How fortunate you’re not Professor de Breeze
January 5, 2016 6:37 AM Subscribe
Given that it's no longer widely taught in even the most prestigious high schools in the US and UK, and given the current economic climate, Why should Millennials Study the Classics?
I feel it's a real mixed bag. There's the DWEM critique that's often given, though I feel it's hard to extricate the shared heritage with the classics. But there also feels some universality with the classics -- all the big-theme/idea troupes exist there, like grown up mother-goose or Aesop. The idea of forgetting history means you'll repeat it come sprung from knowing the classics.
posted by k5.user at 6:59 AM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by k5.user at 6:59 AM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Why?
That's easy.
If you're talking college students with an ambition to get into medical or law school, a minor in Latin or Greek minor makes you stand out against the BioChem and PolySci majors, and in a good way.
Ditto if you're looking for a job. Hard disciplines beat out soft ones every time. Such people are flexible, easier to train.
If you're talking Life in General, a rigorous reading of classics means you will rarely be surprised by anything you read in the newspaper.
Finally, for a certain mindset, it's fun. It's a connection with millennia of past lives. Astonishing, really.
Fellow I knew in college, now a Big Deal professor at an Ivy, remarked that what he liked about classics is that "they resist bullshit".
posted by BWA at 7:00 AM on January 5, 2016 [24 favorites]
That's easy.
If you're talking college students with an ambition to get into medical or law school, a minor in Latin or Greek minor makes you stand out against the BioChem and PolySci majors, and in a good way.
Ditto if you're looking for a job. Hard disciplines beat out soft ones every time. Such people are flexible, easier to train.
If you're talking Life in General, a rigorous reading of classics means you will rarely be surprised by anything you read in the newspaper.
Finally, for a certain mindset, it's fun. It's a connection with millennia of past lives. Astonishing, really.
Fellow I knew in college, now a Big Deal professor at an Ivy, remarked that what he liked about classics is that "they resist bullshit".
posted by BWA at 7:00 AM on January 5, 2016 [24 favorites]
semper ubi sub ubi
Millennials already know to always take an Uber to Subway and back, thank you very much.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 7:01 AM on January 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
Millennials already know to always take an Uber to Subway and back, thank you very much.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 7:01 AM on January 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
None of these articles really stresses enough the absolute joy of reading good Greek, which is a crying shame. More people should be able to experience the Agamemnon.
On the other hand, is it worth four+ years of intense study? Maybe not.
On a more practical note, Latin is a great tool for improving your English writing--not just in terms of vocabulary, but, like, in the way that Latin sentence structure forces you to really comprehend how words interact with each other.
posted by Oxydude at 7:06 AM on January 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
On the other hand, is it worth four+ years of intense study? Maybe not.
On a more practical note, Latin is a great tool for improving your English writing--not just in terms of vocabulary, but, like, in the way that Latin sentence structure forces you to really comprehend how words interact with each other.
posted by Oxydude at 7:06 AM on January 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think Classics are particularly helpful in the US because they put the dominant religious tradition in better historical context. Many of the traditions that are now considered 'Christian' are derived from plurality of sources, and many of them were Roman. Christmas has a lot in common with Saturnalia, Valentine's with Lupercalia, etc. Seeing all this can be really eye-opening, particularly when it becomes clear that the 'traditionalists' have literally no idea where their traditions actually come from.
I don't mean this in a LOLXTIANS fashion, by the way. For just over a millennium, Christianity and what we now call Roman Catholicism were seen as a single thing.* Really understanding what was written in the New Testament means you need Greek, and really understanding the context in which Christianity grew to become the largest world religion means you need Latin. I think a thoughtful practice of Christianity requires at least a passing familiarity with both. Realizations like, "Oh, that's why the fish was used as the symbol for Christ!" are really cool.
*yes I know it's infinitely more complicated than that.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:12 AM on January 5, 2016 [17 favorites]
I don't mean this in a LOLXTIANS fashion, by the way. For just over a millennium, Christianity and what we now call Roman Catholicism were seen as a single thing.* Really understanding what was written in the New Testament means you need Greek, and really understanding the context in which Christianity grew to become the largest world religion means you need Latin. I think a thoughtful practice of Christianity requires at least a passing familiarity with both. Realizations like, "Oh, that's why the fish was used as the symbol for Christ!" are really cool.
*yes I know it's infinitely more complicated than that.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:12 AM on January 5, 2016 [17 favorites]
There's the DWEM critique that's often given
I think an answer to this is to extend the margins of what we consider The Classics a bit beyond what the other DWEM who came up with the label defined it as. I never studied the European classics much, but my undergrad involved a solid amount - just short of a minor - of studying ancient Japanese literature (with a smidge of ancient Chinese literature and a brief detour in to Korean shamanistic traditions). I think I got a solid footing in a whole bunch of the stuff that defenders of the classics say the classics are important for, while getting to study works outside the DWEM canon (doubly so since the earliest Japanese novels are by and about women).
posted by Itaxpica at 7:15 AM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think an answer to this is to extend the margins of what we consider The Classics a bit beyond what the other DWEM who came up with the label defined it as. I never studied the European classics much, but my undergrad involved a solid amount - just short of a minor - of studying ancient Japanese literature (with a smidge of ancient Chinese literature and a brief detour in to Korean shamanistic traditions). I think I got a solid footing in a whole bunch of the stuff that defenders of the classics say the classics are important for, while getting to study works outside the DWEM canon (doubly so since the earliest Japanese novels are by and about women).
posted by Itaxpica at 7:15 AM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
I am the wondrous wizard of Latin! I am a dervish of declension and a conjurer of conjugation, with a million hit points and maximum charisma!
You've mastered a dead tongue, but can you handle a live one?
posted by adept256 at 7:15 AM on January 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
You've mastered a dead tongue, but can you handle a live one?
posted by adept256 at 7:15 AM on January 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
> If you're talking Life in General, a rigorous reading of classics means you will rarely be surprised by anything you read in the newspaper.
Aging past 40 or so also does the trick. But seriously, the way education seems to be going I fully expect there to be one non-STEM class offered in high school and university by the time my nieces and nephews are that age, and it will be called Productive Citizen Training.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:17 AM on January 5, 2016 [23 favorites]
Aging past 40 or so also does the trick. But seriously, the way education seems to be going I fully expect there to be one non-STEM class offered in high school and university by the time my nieces and nephews are that age, and it will be called Productive Citizen Training.
posted by The Card Cheat at 7:17 AM on January 5, 2016 [23 favorites]
If you're in sciences and your pages aren't peppered with either Greek letters (delta, phi, omega, and so on) or Latin words (be them extensor carpi ulnaris or Solanum tuberosum), you're probably doing it wrong.
posted by sukeban at 7:19 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by sukeban at 7:19 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
My year of college Latin did more to improve my English than it did my Latin, which was and is abysmal. My experience is mostly with reading Classics in translation, which is obviously a very different experience, although still a valuable one, I think.
As to the value of Classics generally, on the one hand, reading the perspective you get from studying the Classics is good and valuable, but so is the perspective you get from studying any sort of literature. A comprehensive study of Sanskrit and its literature would be just as useful for making you think about grammar and learning from history and reading the great minds. If anything the decline of Classics strikes me less as a matter of failing to see the value of Greece and Rome and more that we see the value of so much more now. Intensive study of anything will make you a better rounded person, Greece and Rome aren't special in that way.
In college, I took my college's core curriculum's course in Dead White Men (Human Being and Citizen and Classics of Social and Political Thought for the U of Cers here), and it was really useful and I learned a lot that was valuable in the way liberal arts claim to be. I also took courses on the history/culture of the Middle East, which were just as valuable.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 7:21 AM on January 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
As to the value of Classics generally, on the one hand, reading the perspective you get from studying the Classics is good and valuable, but so is the perspective you get from studying any sort of literature. A comprehensive study of Sanskrit and its literature would be just as useful for making you think about grammar and learning from history and reading the great minds. If anything the decline of Classics strikes me less as a matter of failing to see the value of Greece and Rome and more that we see the value of so much more now. Intensive study of anything will make you a better rounded person, Greece and Rome aren't special in that way.
In college, I took my college's core curriculum's course in Dead White Men (Human Being and Citizen and Classics of Social and Political Thought for the U of Cers here), and it was really useful and I learned a lot that was valuable in the way liberal arts claim to be. I also took courses on the history/culture of the Middle East, which were just as valuable.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 7:21 AM on January 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
Hmm. Less than a week into 2016 and only one paragraph into the linked Forbes piece and we've got a contender for forbidden words: "boom brands."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:21 AM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 7:21 AM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Study Hamlet, Othello, Macbeth, King Lear and The Tempest, and you will learn everything you will ever need to know about human psychology.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:23 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:23 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Study Hamlet, Othello, Macbeth, King Lear and The Tempest, and you will learn everything you will ever need to know about human psychology.
And though thou hadst small Latin and less Greek,
From thence, to honour thee, I would not seek
For names; but call forth thund’ring Aeschylus,
Euripides, and Sophocles to us,
Paccuvius, Accius, him of Cordova dead
To life again, to hear thy buskin tread
And shake a stage; or when thy socks were on,
Leave thee alone, for the comparison
Of all that insolent Greece or haughty Rome
Sent forth; or since did from their ashes come.
Tri'umph, my Britain, thou hast one to show
To whom all scenes of Europe homage owe.
He was not of an age but for all time!
And all the Muses still were in their prime,
When, like Apollo, he came forth to warm
Our ears, or like a Mercury to charm!
posted by leotrotsky at 7:26 AM on January 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
And though thou hadst small Latin and less Greek,
From thence, to honour thee, I would not seek
For names; but call forth thund’ring Aeschylus,
Euripides, and Sophocles to us,
Paccuvius, Accius, him of Cordova dead
To life again, to hear thy buskin tread
And shake a stage; or when thy socks were on,
Leave thee alone, for the comparison
Of all that insolent Greece or haughty Rome
Sent forth; or since did from their ashes come.
Tri'umph, my Britain, thou hast one to show
To whom all scenes of Europe homage owe.
He was not of an age but for all time!
And all the Muses still were in their prime,
When, like Apollo, he came forth to warm
Our ears, or like a Mercury to charm!
posted by leotrotsky at 7:26 AM on January 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
Study Shakespeare without an understanding of his allusions to Greek and Roman myth, and you will have gone nowhere.
Also, what happened to Julius Caesar, Anthony and Cleopatra, Titus Andronicus or Troilus and Cressida? They aren't anglo enough?
posted by sukeban at 7:26 AM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
Also, what happened to Julius Caesar, Anthony and Cleopatra, Titus Andronicus or Troilus and Cressida? They aren't anglo enough?
posted by sukeban at 7:26 AM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
Which of the posted links makes the clearest case for studying/teaching the classics? I don't want to read _all_ of them, but I am interested in finding a clear concise argument for this.
posted by amtho at 7:26 AM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by amtho at 7:26 AM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Speaking as someone who studied "Classics", it's quite valuable but the label is stupid. Go ahead and study Greek Philosophy or French poetry or German Metaphysics, but also you should consider studying non-"Classics" like, say, anything written by a woman or non-European ever. The contents are great but the packaging is fucking rotten.
posted by selfnoise at 7:28 AM on January 5, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by selfnoise at 7:28 AM on January 5, 2016 [14 favorites]
Classic literature has something that newer literature doesn't have, will never have, and can never have: a kind of proto-ness that illustrates the connections between things.
Homer is a great example: the Iliad is a song, is a story, is a religious work, is a historical work, all at the same time, in ways that no remotely modern literature can possibly strive to be. Homer operated in all of these territories because those areas have always been of interest to people everywhere.
Herodotus' Histories is another example of the same: there are parts that are travelogue, parts that are hearsay storytelling, parts that are more like a modern historical narrative. The focus of genre that we now have didn't exist at the beginning of the field.
I'm just an autodidact when it comes to the classics, but it's been incredibly fruitful. The imperfection, joy, and novelty of the classics helps me see the modern human enterprise with a bit more humility. The more I relate to the literature of that time, the better I can relate to all the strange people in my life.
I haven't read the linked article, though. I'm too busy for that.
posted by billjings at 7:31 AM on January 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
Homer is a great example: the Iliad is a song, is a story, is a religious work, is a historical work, all at the same time, in ways that no remotely modern literature can possibly strive to be. Homer operated in all of these territories because those areas have always been of interest to people everywhere.
Herodotus' Histories is another example of the same: there are parts that are travelogue, parts that are hearsay storytelling, parts that are more like a modern historical narrative. The focus of genre that we now have didn't exist at the beginning of the field.
I'm just an autodidact when it comes to the classics, but it's been incredibly fruitful. The imperfection, joy, and novelty of the classics helps me see the modern human enterprise with a bit more humility. The more I relate to the literature of that time, the better I can relate to all the strange people in my life.
I haven't read the linked article, though. I'm too busy for that.
posted by billjings at 7:31 AM on January 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
The first link isn't about the decline of study of "the classics," it's about the decline of the study of Classical Greek and Latin. I don't see any evidence that schools are teaching less Sophocles than they used to.
Much of this is like asking why scientists don't all know French and German anymore: so much exists in translation for English speakers that Latin and Greek are more exercises in the study of linguistics than something important for literacy. That's fine if it is important to you, but classical languages are no longer the gateway to the wider world of literature that they used to be.
posted by deanc at 7:51 AM on January 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
Much of this is like asking why scientists don't all know French and German anymore: so much exists in translation for English speakers that Latin and Greek are more exercises in the study of linguistics than something important for literacy. That's fine if it is important to you, but classical languages are no longer the gateway to the wider world of literature that they used to be.
posted by deanc at 7:51 AM on January 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's like knowing the secret key to the code of a dominant culture, and probably the culture in which you live.
Last night I told one of my kids that his older brother was kind of foolish to blow off going to church. Where else would he get to hear live reading from the bible, a foundational document from our culture, which he would hear echoed throughout twenty centuries of Western art? And the same holds true for Shakespeare and for the Greek & Roman classics.
I studied some classics as an undergrad but I had already sucked up Edith Hamilton as a D&D kid. So when I heard those stories and names coming up again in Shakespeare and the Greeks, I knew exactly what they were referring to, and the foundation they were building upon.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:52 AM on January 5, 2016
Last night I told one of my kids that his older brother was kind of foolish to blow off going to church. Where else would he get to hear live reading from the bible, a foundational document from our culture, which he would hear echoed throughout twenty centuries of Western art? And the same holds true for Shakespeare and for the Greek & Roman classics.
I studied some classics as an undergrad but I had already sucked up Edith Hamilton as a D&D kid. So when I heard those stories and names coming up again in Shakespeare and the Greeks, I knew exactly what they were referring to, and the foundation they were building upon.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:52 AM on January 5, 2016
I studied Latin 8th through 12th grade and am better for it, I guess, as I followed a less Classically inclined path in college. So I remember enough to make a ton of slightly off-base references to things and be all right at bar trivia. I have a tattoo in Latin, though, which makes me a target for all kinds of dudes who want to lecture someone about what they studied in college. I'm not hiring, I don't care what your major was.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 7:52 AM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by everybody had matching towels at 7:52 AM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Studying the Western classics (to the unfortunately limited extent that I did in high school and college) gave me a basic grounding in the roots of Western history, religion, politics, and society -- not to mention an understanding of the sources of democracy, even if the goal is to eradicate or uproot democracy. Acknowledging and delving deeply into the undeniable value of cultures that aren't "classical" doesn't obviate the impact of Greece and Rome on the course of much of world history, for better or more often for worse.
On the other hand, there is a not-enough-acknowledged tradition in the classics that's hard for many to pull away from, which is that it's often seen as the stuffy province of the moneyed white private-school (public-school in Britain) elite. Edith Hall puts it well when she writes of Thomas Hardy, the working-class son of a stonemason who had to quit school at 16 because of lack of financial support, that "he never resolved his internal conflict between admiration for Greek and Latin authors and resentment of the supercilious attitude of some members of the upper classes who had been formally trained in them."
posted by blucevalo at 8:03 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
On the other hand, there is a not-enough-acknowledged tradition in the classics that's hard for many to pull away from, which is that it's often seen as the stuffy province of the moneyed white private-school (public-school in Britain) elite. Edith Hall puts it well when she writes of Thomas Hardy, the working-class son of a stonemason who had to quit school at 16 because of lack of financial support, that "he never resolved his internal conflict between admiration for Greek and Latin authors and resentment of the supercilious attitude of some members of the upper classes who had been formally trained in them."
posted by blucevalo at 8:03 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well of course you need the Classics: how else are you going to remind your lads they men are the center of the universe? When they argue online against women protagonists in books and movies, they need to be able to point out that men are the driving force of action in the Iliad and the Odessey, with women as prizes, support, our impediments. Obviously. Aristotle and all that.
posted by happyroach at 8:19 AM on January 5, 2016
posted by happyroach at 8:19 AM on January 5, 2016
Study Shakespeare without an understanding of his allusions to Greek and Roman myth, and you will have gone nowhere.Absolutely. Shakespearean (and non-Shakespearean) drama can't be separated from the context of the history of English education. It's what resulted when the sons of a bunch of glovers, shoemakers, stone masons, tailors, and coach builders were exposed to the classics through the medium of the English grammar school. (Of course, it's also partly the story of what happens when the number of highly educated people produced by the schools outnumbers the amount of available positions for them in the church or civil service, but that's by-the-by.)
posted by Sonny Jim at 8:22 AM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
they need to be able to point out that men are the driving force of action in the Iliad and the Odessey
Good thing nobody wrote Antigone, Medea, Electra or The Trojan Women, then.
posted by sukeban at 8:28 AM on January 5, 2016 [20 favorites]
Good thing nobody wrote Antigone, Medea, Electra or The Trojan Women, then.
posted by sukeban at 8:28 AM on January 5, 2016 [20 favorites]
Small Latin and less Greek - that's me, that is. But I enjoyed my time in the company of Aristophanes and Caesar, it gave me perspectives on culture, history and society, and no fear of the structure and components of language.
Was this the 'best' use of those chunks of my educational budget? Unanswerable question. It was certainly a good one, and if I got the chance to create a better, more humane educational system then exposure to ancient language and literature would be an option for all. But then, I'd throw in philosophy and anthropology as well...
I found myself defending the inclusion of basic programming skills in the curriculum the other day, and it helped crystallise how I see the value of any educational system - it's not to turn out people who can speak Latin or Javascript or contemplate existentialism with the correct critical apparatus, it's to expose young people to as many potential fascinations as possible, in a way that lets them find their own resonances, and then provide them with the tools and guidance to make them a productive part of their lives.
Of course there are basic givens to equip people for life in their adulthood, but I can't actually say what those should be for fifteen years hence. I can say having a base level of instruction in areas you find fulfilling will make you a better, happier person and repay the investment enormously.
posted by Devonian at 8:28 AM on January 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
Was this the 'best' use of those chunks of my educational budget? Unanswerable question. It was certainly a good one, and if I got the chance to create a better, more humane educational system then exposure to ancient language and literature would be an option for all. But then, I'd throw in philosophy and anthropology as well...
I found myself defending the inclusion of basic programming skills in the curriculum the other day, and it helped crystallise how I see the value of any educational system - it's not to turn out people who can speak Latin or Javascript or contemplate existentialism with the correct critical apparatus, it's to expose young people to as many potential fascinations as possible, in a way that lets them find their own resonances, and then provide them with the tools and guidance to make them a productive part of their lives.
Of course there are basic givens to equip people for life in their adulthood, but I can't actually say what those should be for fifteen years hence. I can say having a base level of instruction in areas you find fulfilling will make you a better, happier person and repay the investment enormously.
posted by Devonian at 8:28 AM on January 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
Sure there is value of studying these things, but what proponents need to do is to make the argument that these things are worth studying MORE THAN other things. Which, to me at least, is a much harder prospect.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:42 AM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:42 AM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
Exactly three months ago previously, in which the first comment was by XMLicious, and deserves to be quoted:
"It's like being waterboarded with reasons for Classics majors to exist"
posted by eclectist at 8:46 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
"It's like being waterboarded with reasons for Classics majors to exist"
posted by eclectist at 8:46 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
The HOTTEST recruit I have ever seen in 17 years of recruiting in New York was a classics and math double major who had been on the golf team. I couldn't, and no one else could, imagine anything that screamed "well-rounded smart guy" than that. IIRC dude turned us all down to go to medical school.
posted by MattD at 8:57 AM on January 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by MattD at 8:57 AM on January 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
Working with newly graduated programmers, I'm often struck by the thought "These folks don't really know anything.". It's not an entirely fair thought. I mean, yes, they can reverse a linked list and are generally bright folks. But their ability with just general reasoning is often incredibly shallow.
I'm at the point where I'd rather hire a classics major and teach them to program, rather than try to make a computer scientist understand that humans drive requirements, and the web browser is not "a passing fad."
posted by underflow at 9:12 AM on January 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'm at the point where I'd rather hire a classics major and teach them to program, rather than try to make a computer scientist understand that humans drive requirements, and the web browser is not "a passing fad."
posted by underflow at 9:12 AM on January 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
As deanc corectly points out, The first link isn't about the decline of study of "the classics," it's about the decline of the study of Classical Greek and Latin.
While nodding along, however, I am going to say that there is value in study of those languages…but the quantity of such students will never be great. On the other hand, promoting study of classic lit. in translation (which most of us were indeed talking about) should be promoted just as STEM and the fine arts and foreign languages are promoted.
(See? We're all right. Group hug!)
posted by wenestvedt at 9:24 AM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
While nodding along, however, I am going to say that there is value in study of those languages…but the quantity of such students will never be great. On the other hand, promoting study of classic lit. in translation (which most of us were indeed talking about) should be promoted just as STEM and the fine arts and foreign languages are promoted.
(See? We're all right. Group hug!)
posted by wenestvedt at 9:24 AM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
I've never been particularly sympathetic to those who want to see the Classics thrown off the curriculum for DWEM reasons. The Classics are the foundational story of Western civilization. The cultural air through which we walk is impregnated with ideas, stories, language that originated in Greece and Rome. While it's certainly enjoyable and fruitful to learn about cultures worldwide, learning about the one that, speaking as an American and Anglophile, shaped this culture for good and ill is absolutely essential, its need self-evident. And I'll nth those advocating learning Greek and Latin as both a stepping stone to reading the Classics in their original—which, with some HS Homeric Greek and self-taught Latin, I can do very slowly and find tremendously cool to be able to do even at that level—and an aid to learning any European language, including English. My own experience has been that "dative" and "subjunctive," "conjugation" and "declension," mean nothing to most educated people of my acquaintance, which just doesn't seem right.
posted by the sobsister at 9:58 AM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by the sobsister at 9:58 AM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm at the point where I'd rather hire a classics major and teach them to program, rather than try to make a computer scientist understand that humans drive requirements, and the web browser is not "a passing fad."
I believe you, but the morons in HR will cull out her resume long before you ever get a chance to interview her.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:58 AM on January 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
I believe you, but the morons in HR will cull out her resume long before you ever get a chance to interview her.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:58 AM on January 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
In my (parochial, Catholic) middle school, eighth grade was the year you got the option to study a foreign language. The offerings were French, Spanish, and Latin.
As a budding history, mythology, and archaeology dork, I really wanted to take Latin. But the culture I grew up in did not value knowledge for knowledge's sake, or the idea that if you were really interested in something you should study it because that could become some kind of future path for you. My parents told me that Latin wasn't practical, that nobody even speaks it, and that it doesn't help you get into college or get a job or do anything important in the real world. I tried to counter with the old saw about legal and medical terms, but my father is a doctor and we know lots of lawyers, and none of them studied Latin, so.
Bowing under the pressure of study for practicality's sake, I chose Spanish. (I grew up in slightly French-obsessed Cajun Louisiana, and I wanted to go a little against the grain.) I took five years of Spanish, up to AP courses. Studying Spanish, I fell in love with foreign language study, and yes, the idea of learning simply for the pleasure of it. Spanish was practical on the outside, but I could geek out over grammar to my heart's content.
There was just one problem. Spanish-language literature is plenty interesting, and Spanish-speaking parts of the world are really cool (and, yes, I still have a useful level of Spanish even 20 years later), but it just didn't speak to me the way that classical history and mythology and especially the Mediterranean world did and still do.
Senior year of high school -- while still studying Spanish -- I signed on to a school trip to Italy which would mainly cover ancient Rome and the classical world. The trip was led by the school's Latin teacher, and almost everyone else going was a Latin student. Going on the trip required you to sign up for an independent study course that would require an immersion in the classics, with a smattering of modern Italian culture and language. I fell in love with that, too, and had an amazing time on the trip. However, I couldn't help but feel like I was missing out on something because I hadn't chosen Latin four years previous.
In college, I ultimately ended up as an anthropology major. I chose anthro because I loved history and archaeology and the classics, but I didn't have the grounding in Latin that was required to declare a classics major. And, yes, anthropology works well for someone who has studied Spanish, because you can go specialize in something that involves a lot of Spanish speakers, and grad school, and Teotihuacan, etc. Except that none of that stuff interested me in an organic way, the way that the classical Mediterranean did and still does 15 years later.
After college, it didn't take much for me to drift out of anthropology and into an entirely different career. It's probably true that, as an office wonk in the film industry, Latin and a degree in Classics would have been useless to me. Spanish is, of course, equally useless. As is the degree in anthropology I got because classics wasn't an option. And I still have a love of classical-era history and the Mediterranean. I've been to Italy four times now, including a month living in Tuscany with amazing access to Roman and Etruscan sites. I've also visited Greece and Turkey, where the highlight of those trips was visiting classical sites. In my private time, I still read a lot about Rome and the classical world. I'm developing a history podcast right now, with Mike Duncan's "The History Of Rome" as an inspiration. This has been something that has been an ongoing fascination for me, from childhood. But I'm effectively blocked out of a huge aspect of it, because my parents decided that Latin was "impractical" to study.
At this point I use my Spanish to eavesdrop on my East L.A. neighbors, on the occasional vacation (Peruvians are very fond of insulting my grammar), and to pronounce menu items correctly. I have never used it for any practical purpose, largely because I never had any real passion for it.
I'm not saying that Latin and the classics should be retained simply because I happen to like it and regret not studying it. There are obviously thousands of fields that some random kid somewhere in the world might have a passion for, and not all of them can be taught to middle schoolers. But it's true that Classics occupies a sort of awkward position where this is concerned, because on the one hand people are discouraging students from studying it, but on the other hand, university departments will not admit students who haven't already begun studying it.
So, keep Latin, I say. Or at least re-center the study of the classics so that it's possible to devote your life to it without taking it on at an age where authority figures are deciding for you what you're going to study based on "practicality".
posted by Sara C. at 10:44 AM on January 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
As a budding history, mythology, and archaeology dork, I really wanted to take Latin. But the culture I grew up in did not value knowledge for knowledge's sake, or the idea that if you were really interested in something you should study it because that could become some kind of future path for you. My parents told me that Latin wasn't practical, that nobody even speaks it, and that it doesn't help you get into college or get a job or do anything important in the real world. I tried to counter with the old saw about legal and medical terms, but my father is a doctor and we know lots of lawyers, and none of them studied Latin, so.
Bowing under the pressure of study for practicality's sake, I chose Spanish. (I grew up in slightly French-obsessed Cajun Louisiana, and I wanted to go a little against the grain.) I took five years of Spanish, up to AP courses. Studying Spanish, I fell in love with foreign language study, and yes, the idea of learning simply for the pleasure of it. Spanish was practical on the outside, but I could geek out over grammar to my heart's content.
There was just one problem. Spanish-language literature is plenty interesting, and Spanish-speaking parts of the world are really cool (and, yes, I still have a useful level of Spanish even 20 years later), but it just didn't speak to me the way that classical history and mythology and especially the Mediterranean world did and still do.
Senior year of high school -- while still studying Spanish -- I signed on to a school trip to Italy which would mainly cover ancient Rome and the classical world. The trip was led by the school's Latin teacher, and almost everyone else going was a Latin student. Going on the trip required you to sign up for an independent study course that would require an immersion in the classics, with a smattering of modern Italian culture and language. I fell in love with that, too, and had an amazing time on the trip. However, I couldn't help but feel like I was missing out on something because I hadn't chosen Latin four years previous.
In college, I ultimately ended up as an anthropology major. I chose anthro because I loved history and archaeology and the classics, but I didn't have the grounding in Latin that was required to declare a classics major. And, yes, anthropology works well for someone who has studied Spanish, because you can go specialize in something that involves a lot of Spanish speakers, and grad school, and Teotihuacan, etc. Except that none of that stuff interested me in an organic way, the way that the classical Mediterranean did and still does 15 years later.
After college, it didn't take much for me to drift out of anthropology and into an entirely different career. It's probably true that, as an office wonk in the film industry, Latin and a degree in Classics would have been useless to me. Spanish is, of course, equally useless. As is the degree in anthropology I got because classics wasn't an option. And I still have a love of classical-era history and the Mediterranean. I've been to Italy four times now, including a month living in Tuscany with amazing access to Roman and Etruscan sites. I've also visited Greece and Turkey, where the highlight of those trips was visiting classical sites. In my private time, I still read a lot about Rome and the classical world. I'm developing a history podcast right now, with Mike Duncan's "The History Of Rome" as an inspiration. This has been something that has been an ongoing fascination for me, from childhood. But I'm effectively blocked out of a huge aspect of it, because my parents decided that Latin was "impractical" to study.
At this point I use my Spanish to eavesdrop on my East L.A. neighbors, on the occasional vacation (Peruvians are very fond of insulting my grammar), and to pronounce menu items correctly. I have never used it for any practical purpose, largely because I never had any real passion for it.
I'm not saying that Latin and the classics should be retained simply because I happen to like it and regret not studying it. There are obviously thousands of fields that some random kid somewhere in the world might have a passion for, and not all of them can be taught to middle schoolers. But it's true that Classics occupies a sort of awkward position where this is concerned, because on the one hand people are discouraging students from studying it, but on the other hand, university departments will not admit students who haven't already begun studying it.
So, keep Latin, I say. Or at least re-center the study of the classics so that it's possible to devote your life to it without taking it on at an age where authority figures are deciding for you what you're going to study based on "practicality".
posted by Sara C. at 10:44 AM on January 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
Young people should be made to study the classics so that when they give voice to their resentment at being tormented by schoolteachers for the sake of their parents' bourgeois aspirations, they do so with virtuosic eloquence.
posted by Gerald Bostock at 10:50 AM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Gerald Bostock at 10:50 AM on January 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
Friends of my stepson and my partner are taking Classics at college. The reading list is so narrow! They are reading a set list that comprises a few books for the A/AS Level (tests).
posted by parmanparman at 10:54 AM on January 5, 2016
posted by parmanparman at 10:54 AM on January 5, 2016
I don't want to read _all_ of them, but I am interested in finding a clear concise argument.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:12 AM on January 5, 2016
posted by Potomac Avenue at 11:12 AM on January 5, 2016
Isn't pretty much any specialization you make in college going to involve a narrow focus? I mean maybe we're talking two books or three authors or something, but I kind of thought the whole point of declaring a classics major at the post-secondary level was to narrow your coursework down to a specific area?
(OTOH it would be pretty cool if the "classics" designation evolved away from specific focus on classical Rome and Greece and more on the ancient world in general, with a more interdisciplinary view that included art history, archaeology, linguistics, the social sciences, and literature in non-Latin/Greek languages.)
posted by Sara C. at 11:17 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
(OTOH it would be pretty cool if the "classics" designation evolved away from specific focus on classical Rome and Greece and more on the ancient world in general, with a more interdisciplinary view that included art history, archaeology, linguistics, the social sciences, and literature in non-Latin/Greek languages.)
posted by Sara C. at 11:17 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
sukeban: I took a course in Classical Archaeology "for fun" - it turned out that years of studying maths and physics had given me a good enough knowledge of the Greek alphabet - and how each letter is pronounced - to be able to decipher lots of the writing on Greek urns.
But overall - yes to Classics if you can. But also yes to other cultures' classics if you can as well. Any literature that has remained popular, important or influential for a very long time is probably worth your time if you can spare it.
posted by YoungStencil at 11:30 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
But overall - yes to Classics if you can. But also yes to other cultures' classics if you can as well. Any literature that has remained popular, important or influential for a very long time is probably worth your time if you can spare it.
posted by YoungStencil at 11:30 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
My parents told me that Latin wasn't practical, that nobody even speaks it, and that it doesn't help you get into college or get a job or do anything important in the real world. I tried to counter with the old saw about legal and medical terms, but my father is a doctor and we know lots of lawyers, and none of them studied Latin, so.
And I, in turn, got in epic fights with my father in high school because I wanted to study French so I could speak a real language with people, and he wanted me to study Latin so I could be a smart lawyer like everyone else in my family!
And I studied French and now have the completely useless skill of being fairly fluent in French. Not useless at all, only in my life. I'm able to really surprise French people, on occasion. "Your accent isn't terrible!" Which is about the highest compliment I assume I will ever receive.
(my sister studied Latin and is now a lawyer, though)
posted by jeweled accumulation at 11:42 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
And I, in turn, got in epic fights with my father in high school because I wanted to study French so I could speak a real language with people, and he wanted me to study Latin so I could be a smart lawyer like everyone else in my family!
And I studied French and now have the completely useless skill of being fairly fluent in French. Not useless at all, only in my life. I'm able to really surprise French people, on occasion. "Your accent isn't terrible!" Which is about the highest compliment I assume I will ever receive.
(my sister studied Latin and is now a lawyer, though)
posted by jeweled accumulation at 11:42 AM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
I, too, am the only person in my family not to have studied Latin. Perhaps if foreign language study occurred earlier, then the academic study of Latin would be more practical later on. As it is, since we don't offer foreign languages until high school, our options are more limited, and studying Latin means giving something else up. My obsession with history that I later developed probably would have made Latin useful to me (as would have French, since a lot of secondary sources of the eras I was interested in were written in French).
But language allows you to feel connected to a culture. Sara C.'s description of why she wanted to learn Latin is a great one: if you really want to experience the Roman Empire, learning Latin is a great way to do that.
posted by deanc at 12:12 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
But language allows you to feel connected to a culture. Sara C.'s description of why she wanted to learn Latin is a great one: if you really want to experience the Roman Empire, learning Latin is a great way to do that.
posted by deanc at 12:12 PM on January 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
We live in an age that is mostly defined by transaction and I find myself muttering a mantra that has served me well over the years. It's a reminder: "There's more to life than sticking one's hands into another person's wallet." So, for me, one of the great perks of my particular path--which has included a slightly heavy dose classics via translation--is that I am able to resist and critique this "Age of Corporate Sponsorship."
My college prep school required 3 years of Latin and had previously required 3 years of both Latin and Greek. Then, I struggled with the Latin but eventually found my way through it and by the time we got to Caesar's Commentaries I had, in my own way, "Veni, vidi, vici."
A few years later, the ship I was on pulled into Athens harbor. And while the Vietnam War had mostly cooled down, the Cold War was still hot. There was a Soviet ship in port at the same time and so, in keeping with the zeitgeist of the time, there was no liberty for us sailors. I spent a few hours up on the signal bridge looking through the "big eyes" (a powerful lookout binocular), focused on the Acropolis. I was in awe and I also wanted to cry. So close and yet so far.
Still later, in college, I spent a delightful summer doing an independent study of Renaissance readings: Cellini, Machiavelli, Erasmus, More, Montaigne. That wouldn't have happened had I not been previously exposed to the Greeks (mostly) and the Romans. I was even fortunate enough to be allowed to do a series of all-too-brief lectures on Greek intellectual thought from Homer through Aristotle as part of my duties as a graduate assistant.
As anyone who has lived long enough can attest: you see some shit in life. Academia was not for me and I did end up in the world of commerce. But I had this foundation which has served me well over the years. Not merely a foundation but a bulwark, too. The grist which informs the scope of my decision-making was both wider and deeper than it otherwise might have been; considerations of a human nature were often large factors when I made a business judgment.
I'm fairly convinced that the underlying questions are as important, if not in some cases more important, than the answers. I have the classical tradition to thank for this outlook, especially if one extends the notion of classics to encompass later traditions which also relied on the classics.
Now that I am approaching the later phases of my particular life, these last laps are not filled with frustration about the knowledge of what I will not be able to do with the balance of my life, though there are a few twinges here and there. I am reminded that I am part of a great, ever-flowing, Heraclitean river of humanity and that my passage, while small in the overall scheme of things, is not insignificant and meaningless. I am a unique specification that the universe has created and am blessed that I have a choice to be a co-participant with Creation to the extent that I am able--even if the duration is short and the effect is perhaps not as great as one might wish. I've come to conclude that the most practical kind of person to be is to be an idealist. Because:
On his farmland Eudemos built this sanctuary to the Zephyr,
kind breeze among the harsh gales,
for when the farmer prayed,
the wind awoke briskly
helping him winnow good wheat from the chaff.
Bakchylides
posted by CincyBlues at 12:22 PM on January 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
My college prep school required 3 years of Latin and had previously required 3 years of both Latin and Greek. Then, I struggled with the Latin but eventually found my way through it and by the time we got to Caesar's Commentaries I had, in my own way, "Veni, vidi, vici."
A few years later, the ship I was on pulled into Athens harbor. And while the Vietnam War had mostly cooled down, the Cold War was still hot. There was a Soviet ship in port at the same time and so, in keeping with the zeitgeist of the time, there was no liberty for us sailors. I spent a few hours up on the signal bridge looking through the "big eyes" (a powerful lookout binocular), focused on the Acropolis. I was in awe and I also wanted to cry. So close and yet so far.
Still later, in college, I spent a delightful summer doing an independent study of Renaissance readings: Cellini, Machiavelli, Erasmus, More, Montaigne. That wouldn't have happened had I not been previously exposed to the Greeks (mostly) and the Romans. I was even fortunate enough to be allowed to do a series of all-too-brief lectures on Greek intellectual thought from Homer through Aristotle as part of my duties as a graduate assistant.
As anyone who has lived long enough can attest: you see some shit in life. Academia was not for me and I did end up in the world of commerce. But I had this foundation which has served me well over the years. Not merely a foundation but a bulwark, too. The grist which informs the scope of my decision-making was both wider and deeper than it otherwise might have been; considerations of a human nature were often large factors when I made a business judgment.
I'm fairly convinced that the underlying questions are as important, if not in some cases more important, than the answers. I have the classical tradition to thank for this outlook, especially if one extends the notion of classics to encompass later traditions which also relied on the classics.
Now that I am approaching the later phases of my particular life, these last laps are not filled with frustration about the knowledge of what I will not be able to do with the balance of my life, though there are a few twinges here and there. I am reminded that I am part of a great, ever-flowing, Heraclitean river of humanity and that my passage, while small in the overall scheme of things, is not insignificant and meaningless. I am a unique specification that the universe has created and am blessed that I have a choice to be a co-participant with Creation to the extent that I am able--even if the duration is short and the effect is perhaps not as great as one might wish. I've come to conclude that the most practical kind of person to be is to be an idealist. Because:
On his farmland Eudemos built this sanctuary to the Zephyr,
kind breeze among the harsh gales,
for when the farmer prayed,
the wind awoke briskly
helping him winnow good wheat from the chaff.
Bakchylides
posted by CincyBlues at 12:22 PM on January 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
I took four years of Latin in high school. Did Junior Classical League for three years at both the state and national levels, too, and I took the National Latin Exam every year and everything. I was particularly good at mythology--at one point I could name each of the hecatonchires without blinking--and word roots. I was really into classics, at least as far as a high schooler can be. We even did a (human-drawn) chariot race at our state JCL for a couple of years and I watched one girl go down and sprain her ankle in a collision. That was.... I think a little more realistic than they might have liked.
Looking back, as a twenty-something, I think it was mostly valuable as a lens into world history and another culture. I learned a lot of ancient geography--not just Rome and Carthage, but where Illyricum was and where exactly Troy was and how to locate Macedonia on a map. And, well, more importantly it also taught me where those places were today and what those countries were, which is occasionally useful and not something anyone ever bothered with elsewhere.
I learned about the early history of political offices and how rudimentary cultural structures about political offices grew and changed and how the corruption of those offices followed. I learned a whole lot of mythology, too, and how different local variations on religion can shape each other and change and echo into each other, which was very useful for developing a sense for how modern religions change and grow and echo. (This was, however, pretty directly related to my becoming an atheist.) I can credibly reference a whole lot of very old stories.
I'm not, however, entirely certain that it was more useful than other things I could have been doing at that time and with a good teacher. I also learned a lot of broad strokes ancient Chinese history in my world history courses, and that was honestly at least as valuable if not more so. Roman history and culture would have seeped into my worldview anyway, just by merit of being an Anglophone Westerner. There would have been plenty of opportunities to be exposed to it and soak some up. Chinese history is at least as deep and as influential, and there are fewer places to be exposed to it. History is important, but I don't see that Classical history is necessarily that much more important than other bits. If I hadn't gotten the world history education I did--and that was hands down the MOST useful course I ever took, by the way, and I never even bothered with European history--I would have sorely missed it.
Besides, I am now absolutely ruined for every goddamn pop culture thing that touches the Greek and Roman pantheons, which are all washed out and overdone when I see them used in modern contexts. Plus I snigger a little every time someone brings up Catullus because I still can't take anyone who refers to their dick as a sparrow in threadbare metaphor seriously. Or who writes, in all honesty, poetry with lines like "and then let me give you a hundred kisses! and then a thousand! and then another hundred! and another thousand!"
Whether I use it or not in my current career as a scientist is sort of beside the point. I actually found that my English vocabulary was wide enough that I spent a lot of time using that as a crutch for studying for my Latin tests, not the other way 'round. And actually, my knowledge of English as a method for translating Latin grammar isn't much more useful than just directly studying English from a linguistic standpoint would have been, although I did develop a jaundiced eye for attempts to make English behave as Latin does.
posted by sciatrix at 5:27 PM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Looking back, as a twenty-something, I think it was mostly valuable as a lens into world history and another culture. I learned a lot of ancient geography--not just Rome and Carthage, but where Illyricum was and where exactly Troy was and how to locate Macedonia on a map. And, well, more importantly it also taught me where those places were today and what those countries were, which is occasionally useful and not something anyone ever bothered with elsewhere.
I learned about the early history of political offices and how rudimentary cultural structures about political offices grew and changed and how the corruption of those offices followed. I learned a whole lot of mythology, too, and how different local variations on religion can shape each other and change and echo into each other, which was very useful for developing a sense for how modern religions change and grow and echo. (This was, however, pretty directly related to my becoming an atheist.) I can credibly reference a whole lot of very old stories.
I'm not, however, entirely certain that it was more useful than other things I could have been doing at that time and with a good teacher. I also learned a lot of broad strokes ancient Chinese history in my world history courses, and that was honestly at least as valuable if not more so. Roman history and culture would have seeped into my worldview anyway, just by merit of being an Anglophone Westerner. There would have been plenty of opportunities to be exposed to it and soak some up. Chinese history is at least as deep and as influential, and there are fewer places to be exposed to it. History is important, but I don't see that Classical history is necessarily that much more important than other bits. If I hadn't gotten the world history education I did--and that was hands down the MOST useful course I ever took, by the way, and I never even bothered with European history--I would have sorely missed it.
Besides, I am now absolutely ruined for every goddamn pop culture thing that touches the Greek and Roman pantheons, which are all washed out and overdone when I see them used in modern contexts. Plus I snigger a little every time someone brings up Catullus because I still can't take anyone who refers to their dick as a sparrow in threadbare metaphor seriously. Or who writes, in all honesty, poetry with lines like "and then let me give you a hundred kisses! and then a thousand! and then another hundred! and another thousand!"
Whether I use it or not in my current career as a scientist is sort of beside the point. I actually found that my English vocabulary was wide enough that I spent a lot of time using that as a crutch for studying for my Latin tests, not the other way 'round. And actually, my knowledge of English as a method for translating Latin grammar isn't much more useful than just directly studying English from a linguistic standpoint would have been, although I did develop a jaundiced eye for attempts to make English behave as Latin does.
posted by sciatrix at 5:27 PM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Salve! JCL represent! I was Recording Secretary for my state JCL, which involved nothing that I can remember doing. I've also still got my silver medals for the National Latin Exam (stupid grammar always burned me). Good times. I also remember playing a version of Risk comprised of Roman Provinces. Much skullduggery between class periods occurred, threats, forged letters, etc... Our class period was betrayed by the yellow team, which I recall referring to darkly as "the color of cowardice and phlegm"
posted by leotrotsky at 5:38 PM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by leotrotsky at 5:38 PM on January 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
I always feel like there's a certain failure implicit in trying to point to concrete benefits for (studying the classics/getting a degree in humanities/learning a second language/etc.) -- by accepting the premise that demonstrable benefits are the only justification, you've already lost. It's like saying that the Mona Lisa is a great painting because it's worth a lot of money, or that the old village at Cuandixia should be preserved because of all the tourist revenue it brings in.
posted by bokane at 6:23 PM on January 5, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by bokane at 6:23 PM on January 5, 2016 [9 favorites]
by accepting the premise that demonstrable benefits are the only justification, you've already lost.
I agree.
I had one of those great books educations as an undergraduate (though I was never in the slightest tempted to be a classics major). I loved reading the original texts (well, in translation of course, but at least it wasn't the textbook summary). Mostly written by men, but with a lot of diverse authors because of activism by previous generations of students and changing ideas of the canon.
It's never been directly useful for a job or economically (in fact, I am sure I would earn more if I'd had a more career-track education), but it's something that I rely on every day as part of understanding the context for the field I work in, novels I read, and so on. There's no replacing reading primary texts by amazing writers and thinkers, and I only wish I'd had the time and motivation to read twice as many.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:36 PM on January 5, 2016
I agree.
I had one of those great books educations as an undergraduate (though I was never in the slightest tempted to be a classics major). I loved reading the original texts (well, in translation of course, but at least it wasn't the textbook summary). Mostly written by men, but with a lot of diverse authors because of activism by previous generations of students and changing ideas of the canon.
It's never been directly useful for a job or economically (in fact, I am sure I would earn more if I'd had a more career-track education), but it's something that I rely on every day as part of understanding the context for the field I work in, novels I read, and so on. There's no replacing reading primary texts by amazing writers and thinkers, and I only wish I'd had the time and motivation to read twice as many.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:36 PM on January 5, 2016
> Aging past 40 or so also does the trick
Possibly true, but at an older age, and without the rhymes of history's poetry.
posted by BWA at 7:17 PM on January 5, 2016
Possibly true, but at an older age, and without the rhymes of history's poetry.
posted by BWA at 7:17 PM on January 5, 2016
« Older The forgotten slaves of Tromelin Island | Southern Culture in the Threads Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by leotrotsky at 6:56 AM on January 5, 2016 [10 favorites]