PM on November 29, 2015 [14 favorites]
I believe that the canonical statement from Mark E. Smith is "If it's me and yer granny on bongos, it's The Fall."
posted by maudlin at 7:25 PM on November 29, 2015 [29 favorites]
posted by maudlin at 7:25 PM on November 29, 2015 [29 favorites]
Ryanshepard: There are still bands who do it that way -- I see them occasionally in small clubs and bars here in New York City. But that's exactly the problem: if you want to play bigger, more renowned venues, it takes more than packing a suitcase and a gig bag and saving up a couple hundred bucks of spending money.
posted by monospace at 7:27 PM on November 29, 2015
posted by monospace at 7:27 PM on November 29, 2015
Whatever happened to bands coming in on tourist visas and playing a handful of cash-under-the-table gigs?
The cost of gas went way up.
Not that there aren't DIY bands on tourist visas sleeping in the back of a van somewhere right now. I think is more like bands that are in between that and someone like Radiohead who knows they'll fill a stadium every night. They have to make a profit, because touring is where the money is now, but they don't have the money to blow if the visas don't come through and they don't have the support to really rebook and repromote the tour if the dates change.
I can see if you're a musician in a successful but not ultra famous band, trying to make a living, that would be a hard decision to make.
posted by bradbane at 7:42 PM on November 29, 2015
The cost of gas went way up.
Not that there aren't DIY bands on tourist visas sleeping in the back of a van somewhere right now. I think is more like bands that are in between that and someone like Radiohead who knows they'll fill a stadium every night. They have to make a profit, because touring is where the money is now, but they don't have the money to blow if the visas don't come through and they don't have the support to really rebook and repromote the tour if the dates change.
I can see if you're a musician in a successful but not ultra famous band, trying to make a living, that would be a hard decision to make.
posted by bradbane at 7:42 PM on November 29, 2015
The article starts out relatively sympathetic, pointing out that British bands pay far more to get to America than vice versa — which sounds like the concern is basic fairness (as well as the musical/cultural benefits of more British bands touring in America). But then, wait a minute, it seems like he actually wants to be a free rider who doesn't have to pay the normal taxes that other people pay!
Even when you get here there are the taxes. 30 per cent of your gig fee is taken off you every night. Paying tax in a country you don’t even live in is strange and annoying and cripples the already decimated tour budget. don’t get me wrong – I’m happy to pay tax ina [sic] country I live in and vote in but everywhere I go?
Gee, I didn't expect to see a call for lower business taxes posted to Metafilter!
Of course, there might be some positive effects of exempting foreign bands from those taxes. For that matter, I could think of positive effects of exempting lots of businesses from all kinds of taxes (it could keep prices lower, promote innovation and economic growth, etc.). But I don't think many Mefites would like to see that.
I'm an American, but I pay the Value Added Tax when I visit the UK and buy stuff there. Would he prefer that I be exempt from the VAT, and he'll pay a little more? After all, I can't vote in the UK, so why should I pay any British taxes? I have a hunch that if this were the proposal, he'd suddenly start "evolving" on the question of whether people should have to pay taxes in countries in which they can't vote.
The thing is, taxes aren't just based on whether you're able to vote. The idea should be that you're getting a benefit, so you should support the public services that make it possible for you to do that. There's a health department that should be making sure the food in America is safe for the band to eat. There's a fire department to stop the venue his band is playing in from burning down. There are police and courts to deter people from stealing their instruments and equipment and money. Etc.
posted by John Cohen at 8:02 PM on November 29, 2015 [15 favorites]
Even when you get here there are the taxes. 30 per cent of your gig fee is taken off you every night. Paying tax in a country you don’t even live in is strange and annoying and cripples the already decimated tour budget. don’t get me wrong – I’m happy to pay tax ina [sic] country I live in and vote in but everywhere I go?
Gee, I didn't expect to see a call for lower business taxes posted to Metafilter!
Of course, there might be some positive effects of exempting foreign bands from those taxes. For that matter, I could think of positive effects of exempting lots of businesses from all kinds of taxes (it could keep prices lower, promote innovation and economic growth, etc.). But I don't think many Mefites would like to see that.
I'm an American, but I pay the Value Added Tax when I visit the UK and buy stuff there. Would he prefer that I be exempt from the VAT, and he'll pay a little more? After all, I can't vote in the UK, so why should I pay any British taxes? I have a hunch that if this were the proposal, he'd suddenly start "evolving" on the question of whether people should have to pay taxes in countries in which they can't vote.
The thing is, taxes aren't just based on whether you're able to vote. The idea should be that you're getting a benefit, so you should support the public services that make it possible for you to do that. There's a health department that should be making sure the food in America is safe for the band to eat. There's a fire department to stop the venue his band is playing in from burning down. There are police and courts to deter people from stealing their instruments and equipment and money. Etc.
posted by John Cohen at 8:02 PM on November 29, 2015 [15 favorites]
I believe that you are exempt from VAT, John Cohen, assuming you're not a resident of the EU. You can get a VAT refund at the airport.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:10 PM on November 29, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:10 PM on November 29, 2015 [14 favorites]
You can get a VAT refund on goods bought in the UK and carried out with you. This does not apply to services or goods consumed in the country, and presumably this covers everything in a tour budget.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 8:18 PM on November 29, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by the agents of KAOS at 8:18 PM on November 29, 2015 [14 favorites]
VAT is not the same as what sounds to me like income tax. When I go to the UK for work, I don't have to pay any taxes on the money I make while I'm there.
posted by inparticularity at 8:25 PM on November 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by inparticularity at 8:25 PM on November 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
To be fair, all they wanna do is *bang* *bang* *bang* and *ka-ching* and take our money.
posted by ckape at 8:51 PM on November 29, 2015 [23 favorites]
posted by ckape at 8:51 PM on November 29, 2015 [23 favorites]
Mod note: One comment deleted. Please don't bring people's profile info over to the main page; just one of those lines we ask folks to observe here.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:04 PM on November 29, 2015
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:04 PM on November 29, 2015
Who exactly is witholding this 30% tax from gig fees? The venue? This doesn't happen for US bands touring in the States.
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:09 PM on November 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by grumpybear69 at 9:09 PM on November 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
We got hit by senseless visa delays on an artist who was supposed to come over and play for a specific date. It should have been a no-brainer. He lives abroad, has no intention to settle here, and has received such a visa before without incident. But the departure date came and went, and no visa. No explanation, no timeline, nothing. Just absolute and total silence from the consulate while piles of money were basically dragged outside and set on fire.
As far as the taxation stuff goes, America has a ridiculous tax system. People who have never had to file an American-style income tax return in their lives are thrown in the deep end. For a big act this isn't an issue, the venues provide tax forms and the managers take care of a lot, but for a small act trying to shoestring a tour together, headaches like EINs, TINs, and other things that make no damned sense even to most Americans? Forget it. Easier to fly under the radar if you're coming from a visa-waived country.
posted by 1adam12 at 9:18 PM on November 29, 2015 [7 favorites]
As far as the taxation stuff goes, America has a ridiculous tax system. People who have never had to file an American-style income tax return in their lives are thrown in the deep end. For a big act this isn't an issue, the venues provide tax forms and the managers take care of a lot, but for a small act trying to shoestring a tour together, headaches like EINs, TINs, and other things that make no damned sense even to most Americans? Forget it. Easier to fly under the radar if you're coming from a visa-waived country.
posted by 1adam12 at 9:18 PM on November 29, 2015 [7 favorites]
Who exactly is witholding this 30% tax from gig fees? The venue? This doesn't happen for US bands touring in the States.
The promoter/venue, yeah, AFAIK, although possibly the booking agent, if the agent is booking the entire US tour. It's not an issue for US bands touring the States because special tax laws apply to foreign performers. If you're a US resident it's assumed you're either an employee of/partner in some kind of corporation that covers band business (and so that entity would be responsible for tax shit), or an independent contractor (in which case you're responsible for your own tax shit.)
IRS.gov - Withholding of Tax on Payments to Foreign Athletes and Entertainers.
gov.uk - Pay tax in the U.K. as a foreign performer
Musical America blog - The 30% Withholding Tax Isn't Just For Performers! - includes a link to the IRS pdf that gives tax details on our treaties with other countries.
Apparently we have a variety of tax treaties with other countries wherein income earned in that country is subject to income taxation, and their residents who earn income in the US have to file & pay US income tax. For example, per the UK link above, 20% is the expected withholding for non-UK residents who perform in the UK. So the griping about the 30% goes the other way, too.
OTOH, the visa fees and bureaucratic nonsense appear unique to the US, at least among "first world" countries. See previously on MetaFilter about Pere Ubu's visa troubles a couple of years ago.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:33 PM on November 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
The promoter/venue, yeah, AFAIK, although possibly the booking agent, if the agent is booking the entire US tour. It's not an issue for US bands touring the States because special tax laws apply to foreign performers. If you're a US resident it's assumed you're either an employee of/partner in some kind of corporation that covers band business (and so that entity would be responsible for tax shit), or an independent contractor (in which case you're responsible for your own tax shit.)
IRS.gov - Withholding of Tax on Payments to Foreign Athletes and Entertainers.
gov.uk - Pay tax in the U.K. as a foreign performer
Musical America blog - The 30% Withholding Tax Isn't Just For Performers! - includes a link to the IRS pdf that gives tax details on our treaties with other countries.
Apparently we have a variety of tax treaties with other countries wherein income earned in that country is subject to income taxation, and their residents who earn income in the US have to file & pay US income tax. For example, per the UK link above, 20% is the expected withholding for non-UK residents who perform in the UK. So the griping about the 30% goes the other way, too.
OTOH, the visa fees and bureaucratic nonsense appear unique to the US, at least among "first world" countries. See previously on MetaFilter about Pere Ubu's visa troubles a couple of years ago.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:33 PM on November 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
Fuck, you mean no more Bono?
posted by mattoxic at 9:37 PM on November 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by mattoxic at 9:37 PM on November 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
I believe that you are exempt from VAT, John Cohen, assuming you're not a resident of the EU. You can get a VAT refund at the airport.
Oh ... wish I had known that when I went to the UK (I'm only an American citizen, not an EU citizen). So it was a bad example, and I can see why he thinks that's unfair ... but I'd just say the UK has a bad policy. When I was in the UK I benefitted from all sorts of public services — why shouldn't I pay taxes there?
posted by John Cohen at 9:43 PM on November 29, 2015
Oh ... wish I had known that when I went to the UK (I'm only an American citizen, not an EU citizen). So it was a bad example, and I can see why he thinks that's unfair ... but I'd just say the UK has a bad policy. When I was in the UK I benefitted from all sorts of public services — why shouldn't I pay taxes there?
posted by John Cohen at 9:43 PM on November 29, 2015
The current iteration of King Crimson played the US last year and is doing Canada right now. They're not exactly playing the same venues as Muse or U2. Then again, Fripp knows how to maximize revenue a dozen different ways so I'm sure the visa costs are easily taken care of.
posted by Ber at 10:00 PM on November 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Ber at 10:00 PM on November 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Maybe the point here is that smaller bands have something to offer America above and beyond a few thousand bucks in visa fees. Maybe waiving those fees could even be considered an investment in a band that may get bigger and have more to contribute to the economy and general well-being of the Republic. I think that the odds are better that they'd have something original to contribute to the arts than, say, the Rolling Stones.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:05 PM on November 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:05 PM on November 29, 2015 [4 favorites]
I have yet to find a country that didn't have visa bullshit and didn't charge foreigners a zillion dollars in fees and taxes for not getting a ton back.
The O-visa, which the article is about, was one of the options people kept telling me to pursue when I found myself running out of time on my OPT and still jobless. It'll be easy, they said. It'll be quick, they said. I want to plaster this article all over their face and tell them to shut the fuck up if they've never had to deal with visa stuff ever.
posted by divabat at 10:24 PM on November 29, 2015 [9 favorites]
The O-visa, which the article is about, was one of the options people kept telling me to pursue when I found myself running out of time on my OPT and still jobless. It'll be easy, they said. It'll be quick, they said. I want to plaster this article all over their face and tell them to shut the fuck up if they've never had to deal with visa stuff ever.
posted by divabat at 10:24 PM on November 29, 2015 [9 favorites]
.When I go to the UK for work, I don't have to pay any taxes on the money I make while I'm there.
You would if you were going there to temporarily work for a UK company or to freelance for UK clients, which is basically what they're doing here.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 10:57 PM on November 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
You would if you were going there to temporarily work for a UK company or to freelance for UK clients, which is basically what they're doing here.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 10:57 PM on November 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
“For most of my life, the world shrank and technology progressed; this was the natural order of things. Few of us clocked on that “the natural order of things” is entirely man-made, and that a world that kept expanding as technology regressed was not only possible but waiting in the wings.”
― David Mitchell, The Bone Clocks
It's not perfect, but that quote immediately jumped to mind. Our culture will always suffer from arbitrary restrictions, whether they're technological or bureaucratic or financial.
posted by mannequito at 11:32 PM on November 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
― David Mitchell, The Bone Clocks
It's not perfect, but that quote immediately jumped to mind. Our culture will always suffer from arbitrary restrictions, whether they're technological or bureaucratic or financial.
posted by mannequito at 11:32 PM on November 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
The Fine Article says that the UK only charges $30 per person for a performance visa for a visiting American band. How about some American reciprocity?
posted by monotreme at 11:39 PM on November 29, 2015
posted by monotreme at 11:39 PM on November 29, 2015
you would think that some trade agreement would prohibit this sort of differential treatment?
posted by mary8nne at 12:13 AM on November 30, 2015
posted by mary8nne at 12:13 AM on November 30, 2015
The problem is easily solved if the band members simply select groupies to marry.
posted by rongorongo at 12:37 AM on November 30, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by rongorongo at 12:37 AM on November 30, 2015 [6 favorites]
Maybe we could reduce this tax burden by some innovative ideas, like a heavy fine for downtuning guitars past D
posted by thelonius at 1:02 AM on November 30, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 1:02 AM on November 30, 2015 [10 favorites]
It's a lot easier to tour continental Europe than England. My old band skipped England (in 2008) because of the differences in visa friction.
posted by Golem XIV at 2:04 AM on November 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Golem XIV at 2:04 AM on November 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
> Whatever happened to bands coming in on tourist visas and playing a handful of cash-under-the-table gigs?
It's a gamble because you're pitting "getting noticed by music fans in the US" against "getting noticed by the US government". If the feds happen to see you doing paying work on a tourist visa, you can be arrested, deported and denied re-entry to the US for a few decades. Which will put a crimp in future tour plans.
posted by at by at 2:20 AM on November 30, 2015 [8 favorites]
It's a gamble because you're pitting "getting noticed by music fans in the US" against "getting noticed by the US government". If the feds happen to see you doing paying work on a tourist visa, you can be arrested, deported and denied re-entry to the US for a few decades. Which will put a crimp in future tour plans.
posted by at by at 2:20 AM on November 30, 2015 [8 favorites]
This is pretty much true for any artist (who is generally self-employed) selling work in a foreign country.
In the case of UK performers in the USA, in addition to the visa issues the US income tax system needs them to do a few things. (a) Visit a tax office with a passport and proof of their home address and file for an ITIN. That gets you an ID in the tax system. (b) Do not spend more than 30 days on US soil per year. If you do that, the IRS expect you to pay US income tax. As long as you don't do that, you are a "non-resident alien" and, under the terms of the UK-USA double taxation treaty, you get to pay income tax to the country you live in. (The IRS still expect you to file a tax form every year—1040?—but you're not liable to actually pay them any money.) (c) For any source of US income, you need to fill out a W8-BEN form that they can feed back to the IRS to prove that you're an exempt entity (a non-resident alien). You need the ITIN in order to complete the W8-BEN. File a W8-BEN and the payer can pay you in full; fail to do so and 30% withholding tax applies.
(This is roughly similar to the arrangement with other nation's double taxation schemes. Except that the USA's withholding tax is actually at the low end of the scale. IIRC Japan withholds 10% from UK sales on general principle, and 40% if you don't do the paperwork, and do not for the love of Cthulhu get me started on Japanese/British tax forms: France trousers 60% unless you can send them a certificate of residence stamped by HMRC, and HMRC take three months to answer letters on paper these days because they're downsizing like mad and trying force everyone to do business via the internet, which comes to a screeching halt when business runs head-first into a foreign tax system.)
posted by cstross at 2:52 AM on November 30, 2015 [13 favorites]
In the case of UK performers in the USA, in addition to the visa issues the US income tax system needs them to do a few things. (a) Visit a tax office with a passport and proof of their home address and file for an ITIN. That gets you an ID in the tax system. (b) Do not spend more than 30 days on US soil per year. If you do that, the IRS expect you to pay US income tax. As long as you don't do that, you are a "non-resident alien" and, under the terms of the UK-USA double taxation treaty, you get to pay income tax to the country you live in. (The IRS still expect you to file a tax form every year—1040?—but you're not liable to actually pay them any money.) (c) For any source of US income, you need to fill out a W8-BEN form that they can feed back to the IRS to prove that you're an exempt entity (a non-resident alien). You need the ITIN in order to complete the W8-BEN. File a W8-BEN and the payer can pay you in full; fail to do so and 30% withholding tax applies.
(This is roughly similar to the arrangement with other nation's double taxation schemes. Except that the USA's withholding tax is actually at the low end of the scale. IIRC Japan withholds 10% from UK sales on general principle, and 40% if you don't do the paperwork, and do not for the love of Cthulhu get me started on Japanese/British tax forms: France trousers 60% unless you can send them a certificate of residence stamped by HMRC, and HMRC take three months to answer letters on paper these days because they're downsizing like mad and trying force everyone to do business via the internet, which comes to a screeching halt when business runs head-first into a foreign tax system.)
posted by cstross at 2:52 AM on November 30, 2015 [13 favorites]
Could we tour via video simulation? Still a live performance, just er, meatless. Or better still by robot music-mecha things? Like maybe a sixty-foot Kate Bush bot with laser eyes?
(Somehow it would get loose in the streets of Manhattan, wouldn't it?)
LET ME IN AT YOUR WINDOW-OW-OW-OW
posted by Segundus at 3:20 AM on November 30, 2015 [14 favorites]
(Somehow it would get loose in the streets of Manhattan, wouldn't it?)
LET ME IN AT YOUR WINDOW-OW-OW-OW
posted by Segundus at 3:20 AM on November 30, 2015 [14 favorites]
I believe that the canonical statement from Mark E. Smith is "If it's me and yer granny on bongos, it's The Fall."
Well actually he would have said, "If it's me and yer granny on bongos, it's The Fall-uh."
posted by chococat at 3:53 AM on November 30, 2015 [6 favorites]
Well actually he would have said, "If it's me and yer granny on bongos, it's The Fall-uh."
posted by chococat at 3:53 AM on November 30, 2015 [6 favorites]
I appreciate that it's tough but considering that European/UK artists are free to apply for generous (or at least somewhat available) grants given out by their government that support touring, particularly to festivals in the US/Canada, I'm less sympathetic. There is absolutely nothing like that for US bands.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:47 AM on November 30, 2015
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:47 AM on November 30, 2015
What was once at the heart of rock culture from the Beatles onwards is finally coming to an end because of the prohibitive costs, visa bills and taxes that cripple any touring UK band.
Plus this stinks of special pleading via Boomer nostalgia. The Beatles and even the Sex Pistols were a long time ago. There's an Internet now, you don't need to tour to get discovered in America. Why should British rock bands need our tears more than say African R&B singers? I hate being the "I DONT CARE" guy but this just rubs me the wrong way as a musician in the states where nobody in our own culture gives a flying fuck about funding the arts why should we go out of our way to help make it easier for people from more prosperous nations to romp around through our clubs.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:58 AM on November 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
Plus this stinks of special pleading via Boomer nostalgia. The Beatles and even the Sex Pistols were a long time ago. There's an Internet now, you don't need to tour to get discovered in America. Why should British rock bands need our tears more than say African R&B singers? I hate being the "I DONT CARE" guy but this just rubs me the wrong way as a musician in the states where nobody in our own culture gives a flying fuck about funding the arts why should we go out of our way to help make it easier for people from more prosperous nations to romp around through our clubs.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 4:58 AM on November 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
I appreciate that it's tough but considering that European/UK artists are free to apply for generous (or at least somewhat available) grants given out by their government that support touring, particularly to festivals in the US/Canada, I'm less sympathetic. There is absolutely nothing like that for US bands.
Well, that's America's own bloody fault then. Its sad that funding for the arts in the UK have taken a hit recently, because it makes a lot of economic sense (cultural exports amount to around £18 billion a year).
If you have a problem with arts funding in America, then maybe you should stop being the "I DON'T CARE GUY" and tackle that, rather than adopting easy protectionist platitudes - "Why should we allow these Brits to romp through our clubs!?"
posted by TheAlarminglySwollenFinger at 5:19 AM on November 30, 2015 [11 favorites]
Well, that's America's own bloody fault then. Its sad that funding for the arts in the UK have taken a hit recently, because it makes a lot of economic sense (cultural exports amount to around £18 billion a year).
If you have a problem with arts funding in America, then maybe you should stop being the "I DON'T CARE GUY" and tackle that, rather than adopting easy protectionist platitudes - "Why should we allow these Brits to romp through our clubs!?"
posted by TheAlarminglySwollenFinger at 5:19 AM on November 30, 2015 [11 favorites]
The solution to bad policy (defunding the arts) is probably not to create more bad policy (visa applications as a formalized process of bribery).
posted by ardgedee at 5:36 AM on November 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by ardgedee at 5:36 AM on November 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
. but I'd just say the UK has a bad policy. When I was in the UK I benefitted from all sorts of public services — why shouldn't I pay taxes there?
Probably because it would be a monster hassle for the tax collectors to even deal with the complications for what would likely be a pittance. Much like most NHS care facilities will just wave Americans through treatment for free rather than deal with American's nightmare insurance.
posted by srboisvert at 5:56 AM on November 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Probably because it would be a monster hassle for the tax collectors to even deal with the complications for what would likely be a pittance. Much like most NHS care facilities will just wave Americans through treatment for free rather than deal with American's nightmare insurance.
posted by srboisvert at 5:56 AM on November 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Tax FAQs for Artists from Abroad thinking about coming to America.
posted by BWA at 6:20 AM on November 30, 2015
posted by BWA at 6:20 AM on November 30, 2015
The Beatles and even the Sex Pistols were a long time ago.
Yeah, but PiL's still touring America with new material. That's not an outfit with much money these days, but touring is absolutely essential to keep the fan base activated and the US can't be ignored. The visa costs and hassles will be a mammoth overhead on what is already a complex and costly process. And I know that things like school choir and orchestra tours - things which are really beneficial to everyone - just don't happen now, because it'd be cheaper to send everyone on a cruise of the Caribbean.
This could be fixed, at vanishingly little cost to everyone, if one-millionth of the effort spent on putting together bollockry like TTIP was expended on setting up mutual mechanisms for managing this stuff. And it would be a much better world as a result.
posted by Devonian at 6:28 AM on November 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yeah, but PiL's still touring America with new material. That's not an outfit with much money these days, but touring is absolutely essential to keep the fan base activated and the US can't be ignored. The visa costs and hassles will be a mammoth overhead on what is already a complex and costly process. And I know that things like school choir and orchestra tours - things which are really beneficial to everyone - just don't happen now, because it'd be cheaper to send everyone on a cruise of the Caribbean.
This could be fixed, at vanishingly little cost to everyone, if one-millionth of the effort spent on putting together bollockry like TTIP was expended on setting up mutual mechanisms for managing this stuff. And it would be a much better world as a result.
posted by Devonian at 6:28 AM on November 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
Can they play for free on a tourist visa, and have the venue include a commemorative CD with every ticket that coincidentally has a large royalty built in that goes straight to the band?
posted by miyabo at 6:32 AM on November 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by miyabo at 6:32 AM on November 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
The Mekons figured this out years ago. You just marry Americans and relocate to Chicago.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:58 AM on November 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:58 AM on November 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
If you have a problem with arts funding in America, then maybe you should stop being the "I DON'T CARE GUY" and tackle that
I will and I do. I don't see how that addresses my issue with this complaint being special pleading towards bringing more British bands in particular to the US, which will in fact negatively effect US artists by taking slots from them. I guess I'm saying, sorry the system is unfair and broken but the effort to fix it seems to be better spent elsewhere currently while the effect is...some bands can't tour in the US? Not really a world-shattering injustice.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:22 AM on November 30, 2015
I will and I do. I don't see how that addresses my issue with this complaint being special pleading towards bringing more British bands in particular to the US, which will in fact negatively effect US artists by taking slots from them. I guess I'm saying, sorry the system is unfair and broken but the effort to fix it seems to be better spent elsewhere currently while the effect is...some bands can't tour in the US? Not really a world-shattering injustice.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:22 AM on November 30, 2015
I hate being the "I DONT CARE" guy but this just rubs me the wrong way as a musician in the states where nobody in our own culture gives a flying fuck about funding the arts why should we go out of our way to help make it easier for people from more prosperous nations to romp around through our clubs.
Britain is not more prosperous than the US. But by all means, continue to campaign against er, maybe Norwegian and Saudi bands coming over and taking your jerbs - there are precious few countries more prosperous than the US.
I will and I do. I don't see how that addresses my issue with this complaint being special pleading towards bringing more British bands in particular to the US, which will in fact negatively effect US artists by taking slots from them.
Reciprocity. US bands are not frozen out of Britain (or the rest of Europe) in the same way, and so it seems to in fact be unfair to the advantage of those very US bands whose slots you're so concerned about to exclude British and other European bands from performing in the US.
Then of course there is the public. You're denying them access to a lot of culture by freezing foreign bands out, and no, substituting a local band just isn't the same.
Frankly, we'd be seeing these same complaints against any large country with a major role in the global music business if they acted similarly. The focus is on the US because they are both the biggest and one of the worst offenders.
posted by Dysk at 7:32 AM on November 30, 2015 [8 favorites]
Britain is not more prosperous than the US. But by all means, continue to campaign against er, maybe Norwegian and Saudi bands coming over and taking your jerbs - there are precious few countries more prosperous than the US.
I will and I do. I don't see how that addresses my issue with this complaint being special pleading towards bringing more British bands in particular to the US, which will in fact negatively effect US artists by taking slots from them.
Reciprocity. US bands are not frozen out of Britain (or the rest of Europe) in the same way, and so it seems to in fact be unfair to the advantage of those very US bands whose slots you're so concerned about to exclude British and other European bands from performing in the US.
Then of course there is the public. You're denying them access to a lot of culture by freezing foreign bands out, and no, substituting a local band just isn't the same.
Frankly, we'd be seeing these same complaints against any large country with a major role in the global music business if they acted similarly. The focus is on the US because they are both the biggest and one of the worst offenders.
posted by Dysk at 7:32 AM on November 30, 2015 [8 favorites]
...the effort to fix it seems to be better spent elsewhere currently while...
Ah, yes, there are always worse problems though. Perhaps just working towards solving one problem, or even registering with institutions that you find this policy annoying, problematic, and worthy of re-thinking will help.
The UK itself has been vicious in it's use of visas recently. Academics and artists have really suffered, with even Ai Wei Wei needing ministerial oversight to escape China. There is a systemic problem with restricting the travel rights of people, and a larger discussion needs to be had - but this is not the time. Just for now, though, I'm glad to see that this is getting some attention.
posted by The River Ivel at 7:40 AM on November 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Ah, yes, there are always worse problems though. Perhaps just working towards solving one problem, or even registering with institutions that you find this policy annoying, problematic, and worthy of re-thinking will help.
The UK itself has been vicious in it's use of visas recently. Academics and artists have really suffered, with even Ai Wei Wei needing ministerial oversight to escape China. There is a systemic problem with restricting the travel rights of people, and a larger discussion needs to be had - but this is not the time. Just for now, though, I'm glad to see that this is getting some attention.
posted by The River Ivel at 7:40 AM on November 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
while the effect is...some bands can't tour in the US? Not really a world-shattering injustice.
It is world shattering to me if I can't see the Twilight Sad at least once a year.
This was a really interesting post, I had no idea visas for touring were that expensive (ok, I had no idea they existed). As someone who listens to tiny indie UK bands more often than US bands, this was was really eye-opening.
posted by banjo_and_the_pork at 7:41 AM on November 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
It is world shattering to me if I can't see the Twilight Sad at least once a year.
This was a really interesting post, I had no idea visas for touring were that expensive (ok, I had no idea they existed). As someone who listens to tiny indie UK bands more often than US bands, this was was really eye-opening.
posted by banjo_and_the_pork at 7:41 AM on November 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
Why should British rock bands need our tears more than say African R&B singers?Are you genuinely standing up for African R&B singers, Potomac Avenue, or are you just flinging a dying cat?
posted by Sonny Jim at 7:59 AM on November 30, 2015 [7 favorites]
there are precious few countries more prosperous than the US.
Is this like per capita income where we pretend the "prosperity" is evenly spread when it patently is not?
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 8:06 AM on November 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Is this like per capita income where we pretend the "prosperity" is evenly spread when it patently is not?
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 8:06 AM on November 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
So, can we drop the foreign-bands-are-stealing-our-timeslots bit? Also, the relative prosperity of the US is not really relevant to the issue at hand, which is that touring in foreign countries is exceedingly complex and expensive. Just ask anyone who has tried to tour Canada.
I wasn't aware that tax was taken out preemptively by venues - that is crazypants! I imagine trying to get that back is quite the nightmare if you don't have a dedicated set of accountants handling it.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:11 AM on November 30, 2015
I wasn't aware that tax was taken out preemptively by venues - that is crazypants! I imagine trying to get that back is quite the nightmare if you don't have a dedicated set of accountants handling it.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:11 AM on November 30, 2015
> I don't see how that addresses my issue with this complaint being special pleading towards bringing more British bands in particular to the US, which will in fact negatively effect US artists by taking slots from them.
Touring is the only way most musicians can earn a living income. They can't live off fannish enthusiasm and music downloads (even the legal ones). Blocking access to their fans can be a severe impediment to their careers and revenue.
This isn't an either/or issue, because it's possible for any individual to both support the local scene and other scenes. It's really weird to believe that one must decide to put all their concert-going money exclusively into the pockets of either citizens or foreigners but not a mix of both.
posted by ardgedee at 8:14 AM on November 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
Touring is the only way most musicians can earn a living income. They can't live off fannish enthusiasm and music downloads (even the legal ones). Blocking access to their fans can be a severe impediment to their careers and revenue.
This isn't an either/or issue, because it's possible for any individual to both support the local scene and other scenes. It's really weird to believe that one must decide to put all their concert-going money exclusively into the pockets of either citizens or foreigners but not a mix of both.
posted by ardgedee at 8:14 AM on November 30, 2015 [4 favorites]
where nobody in our own culture gives a flying fuck about funding the arts
America's reluctance to provide public funding for the arts (because that's what you're talking about when you say "government grants" - that's your tax dollars (or pounds or Euros or etc etc) at work) is a complex and systemic problem and isn't really all that relevant. Not least because that reluctance definitely affects US artists.
A performer working in a different country is (or should be) a relatively straightforward minor commercial transaction - suggesting that we punish non-US performers by making it difficult-to-impossible for them to appear here due to our lack of public funding for the arts isn't even cutting off your nose to spite your face; it's cutting off your nose to spite your left elbow. You're conflating two different issues.
And as Dysk points out above, reciprocity doesn't seem like a mind-bogglingly complex idea - if the UK or other countries are willing to allow US musicians over with minimal hassle and expense, why should it be so difficult the other way 'round? Arguing that foreign bands are taking performing slots away from US bands is assuming facts not in evidence, and that can't be in evidence, because how would you prove or even study this? Plenty of venues and promoters simply won't have a show if they don't have an act for that night that makes it worth their time and effort - on a purely practical level, whether that band is from the US or not makes little difference. It's false equivalence to propose that a night's worth of entertainment could be provided by a US performer just the same as a UK performer, because they're not the same act. You're basically going, "Eh, Picasso, Rembrandt, Haring, what's the diff???" - which is ridiculous.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:46 AM on November 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
America's reluctance to provide public funding for the arts (because that's what you're talking about when you say "government grants" - that's your tax dollars (or pounds or Euros or etc etc) at work) is a complex and systemic problem and isn't really all that relevant. Not least because that reluctance definitely affects US artists.
A performer working in a different country is (or should be) a relatively straightforward minor commercial transaction - suggesting that we punish non-US performers by making it difficult-to-impossible for them to appear here due to our lack of public funding for the arts isn't even cutting off your nose to spite your face; it's cutting off your nose to spite your left elbow. You're conflating two different issues.
And as Dysk points out above, reciprocity doesn't seem like a mind-bogglingly complex idea - if the UK or other countries are willing to allow US musicians over with minimal hassle and expense, why should it be so difficult the other way 'round? Arguing that foreign bands are taking performing slots away from US bands is assuming facts not in evidence, and that can't be in evidence, because how would you prove or even study this? Plenty of venues and promoters simply won't have a show if they don't have an act for that night that makes it worth their time and effort - on a purely practical level, whether that band is from the US or not makes little difference. It's false equivalence to propose that a night's worth of entertainment could be provided by a US performer just the same as a UK performer, because they're not the same act. You're basically going, "Eh, Picasso, Rembrandt, Haring, what's the diff???" - which is ridiculous.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:46 AM on November 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
I wasn't aware that tax was taken out preemptively by venues - that is crazypants! I imagine trying to get that back is quite the nightmare if you don't have a dedicated set of accountants handling it.
I don't do the accounting stuff, but I've chatted about this with various promoters & venues & agents & bands, and mostly they're kinda shruggo about it. Like, it's a hassle, sure, but running a band as a business, or a venue, or a promotions company is already way complicated in terms of taxes and income and licenses and etc etc, so adding this one more thing is what you pay accountants and bookkeepers for - and if you're running a band as an actual money-making business or a bar that has bands and you don't already have an accountant, you're a fool.
I think like a lot of things it seems insanely complicated from the outside, but if you're dealing with it on a regular basis you come up with systems and procedures and it becomes just another facet of doing your job. Although of course part of the point of the posted articles is that if you're trying to get bands into the US it's near-imposssible to treat it as a regular part of the job because of all the fuckery.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:13 AM on November 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't do the accounting stuff, but I've chatted about this with various promoters & venues & agents & bands, and mostly they're kinda shruggo about it. Like, it's a hassle, sure, but running a band as a business, or a venue, or a promotions company is already way complicated in terms of taxes and income and licenses and etc etc, so adding this one more thing is what you pay accountants and bookkeepers for - and if you're running a band as an actual money-making business or a bar that has bands and you don't already have an accountant, you're a fool.
I think like a lot of things it seems insanely complicated from the outside, but if you're dealing with it on a regular basis you come up with systems and procedures and it becomes just another facet of doing your job. Although of course part of the point of the posted articles is that if you're trying to get bands into the US it's near-imposssible to treat it as a regular part of the job because of all the fuckery.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:13 AM on November 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
I wonder how many UK bands are "taking" timeslots from local bands vs. being headliners for shows with 2-4 local bands opening, who are now exposed to new fans that came to see the UK band? Most folks I know in bands are happy to play with/open for travelling bands no matter where they are from, because the shows with the same 4 bands playing every month aren't the ones bringing in new fans or larger audiences (= more $ if you get a cut of the door).
posted by misskaz at 9:59 AM on November 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by misskaz at 9:59 AM on November 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm clearly explaining myself poorly here, maybe I could try reiterating my main points in a less bitter way.
A. There is no reciprocity -- it is actually practically more difficult for US bands to tour outside the U.S. because of the lack of arts funding (and in our social systems in general). That's not the UKs problem I know but does make me less sympathetic and willing to physically help any effort to change our laws, particularly since there are government-funded organizations that help musicians fund US shows.
B. the fact that is presented as a UK-Specific problem bothers me, but that's more just my own knee jerk anti rock-nostalgia thing than anything to do with changing the U.S. laws. If this article led with stories of people from developing countries trying to deal with the same labyrinth of bureaucracy I'd have been less grumpy since obviously it's going to be worse for them in this shitshow!
The main thing is: the market just isn't here in the U.S. for touring rock bands any more. The middle class of clubs have mostly folded and the small venues left can't fill a room with Anglophiles. So in the end, bands can't play here because for the most part they don't have a draw a lot more often than when there is a draw & the costs keep them out.
Thanks for responses! Hope I'm not being a huge jerk about this but possibly I am.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:27 AM on November 30, 2015
A. There is no reciprocity -- it is actually practically more difficult for US bands to tour outside the U.S. because of the lack of arts funding (and in our social systems in general). That's not the UKs problem I know but does make me less sympathetic and willing to physically help any effort to change our laws, particularly since there are government-funded organizations that help musicians fund US shows.
B. the fact that is presented as a UK-Specific problem bothers me, but that's more just my own knee jerk anti rock-nostalgia thing than anything to do with changing the U.S. laws. If this article led with stories of people from developing countries trying to deal with the same labyrinth of bureaucracy I'd have been less grumpy since obviously it's going to be worse for them in this shitshow!
The main thing is: the market just isn't here in the U.S. for touring rock bands any more. The middle class of clubs have mostly folded and the small venues left can't fill a room with Anglophiles. So in the end, bands can't play here because for the most part they don't have a draw a lot more often than when there is a draw & the costs keep them out.
Thanks for responses! Hope I'm not being a huge jerk about this but possibly I am.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:27 AM on November 30, 2015
I can't believe you all are worried about this when there are cats that need adopting!
/hamburger
More seriously, having bands from out of town/country is a big part of what helps clubs get a reputation as a great place to go see music. If it's all local bands just starting out or the Grateful Dead String Cheese Experience or whatever, then the perception is that it's not worth even checking the schedule. As someone in the US who used to play in bands, getting an opening slot for a British/New York/whatever band coming through was a great way to get more exposure and more importantly reinforce the idea that music is a global thing that unites us. Bands below the premium stadium/$100 ticket level make so little money that the idea of paying taxes on the earnings is ridiculous. I did so many shows where I drove to f***ing Colorado or something to make $200 minus gas minus food minus a place to stay then split six ways ... anyone crazy enough to do that for a career should just be in the "so little money we don't care about it" zone.
posted by freecellwizard at 11:00 AM on November 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
/hamburger
More seriously, having bands from out of town/country is a big part of what helps clubs get a reputation as a great place to go see music. If it's all local bands just starting out or the Grateful Dead String Cheese Experience or whatever, then the perception is that it's not worth even checking the schedule. As someone in the US who used to play in bands, getting an opening slot for a British/New York/whatever band coming through was a great way to get more exposure and more importantly reinforce the idea that music is a global thing that unites us. Bands below the premium stadium/$100 ticket level make so little money that the idea of paying taxes on the earnings is ridiculous. I did so many shows where I drove to f***ing Colorado or something to make $200 minus gas minus food minus a place to stay then split six ways ... anyone crazy enough to do that for a career should just be in the "so little money we don't care about it" zone.
posted by freecellwizard at 11:00 AM on November 30, 2015 [2 favorites]
Re: RyanShepard's earlier comment, under the table gigs do exist, but it's hard to do covert publicity, so those gigs are never very large. As soon as you get the word out there (and documented!), you're potentially in trouble.
As someone who has organized music for (small folky) events, we can work with musicians who come over on tourist visas, but we can't use their name in any of our advertizing. So our event flyer says [LocalMusicianYouRecognize] - With Special Guest Fiddler! Not, of course, naming the special guest fiddler. We can attract our own audience, but if we want to actually attract their audience for these shows, we would need to use the name. And if there is publicity that says this guy is playing paying gigs then his tourist visa could get called into question, and he could be (a) fined, and (b) banned from returning to the US. So, most musicians are reluctant to have their names out there. And if the venue can't advertize the event, they won't make any money. It just falls apart all around.
Yes, I can imagine a scenario where there's a well-informed international music-news network that manages to convey tour dates without any incriminating documentation, but that relies on having a particular type of very well-informed rabid fans, and excludes people who might recognize your name from that one track you put up as a YouTube video and are looking for something to do on a Thursday night. Complicated!
posted by aimedwander at 12:41 PM on November 30, 2015
As someone who has organized music for (small folky) events, we can work with musicians who come over on tourist visas, but we can't use their name in any of our advertizing. So our event flyer says [LocalMusicianYouRecognize] - With Special Guest Fiddler! Not, of course, naming the special guest fiddler. We can attract our own audience, but if we want to actually attract their audience for these shows, we would need to use the name. And if there is publicity that says this guy is playing paying gigs then his tourist visa could get called into question, and he could be (a) fined, and (b) banned from returning to the US. So, most musicians are reluctant to have their names out there. And if the venue can't advertize the event, they won't make any money. It just falls apart all around.
Yes, I can imagine a scenario where there's a well-informed international music-news network that manages to convey tour dates without any incriminating documentation, but that relies on having a particular type of very well-informed rabid fans, and excludes people who might recognize your name from that one track you put up as a YouTube video and are looking for something to do on a Thursday night. Complicated!
posted by aimedwander at 12:41 PM on November 30, 2015
The veteran guitarist Adrian Legg has been covering this extensively in updates to his Facebook page over the last couple of years, talking about how it's not only become more expensive, but also bureaucratic and complicated (in fact he comments on this article). As far as I can tell, his career revolves around touring the States since it's not financially viable for him in particular to tour the UK and/or Europe in quite the same way. It looks like it's not viable to tour the U.S. either now, and I get the impression that he's not sure what he's going to do. Which is a shame, as he's a terrific and unique performer. He's in the U.S. on tour right now, I think. It remains to be seen what happens in the future - I know that new regulations have meant that he had to cancel some dates.
posted by Grangousier at 2:43 PM on November 30, 2015
posted by Grangousier at 2:43 PM on November 30, 2015
Also, not just a pop band problem. It's even worse for classical musicians because we have to take Very Expen$$$ive and/or rare or museum piece instruments to play on. On entry to many countries, particularly what used to be the UK, we have to not only swear to bring the same instrument back out on pain of both fines and extraditable imprisonment, but also by paying the import taxes for the instrument's insured value. This can be many thousands of dollars/pounds on top of all the usual tour expenses, including shipping for unique, large and fragile instruments. Upon leaving the UK (and some other jurisdictions) with the same instrument and all its supporting documentation, we're supposed to get the import tax refunded.... Within a year. And then, we repeat the entire import process back in the US. Minus the money we're waiting to be refunded.
And classical venues generally don't support themselves through liquor sales (if only!). Although we might get a cracker and some bad wine or grape juice if we do religious music in a church. I'm Jewish, so I don't even get those.
It is true classical and culturally traditional performances are more likely to have private and public sponsors. If we didn't, most Western classical music would die out as an occupation after graduating conservatory. Certain rapid extinction for symphonies, ballet/large ensemble modern dance and full-scale opera that are slowly dying anyway by attrition. It takes 4-8 support staff or retailers for each musician, so the local job and tax losses are considerable.
For me personally, there is an advantage in that even large ensembles generally can't travel with my double bass-sized instrument. They rent mine, and part of my rental is concert tix and a master class from the renter.
posted by Dreidl at 3:07 PM on November 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
And classical venues generally don't support themselves through liquor sales (if only!). Although we might get a cracker and some bad wine or grape juice if we do religious music in a church. I'm Jewish, so I don't even get those.
It is true classical and culturally traditional performances are more likely to have private and public sponsors. If we didn't, most Western classical music would die out as an occupation after graduating conservatory. Certain rapid extinction for symphonies, ballet/large ensemble modern dance and full-scale opera that are slowly dying anyway by attrition. It takes 4-8 support staff or retailers for each musician, so the local job and tax losses are considerable.
For me personally, there is an advantage in that even large ensembles generally can't travel with my double bass-sized instrument. They rent mine, and part of my rental is concert tix and a master class from the renter.
posted by Dreidl at 3:07 PM on November 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
it is actually practically more difficult for US bands to tour outside the U.S. because of the lack of arts funding (and in our social systems in general).
What are you basing this statement on?
Because this simply does not agree with my knowledge of and experience in the live music business. The number of musicians I know or have met who are pretty much no-one in particular here in the US who've gone to the UK and/or mainland Europe - many of them more than once - FAR exceeds the number of European bands I've worked with here in America. Especially acts from other than the UK.
In fact, as far as I can tell, the public arts funding in Europe more generally seems to have a beneficial affect on US groups' ability to tour over there. Venues can get grants or low-interest government loans for facility maintenance and repair and improvements, which frees up money so they can pay US bands better than they get paid in the US (which means US bands can get paid enough to afford the travel expenses.) "Arts" venues who receive public funding are able and willing to book rock bands (in the US these sorts of publicly funded venues are far more "high-brow" and would not touch a rock band with a ten foot pole.) Music festivals can get all sorts of financial and practical assistance at a level that would simply be unthinkable here in the US - again, more money available to pay to bring American acts overseas. And on top of that there tends to be a definite cachet to being an actual rock band from actual America, so many bands can command higher prices in Europe as compared to the US.
the market just isn't here in the U.S. for touring rock bands any more
Simply untrue. Anecdata, but I leave at 9 am tomorrow. For a week on the road. Getting paid as a soundguy for a rock band touring small-to-medium clubs. Also, you can look at Pollstar's 2014 Year-End ticket sales Top 200 Club Analysis (pdf link). The top ten have ONE non-US club. The top 25 have FOUR non-US clubs. The top 50 have FIVE non-US clubs.
If that's a bad market for touring then god forbid we develop a good market for touring - we'll have to force people to learn guitar at gunpoint just so there's enough musicians to go around.
I'm clearly explaining myself poorly here
No, you're explaining yourself clearly, I just think you don't really have a clear understanding of the economic practicalities of the music business, and you are generalizing your own less-than-optimal experiences out to the larger world in a way that doesn't jibe with the actual reality on the ground.
posted by soundguy99 at 3:14 PM on November 30, 2015 [8 favorites]
What are you basing this statement on?
Because this simply does not agree with my knowledge of and experience in the live music business. The number of musicians I know or have met who are pretty much no-one in particular here in the US who've gone to the UK and/or mainland Europe - many of them more than once - FAR exceeds the number of European bands I've worked with here in America. Especially acts from other than the UK.
In fact, as far as I can tell, the public arts funding in Europe more generally seems to have a beneficial affect on US groups' ability to tour over there. Venues can get grants or low-interest government loans for facility maintenance and repair and improvements, which frees up money so they can pay US bands better than they get paid in the US (which means US bands can get paid enough to afford the travel expenses.) "Arts" venues who receive public funding are able and willing to book rock bands (in the US these sorts of publicly funded venues are far more "high-brow" and would not touch a rock band with a ten foot pole.) Music festivals can get all sorts of financial and practical assistance at a level that would simply be unthinkable here in the US - again, more money available to pay to bring American acts overseas. And on top of that there tends to be a definite cachet to being an actual rock band from actual America, so many bands can command higher prices in Europe as compared to the US.
the market just isn't here in the U.S. for touring rock bands any more
Simply untrue. Anecdata, but I leave at 9 am tomorrow. For a week on the road. Getting paid as a soundguy for a rock band touring small-to-medium clubs. Also, you can look at Pollstar's 2014 Year-End ticket sales Top 200 Club Analysis (pdf link). The top ten have ONE non-US club. The top 25 have FOUR non-US clubs. The top 50 have FIVE non-US clubs.
If that's a bad market for touring then god forbid we develop a good market for touring - we'll have to force people to learn guitar at gunpoint just so there's enough musicians to go around.
I'm clearly explaining myself poorly here
No, you're explaining yourself clearly, I just think you don't really have a clear understanding of the economic practicalities of the music business, and you are generalizing your own less-than-optimal experiences out to the larger world in a way that doesn't jibe with the actual reality on the ground.
posted by soundguy99 at 3:14 PM on November 30, 2015 [8 favorites]
Several of my friends have played UK/european dates before and it didn't seem like much of a hassle at all. They did some paperwork, got plane tickets, and just went. It didn't cost much of anything. I've talked to them at length about this because i almost went one of the times and was figuring out how much cash i'd have to save up.
These guys did it self supported to play 2nd or 3rd slots at big shows. They didn't have a lot of money, one of them delivered papers. I know they didn't lie a bunch or anything.
Why is US immigration stuff so insanely fucked up?
posted by emptythought at 3:58 PM on November 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
These guys did it self supported to play 2nd or 3rd slots at big shows. They didn't have a lot of money, one of them delivered papers. I know they didn't lie a bunch or anything.
Why is US immigration stuff so insanely fucked up?
posted by emptythought at 3:58 PM on November 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
Why is US immigration stuff so insanely fucked up?
ISIS could be mingling with and entering the USA undetected as musicians.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 4:25 PM on November 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
ISIS could be mingling with and entering the USA undetected as musicians.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 4:25 PM on November 30, 2015 [5 favorites]
ISIS could be mingling with and entering the USA undetected as musicians.
Given that for a short time they wanted to automatically send incoming international students to secondary questioning because a friend of the Boston Bombers was an international student dropout, I won't be surprised if this becomes a new excuse.
posted by divabat at 5:29 PM on November 30, 2015
Given that for a short time they wanted to automatically send incoming international students to secondary questioning because a friend of the Boston Bombers was an international student dropout, I won't be surprised if this becomes a new excuse.
posted by divabat at 5:29 PM on November 30, 2015
what used to be the UK
Is there some big news I've missed?
posted by pompomtom at 9:15 PM on November 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Is there some big news I've missed?
posted by pompomtom at 9:15 PM on November 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Why is US immigration stuff so insanely fucked up?
9/11 among other things. Random visa delivery makes concert and trip planning more of a gamble.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:25 AM on December 1, 2015
9/11 among other things. Random visa delivery makes concert and trip planning more of a gamble.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:25 AM on December 1, 2015
Cry me a river. In europe you can play 5 countries in five nights. It takes five nights to drive through New Mexico.
I've toured this last band about 8 times and we still can't afford to make it to the east coast.
posted by lumpenprole at 12:40 PM on December 1, 2015
I've toured this last band about 8 times and we still can't afford to make it to the east coast.
posted by lumpenprole at 12:40 PM on December 1, 2015
Cry me a river. In europe you can play 5 countries in five nights. It takes five nights to drive through New Mexico.
This isn't meaningful at all. Western Europe and the US have roughly comparable populations. The fact that one landmass is divided into countries, the other into states, it doesn't really matter. There isn't a single city in any of the Scandinavian countries that would be considered major by US standards for example. So yes, you could play Sweden one night, Norway the next, and then Denmark, but you could also play three towns the size of Stockholm, Oslo and Copenhagen without having to leave New Mexico.
Tellingly, the link above with the busiest clubs in the world? Almost all of them in the states. It's a bigger market for live music even if it had fewer borders drawn across it.
posted by Dysk at 1:29 AM on December 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
This isn't meaningful at all. Western Europe and the US have roughly comparable populations. The fact that one landmass is divided into countries, the other into states, it doesn't really matter. There isn't a single city in any of the Scandinavian countries that would be considered major by US standards for example. So yes, you could play Sweden one night, Norway the next, and then Denmark, but you could also play three towns the size of Stockholm, Oslo and Copenhagen without having to leave New Mexico.
Tellingly, the link above with the busiest clubs in the world? Almost all of them in the states. It's a bigger market for live music even if it had fewer borders drawn across it.
posted by Dysk at 1:29 AM on December 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
The fact that one landmass is divided into countries, the other into states, it doesn't really matter.
It's clear to me that you've never driven across the US. It's very, very, different. The distance between population centers is much, much larger.
Tellingly, the link above with the busiest clubs in the world? Almost all of them in the states
Yep. And none of those would book a band that had a hard time coming up with 7 grand. I certainly agree that Visa restrictions for artists in this country are insane which is the point of the article, but it would easily cost us 7 grand to get to the east coast from the west. The only way you can make that work is if you are insanely huge in Chigaco, or SXSW desides to throw sponsor money at you.
It's a rough go for all musicians out there, is what I'm saying.
posted by lumpenprole at 10:54 AM on December 2, 2015
It's clear to me that you've never driven across the US. It's very, very, different. The distance between population centers is much, much larger.
Tellingly, the link above with the busiest clubs in the world? Almost all of them in the states
Yep. And none of those would book a band that had a hard time coming up with 7 grand. I certainly agree that Visa restrictions for artists in this country are insane which is the point of the article, but it would easily cost us 7 grand to get to the east coast from the west. The only way you can make that work is if you are insanely huge in Chigaco, or SXSW desides to throw sponsor money at you.
It's a rough go for all musicians out there, is what I'm saying.
posted by lumpenprole at 10:54 AM on December 2, 2015
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I think they should just tour Aus again instead, but maybe that's just me.
posted by pompomtom at 6:37 PM on November 29, 2015 [2 favorites]