I love the smell of Schadenfreude in the morning
January 22, 2016 9:53 AM   Subscribe

From Pickup Artist to Pariah Jared Rutledge fancied himself a big man of the 'manosphere.' But when his online musings about 46 women were exposed, his whole town turned against him.
posted by pretentious illiterate (99 comments total) 36 users marked this as a favorite
 


what the fuck is wrong with men
posted by The Whelk at 10:13 AM on January 22, 2016 [44 favorites]


From the article:

Jared had uncomfortable conversations about his personal life with his family members. “You know,” his grandmother told him, “we’re women too.”

Man, if your own grandma has to remind you that women are human beings and worthy of respect....

The online discussion got so heated that one local yoga instructor created a special series of poses to enable forgiveness and shared it on Facebook. But, said Jared, “Nobody reached out to us to say, ‘What do you need to heal, to be better men?’ — except Trey.”

Amazing that no one considered their feelings.

There's a point later on in the article where the author tells the reader during a conversation with Jared, "You can’t tell from the recording, but I’m pretty sure I put my head in my hands." Unreal.
posted by zarq at 10:14 AM on January 22, 2016 [36 favorites]


It's the coffee shop guys! When I saw the link, I thought, "I bet this is the gross coffee shop guys," and it is!

I think what is most striking about this dude is that he doesn't think he was wrong. He says that he knows he was wrong because it hurt people, but he hasn't changed his mind about any of it. He views his failing as having made his beliefs public, not in having them. He's still sending people articles to prove that "Game" is correct and scientifically sound. He's sorry because it makes it harder to pick up women, not because he thinks women are people.

I asked him if he still wanted to follow the plan he’d written about in his pre-reflection-and-repentance era: fuck around as much as possible until age 38, then marry a 24- or 25-year-old. “Yeah,” he said without hesitation. “Derek Jeter’s doing it.” I must have looked incredulous. “It’s kind of a double standard, right?” he said. “Because everyone’s okay with him doing it, nobody has a problem with that.”

“Why do you want to marry a 25-year-old?” I asked.

“Hotness, absolutely,” he said.

I pointed out that 25-year-olds eventually become 35-year-olds, and then 45-year-olds.

“Here’s the thing,” he said. “There’s scientific evidence that when a male commits to somebody, in his brain they’re always as attractive — I’ll send you the study.” You can’t tell from the recording, but I’m pretty sure I put my head in my hands. “Why does that provoke such an emotional response in you?” Jared asked.


HE'LL SEND YOU THE STUDY, REPORTER, NO WORRIES, SOON YOU'LL SEE THE WORLD WITH THE SAME CLARITY, NO PROB
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:15 AM on January 22, 2016 [76 favorites]


it was that exchange with the reporter about how he'd either go for a hot 25 year old or a 50 year old C-level executive that made me want to put my head down on my desk and laugh until i cried. the only women worth of dating are hot young ones or rich old ones? got it. also go jump up your own ass please.
posted by palomar at 10:26 AM on January 22, 2016 [28 favorites]


Some Ashevillians took a boys-will-be-boys attitude, arguing that Jared and Jacob were just talking the way men talk when women aren’t around.

The knee-jerk urge to excuse them for doing things like calling women "fucksocks" and worse is also a huge part of the problem. No, most men don't speak that way when women aren't around. And if they do, they're assholes, and their behavior shouldn't be given a pass.
posted by zarq at 10:28 AM on January 22, 2016 [66 favorites]


Also, I don't really agree Trey's attempts to help the dudes rejoin the community, but this is a brief jewel of beauty that I wish to re-read daily:

It had been three days since the scandal had broken, and the two men looked feral, hunted. They hadn’t been eating; they smelled bad. Trey told them to sit down and asked them to explain what they’d done and why. Every time they offered up an excuse or rationalization, Trey filled the room with his shouting. “He’s a big guy,” Jared told me. “I’d never been sat down and yelled at like that by a man before.”

Craven attempts at self-justification drowned out by a large man counteracting word-garbage with terrifying shouting? YES. Make it a reality show, and I'll watch it faithfully.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:29 AM on January 22, 2016 [100 favorites]


Article NSF any woman who has or may decide to practice heterosexuality.
posted by Countess Elena at 10:29 AM on January 22, 2016 [52 favorites]


Craven attempts at self-justification drowned out by a large man counteracting word-garbage with terrifying shouting? YES. Make it a reality show, and I'll watch it faithfully.

SECONDED
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 10:30 AM on January 22, 2016 [6 favorites]


I didn't follow this closely when it broke, but one thing I noticed in the article is that he does the typical blind thing of assuming people who do not have the same power and privilege that he does will do the heavy lifting and educate him. Go, read up on the basics, understand, come back as an ally, not someone who is defending his actions. Also, this sort of thing takes time.

That said, his life growing up is a perfect example of "the patriarchy hurts men too." It doesn't excuse anything, but the harm is evident.
posted by Hactar at 10:31 AM on January 22, 2016 [13 favorites]


Wait, there's seriously a thing that the people involved call "the manosphere"? That almost makes me feel SORRY for these people... All I can think of is some little kid on the verge of tears furiously telling his sister, "Thtop! You can't come in here! Girlth are not allowed in the MANOTHPHERE!"
posted by Sing Or Swim at 10:32 AM on January 22, 2016 [22 favorites]


I enjoyed the picture of the women protesters with signs reading "Fucksocks against misogyny" because that was funny/awful in just the right way.

I had heard about this before in relation to the women's shelter saying "nope" to the donations, but that's all I knew about it.

I'm not even sure what a guy like this should do to fix his broken self, but then it shouldn't be my job to figure that out. I hope he does, and that he doesn't hurt any more women in the process, but I'm not terribly optimistic for it.
posted by emjaybee at 10:35 AM on January 22, 2016 [18 favorites]


MetaFilter: counteracting word-garbage with terrifying shouting
posted by Gelatin at 10:38 AM on January 22, 2016 [30 favorites]


Some Ashevillians took a boys-will-be-boys attitude, arguing that Jared and Jacob were just talking the way men talk when women aren’t around.

Shitty, fucked up men, yes. Who should stop doing that.
posted by maxsparber at 10:41 AM on January 22, 2016 [7 favorites]


Something tells me Jared will join the ministry soon and plant a church in a gentrifying town in the south, surrounding himself with the young attractive hipster Christians that are so plentiful here. It will have an awesome coffee shop and impeccable style and you won't know it's run by a church until you notice that the hipsters are talking about the Bible and the wi-fi sucks. Jared will write a memoir. Jacob, it's harder to know.
posted by theefixedstars at 10:43 AM on January 22, 2016 [36 favorites]


That said, his life growing up is a perfect example of "the patriarchy hurts men too."

Being raised Christian in the USA teaches you how to combat opposing point of views with "Naw aw! This books says different!"; whether it's the Bible or MRA studies. Just replacing one god with another...
posted by The Power Nap at 10:43 AM on January 22, 2016 [13 favorites]


Also, Asheville comes off as a really neat place in this article, at least the women who live there seem nice. They all helped each other and became friends after! One is starting her own coffee shop!

Gives me that glowy 9-to-5, sisterhood-is-powerful feeling.
posted by emjaybee at 10:44 AM on January 22, 2016 [54 favorites]


The new angle in this story for me is Trey Crispin, the man who steps in to solve the problems with his "enlightened macho-ness" and yelling. I also can't figure him out -- he means well, but there's also something infuriating about him. (As a character portrayed in this story, of course. I don't know anything about him as a real human being.) Are there Jareds in part because of Treys, whose dominance is expressed in manbun world music peacefulness? Or would more Treys snap all the savage PUAs in half like snowboards?
posted by theefixedstars at 10:51 AM on January 22, 2016 [15 favorites]


In 2012, Jared simultaneously split up from his long-term girlfriend and lost his faith in Christianity after a family tragedy that he prefers not to talk about.

One of the subtler virtues of evangelical Christianity's disapproval of multiple partners and sex in general is that it tends to keep a lot of misogyny like Jared's bottled up and harmful to relatively fewer women.
posted by jamjam at 10:51 AM on January 22, 2016 [6 favorites]


The online discussion got so heated that one local yoga instructor created a special series of poses to enable forgiveness and shared it on Facebook. But, said Jared, “Nobody reached out to us to say, ‘What do you need to heal, to be better men?’ — except Trey.”

The more I think about this, the more it grosses me out. What was their expectation, that the women in their community that they treated so poorly would be lining up to help them be better men?
posted by palomar at 10:51 AM on January 22, 2016 [54 favorites]


What was their expectation, that the women in their community that they treated so poorly would be lining up to help them be better men?

Well, yes. It was his redemption arc, and men are the main characters! Duh! Why were all of the plucky yet seductive romantic interests refusing to follow the script???? HIS EMOTIONAL STATE IS THE ONLY ONE THAT MATTERS, ASHEVILLE.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:56 AM on January 22, 2016 [66 favorites]


palomar: "The online discussion got so heated that one local yoga instructor created a special series of poses to enable forgiveness and shared it on Facebook. But, said Jared, “Nobody reached out to us to say, ‘What do you need to heal, to be better men?’ — except Trey.”

The more I think about this, the more it grosses me out. What was their expectation, that the women in their community that they treated so poorly would be lining up to help them be better men?
"

a fiendish thingy: "What was their expectation, that the women in their community that they treated so poorly would be lining up to help them be better men?

Well, yes. It was his redemption arc, and men are the main characters! Duh! Why were all of the plucky yet seductive romantic interests refusing to follow the script???? HIS EMOTIONAL STATE IS THE ONLY ONE THAT MATTERS, ASHEVILLE.
"

Well, that pretty much made my point while I was in the shower. Pretty much nowadays, there is no evil, and the modern media is always feeding us stories of second chances and redemption. I don't think anyone was obligated to save them, but I also don't think their expectations were entirely irrational.
posted by Samizdata at 11:00 AM on January 22, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trey sounds like a Robert Bly, reclaiming-manhood-via-drum-circle type.
posted by emjaybee at 11:01 AM on January 22, 2016 [8 favorites]


One of the subtler virtues of evangelical Christianity's disapproval of multiple partners and sex in general is that it tends to keep a lot of misogyny like Jared's bottled up and harmful to relatively fewer women.
No. Christianity is totally fine with misogyny. Have you seen how women are treated in the Bible? It's... not pretty. Christianity breeds a culture of "forgiveness" -- women should forgive men for treating them terribly. As long as men repent, as long as they say they are sorry for being caught, they can keep on treating women like garbage. All they have to do is repent, with words. Christianity is not doing feminism any favors.
posted by sockermom at 11:04 AM on January 22, 2016 [16 favorites]


The Whelk: "what the fuck is wrong with men"

They don't move the glass away from the sink.
posted by symbioid at 11:06 AM on January 22, 2016 [48 favorites]


I find this stuff so utterly fascinating. Something is obviously going on to make such broad swathes of Western men so toxic towards women, but what? And furthermore, how do you investigate it with any kind of compassion without discarding the fact that what these men do is really really bad? And more to the point, how do you investigate it while also helping women heal from its fallout and deal with its apparently ceaseless intrusion into their lives?
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 11:10 AM on January 22, 2016 [9 favorites]


symbioid: "The Whelk: "what the fuck is wrong with men"

They don't move the glass away from the sink.
"

Wait... WHAT?
posted by Samizdata at 11:11 AM on January 22, 2016 [3 favorites]


One of the subtler virtues of evangelical Christianity's disapproval of multiple partners and sex in general is that it tends to keep a lot of misogyny like Jared's bottled up and harmful to relatively fewer women.
No. Christianity is totally fine with misogyny. Have you seen how women are treated in the Bible? It's... not pretty. Christianity breeds a culture of "forgiveness" -- women should forgive men for treating them terribly. As long as men repent, as long as they say they are sorry for being caught, they can keep on treating women like garbage. All they have to do is repent, with words. Christianity is not doing feminism any favors.


Pretty sure that comment was being tongue in cheek, like "sure, it lets them be horrible people but only to one woman at a time, instead of every damn woman in their reach."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:14 AM on January 22, 2016 [4 favorites]


I really enjoyed this comment on the article (just saying that feels like I've violated the time-space continuum):
See, this is what's confusing to me - this guy had what guys all say they want. He had lots of women who wanted to have sex with him casually, who didn't care if he saw other people, etc. He had no relationship pressure, he had no trouble meeting additional partners. That's supposed to be the dream, right?

I would have a lot more patience with dudes if they, you know, had some gratitude instead of getting mean. You'd think that a guy who had what he wanted (plus a popular and successful business!) would have a good attitude towards women.

This kind of thing, frankly, is what convinces me of feminism - because for a lot of men, it seems like even when they get what they say they want, they still hate women. (Also, seriously, when I get what I want, I actually enjoy it - this makes me wonder if these dudes even _know_ what they want, because it sure isn't making them happy.) It's like, if you can't even be nice when you have everything, then there's something wrong with you and your outlook on the world, you know?
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:14 AM on January 22, 2016 [123 favorites]


Something tells me Jared will join the ministry soon and plant a church in a gentrifying town in the south, surrounding himself with the young attractive hipster Christians that are so plentiful here. It will have an awesome coffee shop and impeccable style and you won't know it's run by a church until you notice that the hipsters are talking about the Bible and the wi-fi sucks. Jared will write a memoir.

Man, the article is bad enough but adding this description literally sent a chill down my spine. It's cold here, sure, but I still can't shake it off a few minutes later every time I get to "memoir."

That said, I found this article very well-balanced in that it made Jared seem not as much of a horrible cartoon as he could have been. But no matter how much backstory and sugar coating the author provides, there is absolutely no escaping from the "Nobody reached out to us to say, ‘What do you need to heal, to be better" hole. Because seriously, fuck that guy forever. At least before he was offering mediocre dick-loving to somebody for putting up with him.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:14 AM on January 22, 2016 [2 favorites]


Article NSF any woman who has or may decide to practice heterosexuality.

The firmest evidence I can think of that sexuality is fixed to at least to some degree is the fact that many women persist in partnering with men when so many of them are some version of these asshats.

One of the subtler virtues of evangelical Christianity's disapproval of multiple partners and sex in general is that it tends to keep a lot of misogyny like Jared's bottled up and harmful to relatively fewer women.

I think you seriously underestimate evangelical Christianity's tolerance of hypocrisy and love of redemption narratives.
posted by tobascodagama at 11:17 AM on January 22, 2016 [14 favorites]


The disappointing thing about this for me (aside from the obvious, let me clarify) is that this guy makes so much noise about being a philosophy major, he portrays majoring in philosophy as central to his identity, and yet he never seems to have applied any critical thinking to anything about this situation. It doesn't reflect well for the philosophy faculty at his alma mater.
posted by kevinbelt at 11:18 AM on January 22, 2016 [20 favorites]


"I have an ecstatic-dance practice in this town. I contra-dance in this town."

I laughed out loud at this for several minutes.
posted by staggering termagant at 11:19 AM on January 22, 2016 [38 favorites]


Samizdata: "symbioid: "The Whelk: "what the fuck is wrong with men"

They don't move the glass away from the sink.
"

Wait... WHAT?
"

Referencing This MeFi post a couple entries down...
posted by symbioid at 11:24 AM on January 22, 2016 [2 favorites]


See, this is what's confusing to me - this guy had what guys all say they want. He had lots of women who wanted to have sex with him casually, who didn't care if he saw other people, etc. He had no relationship pressure, he had no trouble meeting additional partners. That's supposed to be the dream, right?

You read these "manosphere" forums and the shit guys are saying in them, and it's clear that having lots of NSA sexytimes with women isn't actually the dream. The dream is receiving admiration and status and acknowledgement of superiority from other men, and the manosphere is a simple mechanism for converting a plentiful resource (your own misogyny) into the thing you want (the recognition and approval of other males).
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:24 AM on January 22, 2016 [113 favorites]


No. Christianity is totally fine with misogyny. Have you seen how women are treated in the Bible? It's... not pretty. Christianity breeds a culture of "forgiveness" -- women should forgive men for treating them terribly.

The way that the evangelical church treats women (chattel, good at baking) is actually the opposite of what the Bible says about women, aka, "women are self-sufficient people whose value has nothing to do with their marital status, and the church is supposed to be a place of radical gender equality".

But I digress, and anyway, Jared clearly grew up more on the Duggar-side of the theological spectrum.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 11:25 AM on January 22, 2016 [11 favorites]


Something is obviously going on to make such broad swathes of Western men so toxic towards women, but what?

Patriarchy?
posted by maxsparber at 11:26 AM on January 22, 2016 [43 favorites]


This kind of thing, frankly, is what convinces me of feminism - because for a lot of men, it seems like even when they get what they say they want, they still hate women. (Also, seriously, when I get what I want, I actually enjoy it - this makes me wonder if these dudes even _know_ what they want, because it sure isn't making them happy.) It's like, if you can't even be nice when you have everything, then there's something wrong with you and your outlook on the world, you know?

This is spot on. Every dude I've ever encountered who is big into PUA shit seems to tell themselves that what they want is Women, All The Women. But to any outside observer it seems pretty clear that what they really want is certainty and answers and never, ever to feel small or inadequate in any way. They're vulnerable to anything that offers those glorious rewards--not surprising to me AT ALL that so many of them have evangelical backgrounds.

When they fail to acquire these completely impossible things through the sexing of multiple ladies, some people come to a realization that "oh, it's because these uncomfortable feelings are the human condition, I see." Others just believe it's because "those stupid awful women didn't do their JOB."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:29 AM on January 22, 2016 [97 favorites]


They don't move the glass away from the sink.

Well why didn't you just fucking tell me that before!? (*twenty-five minutes of yelling, banging pots*)
posted by atoxyl at 11:36 AM on January 22, 2016 [9 favorites]


I think I like Trey (as presented in the article) in theory. It's cool to think of communal forgiveness as a thing that's actively pursued.

But the thing that bothers me about Trey (again, as presented in the article) is that Jared and Jacob only pursued forgiveness as a means to absolution, and moving on to make their lives easier. It's that weird kind of apology that's contingent on the other party to get the feel good vibes started.

In my experience, anyway, true forgiveness and healing don't start until the offending party says, "I fucked up and I am sorry," and takes their deserved licks. Jared and Jacob and Trey, it seems, want the forgiveness without any of the work.
posted by Tevin at 11:38 AM on January 22, 2016 [13 favorites]


Also, it's quite possible to fuck up sufficiently within a particular context (a job, a relationship, a community) that you can never adequately repair your position within it and have to start over. Like, Asheville doesn't owe it to these particular assholes to forgive and forget and let them be business-owners and sex-havers there.
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:42 AM on January 22, 2016 [48 favorites]


Yeah, totally. Part of accepting responsibility and honestly seeking forgiveness is accepting that you may have broken trust so severely that it can never be regained again. If you're only doing it to get back in with the whoever you hurt, well ... try again.
posted by Tevin at 11:45 AM on January 22, 2016 [12 favorites]


because for a lot of men, it seems like even when they get what they say they want, they still hate women. (Also, seriously, when I get what I want, I actually enjoy it - this makes me wonder if these dudes even _know_ what they want, because it sure isn't making them happy.)

my husband and i have been having conversations lately about how under the hetero-patriarchy men aren't actually supposed to enjoy sex. they're supposed to seek it out, and collect partners, and know how to do all the stuff, and conquer their partners, and have rock hard 9in dicks and ejaculate like a firehose and last all night - but they can't feel good while it's happening. i've seen long conversations between men about how if a man moans during sex or gets head in a certain position or wants his balls played with or a million other pleasure things that he's being too feminine and he should just go gay. it's really baffling and sad.
posted by nadawi at 11:45 AM on January 22, 2016 [59 favorites]


Some Ashevillians took a boys-will-be-boys attitude, arguing that Jared and Jacob were just talking the way men talk when women aren’t around.

Shitty, fucked up men, yes. Who should stop doing that.


I totally understand the impulse that a lot of men will have in terms of wanting to explicitly distance themselves from men like the owners of Waking Life Espresso, where men like them are shitty and fucked up and basically totally unlike men like us. But it's of a piece with dudes who act like boys and men who engage in sexual harassment, assault, and violation are plainly monsters or otherwise easily discernible from "regular" men -- they aren't.

All of this behavior exists on a spectrum, but in a lot of cases, the way these particular men speak about women really is the way many, many, MANY other perfectly normal-seeming men can and do talk when women aren't around... hell, sometimes they even do it when we are around. A guy will be like, "It's so awesome that you're not like OTHER women. You're so laid back and chill, OTHER women are so uptight. You're a cool girl." And hey, after a while of having it shoved in your face that acquiring male approval really is the most advantageous route for you to take as a woman trying to navigate the world, which is how we wind up with patriarchal bargaining, maybe you decide to bite your tongue when he calls some OTHER woman a dirty slut because he tried to chat her up and she went home with someone else. (God knows men do this all the time, but they aren't made to feel like traitors to their own sex when their questionable silence gets called out.)

This kind of shit absolutely does come from the mouths of men who call themselves feminists, men who genuinely love their daughters and wives and mothers and girlfriends and best friends and sisters. Men who donate to Planned Parenthood, men who vote and volunteer for female political candidates, men who by all other accounts could be reasonably considered "progressive." Normal, everyday men. And according to some of the women who were involved with them, the Waking Life guys didn't tend to be ostentatiously disrespectful in person: "They seemed most troubled by just how fine [Rutledge] had been to date. 'I really liked him,' said W. 'And that's what makes me feel so gullible.'" So yeah, they should stop doing that, but no, they aren't particularly or unusually shitty or fucked up. I still want to strap them to a rocket filled with other assorted garbage and aim it at the sun, but they are utterly, painfully pedestrian nonetheless.

Anyway, everyone who hasn't already should read the referenced statement from Our VOICE, the sexual assault counseling center that refused Rutledge and Owens' grossly self-serving offer of what seemed an awful lot like hush money. "We will not be taking their money because it is not our place to forgive. Our VOICE is not in a position of absolving them for their misogyny as it perpetuates a culture of danger to all women and girls."
posted by amnesia and magnets at 11:48 AM on January 22, 2016 [65 favorites]


I totally understand the impulse that a lot of men will have in terms of wanting to explicitly distance themselves from men like the owners of Waking Life Espresso,

I miscommunicated. My intention was not to distance myself from that behavior, but to suggest that it should not be seen as normal and therefore forgivable.
posted by maxsparber at 11:54 AM on January 22, 2016 [2 favorites]


Horrible mysogynists fail to notice that they are thinking out loud, deeply shocked that no one (and especially no women) wants anything to do with them. They are practically characters from the Venture Bros.
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:05 PM on January 22, 2016 [4 favorites]


"“If you’re going to say you’re a loving, supportive community and then just kick out everybody that does something fucked up — I think that’s wrong,” Jared told me. “You don’t get to say, ‘We’re loving and supportive and inclusive’ and not put in the work to be that. ”"

I'm so glad this was brought up because this attitude is exactly what made me start dissociating from hippie/counterculture/"ACCEPTING" communities where guys like this were thriving. I have an abusive ex who got to keep all the friends from the hippie grocery store because well, duh, they all were so ACCEPTING and of course we have to forgive and give chances.

What drew me to these communities is what drew me away. I do want to accept and love everyone, and I want to make accommodations for all kinds of disabilities and I EVEN want to include ways to make it safe for people with personality disorders or seriously dangerous behavior to socialize be it from a prison cell or in ways that keep vulnerable people safe somehow. I just think when the risks include predatory cruel behavior that creating protective buffers around kind people and not inviting these predators in as welcome anchecked parts of the community is a shift I feel like I would like to see happen in "accepting" communities.

I do want there to be a way to help even really messed up people. I do actually feel for them, even as I'm not entirely sure they can actually feel for the people around them. But I feel for the people they hurt and don't care about more. I want them to be lifted up and protected as the first order of business for the community, and finding a way to support dangerous people with really hurtful beliefs and behaviors false in after this is achieved and if it can be safely.

I think about it a lot having had to hang out with past abusers in social settings and how weird it is that I had experienced sexual abuse that many people knew about and it didn't change anything. I would still have to run into them and act like everything is cool and see people I care about hanging out with them. I'm proud of the people in this town. So proud.
posted by xarnop at 12:10 PM on January 22, 2016 [54 favorites]


On the forgiveness/redemption thing, from the article:
“If you’re going to say you’re a loving, supportive community and then just kick out everybody that does something fucked up — I think that’s wrong,” Jared told me. “You don’t get to say, ‘We’re loving and supportive and inclusive’ and not put in the work to be that. ”

I love the entitlement there, how if you crap all over a supportive community, why are they not *supportive* of you anymore? If you shit all over their ideals, why are they not demonstrating those ideals toward you? I love how his classically abusive mentality demands forgiveness (especially as "inclusiveness"- as in 'we include abusers, too'), instead of doing what any other sensible person would do, which is to get out of town. Abusive people think they can piss in their own fishbowl and not swim in their own piss, probably because somewhere along the line in their family, someone let them do that, someone let them off the hook and called it good old-fashioned Christian forgiveness. (Which of course, we extra-empathetic women are *cough* evolved to be so good at)

The comment about him starting anew in a Christian community was on target- that's kind of what's left for him now. Only a narcissist like him would not see that he's painted himself into a corner and blame everyone else for his self-inflicted misery.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 12:10 PM on January 22, 2016 [25 favorites]


I think what is most striking about this dude is that he doesn't think he was wrong. He says that he knows he was wrong because it hurt people, but he hasn't changed his mind about any of it. He views his failing as having made his beliefs public, not in having them.

It scares the fucking shit out of me every time i think about it, but this is exactly how my former friend from high school thinks.

And then i found out he raped one of my friends, and possibly others. And when he found out i found out he apologized for violating my trust(in a really creepy way where he cornered me!) and gave a weird non-apology about his behavior that sounded a lot like this crap.

At the risk of sounding slanderous, i would be utterly, extremely unsurprised if it turns out this guy had raped someone.

I've met other guys who talked like this, in this non apology way, about their relationships with and relations to women who turned out to be boundary crashing guys i wouldn't trust who had made multiple women uncomfortable at best, and just outright rapists at worse.

I guess i'm just saying the way he talks about what he did scares the shit out of me and is ringing every alarm bell i have on the "creepy molester dude" control panel.
posted by emptythought at 12:10 PM on January 22, 2016 [17 favorites]


Whenever I read "Manosphere" it looks like "Manos-phere" and then Torgo gets involved and it gets weird. Well, weirder.
posted by damo at 12:12 PM on January 22, 2016 [17 favorites]


Horrible mysogynists fail to notice that they are thinking out loud, deeply shocked that no one (and especially no women) wants anything to do with them.

One of the scary things is that they were able to effectively simulate being nice and respectful to women well enough that women were actually attracted to them. If they had behaved as assholes outwardly, all the time, then this never would have happened and it would not have made news.
posted by theorique at 12:13 PM on January 22, 2016 [8 favorites]


a fiendish thingy: "I really enjoyed this comment on the article"

Holy cow. I think that quoted comment is making me realize why these manosphere/dark enlightenment/alt-right assholes think that feminism equals man-hating -- it's because they themselves genuinely hate women.
posted by mhum at 12:13 PM on January 22, 2016 [12 favorites]


oh goodness, xarnop beat me to it by seconds!
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 12:18 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]


Metafilter: Fucksocks against misogyny.
posted by grimjeer at 12:32 PM on January 22, 2016 [7 favorites]


I'm on your side witchen!!! I'm so sorry you've dealt with this. Thanks for speaking up.
posted by xarnop at 12:33 PM on January 22, 2016 [7 favorites]


I'm so glad this was brought up because this attitude is exactly what made me start dissociating from hippie/counterculture/"ACCEPTING" communities where guys like this were thriving.

Trey Crispin struck me as pretty toxic as well. His schtick sounds good in theory: offer forgiveness, discourage anger, have the community solve problems together. Who could be against that? But in practice that means... men expect forgiveness, angry women need to shut up, and all the benefits of misbehavior go to one person while the community bears the costs. A perfect environment for bad actors.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 12:37 PM on January 22, 2016 [56 favorites]


I've often wondered if I am befriended by men like this from time to time. (In short, predators who act like good liberal guys in order to gain power over women, often sexually). They aren't pursuing me, but I am useful in their gaining the trust of another woman. They have a particular approach, they're overly friendly and they are, for a short period, tenacious. The queer female is a good prop, although this would be for a Trey over a less sophisticated Jared.

Let me be clear that I don't feel this way about 99% of male friends and let me be clear I'm not saying this out of insecurity or cynicalness. It's just really quite obvious. Maybe in the PUA playbook, but I'm not going to check.
posted by theefixedstars at 12:39 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]


I do want there to be a way to help even really messed up people. I do actually feel for them, even as I'm not entirely sure they can actually feel for the people around them.

Yes this is the eternal problem; how to create space for people to change without enabling more abusive behavior. Especially because it becomes a matter that now the abusive people know what not to say, how to present themselves differently...now do they just become more skillful manipulators?
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 12:44 PM on January 22, 2016 [13 favorites]


apologies as...100% posturing and PR work

That sounds about right. Thanks witchen for verifying what us skeptics suspect with people like this.

And I have totally been 'befriended' by 'sensitive guys'. It's a problem, because I'm an Elaine-from-Seinfield type of women who hangs with guys a lot. Once you catch them in the act of being a jerk, they show their real sensitivity- which is for their own feelings, but not anyone else's. They seem to miss that half of the 'sensitivity' shtick and think that trolling for pity is really not the same thing as being sensitive.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 12:49 PM on January 22, 2016 [6 favorites]




here are a few places he still feels safe: weekly lunches with his grandma, his therapist’s office, the meetings of his peer-facilitated men’s support circle.

Too bad. I'll bet his support circle was chosen because they're agreeable dicks just like him, his therapist obviously isn't helping. And it's a shame grandma doesn't kick his ass!
posted by BlueHorse at 12:53 PM on January 22, 2016 [3 favorites]


Sometimes when I read stuff like this I have to go hug my kiddo, who I am trying really hard to raise to be a decent person. I think he is/will be. I don't think he'll fall for this stuff, or treat a woman this way. But what if his friends do? Or just guys he knows? I hope he'll know what to do, but I can't prepare him for every situation.

Staring into the "manosphere" feels like looking into the abyss.

I like nadawi's comment, too. Men under patriarchy can never enjoy themselves so much they are vulnerable (at least not with women they can't), because then they are not in control, not conquering. To be open and trusting and capable of being hurt is incompatible with being a "real man." Never mind that you can't ever make a real connection with any woman.

I say "woman" because I'm building on what someone said upthread, about all of this being about impressing other men. If you remove women from the category "human" you can't have relationships with them. That leaves you starved for relationships and connection, so you seek it out from men, in this case men who tell you that you must believe that women are not people in order to keep your relationships with them. And then you're in a sick spiral where you feel isolated but your only connection is with people who are bitter and angry, and you're also having to pretend that non-people are people to get what you want from them to keep your real relationships, and your bitterness increases, and so on.
posted by emjaybee at 1:03 PM on January 22, 2016 [23 favorites]


Article NSF any woman who has or may decide to practice heterosexuality.

That and the mention of one of the women no longer wanting to date at all are pretty much what I also feel.

I'm now certain I "dated" a PUA dude back in 2007. Rough background: met on OKC, he was listed as divorced and single, confirmed it when we met, looking for a serious, monogamous relationship but taking it slow (as was I), business owner, Reddit member. After six months of "dating", he told me he had another girlfriend. That he'd started dating a year before meeting me. And that he wanted to keep seeing me.

I broke up with him on the spot.

Almost immediately, another ex-girlfriend of his found me through my blog – I hadn't named him, but talked about him, which she said was enough to tip her off to email me. She was right.

She told me he had an Excel file of his conquests, and that they were sprinkled throughout Europe. That she'd been in contact with him up until he met me – and that was when it came out that she hadn't just found me through my blog, but it had given her safe cover to sound me out for trustworthiness before dropping the bomb. He had told her about me, specifically. Told her that he'd enjoyed his casual conquests before – she was one of them, thus the continued contact – but now he wanted "the true girlfriend experience". With me. That was when she got disgusted, stopped speaking to him, and started worrying about me and reading my blog to judge whether she should/could warn me.

I don't know what the fuck is wrong with some men either. All the explanations about unhealthy masculinity are like, yeah, I grok them on an intellectual level. On an emotional level? It's not rocket science or world-shattering to see human beings as human beings. I mean it's REALLY NOT COMPLEX. This thing here is shared throughout all of humanity, for one.

And those noticing the scare quotes around dating – had dude been truthful with me about his partnered status, I never would have dated him. Informed consent was negated by his lies. He did not have a true girlfriend experience.
posted by fraula at 1:11 PM on January 22, 2016 [32 favorites]


I've been terrified my (almost ex)wife's going to get taken in by PUAs if she hasn't already. It's none of my business to a point. We're separated and she leads her own life now. But stories like this make me shudder at the thought of dating. I never really figured out how to do dating anyway. When I pursued women on purpose, my other guy friends would move in more quickly and then gloat about it, like it was a contest. Somehow I always ended up meeting and seeing people more organically, usually among friends that became lovers. The deliberate use of psychological/social manipulation angle to this stuff really unsettles me for some reason. Maybe because I tend to be a little susceptible to manipulation myself and know it.
posted by saulgoodman at 1:31 PM on January 22, 2016 [7 favorites]


I am just going to hug my dog until I don't want to punch these guys in the face anymore. It may be a while.
posted by corb at 1:38 PM on January 22, 2016 [12 favorites]


i've seen long conversations between men about how if a man moans during sex or gets head in a certain position or wants his balls played with or a million other pleasure things that he's being too feminine and he should just go gay.

And gay men often replicate that behavior and perform that persona when they want to be "straight-acting," or even when they don't, because they figure that's the way they're supposed to act to turn other other gay men who don't want someone effeminate, and gay porn is filled with that type of anti-pleasure, gruff-straight-man performance and it's supposed to be "hot," so ...... patriarchy is an all-around clusterfuck.
posted by blucevalo at 1:55 PM on January 22, 2016 [12 favorites]


No. Christianity is totally fine with misogyny. Have you seen how women are treated in the Bible? It's... not pretty. Christianity breeds a culture of "forgiveness" -- women should forgive men for treating them terribly.

Yuh-huh.
posted by Apocryphon at 3:40 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]


Can't wait for Trade & Lore coffee to open on the street where my store is. Maybe we can get them to offer a MeFi discount.
posted by rikschell at 3:41 PM on January 22, 2016


Trey Crispin struck me as pretty toxic as well. His schtick sounds good in theory: offer forgiveness, discourage anger, have the community solve problems together. Who could be against that? But in practice that means... men expect forgiveness, angry women need to shut up, and all the benefits of misbehavior go to one person while the community bears the costs. A perfect environment for bad actors.

One would think restitution to the victims should be part of redemption. Why isn't he urging that?
posted by Apocryphon at 3:43 PM on January 22, 2016 [4 favorites]


Let me be clear that I don't feel this way about 99% of male friends
Honestly, i think you've got one too many 9s there. The percentage of male friends who haven't tried to have a horrible PUA/MRA style conversation with me is close to single digits. I only think it's that high because my reputation sometimes precedes me. I would assume the vast majority of men reading this would have similarly small numbers. Now, do I think that means most men are in the same league as these pricks? not really, but from my experience it's the norm in frequency if not in strength. Rape culture, patriarchy, misogyny is insidious and the majority of men (me included) are saturated by it. I wish I had an answer but I don't think I have the tools or am unsullied enough to be able to contribute and all I can do is hope.
She told me he had an Excel file of his conquests
I'm not wishing to minimise or trivialise anything but what the fuck is it with these freaks and Excel? Like the more virulently misogynistic they are the more complex their spreadsheet tracking the number of women wearing skirts on their daily commute or whatever their particular flavour of fuckstickery is. It's weird.
posted by fullerine at 4:09 PM on January 22, 2016 [11 favorites]


About the wonderment that these guys aren't happy because they have everything they want: their bitterness and unhappiness is totally understandable to me. The founding principle of the red pill stuff is that men are victimized by women--this is of course the justification for dehumanizing women so completely.

What the poor addled dears don't seem to realize is that when they internalize this victim perspective, their own innate, inescapable sexual desire is the thing that makes them weak. It's the thing that drives them to have to engage at all with their terrible female overlords. Even though they approach sexual engagement in a spirit of contempt and vengeance, it's still fundamentally their own vulnerability in the form of sexual desire that goads them to do so. Of course they're going to get more and more unhappy, the more they open up their sexuality and follow their desires.

The red pill stuff is an automatic fail. The guys who buy into it aren't bright enough to get it.
posted by Sublimity at 4:24 PM on January 22, 2016 [13 favorites]


One night stand car keys in hand
You've fulfilled your gender's sexual demand
Are you feeling insecure and empty
When you're rushing to report it to your peers!?!?

A mind is a terrible thing to waste
You would gladly waste it just to save face


I would like to do everything in my power to dismantle the "manosphere" (what a dumb fucking word, I feel stupid just typing it). If there is a group of decent men out there devoted to that purpose, I'd like to be pointed in their direction. I'm sick of feeling alone and powerless in this.
posted by zchyrs at 4:27 PM on January 22, 2016 [2 favorites]


I appreciate the recurring theme in this thread of condemning this utter fuckery while also recognizing that it's a toxic, horrible, and in fact miserable cultural movement that comes from roots and forces that I can understand. It'd helped me to have a little more perspective on the MRA stuff as a messed-up societal artifact and self-reinforcing community that follows, like, the laws of the universe, rather than just as raw hate that scares and disgusts me on a visceral level. I think that also gives me hope that it can be contained and overcome, which the internet doesn't always remember. I mean, not that the patriarchy isn't all around us, but it's not necessary or human, just a shitty thing we have to fix. Abusive assholes will continue to be abusive assholes, but over time we can hopefully make people realize that they are.
posted by you're a kitty! at 4:28 PM on January 22, 2016 [6 favorites]


There needs to be a counter movement where girls get familiar with the pick up artist schtick and then turn it around on the guys before noping the fuck out.

relevant xkcd
posted by psycho-alchemy at 4:38 PM on January 22, 2016 [8 favorites]


Yay! I'm so happy to see this on the Blue. C is a friend of mine, and she is every bit as smart and brave and cool as she sounds.
posted by sleepy psychonaut at 4:42 PM on January 22, 2016 [8 favorites]


And gay men often replicate that behavior and perform that persona

oh absolutely. some of it that i've seen is ingrained self hate, some is that the patriarchy doesn't skip over men just because they're gay. i guess mostly i spoke about the hetero-patriarchy because i've had sex with more of those dudes so i felt more secure speaking about them. you raise great points.
posted by nadawi at 5:43 PM on January 22, 2016 [2 favorites]


Sublimity: "What the poor addled dears don't seem to realize is that when they internalize this victim perspective, their own innate, inescapable sexual desire is the thing that makes them weak. It's the thing that drives them to have to engage at all with their terrible female overlords."

Oh wow. I wonder if the Men Going Their Own Way crowd are the subset of red-pillers who have reached the same conclusion?
posted by mhum at 6:31 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's not rocket science or world-shattering to see human beings as human beings.

Honestly I don't think guys like this - obviously not the only variety of misogyny out there but I'm talking about guys on this end of these scale - give a fuck about that. I mean when I've read "red pill" narratives a lot of them are basically "I decided to stop caring what women want and now my life is better than ever." This is often justified either by a.) the assertion that men are routinely victimized by women or b.) the assertion that this is how women deep down want men to be. But I think really a lot of it is just "I've discovered that treating people as a means to me own ends can totally get me what I want! (at least in the short term)" The liberation of one's inner sociopath.
posted by atoxyl at 7:19 PM on January 22, 2016 [9 favorites]


All I can think of is some little kid on the verge of tears furiously telling his sister, "Thtop! You can't come in here! Girlth are not allowed in the MANOTHPHERE!"
Putting these guys on the same level as a little kid seems a little unfair. (To the little kid.)
posted by xedrik at 8:17 PM on January 22, 2016 [2 favorites]


way to ruin the manosphere
posted by klangklangston at 8:34 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]


a fiendish thingy: "I really enjoyed this comment on the article (just saying that feels like I've violated the time-space continuum):
See, this is what's confusing to me - this guy had what guys all say they want. He had lots of women who wanted to have sex with him casually, who didn't care if he saw other people, etc. He had no relationship pressure, he had no trouble meeting additional partners. That's supposed to be the dream, right?

I would have a lot more patience with dudes if they, you know, had some gratitude instead of getting mean. You'd think that a guy who had what he wanted (plus a popular and successful business!) would have a good attitude towards women.

This kind of thing, frankly, is what convinces me of feminism - because for a lot of men, it seems like even when they get what they say they want, they still hate women. (Also, seriously, when I get what I want, I actually enjoy it - this makes me wonder if these dudes even _know_ what they want, because it sure isn't making them happy.) It's like, if you can't even be nice when you have everything, then there's something wrong with you and your outlook on the world, you know?
"

looks confused Wait, I am supposed to hate women now? I don't HATE anyone, pretty much. Just about the time I think I have this all figured out...
posted by Samizdata at 8:59 PM on January 22, 2016


symbioid: "Samizdata: "symbioid: "The Whelk: "what the fuck is wrong with men"

They don't move the glass away from the sink.
"

Wait... WHAT?
"

Referencing This MeFi post a couple entries down...
"

Oh, aye. Cheers. Didn't read that other threads as I don't need to be reminded of my relationship failures while trapped in singlehood.
posted by Samizdata at 9:01 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]


One of the scary things is that they were able to effectively simulate being nice and respectful to women well enough that women were actually attracted to them.

A terrifyingly large percentage of the men you know are doing this at least to some degree. It's the fundamental courting dynamic under patriarchy. These guys are just the extreme on the continuum.
posted by praemunire at 9:02 PM on January 22, 2016 [6 favorites]


witchen: "I dated ("dated") Jared for six months and spoke to the writer for this article. I think she did a super good job, considering the material--particularly negging his generic gingham shirt and the fact that he and Jacob looked "feral, hunted," and smelled bad. That was delightful to read.

Obviously I'm too close to the story to be able to comment objectively, but I want to point out a few things unless anyone still believes these guys deserve or are ready for "redemption." In our local discourse and on Reddit it's a lot ~murkier~ how people perceive their innocence, and that is infuriating.

1) A lot of us are reconsidering what we thought were consensual encounters with him. In light of all this recent information, it's clear that he was taking out aggression in many different ways, even as far back as 2012-13.

2) Almost none of us have received personal apologies. All the Trey stuff and public forum and meetings back at the coffee shop (as if any of the affected would feel safe or comfortable there!) were 100% posturing and PR work. They even hired a PR firm to film the meetings (for what end product, I don't know).

3) I saw Jacob (the other one) at the movies last week with a woman. They are very much still here and still scheming.
"

But, apparently, they are no longer business owners. And, from the first link, I am unsure exactly what they learned from this experience.
posted by Samizdata at 9:07 PM on January 22, 2016 [1 favorite]


The dream is receiving admiration and status and acknowledgement of superiority from other men, and the manosphere is a simple mechanism for converting a plentiful resource (your own misogyny) into the thing you want (the recognition and approval of other males).

Isn't this the entire internet? What was birthed as a way to share information, has become this series of walled gardens with a focus on Recognition. Be it reddit's karma, Metafilter's favorites, or Facebook's likes, we live in an era of Recognition. And in these cultural ghettos (as in all ghettos) extreme viewpoints recieve the most recognition.

I mean, Trump.

The internet is amazing, important, and not going anywhere, so I don't propose any luddist solution, but I do think it's important to recognize that these red pill idiots exist because of the internet.

Capitalist society says "you must excel", internet says "find something, anything, we'll give you an audience" and mix in the historical patriarchy and you get: this shit.
posted by special agent conrad uno at 9:53 PM on January 22, 2016 [6 favorites]


I totally understand why Metafilter is different. That's why I'm here. I'm just saying, this community has similar mechanisms.
posted by special agent conrad uno at 9:55 PM on January 22, 2016


I'm someone who's been known to enjoy being called all kinds of filthy things in the bedroom, but just reading about men who really think of women as fucksocks made me feel utterly degraded. And that's just reading about it. It's scary to think of how many men hide such a deep core of misogyny behind an attractive facade.
posted by Neely O'Hara at 11:48 PM on January 22, 2016 [4 favorites]


I don't care what guys like this think anymore. All of the women who hooked up with him---these guys were pit stops to better men and better relationships, the kind of bratty guy that makes you appreciate real guys who have healthy egos and motivations and can connect/blow your mind, the real good guys you want to love forever. It's upsetting to figure out you had sex with someone who is a scumbag, but everybody makes sex mistakes. The women shouldn't feel ashamed for falling for it; if he were lovable or truly sexy, he wouldn't have to work so hard and lie so much to get laid. Because there are these gorgeous, sweet, beautiful guys who, you know, don't even have to work at it and put in that much effort. They're just genuinely attractive good men.

Guys like Rutledge, though, they have cheap "skills" and character, and they're are truly unlovable and desperate for control. And that kind of desperation is deeply unattractive. I can see why the women spent a night with him and moved on to better guys. He's never going to be able to truly connect with whoever he's with, so he's going to be damned to overfeeding his weird ego and suffer from the worst kind of loneliness and paranoia for the rest of his life. But he's brought it on himself so, shrug.
posted by discopolo at 1:06 AM on January 23, 2016 [9 favorites]


I am desperate for a community of men online critically examining masculinity and patriarchy and exploring ways to embrace one's masculinity in a constructive, positive way. Which is conscious of the gender hierarchy, the toxicity of the dominant construction of masculinity, the way the need to "win" makes everyone lose, including men. If we are suffering as men, confused and shamed by society that tells us we are the oppressors and that the expression of ourselves hurts others, who is there to tell us it's okay to be a man and there is a way forward that doesn't involve disowning your gender? So far, MRA and RedPill are filling this void. And until we can come up with something better they are going to continue to get a voice. There needs to be a manosphere. Men need somewhere to turn. But ugh.

This is a serious question, because I am this close to starting by own blog, and I want to know the context. I want this community to exist, I will build it myself if I have to but I feel it must be out there. I just searched for "Positive Masculinity" and the first hit was a blog called "The Rational Male" which is a Red Pill blog. Surely there is more than this? Does anyone know?


P.S. I thought "post-masculinity" might be a nice name for such a blog, but there is already a site called Post Masculine, and it is a 'rational self help for men' which has echoes of PUA. Sigh.
posted by PercussivePaul at 6:22 AM on January 23, 2016 [9 favorites]


Paul, there is the Good Men Project online, and also a group called the Mankind Project. Also I think a lot of personal growth communities work with this kind of dynamic. The Human Awareness Institute/HAI community I know is full of great men who get it--and also dudes who not so much, but at least are surrounded by people to compassionately work to nudge them in the right direction.

That said: get down with your bad self and write your own blog! The word needs a lot more voices of men who think that RP stuff is crap.
posted by Sublimity at 6:28 AM on January 23, 2016 [6 favorites]


Paul: I'd suggest taking a look at the work of Jackson Katz . I've found his work on anti-sexism from a man's perspective to be extremely valuable. His film Tough Guise In particular is a great look at how our culture creates and enforces toxic masculinity, and the damage that narrative causes.
posted by jacobian at 6:36 AM on January 23, 2016 [9 favorites]


A terrifyingly large percentage of the men you know are doing this at least to some degree. It's the fundamental courting dynamic under patriarchy. These guys are just the extreme on the continuum.

There's a lot of this going on in peoples' heads - not just men, but women too. By this, I mean the difference between "unfiltered private thoughts" and "communications with others". Anyone with a modicum of EQ needs to edit and shape the message of their thoughts for communication with others. And if you show me someone who has no private thoughts that they would be uncomfortable sharing with others, I'll show you someone who doesn't exist.

But then there's these guys. The polarization is so dramatic between their blogged thoughts (raw and sexist) and how they would have communicated with women in intimate ways (presumably in such a way that leads to mutually consensual sex). Such extreme compartmentalization and separation of "selves" probably induces a form of cognitive dissonance and confusion - which "identity" being presented is the "authentic" one?
posted by theorique at 6:43 AM on January 23, 2016 [9 favorites]


PercussivePaul-I'd be really proud of you if you did- I'm sure there are others out there, but what tends to happen is they aren't actually all that feminist to start containing a lot of problematic elements, then they get overtaken by the manosphere and good people get drowned out.
I think another issue is that there are a lot of debates within feminism, in group fighting is pretty common at a number of social justice communities and it really is exhausting, both the heinous attacks of actual PUA/MRA types and the constant infighting of people with largely good and understandable ideas but who each have their own personal issues that are most important to them and who get upset when they aren't represented or something isn't perfect by there standards which is totally different version of perfect to someone elses and it's just complicated and not easy to fight for "justice" and "equality" when even among those of us working toward these things we all have our blinders and ways that we ourselves represent toxic power to someone we've harmed and didn't realize or haven't been inclusive of. It's hard hard work and I like to think PRODUCTIVE work, even just organic conversations between people, that's work and it's hard and it takes courage and dealing with emotional damage and even physical damage to deal with all of it.

The monsters have changed and it's harder to understand what today's hero's face when they agree to take the leap into standing for justice, compassion, kindness, equality, charity for those in need, wisdom, understanding... etc etc. Many have been and are chewed up in the process, unable to see if their deeds have even made an impact-- but I think it has all been making an impact.

I've watched a few projects like the ones you speak and I'd like to hear of others- We Hunted the Mammoth by David Futrelle has been fantastic but it's more about actively seeking out and dismantling the manosphere than it is about examining ones self and building a positive ethical system in it's place for men to grapple with.

I mean, as much as I hate the state so many men are in and don't want to ignore their own role in becoming what they are- I will say the lack of male spaces where men can build up a concept of positive masculinity (for those who want it) to dissect gendered expectations and more importantly become who THEY want to be regardless of gender/masculine/feminine etc...

I think gender can be a useful construct to people and I don't think erasing it for those who want it will be helpful- I think for guys and gals (and whoever else) that wants to participate in these constructs it should be ok to want to identify with them, but to dismantle the aspects of gender that trap unwilling people and instead are in the service of each individual as constructs they can relate to, grow, or admire within themselves as others. I think the other issue is that toxic masculinity is most represented by guys who want a website called something like MAN SPACE or whatever you want to call it, like the kind of guy who wants to beef up his manliness has a certain set of goals in mine and they are usually of the more toxic variety.

HOWEVER when I say all this, I do feel like because I prefer feminine traits myself, I neglect some of the value of beefy warriors (male or female) aggressive, self and/or immediately family centered people who have actually played a role in keeping humanity alive and the desire to focus on these traits, disregard the disabled, focus on immediate family or just the self- these have likely been traits needed in various times and places. And really we ALL display some of these traits to someone, when it comes down to it if you have to choose between "I need this computer to do my work and it means some person is put through abusive circumstance for me" the majority of people who can are choosing themselves. Our clothes, our products- when we feel like we really NEED something (regardless of how true) we stop caring about others. We assume that we deserve to harm someone else to survive or thrive. The beast is in us. I would like there to be a place where the traits associated with masculinity aren't seen as innately bad but can be examined for usefulness and put toward the service of more compassionate ethical systems.
posted by xarnop at 7:55 AM on January 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


40 years ago, give or take, right after my ex (wisely and correctly) dumped my lame, drunk, angry, resentful ass,* I hit the singles bars for the first time. And got nowhere. I was an absolute zero. Zero. Zip. Zed. Nothing. Nada. Nowhere. "He's a real nowhere man" Etc. I had no idea what to do, what to say, how to do it, how to say it. A friend who had more experience than I had more luck than I, not that he was Lance Romance or whatever but he was not a *total* zero when talking with women, and reaching toward women, he even connected with a few of them, like, he even touched them and stuff.
*Which left me lamer, drunker, angrier, and more resentful, plus broken into forty-nine billion million shards of heartbroken nothing.

He and I went together to Ft. Lauderdale, spring break, though neither of us were Joe College; it just seemed A Good Idea, it would be warm, and beaches, and sunshine, and lots and lots of young people getting drunk and kicking it up. It was there that I saw the first instance of a man who absolutely had what these guys call "game." It was astonishing. He was astonishing. No, he couldn't have any woman (girls, really, I know now; these were college students for the most part) he couldn't have any woman but he damn sure could have a lot of them. He was utterly self-confident. He radiated confidence. He exuded confidence. It was something. Guy was from Boston, so he talked funny of course but it wasn't his fault, pretty much a toss of the dice that he didn't get born in Chicago so he could talk normally. He was real friendly to me in the maybe two hours we spoke -- I'd seen him in action and I stopped dead, transfixed -- and in that time we laughed about the Cubs and the Red Sox and whatever else, and he told me his trade secrets, such as they were. I doubt he'd read anything on it, what little there was to read about it then. Just that he was a guy who knew, instinctively, how to get his grubby paws on women. Beautiful women. Lots of them.

No way could I do what he did. But watching him, and talking to him, it sure did help me to understand that in order to learn to talk to women I'd just have to start by: Talking to women. No matter how clumsy I was. No matter how foolish and awkward and lame. Check it out: You cannot talk to women without talking to women. Seems simple, and it is, but it was damn sure not easy, and still isn't, mostly.

Aside from my ex, and a few prostitutes -- some streetwalkers, some in massage parlors -- I'd never been with anyone. My ex I met in the deans office in high school, and I was older than she and she chased me so hard -- how hard could that be for me? Not hard, that's how hard; I didn't learn anything other than how to be chased, and that's sure easy, and a lot of fun, too. And if you've a few bucks you can get with a prostitute, and even find caring people, if you're lucky -- I was, at least once.

So anyways, spring break is over now, we're back up in yankeeland. I watched what was happening in the bars I was in, I just sat back and watched. And I decided to wait, I decided to find the most cold-hearted, conniving woman I could, and then date her, and from her learn every way that a man could be shut down, shot down, treated with disdain, treated contemptuously; I wanted to learn from her so as to not be surprised if/when it turned up again with someone else, not be surprised plus have a counter prepared, if such was to be found.

I found her in a rock and roll bar, suburban Chicago; I bought her lots of drinks, got her phone number, and we dated, some, if you can call it dating -- a 70s singles bar sort of dating, with two lost, broken, drunken fools standing in for regular people, with each others phone number and some common interests. (Common interests: Drinking, drugging, rock and roll bars, and fucking, if she hadn't bailed out on me to take off with some other guy before we got to that point, after I'd bought dinner and drinks and various cover charges.) Every time she pulled another trick -- and oh man, did she ever have a bag of tricks! -- every time she pulled a new one on me I'd say (inwardly) "Ah, thank you -- I'd not have thought of that one. Thank you so much."

I'd guess we spent three months running 'round, maybe four. It wasn't all bad -- aside from being a good teacher she introduced me to Richard Brautigan (A Confederate General From Big Sur) which alone counts for one hell of a lot, plus on nights that she didn't cut and run we had lots of fun, and not just in the rack, either; young dumb drunks laughing sometimes, she had a nice pooch, too, and waking up and reading with a cup of coffee or whatever, some of those mornings were okay.

When I told her I'd been with some prostitutes she became quite animated, she's like "Really? Guys like you go to prostitutes?" It's possible that I opened an income stream for her.

But -- alas! All good things must come to an end! Bad things, also. Finally I figured that I was as ready as I was going to get under her tutelage, and time now to test my wings, out in the world.

I got to be a pretty fair player. You wonder why these people have such contempt: I can't speak for these other men, but for myself it was part/parcel of the facade of self-confidence which I projected, which I pretty much had to project; if you don't have anything but the mouth on your face and wide-awake eyes and the ground you're standing on, you've got to project self-confidence all to hell. A large piece of that confidence: I absolutely was ready to walk -- at any time, for any reason, or none at all, if I felt in the least taken for granted, taken advantage of, discounted or discredited in any way. Real or imagined. I had to get to where I just didn't give a rats ass -- and I did get there -- I had to get to where it didn't matter a damn either way if I got shot down. I'm like "Hey -- no problem." -- and a smile, my eyes still tight on their eyes, then turn and walk, head high. I found, to my amazement, that the cold-eyed cold-voiced cold-hearted readiness to walk that I learned to turn on in an instant is a powerful magnet, and it kept women interested, sometimes made them interested in the first place. That did in fact breed contempt.

As I did it for a while that projected self-confidence became self-confidence.* Another big surprise, that was. I found I could do this thing. I had competence. I became bold. As these kids say today -- I had game.
*Of a sort -- I know today it was pretty much bullshit but it was awfully convincing to me, then. Convincing to others, too. It was some pretty marketable bullshit.

I thought that this stuff would only really apply to women that I met in bars, such as my initial instructor that I wrote about a few paragraphs above, but I was absolutely wrong. I met some wonderful women. Absolutely wonderful women. One of these women, god, I really, really did miss out on -- she was remarkably lovely, and smart, and decent, and she cared about me. (She cared one hell of a lot more about me after she stood me up for a date, and I said "Oh, that's okay! No problem!" and then stood her up for the next date, which was a pretty big date of whatever sort, stood her up then looked her dead in the eye and lied through my teeth "No, really -- it slipped my mind, Myrtle. I'm so sorry!" I'd bet sixteen thousand dollars no one had ever stood her up before. She really paid attention after that night, she was watchful of herself, and she tended to watch my eyes closely.) She was a world-stopper but the winds of late autumn were coming on, strong and harsh and cold as ice, and I was absolutely not going to spend another winter in yankeeland if not seriously in someones arms, so I needed an answer from her pronto or I was moving to ...

Houston. Houston in 1977 was an amazing place. The entire time I lived in Houston -- late 77 to early 92 -- my age was the median age. Or average age, whatever, I don't know -- what I do know is that in those first years there the bars were packed, everybody was young, everybody was making money, everybody was drinking and drugging and running hard. What a town! What a blast! And, after having learned to play in the Chicago area, where you're all the time buying women these horses-ass drinks with fruit and leaves and whatever other kinds of jive floating around in them, women in Houston were perfectly happy to drink a beer with you, and/or slam a few shots of Jack Black, and they liked jeans and boots every bit as much as I do, and they pretty much wanted to grab my ass almost as much as I wanted to grab theirs.

Hurray!

All of which is to say that I found Houston to be pretty much a piece of cake.

See, but there was this bad part though -- even though Houston was pretty easy, and an awful lot of fun, I acted, in some cases -- not all but some -- with absolutely cruel intent. I hurt women. I wanted to hurt them, and I did hurt them. That mean part in me, it got along real well with that drunk part of me, and I was a total bastard, a real piece of shit to some women, and not by mistake. I was still hurting real bad behind that marriage, and blinded by the pain, and flailing, and too bad if I didn't really like you as much as I let on and you came close and had a soft heart that got torn by my being a slasher.

What I did was absolutely inexcusable. One women most particularly stands out, one woman most particularly follows me down the years, and I have no way of finding her, and no way of getting free of her, either. A wonderful person, gentle and sweet, she had beautiful blue eyes, she had a lovely smile, she sang like an angel. I see her as I type these words, and I hear her singing, so happy to spend time with me.

Even friends of mine who also were vile scumbags looked at me askance on that one.



Two things happened.

One: I'd awakened one morning, and was preparing to hack another notch onto my dick, and it happened that I looked over, and saw that the woman I'd been rolling around with was carving a notch onto her bed post. And I got it. It was sad. It was fucking pathetic. Two lonely, sad, pathetic, hung-over people in a bedroom, Levi's on the floor. I guess I was maybe 25 years old, maybe 24. I wasn't winning anything. It was so fucking hollow. I began to grow up.

Two: So I was pretty much done as a player. There was of course this woman, a beauty, lived in my apt complex. Her birthday was one day off my ex-wife's birthday, she was freckled-up, she was soft-skinned, and I bought her all kinds of presents for her birthday that I was actually buying for my ex for her birthday, and somehow, in all of this confusion and stupidity and vulnerability and smokin' hot sex I foolishly let this beauty slip-slide into my stupid heart. Which I'd not done, not in any of my playing, not in years -- no one got near, always I kept my heart on a lead.
Drinking and drugging sure helped wall things off, through those years. A little pointer for you there, should you decide you want to run and gun without ever exposing your heart -- hey, just drink and drug your way through!

I let this women in and it turned out of course that she didn't want to be there, at all, she was sport-fucking me, and I if anyone know the rules of engagement on that, just the birthday thing really fucked me over, and the freckles and her blue eyes, and of course the fact that I was still totally head over for my ex and trying to give to this woman what I was unable to give my my ex and on and on, all of the rest of it a big tangled jumble of confusion. I got creamed, like a dog run down on the freeway by a semi, and no way out, and she lived right there, next building over; I had by design and by my very own plan as a player the very best apartment in that complex, smack dab in the heart of it, right over the pool, and I saw everyone and everything and -- Whoops! -- everyone saw me, too, and they saw me writhing after getting hit by that semi, blood and guts on the highway and broken ribs and clavicles sticking out, and it was all in slo-mo, and instant replays from every angle, and those replays in slo-mo also, and all this in front of all of my friends and drinking buddies and on and on and on. Not her fault. She did nothing wrong. She was a fine woman, she did not intend to hurt me, and was sorry that it came down as it did for me.

But I got by far the worst pain I'd had since walking out of divorce court on that icy, rainy spring morning maybe four years prior. And no way out, any more than there was a way out of that icy-rainy-divorce-court-morning pain. I'm up there in that amazing apartment that I can't step out the door of anymore, I'm crying my eyes out, I'm clutching my guts, I'm up in there hurting like a bastard on fathers day.

I was fucked.

That was extraordinarily helpful.

I decided, in that heartache, in that pain, that I would never, ever, ever again put another human being in hurts. Life happens, and sometimes people get hurt, and nothing to be done for it. Breaking up is hard to do -- they even write songs about it, right? But if at all possible I will take the beating, if there is a beating to be taken and a way that I can take it, rather than the other party.

I am as cautious as I know how to be with another persons heart.

This shit hurts.

Never again.

No more playing.

This thing is not a game.

And all of this before I set down the bottle, and set down the rest of it. That's actually rather astonishing, still, to me: generally, people who are as big a piece of shit as I was and drank how I drank, they often -- mostly? -- they'll often not try to quit being such a big piece of shit until they are face to face with a mirror, and not a bottle to be seen. I lay thanks for my intent to change at the feet of Marcus Aurelius, who I was reading by this time -- his absolute decency, his insistence on finding then following your ideals. Ol' Marc, he's just the best. He's my man. I love Marc.



What did I get from those years I played? It did give me confidence, of a sort, I learned that I can have confidence, I can somehow find it even if I do not feel it at the first, not all the time but sometimes.

I learned how to speak with women, not always but sometimes. I found that some women even liked me, once I was able to meet them, and they were happy to hold my hand.

That big projected self-confidence bit, mostly I do what I can to keep that part of me turned "Off", because the contempt can sure come through with it if I'm asleep at the wheel, if I'm not wide awake and on the alert. And that projected self-confidence is after all a big fat fucking lie anyways, which means that if/when I turn it "On" I'm a big fat fucking liar, in that I'm not living on the outside any sort of what I'm experiencing inside. That whole "To Thine Own Self Be True" bit, hey, I'm not even in the neighborhood, not even in the same city, really.

Something else I got in that time, and glad that I got, and I hold to: I can turn on that cold piece, I can turn on a dime and walk out the door. In just lots of situations. Sometimes I forget, and I'll stand there drooling like a dope as someone or other stomps on me, but if/when I see what's up I am so out of there. "Adios, Muthafkr!" I sure like this, it's a great tool to have at hand.

Those of you writing upthread, wondering why players think that they're winning some trophy, you've got it right, at least in my case. Having never had any skills, when I learned some -- even though I learned them in perhaps the craziest fkn school I can now imagine -- it was really nice to walk with a woman, rather than without. That got out of hand, of course -- read what I've written -- jesus h. christ. And yes, I kept a tally, in my head, I never wrote it down or slapped it into a spreadsheet (either of those would be somewhat difficult in any case due to my having no idea what many of these peoples name are -- "Um, that one gal from that one night at Gilley's" is awkward at best) but in a pissing contest with another moron I could call it out my trophy cabinet and wave it around.

I'm going to call it how it is -- it is fun to fuck people. I mean -- duh. Obvious, right? But had I not ever learned what I did by forcing myself "out there" I would have at best been with a very few women. For all we know I'd never even *talked* to any other women, other than perhaps some more prostitutes. I gotta say, I've enjoyed putting my hands on people, I've enjoyed people putting their hands on me. I'm extremely grateful that I've had this in my life. Some of these people I have even loved, and some of them have even loved me. Can you believe that shit? I'm grateful.

Had my life been what I absolutely wanted, and absolutely hoped for, and held out for, I'd have touched just one woman. Ever. That's what I wanted. Then ... It didn't turn out how I thought. How I hoped. How I expected. We have these ideas, these ideals, these conceptions, these plans. Then life takes its turn and everything gets mixed up and twirled.

Maybe that didn't happen for you but it damn sure did for me...



Today. Two of my four best friends are women. (I have *four* best friends -- I love that part.) Tina and I have been as close as I know how to be with a person, and for over thirty years; we wanted desperately to fuck when we met -- Tina is 6'1" and legs up to here, we wore the same size Levi's, I guess you could say I got into her pants, because I have, just not exactly how I really wanted -- but sanity came from somewhere, and we kept our hands off of each other, thus we're tight as two bugs in a rug all these years. I love Tina. Alison a relative newcomer to my group of best friends; I met her in I think 1987, at The Kerrville Folk Music Festival. Alison will tell you that the first words I ever said to her was "Hey, will you marry me or something?" but you don't want to trust her on that one, really -- that's certainly not how *I* remember it. (As *I* recall, I was deep in a prayerful state, having meditated for over ten hours or some shit, and Alison -- For no reason! -- she comes over and starts kicking me and saying bad words, too. I spake unto her "Verily, be ye at peace -- in peace shalt thou find joy and stuff." but she just kept on kicking me and jumping up and down and screeching.) She says I'm confused. I still lived in Houston when I met her, and I saw her over a few years at Kerrville, and always we had fun, and always I thought of Alison when I thought of what type of person lives in Austin, and when I moved here I kept an eye out for her, ran into her at Barton Springs pool one summer afternoon and we've been hanging 'round together ever since. I love Alison.

Both of these women could read what you've read here and neither of them be surprised even one tiny whit -- we know one another. I sure love them and they sure love me. I am extraordinarily lucky in friendships.

Love, the other kind, I cannot seem to get a handle, always it is evasive, elusive, in my hands and then gone. Not my friends. In fact, both Tina and Alison have walked me through breakups, they've read letters I've written when waving various women goodbye over the years, to make sure I'm not putting any ego hooks in these letters -- if a letter gets past both Tina and Alison, I will guaran-fucking-tee you that it's clean, that it's clear, that any dickheadedness of mine is stripped out of it.


I have of course been through five hundred seventy four million, two hundred and ninety four thousand, eight hundred twenty two and a half hours of therapy. Lots of that with women therapists, probably most of it. It is -- in my opinion and in my experience -- a big fat waste of time to hold secrets if/when I'm in therapy. My cards are face up on the table in those rooms. If not, I'm fucking around, it's a waste of my time and theirs and my money, too. So I've told these women who I was, and how I became that way, I've tried to determine in these offices who I am, and to determine who I am trying to become, and how to get there. I'll never get there, but I have a sense of the direction to walk, sometimes I can walk in it.....

I hope you'll wish me luck.




In the years I've been on this site, I've sure seen the hatred toward players, and I damn sure was one, not that I was great but I played. Knowing the contempt and hatred felt for who I was and what I did, I've never written a word about it, not here. And I know the hatred on this site toward and for misogynists, and I damn sure was one, not the worst one but I was absolutely on the team. So I've kept my mouth shut here on this site, I've not written here about who I was and what I did, the women I've hurt, most particularly those I hurt with intent to do so. I expect crucifixion upon hitting "Post Comment" but it's relevant to this conversation it seems, and I've lied by omission here for a long goddamn time, hitting "Post Comment" will clear those lies a bit. If you're reading this, we can assume that I have felt it worth the price.
posted by dancestoblue at 8:32 PM on January 23, 2016 [11 favorites]


So... you think that's a good look, romanticizing your misogyny like that? Your redemption narrative is another variation of the PUA train wreck, you're just eroticizing regret instead of pride and asking others to validate it. It would perhaps be better (and demonstrate actual regret) to stop waxing poetic about your sordid past. When the subject comes up, simply tell young men that not being hateful to women is the first and last step instead of framing your history of treating women like shit as some kind of masculine odyssey that requires bottoming out in the most self-serving ways imaginable and treats basic civility as a holy grail.
posted by lefty lucky cat at 11:04 AM on January 24, 2016 [41 favorites]


I expect crucifixion upon hitting "Post Comment"

Sigh. No crucifixion here, just... a heavy sigh and a shaking of my head. Congrats, dude. You're a dime a dozen.
posted by palomar at 2:45 PM on January 24, 2016 [13 favorites]


and how they would have communicated with women in intimate ways (presumably in such a way that leads to mutually consensual sex).

Of course, a couple of women in TFA reported that discovering how he really felt made them reconsider how consensual it really was -- if one partner is basically lying about everything, how can the other agree to anything?
posted by GenjiandProust at 3:45 PM on January 24, 2016 [7 favorites]


Of course, a couple of women in TFA reported that discovering how he really felt made them reconsider how consensual it really was -- if one partner is basically lying about everything, how can the other agree to anything?

The way the men acted deceived the women into thinking one thing when another thing was actually true. The key word is "acted": this wasn't the first time that people lied or misrepresented themselves in order to seduce others and it won't be the last. I think it's pretty reasonable to assume that given perfect, complete information, most of the women involved would have chosen not to get involved with these guys.
posted by theorique at 3:00 AM on January 25, 2016


This thread got me wondering about the connection between Evangelical Christianity and PUA culture. I made an AskMe, and I'd love to hear more perspectives.
posted by clawsoon at 7:11 AM on January 27, 2016


Okay. I did it -- I started a blog. Positively Masculine. Thanks for the encouragement.
posted by PercussivePaul at 11:41 AM on January 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


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