The Destruction of Workers' Compensation in the US
December 22, 2015 1:01 PM Subscribe
Over the past 25 years, the giant meatpacking company Tyson Foods has taken a lead in pushing for changes in workers’ comp in state after state—often to the detriment of workers. ... Tyson’s story also tells a broader one about American politics: How time after time, one determined company, facing a challenge to its profits, can bend government and the law to its will. Over the past year, ProPublica and NPR have examined how many states have been quietly dismantling their workers’ comp systems.
Even in Iowa, Tyson was far from the only business bending the governor’s ear. But unlike most companies, Tyson has asserted an unusually high level of control over its workplace-injury program, giving it a nitty-gritty perspective on issues other employers leave to insurance companies.... A look back on the past quarter-century reveals that Tyson has influenced workers’ comp much in the same way it re-shaped the poultry industry, famously steering every step of production from the breeding of the birds to the Chicken McNugget.
Even in Iowa, Tyson was far from the only business bending the governor’s ear. But unlike most companies, Tyson has asserted an unusually high level of control over its workplace-injury program, giving it a nitty-gritty perspective on issues other employers leave to insurance companies.... A look back on the past quarter-century reveals that Tyson has influenced workers’ comp much in the same way it re-shaped the poultry industry, famously steering every step of production from the breeding of the birds to the Chicken McNugget.
Thanks, asperity! Totally missed that.
posted by Bella Donna at 1:31 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Bella Donna at 1:31 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
The whole story is a combination of appalling and depressing. That said, this bit at the top jumped out at me:
Within weeks of his victory, Branstad demanded Godfrey’s resignation. When Godfrey refused, the new governor did the harshest thing in his power: He cut Godfrey’s salary by more than 30 percent.
Is there something to stop Godfrey at this point from making life hard for Tyson at every chance he can get?
posted by Kikujiro's Summer at 1:50 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Within weeks of his victory, Branstad demanded Godfrey’s resignation. When Godfrey refused, the new governor did the harshest thing in his power: He cut Godfrey’s salary by more than 30 percent.
Is there something to stop Godfrey at this point from making life hard for Tyson at every chance he can get?
posted by Kikujiro's Summer at 1:50 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Is it just me, or are things feeling more hopeless than usual?
posted by schmod at 1:50 PM on December 22, 2015 [20 favorites]
posted by schmod at 1:50 PM on December 22, 2015 [20 favorites]
Tyson has influenced workers’ comp much in the same way it re-shaped the poultry industry, famously steering every step of production
From this time last year: How Tyson Foods Kills Small Rural Towns: "In Tyson’s case, the company has swallowed all the businesses that used to make up a small-town economy. It owns the hatchery, the feed mill and the slaughterhouse. It owns the food processing plant where raw meat is packaged or cooked and boxed into ready-to-eat meals, and it owns the trucks that deliver its products to stores and restaurants. While Tyson doesn’t directly own most of the farms that supply it with animals, it controls them through the use of restrictive contracts (read on for more on these). The best way to picture Tyson’s vertical integration is to imagine the broad network of small businesses that were once the backbone of rural communities sucked into a single, towering silo. That silo is Tyson Foods."
And before anyone asks about walking away from Tyson: "When a farmer is financially abused, he or she often doesn’t have the option to work with a different chicken company, because Tyson and other firms operate in locations where they are the only game in town."
posted by MonkeyToes at 1:53 PM on December 22, 2015 [19 favorites]
From this time last year: How Tyson Foods Kills Small Rural Towns: "In Tyson’s case, the company has swallowed all the businesses that used to make up a small-town economy. It owns the hatchery, the feed mill and the slaughterhouse. It owns the food processing plant where raw meat is packaged or cooked and boxed into ready-to-eat meals, and it owns the trucks that deliver its products to stores and restaurants. While Tyson doesn’t directly own most of the farms that supply it with animals, it controls them through the use of restrictive contracts (read on for more on these). The best way to picture Tyson’s vertical integration is to imagine the broad network of small businesses that were once the backbone of rural communities sucked into a single, towering silo. That silo is Tyson Foods."
And before anyone asks about walking away from Tyson: "When a farmer is financially abused, he or she often doesn’t have the option to work with a different chicken company, because Tyson and other firms operate in locations where they are the only game in town."
posted by MonkeyToes at 1:53 PM on December 22, 2015 [19 favorites]
> "When workers are injured, they’re usually sent to a Tyson nurse at the plant. Their claims are processed by Tyson adjusters. And in many states, the company even has its own managed-care unit, handpicking the doctors that workers can see ..."
St. Peter don't ya call me 'cause I can't walk,
I owe my legs to the company doc.
posted by kyrademon at 2:02 PM on December 22, 2015 [40 favorites]
St. Peter don't ya call me 'cause I can't walk,
I owe my legs to the company doc.
posted by kyrademon at 2:02 PM on December 22, 2015 [40 favorites]
The games employers play with workers' comp are infuriating, and it seems like there's very little most of us can do to improve matters when it's clear that these employers are outright buying the legislators:
As the bill was being drafted and debated, Tyson’s lobbyist treated key lawmakers to dozens of meals at steakhouses and other fine restaurants around the capital, according to expenditure reports. The six members who ultimately hammered out the final bill received 21 meals over the course of three months. The lobbyist even gave one a gift from “God Father Cigars.”
Learn as much as you can about workplace safety, and put it into practice in your life wherever possible. Encourage your coworkers to take care of themselves while working, and back them up with supervisors if that's an option for you. If you know any young people just starting their working lives, encourage them to learn about their rights and how to do their jobs safely, even if proper safety training isn't required by their employers. And hell, it's winter for many of us: walk like a penguin to avoid slipping.
None of that makes up for the fact that our employers aren't required to compensate us adequately for injuries we incur working for them, but protecting ourselves and each other as best we can until the laws are changed is a good idea regardless. When the laws actually force employers to pay for the harm they inflict, magic happens: our employers work harder to keep us safe.
posted by asperity at 2:12 PM on December 22, 2015 [18 favorites]
As the bill was being drafted and debated, Tyson’s lobbyist treated key lawmakers to dozens of meals at steakhouses and other fine restaurants around the capital, according to expenditure reports. The six members who ultimately hammered out the final bill received 21 meals over the course of three months. The lobbyist even gave one a gift from “God Father Cigars.”
Learn as much as you can about workplace safety, and put it into practice in your life wherever possible. Encourage your coworkers to take care of themselves while working, and back them up with supervisors if that's an option for you. If you know any young people just starting their working lives, encourage them to learn about their rights and how to do their jobs safely, even if proper safety training isn't required by their employers. And hell, it's winter for many of us: walk like a penguin to avoid slipping.
None of that makes up for the fact that our employers aren't required to compensate us adequately for injuries we incur working for them, but protecting ourselves and each other as best we can until the laws are changed is a good idea regardless. When the laws actually force employers to pay for the harm they inflict, magic happens: our employers work harder to keep us safe.
posted by asperity at 2:12 PM on December 22, 2015 [18 favorites]
You know, I'll bet if those judges were corporate employees, they would have voted different on citizens united. Oh, wait, maybe not!
posted by valkane at 2:12 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by valkane at 2:12 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Is it just me, or are things feeling more hopeless than usual?
Nope, things are just hopeless and our political system is too broken to fix them.
posted by Drinky Die at 2:44 PM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Nope, things are just hopeless and our political system is too broken to fix them.
posted by Drinky Die at 2:44 PM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
For sure, many corporations and so too public officials would love to get rid of compensation, but then the abuse by those using the system, ie, the workers, is horrendous, and that in some measure is why there is antipathy toward this compensation...Who reading this post can not recall or know first hand of workers abusing the system, getting great compensation for horrible injuries only to see some of those workers doing things that indicate that their injuries were fake, or not nearly as bad as claimed.
posted by Postroad at 2:45 PM on December 22, 2015
posted by Postroad at 2:45 PM on December 22, 2015
> "Who reading this post can not recall or know first hand ..."
I have no idea what the actual statistics are on this, but since you ask about first hand knowledge -- me; I don't know or personally know of anyone who has ever done this.
posted by kyrademon at 2:49 PM on December 22, 2015 [37 favorites]
I have no idea what the actual statistics are on this, but since you ask about first hand knowledge -- me; I don't know or personally know of anyone who has ever done this.
posted by kyrademon at 2:49 PM on December 22, 2015 [37 favorites]
Someone I work with was injured on the job. Her supervisor insisted she apply for worker's comp, which then refused to pay her bills. If she had used her own insurance, it would have been covered, but as it was, she was stuck with it.
posted by acrasis at 2:50 PM on December 22, 2015
posted by acrasis at 2:50 PM on December 22, 2015
I can't recall or know of workers cheating the system. I can recall in my years of social work atleast 40 people I know who should have gotten workers comp but didn't.
Pain is invisible. Mental health is invisible. You can't tell from a picture what it cost to get to that place.
posted by AlexiaSky at 2:52 PM on December 22, 2015 [16 favorites]
Pain is invisible. Mental health is invisible. You can't tell from a picture what it cost to get to that place.
posted by AlexiaSky at 2:52 PM on December 22, 2015 [16 favorites]
Who reading this post can not recall or know first hand of workers abusing the system, getting great compensation for horrible injuries only to see some of those workers doing things that indicate that their injuries were fake, or not nearly as bad as claimed.
I can't, and I spent a couple of years interviewing people seeking help with workplace injuries. There were certainly a few people who tried to make claims for minor or nonexistent injuries, but those people didn't actually get the enormous sums you suggest. Usually they got nothing, same as a lot of the people with real, disabling injuries.
posted by asperity at 2:53 PM on December 22, 2015 [16 favorites]
I can't, and I spent a couple of years interviewing people seeking help with workplace injuries. There were certainly a few people who tried to make claims for minor or nonexistent injuries, but those people didn't actually get the enormous sums you suggest. Usually they got nothing, same as a lot of the people with real, disabling injuries.
posted by asperity at 2:53 PM on December 22, 2015 [16 favorites]
Oh, and I definitely know people who *should* have gotten worker's comp. A very close friend of mine had her jaw broken in a workplace accident. She still has problems from it.
posted by kyrademon at 2:54 PM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by kyrademon at 2:54 PM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Who reading this post can not recall or know first hand of workers abusing the system
Me.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:54 PM on December 22, 2015 [18 favorites]
Me.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:54 PM on December 22, 2015 [18 favorites]
Who reading this post can not recall or know first hand of workers abusing the system, getting great compensation for horrible injuries only to see some of those workers doing things that indicate that their injuries were fake, or not nearly as bad as claimed.
This sounds like the grossly exaggerated claims of welfare fraud. Me. I don't know anyone. Saw some exposes on tabloid tv "current affair" shows now and again, I guess. But really, who gives a shit? So some tiny minority are cheating the system, getting something they don't deserve. Who gives a shit? Really, why do you care so much? What's it got to do with you? Why would you want to make that the excuse for not providing proper care for those who do need it?
posted by Jimbob at 2:56 PM on December 22, 2015 [54 favorites]
This sounds like the grossly exaggerated claims of welfare fraud. Me. I don't know anyone. Saw some exposes on tabloid tv "current affair" shows now and again, I guess. But really, who gives a shit? So some tiny minority are cheating the system, getting something they don't deserve. Who gives a shit? Really, why do you care so much? What's it got to do with you? Why would you want to make that the excuse for not providing proper care for those who do need it?
posted by Jimbob at 2:56 PM on December 22, 2015 [54 favorites]
but then the abuse by those using the system, ie, the workers, is horrendous
Citation please.
posted by tocts at 3:00 PM on December 22, 2015 [29 favorites]
Citation please.
posted by tocts at 3:00 PM on December 22, 2015 [29 favorites]
A friend of mine got injured on the job, and the whole system of going to a special doc who isn't your doc to verify you're injured ... it's an adversarial system designed to discourage you from reporting your injury. If this stuff was covered by your own regular insurer I suspect the big insurers would go after the big injurers.
posted by zippy at 3:13 PM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by zippy at 3:13 PM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Who reading this post can not recall or know first hand of workers abusing the system,
Me, ever, never. I know plenty who did not get the help they deserved though.
but then the abuse by those using the system, ie, the workers, is horrendous
Is there a word for that moment when someone so perfectly illustrates why we are all fucked?
posted by Cosine at 3:16 PM on December 22, 2015 [35 favorites]
Me, ever, never. I know plenty who did not get the help they deserved though.
but then the abuse by those using the system, ie, the workers, is horrendous
Is there a word for that moment when someone so perfectly illustrates why we are all fucked?
posted by Cosine at 3:16 PM on December 22, 2015 [35 favorites]
In Illinois, something like 97% of contested cases are decided in favor of the worker; employers barely ever bother to contest because the hearing board is CRAZY biased. We have among the highest workers comp rates in the US and reform of the system is a bipartisan, union-backed issue, because the handful of cheats who work the system cost A LOT and make it harder to pay out adequately for people who are genuinely injured. The cheats tend to be frequent fliers who cheat the system over and over, but in Illinois it's almost impossible to nail them. I saw one guy who claimed total disability, TOOK THE SAME JOB AT ANOTHER EMPLOYER ACROSS STATE LINES WHILE RECEIVING COMP, and still won his Illinois case before the board (it got appealed to real court and he will end up in big trouble, it's just illustrative how little the IL workers comp hearing board gives a shit). We had an employee who got MAGICALLY unlikely injuries every time he got a reprimand for serious misbehavior on the job -- five times in five years -- basically to make it difficult to fire him for misconduct. Five years after finally being fired (for assault) he still had six lawsuits pending against his old employer. I saw one where a guy slipped on ice at home, hurt his back, filed for workers comp with that in there, and it just got approved. He wasn't dishonest (his friend told him, well you got hurt and you HAVE a job, even if it wasn't ON the job, so you might as well file and see what they say), the Illinois workers comp people just can't be arsed to read the paperwork ever.
Anyway. Not in favor of "strip workers rights" or "fuck you got mine" reform, but competent oversight of the system is a bipartisan goal around here to drop costs for everyone and speed up payouts for everyone and catch the small number of bad actors costing the system disproportionate amounts of money.
95% of comp claims were totally routine and you just wince and go "youch, I'm glad she's okay after that!" and are glad to have the coverage to pay. The 5% that are cray-cray are pretty brazen, though, and do tend to stick in your mind. The ones I remember are mostly the brazenly insane cheats, and the very few where people have HORRIFIC but unlikely injuries where you're like, wow, you are the unluckiest man on earth. It is easy to forget the 95% of the time where the system works exactly as intended and the injury did not appear to occur on the set of a Marx Brothers movie.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:19 PM on December 22, 2015 [16 favorites]
Anyway. Not in favor of "strip workers rights" or "fuck you got mine" reform, but competent oversight of the system is a bipartisan goal around here to drop costs for everyone and speed up payouts for everyone and catch the small number of bad actors costing the system disproportionate amounts of money.
95% of comp claims were totally routine and you just wince and go "youch, I'm glad she's okay after that!" and are glad to have the coverage to pay. The 5% that are cray-cray are pretty brazen, though, and do tend to stick in your mind. The ones I remember are mostly the brazenly insane cheats, and the very few where people have HORRIFIC but unlikely injuries where you're like, wow, you are the unluckiest man on earth. It is easy to forget the 95% of the time where the system works exactly as intended and the injury did not appear to occur on the set of a Marx Brothers movie.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:19 PM on December 22, 2015 [16 favorites]
Is there a word for that moment when someone so perfectly illustrates why we are all fucked?
Fallanzeichen
posted by Meatbomb at 3:21 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Fallanzeichen
posted by Meatbomb at 3:21 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Who reading this post can not recall or know first hand of workers abusing the system
The same rationale is employed as an argument to dismantle every public benefit program from food stamps, to housing, to Social Security Disability. Nearly every credible study finds that the "waste, fraud and abuse" is actually only a tiny portion of benefits paid. The burden of proof needs to be on those alleging fraud in the system. So, yea, citation, please.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:22 PM on December 22, 2015 [44 favorites]
The same rationale is employed as an argument to dismantle every public benefit program from food stamps, to housing, to Social Security Disability. Nearly every credible study finds that the "waste, fraud and abuse" is actually only a tiny portion of benefits paid. The burden of proof needs to be on those alleging fraud in the system. So, yea, citation, please.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:22 PM on December 22, 2015 [44 favorites]
I saw one guy who claimed total disability, TOOK THE SAME JOB AT ANOTHER EMPLOYER ACROSS STATE LINES WHILE RECEIVING COMP, and still won his Illinois case before the board (it got appealed to real court and he will end up in big trouble, it's just illustrative how little the IL workers comp hearing board gives a shit).
It sounds like the system is working as intended then if he will end up in real trouble. The employer having to appeal up to a real court and be a major hassle instead of the employee is not a bug, it's a feature.
posted by Talez at 3:31 PM on December 22, 2015 [24 favorites]
It sounds like the system is working as intended then if he will end up in real trouble. The employer having to appeal up to a real court and be a major hassle instead of the employee is not a bug, it's a feature.
posted by Talez at 3:31 PM on December 22, 2015 [24 favorites]
"food stamps, to housing, to Social Security Disability. Nearly every credible study finds that the "waste, fraud and abuse" is actually only a tiny portion of benefits paid."
With the caveat that food stamp fraud costs the same as food stamp legit use, so a small amount of fraud in the system isn't a big deal or worth going after. However, since Workers Comp has variable payouts, your frequent-flying fraudsters are filing for $350,000 claims, while your routine claims are averaging around $20k. So a small numerical burden on the system is disproportionately expensive, and actually going after (large-scale) fraud is more important.
Again that's not what Tyson's doing and I don't want to carry water for them, but there are legit reasons to be concerned about fraud in the system. I think it's important to be clear about that or else it leaves decent employers who have faced large-scale fraudsters with radical anti-WC lobbyists as the only people supporting their needs. It's better if we can get unions, employers, lawyers, doctors, etc., all at the table and say "okay, what fraud would be cost-effective and time-efficient to crack down on so that we will free up money and time for legit injuries?"
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:33 PM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
With the caveat that food stamp fraud costs the same as food stamp legit use, so a small amount of fraud in the system isn't a big deal or worth going after. However, since Workers Comp has variable payouts, your frequent-flying fraudsters are filing for $350,000 claims, while your routine claims are averaging around $20k. So a small numerical burden on the system is disproportionately expensive, and actually going after (large-scale) fraud is more important.
Again that's not what Tyson's doing and I don't want to carry water for them, but there are legit reasons to be concerned about fraud in the system. I think it's important to be clear about that or else it leaves decent employers who have faced large-scale fraudsters with radical anti-WC lobbyists as the only people supporting their needs. It's better if we can get unions, employers, lawyers, doctors, etc., all at the table and say "okay, what fraud would be cost-effective and time-efficient to crack down on so that we will free up money and time for legit injuries?"
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:33 PM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
A somewhat related previously; as I read this post over lunch I was reminded of Amcare's role as the first responders for Amazon's warehouse workers.
I think I'll be adding a skepticism multiplier to any employer with similar vertical integration of medical care when evaluating their claims about laborers (not that I had a great deal of confidence in the Tysons and Amazons of the world to begin with).
posted by Matt Oneiros at 3:33 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think I'll be adding a skepticism multiplier to any employer with similar vertical integration of medical care when evaluating their claims about laborers (not that I had a great deal of confidence in the Tysons and Amazons of the world to begin with).
posted by Matt Oneiros at 3:33 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
"It sounds like the system is working as intended then if he will end up in real trouble."
No; evidence of his simultaneous employment was presented to the board that is specifically tasked with adjudicating this, and they simply decided not to look at the evidence. There's no reason it should go to civil trial and cost hundreds of thousands of taxpayer dollars when there is an arbitration board specifically to adjudicate such claims.
(He worked for a public employer, BTW, so he's getting fake WC, costing $250k and counting in legal fees to the public entity, AND costing court time and money now.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:37 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
No; evidence of his simultaneous employment was presented to the board that is specifically tasked with adjudicating this, and they simply decided not to look at the evidence. There's no reason it should go to civil trial and cost hundreds of thousands of taxpayer dollars when there is an arbitration board specifically to adjudicate such claims.
(He worked for a public employer, BTW, so he's getting fake WC, costing $250k and counting in legal fees to the public entity, AND costing court time and money now.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 3:37 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Clearly it is in the interests of the insurance industry to stand firmly against disability fraud, since they are the ones that will have to pay out the claims. Here are the statistics on fraud they cite in their battle against disability fraud. The dollar amount for faked claims is substantial.
posted by Postroad at 3:39 PM on December 22, 2015
posted by Postroad at 3:39 PM on December 22, 2015
I've worked at a lot of different companies in a lot of different industries, and in my experience there are basically two reasons for an employer to pay any attention to your safety. Either they've got some sort of external requirement for safety training or injury prevention, or you're the squeaky wheel who insists that your employers allow you to make your work safe.
The external requirement can take a few forms. You can see from the FPP exactly how much help OSHA or most workers' compensation insurers are: not much. Another option is oversight from some other governmental agency (applicable in certain industries only: FDA for pharmaceutical companies, for example) that has its own requirements for inspections. A third option is contractual requirements for some industries: a number of construction contracts include company safety records as part of bid packages, and failing to have an adequate safety record or appropriate training means your company's not eligible for those contracts. Higher workers' compensation insurance premiums for unsafe employers are good, but not usually sufficient to get them to do safety right.
Being vigilant about our own safety is necessary no matter what our employers are doing (and is part of any safety training program), but the effectiveness of being the squeaky wheel varies widely. If you're seen by your employer as easily replaceable, good luck getting them to agree to do anything to help you prevent injury. If you're seen as more valuable, you'll have better results, but even so, the less any accommodations you ask for inconvenience your employer, the better. Sometimes it's easier to try to make your own changes to your workflow to avoid injury on your own dime than it is to get your employer to help. (This is a better option than not making any changes, FWIW. It's not like you're going to get less hurt if your employer pretends your unsafe workplace isn't a problem.)
It's really easy for those of us currently working cushy office jobs to avoid thinking about workplace safety issues, but see the FPP: These changes have had a comparable effect to cutting benefits, excluding people whose doctors say have legitimate work injuries—especially the costly musculoskeletal disorders like carpal tunnel syndrome that poultry workers are prone to. That's all of us typing and staring at computer screens for a living, too. (Though we're less likely to get horrifying infections if we get cut on the job, since papercuts are just not that scary.) Repetitive stress injuries are extremely difficult to get covered in most states, and difficult to fix even when you can get the medical care paid for.
posted by asperity at 3:40 PM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
The external requirement can take a few forms. You can see from the FPP exactly how much help OSHA or most workers' compensation insurers are: not much. Another option is oversight from some other governmental agency (applicable in certain industries only: FDA for pharmaceutical companies, for example) that has its own requirements for inspections. A third option is contractual requirements for some industries: a number of construction contracts include company safety records as part of bid packages, and failing to have an adequate safety record or appropriate training means your company's not eligible for those contracts. Higher workers' compensation insurance premiums for unsafe employers are good, but not usually sufficient to get them to do safety right.
Being vigilant about our own safety is necessary no matter what our employers are doing (and is part of any safety training program), but the effectiveness of being the squeaky wheel varies widely. If you're seen by your employer as easily replaceable, good luck getting them to agree to do anything to help you prevent injury. If you're seen as more valuable, you'll have better results, but even so, the less any accommodations you ask for inconvenience your employer, the better. Sometimes it's easier to try to make your own changes to your workflow to avoid injury on your own dime than it is to get your employer to help. (This is a better option than not making any changes, FWIW. It's not like you're going to get less hurt if your employer pretends your unsafe workplace isn't a problem.)
It's really easy for those of us currently working cushy office jobs to avoid thinking about workplace safety issues, but see the FPP: These changes have had a comparable effect to cutting benefits, excluding people whose doctors say have legitimate work injuries—especially the costly musculoskeletal disorders like carpal tunnel syndrome that poultry workers are prone to. That's all of us typing and staring at computer screens for a living, too. (Though we're less likely to get horrifying infections if we get cut on the job, since papercuts are just not that scary.) Repetitive stress injuries are extremely difficult to get covered in most states, and difficult to fix even when you can get the medical care paid for.
posted by asperity at 3:40 PM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
Postroad: Unless I missed something your link goes to a Google search... as search which includes the results of a study which state fraud rates of less than 2%... so there's that...
posted by Cosine at 3:43 PM on December 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by Cosine at 3:43 PM on December 22, 2015 [12 favorites]
Let me peer into the stock right-wing toolkit...
Welfare fraud is rampant.
Voter fraud is rampant.
Worker's comp fraud is rampant.
I can't see any more. My eyes have glazed over.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 3:50 PM on December 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
Welfare fraud is rampant.
Voter fraud is rampant.
Worker's comp fraud is rampant.
I can't see any more. My eyes have glazed over.
posted by Jessica Savitch's Coke Spoon at 3:50 PM on December 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
Here are the statistics on fraud they cite in their battle against disability fraud. The dollar amount for faked claims is substantial.
Well one of the links that came up was "The Myth of Workers' Compensation Fraud"...
The fact is that workers' comp claims are often investigated to death with private investigators running around following claimants to see how disabled they look as they try to live their lives. There is, of course, fraud, like with any insurance policy, but the solution to that is not to destroy the entire system for the vast majority of cases that aren't fraudulent.
The other issue is that caps on benefits are so low (especially once the lawyer you have to hire to fight the insurance company takes their cut) as compared with the damages people get in court for similar types of injuries (this is several years old, but the point still stands):
Well one of the links that came up was "The Myth of Workers' Compensation Fraud"...
The fact is that workers' comp claims are often investigated to death with private investigators running around following claimants to see how disabled they look as they try to live their lives. There is, of course, fraud, like with any insurance policy, but the solution to that is not to destroy the entire system for the vast majority of cases that aren't fraudulent.
The other issue is that caps on benefits are so low (especially once the lawyer you have to hire to fight the insurance company takes their cut) as compared with the damages people get in court for similar types of injuries (this is several years old, but the point still stands):
The survivors of three workers killed by the Tosco refinery explosion were awarded a total of $21 million in damages. The workers were not employees of Tosco but of a subcontractor at the site; thus they had the right to sue Tosco for negligence. In contrast, Steve Duncan was a Tosco employee. He survived by jumping off the tower while ablaze from the blast. His sole remedy is workers' compensation. As a result of falling some 60 feet, Duncan broke almost every bone in his body. He has had 24 surgeries to date, numerous skin grafts, and amputation of his fingers and a thumb on one hand. He is confined to a wheelchair; and has numerous metal pins sticking out from his knee and thigh.posted by zachlipton at 3:51 PM on December 22, 2015 [16 favorites]
He was earning more than $1,000 per week. Now, he gets $490 a week in temporary disability benefits. Even if he is totally, permanently disabled, this is the most he will ever get -- no cost of living raise and no lump sum payment. If he is found to be less than 100% permanently disabled -- even if marginally less, such as 99.75% disabled -- he will receive just $230 per week in permanent disability benefits -- and not for life, but for a finite period of time
Is it just me, or are things feeling more hopeless than usual?
Power has always been at the top, but it is getting more concentrated. Every last dime is being squeezed out of the poor and middle class and funneled upwards, and the rate seems to be increasing.
posted by cell divide at 3:52 PM on December 22, 2015 [15 favorites]
Power has always been at the top, but it is getting more concentrated. Every last dime is being squeezed out of the poor and middle class and funneled upwards, and the rate seems to be increasing.
posted by cell divide at 3:52 PM on December 22, 2015 [15 favorites]
The existence of some level of fraud is an argument for enforcement of existing law against fraudsters, not for the wholesale elimination or reduction of legitimate claims for benefits.
And the burden of proof should be higher than anecdotal evidence that "everybody knows" or the first Google search that comes to mind.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:55 PM on December 22, 2015 [26 favorites]
And the burden of proof should be higher than anecdotal evidence that "everybody knows" or the first Google search that comes to mind.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:55 PM on December 22, 2015 [26 favorites]
I also think there is the myth that perpetuating workmans comp fraud is easy.
You have to find a job, use your social, work there, and then file a claim. Once the claim is filed you need doctors appointments, you have to keep up with paperwork, you need to be able to read it aswell. You need to show up at any reviews and appeals. It is astonishingly difficult. Especially without income!
posted by AlexiaSky at 3:57 PM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
You have to find a job, use your social, work there, and then file a claim. Once the claim is filed you need doctors appointments, you have to keep up with paperwork, you need to be able to read it aswell. You need to show up at any reviews and appeals. It is astonishingly difficult. Especially without income!
posted by AlexiaSky at 3:57 PM on December 22, 2015 [3 favorites]
I ran a small business for several years, during which time there were several worker injuries, and not a single workers comp claim. I *encouraged* my employees to get treatment and send me the bill, as the law provides. But they didn't.
In one case, a falling box damaged a worker's eye, but because she felt the injury was her fault, she said it felt wrong to send me the bill. She didn't have insurance, so she didn't seek care. I don't know if her eye is damaged to this day, but I suspect it is.
In other cases, employees simply used their own health insurance, without telling the hospital that the injury was sustained at work.
I have also known people who have been seriously injured at work who did not file claims because they were afraid of employer retaliation. I hope that was not the case here—I did what I could to encourage people to seek care—but I have no way of knowing.
As long as workers are not reliably invoking their right to reimbursement for job-related injury, we should vigorously oppose any effort to circumscribe or weaken the regulation. My workers comp premiums were about 3.5% of payroll. If, as some linked articles have suggested, 2% of workers comp claims are fraudulent, then even if the fraudulent claims are 5x more expensive than the legit ones, it would only save at most 10% on premiums, lowering mine from 3.5% to 3.2%.
Am I really supposed to care about that? Is that really a reasonable way to save such a tiny amount of money? I say fuck that. People need medical security way more than employers need a few basis points of payroll savings.
posted by andrewpcone at 4:05 PM on December 22, 2015 [48 favorites]
In one case, a falling box damaged a worker's eye, but because she felt the injury was her fault, she said it felt wrong to send me the bill. She didn't have insurance, so she didn't seek care. I don't know if her eye is damaged to this day, but I suspect it is.
In other cases, employees simply used their own health insurance, without telling the hospital that the injury was sustained at work.
I have also known people who have been seriously injured at work who did not file claims because they were afraid of employer retaliation. I hope that was not the case here—I did what I could to encourage people to seek care—but I have no way of knowing.
As long as workers are not reliably invoking their right to reimbursement for job-related injury, we should vigorously oppose any effort to circumscribe or weaken the regulation. My workers comp premiums were about 3.5% of payroll. If, as some linked articles have suggested, 2% of workers comp claims are fraudulent, then even if the fraudulent claims are 5x more expensive than the legit ones, it would only save at most 10% on premiums, lowering mine from 3.5% to 3.2%.
Am I really supposed to care about that? Is that really a reasonable way to save such a tiny amount of money? I say fuck that. People need medical security way more than employers need a few basis points of payroll savings.
posted by andrewpcone at 4:05 PM on December 22, 2015 [48 favorites]
Didn't you know? A few anecdotal incidences of fraud are evidence of systematic problems, while evidence of systematic corporate/political gaming of the system are viewed as "necessary to avoid fraud". See also: welfare, foodstamps, pensions, insurance, ...
posted by fings at 4:08 PM on December 22, 2015 [18 favorites]
posted by fings at 4:08 PM on December 22, 2015 [18 favorites]
"I have also known people who have been seriously injured at work who did not file claims because they were afraid of employer retaliation."
Sometimes it's just the threat of a mandatory drug test when filing a claim. Around here it's common to drug test retail workers as part of the comp process even for something like carpal tunnel.
posted by Matt Oneiros at 4:11 PM on December 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
Sometimes it's just the threat of a mandatory drug test when filing a claim. Around here it's common to drug test retail workers as part of the comp process even for something like carpal tunnel.
posted by Matt Oneiros at 4:11 PM on December 22, 2015 [13 favorites]
A true chronicle of waste, fraud and abuse.
About SSI rather than workman's comp, but the same forces are at play. One of Charles Pierce's best pieces.
posted by TedW at 4:12 PM on December 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
About SSI rather than workman's comp, but the same forces are at play. One of Charles Pierce's best pieces.
posted by TedW at 4:12 PM on December 22, 2015 [11 favorites]
I recommend John Oliver's segment on chicken farming for an excellent distillation of the complexity of the industry into the clear clusterfuck that it is. Even if that's an insult to clusterfucks.
posted by argonauta at 6:21 PM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by argonauta at 6:21 PM on December 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
A few anecdotal incidences of fraud are evidence of systematic problems, while evidence of systematic corporate/political gaming of the system are viewed as "necessary to avoid fraud". See also: welfare, foodstamps, pensions, insurance
Yeah, this CAN NOT be stressed enough. We KNOW that there's a systematic effort on the part of corporations to strip protections from ordinary people--look at the links in this post, bankruptcy "reform", the proliferation of arbitration clauses in everything, etc., etc.--there's plenty of evidence for that.
The evidence for systematic abuse of "the system" by ordinary people? Maybe I've seen a hundred well-publicized stories of abuses over the last few decades, which hardly seems like it's a systemic problem.
posted by Ickster at 6:38 PM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yeah, this CAN NOT be stressed enough. We KNOW that there's a systematic effort on the part of corporations to strip protections from ordinary people--look at the links in this post, bankruptcy "reform", the proliferation of arbitration clauses in everything, etc., etc.--there's plenty of evidence for that.
The evidence for systematic abuse of "the system" by ordinary people? Maybe I've seen a hundred well-publicized stories of abuses over the last few decades, which hardly seems like it's a systemic problem.
posted by Ickster at 6:38 PM on December 22, 2015 [4 favorites]
I worked for about a year for a national shipping company as a temp doing workers comp and disability paperwork. My job, as I saw it, was to make sure that all forms were filled out and that doctors signed off on everything. My job, as many of the managers (but not my manager, who was great) saw it, was to be as obstructionist as possible so they could keep their "x many days without an injury" stats looking good, since those stats were part of how their compensation was determined. I had to tell several managers many times that we would be reporting a minor-looking incident to OSHA because we reported everything to OSHA because my integrity was worth more than $15/hour and I didn't give a shit about their numbers looking good. Make the numbers look good by having fewer injuries.
I was the kind of temp that can be changed to temp-to-hire really easily. I don't know that my failure to get hired on had anything to do with my refusal to fudge numbers for OSHA, but I have my suspicions.
posted by joannemerriam at 6:53 PM on December 22, 2015 [14 favorites]
I was the kind of temp that can be changed to temp-to-hire really easily. I don't know that my failure to get hired on had anything to do with my refusal to fudge numbers for OSHA, but I have my suspicions.
posted by joannemerriam at 6:53 PM on December 22, 2015 [14 favorites]
If a "substantial" amount of fraud was cause enough to cancel things, I guess we'll all have to do without weapons systems, talk radio and religion.
posted by maxwelton at 7:05 PM on December 22, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by maxwelton at 7:05 PM on December 22, 2015 [14 favorites]
I'll bet if those judges were corporate employees,
Well, they are, just not the way you meant...
posted by notsnot at 7:20 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well, they are, just not the way you meant...
posted by notsnot at 7:20 PM on December 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Chicken farming=cluckerfuck!
posted by Oyéah at 7:31 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Oyéah at 7:31 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Universal single payer healthcare would fix most of that.
posted by toodleydoodley at 8:18 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by toodleydoodley at 8:18 PM on December 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
It only solves the recovery part not the compensation part.
posted by Mitheral at 8:29 PM on December 22, 2015
posted by Mitheral at 8:29 PM on December 22, 2015
but then the abuse by those using the system, ie, the workers, is horrendous,
You have got to be shitin' me!
I ain't even going to respond with facts, just derision.
posted by ridgerunner at 9:08 PM on December 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
You have got to be shitin' me!
I ain't even going to respond with facts, just derision.
posted by ridgerunner at 9:08 PM on December 22, 2015 [7 favorites]
Remember, no system is perfect and it will tend to err either on the side of giving benefits to people who don't actually qualify or failing to help workers who really need it.
If you can't point to any examples of people cheating the system you can be sure it is failing to help a lot of people who need and deserve it.
posted by straight at 9:17 PM on December 22, 2015 [17 favorites]
If you can't point to any examples of people cheating the system you can be sure it is failing to help a lot of people who need and deserve it.
posted by straight at 9:17 PM on December 22, 2015 [17 favorites]
also the cost-benefit analysis has to include the cost of enforcement.
also people often don't file worker's comp claims, even when asked to by their employer, because filling a claim is often a de facto invitation to get fired, so improving enforcement against that practice should take priority.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:21 AM on December 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
also people often don't file worker's comp claims, even when asked to by their employer, because filling a claim is often a de facto invitation to get fired, so improving enforcement against that practice should take priority.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 1:21 AM on December 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
You clearly need to relieve the poor corporations of the toil and expense of administering workers compensation.
New Zealand's Accident Compensation Corporation site.
ACC on Wikipedia.
It has been running forty years and with the occasional wobble (2009) is currently pretty close to fully funded.
posted by Autumn Leaf at 5:20 PM on December 24, 2015
New Zealand's Accident Compensation Corporation site.
ACC on Wikipedia.
It has been running forty years and with the occasional wobble (2009) is currently pretty close to fully funded.
posted by Autumn Leaf at 5:20 PM on December 24, 2015
Postroad: quite the opposite, actually. I worked construction for a summer. In that time I saw three people get injured, two gravely. One was a minor injury that they tried to play into a big workers comp deal. Neither of the seriously injured were ever paid a dime, the third went to jail for fraud.
So no, I don't know what you are talking about.
posted by Freen at 2:16 PM on December 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
So no, I don't know what you are talking about.
posted by Freen at 2:16 PM on December 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
Another excellent piece on this topic from Michael Grabell, who surely deserves a Pulitzer Prize at this point for his outstanding investigative reporting: All of This Because Somebody Got Hurt at Work — Hummer limos, go-go dancers, a live alligator and glowing aliens in spandex at the national workers’ comp and disability expo. Journey into the little-known workers’ comp industrial complex. (via)
posted by tonycpsu at 7:01 AM on January 5, 2016
posted by tonycpsu at 7:01 AM on January 5, 2016
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