From the best meal in NYC to appealing as bongwater, Per Se loses stars
January 12, 2016 10:05 AM Subscribe
Today the New York Times revisited Per Se and dropped them from four stars to two in a brutal review. There had been rumblings: a cutting reference in Harpers (previously), rumblings on chowhound and egullet and most notably an ugly review in Eater last month. Couple that with a C grade on a health inspection last year and a half-million dollar settlement of charges they failed to pay servers the "included" service charge now attached to every meal and it seems unlikely they will ever recover their once lofty status.
But would you want it?
posted by Celsius1414 at 10:11 AM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Celsius1414 at 10:11 AM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Between the C and the fucking over servers, I've already got reservations.
posted by Etrigan at 10:12 AM on January 12, 2016 [114 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 10:12 AM on January 12, 2016 [114 favorites]
Dorsia is so hot right now
Your favorite snooty expensive restaurant sucks
posted by killdevil at 10:17 AM on January 12, 2016 [15 favorites]
Your favorite snooty expensive restaurant sucks
posted by killdevil at 10:17 AM on January 12, 2016 [15 favorites]
I literally just read that review (linked in the older thread about Senor Frog's), and wow. Someone is asleep at the wheel. As I understand it, Keller spends much more time in Napa than in New York (although the restaurants are linked by TV screens in the kitchens), so the responsibility for these terrible reviews devolves squarely onto the chef de cuisine. All I know is that if I owned this restaurant, there would have been a search for a new chef long before the NYT piece.
It does bring up, though, the difficulty of reviewing restaurants in general, and the difficulty of reviewing destination restaurants in particular: there's probably stuff being served at Per Se that would be considered fine somewhere you're dropping $100 for two people instead of ten times that, particularly if the cheaper place isn't 'known.' The thing is though, when you're charging $375 for just the dinner before wine (and the inevitable multiple-thousand-percent markups thereof), you have an absolute ironclad responsibility to deliver perfection, and then some. That goes for everyone from the night cleaner right up to the executive chef. Mistakes like this at that level--how tf you split a sabayon and still serve it I don't know--are simply inexcusable.
There's a mantra in kitchens--good enough isn't good enough. You strive for perfection even with limited resources. And, yeah, in most kitchens there is actually an acceptable range of 'good enough,' and that window gets narrower and narrower and narrower the higher up the chain you go. At somewhere with three Michelin stars--though I'd be very interested to see if that drops next year--that window is nonexistent. It's perfect or it's wrong, and there is no middle ground.
Heads are going to roll for this.
Your favorite snooty expensive restaurant sucks
it would be so nice if just once in a thread about fine dining we could avoid this. just once. consider it a belated birthday present for yours truly.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:19 AM on January 12, 2016 [103 favorites]
It does bring up, though, the difficulty of reviewing restaurants in general, and the difficulty of reviewing destination restaurants in particular: there's probably stuff being served at Per Se that would be considered fine somewhere you're dropping $100 for two people instead of ten times that, particularly if the cheaper place isn't 'known.' The thing is though, when you're charging $375 for just the dinner before wine (and the inevitable multiple-thousand-percent markups thereof), you have an absolute ironclad responsibility to deliver perfection, and then some. That goes for everyone from the night cleaner right up to the executive chef. Mistakes like this at that level--how tf you split a sabayon and still serve it I don't know--are simply inexcusable.
There's a mantra in kitchens--good enough isn't good enough. You strive for perfection even with limited resources. And, yeah, in most kitchens there is actually an acceptable range of 'good enough,' and that window gets narrower and narrower and narrower the higher up the chain you go. At somewhere with three Michelin stars--though I'd be very interested to see if that drops next year--that window is nonexistent. It's perfect or it's wrong, and there is no middle ground.
Heads are going to roll for this.
Your favorite snooty expensive restaurant sucks
it would be so nice if just once in a thread about fine dining we could avoid this. just once. consider it a belated birthday present for yours truly.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:19 AM on January 12, 2016 [103 favorites]
> As you leave, you’re handed a gift bag.
Awwww...loot bags for big people, how adorbs!
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:21 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Awwww...loot bags for big people, how adorbs!
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:21 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
I had dinner there in April and it was good, but certainly not worth the price. The NYT review is brutal, and I totally agree that the classic dishes were carrying the menu.
My boyfriend collects memorabilia from all of our dates, and when he signed the check he tried to keep the plastic pen with the Per Se logo on it, something he has done at just about every other fancy place we have been to since. The waitress asked for the pen back!
He just emailed me this review and said he knew it was all downhill after the pen incident.
posted by elvissa at 10:21 AM on January 12, 2016 [56 favorites]
My boyfriend collects memorabilia from all of our dates, and when he signed the check he tried to keep the plastic pen with the Per Se logo on it, something he has done at just about every other fancy place we have been to since. The waitress asked for the pen back!
He just emailed me this review and said he knew it was all downhill after the pen incident.
posted by elvissa at 10:21 AM on January 12, 2016 [56 favorites]
Oh also, deadlines being what they are, coupled with the need to visit a restaurant multiple times, can often mean that restaurant reviews are several months out of date.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:22 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:22 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Absolutely agree that if you're dropping big triple to four digits at Per Se, that shit needs to be on point. I am sad that Keller seems to dropping the ball on this one. But Le Bernardin? That's still awesome, right? Eric Ripert isn't gonna let me down?
posted by Kitteh at 10:24 AM on January 12, 2016
posted by Kitteh at 10:24 AM on January 12, 2016
Loot bags in fancy restaurants are pretty standard, at least in NYC. Bouley also gives them out, as does 11 Madison Park. Honestly, I always find it kind of charming, for lack of a better word, considering what you pay for the experience.
posted by holborne at 10:25 AM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by holborne at 10:25 AM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
how tf you split a sabayon and still serve it I don't know
In two bowls?
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:25 AM on January 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
In two bowls?
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:25 AM on January 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
(Le Bernadin is still awesome, don't worry.)
posted by holborne at 10:25 AM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by holborne at 10:25 AM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
2nding Le Bernadin as still being awesome ;)
posted by dabug at 10:28 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by dabug at 10:28 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Eric Ripert isn't gonna let me down?
Based on what I've read about him, he is beyond dedicated, and my wild-ass guess for why he's not more famous than he is comes down to 1) fish only, 2) his accent is indecipherable to many Americans. (Or at least TV producers think it is; I've seen him subtitled while speaking English). If his restaurant had a wider palette and his English was less accented, with those looks he'd be literally everywhere.
ps if anyone wants to take me to Le Bernardin I promise I will clean my plate
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:28 AM on January 12, 2016 [13 favorites]
Based on what I've read about him, he is beyond dedicated, and my wild-ass guess for why he's not more famous than he is comes down to 1) fish only, 2) his accent is indecipherable to many Americans. (Or at least TV producers think it is; I've seen him subtitled while speaking English). If his restaurant had a wider palette and his English was less accented, with those looks he'd be literally everywhere.
ps if anyone wants to take me to Le Bernardin I promise I will clean my plate
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:28 AM on January 12, 2016 [13 favorites]
But Le Bernardin? That's still awesome, right? Eric Ripert isn't gonna let me down?Oh yes, it is still awesome. If I had to pick one of the other elite restaurants to take a similar fall, I'd put my money on Del Posto, which I've never thought was at the level of the other NYT four stars.
posted by Lame_username at 10:30 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Go to Annisa instead. Sheesh. A friend of mine is related to the chef (by marriage), and it was one of the best "fancy" meals I've ever had in NYC. Too good, maybe...and WAY less than $3000 for a table of four!
Once you get to a certain level where you think you can't fail, that's when you fail the hardest. The hype has come back to bite Per Se in the butt.
You might as well just go to Xi'an Famous Foods and have some spicy lamb curry noodles and be done with it. At least they're consistently good.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 10:30 AM on January 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
Once you get to a certain level where you think you can't fail, that's when you fail the hardest. The hype has come back to bite Per Se in the butt.
You might as well just go to Xi'an Famous Foods and have some spicy lamb curry noodles and be done with it. At least they're consistently good.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 10:30 AM on January 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
OK, maybe Per Se has fallen a long way, but the reviewer's guest actually dropped her napkin on the floor on purpose to see what the server would do and that strikes me as horrendous.
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 10:31 AM on January 12, 2016 [25 favorites]
posted by BuddhaInABucket at 10:31 AM on January 12, 2016 [25 favorites]
fffm, I will clean your plate and everyone else's at the table if I get to be within 100 ft of Eric Ripert. Just saying...
posted by bitter-girl.com at 10:31 AM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by bitter-girl.com at 10:31 AM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
I love Eric Ripert with the passion of a thousand fiery suns. He is amazing and by god he should be insanely famous. I don't find him any harder to understand than Hubert Keller (whom I also love with the passion of a thousand fiery suns).
posted by Kitteh at 10:31 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Kitteh at 10:31 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Maybe they need to bring Guy Fieri in, shake things up a little
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:31 AM on January 12, 2016 [61 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:31 AM on January 12, 2016 [61 favorites]
I got to the split sabayon part and went :o in my head
Lubina, the European sea bass
Paired with her friend Maccullochella, the Eastern freshwater cod
posted by quaking fajita at 10:32 AM on January 12, 2016 [16 favorites]
Lubina, the European sea bass
Paired with her friend Maccullochella, the Eastern freshwater cod
posted by quaking fajita at 10:32 AM on January 12, 2016 [16 favorites]
The thing is though, when you're charging $375 for just the dinner before wine...
And the supplements seem insane. Having to make multiple additional high-price decisions during this kind of a meal is just unpleasant.
posted by mr_roboto at 10:33 AM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
And the supplements seem insane. Having to make multiple additional high-price decisions during this kind of a meal is just unpleasant.
posted by mr_roboto at 10:33 AM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Maybe they need to bring Guy Fieri in, shake things up a little
ya but then the 'supplements' would be "add a Cinnabon and two more Cinnabons"
(and let me note for a moment that I loathe the idea of 'supplements' on fine dining menus. That is where you can rightfully direct conspicuous consumerism scorn.)
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:34 AM on January 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
ya but then the 'supplements' would be "add a Cinnabon and two more Cinnabons"
(and let me note for a moment that I loathe the idea of 'supplements' on fine dining menus. That is where you can rightfully direct conspicuous consumerism scorn.)
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:34 AM on January 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
Per Se loses two stars, meanwhile McDonalds has added mozzarella sticks to their menu. So it's important to remember that in the aggregate restaurant quality is trending up
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:36 AM on January 12, 2016 [66 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:36 AM on January 12, 2016 [66 favorites]
Yes but are they bewitchingly sauced
posted by quaking fajita at 10:36 AM on January 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by quaking fajita at 10:36 AM on January 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
I never really understood the hype around any of Keller's restaurants. I've had dinner in three of them and they've been pretty Meh.
posted by Dr. Twist at 10:37 AM on January 12, 2016
posted by Dr. Twist at 10:37 AM on January 12, 2016
and let me note for a moment that I loathe the idea of 'supplements' on fine dining menus.
Yeah what is up with that? Is the prix fixe or isn't it?
posted by kenko at 10:37 AM on January 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
Yeah what is up with that? Is the prix fixe or isn't it?
posted by kenko at 10:37 AM on January 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
This is just my theory, based on nothing more than reading the reviews. But I think they are consciously or unconsciously switching from food-porn where a pleb like me is standing on the outside fantasizing about being allowed in, to shifting the perspective downwards. So more negative reviews like this, and more reviews like the Senor Frog one where the lowbrow is celebrated.
The pricetag of a dinner at Per Se has grown enormously (as detailed in the review) over the exact same timeline as inequality has been growing, and the meaning of that $3000 dinner is different today than it was some years back. We aren't quite in the torches and pitchforks era, but there are at least whiffs of smoke and sharpened dessert spoons.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:37 AM on January 12, 2016 [13 favorites]
The pricetag of a dinner at Per Se has grown enormously (as detailed in the review) over the exact same timeline as inequality has been growing, and the meaning of that $3000 dinner is different today than it was some years back. We aren't quite in the torches and pitchforks era, but there are at least whiffs of smoke and sharpened dessert spoons.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:37 AM on January 12, 2016 [13 favorites]
Last year my uncle split his sabayon trying to move a large piece of furniture. He was bedridden for month.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 10:39 AM on January 12, 2016 [40 favorites]
posted by paper chromatographologist at 10:39 AM on January 12, 2016 [40 favorites]
To split a super sabayon your power level needs to be over 9,000
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:42 AM on January 12, 2016 [58 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:42 AM on January 12, 2016 [58 favorites]
Years ago when Tiny Portions were new and chic, a full time Rome residing American bon vivant of my acquaintance was taken to some NYC restaurant of the moment and ordered gnocchi.
He got three.
He politely remonstrated, observing that while he did not doubt that these must be exquisite gnocchi indeed, their number would not qualify as even a mezza porzione in any self-respecting restaurant in Italy. The chef (Italian, as it happened) came out and after a brief conversazione all but embraced the fellow for having the guts to complain.
A new plate with more gnocchi arrived soon after.
posted by BWA at 10:43 AM on January 12, 2016 [74 favorites]
He got three.
He politely remonstrated, observing that while he did not doubt that these must be exquisite gnocchi indeed, their number would not qualify as even a mezza porzione in any self-respecting restaurant in Italy. The chef (Italian, as it happened) came out and after a brief conversazione all but embraced the fellow for having the guts to complain.
A new plate with more gnocchi arrived soon after.
posted by BWA at 10:43 AM on January 12, 2016 [74 favorites]
You can practice by splitting mayonnaise and mashed potatoes.
posted by kenko at 10:44 AM on January 12, 2016
posted by kenko at 10:44 AM on January 12, 2016
Whoa, that Eater review is savage.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:46 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:46 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Perhaps some of these chefs should introduce a practice of having a commis, or maybe even a sous-chef follow them around throughout service just to whisper "Remember you are mortal...Remember you are mortal" or "Vanity...VANITY" in their ear the entire time.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 10:48 AM on January 12, 2016 [34 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 10:48 AM on January 12, 2016 [34 favorites]
But I think they are consciously or unconsciously switching from food-porn where a pleb like me is standing on the outside fantasizing about being allowed in, to shifting the perspective downwards. So more negative reviews like this, and more reviews like the Senor Frog one where the lowbrow is celebrated.
They might be leaning more toward Roger Ebert's reviewing philosophy, which was (more or less) to judge a movie according to what it commits to being -- by giving Shrek four stars out of four, he wasn't saying "Shrek is as good a movie as The Godfather," he was saying "Shrek is an excellent animated comedy mostly for kids."
So a good review of Senor Frog might be saying "This is a good place to come and get weird Tex-Mex-esque food in a loud party atmosphere as opposed to Guy Fieri's shitshow." rather than "This is on par with Le Bernardin."
posted by Etrigan at 10:49 AM on January 12, 2016 [60 favorites]
They might be leaning more toward Roger Ebert's reviewing philosophy, which was (more or less) to judge a movie according to what it commits to being -- by giving Shrek four stars out of four, he wasn't saying "Shrek is as good a movie as The Godfather," he was saying "Shrek is an excellent animated comedy mostly for kids."
So a good review of Senor Frog might be saying "This is a good place to come and get weird Tex-Mex-esque food in a loud party atmosphere as opposed to Guy Fieri's shitshow." rather than "This is on par with Le Bernardin."
posted by Etrigan at 10:49 AM on January 12, 2016 [60 favorites]
Having seen plenty of sketchy places that manage an A or B from the city health inspectors, I shudder to think what it would take to earn a C rating. Human centipede in the walk-in? Box labeled "pigeon feces" teetering ominously near the mis en place?
posted by dr_dank at 10:53 AM on January 12, 2016 [48 favorites]
posted by dr_dank at 10:53 AM on January 12, 2016 [48 favorites]
That Eater review is actually dated December 2014.
posted by skycrashesdown at 10:55 AM on January 12, 2016
posted by skycrashesdown at 10:55 AM on January 12, 2016
I love food, and I appreciate fine dining as much as anyone, but $3000 for a table of four? Surely there's a point somewhere around $200 per person that one starts to experience diminishing returns.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:56 AM on January 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:56 AM on January 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
I mean of course the marginal value curve has a slope .
that doesn't mean the best possible 4k meal can't be much better than the 800 meal.
posted by JPD at 11:00 AM on January 12, 2016
that doesn't mean the best possible 4k meal can't be much better than the 800 meal.
posted by JPD at 11:00 AM on January 12, 2016
Witchen the per se kitchen is notoriously over specced. My guess is they got caught doing some prep in an area not set up for that use.
posted by JPD at 11:02 AM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by JPD at 11:02 AM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
the reviewer's guest actually dropped her napkin on the floor on purpose to see what the server would do and that strikes me as horrendous.
They're reviewers, they're testing the service.
I've seen lots of guests do much worse at even destination restaurants. A small rebellion as a test of service is worth it, expected perhaps, in a good review. Like letting glasses go unattended for a course, like an argumentative sommelier, it's symptomatic of a front of house that's really out of control. None of those problems of service wouldn't stand in our favourite family-run establishment down the street; they're kind of train-wreck horrifying at a place like Per Se.
posted by bonehead at 11:09 AM on January 12, 2016 [16 favorites]
They're reviewers, they're testing the service.
I've seen lots of guests do much worse at even destination restaurants. A small rebellion as a test of service is worth it, expected perhaps, in a good review. Like letting glasses go unattended for a course, like an argumentative sommelier, it's symptomatic of a front of house that's really out of control. None of those problems of service wouldn't stand in our favourite family-run establishment down the street; they're kind of train-wreck horrifying at a place like Per Se.
posted by bonehead at 11:09 AM on January 12, 2016 [16 favorites]
For a hot minute I thought this place appeared in American Psycho. Whoops.
posted by pxe2000 at 11:11 AM on January 12, 2016
posted by pxe2000 at 11:11 AM on January 12, 2016
teetering ominously near the mis en place
I can't pinpoint why but I love this phrase, and plan to work it into an appropriate conversation as soon as I get a chance.
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:13 AM on January 12, 2016 [21 favorites]
I can't pinpoint why but I love this phrase, and plan to work it into an appropriate conversation as soon as I get a chance.
posted by Greg_Ace at 11:13 AM on January 12, 2016 [21 favorites]
the reviewer's guest actually dropped her napkin on the floor on purpose to see what the server would do and that strikes me as horrendous.
The review says she "hurled it to the floor in a fit of disillusionment" which is not necessarily any better, but I don't think she was trying to test the waitstaff.
posted by peacheater at 11:14 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
The review says she "hurled it to the floor in a fit of disillusionment" which is not necessarily any better, but I don't think she was trying to test the waitstaff.
posted by peacheater at 11:14 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Either way, she's acting like a ridiculous Edwardian lady. I wouldn't do that at a damn Taco Bell.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:20 AM on January 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 11:20 AM on January 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
MetaFilter: Teetering ominously near the mis en place.
posted by w0mbat at 11:22 AM on January 12, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by w0mbat at 11:22 AM on January 12, 2016 [20 favorites]
I wouldn't do that at a damn Taco Bell.
Just don't try to pay with a $2 bill.
posted by bonehead at 11:22 AM on January 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
Just don't try to pay with a $2 bill.
posted by bonehead at 11:22 AM on January 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
I just checked out their menu out of curiousity. I think everything I've read so far misses the key crime here which is the gratuitous use of quotation marks around random words that do not appear to be quotations. Sometimes there is only one quotation mark, which you'd think might cut the crime in half, but somehow that makes it worse.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 11:23 AM on January 12, 2016 [22 favorites]
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 11:23 AM on January 12, 2016 [22 favorites]
Haven't you heard of the new Ersatz Cuisine? It's "delicious."
posted by overeducated_alligator at 11:24 AM on January 12, 2016 [23 favorites]
posted by overeducated_alligator at 11:24 AM on January 12, 2016 [23 favorites]
No matter -- I'll always have the Four Seasons. I don't need anyplace else.
Why are you looking at me like that? What?
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:26 AM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Why are you looking at me like that? What?
posted by Capt. Renault at 11:26 AM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think everything I've read so far misses the key crime here which is the gratuitous use of quotation marks around random words that do not appear to be quotations.
In the Mission Chinese Cookbook, Danny Bowien talks about how much he hates that, and how his little act of rebellion was to add to the menu "Chinese 'Barbecue'" [sic, with both single and double quotes], which was just normal barbecue that he happened to be serving at his Chinese restaurant.
posted by Itaxpica at 11:27 AM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
In the Mission Chinese Cookbook, Danny Bowien talks about how much he hates that, and how his little act of rebellion was to add to the menu "Chinese 'Barbecue'" [sic, with both single and double quotes], which was just normal barbecue that he happened to be serving at his Chinese restaurant.
posted by Itaxpica at 11:27 AM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Wow, that's incredibly fucking bizarre. Is that a foodie thing? I mean, when I see "compote", I think imitation compote? what the fuck is that? Gross! which can't be the intention.
posted by selfnoise at 11:30 AM on January 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by selfnoise at 11:30 AM on January 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
Sometimes there is only one quotation mark, which you'd think might cut the crime in half, but somehow that makes it worse.
They definitely take it too far. In their defense, though, what you've linked to appears to be someone's transcription, and the actual menu posted at the restaurant site doesn't have the same egregious typographical errors.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:30 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
They definitely take it too far. In their defense, though, what you've linked to appears to be someone's transcription, and the actual menu posted at the restaurant site doesn't have the same egregious typographical errors.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:30 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
gratuitous use of quotation marks around random words that do not appear to be quotations
This is a Thing on fine dining menus. It indicates that what you're getting will be the general idea/shape/texture of the air-quoted thing, but not made in the traditional manner. If you look at the recipe for oysters and pearls you'll note that while you're getting the same texture as a sabayon, it is not made in the textbook fashion. It's half in-joke, half setting expectations.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:31 AM on January 12, 2016 [15 favorites]
This is a Thing on fine dining menus. It indicates that what you're getting will be the general idea/shape/texture of the air-quoted thing, but not made in the traditional manner. If you look at the recipe for oysters and pearls you'll note that while you're getting the same texture as a sabayon, it is not made in the textbook fashion. It's half in-joke, half setting expectations.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:31 AM on January 12, 2016 [15 favorites]
the smell of smoke and sharpened dessert spoons
Don't go giving Heston Blumenthal any more ideas.
posted by cromagnon at 11:33 AM on January 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
Don't go giving Heston Blumenthal any more ideas.
posted by cromagnon at 11:33 AM on January 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
I note in the NY Times review that while Per Se did drop from four stars to two, their star rating starts at "good." Which is impressive grade inflation.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:33 AM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:33 AM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
The pricetag of a dinner at Per Se has grown enormously (as detailed in the review) over the exact same timeline as inequality has been growing, and the meaning of that $3000 dinner is different today than it was some years back.
Excellent point -- dining at Per Se has become preeminently a marker of elite status.
If the food were to be good on top of that, it would actually dilute the brand.
Uncharacteristically backward of the NYT to fail to recognize this.
posted by jamjam at 11:34 AM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Excellent point -- dining at Per Se has become preeminently a marker of elite status.
If the food were to be good on top of that, it would actually dilute the brand.
Uncharacteristically backward of the NYT to fail to recognize this.
posted by jamjam at 11:34 AM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I just checked out their menu out of curiousity. I think everything I've read so far misses the key crime here which is the gratuitous use of quotation marks around random words that do not appear to be quotations.
I was thinking that the blame for the weird punctuation had to lie with the dodgy menu aggregator site linked to, but even the official menu for yesterday has appalling typography crimes.
What bothers me more than the superfluous quotation marks around things is when commas get put INSIDE the quotes, e.g.
"Pommes Purée," Black Trumpet Mushrooms, Sweet Carrots and Vin Jaune Emulsion
The third language crime is saying "pommes purée" at a non-French restaurant when you could just say "mashed potatoes".
posted by w0mbat at 11:36 AM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
I was thinking that the blame for the weird punctuation had to lie with the dodgy menu aggregator site linked to, but even the official menu for yesterday has appalling typography crimes.
What bothers me more than the superfluous quotation marks around things is when commas get put INSIDE the quotes, e.g.
"Pommes Purée," Black Trumpet Mushrooms, Sweet Carrots and Vin Jaune Emulsion
The third language crime is saying "pommes purée" at a non-French restaurant when you could just say "mashed potatoes".
posted by w0mbat at 11:36 AM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
No matter -- I'll always have the Four Seasons.
Actually I believe the Grill Room at the Four Seasons just closed.
posted by cell divide at 11:36 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Actually I believe the Grill Room at the Four Seasons just closed.
posted by cell divide at 11:36 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm not exactly the target market (in fact, I'd make fun of the target market) but fucking over employees earns an instant lifetime ban from me. Not really relevant for these guys, but there's a local chain in my town who got hit with a suit over labor violations. That got them on my lifetime ban + badmouth list.
posted by Mitrovarr at 11:39 AM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Mitrovarr at 11:39 AM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
The excess quotation marks are to let the reader to know those items should be pronounced in your very best Lynne Rossetto Kasper voice.
posted by peeedro at 11:39 AM on January 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by peeedro at 11:39 AM on January 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
What bothers me more than the superfluous quotation marks around things is when commas get put INSIDE the quotes
In English, commas (and other punctuation) always go inside the quotation marks in American English, and are bipunctual in UK English. In Canada we tend to use the American style.
The third language crime is saying "pommes purée" at a non-French restaurant when you could just say "mashed potatoes"
Keller is very, very deeply trained in classical (Escoffier) French cuisine. That comes with certain traditions.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:40 AM on January 12, 2016 [15 favorites]
In English, commas (and other punctuation) always go inside the quotation marks in American English, and are bipunctual in UK English. In Canada we tend to use the American style.
The third language crime is saying "pommes purée" at a non-French restaurant when you could just say "mashed potatoes"
Keller is very, very deeply trained in classical (Escoffier) French cuisine. That comes with certain traditions.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:40 AM on January 12, 2016 [15 favorites]
I note in the NY Times review that while Per Se did drop from four stars to two, their star rating starts at "good." Which is impressive grade inflation.
It doesn't start at one star; it starts at zero stars, which is "poor-satisfactory".
posted by mr_roboto at 11:41 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
It doesn't start at one star; it starts at zero stars, which is "poor-satisfactory".
posted by mr_roboto at 11:41 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
(Here's an example of a zero-star review. Note that the reviewer does indicate a rating of "fair" to place it in the poor-satisfactory spectrum.)
posted by mr_roboto at 11:44 AM on January 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by mr_roboto at 11:44 AM on January 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
The level of rancor and entitlement in these reviews - man. The NYT one should be included as an appendix to the next edition of The Denial of Death.
posted by ryanshepard at 11:45 AM on January 12, 2016
posted by ryanshepard at 11:45 AM on January 12, 2016
w0mbat: "The third language crime is saying "pommes purée" at a non-French restaurant when you could just say "mashed potatoes".
"
On that note, gathered greens has become the Portland, OR equivalent language crime for salad.
posted by wcfields at 11:49 AM on January 12, 2016 [25 favorites]
"
On that note, gathered greens has become the Portland, OR equivalent language crime for salad.
posted by wcfields at 11:49 AM on January 12, 2016 [25 favorites]
Yes, this is modeled after Michelin. In France, getting even one star is regarded as an accomplishment. In NYC there are only 76 starred restaurants in the Michelin. 60 have one star.
posted by OmieWise at 11:54 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by OmieWise at 11:54 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Need to bring in Emeril. Bam! He could kick things up a notch...
posted by twsf at 11:55 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by twsf at 11:55 AM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
I have long maintained that once you've gotten in line to eat fast food, you've lost your right to complain. Fries are cold? Dude, you went to Burger King. that's just what happens sometimes. Got mcnuggets instead of a big mac? Dude, you went through the mcdonalds drive thru. Take whatever they give you and move on. No bellyaching allowed.
Curiously, I find I have the same attitude toward anyone who's going to spend $3000 on a meal for four.
posted by the bricabrac man at 11:55 AM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Curiously, I find I have the same attitude toward anyone who's going to spend $3000 on a meal for four.
posted by the bricabrac man at 11:55 AM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I can't speak to the food, but the service issues listed in these reviews really highlight the difference between the fanciest places I've eaten and really fine dining. I don't think I would've noticed any of that stuff. But I've also never even dreamed of eating somewhere as fancy as Per Se, so perhaps my expectations of what constitutes good service at that level of dining are too low.
posted by Anonymous at 11:58 AM on January 12, 2016
posted by Anonymous at 11:58 AM on January 12, 2016
"Haricot vert" in random non-French restaurants is my favorite.
posted by kmz at 11:58 AM on January 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by kmz at 11:58 AM on January 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
Wow, so sad to hear what happened to Per Se. I always planned to eat there someday, now I'm not so sure.
I think it's context, we had a wonderful experience at Bouchon in Vegas, but we also didn't get hit with multiple supplements. It sounds so distasteful.
posted by honey badger at 12:05 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think it's context, we had a wonderful experience at Bouchon in Vegas, but we also didn't get hit with multiple supplements. It sounds so distasteful.
posted by honey badger at 12:05 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Do you have any idea how many staff and how much research time it takes to serve that $3000 meal for four?
We'll start with ingredients first. All food has been on a price increase for some time. Partly the drought in California, partly oil prices. Per Se is pretty picky about sourcing ingredients, which means virtually everything is coming from small farms and producers. Those are expensive. Nothing at Per Se is coming out of a Sysco truck. (Maybe vegetable oil, saran wrap, parchment).
Then the staff. There may only be 16 tables in the dining room--there are at least that many people working in the kitchen on a daily basis, and probably double that number in the front of house.
Then there's actually developing the dishes. Restaurants at that level aren't just going "eh, we'll make whatever." They have a repertoire they can draw on, sure--and nothing is being served in that dining room unless it's been made, tasted, refined, remade, and retasted. That, too, costs time and money.
When you are making literally everything on every plate from scratch, that also takes time and money and a lot of hands doing the work.
I'd be really surprised if Per Se had fewer than 50 people working on any given day. Hell, I work in a pretty laid-back place with 34 seats, and we have four in the kitchen (Chef, me, another line cook, dishwasher) and 2-5 in the dining room depending on the night. (Bartender + server/s).
Plus the rent for that place is astronomical. Less money is lining rich pockets than you might think. I mean, I take part of your point--as discussed upthread the supplements are just outrageous in their pricing. But margins in restaurants are way, way thinner than most people realize. The further you get away from fast food, the thinner those margins are.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:05 PM on January 12, 2016 [40 favorites]
We'll start with ingredients first. All food has been on a price increase for some time. Partly the drought in California, partly oil prices. Per Se is pretty picky about sourcing ingredients, which means virtually everything is coming from small farms and producers. Those are expensive. Nothing at Per Se is coming out of a Sysco truck. (Maybe vegetable oil, saran wrap, parchment).
Then the staff. There may only be 16 tables in the dining room--there are at least that many people working in the kitchen on a daily basis, and probably double that number in the front of house.
Then there's actually developing the dishes. Restaurants at that level aren't just going "eh, we'll make whatever." They have a repertoire they can draw on, sure--and nothing is being served in that dining room unless it's been made, tasted, refined, remade, and retasted. That, too, costs time and money.
When you are making literally everything on every plate from scratch, that also takes time and money and a lot of hands doing the work.
I'd be really surprised if Per Se had fewer than 50 people working on any given day. Hell, I work in a pretty laid-back place with 34 seats, and we have four in the kitchen (Chef, me, another line cook, dishwasher) and 2-5 in the dining room depending on the night. (Bartender + server/s).
Plus the rent for that place is astronomical. Less money is lining rich pockets than you might think. I mean, I take part of your point--as discussed upthread the supplements are just outrageous in their pricing. But margins in restaurants are way, way thinner than most people realize. The further you get away from fast food, the thinner those margins are.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:05 PM on January 12, 2016 [40 favorites]
I used to want to do one of these super fancy places one time in my life, but honestly at this point I think I'm sort of over it. I mean, I'll still spend way too much money at a nice sushi place or whatever, but otherwise I'm just thinking about how many Hamilton tickets I could be getting instead of a Michelin starred meal.
Still might try for Alinea one of these days. I guess I'm still a bit of a Chicago homer, even though I only lived there for 3 years.
posted by kmz at 12:05 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Still might try for Alinea one of these days. I guess I'm still a bit of a Chicago homer, even though I only lived there for 3 years.
posted by kmz at 12:05 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
For those of us who don't dine super-fancy -- "supplements" is side dishes/toppings, right?
posted by Etrigan at 12:08 PM on January 12, 2016
posted by Etrigan at 12:08 PM on January 12, 2016
I can't speak to the food, but the service issues listed in these reviews really highlight the difference between the fanciest places I've eaten and really fine dining.
Well, I think that's part of the issue here. This is not like a good restaurant just pricier, it's in a separate sort of category. That category is partly established by price, and partly by aspiration. There is a great moment in a memoir by MFK Fisher where she and a friend go to a restaurant in Paris (I may be misremembering this a bit) that has started to slide, but at which they used to be regulars. Her evidence for the slide is that the fine old waiter who had taken such good care of them in the past significantly over-pours their after dinner brandy (or whatever). Getting more isn't good, it's a sign that the appropriate forms are not being followed.
I've eaten some pretty decent food, but I more and more think that it's like audiophile listening. Without the experience around it, the food itself is much less remarkable. The best meal I've ever eaten was fresh fried perch pulled out of the lake we ate next to about half hour before dinner. First we fried the bacon, then we split the grease and made some fried potatoes in one pan and the fried fish in the other. I still think about it 30 years later.
The issue for me in these things is not the the standards are bogus, or that the tastes are too finely sliced, I get that in each sub-culture levels of communication occur that are only available to those in the sub-culture. The issue is that there is no way for me not to see the price as fundamentally about showing that one has the ability to pay it. I don't think this has always been true of fine dining, but I could be wrong.
posted by OmieWise at 12:09 PM on January 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
Well, I think that's part of the issue here. This is not like a good restaurant just pricier, it's in a separate sort of category. That category is partly established by price, and partly by aspiration. There is a great moment in a memoir by MFK Fisher where she and a friend go to a restaurant in Paris (I may be misremembering this a bit) that has started to slide, but at which they used to be regulars. Her evidence for the slide is that the fine old waiter who had taken such good care of them in the past significantly over-pours their after dinner brandy (or whatever). Getting more isn't good, it's a sign that the appropriate forms are not being followed.
I've eaten some pretty decent food, but I more and more think that it's like audiophile listening. Without the experience around it, the food itself is much less remarkable. The best meal I've ever eaten was fresh fried perch pulled out of the lake we ate next to about half hour before dinner. First we fried the bacon, then we split the grease and made some fried potatoes in one pan and the fried fish in the other. I still think about it 30 years later.
The issue for me in these things is not the the standards are bogus, or that the tastes are too finely sliced, I get that in each sub-culture levels of communication occur that are only available to those in the sub-culture. The issue is that there is no way for me not to see the price as fundamentally about showing that one has the ability to pay it. I don't think this has always been true of fine dining, but I could be wrong.
posted by OmieWise at 12:09 PM on January 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
"Haricot vert"
Classic French-style green beans are a bit slimmer and longer than the usual ones in the grocery markets, but they are the same sort of snap bean. Still, it's enough of a difference that it's not a completely indefensible thing to do.
posted by bonehead at 12:09 PM on January 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
Classic French-style green beans are a bit slimmer and longer than the usual ones in the grocery markets, but they are the same sort of snap bean. Still, it's enough of a difference that it's not a completely indefensible thing to do.
posted by bonehead at 12:09 PM on January 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
god I get such a particular pleasure reading harsh reviews of obscenely expensive restaurants, call it schadenfood, it's more nourishing than any amount of pommes puree
posted by generalist at 12:11 PM on January 12, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by generalist at 12:11 PM on January 12, 2016 [20 favorites]
For those of us who don't dine super-fancy -- "supplements" is side dishes/toppings, right?
It's getting bacon on your cheeseburger for a buck extra, or upgrading from fries to a Ceasar salad.
The thing is, these are prix fixe---fixed price---menus, not a la carte. Charging for extras rather goes against the whole spirit of it.
posted by bonehead at 12:12 PM on January 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
It's getting bacon on your cheeseburger for a buck extra, or upgrading from fries to a Ceasar salad.
The thing is, these are prix fixe---fixed price---menus, not a la carte. Charging for extras rather goes against the whole spirit of it.
posted by bonehead at 12:12 PM on January 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
For those who predictably show up to these threads to sneer, take a moment to think about the massively dedicated and extraordinarily skilled people who work in those kitchens.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:14 PM on January 12, 2016 [29 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:14 PM on January 12, 2016 [29 favorites]
Sometimes they are toppings (eg adding truffles). More commonly it's an additional charge for a particularly expensive option within a course. For example, there might be a fish course with a few different fish options then a dish with with caviar, marked as an additional $x. The price of the regular dishes is included in the price of the meal. The caviar dish costs extra. Common supplements are truffles, caviar, and foie gras.
It's rarely an entire additional dish.
They're also seen in wine pairings, where there might be an option for a particularly expensive glass.
posted by jedicus at 12:14 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
It's rarely an entire additional dish.
They're also seen in wine pairings, where there might be an option for a particularly expensive glass.
posted by jedicus at 12:14 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
For those of us who don't dine super-fancy -- "supplements" is side dishes/toppings, right?
When you eat at Per Se you pay a flat per-plate fee for a multi-course meal, but for some of the courses you get a choice between two dishes, and often one of those dishes will cost more. For instance you can get salad, or risotto with shaved white truffle – for just a three-figure bump in the check.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:14 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
When you eat at Per Se you pay a flat per-plate fee for a multi-course meal, but for some of the courses you get a choice between two dishes, and often one of those dishes will cost more. For instance you can get salad, or risotto with shaved white truffle – for just a three-figure bump in the check.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:14 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Nothing at Per Se is coming out of a Sysco truck. (Maybe vegetable oil, saran wrap, parchment).
Oil of rapeseed, squeezed from the fist of an aged peasant clenched in virtuous anger while remembering ancestral injustices . . . $89/tbsp.
Hand-pulled clingfilm . . . $220/yard
Aged parchemin, previously used by a Hungarian priest to record refutations of Bogomilist heresies . . . $1,075/sheet
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:20 PM on January 12, 2016 [80 favorites]
Oil of rapeseed, squeezed from the fist of an aged peasant clenched in virtuous anger while remembering ancestral injustices . . . $89/tbsp.
Hand-pulled clingfilm . . . $220/yard
Aged parchemin, previously used by a Hungarian priest to record refutations of Bogomilist heresies . . . $1,075/sheet
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:20 PM on January 12, 2016 [80 favorites]
Certified contempt of server, handed down from generation to generation, served with a generous sneer at customer expectations . . . priceless.
posted by delfin at 12:23 PM on January 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by delfin at 12:23 PM on January 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
Haricot vert really are basically a different thing; if you put that on a menu and what shows up on your plate is a thick green bean, you'd be right to think yourself the victim of a bait and switch. Like if the menu says "lentilles du Puy" and you get some standard-issue green lentil—it isn't the same thing.
posted by kenko at 12:24 PM on January 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by kenko at 12:24 PM on January 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
I spent a lot of money on dinner at Noma a few months ago and it was one of the most memorable experiences of my life - completely and totally worth it. The food was really interesting and beautifully served and the service was friendly, impeccable, and unpretentious, but most importantly it was fun. Everyone there, diners and staff alike, knew it was a special experience and it felt like we were in a secret club of awesomeness together.
Nobody in any of the links above seems to be having any fun. Now maybe that's because they're all pissed off at not getting their money's worth, but most of them don't really give me the impression they'd be having fun even if the experience met their expectations. And I'm not sure what the point is if spending that much on dinner isn't fun, because when it comes to efficient deliciousness the strawberry tart I bought in a street market the day after Noma was just as good. Maybe if you aren't a person for whom dropping that amount of money on dinner is kind of a big deal - or someone who makes their living writing restaurant reviews for the New York Times - you lose the sense of fun? I don't know. But I don't want to be that person. I want a feeling of delight to accompany my $700 meal, goddammit.
posted by something something at 12:25 PM on January 12, 2016 [23 favorites]
Nobody in any of the links above seems to be having any fun. Now maybe that's because they're all pissed off at not getting their money's worth, but most of them don't really give me the impression they'd be having fun even if the experience met their expectations. And I'm not sure what the point is if spending that much on dinner isn't fun, because when it comes to efficient deliciousness the strawberry tart I bought in a street market the day after Noma was just as good. Maybe if you aren't a person for whom dropping that amount of money on dinner is kind of a big deal - or someone who makes their living writing restaurant reviews for the New York Times - you lose the sense of fun? I don't know. But I don't want to be that person. I want a feeling of delight to accompany my $700 meal, goddammit.
posted by something something at 12:25 PM on January 12, 2016 [23 favorites]
I was lucky enough (which is to say amazingly lucky) to attend a visiting chef event at my local university about a decade ago, which essentially meant the Per Se staff (including Keller) took over the hospitality program's kitchens and served highlights from their menu (ostensibly these are teaching events, but I don't think the local students got to do much but watch from the sidelines).
It was one of the best meals of my life, and it cost a fraction of what I would have paid to eat at Per Se. That the restaurant itself has fallen so very far in the intervening years makes me very sad.
(And to whoever was snarking about loot bags: snark all ya want, my friend, but ours contained the best macarons I have ever eaten.)
posted by aught at 12:28 PM on January 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
It was one of the best meals of my life, and it cost a fraction of what I would have paid to eat at Per Se. That the restaurant itself has fallen so very far in the intervening years makes me very sad.
(And to whoever was snarking about loot bags: snark all ya want, my friend, but ours contained the best macarons I have ever eaten.)
posted by aught at 12:28 PM on January 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
There's a weird defensiveness in this thread that is starting to seem less like the review and more like "how dare people eat at fancy restaurants ever and at all those jewel-encrusted bajillionaires". Listen, I can count on one hand the number of posh (perhaps not Per Se posh but still pretty damn posh) meals I have been able to eat and I have never made more than an admin assistant's salary (and shit, nothing near what the pro admin folks make). For people like me, who love to talk about/read about/dream about food, reviews like this invaluable for when we save up money to go to these places. It's gonna be a once in a lifetime thing for us and yes, we hope it's worth those moments. Lots of folks buy tickets to sports events, festivals, cruises, etc, and some folks do that for food. Sure, there are rich assholes who are gonna eat at places at Per Se every night without thinking about the $4K+ they drop on those meals but I guarantee they never appreciate it like those of us who save up money for those meals do.
posted by Kitteh at 12:32 PM on January 12, 2016 [78 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 12:32 PM on January 12, 2016 [78 favorites]
The best restaurant I've actually ever eaten dinner at was a place called Monsieur Paul at EPCOT. I think we dropped about $400 for the two of us. Best service I have ever had, and the food was astounding. It's really fun to do "fine dining" every blue moon if you can. But it has to be great.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:37 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:37 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Surely there's a point somewhere around $200 per person that one starts to experience diminishing returns.
No need for the food quality "return" to keep rising past a certain point; there are just a LOT more stupidly rich people now who are glad, eager even, to drop four figures on a meal. It's the food equivalent of upper-end Manhattan real estate.
posted by aught at 12:38 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
No need for the food quality "return" to keep rising past a certain point; there are just a LOT more stupidly rich people now who are glad, eager even, to drop four figures on a meal. It's the food equivalent of upper-end Manhattan real estate.
posted by aught at 12:38 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
When you are making literally everything on every plate from scratch, that also takes time and money and a lot of hands doing the work.
How many of those hands are unpaid stagiaires do you think?
posted by STFUDonnie at 12:39 PM on January 12, 2016
How many of those hands are unpaid stagiaires do you think?
posted by STFUDonnie at 12:39 PM on January 12, 2016
Unpaid? Probably not a lot. Grossly underpaid? All of 'em.
posted by kenko at 12:41 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by kenko at 12:41 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
At Per Se, I'm not sure. Alinea has a lot, the Laundry usually has around a dozen-ish.
It's the food equivalent of upper-end Manhattan real estate.
Sigh. No.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:42 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's the food equivalent of upper-end Manhattan real estate.
Sigh. No.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:42 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Plus the rent for that place is astronomical. Less money is lining rich pockets than you might think.
Dude, you just contradicted yourself in two adjacent sentences.
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:45 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Dude, you just contradicted yourself in two adjacent sentences.
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:45 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
If you make your food about status, you will attract customers who have particular values about taste. Knocking down a couple of stars may change their clientele for their betterment as an institution. Who knows in another four years.
Back when I was eating around in NYC, I kept returning to Per se because every meal had something that made me rethink what achievements are possible in food and cooking. I'll credit their system for conveying that.
posted by polymodus at 12:45 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Back when I was eating around in NYC, I kept returning to Per se because every meal had something that made me rethink what achievements are possible in food and cooking. I'll credit their system for conveying that.
posted by polymodus at 12:45 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Surely there's a point somewhere around $200 per person that one starts to experience diminishing returns.
No need for the food quality "return" to keep rising past a certain point; there are just a LOT more stupidly rich people now who are glad, eager even, to drop four figures on a meal. It's the food equivalent of upper-end Manhattan real estate.
Yeah, I think the point of the reviews/discussion here is that it isn't about the food necessarily. After $200 per person you are not dropping money on the food itself, you're paying for the entire experience, including whether the servers notice that you have dropped your napkin. It isn't about "stupidly rich" people who want to just "drop four figures" for regular food. They are paying for the snazziness. I think these reviews are justified myself; I'll never make enough money to eat at one of these places, but if I did and I felt like I could have paid a little less money and just dealt with having an empty wine glass, I'd be a bit irked too.
posted by chainsofreedom at 12:46 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
No need for the food quality "return" to keep rising past a certain point; there are just a LOT more stupidly rich people now who are glad, eager even, to drop four figures on a meal. It's the food equivalent of upper-end Manhattan real estate.
Yeah, I think the point of the reviews/discussion here is that it isn't about the food necessarily. After $200 per person you are not dropping money on the food itself, you're paying for the entire experience, including whether the servers notice that you have dropped your napkin. It isn't about "stupidly rich" people who want to just "drop four figures" for regular food. They are paying for the snazziness. I think these reviews are justified myself; I'll never make enough money to eat at one of these places, but if I did and I felt like I could have paid a little less money and just dealt with having an empty wine glass, I'd be a bit irked too.
posted by chainsofreedom at 12:46 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm with Kitteh about the weird snobbishness in some of the comments in this thread. Look, I've certainly never eaten at Per Se or spent more than $150 on any particular meal (and that is FAR from what I spend on an average meal out, even now that I live in Manhattan), but it's definitely a dream of mine.
Why do people feel the need to come in and make cutting remarks about what for some people (like me) is a dream/luxury? If we're going to go down this path, I think that dropping an equal amount of $$$ on front-row season tickets for live sports games, or bottle service in exclusive nightclubs, or first-class airplane tickets, are absolute ludicrous wastes of money (especially sports for me).
Yet I don't go into threads about sports or nightlife or airline travel and shit on the fact that people are willing to spend tons of money on their preferred or wished-for luxury in life. But somehow because we all have to eat it seems to give people license to make fun of the fact that yes, there are some of us for whom food is more important and a hobby/love/pastime. I just don't get it.
posted by andrewesque at 12:46 PM on January 12, 2016 [40 favorites]
Why do people feel the need to come in and make cutting remarks about what for some people (like me) is a dream/luxury? If we're going to go down this path, I think that dropping an equal amount of $$$ on front-row season tickets for live sports games, or bottle service in exclusive nightclubs, or first-class airplane tickets, are absolute ludicrous wastes of money (especially sports for me).
Yet I don't go into threads about sports or nightlife or airline travel and shit on the fact that people are willing to spend tons of money on their preferred or wished-for luxury in life. But somehow because we all have to eat it seems to give people license to make fun of the fact that yes, there are some of us for whom food is more important and a hobby/love/pastime. I just don't get it.
posted by andrewesque at 12:46 PM on January 12, 2016 [40 favorites]
I just did the math on a posh meal I have eaten: River Cafe, London, UK, late September 2010. For the two of us, I would guess the meal came to about 150 pounds? (My keyboard doesn't have the pound symbol, apologies.) The food was incredible and worth every penny, but what made it truly special is that it was our first trip together overseas (his sister's wedding; she married an Englishman). We were still newlyweds and that walk along the Thames to and from the restaurant on a cool London night is still talked about all these years later. It was the experience and the food for us.
posted by Kitteh at 12:48 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 12:48 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
I live in Manhattan, and I'd say we drop more than $150 per meal maybe twice a year (and spent probably half that on a regular night now). And are righteously pissed off if the service is bad or the restaurant is loud, etc. It's all about the entire night.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:48 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:48 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
1) Expensive restaurants held in high regard are more often than not worth it. Given the choice between a 2 Michelin star restaurant and going to an NFL game, the restaurant wins every time. It's not just food, it's a form of recreation. It's a well constructed experience from the time that you walk in the door. Fortunately more restaurants are starting to figure that out and are just doing ticketed seating in advance, which I love.
2) Loot bags are a thing and they're usually pretty nice.
3) "Hahaha, rich people being rich!"... Not necessarily. Again, a form of recreation. Some people blow their money on 200 inch TVs, others blow disposable income on really nice meals. I've met some rich people who dine regularly at Per Se and they're sometimes snooty bastards but most are really there for the experience and maybe do this kind of stuff once every 6 months. Don't be dicks. Recent economic trends aside, the "middle class" cuts through huge swaths of the population. There are people in the middle class who have 5 kids and are saddled with student debt, etc etc etc. There are also people in the middle class who have no kids, comparatively little debt and can occasionally eat at nice places. Don't begrudge them that. Again, it relates largely to how that income is allocated.
4) There's plenty of great cheap food and great experiences to go along with it. There's something to be said for eating with your toes in the sand and there's also something to be said for having your wine glass filled without you even noticing.
5) It doesn't sound like Per Se has held up that well and has crossed the line over to being expensive for being expensive's sake, which is sometimes a problem in New York. I've spent nearly as much as Per Se charges on other meals and the experience and food has been sublime and worth it. It sounds like eating at Per Se would just make me sad at this point.
6) My ex worked at Bouchon briefly and had her orientation in Per Se, part of which included a tour of the kitchen. People are already working feverishly first thing in the morning on prep for the night's dinner. A lot of the chefs there aren't even there for dinner service. She's never seen a cleaner kitchen or food prep area. A lot of the health standards are kind of unreasonable. Meat must be held at a proper temperature, but that's not necessarily the best temperature for actually cooking it, etc. If health codes are followed 100%, the food can actually suffer.
7) Again, food is a hobby for some people. Don't be a dick.
posted by mikesch at 12:51 PM on January 12, 2016 [23 favorites]
2) Loot bags are a thing and they're usually pretty nice.
3) "Hahaha, rich people being rich!"... Not necessarily. Again, a form of recreation. Some people blow their money on 200 inch TVs, others blow disposable income on really nice meals. I've met some rich people who dine regularly at Per Se and they're sometimes snooty bastards but most are really there for the experience and maybe do this kind of stuff once every 6 months. Don't be dicks. Recent economic trends aside, the "middle class" cuts through huge swaths of the population. There are people in the middle class who have 5 kids and are saddled with student debt, etc etc etc. There are also people in the middle class who have no kids, comparatively little debt and can occasionally eat at nice places. Don't begrudge them that. Again, it relates largely to how that income is allocated.
4) There's plenty of great cheap food and great experiences to go along with it. There's something to be said for eating with your toes in the sand and there's also something to be said for having your wine glass filled without you even noticing.
5) It doesn't sound like Per Se has held up that well and has crossed the line over to being expensive for being expensive's sake, which is sometimes a problem in New York. I've spent nearly as much as Per Se charges on other meals and the experience and food has been sublime and worth it. It sounds like eating at Per Se would just make me sad at this point.
6) My ex worked at Bouchon briefly and had her orientation in Per Se, part of which included a tour of the kitchen. People are already working feverishly first thing in the morning on prep for the night's dinner. A lot of the chefs there aren't even there for dinner service. She's never seen a cleaner kitchen or food prep area. A lot of the health standards are kind of unreasonable. Meat must be held at a proper temperature, but that's not necessarily the best temperature for actually cooking it, etc. If health codes are followed 100%, the food can actually suffer.
7) Again, food is a hobby for some people. Don't be a dick.
posted by mikesch at 12:51 PM on January 12, 2016 [23 favorites]
Need to bring in Emeril. Bam! He could kick things up a notch...
While Emeril's Food TV persona seems more like Guy Fieri than Eric Ripert, he's actually a very good cook and top level restaurateur. I've eaten at several of his restaurants in New Orleans, and the service was great and the food was above average to great compared to peers. If Emeril was brought in at Per Se I have no doubt that service would turn around immediately and the food would be daring and luxurious to match its reputation.
posted by me3dia at 1:01 PM on January 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
While Emeril's Food TV persona seems more like Guy Fieri than Eric Ripert, he's actually a very good cook and top level restaurateur. I've eaten at several of his restaurants in New Orleans, and the service was great and the food was above average to great compared to peers. If Emeril was brought in at Per Se I have no doubt that service would turn around immediately and the food would be daring and luxurious to match its reputation.
posted by me3dia at 1:01 PM on January 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
Again, food is a hobby for some people. Don't be a dick.
I'm somewhat enjoying the hate. I've splurged on about four high-end meals ($200-$400 / head), and been a guest at two others. Two were excellent experiences, two were perfectly fine and enjoyable, and two were less than mediocre.
For me special meals are rare Events, and it's hard not to be angry after the fact when a big splurge turns out to be a sub-par experience. Reading harsh reviews and comments feels like justified pay back, in a general way.
posted by kanewai at 1:05 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm somewhat enjoying the hate. I've splurged on about four high-end meals ($200-$400 / head), and been a guest at two others. Two were excellent experiences, two were perfectly fine and enjoyable, and two were less than mediocre.
For me special meals are rare Events, and it's hard not to be angry after the fact when a big splurge turns out to be a sub-par experience. Reading harsh reviews and comments feels like justified pay back, in a general way.
posted by kanewai at 1:05 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
4) There's plenty of great cheap food and great experiences to go along with it. There's something to be said for eating with your toes in the sand and there's also something to be said for having your wine glass filled without you even noticing.
100% agreed! I was in Singapore this past summer and my first bite of murtabak on a flimsy paper plate while I was sweating profusely sitting at a nondescript plastic table at a non-air-conditioned hawker centre in insanely humid weather was absolutely glorious. (I'd been traveling in Thailand for a while before that and while I love me some Thai food, I hadn't realized up to that moment how much I missed bread.)
But at the same time I also loved the small plates at my farewell-to-Boston dinner in Alden & Harlow in Harvard Square, during which I easily spent 10x the amount that I spent on that (very filling) murtabak in Singapore. (And Alden & Harlow is in a very decidedly lower price tier than Per Se or Le Bernadin or the very high-end fine dining we're talking about here). It's all about the context and the desired experience.
posted by andrewesque at 1:06 PM on January 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
100% agreed! I was in Singapore this past summer and my first bite of murtabak on a flimsy paper plate while I was sweating profusely sitting at a nondescript plastic table at a non-air-conditioned hawker centre in insanely humid weather was absolutely glorious. (I'd been traveling in Thailand for a while before that and while I love me some Thai food, I hadn't realized up to that moment how much I missed bread.)
But at the same time I also loved the small plates at my farewell-to-Boston dinner in Alden & Harlow in Harvard Square, during which I easily spent 10x the amount that I spent on that (very filling) murtabak in Singapore. (And Alden & Harlow is in a very decidedly lower price tier than Per Se or Le Bernadin or the very high-end fine dining we're talking about here). It's all about the context and the desired experience.
posted by andrewesque at 1:06 PM on January 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
For me special meals are rare Events, and it's hard not to be angry after the fact when a big splurge turns out to be a sub-par experience. Reading harsh reviews and comments feels like justified pay back, in a general way.
Oh, I certainly think it's OK to criticize places like Per Se when at ~$700 a head they don't live up to (justifiably) extremely high standards. What I (and I would guess others) in this thread are objecting to is the attitude encapsulated in the "Your favorite snooty expensive restaurant sucks" comment -- the attitude that those of us who enjoy/aspire to fine dining are just misguided food snobs throwing our money away.
posted by andrewesque at 1:09 PM on January 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
Oh, I certainly think it's OK to criticize places like Per Se when at ~$700 a head they don't live up to (justifiably) extremely high standards. What I (and I would guess others) in this thread are objecting to is the attitude encapsulated in the "Your favorite snooty expensive restaurant sucks" comment -- the attitude that those of us who enjoy/aspire to fine dining are just misguided food snobs throwing our money away.
posted by andrewesque at 1:09 PM on January 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
your very best Lynne Rossetto Kasper voice.
One of the best things about radio is that in your head people's names can be spelled in whatever way you want. To me, that person will always be "Lynn Roset O'Casper."
For those who predictably show up to these threads to sneer, take a moment to think about the massively dedicated and extraordinarily skilled people who work in those kitchens.
I love good food. I've had lots and lots of ~$200 dinners and a few in the $400 range, and some of those were blow-your-mind-good. I've never been to a place like Per Se, and probably never will, partly because of cost and partly because that style of fussy service, for all that it is a tradition and an art, really puts me off. I know it is what a lot of people enjoy and I am not at all denigrating the highly skilled front of house people who work very hard to make it happen -- it is just not my personal thing. My actual favorite are nice places that also have bar seating, where you can order the same food in a more informal setting; I've also eaten at some stupendously good tiny places where the kitchen staff also handles service, and there is a lot that is gained by giving the people making the food such total control.
I read a lot of the disappointment in this review as coming from the reviewer having such high expectations of the kitchen and then being served food that was apparently not up to those expectations; the snarkier comments here are a bit more mixed on that front.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:16 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
One of the best things about radio is that in your head people's names can be spelled in whatever way you want. To me, that person will always be "Lynn Roset O'Casper."
For those who predictably show up to these threads to sneer, take a moment to think about the massively dedicated and extraordinarily skilled people who work in those kitchens.
I love good food. I've had lots and lots of ~$200 dinners and a few in the $400 range, and some of those were blow-your-mind-good. I've never been to a place like Per Se, and probably never will, partly because of cost and partly because that style of fussy service, for all that it is a tradition and an art, really puts me off. I know it is what a lot of people enjoy and I am not at all denigrating the highly skilled front of house people who work very hard to make it happen -- it is just not my personal thing. My actual favorite are nice places that also have bar seating, where you can order the same food in a more informal setting; I've also eaten at some stupendously good tiny places where the kitchen staff also handles service, and there is a lot that is gained by giving the people making the food such total control.
I read a lot of the disappointment in this review as coming from the reviewer having such high expectations of the kitchen and then being served food that was apparently not up to those expectations; the snarkier comments here are a bit more mixed on that front.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:16 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
When you have a reputation like Per Se (until recently I guess?), just think about how much money you can make by skimping on quality.
posted by grobstein at 1:16 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by grobstein at 1:16 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
For me special meals are rare Events, and it's hard not to be angry after the fact when a big splurge turns out to be a sub-par experience. Reading harsh reviews and comments feels like justified pay back, in a general way.
Oh, I certainly think it's OK to criticize places like Per Se when at ~$700 a head they don't live up to (justifiably) extremely high standards....
Agreed. Bad food is bad food. Good food is rarely overpriced. So much time and effort goes into the ingredients, preparation and the overall experience that you can see where you're money is spent. El Bulli was very expensive and still run at a loss. For Per Se to be taking what are undoubtedly great ingredients and waste them on mediocre food and server is kind of a travesty tbh. I've had bad expensive meals and I was irked, not so much at what I spent on it, but on the waste of what should have been a good experience if the restaurant had its shit together. I get just as angry at mid-tier restaurants that don't have their shit together since why even be in business if you clearly don't care?
posted by mikesch at 1:17 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh, I certainly think it's OK to criticize places like Per Se when at ~$700 a head they don't live up to (justifiably) extremely high standards....
Agreed. Bad food is bad food. Good food is rarely overpriced. So much time and effort goes into the ingredients, preparation and the overall experience that you can see where you're money is spent. El Bulli was very expensive and still run at a loss. For Per Se to be taking what are undoubtedly great ingredients and waste them on mediocre food and server is kind of a travesty tbh. I've had bad expensive meals and I was irked, not so much at what I spent on it, but on the waste of what should have been a good experience if the restaurant had its shit together. I get just as angry at mid-tier restaurants that don't have their shit together since why even be in business if you clearly don't care?
posted by mikesch at 1:17 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Hey, just in case my comment was poorly written: when I described my best meal I wasn't trying to sneer at Per Se or any other fine dining. The opposite, in fact. It's just that the food itself is only a small part of what makes a meal like this special, and so the talk of service etc is right on point.
posted by OmieWise at 1:17 PM on January 12, 2016
posted by OmieWise at 1:17 PM on January 12, 2016
After $200 per person you are not dropping money on the food itself, you're paying for the entire experience,
That’s true everywhere, at every price. And not just restaurants. People seem to forget that.
posted by bongo_x at 1:20 PM on January 12, 2016
That’s true everywhere, at every price. And not just restaurants. People seem to forget that.
posted by bongo_x at 1:20 PM on January 12, 2016
And not just restaurants.
OK, but say you drop $500 a ticket to see Hamilton on Broadway, right? You are largely paying for the show. If the jerkoff next to you is texting, you can probably get an usher, or you can say something mean to them, but the experience other than the performance is largely out of the hands of the production.
That's not true with a restaurant.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:22 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
OK, but say you drop $500 a ticket to see Hamilton on Broadway, right? You are largely paying for the show. If the jerkoff next to you is texting, you can probably get an usher, or you can say something mean to them, but the experience other than the performance is largely out of the hands of the production.
That's not true with a restaurant.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:22 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Certified contempt of server, handed down from generation to generation, served with a generous sneer at customer expectations . . . priceless."
I have to say that much perceived contempt from waitstaff in nice places is a reflection far more of one's own insecurity than actual displayed contempt. I'm speaking as someone from a family which saw McDonald's as a special treat growing up (and who has social anxiety) and has felt that insecurity myself often enough going into expensive restaurants, stores, etc. But I've been fortunate, much later on in life, to have eaten from time to time at some high-end restaurants, and I can't say I have ever been treated with disdain at any of them. (Nor would I have stood for it, at those prices!) In fact, much of what you are paying for at such places is a luxurious atmosphere, which includes accommodating service. I still remember with a smile my one lunch at Le Bernardin, when a server discreetly brought over a little stool for my bag, so it wouldn't have to rest on the floor. Now, that gesture could have been executed in an obnoxious manner (conveying the thought, "what kind of BARBARIAN leaves their BAG -- even a cheap Coach bag like THAT -- on the FLOOR?"), or I could have been embarrassed by not knowing that the restaurant had little bag stools and gotten defensive about it, but fortunately, neither of those things happened.
When I was younger, I couldn't fathom why anyone would pay anyone to be particularly pleasant to them. It wasn't real! Now, while I still don't have any appreciation for unctuousness or servility, I understand how soothing it can be not to have to fight and hustle to get what you want from a service person of any kind, to have your needs anticipated and your wishes graciously accommodated. It's a pity if Per Se's standards have declined, with respect to either food or service.
posted by praemunire at 1:24 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
I have to say that much perceived contempt from waitstaff in nice places is a reflection far more of one's own insecurity than actual displayed contempt. I'm speaking as someone from a family which saw McDonald's as a special treat growing up (and who has social anxiety) and has felt that insecurity myself often enough going into expensive restaurants, stores, etc. But I've been fortunate, much later on in life, to have eaten from time to time at some high-end restaurants, and I can't say I have ever been treated with disdain at any of them. (Nor would I have stood for it, at those prices!) In fact, much of what you are paying for at such places is a luxurious atmosphere, which includes accommodating service. I still remember with a smile my one lunch at Le Bernardin, when a server discreetly brought over a little stool for my bag, so it wouldn't have to rest on the floor. Now, that gesture could have been executed in an obnoxious manner (conveying the thought, "what kind of BARBARIAN leaves their BAG -- even a cheap Coach bag like THAT -- on the FLOOR?"), or I could have been embarrassed by not knowing that the restaurant had little bag stools and gotten defensive about it, but fortunately, neither of those things happened.
When I was younger, I couldn't fathom why anyone would pay anyone to be particularly pleasant to them. It wasn't real! Now, while I still don't have any appreciation for unctuousness or servility, I understand how soothing it can be not to have to fight and hustle to get what you want from a service person of any kind, to have your needs anticipated and your wishes graciously accommodated. It's a pity if Per Se's standards have declined, with respect to either food or service.
posted by praemunire at 1:24 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Firstly, I am team "haricots verts" has a specific meaning. It is a specific kind of bean, and not at all an affectation if it means "using this term means getting this product".
Secondly, One of my favorite incidents of food television was one of those "bad cooks try to cook" shows, and a contestant cooked some haricots verts, but cut off all the ends "to make them neater", and the chef mentor who saw this happen almost had a meltdown while watching this happen and it was amazing.
No one blamed the cook, because how could she know? But the chef watching the more expensive product have its special features trimmed off and thrown away was like watching a gastronome internally screaming KHANNNNNN!!!!! in a moment of helpless horror.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 1:28 PM on January 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
Secondly, One of my favorite incidents of food television was one of those "bad cooks try to cook" shows, and a contestant cooked some haricots verts, but cut off all the ends "to make them neater", and the chef mentor who saw this happen almost had a meltdown while watching this happen and it was amazing.
No one blamed the cook, because how could she know? But the chef watching the more expensive product have its special features trimmed off and thrown away was like watching a gastronome internally screaming KHANNNNNN!!!!! in a moment of helpless horror.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 1:28 PM on January 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
I love good food. I've had lots and lots of ~$200 dinners and a few in the $400 range, and some of those were blow-your-mind-good. I've never been to a place like Per Se, and probably never will...
You can totally eat at a three-star Michelin restaurant for $400, especially if you're being economical with wine. There are some places where you can probably get away with lunch for around $150. That's one thing that makes the prices at Per Se so indefensible.
posted by mr_roboto at 1:29 PM on January 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
You can totally eat at a three-star Michelin restaurant for $400, especially if you're being economical with wine. There are some places where you can probably get away with lunch for around $150. That's one thing that makes the prices at Per Se so indefensible.
posted by mr_roboto at 1:29 PM on January 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
Yes, this is modeled after Michelin. In France, getting even one star is regarded as an accomplishment.
Yeah, with the French Michelin guide, being listed at all means your place is good. Then you get the number of "knife and fork" symbols you rate which are like junior stars, and above that you move into getting one star or possibly more, but getting any stars at all is rare.
posted by w0mbat at 1:31 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, with the French Michelin guide, being listed at all means your place is good. Then you get the number of "knife and fork" symbols you rate which are like junior stars, and above that you move into getting one star or possibly more, but getting any stars at all is rare.
posted by w0mbat at 1:31 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
nothing is being served in that dining room unless it's been made, tasted, refined, remade, and retasted
More than one reviewer has remarked on how they're mistreating their cheeses. All they have to do is take it out of the fridge a little while before service, so that it can warm up. They're not doing that. It's about as easy as falling off a log, and they can't be bothered.
They're not really trying any longer. They don't care.
Which isn't the end of the world, but it's sure ain't the sort of attention to detail people are paying for.
posted by aramaic at 1:34 PM on January 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
More than one reviewer has remarked on how they're mistreating their cheeses. All they have to do is take it out of the fridge a little while before service, so that it can warm up. They're not doing that. It's about as easy as falling off a log, and they can't be bothered.
They're not really trying any longer. They don't care.
Which isn't the end of the world, but it's sure ain't the sort of attention to detail people are paying for.
posted by aramaic at 1:34 PM on January 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
I've always figured I'd be able to get away with cheaper dining at a fancy place because I don't like wine, but then I worry that that means I don't even have the palate to truly enjoy the food.
posted by kmz at 1:37 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by kmz at 1:37 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
could also be a health department thing. Can't store the cheese at room temp, or even really allow it warm to room temp before service.
posted by JPD at 1:37 PM on January 12, 2016
posted by JPD at 1:37 PM on January 12, 2016
Cheeses don't get made the way dishes do. What I said had nothing to do with proper serving of cheese.
And, yes, it's a health department thing. We're terrified of cheese in North America, and insist on serving it at temperatures that dull the flavour. With such a low rating for their cleanliness, they're probably a bit on edge about any tiny infraction in case the inspector shows up and shuts them down. In most jurisdictions, a health inspector can shutter a restaurant on the spot.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:41 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
And, yes, it's a health department thing. We're terrified of cheese in North America, and insist on serving it at temperatures that dull the flavour. With such a low rating for their cleanliness, they're probably a bit on edge about any tiny infraction in case the inspector shows up and shuts them down. In most jurisdictions, a health inspector can shutter a restaurant on the spot.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:41 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Still might try for Alinea one of these days. I guess I'm still a bit of a Chicago homer, even though I only lived there for 3 years.
kmz, I was granted a chance to eat at Next last September as part of a dual birthday celebration. It happened to coincide with their Terroir menu, which meant I was drinking a significant amount of wine in proportion to the food. To be totally blunt, I loved the scenery, the wines (so many great ABC whites), and the overall presentation...but the food itself got a bit lost underneath all of the beverage. It was a bit too unbalanced for me--the fact that I have to look at the menu to recall what I ate says volumes, as it was way too easy to get sloshed from the wine. Given that the tickets were in the $300 range, its an imbalance that in my opinion does them a disfavor (and since it was a partial gift to me, I am somewhat glad that it wasn't fully out of my pocket).
At least I got to see my first McLaren that day (an orange 650S). I remember that car more than the menu.
posted by stannate at 1:46 PM on January 12, 2016
kmz, I was granted a chance to eat at Next last September as part of a dual birthday celebration. It happened to coincide with their Terroir menu, which meant I was drinking a significant amount of wine in proportion to the food. To be totally blunt, I loved the scenery, the wines (so many great ABC whites), and the overall presentation...but the food itself got a bit lost underneath all of the beverage. It was a bit too unbalanced for me--the fact that I have to look at the menu to recall what I ate says volumes, as it was way too easy to get sloshed from the wine. Given that the tickets were in the $300 range, its an imbalance that in my opinion does them a disfavor (and since it was a partial gift to me, I am somewhat glad that it wasn't fully out of my pocket).
At least I got to see my first McLaren that day (an orange 650S). I remember that car more than the menu.
posted by stannate at 1:46 PM on January 12, 2016
maybe the server could hold the cheese in their bare hands and breathe on it to warm it up before serving
posted by poffin boffin at 1:49 PM on January 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 1:49 PM on January 12, 2016 [8 favorites]
I don't have a problem with food snobs, but I do kind of have a problem with I-want-the-server-to-pick-up-my-dropped-napkin-for-me-with-balletic-grace snobs
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:49 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:49 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yes, I opted to forego the wine at Noma because I was concerned it would be too much for me. In Denmark a lot of the high-end restaurants do juice pairings, which I think is a really great idea, especially because my husband does not drink at all. It's nice to still get a thoughtful beverage pairing even if you don't drink.
posted by something something at 1:49 PM on January 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by something something at 1:49 PM on January 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
While Emeril's Food TV persona seems more like Guy Fieri than Eric Ripert, he's actually a very good cook and top level restaurateur.
I have to begrudgingly agree. I dislike Emeril's persona almost as much as I dislike Fieri's. When we were given a gift certificate to an Emeril steakhouse in a casino near us, I have to say -- I rolled my eyes, and we went on a Tuesday not expecting much. I've eaten some really fine and memorable meals, and -- Emeril's was among them. I'm still surprised by how good it in fact was, and honestly, pretty impressed that the standards were that high attached to a suburban casino full of smoke.
posted by Dashy at 1:54 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
I have to begrudgingly agree. I dislike Emeril's persona almost as much as I dislike Fieri's. When we were given a gift certificate to an Emeril steakhouse in a casino near us, I have to say -- I rolled my eyes, and we went on a Tuesday not expecting much. I've eaten some really fine and memorable meals, and -- Emeril's was among them. I'm still surprised by how good it in fact was, and honestly, pretty impressed that the standards were that high attached to a suburban casino full of smoke.
posted by Dashy at 1:54 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Man, the cheese thing bothers me so much. I will will eat my hat (unfortunately, not made of cheese) if that's actually backed up by any evidence.
posted by quaking fajita at 1:55 PM on January 12, 2016
posted by quaking fajita at 1:55 PM on January 12, 2016
It's very common to pay a supplement for a truffle course, because truffles are expensive. I don't really see a problem with that.
My partner and I ate at Per Se a few months ago. We're not rich, certainly not "stupidly rich", but we're not poor either, and we go out to similar restaurants maybe four times or so a year. (It's much cheaper than, say, having a kid.) We're vegetarian, and the Eater review dissing their vegetable dishes didn't reflect our experience. We were both satisfied with the experience, and I'm glad we went.
I've never had an unpleasant experience with the waitstaff at any expensive restaurant. They've always went out of their way to be friendly and helpful. So I'm not sure what's going on with that part of these reviews.
The "loot bag" thing is pretty common nowadays. A lot of expensive restaurants serve a dessert course, then a post-dessert candy tray or something, then give you some sweet breads and candies to take home. It's a nice touch, not a big deal either way.
The cheese thing is pretty interesting. Apparently, restaurants take a beating over cheese no matter what they do. One time, I talked to a headwaiter at a top-rated DC restaurant about this after they'd discontinued using a big cheese tray for cheese service in favor of serving a specific selection of cheeses. He said the wastage was just too much for them to pay for, they just couldn't afford to keep doing it.
But I do think there are some problems that commonly affect high-end restaurants. The longer they stick around, the more problems they have, until they turn into a parody of themselves. I'm sure there are some exceptions, but it's a lot harder to surprise people in your tenth season than your first, even if the overall quality remains high. It's harder to balance the dishes that made you famous against the new ones you want to try. And even the most expensive restaurants are very fragile businesses, based on what I've seen.
posted by me & my monkey at 1:59 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
My partner and I ate at Per Se a few months ago. We're not rich, certainly not "stupidly rich", but we're not poor either, and we go out to similar restaurants maybe four times or so a year. (It's much cheaper than, say, having a kid.) We're vegetarian, and the Eater review dissing their vegetable dishes didn't reflect our experience. We were both satisfied with the experience, and I'm glad we went.
I've never had an unpleasant experience with the waitstaff at any expensive restaurant. They've always went out of their way to be friendly and helpful. So I'm not sure what's going on with that part of these reviews.
The "loot bag" thing is pretty common nowadays. A lot of expensive restaurants serve a dessert course, then a post-dessert candy tray or something, then give you some sweet breads and candies to take home. It's a nice touch, not a big deal either way.
The cheese thing is pretty interesting. Apparently, restaurants take a beating over cheese no matter what they do. One time, I talked to a headwaiter at a top-rated DC restaurant about this after they'd discontinued using a big cheese tray for cheese service in favor of serving a specific selection of cheeses. He said the wastage was just too much for them to pay for, they just couldn't afford to keep doing it.
But I do think there are some problems that commonly affect high-end restaurants. The longer they stick around, the more problems they have, until they turn into a parody of themselves. I'm sure there are some exceptions, but it's a lot harder to surprise people in your tenth season than your first, even if the overall quality remains high. It's harder to balance the dishes that made you famous against the new ones you want to try. And even the most expensive restaurants are very fragile businesses, based on what I've seen.
posted by me & my monkey at 1:59 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yes, I opted to forego the wine at Noma because I was concerned it would be too much for me. In Denmark a lot of the high-end restaurants do juice pairings, which I think is a really great idea, especially because my husband does not drink at all. It's nice to still get a thoughtful beverage pairing even if you don't drink.
Yes! We did this at Noma too. Loved the Apple & Pinetree juice and the Seabuckthorn juice.
Not just Denmark since we also did this at Frantzén in Stockholm.
posted by vacapinta at 2:04 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yes! We did this at Noma too. Loved the Apple & Pinetree juice and the Seabuckthorn juice.
Not just Denmark since we also did this at Frantzén in Stockholm.
posted by vacapinta at 2:04 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I wonder if what it takes to really keep up a place like that is just too rare.
Like, take athletes. To be a professional athlete at all, to get there, takes an insane amount of competitiveness. And 95 percent of the people who have the talent to be pros never become champions, and if you’ve never won the big one then I think that spur could keep you running an awful long time.
But there’s this even more rarefied level, the level you get to when you have won it. And you could win it again, you know you have the talent, you know on your best day --- hell, even on just one of your good days --- you can beat anybody in the game. And you also know, know in your bones and your feet and your back, exactly how much work it’s going to take to make sure you have good days. There is a point where maintaining excellence becomes a choice, a weary choice.
I feel like that happened with the Williams sisters a bit, in tennis. Obviously Serena is currently on a mission to seal GOAT, but there was a time in the early 2000s when they were both in their primes and it seemed like they dropped off the map a little. A title is sweet but can your seventh be as sweet as your first, for any human being?
But then you have the ones like Navratilova. The fiends. The ones who would keep going back for it, keep pushing as hard as they could, until their limbs fell off or you dragged them off the court, basically. That’s how you win 20 titles. Being a border collie in human form.
I feel like this kind of dining must be the same thing. That you have to go full border collie to get to the point where, 10 years in, you’re still on red alert for a dropped napkin. Still sweating every menu change. Obviously restaurant running is a team sport, in this analogy. I’m sure Keller still loves food, still loves creating new dishes, new menus. But the border collie intensity, the fiend in him, maybe he doesn’t have that. And I think in a thing like this if the leader doesn't have it the staff won't, either. Few people every get to find out if they do --- got to win it to get there, and practically nobody wins. You have climbed the mountain. Do you wish to climb it again? Yes/no. Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow….
posted by Diablevert at 2:05 PM on January 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
Like, take athletes. To be a professional athlete at all, to get there, takes an insane amount of competitiveness. And 95 percent of the people who have the talent to be pros never become champions, and if you’ve never won the big one then I think that spur could keep you running an awful long time.
But there’s this even more rarefied level, the level you get to when you have won it. And you could win it again, you know you have the talent, you know on your best day --- hell, even on just one of your good days --- you can beat anybody in the game. And you also know, know in your bones and your feet and your back, exactly how much work it’s going to take to make sure you have good days. There is a point where maintaining excellence becomes a choice, a weary choice.
I feel like that happened with the Williams sisters a bit, in tennis. Obviously Serena is currently on a mission to seal GOAT, but there was a time in the early 2000s when they were both in their primes and it seemed like they dropped off the map a little. A title is sweet but can your seventh be as sweet as your first, for any human being?
But then you have the ones like Navratilova. The fiends. The ones who would keep going back for it, keep pushing as hard as they could, until their limbs fell off or you dragged them off the court, basically. That’s how you win 20 titles. Being a border collie in human form.
I feel like this kind of dining must be the same thing. That you have to go full border collie to get to the point where, 10 years in, you’re still on red alert for a dropped napkin. Still sweating every menu change. Obviously restaurant running is a team sport, in this analogy. I’m sure Keller still loves food, still loves creating new dishes, new menus. But the border collie intensity, the fiend in him, maybe he doesn’t have that. And I think in a thing like this if the leader doesn't have it the staff won't, either. Few people every get to find out if they do --- got to win it to get there, and practically nobody wins. You have climbed the mountain. Do you wish to climb it again? Yes/no. Tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow….
posted by Diablevert at 2:05 PM on January 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
When I talk about the difference in service expectations between myself and the review it's not meant to be a judgement of the latter. I was sincerely surprised about the gap. My family was reasonably well-off but we never went to fancy dining places and I learned about the uses of different silverware when I looked it up on the Internet in my 20s. Until this review, I thought really impressive service was exemplified by the restaurant I went to where the waiter brushed the crumbs off the table before dessert and was on point about refilling my water glass.
posted by Anonymous at 2:10 PM on January 12, 2016
posted by Anonymous at 2:10 PM on January 12, 2016
Oh man, juice pairings sounds amazing.
posted by kmz at 2:15 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by kmz at 2:15 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I can't imagine how any meal no matter what could be worth $400. and up. Yes, you can all get off my lawn and take your overpriced food with you.
Seriously, is there nothing in your life that you'd pay a 100-150% premium to enjoy a straight-up extraordinary version of it?
Because that's what dining at a place like Per Se is supposed to be for people who like fancy food and service.
I learned about the uses of different silverware when I looked it up on the Internet in my 20
One of the nice things about places as fancy and well-trained as Per Se is supposed to be is, that, like when I straight-up ask what a certain piece of silverware on my plate was for, they tell me and don't make me feel me feel weird or rotten or stupid the way that I've been made to feel at less fancy restaurants when I've asked questions. Which is how I now know that SPECIALIZED SILVERWARE IS HOW FANCY PEOPLE GET DELICIOUS SAUCE FROM THE BOTTOM OF THEIR PLATES WITHOUT HAVING TO LICK SOMETHING IN PUBLIC.
posted by joyceanmachine at 2:16 PM on January 12, 2016 [28 favorites]
Seriously, is there nothing in your life that you'd pay a 100-150% premium to enjoy a straight-up extraordinary version of it?
Because that's what dining at a place like Per Se is supposed to be for people who like fancy food and service.
I learned about the uses of different silverware when I looked it up on the Internet in my 20
One of the nice things about places as fancy and well-trained as Per Se is supposed to be is, that, like when I straight-up ask what a certain piece of silverware on my plate was for, they tell me and don't make me feel me feel weird or rotten or stupid the way that I've been made to feel at less fancy restaurants when I've asked questions. Which is how I now know that SPECIALIZED SILVERWARE IS HOW FANCY PEOPLE GET DELICIOUS SAUCE FROM THE BOTTOM OF THEIR PLATES WITHOUT HAVING TO LICK SOMETHING IN PUBLIC.
posted by joyceanmachine at 2:16 PM on January 12, 2016 [28 favorites]
The food was really interesting and beautifully served and the service was friendly, impeccable, and unpretentious, but most importantly it was fun.
Some people in these threads seem to think high-end dining is a sullen experience of greyfaced nouveau riche types sitting around silently (or perhaps mocking their social inferiors) while thoughtlessly shoveling barely-tasted food into their gaping maws.
It's actually one of the most joyful experiences you can have. I'd much rather plunk down the money for an exceptional meal at a great restaurant than, say, Hamilton tickets (to pick an example from this thread.)
posted by Justinian at 2:17 PM on January 12, 2016 [14 favorites]
Some people in these threads seem to think high-end dining is a sullen experience of greyfaced nouveau riche types sitting around silently (or perhaps mocking their social inferiors) while thoughtlessly shoveling barely-tasted food into their gaping maws.
It's actually one of the most joyful experiences you can have. I'd much rather plunk down the money for an exceptional meal at a great restaurant than, say, Hamilton tickets (to pick an example from this thread.)
posted by Justinian at 2:17 PM on January 12, 2016 [14 favorites]
Hey, now, you can go to Le Bernadin and Hamilton.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:18 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:18 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
100% agreed! I was in Singapore this past summer and my first bite of murtabak on a flimsy paper plate while I was sweating profusely sitting at a nondescript plastic table at a non-air-conditioned hawker centre in insanely humid weather was absolutely glorious. (I'd been traveling in Thailand for a while before that and while I love me some Thai food, I hadn't realized up to that moment how much I missed bread.)
andrewesque!! Murtabak!!! I miss it so much! The poutine of Singapour! Gotta learn how to make a proper roti (their technique to stretch it is impressive) and make some!
posted by coust at 2:33 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
andrewesque!! Murtabak!!! I miss it so much! The poutine of Singapour! Gotta learn how to make a proper roti (their technique to stretch it is impressive) and make some!
posted by coust at 2:33 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
I want to get delicious sauce from the bottom of my plate, joyceanmachine. Which utensil, pray tell, makes that possible?
posted by Bella Donna at 2:37 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 2:37 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
And not just restaurants.
OK, but say you drop $500 a ticket to see Hamilton on Broadway, right? You are largely paying for the show. If the jerkoff next to you is texting, you can probably get an usher, or you can say something mean to them, but the experience other than the performance is largely out of the hands of the production.
That's not true with a restaurant.
I’m not sure if you’re misunderstanding me, because I’m not sure what you’re saying.
I'm defending the fact that a big part of the price of a really expensive meal is the level of service and atmosphere you’re supposed to be getting. You get the level of service and atmosphere at Taco Bell that you pay for. The threshold where your right to complain kicks in is pretty high there, in my opinion. Stay at the Four Seasons and it’s pretty much a hotel room (the ones I’ve stayed at). But shit is taken care of and those people are really helpful (unfortunately I never really need anything, I’ve tried to think of things).
It’s never just the food, or whatever the item is, I don’t at all see how restaurants are unique in that respect. It’s the location, the service, etc. Even the play. You could watch it on video (if it was available) if you just want to see the play. That’s not what you want. You want to see it in a place made for the experience, live every time, with an audience and professional actors and you didn’t come there to see them half ass it because they’ve done it so many times before. That shit all costs money. Otherwise I could have the neighborhood kids learn all the parts and act it out in the front yard for way cheaper.
Sorry, this isn’t aimed at you at all, just a rant about a thing that irritates me. There are lots of things I don’t think are worth the money, but it’s annoying when someone says "why should X cost so much" and they don’t take into account all the things that go into it. Yes, Amazon is cheaper. There’s a reason (they want your soul).
posted by bongo_x at 2:44 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
OK, but say you drop $500 a ticket to see Hamilton on Broadway, right? You are largely paying for the show. If the jerkoff next to you is texting, you can probably get an usher, or you can say something mean to them, but the experience other than the performance is largely out of the hands of the production.
That's not true with a restaurant.
I’m not sure if you’re misunderstanding me, because I’m not sure what you’re saying.
I'm defending the fact that a big part of the price of a really expensive meal is the level of service and atmosphere you’re supposed to be getting. You get the level of service and atmosphere at Taco Bell that you pay for. The threshold where your right to complain kicks in is pretty high there, in my opinion. Stay at the Four Seasons and it’s pretty much a hotel room (the ones I’ve stayed at). But shit is taken care of and those people are really helpful (unfortunately I never really need anything, I’ve tried to think of things).
It’s never just the food, or whatever the item is, I don’t at all see how restaurants are unique in that respect. It’s the location, the service, etc. Even the play. You could watch it on video (if it was available) if you just want to see the play. That’s not what you want. You want to see it in a place made for the experience, live every time, with an audience and professional actors and you didn’t come there to see them half ass it because they’ve done it so many times before. That shit all costs money. Otherwise I could have the neighborhood kids learn all the parts and act it out in the front yard for way cheaper.
Sorry, this isn’t aimed at you at all, just a rant about a thing that irritates me. There are lots of things I don’t think are worth the money, but it’s annoying when someone says "why should X cost so much" and they don’t take into account all the things that go into it. Yes, Amazon is cheaper. There’s a reason (they want your soul).
posted by bongo_x at 2:44 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I often wish there was like a Sportsfilter for food. A place where people who care about food can go and talk about it, away from all the people who think it's totally dumb and wander into every thread about gastronomy and shit up the comments.
Like people who can't understand that the service at a fine restaurant is almost as important as the food, and worthy of review.
The first time I went to Le Bernardin, one of the staff noticed that my companion was cold (it was summertime and their AC was, in Manhattan tradition, set to: arctic blast) and brought her a cashmere shawl. Because it's hard to enjoy really great food if you're cold through your entire meal. My most recent visit was... a disappointment, and had not a lot to do with the food.
Someone upthread asked if the French Laundry is still worth going to. The first time I went to the French Laundry is one of ~three food experiences that genuinely changed my life. But I would say... no. Or rather, that today there are other places I'd suggest you visit first.
posted by danny the boy at 2:48 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Like people who can't understand that the service at a fine restaurant is almost as important as the food, and worthy of review.
The first time I went to Le Bernardin, one of the staff noticed that my companion was cold (it was summertime and their AC was, in Manhattan tradition, set to: arctic blast) and brought her a cashmere shawl. Because it's hard to enjoy really great food if you're cold through your entire meal. My most recent visit was... a disappointment, and had not a lot to do with the food.
Someone upthread asked if the French Laundry is still worth going to. The first time I went to the French Laundry is one of ~three food experiences that genuinely changed my life. But I would say... no. Or rather, that today there are other places I'd suggest you visit first.
posted by danny the boy at 2:48 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Lubina, the European sea bass
Per Se, When the Walls Fell
posted by ilana at 2:49 PM on January 12, 2016 [20 favorites]
Per Se, When the Walls Fell
posted by ilana at 2:49 PM on January 12, 2016 [20 favorites]
It's actually one of the most joyful experiences you can have
I know there are people out there who don't like food, but if you do, absolutely, deliciously yes. My first "high-dining" experience was part of the interview/recruitment process when I was a poor as fuck student, and the experience was very much part of the interview - plunking down a poor student into an entirely alien social experience that involves money is, IMHO, an interesting way of gauging how they handle themselves in stressful situations - and even with the interview undercurrent it was an amazing experience. Before that moment my idea of dining out was Olive Garden or Red Lobster (a place not known for its seafood but its cheese biscuits). Ohhhh - The atmosphere! The service! The tableware! The FOOD. Ohmygod the food - to this day I remember every course. I had so much fun, and vowed right then that it would be worth it to save money all year long just to experience something like that again.
But it was also, as FFFM says, an eye opening look into how much work and knowledge is out there in providing something like that, and as someone who loves and appreciates professionalism and knowledge in all forms that was also a very enjoyable part of the experience. But it was such a good experience I didn't realize it until later because it seemed so effortless at the time - which just upped the wow factor.
Oh yes, so joyful.
posted by barchan at 2:49 PM on January 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
I know there are people out there who don't like food, but if you do, absolutely, deliciously yes. My first "high-dining" experience was part of the interview/recruitment process when I was a poor as fuck student, and the experience was very much part of the interview - plunking down a poor student into an entirely alien social experience that involves money is, IMHO, an interesting way of gauging how they handle themselves in stressful situations - and even with the interview undercurrent it was an amazing experience. Before that moment my idea of dining out was Olive Garden or Red Lobster (a place not known for its seafood but its cheese biscuits). Ohhhh - The atmosphere! The service! The tableware! The FOOD. Ohmygod the food - to this day I remember every course. I had so much fun, and vowed right then that it would be worth it to save money all year long just to experience something like that again.
But it was also, as FFFM says, an eye opening look into how much work and knowledge is out there in providing something like that, and as someone who loves and appreciates professionalism and knowledge in all forms that was also a very enjoyable part of the experience. But it was such a good experience I didn't realize it until later because it seemed so effortless at the time - which just upped the wow factor.
Oh yes, so joyful.
posted by barchan at 2:49 PM on January 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
I have gladly paid Per Se prices for meals, and the idea that a broken sauce would be served, or cheese brought to the table cold, or a napkin remained on the floor, makes it plain that they have no desire to be great. These are the kinds of mistakes that good mid-range restaurants don't make. The expeditor is supposed to look at each dish, and a broken sauce is a fault that is obvious to the eye. Ditto the napkin, it's obvious. The cheese is supposed to be taken care of. I'm sure there are people working very hard at Per Se, and obviously it sometimes reaches transcendence, but they'll be irrelevant in a hurry if it keeps going the way it's going. We can argue all we want about whether a chef is innovative, or whether a dish is delicious, but what's being related in these reviews is straight up error.
posted by wnissen at 3:01 PM on January 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by wnissen at 3:01 PM on January 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
I've only eaten at two places this expensive: Per Se and Ko.
At Ko the spartan decor, unpretentious, relaxed-seeming waitstaff (wearing flannel!), and simple explanations from the chefs (who also serve) lead me to consistently expect something tasty, if weird. And then each course would turn out to be amazing. Being happily surprised over and over is Fun.
At Per Se the fantastic views, up-tight staff, and menu descriptions all led me to expect something tasty, if fussy. Sometimes it was really great (the pearls). But some of the staff looked kind of miserable and I felt kind of awkward with them and it was often delicious, but it wasn't fun.
posted by ldthomps at 3:04 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
At Ko the spartan decor, unpretentious, relaxed-seeming waitstaff (wearing flannel!), and simple explanations from the chefs (who also serve) lead me to consistently expect something tasty, if weird. And then each course would turn out to be amazing. Being happily surprised over and over is Fun.
At Per Se the fantastic views, up-tight staff, and menu descriptions all led me to expect something tasty, if fussy. Sometimes it was really great (the pearls). But some of the staff looked kind of miserable and I felt kind of awkward with them and it was often delicious, but it wasn't fun.
posted by ldthomps at 3:04 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
My daughter and her best friend had a joint account for going to top-level restaurants while they where teens with McD-type jobs. Quality is about priority, not necessarily income. I will pay for fine dining, and have done so since I was 16. My first independant experience was having lunch at Le Train Bleu in Paris, on the way to vacation with my dad. I'd planned and saved up for it. Dad thought I was crazy.
But - it does seem Per Se has lost the respect for the diner, judging from these reviews. In a way, the teenage diner, as I was, and my daughter was, is a great test for the ambition of the restaurant.
Last time my sister was at NOMA, the diners at the next table were two aspiring cooks. And my sister was absolutely fascinated by how the staff engaged with these two very young guys, taking them every bit as seriously as her monied and much-tipping party. For her, this made it very clear how the restaurant made every single meal a special event for the diner.
In my view, if you have fixed menus, the luxury items have to be included. Because the whole fixed menu experience is about sharing the event. You go to the restaurant like you go to the theatre, and part of the experience is talking about the different courses. Maybe that is just me? Anyhow, paying 200 dollars for a menu, even though there are a lot of kitchen hours in there (and I respect that), foie gras or truffles should be included. You can get a serving of eggs and truffles or truffle risotto for much less at good restaurants across the globe.
posted by mumimor at 3:11 PM on January 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
But - it does seem Per Se has lost the respect for the diner, judging from these reviews. In a way, the teenage diner, as I was, and my daughter was, is a great test for the ambition of the restaurant.
Last time my sister was at NOMA, the diners at the next table were two aspiring cooks. And my sister was absolutely fascinated by how the staff engaged with these two very young guys, taking them every bit as seriously as her monied and much-tipping party. For her, this made it very clear how the restaurant made every single meal a special event for the diner.
In my view, if you have fixed menus, the luxury items have to be included. Because the whole fixed menu experience is about sharing the event. You go to the restaurant like you go to the theatre, and part of the experience is talking about the different courses. Maybe that is just me? Anyhow, paying 200 dollars for a menu, even though there are a lot of kitchen hours in there (and I respect that), foie gras or truffles should be included. You can get a serving of eggs and truffles or truffle risotto for much less at good restaurants across the globe.
posted by mumimor at 3:11 PM on January 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Either way, she's acting like a ridiculous Edwardian lady. I wouldn't do that at a damn Taco Bell.
Of course, a paper napkin doesn't give the same frisson de mépris as it floats to the linoleum.
posted by Celsius1414 at 3:17 PM on January 12, 2016 [17 favorites]
Of course, a paper napkin doesn't give the same frisson de mépris as it floats to the linoleum.
posted by Celsius1414 at 3:17 PM on January 12, 2016 [17 favorites]
I love food, and I appreciate fine dining as much as anyone, but $3000 for a table of four? Surely there's a point somewhere around $200 per person that one starts to experience diminishing returns.
Veblen Party, your table is ready, Veblen Party who are able to pay $3000 for a single meal, we can seat you now.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 3:22 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Veblen Party, your table is ready, Veblen Party who are able to pay $3000 for a single meal, we can seat you now.
posted by Horace Rumpole at 3:22 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Per Se, When the Walls Napkin Fell
posted by InfidelZombie at 3:22 PM on January 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by InfidelZombie at 3:22 PM on January 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
This review has already had a big impact in my industry. For those who don't follow this kind of thing, just pick your favorite American who is at the top of their form, with a very respected volume of past work in whatever medium.
Thomas Keller is that guy in cooking. He's the Cohen Brothers, Bob Dylan, Kobe, LeBron etc.. He almost single handedly put ultra-fine dining in America back on the international map. For one of his restaurants to slip this much is HUGE.
For those who don't quite understand why anyone would pay $375 for a meal . . . that's fine. It's not your thing, we get it. Seriously, no harm, no foul. My parents are both like that, despite the fact that I've cooked in restaurants very similar to Per Se (and for one of Chef Keller's former proteges). They are proud of me and my accomplishments, but when it comes to dining at the restaurants I work at, sometimes they don't get what all the fuss is about.
Please understand, however that someone who is charging upwards of $200, just for food and constructing a tasting menu is not serving the same thing as the guy down the street at $15 dollars a plate is. He's buying better product, treating it better, storing it better, preparing it better and in more creative ways. The guy at the other end of the block is still making delicious food, don't get me wrong. It's just that they're not even playing the same game.
One example:
At the restaurant I worked at, we bought beef from Four Story Hill Farms, which sells to Thomas Keller. I'm from the midwest, lived in Japan and France and have eaten my fare share of great beef. This was far and away the best I have EVER tasted. Their beef is so good, they choose who they sell to. Your average USDA "Prime" rib roast will run you about $150 wholesale. Theirs costs $1500. And it is worth every penny. No lie.
Take that raw material cost and add in the fact that about 5 guys who get paid pretty well stood around that plate with tweezers arranging it before it went out and the costs start stacking up.
posted by kaiseki at 3:34 PM on January 12, 2016 [26 favorites]
Thomas Keller is that guy in cooking. He's the Cohen Brothers, Bob Dylan, Kobe, LeBron etc.. He almost single handedly put ultra-fine dining in America back on the international map. For one of his restaurants to slip this much is HUGE.
For those who don't quite understand why anyone would pay $375 for a meal . . . that's fine. It's not your thing, we get it. Seriously, no harm, no foul. My parents are both like that, despite the fact that I've cooked in restaurants very similar to Per Se (and for one of Chef Keller's former proteges). They are proud of me and my accomplishments, but when it comes to dining at the restaurants I work at, sometimes they don't get what all the fuss is about.
Please understand, however that someone who is charging upwards of $200, just for food and constructing a tasting menu is not serving the same thing as the guy down the street at $15 dollars a plate is. He's buying better product, treating it better, storing it better, preparing it better and in more creative ways. The guy at the other end of the block is still making delicious food, don't get me wrong. It's just that they're not even playing the same game.
One example:
At the restaurant I worked at, we bought beef from Four Story Hill Farms, which sells to Thomas Keller. I'm from the midwest, lived in Japan and France and have eaten my fare share of great beef. This was far and away the best I have EVER tasted. Their beef is so good, they choose who they sell to. Your average USDA "Prime" rib roast will run you about $150 wholesale. Theirs costs $1500. And it is worth every penny. No lie.
Take that raw material cost and add in the fact that about 5 guys who get paid pretty well stood around that plate with tweezers arranging it before it went out and the costs start stacking up.
posted by kaiseki at 3:34 PM on January 12, 2016 [26 favorites]
You know what here's the other thing that annoys me about the "anyone who pays $X for a meal is a rich idiot" brigade. It doesn't even matter what $X is, they're basically saying fuck ethical producers, fuck caring about where your food came from, fuck the environment, fuck paying people a living wage, IN ADDITION TO: fuck the entire concept of being really good at something.
posted by danny the boy at 4:07 PM on January 12, 2016 [28 favorites]
posted by danny the boy at 4:07 PM on January 12, 2016 [28 favorites]
Anyone who pays $300 for a meal is an idiot!
--sent from my ipad
posted by Justinian at 4:10 PM on January 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
--sent from my ipad
posted by Justinian at 4:10 PM on January 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
You are exactly correct danny the boy. Cheap food is cheap because corners are getting cut somewhere. You decide if you're okay with that.
In regards to your last point, that's why people go to cook for these places. I can make and have made better money than I did cooking at the aforementioned restaurant. But I didn't take the job to get rich. I took it to learn and grow as a chef. It's what's required in my industry. The average salary of a manager at Chili's is almost twice what I made at my first sous-chef gig.
posted by kaiseki at 4:18 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
In regards to your last point, that's why people go to cook for these places. I can make and have made better money than I did cooking at the aforementioned restaurant. But I didn't take the job to get rich. I took it to learn and grow as a chef. It's what's required in my industry. The average salary of a manager at Chili's is almost twice what I made at my first sous-chef gig.
posted by kaiseki at 4:18 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
IN ADDITION TO: fuck the entire concept of being really good at something.
Forget the fact that merely spending money at such restaurants is an effective channel of redistribution, going to pay employees a middle class wage, employ independent farmers, employ delivery drivers, employ cleaning staff, etc. Forget the fact that spending money in such places also contributes to the local economy and doesn't ship most of the money off to wherever the corporate offices are located....
No, we're supposed to spend our money only on approved products and activities. Even if we can afford to save up and eat at such places, or even make enough to eat at such restaurants regularly, we shouldn't because the very concept of enjoying something is inherently classist. To value art and craft means that we don't recognize the struggle that most of the world faces.
Donate all of your income to get down to borderline subsistence levels and eat your protein gruel. That's all you deserve.
posted by mikesch at 4:19 PM on January 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
Forget the fact that merely spending money at such restaurants is an effective channel of redistribution, going to pay employees a middle class wage, employ independent farmers, employ delivery drivers, employ cleaning staff, etc. Forget the fact that spending money in such places also contributes to the local economy and doesn't ship most of the money off to wherever the corporate offices are located....
No, we're supposed to spend our money only on approved products and activities. Even if we can afford to save up and eat at such places, or even make enough to eat at such restaurants regularly, we shouldn't because the very concept of enjoying something is inherently classist. To value art and craft means that we don't recognize the struggle that most of the world faces.
Donate all of your income to get down to borderline subsistence levels and eat your protein gruel. That's all you deserve.
posted by mikesch at 4:19 PM on January 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
Need to bring in Emeril. Bam! He could kick things up a notch...
Never mind Emeril. This is a job for Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares...
posted by PeterMcDermott at 4:21 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Never mind Emeril. This is a job for Ramsay's Kitchen Nightmares...
posted by PeterMcDermott at 4:21 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
they're basically saying fuck ethical producers, fuck caring about where your food came from, fuck the environment, fuck paying people a living wage
While you probably can't get those things in a super-cheap restaurant, you are by no means guaranteed to get them in a very expensive restaurant. They are fairly separate from restaurant quality.
posted by thefoxgod at 4:24 PM on January 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
While you probably can't get those things in a super-cheap restaurant, you are by no means guaranteed to get them in a very expensive restaurant. They are fairly separate from restaurant quality.
posted by thefoxgod at 4:24 PM on January 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
Not guaranteed, maybe. The likelihood of a high end creative restaurant being careful about sourcing, dealing with single-source producers, etc, is much much higher than it is anywhere else.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 4:27 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 4:27 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Veblen Party, your table is ready, Veblen Party who are able to pay $3000 for a single meal, we can seat you now.
This would never happen- the Veblens always book under the name "Downer, Deborah."
And now, Ladies and Gentlemen, for your after-dinner entertainment, please enjoy the Dipping Areas Skit.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 4:29 PM on January 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
This would never happen- the Veblens always book under the name "Downer, Deborah."
And now, Ladies and Gentlemen, for your after-dinner entertainment, please enjoy the Dipping Areas Skit.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 4:29 PM on January 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Take that raw material cost and add in the fact that about 5 guys who get paid pretty well stood around that plate with tweezers arranging it before it went out and the costs start stacking up.
posted by kaiseki at 5:34 PM on January 12 [7 favorites +] [!]
Yep, this checks out.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 4:31 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by kaiseki at 5:34 PM on January 12 [7 favorites +] [!]
Yep, this checks out.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 4:31 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I want to get delicious sauce from the bottom of my plate, joyceanmachine. Which utensil, pray tell, makes that possible?
posted by Bella Donna
This!
posted by joyceanmachine
I can't even see the word cuillère without wanting to imitate the Roi Burgonde.
You can totally eat at a three-star Michelin restaurant for $400, especially if you're being economical with wine. There are some places where you can probably get away with lunch for around $150. That's one thing that makes the prices at Per Se so indefensible.
One of my bench marks for 'is this meal too damn expensive' is: Is it more expensive than a Michelin restaurant? If it is, then I think people are paying for the name and status more than the meal. Or *worse, they just don't know any better, and think that high cost = high quality, or that expensive ingredients=good food. I can give a dozen examples of this from my town alone.
* Or double worse: 'but the chef is French (or Italian) - it must be authentic!'
posted by kanewai at 4:37 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Bella Donna
This!
posted by joyceanmachine
I can't even see the word cuillère without wanting to imitate the Roi Burgonde.
You can totally eat at a three-star Michelin restaurant for $400, especially if you're being economical with wine. There are some places where you can probably get away with lunch for around $150. That's one thing that makes the prices at Per Se so indefensible.
One of my bench marks for 'is this meal too damn expensive' is: Is it more expensive than a Michelin restaurant? If it is, then I think people are paying for the name and status more than the meal. Or *worse, they just don't know any better, and think that high cost = high quality, or that expensive ingredients=good food. I can give a dozen examples of this from my town alone.
* Or double worse: 'but the chef is French (or Italian) - it must be authentic!'
posted by kanewai at 4:37 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
IN ADDITION TO: fuck the entire concept of being really good at something.
Oh, come on, I paid like $8 for a burrito last night and you know what? It was good. Lamb with chili lime sauce (mexican afghan fusion!) and it was well made. They make the sauces etc. and it was damn good. I have had some very expensive and also damn good—indeed, way better, amazing—meals, but you can have meals made by someone who's really good at food for a lot less than $400 a head or whatever the cost is. (There used to be a place in the Mission, actually, where you could get a multi-course tasting menu for like $25, and it was very good.)
posted by kenko at 4:49 PM on January 12, 2016
Oh, come on, I paid like $8 for a burrito last night and you know what? It was good. Lamb with chili lime sauce (mexican afghan fusion!) and it was well made. They make the sauces etc. and it was damn good. I have had some very expensive and also damn good—indeed, way better, amazing—meals, but you can have meals made by someone who's really good at food for a lot less than $400 a head or whatever the cost is. (There used to be a place in the Mission, actually, where you could get a multi-course tasting menu for like $25, and it was very good.)
posted by kenko at 4:49 PM on January 12, 2016
I don't care how much money any given person wants to pay for really excellent/fancy/cutting-edge food, but positing joints that weave elaborate continental class-pandering rituals into the dining experience as the de facto most ethical possible restaurant choice is pretty ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ imho
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:54 PM on January 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:54 PM on January 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
$25 for multiple courses means the quality of the original ingredients is crap, the people working there are being paid crap, and/or they grow all their own food.
May have tasted nice, and no way was anyone in that setup being treated ethically.
And sure yeah you can get meals made by someone who's really good at food for a lot less than $400. You can also see great concerts for less than $150--but you're not seeing Adele for less.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 4:55 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
May have tasted nice, and no way was anyone in that setup being treated ethically.
And sure yeah you can get meals made by someone who's really good at food for a lot less than $400. You can also see great concerts for less than $150--but you're not seeing Adele for less.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 4:55 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
the people working there are being paid crap
It was exactly one guy.
posted by kenko at 4:56 PM on January 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
It was exactly one guy.
posted by kenko at 4:56 PM on January 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
I just don't get why anyone cares about whether people like to pay for fine food.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:57 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:57 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
So he's paying himself crap then. Off any restaurant dish, take 30% immediately--that's covering rent, electricity, etc. So he's max spending $16 on the ingredients. And that's not possible, because he still needs to pay for his own labour.
I'm continually amazed that those of us who actually work in the industry get totally sidelined and poo-pood when we try to tell you folks how it actually works.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 4:58 PM on January 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
I'm continually amazed that those of us who actually work in the industry get totally sidelined and poo-pood when we try to tell you folks how it actually works.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 4:58 PM on January 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
$15? For that?
Dude is cutting serious corners somewhere.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 5:01 PM on January 12, 2016
Dude is cutting serious corners somewhere.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 5:01 PM on January 12, 2016
I'm continually amazed that those of us who actually work in the industry get totally sidelined and poo-pood when we try to tell you folks how it actually works.
My sister worked as a chef in several fine dining restaurants in NY and LA (including one that's been mentioned in this very thread); I have actually heard from her before about many, many, many shitty aspects of restaurant work. I have no idea how the Mr. Pollo guy managed to make his thing work and the answer may well be that he paid himself extreme crap, but that strikes me as a way better option than paying your non-you line chefs crap. (Not that I think people should punish themselves for their passions!)
posted by kenko at 5:01 PM on January 12, 2016
My sister worked as a chef in several fine dining restaurants in NY and LA (including one that's been mentioned in this very thread); I have actually heard from her before about many, many, many shitty aspects of restaurant work. I have no idea how the Mr. Pollo guy managed to make his thing work and the answer may well be that he paid himself extreme crap, but that strikes me as a way better option than paying your non-you line chefs crap. (Not that I think people should punish themselves for their passions!)
posted by kenko at 5:01 PM on January 12, 2016
Yes I live down the street from Mr. Pollo and was in there a few weeks ago. Yes you can get very good meals for very little money in my neighborhood. But you're at some level deluding yourself if you think the sourcing is the same as Chez Panisse.
They've raised their prices to $30, btw. And it's two dudes who work there. They do not own the restaurant. And I'm pretty sure the spam in the Hawaiian soup they served me wasn't homemade...
posted by danny the boy at 5:04 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
They've raised their prices to $30, btw. And it's two dudes who work there. They do not own the restaurant. And I'm pretty sure the spam in the Hawaiian soup they served me wasn't homemade...
posted by danny the boy at 5:04 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Mr. Pollo was actually a pretty bad example for the claim that you can get food that's very well made by people who are really good at what they do for far less than Per Se prices. But I stand by the claim!
posted by kenko at 5:05 PM on January 12, 2016
posted by kenko at 5:05 PM on January 12, 2016
Like I would summarize Mr. Pollo as the restaurant version of the show Chopped. Which if you don't know, is a food network gameshow where they make cooks prepare "fine dining" courses out of supermarket bullshit.
posted by danny the boy at 5:06 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by danny the boy at 5:06 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
And it's two dudes who work there.
It used to be one, though, and he's since left completely. I wasn't even sure if it was still open at all.
I'm sure that e.g. the fruit there didn't come from Frog Hollow or anything, but the Alemany farmer's market, e.g., (as I'm sure you, danny the boy, know) is not the home solely of "supermarket bullshit".
posted by kenko at 5:09 PM on January 12, 2016
It used to be one, though, and he's since left completely. I wasn't even sure if it was still open at all.
I'm sure that e.g. the fruit there didn't come from Frog Hollow or anything, but the Alemany farmer's market, e.g., (as I'm sure you, danny the boy, know) is not the home solely of "supermarket bullshit".
posted by kenko at 5:09 PM on January 12, 2016
Dude I'm just waiting for someone to come in here and tell you that you're a privileged richie for spending $8 on a burrito that only cost $.49 to make, and that you're directly contributing to the gentrification of the neighborhood and the oppression of its people by lining that taqueria's pockets with your filthy money.
posted by danny the boy at 5:17 PM on January 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by danny the boy at 5:17 PM on January 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
I can't wait to hear how I'm contributing to the gentrification of Solano Ave.
posted by kenko at 5:29 PM on January 12, 2016
posted by kenko at 5:29 PM on January 12, 2016
(I realize that you are likely not really waiting for that.)
posted by kenko at 5:29 PM on January 12, 2016
posted by kenko at 5:29 PM on January 12, 2016
Seriously, is there nothing in your life that you'd pay a 100-150% premium to enjoy a straight-up extraordinary version of it?
Well, camping and kayaking (or some combination thereof) are my thing and I suppose I've paid close to $3000 in the past for travel, supplies, gear, and permits in order to have the exact opposite of a high-end dining experience. But it doesn't bother me when people wrinkle their noses at my hobby. Why must we all be appreciators? None of the snarkers are being mean or personal. It's not a moral failing to roll your eyes at the hobbies of others.
posted by um at 5:45 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Well, camping and kayaking (or some combination thereof) are my thing and I suppose I've paid close to $3000 in the past for travel, supplies, gear, and permits in order to have the exact opposite of a high-end dining experience. But it doesn't bother me when people wrinkle their noses at my hobby. Why must we all be appreciators? None of the snarkers are being mean or personal. It's not a moral failing to roll your eyes at the hobbies of others.
posted by um at 5:45 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Solano could use a few less frame shops, though, and it'll take some gentrification to pull that off.
This Mr Pollo is on Solano Ave? Gordos is pretty good, but I'm intrigued now.
posted by notyou at 5:53 PM on January 12, 2016
This Mr Pollo is on Solano Ave? Gordos is pretty good, but I'm intrigued now.
posted by notyou at 5:53 PM on January 12, 2016
This is a Thing on fine dining menus. It indicates that what you're getting will be the general idea/shape/texture of the air-quoted thing, but not made in the traditional manner. If you look at the recipe for oysters and pearls you'll note that while you're getting the same texture as a sabayon, it is not made in the textbook fashion. It's half in-joke, half setting expectations.
Okay, I would buy this except what is the deal with " "Assortment of Desserts" "? Are they not exactly desserts, not exactly assorted?
Keller is very, very deeply trained in classical (Escoffier) French cuisine. That comes with certain traditions.
One of which is correct French grammar - if you pluralize the noun, you pluralize the adjective. "Pommes purées," not "pommes purée."
posted by gingerest at 5:55 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Okay, I would buy this except what is the deal with " "Assortment of Desserts" "? Are they not exactly desserts, not exactly assorted?
Keller is very, very deeply trained in classical (Escoffier) French cuisine. That comes with certain traditions.
One of which is correct French grammar - if you pluralize the noun, you pluralize the adjective. "Pommes purées," not "pommes purée."
posted by gingerest at 5:55 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
I never said the grammar was perfect--obviously some of those are superfluous quotation marks. And likely few people actually speak French there, just following the tradition.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:10 PM on January 12, 2016
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:10 PM on January 12, 2016
In response to Kitteh and others, what I find odd about this thread is not the fact that some people are violently opposed to these high-end restaurants (I get that, it's just basic eat-the-rich) but rather the rather passionate defensiveness by many people toward these kinds of restaurants. I would in fact say that the defenders vastly outnumber the attackers, though the defenders seem to believe that they're in the minority. I guess frankly I'm more interested in um's point of view: what is it about this food that makes people so attached to it?
I'm tempted to chalk it up to a form of elite cultural capital that seems accessible. It's built on the common experience of food, lots of people have experience expressing their identity by choosing one restaurant over another, and it is possible for even low-income people to have this experience at least infrequently. But this is just a guess.
And likely few people actually speak French there, just following the tradition.
C'mon, this is a little weak. If they can't carry on one supposedly key tradition correctly at the elementary level, how can you be sure they're executing Escoffier cuisine correctly?
posted by crazy with stars at 6:14 PM on January 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'm tempted to chalk it up to a form of elite cultural capital that seems accessible. It's built on the common experience of food, lots of people have experience expressing their identity by choosing one restaurant over another, and it is possible for even low-income people to have this experience at least infrequently. But this is just a guess.
And likely few people actually speak French there, just following the tradition.
C'mon, this is a little weak. If they can't carry on one supposedly key tradition correctly at the elementary level, how can you be sure they're executing Escoffier cuisine correctly?
posted by crazy with stars at 6:14 PM on January 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Solano could use a few less frame shops, though, and it'll take some gentrification to pull that off.
It will only become truly gentrified when all the frame stores are replaced by even more lighting stores.
Mr Pollo is in downtown Berkeley. Reading this thread on BART I almost got off and got dinner there, but I ended up ordering a pizza from Lanesplitter. Gordo is my favorite burrito place ever though (Chile verde, black beans, rice, sour cream, extra spicy, thankyouverymuch)
posted by mikesch at 6:16 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
It will only become truly gentrified when all the frame stores are replaced by even more lighting stores.
Mr Pollo is in downtown Berkeley. Reading this thread on BART I almost got off and got dinner there, but I ended up ordering a pizza from Lanesplitter. Gordo is my favorite burrito place ever though (Chile verde, black beans, rice, sour cream, extra spicy, thankyouverymuch)
posted by mikesch at 6:16 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Mr Pollo is in downtown Berkeley.
That's a different Mr. Pollo. The one in downtown Berkeley isn't doing prix fixe menus at any price.
posted by asterix at 6:19 PM on January 12, 2016
That's a different Mr. Pollo. The one in downtown Berkeley isn't doing prix fixe menus at any price.
posted by asterix at 6:19 PM on January 12, 2016
That's a different Mr. Pollo. The one in downtown Berkeley isn't doing prix fixe menus at any price.
Whoops, read too quickly and was thinking Pollo. Was wondering what you all were talking about since I don't recall them having anything beyonf diner food.
I regret the error.
posted by mikesch at 6:22 PM on January 12, 2016
Whoops, read too quickly and was thinking Pollo. Was wondering what you all were talking about since I don't recall them having anything beyonf diner food.
I regret the error.
posted by mikesch at 6:22 PM on January 12, 2016
I would in fact say that the defenders vastly outnumber the attackers, though the defenders seem to believe that they're in the minority
In my case, it's because this is the kind of food I am passionate about making, the kind of food that I have been trained to make, and the kind of food that I am sick unto death of people around here going "hurf durf it's just food innit."
Going to these restaurants, making this kind of food, is about as close to eating dinner at home as listening to an mp3 is to an arena-level concert. It is art, it is not fuel.
So basically, I'm just sick and damn tired of the reverse-snobbery preening that always shows up in these threads, because they are directly attacking the form of expression that I am dedicating my life to, that I have lost friendships for, that is slowly ruining my body. Have some goddamn respect.
Cmon, this is a little weak. If they can't carry on one supposedly key tradition correctly at the elementary level, how can you be sure they're executing Escoffier cuisine correctly?
It's not a 'key' tradition, it's just a tradition (high end menus used to be, and still are in some places, written exclusively in French; using mainly English with French/Italian/____ words peppered in is now the common standard), and one doesn't need to know the grammatical rules of French (which I do, btw; Canada is bilingual and you have to learn French in Ontario schools) in order to execute a list of nouns.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:23 PM on January 12, 2016 [16 favorites]
In my case, it's because this is the kind of food I am passionate about making, the kind of food that I have been trained to make, and the kind of food that I am sick unto death of people around here going "hurf durf it's just food innit."
Going to these restaurants, making this kind of food, is about as close to eating dinner at home as listening to an mp3 is to an arena-level concert. It is art, it is not fuel.
So basically, I'm just sick and damn tired of the reverse-snobbery preening that always shows up in these threads, because they are directly attacking the form of expression that I am dedicating my life to, that I have lost friendships for, that is slowly ruining my body. Have some goddamn respect.
Cmon, this is a little weak. If they can't carry on one supposedly key tradition correctly at the elementary level, how can you be sure they're executing Escoffier cuisine correctly?
It's not a 'key' tradition, it's just a tradition (high end menus used to be, and still are in some places, written exclusively in French; using mainly English with French/Italian/____ words peppered in is now the common standard), and one doesn't need to know the grammatical rules of French (which I do, btw; Canada is bilingual and you have to learn French in Ontario schools) in order to execute a list of nouns.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:23 PM on January 12, 2016 [16 favorites]
what I find odd about this thread is not the fact that some people are violently opposed to these high-end restaurants (I get that, it's just basic eat-the-rich) but rather the rather passionate defensiveness by many people toward these kinds of restaurants. I would in fact say that the defenders vastly outnumber the attackers, though the defenders seem to believe that they're in the minority.
I’m going to agree on that, I really didn’t see that much attacking, though you lost me on the next part.
I was trying to say there’s a difference between "I would never pay that much, that seems crazy to me because I’m not that into it" and "You are in fact a fool and a bad person for paying that much, it empirically cannot be worth it and all things should be cheap"
I’m not a foodie at all. I would never pay that much, it would be wasted on me (unless you’re buying, which is the only way I had really expensive meals, then I’m in). But I don’t understand why people buy boats or lots of things with their money, doesn’t mean it’s wrong or a ripoff. Some things that aspire for a certain level of quality are just going to be disproportionately expensive, economy of scale doesn’t kick in.
You don’t even want to know what I’m considering spending on speakers. Less than a boat though.
posted by bongo_x at 6:30 PM on January 12, 2016
I’m going to agree on that, I really didn’t see that much attacking, though you lost me on the next part.
I was trying to say there’s a difference between "I would never pay that much, that seems crazy to me because I’m not that into it" and "You are in fact a fool and a bad person for paying that much, it empirically cannot be worth it and all things should be cheap"
I’m not a foodie at all. I would never pay that much, it would be wasted on me (unless you’re buying, which is the only way I had really expensive meals, then I’m in). But I don’t understand why people buy boats or lots of things with their money, doesn’t mean it’s wrong or a ripoff. Some things that aspire for a certain level of quality are just going to be disproportionately expensive, economy of scale doesn’t kick in.
You don’t even want to know what I’m considering spending on speakers. Less than a boat though.
posted by bongo_x at 6:30 PM on January 12, 2016
I just find attacking people for spending $X on one meal to be a deeply misdirected moral judgment. Surely the problem is not that people are spending $X on one meal, it's that they have $X to spend on one meal. Tell me that you disapprove of a society that concentrates so much wealth into so few hands as to support not only Per Se, but a dozen or so other restaurants in NYC that charge over $200 for a prix fixe meal, I will probably be with you. Fuss at me about how one particular person happens to dispose of that wealth (at least, in ways not intrinsically harmful to others), and I will think you are stuck in that peculiar American mindset that treats individual consumer decisions as the most significant form of civic engagement. The problem with Martin Shkreli is really, really not that he bought a $120 cup of tea.
posted by praemunire at 6:40 PM on January 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 6:40 PM on January 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
Agreed. It's that he bought a Wu Tang album no one else can hear.
posted by OmieWise at 6:44 PM on January 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by OmieWise at 6:44 PM on January 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
What is it about this food that makes people so attached to it? I'm tempted to chalk it up to a form of elite cultural capital that seems accessible.
Heh. To elucidate my irrational attachment to these eminent culinary experiences, I must needs fall back on a tripartite justification: NOM NOM NOM.
posted by storybored at 6:46 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Heh. To elucidate my irrational attachment to these eminent culinary experiences, I must needs fall back on a tripartite justification: NOM NOM NOM.
posted by storybored at 6:46 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Many restaurants at this level have a lot of really ordinary everyday people as their guests. People who save up for one magnificent experience.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:49 PM on January 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:49 PM on January 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
Yeah, have you priced taking the family to Disneyland?
posted by bongo_x at 6:52 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by bongo_x at 6:52 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Just to get this off burritos on Solano Ave, we thought Ad Hoc was kinda underwhelming, too, but we chalked that up to our French Laundry expectations carried in to a more middlebrow venue. (Also, we weren't there on Fried Chicken night. And oh yeah, there was some grit in the add-on clams.) It was good, anyway! But Napa has plenty of finer (and less dear) options.
The Ad Hoc cookbook has been a revelation, tho. Setting aside a rainy Saturday to try making confit duck legs.
posted by notyou at 7:03 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
The Ad Hoc cookbook has been a revelation, tho. Setting aside a rainy Saturday to try making confit duck legs.
posted by notyou at 7:03 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
What is it about this food that makes people so attached to it? I'm tempted to chalk it up to a form of elite cultural capital that seems accessible.
What makes people so attached to food? Try going without it for a while.
posted by notyou at 7:06 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
What makes people so attached to food? Try going without it for a while.
posted by notyou at 7:06 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
I am neither a foodie (nor an adventurous enough eater that I could ever become a foodie of the type who eats at a place like this where you don't get to pick what you eat or tell them to hold the green peppers or whatever) nor a person who feels any sort of disdain toward people choosing to spend their money this way. *
Anyway, with all the fine-diners and non-fine-diners in the thread, I have a related question that I've often wondered about. There's a well-known (and thus possibly false but go with me here) finding that connoisseurs of all sorts, including foodies, enjoy the object of their connoisseur less than non-connoisseurs. So if you give a glass of wine to someone who cares a whole lot about wine (even a supposedly great glass of wine) they'll enjoy it less than a causal win drinker. Same for meals. Give a meal to a foodie and non-foodied and the foodie will say they enjoyed it less than the non-foodie.
So the problem with this seems to be that if you're asking people to rate how much they enjoyed something, they might have actually have enjoyed it a similar amount, but the connoisseur is focused on what they didn't enjoy about it rather than the level of enjoyment they actually derived. So, does anyone know of any research that has attempted to account for this? I'm not sure how this would work but maybe measuring dopamine (would that be the right neurotransmitter) released when having an experience?
*I do feel some lingering disdain for anyone who uses that many quotation marks without quoting anyone, but a little less disdain than I felt before hearing the explantion.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:28 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Anyway, with all the fine-diners and non-fine-diners in the thread, I have a related question that I've often wondered about. There's a well-known (and thus possibly false but go with me here) finding that connoisseurs of all sorts, including foodies, enjoy the object of their connoisseur less than non-connoisseurs. So if you give a glass of wine to someone who cares a whole lot about wine (even a supposedly great glass of wine) they'll enjoy it less than a causal win drinker. Same for meals. Give a meal to a foodie and non-foodied and the foodie will say they enjoyed it less than the non-foodie.
So the problem with this seems to be that if you're asking people to rate how much they enjoyed something, they might have actually have enjoyed it a similar amount, but the connoisseur is focused on what they didn't enjoy about it rather than the level of enjoyment they actually derived. So, does anyone know of any research that has attempted to account for this? I'm not sure how this would work but maybe measuring dopamine (would that be the right neurotransmitter) released when having an experience?
*I do feel some lingering disdain for anyone who uses that many quotation marks without quoting anyone, but a little less disdain than I felt before hearing the explantion.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:28 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Do you have a cite for this "finding"?
posted by neroli at 7:31 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by neroli at 7:31 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
So, does anyone know of any research that has attempted to account for this? I'm not sure how this would work but maybe measuring dopamine (would that be the right neurotransmitter) released when having an experience?
I don't know of any research supporting the claim you're making. I do know of research supporting the hypothesis that people enjoy things --- in particular, wine --- more when they think they're expensive. For real and for true, they used an MRI and everything. (h/t Felix Salmon.) Flip side of the old Folger's commercials, really --- if you had Keller's oysters and pearls served to you at a Long John Silvers, you might well enjoy it less than at Per Se.
It's possible that a disappointing experience at a place you're primed to find awesome is therefore more displeasing then an equally inept effort at a place you think of as cheap and cruddy to begin with, but now I'm merely hypothesizing without evidence.
posted by Diablevert at 7:41 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
I don't know of any research supporting the claim you're making. I do know of research supporting the hypothesis that people enjoy things --- in particular, wine --- more when they think they're expensive. For real and for true, they used an MRI and everything. (h/t Felix Salmon.) Flip side of the old Folger's commercials, really --- if you had Keller's oysters and pearls served to you at a Long John Silvers, you might well enjoy it less than at Per Se.
It's possible that a disappointing experience at a place you're primed to find awesome is therefore more displeasing then an equally inept effort at a place you think of as cheap and cruddy to begin with, but now I'm merely hypothesizing without evidence.
posted by Diablevert at 7:41 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Do you have a cite for this "finding"?
Nope, that's why I implied it's possibly apocryphal. I feel like I've read about it a number of times, though.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:51 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Nope, that's why I implied it's possibly apocryphal. I feel like I've read about it a number of times, though.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 7:51 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think it gives me less patience for something done poorly, and a much deeper appreciation of something done well. This goes for anything anyone likes really, sports or literature or comedy or whatever: the more you learn about the thing and fine tune your tastes, the more you can appreciate something that's really knocking it out of the park. And the less time you have for something done not so well.
if you had Keller's oysters and pearls served to you at a Long John Silvers, you might well enjoy it less than at Per Se.
Part of the priming there is that at Per Se or TFL you know it's handmade, high quality ingredients. At LJS, not so much. So I think at LJS there would be an apprehension followed by pleasant surprise at how good it is, while at a Keller restaurant there's an expectation it'll hit a certain level.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:55 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
if you had Keller's oysters and pearls served to you at a Long John Silvers, you might well enjoy it less than at Per Se.
Part of the priming there is that at Per Se or TFL you know it's handmade, high quality ingredients. At LJS, not so much. So I think at LJS there would be an apprehension followed by pleasant surprise at how good it is, while at a Keller restaurant there's an expectation it'll hit a certain level.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:55 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Surely the problem is not that people are spending $X on one meal, it's that they have $X to spend on one meal.
Plenty of folks in this thread have said they save for a long time to be able to afford going there.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:55 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Plenty of folks in this thread have said they save for a long time to be able to afford going there.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:55 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Well, camping and kayaking (or some combination thereof) are my thing and I suppose I've paid close to $3000 in the past for travel, supplies, gear, and permits in order to have the exact opposite of a high-end dining experience. But it doesn't bother me when people wrinkle their noses at my hobby. Why must we all be appreciators? None of the snarkers are being mean or personal. It's not a moral failing to roll your eyes at the hobbies of others.
If your camping/kayaking/outdoor adventure thread on mefi was full of idiots who have never been outdoors and proceed to tell you how stupid it is to run around in the woods for no reason, plus it's a waste of time when we all have houses now, and deduce that it must be some kind of performative class affectation, you'd be cool with that? How about if EVERY SINGLE THREAD on the subject decayed into that same argument?
I'm tempted to chalk it up to a form of elite cultural capital that seems accessible. It's built on the common experience of food, lots of people have experience expressing their identity by choosing one restaurant over another
Or you could listen to all the people who have explained why, right here in this thread! I'm going to posit that the disconnect here is like the one where people don't "get" art. Fashion is art you wear, music is art you hear, cuisine is art you consume. So when someone describes the joy they experienced at an exceptional meal and your eyes glaze over that comment and your brain doesn't even register it as existing and you proceed to ask "what's it all about"... well I don't know man, I probably can't explain it. Sure, go with "elite cultural capital".
posted by danny the boy at 8:09 PM on January 12, 2016 [21 favorites]
If your camping/kayaking/outdoor adventure thread on mefi was full of idiots who have never been outdoors and proceed to tell you how stupid it is to run around in the woods for no reason, plus it's a waste of time when we all have houses now, and deduce that it must be some kind of performative class affectation, you'd be cool with that? How about if EVERY SINGLE THREAD on the subject decayed into that same argument?
I'm tempted to chalk it up to a form of elite cultural capital that seems accessible. It's built on the common experience of food, lots of people have experience expressing their identity by choosing one restaurant over another
Or you could listen to all the people who have explained why, right here in this thread! I'm going to posit that the disconnect here is like the one where people don't "get" art. Fashion is art you wear, music is art you hear, cuisine is art you consume. So when someone describes the joy they experienced at an exceptional meal and your eyes glaze over that comment and your brain doesn't even register it as existing and you proceed to ask "what's it all about"... well I don't know man, I probably can't explain it. Sure, go with "elite cultural capital".
posted by danny the boy at 8:09 PM on January 12, 2016 [21 favorites]
if you had Keller's oysters and pearls served to you at a Long John Silvers, you might well enjoy it less than at Per Se.
That's one of the dishes that I didn't "get". I'd read the recipe for it, and it sounded delicious! But I tried it, and it hasn't left a lasting impression. It was kind of soupy and pleasantly briny… Mainly I thought the portion was so fracking tiny.
Another time I was gifted the potato chive chip in black truffle eggshell. The chip was tough and hard. Is it supposed to be like that? Did they bake it wrong? This was around 2012.
But, reasons. I might not like a dish because I've just sat down and not feeling refreshed yet, or focused - or conversely, towards the end, when I'm feeling stuffed and my attention is lagging. Sometimes I don't enjoy the dish because I'm focused on conversation instead of the food. Or when mean waiters are turning me off! Sometimes, it's that my culinary context is different, the antidote being a matter of exposure, knowledge, and having a developed (say, well-traveled) palate (connoisseurs attempt this deliberately by trying to collect novelty). There are times I don't appreciate the qualities of a food until days, or weeks afterward, when I've given it thought and had a chance to gauge against regular people food again. Much of fine art tends to act that way - complex information takes time to process and get used to. The more cerebral the cooking, the more that comes into play. It is how Thomas Keller has described the cuisine at the late Corton—the keen awareness that "you're not sure you like it, because you've never had anything like it before"—the restaurant eventually closed because in part because even in such a cosmopolitan city as New York, a practicing chef's creative aspirations have to meet financial reality.
And, sometimes, yes, it's that the food was mediocre due to execution or ingredient quality. But I'm usually willing to lend benefit of doubt.
In that vein, I'd like to know if anyone eating at these places have ever seriously requested seconds. I think every high-end restaurant should allow a quota of 1 second order - and I would use that opportunity to request a dish I thought that I didn't understand; not necessarily the dish that I liked the most. It's the hospitable thing to provide!
posted by polymodus at 8:31 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
That's one of the dishes that I didn't "get". I'd read the recipe for it, and it sounded delicious! But I tried it, and it hasn't left a lasting impression. It was kind of soupy and pleasantly briny… Mainly I thought the portion was so fracking tiny.
Another time I was gifted the potato chive chip in black truffle eggshell. The chip was tough and hard. Is it supposed to be like that? Did they bake it wrong? This was around 2012.
But, reasons. I might not like a dish because I've just sat down and not feeling refreshed yet, or focused - or conversely, towards the end, when I'm feeling stuffed and my attention is lagging. Sometimes I don't enjoy the dish because I'm focused on conversation instead of the food. Or when mean waiters are turning me off! Sometimes, it's that my culinary context is different, the antidote being a matter of exposure, knowledge, and having a developed (say, well-traveled) palate (connoisseurs attempt this deliberately by trying to collect novelty). There are times I don't appreciate the qualities of a food until days, or weeks afterward, when I've given it thought and had a chance to gauge against regular people food again. Much of fine art tends to act that way - complex information takes time to process and get used to. The more cerebral the cooking, the more that comes into play. It is how Thomas Keller has described the cuisine at the late Corton—the keen awareness that "you're not sure you like it, because you've never had anything like it before"—the restaurant eventually closed because in part because even in such a cosmopolitan city as New York, a practicing chef's creative aspirations have to meet financial reality.
And, sometimes, yes, it's that the food was mediocre due to execution or ingredient quality. But I'm usually willing to lend benefit of doubt.
In that vein, I'd like to know if anyone eating at these places have ever seriously requested seconds. I think every high-end restaurant should allow a quota of 1 second order - and I would use that opportunity to request a dish I thought that I didn't understand; not necessarily the dish that I liked the most. It's the hospitable thing to provide!
posted by polymodus at 8:31 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
In that vein, I'd like to know if anyone eating at these places have ever seriously requested seconds.
They didn't quite request seconds, but a couple I know who dined at TFL raved about one course and the kitchen sent out another portion each, and also sent them home with loads of the bread they loved in their goodie bag.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:36 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
They didn't quite request seconds, but a couple I know who dined at TFL raved about one course and the kitchen sent out another portion each, and also sent them home with loads of the bread they loved in their goodie bag.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:36 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
As a semi-foodie, I'm interested in the problem of figuring out whether an expensive restaurant is worth a visit. For example, in the Eater review, it mentions the brand of champagne flute being used by the restaurant. I have to admit I'm not going to be able to appreciate the difference. So how do I decide what my max bang-for-the-buck is, given my vague knowledge of my own taste-bud and culinary limitations?
posted by storybored at 8:42 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by storybored at 8:42 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh and actually my last boyfriend, when dining at Kokkeriet with his family (* to noma's **) ended up requesting another portion of one course--oysters or caviar, can't remember which, he was a fiend for both.
Thing is, with reso-only and tasting menu-only, it's actually pretty hard for the kitchen to just zoom out extra portions willy-nilly. You don't want to over-prep too much, especially when you know the exact numbers you're serving that night, and you definitely don't want to be caught short later.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:45 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Thing is, with reso-only and tasting menu-only, it's actually pretty hard for the kitchen to just zoom out extra portions willy-nilly. You don't want to over-prep too much, especially when you know the exact numbers you're serving that night, and you definitely don't want to be caught short later.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:45 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
I feel like I've read about it a number of times, though.
Seems like I recall having read something like that too. Doesn't make it any less apocryphal, but at least it indicates that IIOHAP wasn't imagining things. Or at least, not the only one imagining that...I'll stop digging this hole of equivocations now...
Anyway, the impression I have from...somewhere...was that people who care deeply about X are less likely to be impressed by average or even pretty-good examples of X - because they're very aware of how much better a really prime example of X can be. On the other hand, people who don't care as deeply about X are more easily satisfied by even average examples of X.
For example, I care more about scotch than I do about gin (I'm no highly-experienced scotch taster, but I've learned enough to have Preferences and Opinions). So I'm more likely to be okay with a call-brand gin martini than I am with, say, a shot of Johnny Walker neat instead of a premium single-malt. And I care even less about wine, so I'm happy with Two Buck Chuck (actually more like $3 now) for table wine.
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:47 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Seems like I recall having read something like that too. Doesn't make it any less apocryphal, but at least it indicates that IIOHAP wasn't imagining things. Or at least, not the only one imagining that...I'll stop digging this hole of equivocations now...
Anyway, the impression I have from...somewhere...was that people who care deeply about X are less likely to be impressed by average or even pretty-good examples of X - because they're very aware of how much better a really prime example of X can be. On the other hand, people who don't care as deeply about X are more easily satisfied by even average examples of X.
For example, I care more about scotch than I do about gin (I'm no highly-experienced scotch taster, but I've learned enough to have Preferences and Opinions). So I'm more likely to be okay with a call-brand gin martini than I am with, say, a shot of Johnny Walker neat instead of a premium single-malt. And I care even less about wine, so I'm happy with Two Buck Chuck (actually more like $3 now) for table wine.
posted by Greg_Ace at 8:47 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
If your camping/kayaking/outdoor adventure thread on mefi was full of idiots who have never been outdoors and proceed to tell you how stupid it is to run around in the woods for no reason, plus it's a waste of time when we all have houses now, and deduce that it must be some kind of performative class affectation, you'd be cool with that?
Of course. Outdoor stuff is my jam. It is not everyone's jam. I mean, if people started issuing threats that's different. But if people take issue with camping and campers and want to blow off some steam it's fine with me personally. That doesn't make them idiots.
posted by um at 8:48 PM on January 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
Of course. Outdoor stuff is my jam. It is not everyone's jam. I mean, if people started issuing threats that's different. But if people take issue with camping and campers and want to blow off some steam it's fine with me personally. That doesn't make them idiots.
posted by um at 8:48 PM on January 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
Ad Hoc, on regular days, is solid food. It was never meant to be revelatory. It was meant as a place for the locals to come eat at. I wouldn't make a special trip, but I would stop if you're in the area.
Their fried chicken, however, is the best I've ever had. It's also the best several of my southern friends have had. I've made it, and its certainly a reasonable thing to dedicate a weekend to, my poor frying skills notwithstanding. So: go to Addendum if you can't make Ad Hoc's chicken night, don't bother with the ribs or pulled pork, and get the bucket because you're going to want more than two pieces.
posted by danny the boy at 8:50 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Their fried chicken, however, is the best I've ever had. It's also the best several of my southern friends have had. I've made it, and its certainly a reasonable thing to dedicate a weekend to, my poor frying skills notwithstanding. So: go to Addendum if you can't make Ad Hoc's chicken night, don't bother with the ribs or pulled pork, and get the bucket because you're going to want more than two pieces.
posted by danny the boy at 8:50 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I've never asked for seconds mostly because with tasting menus I know I'm going to struggle to finish everything they give me, and I don't want to have NOT tried something. The idea that haute cuisine leaves you hungry is... the complete opposite of my experience. The loot bag exists because if they managed the meal right (in my opinion), you shouldn't be able to even contemplate the mignardises.
posted by danny the boy at 9:15 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by danny the boy at 9:15 PM on January 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
The star rating of Per Se is academic to me, since I'm more likely to pay $20 for dinner than $200+, but I'm grateful to the NYT's review for introducing me to kobujime. I've made lox before by curing salmon in salt, sugar, and dill for a few days, and the same author's recipe for kobujime looks good too.
posted by Rangi at 9:23 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Rangi at 9:23 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Lucky I didn't say anything about the dirty knife!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 9:26 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 9:26 PM on January 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
I would in fact say that the defenders vastly outnumber the attackers, though the defenders seem to believe that they're in the minority.
For some sadistic reason I feel compelled to read the whole thread every time this topic comes up, and I think this is the first time I've seen the defenders be so much more vocal than the attackers. Maybe it's pent-up frustration. I don't think I've ever posted a response in one of these threads before, but they always piss me off for similar reasons to what others have posted.
posted by primethyme at 10:19 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
For some sadistic reason I feel compelled to read the whole thread every time this topic comes up, and I think this is the first time I've seen the defenders be so much more vocal than the attackers. Maybe it's pent-up frustration. I don't think I've ever posted a response in one of these threads before, but they always piss me off for similar reasons to what others have posted.
posted by primethyme at 10:19 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
they always piss me off for similar reasons to what others have posted.
Very strategic of you to take a side without taking sides.
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:48 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Very strategic of you to take a side without taking sides.
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:48 PM on January 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
full of idiots
And there we have it. The reason why I despise this whole scene - people who think they are better than other people because they think they have a greater appreciation of something. The snobbery is breathtaking.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 11:22 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
And there we have it. The reason why I despise this whole scene - people who think they are better than other people because they think they have a greater appreciation of something. The snobbery is breathtaking.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 11:22 PM on January 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah um you failed to read the context on either side of those three words.
For one thing, the usual shitting in these threads is no different than "your favourite band sucks," or "would I need a TV to understand this," which are both pretty widely regarded as useless comments at best.
For another, the usual shitting is by people who have literally no idea what this kind of food is about--again, see the context that you missed, about people essentially saying "why go outside we have houses"--which, again, is pretty widely regarded as useless commentary.
This isn't snobbery. I'm not better because I appreciate this food. It's the active shitting on this kind of food that is the problem. Don't like it? Fine, that's your thing. Spouting entirely ignorant opinions about the art form I--and others right here in this thread--devote our lives to at great cost to ourselves? That's horseshit.
That's the context you ignored in order to post your own snobbery.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:35 PM on January 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
For one thing, the usual shitting in these threads is no different than "your favourite band sucks," or "would I need a TV to understand this," which are both pretty widely regarded as useless comments at best.
For another, the usual shitting is by people who have literally no idea what this kind of food is about--again, see the context that you missed, about people essentially saying "why go outside we have houses"--which, again, is pretty widely regarded as useless commentary.
This isn't snobbery. I'm not better because I appreciate this food. It's the active shitting on this kind of food that is the problem. Don't like it? Fine, that's your thing. Spouting entirely ignorant opinions about the art form I--and others right here in this thread--devote our lives to at great cost to ourselves? That's horseshit.
That's the context you ignored in order to post your own snobbery.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:35 PM on January 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
In that vein, I'd like to know if anyone eating at these places have ever seriously requested seconds.
One of the advantages of a sushi omakase is that the chef can leave a spot or two open for "seconds." My second helping of uni at Ichimura was perhaps my single most concentrated moment of bliss (while eating, anyway ;) ever.
Plenty of folks in this thread have said they save for a long time to be able to afford going there.
And there are more than plenty of folks for whom saving $1500 for a dinner, even a special occasion, isn't vaguely realistic, and never, ever will be, no matter how hard they work. I'm saying that the anger or moral revulsion some people express in this context doesn't come from a completely irrational place. For a little while there, I was able to afford to eat in nice NYC restaurants on a regular basis and the really expensive places two or three times a year (which is to say, I was very small fry in the city); I was really not that much meritorious than the woman who cleaned my office and may never even have heard of Per Se. It's hard to imagine how a world that dealt me my lot and her hers could possibly be just.
posted by praemunire at 11:38 PM on January 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
One of the advantages of a sushi omakase is that the chef can leave a spot or two open for "seconds." My second helping of uni at Ichimura was perhaps my single most concentrated moment of bliss (while eating, anyway ;) ever.
Plenty of folks in this thread have said they save for a long time to be able to afford going there.
And there are more than plenty of folks for whom saving $1500 for a dinner, even a special occasion, isn't vaguely realistic, and never, ever will be, no matter how hard they work. I'm saying that the anger or moral revulsion some people express in this context doesn't come from a completely irrational place. For a little while there, I was able to afford to eat in nice NYC restaurants on a regular basis and the really expensive places two or three times a year (which is to say, I was very small fry in the city); I was really not that much meritorious than the woman who cleaned my office and may never even have heard of Per Se. It's hard to imagine how a world that dealt me my lot and her hers could possibly be just.
posted by praemunire at 11:38 PM on January 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
One of the advantages of a sushi omakase is that the chef can leave a spot or two open for "seconds."
Oh that is spot on. So it is doable, depending on the cost-benefit.
posted by polymodus at 11:48 PM on January 12, 2016
Oh that is spot on. So it is doable, depending on the cost-benefit.
posted by polymodus at 11:48 PM on January 12, 2016
And by the way, your latter paragraph, well said.
posted by polymodus at 11:49 PM on January 12, 2016
posted by polymodus at 11:49 PM on January 12, 2016
I often wish there was like a Sportsfilter for food. A place where people who care about food can go and talk about it, away from all the people who think it's totally dumb and wander into every thread about gastronomy and shit up the comments.
Shit is just food plus time. Wake up, suckers!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 12:01 AM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
Shit is just food plus time. Wake up, suckers!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 12:01 AM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
I've spent a similar amount on equally frivolous things so I can't really judge high priced restaurants.
On the other hand the obsequious service and tipping culture at a subset of expensive restaurants seems to be socially corrosive and immature. When part of the appeal of a restaurant is that the staff will pull out a tiny chair for your handbag and pick up tantrum napkins without complaint I hope the whole place folds.
posted by zymil at 12:09 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
On the other hand the obsequious service and tipping culture at a subset of expensive restaurants seems to be socially corrosive and immature. When part of the appeal of a restaurant is that the staff will pull out a tiny chair for your handbag and pick up tantrum napkins without complaint I hope the whole place folds.
posted by zymil at 12:09 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Mod note: Folks, let's please drop the entire Meta discussion of how we discuss, and let's please cease the derails about elite snobs, etc. For anyone who wants to discuss income inequality or similar, we pretty much have non-stop open threads for that discussion (quickly: 1, 2, 3, currently). There's a lot of interesting context, background, and fun bits of trivia and info here that is getting swamped in boring squabbling, so If you think haute cuisine is silly or not worth discussing for its own sake, please go ahead and find another post topic that is more interesting to you.
posted by taz (staff) at 1:16 AM on January 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 1:16 AM on January 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
I'd much rather plunk down the money for an exceptional meal at a great restaurant than, say, Hamilton tickets (to pick an example from this thread.)
JUSTINIAN NAME YOUR SECONDS
posted by corb at 1:42 AM on January 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
JUSTINIAN NAME YOUR SECONDS
posted by corb at 1:42 AM on January 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
It's the active shitting on this kind of food that is the problem.
Maybe that's how they got that C from the Board of Health.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 4:51 AM on January 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
Maybe that's how they got that C from the Board of Health.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 4:51 AM on January 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
JUSTINIAN NAME YOUR SECONDS
I pick Aaron Burr. I've got a good feeling about that guy.
posted by Justinian at 9:25 AM on January 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
I pick Aaron Burr. I've got a good feeling about that guy.
posted by Justinian at 9:25 AM on January 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
On the other hand the obsequious service and tipping culture at a subset of expensive restaurants seems to be socially corrosive and immature.
This is so... American. The idea that good service is something you have to pay for, and therefore is something that you can cut out for budgetary reasons. As opposed to, say, Japanese culture where kind service is considered integral to your job, if not to your identity as a person.
BTW, it's those expensive restaurants you talk about, and not the cheap 'egalitarian' places, that have done away with tipping. Gratuity is built into the price of the menu.
posted by danny the boy at 9:33 AM on January 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is so... American. The idea that good service is something you have to pay for, and therefore is something that you can cut out for budgetary reasons. As opposed to, say, Japanese culture where kind service is considered integral to your job, if not to your identity as a person.
BTW, it's those expensive restaurants you talk about, and not the cheap 'egalitarian' places, that have done away with tipping. Gratuity is built into the price of the menu.
posted by danny the boy at 9:33 AM on January 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
My husband and I were talking about buying a lottery ticket - just one - this morning because it's the first time it has a positive value, but with the hope that we'd get a million or even ten thousand or so which we could put on the mortgage.
Then we look in the living room. Where we've had no couch for over a year. Our plan was to buy a used one from Craigslist - round here you can get nice ones for 50-150 bucks. But 2-3 times now we've taken our couch money and gone to a restaurant instead, where we laugh about how we're eating our couch and we better enjoy this meal. So right now we have bunch of cushions and pillows on the floor because we love food and would rather have a great meal than sit on a couch. (Which may be a hedonistic, none life-in-moderation thing that's unhealthy, but we don't care.) Nope, we decided, we'd better not get a ticket. Because if we did win, we know what will happen - in a few years you'd have to roll us out the door because we love to eat so much.
Some people get excited about fashion, home decor, or sports, or whatever - our joy just happens to be food. I don't have a fancy palette (wish I did) but that doesn't mean I still can't love food; I love those amazing experiences when a meal is so well put together that I *feel* like I have a great palette. When the atmosphere, service, company, and most of all the food comes together just right, it can be wonderful.
I've had wonderful experiences in greasy spoons. One of the best meals I've ever eaten was rehydrated chili after a 15 mile hike. But when food is in the hands of people who love food too, who love cooking and showing what one can do with food - I can't describe it. There's a scene in the series Chef's Table when Massimo Bottura says, "When I open a cheese like that I get emotional." Although my husband and I laughed at the line, it became shorthand for us about the way food can be which we call emotional cheese. Like being amazed at all the ways you can put chords together and make songs so wildly different that evoke different memories and feelings, it's the same with flavor and texture. To me a huge part of getting to eat other people's food is wild curiosity. What are the cooks going to do? How are they going to do it? What are they going to do with their version of emotional cheese?
So when I see reviews like this or restaurants of any kind, I like to think that we're the audience that they're writing for or cooking for. People who read about a truffle and smack their lips. (I've never had a real truffle, oh I how want to try one.) Diners who come in, maybe just a few times a year or once a decade - or, for me, a New York restaurant like this probably just once in a lifetime - and are there because we love to eat and want to put ourselves in professional hands.
I just wanted to say this because there are a few cooks in this thread - thank you for those magical experiences, your hard work, and your skills. I'd rather sit on the floor for a year than miss out on your food.
posted by barchan at 9:46 AM on January 13, 2016 [28 favorites]
Then we look in the living room. Where we've had no couch for over a year. Our plan was to buy a used one from Craigslist - round here you can get nice ones for 50-150 bucks. But 2-3 times now we've taken our couch money and gone to a restaurant instead, where we laugh about how we're eating our couch and we better enjoy this meal. So right now we have bunch of cushions and pillows on the floor because we love food and would rather have a great meal than sit on a couch. (Which may be a hedonistic, none life-in-moderation thing that's unhealthy, but we don't care.) Nope, we decided, we'd better not get a ticket. Because if we did win, we know what will happen - in a few years you'd have to roll us out the door because we love to eat so much.
Some people get excited about fashion, home decor, or sports, or whatever - our joy just happens to be food. I don't have a fancy palette (wish I did) but that doesn't mean I still can't love food; I love those amazing experiences when a meal is so well put together that I *feel* like I have a great palette. When the atmosphere, service, company, and most of all the food comes together just right, it can be wonderful.
I've had wonderful experiences in greasy spoons. One of the best meals I've ever eaten was rehydrated chili after a 15 mile hike. But when food is in the hands of people who love food too, who love cooking and showing what one can do with food - I can't describe it. There's a scene in the series Chef's Table when Massimo Bottura says, "When I open a cheese like that I get emotional." Although my husband and I laughed at the line, it became shorthand for us about the way food can be which we call emotional cheese. Like being amazed at all the ways you can put chords together and make songs so wildly different that evoke different memories and feelings, it's the same with flavor and texture. To me a huge part of getting to eat other people's food is wild curiosity. What are the cooks going to do? How are they going to do it? What are they going to do with their version of emotional cheese?
So when I see reviews like this or restaurants of any kind, I like to think that we're the audience that they're writing for or cooking for. People who read about a truffle and smack their lips. (I've never had a real truffle, oh I how want to try one.) Diners who come in, maybe just a few times a year or once a decade - or, for me, a New York restaurant like this probably just once in a lifetime - and are there because we love to eat and want to put ourselves in professional hands.
I just wanted to say this because there are a few cooks in this thread - thank you for those magical experiences, your hard work, and your skills. I'd rather sit on the floor for a year than miss out on your food.
posted by barchan at 9:46 AM on January 13, 2016 [28 favorites]
the obsequious service and tipping culture at a subset of expensive restaurants seems to be socially corrosive
Many of these places are going to a service-included model. Keller was one of the first to do so, in fact, though the review notes that there's still a tip line on the bill, which is another fair call out in my view.
My attitude is that we do eat with all our senses. It's not about demanding obsequious servitude, it's about creating the atmosphere of an event in a place like Per Se. It's not the same to be served a Keller oyster on paper plates by someone snapping gum in your ear. Otoh, some of the best breakfasts and coffee in my life have been had that way. The food, the expectation really, is about context and atmosphere.
posted by bonehead at 9:59 AM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Many of these places are going to a service-included model. Keller was one of the first to do so, in fact, though the review notes that there's still a tip line on the bill, which is another fair call out in my view.
My attitude is that we do eat with all our senses. It's not about demanding obsequious servitude, it's about creating the atmosphere of an event in a place like Per Se. It's not the same to be served a Keller oyster on paper plates by someone snapping gum in your ear. Otoh, some of the best breakfasts and coffee in my life have been had that way. The food, the expectation really, is about context and atmosphere.
posted by bonehead at 9:59 AM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
I enjoy reading things like this. I am one of the least interesting eaters in the world—I'm profoundly picky, anxious about eating anything whose ingredients I am not absolutely sure of, and enamored of food anyone with a palate finds revolting. Last night, as a snack, I ate saltines with slices of Kraft American Processed Cheese Product. I found this tasty. I actually have an opinion about whether the cheese product should go on the salted or unsalted side of the cracker (unsalted, so you get a burst of the texture and taste of salt right on your tongue).
But when I read these reviewers talking about the subtle interplay of flavors and textures, the way that cooking methods can enhance or undermine a food's inherent qualities, it opens up a very interesting world for me. I love hearing people talk about their work, and I am an expert in certain things myself, such as the appreciation of good writing. I try not to let myself think, "these people are wasting their time and money on empty pretension," just because they love something that I am absolutely unequipped to appreciate.
A few years ago, we had a housemate who was a professional restaurant cook. He could take a can of Campbell's tomato soup out of the cupboard and turn it into something amazing by doing something in the pan with flour and butter first, and then adding various herbs and stuff. We used to love to watch him cook, and the kids still miss him and his food. They'll sit down to a plain old can of soup, and say, "Remember A? Remember that time he made that chicken? Those pancakes? That soup?"
One of my kids is an especially adventurous eater. I think he was 8 when we were having dinner at a restaurant in Philadelphia's Chinatown, and he was intrigued by the live crabs in a tank in the dining room. He ordered one, and when this plate-sized crab that had been alive just a few minutes before arrived at the table, he ate the heck out of it.
I've been able to connect him, now almost 12, with a friend of mine who is a foodie and an enthusiastic cook. Last summer, the two of us visited, and he enjoyed hanging out in the kitchen with my friend. He got to collect fresh herbs from the pots on the terrace, and learned to chiffonade. He helped walk the dog, which often led to unexpected stops in coffeeshops and cafes in their neighborhood to try things he'd never had before. (The same friend and his lover also introduced my kid to live musical theater. Gay uncles FTW.)
My point is that people love what they love. When people love something you don't, you can treat that as an opportunity to learn about something new. The same friend who taught my kid to chiffonade has taught me that I have been wrong all these years that I thought I didn't like wine—I just hadn't had the right wine (a beer-loving girlfriend taught me the same thing about beer a year or so earlier). I'm never going to be someone who enjoys one of these epic tasting menus, but I kind of love the idea of them, and I enjoy hearing people who know and care about food talk about why they succeed or fail.
I'm sure there are pretentious people who go to a restaurant like this because it is hard to get into and incredibly expensive, and they can say, "Oh, I wish I could, but we have reservations at Per Se that night," and "Last week, we were at Per Se and..." But there are people who go because they love food, they appreciate the creative work of talented chefs, and even because they appreciate the art that good service can be. These people are worth listening to.
posted by not that girl at 10:21 AM on January 13, 2016 [14 favorites]
But when I read these reviewers talking about the subtle interplay of flavors and textures, the way that cooking methods can enhance or undermine a food's inherent qualities, it opens up a very interesting world for me. I love hearing people talk about their work, and I am an expert in certain things myself, such as the appreciation of good writing. I try not to let myself think, "these people are wasting their time and money on empty pretension," just because they love something that I am absolutely unequipped to appreciate.
A few years ago, we had a housemate who was a professional restaurant cook. He could take a can of Campbell's tomato soup out of the cupboard and turn it into something amazing by doing something in the pan with flour and butter first, and then adding various herbs and stuff. We used to love to watch him cook, and the kids still miss him and his food. They'll sit down to a plain old can of soup, and say, "Remember A? Remember that time he made that chicken? Those pancakes? That soup?"
One of my kids is an especially adventurous eater. I think he was 8 when we were having dinner at a restaurant in Philadelphia's Chinatown, and he was intrigued by the live crabs in a tank in the dining room. He ordered one, and when this plate-sized crab that had been alive just a few minutes before arrived at the table, he ate the heck out of it.
I've been able to connect him, now almost 12, with a friend of mine who is a foodie and an enthusiastic cook. Last summer, the two of us visited, and he enjoyed hanging out in the kitchen with my friend. He got to collect fresh herbs from the pots on the terrace, and learned to chiffonade. He helped walk the dog, which often led to unexpected stops in coffeeshops and cafes in their neighborhood to try things he'd never had before. (The same friend and his lover also introduced my kid to live musical theater. Gay uncles FTW.)
My point is that people love what they love. When people love something you don't, you can treat that as an opportunity to learn about something new. The same friend who taught my kid to chiffonade has taught me that I have been wrong all these years that I thought I didn't like wine—I just hadn't had the right wine (a beer-loving girlfriend taught me the same thing about beer a year or so earlier). I'm never going to be someone who enjoys one of these epic tasting menus, but I kind of love the idea of them, and I enjoy hearing people who know and care about food talk about why they succeed or fail.
I'm sure there are pretentious people who go to a restaurant like this because it is hard to get into and incredibly expensive, and they can say, "Oh, I wish I could, but we have reservations at Per Se that night," and "Last week, we were at Per Se and..." But there are people who go because they love food, they appreciate the creative work of talented chefs, and even because they appreciate the art that good service can be. These people are worth listening to.
posted by not that girl at 10:21 AM on January 13, 2016 [14 favorites]
Those who note above that the high price leads to high expectations, so people are more likely to disappointed are on to something. When I knew each meal cost $300+ and then we ordered cocktails to start (because cocktails!) and each was $25, I found myself thinking, "this had better be a really Great cocktail". It was good? But I found myself wondering if it was really $25 good, which is never what I want to be contemplating as I imbibe.
And the $150 corkage fee seemed either insulting or to indicate they were used to people with way too much money -- neither of which made me feel welcome. The food has to be Amazing to overcome those barriers.
So tl;dr: like many of these reviewers, I was primed for disappointment by the high prices (and the many opportunities to spend more).
posted by ldthomps at 10:47 AM on January 13, 2016
And the $150 corkage fee seemed either insulting or to indicate they were used to people with way too much money -- neither of which made me feel welcome. The food has to be Amazing to overcome those barriers.
So tl;dr: like many of these reviewers, I was primed for disappointment by the high prices (and the many opportunities to spend more).
posted by ldthomps at 10:47 AM on January 13, 2016
I feel like this kind of dining must be the same thing. That you have to go full border collie to get to the point where, 10 years in, you’re still on red alert for a dropped napkin. Still sweating every menu change. Obviously restaurant running is a team sport, in this analogy
Diablevert, this is me being super-lowbrow again, but I think you're right. A couple of decades ago, I worked at the drive-thru at a Burger King. One night, for some reason (were we being evaluated? I don't remember) we all decided that we were going to get every car out within something like 30 seconds of ordering. Everybody went into high gear. The cooks put their brains to work to keep enough food in the pipeline to be able to serve it quickly without wasting too much or letting it get cold or stale. I was making change like a super-computer. Always good at the job, I was filling five, six orders at a time. Nobody stood still all night.
For one long, glorious shift, we were the best fast-food crew in the whole world. It was a hell of an accomplishment.
It was also not something you'd want or be able to do every night. It was exhilarating, but also exhausting. By the next night, we were back to being a pretty good fast food crew.
posted by not that girl at 10:50 AM on January 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
Diablevert, this is me being super-lowbrow again, but I think you're right. A couple of decades ago, I worked at the drive-thru at a Burger King. One night, for some reason (were we being evaluated? I don't remember) we all decided that we were going to get every car out within something like 30 seconds of ordering. Everybody went into high gear. The cooks put their brains to work to keep enough food in the pipeline to be able to serve it quickly without wasting too much or letting it get cold or stale. I was making change like a super-computer. Always good at the job, I was filling five, six orders at a time. Nobody stood still all night.
For one long, glorious shift, we were the best fast-food crew in the whole world. It was a hell of an accomplishment.
It was also not something you'd want or be able to do every night. It was exhilarating, but also exhausting. By the next night, we were back to being a pretty good fast food crew.
posted by not that girl at 10:50 AM on January 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
If nothing else, this thread has taught me that saltines have a salty side, and a nonsalty side. Somehow in all my cracker eating--and there has been quite a lot of cracker eating--I have never actually made note of this.
posted by mittens at 10:55 AM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by mittens at 10:55 AM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
The three-ish experiences with food that changed my life, abbreviated version:
2001. First job out of college, working in Soho. For some reason convinced our boss to order lunch for the whole company, and for some other reason ended up getting it from Balthazar. The food was good, but it was the prune clafoutis that I cannot forget. It haunts my dreams. I can still taste it now, a decade and a half later. It's not even that it was some supreme example of it, a platonic ideal of clafoutis, but at that moment it woke up something dormant that had been nurtured by an upbringing of spectacular (but normal to me) food in Asia, and an adolescence in NYC where I was unaware of how good every god damned thing I was eating was. Like, they served us knishes for lunch in public school, which is simultaneously borderline child abuse and like a class in art appreciation. But it was that clafoutis that put everything the foreground. Before then I thought my attitude to food was utilitarian. It took something that sublime in the moment to get me to pay active attention to what I was putting in my mouth.
2006. First visit to French Laundry. A few years prior was ranked the #1 restaurant in the world, but had slipped to #3. I had dined well before but never so thoughtfully. I went with companions that you'd call "foodies" today but before that word had purchase, and then baggage. I was so lucky to find people that were joyous and nervous and just primed to have so much fun. It was all our first time, not just of TFL, but of that level of experience. The whole thing was a ballet. (I found out later that yes, they did hire a choreographer to train the servers.) I knew this existed, but I didn't know. Every detail was important enough to have a story. The herbs they grew in the garden across the street. The three kinds of butter, and what we might taste in them. The synchronized reveal when the servers brought our courses. I thought, this is what it looks like when everything is important enough to notice. That's when I understood that food could be art.
2013. I went to the farmer's market in the Inner Richmond and got dry farmed early girl tomatoes, grown a few hours away, at the insistence of my girlfriend. I've had them before, but something about the weather that year made them almost unrecognizable... she said they tasted like "god's candy, fallen from heaven." It was a dramatic understatement. She ate them like apples. I have never before, or since, tasted anything that transcendent. It made me question why we eat and grow the things we do. It was so good it made me angry at every other tomato I had ever eaten. David Chang famously mocked west coast cuisine as just drizzling olive oil on some figs and sending that out, but when I ate that tomato that was the "I refute it thus" answer of the local/sustainable/ingredient-centric school.
posted by danny the boy at 11:03 AM on January 13, 2016 [17 favorites]
2001. First job out of college, working in Soho. For some reason convinced our boss to order lunch for the whole company, and for some other reason ended up getting it from Balthazar. The food was good, but it was the prune clafoutis that I cannot forget. It haunts my dreams. I can still taste it now, a decade and a half later. It's not even that it was some supreme example of it, a platonic ideal of clafoutis, but at that moment it woke up something dormant that had been nurtured by an upbringing of spectacular (but normal to me) food in Asia, and an adolescence in NYC where I was unaware of how good every god damned thing I was eating was. Like, they served us knishes for lunch in public school, which is simultaneously borderline child abuse and like a class in art appreciation. But it was that clafoutis that put everything the foreground. Before then I thought my attitude to food was utilitarian. It took something that sublime in the moment to get me to pay active attention to what I was putting in my mouth.
2006. First visit to French Laundry. A few years prior was ranked the #1 restaurant in the world, but had slipped to #3. I had dined well before but never so thoughtfully. I went with companions that you'd call "foodies" today but before that word had purchase, and then baggage. I was so lucky to find people that were joyous and nervous and just primed to have so much fun. It was all our first time, not just of TFL, but of that level of experience. The whole thing was a ballet. (I found out later that yes, they did hire a choreographer to train the servers.) I knew this existed, but I didn't know. Every detail was important enough to have a story. The herbs they grew in the garden across the street. The three kinds of butter, and what we might taste in them. The synchronized reveal when the servers brought our courses. I thought, this is what it looks like when everything is important enough to notice. That's when I understood that food could be art.
2013. I went to the farmer's market in the Inner Richmond and got dry farmed early girl tomatoes, grown a few hours away, at the insistence of my girlfriend. I've had them before, but something about the weather that year made them almost unrecognizable... she said they tasted like "god's candy, fallen from heaven." It was a dramatic understatement. She ate them like apples. I have never before, or since, tasted anything that transcendent. It made me question why we eat and grow the things we do. It was so good it made me angry at every other tomato I had ever eaten. David Chang famously mocked west coast cuisine as just drizzling olive oil on some figs and sending that out, but when I ate that tomato that was the "I refute it thus" answer of the local/sustainable/ingredient-centric school.
posted by danny the boy at 11:03 AM on January 13, 2016 [17 favorites]
None of the snarkers are being mean or personal. It's not a moral failing to roll your eyes at the hobbies of others.
Of course they are! They are exactly being mean and personal. And I do think it is a moral failing. This kind of thing is a great opportunity to practice humility, by recognizing that one knows less about something than other people do, and being willing to learn from them. And to practice openness, empathy, and respect, by listening to what they say.
We are trying to build a world, some of us—or at least, we dream of a world—where we can experience the common humanity of people who have a different sexuality, a different experience of gender, a different cultural or religious background. If we can't set aside judgment and disdain over people's different hobbies and specialities, we're doomed on the big stuff.
This can be practiced. "I'm going to be quiet. Please tell me about what makes this food good. Tell me about what makes the cost of this meal worthwhile to you, or not worthwhile. Tell me about what it's like to share a meal like this with friends."
You can work up to, "I'm going to shut up now and listen to you tell me what it means to you to be agender." "Please tell me why you are sometimes angry about being a person of color adopted by white parents." "Please tell me about how you decided to follow, or not follow, a religious practice that is often seen as oppressive to women." But baby steps, baby steps. You can practice right now on this whole Michelin-star prix-fixe four-digit-bill dinner thing.
posted by not that girl at 11:05 AM on January 13, 2016 [16 favorites]
Of course they are! They are exactly being mean and personal. And I do think it is a moral failing. This kind of thing is a great opportunity to practice humility, by recognizing that one knows less about something than other people do, and being willing to learn from them. And to practice openness, empathy, and respect, by listening to what they say.
We are trying to build a world, some of us—or at least, we dream of a world—where we can experience the common humanity of people who have a different sexuality, a different experience of gender, a different cultural or religious background. If we can't set aside judgment and disdain over people's different hobbies and specialities, we're doomed on the big stuff.
This can be practiced. "I'm going to be quiet. Please tell me about what makes this food good. Tell me about what makes the cost of this meal worthwhile to you, or not worthwhile. Tell me about what it's like to share a meal like this with friends."
You can work up to, "I'm going to shut up now and listen to you tell me what it means to you to be agender." "Please tell me why you are sometimes angry about being a person of color adopted by white parents." "Please tell me about how you decided to follow, or not follow, a religious practice that is often seen as oppressive to women." But baby steps, baby steps. You can practice right now on this whole Michelin-star prix-fixe four-digit-bill dinner thing.
posted by not that girl at 11:05 AM on January 13, 2016 [16 favorites]
It's not a moral failing to roll your eyes at the hobbies of others.
Taking the time to make sure that everyone knows you're rolling your eyes, though...
posted by Etrigan at 11:11 AM on January 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
Taking the time to make sure that everyone knows you're rolling your eyes, though...
posted by Etrigan at 11:11 AM on January 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
FFFM as someone who grew up between trailer homes and living in the family car, now graduated to paycheck to paycheck, your insight is invaluable to me. Despite my background, largely through the kindness of dear friends, I have been able to experience truly fine-dining both nationally and internationally.
I know hard work and I know long hours - this is what restaurant work is. I also truly get it when you say food can equal fine art. Thanks for slogging away in the kitchen late at night and in the weeds so I can enjoy a damn fine meal.
You work at a hard at a too often thankless job. Had to say this after the third or fourth time in this thread where I have read one of your comments and thought "preach brother!"
posted by pipoquinha at 11:15 AM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
I know hard work and I know long hours - this is what restaurant work is. I also truly get it when you say food can equal fine art. Thanks for slogging away in the kitchen late at night and in the weeds so I can enjoy a damn fine meal.
You work at a hard at a too often thankless job. Had to say this after the third or fourth time in this thread where I have read one of your comments and thought "preach brother!"
posted by pipoquinha at 11:15 AM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Nope, that's why I implied it's possibly apocryphal. I feel like I've read about it a number of times, though.
I recently wrote a thing about common habits of amateurish writers. A friend of mine told me she hadn't read it; she didn't want to learn to recognize bad writing, for fear that it would undermine her enjoyment of some of the genre fiction she enjoyed reading.
Awhile ago, we were watching the TV show Once Upon a Time as a family, and I had mentioned to my partner that the show had terrible green-screen work. He didn't know what that was. The next time we were watching, I started to point out an example, and he said, "Stop! I don't want to start noticing it!"
I've told this story before, but years ago I went camping with friends on South Manitou Island in Lake Michigan. The camping there is very rustic: no showers or toilets. You have to hike to a central location to pump your water and haul it to your campsite. The first morning, a friend of a friend pulled out a french press (this was so early in the coffee invasion of the US that this was a very unusual item to see—I don't think I recognized it at first), and either some ground coffee or possibly some beans that she'd brought a battery-operated grinder for. I was curious, so as she prepared her coffee, she told me about why she did it that way, and why it was worth it, to her, to haul her coffee-making gear on the kind of camping trip where you carried as light a load as you could because it all had to be schlepped. She explained about grinding beans fresh, and about how the french press extracts the coffee flavor, and about how good coffee has various notes.
I thought she was full of shit, just another New York native coming to dwell among the savages so she could get a Ph.D. in Ann Arbor.
After a couple of days, I left the island, a day or two ahead of the rest of the group. I took the ferry to the mainland, loaded my kayak on the roof of my car, and hit the road. An hour or two into the drive, I drove through a McDonald's or something similar for a cup of coffee. Coffee that I had always thought was just fine.
I tasted it. It was crap. That damn pretentious New Yorker had, by just telling me about good coffee, taught me to recognize bad coffee.
Now, I enjoy coffee both less and more than I did before my eyes were opened. I can appreciate a really good cup of coffee like I couldn't before, but I also know when I'm being forced to drink a bad one. It's a mixed blessing, and I understand the impulse to avoid this kind of knowledge.
posted by not that girl at 11:17 AM on January 13, 2016 [9 favorites]
I recently wrote a thing about common habits of amateurish writers. A friend of mine told me she hadn't read it; she didn't want to learn to recognize bad writing, for fear that it would undermine her enjoyment of some of the genre fiction she enjoyed reading.
Awhile ago, we were watching the TV show Once Upon a Time as a family, and I had mentioned to my partner that the show had terrible green-screen work. He didn't know what that was. The next time we were watching, I started to point out an example, and he said, "Stop! I don't want to start noticing it!"
I've told this story before, but years ago I went camping with friends on South Manitou Island in Lake Michigan. The camping there is very rustic: no showers or toilets. You have to hike to a central location to pump your water and haul it to your campsite. The first morning, a friend of a friend pulled out a french press (this was so early in the coffee invasion of the US that this was a very unusual item to see—I don't think I recognized it at first), and either some ground coffee or possibly some beans that she'd brought a battery-operated grinder for. I was curious, so as she prepared her coffee, she told me about why she did it that way, and why it was worth it, to her, to haul her coffee-making gear on the kind of camping trip where you carried as light a load as you could because it all had to be schlepped. She explained about grinding beans fresh, and about how the french press extracts the coffee flavor, and about how good coffee has various notes.
I thought she was full of shit, just another New York native coming to dwell among the savages so she could get a Ph.D. in Ann Arbor.
After a couple of days, I left the island, a day or two ahead of the rest of the group. I took the ferry to the mainland, loaded my kayak on the roof of my car, and hit the road. An hour or two into the drive, I drove through a McDonald's or something similar for a cup of coffee. Coffee that I had always thought was just fine.
I tasted it. It was crap. That damn pretentious New Yorker had, by just telling me about good coffee, taught me to recognize bad coffee.
Now, I enjoy coffee both less and more than I did before my eyes were opened. I can appreciate a really good cup of coffee like I couldn't before, but I also know when I'm being forced to drink a bad one. It's a mixed blessing, and I understand the impulse to avoid this kind of knowledge.
posted by not that girl at 11:17 AM on January 13, 2016 [9 favorites]
So, I agree that food is art, but unlike other forms of art it's distribution is limited. Visual art, music, writing, theater, and film can be easily copied and distributed. Of course some of the experience is lost if you have a facsimile or recording in your home as opposed to the live performance or viewing, but at least it's available and still retains the core experience at a cheap price for everyone.
But great food on the other hand is harder to transmit as an idea. Sure there are documentaries, reviews, and photographs but it's not really the same. There is no real equivalent to a "public art museum" or "concert in the park" for food. Schools have art history and music appreciation courses, but no equivalent for food.
For me, it's how I'm explaining the differences in this thread. It's more difficult to argue what something is worth if not everyone has experienced it. Pretty much all of us know what a Picasso is (or can go the library or Google it for a good idea of what it is), and have been taught why it's valuable. And because of this we can compare it to a Banksy, have an idea on both and come up with which one we like more. But not everyone's eaten at Per Se, so how do you compare it to a food truck taco or a burger from In-N-Out?
posted by FJT at 11:26 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
But great food on the other hand is harder to transmit as an idea. Sure there are documentaries, reviews, and photographs but it's not really the same. There is no real equivalent to a "public art museum" or "concert in the park" for food. Schools have art history and music appreciation courses, but no equivalent for food.
For me, it's how I'm explaining the differences in this thread. It's more difficult to argue what something is worth if not everyone has experienced it. Pretty much all of us know what a Picasso is (or can go the library or Google it for a good idea of what it is), and have been taught why it's valuable. And because of this we can compare it to a Banksy, have an idea on both and come up with which one we like more. But not everyone's eaten at Per Se, so how do you compare it to a food truck taco or a burger from In-N-Out?
posted by FJT at 11:26 AM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
FJT, Jamie Oliver is basically the answer to your question. His whole deal is that he wants to democratize food and make it accessible to people who are otherwise eating crap. His work with the UK school system, and elsewhere is a reaction to the issues you're bringing up. Cooking, and even eating, isn't something that you're born knowing how to do. His career has been spent making what are basically food appreciation classes, for kids and adults. You're right, a tiny fraction of people on the planet will ever be able to eat at a Michelin starred restaurant. But I don't think the art exists only in those places. Not by a longshot.
I also think there IS actually something inherently accessible about food. Like the guy who spent a year making and eating all the recipes in the Alinea cookbook*, which would have cost a small fortune otherwise. The artistry is in the invention, not the construction. (When you eat at a place like Per Se, there should be NO creativity in kitchen--it should be a robotic assembly line.) There's skill needed to be a home cook, but the prerequisite is to be able to follow instructions, not to have some innate artistic ability.
*As seen in Spinning Plates, on Netflix. Worth watching.
posted by danny the boy at 12:37 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
I also think there IS actually something inherently accessible about food. Like the guy who spent a year making and eating all the recipes in the Alinea cookbook*, which would have cost a small fortune otherwise. The artistry is in the invention, not the construction. (When you eat at a place like Per Se, there should be NO creativity in kitchen--it should be a robotic assembly line.) There's skill needed to be a home cook, but the prerequisite is to be able to follow instructions, not to have some innate artistic ability.
*As seen in Spinning Plates, on Netflix. Worth watching.
posted by danny the boy at 12:37 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
The food equivalent to a "concert in the park" is a local restaurant week or food festival. Sure, you aren't going to experience Noma or Alinea, but if you live in a decent metropolitan area there's bound to be some place operating at a high level and a lot more places putting out decent product.
Also there are food appreciation courses in universities, they're just kinda new and maybe not available everywhere.
posted by Small Dollar at 12:51 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Also there are food appreciation courses in universities, they're just kinda new and maybe not available everywhere.
posted by Small Dollar at 12:51 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
I worship food; I mean that: I. worship. food.
And for me, restaurants like Per Se are the rough equivalent of the Golden Calf.
posted by jamjam at 3:55 PM on January 13, 2016
And for me, restaurants like Per Se are the rough equivalent of the Golden Calf.
posted by jamjam at 3:55 PM on January 13, 2016
Wait like it's a false idol to your real worship? Or just generally something that you value a lot?
posted by Carillon at 4:03 PM on January 13, 2016
posted by Carillon at 4:03 PM on January 13, 2016
Some time ago, I visited a therapy garden where veterans could go for PTSD. The therapist talked about being present in the now, as an important element both of healing and management of chronic symptoms.
While I have always loved good food, a lot of my adult, intellectual appreciation of fine dining has to do with being present. If you are not present, it is impossible to enjoy this type of meal.
As a teacher, I often use cooking as a model for creative work: if you want to be succesful, you need to have original ideas - or to inspire memories and longing - or both. You need to be able to plan ahead, and control economy and management. You need discipline, order and time-management. And you need to be able to improvise, if something unexpected happens. Because there are no second chances with meals, in the restaurant or even at home. You can order in if your meal fails at home, of course, but the money and effort you've invested in a failed meal are lost if you are not able to act quickly within the constraints you are given. And for your guests (or family or just you) to enjoy that meal, they need to sit there at the table and be there.
When you go to one of those world-class restaurants, all of that is there, in an enhanced or exaggerated manner. And for me, what is most enhanced is the demand on my presence. When every course is bite-sized, I need to really focus on it, to enjoy the mouth-feel, the visual presentation and the smell as well as the taste. I need to discuss what it is and how it is made with my friends, because the whole challenges me (well, if things are good of course) and interests me. We might talk about how the elements can inspire our daily life, even as they are impossible to replicate for lay-people. Such a meal takes hours and hours, and I remember every detail for ever after. Including the happiness of sharing the experience with like-minded friends or family.
In the short story, Babettes Feast, Isac Dinesen/Karen Blixen describes the classical French meal - which is also wonderful: here the food is the magical facilitator and backdrop for happiness. Food seduces the simple-minded puritans into pleasure. If you go to a classical type (but excellent) restaurant, or you cook that type of food for friends, at home, you don't talk as much about the food as about life and each other and happiness. It doesn't have to be French - just any cuisine with a strong tradition and high quality - I remember a lovely dumpling brunch as a high point in recent family dining.
The other day, my daughters and I had a lot of stuff to do together and it was a really nice day, and suddenly we all found a craving for hot-dogs. And we drove to the closest really good hot-dog stand and had a great time eating those dogs and bantering with the hot-dog guy and just loving the rich combination of condiments and fat and flour in a sausage case. For me, eating a hot-dog carelessly on the road is always something I regret - I need to watch my weight and cholesterol and hot-dogs have an after-taste which can remind me of bad food for hours. But when going to the place together, and having fun and being present became a part of the experience, it was another moment of happiness with food.
I've been at amazing restaurants invited by people who were mainly there to be able to brag about it afterwards. As a general pattern, they didn't enjoy it much. In my very limited experience, this type of people prefer another sort of dining: there are very expensive restaurants where the main reason for the price level is to keep out ordinary people, while the food is very banal. A lot of rich people go there, because they really don't want to hang out with the rest of us, but they do like banal food. I've eaten at those as well a few times, and they are how fine dining gets a bad reputation.
BTW, the main reason I've been this sort of places so relatively often is taxes and accounting. I've had several jobs where they couldn't or wouldn't give me a proper pay, but they would invite me to dinner at a fancy restaurant, because that was tax-deductible and on a different account from wages. So I have had many dinners that cost more than my monthly food budget. When I was free-lancing, I even did that myself once: three of us had to share a really small payment, and if we just split the money and payed the taxes, we'd end up with like 20 dollars pr person. But if we went out to eat at the then finest restaurant, we could use every last penny and deduct everything as work-expenses. I resented that the tax-system was that way, but I acknowledge that it did good things for the restaurant business (it's much more restricted here now).
posted by mumimor at 4:03 PM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
While I have always loved good food, a lot of my adult, intellectual appreciation of fine dining has to do with being present. If you are not present, it is impossible to enjoy this type of meal.
As a teacher, I often use cooking as a model for creative work: if you want to be succesful, you need to have original ideas - or to inspire memories and longing - or both. You need to be able to plan ahead, and control economy and management. You need discipline, order and time-management. And you need to be able to improvise, if something unexpected happens. Because there are no second chances with meals, in the restaurant or even at home. You can order in if your meal fails at home, of course, but the money and effort you've invested in a failed meal are lost if you are not able to act quickly within the constraints you are given. And for your guests (or family or just you) to enjoy that meal, they need to sit there at the table and be there.
When you go to one of those world-class restaurants, all of that is there, in an enhanced or exaggerated manner. And for me, what is most enhanced is the demand on my presence. When every course is bite-sized, I need to really focus on it, to enjoy the mouth-feel, the visual presentation and the smell as well as the taste. I need to discuss what it is and how it is made with my friends, because the whole challenges me (well, if things are good of course) and interests me. We might talk about how the elements can inspire our daily life, even as they are impossible to replicate for lay-people. Such a meal takes hours and hours, and I remember every detail for ever after. Including the happiness of sharing the experience with like-minded friends or family.
In the short story, Babettes Feast, Isac Dinesen/Karen Blixen describes the classical French meal - which is also wonderful: here the food is the magical facilitator and backdrop for happiness. Food seduces the simple-minded puritans into pleasure. If you go to a classical type (but excellent) restaurant, or you cook that type of food for friends, at home, you don't talk as much about the food as about life and each other and happiness. It doesn't have to be French - just any cuisine with a strong tradition and high quality - I remember a lovely dumpling brunch as a high point in recent family dining.
The other day, my daughters and I had a lot of stuff to do together and it was a really nice day, and suddenly we all found a craving for hot-dogs. And we drove to the closest really good hot-dog stand and had a great time eating those dogs and bantering with the hot-dog guy and just loving the rich combination of condiments and fat and flour in a sausage case. For me, eating a hot-dog carelessly on the road is always something I regret - I need to watch my weight and cholesterol and hot-dogs have an after-taste which can remind me of bad food for hours. But when going to the place together, and having fun and being present became a part of the experience, it was another moment of happiness with food.
I've been at amazing restaurants invited by people who were mainly there to be able to brag about it afterwards. As a general pattern, they didn't enjoy it much. In my very limited experience, this type of people prefer another sort of dining: there are very expensive restaurants where the main reason for the price level is to keep out ordinary people, while the food is very banal. A lot of rich people go there, because they really don't want to hang out with the rest of us, but they do like banal food. I've eaten at those as well a few times, and they are how fine dining gets a bad reputation.
BTW, the main reason I've been this sort of places so relatively often is taxes and accounting. I've had several jobs where they couldn't or wouldn't give me a proper pay, but they would invite me to dinner at a fancy restaurant, because that was tax-deductible and on a different account from wages. So I have had many dinners that cost more than my monthly food budget. When I was free-lancing, I even did that myself once: three of us had to share a really small payment, and if we just split the money and payed the taxes, we'd end up with like 20 dollars pr person. But if we went out to eat at the then finest restaurant, we could use every last penny and deduct everything as work-expenses. I resented that the tax-system was that way, but I acknowledge that it did good things for the restaurant business (it's much more restricted here now).
posted by mumimor at 4:03 PM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
just any cuisine with a strong tradition and high quality
Are there cuisines without a strong tradition or high quality?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 4:11 PM on January 13, 2016
Are there cuisines without a strong tradition or high quality?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 4:11 PM on January 13, 2016
I just looked at an Applebees menu and they seem to be making things from many different cuisines: Southern BBQ/Comfort food, Steakhouse, Texmex...all cuisines with strong traditions and high quality, whether applebees is delivering a high quality version of those cuisines or not.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 4:18 PM on January 13, 2016
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 4:18 PM on January 13, 2016
Certified contempt of server, handed down from generation to generation, served with a generous sneer at customer expectations.
Given that they are paying their waitstaff as little as $16 an hour (in Manhattan) to wait on you hand and foot for three hours, such that they are lucky to get $50 (and no tip) out your $3000 meal, you can pick up your own damn napkin.
The only ones being treated with contempt are the waitstaff -- by the management, who has the gall to stick on a 20% gratuity and keep it all for themselves and by customers who think they deserve to be treated like royalty for $16 an hour. House cleaners working on your bathrooms a paid better than that.
Benefits for the privileged always come on the backs of the poor.
posted by JackFlash at 4:18 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Given that they are paying their waitstaff as little as $16 an hour (in Manhattan) to wait on you hand and foot for three hours, such that they are lucky to get $50 (and no tip) out your $3000 meal, you can pick up your own damn napkin.
The only ones being treated with contempt are the waitstaff -- by the management, who has the gall to stick on a 20% gratuity and keep it all for themselves and by customers who think they deserve to be treated like royalty for $16 an hour. House cleaners working on your bathrooms a paid better than that.
Benefits for the privileged always come on the backs of the poor.
posted by JackFlash at 4:18 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Are there cuisines without a strong tradition or high quality?
Well, you might not call them a cuisine then, but in spite of the recent popularity of Scandinavian cuisine, I would say our food habits until recently were horrible. And though there are some great exceptions, most Portuguese food I've had in the old days was terrible (before the Spanish food revolution which has changed a lot of things all over Europe).
posted by mumimor at 4:19 PM on January 13, 2016
Well, you might not call them a cuisine then, but in spite of the recent popularity of Scandinavian cuisine, I would say our food habits until recently were horrible. And though there are some great exceptions, most Portuguese food I've had in the old days was terrible (before the Spanish food revolution which has changed a lot of things all over Europe).
posted by mumimor at 4:19 PM on January 13, 2016
I guess I'm thinking people have always cooked and people have always liked eating delicious things. It seems so improbably to me that people in Scandanavia went thousands of years and just never developed yummy recipes. Surely Swedish people living abroad think "Man, I really wish you could get delicious ________, like my mom used to make, around here." I've sadly never been to portugal, but around here portuguese food popular and delicious. Most especially portuguese chicken. Man, I love me some portuguese chicken. Dreadnought and jb somehow lived in Toronto most of their lives never having eaten portuguese chicken (I can only assume because they are savages) and were over at my house a while back telling me how they finally tried this new thing and it was so good. Is portuguese chicken the portuguese equivaent of chinese chicken balls? I think that doesn't actually exist in portugual? I guess it's possible, but I hear they're really good with fish, too. I wouldn't know. I always get the chicken.
I almost wish I hadn't had late lunch sushi so I could go out right now and get some Portuguese chicken.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 4:25 PM on January 13, 2016
I almost wish I hadn't had late lunch sushi so I could go out right now and get some Portuguese chicken.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 4:25 PM on January 13, 2016
Are there cuisines without a strong tradition or high quality?
A lot of indigenous cuisine that I've experienced is pretty basic. There might be special recipes here and there, but in my experience it's generally starch+starch+starch and hopefully a bit of meat or vegetable.
Irish cuisine is high quality, beyond a doubt, but I never noticed a strong tradition. As in, the fresh seafood and beef are fantastic, but the preparation is usually pretty basic. Boil it, stew it, corn it, or put it in a pie.
Local Hawaiian cuisine has a very strong tradition that reflects the ethnic diversity here, but is generally very low quality. Two scoops of cheap rice, a scoop of macaroni salad, and a cheap cut of meat. It's the preparation of the meat (meat jun, kal-bi, teriyaki, katsu, smoked, grilled with lemon grass, with or without gravy, etc) that gives it variety.
posted by kanewai at 5:23 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
A lot of indigenous cuisine that I've experienced is pretty basic. There might be special recipes here and there, but in my experience it's generally starch+starch+starch and hopefully a bit of meat or vegetable.
Irish cuisine is high quality, beyond a doubt, but I never noticed a strong tradition. As in, the fresh seafood and beef are fantastic, but the preparation is usually pretty basic. Boil it, stew it, corn it, or put it in a pie.
Local Hawaiian cuisine has a very strong tradition that reflects the ethnic diversity here, but is generally very low quality. Two scoops of cheap rice, a scoop of macaroni salad, and a cheap cut of meat. It's the preparation of the meat (meat jun, kal-bi, teriyaki, katsu, smoked, grilled with lemon grass, with or without gravy, etc) that gives it variety.
posted by kanewai at 5:23 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
My question then would be, why not be empathetic about why other people aren't open to this instead of labeling it a moral failing (and describing your own ability to avoid this moral failing)?
Maybe because people who aren't open to this stuff had ample opportunity to acknowledge that the thread isn't for them and just, like, go somewhere else?
Elon James White's Rule #1: You could always just say nothing.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:36 PM on January 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
Maybe because people who aren't open to this stuff had ample opportunity to acknowledge that the thread isn't for them and just, like, go somewhere else?
Elon James White's Rule #1: You could always just say nothing.
posted by tobascodagama at 5:36 PM on January 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
I guess I would think of boil it, boil it, stew it, put it in a pie as a tradition. Traditions don't have to be complicated. I also don't think "cheap" means low quality. Basically this sounds like "Things that have never been considered high brow" not a lack of tradition or quality.
I mean think of many foods that are or have been all the rage -- quinoa comes to mind because it's one I know about. My family is from the Andes and my parents never tried quinoa until I made it for them in Canada. I mentioned that I thought it was strange because supposedly it's an Andean staple and they said "Yes, but that was what poor people ate." So did the quality of quinoa go up when hippies and foodies discovered it? Same for things like organ meats which I believe have at some times been cheaper than meat-meat cuts and at other times more expensive. Did the quality change?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:25 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
I mean think of many foods that are or have been all the rage -- quinoa comes to mind because it's one I know about. My family is from the Andes and my parents never tried quinoa until I made it for them in Canada. I mentioned that I thought it was strange because supposedly it's an Andean staple and they said "Yes, but that was what poor people ate." So did the quality of quinoa go up when hippies and foodies discovered it? Same for things like organ meats which I believe have at some times been cheaper than meat-meat cuts and at other times more expensive. Did the quality change?
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 6:25 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think it's reasonable that if you're eating a 3000 dollar meal, you would expect the staff to be paid well. This may not be the case, but there's no way of knowing where gratuities go to.
posted by corb at 7:32 PM on January 13, 2016
posted by corb at 7:32 PM on January 13, 2016
So did the quality of quinoa go up when hippies and foodies discovered it? Same for things like organ meats which I believe have at some times been cheaper than meat-meat cuts and at other times more expensive. Did the quality change?
Depends on the preparation. There are poor cuisines which have incredible variety and a rich tradition (New Orleans), and there are rich cuisines which are boring as fuck (19th Century America). There are also poor cuisines which are boring as fuck (Ireland), and rich cuisines which are exquisite (Mughal Empire). Organ meats and other cheap cuts generally require a higher level of skill to make them come out well. It also depends a lot on what spices you have access too, what the climate is like, what other cultural influences there are. Big trade centers tend to have interesting food because of the cultures colliding there. You live someplace where it's dark and cold as fuck nine months out of the year and you somehow come to think salted whitefish soaked in lye sounds like fun times.
I don't think it's entirely true that every cuisine has a rich tradition. My own rule of thumb tends to be counties with good beer have shit food, countries with good wine have awesome food. Because good beer means cold enough to grow a lot of wheat and barley much of the year, good wine means temperate enough to grow grapes and many other kinds of fruit and veg much of the year. It's not that it's impossible to make tasty things in cold-weather places. It's just that you have less overall variety, less access to fresh ingredients and spices. Plain simple food can be very tasty when prepared well. But when you're marching into month five of turnips, spuds and bacon for dinner maybe you meet your mates down the pub for a pint rather than inviting them over for eats.
posted by Diablevert at 8:03 PM on January 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
Depends on the preparation. There are poor cuisines which have incredible variety and a rich tradition (New Orleans), and there are rich cuisines which are boring as fuck (19th Century America). There are also poor cuisines which are boring as fuck (Ireland), and rich cuisines which are exquisite (Mughal Empire). Organ meats and other cheap cuts generally require a higher level of skill to make them come out well. It also depends a lot on what spices you have access too, what the climate is like, what other cultural influences there are. Big trade centers tend to have interesting food because of the cultures colliding there. You live someplace where it's dark and cold as fuck nine months out of the year and you somehow come to think salted whitefish soaked in lye sounds like fun times.
I don't think it's entirely true that every cuisine has a rich tradition. My own rule of thumb tends to be counties with good beer have shit food, countries with good wine have awesome food. Because good beer means cold enough to grow a lot of wheat and barley much of the year, good wine means temperate enough to grow grapes and many other kinds of fruit and veg much of the year. It's not that it's impossible to make tasty things in cold-weather places. It's just that you have less overall variety, less access to fresh ingredients and spices. Plain simple food can be very tasty when prepared well. But when you're marching into month five of turnips, spuds and bacon for dinner maybe you meet your mates down the pub for a pint rather than inviting them over for eats.
posted by Diablevert at 8:03 PM on January 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
I think it's reasonable that if you're eating a 3000 dollar meal, you would expect the staff to be paid well. This may not be the case, but there's no way of knowing where gratuities go to.
Actually we do know in this case because the New York Attorney General cited the management for illegally retaining the 20% gratuity for themselves.
posted by JackFlash at 8:16 PM on January 13, 2016
Actually we do know in this case because the New York Attorney General cited the management for illegally retaining the 20% gratuity for themselves.
posted by JackFlash at 8:16 PM on January 13, 2016
My question then would be, why not be empathetic about why other people aren't open to this instead of labeling it a moral failing (and describing your own ability to avoid this moral failing)? It strikes me that empathy must go both ways, must it not?
Respect what I do before demanding empathy for ill-informed shitting on what I do.
Given that they are paying their waitstaff as little as $16 an hour (in Manhattan) to wait on you hand and foot for three hours, such that they are lucky to get $50 (and no tip) out your $3000 meal, you can pick up your own damn napkin.
There are servers at Per Se who break $100K/year (and, again, this is in a restaurant that includes service on the bill)., so no.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:38 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Respect what I do before demanding empathy for ill-informed shitting on what I do.
Given that they are paying their waitstaff as little as $16 an hour (in Manhattan) to wait on you hand and foot for three hours, such that they are lucky to get $50 (and no tip) out your $3000 meal, you can pick up your own damn napkin.
There are servers at Per Se who break $100K/year (and, again, this is in a restaurant that includes service on the bill)., so no.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:38 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
(and yes there was some shit about the included service. $500K is ~back of envelope~ less than 25% of total revenues for a year for Per Se, so no way were they withholding everything. Point being... servers post-2006 were making three figures so no, these aren't the terrible downtrodden poor people serving there. They make way, way the fuck more than I do.)
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:07 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:07 PM on January 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
The legal statement from the Attorney General says that waitstaff was paid from $16 to $28 per hour. They say that the none of the mandatory 20% gratuity went to employees. The management kept all of it. Some waitstaff may have received optional tips, but it isn't clear how much that would be for a restaurant that advertised itself as non-tipping.
posted by JackFlash at 11:26 PM on January 13, 2016
posted by JackFlash at 11:26 PM on January 13, 2016
I'm telling you what is actually known within the industry from actual servers.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:32 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:32 PM on January 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
And I'm telling you what was written in a legal document signed by both the Attorney General and the CFO of Per Se.
posted by JackFlash at 11:50 PM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by JackFlash at 11:50 PM on January 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
Okay, whatever.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:02 AM on January 14, 2016
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:02 AM on January 14, 2016
mumimor: "If you are not present, it is impossible to enjoy this type of meal. "And this is why being asked whether you want to pay $170 extra for swapping a dish in the middle of a prix fixe menu is such a mistake. It takes the diner away from the present and puts their thoughts on their bank balance instead of the pleasant expectations of what's next.
If you must do cost-additional extras then have people choose them at the outset of the meal.
posted by brokkr at 2:49 AM on January 14, 2016 [5 favorites]
The food equivalent to a "concert in the park" is a local restaurant week or food festival.
I know this is pretty far down the thread (which is largely about NYC) but can I just link to Chicagoist's guide to the best/worst restaurant week deals this year? This person actually did the work of going through every normal menu and restaurant week deal to the best of their capacity to see how things shake out, and unsurprisingly, there are some good deals (Topolobampo) and some bad deals (Smoke Daddy).
posted by andrewesque at 5:01 AM on January 14, 2016
I know this is pretty far down the thread (which is largely about NYC) but can I just link to Chicagoist's guide to the best/worst restaurant week deals this year? This person actually did the work of going through every normal menu and restaurant week deal to the best of their capacity to see how things shake out, and unsurprisingly, there are some good deals (Topolobampo) and some bad deals (Smoke Daddy).
posted by andrewesque at 5:01 AM on January 14, 2016
There is so much good BBQ in Chicago at extremely reasonable prices that anything you get from Smoke Daddy is going to be a bad deal.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 5:47 AM on January 14, 2016
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 5:47 AM on January 14, 2016
If you must do cost-additional extras then have people choose them at the outset of the meal.
That's exactly what's done..? You choose at the beginning of your meal which courses you'd like. Or did you mean, when the reservation is made? That would be impractical, considering menus change frequently and bookings happen months in advance.
But I don't disagree, and I appreciate tastings where it's all taken care of beforehand, including the bill (the ticket model). Though even with that, you're usually deciding whether or not to do a wine pairing at the table. But honestly there are only ever like 4 items that are regularly supplementals: foie, truffle, caviar, and wagyu. I think you you only have to try those things once to know if you want to ever get them again. My personal value charting dictates: always to foie, sometimes to truffle, and never to caviar and wagyu.
posted by danny the boy at 10:08 AM on January 14, 2016
That's exactly what's done..? You choose at the beginning of your meal which courses you'd like. Or did you mean, when the reservation is made? That would be impractical, considering menus change frequently and bookings happen months in advance.
But I don't disagree, and I appreciate tastings where it's all taken care of beforehand, including the bill (the ticket model). Though even with that, you're usually deciding whether or not to do a wine pairing at the table. But honestly there are only ever like 4 items that are regularly supplementals: foie, truffle, caviar, and wagyu. I think you you only have to try those things once to know if you want to ever get them again. My personal value charting dictates: always to foie, sometimes to truffle, and never to caviar and wagyu.
posted by danny the boy at 10:08 AM on January 14, 2016
I've been reading this thread with interest,as I was firmly in the 'very expensive food is conspicuous consumption' camp, and I appreciate the perspective from those who feel these kinds of meals should be treated as art. However, I can't shake the idea that this kind of price tag means it can't be anything but elitist.
The entry point for other forms of art is much more democratic. I can buy a great book for £10, a great album or performance for about the same. If I want to experience a great perfume, I can purchase a small sample for a few dollars online, or head to Les Sentries where they will happily make one up for me. A great film can be yours for the cost of a DVD - indeed, I'm still haunted by the final scenes of Nebraska, which I saw on a plane with crackly headphones. (As soon as I find a proper screening, I'm going.) If you live in a major city, there are great paintings, costumes and sculpture all there for you for the price of admission - I'm writing this on a bus going past the National Gallery, and I pass St Paul's on the way to work. Want to see an opera or a ballet? In my city, if you work at it, you can get tickets for £20, or you can see it streamed live into a cinema.
When the entry point to tasting menus and so on is so high, however, that cuts out a whole swathe of people from experiencing it at all. A colleague of mine went to The Fat Duck for a special birthday, and while it's an expensive ticket (and a long wait to get yourself a booking) it sounded like a really fun experience. In practice, though, it's £150 spent on having your tea. That's well beyond the reach of many. And while there are meals I had years ago that I can still taste now (a brasserie in Paris, aged 20; steak done rare, the first time I realised beef could be tender and springy rather than overcooked in gravy, the sensation of popping a peppercorn between my teeth while the American ladies next to us waved away my friend's cigarette smoke) it can be hard to justify something that is by its very nature ephemeral.
posted by mippy at 11:49 AM on January 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
The entry point for other forms of art is much more democratic. I can buy a great book for £10, a great album or performance for about the same. If I want to experience a great perfume, I can purchase a small sample for a few dollars online, or head to Les Sentries where they will happily make one up for me. A great film can be yours for the cost of a DVD - indeed, I'm still haunted by the final scenes of Nebraska, which I saw on a plane with crackly headphones. (As soon as I find a proper screening, I'm going.) If you live in a major city, there are great paintings, costumes and sculpture all there for you for the price of admission - I'm writing this on a bus going past the National Gallery, and I pass St Paul's on the way to work. Want to see an opera or a ballet? In my city, if you work at it, you can get tickets for £20, or you can see it streamed live into a cinema.
When the entry point to tasting menus and so on is so high, however, that cuts out a whole swathe of people from experiencing it at all. A colleague of mine went to The Fat Duck for a special birthday, and while it's an expensive ticket (and a long wait to get yourself a booking) it sounded like a really fun experience. In practice, though, it's £150 spent on having your tea. That's well beyond the reach of many. And while there are meals I had years ago that I can still taste now (a brasserie in Paris, aged 20; steak done rare, the first time I realised beef could be tender and springy rather than overcooked in gravy, the sensation of popping a peppercorn between my teeth while the American ladies next to us waved away my friend's cigarette smoke) it can be hard to justify something that is by its very nature ephemeral.
posted by mippy at 11:49 AM on January 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
it can be hard to justify something that is by its very nature ephemeral
Hard for some people, not hard for others.
posted by neroli at 11:52 AM on January 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
Hard for some people, not hard for others.
posted by neroli at 11:52 AM on January 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
When the entry point to tasting menus and so on is so high, however, that cuts out a whole swathe of people from experiencing it at all.
Absolutely, though I think part of what is exciting about being really into food is that while a lot less easily found, the affordable version really does exist. As mentioned earlier in this thread, Mr. Pollo was a $15 three course when they first started. One of my favorite new restaurants of the last 5 years is a place that started out serving a 3 course for $59, with a stellar pairing for $29. The Mission Chinese empire started out as Mission Street Food, a food truck where a bunch of line cooks from SF's best restaurants would sling out $5 plates.
Of course, all of those folks raised their prices as their reputations grew, but the fun I think is in discovering new talent and new value. There's always someone coming up who wants you to try their food.
posted by danny the boy at 12:14 PM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
Absolutely, though I think part of what is exciting about being really into food is that while a lot less easily found, the affordable version really does exist. As mentioned earlier in this thread, Mr. Pollo was a $15 three course when they first started. One of my favorite new restaurants of the last 5 years is a place that started out serving a 3 course for $59, with a stellar pairing for $29. The Mission Chinese empire started out as Mission Street Food, a food truck where a bunch of line cooks from SF's best restaurants would sling out $5 plates.
Of course, all of those folks raised their prices as their reputations grew, but the fun I think is in discovering new talent and new value. There's always someone coming up who wants you to try their food.
posted by danny the boy at 12:14 PM on January 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
it can be hard to justify something that is by its very nature ephemeral
Hard for some people, not hard for others.
I'm pretty sure there's a pretty good body of research behind the idea that spending money on ephemeral experiences creates more lasting pleasure than spending the same amount of physical stuff. Though Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs definitely comes into play here as well. Like most hobbies, fine dining falls squarely into the Self-Actualization category.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:46 PM on January 14, 2016
Hard for some people, not hard for others.
I'm pretty sure there's a pretty good body of research behind the idea that spending money on ephemeral experiences creates more lasting pleasure than spending the same amount of physical stuff. Though Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs definitely comes into play here as well. Like most hobbies, fine dining falls squarely into the Self-Actualization category.
posted by tobascodagama at 12:46 PM on January 14, 2016
Absolutely, but if you would have to save for a year to do something like this, I can totally see why someone would put that money on something that lasts day after day.
Cosmetics kind of show this. They are ephemeral - you can wash them off at the end of the day, they get used up or go rancid, and you can buy a perfectly usable lipstick for £3 rather than £30. However, they are something you use daily, something that can make you feel a bit fancy on rainy days. And the attitudes on MeFi that come out during cosmetics discussion - why do you use that, girls? It's so vain, and probably poisonous, and I prefer women who look natural - is strikingly similar to the discussion here. Although 1000usd will get you VIB Rouge at Sephora, not just a dinner.
posted by mippy at 12:56 PM on January 14, 2016 [5 favorites]
Cosmetics kind of show this. They are ephemeral - you can wash them off at the end of the day, they get used up or go rancid, and you can buy a perfectly usable lipstick for £3 rather than £30. However, they are something you use daily, something that can make you feel a bit fancy on rainy days. And the attitudes on MeFi that come out during cosmetics discussion - why do you use that, girls? It's so vain, and probably poisonous, and I prefer women who look natural - is strikingly similar to the discussion here. Although 1000usd will get you VIB Rouge at Sephora, not just a dinner.
posted by mippy at 12:56 PM on January 14, 2016 [5 favorites]
And full disclosure: I've eaten at a few Michelin-starred places, and I've sampled others at events like Taste London, but honestly I'd probably choose a bento box from Taro, or a haggis supper with salt'n'sauce from near where my boyfriend's family live.
posted by mippy at 12:58 PM on January 14, 2016
posted by mippy at 12:58 PM on January 14, 2016
The entry point for other forms of art is much more democratic.
Yes, but some of that is because someone somewhere determined that this was significant art that should be out in the public. Opera companies and museums are usually funded by either rich private donors or some sort of endowment or grant. When I was writing my comment on there's no food equivalent of "concert in the parks", and Small Dollar mentioned the food festival. And that's true, festivals and restaurant weeks and other things have begun shifting the public conscious that a lot more people should be able to enjoy good food. Now, I don't know how far this shift will go. It will be interesting if someone ever takes it to the conclusion that fine food is just like fine art and opens up a restaurant that's pricing and funding model is more like a public museum than a business. And maybe that's not too far fetched, since a few centuries ago a lot of the world's fine art was mostly owned and seen by private collectors and royalty.
posted by FJT at 1:04 PM on January 14, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yes, but some of that is because someone somewhere determined that this was significant art that should be out in the public. Opera companies and museums are usually funded by either rich private donors or some sort of endowment or grant. When I was writing my comment on there's no food equivalent of "concert in the parks", and Small Dollar mentioned the food festival. And that's true, festivals and restaurant weeks and other things have begun shifting the public conscious that a lot more people should be able to enjoy good food. Now, I don't know how far this shift will go. It will be interesting if someone ever takes it to the conclusion that fine food is just like fine art and opens up a restaurant that's pricing and funding model is more like a public museum than a business. And maybe that's not too far fetched, since a few centuries ago a lot of the world's fine art was mostly owned and seen by private collectors and royalty.
posted by FJT at 1:04 PM on January 14, 2016 [4 favorites]
If some wealthy patron of the food arts wants to subsidize Michelin-starred restaurants so I can actually afford to eat at one, I'd be all for that.
posted by tobascodagama at 2:47 PM on January 14, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 2:47 PM on January 14, 2016 [5 favorites]
it can be hard to justify something that is by its very nature ephemeral.
Like the big-name concerts that routinely sell out arenas?
That's what this kind of dining is, not just spending a hundred and fifty quid on your tea.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:32 PM on January 14, 2016 [7 favorites]
Like the big-name concerts that routinely sell out arenas?
That's what this kind of dining is, not just spending a hundred and fifty quid on your tea.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:32 PM on January 14, 2016 [7 favorites]
danny the boy: "That's exactly what's done..? You choose at the beginning of your meal which courses you'd like."Okay, fair enough. From the reviews and the comments here I got the impression that you were being asked to make the choices during the meal.
posted by brokkr at 2:00 AM on January 15, 2016
I don't tend to go to arena gigs given the bands I like, but if I couldn't afford it, I can get a live DVD, which is frankly the same as seeing someone at Wembley these days.
Also, the atmosphere at arenas is pretty shit imho. I saw Blur at Hyde Park and my ears are still ringing from the prick who decided to spend the whole gig whistling right next to my ear. It's the musical equivalent of a mass-catered meal.
posted by mippy at 12:47 PM on January 15, 2016
Also, the atmosphere at arenas is pretty shit imho. I saw Blur at Hyde Park and my ears are still ringing from the prick who decided to spend the whole gig whistling right next to my ear. It's the musical equivalent of a mass-catered meal.
posted by mippy at 12:47 PM on January 15, 2016
Was this posted already? - Jay Rayner hating on the posh people at restaurants
posted by mumimor at 12:47 PM on January 15, 2016
posted by mumimor at 12:47 PM on January 15, 2016
A post script on the review by the Public Editor of the Times.
posted by elf27 at 9:52 AM on January 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by elf27 at 9:52 AM on January 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
That's a good response, admitting that they fell short without discussing any details or getting into a back and forth dispute, and ending by promising to do better.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:11 AM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Dip Flash at 5:11 AM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]
Interesting that the note closes with a photo of Keller and his CdC. I'm frankly astonished that the guy still has a job.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:29 PM on January 31, 2016
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:29 PM on January 31, 2016
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