One weird trick to save money when shopping
December 22, 2015 9:58 AM Subscribe

At the Washington Post’s Wonkblog, Danielle Paquette explains “why you should always buy the men’s version of almost anything”
posted by Going To Maine (210 comments total) 44 users marked this as a favorite

I didn't even realize that canes were a genderable product.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:00 AM on December 22, 2015 [11 favorites]

obviously in retrospect i'm an idiot especially in light of the bread thing but still
posted by poffin boffin at 10:01 AM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]

The full report from the NYC Department of Consumer Affairs: “From Cradle to Cane: The Cost of Being a Female Consumer”
posted by Going To Maine at 10:04 AM on December 22, 2015 [10 favorites]

Is this still true for razor blades? I noticed a long time ago that the difference between the men's and women's disposable razor refills were (a) the color and (b) about $10... so I used pink razor blades for a bit (and then just got a safety razor because a $15 multipack of safety razor blades has lasted me literally 5 years now)
posted by caution live frogs at 10:08 AM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

~~Men's Bra's~~ no no no, sorry, ignore that, ah shoot, embarrassing, never mind...
posted by sammyo at 10:09 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

I knew this about razors but not about everything else. Wow, it's so comprehensive a surcharge.
posted by Miko at 10:10 AM on December 22, 2015 [7 favorites]

In hardware stores, where I spend rather a lot of my time because of my landlord job fixing things, I sometimes see a "women's toolkit" -- it's always cheap tools that are cheaply made BUT PINK and sold for more money than decent tools and a toolbox to put them in would cost. If the Pink Toolkit had tools with handles designed to suit smaller hands, or tools that gave better leverage or something, I could see the point. But nope. It's always cheap-o pink tools in a pink box, costing more and working LESS WELL than real tools in a standard metal toolbox. Argh.
posted by which_chick at 10:10 AM on December 22, 2015 [39 favorites]

Anyone have an idea why underwear is so consistently the outlier (i.e., more expensive for men)?
posted by Etrigan at 10:11 AM on December 22, 2015

I knew about haircuts, where they have men's haircuts, then women's haircuts by length (but even the shortest is more expensive usually). I particularly like when I get a surcharge on the most expensive one because "well, your hair was longer [or thicker] than we thought".
posted by jeather at 10:12 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

My husband gets more outraged than I on my behalf towards how much more women's razors cost than men's.

As for everything else, I am not so much shocked as wearily and depressingly resigned.
posted by Kitteh at 10:13 AM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

Anyone have an idea why underwear is so consistently the outlier (i.e., more expensive for men)?

My guess is that men on average do not buy underwear with the same frequency as women.
posted by Karaage at 10:13 AM on December 22, 2015 [6 favorites]

Anyone have an idea why underwear is so consistently the outlier (i.e., more expensive for men)?

At least for some styles (boxers and boxer briefs), men's underwear has more fabric and seams and such, I assume it genuinely costs more to make.

I also assume they're not counting bras, but they should, and that would change things significantly.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:14 AM on December 22, 2015 [26 favorites]

Dear all women:

Really, truly sorry about all this.

Sincerely,
Most men (I hope).
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 10:14 AM on December 22, 2015 [10 favorites]

I remain kind of miffed that Dollar Shave Club insists on keeping up their heavily-gendered marketing, but I found that one interesting: given the price difference and that I'd think women conventionally would go through blades faster because more surface area if you shave your legs... why would men's razors be the ones you wanted to disrupt? Except that, I guess, you'd just prefer to run a company that caters to men. But they're such good razors. (I guess good enough Gilette is now suing them for it.) It gives me mixed feelings, buying products targeted at men that are certainly more affordable for me, but seem to reward the practice of gendering the product.
posted by Sequence at 10:15 AM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]

I regularly shop for running clothes in the "teen boys" section. Because not everything has to be pink & $85.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:15 AM on December 22, 2015 [13 favorites]

Anyone have an idea why underwear is so consistently the outlier (i.e., more expensive for men)?

i assume it's because men tend to wear them until they fall to actual shreds and pieces, and in general because they own fewer pairs than women, but i hope it is actually because of a secret matriarchal cabal running Big Man Panty
posted by poffin boffin at 10:15 AM on December 22, 2015 [95 favorites]

I have made my (male) partners handle certain financial and contractor transactions for me that I knew I would be overcharged for. I have literally written my boyfriend a script to handle a refund request on broken electronics. I am sure I can't be the only woman who's used the closest white male to her negotiating advantage.

The most recent example I can think of is when my father-in-law called a friend of his to ask how much he'd charge for bales of wheat straw that I wanted for my garden. $3 a bale, old buddy! So I called him back to schedule pick up and suddenly the price was $5 a bale and I was kicking myself for not just having my f-i-l pick up the damned things himself. I could have paid him the $100 difference for his time.
posted by annathea at 10:17 AM on December 22, 2015 [34 favorites]

secret matriarchal cabal running Big Man Panty

The existence of tighty-whiteys disproves this
posted by Karaage at 10:18 AM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]

Sequence- the extremely gendered marketing materials from Dollar Shave Club have, actually, suggested I buy a second handle for my 'girlfriend.' I *did* buy an extra handle for my boyfriend and we share the monthly blades, because we don't shave often enough to go through them all. Not all women shave, though, right? Lots wax, or use nair, or get lasered? I'm not sure.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 10:18 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

re: razors. You all need to switch to double-edge razors. You'll save an absolute ton.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:19 AM on December 22, 2015 [19 favorites]

I spent a good arguement telling my wife that men's and women's razors are the same and generally less expensive. Pink does not make them sharper or last longer.
posted by AlexiaSky at 10:20 AM on December 22, 2015

Ah. The razor blades were highlighted in the article. (teach me to read before commenting). So now, 5 years since I first noticed it, the prices have reversed. That's great, let's pay women less for working and charge them more to live, yay progress.

After some very quick amazon "research", this seems to still be the case for the very cheap 2-razor disposables.

My guess about this would be: 1. women actually burn through those quicker than men due to more surface area 2. The razor marketing cartel doesn't want these competitively priced, to make it more likely men buy the more expensive stuff.

Last year for my birthday my friend got me a safety razor, and it was literally the best gift ever. I spent like $22 on 200 of the "best" and most "expensive" razors I could find. I use about 4 a month, it'll take me like 4 years to go through them. (Also, personally I feel like they provide a better shave.)
posted by mayonnaises at 10:20 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

I noticed this in dry cleaning as well when I was younger and got a waiter job where I could wear mens dress shirts. Mens shirts were significantly less to dry clean then women's. This was 20 years ago but you could regularily gets a bunch of mens shirts laundried for 49 cents and a similar womens shirt would be almost $5.
posted by dog food sugar at 10:23 AM on December 22, 2015 [7 favorites]

nyone have an idea why underwear is so consistently the outlier (i.e., more expensive for men)?

Just a god-damn minute - exactly how expensive IS men's underwear?

Because I just restocked this weekend, and it cost me $125 for only 6 things. So if men's underwear really is more expensive for men, you better prove it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:24 AM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

Because I just restocked this weekend, and it cost me $125 for only 6 things.

That's approximately $100 more than you'd pay at the Gap for nice underwear.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:25 AM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

That's approximately $100 more than you'd pay at the Gap for nice underwear.

The Gap's underwear doesn't have the structural integrity to deal with boobage.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:27 AM on December 22, 2015 [11 favorites]

I mean they did a study which kind of proves it? The raw data is all there in the report(just the companies that begin with A, because it'd be annoying to post all of it)

Aéropostale Underwear Solid Aero Bikini F $8.50
Aéropostale Underwear Solid Boxer Briefs M $12.50
Aéropostale Underwear Logo Boyshort F $8.50
Aéropostale Underwear Solid Knit Trunks M $12.50
American Apparel Underwear Cotton Spandex Jersey Boy Brief F $13.00
American Apparel Underwear Baby Rib Brief M $14.00
American Eagle Outfitters Underwear Aerie Boybrief F $7.50
American Eagle Outfitters Underwear Aeo Classic Brief M $12.50
American Eagle Outfitters Underwear Aerie Signature Bikini F $7.50
American Eagle Outfitters Underwear Aeo Solid Low Rise Trunk M $12.50

As I said I think there are good reasons for it, and it doesn't seem to include bras, but for underwear that covers your genitals, I think it's true.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:27 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

N'thing the double-edged safety razor comment. I got a hundred blades for $12 which will last me a few years and they seem to do the same job that any fancy multi-blade razor ever did.
posted by octothorpe at 10:28 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Women's cheap underwear (Target 6-pack, Gap basics, etc) is made out of small bits of cotton and synthetic blend knit, sewn together pretty cheaply.

Men's underwear takes more fabric and is likely to be better fabric - woven 100% cotton, for instance. There's larger pieces of elastic sewn into them with multiple rows of stitching.

/has purchased variously gendered underwear.
posted by Frowner at 10:29 AM on December 22, 2015 [16 favorites]

The Gap's underwear doesn't have the structural integrity to deal with boobage.

Aha, gotcha. Well, that's not comparing apples to apples though, since men don't buy bras.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:29 AM on December 22, 2015

Ex Officio boxer briefs or boxers are about $120 for 6. They last for years though.
posted by Bee'sWing at 10:29 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

I am not fucking shaving my legs with a double-edged razor as it is obvious you all have no idea how clumsy I am with the current razors on offer.
posted by Kitteh at 10:30 AM on December 22, 2015 [26 favorites]

Folks will be talking about The Great Mefi Underpants Throwdown of 2015 for years to come.
posted by dr_dank at 10:31 AM on December 22, 2015 [28 favorites]

Now that I have a beard, razor blades last forever. I can see how this may not be an option for most women, though.
posted by entropicamericana at 10:31 AM on December 22, 2015 [6 favorites]

I knew this about some of the items listed. Like clothes (which are also usually of lower quality as well as more expensive for women.) But overall this just makes steam come out of my ears.
posted by bearwife at 10:32 AM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

I can make regular Gillette style multi-blade razors last for a couple months without rust or dulling, but I have to soak them in 95% Isopropyl and dry them on denim between each use.

But that's just me. It's still BS to price razors more for women.
posted by FJT at 10:33 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Aha, gotcha. Well, that's not comparing apples to apples though, since men don't buy bras.

Most men don't buy bras. It's a wide world, though.
posted by maxsparber at 10:36 AM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]

I am not fucking shaving my legs with a double-edged razor as it is obvious you all have no idea how clumsy I am with the current razors on offer.

Oh my god, same. There's a reason I use the ludicrously overpriced Intuition razors, and it's because I am least likely to do myself a hideous injury with them, and they don't require any separate lathering/shaving foam.
posted by yasaman at 10:40 AM on December 22, 2015 [9 favorites]

Anyone have an idea why underwear is so consistently the outlier

Yer wearing them wrong!
posted by chavenet at 10:41 AM on December 22, 2015 [29 favorites]

I won't go to safety razors because those nice razors with attached moisturizing do great and help in my "god I hate lathering up to shave" problem. I know it's more expensive this way, but it's worth it.
posted by jeather at 10:41 AM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

Now that I have a beard, razor blades last forever. I can see how this may not be an option for most women, though.

From now on, I'm not going to say I don't shave, I'm going to say that my legs and pits have a beard!
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:43 AM on December 22, 2015 [14 favorites]

Like clothes

Is this where we talk about how (toxic) interactions between self-image, peer pressure and the fashion industries (not just clothes, but also cars, houses and high-tech widgets) cost people the majority of their income?

Utility buying is a thing, but no one seems to want to really do that. Cheap, frumpy, poor, ill-dressed.
posted by bonehead at 10:44 AM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]

"Big Man Panty"

it's that weird thing where you see some words and instantly start getting panicky because you suspect that someone's figured out your stage name and maybe they're trying to let you know that they know but they're not just coming out and saying it, but then hey, maybe it's just random coincidence and probably has nothing to do with anything, right? so ... anyway uh ... i should go
posted by komara at 10:44 AM on December 22, 2015 [19 favorites]

I'm very beardy that standard.
posted by AlexiaSky at 10:45 AM on December 22, 2015

I won't go to safety razors because those nice razors with attached moisturizing do great and help in my "god I hate lathering up to shave" problem.

Those things terrify me tbh, it doesn't seem like it could be enough
posted by poffin boffin at 10:47 AM on December 22, 2015

Underwear (for the bottom bits) can be had for $1-1.50/pair in men or women's designs for the lowest end stuff on up to however much you want to spend for the pricey stuff. Having bought both men and women's underwear, I don't think there's much disparity for similar designs from the mid-range stuff from Jockey or Ex Officio.

There's more stuff at the lower mid-range for women because culturally men aren't marketed to or culturally expected to frequently buy or own "fun" underwear the way women are. The higher/fancier stuff for guys is largely marketed to gay men that have more disposable income and use it as a status signifier.
posted by Candleman at 10:48 AM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

The higher/fancier stuff for guys is largely marketed to gay men that have more disposable income and use it as a status signifier.

Alas!
posted by Going To Maine at 10:51 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

This is why I only buy Men's Pocky.
posted by 1adam12 at 10:51 AM on December 22, 2015 [29 favorites]

how are the green tea one and the panda one gendered though
posted by poffin boffin at 10:54 AM on December 22, 2015

I love the phrase "gender tax" so much. I cannot wait to throw that in the face of some smug engineers.

*adds "gender tax" to the list of phrases used when writing my Letters of Rage to outdoor companies about the egregious ways they treat women with their products*

Another way to look at it: at fed minimum wage of 7.25, a gender tax of $1,351 equals ~186 hours of working. That's 23 days of working, which at 40 hours a week, is ~4.5 weeks of work that goes solely towards making up that gap.

Now granted, not everybody working minimum wage is going to buy all those things, but still, the financial significance of that gap no matter the size and the implications of how it affects economic "stability", activities like putting money away in savings/retirement, available money for education, or single working mothers. . . those are huge.
posted by barchan at 10:57 AM on December 22, 2015 [10 favorites]

The gendered thing that infuriates me is sporting goods. Name any sport that requires equipment that fits, and the women's equipment has a lesser feature set and costs more money. And it's pink of course. Pink isn't my favorite color but I can tolerate it. I've even resigned myself to the higher costs.

But I am ANGRY that they dumb the stuff down. Why can't I have the same level of features and functionality that the men get?
posted by elizilla at 11:02 AM on December 22, 2015 [16 favorites]

Aren't women's products like specially pH-balanced for women, or contoured for a woman's curves? I'd be concerned about the kind of damage I could be doing to my body by using a deodorant that had the wrong pH balance for my skin.

Unless you're talking about pants, not really. And even then women don't have the same curves. The main difference in deoderant is the scent.

I had a coworker who was mystified by my ability to wear men's shoes*. He was convinced that men's and women's feet were so different that wearing men's shoes should be really, really uncomfortable for me and I'd be much more comfortable in heels. It was a very weird conversation. Really, I just got big lady feet.

*which, admittedly, are usually more expensive than women's shoes, but men's shoes tend to be of better quality and can often be fixed in ways that women's shoes can't.
posted by dinty_moore at 11:03 AM on December 22, 2015 [6 favorites]

Why can't I have the same level of features and functionality that the men get?

Like on the one hand I think it's great that women who are not tinily-sized can get 2 piece bathing suits where the top will be one size and the bottom will be another but lbr it wasn't done to make things easier for women, it was done for profit.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:04 AM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

The gendered thing that infuriates me is sporting goods.

I found this to be true when I was looking for boxing gloves, of all things; all the colors would be around a particular price, and then the pink "ladies" version would be about $5-10 more. Same functionality, though, and I detest pink anyway, so I quite happily got the "man" gloves.
posted by tautological at 11:06 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Is it because Patriarchy? (Haven't read the article, just an educated guess.)
posted by nikoniko at 11:06 AM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]

Honestly - again as a person who has purchased underwear marketed to various genders - I think you get a lot better quality for your money when comparing high-quality boxers, say, with high-quality women's underwear. "High quality" in terms of women's stuff often means "ornate" before it means "well-made", and you would be surprised by how not-high-quality some of that super expensive stuff is. And by how it has to be cossetted. How much men's underwear has to be hand-washed? Not much! I refuse to believe that we can put a man on the moon but we cannot invent a reliably machine-washable underwire.
posted by Frowner at 11:08 AM on December 22, 2015 [25 favorites]

Notable exception: Yoga and climbing gear.

A lot of it isn't particularly "gendered", and if you're a small dude, the womens' stuff is usually nicer and fits better. A few manufacturers are finally starting to drop the pretense of gendering their products at all (even shoes!).

In my group of climbing friends, I wouldn't be surprised if less than half of our shoes were "correctly gendered."
posted by schmod at 11:10 AM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

hal_c_on that was actually kind of my point
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:10 AM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

Those things terrify me tbh, it doesn't seem like it could be enough

Works for me, but I can't speak for everyone else's skin.
posted by jeather at 11:11 AM on December 22, 2015

Big Man Panty

I liked them before they were cool.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:17 AM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

It's totally not. I'm guessing you are a middle class woman, and you just spent $125 on 6 pairs. Middle class guys complain about 6 pairs being $40, and how come they aren't as cheap as the Hanes briefs that are for $30. That's what's going on. Dudes, your junkholders really are cheap.
posted by hal_c_on at 2:08 PM on December 22

Again there actually was a study on this, it's been linked to in this thread, and it said underwear (meaning for genitals, not bras) was more expensive for men. It's a derail, because this thread is about the fact that the vast majority of things are more expensive for women, but at least engage with the actual data, if you're going to offer an opinion?
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:18 AM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]

Really nice mens' underwear definitely exists, but it's probably still cheaper than anything marketed to women (and unlike the womens' stuff, the price/quality curve seems to have a uniformly positive slope, and it's all comfortable and easy to wash).

I also suspect that high-end womens' underwear is designed explicitly to be attractive to men, which is all kinds of bullshit.

[Admittedly, a lot of high-end mens' underwear is also designed to catch the attention of other men, but that's a different story, and we still have to wear the stuff ourselves, so it's still comfortable and easy to care for.]

And, FFS, how did we manage to create a society where washing machines are plentiful, and we still make underwear (of all things!!) that isn't machine-washable. Gross!
posted by schmod at 11:18 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

idk i just throw all my bras in that round bra bag thing right into the machine and it's pretty great
posted by poffin boffin at 11:22 AM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

curve seems to have a uniformly positive slope

It takes a more mature person than me to not point out this phrasing in a comment about men's underwear.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:24 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

MetaFilter: a secret matriarchal cabal running Big Man Panty
posted by ElDiabloConQueso at 11:26 AM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]

Look, if the pedants really want to nit-pick about it, then yes, the 6-packs of women's panties you can get at Target are only about 10 bucks, and that is about 2 bucks less than a similarly-sized pack of tighty whities.

However.

1. The tighty whities last longer than the womens' panties,
2. A number of women use the cheap stuff as "period underwear" anyway, so it's semi-disposable, and
3. Women are a lot more forgiving of men who only wear tighty-whities than men are forgiving of women who would only wear the Hanes 6-pack stuff.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:28 AM on December 22, 2015 [11 favorites]

I save money on razors by not caring as much about my hairy legs and wearing pants. Not a solution for everyone! But easier these days when no-one wears pantyhose, which twisted the hairs out of your legs/toes painfully.
posted by emjaybee at 11:29 AM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

idk i just throw all my bras in that round bra bag thing right into the machine and it's pretty great

Round Bra Thing is my favorite carol, this time of year.
posted by xingcat at 11:32 AM on December 22, 2015 [6 favorites]

There seems to be two things going on here; There are many products that are women specific and they are unreasonably priced higher. Yet there are many products that are the same except for the targeting and the "pink" version is priced higher. But in the latter case it’s totally up to the consumer to choose if they think the premium is worth it, and apparently someone does.

Many of these things did not exist in years past. Maybe it’s hard for younger people to see, but in many ways gender equality took huge steps backward in the last couple of decades. Many of the things that are common place today would have been laughable in the 80’s.
posted by bongo_x at 11:34 AM on December 22, 2015 [6 favorites]

You all need to switch to double-edge razors. You'll save an absolute ton.

Sure, until you get hit with Razor Acquisition Disorder, or blow €100 on the fancy shaving cream in a fugue state.
posted by Dr Dracator at 11:35 AM on December 22, 2015 [7 favorites]

There seems to be two things going on here; There are many products that are women specific and they are unreasonably priced higher. Yet there are many products that are the same except for the targeting and the "pink" version is priced higher.

Yeah the advice of not buying the gendered version works great for the second category and stuff like razors, but it's not really usable advice across the board. To take a specific fake gendered version from the study, you pay more for a children's bike helmet with a unicorn horn on it versus dinosaur spikes, so buying the dinosaur version is great if you want to save money, but not if your kid wants to be a unicorn.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:36 AM on December 22, 2015 [8 favorites]

Oh I guess it was a shark, not a dinosaur.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:37 AM on December 22, 2015

3. Women are a lot more forgiving of men who only wear tighty-whities than men are forgiving of women who would only wear the Hanes 6-pack stuff.

I have never found myself in a situation with a woman in her underwear and thought "No, that just won’t do".
posted by bongo_x at 11:38 AM on December 22, 2015 [83 favorites]

I have a regular Amazon Subscribe and Save order for "SensorExcel for Women" cartridges which I use to shave my head. They used to be cheaper than the ones marketed to men; now Amazon doesn't even sell the men's variety themselves at all. I could "upgrade" to the three-blade one I don't want to use, or I could cancel my subscription and buy grey market imports (which are, in fact, cheaper again), or I could just keep using the same blades I've been using to shave my head for several years now and let Amazon remember when to send me more. So, thanks, women, for keeping the product I like available domestically!

And yeah, I use a double edge safety razor for my face where the angles are easier, but I haven't been able to figure out how to shave the top and back of my head with it without carving divots, and OMG do those bleed a lot.
posted by fedward at 11:39 AM on December 22, 2015

the "pink" version is priced higher.

I'm not a religious person, but I would become one if assured that a very special hell awaited Nancy G. Brinker.
posted by bonehead at 11:41 AM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]

Another tidbit from the study I found interesting:

"A majority of clothing sold in the United States is imported from manufacturers abroad, which means
another price consideration in the supply chain is import taxes. Import taxes (or tariffs) on clothing, leather
goods, and shoes are set by Congress, and are explicitly based on gender. These tariffs are reflective of the
market for imported goods; the more a good is imported, the higher the tariff. For example, women’s silk
shirts have higher taxes than men’s silk shirts, whereas men’s wool suits have higher taxes than women’s wool
suits because of the relative demand for each. Overall, women’s goods generate more in import taxes than
men’s goods"
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:44 AM on December 22, 2015 [18 favorites]

Reading what you guys are spending on underpants and razors makes me sort of feel like a slob.
posted by uncleozzy at 11:46 AM on December 22, 2015 [13 favorites]

I was in Target's male clothing section the other day and holy crap! The stuff in there actually feels like it will last longer than a month! Their flannels are actually THICK and soft. A comparable shirt in the women's section was a tissue-thin poly/rayon blend horror show and also about $8 more expensive.
posted by sonmi at 11:47 AM on December 22, 2015 [20 favorites]

And yeah, I use a double edge safety razor for my face where the angles are easier, but I haven't been able to figure out how to shave the top and back of my head with it without carving divots, and OMG do those bleed a lot.

That’s why I would be careful about recommending safety razors for legs without having that experience. They’re great on my face, but I tried it on my head once. Once.
posted by bongo_x at 11:47 AM on December 22, 2015

A comparable shirt in the women's section was a tissue-thin poly/rayon blend horror show and also about $8 more expensive.

i honestly can't even attempt to comment on this without going into a fugue state and awakening in another state in a hedge covered in someone else's blood but OH MY GOD YES WHY ARE ALL WOMENS SHIRTS SEE THROUGH WHY IS EVERYTHING SO FUCKING TERRIBLE
posted by poffin boffin at 11:49 AM on December 22, 2015 [77 favorites]

I have never found myself in a situation with a woman in her underwear and thought "No, that just won’t do".

You are an enlightened exception, of which there are sadly all too few.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:49 AM on December 22, 2015 [11 favorites]

Can someone show me where to find Men's Tampons and Sanitary Pads please???
posted by JenThePro at 11:50 AM on December 22, 2015 [6 favorites]

i assume it's because men tend to wear them until they fall to actual shreds and pieces, and in general because they own fewer pairs than women, but i hope it is actually because of a secret matriarchal cabal running Big Man Panty

I would be completely unsurprised to learn that women are the main buyers of men's underwear.
posted by srboisvert at 11:51 AM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

I never could get the hang of double-edge razors, and then I had a bike accident which broke one arm and sprained the other which made using them impossible. I ended up using Harry's as a mail order service after discovering that Kroger stopped stocking the blades for my old "system," and communicating exactly which "system" I needed was another exercise in frustration.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 11:53 AM on December 22, 2015

I am a trans guy and recently started buying 100% of my clothes in the men's (or boy's department). First thing, besides being cheaper, they are better made and last longer. I bought a pair of women's $30 pants and they lasted perhaps a year. A $30 pair of men's Dockers will last 3-4 years (based off my ex-husband's experiences). That's incredible savings!

Also, I came out to my hair stylist recently, who owns her own salon (and thus sets her own prices). She gave me the exact same haircut, with squared off sideburns, and charged me $15 less. If I didn't like the cut so much I would have dropped her just for that.

Also also, I just changed my gender with Progressive Auto Insurance last night, and instantly got a $20 rebate. What in the hell.
posted by desjardins at 11:53 AM on December 22, 2015 [106 favorites]

I didn't even realize that canes were a genderable product.

Neither did I, until my grandmother came home from the doctor's office with a cane encrusted with flower decals.
posted by palomar at 11:53 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

A funny thing about being married is the switch from "wow, you're buying underwear again? Didn't you just buy some?" to "I threw out a couple pairs of holey underwear when I did the laundry. You should probably order more."
posted by fedward at 11:54 AM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

I save a ton of time and money by rejecting the idea that my legs and groin are places that need to be hairless in order to be acceptable for society.
posted by terretu at 11:57 AM on December 22, 2015 [14 favorites]

Also also, I just changed my gender with Progressive Auto Insurance last night, and instantly got a $20 rebate. What in the hell.

You must have either aged into that discount or got it for safe driving. There is no category where women are a greater driving risk than men (and thus merit lower premiums or rebates).
posted by srboisvert at 11:58 AM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

3. Women are a lot more forgiving of men who only wear tighty-whities than men are forgiving of women who would only wear the Hanes 6-pack stuff.

I'm certain that tighty-whities are a total dealbreaker among several of my lady friends. Nicer mens' briefs are OK, but tighties are the male equivalent to period underwear that nobody's supposed to see (if you own any at all).

also I happen to think basic cotton underwear on ladies is super cute and it looks a lot more comfy than most
posted by a halcyon day at 11:59 AM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

Speaking of posh underpants, Shepherd and I have been treating ourselves to the Undies of the Month club from MeUndies and oh lord, are they the most comfy underpants I have ever worn.
posted by Kitteh at 12:00 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

I found this to be true when I was looking for boxing gloves, of all things; all the colors would be around a particular price, and then the pink "ladies" version would be about $5-10 more. Same functionality, though, and I detest pink anyway, so I quite happily got the "man" gloves.

came here to say this. holy shit did this irk me (though I was fine with buying the men's gloves too, but the PRINCIPLE). my bf didn't really believe the whole 'gender tax' thing but for whatever reason this item in particular finally convinced him. ridiculous.

In my group of climbing friends, I wouldn't be surprised if less than half of our shoes were "correctly gendered."

not the same for my group but I have no doubt it varies. regardless, I should've bought those "men's" solutions. the women's were cheaper but they're pink. god I hate pink. I have literally considered coloring over the pink marbling with a sharpie. oh well I saved like $50
posted by suddenly, and without warning, at 12:01 PM on December 22, 2015

as long as an intended canoodler's underwear is not skidmarked or otherwise insalubriously soiled i don't really care what it looks like
posted by poffin boffin at 12:01 PM on December 22, 2015 [8 favorites]

An addition to the underwear discussion:

Working on oil rigs, sometimes you do your own laundry and sometimes you send it out. I noticed when I sent it out my regular clothes would come back but my undies and sports bras took a few days longer. Now, my rig clothes are the growdiest thing possible, they're stained and holey, and for one thing, if you send it out your name is Sharpied around the collars and the waistbands, I've got socks with my name and 3 different rig names scratched out on them and then rewritten - so I didn't care how my clothes got washed. But I didn't know why it took longer for my underwear and bras - was it a super creepy reason? Was the laundry taking special care of them because they were so obviously women's? I didn't know, and if it was creepy, I didn't want to know.

So I resorted to handwashing my bras - and they get super sweaty, so it's a process - and bought some men's boxer-briefs. And right away, it pissed me off - they were of so much better material, and they were a lot more comfortable to boot! And my butt! I didn't have any trouble with wedgies - they fit on my hips and butt a lot better - none of that butt multiplying from the edges of your underwear: no side-butt creeping out, no more distinctly knowing where my underbutt was or wondering where it was going in relation to my undies -it was a glorious, one butt experience. Is this the secret to guys' confidence, I thought, guy's underwear? Would I too feel like I could do anything if I wasn't subconsciously aware of my underbutt?

Well, I don't know about that, but anyway, now for travel and sports like backpacking, I buy guy's underwear. I love the ExOfficio lines in particular. And it does cost a little but more but from experience I know it lasts longer, too.
posted by barchan at 12:02 PM on December 22, 2015 [37 favorites]

All I want in underwear are women's boxer-briefs. Not boyshorts. Alas.
posted by jeather at 12:10 PM on December 22, 2015 [11 favorites]

I admit sometimes I'll pay more for say, the pink Scotch tape dispenser, or a pink spatula or a pair of socks with pink pompoms, because I have daughters who like pink as much as I do. But when it comes to shoddy and overpriced girly items, forget it. I love my heavy duty power drill and my good quality leather tool belt and my steel toed boots, and those things don't come in pink.
posted by jfwlucy at 12:12 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

jeather, try tomboyx in the UK
posted by desjardins at 12:13 PM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

Is this the secret to guys' confidence, I thought, guy's underwear? Would I too feel like I could do anything if I wasn't subconsciously aware of my underbutt?

I am so unaware of my underbutt that I have never thought that there should be a word for it. I, for one, am advocating more underbutt awareness.
posted by enjoymoreradio at 12:13 PM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

I have experienced the price markup at the cleaners. The first time I dropped my cotton dress shirts off, they were all long sleeved and, I guess read as default male. I was pretty psyched at how affordable it was to have them cleaned and decided newly professional me would start paying for this on the regular. The next time I dropped off some of those plus the short sleeved version, which read more clearly as lady shirt I think because men's short sleeves would be longer. This time I paid nearly twice as much per shirt because they were clearly lady shirts.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 12:13 PM on December 22, 2015

also search Autostraddle, they have had a few articles about masculine underwear for women that include boxer briefs.
posted by desjardins at 12:14 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

came here to say this. holy shit did this irk me (though I was fine with buying the men's gloves too, but the PRINCIPLE). my bf didn't really believe the whole 'gender tax' thing but for whatever reason this item in particular finally convinced him.

This was the point I was making earlier; These are not women’s boxing gloves, they’re pink ones. They’re charging more for pink ones just like they might charge more for green ones. Somebody is willing to pay it. The gender tax is real, but doesn’t apply to everything. The things that are are necessary and specific are the really ridiculous things.
posted by bongo_x at 12:14 PM on December 22, 2015

I regularly shop for running clothes in the "teen boys" section.

I do the same with shoes. I wear a women's 7-1/2 or 8, which translates into a boys' 6 or 6-1/2. I can get tennis shoes/hiking shoes and sandals for about half the price if I buy them in the boys' section. Bonus: No pink.
posted by mudpuppie at 12:17 PM on December 22, 2015 [8 favorites]

jeather, try tomboyx in the UK

Let me rephrase. All I want in underwear are women's boxer-briefs that ship out of Canada. (Or an increase in the de minimis level here, that would be fine.)
posted by jeather at 12:21 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

OH MY GOD YES WHY ARE ALL WOMENS SHIRTS SEE THROUGH WHY IS EVERYTHING SO FUCKING TERRIBLE

I almost ran screaming out of a Nordstrom Rack a few weeks ago. I don't understand what this is about at all. No, wait, I do. If you have to wear three layers in order to not have your undies showing, you have to buy three times the clothes. It's not like the see-through clothes cost 1/3 the price. It's ludicrous. I wanted a dress shirt, ended up buying a sweater. All the shirts were this horrible gauzy, clingy, see-through nonsense that not only showed off my bra (even with two layers) but also was so weirdly cut that it clung tenaciously to every single fat blob on my body (sizing up was the same issue, except now the sleeves are down to my knees).
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:46 PM on December 22, 2015 [25 favorites]

OH MY GOD YES WHY ARE ALL WOMENS SHIRTS SEE THROUGH WHY IS EVERYTHING SO FUCKING TERRIBLE

Fucking seriously, there are NO affordable stores that aren't inundated with this crap. Places that were ok quality 5-10 years ago are basically forever21 quality at 10x the price (see: the utter joke that is J.Crew in 2015). Everything is a "LAYERING PIECE" now. God forbid you want to just wear a t-shirt and get on with your life. Nope, gotta buy the $20 "layering tank" and $40 sheer cardigan too if you don't want to flash everyone in a three mile radius.
posted by sonmi at 12:51 PM on December 22, 2015 [35 favorites]

These are not women’s boxing gloves, they’re pink ones. They’re charging more for pink ones just like they might charge more for green ones.

Except they were explicitly marketed as "women's" gloves, and sold separately from the "men's" gloves in all the other colors, despite being functionally identical. I know better, and I imagine most people know better, but I'm fairly sure it's done to net a couple of extra bucks from women who are unfamiliar with the gear requirements. Same deal as the differently marketed razor blades - if you don't know that both the pink and blue boxes fit your razor, you pay more.

OH MY GOD YES WHY ARE ALL WOMENS SHIRTS SEE THROUGH WHY IS EVERYTHING SO FUCKING TERRIBLE

Agreed. First I stopped buying anything in white/light shades, ever, for this very reason. Add into that the last few seasons of shirts forgetting that most women wear bras, usually ones with straps I would prefer not to have visible? Well, they don't want my money, I guess.
posted by tautological at 1:00 PM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]

Fucking see through shirts. This trend infuriates me so much. IT DOESN'T LOOK GOOD. And as if it wasn't enough that the goddamn shirts are see through, most of the camisoles and tank tops that you could possibly wear under them are ALSO SEE THROUGH. So you need a bra that, somehow, has no obvious lines and is perfectly flesh-colored, and even then it's going to be visible. I don't get it. Am I supposed to layer like three camis? Like, I accept that it's inevitable that I will have to wear a tank top or cami under a cream-colored or white shirt/cardigan, I'm doing that right now and it's fine. This sweater is very warm and comfy, and it's worth it. But so many other tops are super thin and gauzy for no discernible reason.

And as if that wasn't bad enough, if the top isn't too clingy, then it's weirdly huge and baggy. Like, HUGE. I'm buying sizes XS and S, and there's room to fit like an entire extra me in these shirts. What the hell?
posted by yasaman at 1:00 PM on December 22, 2015 [10 favorites]

Poffin boffin, you are memorialized in my every visit to a clothing store nowadays, as I wander around muttering Everything remains terrible.

I swear to god I am tempted to start a website that would simply be a venue for women to gather and vent about the ludicrous, mind-boggling, soul-destroying hideousness of current women's clothing. Failing which, I will at least favorite the hell out of all such comments here and elsewhere on MeFi.
posted by Kat Allison at 1:02 PM on December 22, 2015 [8 favorites]

This was the point I was making earlier; These are not women’s boxing gloves, they’re pink ones. They’re charging more for pink ones just like they might charge more for green ones. Somebody is willing to pay it. The gender tax is real, but doesn’t apply to everything. The things that are are necessary and specific are the really ridiculous things.

Except that it's never charging more for the green, only ever the pink. And with boxing gloves, ok, I'm not a boxing glove purchaser so maybe it is obvious the only thing different is the color. But for razors, I guess I'm an idiot because it never occurred to me to compare prices with the men's stuff. And who cares if my razors are pink or not, I just unthinkingly bought women's razors because I'm a woman.

And like, thinking about it for my cycling gear, men's stuff doesn't FIT me. I have no choice but to buy the pink shit that costs 15% more because it's the only stuff that fits my small hands/feet or fits my boobs or my butt. I have no idea if it costs more because again, what is the point of looking at men's shit to price-check especially given that it won't fit me anyway? I shouldn't HAVE to look at men's shit to price-check.
posted by misskaz at 1:02 PM on December 22, 2015 [9 favorites]

Fucking seriously, there are NO affordable stores that aren't inundated with this crap.

I literally have not worn anything other than gym clothes and pajamas since 2012. Oh, and I stole 3 old ratty tank tops from my cousin during the "everything is on fire and i have a concussion" part of my summer, I wear those all the time. But my god I have shitty ancient Old Navy t-shirts that are legit 12 years old which are less see-through than brand new ones you could buy there right now today.

hm maybe i should sell them on ebay
posted by poffin boffin at 1:14 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

There really is a bit of anatomical difference in feet between men and women.
posted by rmd1023 at 1:15 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

I'm glad I don't have very curvaceous hips so I can get away with wearing men's pants. They're not cheap, but they're good. I buy them from the big and tall men's shop. I hate women's pants - particularly fat women's pants - with the white hot fire of a thousand suns. Since I can buy in the men's department, I get not just pockets but cargo pockets. Which gives me a place to stash my phone when I don't want to keep it tucked in my bra.
posted by rmd1023 at 1:17 PM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]

Ok but I think that article fails to take notice of how awesomely ripped my tibialis anteriors are
posted by poffin boffin at 1:17 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Dang this thread. Now I bought some MeUndies.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:19 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

I am sad because I used to get awesome fun underwear from Aerie and it was well-made, relatively speaking, and lasted a while (I'm wearing 4-year-old underpants with lobsters on them RIGHT NOW), but my most recent set of fun underwear from Aerie is poorly made (much thinner, the seams are already starting to unravel) and the whimsical prints are not nearly as whimsical (OK, the polar bears in hats are nice, but where are my crustaceans?). Anyone know where I can get reasonably-priced funderwear?
posted by ChuraChura at 1:24 PM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

barchans, how do you deal with the weird seams in men's briefs, though? I tried some boxers once (it was the 90s, everyone was doing it!), they felt weird.

Do the briefs not have this problem?
posted by emjaybee at 1:24 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

I'm not sure there's that much of an anatomical difference in feet, though, because I know many, many people who wear cross-gendered shoes (so to speak) without any issue. Well-made shoes have some flex, because people's feet are different not only across gender but - sometimes profoundly - between individuals. In fact, I'm a little distrustful of the significance of this study (not its accuracy but whether it's actually raising an important issue) because, for instance, two men can have feet of the same length and width while having dramatically different fits (one might have a high arch but a thin foot; the other might have a low arch and a thick foot, etc). So for instance, I can't wear even close to all men's 8.5 shoes - I have to have shoes which fit a high arch, an average heel, a wide forefoot and long middle toes. And many men who could wear shoes which don't fit me would be uncomfortable in the shoes I wear.

The idea that whatever differences exist, on average, between women's and men's feet [leaving aside intersexed and trans people, who seem to make the whole thing a bit meaningless anyway] exceed differences between men or between women seems really odd to me, given how tricky it is for me to find comfortable shoes.
posted by Frowner at 1:26 PM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]

jeather, re: women's boxer briefs, maybe try the Jockey slipshorts? Link is to the Canadian site, so it looks like you should be able to easily shop there. I have several pairs of these and they are fabulously comfortable and panty-line-free, although they do slowly creep up the thighs in the course of a day.
posted by Kat Allison at 1:27 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

I get around the men's underwear problem by stealing cloth napkins from restaurants and fashioning them into fundoshi. Sure turns heads at the pool, too.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 1:28 PM on December 22, 2015 [7 favorites]

Given how shitty most women's shoes are, I have trouble believing that buying shoes made for slightly-different-on-average men's feet would add significantly to the overall shittiness.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 1:29 PM on December 22, 2015 [10 favorites]

I find Duluth Trading's women's clothes opaque and durable, and they'll tell you what the fit model is. Now I'm afraid to check the gender price differential.
posted by clew at 1:36 PM on December 22, 2015

Emjaybee - I don't have problems with the seams on boxer-briefs; I found that because I have hips the extra cloth for the penis cave stretches out across my belly and isn't uncomfortable, either.

Regular boxers on the other hand are problematic, I find I just can't get them to fit - they're simultaneously too baggy and too tight.
posted by barchan at 1:37 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

I buy men's sports shoes all the time because they just fit my huge, wide feet a lot better. And also because I am violently allergic to the hideous fluoro pink that is endemic to women's shoes. Fuck that shit.
posted by ninazer0 at 1:37 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Frowner: Fair enough - I was mostly thinking that there may be enough of a difference that ShoeBrand's Men's 7 fit better or worse for someone than ShoeBrand's Women's 8 (or however the sizes line up), rather than being a straight comparison. But, yeah, humans are weird and nonstandard.
posted by rmd1023 at 1:37 PM on December 22, 2015

Generally speaking, (US) men's shoe sizes are two smaller than women's, at least for me. So if you wear a 9 woman you wear a 7 men. But results vary of course.
posted by emjaybee at 1:41 PM on December 22, 2015

I tried some boxers once

No one really understands how or why the y-front came out. They appear in your underwear drawer as a young squirt without instruction manual or friendly tutorial. Rushed questions are whispered during recess, but are met equally with bafflement and shame. Some rebel against them and go over, some do the full pull-down though many more live to fumble through. Life seems straightened and constrained, tied by mysterious seams and layers.

In adulthood, some escape this complicated paddock by discovering the secrets of their forebearers. The brief with its sensible, simple flap seam is a gloriously comfortable and open experience, while still allowing the barn doors to be closed when the elephants come home.

Yes, emjaybee, briefs can be life changing.
posted by bonehead at 1:45 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

MetaFilter: penis cave
posted by oheso at 1:46 PM on December 22, 2015 [8 favorites]

Chucks literally have "9W/7M" on the box; they are exactly the same. Except, I remember from when I sold them, the pink pairs only listed the women's size. I can't remember if they were any more expensive.
posted by sunset in snow country at 2:00 PM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

Ugh, FLY. *groans* The fly is the phrase that escaped me.
posted by barchan at 2:01 PM on December 22, 2015

This thread makes me hate everything again.

Re Shoes: cute girl's shoes do not fit my trans lady feet and that makes me really really fucking mad.

Razors: I pay 15-20 dollars for Mach 3 Turbo Awesome Super Mega Macho Ass Kicker 9-blade Ice-Lazer diamond cut blades that promise the absolute closest shave on a manly man's testosterone leather-hide face. I get about um. Maybe a month out of each one. Please help me find a cheaper option. Electrolysis is as expensive as fuck yo.

And I'm sorry the patriarchy fucked up being a woman for all women. As a previous member of the man class I'm really really fucking sorry.
posted by Annika Cicada at 2:03 PM on December 22, 2015 [8 favorites]

The last brand of earplugs I bought were gendered instead of being sized. The women's are smaller, neon pink and only go up to 36 decibels while the men's are a band-aid shade of tan and go up to 38. I bought the men's.
posted by soelo at 2:07 PM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]

(regarding razors, they are a 5-pack. I should probably make an ask for my question. interesting read overall thanks!)
posted by Annika Cicada at 2:10 PM on December 22, 2015

Annika, I switched to Dollar Shave club and couldn't be happier. I can now afford to use a new razor every Monday morning. Luxury! Also, I really like their shave butter.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 2:21 PM on December 22, 2015

Why Women's Pockets Are Useless, A History just appeared on my Twitter. Timely!
posted by emjaybee at 2:21 PM on December 22, 2015 [7 favorites]

When being given the option, I always buy womens running shoes because they come in nice colors. The same ones for men normally look like you are running around with your feet covered in white-black-brownish shit.

Before I discovered womens shoes I was running around in nice looking mens shoes that didn't really fit me (because all shoes for pronators are boooring for some reason) and now my feet hurt less and I save money because womens UK size 9 go on sale a lot
posted by uandt at 2:24 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

I would be completely unsurprised to learn that women are the main buyers of men's underwear.

I read something about this here within the last year, either in a link in an FPP or in a comment, making that same point and talking about how it affects marketing. It is certainly true for all the married men I know, to the best of my knowledge.

Regular boxers on the other hand are problematic, I find I just can't get them to fit - they're simultaneously too baggy and too tight.

I'm a man and I had exactly the same reaction the last time I tried on regular boxers. No thanks.

The other aspect I've seen covered in other analyses of the gender tax is all the expenses women (or many women, at least) have that (most) men do not: makeup, salon services such as waxing and facials, etc. They can total out to a lot of money, and even today aren't optional for a lot of jobs.
posted by Dip Flash at 2:26 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

I choose bright pink versions of any jobsite items like earplugs, utility knives, and lanyard strings because not only are they more visible than their neutral-hued counterparts, they are much less likely to get pilfered on said job site.
posted by a halcyon day at 2:30 PM on December 22, 2015 [15 favorites]

With respect to insurance, I'm confused as to why it is considered a gender tax. The whole insurance industry is based on taking basic info about a person (age, ethnicity, gender, etc.) and turning it into a risk/cost profile. Of course health insurance should cost more for those with longer life expectancies, just as car insurance should cost more for those with higher accident expectancies, because it costs the insurer more to provide the coverage.

I spent a year as an insurance analyst and there is something to what you are saying. I call this the divide and conquer strategy of insurance where instead of actually functioning as insurance with a broad distributed risk pool it essentially becomes a finely grained market segmented catastrophe pre-payment plan resembling what passes for dental coverage in North America. Every time I see those Progressive driving monitor things on TV I cringe.

It's a logical application of the horribleness of neo-liberalism. The statistical meritocracy mugs us all. Some today. Some tomorrow and some much latter. But we will all be found wanting.
posted by srboisvert at 2:33 PM on December 22, 2015 [7 favorites]

Anatomical differences in men's and women's feet isn't pronounced enough that women's heels would be more comfortable than men's flats. I mean, really now.
posted by dinty_moore at 2:34 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Chucks literally have "9W/7M" on the box; they are exactly the same. Except, I remember from when I sold them, the pink pairs only listed the women's size.

I wore pink Chuck’s in the 80’s. They had several colors of pink and they were not labeled or sold as women’s then.
posted by bongo_x at 2:34 PM on December 22, 2015

Full disclosure: I work for a large CPG company. I have no input into pricing, varietals, marketing, or productuon. I do have a pretty good view into the decisions around some of that though.

Convincing men to buy men's branded products is actually quite tough. Men are very willing to buy the cheapest possible priduct. They are sort of brand loyal, but won't look for their product if it isn't easy to find nor will they try something that hasn't been accepted en masse. Making a case for 5 blades on a razor (and a 6th on the back) is akin to the Dewalt 18V drill instead of the competion's 18V drill. Similarly, Dollar Shave Club makes a compelling cheap / convenient argument (that hopes to make money by either frequency modification or premiumizing product to $2.00 shave). You have 12 seconds to sell your products on shelf to a man. You have 45 seconds to sell the women's variety. If the men's variety is too expensive, they will take the value option, shop elsewhere, or buy what their father did. Irish spring used to be the unisex variety, now it is the value option. Old Spice won with their weird campaign. Before that, Dove Men+ classed up those that had outgrown the originator modern of "men's" PC, Axe.

The men'should market is ridiculously underpenetrated comparative to the women's. Men use significantly less products in their routine than women. They are a growing branch as opposed to a branch where customers have to be fought for. In this sense, it is easier to aquire one new male customer, than it is to provide a compelling case for a woman to switch.

None of this is meant as justification - just the facts as I know them.
posted by Nanukthedog at 2:37 PM on December 22, 2015 [23 favorites]

My favorite pair of shoes are a pair of men's loafers, size 9 1/2, from Nordstrom Rack. I do a lot of walking; in women's shoes, the soles and heels wear out quickly, but the soles of these are like iron.
posted by mogget at 2:39 PM on December 22, 2015

I don't know, about the pink tools and boxing gloves and things, I've always thought that the pink was a premium product where the non-pink option was the default/neutral/unisex. So in the same way that that a pair of (say) neon green tools or gloves might be priced higher - because they make fewer, so the costs might be marginally higher, and because of market segmentation (the idea that you can sell one type of gloves to price-conscious consumers and sell another more expensive pair of gloves to style-conscious consumers, thus maximizing revenue) - a pair of pink gloves is priced higher, not because it's the women's option, but because it's a premium option.

I know, though, that sometimes the way a store is set out or marketing materials read, it looks like the pink option is the only women's option. Then that's pretty BS, but I wonder if the problem is the marketing rather than the price.
posted by R a c h e l at 2:40 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

The other thing I'd point to is the fact that products marketed specifically as the MAN version are also more expensive than the "default". It is horribly offensive to wonder if maybe our issue is the message of femininity - which I'd say women teach as often as men, or even more so - that says that girls and women shouldn't use the "default" or masculine version?
posted by R a c h e l at 2:44 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

He was convinced that men's and women's feet were so different that wearing men's shoes should be really, really uncomfortable for me and I'd be much more comfortable in heels.

Has he ever seen a woman's foot? Is he at all familiar with physics? I've heard of clueless and thoughtless but someone actually believes heels are more comfortable than shoes without or very little heel?

This thread is full of astounding.

The last brand of earplugs I bought were gendered instead of being sized. The women's are smaller, neon pink and only go up to 36 decibels while the men's are a band-aid shade of tan and go up to 38. I bought the men's.

Another example. Being a light sleeper I have to wear ear plugs to stay asleep but have been fortunate enough to never see or even think of gendered ear plugs, though having said that I'm not sure of the average size of adult ear holes but regardless, colour is obviously entirely irrelevant. I get them at hardware stores. I like the foamy sort (so far have always been bright orange) over the rubbery sort (so far mostly a bright orange though maybe I saw blue once).

For underwear it's Costco.
posted by juiceCake at 2:46 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

My wife was looking for tank tops to wear around the house. She was trying to find something at the department stores and everything in women's was way too expensive. She ended up going with a bag of men's tank undershirts at Kohl's which gave her ten shirts at the price of one women's shirt. It's ridiculous.
posted by Ber at 2:46 PM on December 22, 2015

Anatomical differences in men's and women's feet isn't pronounced enough that women's heels would be more comfortable than men's flats. I mean, really now.

Unless you have Barbie feet, maybe. (Which I think is actually a thing, in that people who wear high heels all the time can end up shortening their achilles tendons and then find flats uncomfortable. But I'm not sure that really counts as a gender-based anatomical difference.)
posted by jaguar at 2:46 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

Has he ever seen a woman's foot? Is he at all familiar with physics? I've heard of clueless and thoughtless but someone actually believes heels are more comfortable than shoes without or very little heel?

I think it's part of the "cool girl" ideal where women are sexy but it doesn't take any work (because then it's "high-maintenance").
posted by jaguar at 2:48 PM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]

Building on my point about gendered versions being premium rather than sexist some of the time, I wondered about products that actually work differently for each gender, under the assumption that ones that work differently couldn't be "premium". I'll let everyone else argue underwear and shoes, but here's a little price check on vitamins.

Target, where I suspect the prices are set by people, has women's one a day gummies for $13.99 and men's one a day gummies for $14.39. Centrum and Ollie brands are both the same price for both genders.

Amazon, where I suspect the prices are set by algorithms, has Nature Made at $11.29 for women and $9.02 for men. They also have men's one a day at $7.89 for women and $5.59 for men.

It's hardly an exhaustive study, but it seems like they're similar when selected by people/brands (possibly a political decision) and women's are more when they're selected by algorithm. Extrapolating too much would require more insight into the algorithm than I have, but I'd guess that women are more likely to want a specifically gendered one rather than the unisex one (and thus more inelastic) or the demand and production for men's is significantly greater.

I concede that women's are definitely more expensive, so maybe the price difference is not primarily a "premium" product issue (though I still think that's a component of the price in some cases). I'm trying to think of more categories to look up, but I'm realizing that there are very few categories where women and men both use a thing but they work differently for different genders. So I guess that's good, because it means we women don't have to put up with the high prices very often.
posted by R a c h e l at 3:06 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

As misskaz mentioned above, cycling gear is some the worst. I once had a bike shop employee apologize when I asked if they had any helmets in my size that weren't pink and covered in flowers. Because of course they didn't. Bike specific clothing is ugly enough to begin with, but the stuff that is cut to fit me is both ugly and hot pink. I don't even dislike pink, I just resent that it often is my only option.

And pockets. OMFG pockets! Because u locks are heavy, I prefer to carry mine in my back pocket as opposed to my messenger bag. This rules out most jeans and cords made by common brands (Gap, J Crew, etc). I have tried wearing men's pants, but they don't fit in ways I really don't like.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 3:14 PM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

I find Duluth Trading's women's clothes opaque and durable, and they'll tell you what the fit model is.

I was just paging down to sing their praises! And the necklines are actually well above nipple level! Right now things seem to be randomly on sale so it's hard to compare the prices between the men's and women's clothes, though.
posted by dilettante at 3:15 PM on December 22, 2015

> My guess about this would be: 1. women actually burn through those [disposable razors] quicker than men due to more surface area 2. The razor marketing cartel doesn't want these competitively priced, to make it more likely men buy the more expensive stuff.

It's also comparatively easy for women to make an economic choice to not shave or shave rarely. Women have all sorts of garments at hand to hide their legs and anything else they care to shave, so they can get by with low-frequency regular shaving, shaving only seasonally, shaving for planned/anticipated intimacy, etc.

Guys show their faces all year 'round, and even those of use who are in (many, but by no means all) jobs that let you grow facial hair can't or won't do so because unshaven faces can go from zero to crap in a small number of days.

For those who have a problem with Dollar Shave Club's marketing (I'd like to wipe that smarmy grin off the spokesman's face too): Buy from Dorco, because that's who DSC buys razors from. Cut out the middleman. Or go double-edge and never look back, except every third or fourth year when you buy new blades.
posted by Sunburnt at 3:22 PM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

people who wear high heels all the time can end up shortening their achilles tendons and then find flats uncomfortable

It only just dawned on me that it must've just been an urban legend, but I grew up believing that Dolly Parton had developed 'Barbie feet' because she'd worn such high heels for so long, and thus she couldn't even walk barefoot across her bedroom without being in agony. The story was always presented with a certain awe and admiration, never as a cautionary tale, which is... actually maybe not all that surprising.
posted by argonauta at 3:26 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

> And yeah, I use a double edge safety razor for my face where the angles are easier, but I haven't been able to figure out how to shave the top and back of my head with it without carving divots, and OMG do those bleed a lot.

The consensus on reddit seemed to be that there's a time and a place for cartridge razors. Even many of the hardcore straight-razor shavers would switch back to a cartridge razor when it came to trimming around the meat-and-two-veg.
posted by Sunburnt at 3:29 PM on December 22, 2015

WRT safety razors, your mileage will vary. I tried them for over a year, and compared to a Mach3, the safety razor requires a lot more careful attention to get a comparably-close shave. If my attention lapses, I'm going to bleed. Even if it doesn't, a close shave with a safety includes a certain amount of razor burn. I went back to the crazily-overpriced Mach3. Those safety razors should all be pink, so the blood would be less prominent.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 3:38 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Hey y'all. There's no need to go looking on Amazon or Target websites comparing products yourself. The study in the main link already did it for you. The research was done and this was the conclusion. They compared 800 products. This isn't some unsubstantiated opinion piece here.

I realize that - I was just trying to look at the price difference for products that actually work better for one gender (like vitamins, unless my poor understanding of nutrition led me astray - which is totally possible) rather than ones that are a matter of preference (like clothing) or really stupid marketing (like tools). I suppose I could have just pulled the prices from the study rather than the website, but the study didn't take vitamins into account and that was the first category of items I could think of.

Things that women have to buy the women's version of when it's not because of utility, exactly, but because of size are definitely a thing, like shoes, but at least smaller women can sometimes get away with (and save a bundle with) identical kids' versions!
posted by R a c h e l at 3:39 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Vitamins are a poor example because they're formulated quite differently for the different genders (more iron, calcium, folate for women, etc., and more B vitamins for men). The variance could easily come from the cost of the basic compounds in the vitamin formulation - pure isolated vitamins can wildly vary in cost.
posted by Miko at 3:54 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

And I'll believe pink is "premium" when any other color of the product also has an up charge. Sure you might be able to find examples but at an aggregate level, pink is not premium and is often the only version with an up charge.

In many cases, pink is the only other color (other than one or two defaults, which don't say "men" on them and which women can perfectly well buy) to exist. A good example would be the scooters cited in the article. Why does it have to be sexism rather than market segmentation? What are the factors that lead to women paying more?

My theory? Women are (socialized to be) more product-conscious, and so we're willing to pay more - and a feminine, expensive version is a rational reaction to that. And when it's an equivalent product that we're buying, we're voting with our dollars every time we purchase the feminine one.

That's why I was interested in the disproving cases where products weren't equivalent (like vitamins, and from the study, portable urinals are another good example), and I now concede that they're more expensive as well. So that's a pretty good counterargument, though I'm not completely ready to let go of the premium theory when it comes to all the gendered-but-equivalent things.
posted by R a c h e l at 3:59 PM on December 22, 2015

And I'll bow out for a while, since I'm pretty sure I'm arguing in circles with myself. Sorry!
posted by R a c h e l at 4:02 PM on December 22, 2015

My theory? Women are (socialized to be) more product-conscious, and so we're willing to pay more - and a feminine, expensive version is a rational reaction to that.

Which is ....not sexist?

I mean, the theory's no good. If you think boys/men aren't product-conscious, try getting a group of 10-year-old boys to accept a pink anything.
posted by Miko at 4:11 PM on December 22, 2015 [9 favorites]

It's also comparatively easy for women to make an economic choice to not shave or shave rarely

It sure doesn't feel that way (at least to me). If we're talking about the broadest patterns, and only calculating worry about being judged for looking like 'crap' (not specific workplace rules), it seems like the additional leeway women might have from expected scrutiny in the colder months doesn't offset how intense that scrutiny is in the warmer ones... or at any even-slightly-semi-formal occasion... and that's before we get into 'jokes' about female politicians' pantsuits (i.e., yeah, they're allowed, but if that's all you wear professionally, expect to get noticed)... or the outright popularity of beards of all lengths... or the shaving-related expectations men, on average, have of their intimate partners--365 days/year--versus the other way around, regardless of when/whether sex is anticipated. I know a lot more women who bring razors camping than I do men, for example, and a lot more men who take every weekend "off."
posted by argonauta at 4:26 PM on December 22, 2015 [10 favorites]

I'd think women conventionally would go through blades faster because more surface area if you shave your legs...

As a woman who shaves both her legs and face, I can assure that the hair on your face being much thicker and tougher than the hair on your legs more than compensates for the surface area difference.
posted by Dysk at 4:31 PM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]

Blades matter, for safety razors. You wouldn't think so, but it appears to be the case. I consistently nick myself when using Feather blades, but never with Astra Superior Platinums. (Both are considered high quality.) The consensus on the shaving fora, last time I checked, was that it's a bit idiosyncratic and the thing to do is get a multi-brand sampler pack and then stick with whatever seems to work for your particular hair and skin.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 5:19 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

I bought some non-opaque t-shirtsat Chicos. They were fairly neutral shirts, bought at 50% off and have lasted for 5 years of very very regular wearings. (Basically I rotated through 5 of them every work day.) Now they're starting to get ratty and I just wear them for running. Also, I have breasts big enough that most button up shirts gap, but the dress shirts from Talbots don't, plus they seem to be made of pretty solid fabrics.
posted by small_ruminant at 5:21 PM on December 22, 2015

The last brand of earplugs I bought were gendered instead of being sized. The women's are smaller, neon pink and only go up to 36 decibels while the men's are a band-aid shade of tan and go up to 38.

I buy the pink ones, because I guess I have really small ear holes. Ear canals? I always found earplugs super-uncomfortable until I gave the smaller ones a try.

I've been buying all the razors for my household lately (the lotiony foamy multi-blade kind) and my husband liked all the foamy parts, but found the very rounded sides frustrating. He now has a second razor with a traditional square head for his sideburns and under-nose.
posted by Squeak Attack at 6:23 PM on December 22, 2015

I noticed this in dry cleaning as well when I was younger and got a waiter job where I could wear mens dress shirts. Mens shirts were significantly less to dry clean then women's.

This one is brought up often in discussions like these, but it's the extremely rare case where the difference in price is warranted. I worked at a dry cleaners back in high school, which also did shirt laundry. Men's shirts were $1.10 each to wash, dry, iron, and fold; women's were $2. However, the reason was because there was a machine that could press the standard men's shirts since they were straight (didn't have those darts that provide shape to women's shirts). Women's shirts had to be hand-pressed, which took considerably more time.
posted by barnoley at 6:31 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

I have never found myself in a situation with a woman in her underwear and thought "No, that just won’t do".

You are an enlightened exception, of which there are sadly all too few.

I’m not speaking about you here, because I’m sure you have exceptional taste in companions, but I often read these remarks about the way men are and think "where do these people live, and are all these women hanging out with Tyrell from Mr. Robot?". Because I grew up in an atmosphere much more like Elliot’s and did not hang out with frat guys or the like so it seems so foreign to me. I know guys who are assholes, but not assholes in the way I see described.

I don’t assume my experience is universal though.

(Yes, I liked that show quite a bit. I’m sorry if you haven’t seen it and my comments don’t make sense.)
posted by bongo_x at 6:54 PM on December 22, 2015

That’s why I would be careful about recommending safety razors for legs without having that experience. They’re great on my face, but I tried it on my head once. Once.

I use a safety razor on my legs and would never go back to anything else. I cut myself more with Mach whatevers because they dull so fast (and I can't stand the snot strip). However I use the "travel" safety razor because the shorter handle makes it easier to maneuver. The basic blades from Walgreen's aren't so insanely thin and deadly sharp as some of the premium blades, but they still last forever, are crazy cheap, shave really close without multiple passes, and don't clog the landfills with plastic crap.
posted by oneirodynia at 6:55 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

I haven't read the whole thread, but CTRL-F seems to indicate that no one has mentioned the one exception to this rule: energy bars. Luna Bars and the other bars of its ilk that are marketed toward women are way, way tastier than gender-neutral Cliff Bars and the more macho, dude-oriented protein bars.
posted by Aizkolari at 7:59 PM on December 22, 2015

If any ladies are looking to take the Double-Edge (aka Safety) Razor plunge, you could take a look at /r/ladyshavers on reddit.

It split off from the more man-focused (read: main reddit demo) subreddits of /r/wicked_edge and /r/wet_shavers. All three make the case that shaving begins and ends with skin care. Between the prep, lathering, multiple-pass shaving, and post-shave skin care, you're also spending more time than your standard lather/shave/rinse of the cartridge shave, but you can find your own balance of time vs. money with wet-shaving.

/r/Wicked_Edge is the oldest of the three subs, and its wiki has the most resources for people looking into getting into Double-Edge, Single-Edge, and Straight-Razor shaving, so their info page/sidebar has good links to starter kits (based on budget). W_E is the most circle-jerky when it comes to posting pics and links about the aforementioned RAD, Razor Acquisition Disorder, which puts lie to the claim that you'll definitely save money getting into wetshaving. For some shaving is part of the bathroom routine, but for Wicked_edgers, it's a hobby. (And if you search for it, there's some stuff about shaving other people with erotic intent.)

Like W_E, /r/Ladyshavers has a wiki on recommended products, products and shops to avoid, and so on.

Youtube has hundreds of videos on the topic of making lather and shaving the face and legs and pits, and, I'm a little surprised to see, shaving the junk-- not sure how much there is for men vs women there, but the videos I can see with my current search look relatively medical.

Metafilter: Shaving other people with erotic intent
posted by Sunburnt at 8:00 PM on December 22, 2015

Also, Mitchell & Webb's take on the advertising that seems to go to extra lengths to convince women in particular that they're inadequate, and sell the products that remedy those inadequacies.

Likewise there's the more recent Adam Ruins Everything, which dispels the marketing-generated myths about how dirty, smelly, unhealthy, and otherwise inadequate we are. I don't want to derail this into advertising, but the gendering of products comes partly from playing on the different fears that the different genders are socialized to have about their own status, attractiveness, and health, and so on. It's informative as hell; I learned more about hymens in the "Adam Ruins Sex" episode than I think I ever knew about them to begin with. Thanks to that episode, I'm going to refer to them as balloon arches from now on, if that's cool. (okay, probably not cool.)
posted by Sunburnt at 8:10 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

Squeak Attack: "I buy the pink ones, because I guess I have really small ear holes. Ear canals? I always found earplugs super-uncomfortable until I gave the smaller ones a try."

My canals are two different sizes. Given the choice I wear a Howard Leight Laser lite on one side and a Max Lite on the other. Though now that I'm looking at their web site I see they have a two sizes in one style foam plug. I'll have to see if I can get them.
posted by Mitheral at 8:26 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Is this the thread where I can vent that last summer I spent two hours in an upscale mall and discovered exactly zero women's business casual shirts that had no buttons, were not see-through, and had no strange bellybutton cutouts (?!?!)? Because I'm still extremely weirded out by the attempt to have a business casual navel window. I'd like to thank Ann Taylor Loft for having shirts that were actual shirts, if admittedly shirts that require the user to still wear an additional shirt inside them, like a little matryoshka doll of tank tops. It's a low bar when "vague structural integrity" is the winner, but there you go.

I don't want to buy the men's version. I want the women's version to be actual clothing.
posted by jetlagaddict at 8:49 PM on December 22, 2015 [20 favorites]

I don't want to buy the men's version. I want the women's version to be actual clothing

YES YES YES

I WANT TO GO TO A STORE AND BUY "CLASSIC" ADULT CLOTHING THAT FITS ME AND ISN'T EMBELISHED FUGLINESS TRENDOID RUFFLES SPARKLES CRAP THAT IMMEDIATELY LOOKS DATED
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 9:24 PM on December 22, 2015 [15 favorites]

Between the prep, lathering, multiple-pass shaving, and post-shave skin care, you're also spending more time than your standard lather/shave/rinse of the cartridge shave

Mmmmm. . . . . . . I think this is one of those cases where the hobbyist-obsessives are skewing the results. I just moved to a double-edge razor earlier this year, nothing special (think I bought it at Target), using whatever better-than-Barbasol shave lather I happen to pick up, and it doesn't take any more time than shaving with disposable cartridges.

It does give me a closer shave and more control even so - much easier to shave around moles and the facial hair I want to keep. The heavier razor is actually easier to maneuver. So I'd definitely encourage any women to give it a shot, you might actually like it better.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:32 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

Re: underwear. There was a thread on here not long ago - I think about women's clothes - and few women popped in to recommend boxer briefs, but men's boxer briefs, not the women's version. The next week I went to Target and bought a pair of men's Mossimo boxer briefs (because they were on sale and I could buy them in singles, to try out). And the second I put them on, I became a true believer. I don't wear them all the time yet (I only have two pair at this point), but I'm thinking about it. Finding underwear i like has been kind of lifelong chore for me, so I'm happy that a few people mentioned it in that thread.
posted by triggerfinger at 9:35 PM on December 22, 2015

Also, I just kinda realized that women's clothing is (in a horrible way) like the Platonic Ideal of planned obsolescence.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:35 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Is this the thread where I can vent that last summer I spent two hours in an upscale mall and discovered exactly zero women's business casual shirts that had no buttons, were not see-through, and had no strange bellybutton cutouts (?!?!)?

I WANT TO GO TO A STORE AND BUY "CLASSIC" ADULT CLOTHING THAT FITS ME AND ISN'T EMBELISHED FUGLINESS TRENDOID RUFFLES SPARKLES CRAP THAT IMMEDIATELY LOOKS DATED

Stein Mart? Quality to price ratio is pretty good and it’s pretty much only adult clothes.
posted by bongo_x at 9:52 PM on December 22, 2015

Because I'm still extremely weirded out by the attempt to have a business casual navel window.

That is my favoritest sentence, and sentiment, ever.

I don't want to buy the men's version. I want the women's version to be actual clothing.

And yes! It's silly to say that business-appropriate tops for women and men are the same thing, because many women have busts that require some reasonable consideration from the designer of the top. Darts and such are not silly woman things.
posted by jaguar at 9:55 PM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]

Darts and such are not silly woman things.

I mean, they are likely required by women, but the whole "required" aspect means that they are not "silly" or frivolous or vain, which are the normal dismissals issued to declare that women's necessities are mere fripperies.
posted by jaguar at 9:58 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

Between the prep, lathering, multiple-pass shaving, and post-shave skin care, you're also spending more time than your standard lather/shave/rinse of the cartridge shave

Mmmmm. . . . . . . I think this is one of those cases where the hobbyist-obsessives are skewing the results.

I agree. Safety razor is just as fast, cheaper, easier, and works better. A couple of things to know;

Safety razor (double edge) and straight razor (old timey barbershop) are two different things with a different level of skill and commitment required. They are called safety razors in contrast to straight razors.

The biggest thing is you have to adjust your style. With multi blade whatever razors you press down hard, with safety razors you don’t. You lightly drag the razor over your skin. If you press down hard you get burn and possibly cut. I rarely cut myself after learning how to use it.
posted by bongo_x at 9:59 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

I know you have to make compromises as a journalist, but this line in the piece: "In 1991, Ayres, a professor at Yale Law School, sent men and women to car dealerships across the Chicago area. He learned white women were charged 40 percent more than white men, supporting the stereotype that dealers assume women knew less about car values."

really reminded me why it's good to click on the links. First, Paquette rather lazily takes that 40% figure from a first-line mention in a methodologically stronger follow-up paper whose results she ignores, presumably because they're not in the first sentence. Then she misstates the original paper's finding -- the 40% figure actually refers to the markup, not the whole price of the car, so the white woman (there was only one, participating in multiple negotiations) wasn't charged 40% more, but the dealers did make 40% more profit off her compared to the white men in the study, an average difference of $142 of 1991 money. Finally, worst of all, she basically glosses over the race element of the study, and the fact that the white woman actually paid the second lowest average markup. The black male negotiator paid an average of $421 more than the white men, and the black woman paid an average of $875 more, or about 250% more. And yet this writer tells us what the white woman paid and claims it tells us how dealers view "women", in general. I REALLY HATE THE WAY SOME PEOPLE THINK ABOUT THE INTERSECTION OF GENDER AND RACE.

(Interestingly, the follow-up paper, where the pool of negotiators is expanded a bit, finds that "of all the tester types black males clearly fared the worst, paying an extra $962 over white males on initial offers and $1132 on final offers, after controlling for exogenous variables. These coefficients are highly statistically significant - 6 to 9 times their standard errors. Dealers' initial and final offers to black females were roughly $470 and $446, about 4%, higher than to white males. These coefficients are again highly significant in all the regressions. The disparate treatment of white females, in comparison, is less pronounced and statistically less significant. Dealers' initial and final offers to white females were roughly $200 more than to white males, about a 2% additional markup - a difference, however, that is not statistically significant at the 5 percent level." While the higher profits made off the black women are attributed (for various game theory reasons) to dealer perceptions of their willingness to haggle, one very sinister-sounding line suggests that "The sellers' slow and small concessions to black males are consistent with the hypothesis that sellers enjoyed extracting dollars from black males twice as much as extracting dollars from white males". Shudder.)
posted by two or three cars parked under the stars at 10:04 PM on December 22, 2015 [15 favorites]

Hmm, yes, I agree in many ways, however, as a man of smaller dimensions, I have discovered that it is often difficult for me to find things like socks & shoes in the men's section that actually fit. A sock that fits a range of sizes that is effectively most sizes is actually a sock for the largest of that range. When I buy women's socks, I am no longer at the bottom of the range. In shoes, they theoretically make my size, but the theory falls apart when the fact is that no one stocks the smallest sizes. Luckily I tend to prefer an outdoorsy or casual style that is often very similar in men's & women's foot gear. As an extra added bonus (or perhaps a sad note of despair) I have discovered no tendency to grow larger breasts.
posted by evilDoug at 10:10 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Oh how I wish I could wear men's clothes. Sadly with a waist/hip difference of 11.5" and a 36J bra size, it's not so fucking likely.
posted by KathrynT at 10:58 PM on December 22, 2015 [7 favorites]

If you think boys/men aren't product-conscious, try getting a group of 10-year-old boys to accept a pink anything.

When my son was 10 (and right up through high school), he would proudly represent with a pink polo shirt or what-have-you. Like his father, he understood that his manhood was not dependent on what others thought of him.

(Unfortunately, as an adult, he was quite chagrined to find himself driving his mother's pink car ... )
posted by oheso at 3:33 AM on December 23, 2015

>>I have never found myself in a situation with a woman in her underwear and thought "No, that just won’t do".

>You are an enlightened exception, of which there are sadly all too few.

"Enlightened" may be my favorite new euphemism.
posted by one weird trick at 4:48 AM on December 23, 2015 [4 favorites]

"Enlightened" may be my favorite new euphemism.

"That's quite the enlightenment you have there."

Love it!
posted by Dysk at 6:09 AM on December 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

I'm female. I work as a gardener. My work clothing is almost all purchased in the men's department of various stores with the exception of undergarments. Since I spend most of my life at work, I only spend a day or two a week not in work clothing. I tend to just keep wearing the work pants during the weekend. This worked quite nicely for many years until me and the +1 decided to reproduce.

I'm in my third trimester right now and making things work with men's work overalls - you can buy them based on leg length and diameter so I own lined overalls that are 38x30. However on the weekends, I'm wearing maternity jeans.

There are butt pockets which don't fit my phone and don't entirely fit my keys and definitely don't fit a wallet. The front pockets are entirely cosmetic - no, it isn't just sewn shut, there's no pocket structure there, not even a vestigial little pocket just for fun. I hate having to carry everything in my backpack - I don't do purses. There's a clear desire for women's clothing with pockets that aren't tiny or non-existent - why is this need not being met?

There is also no such thing as maternity workpants. There is no such thing as maternity snowpants (we're responsible for snow removal, if it ever snows this winter).

The selection of workboots (or hiking boots or hunting boots - there are a bunch of categories that would theoretically work for me) that fit me in a brick and mortar store is laughable; I'm not paying more for pink crap with no insulation or waterproofing. I generally have to try on boots of various brands to figure out the sizing and then order online. I've gotten lucky a few times with small men's sizes being on sale and will occasionally check out the larger youth sizes.

Shopping for those overalls I dealt with three salespeople in a store that sells work clothing and some other clothing: first guy started talking to my husband and even after I corrected him he still continued to address my husband, second woman didn't know her stock, and third guy knew his stock but kept trying to steer me to the lightweight overalls even after I explained what I did at work and how quickly I wore through pants.

I'd almost be willing to pay more for the same stuff if it existed in equivalent form and fit me vaguely reasonably and had @#%$% pockets.
posted by sciencegeek at 6:24 AM on December 23, 2015 [7 favorites]

Also, I came out to my hair stylist recently, who owns her own salon (and thus sets her own prices). She gave me the exact same haircut, with squared off sideburns, and charged me $15 less. If I didn't like the cut so much I would have dropped her just for that.

*bursts into flames*

This is, in fact, why I stick with my current hairdresser (even though I did not like my last haircut with her) BECAUSE after cutting my hair shorter than my husband's and using less product than a hairdresser does with his hair, she walked me to the counter and told the cashier to ring me up at the cheaper men's price.

Again, this is the background radiation of women's life. I don't know how we're all not so much more exhausted than we are.
posted by crush-onastick at 7:04 AM on December 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

> I think this is one of those cases where the hobbyist-obsessives are skewing the results.

Okay, fair point. But a couple different passes can be the difference between a plenty-good-for-work shave and a shave so good they call it BBF: Baby's Butt Face.
posted by Sunburnt at 7:59 AM on December 23, 2015

Even if I weren't trans I would still buy men's pants because POCKETS. I really had no idea how much better they are. I could stuff a ferret in my chinos.

Aside - one of my pockets has a smaller pocket at the bottom. Not like a watch pocket found on some jeans, but like a hidden compartment. Perhaps 2 inches by 2. What the hell is that for?
posted by desjardins at 8:10 AM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

What the hell is that for?

Rings.

When you're working with machinery, it's really dangerous to wear rings. Don't Google search for "degloving" unless you have a strong stomach. Folks who wear gloves a lot often want to remove rings as well, police, emts, doctors, etc... I remove my rings when I'm doing lab work. Don't want to tear the glove and/or offer a place for chemicals to be trapped against my skin.
posted by bonehead at 8:20 AM on December 23, 2015 [6 favorites]

That's a pocket for your keys to get slightly stuck in so you stand there trying to pull out your fob for the work elevator to no avail and then try jumping up and down so your pocket gets to the sensor level and that also doesn't work and then the elevator starts moving, and you just ride it to the top floor where all the snooty oil industry lobbyists stare at you for being in their space.

I mean hypothetically.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:22 AM on December 23, 2015 [8 favorites]

What the hell is that for?

There wasn't anything about it in my received wisdom packet. I think it's actually the dress pant version of a watch pocket, but after all my coins kept ending up there (in pants with that sort of pocket), I decided it must be for coins. In a pocket without the special inner pocket they do tend to jingle a lot when I walk, and the inner pocket mitigates that a lot.

Practically speaking: if I were trying to use my camera in very cold weather I would keep my spare battery in there instead of coins, since the fabric would protect the battery terminals from my keys, and my body heat would give my batteries a chance of working.
posted by fedward at 8:24 AM on December 23, 2015

As a guy who's very slight, and exceptionally cheap, this goes in the opposite direction, too. Since the mid-90's I've bought women's chinos/slacks, women's shirts, women's shoes, whatever I could that didn't have spangles on it (even then, I've cut them off, too). As I shop almost exclusively consignment and it's analogues, I noticed that sometimes the tags would still be on them - I was gobsmacked by the prices. So women will make 75% what men will, but they pay 10% more for essentially the same clothes? Dick move, guys, dick move.

Oh, pink and pastel not your thing? Rit dye to the rescue. Red and black turn that pink fairly brown. The same combo (but with less black than red) eventually washes a purple to a nice rusty maroon. Brown into the pastel green turns it kinda mossy - experiment and never be afraid to just Nope right out of a color and dye it black. Works for shoes, too.

Between this and the thread earlier this week about the moral spectrum of penny-pinching MeFi feels like it's been camping in my brain lately, and I love the depth of discussion and exposure to alternate viewpoints. Thanks, all!
posted by eclectist at 9:27 AM on December 23, 2015

Oh man, I am so going to buy some briefs and try them out. Hope it doesn't freak out my husband too much.
posted by emjaybee at 10:41 AM on December 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

I think most people were referring to boxer briefs. You probably know the difference, but in case you didn’t, they’re different.
posted by bongo_x at 12:22 PM on December 23, 2015

Interestingly, in my field of specialty (motorcycle apparel), there isn't a price penalty for women. There's plenty of pink stuff available but the prices for women's gear are right in line with men's gear. About 14% of motorcycle owners are women, and more women are co-riders, so the market for women's equipment is large and growing. Some manufacturers have a small selection of items for women, but mostly they're on-par in terms of price and quality with the men's offerings. For the most part, the motorcycle industry has avoided the "shrink it and pink it" approach of other outdoor industries. And I have no idea why.
posted by workerant at 12:51 PM on December 23, 2015

Women bikers aren't generally assumed to be hugely into pink or cutesy - might have something to do with it.
posted by Dysk at 1:15 PM on December 23, 2015

What the hell is that for?

There are two types - there's the squarish ring/coin pocket as mentioned, and the taller, thinner type in the pocket bag but along the pant outseam. That one helps keep pens parallel to your thigh, rather than slowly working their way perpendicular and wearing a hole in the bottom of the pocket if you're cycling.

If you can sew, a stitch line in any bagged pocket (including the back pocket on trousers) will keep your phone upright as well.
posted by a halcyon day at 1:35 PM on December 23, 2015

What? Not only do men get pockets, but they have specialty pockets too!? I had no idea.
posted by sweetmarie at 3:09 PM on December 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

Some manufacturers have a small selection of items for women, but mostly they're on-par in terms of price and quality with the men's offerings. For the most part, the motorcycle industry has avoided the "shrink it and pink it" approach of other outdoor industries.

This was definitely not always the case, though I am glad to hear that things have improved.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:53 PM on December 23, 2015

What the hell is that for?

OH! I have had some pants with those and couldn't figure out what they were for. It did push me over the edge to thinking that that model of cargo pants might have TOO MANY POCKETS. (I know, I know. But, there's cargo pockets, pockets sewn on top of the cargo pockets (mostly too small for anything useful but sometimes I stick pencils in them), front pockets and back pockets, and then after I'd been wearing the pants for a couple of weeks I found the extra inner right hand front pocket and was like "whoah. extra extra extra pockets!")
posted by rmd1023 at 8:22 PM on December 23, 2015

Stein Mart? Quality to price ratio is pretty good and it’s pretty much only adult clothes.

Omg, until now I've always assumed Stein Mart was a kosher grocery store. *the more you know*
posted by littlesq at 7:05 PM on December 24, 2015

It’s basically a store for people over 30 with no kids. They have some home goods and such, but it’s mostly adult clothes, no kids stuff at all. Seemingly half the store is house brands, and the house brands are of surprising quality for the price, with a wide variety of styles.
posted by bongo_x at 12:19 PM on December 25, 2015

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