Flint Water Crisis Runs Deeper and Wider
January 20, 2016 6:07 PM Subscribe
Last month, Flint, Michigan, declared a state of emergency as a result of serious contamination of the municipal water supply. Since then, the issue has expanded from a municipal problem to a scandal reaching the Governor's office and the White House. The situation in Flint took up much of the annual State of the State address this week.
Michigan Governor Rick Snyder's official timeline (2-page PDF) of the crisis stretches back to 2006, when a study said that Flint River water could be used temporarily if properly filtered. Notably absent from the timeline are Bernie Sanders' call for Snyder's resignation and Hillary Clinton's calling out of the crisis as Snyder's fault and a racial issue. The only Republican candidate to speak on the issue so far managed to blame the leadership of Flint (officially nonpartisan, but mostly Democrats, and all secondary to a Snyder-appointed Emergency Manager during the switch) and the federal government, but deftly avoided saying anything about fellow Republican Snyder's state government.
Snyder has released what he says are all of the emails his office received and sent about the crisis.
Michigan Governor Rick Snyder's official timeline (2-page PDF) of the crisis stretches back to 2006, when a study said that Flint River water could be used temporarily if properly filtered. Notably absent from the timeline are Bernie Sanders' call for Snyder's resignation and Hillary Clinton's calling out of the crisis as Snyder's fault and a racial issue. The only Republican candidate to speak on the issue so far managed to blame the leadership of Flint (officially nonpartisan, but mostly Democrats, and all secondary to a Snyder-appointed Emergency Manager during the switch) and the federal government, but deftly avoided saying anything about fellow Republican Snyder's state government.
Snyder has released what he says are all of the emails his office received and sent about the crisis.
That first email is very informative.
posted by jeather at 6:18 PM on January 20, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by jeather at 6:18 PM on January 20, 2016 [10 favorites]
Emergency managers have been the hallmark of the Snyder administration. With this snafu, as well as the Detroit Public School system continuing to fail under emergency management, it shows just how bad the emergency manager law has failed. People have the right to their elected representatives and they shouldn't be swept aside based upon the judgement of administrators. Checks and balances are no longer in effect in this state. We must rely on our governor to "fix it", and that's bullshit.
posted by Roger Dodger at 6:26 PM on January 20, 2016 [24 favorites]
posted by Roger Dodger at 6:26 PM on January 20, 2016 [24 favorites]
So much evil:
Detroit cut Flint off for having the temerity to seek independent water sources after a rate hike.
EPA silenced experts who spoke up.
DEQ falsified lead tests.
The EM overrode Flint's council when they demanded a return to Detroit water.
posted by anotherpanacea at 6:26 PM on January 20, 2016 [19 favorites]
Detroit cut Flint off for having the temerity to seek independent water sources after a rate hike.
EPA silenced experts who spoke up.
DEQ falsified lead tests.
The EM overrode Flint's council when they demanded a return to Detroit water.
posted by anotherpanacea at 6:26 PM on January 20, 2016 [19 favorites]
What I find puzzling is I could swear I heard about this problem with the water in Flint maybe back in 2014, certainly early 2015. Why it has taken so long for it to actually become A Thing is astounding to me. Seems like changes should have been made when it was first reported rather than all these months later.
posted by hippybear at 6:31 PM on January 20, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 6:31 PM on January 20, 2016 [10 favorites]
Here's a nice detailed timeline of things. It includes this:
Also: This is how toxic Flint’s water really is.
posted by Vendar at 6:33 PM on January 20, 2016 [25 favorites]
Many times, spokespersons for Michigan’s Treasury Department, the Governor’s Office, and even Flint’s emergency managers themselves have erroneously claimed this is the point where Detroit “cut Flint off” from the water supply. Yes, Detroit notifies Flint it will give the city one year at the long term contract rate structure, but after that, it would need to negotiate another contract. The other, shorter term options were more expensive than the longer term deal. Detroit, by no means, kicked Flint off its water system, as many state officials have claimed.which I think is useful to keep in mind. An informed-seeming (obvious caveats apply, of course) commenter on that article has some further thoughts specifically on what might have gone on there.
Also: This is how toxic Flint’s water really is.
posted by Vendar at 6:33 PM on January 20, 2016 [25 favorites]
Emergency managers have been the hallmark of the Snyder administration. With this snafu, as well as the Detroit Public School system continuing to fail under emergency management . . .
The Snyder-appointed emergency manager who switched the water supply to the Flint river is now emergency manger of the Detroit schools.
posted by jamjam at 6:35 PM on January 20, 2016 [7 favorites]
The Snyder-appointed emergency manager who switched the water supply to the Flint river is now emergency manger of the Detroit schools.
posted by jamjam at 6:35 PM on January 20, 2016 [7 favorites]
There should be manslaughter charges.The fuckers won't even get a fine.
posted by BlueHorse at 6:39 PM on January 20, 2016 [27 favorites]
posted by BlueHorse at 6:39 PM on January 20, 2016 [27 favorites]
...emergency manager of the Detroit schools. Poisoning minds?
posted by BlueHorse at 6:41 PM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by BlueHorse at 6:41 PM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'd hope that this would put an end to the idiocy of "running government like a business" but I'm sure it won't.
posted by octothorpe at 6:44 PM on January 20, 2016 [44 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 6:44 PM on January 20, 2016 [44 favorites]
There should be manslaughter charges.
Certainly Reckless Endangerment, possibly other things. Manslaughter seems non-applicable for this particular bit of fuckery.
But then, Michigan is also the state where Detroit was turning off household water utility service to its citizens, so they have certainly proven that they basically don't give a fuck about anyone under the median income.
posted by hippybear at 6:45 PM on January 20, 2016 [9 favorites]
Certainly Reckless Endangerment, possibly other things. Manslaughter seems non-applicable for this particular bit of fuckery.
But then, Michigan is also the state where Detroit was turning off household water utility service to its citizens, so they have certainly proven that they basically don't give a fuck about anyone under the median income.
posted by hippybear at 6:45 PM on January 20, 2016 [9 favorites]
Honestly, they should evacuate Flint Michigan.
posted by xammerboy at 6:54 PM on January 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by xammerboy at 6:54 PM on January 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
In the press release of April 25, 2014, Mike Glasgow seems to have given an emphatic 'thumbs up' to the Flint River water. However, the actual water from the Flint River didn't seem to be the source of the toxicity - it was the pipes that ran the 'last mile' to the actual residents.
The takeaway is that testing for toxicity needs to be done at the end-point (the faucet) , not the source (the river). It seems to me that if we, as a species, had learned this takeaway several centuries ago, the black plague would not have happened either. How many more must there be?
posted by Monkey0nCrack at 7:00 PM on January 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
The takeaway is that testing for toxicity needs to be done at the end-point (the faucet) , not the source (the river). It seems to me that if we, as a species, had learned this takeaway several centuries ago, the black plague would not have happened either. How many more must there be?
posted by Monkey0nCrack at 7:00 PM on January 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
The Snyder-appointed emergency manager who switched the water supply to the Flint river is now emergency manger of the Detroit schools.
More on the emergency manager law:
"...they were given the ability to come in, clean up the problems and get out. And so there was an 18-month time limit put on their terms. Except that this governor is exploiting what amounts to a loophole in that law. So what happens is that these emergency managers serve for 17 months and 29 days, and the day before their term expires, they resign. A new emergency manager is put in place, and the clock starts ticking all over again. And they just shuffle them from one place to another. So Earley goes from Flint to run DPS."
posted by MonkeyToes at 7:01 PM on January 20, 2016 [17 favorites]
More on the emergency manager law:
"...they were given the ability to come in, clean up the problems and get out. And so there was an 18-month time limit put on their terms. Except that this governor is exploiting what amounts to a loophole in that law. So what happens is that these emergency managers serve for 17 months and 29 days, and the day before their term expires, they resign. A new emergency manager is put in place, and the clock starts ticking all over again. And they just shuffle them from one place to another. So Earley goes from Flint to run DPS."
posted by MonkeyToes at 7:01 PM on January 20, 2016 [17 favorites]
There should be manslaughter charges.
Why have there been no charges at this point? People have died, correct?
This is the most basic function of government, ensuring goddamn clean water for its citizens and those officials utterly and throughly failed. So why is no on in jail at this point or at least charged?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:01 PM on January 20, 2016 [14 favorites]
Why have there been no charges at this point? People have died, correct?
This is the most basic function of government, ensuring goddamn clean water for its citizens and those officials utterly and throughly failed. So why is no on in jail at this point or at least charged?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:01 PM on January 20, 2016 [14 favorites]
I wish they would just call this what it is, a national tragedy. I've been following this since October and the media coverage been pathetic except for a couple outlets.
There will most likely be a whole generation of poisoned youth with developmental disorders ready to be labeled by some in our society as criminals looking for handouts. The whole situation gives me that helpless anger.
Maybe Xammerboy is right, maybe it is time to depopulate the area of 500,000 people. Just treat it like the Hanford nuclear site.
posted by Muncle at 7:08 PM on January 20, 2016 [6 favorites]
There will most likely be a whole generation of poisoned youth with developmental disorders ready to be labeled by some in our society as criminals looking for handouts. The whole situation gives me that helpless anger.
Maybe Xammerboy is right, maybe it is time to depopulate the area of 500,000 people. Just treat it like the Hanford nuclear site.
posted by Muncle at 7:08 PM on January 20, 2016 [6 favorites]
Honestly, they should evacuate Flint Michigan.
I don't know what else they can do at this point - are they going to replumb the entire city? If this was a city whose water was poisoned by terrorists or the like the US Federal government couldn't throw enough money at it. Poisoned by incompetence? Well too bad.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 7:10 PM on January 20, 2016 [20 favorites]
I don't know what else they can do at this point - are they going to replumb the entire city? If this was a city whose water was poisoned by terrorists or the like the US Federal government couldn't throw enough money at it. Poisoned by incompetence? Well too bad.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 7:10 PM on January 20, 2016 [20 favorites]
Jesse Jackson calls Flint crisis 'a crime scene'
posted by ActingTheGoat at 7:12 PM on January 20, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by ActingTheGoat at 7:12 PM on January 20, 2016 [10 favorites]
The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency’s top Midwest official said her department knew as early as April about the lack of corrosion controls in Flint’s water supply — a situation that likely put residents at risk for lead contamination — but said her hands were tied in bringing the information to the public. that's from the Detroit News Article EPA STAYED SILENT .... WTF? Her hands were tied? Was her tongue tied too? If ever there was a situation that called for ignoring rules and regulations, it seems to me this would have been the time. Unbelievable. And all of it, completely avoidable. Shameful, criminal, inhumane ... The punishment for every single person involved in this debacle should be a jail + bread and Flint Water for eternity.
posted by pjsky at 7:14 PM on January 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by pjsky at 7:14 PM on January 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
Actually, yes. Replumb the entire city. Declare Flint and environs, including the entirety of the Flint river, a superfund site, and get to work.
At the very least, filter the Flint river through Snyder's kidneys, and the kidneys of everyone who voted for him.
posted by JohnFromGR at 7:17 PM on January 20, 2016 [16 favorites]
At the very least, filter the Flint river through Snyder's kidneys, and the kidneys of everyone who voted for him.
posted by JohnFromGR at 7:17 PM on January 20, 2016 [16 favorites]
The city needs to be replumbed. They will never have the money for it. It can be fixed, but no-one can or will pay for it. Republican evil has created a literal wasteland where once a city stood.
You know what's the best of the absolute best? The Water Department run by Rick Snyder's own handpicked Emergency Manager is sending shut-off notices to people who have not been paying theirwater poison bill.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:19 PM on January 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
You know what's the best of the absolute best? The Water Department run by Rick Snyder's own handpicked Emergency Manager is sending shut-off notices to people who have not been paying their
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:19 PM on January 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
Run it like a business, right, Rick?
posted by Thorzdad at 7:21 PM on January 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 7:21 PM on January 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
The Water Department run by Rick Snyder's own handpicked Emergency Manager is sending shut-off notices to people who have not been paying their water poison bill.
Flint has been out of emergency status since last April.
posted by Etrigan at 7:22 PM on January 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
Flint has been out of emergency status since last April.
posted by Etrigan at 7:22 PM on January 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
A CEO who was guilty of this might be going to jail.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:22 PM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:22 PM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
It should also be noted that, in 2012, voters rejected a proposal to expand EM powers in Michigan. Two months later, Gov. Snyder signed into law a modified version of the defeated ballot measure, with $770k in appropriations included, making it shielded from further voter referendums.
posted by miguelcervantes at 7:22 PM on January 20, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by miguelcervantes at 7:22 PM on January 20, 2016 [12 favorites]
Meanwhile, over the winter break, someone broke into Flint city hall, specifically into an unused office that happened to be where some of the water files were being stored. They're not sure if any files were taken but surely this is just a coincidence.
posted by mhum at 7:24 PM on January 20, 2016 [24 favorites]
posted by mhum at 7:24 PM on January 20, 2016 [24 favorites]
There's also been a significant uptick of Legionnaire's disease in Flint, and as one of the Doctors who pushed this story at great risk to her personal and professional reputation pointed out on Democracy Now! yesterday, the increased iron which is leached out of older plumbing along with lead destroys chlorination and is a growth factor for Legionella.
The people responsible for all this should be in the Hague awaiting trial for crimes against humanity.
posted by jamjam at 7:28 PM on January 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
The people responsible for all this should be in the Hague awaiting trial for crimes against humanity.
posted by jamjam at 7:28 PM on January 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
Last year, someone posted a link to the Detroit Water Project. Is there anything similar for Flint?
posted by raihan_ at 7:30 PM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by raihan_ at 7:30 PM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'd hope that this would put an end to the idiocy of "running government like a business" but I'm sure it won't.
Poor people are getting sick, the people in charge aren't getting in trouble, and an emergency cash infusion has just been authorized that will of course be distributed by the Republican state government (which is to say, almost entirely into friendly pockets, I'm sure). If anything, Republicans are probably viewing this as a tremendous success for the concept of "running government like a business".
Please, when you're doing campaign work for the upcoming election, remind people that THIS is Republican governance. Fuck the people at the bottom, skim cash for the people at the top. And then remind whoever you're talking to which end of that system they're on.
posted by IAmUnaware at 7:34 PM on January 20, 2016 [28 favorites]
Poor people are getting sick, the people in charge aren't getting in trouble, and an emergency cash infusion has just been authorized that will of course be distributed by the Republican state government (which is to say, almost entirely into friendly pockets, I'm sure). If anything, Republicans are probably viewing this as a tremendous success for the concept of "running government like a business".
Please, when you're doing campaign work for the upcoming election, remind people that THIS is Republican governance. Fuck the people at the bottom, skim cash for the people at the top. And then remind whoever you're talking to which end of that system they're on.
posted by IAmUnaware at 7:34 PM on January 20, 2016 [28 favorites]
It's like 9ºF here . Nobody's replumbing anything for a few months, at least.
Maybe people could melt snow, if there were any worth mentioning.
posted by tempestuoso at 7:36 PM on January 20, 2016
Maybe people could melt snow, if there were any worth mentioning.
posted by tempestuoso at 7:36 PM on January 20, 2016
Is everyone aware that adding anti-corrosive agents to neutralize the acidic river water was reported to only cost about $140 a day for the Flint water system? A tiny amount of money to stop leeching lead from pipes but no.
People need to go to jail for this!!
posted by Muncle at 7:37 PM on January 20, 2016 [16 favorites]
People need to go to jail for this!!
posted by Muncle at 7:37 PM on January 20, 2016 [16 favorites]
The other, shorter term options were more expensive than the longer term deal. Detroit, by no means, kicked Flint off its water system, as many state officials have claimed.
"I heard you found a new apartment! That's great! You're moving in in two months? Well, I don't want to kick you out early, but I'm raising the rent for those last two months by $10 million. Hey, at least I'm not evicting you!"
posted by anotherpanacea at 7:37 PM on January 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
"I heard you found a new apartment! That's great! You're moving in in two months? Well, I don't want to kick you out early, but I'm raising the rent for those last two months by $10 million. Hey, at least I'm not evicting you!"
posted by anotherpanacea at 7:37 PM on January 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
Monkey0nCrack: "However, the actual water from the Flint River didn't seem to be the source of the toxicity - it was the pipes that ran the 'last mile' to the actual residents.
Yes, the lead was in the pipe solder but it was the corrosiveness of the Flint River water that leached out the lead. Furthermore, this is a common enough occurrence that there exist corrosion control guidelines to deal with it. Evidently, MDEQ did not think they were necessary here.
The takeaway is that testing for toxicity needs to be done at the end-point (the faucet) , not the source (the river)."
This was done. It was done poorly. As far as I know, no one was saying that the lead was coming from the river.
posted by mhum at 7:38 PM on January 20, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yes, the lead was in the pipe solder but it was the corrosiveness of the Flint River water that leached out the lead. Furthermore, this is a common enough occurrence that there exist corrosion control guidelines to deal with it. Evidently, MDEQ did not think they were necessary here.
The takeaway is that testing for toxicity needs to be done at the end-point (the faucet) , not the source (the river)."
This was done. It was done poorly. As far as I know, no one was saying that the lead was coming from the river.
posted by mhum at 7:38 PM on January 20, 2016 [6 favorites]
It's criminal what's happened to my once progressive home state, long having been drug to the bottom by GOP and Tea Party types who have taken over the Michigan legislature. (I'm not even going to go into Detroit's systematic corruption - (cough)Kwame Kilpatrick(cough) - though it has gotten better under current Mayor Mike Duggan)
It's been one train wreck after another. It took years to get band aid legislation passed to begin repairing road and bridge infrastructure (yes, the home of the auto industry has some of the worst, if not the worst, roads in the nation), paying for a road funding bill by essentially punting the payments into the next decade claiming there will be undefined "revenue increases" to cover them. Then we had the ridiculous sex scandal courtesy of a pair of nitwit tea party aligned state reps who were finally expelled after a botched cover up and endless media circus.
Now we have the Flint water clusterfuck, which is ultimately going to cost this state an unfathomable amount of money and effort to fix, let alone the countless lives which have been irreparably harmed. The politicians involved need to go to prison, though I have absolutely no faith at in all in our state attorney general, Bill Schutte (who's aiming to run as the next GOP nominee for governor), to do the right thing. But fucking Synder is praying for Flint, so they go that going for them...
I was once proud to be a Michigander. Now, I'm just ashamed.
posted by bawanaal at 7:39 PM on January 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
It's been one train wreck after another. It took years to get band aid legislation passed to begin repairing road and bridge infrastructure (yes, the home of the auto industry has some of the worst, if not the worst, roads in the nation), paying for a road funding bill by essentially punting the payments into the next decade claiming there will be undefined "revenue increases" to cover them. Then we had the ridiculous sex scandal courtesy of a pair of nitwit tea party aligned state reps who were finally expelled after a botched cover up and endless media circus.
Now we have the Flint water clusterfuck, which is ultimately going to cost this state an unfathomable amount of money and effort to fix, let alone the countless lives which have been irreparably harmed. The politicians involved need to go to prison, though I have absolutely no faith at in all in our state attorney general, Bill Schutte (who's aiming to run as the next GOP nominee for governor), to do the right thing. But fucking Synder is praying for Flint, so they go that going for them...
I was once proud to be a Michigander. Now, I'm just ashamed.
posted by bawanaal at 7:39 PM on January 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
Just waiting for all the Republicans to spin this as totally the EPA's fault, ergo Obama's fault.
If you would like to be outraged even further, read the Washington Post article THIS IS HOW TOXIC FLINT'S WATER REALLY IS from January 15.
posted by pjsky at 7:46 PM on January 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
If you would like to be outraged even further, read the Washington Post article THIS IS HOW TOXIC FLINT'S WATER REALLY IS from January 15.
posted by pjsky at 7:46 PM on January 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
But then, Michigan is also the state where Detroit was turning off household water utility service to its citizens, so they have certainly proven that they basically don't give a fuck about anyone under the median income.
So, on the one hand, I get this; it seems cruel to shut off water service to a household.
On the other hand, what do other cities do when people don't pay their water bills? *Not* shut the service off?
I'm not trying to snark; I honestly wonder.
posted by Juffo-Wup at 7:57 PM on January 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
So, on the one hand, I get this; it seems cruel to shut off water service to a household.
On the other hand, what do other cities do when people don't pay their water bills? *Not* shut the service off?
I'm not trying to snark; I honestly wonder.
posted by Juffo-Wup at 7:57 PM on January 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh, and yes, Bill Schuette is an utter stooge. I wouldn't believe him if he told me that Richard Nixon was guilty of something.
posted by Juffo-Wup at 7:58 PM on January 20, 2016
posted by Juffo-Wup at 7:58 PM on January 20, 2016
This is what the emergency managers are there to do. This is not an accident. This is not a side-effect. This is not a tragedy. This is the Republican Party's working as intended.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:02 PM on January 20, 2016 [26 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:02 PM on January 20, 2016 [26 favorites]
On the other hand, what do other cities do when people don't pay their water bills? *Not* shut the service off?
As far as I know, in Wisconsin, they'll place a lien against your property.
posted by drezdn at 8:05 PM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
On the other hand, what do other cities do when people don't pay their water bills? *Not* shut the service off?
I'd be 100 percent OK with a water board system that didn't charge people that didn't have the ability to pay. Of course that places the onus to pay the difference upon those in higher income brackets and there is the whole questions of how to do that, when to sue/place leins, and where to draw varuous other lines in the sand and all that jazz...
But yea, call me a socialist but I'm seriously OK with folks, myself included, paying more so that the poorest among us, and their kids, can drink and bathe like decent fucking human beings.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:06 PM on January 20, 2016 [60 favorites]
I'd be 100 percent OK with a water board system that didn't charge people that didn't have the ability to pay. Of course that places the onus to pay the difference upon those in higher income brackets and there is the whole questions of how to do that, when to sue/place leins, and where to draw varuous other lines in the sand and all that jazz...
But yea, call me a socialist but I'm seriously OK with folks, myself included, paying more so that the poorest among us, and their kids, can drink and bathe like decent fucking human beings.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:06 PM on January 20, 2016 [60 favorites]
What happens in the municipalities in the Toronto area is that the water bill will get added to the property tax account. If the property tax account is unpaid for too long then the city can do a tax sale of the property, although the cities usually wait years and years before doing that and by that time the owners would either get a mortgage to pay off the taxes or just sell the property themselves.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 8:07 PM on January 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 8:07 PM on January 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is one of those times I wished I believed in hell.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:07 PM on January 20, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:07 PM on January 20, 2016 [15 favorites]
Even though I knew there's the potential for there to be radioactive contamination in area water due to runoff from some areas locally in St. Louis, I always figured if that happened I'd hear about it. So I've kept drinking water from the tap, after running it for 20 seconds, of course, since we live in a 100-year-old building and I always knew there was also the potential for the water to be running through lead pipes. But I'm starting to think that's a bad idea and I should drink Brita water like my husband does. Not that it would save me from something like this, but yeah.
posted by limeonaire at 8:10 PM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by limeonaire at 8:10 PM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is one of those times I wished I believed in hell
No kidding, then I think of how it is all relative and about all the countries that are blasted wastelands due to American ignornace or superiority complexes and I'm kinda glad that hell isn't waiting for most of us after all.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:12 PM on January 20, 2016
No kidding, then I think of how it is all relative and about all the countries that are blasted wastelands due to American ignornace or superiority complexes and I'm kinda glad that hell isn't waiting for most of us after all.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:12 PM on January 20, 2016
This is one of those times I wished I believed in hell.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts
....oh and eponysterical.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:16 PM on January 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts
....oh and eponysterical.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:16 PM on January 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
Snyder doesn't see any connection between the Flint water crisis and the emergency manager law.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:23 PM on January 20, 2016
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:23 PM on January 20, 2016
"Gov. Rick Snyder’s lasting legacy will not be balanced budgets or his efforts to make sure everyone is swimming in a 'river of opportunity.' It will not be 'relentless positive action.' Rather, he will be defined by inaction and another river, the Flint River. He will be known from this time forward as the governor whose team poisoned potentially thousands of children with lead." -- Rochelle Riley, Detroit Free Press
posted by blucevalo at 8:26 PM on January 20, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by blucevalo at 8:26 PM on January 20, 2016 [15 favorites]
Oh, and falling into the trap of thinking "it's all relative" is exactly what good ol' Rick @onetoughnerd wants everyone to do, too.
posted by blucevalo at 8:28 PM on January 20, 2016
posted by blucevalo at 8:28 PM on January 20, 2016
The city needs to be replumbed.
I think I read/heard someone saying that it's possible you could remineralize the insides of the pipes with the right additives in the water. The pipes used to have a nice crust of... mineraly stuff, which was stripped away by the Flint River water. A couple years of remediation and the water might be safe to drink again.
not that that's much comfort to anyone
posted by BungaDunga at 8:30 PM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think I read/heard someone saying that it's possible you could remineralize the insides of the pipes with the right additives in the water. The pipes used to have a nice crust of... mineraly stuff, which was stripped away by the Flint River water. A couple years of remediation and the water might be safe to drink again.
not that that's much comfort to anyone
posted by BungaDunga at 8:30 PM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
When my wife and I discussed it, she said, "I've always thought it wrong before but in China when people get caught doing something like this, something that permanently injures so many people, they are put to death. For the first time, I understand."
And I had to wonder, what would I do if–by action or inaction–a government official lead poisoned my children?
[shudder]
posted by Mike Mongo at 8:33 PM on January 20, 2016 [9 favorites]
And I had to wonder, what would I do if–by action or inaction–a government official lead poisoned my children?
[shudder]
posted by Mike Mongo at 8:33 PM on January 20, 2016 [9 favorites]
From T.D. Strange's link: Snyder's Chief of Staff Dennis Muchmore: "Now we have the anti everything group turning to the lead content which is a concern for everyone, but DEQ and [the health department] and EPA can't find evidence of a major change." Residents are caught in a "swirl of misinformation," he adds.
Yeah, anti-unsafe drinking water is an awful position to hold. What in the ever-living fuck?
This is what libertarianism looks like. These people will openly take American lives by means of public utilities.
Worried about terrorists poisoning the water supply? These are your targets for apprehension and arrest.
Unrelated crisis (in terms of how water quality was affected - bacterial contamination vs. lead) but related based on the ideological agenda at play...
Walkerton, Ontario:
- The government failed to put proper safeguards into place after privatizing the water supply
- The men who ran the town's water supply, Stan and Frank Koebel, lied and cheated to cover their tracks
- A weakened Ministry of Environment failed to detect the problem
- The local health unit didn't issue a wide enough boil-water alert
- The town's water officials didn't respond properly to quality concerns raised by the environment ministry in 1998
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:33 PM on January 20, 2016 [11 favorites]
Yeah, anti-unsafe drinking water is an awful position to hold. What in the ever-living fuck?
This is what libertarianism looks like. These people will openly take American lives by means of public utilities.
Worried about terrorists poisoning the water supply? These are your targets for apprehension and arrest.
Unrelated crisis (in terms of how water quality was affected - bacterial contamination vs. lead) but related based on the ideological agenda at play...
Walkerton, Ontario:
- The government failed to put proper safeguards into place after privatizing the water supply
- The men who ran the town's water supply, Stan and Frank Koebel, lied and cheated to cover their tracks
- A weakened Ministry of Environment failed to detect the problem
- The local health unit didn't issue a wide enough boil-water alert
- The town's water officials didn't respond properly to quality concerns raised by the environment ministry in 1998
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 8:33 PM on January 20, 2016 [11 favorites]
Just waiting for all the Republicans to spin this as totally the EPA's fault, ergo Obama's fault.
On WKAR (Lansing's NPR station) this morning, a Republican representative was arguing against anti Snyder sentiment under the argument that, if we take a "the buck stops here" stand, Obama should also have to resign.
posted by miguelcervantes at 8:33 PM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
On WKAR (Lansing's NPR station) this morning, a Republican representative was arguing against anti Snyder sentiment under the argument that, if we take a "the buck stops here" stand, Obama should also have to resign.
posted by miguelcervantes at 8:33 PM on January 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
As a Michigander, this situation is just sad, tragic, and leaves people like me scratching heads as to what to do.
As a voter who votes Democrat, it makes me all the more frustrated that the party, back in 2010, didn't see past the surface challenges (primarily converting the automotive working class to some other sector or sectors of the economy), to put forth a candidate that could win against the seemingly sane Snyder and maintain the governorship that Granholm left behind - to prevent emergency managers from even happening, to prevent the Flint crisis, to prevent other Republican crafted disasters.
But Dillon was already sold to the Republicans (became State Treasurer), Virg Bernero was fairly weak and couldn't carry policy minded voters and organizations (at least that's my impression), and the rest is a blur to me. I know there was frustration among Democrats from a combination of a lack of economic growth and failure to move people to pursue a variety of different careers outside the blue collar jobs of the past.
But for that to stand in front of principle in finding a solid opponent for Snyder and his fairly non-democratic values is a crying shame.
I just wanted to get this off my chest. I'm pissed, and outside of this, have few words.
posted by JoeXIII007 at 8:44 PM on January 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
As a voter who votes Democrat, it makes me all the more frustrated that the party, back in 2010, didn't see past the surface challenges (primarily converting the automotive working class to some other sector or sectors of the economy), to put forth a candidate that could win against the seemingly sane Snyder and maintain the governorship that Granholm left behind - to prevent emergency managers from even happening, to prevent the Flint crisis, to prevent other Republican crafted disasters.
But Dillon was already sold to the Republicans (became State Treasurer), Virg Bernero was fairly weak and couldn't carry policy minded voters and organizations (at least that's my impression), and the rest is a blur to me. I know there was frustration among Democrats from a combination of a lack of economic growth and failure to move people to pursue a variety of different careers outside the blue collar jobs of the past.
But for that to stand in front of principle in finding a solid opponent for Snyder and his fairly non-democratic values is a crying shame.
I just wanted to get this off my chest. I'm pissed, and outside of this, have few words.
posted by JoeXIII007 at 8:44 PM on January 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
As a fan of the state of Michigan, I'm extremely bummed about this. Watching Snyder fuck the whole place over the last few years has been depressing, even at a remove. I am interested to hear what the US Attorney's investigation turns up. Heads should fucking roll. Particularly Rick's.
posted by Existential Dread at 8:53 PM on January 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Existential Dread at 8:53 PM on January 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is the kind of administrative failure where people need to go to jail, and others fired.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:55 PM on January 20, 2016
posted by Dip Flash at 8:55 PM on January 20, 2016
It sounds to me like Michigan needs an emergency manager, since Snyder is clearly such a tremendous failure.
I'm sure he couldn't possibly mind.
posted by louche mustachio at 9:13 PM on January 20, 2016 [14 favorites]
I'm sure he couldn't possibly mind.
posted by louche mustachio at 9:13 PM on January 20, 2016 [14 favorites]
Meanwhile, Chris Christie vetoes funding for NJ's lead abatement program, left dry after years of raiding the fund to pay for budget shortfalls.
posted by dirigibleman at 9:21 PM on January 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by dirigibleman at 9:21 PM on January 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
Jesus, if I lived there with kids I'd probably do something that would land me in prison.
posted by gottabefunky at 9:25 PM on January 20, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by gottabefunky at 9:25 PM on January 20, 2016 [7 favorites]
Damned corrosive water caused by salt on roads caused by people driving in winter caused by the manufacturing boom caused by the auto industry. Damned Roger Smith destroying the auto industry in Flint causing the depression of the local economy causing financial emergencies and mismanagement.
Flint's problems and Michigan's problems in general run deeper than Rick Snyder. To say otherwise gives him far too much credit. We're a flat state, heads don't roll very far, and simple solutions are few and far between. Of the last 32 years, 16 have been with democratic governors, 16 with republicans, in alternating order. They've all sucked. The roads are shit, it's cold, there's huge brain drain, and perfectly well-meaning Michiganians still call themselves Michiganders without realizing or caring that it was originally meant as an insult.
It's going to take hard work and lots of money to fix this problem. Rolling heads will make a few people feel better, but it's not going to get clean water to Flint any sooner.
posted by tempestuoso at 9:43 PM on January 20, 2016 [9 favorites]
Flint's problems and Michigan's problems in general run deeper than Rick Snyder. To say otherwise gives him far too much credit. We're a flat state, heads don't roll very far, and simple solutions are few and far between. Of the last 32 years, 16 have been with democratic governors, 16 with republicans, in alternating order. They've all sucked. The roads are shit, it's cold, there's huge brain drain, and perfectly well-meaning Michiganians still call themselves Michiganders without realizing or caring that it was originally meant as an insult.
It's going to take hard work and lots of money to fix this problem. Rolling heads will make a few people feel better, but it's not going to get clean water to Flint any sooner.
posted by tempestuoso at 9:43 PM on January 20, 2016 [9 favorites]
Muchmore, who recently announced he is moving into the private sector...
After fucking over the public. Must be fucking nice.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:19 PM on January 20, 2016
After fucking over the public. Must be fucking nice.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:19 PM on January 20, 2016
Nobody ever goes to jail. Steal a Snickers bar at the wrong time; jail for months. Poison thousands? Switch jobs, keep on making bank, and roll on. Shameful.
posted by buzzman at 10:44 PM on January 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by buzzman at 10:44 PM on January 20, 2016 [8 favorites]
Flint's problems and Michigan's problems in general run deeper than Rick Snyder. To say otherwise gives him far too much credit. We're a flat state, heads don't roll very far
Yeah, it's a creeping fungus.
Matty Moroun, a Michigan billionaire, cost Canada extra bucks for a bridge because our government had to say "OK, fuck it, we'll pay for the whole goddamn thing."
But because of what he did, there have been whole neighbourhoods in Windsor, Ontario, that have been sitting vacant and boarded up for years because one rich asshole in Michigan was claiming he owned the rights to traffic at the busiest trade route between Canada and the US.
And it's getting worse. No, seriously, read some of this.
Moreover, he fucked Detroit by the way he routed traffic into Michigan via the Ambassador Bridge.
I love Detroit and Michigan.
I used to live in the Windsor neighbourhood that later became the boarded-up wasteland that sat empty for years while Moroun went through his machinations to control the bridge deal. The net effect was that he turned a small chunk of Windsor into Detroit-style urban decay in the meantime.
So, I didn't mean to derail - I just wanted to bolster tempestuos's point above by bringing a perspective ftom north of the border (well, Windsor's technically south of Detroit) about how noxious Michigan's politics are, and yeah, the heads don't roll the way they should in a just society.
And Flint - people literally being poisoned. Shit.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:57 PM on January 20, 2016 [12 favorites]
Yeah, it's a creeping fungus.
Matty Moroun, a Michigan billionaire, cost Canada extra bucks for a bridge because our government had to say "OK, fuck it, we'll pay for the whole goddamn thing."
But because of what he did, there have been whole neighbourhoods in Windsor, Ontario, that have been sitting vacant and boarded up for years because one rich asshole in Michigan was claiming he owned the rights to traffic at the busiest trade route between Canada and the US.
And it's getting worse. No, seriously, read some of this.
Moreover, he fucked Detroit by the way he routed traffic into Michigan via the Ambassador Bridge.
I love Detroit and Michigan.
I used to live in the Windsor neighbourhood that later became the boarded-up wasteland that sat empty for years while Moroun went through his machinations to control the bridge deal. The net effect was that he turned a small chunk of Windsor into Detroit-style urban decay in the meantime.
So, I didn't mean to derail - I just wanted to bolster tempestuos's point above by bringing a perspective ftom north of the border (well, Windsor's technically south of Detroit) about how noxious Michigan's politics are, and yeah, the heads don't roll the way they should in a just society.
And Flint - people literally being poisoned. Shit.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:57 PM on January 20, 2016 [12 favorites]
There should be manslaughter charges.The fuckers won't even get a fine.
This is what the emergency managers are there to do. This is not an accident. This is not a side-effect. This is not a tragedy. This is the Republican Party's working as intended.
Not that China has the right answer, maybe, but at least they have some serious way of dealing with corrupt officials and businessmen who make money from poisoning children.
If intentionally poisoning the water supply for money, or allowing it to be poisoned for money, isn't a criminal enterprise that deserves capital punishment, I don't know what is.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 12:06 AM on January 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is what the emergency managers are there to do. This is not an accident. This is not a side-effect. This is not a tragedy. This is the Republican Party's working as intended.
Not that China has the right answer, maybe, but at least they have some serious way of dealing with corrupt officials and businessmen who make money from poisoning children.
If intentionally poisoning the water supply for money, or allowing it to be poisoned for money, isn't a criminal enterprise that deserves capital punishment, I don't know what is.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 12:06 AM on January 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
This is a fucking outrage and people should go to jail. 2016. Fucking outrageous.
posted by persona au gratin at 12:18 AM on January 21, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by persona au gratin at 12:18 AM on January 21, 2016 [8 favorites]
At some point, I'm hoping federal prosecutors come down on everyone involved like a truckload of bricks. I hope that the only reason they haven't yet is that they're gathering all of the evidence they can so they have an air tight case.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:36 AM on January 21, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:36 AM on January 21, 2016 [9 favorites]
Ah, yes. Hope. Hope is the foundation of disappointment.
posted by Grangousier at 2:04 AM on January 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 2:04 AM on January 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
And the lack of hope is the foundation of despair. I hear the feds are investigating this as a criminal matter.
posted by tommyD at 4:21 AM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by tommyD at 4:21 AM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Poisoning the water supply is such a viscerally Bad Thing since, well, humans that it is amazing there isn't an absolute firestorm over this.
Committing acts which would be shocking to your children's children is amateur. Acts which would be horrifying to your great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparents' great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparents is an impressive level of bastardry.
posted by fullerine at 5:48 AM on January 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
Committing acts which would be shocking to your children's children is amateur. Acts which would be horrifying to your great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparents' great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparents is an impressive level of bastardry.
posted by fullerine at 5:48 AM on January 21, 2016 [5 favorites]
But yea, call me a socialist but I'm seriously OK with folks, myself included, paying more so that the poorest among us, and their kids, can drink and bathe like decent fucking human beings.
I think that's a perfectly good idea, but I was curious about what other cities actually *do*, not what we all think should be done.
posted by Juffo-Wup at 5:54 AM on January 21, 2016
I think that's a perfectly good idea, but I was curious about what other cities actually *do*, not what we all think should be done.
posted by Juffo-Wup at 5:54 AM on January 21, 2016
The thing that gets me is, there is no way to simplify the message of what happens here that can't be further simplified by Republicans into "The government fucked up - this is why we need less government." I just, I just can't.
posted by Mchelly at 6:05 AM on January 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Mchelly at 6:05 AM on January 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
Acts which would be horrifying to your great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparents' great-great-great-great-great-great-great-great-grandparents is an impressive level of bastardry.
Well, I don't know how many years back that is, but these guys would probably not have been horrified.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 6:14 AM on January 21, 2016
Well, I don't know how many years back that is, but these guys would probably not have been horrified.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 6:14 AM on January 21, 2016
Eh, loud noises and nothing will happen. That's the American Way.
posted by aramaic at 6:15 AM on January 21, 2016
posted by aramaic at 6:15 AM on January 21, 2016
"...there is no way to simplify the message of what happens here..."
There are enough separate and distinct screw ups along the way to the poisoning that this will simply end up an ideological Rorschach test.
posted by klarck at 6:18 AM on January 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
There are enough separate and distinct screw ups along the way to the poisoning that this will simply end up an ideological Rorschach test.
posted by klarck at 6:18 AM on January 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
Of all the things I expect from government, clean, safe water is absolutely basic. Unsafe water is the hallmark of Third World poverty, corruption, lack of services, and this situation has poverty, corruption and generally not giving a damn about residents. I've had well water that was off-colored due to iron(rust) that was quite safe, and boosts iron levels. I've had slightly cloudy water when conditions stir up the lake from where my delicious clean water is sourced.
Lead makes children less smart, it makes children and adults ill, even in pretty small doses. This situation should be blowing up even more than it is, heads should roll, somebody should go to jail. It's appalling at the deepest level. What a horrible situation for people who live there.
posted by theora55 at 7:13 AM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Lead makes children less smart, it makes children and adults ill, even in pretty small doses. This situation should be blowing up even more than it is, heads should roll, somebody should go to jail. It's appalling at the deepest level. What a horrible situation for people who live there.
posted by theora55 at 7:13 AM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
But yea, call me a socialist but I'm seriously OK with folks, myself included, paying more so that the poorest among us, and their kids, can drink and bathe like decent fucking human beings.
Thing is, American sprawl leads to major dis-economies of scale, and Flint's a particularly egregious case of it.
This is a city that sprawled out to provide each autoworker with the stereotypical big lawn he has earned with his labor.
And then lost half the population.
Which is why this is also the city that has tried in the past to push people out of their homes into more populated neighborhoods, so the empty areas could be condemned entirely and made to revert to forest. That's why the water bills are so high. The average Flint resident has a much larger amount of plumbing to maintain with his water bill. (Not just the pipes to his own house, but the pipes to neighboring empty properties.)
And Flint is just the beginning of this infrastructure problem. The Midwest at large is still in denial about it. In Massachusetts we've kinda sorta taken notice, which is why there's a never-ending battle to force towns to allow denser housing development in their centers. The rest of the country thinks we're europhilic weenies for doing this. Truth is we just are better with math.
posted by ocschwar at 8:04 AM on January 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
-How companies make millions off lead-poisoned, poor blacks
-It's not just Flint — every major American city has hazardous amounts of lead hurting kids
posted by kliuless at 8:08 AM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
-It's not just Flint — every major American city has hazardous amounts of lead hurting kids
posted by kliuless at 8:08 AM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Jesus christ what is it going to take to remove Snyder from office?
posted by elsietheeel at 8:12 AM on January 21, 2016
posted by elsietheeel at 8:12 AM on January 21, 2016
One more election.
posted by Etrigan at 8:26 AM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 8:26 AM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
Michigan's next gubernatorial election is almost three years away.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:28 AM on January 21, 2016
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:28 AM on January 21, 2016
raihan_
For starters:
http://www.wateryoufightingfor.com
https://www.gofundme.com/cleanwaterflint
http://flintwaterstudy.org
#FlintWaterCrisis
posted by Cheezitsofcool at 8:28 AM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
For starters:
http://www.wateryoufightingfor.com
https://www.gofundme.com/cleanwaterflint
http://flintwaterstudy.org
#FlintWaterCrisis
posted by Cheezitsofcool at 8:28 AM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
(There have been rumors and sniffs around Michigan for the last couple of years that he was on various short lists for the VP nom -- or even that he was seriously considering a 2020 run at the big job -- as a centrist, business-oriented, get-stuff-done Republican. Haven't heard much of those rumors in the last month or so.)
posted by Etrigan at 8:29 AM on January 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 8:29 AM on January 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
"I heard you found a new apartment! That's great! You're moving in in two months? Well, I don't want to kick you out early, but I'm raising the rent for those last two months by $10 million. Hey, at least I'm not evicting you!"It's more akin to, "Oh, you found a new place and want to stay for two months extra without signing a new long-term lease? Sure, here's a massively increased rate".
In real life, that's exactly what my last apartment in Chicago was like. You had your lease, but after the term expired, the month-to-month rate was was several hundred dollars higher than what it was during the lease term. (One could sign a new lease, and get a new fixed rate, but if you wanted to only stay a month or two for reasons, it sucked).
posted by osi at 8:38 AM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
One year later, and more than six months before Governor Rick Snyder intervened to reconnect Flint to the Detroit water system in October 2015, the Flint City Council had voted to “do all things necessary” to do so. The problem was that their vote was merely symbolic: the city was under the control of a state-appointed emergency manager, who said the council’s vote to rejoin the system to the tune of $12 million per year was “incomprehensible.”posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:32 AM on January 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
The problem with people who want government to be run like a business is that none of them actually know how to run a business. They know how to take over a business, how to hack and slash until the books (temporarily) look good, and how to get out before the other shoe drops. Actually running a business requires expertise in what the business actually does, and clearly the manager who was brought in didn't know anything about that.
If he knew anything about running the water, he would know that the water going through Flint's pipes has to be treated to prevent the lead from leeching out. This is not a new, surprising thing, since this is exactly what Detroit was doing for the water that was getting sent to Flint, but when you assign an emergency manager who doesn't know anything about water treatment (or education) to handle things, this is exactly what will happen.
posted by ckape at 11:11 AM on January 21, 2016 [7 favorites]
If he knew anything about running the water, he would know that the water going through Flint's pipes has to be treated to prevent the lead from leeching out. This is not a new, surprising thing, since this is exactly what Detroit was doing for the water that was getting sent to Flint, but when you assign an emergency manager who doesn't know anything about water treatment (or education) to handle things, this is exactly what will happen.
posted by ckape at 11:11 AM on January 21, 2016 [7 favorites]
Our state is a mess thanks to gerrymandered districts that let the republicans control ALL branches of government. Setting aside all the normal controls lets people without subject specific expertise run things on the basis of cut costs as much as possible with no regard to safety, good educations, customer service, building decent roads and all the other basics we expect from government. Snyder's mea culpa in his state of the state speech rang hollow given his failures to act, disclose or attempt to find anything remotely like enough money to start fixing the huge problems that his administration has made.
I hope there will be criminal charges filed - as others have said - if they aren't federal they won't go anywhere given Schuette's complicity and self interest. It will take a huge groundswell of activism to get these clowns out of office and to work on repairing our state. Maybe, just maybe, there has been enough light shed on their misdeeds to inspire more people to get involved.
posted by leslies at 11:30 AM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
I hope there will be criminal charges filed - as others have said - if they aren't federal they won't go anywhere given Schuette's complicity and self interest. It will take a huge groundswell of activism to get these clowns out of office and to work on repairing our state. Maybe, just maybe, there has been enough light shed on their misdeeds to inspire more people to get involved.
posted by leslies at 11:30 AM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
At the very least, filter the Flint river through Snyder's kidneys, and the kidneys of everyone who voted for him.
Please don't put this on the voters. I voted for him, I'm not particularly proud of it, but his opponents weren't appealing to me either. I don't know the levels to which this was hidden, ignored, or covered up - but I think he should resign if he knew about it and didn't immediately take action.
Michigan was in a shitty place when Synder was voted into office with grand promises of making our state great again. I'm sure I'm not the only one who believed he would do it, or make a good effort anyways.
There's a great many people responsible for this crisis in Flint, but voters needs to be at the bottom of that list. No one voluntarily gives their kids and neighborhood lead poisoning.
posted by INFJ at 1:18 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Please don't put this on the voters. I voted for him, I'm not particularly proud of it, but his opponents weren't appealing to me either. I don't know the levels to which this was hidden, ignored, or covered up - but I think he should resign if he knew about it and didn't immediately take action.
Michigan was in a shitty place when Synder was voted into office with grand promises of making our state great again. I'm sure I'm not the only one who believed he would do it, or make a good effort anyways.
There's a great many people responsible for this crisis in Flint, but voters needs to be at the bottom of that list. No one voluntarily gives their kids and neighborhood lead poisoning.
posted by INFJ at 1:18 PM on January 21, 2016 [1 favorite]
Please don't put this on the voters. I voted for him, I'm not particularly proud of it, but his opponents weren't appealing to me either.
I voted for him too (the first time, at least), because he presented as the sort of person who wouldn't let this sort of thing happen. I didn't realize he was the sort of person who would let more or less anything happen if it wasn't about jobsjobsjobs.
posted by Etrigan at 1:21 PM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
I voted for him too (the first time, at least), because he presented as the sort of person who wouldn't let this sort of thing happen. I didn't realize he was the sort of person who would let more or less anything happen if it wasn't about jobsjobsjobs.
posted by Etrigan at 1:21 PM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Oh, you found a new place and want to stay for two months extra without signing a new long-term lease? Sure, here's a massively increased rate".
Except that they had a fifty year lease, which Detroit ended early, seeing Flint planning to do so a few years later. It looks to me like that ides of universal default, where a creditor sees you're in trouble and jacks up your interest rates on every other debt, to extract as much interest as possible before you declare bankruptcy, but often tipping you into it.
Detroit saw that Flint was leaving, and decided to make leaving as painful as possible. Which sure worked!
posted by anotherpanacea at 2:41 PM on January 21, 2016
Except that they had a fifty year lease, which Detroit ended early, seeing Flint planning to do so a few years later. It looks to me like that ides of universal default, where a creditor sees you're in trouble and jacks up your interest rates on every other debt, to extract as much interest as possible before you declare bankruptcy, but often tipping you into it.
Detroit saw that Flint was leaving, and decided to make leaving as painful as possible. Which sure worked!
posted by anotherpanacea at 2:41 PM on January 21, 2016
"On the other hand, what do other cities do when people don't pay their water bills? *Not* shut the service off?"
Orlando FL's answer to this problem is to condemn the dwelling once the water is, shut off. This ensures that the problem can conveniently be postponed or, even better, be moved on to somewhere else entirely.
I know this because one of my old landlords was a layer with a substance abuse problem. He was responsible for the water on my property. He stopped paying the bill and I never knew until the water was suddenly shut off. I couldn't afford to pay the past due amount to get reconnected, so the city condemned the property and I was given 3 days to get out. As much as I couldn't afford to pay the water bill, it was even worse to pay to move and come up with another security deposit on a new place (of course I didn't get my old security deposit back since the landlord had basically dropped off the face of the earth). Ahhh, it's so fun to be poor.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 2:53 PM on January 21, 2016
Orlando FL's answer to this problem is to condemn the dwelling once the water is, shut off. This ensures that the problem can conveniently be postponed or, even better, be moved on to somewhere else entirely.
I know this because one of my old landlords was a layer with a substance abuse problem. He was responsible for the water on my property. He stopped paying the bill and I never knew until the water was suddenly shut off. I couldn't afford to pay the past due amount to get reconnected, so the city condemned the property and I was given 3 days to get out. As much as I couldn't afford to pay the water bill, it was even worse to pay to move and come up with another security deposit on a new place (of course I didn't get my old security deposit back since the landlord had basically dropped off the face of the earth). Ahhh, it's so fun to be poor.
posted by WalkerWestridge at 2:53 PM on January 21, 2016
Snyder's campaign as "one tough nerd" convinced a lot of people that he would be a moderate technocrat. Clearly he's anything but - I've heard that the DeVos's told him they'd primary him if he didn't do their bidding and I believe it.
His first opponent stepped in with little time to prep after the previous Lt Governor backed out of running very late in the process. A pity - Virg Bernero has been a very effective mayor in Lansing and ran a terrible campaign. Second time out Schauer never seemed to find what he was running towards - just a litany of what he was running against. I know and respect him but he just didn't run an effective campaign, especially against an extremely well-funded incumbent.
posted by leslies at 3:03 PM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
His first opponent stepped in with little time to prep after the previous Lt Governor backed out of running very late in the process. A pity - Virg Bernero has been a very effective mayor in Lansing and ran a terrible campaign. Second time out Schauer never seemed to find what he was running towards - just a litany of what he was running against. I know and respect him but he just didn't run an effective campaign, especially against an extremely well-funded incumbent.
posted by leslies at 3:03 PM on January 21, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't think this has made it here yet:
EPA Official Resigns Over Flint, Michigan, Water Crisis
Regional administrator Susan Hedman will resign effective Feb. 1 as the federal agency investigates her office’s supervision of public water systems.
posted by Room 641-A at 6:30 PM on January 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
EPA Official Resigns Over Flint, Michigan, Water Crisis
Regional administrator Susan Hedman will resign effective Feb. 1 as the federal agency investigates her office’s supervision of public water systems.
posted by Room 641-A at 6:30 PM on January 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
EPA Official Resigns Over Flint, Michigan, Water Crisis
The GOP's effort to blame the EPA, in this context, amounts to a line from Animal House:
"you fucked up. You trusted us."
posted by ocschwar at 4:51 AM on January 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
The GOP's effort to blame the EPA, in this context, amounts to a line from Animal House:
"you fucked up. You trusted us."
posted by ocschwar at 4:51 AM on January 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
The GOP's effort to blame the EPA, in this context, amounts to a line from Animal House:
"you fucked up. You trusted us."
It really doesn't. The EPA is deeply culpable here: EPA Stayed Silent on Flint's Tainted Water.
Check out the email dump here: Where is the US EPA?
posted by anotherpanacea at 7:07 AM on January 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
"you fucked up. You trusted us."
It really doesn't. The EPA is deeply culpable here: EPA Stayed Silent on Flint's Tainted Water.
An EPA water expert, Miguel Del Toral, identified potential problems with Flint’s drinking water in February, confirmed the suspicions in April and summarized the looming problem in a June internal memo. The state decided in October to change Flint’s drinking water source from the corrosive Flint River back to the Detroit water system.This may well be a partisan issue tied to the emergency manager law, but it required a very serious failure at EPA in which Hedman actively opposed alerting the public and apologized to the mayor for the release of Del Toral's findings.
Critics have charged Hedman with attempting to keep the memo’s information in-house and downplaying its significance.
Check out the email dump here: Where is the US EPA?
posted by anotherpanacea at 7:07 AM on January 22, 2016 [2 favorites]
And really, there's actually something hopeful in the fact that this required multiple, cascading failures. If it really was up to some yahoos in bumfuck to decide how to treat water, with the EPA completely clueless, we'd see this kind of problem everywhere, all the time.
Usually, there would be several levels of oversight to prevent it. Identifying where that oversight went wrong is the real question here, and there I do think that the institutional changes that Governor Snyder put in place probably did the most damage: he was the one controlling Michigan's Department of Environmental Quality. He was the one foisting poorly prepared emergency managers onto these small struggling cities.
posted by anotherpanacea at 7:10 AM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
Usually, there would be several levels of oversight to prevent it. Identifying where that oversight went wrong is the real question here, and there I do think that the institutional changes that Governor Snyder put in place probably did the most damage: he was the one controlling Michigan's Department of Environmental Quality. He was the one foisting poorly prepared emergency managers onto these small struggling cities.
posted by anotherpanacea at 7:10 AM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
I voted for him too (the first time, at least), because he presented as the sort of person who wouldn't let this sort of thing happen.
I don't understand this. It's not 1975. The Republicans have quite openly been out of the business of running people with good intentions for a long time. If you somehow haven't noticed that, why should you get the benefit of the doubt w/r/t your judgment?
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:12 AM on January 22, 2016 [6 favorites]
I don't understand this. It's not 1975. The Republicans have quite openly been out of the business of running people with good intentions for a long time. If you somehow haven't noticed that, why should you get the benefit of the doubt w/r/t your judgment?
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:12 AM on January 22, 2016 [6 favorites]
Pope Guilty, not everyone spends a lot of time focused on politics. At the time, our state was in dire straights and we had just weathered the scandal of Detroit's mayor. Granted, his scandal didn't impact the state as a whole; it only amplified the already poor reputation of Detroit, and by extension, the people living in SE Michigan. You can't say that it didn't make an impact on the people of the state. It was 24/7 news coverage here.
Then you had Synder, looking a bit nerdy but otherwise sane and moderate.. against a smattering of unappealing to downright smarmy looking opponents.
If it helps any, his lackluster performance as Governer - combined with the state of congress the past few years, has made me do research on the candidates I am considering placing my vote for. I'm not perfect, though. Occasionally a TV ad will swing me one way or another. I don't watch debates and I don't attend rallies. Sometimes I've even voted for one candidate because I seen more of his "Vote for me!" lawn signs then I have others. I'm willing to bet there's more people like me then you care to admit. Politics may be important, but I know being able to buy food and pay my bills takes priority in my mind. I'm worried about trying to live my life, it's a little much to assume I've had the mental space and emotional constitution to make pros and cons tables of each possible candidate and proposals of every election.
posted by INFJ at 7:42 AM on January 22, 2016
Then you had Synder, looking a bit nerdy but otherwise sane and moderate.. against a smattering of unappealing to downright smarmy looking opponents.
If it helps any, his lackluster performance as Governer - combined with the state of congress the past few years, has made me do research on the candidates I am considering placing my vote for. I'm not perfect, though. Occasionally a TV ad will swing me one way or another. I don't watch debates and I don't attend rallies. Sometimes I've even voted for one candidate because I seen more of his "Vote for me!" lawn signs then I have others. I'm willing to bet there's more people like me then you care to admit. Politics may be important, but I know being able to buy food and pay my bills takes priority in my mind. I'm worried about trying to live my life, it's a little much to assume I've had the mental space and emotional constitution to make pros and cons tables of each possible candidate and proposals of every election.
posted by INFJ at 7:42 AM on January 22, 2016
"not everyone spends a lot of time focused on politics. " This is precisely what Snyder and his cronies were counting on - they presented themselves as rational, competent people rather than frothing ideologues - and that gave them the freedom to really wreak havoc in a way that the more obvious nuts have not. Incentive to pay attention going forward I hope because the price of not is very high. It's much harder to find out with the way local news is being eviscerated all over the place but makes it crucially important.
A friend of mine has started the CivCity initiative in Ann Arbor to help make it easier for people to be aware and involved in local issues because she has seen the damage done by the failure of local media (she was an editor at the Ann Arbor News back when it was still a real newspaper). I think we need more of this sort of thing to shed light on the kind of backroom unmonitored decision making that let Flint's water situation happen and go unchecked for years. I don't blame the lack of media scrutiny early on for the Snyder administrations misdeeds but it certainly made it easier.
posted by leslies at 7:53 AM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
A friend of mine has started the CivCity initiative in Ann Arbor to help make it easier for people to be aware and involved in local issues because she has seen the damage done by the failure of local media (she was an editor at the Ann Arbor News back when it was still a real newspaper). I think we need more of this sort of thing to shed light on the kind of backroom unmonitored decision making that let Flint's water situation happen and go unchecked for years. I don't blame the lack of media scrutiny early on for the Snyder administrations misdeeds but it certainly made it easier.
posted by leslies at 7:53 AM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
Anonymous Launches Campaign Against Michigan Governor for Poison Water Crisis
posted by Room 641-A at 11:18 AM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Room 641-A at 11:18 AM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is precisely what Snyder and his cronies were counting on - they presented themselves as rational, competent people rather than frothing ideologues - and that gave them the freedom to really wreak havoc in a way that the more obvious nuts have not.
It's the same scam Scott Walker ran over in Wisconsin.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:47 PM on January 22, 2016 [4 favorites]
It's the same scam Scott Walker ran over in Wisconsin.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:47 PM on January 22, 2016 [4 favorites]
If you somehow haven't noticed that, why should you get the benefit of the doubt w/r/t your judgment?
I wasn't asking for the benefit of the doubt. But please, continue to tell me how I fucked up, because clearly I had no idea.
posted by Etrigan at 7:24 PM on January 22, 2016
I wasn't asking for the benefit of the doubt. But please, continue to tell me how I fucked up, because clearly I had no idea.
posted by Etrigan at 7:24 PM on January 22, 2016
You're absolutely right, that was a dick thing to say, and I apologize.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:45 PM on January 22, 2016
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:45 PM on January 22, 2016
The EPA is deeply culpable here...
Check out the email dump here: Where is the US EPA?
I'm not sure it suggests asking "where" is the EPA. In fact, having read some of the email dump, it seems to suggest the very opposite.
It seems like a representative of the EPA kept asking the MDEQ repeatedly and from the start how their lead testing was done, indicating the issues that would be present with their testing procedures that would artificially reduce lead measurements, and kept asking what corrosion controls were put into place to deal with Flint's water supply switchover.
It is criminal to poison people. It is also criminal for Michigan to have anti-FOIA laws in place, which are there to prevent a full, fair and true accounting of criminal acts of poisoning by conservatives who are running the state of Michigan. It should also be criminal to try to blame other people, when it was Michigan's conservatives who chose to poison Flint's water supply and ignore EPA questions and warnings.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 12:44 AM on January 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
Check out the email dump here: Where is the US EPA?
I'm not sure it suggests asking "where" is the EPA. In fact, having read some of the email dump, it seems to suggest the very opposite.
It seems like a representative of the EPA kept asking the MDEQ repeatedly and from the start how their lead testing was done, indicating the issues that would be present with their testing procedures that would artificially reduce lead measurements, and kept asking what corrosion controls were put into place to deal with Flint's water supply switchover.
It is criminal to poison people. It is also criminal for Michigan to have anti-FOIA laws in place, which are there to prevent a full, fair and true accounting of criminal acts of poisoning by conservatives who are running the state of Michigan. It should also be criminal to try to blame other people, when it was Michigan's conservatives who chose to poison Flint's water supply and ignore EPA questions and warnings.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 12:44 AM on January 23, 2016 [3 favorites]
It is also criminal for Michigan to have anti-FOIA laws in place
I'm not sure it is. Each state has its own laws regarding freedom of information, and they're more or less free to pass other laws that amend them on their own. The federal FOIA doesn't prescribe how much information states have to turn over when asked.
posted by BungaDunga at 6:03 PM on January 23, 2016
I'm not sure it is. Each state has its own laws regarding freedom of information, and they're more or less free to pass other laws that amend them on their own. The federal FOIA doesn't prescribe how much information states have to turn over when asked.
posted by BungaDunga at 6:03 PM on January 23, 2016
undocumented immigrants in flint have other challenges according to those articles: some are scared to go to distribution centers to get water because they ask for ID*. some don't speak english and didn't hear about this until the past few weeks. others won't open the door to local groups passing out water and filters out of general fear of deportation.
*which led to a clarification: Identification “is not required, it's just requested,” Lt. David Kaiser, a spokesperson for the Michigan State Police’s field services bureau, told Yahoo News. though here's video of a person without ID being denied. i don't know if that's current or verified fwiw.
posted by twist my arm at 6:36 PM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
*which led to a clarification: Identification “is not required, it's just requested,” Lt. David Kaiser, a spokesperson for the Michigan State Police’s field services bureau, told Yahoo News. though here's video of a person without ID being denied. i don't know if that's current or verified fwiw.
posted by twist my arm at 6:36 PM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure it suggests asking "where" is the EPA. In fact, having read some of the email dump, it seems to suggest the very opposite.
The EPA knew there was a problem in April. They buried a report by Del Toral, stonewalled the ACLU, and even apologized for the leak of the information. The DEQ folks talk about this (in celebratory terms) on page 38. What's more, the EPA appointee who buried the Del Toral report has resigned and acknowledged that Del Toral was acting as a whistle-blower and should not have been punished for leaking his report.
posted by anotherpanacea at 7:40 PM on January 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
The EPA knew there was a problem in April. They buried a report by Del Toral, stonewalled the ACLU, and even apologized for the leak of the information. The DEQ folks talk about this (in celebratory terms) on page 38. What's more, the EPA appointee who buried the Del Toral report has resigned and acknowledged that Del Toral was acting as a whistle-blower and should not have been punished for leaking his report.
posted by anotherpanacea at 7:40 PM on January 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
The #FlintWaterCrisis is Not just a Black Issue it is also an Indigenous Issue
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:33 PM on January 23, 2016
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:33 PM on January 23, 2016
The Governor of Michigan Will Likely Be Forced to Testify on the Flint Water Crisis. Rick Snyder is done. He's toast.
posted by homunculus at 5:46 PM on January 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 5:46 PM on January 24, 2016 [3 favorites]
Jeb Bush: Don’t Blame Governor Snyder For Flint Crisis, Blame Regulations
posted by homunculus at 5:47 PM on January 24, 2016
posted by homunculus at 5:47 PM on January 24, 2016
US authorities distorting tests to downplay lead content of water: Documents seen by the Guardian reveal questionable practices that mean people’s drinking water is at risk in ‘every major city east of the Mississippi’
Flint rewrites water testing directions blamed in lead pollution crisis: Michigan city’s instructions called on residents to ‘pre-flush’ pipes, a process criticized by federal authorities for reducing levels of toxins detected
posted by homunculus at 5:59 PM on January 26, 2016
Flint rewrites water testing directions blamed in lead pollution crisis: Michigan city’s instructions called on residents to ‘pre-flush’ pipes, a process criticized by federal authorities for reducing levels of toxins detected
posted by homunculus at 5:59 PM on January 26, 2016
What Emergency? Lead Pipes Not Being Removed in Flint
posted by homunculus at 5:59 PM on January 26, 2016
posted by homunculus at 5:59 PM on January 26, 2016
Reason's Bizarre Portrayal of Flint's Water Crisis
posted by kliuless at 12:34 PM on January 28, 2016
posted by kliuless at 12:34 PM on January 28, 2016
Document: Snyder Admin Trucked In Clean Water for State Building in January 2015
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:08 PM on January 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:08 PM on January 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
The Struggle for Accountability in Flint
Michigan is the rare state where both the legislature and the governor’s office are exempt from public records requests. The Michigan Supreme Court, the attorney general’s office, and the secretary of state’s office are also exempt. There are additional FOIA exemptions for information about trade secrets, security, medical records, and attorney-client privilege; a new bill seeks further exemptions for energy infrastructure and cyber-security. In Michigan, no independent entity monitors the use of open access laws to ensure that they are fair and effective. While the law requires a response time of five to fifteen business days for FOIA requests, in practice, a one-to-three month wait is not uncommon.posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:56 PM on February 2, 2016
So now the FBI is investigating. Darnell Earley, the former emergency manager of Flint and more recently Detroit Public Schools, has resigned and has been subpoenaed to testify before Congress - and is declining to do so. And Flint mayor Karen Weaver is working to get the pipes replaced. It's a huge mess and the more we learn the worse it gets. Still waiting for indictments.
posted by leslies at 7:11 PM on February 2, 2016
posted by leslies at 7:11 PM on February 2, 2016
“4 Reasons Flint's Water Crisis Is Worse Than You Think,” Saundra Sorenson & Anonymous, Cracked, 03 February 2016
posted by ob1quixote at 5:41 PM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ob1quixote at 5:41 PM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
"The Flint Water Crisis: A Special Edition Environment and Health Roundtable": "Front and center among them are the questions raised about the environmental health of our society today, faced as we are with the legacies of a century and more of the massive use of lead. Recognized for centuries as a poison, the subtler ravages of lead have only recently become better known.
"In the following roundtable, I and Amy Hay have gathered together reflections on Flint from six scholars—one engineer, two economists, and three historians—exploring these and related legacies."
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:25 AM on February 7, 2016
"In the following roundtable, I and Amy Hay have gathered together reflections on Flint from six scholars—one engineer, two economists, and three historians—exploring these and related legacies."
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:25 AM on February 7, 2016
Will the Flint Water Crisis Really Result in Manslaughter Charges? It's a crime against a community, and the consequences are devastating. But don't hold your breath.
posted by homunculus at 7:31 PM on February 11, 2016
posted by homunculus at 7:31 PM on February 11, 2016
As They Drank Contaminated Water, Flint Residents Were Charged The Highest Water Rates In The Country
posted by homunculus at 4:37 PM on February 17, 2016
posted by homunculus at 4:37 PM on February 17, 2016
Democracy Now: "Thirsty for Democracy: The Poisoning of an American City": Special Report on Flint's Water Crisis
posted by homunculus at 2:19 PM on February 18, 2016
posted by homunculus at 2:19 PM on February 18, 2016
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posted by Existential Dread at 6:17 PM on January 20, 2016 [11 favorites]