Brownian notion
January 17, 2016 6:49 PM Subscribe
Is this why caramelized onions at some restaurants are brown and mushy but not at all flavorful? Or is there some other shortcut they are taking to get a visually satisfying result that isn't worth eating?
posted by Dip Flash at 7:19 PM on January 17, 2016
posted by Dip Flash at 7:19 PM on January 17, 2016
The Food Lab Has a great article on this which includes a great recipe for french onion dip. Interestingly Kenji links to another article from Khymos from 4 years earlier which basically talks about the same thing, here.
I've done caramelized onions traditionally, slow cooker, and with the added baking soda and they're all seriously amazing.
Here is another article I read a long time ago about why cookbooks lie about caramelization times here. Because why not make this all about onions?
posted by Neronomius at 7:20 PM on January 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
I've done caramelized onions traditionally, slow cooker, and with the added baking soda and they're all seriously amazing.
Here is another article I read a long time ago about why cookbooks lie about caramelization times here. Because why not make this all about onions?
posted by Neronomius at 7:20 PM on January 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
I love this historical bit:
posted by artistic verisimilitude at 7:27 PM on January 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
"The Bavarian pretzel is an extreme example of how the Maillard reaction can be tweaked, and it seems it was a serendipitous discovery. On February 11, 1839, the German baker Anton Nepomuk Pfannenbrenner unintentionally used the lye (sodium hydroxide, or caustic soda) intended for the cleaning of his baking sheets instead of sugar water to glaze his pretzels. The customers, who were used to sweeter pretzels, liked the new taste, and to this day, Bavarian pretzels and even the ubiquitous pretzel sticks are sprayed with (or immersed in) a 1 to 3 percent solution of sodium hydroxide before baking. The high pH speeds up a bottleneck in the Maillard reaction and the result is a delicious savory snack with a shiny brown finish."I always wondered how such a food-inappropriate chemical as lye was ever used in pretzel-making to begin with. Lye is not pleasant to work with, since its pH is high enough to blind you if you're careless and not taking safety measures (and what baker wears safety glasses?). Harold McGee explained how to make food-grade soda ash from baking soda [NYT link] to use as a substitute for lye, but I never saw anything before now on who ever started using lye to begin with.
posted by artistic verisimilitude at 7:27 PM on January 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
Not to be confused with the Millard reaction, which involves training a markov chain with a corpus based on an absurdly oversized donut.
posted by idiopath at 7:30 PM on January 17, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by idiopath at 7:30 PM on January 17, 2016 [8 favorites]
I always wondered how such a food-inappropriate chemical as lye was ever used in pretzel-making to begin with.
The Pfannenbrenner ("pan-burner", a name that is non-existent apart from Anton Nepomuk) story is apocryphal. Unlike the history of the characteristic pretzel shape [pdf, German], which is pretty well understood, the origin of the use of lye is much less certain. There are several stories attributing the invention to various bakers, usually involving an accident, but none of them can be reliably historically documented.
posted by jedicus at 7:37 PM on January 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
The Pfannenbrenner ("pan-burner", a name that is non-existent apart from Anton Nepomuk) story is apocryphal. Unlike the history of the characteristic pretzel shape [pdf, German], which is pretty well understood, the origin of the use of lye is much less certain. There are several stories attributing the invention to various bakers, usually involving an accident, but none of them can be reliably historically documented.
posted by jedicus at 7:37 PM on January 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
The Pfannenbrenner ("pan-burner", a name that is non-existent apart from Anton Nepomuk) story is apocryphal.
are you saying it could be a lye
posted by lalochezia at 7:47 PM on January 17, 2016 [67 favorites]
Oh, drat. Thank you, jedicus.
posted by artistic verisimilitude at 7:50 PM on January 17, 2016
posted by artistic verisimilitude at 7:50 PM on January 17, 2016
I always wondered how such a food-inappropriate chemical as lye was ever used in pretzel-making to begin with.
In China, from what I've read, they gathered alkali-heavy water from specific natural springs. There it's called Kansui, (I buy this kind!) and is used in the same fashion as the alkali salts. These were really weak alkali mixtures, but they eventually ended up concentrating the alkali salts (sometimes to the level of boiling away all the water and leaving you with alkali salts).
Once you start down the alkali rabbit hole, its really helpful to get yourself a little ph test kit for the kitchen. And then you can sort of calibrate your off the shelf "weak lye" water or your baked-soda, to make all sorts of stuff like the aforementioned onions, or ramen noodles, or even pretzels. I find the liquid a bit easier to dose out for certain applications. I personally find it much easier to handle, isn't nearly as caustic as straight lye, and provides much the same results.
This is super cool about the browning action though; I've not thought of this before but am really interested in experimenting with other applications.
posted by furnace.heart at 7:51 PM on January 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
In China, from what I've read, they gathered alkali-heavy water from specific natural springs. There it's called Kansui, (I buy this kind!) and is used in the same fashion as the alkali salts. These were really weak alkali mixtures, but they eventually ended up concentrating the alkali salts (sometimes to the level of boiling away all the water and leaving you with alkali salts).
Once you start down the alkali rabbit hole, its really helpful to get yourself a little ph test kit for the kitchen. And then you can sort of calibrate your off the shelf "weak lye" water or your baked-soda, to make all sorts of stuff like the aforementioned onions, or ramen noodles, or even pretzels. I find the liquid a bit easier to dose out for certain applications. I personally find it much easier to handle, isn't nearly as caustic as straight lye, and provides much the same results.
This is super cool about the browning action though; I've not thought of this before but am really interested in experimenting with other applications.
posted by furnace.heart at 7:51 PM on January 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
idiopath: "Not to be confused with the Millard reaction, which involves training a markov chain with a corpus based on an absurdly oversized donut.
Also not to be confused by the Milland reaction, which results in a lifetime of classic roles being overshadowed by cheesy B-grade and TV bit parts.
posted by Pinback at 7:51 PM on January 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
Also not to be confused by the Milland reaction, which results in a lifetime of classic roles being overshadowed by cheesy B-grade and TV bit parts.
posted by Pinback at 7:51 PM on January 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
Is this why caramelized onions at some restaurants are brown and mushy but not at all flavorful?
Sometimes, sometimes not. I think it's mainly because they all eventually turn to mush the longer they sit. Canned/bagged caramelized onions are also a thing and they're squid snot or weirdly preserved glassy chunks with tooth like they were pickled.
Based on recent work experience, I think it's also because there's a lot of people who don't like crunchy/flavorful onions at all, so a lot of people who want caramelized onions at all want them thoroughly de-onioned and turned into sugary mush, because that's the only way they want onions near a sandwich at all.
But then people who like onions gripe about them being too mushy as well, but apparently less so then the people who want them mushy because they're not oniony like onions.
My favorite caramelized onion experience is making French onion soup for about 15-20 from stock and scratch. At a large and very stoner dinner party. Something like 15 pounds of onions, few pounds of real butter, few pounds of beef bones, fresh herbs and real cheese and bread, most of it from Pike Place. I don't do this kind of thing often but I wanted to do it right, because it's simple enough.
On smaller scales. It took something like 7-8 torturous, delicious-smelling hours. I totally overshot on the time it would take to do it on that kind of a scale. So much "Is it done yet?."
posted by loquacious at 7:56 PM on January 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
Sometimes, sometimes not. I think it's mainly because they all eventually turn to mush the longer they sit. Canned/bagged caramelized onions are also a thing and they're squid snot or weirdly preserved glassy chunks with tooth like they were pickled.
Based on recent work experience, I think it's also because there's a lot of people who don't like crunchy/flavorful onions at all, so a lot of people who want caramelized onions at all want them thoroughly de-onioned and turned into sugary mush, because that's the only way they want onions near a sandwich at all.
But then people who like onions gripe about them being too mushy as well, but apparently less so then the people who want them mushy because they're not oniony like onions.
My favorite caramelized onion experience is making French onion soup for about 15-20 from stock and scratch. At a large and very stoner dinner party. Something like 15 pounds of onions, few pounds of real butter, few pounds of beef bones, fresh herbs and real cheese and bread, most of it from Pike Place. I don't do this kind of thing often but I wanted to do it right, because it's simple enough.
On smaller scales. It took something like 7-8 torturous, delicious-smelling hours. I totally overshot on the time it would take to do it on that kind of a scale. So much "Is it done yet?."
posted by loquacious at 7:56 PM on January 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
BRB, off to learn to make caramels and toffee...
posted by MonkeyToes at 8:08 PM on January 17, 2016
posted by MonkeyToes at 8:08 PM on January 17, 2016
Kansui is also the key element in making Ramen noodles. Another instance of alkaline solutions in cooking!
posted by kiltedtaco at 8:15 PM on January 17, 2016
posted by kiltedtaco at 8:15 PM on January 17, 2016
-> Greg NogWow, that response video was SO full of smarm. I was about to call it quits in two minutes because I couldn't take it. At first I was impressed there was no time lapse in that video but I have never regretted anything more. I am typing this in real time and this guy is SUCH an asshole, especially when he's mimicking the original writer's writing and calling him Skippey and stuff. Plus he burns his onions.
posted by Neronomius at 8:20 PM on January 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Neronomius at 8:20 PM on January 17, 2016 [7 favorites]
Ooooh.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:21 PM on January 17, 2016
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:21 PM on January 17, 2016
I always wondered how such a food-inappropriate chemical as lye was ever used in pretzel-making to begin with.
Bagels are also properly made with lye. Other baked goods from that part of the world as well. Additionally, fresh olives are processed with lye so they won't be too astringent to eat. And corn is treated with lye to become hominy, and then grits. I bet there are other culinary uses for lye out there as well (not even considering its use in industrial food production. NaOH: not just a drain cleaner!
posted by TedW at 8:24 PM on January 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
Bagels are also properly made with lye. Other baked goods from that part of the world as well. Additionally, fresh olives are processed with lye so they won't be too astringent to eat. And corn is treated with lye to become hominy, and then grits. I bet there are other culinary uses for lye out there as well (not even considering its use in industrial food production. NaOH: not just a drain cleaner!
posted by TedW at 8:24 PM on January 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
Don't forget Lutefisk!
posted by Navelgazer at 8:41 PM on January 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Navelgazer at 8:41 PM on January 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
are you saying it could be a lye
basically
posted by flabdablet at 8:45 PM on January 17, 2016 [17 favorites]
basically
posted by flabdablet at 8:45 PM on January 17, 2016 [17 favorites]
Don't forget Lutefisk!
DUDE WE HAD AND YOU SCREWED IT UP!
posted by eriko at 9:12 PM on January 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
DUDE WE HAD AND YOU SCREWED IT UP!
posted by eriko at 9:12 PM on January 17, 2016 [6 favorites]
are you saying it could be a lye
Sure, it may have been a lye, but what really matters is: acid not also resulted in a quality pun?
posted by Hairy Lobster at 9:45 PM on January 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Sure, it may have been a lye, but what really matters is: acid not also resulted in a quality pun?
posted by Hairy Lobster at 9:45 PM on January 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Sure, it may have been a lye, but what really matters is: acid not also resulted in a quality pun?
What an utterly baseless assertion. Frankly you've soured my opinion of you.
posted by juv3nal at 10:11 PM on January 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
What an utterly baseless assertion. Frankly you've soured my opinion of you.
posted by juv3nal at 10:11 PM on January 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Oooh! I asked a question about this once (I love burnt cheese). Looking forward to reading this tomorrow, thanks for posting!
posted by triggerfinger at 10:17 PM on January 17, 2016
posted by triggerfinger at 10:17 PM on January 17, 2016
Plus he burns his onions
The long version was forbidden for me, so I watched the short version. What he's actually browning (caramelizing) is the rather great amount of sugar he adds at the beginning - as if onions weren't sweet enough. Doing the whole thing under a lid and adding water constantly will ensure that his onions are a mushy mess, too.
I have an even better, quicker method for him: Just throw in some brown food coloring (which is basically caramel), and whoppee, brown onions in 30 seconds!
(Although I use his technique - minus the lid, and red wine instead of water, added some carrots, celery root, etc. - when making an intense and very dark basic sauce for certain recipes - this cooks for 2-3 hours anyway, though)
posted by ojemine at 1:18 AM on January 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
The long version was forbidden for me, so I watched the short version. What he's actually browning (caramelizing) is the rather great amount of sugar he adds at the beginning - as if onions weren't sweet enough. Doing the whole thing under a lid and adding water constantly will ensure that his onions are a mushy mess, too.
I have an even better, quicker method for him: Just throw in some brown food coloring (which is basically caramel), and whoppee, brown onions in 30 seconds!
(Although I use his technique - minus the lid, and red wine instead of water, added some carrots, celery root, etc. - when making an intense and very dark basic sauce for certain recipes - this cooks for 2-3 hours anyway, though)
posted by ojemine at 1:18 AM on January 18, 2016 [3 favorites]
I also thought the response video unnecessarily crossed the snark-smarm border. But to be fair the point was made.
I suspect though that for the average home cook a happy medium can be found. Maybe 20 minutes on a medium flame?
The point about pan selection is well made and is a glaring flaw in the original article.
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:29 AM on January 18, 2016
I suspect though that for the average home cook a happy medium can be found. Maybe 20 minutes on a medium flame?
The point about pan selection is well made and is a glaring flaw in the original article.
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:29 AM on January 18, 2016
Not to be confused with the Millard reaction, which involves training a markov chain with a corpus based on an absurdly oversized donut.
Also not to be confused by the Milland reaction, which results in a lifetime of classic roles being overshadowed by cheesy B-grade and TV bit parts.
Also not to be confused by the Mallard reaction, which quack quack quack quack quack.
posted by NedKoppel at 6:42 AM on January 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
Also not to be confused by the Milland reaction, which results in a lifetime of classic roles being overshadowed by cheesy B-grade and TV bit parts.
Also not to be confused by the Mallard reaction, which quack quack quack quack quack.
posted by NedKoppel at 6:42 AM on January 18, 2016 [4 favorites]
TIL I learned that lye, of all things, is behind the awful taste covering pretzel sticks, and why they were always left untouched on the table at the birthday parties of my childhood. Seriously, if it's used for making soap, for heaven's sake don't cook with it (cf. lutefisk).
I guess the same Maillard-enhancing effect of baking soda is related to the softening/mushing effect it has on beans? Which btw has greatly improved my chilies; the water around here is hard, so beans would remain stubbornly tough without soda.
Very interesting article in every way, thanks for posting.
posted by sively at 7:27 AM on January 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
I guess the same Maillard-enhancing effect of baking soda is related to the softening/mushing effect it has on beans? Which btw has greatly improved my chilies; the water around here is hard, so beans would remain stubbornly tough without soda.
Very interesting article in every way, thanks for posting.
posted by sively at 7:27 AM on January 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Harold McGee explained how to make food-grade soda ash from baking soda [NYT link] to use as a substitute for lye,
Yeah, well. I was in the hot pretzel business, so I have obvious biases, but I don't think anything but a hot bath of sodium hydroxide does the trick.
posted by mikelieman at 11:11 AM on January 18, 2016
Yeah, well. I was in the hot pretzel business, so I have obvious biases, but I don't think anything but a hot bath of sodium hydroxide does the trick.
posted by mikelieman at 11:11 AM on January 18, 2016
Let me tell you the real, true*, unvarnished** story of Lutefisk. See, the Scandahoovians, they know herring. They do all sorts of amazing things with herring. Seriously, not joking here, try some of them. Really honestly good stuff.
But they did far more than that. They dried herring, because every culture everywhere figures out how to dry meat at some point***. But one day, an amazing discovery was made. If you first soaked the herring in a lye solution, then hung it on the racks to dry, it became a rock hard slab that was basically impervious to rot.
And the Scandahoovians, being very smart, clever people****, know exactly what to do with this miracle. Which is why, to this day, the word for shingle in Scandahoovian is "lutefisk."
Then, one day, Gengis Hitler himself comes to town, and announces that he's figured out a way to *rehydrate the shingles.*
Scandahoovia, and and all of the Earth, has never truly recovered.
* Honest, I swear, the real actual truth†
** Surprisingly true. No varnish is used in the making of lutefisk.
*** There's a reason you haven't heard of a culture that hasn't. BECAUSE THEY DIED.
**** Ikea. Volvo. Aquavit. Seriously, they're smart. And good looking! Well, except for eating shingles. Oh, and that other thing. We won't talk about the other thing, but it involves herring too. What, you thought lutefisk was the worst thing that could happen to a herring? Hardly.
† For certain values of true.
posted by eriko at 3:17 PM on January 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
But they did far more than that. They dried herring, because every culture everywhere figures out how to dry meat at some point***. But one day, an amazing discovery was made. If you first soaked the herring in a lye solution, then hung it on the racks to dry, it became a rock hard slab that was basically impervious to rot.
And the Scandahoovians, being very smart, clever people****, know exactly what to do with this miracle. Which is why, to this day, the word for shingle in Scandahoovian is "lutefisk."
Then, one day, Gengis Hitler himself comes to town, and announces that he's figured out a way to *rehydrate the shingles.*
Scandahoovia, and and all of the Earth, has never truly recovered.
* Honest, I swear, the real actual truth†
** Surprisingly true. No varnish is used in the making of lutefisk.
*** There's a reason you haven't heard of a culture that hasn't. BECAUSE THEY DIED.
**** Ikea. Volvo. Aquavit. Seriously, they're smart. And good looking! Well, except for eating shingles. Oh, and that other thing. We won't talk about the other thing, but it involves herring too. What, you thought lutefisk was the worst thing that could happen to a herring? Hardly.
† For certain values of true.
posted by eriko at 3:17 PM on January 18, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yes, more of this sort of thing, I love seeing the chemical explanations for old cooks' tips and tricks. It's amazing how much of an effect a tiny pinch of bicarb has, and it feels so clever taking the edge off a too-sharp tomato sauce with a fizzing swirl of powder. Keeping just enough water around to avoid slowing the reaction down is something I hadn't thought of before, but it makes sense.
What on Earth is the guy in that onion response video doing when he reads the original article though? It's like he read a google translated description of "mocking voice" and tried to ape it.
posted by lucidium at 5:33 PM on January 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
What on Earth is the guy in that onion response video doing when he reads the original article though? It's like he read a google translated description of "mocking voice" and tried to ape it.
posted by lucidium at 5:33 PM on January 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well I just tried this baking soda trick, and Boy howdy, don't overdo it with the baking soda! When the guy writes, "a pinch," believe him. I probably added a teaspoon of baking soda to half a red onion. Nothing happened for the first five seconds, and then my skillet became a burbling morass, not quite volcanic, but definitely Vulcan. The onions were done in about a minute and I quickly added the other ingredients to the braise to slow the reaction.
Still braising. Smells delicious. Worried that I pushed them too far. I'll report back with additional findings.
posted by notyou at 7:58 PM on January 18, 2016
Still braising. Smells delicious. Worried that I pushed them too far. I'll report back with additional findings.
posted by notyou at 7:58 PM on January 18, 2016
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For a long time I've used the slow-cooker technique-slash-cheat to make basically perfect caramelized onions, but they always need to be finished in a frying pan to get that rich taste on top of the usual sweetness. I wonder if I could throw in some baking soda to get more flavor out of them.
Incidentally, you can also make fantastic pulled pork super-easily in a slow cooker too, which has me wondering about trying this trick on both of those dishes. Pulled pork sandwiches with caramelized onions, done this way, are low-effort and so good.
posted by mhoye at 7:10 PM on January 17, 2016 [7 favorites]