You crazy guy
December 9, 2015 7:24 AM   Subscribe

This post was deleted for the following reason: Poster's Request -- frimble



 
Obligatory

Yes, I know orangutans are apes.
posted by Gelatin at 7:29 AM on December 9, 2015 [2 favorites]


I sort of got the impression that the ape was humoring him.
posted by WCWedin at 7:32 AM on December 9, 2015 [27 favorites]


...though whoever titled that video apparently does not.
posted by Gelatin at 7:32 AM on December 9, 2015 [2 favorites]


Yeah, the Librarian would like to have an ook with the uploader.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:37 AM on December 9, 2015 [22 favorites]


That ape was totally doing the, "Isn't that cute? He's trying to do magic! I'll look stunned!" thing.
posted by xingcat at 7:44 AM on December 9, 2015 [7 favorites]


I hope my second tag explains my thoughts on the issue.

a nape?
posted by hippybear at 7:52 AM on December 9, 2015


Wow, orangutan sarcasm.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 7:59 AM on December 9, 2015 [5 favorites]


Dr. Zaius: To suggest that we can learn anything about the simian nature from a study of man is sheer nonsense. Why, man is a nuisance. He eats up his food supply in the forest, then migrates to our green belts and ravages our crops. The sooner he is exterminated, the better. It's a question of simian survival.
!
posted by Fizz at 8:00 AM on December 9, 2015 [7 favorites]


a nape?

I don't think orangutans have napes...
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:13 AM on December 9, 2015


illusions, Michael.
posted by stobor at 8:20 AM on December 9, 2015 [14 favorites]


A trick is something an ape does for bananas.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:21 AM on December 9, 2015 [20 favorites]


I haven't done this for a while, but when I would go to the zoo to sketch, the Emperor tamarins used to absolutely LOVE it. One would start getting curious, then another, then the most adventurous would come up close to the window to watch, and sometimes they would all come hang out, each trying to get the best view of what the big weird ape on the other side was up to.
posted by louche mustachio at 8:24 AM on December 9, 2015 [12 favorites]


Too smart to be in a cage.
posted by aught at 8:26 AM on December 9, 2015 [18 favorites]


My former-neurophysiologist dad recently went in for a purely precautionary Alzheimer's screening. For one of the tests the doc gives him a piece of paper with a square printed on it and tells him, "Write any sentence in this box except, 'Dr. Williams is stupid.'" So my dad writes, "Dr. Williams is definitely not stupid." The doc laughs and tell him, rightly, "Humor! There's all the evidence we need that all of your higher functions are in perfect working order."
posted by cmoj at 8:30 AM on December 9, 2015 [12 favorites]


Too smart to be in a cage watching videos of monkeys on the internet
posted by Wolfdog at 9:03 AM on December 9, 2015 [8 favorites]


That's how I react to my kids' knock-knock jokes.
posted by gottabefunky at 9:30 AM on December 9, 2015 [4 favorites]


Oh boy! Another excuse to share my favorite Emperor Tamarin video!
posted by ChuraChura at 9:39 AM on December 9, 2015 [12 favorites]


Ok, serious moment here. It's not clear the orangutan is reacting to the trick in such a way that's it clear that they "got" it. I used to do magic and would try out my tricks (sorry, illusions) on my cats who not only were interested in the wrong things about the tricks but never seemed to get what made them cool.

Young children (infants) also are not able to "get" a lot of tricks. In fact it's a kind of Piaget-like test for cognitive development. So if this orangutan can actually "get" magic tricks then that's an important indication of cognitive development. There's actually a whole lot going on in our minds when we watch a trick performed that indicates some pretty sophisticated thinking (and a lot of assumptions).

I'm sure studies have been done on this subject but if not there's probably a paper or two in it form some enterprising MeFites looking to make names for themselves.
posted by bfootdav at 9:43 AM on December 9, 2015 [3 favorites]


Ok, serious moment here. It's not clear the orangutan is reacting to the trick in such a way that's it clear that they "got" it.

I was actually curious about that myself. For the orangutan to "get" the trick, they would have to grasp the concept that you couldn't remove something from a closed container without re-opening it.

But if they orangutan gets that, and reacts to the violation of that expectation by laughing, it suggests that the animal also "gets" that what they've seen is a trick, rather than an actual suspension of the laws of physics.

Does anyone have a good handle on what the orangutan is actually reacting too, and whether what humans read as a sign of amusement has a similar meaning when performed by an ape?

Fascinating, thanks for posting.
posted by layceepee at 9:53 AM on December 9, 2015 [1 favorite]


It's really hard to get at exactly what is understood, and what assumptions are being made, with nonhumans. Fortunately, there's a lot of research on Theory of Mind in primates, and some specifically with orangutans! This is a pretty good review (open access) of research on the topic in primates. There's some evidence for self-recognition, at least, in orangutans (let me know if you would like a copy of this article). The Max Planck Institute's Department of Developmental and Comparative Psychology is doing a lot of the groundbreaking research in this area and have a very informative website with links to some of their research. The Lincoln Park Zoo, in Chicago, is doing a lot of really interesting research on ape cognition in captivity and the wild. Emory and Zoo Atlanta are also doing some collaborative work on orangutan cognition.
posted by ChuraChura at 9:54 AM on December 9, 2015 [27 favorites]


I also really like this article from the New Yorker on orangutans. They are in a truly dire conservation situation right now, and can use all the appreciation and attention that people who are at all interested can give!
posted by ChuraChura at 9:57 AM on December 9, 2015 [5 favorites]


I don't care whether the orangutan gets it, is humoring the trickster, or has a nape. It is utterly charming. Those eyes, those eyes!
posted by Dolley at 10:00 AM on December 9, 2015


Thanks for the links ChuraChura. I was aware that work was being done with orangutans (and other primates) with regard to cognition, self-awareness, etc, but I was more speaking to specifically magic tricks as a litmus test. There's a lot going on when a person gets a trick. Like when I put a silk scarf into my hand where it then disappears is more than just rolling a ball behind a screen and then being surprised when it doesn't come out the other end. Making the scarf disappears only works as a trick when the subject realizes that what they just saw is impossible and while studying the hands of the magician cannot see any way in which trickery was used (unlike with the screen where the source of the mystery is clear).

And not saying that things like this aren't being done -- there's a lot to read through in those links before I can come to that conclusion!

Mainly I just want to do magic tricks for cats and they get it and think I'm really cool. (Apparently my cats never thought I was cool.)
posted by bfootdav at 10:03 AM on December 9, 2015


Although most primates appear incapable of learning that their behavior is the source of the behavior depicted in a mirror, the present study replicates previous reports showing that both chimpanzees and orangutans are capable of self-recognition... gorillas appeared unable to correctly decipher mirrored information about themselves.

Some enterprising magician should go to a zoo and perform the same simple magic trick for each species of ape in order to gauge their respective reactions. Hell, why stop with primates? As long as you're there, try it out on all sorts of different animals. You can call yourself The Great Zoodini.
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:05 AM on December 9, 2015 [3 favorites]


Yeah, I think the problem with jumping RIGHT TO "do they understand magic tricks?" as a cognitive test is that a trick is exactly what makes it interesting - it such a complex thing to for her to respond to and then be surprised by, so interpreting her reaction is very challenging without establishing the capacity to do all the little bits in between. Like, is she surprised because she was expecting the thing to still be in the cup? Does she have a concept of object permanence? Is she surprised because the man and woman are making surprised faces? Does she realize that the man knows something she doesn't know? We have to establish each of those things independently before we can turn to something as complex as a magic trick.
posted by ChuraChura at 10:19 AM on December 9, 2015 [3 favorites]


When my daughter was about 4 or 6 months old, I took her to the zoo (I think the same zoo as seen in this video, actually), where a baby gorilla had just been born. When we were in the gorilla exhibit, my baby made it clear that she was hungry, so I sat down on the rocks next to the glass wall of the enclosure and nursed her. One of the gorillas looked over and saw me, came over and hunkered right down next to me and WATCHED me, and then went and got some of the other lady gorillas and dragged them over and showed them. so I had like three or four gorillas watching me nurse my baby. It was a really nice primate bonding moment.
posted by KathrynT at 10:29 AM on December 9, 2015 [47 favorites]


There's some interesting stuff done with Magic Tricks on Dogs, often around making a treat disappear.
posted by Mogur at 10:34 AM on December 9, 2015 [2 favorites]


I think the question of whether or not the orangutan "gets it" or not is further complicated by the "laughing" face being a learned behavior used primarily for interacting with humans.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 10:37 AM on December 9, 2015 [2 favorites]


layceepee: "But if they orangutan gets that, and reacts to the violation of that expectation by laughing, it suggests that the animal also "gets" that what they've seen is a trick, rather than an actual suspension of the laws of physics."

It may be amusing to the orangutan because it's just surprising; human babies will laugh hysterically at tricks they don't "get" but which nonetheless have outcomes that run contrary to their expectations. He expected the fruit/seed thingie to be in the cup ... it wasn't ... that in itself is surprising enough to be interesting and/or funny, whether or not he "gets" that it was meant to be a trick. Human babies will try to encourage their adults, often by laughing or cooing, to repeat the surprising behavior so they can study it and try to figure out what happened. But it's a pretty short trip from "surprised" to "laughing with delight" for babies ... theirs brains like novel stimuli, so the two are pretty close together.

(And yeah, we do know that great apes can learn to breastfeed by watching humans and zoos have, in the past, recruited nursing humans to bring their babies and nurse near the apes so a first-time mom ape can watch lots and lots of it and learn how it goes, when other nursing apes are not there for her to learn from.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:58 AM on December 9, 2015 [4 favorites]


That's classic. Animal having fun.
posted by Michael Jansen at 3:50 PM on December 9, 2015


It may be amusing to the orangutan because it's just surprising;

Hell, that's what I find to be most amusing.
posted by carping demon at 12:15 AM on December 10, 2015


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