Precision beats power, and timing beats speed
December 13, 2015 3:22 PM Subscribe
Conor "The Notorious" McGregor took just 13 seconds to knock out José Aldo and thereby become the UFC featherweight champion.
The hype seems to have been made real. McGregor's "left-hand shot" defeated Aldo for the first time in 10 years, and made for the fastest title match in UFC history. (The previous record was held by former UFC women's bantamweight champion Ronda Rousey, with her 14-second armbar win over Cat Zingano.) This is McGregor's fifteenth straight win, and his fifth straight win by knockout or technical knockout.
From the post-fight interview:
The hype seems to have been made real. McGregor's "left-hand shot" defeated Aldo for the first time in 10 years, and made for the fastest title match in UFC history. (The previous record was held by former UFC women's bantamweight champion Ronda Rousey, with her 14-second armbar win over Cat Zingano.) This is McGregor's fifteenth straight win, and his fifth straight win by knockout or technical knockout.
From the post-fight interview:
[José is] powerful and he's fast, but precision beats power, and timing beats speed.From Conor's post-win Instagram post:
To the naked eye it was 13 seconds, but to my team and my family it has been a lifetime of work to get to that 13 seconds.The rest of the card was similarly impressive, with Demian Maia showcasing elite Brazilian jiujitsu and Luke Rockhold pushing through a back-and-forth battle before TKOing Chris Weidman to become champion at 185 pounds.
Hah, yeah. I dunno if I call that "precision," but the chips fall how they fall.
posted by rhizome at 3:34 PM on December 13, 2015
posted by rhizome at 3:34 PM on December 13, 2015
I guess Aldo was so shocked you could knock him over with a feather... weight.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:36 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:36 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
SO MUCH FIGHTING ON METAFILTER TODAY!??!!
posted by Fizz at 3:40 PM on December 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Fizz at 3:40 PM on December 13, 2015 [5 favorites]
I still can't believe that punch knocked him out.
(I don't mean like "It was a fix!" or anything dumb like that. It just doesn't look like a first-round KO punch.)
posted by Etrigan at 3:40 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
(I don't mean like "It was a fix!" or anything dumb like that. It just doesn't look like a first-round KO punch.)
posted by Etrigan at 3:40 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
But how would he fair going up against Major Kira? Hmm? Hmm? Nerd matchup, I'd go to that.
posted by sammyo at 3:42 PM on December 13, 2015
posted by sammyo at 3:42 PM on December 13, 2015
dya like dags?
posted by stilgar at 3:44 PM on December 13, 2015 [19 favorites]
posted by stilgar at 3:44 PM on December 13, 2015 [19 favorites]
Anybody got a link to a slow motion reply for the dumbs like I?
posted by Rhomboid at 3:44 PM on December 13, 2015
posted by Rhomboid at 3:44 PM on December 13, 2015
Slow motion
McGregor threw a fist as Aldo was charging. Aldo dipped his chin into the fist-path and hit the fist with his power-button.
posted by rhizome at 3:48 PM on December 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
McGregor threw a fist as Aldo was charging. Aldo dipped his chin into the fist-path and hit the fist with his power-button.
posted by rhizome at 3:48 PM on December 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
I was pretty shocked! I thought McGregor looked like the weight cut hadn't treated him very well, and I was expecting that to be a problem. I guess, 13 seconds in, fatigue and dehydration from weight cutting doesn't make that much of a difference. I like Aldo's persona a lot more than McGregor's persona, though. It'll be interesting to see if Max Holloway gets the next title shot?
posted by ChuraChura at 3:48 PM on December 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 3:48 PM on December 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
Edgar is next in line after starching Mendes earlier this week, but I'm worried they'll make the rematch. Oh how I hate immediate title rematches.
posted by daveliepmann at 3:50 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by daveliepmann at 3:50 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
McGregor deflects Aldo's right, which leads him wide open for McGregor's left.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:50 PM on December 13, 2015
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:50 PM on December 13, 2015
Mod note: Couple of comments deleted. If you think this is stupid, go ahead and just pass the thread by.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 3:51 PM on December 13, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 3:51 PM on December 13, 2015 [12 favorites]
Most impressive thing? McGregor called it:
"It will be over at the first exchange"
posted by HighLife at 3:52 PM on December 13, 2015
"It will be over at the first exchange"
posted by HighLife at 3:52 PM on December 13, 2015
From the Guardian:
Aldo loaded up his right hand just like McGregor said he would, but then he turned it into a feint and came with the left hook, but McGregor was too fast for him, and McGregor's left hook landed first and knocked him out.
I would say Aldo knew exactly what McGregor had predicted and tried to use that expectation to set McGregor up, but Aldo just wasn't fast enough and McGregor knocked him out anyway.
posted by jamjam at 3:54 PM on December 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
“I said his right hand would get him into trouble,” McGregor said after Saturday’s fight. “I said he would overload on his right hand. I said if he overloads on his right hand I will hit him with my left hook and that’s exactly what happened.”But looking at the slowed-down video several times, that's not how it looked to me.
McGregor had indeed made this vow. He had said for days that Aldo would look to throw a right, that Aldo’s fingers would twitch, signalling a desire to put all his power in a right hand punch and that when he did this, McGregor would slug him with a left hook. He said this would happen early in the fight and that his left hook to Aldo’s head would end the fight. Then it worked, just as he said.
Aldo loaded up his right hand just like McGregor said he would, but then he turned it into a feint and came with the left hook, but McGregor was too fast for him, and McGregor's left hook landed first and knocked him out.
I would say Aldo knew exactly what McGregor had predicted and tried to use that expectation to set McGregor up, but Aldo just wasn't fast enough and McGregor knocked him out anyway.
posted by jamjam at 3:54 PM on December 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
>I dunno if I call that "precision,"
This is a better angle. That's a damn good shot.
posted by anti social order at 3:56 PM on December 13, 2015 [11 favorites]
This is a better angle. That's a damn good shot.
posted by anti social order at 3:56 PM on December 13, 2015 [11 favorites]
People who understand either fighting, human biology, or both: Watching the slowed down gif, you can see that McGregor hits Aldo in the head, and soon after Aldo hits McGregor in the head. 1) Why is it that Aldo was able to punch McGregor? Wasn't he unconscious at this point? 2) Given that he did hit McGregor, and given that he's being described as stronger and faster than McGregor, why didn't this punch knock McGregor out as well? Why was this a single KO and not a double KO?
posted by Bugbread at 3:57 PM on December 13, 2015
posted by Bugbread at 3:57 PM on December 13, 2015
I'm neither a boxer nor a biologist, but I'll take a charging left hook at your queries.
posted by daveliepmann at 4:03 PM on December 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
1) Why is it that Aldo was able to punch McGregor? Wasn't he unconscious at this point?Arm already in motion. Some muscles still firing. System shutdown in 3—
2) Given that he did hit McGregor, and given that he's being described as stronger and faster than McGregor, why didn't this punch knock McGregor out as well? Why was this a single KO and not a double KO?Remember, strength isn't KO power. It certainly helps, but a KO involves a lot of other things. A) Aldo's punch loses pep as he passes out, B) Aldo's punch hits McGregor on the dome, which is less reliably a knockout sweet spot than, say, the chin, C) McGregor saw the punch that was about to hit him, and Aldo didn't—it's the punches you don't see, see? and D) I hate to bring this up, but Aldo may have sustained more fight-years than Conor, particularly considering Aldo's camp is known for "gym wars" and Conor specifically rejects that approach.
posted by daveliepmann at 4:03 PM on December 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
>1) Why is it that Aldo was able to punch McGregor?
Aldo was swinging his left before he got hit. Then he got hit right on the jaw. Hitting the jaw causes the skull to pivot on the spine, your jaw goes left, but your brain goes right since its floating in fluid. If your brain goes right fast enough it hits the inside of the skull and you're knocked out. Or at least stunned and 'punch drunk'.
You can tell Aldo wasn't fully "out" until he got those hammerfists to the head as he starts to put his hands up to defend while on the ground.
>why didn't this punch knock McGregor out as well?
McGregor was hit in the side of the head by the temple. Unpleasant, but not normally an instant KO.
posted by anti social order at 4:10 PM on December 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
Aldo was swinging his left before he got hit. Then he got hit right on the jaw. Hitting the jaw causes the skull to pivot on the spine, your jaw goes left, but your brain goes right since its floating in fluid. If your brain goes right fast enough it hits the inside of the skull and you're knocked out. Or at least stunned and 'punch drunk'.
You can tell Aldo wasn't fully "out" until he got those hammerfists to the head as he starts to put his hands up to defend while on the ground.
>why didn't this punch knock McGregor out as well?
McGregor was hit in the side of the head by the temple. Unpleasant, but not normally an instant KO.
posted by anti social order at 4:10 PM on December 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
Exactly what will knock a person out is pretty finicky really.
posted by atoxyl at 4:20 PM on December 13, 2015
posted by atoxyl at 4:20 PM on December 13, 2015
Can you purchase PPV of these events on a pay-per-second basis? How does a buck a second sound?
posted by fairmettle at 4:30 PM on December 13, 2015
posted by fairmettle at 4:30 PM on December 13, 2015
It looks like Aldo goes down, then McGregor starts whaling on him some more, then the referee runs over like "Stop, stop!" What are the actual rules at that point?
posted by No-sword at 4:33 PM on December 13, 2015
posted by No-sword at 4:33 PM on December 13, 2015
Wait, it's legal in UFC to pound on a downed opponent?
posted by sammyo at 4:35 PM on December 13, 2015
posted by sammyo at 4:35 PM on December 13, 2015
What are the actual rules at that point?In MMA, the fight keeps going until the ref stops it. This was a fast and fair stoppage. The referee did a great job.
It works this way because the fight is allowed to continue on the ground, and because fighters sometimes get knocked down but not out, or they have a "flash" knockout where they immediately recover and win. See Frank Mir's second match with Big Nog, or Cheick Kongo's fight with Pat Barry, or Frankie Edgar's second fight with Gray Maynard.
posted by daveliepmann at 4:38 PM on December 13, 2015 [8 favorites]
Then he got hit right on the jaw. Hitting the jaw causes the skull to pivot on the spine, your jaw goes left, but your brain goes right since its floating in fluid.
As far as I understand it is that your brain goes with your head as it whips from one side to the other with the punch, but when your head stops at the end of the arc the brain keeps going... if it's going fast enough there's not fluid etc around it to stop it and it smacks against the skull. Also torsion force on the spinal column doesn't' do you a lot of good here.
Aldo not totally ko-ed by the punch but stunned enough to be off balance after his punch, not able to recovered and go to the canvas... after that McGregor was straight in with the follow up punches and it was all over. (In boxing he'd have had more of a chance)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 4:38 PM on December 13, 2015
As far as I understand it is that your brain goes with your head as it whips from one side to the other with the punch, but when your head stops at the end of the arc the brain keeps going... if it's going fast enough there's not fluid etc around it to stop it and it smacks against the skull. Also torsion force on the spinal column doesn't' do you a lot of good here.
Aldo not totally ko-ed by the punch but stunned enough to be off balance after his punch, not able to recovered and go to the canvas... after that McGregor was straight in with the follow up punches and it was all over. (In boxing he'd have had more of a chance)
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 4:38 PM on December 13, 2015
I'm more impressed by the hammer-pounding in the face the second he hit the mat.
And by "impressed" I mean agog.
posted by gottabefunky at 4:51 PM on December 13, 2015
And by "impressed" I mean agog.
posted by gottabefunky at 4:51 PM on December 13, 2015
McGregor's post fight press conference was fascinating.
posted by fullerine at 5:04 PM on December 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by fullerine at 5:04 PM on December 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
Okay, cool, you guys rock. One more question:
3) How can y'all/the refs tell that he's knocked out?
He looks a bit stunned, but he immediately lifts his head off the mat after going down. Then after getting punched twice while on the mat he immediately lifts his head and looks straight at the ref and McGregor. I would imagine an unconscious person might exhibit some minimal body movement, but nothing as conscious-like lifting your head and tracking the movement of your opponent. Even if it's true that unconscious people can do that, I don't understand how you could tell the difference between "Unconscious guy looking around at people" and "Conscious guy looking around at people." So how is everyone determining that he was knocked out?
(I'm not doubting y'all. Since everyone seems totally in agreement on that point, I 100% believe y'all are right and I'm wrong, but I'm curious how I'm wrong.)
posted by Bugbread at 5:05 PM on December 13, 2015
3) How can y'all/the refs tell that he's knocked out?
He looks a bit stunned, but he immediately lifts his head off the mat after going down. Then after getting punched twice while on the mat he immediately lifts his head and looks straight at the ref and McGregor. I would imagine an unconscious person might exhibit some minimal body movement, but nothing as conscious-like lifting your head and tracking the movement of your opponent. Even if it's true that unconscious people can do that, I don't understand how you could tell the difference between "Unconscious guy looking around at people" and "Conscious guy looking around at people." So how is everyone determining that he was knocked out?
(I'm not doubting y'all. Since everyone seems totally in agreement on that point, I 100% believe y'all are right and I'm wrong, but I'm curious how I'm wrong.)
posted by Bugbread at 5:05 PM on December 13, 2015
This was a fast and fair stoppage. The referee did a great job.
MMA refereeing is the hardest and most important non-competition job in all of sports. Any other referee, official, umpire, judge, coach, manager, etc. -- if they don't do their jobs well every second, maybe somebody loses. If that ref hadn't jumped right in there, McGregor could have done serious and lasting damage with just a few more blows. A great job by the ref indeed.
How can y'all/the refs tell that he's knocked out?
Practice. Could I tell he was knocked out at the exact second it happened? Not really. I was definitely concerned because he went down so fast from a single punch to the approximate headular region, but Big John McCarthy literally wrote the book on MMA rules. He's been doing this since UFC 2 in 1994.
posted by Etrigan at 5:11 PM on December 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
MMA refereeing is the hardest and most important non-competition job in all of sports. Any other referee, official, umpire, judge, coach, manager, etc. -- if they don't do their jobs well every second, maybe somebody loses. If that ref hadn't jumped right in there, McGregor could have done serious and lasting damage with just a few more blows. A great job by the ref indeed.
How can y'all/the refs tell that he's knocked out?
Practice. Could I tell he was knocked out at the exact second it happened? Not really. I was definitely concerned because he went down so fast from a single punch to the approximate headular region, but Big John McCarthy literally wrote the book on MMA rules. He's been doing this since UFC 2 in 1994.
posted by Etrigan at 5:11 PM on December 13, 2015 [2 favorites]
So how is everyone determining that he was knocked out?
I think the ref is looking for a fighter who isn't able to defend themselves, and will stop the fight when they see that. A body blow can cause debilitating pain that will end a fight in a KO without a loss in consciousness.
posted by peeedro at 5:15 PM on December 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think the ref is looking for a fighter who isn't able to defend themselves, and will stop the fight when they see that. A body blow can cause debilitating pain that will end a fight in a KO without a loss in consciousness.
posted by peeedro at 5:15 PM on December 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
How can y'all/the refs tell that he's knocked out?
The ref has the responsibilty to determine if a fighter is still fighting/able to defend him or herself. This is true in boxing and MMA, but in MMA where you have submission holds and the ground game it is harder and more important. Winning by KO from a strike like this is more rare, I'd say, then winning by tap out to an arm lock or choke hold. MMA sucks in a way, it is brutal and such, but it truly mixes the fighting arts. There is a reason boxing is losing ground to MMA.
posted by vrakatar at 5:15 PM on December 13, 2015
The ref has the responsibilty to determine if a fighter is still fighting/able to defend him or herself. This is true in boxing and MMA, but in MMA where you have submission holds and the ground game it is harder and more important. Winning by KO from a strike like this is more rare, I'd say, then winning by tap out to an arm lock or choke hold. MMA sucks in a way, it is brutal and such, but it truly mixes the fighting arts. There is a reason boxing is losing ground to MMA.
posted by vrakatar at 5:15 PM on December 13, 2015
Unconscious people may exhibit the fencing response, which sometimes manifests as "zombie arms" straight out, or out and bent. Brendan Schaub once looked like he was grasping or hugging a dream when he was knocked out. Compilation video. (Or, if they're Frankie Edgar, they may do a backwards roll, get back up, take a few more punches, return fire while totally blacked out, pick their opponent up and slam him to the ground, and fight on to a draw.)
I apparently disagree with multiple people in this thread, because I think Aldo was totally and completely out from the punch while standing. He fell like a tree! From some angles you can see the ref, John McCarthy, moving in to stop the fight as soon as he sees Aldo fall without moving his legs, without any arm response to the oncoming floor, totally stiff. Aldo moves a bit after hitting the ground, but he's totally out before he hit the mat.
posted by daveliepmann at 5:17 PM on December 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
I apparently disagree with multiple people in this thread, because I think Aldo was totally and completely out from the punch while standing. He fell like a tree! From some angles you can see the ref, John McCarthy, moving in to stop the fight as soon as he sees Aldo fall without moving his legs, without any arm response to the oncoming floor, totally stiff. Aldo moves a bit after hitting the ground, but he's totally out before he hit the mat.
posted by daveliepmann at 5:17 PM on December 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
Then after getting punched twice while on the mat he immediately lifts his head and looks straight at the ref and McGregor.Aldo may well have woken up to some degree at this moment. Doesn't matter for three reasons: one, the fight's already over; two, he would've continued to be battered if the ref wasn't protecting him; three, just because you're able to look at me doesn't mean you're OK. Dude just faceplanted because he went to sleep from a left hand, so he doesn't get any more chances.
posted by daveliepmann at 5:21 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
How can y'all/the refs tell that he's knocked out?
The standard isn't so much "knocked out" as the "Ability to intelligently defend yourself". In this case Aldo taking the two hammer fists directly to the face while laying prone on his back without moving his arms was pretty much enough. There's a lot of stoppages in the sport that may be considered "too soon" and fewer considered "too late". In this case to most who watch and are familiar with MMA would consider this stoppage "just right".
posted by bitdamaged at 5:26 PM on December 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
The standard isn't so much "knocked out" as the "Ability to intelligently defend yourself". In this case Aldo taking the two hammer fists directly to the face while laying prone on his back without moving his arms was pretty much enough. There's a lot of stoppages in the sport that may be considered "too soon" and fewer considered "too late". In this case to most who watch and are familiar with MMA would consider this stoppage "just right".
posted by bitdamaged at 5:26 PM on December 13, 2015 [9 favorites]
Ah, okay, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, while to me he looks conscious, it is also clear that he's not doing anything. I didn't realize that was the definition of "KO" in UFC/other fighting sports, but it absolutely makes sense, and I now I get why there's unanimous opinion that he was KOed (even if individual commenters disagree on precisely when the KO occurred).
posted by Bugbread at 5:31 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Bugbread at 5:31 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
>Wait, it's legal in UFC to pound on a downed opponent?
You fight until the match is ended. It may look bad, but it's far safer than in boxing where they let you recover with an 8 count and then keep going to take more shots to the head.
>In MMA, the fight keeps going until the ref stops it.
The ref can stop the fight and will as soon as the fighter stops "intelligently defending" (curling up into a ball isn't). Also at any time the fighter can tap or quit, and the fighters corner can throw in the towel to stop the fight.
posted by anti social order at 5:56 PM on December 13, 2015
You fight until the match is ended. It may look bad, but it's far safer than in boxing where they let you recover with an 8 count and then keep going to take more shots to the head.
>In MMA, the fight keeps going until the ref stops it.
The ref can stop the fight and will as soon as the fighter stops "intelligently defending" (curling up into a ball isn't). Also at any time the fighter can tap or quit, and the fighters corner can throw in the towel to stop the fight.
posted by anti social order at 5:56 PM on December 13, 2015
Yeesh, that concussion compilation video is horrifying to watch. It does look like Aldo exhibits a fencing response after the hit.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:01 PM on December 13, 2015
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:01 PM on December 13, 2015
Good that the ref's are fast but my impression was not is that legal within the rules of that game but how is that legal anywhere in the united states. Seems more like a back room fight to the death kindof of "sport".
posted by sammyo at 6:03 PM on December 13, 2015
posted by sammyo at 6:03 PM on December 13, 2015
Well, that is a textbook example of leading with your chin.
posted by robcorr at 6:09 PM on December 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by robcorr at 6:09 PM on December 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
I swear I've seen boxers take punches like this and keep standing, so I assume that it's because of the big padded boxing gloves. I have no doubt that McGregor hit Aldo damn hard but it just seems to me that in boxing that wouldn't be a knockout punch. Am I incorrect in this?
posted by Ber at 6:19 PM on December 13, 2015
posted by Ber at 6:19 PM on December 13, 2015
Good that the ref's are fast but my impression was not is that legal within the rules of that game but how is that legal anywhere in the united states. Seems more like a back room fight to the death kindof of "sport".
Consenting adults have agreed to rules that include a referee in the ring who is trained and ready to stop the fight if one of the participants can no longer mount a defense. A huge number of fights are won by a fighter on the ground, often one who caught a still-standing opponent in a combination of holds that leads to a submission.
posted by Etrigan at 6:19 PM on December 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
Consenting adults have agreed to rules that include a referee in the ring who is trained and ready to stop the fight if one of the participants can no longer mount a defense. A huge number of fights are won by a fighter on the ground, often one who caught a still-standing opponent in a combination of holds that leads to a submission.
posted by Etrigan at 6:19 PM on December 13, 2015 [4 favorites]
I swear I've seen boxers take punches like this and keep standing, so I assume that it's because of the big padded boxing gloves.
I've seen boxers take punches like this and keep standing too. But I've also seen boxers take punches like this and get knocked the hell out. If McGregor threw that punch at Aldo ten more times, it could knock him out ten more times, zero more times, or any number in between. Sometimes you just get lucky (or unlucky).
posted by Etrigan at 6:26 PM on December 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
I've seen boxers take punches like this and keep standing too. But I've also seen boxers take punches like this and get knocked the hell out. If McGregor threw that punch at Aldo ten more times, it could knock him out ten more times, zero more times, or any number in between. Sometimes you just get lucky (or unlucky).
posted by Etrigan at 6:26 PM on December 13, 2015 [3 favorites]
4oz gloves.
posted by The Hamms Bear at 6:48 PM on December 13, 2015
posted by The Hamms Bear at 6:48 PM on December 13, 2015
Good that the ref's are fast but my impression was not is that legal within the rules of that game but how is that legal anywhere in the united states. Seems more like a back room fight to the death kindof of "sport".
Head trauma in MMA is an issue but it's way less dangerous in that respect than boxing or football.
posted by nicolas léonard sadi carnot at 7:42 PM on December 13, 2015
Head trauma in MMA is an issue but it's way less dangerous in that respect than boxing or football.
posted by nicolas léonard sadi carnot at 7:42 PM on December 13, 2015
Exactly what will knock a person out is pretty finicky really.
I've never been in a proper fight myself but I spent a summer hanging out at the bars in Seoul and saw a lot of frustrated American soldiers scrapping it out. I most vividly remember a sucker punch where a guy wound up his fist on the opposite sidewalk, ran across the street and threw every bit of his weight into the blow. Momentarily stunned the other guy, that was all. I was shocked that his head was still on.
posted by bonobothegreat at 8:32 PM on December 13, 2015
I've never been in a proper fight myself but I spent a summer hanging out at the bars in Seoul and saw a lot of frustrated American soldiers scrapping it out. I most vividly remember a sucker punch where a guy wound up his fist on the opposite sidewalk, ran across the street and threw every bit of his weight into the blow. Momentarily stunned the other guy, that was all. I was shocked that his head was still on.
posted by bonobothegreat at 8:32 PM on December 13, 2015
OK here's my question: How was that not a hugely stupid gambit on the part of Aldo?
Leaning way forward, he extends his right feint so far as to land weakly on McGregor's shoulder and waits until nearly the full pullback of his initial feint to begin his left hook that he's broadcasting like he's Dick Clark on New Years Eve? I was never a fighter, just someone who got into fights, but that move looks crazy amateurish to me, which makes me think I'm missing something.
posted by cmoj at 9:03 PM on December 13, 2015
Leaning way forward, he extends his right feint so far as to land weakly on McGregor's shoulder and waits until nearly the full pullback of his initial feint to begin his left hook that he's broadcasting like he's Dick Clark on New Years Eve? I was never a fighter, just someone who got into fights, but that move looks crazy amateurish to me, which makes me think I'm missing something.
posted by cmoj at 9:03 PM on December 13, 2015
OK here's my question: How was that not a hugely stupid gambit on the part of Aldo?
To me it looked like he didn't know about/was ignoring McGregor's strong left, which he must have known about, so yeah, stupid gambit. Maybe brought on by over-confidence?
posted by dazed_one at 9:14 PM on December 13, 2015
To me it looked like he didn't know about/was ignoring McGregor's strong left, which he must have known about, so yeah, stupid gambit. Maybe brought on by over-confidence?
posted by dazed_one at 9:14 PM on December 13, 2015
I'm with you, cmoj. Big gambit for Aldo that came up snake eyes. I trust that Jack Slack will go back through the tapes and explain if Aldo ever does this, but I worry that Aldo second-guessed his own ability to beat McGregor fighting like he usually does, and went for the big knockout shot instead.
posted by daveliepmann at 11:16 PM on December 13, 2015
posted by daveliepmann at 11:16 PM on December 13, 2015
I watched it a bunch of times and yeah, the only thing I can come up with is that Aldo assumed they would move to the fence, but McGregor just paused for a sec and let one fly. In slow motion we can all see that Aldo left himself much more open than it appears from the main camera at life speed, and his head does a perfect swoop down and up.. If it was a lucky shot on a failed gambit, then that's what it is, but if McGregor saw Aldo open up just to give him a poke, then that was damn good boxing.
Fighting may be the least forgiving sport on instant replay. Why didn't he try to keep his face away from the other guy's fist? That's like half of the sport, bro!
posted by rhizome at 11:31 PM on December 13, 2015
Fighting may be the least forgiving sport on instant replay. Why didn't he try to keep his face away from the other guy's fist? That's like half of the sport, bro!
posted by rhizome at 11:31 PM on December 13, 2015
This kind of shot is why boxers keep their punches tight and under control. When you throw a straight punch correctly, your shoulders protect your chin and make this less likely.
This was a lazy punch/feint by Aldo. I get that MMA fighters have to worry about more types of attacks than boxers, but that’s no excuse for throwing wild sloppy punches.
posted by HighLife at 11:59 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
This was a lazy punch/feint by Aldo. I get that MMA fighters have to worry about more types of attacks than boxers, but that’s no excuse for throwing wild sloppy punches.
posted by HighLife at 11:59 PM on December 13, 2015 [1 favorite]
Someone could sample this into a song very easily.
posted by pracowity at 12:02 AM on December 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
Here.And make a video that remixes this video over and over. Call it "Life is short." You could mix in some shots of Jesus abandoning him or knocking him out.
We.
Go.
Green trunks for the southpaw,
the notorious Conor McGregor.
Black trunks for the champ-ee-in,
[pause while he checks his card]
Jose Aldo, Junior.
Carter relaxed and smiling...
OOOHHH
[He just?] slept him! [but I like that it sorta sounds like "Jesus left him" or "Jesus slept him"]
Yeah! [?]
posted by pracowity at 12:02 AM on December 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
"Jesus left him" is the finest explanation for just about anything that I think I've ever heard. I will be using it from now on.
Thanks, pracowity!
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 12:10 AM on December 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
Thanks, pracowity!
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 12:10 AM on December 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
Good that the ref's are fast but my impression was not is that legal within the rules of that game but how is that legal anywhere in the united states. Seems more like a back room fight to the death kindof of "sport".This is due to cultural beliefs about a fair fight, and preconceptions about what is dangerous.
Today, in the US, the cultural understanding is that standing up and punching each other is a fair fight. Letting the punchers wrestle is often seen as crass, trickery, or less honorable. We feel that the fight is over when someone is knocked down or admits being bested. That's the broad cultural understanding. It's how we view violence between semi-consenting adult men in bars and ring fights. Stand up and duke it out.
There's a second modality of amateur conflict resolution that allows fighting on the ground but views a large number of techniques as "dirty tricks" and beyond the pale for males fighting honorably. For instance, two high schoolers can fail at punching each other, establish a clinch, and fall to the floor, and the top guy can wail on the bottom guy for quite a while and most people will think it's OK in many scenarios. But if someone goes for an eye or pulls hair, bystanders immediately view that as unacceptable and will often intervene to re-establish the "fair" fight.
There are a lot of non-universal givens in those two modalities. I'm not very knowledgable about other cultural approaches here, but I've picked up tidbits. I'm told that in Japan, there's more of a taboo on face-punching, so drunken barroom violence more often results in a judo-like contest. Trying to hurl someone into the ground is safer in some ways, less preferable in others, but that's the cultural view. In the backcountry United States of the 18th century, what we consider "dirty tricks" were a recognized approach to finish a duel under "rough and tumble" match "rules". In the modern day, we're seeing street fights deal with the renaissance of submission holds via Brazilian jiujitsu: people are more willing to let people continue to fight on the ground, but still liable to intervene and break it up if someone starts getting choked or their arm wrenched. Remember, these are the cultural norms that apply across the spectrum from formal, scheduled, adjudicated contests to impromptu disagreements that boil over into the physical. Is getting your elbow hyperextended more dangerous than getting knocked unconscious? I'd say no, but that's when laypeople intervene. Is taking face punches safer than being picked up and slammed to the ground? Sometimes, I'd say. Most people view chokes scarier and less acceptable than face punches, but I'd say the evidence disagrees.
So, to settle disagreements, some peoples wrestle, some peoples box, some peoples allow both at the same time but don't allow fighting on the ground, some peoples allow both but allow fighting on the ground, and across all of those it's optional whether to allow things like wrenching elbows, wrenching fingers, choking, hair pulling, fish-hooking, strikes to the genitals, and so on.
What should we allow? How should we allow it?
The approach MMA proposes is to allow punching, allow wrestling, allow fighting on the ground, but to ban "dirty" techniques like hair pulling and strikes to the genitals, as well as disfiguring attacks like eye gouging and fish-hooking. That's what is decreed "fair". Is it more fair than pure boxing, or Senegalese wrestling?(1) Is it safer?
Well, fair is arbitrary, but there are some things that make MMA a safer idea than its main competitor for the cultural ideology of acceptable fighting. First, the smaller gloves and allowance of elbows make for more knockouts and blood, but it seems like the trade-off is less concussions. Bigger, padded gloves mean the face and head can sustain much more concussive impact before passing out, getting cut, or breaking a bone. Second, boxing's standing eight-count is basically the most damaging approach to concussions: give the concussed time to "recover" just enough to stand up and be battered into a second concussion. The MMA approach of not giving any time to recover is (perhaps paradoxically, to some) better because a continuous barrage is more likely to stop the fight promptly.
So, look. All elite athletics are unhealthy. Fighting sports in particular are never going to be safe. Wrestling and judo matches, with no strikes allowed and a litany of banned holds and slams, still result in a drumbeat of concussions, elbows crackling broken backwards, knee joints twanging as they snap. Boxing and kickboxing can lead to permanent facial and mental disfigurement. We should continue to make sure that all fighters and prospective fighters know and understand the risks.
I'm not happy to see an unconscious man struck. But two "arm punches" to a downed opponent are, in this grand scheme of our creation, not the problem. They're minimal in long-term effect compared to fights allowed to go on, like Rockhold/Weidman earlier in the night, or Velasquez/Dos Santos 2 and 3. We need refs and cornermen to stop fights earlier when someone is being battered with no response on the feet. We need to stop weight cutting, so that fighters don't enter the ring dangerously dehydrated and don't permanently harm their organs. We need to reduce the number of gyms that encourage "gym wars" that produce regularly concussed fighters. But basically, we're pretty close to as safe as fighting can get, and there are no other good solutions that allow fighters to practice their craft.
- Note: I have no idea how Senegalese wrestling relates to their culture's approach to violent interpersonal disagreements.
Really the best thing I can say in defense of fighting sports in general is that (while I'm sure this doesn't cover everybody) the biggest fans I know of this stuff have at least dabbled themselves.
posted by atoxyl at 3:20 AM on December 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by atoxyl at 3:20 AM on December 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Kudos to daveliepmann for taking such effort to patiently explain basic MMA premises! I haven't seen such ambassadorship for the sport since 2007!
posted by ignignokt at 5:35 AM on December 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by ignignokt at 5:35 AM on December 14, 2015 [5 favorites]
After Rousey got kicked into next week, I think Aldo is very disappointed that he's no longer the champ but happy with a huge consolation bonus check someone slipped under his door for his performance.
This is not to suggest that the fight was fixed; to my untrained eye, it was perfectly legit. But I can also see Dana White being very, very, very happy that he didn't have both of his current marquee stars wiped out on successive shows.
posted by delfin at 6:51 AM on December 14, 2015
This is not to suggest that the fight was fixed; to my untrained eye, it was perfectly legit. But I can also see Dana White being very, very, very happy that he didn't have both of his current marquee stars wiped out on successive shows.
posted by delfin at 6:51 AM on December 14, 2015
I swear I've seen boxers take punches like this and keep standing, so I assume that it's because of the big padded boxing gloves.
Remember that F=MA. If we can assume a slight increase in glove weight doesn't have much affect on arm speed, all gloves do is make the sport more palatable to the viewer and somewhat more dangerous to the fighters. Less blood because of less tearing, but more force in the punches.
Most people view chokes scarier and less acceptable than face punches, but I'd say the evidence disagrees.
Having been on both sides of each equation, I'd much prefer getting hit in the face. There's a bit of a lottery mentality at work here and maybe it is a misperception: if you swing at me I have lots of possible outcomes, you miss, I dodge, it doesn't land squarely, it does but I shrug it off. The odds of me winding up KO'd are well under 1. Unaddressed, a chokehold is a 100% sure-thing ticket to unconsciousness.
As someone who fought a lot as a kid and teen, it's the kneeling chokeholds that make the sport completely unwatchable for me. Really any fighting that happens on the ground makes me claustrophobic.
posted by yerfatma at 8:50 AM on December 14, 2015
Remember that F=MA. If we can assume a slight increase in glove weight doesn't have much affect on arm speed, all gloves do is make the sport more palatable to the viewer and somewhat more dangerous to the fighters. Less blood because of less tearing, but more force in the punches.
Most people view chokes scarier and less acceptable than face punches, but I'd say the evidence disagrees.
Having been on both sides of each equation, I'd much prefer getting hit in the face. There's a bit of a lottery mentality at work here and maybe it is a misperception: if you swing at me I have lots of possible outcomes, you miss, I dodge, it doesn't land squarely, it does but I shrug it off. The odds of me winding up KO'd are well under 1. Unaddressed, a chokehold is a 100% sure-thing ticket to unconsciousness.
As someone who fought a lot as a kid and teen, it's the kneeling chokeholds that make the sport completely unwatchable for me. Really any fighting that happens on the ground makes me claustrophobic.
posted by yerfatma at 8:50 AM on December 14, 2015
Even though I know very well that champions only seem invincible until they lose, I was genuinely shocked to see Aldo make himself that vulnerable. Was he like this the whole time? I never remember him chasing so dangerously. I have no idea if my past self just didn't notice or if this is a new flaw. Either way, very elegantly exploited.
posted by ignignokt at 9:25 AM on December 14, 2015
posted by ignignokt at 9:25 AM on December 14, 2015
ignignokt, Jack Slack has your back. Hot off the presses, it's How Conor McGregor Killed the King:
I find myself disappointed in Aldo, though probably not as much as he and his team are. When it was time to write Killing the King: Jose Aldo all the way back in February of 2013 we noted Aldo's overcommitment and tendency to lead with his face when punching, and also his lack of a competent jab, particularly in the bout against Mark Hominick. Lo and behold, Aldo comes out against Frankie Edgar with a new, sharp jab and the sprinting in face first has subsided completely. I had no reason to mention his habit for bending forwards at the waist or running onto punches again... until last night....
McGregor has been somewhat denied the opportunity to counter of late, but Aldo seemed so riled up and happy to run in swinging that McGregor was able to get back to his roots.
Following the fight the talk is now of how ridiculous McGregor's power must be to fell Aldo with a flick of the wrist while moving backwards. Of course, it wasn't McGregor who supplied the force, it was Aldo—in running forward with his chin out in front of him and blinding himself to any return.posted by daveliepmann at 9:49 AM on December 14, 2015 [4 favorites]
Watch each man's corner team react to the fight.
posted by Etrigan at 10:03 AM on December 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Etrigan at 10:03 AM on December 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Fuck pay-per-view... UFC title fights should be shown on Vine.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:30 AM on December 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:30 AM on December 14, 2015 [3 favorites]
That would be like six Vines in a row just to show Herb Dean letting Rockhold batter Weidman with elbows from mount. Blech.
Speaking of 185, I'd like to see Jacare get a 5-round rematch if Romero takes the title from Rockhold. He was on track if there had been championship rounds.
posted by daveliepmann at 10:39 AM on December 14, 2015
Speaking of 185, I'd like to see Jacare get a 5-round rematch if Romero takes the title from Rockhold. He was on track if there had been championship rounds.
posted by daveliepmann at 10:39 AM on December 14, 2015
Trying to hurl someone into the ground is safer in some ways, less preferable in others
That's the one thing you said I'd take issue with - or maybe perhaps say that the latter half is a vast understatement? In my studies of Judo, the vast majority of throws have the end goal of driving your opponent towards the ground in such a way that the primary point of impact will be the back of the skull where the spine connects to it, followed by their entire body weight slamming down on that point like hammer on a nail.
The only difference between using it practically and training is that in training you learn to pull up on the gi at the last second and your opponent is well trained in falling safely.
posted by allkindsoftime at 1:50 PM on December 14, 2015
That's the one thing you said I'd take issue with - or maybe perhaps say that the latter half is a vast understatement? In my studies of Judo, the vast majority of throws have the end goal of driving your opponent towards the ground in such a way that the primary point of impact will be the back of the skull where the spine connects to it, followed by their entire body weight slamming down on that point like hammer on a nail.
The only difference between using it practically and training is that in training you learn to pull up on the gi at the last second and your opponent is well trained in falling safely.
posted by allkindsoftime at 1:50 PM on December 14, 2015
Throwing people who don't know how to take a fall is definitely pretty serious. The mostly grisly thing you tend to see in sport grappling I think is when someone hangs in 'til their arm actually goes kablooie.
posted by atoxyl at 2:53 PM on December 14, 2015
posted by atoxyl at 2:53 PM on December 14, 2015
Though being choked is pretty scary and way more routine, yeah.
posted by atoxyl at 3:12 PM on December 14, 2015
posted by atoxyl at 3:12 PM on December 14, 2015
Y'know. Dags.
posted by MOWOG at 3:57 PM on December 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by MOWOG at 3:57 PM on December 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
Dags. They're like hardcore taters except more trendy.
posted by Justinian at 6:42 PM on December 14, 2015
posted by Justinian at 6:42 PM on December 14, 2015
In case there's genuine puzzlement about dags:
Dags
(If you have not seen the movie and don't get why dags is being brought up, Brad Pitt's characters KOs people with a single punch)
posted by Bugbread at 7:40 PM on December 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
Dags
(If you have not seen the movie and don't get why dags is being brought up, Brad Pitt's characters KOs people with a single punch)
posted by Bugbread at 7:40 PM on December 14, 2015 [1 favorite]
allkindsoftime: Like most people, I trained with a readiness to take a fall, and for the most part, things were fine when I got thrown.
At the one judo tournament I played in, ukemi sorta wandered out of my mind for a while. When I got tossed (straight up ippon seoinage), I landed on my neck and shoulder. I did break my fall, but way later than I would have were I not preoccupied with competition. Also, it was on a judo mat on a college gymnasium, not the home dojo's spring-backed floor, which has a lot of give. While I didn't get hurt, I was like holy shit I could have been hurt as fuck if this was on a hard floor.
So, in terms of absolute safety for people who are not ready to break that kind of fall, it is less safe.
To daveliepmann's larger point about what seems fair and safe in a cultural context, though, the taboo on face-punching in Japan sounds likely, given what I know about the differences in Japanese MMA rules. There's a huge aversion to blood there. So, elbows on the ground are disallowed because they're so likely to cause cuts, even they're fairly superficial way. However, soccer kicks – standing opponents kicking downed opponents in the head – are allowed in Japan, or at least they were a few years ago. To me, a westerner, that just seems too easily permanently damaging to allow. But that's not likely to result in blood.
posted by ignignokt at 5:56 AM on December 15, 2015
At the one judo tournament I played in, ukemi sorta wandered out of my mind for a while. When I got tossed (straight up ippon seoinage), I landed on my neck and shoulder. I did break my fall, but way later than I would have were I not preoccupied with competition. Also, it was on a judo mat on a college gymnasium, not the home dojo's spring-backed floor, which has a lot of give. While I didn't get hurt, I was like holy shit I could have been hurt as fuck if this was on a hard floor.
So, in terms of absolute safety for people who are not ready to break that kind of fall, it is less safe.
To daveliepmann's larger point about what seems fair and safe in a cultural context, though, the taboo on face-punching in Japan sounds likely, given what I know about the differences in Japanese MMA rules. There's a huge aversion to blood there. So, elbows on the ground are disallowed because they're so likely to cause cuts, even they're fairly superficial way. However, soccer kicks – standing opponents kicking downed opponents in the head – are allowed in Japan, or at least they were a few years ago. To me, a westerner, that just seems too easily permanently damaging to allow. But that's not likely to result in blood.
posted by ignignokt at 5:56 AM on December 15, 2015
Ohhhh .... DOGS. Yeah, I like dags.
posted by theorique at 7:27 AM on December 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by theorique at 7:27 AM on December 15, 2015 [1 favorite]
Mystic Mac has secret metaphysics.
13 seconds. That podium talk fullerine posted upthread is unlike any I have seen before. The guy claims he has magic POWERS. I'm thinking magic pharmaceuticals but I am envious of the man's physique so will not claim reason and pure objectivity for my take.
posted by bukvich at 6:15 PM on December 15, 2015
13 seconds. That podium talk fullerine posted upthread is unlike any I have seen before. The guy claims he has magic POWERS. I'm thinking magic pharmaceuticals but I am envious of the man's physique so will not claim reason and pure objectivity for my take.
posted by bukvich at 6:15 PM on December 15, 2015
Dominick Cruz' pre-fight analysis is, to my ear, a great quick primer on the technical considerations of Aldo versus McGregor. The context is that Cruz is a former champion sidelined by repeated knee injuries, famous for his exceedingly unorthodox and idiosyncratic footwork, fighting "flowy" at range unless he's suplexing his opponents.
Cruz' analysis highlights one of the things I find so amazing about this sport: after proving that orthodox modern martial arts were insufficient for the task of fighting a well-rounded opponent (i.e. one who spars with wrestling, jiujitsu, and face-punching), we saw a contraction in the distribution of styles. Combining BJJ, muay Thai, and wrestling basically became the recipe for success.
Now we're seeing a re-introduction of many techniques from those discarded styles from people who train things like tae kwon do, karate, capoeira, and so on as a side dish for their main meals of wrestling, jiujitsu, and kickboxing. We know now that no one can succeed without wrestling and at least basic knowledge of BJJ fundamentals, that no one can succeed without being an athlete, that no one can succeed without knowing how to take a punch to the face and experience punching people in the face. (Amazingly, those facts were not common knowledge and are hard to convince people of even today.) But it turns out that wacky stuff like spin kicks and keeping your hands low can sometimes work...if you satisfy the prerequisites of making yourself athletic, having wrestling and jiujitsu, and training those unorthodox skills in the permissive and hard-contact context of muay Thai-style or MMA-style sparring. McGregor, like Anthony Pettis and Jon Jones and Ryan Hall, is showing what it takes to apply highly specialized skills like inverted guard work and spinning kicks to the broader task of fighting, and the limitations of those approaches.
posted by daveliepmann at 5:01 AM on December 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
Cruz' analysis highlights one of the things I find so amazing about this sport: after proving that orthodox modern martial arts were insufficient for the task of fighting a well-rounded opponent (i.e. one who spars with wrestling, jiujitsu, and face-punching), we saw a contraction in the distribution of styles. Combining BJJ, muay Thai, and wrestling basically became the recipe for success.
Now we're seeing a re-introduction of many techniques from those discarded styles from people who train things like tae kwon do, karate, capoeira, and so on as a side dish for their main meals of wrestling, jiujitsu, and kickboxing. We know now that no one can succeed without wrestling and at least basic knowledge of BJJ fundamentals, that no one can succeed without being an athlete, that no one can succeed without knowing how to take a punch to the face and experience punching people in the face. (Amazingly, those facts were not common knowledge and are hard to convince people of even today.) But it turns out that wacky stuff like spin kicks and keeping your hands low can sometimes work...if you satisfy the prerequisites of making yourself athletic, having wrestling and jiujitsu, and training those unorthodox skills in the permissive and hard-contact context of muay Thai-style or MMA-style sparring. McGregor, like Anthony Pettis and Jon Jones and Ryan Hall, is showing what it takes to apply highly specialized skills like inverted guard work and spinning kicks to the broader task of fighting, and the limitations of those approaches.
posted by daveliepmann at 5:01 AM on December 16, 2015 [5 favorites]
Aldo/McGregor 800% Slower, for me, really highlights the footwork, and Aldo's tension. He was itching to swing big.
posted by daveliepmann at 8:05 AM on December 19, 2015
posted by daveliepmann at 8:05 AM on December 19, 2015
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