Oregon Under Attack: And then there were four

January 30, 2016 5:44 PM

The FBI negotiated further with four armed occupants at a remote federal wildlife refuge in Oregon on Saturday while the holdouts in a video posted online expressed their mistrust of the government and reluctance to leave. (Mega) Previous.
posted by valkane (2646 comments total)

reluctance to leave

I DON"T WANNA GO TO BED. I'M NOT TIRED!!!!
posted by msalt at 5:51 PM on January 30, 2016 [26 favorites]

Amanda Preacher reports on how the next-door neighbors are faring: Landowners Inside FBI Perimeter: 'We’re Psychologically Exhausted'
posted by madamjujujive at 5:52 PM on January 30, 2016 [10 favorites]

Has anyone read Fry's google+ page? It's... interesting, to say the least.
posted by marienbad at 5:58 PM on January 30, 2016

He cleaned it up, it was worse.
posted by phoque at 6:00 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Amanda Preacher reports on how the next-door neighbors are faring: Landowners Inside FBI Perimeter: 'We’re Psychologically Exhausted'

I haven't listened to every minute of their reporting, but I've been consistently impressed with how OPB has reported on the entire set of events, with what feels like a lot of accuracy and tremendous respect for the people they are talking to, both locals and militants. The national reporting I have read and seen linked in the previous thread was not nearly of OPB's caliber, though the Guardian had some surprisingly good articles.

Having said that, it feels now like like the occupation has dwindled to a small group of whom a significant number appear to have mental health issues, and it is actively painful to watch it play out. There was a lot of joking in the last thread about someone's goofy suggestion to drop a bulletproof tarp on the fleeing trucks, but at this point I really wish there was some similar merciful way that the FBI and OSP could just end this now with no more violence.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:04 PM on January 30, 2016 [14 favorites]

Oh good lord, this melodramatic, pseudo-patriotic nonsense needs to end. Hit them with flash, concussion and CS grenades, hog-tie them, drop them in deep lock-up and let them disappear into the bowels of the federal justice system for the next decade or so. Then they might actually have something to complain about...
posted by jim in austin at 6:04 PM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

No, jim in austin, it needs to carry on, because Bundy and his acolytes are staying in jail while this goes on, and that is beautiful.
posted by marienbad at 6:07 PM on January 30, 2016 [14 favorites]

Also, I hope USFWS has a budget line item for meth remediation and cleanup, because from some of the early videos of the occupation, I'm pretty sure a few of the militants were tweaking.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:08 PM on January 30, 2016

>Hit them with flash, concussion and CS grenades

They have at least one tank of propane in their tent.
Have you not heard of the 1985 Philadelphia MOVE disaster
Or Waco?
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:09 PM on January 30, 2016 [12 favorites]

The Google+ was A Lot Worse. So much so that Ryan Payne wanted him out of the refuge.

What's gotten so fascinating about the situation (and why the previous thread was so enormous) is that one of the militants has been running live video these past few days, letting the whole world in on their current status and living conditions. Since Wednesday morning, the morning after the leaders were arrested and one prominent leader was shot down (under circumstances the followers believe to be murder but to many appeared fully justified), we have been watching their refusal to leave as they:

- Commandeer a CAT backhoe to dig trenches and barriers
- Set up a mini-tent city in the refuge
- Debate constitutional law with an assembly of negotiators, lawyers, Bundy's wife, and Nevada's Michelle Fiore herself
- Smoke bowls and run through countless cans of Coors Light
- Dance to horrid, smarmy country songs
- Snack
- Freak out at the appearance of drones and helicopters, loading up their guns and discussing strategy

Throughout the ordeal, they keep going for broke, demanding full amnesty for leaving.
posted by mochapickle at 6:10 PM on January 30, 2016 [16 favorites]

Surely there's some way that these assholes can be charged with the cleanup. It'd be extra nice if the costs ended up with them losing their land to pay it.
posted by the agents of KAOS at 6:11 PM on January 30, 2016 [26 favorites]

Oregon standoff: Bundy occupation leaves scars behind
posted by Artw at 6:11 PM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Also the previously link goes to Eybrows McGee's comment not the top of the thread, not sure if this is what you want or not, just letting you know.
posted by marienbad at 6:11 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

For many of us, watching new videos has completely replaced our normal viewing habits.
posted by mochapickle at 6:11 PM on January 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

Also, several of us are deeply concerned about the state of their current shelter, which looks like it's about to light on fire at any moment.
posted by mochapickle at 6:13 PM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

Thanks for noticing that marienbad! That was my bad! Also, hats off to the thelaze for starting the original thread!
posted by valkane at 6:14 PM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

ALSO, the remaining militants appear to be both reading and taking strategic direction from trolls on the YouTube feed.
posted by mochapickle at 6:16 PM on January 30, 2016 [7 favorites]

Defend Your Base response to Amon Bundy
posted by marienbad at 6:16 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Mod note: Fixed the link.
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 6:17 PM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

If they need a neutral third-party negotiator maybe Werner Herzog is available?
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:19 PM on January 30, 2016 [16 favorites]

Sean Anderson take on Ammon being held
posted by phoque at 6:20 PM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

This begs, begs for sound trucks playing All Your Base Are Belong To US nonstop.
posted by ocschwar at 6:21 PM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

If they need a neutral third-party negotiator maybe Werner Herzog is available?

What happened to the "common law judge" that was out there at one point? Maybe they'd trust one of their own esteemed scholars of moon law.

Although I guess that would require a moon judge willing to be in on the ruse.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:32 PM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

All the crap people mailed them; and not a small woodstove among it.

- I'd also like to hear them compare and contrast their situation and rights with the situation and rights of homeless/transients living in downtowns.
posted by buzzman at 6:32 PM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Anyone wondering or wanting to know more about the Freemen-on-the-Land (et al) movement, a friend sent me an Alberta judge's ruling in a divorce case where, in order to save future courts' time, the judge researches and debunks the movement's tactics. The judge calls them "Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Argument [“OPCA”] Litigants"

It's long and I'm not through it yet, but it's very interesting and instructive so far.

Court of Queen’s Bench of Alberta
Citation: Meads v. Meads, 2012 ABQB 571

Teeny exerpt:

[71] OPCA strategies as brought before this Court have proven disruptive, inflict unnecessary expenses on other parties, and are ultimately harmful to the persons who appear in court and attempt to invoke these vexatious strategies. Because of the nonsense they argue, OPCA litigants are invariably unsuccessful and their positions dismissed, typically without written reasons. Nevertheless, their litigation abuse continues. The growing volume of this kind of vexatious litigation is a reason why these Reasons suggest a strong response to curb this misconduct.

[72] Beyond that, these are little more than scams that abuse legal processes. As this Court now recognizes that these schemes are intended for that purpose, a strict approach is appropriate when the Court responds to persons who purposefully say they stand outside the rules and law, or who intend to abuse, disrupt, and ultimately break the legal processes that govern conduct in Canada. The persons who advance these schemes, and particularly those who market and sell these concepts as commercial products, are parasites that must be stopped.

posted by Trochanter at 6:38 PM on January 30, 2016 [49 favorites]

Surely there's some way that these assholes can be charged with the cleanup. It'd be extra nice if the costs ended up with them losing their land to pay it.

Cosigned. It looks like the charge all those arrested are facing so far carries a maximum sentence of only six years and that doesn't strike me as nearly enough time for the open sedition these jackasses attempted. The gentle touch taken with Cliven Bundy's ongoing tantrum directly enabled this latest destructive display. I was cheered to see that the Bundy brothers were denied bail, that's a good start. They wanted to start a civil war. The punishment needs to be severe.
posted by EatTheWeek at 6:39 PM on January 30, 2016 [18 favorites]

I can't imagine this lasting all that much longer. They must be very nearly running out of lube by now.

Crass snark aside, I do hope this resolves peacefully, and soon.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 6:40 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

>>be extra nice if the costs ended up with them losing their land to pay it.

I'm all for having them bear personal responsibility, but signs don't really point to the Final Four having any property to speak of. These are people terrified of the consequences of a traffic violation or a small drug charge. They are vulnerable. They're not rich. One of the central ironies of this event, and their whole ideology, is that once again the impressionable poor are left holding the bag for causes that originated in the best personal interests of rich property owners.
posted by Miko at 6:44 PM on January 30, 2016 [93 favorites]

One of the things that caused this mess is the war on drugs and a system that has a voracious appetite for demanding restitution from poor people.
posted by phoque at 6:45 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

EatTheWeak - I imagine they're still sorting out what they can reasonably expect to stick, charge-wise. I'd gotten the impression that they were certainly planning on adding more to the initial conspiracy charges.
posted by Archelaus at 6:46 PM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

They are vulnerable. They're not rich.

Just to be clear, it's the leadership I would want to see having to pay for repairs.

Archelaus - I hope so. I read they had to reach all the way back to civil war era law for that starter charge.
posted by EatTheWeek at 6:50 PM on January 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

Everyone charged got a court appointed attorney, except for Ammon who's lawyers set up a fundraising website to collect donations for his defense.
posted by phoque at 6:54 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

There's a rolling protest organized by the Idaho 3% and Pacific Patriot Network underway in Burns. Just try to count all the confederate flags.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:54 PM on January 30, 2016

Can someone please tweet Jeff about this rolling party? I think it could get him out of the refuge.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:57 PM on January 30, 2016

"We're free Americans," he said. "This isn't Nazi Germany. We don't need checkpoints. We don't need felony charges."

What absolute children.
posted by EatTheWeek at 6:57 PM on January 30, 2016 [31 favorites]

The lack of live video is making this reality show a non-starter. I mean, not that I care.
posted by valkane at 6:58 PM on January 30, 2016

For those just catching up: in the last thread, T. D. Strange posted some links from the Southern Poverty Law Center about the "sovereign citizen" self-designation and the movement it represents. I found these enlightening, but they came so late in the thread it seemed worth re-posting.
posted by Miko at 6:59 PM on January 30, 2016 [27 favorites]

I think a number of hard working, wildlife loving folks could help with cleanup. Homeless folks would benefit from all the donated leftovers. This is come springtime.
posted by Oyéah at 7:05 PM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

The thing that grinds my gears is that these last four people are so far removed from Bundy and what he really stood for, I mean, the feds should just decamp and let these poor souls wander off. And they can interview/arrest them at their leisure. I mean. Really.
posted by valkane at 7:05 PM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

The reasoning is interesting.
"We're just camping! No crimes here!"
"No, you're trespassing and one of you has a felony arrest warrent. Surrender."
"What would you say if we said we all wanted to go free and you can't arrest us?"
"Nope."

The entire sovereign citizen movement seems to be built on the idea that somebody can do whatever they want as long as they know the sekrit magical words that will cause the police to behave like the robots in I, Mudd when Spock told them that, "Logic is a pretty flower that smells bad." Almost all of their videos end up with them under arrest.

(That Southern Poverty Law Center link that Miko mentions is a must-read, the bit about redeeming your strawman corporate self to simultaneously evade all laws AND pick up the hidden thousands of dollars in trusts is jaw-dropping.)
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 7:06 PM on January 30, 2016 [11 favorites]

they can interview/arrest them at their leisure

Hadn't thought of that, but this is true. It does rest on an assumption that none of them will be violent, but it's an option for sure.
posted by Miko at 7:08 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

The people left at Malheur are pathetic, but they are dangerous. And they are armed. There's no way to just let them wander off.
posted by Nelson at 7:11 PM on January 30, 2016 [19 favorites]

The SPLC resources on this are most excellent.

It's really interesting to me that many of the former leaders of the movement have been arrested for fraud and were professional con men... I feel like it must have originally been a con where one would charge for "sovereign services" that moved on to speaking events- and somehow when the con men who were originally selling their snake oil got arrested, the game found a completely new life in a political home, where the leaders actually bought into it as well.
posted by MysticMCJ at 7:12 PM on January 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

the bit about redeeming your strawman corporate self to simultaneously evade all laws AND pick up the hidden thousands of dollars in trusts is jaw-dropping

Hence "moon law". Listening to their discussions last night, they really believe this shit. They're continually dumbfounded that the FBI continues to be present in Oregon at all, they don't recognize any semblance of the actual legal system as legitimate, like only they know the real truth and eventually some combination of legal sounding words or waving guns around will make the illegal FBI run away, or convince the sheriff to turn on the Feds, or inspire literally 100,000 people to come to their rescue en mass. These are things they discuss seriously, for hours, like other people who deal in reality might discuss their nephew's pending DUI.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:13 PM on January 30, 2016 [12 favorites]

It's stupid hippy shit, but what if they threw a war and nobody showed up? I mean, if the feds just left, the press would rush in, get their interviews, and then, what? They live in tents? Until they run out of money/food/heat?

I really doubt these guys would shoot a person who just showed up and said "I gotta clean this shit up."
posted by valkane at 7:14 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Has anyone been able to pin point exactly where they have set up their little tent camp on Google Earth? Are the near the main buildings or near the main entrance at Sodhouse Lane or near the observation tower?
posted by JackFlash at 7:15 PM on January 30, 2016

I really doubt these guys would shoot a person who just showed up and said "I gotta clean this shit up."

Would you stake your life on that?
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:16 PM on January 30, 2016 [6 favorites]

No, but someone else's.
posted by the bricabrac man at 7:17 PM on January 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

yeah. I would.
posted by valkane at 7:18 PM on January 30, 2016

I get why sovereign citizen logic exists (it's basically quack medicine reasoning applied to law), but it still throws me for a loop that they say the police and legal system are part of a corrupt conspiracy that's also completely controlled by the terms of the legal system they enforce.

The reason people hate crooked cops is that they ignore the policies and laws they're employed by society to enforce. So why would a cop really walk away in terror if a drunk driver said, "I do not consent! The constitution grants me the right to travel! Am I being detained?"

Then again, it gives them an easy out for their videos. If the cop decides they aren't worth the trouble, they "won," and if they get arrested or get a ticket, they just proved the NWO thugs are so corrupt they ignore their own rules.
posted by mccarty.tim at 7:18 PM on January 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

These people seem pathetic. Pathetic people can be dangerous, but I have a hard time feeling much other than pity for them.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:21 PM on January 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

My experience has been that people that won't clean up after themselves are more than willing to stand back when you offer to do it for them.

But maybe you miss my point. If all the guns outside go away, then what reason do they have for having a gun? If they have no fences, they can go back to their parents/campstore/hairdresser salon. And we can talk to them later.

It's the confrontation that makes it a key for violence, and the feds did pretty good so far. I hope they do as good going forward.
posted by valkane at 7:24 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Has anyone been able to pin point exactly where they have set up their little tent camp on Google Earth? Are the near the main buildings or near the main entrance at Sodhouse Lane or near the observation tower?

I'm not sure. I think they mentioned that they set up near a bridge, which would be just to the north. And that there was a farmer's field just to the west.
posted by mochapickle at 7:27 PM on January 30, 2016

They must be very nearly running out of lube by now.

Wow, over $1000 sent to some assholes* as a joke? Buy some water for Flint.

*Pun intended
posted by desjardins at 7:28 PM on January 30, 2016 [9 favorites]

get why sovereign citizen logic exists (it's basically quack medicine reasoning applied to law), but it still throws me for a loop that they say the police and legal system are part of a corrupt conspiracy that's also completely controlled by the terms of the legal system they enforce.

The judge in my link above (which I'm still reading) says that the whole thing is more about what he calls "the gurus" and their customers. So, it's not so much that they believe what they say, but that they've been coached by the people who sold the bill of goods to them to say it, as some sort of incantation.
posted by Trochanter at 7:28 PM on January 30, 2016 [7 favorites]

Incantation. That's awesome.
posted by valkane at 7:32 PM on January 30, 2016

I suspect one reason the final four are dragging on so long is that this is something the planners didn't anticipate. They got the leaders and most of the rest ran away as predicted, but there's no research that would have predicted this ragtag group of dead-enders staying and making such a futile stand. I think the Feds really don't know what to do with them. I think there is a hope that they can be brought in peacefully too, avoiding more casualties and bad PR. But the problem is these guys don't have any desires, other than getting away scot free, to appeal to. And I don't think the negotiators really have a plan to deal with that.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:33 PM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

nom yo ho ringe kyo
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 7:34 PM on January 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

Why I Do Not Support David Fry (from C4CF, spoiler; he is making Ammon and the movement look bad).
posted by phoque at 7:35 PM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Rattlesnakes are none too bright but I avoid them, and they are always armed.
These folks are desperate and I think if the roadblocks weren't up, there would be a second wave, or weekend warriors.

Burns is being held hostage by this. The rodeo is far from over. Damn the confederate flags, Idaho is like a retirement home and haven for white supremacists. It is full of the most amazing landscape, with a long history of rugged existentialism. Anyway, weekenders.
posted by Oyéah at 7:37 PM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think it might be better, from a logistics perspective, to let them stay a bit longer. Letting them go now means they'd just have to catch them later, and later their capture might pose a risk to innocent people due to allowing them to introduce a bunch of unknown circumstances (access to weapons, new territory, possible hostages, etc.)

For now, it's the safest route. There's probably some sort of expiration date on that but we haven't hit it yet.

David no longer seems quite so desperate/suicidal.

It's like waiting out a tantrum.
posted by mochapickle at 7:38 PM on January 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

Check out all the apocalyptic raving in the numerous 5-star reviews for LaVoy Finicum's self-published book, Only By Blood and Suffering.
posted by EatTheWeek at 7:46 PM on January 30, 2016

As a former smoker, I keep wondering how many cigarettes they have. Because when I was that addicted, lack of nicotine might be the single thing that would get me to give up on a political occupation project.
posted by Miko at 7:46 PM on January 30, 2016 [29 favorites]

The weather forecast for the Malheur refuge is predicted to be 19 at night and 32 in the day now through Wednesday. Snow starting tomorrow evening and continuing through to Tuesday.
I hope they like Valley Forge cosplay
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:49 PM on January 30, 2016 [16 favorites]

Miko I suspect the problem will be booze, meth, weed, and tobacco in about that order. No way they get to food or water being the problem.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:50 PM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

So much conflict. The more the Bundys throw Fry under the bus, the more I'm Team Snacklo Ren.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:52 PM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Actually, Tom, It's meth, tobacco, weed, booze. Or so a friend tells me.
posted by valkane at 7:53 PM on January 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

I would definitely put tobacco way above booze, and weed and meth not at all... but I may not be all that much like these guys.
posted by Miko at 7:54 PM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

But, I imagine you're an engineer. So you know better.
posted by valkane at 7:55 PM on January 30, 2016

The Evolution of the Patriot Sean speeches edited into short clip.
posted by phoque at 7:57 PM on January 30, 2016 [6 favorites]

Also, if you need another tab to reload, this fellow is determined to dance on All Your Base TV. Responded to the call from Sandy, he left Portland last night and is in Burns. He got stopped for speeding, then hit stop number two, but is undeterred as any good Church of Holy Herb member would be. He also made signs.
posted by phoque at 7:58 PM on January 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

So why would a cop really walk away in terror if a drunk driver said, "I do not consent! The constitution grants me the right to travel! Am I being detained?"

Actually "Am I being detained?" are somewhat close to magic words. Now, if you are actually committing a crime (eg: drunk driving) of any sort the police can rightfully answer "Yes, you are under arrest." But it's a direct question to the police to see if they are actually detaining you - if they are detaining you, they pretty much need a reason to do so. (Google 'border checkpoint refusal videos' for lots of weird fun evidence of this).

/amibeingdetained derail
posted by el io at 8:01 PM on January 30, 2016 [18 favorites]

I imagine you're an engineer.

I am about the opposite of that career path so I don't get what you mean if you were talking to me.

Actually "Am I being detained?" are somewhat close to magic words

Yeah, it's funny, I've read a few lefty-oriented scripts for what to do if pulled over, and in some cases they are not all that different right off the bat - things like knowing that you absolutely don't need to consent to search of your vehicle, etc. I think the key difference is that you're not denying the officer's authority on large, abstract grounds or asserting that you are a special kind of citizen, but understanding clearly where you are within the procedural map of actual lap.
posted by Miko at 8:04 PM on January 30, 2016 [9 favorites]

Why I Do Not Support David Fry (from C4CF, spoiler; he is making Ammon and the movement look bad).

That is amazing. I hope this becomes the basis for the next Will Ferrell Snobs vs Slobs movie. I love the idea that the four at the ranch were so thought ill of that they were pretty much ditched only to have that come back and stab the cool kids in the back. "When I called for all Patriots to come to Burns and join up I obviously did not mean this particular loser! Nay, friends, I meant losers that pretend to be Marines! Manly losers!"
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:05 PM on January 30, 2016 [16 favorites]

No, Miko, I know what you are. I have nothing but respect for you. I was talking about LocalTom.
posted by valkane at 8:07 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

That is amazing. I hope this becomes the basis for the next Will Ferrell Snobs vs Slobs movie.

Baby! It'll never work baby! It's all goofy sidekicks with a short fuse!
posted by Trochanter at 8:09 PM on January 30, 2016

Thanks for clarifying!

It kind of reminds me of survival-scenario games, but honest ones, that include drugs and people susceptible to the drugs. I remember doing one of those Army-type group-consensus games where a team has to pretend their plan has crashed, they're stranded in the desert, and they can only take X number of items - emergency blanket, water, protein bars, flare, etc. In the end, the gun and the case of whiskey were the two worst choices and all the teams that took them died. So this survivalist drama is sort of the inverse of that.
posted by Miko at 8:10 PM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

MetaFilter: I know what you are. I have nothing but respect for you.
posted by hippybear at 8:10 PM on January 30, 2016 [26 favorites]

I wonder if we're going to get an American version of Four Lions out of this.
posted by RakDaddy at 8:11 PM on January 30, 2016 [14 favorites]

I am not really an engineer, although I do play one with some verisimilitude, and having personal experience only with booze I will take others' advice on the precedence of the other motivators. I think we can agree that food and water come down pretty low on the list though, right?
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:11 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

food and water come down pretty low on the list though, right?

Water (or Gatorade, which they have lots of) rises if you run out of booze 'cause you'll get thirsty and the cottonmouth is a bitch. Food, too. I feel like it's kind of fun to consider the complex interactions of these things. If you stick to booze/water/Gatorade and tobacco, you can last as long as the cigs and liquids hold out and the need for food all but disappears for some time. If you add weed, there's going to be a hunger issue sooner. Meth, well, I don't know exactly what meth drives people to need.
posted by Miko at 8:13 PM on January 30, 2016

Baby! It'll never work baby! It's all goofy sidekicks with a short fuse!

It's Ferrell as the straight man. He's an uptight birder who seized his chance to see a rare triple crested mughorn. Now he has to rally this band of misfits and show them how to soar with dignity!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:14 PM on January 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

Meth, well, I don't know exactly what meth drives people to need.

Well having known one meth addict a bit too well I think I can say that meth drives you to need money and stolen property pretty hard, but that kind of supposes access to a dealer.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:15 PM on January 30, 2016 [6 favorites]

>Meth, well, I don't know exactly what meth drives people to need.
The need to occupy something apparently
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:15 PM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Meth, well, I don't know exactly what meth drives people to need.

Shitty techno, if my old upstairs neighbor is a reliable indicator.
posted by palomar at 8:15 PM on January 30, 2016 [20 favorites]

I don't know exactly what meth drives people to need.

a dentist.
posted by quonsar II: smock fishpants and the temple of foon at 8:18 PM on January 30, 2016 [20 favorites]

From the c4cf piece:
"That is true. But it isn't against the law to carry guns. At no point while Ammon was at the refuge did anyone aim their guns at people or make any threats. "

See, I knew that would be their weaselly story. That's why I said early on that the cops were going to have to go arrest somebody. Bring them to that decision point, where it would be unambiguous that they were threatening officers with firearms.

Which, admittedly would be a safety nightmare. But now they get to disingenuously say they just "had" firearms, they weren't "using" them or threatening anyone.
posted by ctmf at 8:18 PM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Bringer Tom: I think we can agree that food and water come down pretty low on the list though, right?

This time of year I suspect water is taken care of as long as they have fuel to melt snow.

Miko: Meth, well, I don't know exactly what meth drives people to need.

Stimulants tend to reduce the feeling of hunger and help a body mobilize fat reserves. But they also lead to overusing other reserves and hiding fatigue, until the person crashes hard. Meth is actually available as a prescription medicine for some things (narcolepsy, off the top of my head?) but the delivery and dosing is way different than recreational use.
posted by traveler_ at 8:19 PM on January 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

Meth, well, I don't know exactly what meth drives people to need.

New teeth.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:20 PM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

Do we actually know they have or were making meth? We've been joking about it but I'm not sure it has a real basis, but I might have just missed that part of the story.
posted by Miko at 8:21 PM on January 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

Meth, well, I don't know exactly what meth drives people to need.

More meth.
(Repurposed Robin Williams cocaine joke.)
posted by Trochanter at 8:22 PM on January 30, 2016 [13 favorites]

There's no evidence of meth. We should move on.
posted by mochapickle at 8:23 PM on January 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

Dope. Dope is first. Smokes are second. Liquor only comes into play if you don't have any kinda dope. But you want smokes. No matter what.

Meth and/or any kind of speed will keep you on target, and I noticed that the disassociated way the whole tent gang were talking it up when the drone cruised by felt very speedy. In fact, that whole night felt like they were doing the devils dandruff. But what is the point with this?

You guys can joke about teeth, but it ain't really like that. You're buying into a marketing thingy. As long as you brush....
posted by valkane at 8:23 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

"I do not consent! The constitution grants me the right to travel! Am I being detained?"

Well, one of those incantations is actually useful. Asking if you're being detained or arrested won't necessarily stop police from getting on your case, but it will induce police to either officially get on your case or give you permission to go. Given that there are rules governing detention and arrest which don't govern "just asking questions", forcing them to explicitly take a position at least changes and fixes the terms of the engagement.
posted by jackbishop at 8:27 PM on January 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

The sheer amount of time the final four have spent awake suggest non-depressive drug enhancement.

Not sure I should be possibly contradicting someone who knows my secret identity, though.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:28 PM on January 30, 2016

I was at a border checkpoint in southern Arizona once, when the ICE cop asked if he could search my car.

What the hell, I thought, I read about this on MetaFilter, I'll give it a shot. So I told him, "I don't consent to a search, but if you think you have probable cause then we can talk about it later in front of a judge."

"Well, what about if I sent a dog around your car? That wouldn't be searching the inside of your car," he countered, somewhat nonsensically.

"I don't consent to a search," I repeated.

"Have a nice day, sir." he said.

I drove on, unmolested. It did indeed feel as if I had learned a magical incantation. (n.b. I am a white male. I have no idea if this magic works for less privileged people, though I suspect it's a riskier proposition.)
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:29 PM on January 30, 2016 [54 favorites]

I'm not sure I get the power of the "Am I being detained" spell. If they just ignore the question, what do you do, start walking away? I think not.
posted by ctmf at 8:30 PM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

The most pernicious thing about the sovereign snake-oil scam is that there are legal incantations that do work, like "Am I being detained." But the sovereigns extend this reality into a fantasy dreamscape of Tolkieneske dimensions.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:30 PM on January 30, 2016 [7 favorites]

ctmf in a lot of situations what will happen is that you will actually walk away, because the only other possibility is that they will have to start an official chain of events that requires you to be advised of your rights and given access to an attorney before you answer any more questions.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:32 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

I haven't seen any journalistic accounts of drug use, but in some of the early videos some of the people were acting very tweakerish. The final four have enough problems already so I hope they are staying off the hard stuff.

I am reminded of how some of the Occupy camps struggled to figure out how to handle people moving in with mental and/or drug issues. Even when they shared a political stance there was still a serious cultural and communicative clash. The organizers of the malheur occupation were a lot more sophisticated than these four, and it must be incredibly frustrating to see them become the face of the protest.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:33 PM on January 30, 2016 [6 favorites]

The drone episode is this one.
posted by mochapickle at 8:33 PM on January 30, 2016

That wouldn't be searching the inside of your car," he countered

But if you consented to that, even though it's a freebie for them anyway, it would also be consent for any search. Such do the magical incantations work.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:34 PM on January 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

Right, but in real life you don't just walk away. They follow you, stand in your way, tell you to sit down (phrased as "would you mind" or "I need you to," not as an order) and keep peppering you with questions. In practice, you'd have to risk "fleeing" or being tackled, because they're not just going to say "uh, I guess not" and kick at the dirt despondently now that you know the magic words.
posted by ctmf at 8:36 PM on January 30, 2016 [7 favorites]

Around here they are all wearing body cams, which was a surprise to me when I was last pulled over. At least then you are on the record while asking about your rights.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:39 PM on January 30, 2016

I am a white male. I have no idea if this magic works for less privileged people, though I suspect it's a riskier proposition.)

When I watched the Sandra Bland video, I had the sense that she knew about this and was trying to assert her rights - that she didn't have to put out her cigarette, for instance, which she didn't.
posted by Miko at 8:41 PM on January 30, 2016 [17 favorites]

ctmf while that does happen and used to be standard for POC even the most conservative Federal courts will now piss on it hard if that kind of conduct gets to them. You will get local yokels pulling that shit especially on POC and sex workers but it's definitely not considered an OK thing in the justice system and while you don't have much recourse for it just happening, if it ends up as a key component to a conviction that shit might actually get overturned.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:41 PM on January 30, 2016

OK. So, like Waco and Ruby Ridge, the Republicans Radical Right are testing the waters for armed revolt against democracy. Like Clinton, Obama needed to respond and bring the anti-democracy insurrectionists to justice.

Unlike Clinton, Obama took his time. He had the FBI humiliate them by letting them do what they thought they wanted to do, with full access to the internet, exposing them for hateful frauds. Then the FBI, under his watch, according to plan, took out their entire leadership in one fell swoop that resulted in only one death, of a man on camera trying (and failing) to pull a gun on the police.

These bozos were played like a fiddle. We elected someone to be president. He is as bad-ass as advertised. Democracy works.

My prediction? Cliven's cattle will be all missing before spring, quietly and inexorably, and he'll be crying to Fox News about it. I hope the proceeds of their sale go to fund a new astronomer's PhD thesis.
posted by Slap*Happy at 8:42 PM on January 30, 2016 [37 favorites]

Sorry, still reading my Judge's document:

At the tax seminars most of the lecturers used aliases, as opposed to their real names. ... She did not regard this as suspicious or unusual, even though one of the lecturers went by the alias, “Sir Larry Loophole”.
posted by Trochanter at 8:44 PM on January 30, 2016 [7 favorites]

and it must be incredibly frustrating to see them become the face of the protest.

It's obvious their idea was to imitate the Occupy movement, but they did every single aspect of it wrong.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:46 PM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

ctmf, in theory they are then on much shakier legal ground should things escalate to the point where you have to sort it out in a courtroom. They aren't supposed to do shit like that, and they risk invalidating whatever evidence they might turn up in the process of harassing you. They also bring some liability onto themselves with that behavior. Granted the cop may decide that he or she will almost certainly be able to get away with it in a he-said-she-said situation (especially if you're a POC) but it creates more bother for them and they may decide it's not worth the trouble particularly if they were just sort of generally hassling you rather than trying to get you for something specific. Plus it lets them know that you know your rights and that you're not just going to crumble for them. If they have something specific in mind then they are more likely to say "yes, you're under arrest."
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 8:47 PM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

It's long and I'm not through it yet, but it's very interesting and instructive so far.

I've read this one for work. As far as Reasons go, it's pretty satisfying
posted by Hoopo at 8:48 PM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

and it must be incredibly frustrating to see them become the face of the protest.

It’s obvious their idea was to imitate the Occupy movement, but they did every single aspect of it wrong.

Why is this obvious? It’s not like armed seizure of land has no precedents…
posted by Going To Maine at 8:48 PM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Maine, I'm very sure Ammon's COOL IDEA was that if Occupy was able to be so successful, it would have been even better with GUNS. And it's not even like they were occupying some valuable place like the park in front of Wall Street, right, just some bird sanctuary. So who would even care?

(I am married to a birder and know how crazy that last bit is. But I do think it's what Ammon and co. were thinking.)
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:55 PM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's obvious their idea was to imitate the Occupy movement, but they did every single aspect of it wrong.

I saw an old high school chum who went right wing try to make #OccupyBLM a thing on her Facebook page.
posted by EatTheWeek at 9:04 PM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

Somewhere in all of this, I remember some folks didn't have the money to get home. Maybe that is a factor. Looking at Fry's video skills he has some Blair Witch sensibility. But I haven't watched or listened to him. But if he is a manic nut, no one will get sleep, everyone will be servicing his mania. This has become a dysfunctional family drama, and this is precisely why the fabulous four are a perfect echo of the Bundy clan. Oh yes, and this has to be the rub. I don't think the Bundys are all that extraordinary. They are just a magnified view of a type of religio-priveleged patriarchy you see in fringe areas of the west. There is a deliberate stunting of world view, the wagons are always circled, and father always knows best. Cliven has fourteen kids, they can't all get grazing area equal to Cliven's. Neither Ammo nor Ryan are ranchers. This is all theoretical.

As far as Blood and Suffering goes, someone will flinch, and discuss Finicum's zeal for death. Please, it is too pat, too contrived.
posted by Oyéah at 9:16 PM on January 30, 2016 [6 favorites]

religio-priveleged patriarchy

That's a good phrase. You nail the underlying dynamic of submission to patriarchal authority. It's not just the West either; it's in old Irish-Catholic families of the East Coast, Southern Baptist families of the Southeast. Social compliance to a particular assertion of authority expressed by the guy with the best claim to being the "smartest man in a small town."
posted by Miko at 9:20 PM on January 30, 2016 [12 favorites]

I wish America had someone like Chris Morris, who could make a version of Four Lions for the Oregon traitor set. Call it YeeHaw'd or Bird Brains or the like.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 9:23 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think the key difference is that you're not denying the officer's authority on large, abstract grounds or asserting that you are a special kind of citizen, but understanding clearly where you are within the procedural map of actual lap.

IIRC, the ACLU "Bust Card" distilled it down to its essence:

"Am I under arrest?"

"May I go now?"

Repeat.

Which pretty much puts the cop in a position where he needs to stop wasting your time UNOFFICIALLY fucking around with you and make a fucking decision if he's going to OFFICIALLY fuck around with you. Which might not have the desired outcome, but it'll move along faster.
posted by mikelieman at 9:30 PM on January 30, 2016 [22 favorites]

"In the land of the blind, the one eyed man is king."

Dennis Leary
posted by Oyéah at 9:39 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Police Officer: Do you know why I pulled you over today?
Me: Yes, I'm telepathic. Is that against the law?
posted by Oyéah at 9:41 PM on January 30, 2016 [12 favorites]

It’s obvious their idea was to imitate the Occupy movement, but they did every single aspect of it wrong.

Why is this obvious?

Because the right wing, in general, has spent the last, what, 50 years? copying and co-opting the language and concepts of the left. Bill O'Reilly has essentially made a career out of it. The civil rights movement convinced people of the need to protect the rights of an embattled minority, so conservative Christians and white males start claiming that they're an embattled minority, just for one example. The right-wing punditry approaches all the liberal/left-wing/social justice ideas and actions as just selfish splinter groups jockeying for power, so it's totally fair for white/male/rich/conservative folks to do it, too, using similar phrases.

The Fox News/Rush Limbaugh/Glenn Beck take on Occupy was that it was a buncha lazy bums who wanted more somethin' for the nothin' they were already doing, and they got treated with kid gloves by the filthy liberals in the Obama administration. It wouldn't take much for the "hard-working Real American Patriot" jackholes to come up with the clever idea that they could have their own "Occupy." They've been trained to think that way for years.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:45 PM on January 30, 2016 [50 favorites]

Somewhere in all of this, I remember some folks didn't have the money to get home. Maybe that is a factor.

My god that would be a hilarious defence to the judge. "but but but, mommy couldn't pick us up from the roller rink that night so we stayed for the next month and begged our friends to send us snacks and favorite us on facebook. Please ignore the guns and threats kthxbai"
posted by futz at 9:52 PM on January 30, 2016

My money's on Soderbergh directing, or at the very least, producing this.

[on edit: Hi, old thread crew! Hi, newcomers!]
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 9:53 PM on January 30, 2016

Mod note: Remember, the edit function is for typos and fixing links, not for adding or changing content. This is especially important in a fast-moving or contentious thread!
posted by Eyebrows McGee (staff) at 9:57 PM on January 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

I saw an old high school chum who went right wing try to make #OccupyBLM a thing on her Facebook page.

The most significant cultural accomplishment of Occupy was making “Occupy [Whatever]” into a thing. The “99% vs. 1%” rhetoric has also had some great staying power, but noting that someone referred to a particular protest with as “Occupy [Whatever]” doesn’t really suggest much of an inspiration to my mind. I mean, hell, the Tea Party actually got something done -regardless of how much of it was corporate funded or whatever- and was closer to home- so it would be a much more likely contributor.

Because the right wing, in general, has spent the last, what, 50 years? copying and co-opting the language and concepts of the left.

Noting a general trend of co-opting the left in the big picture as clear proof that a particular incident Y must have been inspired by prior thing X seems rather squiffy; I’d feel better saying that Black Lives Matter (on the left) had created an atmosphere of unrest in which they felt like their own protest could take place. But a direct tie between the two or their tactics seems seems weak.

The Fox News/Rush Limbaugh/Glenn Beck take on Occupy was that it was a buncha lazy bums who wanted more somethin' for the nothin' they were already doing, and they got treated with kid gloves by the filthy liberals in the Obama administration. It wouldn't take much for the "hard-working Real American Patriot" jackholes to come up with the clever idea that they could have their own "Occupy." They've been trained to think that way for years.

Or -again- the Tea Party, which was already portrayed as patriots, took guns to protests, and actually accomplished something meaningful politically.

All that said, the Montana Freemen stand-off and the concepts of Sovereign Citizens long predate the Occupy Movement, as did Ruby Ridge and Waco - and both of those incidents have gotten plenty of mentions this weekend. The notion of taking a stand against an oppressive and controlling government has long floated in these circles, with its own particular vernacular and trends. Just looking at this particular part of the downtrodden, wingnut right as co-opting the left honestly feels kind of insulting. Give them some credit for having their own mythos and lore in which all of this can functions.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:07 PM on January 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

I wonder if we're going to get an American version of Four Lions out of this.

My money’s on Soderbergh directing, or at the very least, producing this.

The Coen Brothers specialize in this particular kind of pointless madness.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:09 PM on January 30, 2016 [12 favorites]

I just had the sad thought that it will come to an argument or shooting happening among the four remaining folks at this point. Their rapid paranoia turning inwards combined with a lot of speed, booze, and firearms.
posted by mrzarquon at 10:11 PM on January 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

Unlike Clinton, Obama took his time.
posted by Slap*Happy

sorry, what?
posted by p3on at 10:11 PM on January 30, 2016

> Are the near the main buildings or near the main entrance at Sodhouse Lane or near the observation tower?

They are just below the main entrance. Here in this video Fry turns the camera to show the flag and you can see the tower.
posted by phoque at 10:12 PM on January 30, 2016

soundguy99: The right-wing punditry approaches all the liberal/left-wing/social justice ideas and actions as just selfish splinter groups jockeying for power, so it's totally fair for white/male/rich/conservative folks to do it, too, using similar phrases.

In fact while reading up on the history of the Montana Freemen standoff in Jordan back in 1996 (the modern Montana militia movement was well-represented at this Oregon refuge until everyone started running away) earlier today I ran across a gun enthusiast website where the discussion was on this standoff and the commenters were often coming right out and saying exactly that sort of thing. To be fair, they were talking about white, male, poor, conservative folks. But the strategizing about coopting Occupy and BLM terminology was open and blatant.
posted by traveler_ at 10:15 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

To be fair, they were talking about white, male, poor, conservative folks. But the strategizing about coopting Occupy and BLM terminology was open and blatant.

at this moment you might not consider yourself 'better' than those people, but unconsciously you do. the sooner you realize you think you're operating on a higher mental level than them the better. you're not smarter but you think you are. understand that you believe you're two-stepping them, and you'll be a level closer to understanding your own motivations.
posted by p3on at 10:19 PM on January 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

at this moment you might not consider yourself 'better' than those people, but unconsciously you do. the sooner you realize you think you're operating on a higher mental level than them the better.

Unconsciously? I mean, I believe these people are reasoning with the best information they’ve got. I also believe that that information is garbage. I’ve probably got a lot of garbage info too, but I think that I’ve got a bit less than anyone who gets involved with a sovereign citizen movement. (It was linked in the other thread -and surely before- but Rick Perlstein’s “The Long Con” remains a good read about a diet of misinformation.)
posted by Going To Maine at 10:25 PM on January 30, 2016 [12 favorites]

It's not math, Going To Maine - we don't have to make a direct "1 Occupy + 1 BLM = 1 Malheur" connection. It's a cultural trope, it's the air that we breathe, they've been steeped in the co-opting rhetoric their entire lives (the Bundys in Malheur being early 40's.) I'm not claiming that this particular incident was specifically inspired by another incident - I'm pointing out that it's all part of a long-existent pattern. People like the Bundys are taught that if an idea or action works for women or minorities, well, by gosh, it's only right that good ol' white males should be free to use it.

Give them some credit for having their own mythos and lore in which all of this can functions.

Seriously all of which is rooted in pushback against the civil rights movement. Said mythos is no older than I am.
posted by soundguy99 at 10:28 PM on January 30, 2016 [8 favorites]

Dear Mark and Donna,
Thank you for your donation and purchase of the Book, "Journey beyond Thought: Breaking the Bonds of the Conditioned mind." Since your donation exceeded the cost of the book, I am sending you an audio cassette rendition of the book as cassette players are now obsolete but for cars.
posted by phoque at 10:37 PM on January 30, 2016

p3on: at this moment you might not consider yourself 'better' than those people

Apart from my political beliefs I am those people. You're being oddly personal for some reason, and you clearly don't know me.
posted by traveler_ at 10:43 PM on January 30, 2016 [22 favorites]

Because the right wing, in general, has spent the last, what, 50 years? copying and co-opting the language and concepts of the left.

This seems more like the Confederates using guns to seize Fort Sumter from the federal government than anything like Martin Luther King. Guns, southern pride, hatred of the federal government, states rights, conspiracy theories, white resentment, citizen militias, martyrdom, radical Christianity -- they've got it all, just like ante-bellum Sorth Carolinians. I don't see any parallel to the modern civil rights movement at all. This is a throwback to the Civil War.
posted by JackFlash at 10:46 PM on January 30, 2016 [7 favorites]

Well, from that angle, they view themselves as inheritors of the mantle of the Revolutionary War. That's where that 3% in the Idaho 3% militia comes from, the idea that only 3% of the populace supported the US rebelling against England at the time.
posted by soundguy99 at 10:50 PM on January 30, 2016

AFAIK, a completely fictional idea, by the way.
posted by soundguy99 at 10:51 PM on January 30, 2016

After watching many hours of various Fry related YouTube videos, I've had a shocking revelation about how deep this goes. When you created an account at MeFi a strawman was created with $5 which placed in a secret account. That $5 is now under the control of a secret cabal. This cabal has run MeFi and has imposed dictatorial control over the site and placed all users under admiralty law, instead of older common law. This is denoted by the gold fringe on the logo. This cabal known as the International Moderator Conspiracy has been known to delete posts and comments; and even disappear users. They also take the money collected every time a post or comment is favorated and keep it for themselves.

Yet after a careful examination of Black's Law dictionary I have discovered that the HTML specification upon which all websites are based includes a loophole which will allow you to become a sovereign Mefite able to access funds from accumulated favorites held by your strawman. For a small fee I will share my knowledge with you.
posted by humanfont at 10:55 PM on January 30, 2016 [67 favorites]

People like the Bundys are taught that if an idea or action works for women or minorities, well, by gosh, it's only right that good ol' white males should be free to use it.

I mean, what I’m seeing here is the argument that if something works / gets media coverage, it gets adopted. Which, sure, I’ll buy. But given that Occupy accomplished essentially zero beyond infusing a few particular phrases into the vernacular, I remain loathe to cede it ground as a causal effect beyond as a general indicator of unrest. The BLM connection in that sense seems stronger.

Seriously all of which is rooted in pushback against the civil rights movement. Said mythos is no older than I am.

I’m not talking about it being old. I’m saying that the motivating stories -of Randy Weaver, of Tim McVeigh, and others- are their own tradition that have motivated certain kinds of action. Open carry of weapons at protests has been around in the right for a while -though the black panthers certainly did give that to us back wwhen. That internal reasoning process is important in and of itself as a lens. The forest might be the reduction of white privilege, but the trees have had a life of their own for a long time, and the forest (of events, I mean, to strain things) is only growing because of the characteristics of the trees. So I think that understand those stories are quite important in helping to shut this down.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:59 PM on January 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yet after a careful examination of Black's Law dictionary I have discovered that the HTML specification... This is denoted by the gold fringe on the logo.

( It's a fake gold fringe. It's really #cc0, which isn't even Admiralty Court, but a double-secret, double parallel justice system... Drafting a Constructive Notice of Rights to present to the "Judge" is left as an exercise to the student of SovCit theory... )
posted by mikelieman at 11:26 PM on January 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

It is ironic that these guys don't realize how much they share with radical terrorists.

Our world, as currently structured, has no use for so many people. There literally is nothing for them to do. There are no jobs. Vast swaths of people with no conventional paths to prosperity available.

Extremism is the inevitable result.
posted by yesster at 11:47 PM on January 30, 2016 [18 favorites]

Through days of industrious sewing and hundreds of dollars spent in the fabric district, I was able to make a ghillie suit out of gold fringe.

As a consequence I am legally invisible to almost all branches of the federal government and can do almost anything I want, preferably while enthusiastically celebrating my second amendment rights.

If you will excuse me, a Coast Guard Cutter has just fired a shot across my bow and is demanding my surrender.
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:58 PM on January 30, 2016 [21 favorites]

Finicum saw an eagle too. Interviewer says, "funny you should mention that".
posted by phoque at 1:09 AM on January 31, 2016

Mod note: A couple of comments deleted. As a quick note, I know that not a lot is happening with this right now, but while we are all keeping tabs on the situation, let's try to avoid: looking like a YouTube comment thread; doing the ironic racism (&tc) thing; trying to gin up more outrage with imaginary situations; Meta commentary on what "Metafilter is like," and other derails. Thanks.
posted by taz (staff) at 1:10 AM on January 31, 2016 [8 favorites]

phoque: Also, if you need another tab to reload, this fellow is determined to dance on All Your Base TV.

Interesting-- the last update he had on there was that he'd reached the roadblocks, but now his timeline has been scrubbed of all that and the two speeding tickets he got as he raced to Burns. I wonder if he turned around with his tail between his legs, or if he actually got arrested?
posted by bluecore at 4:29 AM on January 31, 2016

From Oregon standoff: Bundy occupation leaves scars behind link Artw posted up thread, this caught my attention;

Just a few miles away, the damage assessment is still underway at the Malheur Field Station, a research station run by the nonprofit Great Basin Society Inc. Duncan Evered, a co-director who fled the militia by driving without headlights over back roads that Saturday night, said the operation has lost about $20,000 through cancelled reservations and other costs.

He discovered the militia showed up last week, apparently breaking into a dining hall and dragging furniture outside to hold up targets. He said visitors stumbled upon the men, including occupation leader Ryan Payne, firing off their guns.


Militants declared they had found an abandoned village on the refuge, claimed the government had seize the homes and just evicted the residents, but the real story of the Malheur Field Station and Duncan (the only person allowed to live as a resident on the refuge) is much more interesting;
Malheur Field Station director left after learning: 'You have an armed militia down the road'
The embedded video in the article of him speaking at a counter protest is worth watching.

This Mel Bundy Interview (part 1) admits he was there and stayed, left and returned, (part 2) lots of 'we' and knowledge of actions.

This is Mel interviewed inside the refuge offices. Nothing spectacular, more just ... there he is in the mix at the top of the food chain and fully in the know.

I don't think this was posted yet;
Daily Mail profile of Sean Anderson
EXCLUSIVE: Oregon militiaman in armed standoff with FBI is an 'abusive' radical with a string of drug and alcohol convictions who is 'willing to die for his beliefs'

But it is nothing next to the suddenly reclusive Blaine Cooper's rap sheet
posted by phoque at 4:40 AM on January 31, 2016 [14 favorites]

Yes, I noticed that too. But it was more just about the phenomenon and how these events trigger others. And is also why Facebook links never feel like real links.
posted by phoque at 4:45 AM on January 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

The judge calls them "Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Argument [“OPCA”] Litigants"

Pseudo is the right prefix, definitely. These guys crumpled like a wet rag as soon as they faced consequences: Oregon Militants Denied Bail As Prosecutors Use Their Own Words Against Them.

Since his arrest, Ammon Bundy has publicly called for the end of the Malheur occupation:

“This was never meant to be an armed standoff,” Ammon Bundy said in the newly released video. “Please do not make it about something it wasn’t supposed to be. Go home to your families.”

posted by fraula at 4:54 AM on January 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's obvious their idea was to imitate the Occupy movement, but they did every single aspect of it wrong.

If I was going to copy a movement, Occupy would be the last one I would pick. It accomplished nothing and most of the camps devolved into issues with homeless and mentally ill people moving in, and all were eventually cleared out by local police without any substantive accomplishments to point to.* The Malheur militants were tapping into some of the same populist anger, but weren't using the organizing techniques, rhetoric, or model of Occupy.

* That the Malheur camp has turned into this same situation says a lot about who will show up if you make an open call for activists with no screening, and I think future protests on both left and right will start to proactively address this issue.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:21 AM on January 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

at this moment you might not consider yourself 'better' than those people, but unconsciously you do.
posted by p3on

unconsciously? What, after being knocked out? Do you mean subconsciously? Because I am English, and there's no subconsciously about it, mate. c.f. Churchill.

That's where that 3% in the Idaho 3% militia comes from, the idea that only 3% of the populace supported the US rebelling against England at the time.
posted by soundguy99

So they want to go back to being a British Colony? Is that what they are saying, they want us back over there, ruling over them? Fine by me.

As for the Four Lions idea, I vote it should be called Four Coyotes.
posted by marienbad at 5:34 AM on January 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

Finicum saw an eagle too yt . Interviewer says, "funny you should mention that".

Are these guys Romans?
posted by indubitable at 5:59 AM on January 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

LaVoy's breakdown of the issue. It's worth a listen. At roughly 30 minutes there is plenty of rambling and a little story-telling, but in contrast to much of the characterization of the participants I see thrown around in this thread, Finicum comes across as a reasonable, sober, honest man, and I'd be interested in hearing a reasoned and educated analysis of his statement if there is anyone here qualified to make such.
posted by bird internet at 6:05 AM on January 31, 2016

. It accomplished nothing

It promoted the idea that a majority of wealth is concentrated among very few people, and our political system is very much beholden to those people. This has moved into the mainstream of political discussion. Most protests are promotional, and function to move the Overton window. I'd say Occupy was quite successful in that regard, while I'm not sure any window is being moved anywhere by this protest, unless they accidentally knocked a window out with a backhoe.
posted by maxsparber at 6:06 AM on January 31, 2016 [33 favorites]

Finicum's argument is "fuck the public commons". I'm taking it. It's mine now. I'll do as I please with it. And if you want to challenge this, my firearms await.
posted by phoque at 6:18 AM on January 31, 2016 [15 favorites]

And, "but this is a nonviolent protest. Unless you try to stop me..."
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:22 AM on January 31, 2016 [11 favorites]

The year they strive for is 1215AD
posted by phoque at 6:23 AM on January 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

LaVoy, like most people trying to appeal to the constitution to get their way, ignores other significant parts of the constitution. For example, Article four, section three, clause two:

The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful Rules and Regulations respecting the Territory or other Property belonging to the United States; and nothing in this Constitution shall be so construed as to Prejudice any Claims of the United States, or of any particular State.

This both legitimizes the federal government owning property and bureaucrats writing rules and regulations. Any power in the constitution may be delegated by Congress and this has been delegated to the BLM. This has been validated in Supreme Court cases like Kleppe v. New Mexico. The Supreme Court being the ultimate adjudicator of the constitution, Mr. Finicum here hasn't a proverbial legal leg to stand on. He's more than welcome to sue the BLM but I suspect he won't get very far.

As to his assertion that grazing rights are a natural right, this is wholly incorrect. The Taylor Grazing Act of 1934 established legal grazing rights on federal lands and those rights "convey no right, title, or interest" in those lands. Given this is the law of the land before Mr. Finicum's birth I would say he has no recourse whatsoever.
posted by Talez at 6:37 AM on January 31, 2016 [16 favorites]

To add, Mr. Finicum's entire argument is basically "we've always stolen it so you can't stop us from stealing it now".
posted by Talez at 6:42 AM on January 31, 2016 [12 favorites]

As to the debate over whether this was inspired by Occupy: not directly, no, and I don't think anyone is arguing that there was an input-->output inspirational relationship there - but occupation is a very old American political tool and it did begin, and has to date mostly been practiced by, the left, first in labor organization takeovers and sit-down strikes, and then through the Freedom Rides (which were essentially public transportation takeovers) and the campus protests of the 60s and AIM's occupations of Alcatraz and the BIA building as well as Wounded Knee, etc. It was there to be used. Also, the general note that most conservative tactics of the last 40 years have been structured along the lines of lefty protests is pretty well established and was reported on quite a bit during the late Bush administration and early Obama years.

Yes, the right has its own particular rhetoric, tropes, and traditions, but this is an example of not one pure creation or another, but an American political mashup.

Finally, I'd say that Occupy was ineffective at any sort of policy level. thanks to its allergy to strategic leadership, but it did accomplish a startling amount of cultural change and very much heightened the visibility and mainstream acceptance of narratives about economic inequality. I suspect the architects of this event were hoping (are hoping?) for a similar shift in the minds and hearts of the people, drawing popular sympathy to the cause of individual rights and freedoms and so forth.
posted by Miko at 6:43 AM on January 31, 2016 [9 favorites]

At work, I run into a lot of people who are eager to turn exceptions into the status quo. "Well, I remember three years ago you waived my fine so I want you to do that now because you did it before. I'm ignoring the fact the previous fine was waived due to a blizzard and it is now sunny and my items were late because I forgot. The fact is you can waive fines so you must."

I get the same feeling from a lot of these guys. At some point, somebody made an exception for them. Someone let the graze some land, someone let them hunt where they probably shouldn't have, someone waived a fine or fee when they needed it. Now they want that exception to become the rule, but they can't figure out how to do it. So they get into weird moon law and weirder punctuation schemes hoping that will unlock the favored status they once received, which doesn't really work, but hey it seems like carrying a bunch of guns seems to beget exceptions in their favor so they'll do that too!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:49 AM on January 31, 2016 [18 favorites]

I give the FBI a perfect score so far on how they've handled this whole thing.

As for the remaining idiots occupying that place, if they're really on meth, why doesn't someone show up and start digging a hole in front of them, hand them the shovel...
posted by iffthen at 6:54 AM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

There is zero evidence of meth use that I have seen and they have been very public with their antics.
posted by phoque at 7:00 AM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

I don't understand why anyone would entertain a false equivalence between the Malheur seizure and Occupy, or the Civil Rights momvement, or any other non-violent protest. The key difference here is non-violent. The moment someone threatens to kill people with guns, they are no longer protestors. They are dangerous criminals. Or at best they are insurrectionists. But boy they better win the ensuing firefight if that's what they want.

Finicum comes across as a reasonable, sober, honest man, and I'd be interested in hearing a reasoned and educated analysis of his statement

Finicum is the one who repeatedly said on national TV he was going to die for the cause. And then he tried to run down federal agents with his truck at a road block. And failing that, he tried to draw a gun on them before he got shot down. He was not a reasonable, sober, or honest man.

And even if any of these seditionists do have some legitimate argument about federal management of public lands, it is impossible to have a reasoned and educated analysis of that now. Because they took up arms against the government and the people. They acted like terrorists. That delegitimizes anything they are trying to say. Discussion is not the appropriate response to a bunch of armed thugs seizing public property. Containment and imprisonment is the response.
posted by Nelson at 7:35 AM on January 31, 2016 [17 favorites]

The good news patriots performed a peaceful protest. They parked their vehicles, got out and milled around. They enjoyed noticing how they were unarmed and for Brandon Curtiss the gesture proved people were silly for ever being afraid of them.

Then still without a weapon strapped to their person, mounted up and convoyed past the police station twice, horn and lights going like a wedding procession. And that was the unarmed peaceful protest.

Deb Jordan got Santilli's gear back and streamed the procession. Nothing happened of notice, but ... the patriot claims don't square with actions ... ever.
posted by phoque at 7:48 AM on January 31, 2016

I give the FBI a perfect score

Concur. It's the DAs that are going upset me. How is this not terrorism again? It remains, brown or Muslim and they'd be dead. I don't want that; I want charges and vigorous prosecution...after all the 'FBI sting' crap that never endangered a single person, this is a real demonstrated threat.
posted by j_curiouser at 8:04 AM on January 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

When the word terrorism used to have a meaning, didn't it mean deliberately murdering/kidnapping unarmed civilians for political effect?
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 8:11 AM on January 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

The freemen, Waco folks,(I met one of them,) Ruby Ridge, and now the Bundys/Finicum disaster, know they would go to jail if they were caught doing not only what they already do, and certainly what they want to do. They are hunkered down doing, worrying, and then desiring more.

The sad reality is our government takes the place of an abusive parent, waiting outside the bathroom, or bedroom, to punish for intensely pleasurable but private acts...that is a major part of the juice that underlies this particular politic. That is the sad emotional leavings of the inappropriate interface between being human, and usurpation of intimate human rights by self proclaimed authorities who gather momentum as they please, and enrich themselves.

Some people are born broken, and others are broken, then the broken break when they get their turn.
posted by Oyéah at 8:12 AM on January 31, 2016

I don't think people are drawing an equivalence between the civil rights movement, Occupy, and Bundy's group. First, not every part of the civil rights movement was non-violent. The most effective part was non-violent but you could argue that without the threat of violence posed by other groups the non-violent portion of the civil rights movement would have been less effective. It didn't take long for the police to infiltrate, kill or imprison the leaders of most of the civil rights groups that were not committed to non-violence but that doesn't mean that they didn't serve a purpose.

I think Bundy copied the idea of occupation from the Occupy movement but he didn't understand how organized civil disobedience works. The confrontation at Cliven Bundy's ranch and the standoff at Sugar Pine mine were not occupations of symbolic locations. They were defenses of already established sites. It's not an accident that Ammon decided to switch tactics by occupying a federal reserve. He got the part about choosing a symbolic location that can be occupied indefinitely while you organize around the occupation. Everything else, discipline, strategy, willingness to sacrifice, having an achievable list of demands, he missed because he didn't take the people who had tried occupation as a strategy before him seriously. Ego and ignorance.
posted by rdr at 8:14 AM on January 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

I’m not talking about it being old. I’m saying that the motivating stories -of Randy Weaver, of Tim McVeigh, and others- are their own tradition that have motivated certain kinds of action. Open carry of weapons at protests has been around in the right for a while -though the black panthers certainly did give that to us back wwhen. That internal reasoning process is important in and of itself as a lens. The forest might be the reduction of white privilege, but the trees have had a life of their own for a long time, and the forest (of events, I mean, to strain things) is only growing because of the characteristics of the trees. So I think that understand those stories are quite important in helping to shut this down.

Fair point, GTM. (And I think we tend to agree, just that I was looking at the old growth forest, you are examining the new growth trees. Different perspectives, I suppose.)
posted by soundguy99 at 8:16 AM on January 31, 2016

New Yorker lands a few jabs;
Ammon Bundy Stands Down
posted by phoque at 8:20 AM on January 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

discipline, strategy...having an achievable list of demands, he missed

He was copying Occupy!
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 8:21 AM on January 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

I don't understand why anyone would entertain a false equivalence between the Malheur seizure and Occupy, or the Civil Rights momvement, or any other non-violent protest.

Nobody's doing that. Some of us are discussing the extent and . . . . mechanisms (I guess?) by which right-wing rhetoric and actions (like Malheur) are copying, in a twisted way, earlier left-wing rhetoric and actions. Opinions may differ on how thorough and how direct a connection can be made, but essentially we're just examining and comparing the details of the Bundys' cheap knock-off protest vs. the originals. We're not claiming they're moral equivalents (or practical equivalents, for that matter.)
posted by soundguy99 at 8:31 AM on January 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

When the word terrorism used to have a meaning, didn't it mean deliberately murdering/kidnapping unarmed civilians for political effect?

OPB and other local media have been using the term "militants," which I think correctly captures the ambiguous space on the spectrum these people are in, between "activists" on the one side and "terrorists" on the other. They have the threat and theater of violence that activists traditionally eschew, but without the actual violence of terrorists.

At the same time, I suspect at least a few of them may get prosecuted using the post-9/11 security laws that used extremely broad definitions of terrorism, under which they certainly qualify.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:31 AM on January 31, 2016 [7 favorites]

Civil rights, Occupy were about getting rights, and making accountability happen. Ferguson, Black Lives Matter, about the real right to life, and right to equal justice but, under the law.

The Bundys are about free money, theft of public resources, and more rights for whites, with violent, armed usurpation encouraged. I maintain in the climate they grew up in, they never had rights, they don't understand the concept of either human rights, (for all humans,) or the property rights of this nation as a whole, and what entities inside our form of government, have the responsibility to safeguard the lands, we the people, hold in ccommon.
posted by Oyéah at 8:33 AM on January 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

> When the word terrorism used to have a meaning, didn't it mean deliberately murdering/kidnapping unarmed civilians for political effect?

From the other thread:

FBI definition:

"Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:

• Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
• Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
• Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S.

posted by rtha at 8:34 AM on January 31, 2016 [24 favorites]

It's supposed to snow today in Malheur around noon give or take - I'm sure the final four will appreciate the beauty and majesty that gives to the area after spending a 17 degree evening in their lean-to.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:38 AM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

It's a sign! Not to leave but to stay! God is blanketing us with his love and protection!
posted by RedEmma at 8:40 AM on January 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

I am now hoping that Ammon Bundy will have to go and plead with his nerdly unruly former-followers, apologizing for how he treated them like underlings and how he admires their pluck and agrees to pay all their fines.
posted by RedEmma at 8:42 AM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Shawna Cox was released because her son in law died in a fire. So she gives her version of events in a radio interview. (embedded video near bottom of page, interview starts 12min25sec in)
posted by phoque at 8:44 AM on January 31, 2016

It would be like the quarterback on the high school football team having to get up in an assembly and beg the AV crew to forgive him for being a dick and leading them astray.
posted by RedEmma at 8:45 AM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Small derail please - looking at the court pictures drawn from the hearings - why are ARE those drawings inevitably so bad (seriously) ?? I have seen far better portraits of people from artists busking at minor events. Why can not the person drawing a record of an important event do the same? Something I am missing??
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:46 AM on January 31, 2016

Those guys at carnivals have the person sitting right in front of them. Not so tv sketch artists.

The artists are sitting back in the gallery, and not immediately in front of the subjects. Also, the subjects are constantly moving, even slightly, so you never have them sitting still in a single pose long enough to draw a more realistic image. They really are quickly sketching, and not making portraits. They also have to do their work in as unnoticeable a manner as possible.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:52 AM on January 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

Same reason they can't take photos; if the likeness is too good some portion of the subject's incorporated legal essence will be transferred into it and thus be beyond the reach of the admiralty court system to punish.
posted by contraption at 8:53 AM on January 31, 2016 [34 favorites]

Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;

Until Finicum ran from the first road block, I can't think of anything that crossed this line. Lots of posturing and threats and lots of law breaking, but no actual violence. I may be misremembering, obviously, but in terms of the FBI definition this is where the occupation would largely fall on the side of militant theatricality rather than terrorist violence. (The threats to local officials and federal employees in Burns, including vandalism and stalking, however, is very much on the other side of that line.)

The FBI definition is important, because it guides law enforcement choices between ordinary crime investigation and prevention on the one hand, and high-impact national security responses on the other. But I'm also just thinking about the spectrum of protest over the years, including the famous photo of the Black Panthers on the steps of the capitol building and how I would in no way characterize that kind of militant posturing as terrorism, whether right wing or left wing, even though a lot of it could easily fit the current FBI definition.

While some of the occupation leaders are clearly self-promoters first and foremost, others seem to be true believers who would probably characterize themselves as legitimate activists and even revolutionaries. I suppose the difference between a revolutionary and a terrorist is simply which one is successful, but over the years militia activists have been very explicit in making connections between their organizing and the armed insurrection that resulted in American independence (though interestingly, they almost never connect themselves to the insurrectionists who began the Confederacy), which is rhetorically powerful while also eliding key differences.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:53 AM on January 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

From FaceBook:

I just got a phone call from Sean Anderson III and Sandy Anderson III in the refuge...the fbi shut down their other phone...they now have no internet and lost everybody's phone number. sandy asked me to send nunbers of people they had been talking to.... Harley Dockery Jerry DeLemus Rhonda Sparkman Jonathon Skipper Speece Carol Bundy Steven Brooks...when they call Dave's phone in the refuge the fbi actually answer his phone...they will not come out and sandy wanted me to put it out there that if news reports say they surrendered... it was not by their free will...once again, they have no internet
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:02 AM on January 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

LaVoy's breakdown of the issue yt . It's worth a listen. At roughly 30 minutes there is plenty of rambling and a little story-telling, but in contrast to much of the characterization of the participants I see thrown around in this thread, Finicum comes across as a reasonable, sober, honest man, and I'd be interested in hearing a reasoned and educated analysis of his statement if there is anyone here qualified to make such.

I simply haven't the patience to sit through 30 minutes of folksy-rancher-gobbledegook, much less dissect the nonsense point-by-point, but the Southern Poverty Law Center pages on the Sovereign Citizens Movement and the Antigovernment Movement should get you started.

The super-short version is that all these guys cherry-pick only certain sections of the Constitution and history to pay attention to, interpret them in an extremely narrow way, and ignore the rest. Their initial data and premises are so wrong that attempting to produce an analysis of any one statement is a major undertaking, because you'd have to spend so much time and effort filling in all the stuff about history and how our government works that they leave out.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:13 AM on January 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

In America people get entirely too much credit for not yelling or frothing at the mouth while spouting utter nonsense.
posted by benito.strauss at 9:16 AM on January 31, 2016 [11 favorites]

Whatever Shawna Cox has to say, video on The Oregonian plainly shows Shawna Cox, exiting the truck with her hands up, and not dying, same with early exiter Ryan Payne, same with everyone else that didn't die. The Oregon State Police, the little old government of Oregon made the stop.

The government wants them dead? Pshaw! They just aren't that important, hell they aren't even on social security ya know, leeching off the government.

Here are some of the problems with the baby footprints and identification of American citizens by Homeland Security. The fundamentalist sects in Utah and scattered all across the west have been taking juveniles to wife for a long time. They have hidden their practices by use of midwives and Naturopathic physicians, and they still do. The problem is that in order to hide what they do they have not gotten birth certificates for these children of children, reassigned and renamed children, for generations. Now a lot of folks have no ID, and have no means to. So they home school, stay in their parochial schools, but starting a while ago, can't even get state driver's licenses.

This is not tyranny on the part of big government, it is Homeland Security. There are also loads of taxes never paid, the stuff empires are built on. When multiplenwives work at home, older children work construction, the money flows without supervision of the IRS. Since the issue of baby footprints keeps coming up as a sign of tyranny and corporate ownership, what it really symbolizes is the wall these huge family/corporations have come up against. It is relatively new, the ID issue, but the numbers of people working the religious/slave economy, and the amount of income is astronomical. These people can't leave the organizations, they have no identity, many of the super fundie women have no education past sixth grade.

This fulminating "talk rebellion" has many origins but a lot of it is defense of a secret economy built on nepotism, slavery, and theft of resources via nepotism.
posted by Oyéah at 9:16 AM on January 31, 2016 [17 favorites]

Sounds like they've given them enough time and enough ways to say "We're definitely not leaving, no matter what" to any number of people. But Sandy hasn't been making much sense in some days, so her interpretation of what's going on with the phones may or may not be true.
posted by RedEmma at 9:20 AM on January 31, 2016

Also, there's no way the FBI is going to let them livestream their capture/surrender, no matter how much we who are addicted to the crazyshow might wish otherwise.
posted by RedEmma at 9:22 AM on January 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

Cox does say Finicum never unholstered his gun. Then can't quite remember which gun he was carrying.
posted by phoque at 9:23 AM on January 31, 2016

Also, there's no way the FBI is going to let them livestream their capture/surrender, no matter how much we who are addicted to the crazyshow might wish otherwise.

Which, oddly, leaves me hoping that there's no reason to release the drone footage.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:31 AM on January 31, 2016

Whether Finicum unholstered a gun or even reached for it is a red herring imho. When you run a roadblock nearly killing a LEO in the process, then run out of your vehicle directly towards a LEO and furthermore are known for always carrying weapons on your person you are going to get shot no matter where your arms are or what they are doing.

The only way that Fnicum could have survived is to have his arms out the car window and carefully followed LEO instructions afterwards. It really make no difference at all whether he reached for a weapon or even had one - he rushed a LEO after running a roadblock - end of story and end of Finicum.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:33 AM on January 31, 2016 [11 favorites]

To add, Mr. Finicum's entire argument is basically "we've always stolen it so you can't stop us from stealing it now".

To be fair, that can be an argument. See: adverse possession, local custom, easements, etc.
I'm not saying it's a good argument, but it has contributed to winning arguments before.
posted by ctmf at 9:36 AM on January 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

An interesting story, but one you are never likely to hear reliably, is exactly what went on in Finicum's truck for three and a half minutes while stopped by police before he took off in the high speed chase. Three and a half minutes is a pretty long time under those circumstances. At least from one account there was an argument between Ryan Payne and Finicum over tactics which resulted in Ryan Payne getting out and surrendering.
posted by JackFlash at 9:46 AM on January 31, 2016 [9 favorites]

Agreed having a gun or not is totally beside the point. But it is an acknowledgment from someone attempting to spin the victim angle that a gun was present. There was every reason to believe he was armed and trust his threats about using those weapons. So it would have been surprising if he wasn't. But I found it to be an intriguing statement, plus she couldn't see him so wouldn't know first hand if he did draw or not, but would know he had a gun.

Also the conversation in the vehicle between occupants was clarifying on some matters, like why Payne got out and Finicum screaming he was going to see the sheriff.
posted by phoque at 9:51 AM on January 31, 2016

Payne successfully surrendering is all the argument that should be necessary to refute the insane, "hands up, don't shoot" (yes, they're really appropriating that) militia revisionist narrative. Payne actually got out with his hands up, and left them up, and nothing happened to him. Finicum did not. End of story.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:53 AM on January 31, 2016 [8 favorites]

Payne had to argue to get Finicum to stop the first time. Finicum had no intention from the get go of stopping. And Payne bailed at the first opportunity.
posted by phoque at 9:56 AM on January 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

From Facebook again:
Spoke with Greg Whalen briefly. He was recently in contact with Sean Anderson III and Sandy Anderson III. I was able to obtain their CP numbers from Greg, alas.....both phones are in fact off at this time.

During our call, I asked if there was any message I can get out to the Patriot Community. Greg first stated, "Just pray for them" and than he explained to me, they want to speak with media (MSM like CNN, Fox, etc.)

I know that Julie Turkwitz (NYT) is in contact with them via text somehow. Last known tweet from her is: "julieturkewitz @julieturkewitz 2h2 hours ago Washington, USA
Just spoke w David Fry, one of the Malheur holdouts. "I personally am tired. I stayed up all night," he said"

I'll try texting those numbers. Just in case they are off for sending & receiving calls, but maybe able to text.

~SSG Moe

SSG. ... Moe.... {insert your own joke here}
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:12 AM on January 31, 2016

marienbad: "So they want to go back to being a British Colony? Is that what they are saying, they want us back over there, ruling over them? Fine by me.
"

They see themselves as equivalent to the 3% that opposed British rule.
posted by Mitheral at 10:13 AM on January 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

Right, and the scary part is, it's explicitly acknowledging that just because 97% of everyone thinks they're crazy (and they do), that doesn't mean they're the crazy ones. It's basically a "wake up, sheeple" affirmation.
posted by ctmf at 10:18 AM on January 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

Well, ya know, with all the talk of the omnipotent eavesdroping capabilities of our government, if there were cell coverage in that area, surely the law enforcement agencies heard every syllable spoken in both cars, even if there weren't cell coverage. I hate to say it I am sure with a big well appointed aircraft, they had diy wifi, or cell capacity enough to listen in, with the militants' phones. You can bet they have had the warrants lined up from day two.

The state police were lucky their deputy had to take a leak, and was in the right place, at the right time. Watching the long, slow footage of the overflight, I thought I saw other deputies in the woods, about one per mile before the last roadblock. They need some optional white camo, for winter work, just some anoraks and gaiters would do.
posted by Oyéah at 10:20 AM on January 31, 2016

The state police were lucky their deputy had to take a leak, and was inmthe right place, at the right time

It looked to me like he was absolutely placed there, weapon drawn and ready - don't you think? And yes, I'm sure there more positioned so.
posted by Miko at 10:22 AM on January 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yeah I saw more in the woods along the route. They were in black, against the snow. The scale and gesture, were right to be watchful humans.
posted by Oyéah at 10:25 AM on January 31, 2016

I watched the upper shooter, it looked like the deputy gestured with the left hand, then drew a pistol with the right. It had to be a hard choice, but his co-worker was vulnerable below Finicum, and they were both vulnerable to the occupants of the truck. Too many variables to not act.
posted by Oyéah at 10:29 AM on January 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

The livestreaming may be over. Calls out of the refuge appear to have been cut. Fry's phone is the only one working, and he can only receive.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:48 AM on January 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

When this is all over it'll be interesting to see which reporters use "stand down," not including quotations, and which say "leave."
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:00 AM on January 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

Cox does say Finicum never unholstered his gun.

That is basically a tacit admission that he did reach for his gun, which is what the FBI is saying and the video shows.
posted by kiltedtaco at 11:02 AM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

The comments from the holdouts make me think of

"They have taken the Bridge and the
second hall: we have barred the
gates...but cannot hold them for
long...the ground shakes...drums in the
deep...we cannot get out. A shadow moves
in the dark. Will no-one save us? They
are coming."

posted by sneebler at 11:04 AM on January 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

That is basically a tacit admission that he did reach for his gun

Meh, to be fair, it's not a prepared statement by a public affairs professional who carefully chooses words. She's a layperson speaking off the cuff - I wouldn't read too much into precise phrasing and word choices.

Not that I think someone emotionally involved, in a stressful fast-moving situation, and admittedly huddled on the floor without a view of the action is that credible an information source in the first place, but still.
posted by ctmf at 11:07 AM on January 31, 2016

P.S. all the blurred pictures of Victoria Sharpe, means she was not even 18,
posted by Oyéah at 11:11 AM on January 31, 2016

Here's a bit more on the communications blocking.
posted by Miko at 11:16 AM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oyeah, can you clarify your source? All of the news outlets are reporting her as age 18.
posted by mochapickle at 11:16 AM on January 31, 2016

Yeah, the fact that LaVoy didn't order her out of the car when he planned what was essentially a suicide mission—regardless of her own desires—is hugely damning in my eyes.

I mean, I don't care if he totally thought he was correct in his every move, he had to know that subjecting her to what he was doing was wrong on all kinds of levels. He was a terrible person.
posted by RedEmma at 11:17 AM on January 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

I suppose not being able to reach out will have the effect of making them feel even more isolated. Even though most of the livestream commenters were trolling and baiting them, it was one way they were feeling a two-way connection and the satisfaction of a big audience. Taking that away makes sense - pulling one more psychological block from their foundations.
posted by Miko at 11:17 AM on January 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

Like the previous thread, there is a level of conjecture happening along the run of these comments that makes my head spin.
posted by hippybear at 11:18 AM on January 31, 2016 [11 favorites]

Unholstered is irrelevant. One of the not-fun things about a gun in a pocket is that you don't have to draw it to fire. There are holsters that will prevent accidental discharge, and others it would be a bad idea to try to shoot through, but the cops are obviously not going to know what kind of holster or if it's just in a pocket, same as they can't know whether there is actually a gun there or the person is faking it. Once he is sideways to the cop in the trees, with his hands down on his side, he's in a position to shoot the guy at any time.

I found this somewhat of a refreshing read, because it was nice to see that there are at least few people on the Bundy side that are at least honest and can read a scene. I suspect he may be wrong about who fired the shots -- I think the guy in the trees may have had a taser rather than a gun -- but it's a point by point walkthrough of the stop and says 'no, dudes, was not an ambush/murder/whatever'.
posted by tavella at 11:21 AM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Reports of a hundred and sixty rounds, car shot to hell, the government wants them dead, yet the government only brought in one person who can shoot straight, apparently. I mean the rest were just collecting overtime?

Maybe their total lameness after the fact is supposed to engender pity. In some ways it does, but they oughta see the bill, what their twitted insouisence costs. They are already way in a hole they think they talked their way out of, on Cliven's ranch, not so. Bleeding the beast is a common theme among tapped out people who want to glorify their dependence on the government, out west anyway.
posted by Oyéah at 11:24 AM on January 31, 2016

P.S. all the blurred pictures of Victoria Sharpe, means she was not even 18,

No it doesn't; please stop adding more misinformation to this mess.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 11:29 AM on January 31, 2016 [16 favorites]

HB, they stopped giving her name, and then blurred the pictures of her, ie no closeups of her surrender, and then her immediate release. All these things indicate she is a minor. The officials who are responsible stopped talking about her, but the diy people went on using her as an information source.

This is the source of my conjecture. It is not too wild.
posted by Oyéah at 11:30 AM on January 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

My statement about conjecture was not directed toward a single individual. It was made after catching up on this thread after working on a megapost. Your conjecture does add to the fog, but yours is not the only that is creating confusion and misinformation in this thread.
posted by hippybear at 11:32 AM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

"HB, they stopped giving her name, and then blurred the pictures of her, ie no closeups of her surrender, and then her immediate release. All these things indicate she is a minor. "

This is incorrect. There is absolutely no legal obligation in the US to blur or hide information about minors, and it is not common practice for media to do so. It is much more likely there is a court order of some sort pertaining to an ongoing investigation, or that she is also a victim of a crime.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:33 AM on January 31, 2016 [10 favorites]

> Here's a bit more on the communications blocking.

So far the only source that their phones are blocked and that it's being done by the FBI is the four people remaining in the refuge. It's possible that they're right, but... Let's wait for confirmation from someone less sleep-deprived.
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:33 AM on January 31, 2016

> Dennis Leary

You're off by over 1,000 years .
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:37 AM on January 31, 2016 [7 favorites]

> Dennis Leary

You're off by over 1,000 years .

Man, I stared at that Leary thing for a long time trying to figure out what the joke was.

(I mean Leary's been accused of stealing material before, but...)
posted by Trochanter at 11:44 AM on January 31, 2016 [7 favorites]

I found this somewhat of a refreshing read,

I like the derail in the comments on that about how the roadblock configuration was illegal. I'm disappointed, MetaFilter. We let them scoop us on a prime bean plating opportunity.
posted by ctmf at 11:44 AM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

No news at all about Blaine Cooper. Has he just completely disappeared?
posted by mochapickle at 11:59 AM on January 31, 2016

Someone on Reddit stabilized the footage of the idiot getting himself killed.
posted by interrobang at 12:00 PM on January 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

No news at all about Blaine Cooper. Has he just completely disappeared?


He turned into a god damned sexual tyrannosaurus
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 12:02 PM on January 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

The Internet is the most powerful addiction. Forget running out of cigarettes, weed, booze, coffee, etc. These poor bastards.
posted by humanfont at 12:03 PM on January 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

He turned into a god damned sexual tyrannosaurus

this sort of conjecture is poisoning this thread /joke
posted by hippybear at 12:04 PM on January 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

> I stared at that Leary thing for a long time trying to figure out what the joke was

Yeah, I'm still wondering if I missed a joke.
posted by The corpse in the library at 12:05 PM on January 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

Also IIRC the government has blurred out individuals who were not charged. At the press conference they also did not name those individuals either. Age has nothing to do with it. I don't think it is a legal requirement, but a more customary/common sense practive.
posted by humanfont at 12:07 PM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Sorry about my poison conjectures. Victoria Sharpe is an adult. Her devout mon took the kids to sing at Cliven Bundy's place for the first go round. Victoria moved to Montana and is independent of her mom. Mom took the kids to Oregon to sing, was on the refuge, has had one child removed previously in Kansas for substantiated abuse.

"He turned into a god damned sexual tyrannosaurus"

Please cite?
posted by Oyéah at 12:11 PM on January 31, 2016

I think Leary said it in Demolition Man, which feels like it just makes things more confusing.
posted by maxsparber at 12:12 PM on January 31, 2016

There was a discussion about how every one in the car was on the floor and couldn't see anything to begin with, but the first reports of Finicum's demise, came from Ammon's alleged phone call to his wife from the back of a squad car, a mile away from the shooting. The only reliable witness to the shooting was the camera, the one eyed thing. But, I will go back and find what I meant.
posted by Oyéah at 12:22 PM on January 31, 2016

I find it amusing that "Malheur" literally means "misfortune" or "adversity". You couldn't have picked a slightly less ominous place to occupy?


Anyway, if I was one of the remaining militants, I think my exit strategy at this point would be "strip down, grease myself up with the rest of the lube, and make a run for it."


CATCH THIS.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:40 PM on January 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

Finicum saw an eagle too.


See, if we taught classics anymore everybody'd know that the oracle is always fucking with you.
posted by Trochanter at 12:46 PM on January 31, 2016 [24 favorites]

I think my exit strategy at this point would be "strip down, grease myself up with the rest of the lube, and make a run for it."

TheWhiteSkull, I want to introduce you to indubitable.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:47 PM on January 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

The FBI should simply drive a burrito truck up to the edge of the property, upwind from the stragglers, and just let the smell of fresh, hot burritos draw them out.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:53 PM on January 31, 2016 [7 favorites]

TheWhiteSkull, I want to introduce you to indubitable.

Totally missed that.

Either way, we can still add "French" to the long list of things the Oregon militants don't understand.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 12:54 PM on January 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

Here, read an excerpt from Finicums own Book.
Page 1 and Page 2

The hero is confronted by 3 federal agents who have guns drawn and then he uses his awesome quickdraw skills to draw and fire, killing all three.
I think he was literally trying to recreate this scene.
posted by Iax at 1:05 PM on January 31, 2016 [26 favorites]

I just got a phone call from Sean Anderson III and Sandy Anderson III in the refuge...the fbi shut down their other phone...they now have no internet and lost everybody's phone number.

Technical curiousity question. How would blocking/shutting down a phone make it lose all the numbers? Is that possible to do something from the outside to erase the numbers? Maybe they just didn't use contacts or have call logs or something?
posted by Jalliah at 1:05 PM on January 31, 2016

I'm gonna say 'being armed and threatening to kill LEOs' == dangerous to human life. More dangerous, in fact, than holding fake bomb parts given to you by the fbi (in the sting example). Terrorism, QED. Just reframe it as: a black, a muslim of any race, and a native american take over an urban post office and make similar threats. I'll drop it now.
posted by j_curiouser at 1:08 PM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Ok, new movie-ization idea: Wet Hot American Summer spin-off, written/directed/acted by The State.

[on reflection, I can't imagine that wasn't mentioned in Old Thread, but opening it to check would make my RAM grumpy.]
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 1:10 PM on January 31, 2016

At roughly 30 minutes there is plenty of rambling and a little story-telling, but in contrast to much of the characterization of the participants I see thrown around in this thread, Finicum comes across as a reasonable, sober, honest man, and I'd be interested in hearing a reasoned and educated analysis of his statement if there is anyone here qualified to make such.

I could only make it through the first ten minutes or so of the video. There is too much malarkey in there to critique all of it. Finicum is absolutely full of it.

Some context: The land he is standing on appears to be part of Grand Canyon Parashant National Monument. Grand Canyon Parashant National Monument was declared by President Clinton in January 2000. The land is now jointly managed by the National Park Service (NPS) and Bureau of Land Management (BLM). My guess is that BLM is solely responsible for administering grazing leases. Grazing is governed by the Taylor Grazing Act of 1934.

I believe this is the reservoir that he is standing next to at the start of the video. (Depending on the date of the satellite imagery, those may even be Finicum's cattle that are visible.) The largest mountain behind him appears to be Mount Trumbull, and the distant cliffs to the south appear to be part of the Toroweap valley. It looks like Finicum is grazing the upper (northern) portion of the Toroweap Valley.

The area is historically home to the Southern Paiute. The pinyon pines in the area produce pine nuts, a traditionally important food source. Ranchers who settled the area cleared out woodlands by dragging lengths of anchor chain between two tractors, uprooting and destroying trees.

The green grass that surrounds Finicum really is beautiful. I do not think it is typical for that time of year. In the month before Finicum shot that video, that part of Arizona received maybe twice as much rain as normal. "Toroweap" is a Paiute word that roughly translates to "dry valley" or "barren valley."

Finicum has been grazing cattle on his BLM allotment since 2009. He has stated that his ranch is not profitable, and that his main source of income is from foster parenting. Finicum is a hobby farmer.

The linked article mentions that Finicum had not yet even run cattle on his BLM parcel until that month, because there was never water in that parcel's reservoir. If the reservoir described in the article is the same one visible in his video, that gives you an idea of how atypical the scene really is.

There simply is just not a lot of water in the area. There is a ghost town in the Toroweap Valley area called Bundyville. It was settled by Cliven Bundy's ancestors, and it is a ghost town for a reason. There is not much water. The settlers in Bundyville would roll giant snowballs down Mount Trumbull in the winter, and they would melt them for water later. Seriously. There's so little surface water, they resorted to giant snowballs.

Finicum states, "If a person gets crosswise with one of these statutes, they are then hauled into a federal court [by the BLM] and tried by a federal judge. All three branches of power combined under one head."

This is looney tunes. Even if the "statutes" he refers to are administrative rules, those rules were implemented under authority granted to the BLM by Congress. This is the separation of powers as it is supposed to work: Congress writes laws (e.g., the Taylor Grazing Act), the executive branch enforces them (e.g., the BLM oversees grazing leases), and the judicial branch resolves disputes (i.e., the federal court system that Finicum rails against). If the executive branch could not make administrative rules, it would take an act of Congress just to put a pedestrian crossing in front of a national park headquarters.

The "one head" that Finicum finds so threatening is the vast majority of the body politic that simply does not agree with his bizarre interpretations of the Constitution.

The most important part though is this. Finicum states that "A grazing right is a right that is established by prior appropriation ... pre-emptive or prior appropriation is the legal term. And that's how property rights are established."

This is a fancy way of saying "you own things by taking them." The contention of Finicum's ilk is that they own your public lands because they took them.
posted by compartment at 1:13 PM on January 31, 2016 [45 favorites]

Technical curiousity question. How would blocking/shutting down a phone make it lose all the numbers?

Depends on the phone, I would imagine. iPhones can be remotely wiped, for example. I'm not sure *why* Law Enforcement would want to do that, except possibly as a psychological tactic.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:20 PM on January 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

iPhones can be remotely wiped, for example.

Ah okay. I didn't know this. I'm not sure why they would either. Just didn't know it was actually possible to do it. Thanks.
posted by Jalliah at 1:24 PM on January 31, 2016

First possession is a property theory. I guess if you grant that the government can't own land then nobody owns it. So he's taking it, which makes it his.

Then there's the labor theory. The government isn't using it, they just put a fence around it. He's using it, so that makes it his.

There may be a little Demsetz in their theory that it should all belong to individual people, too, and then those people would have a conservation interest. But it seems to me it's kind of all based on the idea that right now, nobody owns it.
posted by ctmf at 1:33 PM on January 31, 2016

Re: Finicum's grazing grievance discussed above, I just want to make it clear what a ridiculously sweet, welfare-caliber deal he already had from the BLM. He was allowed to graze 160+ head of cattle on 17,000 acres of our public land from October through May, all for the low, low price of $1126/year as of 2014.

Given the ecological damage and costs that can be associated with grazing (compacted soils, streambank denuding, encouraging invasive species, trampling rare plants, reducing habitat for endangered species), he was already benefiting from a huge government giveaway of our public lands even before he demanded to do the same damn thing, but for free and with released from the few grazing restrictions that even minimally preserve these landscapes.

No, he had no legitimate grievance.
posted by dialetheia at 1:34 PM on January 31, 2016 [39 favorites]

I could also just see them having their service suspended since they forgot to pay their bills, among all of this craziness. The remote wipe feature on an iPhone is part of the "find my phone" service - I don't see someone who is afraid of government encroachment enabling that if they good (regardless that the phone can be tracked anyway, passively, by just triangulating based on the signal strength of it's unique radio identifier, something easy to do if you have the cooperation of the cell providers who run the antennas in the region - this may explain why their are keeping their phones off). If Fry was the tech savvy hacker who he somehow posses as, he would have silent circle or similar encrypted on device services in place. But I doubt that. (and funnily enough, Apple is the one going to bat for consumers privacy by refusing to retain backdoor encryption keys / service override for their devices - best they can do server side given their current tech is remove the activation lock, allowing a device that wasn't removed from the find my phone service before it was wiped to be reset by someone else - the activation lock being implemented in the first place because cell carriers in the US refused to implement a IMEI blacklist for stolen phones for a long time).
posted by mrzarquon at 1:38 PM on January 31, 2016

In one of the past videos, Fry's mentioned having to buy more data. So probably on a prepaid plan. Maybe he ran out of money and couldn't get more data. Or the plan ran out.

I can't see why the FBI would cut them off. Nearly everyone in the outside world, including their friends and ideological comrades, is telling them to get out. The livestreams provide invaluable intel on what the Gang of Four are thinking and planning.
posted by honestcoyote at 2:09 PM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Some great comments in this thread, the TMobile terrorist minutes plan for one.

Then this one, "If you skip ahead does Jesus show up?
posted by Artw at 8:22 PM on January 10"
posted by Oyéah at 2:17 PM on January 31, 2016

I think it's too coincidental that they were both cut off in the same 24 hrs, no? Also, while there is invaluable intel and many are telling them to surrender, there are plenty of those who are telling them their actions are heroic, enough to bolster fragile egos if you only focus on those and dismiss the rest as "they don't understand" or "they're just trolls."

If you listen to the available video streams, they were getting texts almost constantly, never mind the livestream chat where they'd get periodic boosts from those pretending or actually supporting them (even if it was only because it would keep the "show" going).

The FBI psychs/negotiators may have decided that the intel is outweighed by the fact that they continue to dig themselves deeper into intransigence, and enjoy the "eyes of the world" upon their supposed heroism. Having listened/watched almost all of what they've broadcast in the last four or so days, they are clearly stuck. Nothing new is coming out of their mouths, and they continue to spiral into rabbit holes of refusal to move. It makes sense to change things up to get things moving forward again. They have repeatedly made clear that they won't be talked down by Ammon Bundy or lawyers or anyone else. Even people they trust have been shot down by "This is what we're choosing, and that's that." So narrowing their information stream to what the FBI chooses to send may be the only option left.
posted by RedEmma at 2:23 PM on January 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

I dunno. My mobile phone plan is on a 30-day cycle. It could be something as simple as that.
posted by skybluepink at 2:25 PM on January 31, 2016

You know something that makes it impossible to access your contact list? Out of battery. If the power's off it could be as simple as that.
posted by irisclara at 2:31 PM on January 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

> I think it's too coincidental that they were both cut off in the same 24 hrs, no

If they were. I agree with your thinking on this, but I'm reluctant to take their word for it.
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:32 PM on January 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

As far as I know, they've been using their car batteries to charge the phones. However, yes, you would assume that they'd be running out of gas at some point.
posted by RedEmma at 2:37 PM on January 31, 2016

Re: Finicum's grazing grievance discussed above, I just want to make it clear what a ridiculously sweet, welfare-caliber deal he already had from the BLM. He was allowed to graze 160+ head of cattle on 17,000 acres of our public land from October through May, all for the low, low price of $1126/year as of 2014.

How much was he getting for each of the foster kids?
posted by sebastienbailard at 2:44 PM on January 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

Usually, you can graze foster kids on Federal land for free.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:51 PM on January 31, 2016 [29 favorites]

Migration Pattern of Bald Eagles aka Sure Signs From God
posted by mochapickle at 2:52 PM on January 31, 2016

Per this article:

Finicum told OPB the foster-care payments comprised a large share of his income. A 2010 tax filing showed Catholic Charities paid the family $115,343 in 2009.

As mentioned earlier, he didn't make any money on his cattle, aka he was a hobby rancher. The majority of his income was from fostering.
posted by zakur at 2:59 PM on January 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

I wonder if he worked them.
posted by Trochanter at 3:07 PM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trochanter: "Anyone wondering or wanting to know more about the Freemen-on-the-Land (et al) movement, a friend sent me an Alberta judge's ruling in a divorce case where, in order to save future courts' time, the judge researches and debunks the movement's tactics. The judge calls them "Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Argument [“OPCA”] Litigants"

It's long and I'm not through it yet, but it's very interesting and instructive so far."

This is absolutely awesome:

[312] Henry also has worn a literal ‘magic hat’! In the Alberta Court of Queen’s Bench Henry v. Starwood Hotels (1 September 2010) Edmonton 1003‑01152 (Alberta Q.B.) before Justice Shelley, Henry appeared wearing what is best described as ceremonial garb, with a robe and red fez, that he indicated had special significance. Subsequently, Henry has appeared in Chambers wearing what appeared to be a lawyer’s robes. It seems that Moorish Law advocates place special weight on court dress, particularly since Henry appealed Justice Shelley’s findings in part on the basis that he had garbed himself in a manner appropriate for the occasion, but she had not: Henry v. Starwood Hotels, 2010 ABCA 367 (CanLII) at para. 4, leave refused [2010] S.C.C.A. No. 475.

posted by brokkr at 3:07 PM on January 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

I keep forgetting that the Moorish Scientists are in deep with the SovCit thing too... I'd love to see Hakim Bey drop in to "support" the final four.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 3:17 PM on January 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

[On that note, maybe we should see if Grant Morrison would be interested in doing of graphic-novelization of the situation? With the SovCits having unwittingly gained access to real live magick incantations??]
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 3:21 PM on January 31, 2016

[312] Henry also has worn a literal ‘magic hat’! In the Alberta Court of Queen’s Bench Henry v. Starwood Hotels (1 September 2010) Edmonton 1003‑01152 (Alberta Q.B.) before Justice Shelley, Henry appeared wearing what is best described as ceremonial garb, with a robe and red fez, that he indicated had special significance.

I had a case like that once. The guy wore a jester's hat - the kind with several points in primary colours tipped with bells - to every appearance, across multiple courts with different judges.

Each time, the judge would ask "Pardon me, Mr X, but I must ask... why are you wearing that hat?"

"Well, your majesty (!) if you're going to treat me like a fool I'm going to a dress like a fool", he proclaimed.

This happened in eleven different court appearances. The transcripts were a hoot.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:22 PM on January 31, 2016 [7 favorites]

[On that note, maybe we should see if Grant Morrison would be interested in doing of graphic-novelization of the situation? With the SovCits having unwittingly gained access to real live magick incantations??]

You mean Escape from Terra?
posted by Talez at 3:26 PM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Deb Jordan says she interviewed David Fry this morning at 5 a.m. Pacific. (Audio from Santilli's channel). She speaks verrrry slowly with... lots.... of.... pauses. So highlights:

1. She comments on her close personal connection with David and how much he trusts her with what could be his last message, but she repeatedly refers to him as "David Key"
2. David feels betrayed by being left behind
3. David says the last person in leadership who spoke to him was LaVoy, who told him to stand by his post; says the only one who could get him to leave his post at this point is LaVoy himself
4. He says he's willing to die there; repeats that he doesn't want to hurt anyone
5. He doesn't want to go to prison out of a fear of being raped and tortured

We've heard much of this before.

She also says she put David's friend from Ohio on the line and they talked & she has audio of that, but she hasn't posted it.
posted by mochapickle at 3:43 PM on January 31, 2016

I guess it's pretty old news by now, but it really is striking what an invertebrate Ammon Bundy is. Not smart or authoritative enough to insist that Fry leave when he was broadcasting videos of himself violating federal computers and praising ISIS and Hitler, and now desperate to get him to "listen to reason" in the hope that it will look better if he can act as a peacemaker.

And this is the hero of the revolution?
posted by running order squabble fest at 3:48 PM on January 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

Metafllters explanation for anything they don't like: meth.
posted by telstar at 3:51 PM on January 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh god, their gonna wind up sending in a pepper's ghost of LaVoy mounted on top of some Boston Dynamics creature, aren't they?
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 3:52 PM on January 31, 2016 [7 favorites]

Metafilter: Explanation for anything they don't like, meh.
posted by Oyéah at 3:54 PM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

methafilter: you people are typing way too loud!!
posted by pyramid termite at 3:59 PM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oh god, their gonna wind up sending in a pepper's ghost of LaVoy mounted on top of some Boston Dynamics creature, aren't they?

They really should. With audio like the Dread Pirate Roberts and assorted WOOOOOO sounds.
posted by mochapickle at 4:04 PM on January 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

They really should. With audio like the Dread Pirate Roberts and assorted WOOOOOO sounds.

"Yo ho ho it's an occupier of a federal wildlife refuge life for me!"
posted by Talez at 4:18 PM on January 31, 2016

The Dread Pirate Roberts is here for your llluuuuuuuuubbbbbbee.
posted by 7segment at 4:24 PM on January 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

Just the B. D. Robots would be enough. Those things are creepy.

Send four. One for every man, woman, and child in Zion Malheur.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:50 PM on January 31, 2016

Sounds like they've shut down everyone's communication now.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:50 PM on January 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

As mentioned earlier, he didn't make any money on his cattle

Sometimes that can be like Hollywood bookkeeping, though. Such and such for the calves = new tractor, new truck for the farm (something nice, in case you've got to go to town)... adds up.

And it's all you. Yes the farm's an enterprise, and the tractor's for the farm, but it's all you. That's your tractor.

And if you're getting your labour free, or better than free...
posted by Trochanter at 7:19 PM on January 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

The FBI should simply drive a burrito truck up to the edge of the property, upwind from the stragglers, and just let the smell of fresh, hot burritos draw them out.

When Snoopy was trapped in his doghouse, pizza worked wonders. Are there any decent pizza places in the region?
posted by happyroach at 7:29 PM on January 31, 2016

Of interest to USian MeFites, State Defense Force(s) (i.e., non-National Guard state militia.)

Are there any decent pizza places in the region?

Oregon? I don't see how.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:32 PM on January 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

Ammon Bundy’s Wrongheaded History of Militias Is Getting People Killed

Ammon Bundy and his men wish to claim their place as heirs to the militia tradition. They see themselves as defending a free society against an oppressive federal government. What they fail to understand is that in American legal tradition, militias are placed under government control. Even the most ardent Anti-Federalist would have had little problem with the notion of state authorities placing strict regulations on their respective militias. Their principal objection was against the idea of the federal government creating a standing army more powerful than state militias. Viewed through this lens, Bundy’s “Citizens for Constitutional Freedom,” along with their 1990s forebears, are merely paramilitary bands. Referring to them as anything else is a gross misinterpretation of history.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:37 PM on January 31, 2016 [8 favorites]

These people somehow believe that LaVoy both "died with his hands up" and also "stood his ground". It's amazing how upside-down and backwards their worldview is.
posted by interrobang at 8:40 PM on January 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

zakur: " A 2010 tax filing showed Catholic Charities paid the family $115,343 in 2009."

So was the money he received for fostering coming from the State or from Churches?
posted by Mitheral at 8:47 PM on January 31, 2016

So was the money he received for fostering coming from the State or from Churches?

Yes. It's a convoluted setup. The federal government provides money to the states to administer foster care programs, which is then generally passed down to non-profit organizations licensed by the state, who then pay the foster parents reimbursement costs of caring for the kids. It's not supposed to be a revenue stream for the parents, but, well.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:53 PM on January 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

NYT: An Unwanted Circus Descends, and an Oregon Town Strives to Stay Kind
posted by hippybear at 9:23 PM on January 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

"Usually, you can graze foster kids on Federal land for free."

This is golden.
posted by Oyéah at 9:26 PM on January 31, 2016

Profit per animals would typically be $200-$400 per animal. However you don't sell your entire herd. He's selling say 40-60 animals. A good year is $20,000 from the ranch. More typical is maybe $8000-$10000. $1200/year in grazing fees doesn't seem particularly cheap under those economics.
posted by humanfont at 10:21 PM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Sure, but the problem there isn't the grazing fees. The problem there is that the entire economy around which small-scale ranching used to be viable has changed, but they still want to do things like their daddy/granddaddy/etc did.
posted by Archelaus at 10:31 PM on January 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

Wouldn't a Libertarian say that's the market telling you to stop doing that and do something else?
posted by ctmf at 10:32 PM on January 31, 2016 [16 favorites]

These people are no more properly Libertarian than they are Constitutional Scholars. /grins
posted by Archelaus at 10:39 PM on January 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Profit per animals would typically be $200-$400 per animal. However you don't sell your entire herd. He's selling say 40-60 animals. A good year is $20,000 from the ranch. More typical is maybe $8000-$10000.

So what? That's not the taxpayer's problem at all, unless you are admitting that the BLM is being run as a charity for many of these ranchers. He's free to buy his own 17,000 acres to graze and damage if he finds the BLM's price onerous. As it stands, he's benefiting substantially from government welfare because he's only paying a pittance of the ecological externalities caused by grazing his animals on public lands, and furthermore he's only even paying a tiny fraction of the market cost:

The federal livestock grazing program is heavily subsidized. The western livestock industry would evaporate as suddenly as fur trapping if it had to pay market rates for services it gets from the federal government. In 2015 the Center commissioned resource economists to study the costs of livestock grazing on public lands. We found that the federal lands grazing program generated $125 million less than what the federal government spent on the program in 2014. Further, we found that federal grazing fees are 93 percent less than fees charged for non-irrigated western private grazing land, or just $1.69 per animal per month for each cow and calf that grazes the public land. (It costs more to feed a house cat.)

Despite the extreme damage done by grazing, western federal rangelands account for less than 3 percent of all forage fed to livestock in the United States. If all livestock were removed from public lands in the West, in fact, beef prices would be unaffected. [pdf of this full report]

posted by dialetheia at 10:43 PM on January 31, 2016 [28 favorites]

Incidentally, there would probably be better citations for the ecosystem impacts of BLM grazing programs if the BLM hadn't blocked the use of grazing data for use in impact studies and ecoregional assessments.
posted by dialetheia at 11:01 PM on January 31, 2016 [11 favorites]

Oh, the Reasons just keep on giving.

[25] The trial of this matter opened on an ambiguous note. After the case was called, the record reflects the following occurred:

    THE CLERK:  Kirk Marshall Galbraith.

    MR. GALBRAITH:  Is the court calling a fictitious entity or the sovereign natural person?

    THE COURT:  Who are you, sir?

    MR. GALBRAITH:  I am the sovereign natural person under common law, Kirk Marshall Galbraith.

    THE COURT:  Congratulations.

    [...]

    MR. HOFFMAN:  Your Honour, are we proceeding under the assumption that the accused has
        absconded within Section 475 or are we proceeding with the assumption that Mr. Galbraith,
        who is standing in the courtroom --

    THE COURT:  I'm not going to find him to have absconded when he's standing here even though
        he is not making much sense.

posted by brokkr at 1:22 AM on February 1, 2016 [15 favorites]

MR. GALBRAITH: Well, there was no transcript so there's -- so there's no process hearings the way I see it. You know, there -- there is so -- it's the old thing again, there's one rule for those in power and who are paid by the powers, the money powers of the world. There's basically ten families that run the whole world, my goodness.

The learned trial judge rejected this line of defence.

So, when we say "money powers"...

Oh dear.
posted by running order squabble fest at 1:49 AM on February 1, 2016

(Like, sometimes, rather than finding another word for the Jewish conspiracy you believe controls the world, maybe avoid mentioning it altogether? For the sake of novelty, if nothing else?)
posted by running order squabble fest at 5:09 AM on February 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

Cox's antics have caused the judge to order her to come back to get an ankle bracelet monitor and have another hearing. (Complete lack of contrition likely didn't help either). She seems like she didn't bother to read her conditions for release and thinks the courts made some mistake and just forgot to issue her a bracelet. The thing is, O'Shaughnessy was given the requirement upon release while Cox expressly was not. So something changed.

She did a second interview (half hour audio) and her thoughts are a bit more collected but she accepted the first interviewers suggestion that LaVoy left the vehicle to draw fire and save their lives in a heroic gesture of fatherly concern especially for Sharp ... after flee police and crashing his vehicle ... reckless endangerment maybe more apt. One comment she made (in the first interview) that threw me was her seeming certainty Finicum was wearing a bulletproof vest. I was waiting for her second interview to see if she was going to clarify, because this seems like something the FBI would report. Also, I can't find anything where Finicum looks clearly armored up. I know Cavalier and Payne had vests of some sort, Ryan Bundy looks bulky at times but he is stocky, so call it a wash. Ammon, I'm leaning not (again, bulky by times, but cold weather and stocky build would be a better explanation), especially since there was an image they thought they were going for. Her information of course needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt, but it is interesting how perceptions play and memories and stories work. I think it is years of listening to CSPAN that makes me not mind listening to raving lunatics, once you know the agenda you can still find interesting puzzle pieces. Like both Cox and Sharp believed they were being shot at for 5 to 10 minutes. The video show it was around 2 minutes of concussion (flash bang grenades) and sponge rounds. But it speaks to how time expands when you are under duress and the sensory disorientation power of a flash bang. But now with time to process everything and perhaps view the video more, she walked back the time of bombardment to unknown. She still believes it was bullets hitting the vehicle and claims 5 bullets hit the window and thinks it was either the angle or more likely God answering their prayers. Again, it is a true claim (window was hit) but that it was bullets and divine intervention rendering the glass impenetrable is preposterous. The FBI claims are actually reinforced. Here is a nine bang flash bang another in confined space.

She also talks about her son in laws death. One condition of her returning home was that there be no guns there. So she had her guns sent to her daughters and they were put in an equipment building. Her son in law was in the building working into the night, took a break and fell asleep in a chair front of a fire that was going. The fire caught the building on fire and he was killed but Cox seemed equally upset her guns burned and ammunition all popped off and that would explain the confusion as to whether it had been a fire or explosion.

Another audio interview (nothing groundbreaking), with one of the triage centers gunmen, details the day and arrest of O'Shaughnessy. They had just gotten in a vehicle when the FBI called the driver and told him that there had been a shooting and injuries and told them that everyone would be free to leave. Asked if he had contact with the refuge to pass along the message. The call ended and a police car pulled up behind them followed by a federal vehicle. Agents came out with weapons drawn, and told everyone to keep their hands up and away from their weapons. The passenger door was opened and O'Shaughnessy was asked to step out of the vehicle. He did and disappeared in the blink of an eye. Things calmed slightly. They were identified and let go. They hurriedly packed and headed out to warn others but by then most people had fled or were fleeing.


John Sepulvado tweeted out a thought, but they aren't couched in reply so makes linking hard, but is worth reading so am patching them together a bit and pasting them;

So. Today is the 29th day of the occupation. And for me, it's been the quietest. Normally I get many calls, texts, etc ... today's been (smiley face with zipper across mouth). Of course, that doesn't mean anything isn't happening, and I'm sure other reporters are keeping tabs on plenty. But I keep thinking about my last interview with Ammon Bundy, and the last question I asked him, which is if he was worried about the people coming to the compound. The fact that many seemed unstable or desperate. And he said no he wasn't.

I talk to a lot of folks, including politicians supportive of the Bundy's, and one told me that David Fry, Sean Anderson, et al ... weren't part of the movement. They weren't with the Bundy's. They weren't in Bunkerville. They didn't know anyone. These politicians have also told me that this arrest, and subsequent hold out, isn't how this whole thing is supposed to go down. And then, there's a possibility that David Fry gave his last words to Pete Santilli's assistant. And also botches his name.

Meanwhile, Ammon Bundy - who said this wasn't ever supposed to be an armed standoff- will sit in jail until the occupation clears and so he's begging them to leave. But they won't. They bought into it. They bought the rhetoric, they bought the imagery. And so we have a standoff. Not between the FBI and the occupiers, but between Ammon Bundy the person and the world he created. Because it was Ammon Bundy who called for "patriots" to come. And it was Ammon Bundy who described this occupation as "providence". And it was Ammon Bundy who - as he told me the last time we spoke- didn't worry about the people coming. Of course he didn't. He didn't worry because he didn't know them. He didn't know these folks were desperate and angry and did something nobody else *really* did they believed him. Ammon Bundy has made a mess - politics, law, all that aside- he's a failed leader because he had no idea who followed him and I hope for the sake of those misguided folks, the employee, the town - all of us - that Ammon Bundy is once again bailed out ... and his failure as a leader doesn't result in the loss of life, occupiers or law enforcement.
posted by phoque at 5:13 AM on February 1, 2016 [14 favorites]

The western livestock industry would evaporate as suddenly as fur trapping if it had to pay market rates for services it gets from the federal government.

In fairness, the same is true for everything else we heavily subsidize, from big ag to federal highways. The grazing subsidies probably make more sense thought of as a complicated transfer payment system for helping to keep the rural west on life support, particularly after the collapse of most other resource extraction industries (which were of course also heavily subsidized and also suffered from gross federal mismanagement). Personally I don't care about raising the payments, but I would start tightening the environmental restrictions every year. There are ecological benefits to grazing and to local land management, but only when done correctly and carefully managed, and I would make those BMPs a requirement for accessing federal grazing land, as well as lower grazing numbers to a more sustainable level.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:28 AM on February 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

"More typical is maybe $8000-$10000. $1200/year in grazing fees doesn't seem particularly cheap under those economics."

Yeah, the issue is that these welfare queens already receive a government-subsidized 90% discount off market rates for grazing fees, and are SO PISSED IT'S NOT FREE that they're willing to host repeated armed standoffs. If they were paying market rates to a private landowner, they'd be paying literally 10 times as much. If the government simply handed them the land for free, they would still be paying more, because the upkeep costs on the land far outrace what they're paying the government -- not to mention the property taxes they'd now be liable for. They are both greedy and stupid, as well as the sort of selfish where they want other taxpayers to subsidize their expensive and damaging lifestyle choices, but totally reject the notion they should in turn pay taxes.

And that Canadian divorce case is some very entertaining reading, for real. I also now realize I used to know a sovereign citizen who was always insisting we address him as "John-Paul of the Family Smith" and if we called him "John" or "Mr. Smith" he'd fly batshit off the handle, and his rules for addressing his wife were even more arcane. (Something like "Jane-Jessica born to the Family Roe tied in holy wedlock and under the protection of the Family Smith.") To be honest, at the time, I just assumed he was the sort of SFF/D&D fan who lost track of reality and was living in some sort of imaginary feudal society where he was a knight protecting his honor ... as that kind of crazy is more common in the crowds I run in. Reading the Canadian "Reasons" made me be like, "Ohhhhhhh, no, he was sovereign-citizen nuts, not too-many-fantasy-epics nuts!"

I do wonder what makes these people think the value of their future labor is $10 million or whatever some of them think are in their secret government slave accounts. A large percentage of these people are net receivers of government benefits, and basically none of them will reach anything like the numbers they suggest in lifetime earnings, even if we pretend (like they do) that all the government benefits they receive are imaginary and ignorable.

I realize the block you'd come down to every single time is that they don't understand fiat currency EVEN A LITTLE so they can build vast imaginary edifices on that lack of understanding, and you'd never really be able to logic them out of it because there's just a basic failure to understand what money is or how money works.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:37 AM on February 1, 2016 [12 favorites]

The judge said he would not release anyone until the standoff ends, that does not imply a promise to release the Bundy's when it finally does end. We don't know what happened exactly during Friday's denial of bail, the government opposed bail entirely calling both Bundy's, Payne and Santelli a danger to the community and flight risks, on top of the likelihood of returning to the standoff. The end of the standoff, assuming it comes peacefully, changes only one of those factors, also notwithstanding any additional charges. I think Bundy's lawyers and supporters are reading way too much into the judge's initial statements.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:39 AM on February 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Eyebrows - all that stems from one basic thing I think. We need to bring back spanking ... for adults.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 5:46 AM on February 1, 2016

The grazing subsidies probably make more sense thought of as a complicated transfer payment system for helping to keep the rural west on life support

So, "welfare" then?
posted by spitbull at 5:53 AM on February 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

The government has a near monopoly on available grazing lands. There is no free market price. Furthermore there is plenty of evidence showing that grazing plays an important role in the ecosystem. Two centuries ago there were tens of millions of buffalo grazing this land. Finally ranching is a key part of the western economy.
One unreported consequence of this standoff has been that it has undermined a lot of the bridge building going on in the west between the BLM, environmentalists and ranchers. The relationship between the three had been improving a lot in recent years.
posted by humanfont at 6:44 AM on February 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

All the more reason to come down hard on those who took up arms rather than work within established legal and administrative channels.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:47 AM on February 1, 2016 [11 favorites]

Furthermore there is plenty of evidence showing that grazing plays an important role in the ecosystem.

Sure, but the current system appears to be built on overgrazing with very little oversight.
posted by sneebler at 6:58 AM on February 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

But maybe you miss my point. If all the guns outside go away, then what reason do they have for having a gun?

So they can keep on abusing the land around the refuge, either by overgrazing or by riding ATVs, much to the consternation of the Paiute Indians, who have never signed a treaty relinquishing the land.
posted by ocschwar at 7:13 AM on February 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

t is relatively new, the ID issue, but the numbers of people working the religious/slave economy, and the amount of income is astronomical.

Does anyone have any more information about this economy? There must be some reporting on it.

Also, and I feel weird for asking for this, but I watched Jon Ronson's show about Ruby Ridge this weekend, and apart from the guy (Weaver) being noxious, it was so deep into the story as told by the Weavers that it made even the reasoning behind the government's actions seem completely flawed. Does anyone have a link to good reporting about Ruby Ridge?
posted by OmieWise at 7:21 AM on February 1, 2016

Ammo appealing the detention order tomorrow
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:28 AM on February 1, 2016

Ammo appealing the detention order tomorrow

I hope the prosecution comes back with something along the lines of "remember the last few times he tried this shit?"
posted by Talez at 7:42 AM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Weekend Edition Sunday devoted nearly 12 minutes to Ruby Ridge yesterday. It might be worth a read/listen. (article below listen link, transcript link above the photo)
posted by hippybear at 7:46 AM on February 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

The government has a near monopoly on available grazing lands.

Only in the west. The BLM is charging 7% of the market rates available by private landowners in other states. That's because grazing lands in the east are pressured by their viability as crop lands which, to be quite frank, make way more money as crop lands. Like the minimum wage, rates for grazing rarely go up, having not gone up since 2007.

The federal appropriations for the BLM in 2014 were $143 million. The grazing receipts were $18.5 million. As someone who has already paid thousands of fucking dollars to DHS and is going to get gouged another $680 for the privilege to vote thanks to the mandate that immigrants get to fund the bloated bureaucracy, this is fucking disgusting to me.
posted by Talez at 7:50 AM on February 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

Maybe the fees should be taken directly from other subsidies to remove the fretting over whether to pay them or not?
posted by Artw at 7:59 AM on February 1, 2016

The grazing subsidies probably make more sense thought of as a complicated transfer payment system for helping to keep the rural west on life support.

The BLM has a total of 18,000 leases. Many ranchers have more than one lease. So you are talking about maybe 10,000 ranchers spread across Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Idaho, Montana, Nevada, New Mexico, Oregon, Washington and Wyoming. Most of these leases, especially on marginal land, could go away and nobody would notice. The rural west will be just fine. Compare that to the millions of people who use these lands for recreational purposes each year.
posted by JackFlash at 8:23 AM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Two centuries ago there were tens of millions of buffalo grazing this land.

bison ≠ cattle

Also, the elder Bundy & Finicum ranches are in Nevada. Bison were rare in the arid Great Basin and Columbia Basin habitats of Nevada, Utah and southern Idaho.

ranching is a key part of the western economy

Not so much, and even less when you look at public lands grazing.

Look, coal was a major part of the Appalachian economy, and ice hauling was a major part of the Great Lakes economy, and slaves were a major part of the Antebellum South. Economies evolve with technology and society, and those who don't evolve with them get left behind. Any government assistance should be to retool businesses and retrain people for a modern economy, not to indefinitely prop up obsolete industries for nostalgia's sake.
posted by zakur at 8:27 AM on February 1, 2016 [26 favorites]

Real estate markets are hyperlocal. You might as well argue that houses in Detroit are heavily subsidized because you can purchase one for 1/10th the price of the Bay Area. The BLM sets grazing fees and makes land available for lease based on a number of criteria including the overall market for beef as well as local conditions. Sometimes we they will even deliberately heavily graze specific pastures to eliminate an invasive species and then come in an replant with native species.
Obviously Lavoy and the Bundys should pay their fees. The fees are a fair deal and part of an emerging consensus between environmentalists, ranchers, local communities and the BLM. The claims that not only was the Lavoy bad for not paying, but he was getting a huge subsidy is not true, and also honestly something that just pushes the rural west back into a bunker mentality.
posted by humanfont at 8:30 AM on February 1, 2016

I'm sorry that economic reality offends you so.
posted by Artw at 8:34 AM on February 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

5 Things To Know As The Malheur Occupation Enters Day 31

Includes a nice timeline at the bottom.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:39 AM on February 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Okay. I've hit upon a solution taking into account LEO lives, the birding economy and the pressing migration, the Bundys, and reality show addicts.

You sedate them somehow by spiking their food/water/however. Then you transport them to a movie set that looks *exactly* like where they are now, and let the show go on as long as they feel committed to their cause. Everyone gets to watch Big Bubba in the Wilderness, and these guys get to have their visions of eagles supporting them, and all is well. You can even put a few bucks into a savings account for them so they aren't too pissed off when they figure out they're on TV.
posted by RedEmma at 8:41 AM on February 1, 2016 [11 favorites]

So, "Trumanize" them?
posted by benito.strauss at 8:58 AM on February 1, 2016

Real estate markets are hyperlocal. You might as well argue that houses in Detroit are heavily subsidized because you can purchase one for 1/10th the price of the Bay Area.

That makes no sense whatsoever as an analogue - the government isn't renting those publicly owned houses to anyone at 93% discounts. If they were, I guarantee that people would call it welfare.

Furthermore there is plenty of evidence showing that grazing plays an important role in the ecosystem. Two centuries ago there were tens of millions of buffalo grazing this land.

I'd like to see you look a sage grouse in the eye and say that. Grazing by buffalo was not a large factor in the Finicum's and Bundy's backyards, and even if it had been, not all grazing is created equal. When considering the ecological impacts of disturbance, we have to consider frequency, intensity, and duration - all of which are substantially different under the current allotment system than they were under the limited, very spread-out grazing that would of occurred with native buffalo stocks. Besides, most of the positive grazing impact research is only true for very limited ecosystem services - e.g. there is a mild boost in productivity post-grazing - but vastly outweighed by the detrimental effects of grazing at the BLM allotment scale: soil compaction, stressing native bunchgrasses, streambank denuding, stream channelization, trampling rare plants, aiding and abetting cheatgrass invasion, changes to fire regime caused by cheatgrass invasion, etc etc.

One unreported consequence of this standoff has been that it has undermined a lot of the bridge building going on in the west between the BLM, environmentalists and ranchers. The relationship between the three had been improving a lot in recent years.

The thing that pisses me off the most about these guys throwing such a fit is that the BLM has already allied largely with ranchers, taking up their side of things, blocking free use of data for objective assessments, and explicitly pushing against environmental interests in favor of ranchers. I have friends who have actually left their jobs at the BLM after being pressured to rubber-stamp grazing assessments despite the ecological evidence. If you have any doubts that the BLM is already on these ranchers' side, just take a look at the transparent lobbying by the BLM/Interior against listing the sage grouse as endangered. Everyone was "very hopeful" that they could get away with some halfassed measures instead of having to address the fact that 75% of their habitat is on BLM grazing lands - and lo and behold, the sage grouse was not listed despite plenty of evidence for their population decline and shrinking habitat, and with only tentative measures to restore their habitat. They don't even cut off grazing during nesting season, and most of the conservation efforts are on a voluntary basis:

The Bureau of Land Management is working with ranchers who run cattle on public land to craft voluntary conservation agreements similar to those in place for private lands. Of Oregon's 10.2 million acres of publicly owned sage grouse habitat, 22,500 acres are covered by such agreements. Another 2.2 million acres await enrollment.

So yes, for these guys to come into Harney County - an epicenter of government-ranching cooperation, even! - and throw an entitled whiny fit about having to pay a mere pittance for causing a great deal of lasting damage to public lands, when that very agency just this year took their side over environmental groups and blocked the listing of an endangered species just to protect their way of life (a service that is not provided for the vast majority of Americans, just this particular class of land-owning white guys)... it's monumentally privileged and entitled, and everyone should understand that these guys are already getting a very sweet deal on our public lands and a great deal of protection and economic subsidy from the government.

Now, again, that's not to say that these ranchers should be pushed out of business or anything, but I agree strongly with Dip Flash that environmental restrictions need to be placed on those allotments. We should be much smarter and more targeted with where and when those cattle are allowed to graze, and I would prefer to see grazing prices rise faster and not be based on a base value from 1966. Any additional funds collected from grazing should go to eradicating cheatgrass and protecting sage grouse habitat. But most of all, I would like to see these guys stop pretending they're getting the short end of the stick and being oppressed by the government when in fact they are getting generous subsidies to support their way of life.
posted by dialetheia at 9:18 AM on February 1, 2016 [49 favorites]

The government has a near monopoly on available grazing lands.

There are about 900,000 livestock operations in the U.S. and only 3% depend on public lands. 97% operate exclusively on private land.
posted by JackFlash at 9:21 AM on February 1, 2016 [17 favorites]

Fantastic comments, dialethia. I'm finding them very informative.
posted by Miko at 9:51 AM on February 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

From the last thread:

The Oregon Militia Is Picking the Wrong Beef With the Feds

Now, it's clear that what the Malheur militiamen appear to be demanding—essentially laissez-faire land management based on private ownership and overseen by local politicians—is a recipe for ecological ruin. In a recent New York Times op-ed, environmental historian Nancy Langston described what happened last time such a policy regime prevailed in the area: "By the 1930s, after four decades of overgrazing, irrigation withdrawals, grain agriculture, dredging and channelization, followed by several years of drought, Malheur had become a dust bowl."

But the real beef that struggling ranchers should take up with the federal government involves not zealous federal regulation, but rather its opposite: the way the feds have watched idly as giant meat-packing companies came to dominate the US beef production chain. Ranchers run what are known as cow-calf operations—they raise cows up to a certain weight on pasture, sell them to a feedlots to be fattened on corn and soybeans (and other stuff), and from there the cows are sold to companies known as beef packers that slaughter and prep the meat for consumers. As the University of Missouri rural sociologist Mary Hendrickson points out, after a decade of mergers and acquisitions, just four companies slaughtered and packed 69 percent of US-grown cows in 1990. By 2011—after another spasm of mergers—the four-company market share had risen to 82 percent, Hendrickson reports.
posted by Artw at 10:00 AM on February 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

(with apologies to Mr. Gibson)


Idiocracy is already here- it is just not very evenly distributed.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 10:02 AM on February 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

"So they want to go back to being a British Colony? Is that what they are saying, they want us back over there, ruling over them? Fine by me."

Does this mean that, in militiaspeak, “Britain” now refers to the Federal Government and its evil machinations, the way that in Rastafarian parlance, “Babylon” refers not to an ancient civilisation between the Tigris and Euphrates but to capitalism/imperialism/The Man?
posted by acb at 10:20 AM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yeah, that sounds about right. It's like they took a wrong turn at PKD's Black Iron Prison
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 10:25 AM on February 1, 2016

We need to bring back spanking ... for adults.

Bring back?
posted by bongo_x at 10:38 AM on February 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

"But most of all, I would like to see these guys stop pretending they're getting the short end of the stick and being oppressed by the government when in fact they are getting generous subsidies to support their way of life."

I am even willing to buy the argument that the government SHOULD support some (smaller amount of) heritage ranching, because the human history of the development of an area is important too.

However, I think that whenever someone makes that argument, they should be required to append the phrase, "You know, like they do in France," or they're not allowed to make it. So Ammon Bundy can say, "The government needs to allow cheaper and more intensive grazing on federal lands and stop environmental interference with cattle operations because our agricultural history is important and we need to support even unprofitable heritage ranching operations with generous government subsidies to maintain that heritage. You know, like they do in France."

Forcing them to constantly admit what they actually want is European-style agricultural protectionism enforced by a strong, market-interfering government that subsidizes inefficient heritage-style farming operations to protect an outdated way of life -- again, something I think has real value and governments should probably do! -- would solve like a good 75% of the problem.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:40 AM on February 1, 2016 [46 favorites]

Though they should probably admit they largely have that in the shape of the BLM also. Maybe they should prefix everything with "So, the BLM are doing a great job for us, but..." as well.
posted by Artw at 10:46 AM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Finicum wasn't in the cattle business per se, he was feeding around 20 people with the beef. He was reporting as much income from anything as he cared to. By his own statements he was in the foster care business. Having eleven, or in the case of Shawna Cox, 12 kids, is expensive. Finicum was feeding the foster kids on top of his eleven kids. There is little industry but grazing down on the Arizona Strip. I think they must also have run out of timber there, on the Kaibab forest. Fredonia did have a lumber industry at one time.

This is the bite about the Arizona Strip and all the land north of the Grand Canyon down there. It all drains into the Colorado, seeping through eons of sand. The topsoil is barely a crust. These people are idealogues, not ranchers. If they were in the ranching business, they'd be making money at it and too busy to beg or demand, as these people are.

Native Americans inhabited these areas for thousands of years, living minimally.

An interesting place is The Pipe Spring National Monument. It is right near Cane Beds and Kanab. It is a fort and Pony Express/stage stop, that captures a rich spring inside its walls. The story used to be about how they had to fight off the Indians, now the Kaibab Band of Paiute Indians runs the monument. Water issues were paramount then, they captured the spring and ran it out to ponds to feed horses and livestock. I was delighted to see the place run by a local tribe.

This area had cheap land. Those who were not fundamentalist holdouts came for the many reasons they did, mainly it was cheap. Then families want to be near each other, but the land doesn't really support huge families or a lot of grazing animals. Yet you go twenty, thirty miles west and I-15 is there and St. George, a heavily populated retirement community where property values are very high. The city has all sorts of sophisticated amenities.

These "ranchers" feel they deserve subsidies for living a nineteenth century ideal, and they are massively subsidized. Giant family, big tax break, 5K per year fed money for college, per kid, and there are a lot more breaks I can't even come up with. So, they still can't make it, at least in the style they think they deserve, because of their devotion? No matter what kind of message they want to put forth, the reality is they have overpopulated their bank accounts, and they want others to magically stretch the horizon for them.
posted by Oyéah at 11:05 AM on February 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

We need to bring back spanking ... for adults.
posted by AGameOfMoans
(eponysterical)
posted by Oyéah at 11:07 AM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

The issue for the Bundyites isn't the cost of leases. After all, it is only a pittance, $1.69 a month per cow-calf unit. So they pay about $13.50 in fees to raise a calf that they sell for $1600 or so. The grazing fee is less than 1% of the price of the calf. They pay much more that that for feed supplement, vaccinations, inseminations, labor, etc.

No, their issue with grazing leases isn't the cost, which is trivial, it is that they have to pay anything at all -- that the land isn't entirely theirs to do whatever they want, whenever they want.

The vast majority of ranchers get along well the BLM. The requirements are very simple. Only allow the agreed number of cows on public land at the agreed seasons of the year. Keep your cattle out of restricted ecologically sensitive areas. Have respect for the land. That's it.

But the Bundys and Hammonds are the tiny few who can't abide by the simple rules. The Hammonds trespassed on public land with their cows in seasons when not allowed. They tore down fences placed to protect sensitive ecological areas. They set illegal fires on public land. They hunted coyotes illegally from their airplane on public land. They ran off hunters legally hunting on public land by brandishing weapons. They issued death threats to the lives of BLM employees and even their families and children.

So it isn't a cost issue. It's that they demand total control and ownership of public lands and the right to keep anyone else from using it. And it is a tiny selfish, sociopathic few. And for this they want to tear down and abolish the existing government.
posted by JackFlash at 11:10 AM on February 1, 2016 [22 favorites]

900,000 livestock operations includes a wide range of animals (not just cows, but also sheep, pigs, chickens, turkeys, goats, etc), which have different markets and different land use needs.

I'd like to see you look a sage grouse in the eye and say that.

Here is an example of the kinds of programs underway to set aside specific land for grouse habitat and change grazing practices to help support the Sage Grouse.
posted by humanfont at 11:12 AM on February 1, 2016

The vast majority of ranchers get along well the BLM.

Has anybody talked to any of Finicum's neighbors? Because he's shaping up to be a certain type of operator that is fairly familiar. The borderline fraudulent corner cutting etc. is just a particular kind of guy, and it typically extends to all his dealings. Usually everybody in the countryside knows who they are.
posted by Trochanter at 11:16 AM on February 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Well good.

I like birds better than sociopathic shitbags.
posted by Artw at 11:16 AM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Has anybody talked to any of Finicum's neighbors?

Given that Finicum's neighbors are wacko Mormon fundamentalist polygamists, the answers would be interesting.
posted by JackFlash at 11:19 AM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

So they pay about $13.50 in fees to raise a calf that they sell for $1600 or so

I'm not saying this to excuse Finicum, but I've been to cattle auctions and it doesn't seem you'd get anywhere near that for a single calf. I think even if you mean raising it to full grown beef cattle weight, it's still under $1000.
posted by Miko at 11:41 AM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Idaho 3%ers / PPN protest at the county courthouse delivered a petition for the resignation of all county officials and arrest of the FBI special agent in charge.

Looks like very few of the pro-Bundy militia groups are from Oregon, which seems to undermine their theories of the local sheriff as the ultimate legal authority. But moon law may not have contemplated the issue of standing yet.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:47 AM on February 1, 2016

I think even if you mean raising it to full grown beef cattle weight, it's still under $1000.

From your own link, a 9-month old steer is about 600 pounds at $279 per hundred-weight which comes out to $1674.
posted by JackFlash at 11:47 AM on February 1, 2016

And if you were wondering how much more terrible they could get, the answer is none. None more terrible.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:48 AM on February 1, 2016

"Hands up and down and occasionally reaching for a gun, don't shoot" being less snappy.
posted by Artw at 11:58 AM on February 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

KOIN is covering the protests outside the Harney County Courthouse.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:00 PM on February 1, 2016

Today in Burns, a counter protest.
Stand down! Leave our town! (short video clip) on twitter
posted by yertledaturtle at 12:02 PM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Here is an example of the kinds of programs underway to set aside specific land for grouse habitat and change grazing practices to help support the Sage Grouse.

Yes, my point exactly - a lot of voluntary rounding-error local-scale stuff that won't actually help at a landscape scale unless something is done to reduce grazing pressure on their habitat and rehabilitate the damage that has already been done via cheatgrass invasion. Here's a good primer on the ecology behind non-native grazing, cheatgrass invasion, and sage grouse habitat encroachment for you, courtesy a USFWS researcher in Nevada who has worked on these issues for years.

Now, grazing can even have a role in rehabilitating those invaded systems if grazing pressure is focused on systems that are already dominated by cheatgrass! But in landscapes that have not already been invaded, cattle grazing stresses native plants and disrupts the stabilizing biocrust on the soil, which creates points of invasion for cheatgrass. The main recommendations for avoiding further cheatgrass spread are to reduce soil disturbance and seed spread, both of which are exacerbated by non-native grazing (and especially unregulated grazing out of season, like Finicum was doing).

Cheatgrass invasion changes the fire regime of the sagebrush steppe altogether. Before cheatgrass, the native perennial bunch grasses on the sagebrush steppe naturally limited fire spread and intensity; there wasn't enough fine fuel to spread a fire very far, so you got low-intensity patchy burns on a fairly frequent basis. Cheatgrass, however, is an annual grass, which doesn't grow in patchy bunches but in a wide field of uniform fine fuels which die and dry out every year. Cheatgrass can spread fire far and wide and provides enough fuel to increase the intensity of the fire to the point where it kills sagebrush.

When the fire regime becomes more intense and more frequent, it wipes out nesting habitat for sage grouse because they need a certain height of bunch grass to build and protect their nests (not to mention the direct effects of fire). It also further deepens the cheatgrass invasion - annual grasses outcompete perennial bunch grasses immediately following a 'stand-replacing' fire in these ecosystems, and the cheatgrass is able to get an even more secure foothold in these ecosystems. This creates the conditions to cross the threshold into a new ecosystem state altogether, leading to a positive feedback loop that leads to more catastrophic wildfire and more cheatgrass (and in fact, this is one of the canonical examples of an ecosystem state & transition model [pdf link, see fig. 2])

In landscapes that are not already dominated by cheatgrass, non-native grazing tends to put disproportionate pressure on bunch grasses because they are more palatable than cheatgrass. According to the presentation I linked above, cheatgrass was reduced by 3480x in the presence of unclipped native perennials, but only by 242x in the presence of grazed native perennials, indicating that non-native grazing vastly decreases the resilience of the native sagebrush steppe ecosystem.

To bring it all back around, these are just some of the many reasons why Finicum's grazing out of season and the Hammonds' unauthorized fires were such ecological problems, and why their grazing fees should at the very least be viewed in light of the environmental externalities that arise from their activities.
posted by dialetheia at 12:03 PM on February 1, 2016 [25 favorites]

And if you were wondering how much more terrible they could get, the answer is none. None more terrible.

There is a weird parallel beauty in this because of how the original “Hands up, don’t shoot!” was also found to not have been true…
posted by Going To Maine at 12:06 PM on February 1, 2016

It was certainly murky as fuck in a way this pretty clearly isn't.
posted by Artw at 12:21 PM on February 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

The secret history of cowboy socialism
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:53 PM on February 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

The idea that non-Muslim, non-POC people do not get charged with terrorism does not hold up. The original stated reason for the militants being in Oregon was to protest the Hammonds having to finish serving their sentences from being charged and convicted of terrorism.

Those charges took some time, though.
posted by mountmccabe at 12:57 PM on February 1, 2016

It's annoying as fuck, because it's so extremely clear that they were being restrained. There's several points in the incident where a less-disciplined group of cops probably would have shot -- when they nearly run over a cop, the first couple of reaches for his waist. It's only when he has both a clear line of fire on a cop and his hands go down and stay down that they actually shoot him.
posted by tavella at 12:58 PM on February 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Hammonds having to finish serving their sentences from being charged and convicted of terrorism.

Can you provide a cite for that? I've looked around and can't seem to find the original charging documents. They were convicted of destruction of government property, is that a part of the terrorism statute? (Seriously asking, I don't know.)

I don't think it much matters to the larger argument, though. The exceptions tend to prove the rule.
posted by OmieWise at 1:15 PM on February 1, 2016

Hammonds having to finish serving their sentences from being charged and convicted of terrorism

Well, if by "terrorism" you mean, "maliciously damaging the real property of the United States by fire”, then sure.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:15 PM on February 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Mandatory constitution unit in high school, with American History, test about the constitution and all the amendments, they have to pass to graduate. They might also need a class in how the government works.

In Utah you have to have a parent note to see Obama speak.

There is a large lawsuit underway down on the Arizona Strip about local law enforcement selectively applying enforcement based on membership in the FLDS Church. Non FLDS that includes ex FLDS, mainstream LDS, and anyone else were discriminated against. This is a current topic in the sltrib.com.
posted by Oyéah at 1:15 PM on February 1, 2016

Well, never mind, I found a document from the Acting Oregon US Atty (pdf) that says that "The jury was neither asked if the Hammonds were terrorists, nor were defendants ever charged with or accused of terrorism. Suggesting otherwise is simply flat-out wrong."
posted by OmieWise at 1:19 PM on February 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm guessing mountmccabe's last comment must be an editing mishap that resulted in two separate ideas being mashed together. If not, it doesn't really jive with any narrative that I've seen.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 1:28 PM on February 1, 2016

The "Hands Up, Don't Shoot" and "Rural Lives Matter" bullshit is offensive on so many levels...

Not only is this sudden concern likely only just now important to them and expressed by them,
not only is it completely inaccurate in every way since Finicum was reaching for a gun after almost running over an agent as opposed to being flat-out shot for some completely non-justifiable action,
not only is it a completely mistargeted attempt to get some form of public sympathy on their side,
not only is it completely blind to the actual plight (or really ANY bit of knowledge) of the BLM movement - you know, the one that they lifted these ideas from...

it's yet another example in history of when black culture is shamelessly and thoughtlessly co-opted, copied, and taken up as integral to someone elses own culture, suddenly becoming important to them, with zero fucks given about the historical context or culture it was taken from. There is a long and very rich history of this throughout US history. Early on, one of the Bundys stated that he "wanted to be the one who wrote the history" or something like that - This is the sort of history that they would narrate as their own.
posted by MysticMCJ at 1:29 PM on February 1, 2016 [12 favorites]

it's yet another example in history of when black culture is shamelessly and thoughtlessly co-opted, copied, and taken up as integral to someone elses own culture, suddenly becoming important to them, with zero fucks given about the historical context or culture it was taken from.

I have not an ounce of belief that it's actually becoming integral or important to these schmucks in any way. It's purely an #alllivesmatter dig.
posted by Etrigan at 1:31 PM on February 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

"I talk to a lot of folks, including politicians supportive of the Bundy's, and one told me that David Fry, Sean Anderson, et al ... weren't part of the movement. They weren't with the Bundy's. They weren't in Bunkerville. They didn't know anyone ..."

Mongo ... only pawn in game of life.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:34 PM on February 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

No, I was actually under the impression that they were charged with terrorism, the mandatory minimums coming from the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996. I'm sure I read that somewhere, but that doesn't mean it's true.

More from the pdf OmieWise linked:

"For example, the federal prosecutor has never called the Hammonds terrorists, an allegation made by some of the Hammonds' supporters. As Acting U.S. Attorney, I do not consider them to be terrorists."

So I was mistaken.
posted by mountmccabe at 1:36 PM on February 1, 2016

To clarify: I'm sure I read they were charged with terrorism.

It is still my understanding that the mandatory minimums for the Hammonds came from the AEDPA, but it is my mistake for taking that act's name to be complete or accurate.
posted by mountmccabe at 1:39 PM on February 1, 2016

Here's a Lawsplainer on the Hammonds' charges.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:43 PM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

I want to second Miko's appreciation for dialethia's great comments in both Malheur threads.
posted by spitbull at 1:50 PM on February 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

>The secret history of cowboy socialism

I wonder how many of you have played "Red Dead Redemption." I mention it because one of the game's ways of getting you from event to event is these long horseback rides. Usually, you'll make these treks with non-player characters, and to pass the time, they'll have a long monologue as you ride with them.

They're for flavour and colour, but a few of them are these weird out-of-the-blue anti-government screeds, particularly from the ranching patriarch.

They jumped out quite a bit.
posted by Trochanter at 1:53 PM on February 1, 2016

That Pope hat article is good, but doesn't talk about the original charges. I still have found them, just the US Atty letter. It's definitely a militia talking point that they were charged with terrorism.
posted by OmieWise at 1:57 PM on February 1, 2016

The paramilitary criminal supporters are telling counter-protestors from Burns to go home. They are also being derisive if they leave by saying they have to go back to their government jobs.
posted by yertledaturtle at 2:00 PM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Found a reference on Oregon Live:

The men were convicted of arson, but under a provision of an expansive federal law punishing terrorism

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:02 PM on February 1, 2016

Multi stream of protest and counter protest in Harney county.
posted by yertledaturtle at 2:04 PM on February 1, 2016

yertle, that link is a trap.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:08 PM on February 1, 2016

The paramilitary criminal supporters are telling counter-protestors from Burns to go home.

Pretty ballsy for a bunch of dicks from Arizona.
posted by Artw at 2:08 PM on February 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

This comment (and the one following it) in the Popehat article seems to explain some of the confusion around the Hammonds and "terrorism" charges. In short, it looks like Slate dropped the ball and folks just ran with it.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 2:12 PM on February 1, 2016

yertle, that link is a trap.

haha. Yeah, I suppose you are right about that. My work to dilly-dally ratio is lopsided towards the dilly-dally side today.
posted by yertledaturtle at 2:14 PM on February 1, 2016

"It is still my understanding that the mandatory minimums for the Hammonds came from the AEDPA, but it is my mistake for taking that act's name to be complete or accurate."

The AEDPA is an omnibus bill that deals with a whole slew of criminal law issues, INCLUDING foreign terrorism (specifically identification of foreign terrorist groups, punishments for funding such groups, asylum claims relating to such groups, and local law enforcement funding for dealing with such groups) BUT ALSO deals with the death penalty (in general, not specifically relating to terrorism), various bomb-making and arson-related offenses, and habeus corpus -- which is where it gets picked up in a lot of otherwise totally non-terrorism-related criminal cases. (It's an absolutely terrible law, and only rarely are invocations of it related to terrorism; they're almost always related to habeus corpus. I actually had to stop and think what AEDPA stood for because in my head it's just a habeus corpus-related law.)

It's sort-of like they named it the (imaginary) Ketchup Is a Vegetable Omnibus Act and that's the bill that incidentally names ketchup a vegetable for import duty and school lunch purposes, but its bigger point was to slap you with a giant increase what cable companies are allowed to charge as fees. And you're like, "But I don't even subscribe to a ketchup-related channel, why are my monthly cable bills going up $8 because ketchup is a vegetable?" That's the joy of omnibus acts! (And that's why some state constitutions forbid them.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:17 PM on February 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

Try this one weird trick that Admiralty courts hate!
posted by entropicamericana at 2:35 PM on February 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

I really don't get this - one of these randos has self appointed himself a judge, and issued an 'arrest warrant' for the officers that shot Finicum.

But since these SovCit loons don't recognise the authority of the state or the judiciary, who is supposed to carry out the warrant?

And why do they recognise the Oregon Speaker of the House?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 2:40 PM on February 1, 2016

From your own link, a 9-month old steer is about 600 pounds at $279 per hundred-weight which comes out to $1674.

And if grazing was the only cost that would be a great deal. The expected profit on a steer is $250-$400. Furthermore the rancher has to maintain a large enough herd birth next years calves.

lot of voluntary rounding-error local-scale stuff that won't actually help at a landscape scale unless so
Small and local? The National Resource Conservation Service's Sage Grouse Initiative isn't some tiny local program. It has half a billion dollars, works with thousands of ranchers and is in the process of setting aside 8 million acres.
Like the Bundy's you appear to be clinging to outdated, adversarial approach that has been very divisive for the west these last few decades.
posted by humanfont at 2:40 PM on February 1, 2016

But since these SovCit loons don't recognise the authority of the state or the judiciary, who is supposed to carry out the warrant?

The "militia" apparently.
posted by Talez at 2:41 PM on February 1, 2016

The "militia" apparently.

The unidentified, undefined militia is supposed to arrest unidentified law enforcement officers on a made-up charge, on imaginary authority, for actions that did not occur?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 2:45 PM on February 1, 2016

Moon law? This is more like Pleiades Law.
posted by marienbad at 2:47 PM on February 1, 2016

humanfont, what's your overall conclusion? That things are fine as they are? That BLM grazing programs are not slanted in favor of ranchers? That ranching is important enough that none of this matters?

I'm just trying to get beyond the veiled insults to figure out what your position is and why.
posted by OmieWise at 2:47 PM on February 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

They'll be fucking outraged if said militia gets itself shot, too.
posted by Artw at 2:47 PM on February 1, 2016

The "militia" apparently.

More like a loosely organized band of armed criminals trying to usurp the role of an elected government by force of arms.
posted by yertledaturtle at 2:50 PM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Pete Santilli's detention order.

☑ "'Mental health issues"

I assume when he receives the order in his jail cell he's not going to be happy at all.
posted by Talez at 2:52 PM on February 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

I wish there were some details about that, otherwise it just looks like kitchen sink bullshit. My concern certainly isn't for Santilli, it's for deploying a stigmatizing phrase and thereby making it more stigmatizing.
posted by OmieWise at 2:59 PM on February 1, 2016

More like a loosely organized band of armed criminals trying to usurp the role of an elected government by force of arms

Y'know...at some point, someone's finally going to get tired of dealing with these bozos and decide "Fuck it." and charge them with sedition or treason and bring the actual, for real, oppressive force of the federal government down on their toy-soldier asses.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:59 PM on February 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

There's a lot of discussion of cattle prices today, as if ranching economics somehow justified an armed insurrection against the federal government. Which is what happened, in case some people forgot.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:01 PM on February 1, 2016 [14 favorites]

Shawna Cox's release conditions [PDF], for anyone that wants to keep tabs on how quickly these jerks manage to fuck up even more.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 3:01 PM on February 1, 2016

Small and local? The National Resource Conservation Service's Sage Grouse Initiative isn't some tiny local program. It has half a billion dollars, works with thousands of ranchers and is in the process of setting aside 8 million acres.

Those efforts are certainly better than nothing but they are focused only on private land, not BLM land, and they hardly even begin to address the BLM public grazing lands which comprise at least 65% of sage grouse habitat (depending on who does the math). What little they do with BLM grazing is, indeed, entirely voluntary:

While SGI focuses its work on private lands, home to 40 percent of the birds and many crucial resources like water, we also participate in projects on federal lands where ranchers have leases for grazing. [...] The Sage Grouse Initiative teams up with willing ranchers to customize grazing plans that will improve nesting, rearing, and wintering habitats for sage grouse. The Initiative then chips in to speed implementation so that the benefits of practices can be more quickly realized. [...] To date, the SGI partnership has carried out 2.6 million acres of improved grazing systems [out of 155 million acres of BLM grazing lands]

Besides, many of these efforts represent a last-ditch end-run around listing sage grouse as an endangered species, as is clear from this announcement of these initiatives. Even these mediocre attempts at dealing with the grazing impacts on sage grouse were introduced only under the threat of federal listing:

July 15 2015: The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS), part of the Interior Department, will decide by September 30 whether to list the greater sage-grouse as an endangered or threatened species under the 1973 Endangered Species Act (ESA).

The stakes are huge: Greater sage-grouse (or prairie chicken) habitat covers 165 million acres across 11 western states, but that is only half of what it used to be, the federal government says. At one time, the greater sage-grouse population likely numbered in the millions, but it is now estimated to be in the 200,000 to 500,000 range.

Two weeks ago, on May 28, the Interior Department’s Bureau of Land Management (BLM) and the U.S. Forest Service released a proposed land use plan that will conserve sagebrush habitat, address threats to the greater sage grouse and “promote sustainable economic development in the West.”

Also, it takes some serious nerve to call environmentalists "divisive" when ranchers are the ones throwing a secessionist hissy fit over their god-given right to free reign to degrade public land.
posted by dialetheia at 3:04 PM on February 1, 2016 [25 favorites]

There's a lot of discussion of cattle prices today, as if ranching economics somehow justified an armed insurrection against the federal government. Which is what happened, in case some people forgot.

No one has forgotten anything. I, for one, find the context of Western land policy and economic survival somewhat essential to understanding the incident. It's fun to be outraged and gobsmacked, but this is a social phenomena arising out of social and economic conditions. This background helps me to get a better sense of how people develop their worldview, in part as a result of the choices they have made to attempt to make a living.
posted by Miko at 3:07 PM on February 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

The "militia" apparently.

This is the potentially scary part. The lunatic fringe flaggers have been rubbing their heads together with regard to the issue of their wild west disempowerment, because of the routine rule of law. They are chafed that their poses don't empower. They don't understand that they are viewed as knuckleheads, and cosplayers. But they have talked themselves into this and they armed, anytime they want to they put on their end times, armageddon hats, and bobblehead with each other.

There is actually a viable, rural, farming and ranching culture in Utah. I met an awful lot of the fruit farmers along the wasatch, signing people up for the Utah's Own project, out of the Utah Department of Agriculture. A lot of these farmers were teachers who moonlighted growing fruit and vegetables. These people are down to earth, smart, and delightful. They are not short on smarts, sweet and hard working. This is just so you know I think highly of Utah's real farmers, ranchers, fruit growers, dairy farmers, grain growers, melon and nut growers, and vintners. They are a great group of people.

I don't know what is going on in these militia peoples' heads. Do they think the feds are preventing them from ranching?
posted by Oyéah at 3:09 PM on February 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Do they think the feds are preventing them from ranching?

Sort of, yes. That is, they believe they should be free to let their livestock graze wherever they want, but those damned Federal fences prohibit that exercise of God-given constitutional freedoms.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:14 PM on February 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

So when they get everything they want, they are going to ditch their town jobs, beat their AK's into plough shares and then work harder than they ever have in their lives? These guys are a coupla steps shy of behaving like Daesh.
posted by Oyéah at 3:17 PM on February 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

I, for one, find the context of Western land policy and economic survival somewhat essential to understanding the incident.

I think America's insane gun culture is more relevant than an economic and political discussion. So is the rise of the Sovereign Citizen function. Right wing talk radio has a lot more to do with "the incident" than land management. Also the general despair of middle aged lower income white dudes in contemporary America.

I said this upthread but I'll say it again: there is no possibility for a rational discussion of land management while armed seditionists are stealing public land.
posted by Nelson at 3:31 PM on February 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

the rise of the Sovereign Citizen fiction
posted by Nelson at 3:38 PM on February 1, 2016

And if grazing was the only cost that would be a great deal. The expected profit on a steer is $250-$400.

The point is that grazing fees are a tiny portion of the cost of getting a calf to market. They get about $1600 for the calf at auction and, say, $400 of that is profit. That means the cost of raising that calf is $1200. The grazing fee for that calf is $13.50, barely 1% of total costs. They could graze for free and it would barely make a difference to their bottom line.

It's quite clear that the complaints are not about grazing fees, which are insignificant. The complaints are about government control of public land. When they refuse to pay grazing fees, it isn't because of the high cost, which is really trivial. Refusal to pay is simply a symbolic defiance of government control and government rules for the lease. In fact both Cliven Bundy and Lavoy Finicum said they would be happy to pay their grazing fees to their "sovereign" county sheriff. They just refuse to pay anything to the Feds.
posted by JackFlash at 3:58 PM on February 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

From the "Ranchers Lives Matter" poster; in memory of Fincium. Sure typos happen (I am far far from immune), but this is a rather important element ... maybe it is a new element, an incredibly dense one, of unpredictable volatility.

Cliven Bundy thinks the refuge is his now.

The holdouts in an audio interview (6min) haven't changed their position but they want Franklin Graham (religious personality) to be their 3rd party negotiator. Also they have one phone line to use and if they try to call out with their own phones they get either an FBI agent answering or call can't be completed as dialed message.
posted by phoque at 4:00 PM on February 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Cliven Bundy thinks the refuge is his now.

What? The lazy fuck didn't even show up.
posted by Artw at 4:02 PM on February 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Furthermore the rancher has to maintain a large enough herd birth next years calves.

Perhaps it would help to explain how ranching works. Most of these western state ranches are called "cow-calf" opernations. They serve only to produce calves which are raised to the age of 8 or 9 months and sold to feedlots. The grazing leases are for a cow-calf pair -- $1.67 per month for the unit. There is not a separate charge for keeping next year's cows. The cow and calf are a unit. The ranch only keeps cows for breeding stock. All steers are sold off.

Let's assume a nice round number like 100 cows. Ideally the ranch keeps the same 100 cows forever and each year they get 100 calves. They keep the 100 cows and sell off the 100 calves each year.

But actually the pregnancy rate for cows is something like 80% to 90%. Let's say this is a Spring calving operation. The gestation period is about 9 months so you want to breed your cows in early summer. A couple months later you need to preg-check your cows. The reason for this is that you can't afford to keep and feed a cow over the winter if it isn't producing a calf. So any cows that are not pregnant get sent directly to the slaughterhouse, not a feedlot, because they are fully grown.

To preg-check cows you put them in a restraining chute and then you (or a vet) puts on a long shoulder-length latex glove -- Super-Sensitive are best -- pull up the cows tail, insert your arm up past the elbow into the cow's rectum so that you can feel the uterus. If you feel a small head in the uterus, the cow wins and you keep it. If you don't feel a head, that means the cow is not pregnant and goes directly to slaughter.

So starting with your 100 cows, and an 80% pregnancy rate, you send 20 non-pregnant cows to auction in early winter. The remaining 80 cows produce 80 calves in the Spring. 40 of these are steers (castrated bulls) and 40 are heifers. Steers are more valuable than heifers because they gain weight faster and grow bigger. You keep your 80 calves for another 8 months or so and get ready to sell them. But you keep 20 heifers to replace the 20 cows you sent to the slaughterhouse last winter. So all told, you send 60 calves to the feedlot (all 40 steers and 20 of the heifers). With the 20 new heifers you kept added to your herd now you are back to 100 cows and the cycle begins again.

Your profit comes from the 60 calves you sold and the 20 cows you sold. So from 100 cows each year you send to market 80 and maintain a constant herd size of 100 cows. Typical profit, all in, considering the 80% pregnancy rate is about $400 per cow (counting all 100). So your annual profit is $32,000.

Now 100 cows is a pretty marginal operation. Any bad luck and all your profit might evaporate. But if you have 1000 cows, you might make $320,000 per year as net profit.
posted by JackFlash at 4:14 PM on February 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

can i send a letter to someone claiming the wildlife refuge? if cliven bundy can do it, why can't i?
posted by pyramid termite at 4:14 PM on February 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

By the way, I want to be super clear that my intent is not to demonize ranchers. Many ranchers really are great stewards of the land and are on the front lines of important conservation work. My intent is just to demonstrate that the BLM has already bent over backwards to accommodate legacy grazing on public lands in the Mountain West and that these people are responding in a ridiculously entitled manner, given that the government is already largely giving them what they want with minimal interference (a tiny token payment and some bare-minimum restrictions on seasonality). The Bundys and Lavoy Finicum were given huge subsidies to access public land and have been continually protected from environmental and economic realities, and it still wasn't enough for them - they think they deserve everything, that all of our public land belongs to them just because we "aren't using it" for economic activity, or because their daddies were here first (they weren't), or whatever sovereign nonsense they're spouting today.

I just want it to be abundantly clear that the government is in no way doing wrong by these folks, and that in fact we are already going to pretty great lengths to appease this small sector of the livestock industry, with attendant environmental and economic costs. I agree with Eyebrows McGee upthread when she said that there are even a lot of valid reasons to support these transfer payments, but that we should be clear about what is going on. If we were more honest about the transfer payments that subsidize rural life in America, our discussion about welfare and social safety nets would likely look very different, and that is part of why I think it's important that we recognize that these guys were already the beneficiaries of government largesse before they decided that wasn't enough for them and they should bring their guns to a public wildlife refuge and demand that the government hand over 155 million acres of our land for free.
posted by dialetheia at 4:16 PM on February 1, 2016 [21 favorites]

Cox looks like she was legally released but it was premature and the death (of son in law) doesn't seem to have been a factor for letting her out.

Refuge occupier Shawna Cox released from jail
There is some discrepancy on whether Cox should have been released Friday evening or not. According to staff at the clerk’s office, Cox should not have been released until a formal order was signed. However, Eric Oss, a U.S. District Court deputy clerk, said that if a judge’s order is given in open court, it is considered an order that must be followed by the Marshals.

I was concerned there had been some screw up that would cause problems, but it appears minor to inconsequential.
posted by phoque at 4:17 PM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Cliven Bundy thinks the refuge is his now.

Let's hope that's evidence of an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy.

And the "common law judge" Bruce Doucett has started the next phase, with fake arrest warrants from the "common law jury" to arrest FBI agents.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:27 PM on February 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

I've seen some chants and calls of "four lives matter" today. Maybe the Bundy hold is weakening a little as the rank-and-file decide to accept the occupiers they have, warts and all.
posted by honestcoyote at 4:37 PM on February 1, 2016

Here is Bruce Doucett's facebook, lots more contrived stuff.

The thing that I always find funny about the made up Safety Committee (two members signed the letter) is that when it was being set up, the people gathered to get it started were told they should select either 5 or 7 people, so that if there were votes they could avoid deadlock. But somehow this was missed and they split the difference and ended up with a committee of 6. Their first act of business was accepting a letter telling the Bundy's to leave (accepted with unanimous yes vote). But the vote to deliver the letter ended in a 3-3 tie. Everyone sort of shrugged and that was that.
posted by phoque at 4:38 PM on February 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

That Facebook link isn't working for me, but I'm never sure if it's because I'm not on Facebook.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:43 PM on February 1, 2016

It's the FEC of made up grand juries.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:44 PM on February 1, 2016

'Don't Tread On Me' Flag Appears On BLM Building Near Burns
posted by hippybear at 4:46 PM on February 1, 2016

Facebook links are weird. I created a throw away account just to look at the silliness, because Facebook sometimes will show stuff that is listed as public sometimes it won't and I don't have much idea why.
posted by phoque at 4:51 PM on February 1, 2016

Y'know, I'm a little mystified by their decision to take a situation that was already a mess, and continue doubling down on it. I don't get the logic.

"Okay, the Feds are involved, guys are arrested and shot, and there's only four guys left on the refuge, who are surrounded... let's call for arrests and claim it's still our land now!"

What do they think this can possibly get them? What good could it conceivably do, even in their moon-law worldview?
posted by Archelaus at 4:58 PM on February 1, 2016

They can keep the refuge ever functioning as a refuge again, because they are essentially declaring open season on any employee or visitor who 'trespasses'. Which means that the government will probably not send people back to work there.
posted by tavella at 5:04 PM on February 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

They've made it clear from the beginning (in various ways, in various writings and tweets and interviews) that they intended this to be the beginning of A Movement. If they allow this supposedly minor setback to stop them, then it isn't A Movement.

I'm not surprised that they are doubling down. Although it seems to be a bit of a second-tier plan, since the original plan seemed to involve masses of people joining them at Malheur, and that one didn't actually happen.
posted by hippybear at 5:05 PM on February 1, 2016

David Fry is talking to a web streamer right now. Says - they are going to stay out there - "till the American people, wake up and raise an army". Thinks the American people are going to start a revolution because of their stand on the refuge.
posted by yertledaturtle at 5:08 PM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

That was more my point, hippybear. It's been manifestly obvious by this point that the masses of armed support they were expecting are certainly not coming, and definitely not coming through the FBI blockade that's now in place. Doubling down now just adds to the crazy for no likely result.
posted by Archelaus at 5:10 PM on February 1, 2016

And they want Franklin Graham to negotiate with the FBI for them. What?
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:11 PM on February 1, 2016

They're pursuing supposedly legal means (LOL at the CC: The White House on the registered letter claiming the refuge posted earlier)... so they don't intend this to be over.
posted by hippybear at 5:12 PM on February 1, 2016

Thinks the American people are going to start a revolution because of their stand of the refuge.

They had a short interview earlier today with another dude who played audio from today's rally in Burns. The four apparently believed the rally was in support of them, so they seemed a bit renewed and invigorated by that.
posted by mochapickle at 5:12 PM on February 1, 2016

The four apparently believed the rally was in support of them, so they seemed a bit renewed and invigorated by that.


This has evolved into an accidental social psychology experiment, hasn't it?
posted by MysticMCJ at 5:15 PM on February 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yeah, it's going to be a fantastic dissertation for someone. It's fascinating.
posted by mochapickle at 5:17 PM on February 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

On the live feed, David is demanding for hundreds of people to walk through the blockade.
posted by mochapickle at 5:19 PM on February 1, 2016

> David Fry is talking to a web streamer right now

Do they have their phone service back?
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:20 PM on February 1, 2016

One phone is working and can take incoming calls.
posted by mochapickle at 5:21 PM on February 1, 2016

David Fry made a call into the live streamer he is talking to now. He seems to have a phone that calls out.
posted by yertledaturtle at 5:26 PM on February 1, 2016

On the live feed

WHAT LIVE FEED?!?!11
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:34 PM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Presumably the live feed of the aforementioned streamer to whom he is talking. I dunno any more details, though.
posted by Archelaus at 5:36 PM on February 1, 2016

Current interview link (not FryCam, unfortunately)
posted by mochapickle at 5:36 PM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

^ Wingnut Revolution Radio
posted by mochapickle at 5:37 PM on February 1, 2016

European-style agricultural protectionism enforced by a strong, market-interfering government that subsidizes inefficient heritage-style farming operations to protect an outdated way of life

At a glance, that turns out to be a bit of an understatement:

The .01 percenters. They are the nation’s biggest welfare ranchers, according to numerous environmental and policy groups; and it’s time they brought some attention to themselves, and the federal grazing program they’re exploiting to waste as much as $1 billion a year of taxpayer money while causing long-term damage to one of the public’s most treasured assets.

posted by sneebler at 5:38 PM on February 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Fry is yelling at the interviewer who herself is a Patriot-person (??) I believe. Fry really sounds really deranged - more so than usual. Shouting slogans. The conservative interviewer seems really taken aback. Fry hangs up on her/ cuts her off.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 5:39 PM on February 1, 2016

My bad David did not hang up - still on line
posted by AGameOfMoans at 5:41 PM on February 1, 2016

He just said goodbye to the lady that disagrees with his tactics and said "have fun funding abortion", because they had a disagreement over the meaning of the Constitution.
posted by yertledaturtle at 5:44 PM on February 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Oh gods, they are taking callers, and people seem to be trolling them.

"DIG UP LAVOY. DIG UP LAVOY AND SHOOT HIM AGAIN".
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:45 PM on February 1, 2016

You'd think if their entire plan revolved around inspiring "hundreds of thousands" of people to turn out in support, they would've choose someplace a little more accessible and hospitable. I'm still shocked they got 30-50 people out to rural Oregon in the middle of January. There's a finite number of people both willing and capable of driving hundreds or thousands of miles to the middle of nowhere and planning to stay weathering the elements indefinitely, even among your hardest right supporters.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:45 PM on February 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

"How come good people can't rise up and riot? Riot up for a good guy? Not like that gangster Trayvon." - Fry

Is it too late to get him in the Iowa caucus?
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:47 PM on February 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

Ooh. Managed to get myself silenced by the owner of the youtube channel. Didn't know they could do that.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:48 PM on February 1, 2016

Wait, did you call in?
posted by mochapickle at 5:49 PM on February 1, 2016

We must know how you got yourself muted - The community demands answers!
posted by MysticMCJ at 5:50 PM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

No, comment stream. I congratulated David for keeping people in jail.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:50 PM on February 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

A caller just called them the "Four Horsemen of the Revolution" and I can't stop laughing.
posted by mochapickle at 5:50 PM on February 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Ah, looks like it's a temporary ban. Two minutes to go...
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:50 PM on February 1, 2016

Yeah, it is really easy to get banned from their chats. As soon as you say one or two reasonable things they ban you. Total echo chamber.

The channel I am watching it on is more reasonable.
posted by yertledaturtle at 5:51 PM on February 1, 2016

A crying woman calls in, tells them there is a light around them, and assures them her cat is upset.

This is so weeeeeird.
posted by mochapickle at 5:52 PM on February 1, 2016

Woman on the line is weepily proclaiming that she's ashamed of her state [for doing this to Fry], so ashamed that even her cat is wailing.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:52 PM on February 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

I think the cat's in heat.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:53 PM on February 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

Fry NEEDS to be Trump's running mate
posted by AGameOfMoans at 5:59 PM on February 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

"This is probably the last time you will hear our voice" - Fry is still riding the suicide train, it seems.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:00 PM on February 1, 2016

Woman on the line is weepily proclaiming that she's ashamed of her state [for doing this to Fry]...

A constant theme with these people and their supporters seems to be a complete lack of any sense of responsibility. That and a deep, abiding belief in their own victimhood.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:00 PM on February 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

I have a deep and abiding belief in their victimhood, too. It's just that I feel they've been victimized by unscrupulous people who instilled this nonsense in them.

That doesn't make me sorry for them or anything, mind.
posted by Archelaus at 6:07 PM on February 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

I was warned "tarp stuff gets you kicked" Apparently it's automated.

CLICK THE TARP TO WIN A FREE POCKET CONSTITUTION [Click ◼]

Earns a 220 second ban.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:09 PM on February 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

They also ban the word dildo
posted by yertledaturtle at 6:11 PM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fry: "My clear objective is to show Americans that they don't have to sit around and wait for something to happen"... "Americans can have a revolution if they want".
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:14 PM on February 1, 2016

Well, other Americans don't have to sit around and wait for something to happen, I guess he means.
posted by indubitable at 6:15 PM on February 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

He's complaining he can not make outbound calls and they cut off his internet. Sounds more like a kid who got grounded than a neo-revolutionary to me.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:17 PM on February 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Woman on the line is weepily proclaiming that she's ashamed of her state [for doing this to Fry], so ashamed that even her cat is wailing.

"My cat was right about you."
--Gayle from Bob's Burgers
posted by bluecore at 6:17 PM on February 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

That's cute - Fry thinks that the FBI doesn't know about this feed.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:17 PM on February 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

"My clear objective is to show Americans that they don't have to sit around and wait for something to happen"... "Americans can have a revolution if they want".

I'm more interested in Sanders' stump speech than Fry's.
posted by hippybear at 6:17 PM on February 1, 2016

Caller: "Dave, man! Love your live stream! You guys rule...do you remember that time you guys were poopin'?"

Not even joking. Direct quote.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:18 PM on February 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

"Hey Dave... Do you remember the time when you guys were poopin' ??"
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:18 PM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Haha, everyone always forgets Jeff.
posted by mochapickle at 6:19 PM on February 1, 2016

Fry: "We'll be here as long as we can...I recommend people come up here to find out what happened to us".

He still thinks that he's going to die. But he's been consistent (today, at least) in saying that people don't need guns to support them, they just need to 'rise up'.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:22 PM on February 1, 2016

(My) Comments that have slipped by the ban hammers:

• How much lube is left?
• We need more militant birders out there. Just walk in from the far side.
• Yeah, the FBI have no legal authority in Oregon.
• MANY MAY DIE. IT IS INCUMBENT ON ALL GOOD AMERICANS TO BE AMONG THOSE SAINTS!
• I'm coming. I just need to get my MR2 unstuck from this snow. We got socked here back east.

Poe's Law works both ways...
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:23 PM on February 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

Lots of promises of support. That scares me.
posted by yertledaturtle at 6:23 PM on February 1, 2016

Fry is complaining about 'radical right wing media'. Oh, the irony.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:25 PM on February 1, 2016

people don't need guns to support them, they just need to 'rise up'.

Remember decades ago when they tried to levitate the Pentagon?
posted by hippybear at 6:30 PM on February 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

Whoa Davids parent's call in and both say that they are very proud of him.. Fruit..tree .. falling
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:41 PM on February 1, 2016

Was it a "keep up the great work revolutionizing, we're proud of you!", or more of a "you're not a completely worthless human being, David, please come home so we can try to get you some help"? From the little I've read about his dad, I'd be surprised by the former, but at this point who the fuck knows.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 6:49 PM on February 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

This wingnut revolution radio call is an echo chamber that is reinforcing their commitment to remain on the refuge.
posted by yertledaturtle at 6:50 PM on February 1, 2016

ChurchHatesTucker, can you request the four of them do a performance of When The Revolution Comes?
posted by ctmf at 6:51 PM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

I was surprised to hear it as well A Box... considering the earlier interviews. It did seem to me much more of a "keep up the good work" . Weird considering Fry's father interviews where he was quoted while crying as wanting his son to come back. So it makes no sense to me really.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:53 PM on February 1, 2016

The Revolution Will Not Be Televised*

*unless your tv has a YouTube app built in
posted by hippybear at 6:54 PM on February 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

goddammit did David Fry wait until I was out seeing a movie to finally start livestreaming again
posted by cortex at 6:57 PM on February 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

No, he's on the phone talking on someone else's livestream.
posted by hippybear at 7:00 PM on February 1, 2016

If you want, I can start livestreaming a garbage fire and play the interview over it.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:03 PM on February 1, 2016 [15 favorites]

...you had to ask?
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:05 PM on February 1, 2016

David Fry is in your head now Cortex. Might as well cancel Netflix.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:05 PM on February 1, 2016

Remember decades ago when they tried to levitate the Pentagon?

Oh. I thought you were joking.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:07 PM on February 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Me: Do a version of When The Revolution Comes! It'll go viral!

Waiting...
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:10 PM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think the only thing that could pull me away from this trainwrecjk is a new X-Files episode.... oh, wait...
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:28 PM on February 1, 2016

Anyone up for a mass enspousening in Old Thread?
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 7:33 PM on February 1, 2016

Looks like we have another crier: "We're not going to let you go, I promise you [sob] ...no matter the outcome, you are [sob] an American hero".

I should have gone with robocop is bleeding's garbage fire livestream.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:41 PM on February 1, 2016

Well, never mind, I found a document from the Acting Oregon US Atty (pdf) that says that "The jury was neither asked if the Hammonds were terrorists, nor were defendants ever charged with or accused of terrorism. Suggesting otherwise is simply flat-out wrong."

The earlier courts probably should have not let drop the misdemeanor charges for the earlier death threats.

... Court files show the Hammonds faced felony charges that included intimidating and interfering with federal employees. The charges were reduced to misdemeanors and then dropped in 1997. -(orgeonlive)

...
Leading up to the 1994 incident were the death threats. Cameron says, “My wife would take these phone calls, it was terribly vulgar language. They said they were going to wrap my son in barbed wire and throw him down a well. They said they knew exactly which rooms my kids slept in, in Burns. There were death threats to my wife and two other staff members and their wives. My family went to Bend rather than be in the community because it was so volatile at the time. The families of my biologist and my deputy manager family had to relocate as well for a short time.”
-(rawstory)


> Cliven Bundy thinks the refuge is his now.

What? The lazy fuck didn't even show up.

Is it me or does this sound like "federal felony charges of conspiracy to impede federal officers from discharging their official duties through the use of force, intimidation or threats." for Cliven Bundy?
posted by sebastienbailard at 7:51 PM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

>>The government has a near monopoly on available grazing lands.

>Only in the west. The BLM is charging 7% of the market rates available by private landowners in other states. That's because grazing lands in the east are pressured by their viability as crop lands which, to be quite frank, make way more money as crop lands.

This is nonsensical -- only in the west do large expanses of federal lands exist, so of course this is only an issue in the west. Grazing land and crop land are not the same here and are not in competition in the way that they are in the east with its higher rainfall and more limited topography. Land in the east was largely privatized long ago, and if the Bundy's like private land so much they should move east. I'm sure I am not alone in being willing to help pay for their Uhaul.

Also, it takes some serious nerve to call environmentalists "divisive" when ranchers are the ones throwing a secessionist hissy fit over their god-given right to free reign to degrade public land.

I hear your frustration, but there are some issues here. For one, the "ranchers ... throwing a secessionist hissy fit" were mostly not ranchers and were almost entirely not from Oregon. For another, western land and water issues are by their nature divisive, and the strong environmental position (as seen in some comments here) represent one side in those debates, and in no way reflect a consensus view or necessarily have any strong local base of support. The consensus approaches (including, with great irony, the recent agreements in Harney County) incorporate environmentalist perspectives along with other land use histories and perspectives, and are much stronger because of that.

My sense, as someone who works in a very small way on these issues this region, is that the future of western land use is going to be modeled on these kinds of agreements that will continue to place more and more environmental constraints on extractive industries as a way of preserving traditional land uses, and simultaneously environmental science will continue to better understand those traditional land uses in the landscape, including tribal.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:53 PM on February 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

can i send a letter to someone claiming the wildlife refuge? if cliven bundy can do it, why can't i?

Counter-letter
posted by zakur at 8:07 PM on February 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

only in the west do large expanses of federal lands exist

Something like a quarter of West Virginia is the Allegheny National Forest. I guess stuff like that doesn't count since it isn't BLM land, but it is managed and timber contracts are sold so I'm thinking it's federal land in some context. It certainly isn't state-run.
posted by irisclara at 8:25 PM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Something like a quarter of West Virginia is the Allegheny National Forest.

National Forests are federal land, but that scale doesn't meet the criteria for "large expanse" as used in the West.
posted by Miko at 8:33 PM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Just looked - Allegheny is 802 square miles. Malheur alone is 293 and it's a postage stamp surrounded by much larger tracts of federal land.
posted by Miko at 8:35 PM on February 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Actually, Allegheny is interesting. Mainly because it's in Pennsylvania. But also, because, the government does not actually own the subsurface and drilling rights, by quirk of history at the time it was purchased.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:36 PM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

I was under the impression that that's true for a lot of federal land.
posted by Miko at 8:37 PM on February 1, 2016

Not much cattle grazing on National Forest land.

National Wilderness Areas do have cattle grazing.
posted by hippybear at 8:51 PM on February 1, 2016

There is cattle grazing on National Forest land.
posted by Miko at 8:54 PM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Huh, I had grown up being taught there was a difference while I trekked for many hundreds of miles across the Gila area on the NM/AZ border.
posted by hippybear at 8:56 PM on February 1, 2016

If what I'm reading is correct, the only grazing in National Wilderness Areas is by grandfather clause in recognition f historical/traditional access. Maybe you swapped the two.
posted by Miko at 8:58 PM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Something like a quarter of West Virginia is the Allegheny National Forest.

WV is on the high side for the east at just over seven percent federal land. Oregon is over 50 percent in comparison. This map gives an indication of where the federal land is. According to the Congressional Research Service, the U.S. government owns nearly half the land in the 11 coterminous western states, as well as more than 60 percent of Alaska. But in the rest of the country, only 4 percent of the land is federally held. (Atlantic)

And within those states, federal land ownership is concentrated in counties with very small populations, so these are issues that personally and directly impact few people, who tend to have very limited say and control in the policies and actions of those federal agencies.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:58 PM on February 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

The same western states are also the only part of the country with large land areas under tribal control (which overlaps in complicated ways with federal control, of course). That is a good thing, but increasingly assertive tribal governments are a new part of the political landscape and are very much part of the debates over land use in ways that do not reduce to simplistic dualisms.
posted by Dip Flash at 9:09 PM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Metafilter: I can't quit you Brokeback Marshland, stoner wingnut, armed insurrection of the car parts store, cowboys, and their fecund ways, FPP.
posted by Oyéah at 9:17 PM on February 1, 2016

Not much cattle grazing on National Forest land.

A lot of National Forest land is leased for grazing.

93 million acres of National Forest lands are leased for grazing, about 50% of its total area.
138 million acres of BLM lands are leased for grazing, about 80% of its total area.
posted by JackFlash at 9:28 PM on February 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

I should have said George Washington National Forest. I stand corrected on that. It is still a large portion of land in the state.
posted by irisclara at 10:48 PM on February 1, 2016

About a fifth of West Virginia’s 15.5 million acres is publicly owned, mostly by the state and national governments

I realize that's not as many acres as out west but it is a substantial portion of a state under government management. And while grazing isn't a big thing here, timbering is, and I understood that it is in Oregon as well.

I'm not trying to play down their issues of rubbing elbows with the government land managers, I'm just noting that it isn't exclusive to the west.
posted by irisclara at 11:00 PM on February 1, 2016

Cliven! Cliven! Get back in the house!
posted by Oyéah at 2:06 AM on February 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm not trying to play down their issues of rubbing elbows with the government land managers, I'm just noting that it isn't exclusive to the west.

Federal ownership is exclusively concentrated in 12 western states (including Alaska). State and other public ownership, as you correctly note, is a factor in many eastern states, though not on the percentage scale of the west nor are there almost any comparably large contiguous areas under public control. It really is something unique to a small number of states for historical reasons, and as noted above within those states the federal lands are concentrated in counties with very low populations.

This isn't any excuse for the poor behavior of the protesters, just a point of context for why these issues continue to resonate in this region. Dialethia's comments above on the ecological context are all completely correct as well, and are a key part of the interplay.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:10 AM on February 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

why these issues continue to resonate in this region

Resonate with whom? Is there some faction of reasonable ranchers who say "why yes, we're grateful the Bundys took up arms against the government. Because we're with them!"?

Maybe it's "we're sorry that one nut job from Arizona tried to run down some federal officers and got shot. But have you looked at what percent of Arizona is federal land? And you know, Cliven Bundy's threat to kill federal officers trying to enforce grazing law was really quite effective. I fully support him using public land without paying."
posted by Nelson at 6:33 AM on February 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

And the winner of uncharitable reading of the year goes to...envelope please...
posted by Bugbread at 7:17 AM on February 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

Y'know, I'm a little mystified by their decision to take a situation that was already a mess, and continue doubling down on it. I don't get the logic.

"Willard: They told me that you had gone totally insane and that your methods were unsound.
Kurtz: Are my methods unsound?
Willard: I don't see any method at all, sir."

I think it's worth keeping two things in mind here. 1) No one fails up like a sovcit. Every one of them can be counted on to start with a bad idea, turn that into a misdemeanor, then work their way up to felonies, and, with luck, life imprisonment or death. 2) Almost to a man, they are narcissistic religio-political zealots: the living, breathing, walking denizens of the non-reality-based community.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:25 AM on February 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

And the winner of uncharitable reading of the year goes to...envelope please...

aw come on don't keep me waiting!
posted by numaner at 7:28 AM on February 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Even though I haven't been able to swing much travel outside the US, I have spent a fair amount of time traversing its regions and have visited all but two of the lower 48 states; I also work with lots of people, mostly tribal members, who are involved in some way or another with policies and intragovernmental relations. These are the times I'm grateful that I've had those experiences. Meeting and speaking to people in places very different from mine about issues they care about has been an education. Usually, the spectrum of opinion is a lot more nuanced, and the issues more complex, than it seems from a distance.

I don't know, when I think about a reverse analogue I think about what the Bundy followers might say about Northeast fisheries and federal, agency, and state involvement in fisheries management. Everything you might predict there happens in that community here, too. There are people who spit after uttering the name NOAA, people who aren't that angry but who generally support unregulated fishing rights, based on historical arguments as well as superior-knowledge claims and general libertarianism; there are people who are concerned about the permanent environmental damage caused by this extractive industry, and people who are generally sympathetic to that but still want to eat bluefin tuna; people who don't really care about the politics one way or the other but recognize that fishing history is a big part of their community heritage and local character, to the point that tourism is partially based on it; people who are looking to cash in big by consolidating the industry and buying up licenses; and people who aggressively want to close fisheries and move on. Across this spectrum can be found a number of reasonable people, but they are all of course (including me) people who have certain affiliations, interests and biases driving their motivations. I am in the pro-regulatory camp but also an advocate for preserving small-scale, contained traditional fisheries as a heritage industry and I am a critic of the way federal policy has been implemented. That doesn't mean I agree with everything the most politicized fishermen want, but I can easily join them in saying "yes, this system is fucked up and has screwed you over," even if my own proposed solutions would be different.

tl;dr issues around limited natural resources are complex.
posted by Miko at 7:46 AM on February 2, 2016 [11 favorites]

A Google form, apparently created by Ammon Bundy's Valet Fleet Services business to solicit political support.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:58 AM on February 2, 2016

can i send a letter to someone claiming the wildlife refuge? if cliven bundy can do it, why can't i?
posted by pyramid termite

Naaah, that's already claimed. But if you really want to troll, determine the boundaries of the Federal land that Craven Bundy uses and write a similar letter to the Feds declaring that it is now held by the people in perpetuity and will henceforth be protected from any and all grazing. Send a registered CC to Craven. Watch heads asplode.
posted by Seamus at 8:00 AM on February 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

I so want to post that Google form in the Defend Your Base livestream comments, but I'm not going to give in to my baser desires.
posted by Miko at 8:07 AM on February 2, 2016

> Resonate with whom?

With ranchers and residents who think the Bundys et al. are assholes and who also have issues with the way the BLM et al. manage the land they lease. These people exist!
posted by rtha at 8:20 AM on February 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

1) No one fails up like a sovcit. Every one of them can be counted on to start with a bad idea, turn that into a misdemeanor, then work their way up to felonies, and, with luck, life imprisonment or death.

Which makes me seriously wonder if we aren't going to be treated to Refuge Occupation v.2 sooner than later? It certainly seems like they are moving in the direction of a round-2...The militia members arriving in Burns, Papa Bundy claiming ownership of the refuge now...
posted by Thorzdad at 8:23 AM on February 2, 2016

issues around limited natural resources are complex.

And this is what is so hard to just get most people to recognize. Crabbing and other industries in the Chesapeake Bay have been a controversial and politicized issue. I love eating blue crabs from the bay, but I don't mind paying a little extra (since it's a seasonal luxury for me anyway) if it means the local crabbers has a sustainable business model and the crab population can be maintained. At the same time the quality of aquatic organisms there are affected by agricultural runoffs into the bay from eastern Maryland farms, and that needs to be regulated without costing farmers so much. Most politicians here talk about cleaning up the bay as a "treating the symptom" issue, because they don't want to get into discussions about the agricultural and crabbing industries. When those issues come up, all I usually hear are yelling from extremes for either side. Of course this is all not even accounting for how climate change is affecting the bay, which is a whole other can of worms.
posted by numaner at 8:34 AM on February 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

Local man arrested in armed Oregon standoff

"Captain" O’Shaughnessy's local paper notes his arrest:

"O’Shaughnessy had been arrested in Arizona in January 2008, charged with possession of dangerous drugs for sale and possession of methamphetamine paraphernalia before being released on a $7,500 bond. In April 2008, he was charged with conspiracy, dangerous drug violation, drug paraphernalia, aggravated DUI and two counts of misconduct involving weapons."

posted by octobersurprise at 8:58 AM on February 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

A Google form, apparently created by Ammon Bundy's Valet Fleet Services business to solicit political support.

The use of free text fields, I suspect, means that many patriots from the state of Dildonia will be volunteering their service.
posted by running order squabble fest at 9:15 AM on February 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Ammo's lawyers have withdrawn the motion appealing his detention order, moments before the scheduled hearing before the Distinct Court. They want additional time to gather evidence of his "peaceful" statements. O'Shaughnessy and Santelli's appeal hearing is starting at 10:30pst.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:47 AM on February 2, 2016

Captain Joe is the one who spent donations on a boozecation at a local motel and is now using that in turn to argue that he wasn't living at the refuge. Very clever. My fear is that if released he'd ... TRY TO KILL ME WITH A FORKLIFT ...!!
posted by octobersurprise at 10:30 AM on February 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

(¡Olé!)
posted by nicepersonality at 10:52 AM on February 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

And within those states, federal land ownership is concentrated in counties with very small populations, so these are issues that personally and directly impact few people, who tend to have very limited say and control in the policies and actions of those federal agencies.

Another problem is that these regulatory agencies are staffed by imperfect people and some of them have behaved in ways that are frankly outrageous. As an example consider the systemic racism and sexism that has plagued the USDA loan programs.
posted by humanfont at 11:54 AM on February 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

(¡Olé!)

(Captain Joe action figure, cooking sherry, and Malibu Dream House sold separately.)
posted by octobersurprise at 12:16 PM on February 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Revolution Radio is live again.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:21 PM on February 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Uh, does that picture of LaVoy in the upper right have a caption reading "Master Foreskin"?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 12:23 PM on February 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Revolution Radio, broadcasting live from your local leather bar.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:27 PM on February 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Uh, does that picture of LaVoy in the upper right have a caption reading "Master Foreskin"?


As far as I can tell...
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:28 PM on February 2, 2016

Heh. They're as concerned for the horse, Hellboy, as we are.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 12:34 PM on February 2, 2016

Couple more pdf's;
O’Shaughnessy appeal for release. (10 page)
Santilli case for release. (51 page)

The Santilli one is funny because they included a page from the Oathkeepers website (to show they are a benign group) but they including about 20 pages of the attached comments for no reason.

The thing is that some of the witnesses may be incriminating themselves and providing addition confirmation of participation by vouching for the detained ... don't know if it will come to anything but it would be nice if there was another shoe to drop.

LA Times op-ed about this point sort of;
How the government is charging Ammon Bundy and his self-styled Oregon militia members

Just as the arrest was cautious, so is the charge. In the federal criminal complaint — which the FBI didn't obtain until after the arrests — the U.S. attorney for the District of Oregon charges the eight defendants with a single count of conspiracy to impede an officer of the United States. That federal criminal statute doesn't see much use, and it's not one of the Justice Department's big guns: Its maximum penalty is only six years. To prosecutors, the virtue of such conspiracy charges are their flexibility: The government need prove only that two or more of the defendants agreed to prevent some federal employee from discharging his or her duty by force, intimidation or threat. Prosecutors don't have to prove they were successful.

It used to be hard to prove what defendants agreed to do: You had to infer it from their actions, or find a snitch to repeat their conversations, or wiretap them. But this is 2016, and we arrange our affairs in the open. The government's 31-page affidavit in support of the complaint against the eight occupiers is chock-full of their own words: statements in press interviews, statements in videos posted to YouTube, statements in widely distributed emails. It's enough to make a defense attorney weep.
posted by phoque at 12:45 PM on February 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

According to Shawna Cox on Revolution Radio, they called 911 when Laverne took off after the initial stop. Who did she expect to help them? The sheriffs were being charged in their kangaroo courts for complicity with Feds. The grasp on reality is so tenuous.
posted by Seamus at 1:02 PM on February 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Apparently Shawna had a camera running? I'd be curious to see that footage.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:04 PM on February 2, 2016

Regarding O'Shaughnessy's appeal for release: is it standard operating procedure for lawyers to punctuate their talking points with "strike one/two/three/etc"? If I were a judge, I'd have a rough time treating this as a request from a serious/sane person.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 1:05 PM on February 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yeah. me too. If it showed the hundreds of shots, they would have released it later that day.
posted by Seamus at 1:05 PM on February 2, 2016

I'm still confused re: how Ryan Bundy was shot in the shoulder.
posted by mochapickle at 1:10 PM on February 2, 2016

Hit By Pitch
posted by Windopaene at 1:11 PM on February 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

From Santilli's case for release:

Santilli was not an occupier. To the contrary, Santilli disagreed with the takeover of
the buildings on the Refuge; he publicly expressed his opposition to it, and he talked others
out of joining in the occupation.

posted by readery at 1:14 PM on February 2, 2016

Shawna: God created the Constitution for us.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:15 PM on February 2, 2016

Regarding O'Shaughnessy's appeal for release: is it standard operating procedure for lawyers to punctuate their talking points with "strike one/two/three/etc"? If I were a judge, I'd have a rough time treating this as a request from a serious/sane person.

Is it standard? Yes. Is it good practice? No, not especially.

There are a LOT of bad lawyers out there in the world, you'd be amazed at the stuff that gets filed in federal court.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:16 PM on February 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Whomever that host is on that "radio" show, he just stated that we are in Nazi Germany and they had a run-in with the Gestapo.
Perpetual victims with no sense of actual history.
posted by Seamus at 1:16 PM on February 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

We need to make Bingo cards for these interviews. About five minutes before the interview ended, I was thinking, wow, they never mentioned the Nazis this time. This is absolute restraint.

And then, boom.
posted by mochapickle at 1:19 PM on February 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yeah, in the facebook post from that Nevada legislator, she says, "his God given second amendment right.."
posted by Trochanter at 1:19 PM on February 2, 2016

O’Shaughnessy released to home monitoring, Santelli continued again until Thursday. Judge Mossman: "Other than Mr. Santilli's own words this would be a classic case for release."

Santelli really is the gift that keeps giving, him running his mouth constantly provided a ton of the quotes in the indictment and now the judge(s) don't seem to be buying his first amendment argument, or at least are thinking long and hard about whether his "reporting" was actually incitement to violence.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:22 PM on February 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Transcript of Cox's lawyer and court discussion. (12 page pdf)

Freed Oregon occupier Shawna Cox heading home soon, husband says
Cox's husband said the family planned to hire "a big expensive legal team" to fight the charges against her.

Don Cox also said his wife isn't a terrorist or anti-government.

"But there's some things in the government that are not right," he said. "This has always been about putting God back in American and back in our schools."


Finicum Obituary
He loved working on his ranch and teaching his children how to ride horses, brand cows, and most of all, to follow Christ. LaVoy loved God, his family, and his country. He believed that the Constitution of the United States was inspired by God and he was willing to, and did, die while defending our freedoms stated within.
posted by phoque at 1:34 PM on February 2, 2016

"But there's some things in the government that are not right," he said. "This has always been about putting God back in American and back in our schools."

What happened to land rights? It's teabagger/wingnut Calvinball.
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:37 PM on February 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

Molly Young tweets,
A spokesperson confirmed evangelist Franklin Graham spoke to #Oregonstandoff occupiers and to FBI. Wouldn't say if they were still talking.
posted by phoque at 1:44 PM on February 2, 2016

Ryan Bundy wasn't shot in the shoulder. Ryan Payne was shot in the wrist at the first stop, when he stuck his hands out the window. He said something to the effect, "They mean business." He then exited Finicum's truck hands up. Shawna Cox has the Ryans mixed up. After that, Finicum sped away to his demise.

This is the problem with myth making, it is different than truth telling.
posted by Oyéah at 1:50 PM on February 2, 2016

This article by Les Zaitz says Ryan Bundy, shoulder

Shawna just said in the interview that they thought Payne's wrist had been shot, but apparently hit the metal place by the side mirror.
posted by mochapickle at 1:58 PM on February 2, 2016

Ryan Payne was shot in the wrist at the first stop, when he stuck his hands out the window.

And this is my whole thing where I got in trouble in the other thread. Procedures. Procedures to protect the officers, and to minimize lethality. They shot at the truck? At the first stop?
posted by Trochanter at 2:01 PM on February 2, 2016

Angela Bundy thinks it was her husband who was hit shielding Sharp in the truck after it had crashed.

Article with audio interview in a soundcloud file embedded at bottom. Reference to wounding at 2min 5sec.
posted by phoque at 2:05 PM on February 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

When religion and politics travel in the same cart, the riders believe nothing can stand in their way. Their movement becomes headlong – faster and faster and faster. They put aside all thought of obstacles and forget that a precipice does not show itself to the man in a blind rush until it’s too late.

- Bene Gesserit Proverb
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:07 PM on February 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

Oyéah: Ryan Payne was shot in the wrist at the first stop, when he stuck his hands out the window.

Has this been confirmed by law enforcement? I don't remember anything in the press conference about shots being fired at the first traffic stop. I always assumed his superficial injury was from the glass getting blown out from the sponge rounds, but that was a guess and I was waiting for the official shooting report by OSP. A wrist out the window isn't usually a lethal force kind of thing as far as I know, plus a hard shot to make.
posted by bluecore at 2:12 PM on February 2, 2016

Whomever that host is on that "radio" show, he just stated that we are in Nazi Germany and they had a run-in with the Gestapo.

"Ve hav vays of making you lube."

Do they actually teach history in America any more? Because if they did, these idiots would have known how the Nazis actually dealt with this sort of anti-government stuff. And it wasn't by mailing in dildos.
posted by marienbad at 2:13 PM on February 2, 2016

Do they actually teach history in America any more?

I've been reflecting on that as I listen to their rhetoric and hear about how fundmentally they misunderstand law and the Constitution. Even their American history education has been terrible, for them to come to such views.
posted by Miko at 2:18 PM on February 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Ryan Payne was shot in the wrist at the first stop, when he stuck his hands out the window. [...] This is the problem with myth making, it is different than truth telling.
posted by Oyéah at 1:50 PM on February 2 [+] [!]
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 2:20 PM on February 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

We do teach history in this country.
But there is something seductive about a reading of history that pushes all of the right buttons and confirms things we already feel.
I have a friend who revealed to me that he is an Oathkeeper.
He is a smart man. He is a conservationist, a science-educator, sort of hippie-dippy, and a former Liberal. He is also a soldier who never served in a war.
How do you go from that to being an Oathkeeper? You do it by accumulating grievances and by hanging out with people who hold that mindset. The echo chamber is powerful.
posted by Seamus at 2:28 PM on February 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

After Lavoy was shot they used flash bangs and fired non-lethal pepper spray rounds into the truck. These probably causes the wounds on Ryan Bundy. The pepper spray rounds are non-lethal, but still pretty painful if you are hit by one.
posted by humanfont at 2:31 PM on February 2, 2016

We do teach history in this country.

Poorly. Incredibly poorly. (In Canada we have our own blind spot in history classes vis a vis First Nations people, and that's changing. Slowly.)

But there is something seductive about a reading of history that pushes all of the right buttons and confirms things we already feel.

That's not history, then. That's just a story.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 2:32 PM on February 2, 2016

The guy who interviewed Cox is Dave Hodges of The Common Sense Show. FREEING AMERICA One Enslaved Mind At a Time™.

And his latest headline is;
Nazi Occupation Storm Troopers Have Taken Over Eastern Oregon
posted by phoque at 2:36 PM on February 2, 2016

Do they actually teach history in America any more?

How delightful! that we can judge the quality of the education system by the actions of a small group of radicals. It’s like how I look at the actions of Wahhabists and assume that no muslims ever read the Qu'ran.

But there is something seductive about a reading of history that pushes all of the right buttons and confirms things we already feel.

That's not history, then. That's just a story.

All history is stories, because all history is interpretations of facts. For every history wonk who gets turned on by confirming everyone’s biases, there’s another who gets turned on by sticking their thumb in the eye of the status quo.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:43 PM on February 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

That's not history, then. That's just a story.

It their world, though, it's not a story. It's the real American history that has been subverted and suppressed by the oppressors.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:43 PM on February 2, 2016

s/history/minimally creative non-fiction/
posted by Going To Maine at 2:45 PM on February 2, 2016

Trochanter:
"Ryan Payne was shot in the wrist at the first stop, when he stuck his hands out the window."

And this is my whole thing where I got in trouble in the other thread. Procedures. Procedures to protect the officers, and to minimize lethality. They shot at the truck? At the first stop?

What might have gotten you in trouble was the fact that the simplest comparison of the footage of the traffic stop and the various Bundyite accounts makes it extremely clear that they are in no way trustworthy witnesses. When someone leaps to criticize the government before confirming the facts, after repeated lies from the same people, motives start to be suspected.
posted by tavella at 2:46 PM on February 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

If anyone has any actual statement from the FBI about how and when whichever Ryan it was got wounded, I would love to see it posted here. Anything else said about it is conjecture or heresay.
posted by hippybear at 2:48 PM on February 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

The Portland FBI press release there is no mention. But the statement that Payne exited through the rear door may be an error.
posted by phoque at 2:51 PM on February 2, 2016

Oregonian/OregonLive article;
Ryan Bundy, 43, of Bunkerville, Nev., suffered a minor gunshot wound in the confrontation about 4:30 p.m. along U.S. 395. He was treated and released from a local hospital and was in FBI custody, authorities said.
posted by phoque at 3:11 PM on February 2, 2016

We do teach history in this country.

As a public historian, I would say that for the vast majority of students, we really don't. This issue has been in hot discussion over the last few years, as the criticism of history textbooks and curricula has flared up dramatically here and there. The state of history education in the U.S. is, and has been for some debatable amount of time that might go back to the theoretical revolutions of the 1960s/70s but probably the majority of its existence, extremely poor. There is an enormous gap between the actual practice of the discipline of history and the processed narrative and rote memorization most of us imbibe in primary and secondary education. However, even if these folks had had a reasonable accounting of US History of only a mediocre sort, they would be ahead of where they are now. Their understanding is egregiously bad - convoluted, vague, confused, tilted, uninformed.

All history is stories, because all history is interpretations of facts

We could talk all day about the construction of historical narrative, and I don't say this to disagree with you, but much of what I've heard and read directly from the mouths of these folks is not interpretation of fact, but made-up fact, entire architectures of made-up fact, and abstract ideas with no rooting in fact, other than the fact of American anti-federal rhetoric over the past century. A responsible history education would have dealt with the basic tension between collectivism/individualism (without demonizing either of them in and for themselves), which is a theme in American history that precedes the founding of the nation and has carried straight through. That did not happen for them; they see themselves as wresting back something that was never in place, so they don't have the benefit of historical perspective on this issue and are at a loss to understand why support for their points of view is not more widespread. They simply have not been well educated, or it would be impossible to assert the things they do about the Constitution, the American War for Independence, or anything else they've been referencing.
posted by Miko at 3:25 PM on February 2, 2016 [12 favorites]

Do these guys go to real schools? I would expect weird culty charter and home schools in a lot of cases.
posted by Artw at 3:30 PM on February 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Sure, we tend to teach more History as Content than History as Process>
And yes, you would hope that a responsible history education would have taught them how this "interpretation" is egregiously wrong, but I think you are underestimating the human ability to revise reality inside the skull. One can be exceedingly well educated and then decades later decide that a different narrative explains the world better than the one you were fed in high school. (And home-schooled kids, it's right out the window. John Birch approved text books . . . sigh. But I wouldn't bet that most of these people were home-schooled)
posted by Seamus at 3:34 PM on February 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

There are some discrepancies in accounts regarding Payne and Bundy. In a CNN interview Sharp says that she was in the back seat between Bundy and Cox. Ryan Payne was in the front passenger seat. She says that before the chase, Payne exited the front door and surrendered.

However, the official FBI statement says that Payne exited through a back door. It so happens that the video does not show the exit of Payne because at that time it was focused on the Jeep a few hundred yards back up the road. You only see Payne after he has already left the truck and is being taken into custody.

I think the FBI statement is in error because the video does not actually show Payne getting out of the truck. If you look at the full video, after Finicum is shot, the remaining passengers exit the truck from the left rear door. The right hand doors are blocked by the snow bank. First out is Bundy, then Sharp and finally Cox. Hard to identify each person for sure, but that is how it looks. They all exited from the left rear door, which suggests that Sharp's account is correct, that Payne had been in the front passenger seat. Bundy, Sharp and Cox were in the rear seat.

This means that Bundy, seated at the left window, would have had the only clear view of the shooting, Sharp and Cox much less so. In fact, Sharp and Cox most likely could not see the actual shooting at all since it occurred slightly behind the truck. Only Bundy had a window seat. A crew-cab pickup doesn't have a very good view for rear seat passengers on the opposite side. Sharp and Cox probably could only see the first couple of seconds when Finicum jumped out with his hands up, before he moved to the rear of the truck.
posted by JackFlash at 3:49 PM on February 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Do these guys go to real schools?

Fair question. Though homeschooling took off mostly after their day. And of course, it's also possible they were just not great students.

the human ability to revise reality inside the skull

Sure, maybe; it doesn't sound like revision as in the rewriting of a narrative they now question, so much as made-up-ness, but it's possible that revision post education is what happened for some of these folks.
posted by Miko at 3:51 PM on February 2, 2016

THIS IS AMMON’S STATEMENT FOR TODAY – FEBRUARY 2ND:
Because of the restrictions of solitary confinement for 23 hours per day, I have not been able to speak to my father. I am requesting that the four remaining protesters go home now so their lives are not taken. This will allow the FBI and OSP to also go home and end their armed occupation of Burns and Harney County. Then, the Harney County Sheriff should cordon off the refuge as the citizens work on returning these lands back to the people of Harney County and the State of Oregon as prescribed in the constitution. It is simple: The land belongs to the people.

From the front page of Ammon's lawyers website.
posted by phoque at 4:03 PM on February 2, 2016

...and end their armed occupation of Burns and Harney County. Then, the Harney County Sheriff should cordon off the refuge as the citizens work on returning these lands back to the people of Harney County and the State of Oregon as prescribed in the constitution. It is simple: The land belongs to the people.

Even in defeat and under arrest, the asshole wants his demands met. Ammo needs a severe reality check.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:09 PM on February 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

Then, the Harney County Sheriff should cordon off the refuge as the citizens work on returning these lands back to the people of Harney County and the State of Oregon as prescribed in the constitution. It is simple: The land belongs to the people.

Can someone, anyone, take the shovel out of his hands? This is just utterly depressing. Throwing your life away for what? It's a wildlife refuge. The land belongs to the people. The land was being used by thousands of bird watchers every year. It was being used by anglers and hunters! The people have full recreational use of this land already and people use it!
posted by Talez at 4:10 PM on February 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

I think in the Bundy world "the people" are ranchers. Period.
Well, maybe loggers.
And miners.
And Kochs.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:14 PM on February 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

Even in defeat and under arrest, the asshole wants his demands met. Ammo needs a severe reality check.

Sounds like evidence of intent to continue the conspiracy if he's released right? And evidence of non-remorse at sentencing.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:17 PM on February 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

He has been read his Miranada rights, correct? They've told him "all this shit you're espousing we're going to nail you to the wall for it", right?
posted by Talez at 4:19 PM on February 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Harney County's response to the PPN's "Letter of Intent".

They got far more than I would have given. Which would have been a photocopy of my hand flipping them the bird.
posted by Talez at 4:22 PM on February 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

"All four individuals decline this request." is pretty awesome, though.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 4:31 PM on February 2, 2016 [9 favorites]

Harney County's response to the PPN's "Letter of Intent".

They got far more than I would have given. Which would have been a photocopy of my hand flipping them the bird.

PPN’s third grievance is “Immediate resignation of Judge Steve Grasty, Sheriff David Ward, County commissioner Pete Runnels, and County commissioner Dan Nichols.”

All four individuals decline this request.

I don't know. As birds go, it's not bad.

(jinx)
posted by Trochanter at 4:33 PM on February 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yeah, that final line is a pretty good roll of the eyes.

edit: removed quote for third time
posted by phoque at 4:34 PM on February 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Master Foreskin was one of the lesser henchmen of the Lord Humongous
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:11 PM on February 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

OK sorry about misinformation. I also have high regard for how this situation has been handled by local, state and federal people. Burns doesn't deserve a war.
posted by Oyéah at 5:28 PM on February 2, 2016

Fake "common law superior court judge" Bruce Doucette recorded his "oath of office" in Arapahoe County, Colorado. It is amazeballs, as the kids say.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:54 PM on February 2, 2016

oh snap i started to hear the batman the animated series music playing while reading that
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:58 PM on February 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

The common law stuff makes me shake my head. I read about it and its hallmarks in the OPCA document, half amused and half concerned. It is like nothing so much as the chaotic writings/utterances of people suffering from psychosis. It would take so much to believe that there is an alternate law system you can invoke by the use of magical phrasings and signs. It would take too much.
posted by Miko at 6:04 PM on February 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

More concerning is the 23 hours a day of solitary confinement.
posted by humanfont at 6:06 PM on February 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

The common law stuff makes me shake my head. I read about it and its hallmarks in the OPCA document, half amused and half concerned. It is like nothing so much as the chaotic writings/utterances of people suffering from psychosis. It would take so much to believe that there is an alternate law system you can invoke by the use of magical phrasings and signs. It would take too much.

The thing is, 'common law' is an actual thing. That is, common law is the body of law built up by judicial decision, as distinct to law set by statute.

Given how much these idiots seems to idolise Black's Law Dictionary, you'd think they would know that.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:11 PM on February 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

More concerning is the 23 hours a day of solitary confinement.

What do you have against the run of the mill accused criminals in gen pop that you feel they should be exposed to Ammon Bundy?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:13 PM on February 2, 2016 [11 favorites]

humanfont, you realize that none of these jerks have turned out to be capable of anything most folks would recognize as honesty, right? I'm not really all that worried about Ammo's "solitary confinement".
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 6:15 PM on February 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yeah, I'd be mighty curious how and why Ammon ended up in solitary, if he actually was in solitary, but I'll be less than surprised if "solitary confinement" in this case means "there's nobody else in the run-of-the-mill jail cell I'm in" or something along those lines.

I am a little fascinated by the communications disconnect between Ammon's "go home!" tack and Cliven's "stay the course" message to David Fry et al, and the eventual conversation that father and son will have about that.
posted by cortex at 6:20 PM on February 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Woman says she was feet away when shots killed Oregon occupier Finicum
CNN article and short video of interview with Sharp. They actually show her the FBI video and push back slightly against her claims.

Court documents filed stemming from Oregon refuge occupation
This is where all released court documents are being posted and should get updated.

Federal judge affirms release of Joseph O'Shaughnessy; delays decision on Pete Santilli
Article covers the arguments in more detail and shows the Judge had problems with many of Santilli's statement being portrayed as benign.

Ritzheimer had his second hearing today but it appears more time is needed. His posturing and harassing a woman in a BLM shirt make his case look especially bad because he didn't just conspire to intimidate. He managed to get his intimidation tactics officially documented.

Not many details but the scene outside is noted;
Judge weighs options for AZ man in Oregon standoff
A small group of protesters lined the streets surrounding the Sandra Day O'Connor U.S. Courthouse in downtown Phoenix Tuesday afternoon holding signs saying "Go back to Oregon" and carrying Ritz Crackers to mock the outspoken conservative who was responsible for numerous armed, anti-Islam protests last summer.
posted by phoque at 6:29 PM on February 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

No no you misunderstand. My concern is he isn't getting the full Chelsea Manning treatment. Only 23 hours of solitary and he gets to wear clothes.
posted by humanfont at 6:33 PM on February 2, 2016

Yeah, I'd be mighty curious how and why Ammon ended up in solitary, if he actually was in solitary, but I'll be less than surprised if "solitary confinement" in this case means "there's nobody else in the run-of-the-mill jail cell I'm in" or something along those lines.

Or it might be a total fantasy, like his fervid account of the Finicum shooting which he didn't witness.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:37 PM on February 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

but I'll be less than surprised if "solitary confinement" in this case means "there's nobody else in the run-of-the-mill jail cell I'm in" or something along those lines.

It's all self-involved histrionics. It's like Gloria Swanson.
posted by Trochanter at 6:49 PM on February 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think in Federal supermax prisons inmates are housed like that-- 23 hours in their cell and 1 hour of exercise. They're not in a supermax, obviously, but maybe it's standard protocol to house Federal prisoners like that until they're convicted/sentenced since the people going through there could vary in their level of dangerousness (or could be in danger from other prisoners)? In any case I don't think that's considered solitary confinement" just "segregated housing" or "administrative detention status." What we commonly refer to as solitary confinement would be "disciplinary segregation status," and could include punitive things like no reading material, no mattress, no blanket, and "prison loaf" for food. I'm not certain if disciplinary status removes your one hour of exercise, but it wouldn't surprise me if it did. If they actually land in a Federal prison, most likely they would be in pods with other prisoners during the day. I guess it explains why Ammon is so quick to urge the four remaining to leave the refuge.
posted by bluecore at 7:10 PM on February 2, 2016

The thing is, 'common law' is an actual thing.

Oh yeah, I know that (historian) but the mishmosh of jargon and ritual they are calling "common law" has nothing to do with Anglo-American common law traditions or present-day case law. In fact it really has no case law tradition at all, since the cases it's appeared in seem to all be phenomenally unsuccessful.
posted by Miko at 8:09 PM on February 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Good NYT op-ed from 1/9: The Ideological Roots of the Oregon Standoff. Goes into how the greenwashed "wise use" movement laid the groundwork for anti-federal sentiment in the West going back decades.
posted by Miko at 8:22 PM on February 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

In any case I don't think that's considered solitary confinement" just "segregated housing" or "administrative detention status."

It's a single room. He's complaining because it's not a suite and there's no mini-bar, wifi, or room service...
posted by mikelieman at 8:22 PM on February 2, 2016

Do we have any actual information about the conditions that Ammon Bundy is being held in, outside of his own mention through his lawyer of being in solitary confinement? I would love to read them if they are available.
posted by hippybear at 8:26 PM on February 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yea, pretrial detainees are not usually held in actual federal prisons, but by the US Marshals in various local or state facilities. The Bundys are being held at the Multnomah County jail. I guess he could be in solitary confinement, but I wouldn't take his word for it at this point.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:30 PM on February 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's a single room. He's complaining because it's not a suite and there's no mini-bar, wifi, or room service...

Yes, and all the guards walk by whistling Don't Fence Me In.
posted by mochapickle at 8:56 PM on February 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Joaquin DeMoreta playing common law (judge / lawyer / legal consultant (vimeo 49min)) in front of a real judge. It is pretty incomprehensible, but it gets comical when the judge asks him about his qualifications to practice and informs him that it is an offense to basically impersonate a lawyer. Then Joaquin protests he received a 'do not reply' e-mail from the court which is ... treason. He starts calm, but after 20 minutes of being shot down by the judge, gets wound up. Judge sets him straight a couple more times. He raves about how god chose him to be a grand jury administrator and how Ferguson protesters are shooting police in the head (no relevance he just threw it out there to get the judge on his side I think). Finally, at the 36min30sec mark the judge starts explaining the law and shooting down everything. Joaquin argues a bit more, the judge dismisses everything, Joaquin asks if the dismissed 'without prejudice' means he can file again, the judge tell him it isn't his job to give him legal advice.
posted by phoque at 9:09 PM on February 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

Portland is a port town and has a rough side. Ammon is lucky to be alone in a cell. Lucky. What surprises me is he does not get his status. He is not a hero, not a savior, not revered.
posted by Oyéah at 9:35 PM on February 2, 2016

The Bundys are being held at the Multnomah County jail. I guess he could be in solitary confinement, but I wouldn't take his word for it at this point.

Good find! Although it seems to be the Multnomah County Detention Centre specifically:

The Multnomah County Detention Center in Portland, Multnomah County, Oregon, like all jails is a maximum security facility. Because the inmates in this jail range from low level offenders to those being held for violent crimes like robbery, rape and murder, the security level is as high as is it is in any maximum security state prison.
...
Inmates in the Multnomah County Detention Center are fed three meals a day totaling 2,500 calories, are allowed access to phones to contact friends and family members, are allowed at least one hour a day for exercise, have access to books, bathroom and shower facilities. The inmates are allowed mail to be delivered to them as well as newspapers and magazine from trusted outside publishers.

posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:57 PM on February 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

The Bundys are being held at the Multnomah County jail.

I'm guessing the brave constitutionalists of the PPN, and their rag-tag group of militia supporters, aren't armed and marching in front of that particular facility?
posted by Thorzdad at 7:34 AM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Storm Over Rangelands: Boise Land Seizure Conference and the Spectacle of Lawlessness at Malheur. Counterpunch has a first hand account of the "rancher" movement's conference in Boise.

Time after time the audience was told the land is not public land. Public land went away the first time someone turned out a cow, cut down a tree, or put in any kind of development.

...

The Bundy barbarians were not only conducting a very public display of scorn for public lands environmental protection laws, the Refuge land itself, and Native American beliefs. They were also taking possession, perfecting “rights”.

They put on a media show of Finicum and gloveless Ammon Bundy removing a barbed wire fence so cows could graze in the Refuge – creating a “right” through work (a la John Locke). Grazing was to follow in the spring) on Refuge lands. They bulldozed roads, and a road “right” right-of-way was created.

So this is why Cliven thinks he owns the Refuge now. His son Ammo has the "rights", which means the whole thing is Bundy clan land now. This isn't over, they're out there openly preaching insurrection as we speak.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:59 AM on February 3, 2016 [9 favorites]

Owyhee Wilderness Proposal In Spotlight After Refuge Occupation
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:02 AM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Cliven's second act entrance was high drama.

" Tattaglia is a pimp. He never could have outfought Santino. But I didn't know until this day that it was Barzini all along. "
posted by Trochanter at 9:29 AM on February 3, 2016

I found this article on Indian Country Today to be rather interesting: The Oregon ShootOut and the Cowboy Lawyers

The U.S. Constitution waved in the air by the Oregon militiamen fixed all relations with Indian nations as a federal responsibility, to the exclusion of the states. Cowboy legal scholars following U.S. land titles need to follow this: only the U.S. can acquire the lands and only the federal government can act for the U.S.

The exclusive federal right to acquire Indian lands was tested in the second of the three opinions in the Marshall Trilogy. Those opinions are to this day the foundation of federal Indian law.

The case was Johnson v. M’Intosh, and the issue was which land titles were superior as between titles derived from private parties who purchased from the Indians or titles derived from a federal government purchase from the Indians.

Some of the oldest and scariest to colonists land claims involve the same issue except that the competing sale was to state or territorial government rather than the federal government.

Who “bought” the land from the Indians does not matter and how much they paid or to whom does not matter. If it was anybody but the federal government, U.S. law is not going to recognize the transfer.

Don’t these principles apply only to former Indian land in Nevada (Cliven Bundy’s grazing fees) or Oregon (Malheur Wildlife Refuge)? That would be correct, but it’s all former Indian land.

The states cannot appear in the chain of land title unless they appear somewhere in the chain below the federal government. Therefore, if the cowboy legal scholars were to defeat the federal land titles that constitute so many burrs under their saddles, the result would not be state land. The result would be tribal land.

posted by hippybear at 9:39 AM on February 3, 2016 [16 favorites]

Does this make David Fry, or Sean Anderson the 21st Century Billy The Kid?

Either way, sad. Not that Billy wasn't sad.

Just waiting for one of these groups to pop up with the name "Regulators."
posted by valkane at 9:46 AM on February 3, 2016

Actually, the more I think about it, I guess Ammon fancies himself Billy. David is more like Alias (Bob Dylan). But who's Pat Garrett? The FBI?
posted by valkane at 9:49 AM on February 3, 2016

Well, they did have a committee of [public] safety
posted by Death and Gravity at 9:58 AM on February 3, 2016

The Victoria Sharp interview perhaps sheds some light on what was going on at the first Finicum vehicle stop. Finicum was arguing with the state police and FBI that they had no legal authority to arrest him. Ryan Payne wisely decided to surrender and got out of the truck.

She said that his plan was to outrun the police and get to more sovereign friendly Sheriff Palmer in John Day for protection. It was a Dukes of Hazzard fantasy that he just needed to get across the county line and the cops would have to back off. What he didn't know is that there were actually two roadblocks ahead. The first a mile up the road where he met his death, but the second, ironically, about 20 miles ahead at Seneca which included Sheriff Palmer and was intended to keep innocent civilians off the road and away from the first roadblock.

According to Sharp, Finicum's last words were "Hey, guys, I'm going to drive."

I wonder what his passengers thought when they suddenly found themselves in a real live high-speed police chase right out of reality TV.
posted by JackFlash at 10:08 AM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

I don't understand why Cliven Bundy hasnt been arrested as well. His actions last year would seem to also fit the definition of conspiracy to impede a federal officer.
posted by humanfont at 10:13 AM on February 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

That's interesting, hippybear. It's amazing how these folk manage to be wrong in so many different ways. I guess that's why they need guns, and I guess they know it.
posted by benito.strauss at 10:15 AM on February 3, 2016

NPR's Around the Nation: "To Protesters Flocking To Oregon Town, Locals Say 'Go Home'.

It says a lot about the militants' conspiratorial mindset that they think the counterprotesters are hired actors.
posted by happyroach at 10:37 AM on February 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

happyroach: It says a lot about the militants' conspiratorial mindset that they think the counterprotesters are hired actors.

Not only do they think the counter-protestors are hired actors, but some of them online think that the four left at the refuge are "crisis actors" because of that one documentary filmmaker asking them to sign talent releases. Also, I've heard some of them claim the LaVoy video is all staged since the timestamp on the video was off by a day (I'm assuming because the FBI released a redacted video to hide the drone telemetry data and the timestamp is when it was redacted.) As if the government could secretly stage an entire shooting event on a stretch of public highway with all the details and vehicles perfectly replicated, but somehow the one detail they overlook is the timestamp on the video that they voluntarily release.
posted by bluecore at 11:12 AM on February 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

And if not hired actors, they are federal "bootlickers".
Their inability to understand that people may honestly disagree with them is telling.
posted by Seamus at 11:17 AM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think the video was "off by a day" because the FBI uses GMT or Zulu-time on all recordings to avoid problems that would arise from using times stamps from a variety of time zones.
If the LEOs and veterans in this movement can't understand and control that bit of misinfo, then they were probably pretty shit at their jobs to begin with.
posted by Seamus at 11:21 AM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Why would they want to "understand and control" the misinformation? It serves their movement's purposes.
posted by OmieWise at 11:36 AM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

> Their inability to understand that people may honestly disagree with them is telling.

I think it's the very heart of their dysfunction. There's a description of the governmental system put in place by the American founders that I really like, that instead of looking for a single right answer they put in place mechanisms to minimize the harm caused by disagreement, as disagreement is inevitable. These folk want to root that out. I'm never sure if they're just a historical blip or if enough people hunger for the days when you killed people for being the wrong sort of Christian that headed back to that world.
posted by benito.strauss at 11:44 AM on February 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

Just waiting for one of these groups to pop up with the name "Regulators."

Warren G might've made it too ethnic for their tastes
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 12:16 PM on February 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

Frank Sinatra might've made it too ethnic for their tastes.
posted by msalt at 2:20 PM on February 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

Now I'm just imagining Frank Sinatra crooning "Regulators... Mount Up!" and that's all I can think about.
posted by MysticMCJ at 2:24 PM on February 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

Prosecutors Bring Sealed Indictment In Bundy Case
posted by T.D. Strange at 2:27 PM on February 3, 2016

The militants' common law jury has issued a walrused indictment in response. Observers question the porpoise of this move.
posted by humanfont at 2:36 PM on February 3, 2016 [18 favorites]

Humanfront: That's going to be a whale of a question . One cod only hope that the common law jury will flounder like the ones before - that is unless something really fishy is going on.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 3:01 PM on February 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

The common law jury's "indictments" go over like a damp squid.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 3:02 PM on February 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

What's the story on sealed indictments in general? What is the usual rationale for sealing one, and what are the rules on how long or under what circumstances they may remain sealed?
posted by Juffo-Wup at 3:03 PM on February 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

What's the story on sealed indictments in general? What is the usual rationale for sealing one, and what are the rules on how long or under what circumstances they may remain sealed?

Usually while there's an ongoing investigation the indictment is under seal. Once the indictment is returned it will be unsealed and then Bundy charged. Since he's already in federal custody the creation of the arrest warrant is obviously skipped.
posted by Talez at 3:13 PM on February 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

So, regarding the four toolbags still occupying the refuge - they're cut off from communications, and they won't leave so they can't do food runs. I imagine they are not receiving mail any more. From a practical standpoint, how are they eating? Will they be starved out any time soon?

And do they have power? I presume the FBI cut the power too, but the refuge has petrol generators, right? How long will that last?

Just wondering how long this idiocy will continue.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:22 PM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

They eventually laid in food supplies to last 30 people more than a week, I think.
posted by sebastienbailard at 3:27 PM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

There was a ton of food there at one point. They should be set for weeks.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:28 PM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well, that's annoying.

Seemingly no fresh vegetables, though. Maybe the constipation will motivate them to give up in exchange for laxatives.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:31 PM on February 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm listening to this nutbar radio show (20 mins).

David reports that the FBI has informed them that they will be completely cutting off their personal cell phones shortly. He says the FBI has provided another phone and a charger for their use (by putting it in a car?). Some farmers/ranchers need to get in to do irrigation work and the FBI will be accompanying them as bodyguards. (Sean regards this as suspicious since everything's frozen, but there are other reports that muskrats have destroyed that irrigation system and they need to start repairing.)

There's then news from Deb Jordan (Santilli's partner) that the hospitals are gearing up again like they did on the 26th.

And then the interviewer lady does a very dramatic prayer.
posted by mochapickle at 3:33 PM on February 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

There are ranchers that live and sleep less than 1000 yards from these guys.

You might expect the Feds to come in through the back road with their armored vehicles and re-occupy the buildings, cutting them off from their water and food supplies and leaving them freezing outside in their little tarp camp and battle trench.
posted by JackFlash at 3:47 PM on February 3, 2016

And who even knows if they are still camping out. It's been super cold and they haven't made a big deal about the camping part for days now.
posted by mochapickle at 3:50 PM on February 3, 2016

Huh, maybe they weren't in the buildings... OPB's John Sepulvado mentions that he's been in contact with them every few hours for the past 36 hours, brief conversations. The four had been sleeping in their cars. Promises a full story of those conversations tomorrow; confirms the incoming number no longer works.
posted by mochapickle at 3:55 PM on February 3, 2016

And who even knows if they are still camping out.

Why were they camping out in the first place? They still have access to the building.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:56 PM on February 3, 2016

Enh, who knows. They just made a big deal the first few days that they were peaceful and simply "camping."
posted by mochapickle at 3:58 PM on February 3, 2016

They have to stay outside because they need to guard the road entrance. It's the only way they know what's going on outside or whether the Feds are sneaking up on them.
posted by JackFlash at 4:01 PM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

mochapickle: "I'm listening to this nutbar radio show (20 mins)."

It's not often that you hope something one of these guys says is right, but I'm hoping Sean was right when he said, "This is where it has to start or it'll never happen ever again"
posted by Bugbread at 4:04 PM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yeah, I know what you mean, Bugbread. I am hoping this fizzles and soon.
posted by mochapickle at 4:15 PM on February 3, 2016

"the interviewer lady does a very dramatic prayer"

Oh Lord, won't yah buy me, a Mercedes Benz?
posted by Oyéah at 4:56 PM on February 3, 2016

Oh Lord, won't yah buy me, a Mercedes Benz?

Oh Lord, won't yah give me, a wildlife refuge?
My friends all have ranches, you cannot refuuuuse
Don't wanna pay for grazing, the Gov'ment's a ruse
Oh Lord, won't yah give me, a wildlife refuge?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:08 PM on February 3, 2016 [14 favorites]

Oh Lord, won't yah buy me, a Mercedes Benz?

Well if you file form DE623-34-# and then write a Treasury Check using your social security number as the account number you can afford it!
posted by Talez at 5:10 PM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

At best they're glamping.
posted by maxsparber at 5:12 PM on February 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

They have to stay outside because they need to guard the road entrance.

Don't they also have some convoluted strategy here, like they think if they are not in the building they can't be charged with preventing a federal employee from working? I seem to recall that's why they moved outdoors in the first place, so they can preserve the fiction of "just camping" and obstructing nothing. Certainly if it were just watching the road they could take turns on post as guard (though even that very simple measure not to all fall asleep at once seems to have been beyond their grasp all along).
posted by Miko at 5:19 PM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Sure, they might be keeping a few Fish and Wildlife employees from working, but think of all the FBI agents they're keeping on the clock. If anything, they've increased the federal government footprint in Harney county.
posted by ryanrs at 5:55 PM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

From that Twitter feed by the OPB reporter: "the FBI was concerned about the militants poisoning themselves because they were sleeping in their cars with their engines on 3/5"

*facepalm*

The OPB organization's reporters have been really impressive through all this.
posted by Miko at 6:39 PM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Am I missing something? Aren't their cars parked outside?
posted by Bugbread at 6:55 PM on February 3, 2016

Yes, but many exhaust systems leak. That can lead to CO filling up the sealed-against-the-cold passenger compartment.
posted by Windopaene at 7:00 PM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Also, if snow blocks the tail pipe.
posted by bluecore at 7:02 PM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sleeping with the engine running is something I've seen as a definite no in survival info. You can run the engine enough to heat the compartment, but then you're supposed to shut it off, and not fall asleep with it running.
posted by Miko at 7:20 PM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

And a single candle can keep you alive.
posted by valkane at 7:23 PM on February 3, 2016

Huh. Well, I guess you can add me to your facepalm list, because I only knew not to run vehicles in enclosed spaces.
posted by Bugbread at 7:26 PM on February 3, 2016

Can you imagine the conspiracy theories if these four idiots managed to accidentally kill themselves?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:34 PM on February 3, 2016 [12 favorites]

I guess you can add me to your facepalm list

I wouldn't be so flabbergasted at this stuff but the whole aesthetic these folks cultivate is one of independent capability. I don't fashion myself a survivalist, just an outdoorsy person, and yet I have been exposed to this information; it amazes me that in all their commitment to the cause of individualism, they have not sought out that knowledge. Though they are good at wearing camo and brandishing weapons, turns out none of that means they are actually good at taking care of themselves in the absence of the support of a constraining, moderating civilization.
posted by Miko at 7:48 PM on February 3, 2016 [17 favorites]

I ran across this pdf of a paper from the Reagan era with detailed background on the so-called Sagebrush Rebellion. Still in the middle of reading it myself, but I thought I'd share it now before this thread gets too big.
posted by ambulocetus at 8:02 PM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm suprised these idiots havn't gotten food poisoning yet given the state of their camp.
posted by humanfont at 8:13 PM on February 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Miko: "I wouldn't be so flabbergasted at this stuff but the whole aesthetic these folks cultivate is one of independent capability."

Good point.
posted by Bugbread at 8:19 PM on February 3, 2016

Honestly that may be the best bet to end it. They don't appear to have any practical skills or interest in maintaining a functioning camp. None of these 4 idiots left were Eagle Scouts, that's pretty clear. I highly doubt they were the ones to bring any of the supplies or gear, they probably just showed up with some camo jumpsuits and ammo and expected to be good to go. If they insist on staying outdoors to preserve some sort of insane deniability argument, they're either going to get hypothermia, burn down their camp, or make themselves sick from terrible hygiene, although the cold is at least helping them keep bacteria at bay for now. What do they do if one of them comes down with dysentery and the only way to help is to ask the FBI?
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:21 PM on February 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

the oregon trail memes would not stop if one of them died with dysentery
posted by MysticMCJ at 8:23 PM on February 3, 2016 [19 favorites]

When I feel impatient and frustrated about how long this has gone on, I remind myself that they don't have deet and with spring the mosquitos and ticks will return.
posted by humanfont at 8:39 PM on February 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

Oregon standoff, you have replaced Netflix in my life.

Just popping in to say thanks to all for keeping me up on developments. Real life has been intruding -- grrrr, pesky real life -- and I appreciate being able to catch up at night. mochapickle, that radio clip is too much.
posted by madamjujujive at 8:48 PM on February 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

I remind myself that they don't have deet and with spring the mosquitos and ticks will return.

Been there in the summer. The mosquitos are overwhelming.
posted by hippybear at 8:53 PM on February 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

> None of these 4 idiots left were Eagle Scouts, that's pretty clear.

I would be surprised if they lasted even two days at Burning Man, for godsake. I mean, they had to have snacks mailed to them because they did not think to bring their own.
posted by rtha at 9:22 PM on February 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

Oh Lord, won't yah give me, a wildlife refuge?
My friends all have ranches, you cannot refuuuuse...

In retrospect, that should have been, "My friends all have rifles, you cannot refuse"...

Perhaps I can make it up in the rest of the verses.

Oh Lord, won't yah give me, this Fed'ral building?
I'm a sovereign cit'zen, yes I'm the real thing
Your courts can't convict me, 'cos this fringed flag I bring
Oh Lord, won't yah give me, this Fed'ral building?

Oh Lord, won't yah send me, a couple of snacks?
My lunches and dinners, I neglected to pack
Don't wantcha damnned dildos, I just feel so attacked
Oh Lord, won't yah send me, a couple of snacks?

Oh Lord, won't yah give me, a pardon or two?
Our leader's in jail, oh what shall we do?
We'll camp in the snow and we'll film all our poo
Oh Lord, won't yah give me, a pardon or two?

posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:28 PM on February 3, 2016 [10 favorites]

Castle Stalker.
posted by valkane at 9:43 PM on February 3, 2016

Oh, this is weird: The #oregonstandoff live twitter feed that I've been checking in on for weeks now shows no results. Possible user error?
posted by mochapickle at 12:57 AM on February 4, 2016

You might be snackless if
posted by phoque at 4:58 AM on February 4, 2016 [7 favorites]

It looks like the militia jerks in town are planning some kind of event on Saturday morning. They've also been posting biblical quotes regarding blowing down the walls of Jericho, so some think it will be a protest at the refuge or even an attempt to break the blockade.
posted by bluecore at 6:21 AM on February 4, 2016

I hate littering. It's antisocial and a pox on the landscape. The way they have treated this event that they created is likely an excellent indicator of how they treat their own land, the federal land they use, their animals, etc. Jeez, the wingnut right are supposed to be good at prepping, and they couldn't even figure that out. Eagle Scouts? If they'd thought to recruit some Girl Scouts, they'd at least have cookies. I hadn't realized they could actually be lowered in my estimation.
posted by theora55 at 6:26 AM on February 4, 2016 [9 favorites]

What's the story on sealed indictments in general? What is the usual rationale for sealing one, and what are the rules on how long or under what circumstances they may remain sealed?

Usually while there's an ongoing investigation the indictment is under seal. Once the indictment is returned it will be unsealed and then Bundy charged. Since he's already in federal custody the creation of the arrest warrant is obviously skipped.

Some articles I have read stated that there are 16 individuals named in the sealed indictments. Since only 11 have been arrested so far, perhaps they're waiting on the arrests/arrest warrants of the other five? And if that's the case are the final four holdouts included? /speculation
posted by zakur at 6:35 AM on February 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

It looks like the militia jerks in town are planning some kind of event on Saturday morning. They've also been posting biblical quotes regarding blowing down the walls of Jericho, so some think it will be a protest at the refuge or even an attempt to break the blockade.

And they (Oathkeepers) have their own wish list of supplies needed. Snacks not mentioned.
posted by zakur at 6:47 AM on February 4, 2016

The snacks are what the gift cards are for. They learned their lesson, I suppose; ask for money, keep your purchasing private.
posted by Miko at 7:53 AM on February 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Walmart checking their lube inventory.
posted by Artw at 8:00 AM on February 4, 2016

They might need the national guard up in Multnomah County, then. Of course the guards on the road in and out of the refuge are the low hanging fruit, but the jail where the spawn of Clivin are livin', is more likely the site of the Jericho maneuver. However, sympathetic souls are probably sick of listenin' to those babies cry on the Mahleur. Again, it is weekend warrior talk. They know the press is backing off, since boredom has set in.
posted by Oyéah at 8:36 AM on February 4, 2016

16 named in indictment, including the final four holdouts. Defendants will be arraigned on the indictments Feb. 24

Ammon Bundy, 40, of Emmett, Idaho, faces one count of the conspiracy charge; Jon Ritzheimer ,32, of Peoria, Arizona, faces two counts; Joseph O'Shaughnessy, 43, of Cottonwood, Arizona, three counts, Ryan Payne, 32, of Anaconda, Montana, four counts, Ryan Bundy, of Bunkerville, Nevada, Brian Cavalier,44, of Bunkerville, Nevada, six counts, Shawna Cox, 59, of Kanab, Utah, seven counts, Peter Santilli 50, of Cincinnati, eight counts, Jason Patrick, 43, of Bonaire, Georgia, nine counts, Duane Leo Ehmer, 45, of Irrigon, ten counts, Dylan Anderson , 11 counts, Sean Anderson , 12 counts, David Lee Fry, 13 counts, Jeff Wayne Banta, 14 counts, Sandra Lynn Pfeifer Anderson, 15, and Kenneth Medenbach 16 counts.

posted by zakur at 8:41 AM on February 4, 2016 [9 favorites]

How is it that Ammon gets ONE count and Fry gets TWELVE???? What am I missing here??
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:52 AM on February 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

Actually Fry got 13. How did Sandra end up with more counts than Sean? Damn I wish the livestream was still going.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:54 AM on February 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

How is it that Ammon gets ONE count and Fry gets TWELVE???? What am I missing here??

Ammon has a lawyer.
posted by dirigibleman at 8:54 AM on February 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

It suggests it might be fine by YouTube mouth-offs.
posted by Artw at 8:55 AM on February 4, 2016

Defendants will be arraigned on the indictments Feb. 24

Interesting. So what if the folks on the refuge haven't left yet? Can you be arraigned in absentia?

ArtW's theory sounds likely in light of this from the article: ""It appears that those who remain on the refuge property face more conspiracy counts, than those who were arrested last week."
posted by Miko at 8:57 AM on February 4, 2016

Something seems off about that: note that the counts rise numerically from the first name to the 16th.
posted by Archelaus at 8:58 AM on February 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

That story doesn't look accurate from the actual document. Everybody named under the same count, there's only one charge against all of them.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:58 AM on February 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

the actual document.

I would assume there's a separate document for each count, and that's just the all-encompassing one, but you're right, something does seem off or at the least, something is missing.
posted by Miko at 9:01 AM on February 4, 2016

And if this is it, there's nobody else named or apparently going to be arrested, and the FBI isn't going after people like Blaine Cooper, who bailed off the refuge at the time of the Bundy arrests, these 4 hold outs just went from a free pass to a felony charge facing 6 years. They could've went home with the others.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:02 AM on February 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Something seems off about that: note that the counts rise numerically from the first name to the 16th.


Yeah, like they were just numbered and someone confused that with the counts.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:03 AM on February 4, 2016 [6 favorites]

Just emailed the reporter hoping for clarification.
posted by Miko at 9:06 AM on February 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

There was all that stuff with the loader after the first arrests. Ramped up the destruction.
posted by Trochanter at 9:13 AM on February 4, 2016

As of now none of that is charged, and no more arrests. There's a ton of other stuff that should thrown in here, but they seem to be settling for the conspiracy alone. And given how everyone from Bundyboogaloo 2014 walked away scott free, my bet would be this is the extent of it absent new developments. They're not going to track down anyone else who was there, and it doesn't seem like any more charges will be added.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:18 AM on February 4, 2016

Here's the indictment.
posted by Floydd at 9:19 AM on February 4, 2016

The reporter says she's just fixed it, said that initially the docket looked like it was listing the number of counts next to each defendant but once unsealed it was clear it was one count.
posted by Miko at 9:20 AM on February 4, 2016 [8 favorites]

If I were Fry or Banda, I would be kicking myself for waiting it out with Sean "Come Get Some" Anderson right about now.

They only have the FBI phone at this point. I wonder if they've heard this news.
posted by mochapickle at 9:20 AM on February 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Federal Grand Jury indictment. So, isn't it still possible for state and local authorities to indict on other statute violations, as well? Still, this is a heavy charge.
posted by Miko at 9:21 AM on February 4, 2016

Bundy indictment Bingo
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:30 AM on February 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

It seems like as soon as this news reaches the four at Malheur, there might be a big risk of self-harm.
posted by blueberry at 9:32 AM on February 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

It explains the timing of the communications shutoff, too. They lost cell contact yesterday early/mid afternoon, so it's possible they wouldn't be told until they are in custody.
posted by mochapickle at 9:36 AM on February 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Possibly concussions from the force of the face-palms.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:36 AM on February 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

On top of the drama inside the Multnomah County Jail, is the undercurrent of charges against that county's sherriff for bad social behavior. What will he do if in the middle of this, he perceives himself to be victim of libberul feminists? Will he suddenly join forces with the real men of the wild west, and blaze out, as he sees his career heading for the tank?
posted by Oyéah at 10:05 AM on February 4, 2016

I don't think David was ever walking away without charges, despite what they assumed by the "free to leave unharmed" message from the FBI. It appears that David gave them access to the refuge computers with his linux boot disk and computer knowledge, which, if true, put refuge employees directly in danger by exposing their addresses and financial data. As much as I have a soft spot for his apparent mental illness and how the system is going to chew him up, he needs to pay for that crime. If they're able to prove and convict on the hacking charges, I'm guessing he could end up spending more time behind bars than many of the others.
posted by bluecore at 10:24 AM on February 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well you'd think, but last time they pointed machine guns at federal agents and nothing happened. Burden is very much on the authorities here, right now it looks like the kid gloves treatment is ongoing yet again, and Fry and the others missed their chance to walk away completely without consequences.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:52 AM on February 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

While using a boot disk to access info already on those computers is possible, I don't have much confidence in David (or anyone else there) being able to figure it out.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 10:53 AM on February 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

For those of you still on Team No Charges [boo!], remember that these 16 charges are 16 individuals with 16 lawyers, all independent of each other because of the conspiracy charge. If you don't think folks are going to start rolling left and right, you've got another thing coming. I'm 100% sure that testimony from the initial 16 is going to fuel a second round of indictments soon enough.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 11:01 AM on February 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

right now it looks like the kid gloves treatment is ongoing yet again, and Fry and the others missed their chance to walk away completely without consequences.

While I am not very fond of the kid-gloves treatment this lot has been repeatedly given, I can think of one pretty good reason why they might not want to track down and charge the various hangers-on that took the "walk away if you don't have any warrants" offer. I would guess that one or more of the people there was an informant, so if they charged everyone with trespassing/interfering with federal officials/etc., they'd either have to charge their own or have it be obvious who the informants are and reduce their usefulness.
posted by tavella at 11:24 AM on February 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

the undercurrent of charges against that county's sherriff for bad social behavior.

What on earth are you on about? Which county? What sheriff? Charged with what?
posted by soundguy99 at 11:25 AM on February 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

And there's still no charges for Blaine "Tyrannasaurus" Cooper.
posted by mochapickle at 11:26 AM on February 4, 2016

soundguy99, Oyeah's talking about this. It's not a situation that going to effect the bundy thing at all, except in the fever dreams of our more expressionistic posters.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 11:32 AM on February 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

isn't it still possible for state and local authorities to indict on other statute violations, as well?

It's possible, even likely, that additional local, state, or federal charges will be added. Even the more conservative law-talkin' types seem to think that's likely. Keep in mind, also, that the crime scene hasn't been examined yet.

Of (more or less) interest:

Pete Santilli's Release Delayed In Oregon - Efforts Supporting Kent Hovind A Factor

Judge weighs whether Oregon-standoff suspect Jon Ritzheimer is eligible for release

Maureen Peltier begs "patriots" to protect Ritzheimer's wife; commenter asks for "liberals" who are "much better at reading and searching this legal system gobbledygook."

"FBI agents are commercial mercenaries employed by a French banking cartel known as the International Monetary Fund which is an agency of the UN."
posted by octobersurprise at 11:43 AM on February 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

T.D. Strange: right now it looks like the kid gloves treatment is ongoing yet again, and Fry and the others missed their chance to walk away completely without consequences.

I don't think they were ever going to walk away without consequences. The FBI wants the final four off the refuge and said they were free to leave unharmed, except for Sean who has outstanding warrants in another state. I think the final four assumed this meant only Sean would be charged, but the FBI made it clear in the press conference that free to leave isn't the same as free from consequences down the road. The conspiracy charge is just to get people off the street, but I suspect we'll eventually see hacking, theft of utilities, and violations regarding the desecration of antiquities, at the very least.
posted by bluecore at 12:02 PM on February 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

"FBI agents are commercial mercenaries employed by a French banking cartel known as the International Monetary Fund which is an agency of the UN."

They got it notarized.
posted by contraption at 12:22 PM on February 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

The sheerriff wher3 the conspirators are cooling their heels, is facing some complaints. No fever dreams, just worried about the broader, armed movement, all mixed up with politics.
posted by Oyéah at 12:26 PM on February 4, 2016

They got it notarized.

I can't tell if it's a raised seal, tho. It isn't a powerful paper unless it has a raised seal.
posted by octobersurprise at 12:29 PM on February 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yes, and don't they have to staple gold fringe to it?
posted by mochapickle at 12:30 PM on February 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

While using a boot disk to access info already on those computers is possible, I don't have much confidence in David (or anyone else there) being able to figure it out.

It's trivial depending on what the distro is - Some of them will auto-mount NTFS partitions in a read-only mode. If you can open a file browser in one of these, you can view data. It's generally harder to get these things actually on the network due to drivers and the like than it is to do something like this.
posted by MysticMCJ at 12:36 PM on February 4, 2016

Yeah, like I said: not much confidence in anyone there being able to figure it out, regardless of it being trivially easy.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 12:43 PM on February 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Most federal systems are encrypted to various degrees, with two factor authentication the standard. There was discussion in the last thread above whether they could access data, because it looked like some of the employees had left their PIV Smart cards there. A Linux boot drive wouldn't be enough, it's not trivial. Although, if you had the Smart card, and someone wrote their password down at their desk...
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:51 PM on February 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Although, if you had the Smart card, and someone wrote their password down at their desk...

I've been working with these cards since before they put chips in them, and I can guarandamntee you that someone wrote their password down at their desk.
posted by Etrigan at 12:54 PM on February 4, 2016 [6 favorites]

WHat TD strange said - I currently work (yay!) for a large corp handling sensitive data. Drive encryption along with two factor auth is the standard. I currently have to put in three passwords and have my cellphone handy just to boot my laptop :(
posted by AGameOfMoans at 12:55 PM on February 4, 2016

What bearing will the authorities' allowing the occupation to go on for so long have on defense strategy? I mean, they could make an argument that, if the occupation was such a big crime, why didn't the authorities come in and stop it right away?
posted by Thorzdad at 1:17 PM on February 4, 2016

Most federal systems are encrypted to various degrees

They should be, but they aren't always. I'll bet the security culture at a bird sanctuary is fairly lax.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 1:19 PM on February 4, 2016 [9 favorites]

Only as more evidence against them. The FBI was unable to end the occupation earlier because Bundy and his co-conspirators setup and armed encampment and threatened to kill anyone who tried to evict them.
posted by humanfont at 1:22 PM on February 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

tavella: "I would guess that one or more of the people there was an informant, so if they charged everyone with trespassing/interfering with federal officials/etc., they'd either have to charge their own or have it be obvious who the informants are and reduce their usefulness."

If I was the prosecutor I'd lay down a big spread of charges but leave out one middle level conspirator on purpose just to ramp up the paranoia and mess with them.

I probably shouldn't ever have this sort of power.
posted by Mitheral at 1:51 PM on February 4, 2016 [14 favorites]

What bearing will the authorities' allowing the occupation to go on for so long have on defense strategy? I mean, they could make an argument that, if the occupation was such a big crime, why didn't the authorities come in and stop it right away?

They could make that argument but, with respect, in the legal context it's very stupid. The actions of the authorities are not really relevant to whether you committed a crime or not. If you steal a car, and the cops don't chase you (because high speed chases are more dangerous than a car thief driving at a reasonable speed), you still stole a car.

1., they were told to leave on day one.

2., they were armed and aggressive, so the authorities would have had to conduct an armed raid to evict them. "If it was so illegal why didn't the FBI just kill us all?" is just not very convincing against the FBI's "well, we were trying to avoid unnecessary loss of life".
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 2:09 PM on February 4, 2016 [9 favorites]

The FBI informants were named YouTube, Facebook and Twitter. Sure its possible the FBI had someone on the inside, but it seems pretty unnecessary. The alleged conspirators recorded their crimes and helpfully uploaded all the evidence to YouTube. Then just in case we missed it they confessed again and again on social media and told everyone to watch their videos.
posted by humanfont at 2:36 PM on February 4, 2016 [5 favorites]

Bundy Statement.

Spoiler Alert: Nobody has taken away his shovel yet.
posted by Talez at 2:39 PM on February 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

Fry's livestreams were so perplexing to me. It seemed like, yeah, we have this thing we are doing, and we have plans we are making and movements we are doing, and does it make sense to broadcast them live and archive them for later watching on the internet? YES OF COURSE IT DOES.

Is this what it means when I read all those articles about how olders don't understand millennials? Because that seemed like the actions of someone who has lived their entire life online and doesn't truly understand what it implies when some things might need to be kept private.
posted by hippybear at 2:43 PM on February 4, 2016 [7 favorites]

Bundy Statement .

"Go home, Oregeon State Police..."

Jeez, I knew he was delusional, but coming from out of state and telling the Oregon police officers to go home? That's some serious cognitive dissonance.
posted by bluecore at 2:49 PM on February 4, 2016 [9 favorites]

Is this what it means when I read all those articles about how olders don't understand millennials?

No, Fry is just a delusional self-aggrandising idiot. He thought his videos would kickstart the revolution.

Young people understand privacy and confidentiality just fine. They just make different decisions about what they want to keep private than older demographics.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 2:51 PM on February 4, 2016 [5 favorites]

Yeah, think of all the bad decisions you made when you were younger that you wouldn't make now (or, if you weren't much of a bad decision-maker, think of the bad decisions made by people you know, which those same people wouldn't make now). When you see a millennial making a dumb privacy decision, just file it next to "young person decides to take up smoking," "young person decides seatbelts are too restrictive, decides not to wear one," "young person puts head inside speakers at concert." The only reason young people didn't make bad YouTube or Facebook decisions back when you were young is because those things didn't exist, not because of some alien mindset.

And, yeah, "broadcasting conspiracy plans" is a few levels up from that, but "armed standoff with FBI" means you're already dealing with someone who is a cut above your average dumb-decision-making-youth.
posted by Bugbread at 3:03 PM on February 4, 2016 [9 favorites]

Another interview with Shawna Cox (youtube 45min). Pretty much the same story except it is video of her, so you get facial expression and hand gesture. She has amplified the heroics of Finicum drawing fire away from them and gets emotional thinking about the made up motive (while we can not know his exact thoughts ... I'm comfortable thinking he was acting in his own interest to the potential detriment of those in his care and custody) and has convinced herself it is part of the story.

One funny thing was her recounting Sharp screaming she was an EMT and wanting to help Finicum (as previously) but now it has expanded to when Ryan declared he had been hit, apparently Sharp (no longer being shielded or huddled praying in fear) turned her EMT skills toward others and looked at his shoulder and agreed he had been hit. Nothing important just a weird mashing or inflating of story.

She talks about her detention a bit. All she does is complain about having her stuff taken and not being allowed to do what she wants. She just doesn't get it. I found all the whining fairly irritating. She is being needlessly hassled and unfairly treated. The entire legal process and the fact she was charged and the severity ... it all seems to be beyond her grasp.

A second person in the room tried to ask about Finicum's hand movements and begins spinning a theory about him being shot and reaching for his side and how it was impossible he had a gun because of the type of jacket he was wearing (claimed jacket doesn't have inside pockets and the video show the FBI planting a gun). Cox absorbs the information and goes on to say she got information that Finicum had been shot 3 times and all bullet holes were in his back. (There have been a number of musings claiming knowledge of number of shots and location, none seem credible). She was planning on attending the funeral until the judge said no, so it is possible she communicated with his family (and I thought she mentioned she had) but it still isn't confirmation of anything.
posted by phoque at 3:13 PM on February 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

I actually buy the three shots in the back; my impression is that he was shot by one of the cops near the cars, because he was trying to draw a weapon while positioned to shoot the guy in the treeline (who I still thinks looks like he is holding a taser rather than a gun). Strangely, when one tries to commit murder (or at least make a convincing feint at it), cops are not required to allow you to shoot your victim due to you facing away.
posted by tavella at 3:18 PM on February 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'll bet the security culture at a bird sanctuary is fairly lax.

That's kind of what I'm thinking.

I've been involved with many, many security audits. You guys who are actually using MFA are really in the minority, or working for really large companies that don't have tiny divisions that fly under the radar - We're starting to see more encryption, but it doesn't do any good if you've written your password down on a sticky on your machine, which is still the number one problem.

If these guys were working strictly by most regulations (and I'll admit that I'm not aware of specifically what regulations are required for the BLM), then you wouldn't even be able to access the network without at least some form of authentication. It's possible (but extremely unlikely) that they would have some sort of web portal, similar to what you see in public wifi spots, but it's typically more closely integrated with domain authentication. So if Fry actually did anything other than boot it and marvel that it came up with a linux distro that couldn't do anything, I'm fairly confident that they do not have a robust security infrastructure - He really shouldn't be able to access the network at all.

AGameOfMoans: I am impressed with that setup, although not surprised if you are dealing with sensitive data -- Depending on what that is, there are probably regulatory bodies dictating all the strong auth. I can tell you that you are VERY much in the minority, and that the Fed falls WAY behind here outside of certain systems that access sensitive data.... There are regional branches of Federal govt. bodies still running WinXP. They aren't supposed to, but I can promise you that they are - They've probably just filed some paper somewhere justifying an exemption to some of the policies, that's generally what happens.

I'll drop the sidetrack now, but this is what I do for a living, and I'm still surprised to see how many places that not only should know better than to have lax security, but they have also managed to get some degree of certification that is dictating all the stuff they should do that they aren't actually doing. I know first hand that many fed branches are WAY behind where they should be. Much of this is due to the wonders of "voluntary compliance"
posted by MysticMCJ at 3:26 PM on February 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

Oyeah: The sheerriff wher3 the conspirators are cooling their heels, is facing some complaints. No fever dreams, just worried about the broader, armed movement, all mixed up with politics.

I don't think those sexual harassment charges have anything to do with this situation.

It bears repeating that the Multnomah County Jail (MCDC) is in downtown Portlandia. You would be hard-pressed to find a less sympathetic location for a mass uprising to free the prisoners. It's also a highly secured high-rise building. Not going to happen.

The politics of the Multnomah County Sheriff is a different story. Because the country overlaps Portland nearly exactly, the Sheriff's specific jurisdiction is limited to unincorporated areas of the East County, a poorer, less educated and more crime ridden corner of the county. Also a much smaller one. The Portland police chief has easily 10 times the budget and power of the sheriff.
posted by msalt at 3:33 PM on February 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oregon Patriots Occupied My Butt
posted by RedEmma at 3:48 PM on February 4, 2016 [10 favorites]

This press release [PDF] from Lavoy's family is the first serious use of a parenthetical "if that is even his real name" that I've ever seen. Feels good.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 4:01 PM on February 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

This press release [PDF] from Lavoy's family is the first serious use of a parenthetical "if that is even his real name" that I've ever seen.

To be fair, his real name is Mark of the family McConnell and they're just pinning this on his strawman. But the government will never admit that.
posted by Talez at 4:05 PM on February 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

Bundy Statement

LOL he said "doody".
posted by humanfont at 4:23 PM on February 4, 2016

The computer system is I think fairly relevant to the story, because there was a desire to access files / information to show supposed BLM criminality. And paper files were looked at so attempted theft and theft of confidential information was real.

The statements that were made indicated the information on the hard drives was encrypted (Fry explained during his work around video). They found passwords but that wasn't enough to get (access to use) internet per Melissa Cooper (Vanity Fair article).

So it does seem impressive (to me) how well data was secured even with physical breech. But I have exceeding little knowledge. A question I do have is, why couldn't they just hook another machine directly to the modem or install a wifi router and have internet access that way (presuming it hadn't been turned off)?
posted by phoque at 4:29 PM on February 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

If the Feds want to prosecute Fry for using the computer, then they will most likely charge him under the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, which he surely violated by turning the computer on. The specifics of whether data was encrypted, or if he got on the network won't change the charge (although could add to it I suppose). The CFAA is an extremely broad, blunt tool.
posted by ryanrs at 4:37 PM on February 4, 2016 [6 favorites]

Oregon Patriots Occupied My Butt

From the author of Conquered by Clippy.

These authors love to get meta. This one also has Rammed by the Reviews of This Book, while Chuck Tingle has several including Turned Gay By The Existential Dread That I May Actually Be A Character In A Chuck Tingle Book.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:44 PM on February 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

I missed those statements. Good to see - and I'm glad to have my cynicism countered. I'm glad that it's being taken seriously out to the smaller outposts, as that certainly wasn't always the case. I suppose there have been some high profile breaches since I last had the opportunity to work with a federal network - I'm glad to know it's being taken seriously now, because I've been terrified by what I've seen in the past, and not even going that far back.

There are a couple of reasons I can think of that bringing your own machine or a wifi router wouldn't work... The same network authentication that prevented access to the internet from a live-cd booted machine would likely be applicable to any machines that were brought on site. There are a couple of ways of controlling this - While it may not be a captive portal scenario, it may be the sort of thing where there's a firewall or other network device that is informed when there is a correct login against a central system that will allow the hardware address (the ones burned into the ethernet card - still spoofable, but you have to know what's valid to begin with) that the request originated from to talk to services other than the authentication services.

The other thing that they are supposed to do (but often don't, because it is a pain in the ass) is lock down any port so that only the hardware addresses that it will specifically allow can have access to anything at all on the network. You can combine that with policies that will shut down the port until an admin resets it if it detects a change of that hardware address, or if you are dealing with servers that should stay up, you can have it go down if a device is even unplugged, and stay down until the same admin reset.

Those are GENERALLY the sorts of requirements you will see. I don't think I've ever seen the last one I mentioned in service anywhere, which is incredibly robust and hard to work around, but I've certainly seen the ports locked to addresses. You can work around that one by using a laptop and a crossover cable to attach to the workstation you just disconnected, and then sniffing for the hardware address of that device - you will end up with a valid HW address that you can spoof. Once you have that, you can easily look for other weaknesses.

You also can see other intrusion detection and prevention devices that will shut down access from anything that looks suspicious via various methods, but those are generally more in larger data centers or other server spaces.
posted by MysticMCJ at 4:47 PM on February 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

MetaFilter: an extremely broad, blunt tool
posted by hippybear at 4:49 PM on February 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

Cliven Bundy: an extremely broad, blunt tool.
posted by rtha at 5:30 PM on February 4, 2016 [11 favorites]

Thanks Mystic, I had some faint notions but your explanation makes it much more clear the possible obstacles they were unprepared for.
posted by phoque at 5:31 PM on February 4, 2016

Santelli ordered detained as well after another hearing today
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:37 PM on February 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Apparently publicly professing to previous violations of restraining orders by not handing over weapons doesn't endear you to a judge.
posted by Talez at 5:40 PM on February 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

In which a Time commentator doesn't seem to understand that the entire Oregon militia situation has to do with public land use rights, not private landowner cooperation in wildlife conservation: How Conservationists Could Have Prevented the Oregon Standoff
posted by hippybear at 5:45 PM on February 4, 2016

KOIN on the charges

Occupiers Not Listed In Indictment Could Face Charges
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:48 PM on February 4, 2016

Sharp is doing interviews and has a couple different detail about the runaway event.

She says Ryan was shot in the truck but confirms she was huddled on the floor praying. The next mention is after they surrender and she asks how his shoulder is. He said it didn't hurt and he didn't see a lot of blood. Then after a short while he received medical treatment where they cut away his shirt to see the wound and that medic declared it a bullet in his shoulder at that point.

She also thinks Finicum was shot 3 times because she only heard 3 shots while he was outside of the vehicle before the flash banged barrage began.

She also tells about Ammon's phone call to his wife (4min mark in this clip) from the back of the police van. Ammon still had his phone and when it began ringing she helped him get it out of his coat, then they used it to try get the message out. The police realized they had a phone, stopped and searched them, found it and confiscated it. So according to that they did manage to call.
posted by phoque at 6:17 PM on February 4, 2016

The one time I was arrested, they emptied all my pockets out before they put me in the police vehicle. That's bad policing right there if they didn't search him enough to find a cell phone.
posted by hippybear at 6:24 PM on February 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

The one time I was arrested, they emptied all my pockets out before they put me in the police vehicle. That's bad policing right there if they didn't search him enough to find a cell phone.

It could have been a quick pat down for guns, rather than a more careful search for drugs, needles, and other items. Do they normally take people's cell phones during the initial pat down these days?
posted by Dip Flash at 6:28 PM on February 4, 2016

That's bad policing right there if they didn't search him enough to find a cell phone.

He might have been wearing "tactical" pants, which can have a bewildering array of pockets.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:31 PM on February 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

No clue. I was arrested in 2002, when cell phones weren't what they are today, and I didn't have mine on my person.
posted by hippybear at 6:31 PM on February 4, 2016

I found the original version of Sharp interview without all the banners and third party reposting that may disappear. (Youtube just over 2 hours long).
posted by phoque at 6:58 PM on February 4, 2016

In general, it's standard procedure to perform a thorough search when a person is arrested. US v. Robinson allows for a full search of someone under arrest. There's no reason not to and many reasons to do so.

Do they normally take people's cell phones during the initial pat down these days?

Yes. Until Riley v. California in mid-2014, many police departments could even search your phone (contacts, texts, pictures, and your social media), without a warrant, for any evidence of crimes or associations with persons with outstanding warrants.
posted by peeedro at 7:06 PM on February 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

Also the entire first 35 min of the Sharp interview video is pointless host pontificating.
posted by phoque at 7:07 PM on February 4, 2016

She also thinks Finicum was shot 3 times because she only heard 3 shots while he was outside of the vehicle before the flash banged barrage began.

Didn't she also claim that the car was shot 120 times? And that Finicum had his hands up? File under 'utterly unreliable'.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:13 PM on February 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yes but it is a mix even within the same telling. She also thinks Finicum was shot before he exited the vehicle, and was shot after he was on the ground. So the count is hard to tell. The FBI said they did engage the vehicle as it approached the road block so there was some general shooting at the vehicle.
posted by phoque at 7:17 PM on February 4, 2016

Now that I posted that, 'utterly unreliable' does seem accurate.
posted by phoque at 7:19 PM on February 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

She also thinks Finicum was shot before he exited the vehicle, and was shot after he was on the ground. So the count is hard to tell.

And this, after she has seen the video that shows otherwise.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:21 PM on February 4, 2016

I just went back and to her first interview and it is there the interviewer tells her that news reports Finicum was shot 3 times. No idea who was to have reported that, but I think that is where the 3 shots entered her narrative and thus has left her with a mix of wild shooting but able to distinguish bullets. Also, just to be clear, I don't expect her to be a reliable narrator, but I do find the journey their stories take interesting.
posted by phoque at 8:04 PM on February 4, 2016

Gonzo Journalism in Oregon: Behind Enemy Lines at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge

These guys describe their visit to the refuge including a chat with Ammon. It is a refreshing listen. (Description of the crazy from a sane point of view (except for footage shot there and Cox trying to explain their point)).
posted by phoque at 8:16 PM on February 4, 2016 [11 favorites]

Police check out concerns at Interpretive Center after man acts suspiciously
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:51 PM on February 4, 2016

Weird behavior at an Interpretive Center? Probably someone thinking it was the Interpretive Dance Center.
posted by Bugbread at 9:27 PM on February 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

Although this story has pretty much disappeared from the news media other than local Oregon sources, the Feds seem to be quite concerned that it could blow up.

The Feds have stepped up to 24/7 security at other refuges including Tule Lake and Klamath Marsh in Oregon, Ash Meadows in Nevada, and Modoc in Northern California.

I know volunteers who work with the BLM on monitoring archeologically sites on the northern Arizona strip near the Bundy and Finicum ranches. The BLM has pretty much shut down all agency activity in the area for fear of someone taking potshots at employees or volunteers.
posted by JackFlash at 9:47 PM on February 4, 2016 [6 favorites]

Gonzo Journalism in Oregon: Behind Enemy Lines at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge

These guys describe their visit to the refuge including a chat with Ammon. It is a refreshing listen. (Description of the crazy from a sane point of view (except for footage shot there and Cox trying to explain their point)).

The most interesting part is 24:30 onwards. The FBI didn't cut power because 24 people were on the grid and it would have required a site visit. The FBI didn't raid because there were people ready to execute a guerrilla style insurrection in retaliation.

Jesus Christ. These people are terrorists and they're fucking insane.
posted by Talez at 6:35 AM on February 5, 2016 [9 favorites]

Santelli ordered detained as well after another hearing today

I dig the picture accompanying "Federal judge affirms decision to keep Pete Santilli behind bars in conspiracy case" at OregonLive: Santelli all got up in camo and cowboy garb while the Agent looks like a guy at Lowes on a Saturday morning; Santelli gesticulating and giving orders while the Agent regards him with the cop gaze of doom.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:52 AM on February 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

I do want that "Domestic Tourist" patch.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:59 AM on February 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Santelli's sewn-on 3%er patch and clipped-on Press badge indicate he's a full-time terrorist and only a part-time reporter.
posted by achrise at 7:05 AM on February 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

I want that "Domestic Tourist" patch and a "XCVII%" patch to put on some fatigues for my pinko militia, LATTE (Liberals Armed To the Teeth Everywhere).
posted by Seamus at 7:11 AM on February 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

That "Gonzo journalism" link is fascinating. That was probably the most illuminating first hand account of the occupation that I have seen.
Thanks, phoque.
posted by Seamus at 7:22 AM on February 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

What does that "domestic tourist" patch even mean? I know what domestic tourism is, but...is this some sort of self-identification supporting the fiction that he's just out having a wander, gone to look for America?
posted by Miko at 7:33 AM on February 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think it’s a pun on “domestic terrorist.”
posted by nicepersonality at 7:36 AM on February 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

"Ha ha! Totally kidding about the hanging guns and threatening people thing! Gee, can't you take a joke?" Etc...
posted by Artw at 7:37 AM on February 5, 2016

What does that "domestic tourist" patch even mean? I know what domestic tourism is, but...is this some sort of self-identification supporting the fiction that he's just out having a wander, gone to look for America?

It's from when Harry Reid called the Bundy ranch attendees domestic terrorists and because of his accent it sounded like domestic tourists. So they ran with it.
posted by Talez at 7:39 AM on February 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

That "Gonzo journalism" link is fascinating

Indeed. If you don't have time for the whole thing, skip to minute 52 and see Shawna explaining things.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:40 AM on February 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

What this video makes abundantly clear is that bringing in guns obviates the need for anything beyond the most rudimentary level of shared understanding from their followers.

You don't have to know anything about the Hammonds, know how to pronounce Ammon's name or know him well enough to even know his religion, know the difference between the Constitution or the Declaration of Independence. You don't have to know that the idea of permanently taking over federal buildings to build up an army is preposterous. You don't have to have resources, or smarts, or be physically strong. You just have to be armed.
posted by mochapickle at 7:52 AM on February 5, 2016 [8 favorites]

What it shows is their desperation. They keep talking as if they have millions of ready followers when they can really only muster a few gullible folks that have guns and camo gear gathering dust.
posted by readery at 8:02 AM on February 5, 2016 [5 favorites]

> Gonzo Journalism in Oregon

What's most interesting to me is that these guys are sympathetic to the stated concerns of the militia folk. I had to laugh here, where they say we just wanted to see that they're not, then it turned out they were crazy.
posted by benito.strauss at 9:27 AM on February 5, 2016

They didn't strike me as sympathetic so much as willing to listen and give the militants a chance to explain themselves.
posted by Seamus at 9:35 AM on February 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

That YouTube sidebar is a strange place.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:43 AM on February 5, 2016

They are certainly that. One of them said that they might share concerns about Federal government over-reach, but as I'm listening it seems like they mean something different when they say it than when the occupiers say it.

They seem like two interesting guys, and are shaking up some of my prejudices. An ex-army dude from rural Oregon who seems surprised when someone doesn't get the idea of white privilege? Not what I'd expect.
posted by benito.strauss at 9:48 AM on February 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

I wonder if the one who talks about his boyfriend being uncomfortable in rural Oregon is the former soldier.
posted by Seamus at 10:13 AM on February 5, 2016

Holy crap, the Shawna Cox "lecture" is so much self-serving gibberish bullshit.
By her logic, we can all just go to Craven Bundy's land and claim it and it is OURS!
I'm pretty sure her logic only applies to her and her people.
posted by Seamus at 10:36 AM on February 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

Let me add my thanks to you, phoque, for all the information you've been bringing into these posts. I appreciate it.

The occupiers' idea that "you weren't making good use of this land, so we're going to make better use of it and now we own it"? Wouldn't that have been widely accepted in the U.S. during the 1800's? I know I heard it in a John Wayne movie about The Alamo, and maybe also in my 10th grade U.S. History class. I guess America 2010s just isn't Northern Mexico 1830s.

And that lecture: I'll stand in front of a white board, shake a book at you, make an argument and you're just supposed to shut up and agree with me. I reminded me so much Gene Scott. It really is just a strain of American Pentecostalism with some mushing of the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and Manifest Destiny added to the Bible.
posted by benito.strauss at 11:10 AM on February 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

I reminded me so much Gene Scott.

I kind of love Gene Scott.
posted by OmieWise at 11:11 AM on February 5, 2016

Speaking as a secular Jew, I kinda did too.
posted by benito.strauss at 11:14 AM on February 5, 2016

Though, thinking about it, I can only say that because he and his kind had no power over anyone I loved or cared about. If I had had an aging relative who sent him money I would've been trying to destroy him.
posted by benito.strauss at 11:16 AM on February 5, 2016

Gene Scott was popular among my (Catholic High School) friends. Largely because of his instructions about consecrating Wonder Bread, et al. I think it was the disconnect from what they had been taught, but was never entirely sure.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:22 AM on February 5, 2016

Yeah, my liking of him was only possible in the most abstract way.
posted by OmieWise at 11:36 AM on February 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

People at LaVoy's memorial services are wearing tiny squares of blue tarp.
posted by mochapickle at 11:58 AM on February 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm not kidding.

There's a random YouTube livestream, but there's no footage since the guy on the ground is recharging his camera and the two people streaming from remote are just talking and vaping. And talking about vaping.
posted by mochapickle at 12:05 PM on February 5, 2016

Shawna Cox: The numbers game.
2 Parents
13 children
26 children, including inlaws, (minus one due to tragedy.)
42 grandchildren, to date.

Enough money, land, and beef to sustain 82 people.

Cliven Bundy: the numbers
2 Parents
28 children and spouses
60 grandchildren
Enough money, land, and beef to sustain 90 people

Lavoy Finicum
1 parent
11 children
19 grandchildren, (+2 on the way
Enough money, land, and beef, to sustain 33 people.

Three couples, 205 people includes the inlaws married to adult children. Lavoy Finicum's in laws not included. They think they will put the conserved lands of the west to better use.
posted by Oyéah at 12:11 PM on February 5, 2016 [5 favorites]

No better way to raise a loyal army than to breed it.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:14 PM on February 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/3487461-155/bagley-cartoon-who-elected-ammon-bundy

This cartoon is from the excellent Pat Bagley, of the Salt Lake Tribune.
posted by Oyéah at 12:18 PM on February 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

Clickable link
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 12:22 PM on February 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

The occupiers' idea that "you weren't making good use of this land, so we're going to make better use of it and now we own it"? Wouldn't that have been widely accepted in the U.S. during the 1800's? I know I heard it in a John Wayne movie about The Alamo, and maybe also in my 10th grade U.S. History class. I guess America 2010s just isn't Northern Mexico 1830s.

You have it kind of backwards. Back in the old days you were given land by the legislature if you asked and if you didn't "improve" it by working it you would have it taken away from you. So capital begat capital as a poor person couldn't have possibly worked the land enough to keep it.
posted by Talez at 12:24 PM on February 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

The best starting point for understanding how BLM computers are likely to be protected would be FIPS 200: Minimum Security Requirements for Federal Information and Information systems. FIPS 200 sets a baseline expectation that access to information system media is restricted to "authorized users" -- in practice this will typically mean data is stored on an encrypted harddrive or stored behind one or more locks, whether in a secured file room or secured cabinet -- competent practitioners will know that a LiveCD may be used in an attempt to bypass OS access controls and are very likely to recommend encryption as a control (usually on the mitigating effects in event of theft alone).

Prior risk assessments would determine how resilient those locks or encryption systems would need to be. It's likely that prior risk assessments considered the possibility of break-ins or other unattended access (probably more in the context of identity theft than armed yahoos rummaging through files for kicks). If they're playing by the book, they would be grounding their considered risks in documented security events (such as break ins, vandalism or threats made toward similar facilities).

Of course, conformance with advice inevitably varies.
posted by Matt Oneiros at 12:39 PM on February 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

Back in the old days you were given land by the legislature

And that was through specific, named programs in specific territories and spelled out in contracts - not just a widespread common law, but a particular set of opportunities - often created by interests like railroad companies, who needed to show that there were viable settlements along their proposed lines in order to draw investment. That kind of thing.
posted by Miko at 1:25 PM on February 5, 2016

LAVOY FINICUM IS NOT DEAD! WHERE IS THE DEATH CERTIFICATE? NON OF THE COPS HAD CAMERA’S ON THEM. THE GRANY VIDEO ONLY SHOWS A MAN FALLING DOWN ON THE SNOW. WHO SAYS THATS LAVOY? IT COULD BE N-E 1. WHERE IS THE AWTOPSY? ALEX JONES SAYS IT IS A FALSE FLAG OPERATION. THE FEDS HAVE TAKEN THE REAL LAVOY TO A FEMA CAMP!!!!

I know, it sounds like a joke, but one of the Malheur (and general sovcit) hangers-on wrote that. I mean if Alex Jones says it, it must be so. More seriously, I'm fascinated by the extent to which so many of the participants' announcements aren't only not true, aren't only not even plausible, but change from day to day, being nothing more than what someone wants to imagine at any given moment. It's truly politics-as-fanfic.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:52 PM on February 5, 2016 [7 favorites]

They really love to invoke "False Flag" don't they. It's like SovCit Ketchup. They pour it on everything.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:19 PM on February 5, 2016 [10 favorites]

Rhetorically, I think it functions like "Satan" or "evil spirits."
posted by octobersurprise at 2:31 PM on February 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Or maybe "black magic" would be a better translation.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:33 PM on February 5, 2016

"Any sufficiently convoluted conspiracy is indistinguishable from magic."
posted by octobersurprise at 2:39 PM on February 5, 2016 [10 favorites]

>> Back in the old days you were given land by the legislature

> And that was through specific, named programs in specific territories and spelled out in contracts - not just a widespread common law, but a particular set of opportunities

The settlers who received that land? Those aren't the roles they are LARPing. Well, not the only roles. They see themselves as the government that took the land from the Mexicans and the Native Americans. They are also the settlers who they give the land to, to work and make productive. I'm not saying it's any more valid or tenable; I'm saying it's a better description of how they see themselves.
posted by benito.strauss at 2:41 PM on February 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

People at LaVoy's memorial services are wearing tiny squares of blue tarp.

"Hey, you...you've got something stuck to your shirt."

"That's on purpose."

"Oh. Okay."
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 3:59 PM on February 5, 2016

Well, at least one Bundy is going to jail.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:20 PM on February 5, 2016

one of the rancher’s 14 children

TBF, odds were good one of them would be in jail.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:31 PM on February 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

Cliven Jr. got sent to jail a year back (feb 4 '15)...Still, always nice to see a Bundy appropriately fenced in.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 4:34 PM on February 5, 2016

And as typical, arrested for trespassing with ATVs on protected BLM land.
posted by JackFlash at 4:52 PM on February 5, 2016

Two puroported recordings of David Fry are making their way around twitter. I won't link cause I don't want to give them any more page views.
In the first recording Fry is upset that the PPN has called off a planned March/rescue attempt on Saturday. In the second he is saying a dramatic farewell as he expects the FBI to come kill them at any minute.
posted by humanfont at 5:11 PM on February 5, 2016

Please link !
Must... have.... more.... Fry.......
_{I can quit anytime I want to. Really}
posted by AGameOfMoans at 5:36 PM on February 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

Oh noes! Turns out that law firm led by that lawyer sanctioned for giving alcohol to a young minor he was legally in charge of... turns out he may have committed several ethical violations in taking on the Bundy case. Hey - who say that coming ??

Ethical Questions Surround Ammon Bundy’s Legal Team, Strategy
posted by AGameOfMoans at 5:38 PM on February 5, 2016 [7 favorites]

Must... have.... more.... Fry.......

I dunno, I think it's getting a little repetitive, and I think the problem is they voted too many wingnuts off the preserve.

So my proposal is this: let's grab a few assholes, say Roosh, Shkreli, and maybe that techdouche that got his Tesla reservation cancelled by Musk. Let's drop them in the refuge, and turn the cameras back on.
posted by happyroach at 5:47 PM on February 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

I found the Fry links
posted by AGameOfMoans at 5:47 PM on February 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

Ethical Questions Surround Ammon Bundy’s Legal Team, Strategy

Not only did the attorney's seem to violated ethical solicitation rules, they counselled Bundy on limiting his exposure:

"Another question hanging over the case is whether attorneys advised militant leaders to pin certain crimes on younger militants and new recruits."

"An OPB reporter saw militant leader Ryan Payne, who headed the security team at the refuge before he was arrested, giving orders to young militants. Some of them had arrived at the refuge hours before and were new to the group. Payne was also seen stopping now deceased militant Robert “LaVoy” Finicum from getting into a white, federally owned truck. “You don’t do that, have them do that,” Payne said as he pointed a new arrival who went by the name of “Joe.” An OPB reporter also witnessed Ammon Bundy telling television journalists that he would not drive federally owned vehicles, use federal computers, or engage in other illegal activities that other, rank-and-file, militants had done. Ryan Bundy was asked about his brother’s comments, and acknowledged militant leaders would not engage in those visible crimes, because younger militants and newer recruits were less likely to be prosecuted."

That's more than ethical violations, that's co-conspirators.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:57 PM on February 5, 2016 [6 favorites]

I dunno, I think it's getting a little repetitive, and I think the problem is they voted too many wingnuts off the preserve.

So my proposal is this: let's grab a few assholes, say Roosh, Shkreli, and maybe that techdouche that got his Tesla reservation cancelled by Musk. Let's drop them in the refuge, and turn the cameras back on.

Don't forget the fences, Klieg lights and camera drones
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:58 PM on February 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

I wonder if the two lawyers could be compelled to testify about what they saw at the refuge as Bundy was not a client at the time. Would the usual rules of attorney-client privilege apply? Also doesn't the fact that these lawyers are witnesses to the crimes of their defendants compromise their ability to defend Bundy?
posted by humanfont at 6:00 PM on February 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

I wonder if the two lawyers could be compelled to testify about what they saw at the refuge as Bundy was not a client at the time. Would the usual rules of attorney-client privilege apply? Also doesn't the fact that these lawyers are witnesses to the crimes of their defendants compromise their ability to defend Bundy?

They could be compelled as privilege is usually waived in regards to discussing how to commit a crime but they could also plead the 5th so the question is kind of moot.
posted by Talez at 6:07 PM on February 5, 2016

It's NOT moot if the judge wears a gold braid and does three counter-clockwise twirlies!
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:10 PM on February 5, 2016 [10 favorites]

I found the Fry links

Interesting that he explicitly calls out the PPN. Ammo told them they weren't needed early in the whole thing. I'm wondering what this does to militias' internal trust.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:24 PM on February 5, 2016

Metafilter: He might have been wearing "tactical" pants.
posted by sneebler at 6:32 PM on February 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

He might have been wearing "tactical" pants.

That’s definitely going to be a lyric in the musical I’m working on.
posted by bongo_x at 7:28 PM on February 5, 2016 [4 favorites]

I really hope that the Oregon lawyers realize how crazy their clients are. That would be a reality show to watch - "she's a Harvard lawyer, he's a sovereign citizen"
posted by mrzarquon at 8:03 PM on February 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

I amused myself thinking man what would happen if these guys stay in the Multnomah jail long enough to draw protestors to Portland .

And then I remember my office building also contains federal departments on some floors. Specifically the social security administration department.

Fuck.
posted by mrzarquon at 8:14 PM on February 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

Don't worry. Right wing extremists are usually on welfare. They won't fuck with their checks.
posted by Talez at 8:23 PM on February 5, 2016 [8 favorites]

Burns people put up billboards commending the local police. and one to tell the militants they are not needed. The billboard company is providing the service at no charge until the whole thing blows over. Yeah Burns!
posted by Oyéah at 8:48 PM on February 5, 2016 [13 favorites]

Um, aren't all pants tactical? I know I wouldn't wear them if they didn't have reasons.
posted by yesster at 8:56 PM on February 5, 2016 [9 favorites]

What would be considered strategic pants?
posted by MysticMCJ at 9:12 PM on February 5, 2016 [5 favorites]

If you're at a leather bar... chaps with a jock strap would be considered strategic pants.
posted by hippybear at 9:13 PM on February 5, 2016 [12 favorites]

That's weapons-grade strategic, right there.
posted by yesster at 9:15 PM on February 5, 2016

OK, to be perfectly honest, it is the implicit threat that I could be pantsless that is the tactical part. YPMV.
posted by yesster at 9:18 PM on February 5, 2016

New mefi sockpuppet name: tactical pantslessness.
posted by mochapickle at 9:21 PM on February 5, 2016 [2 favorites]

If you are planning to use tactical trousers in a song, it will have to be in 3/4 time, for instance...

Tactical trowsers and fingerless mittens,
Kalishnikov loaded, pancakes in the kitchen,
Wild geese that fly with the moon on their wings,
These are a few of my favorite things.
Then the gunfights, and the rounds sting,
And I'm feeling sad, I simply remember my natural law,
And then I don't feel so bad.

(sung to the tune of My Favorite Things)
posted by Oyéah at 9:37 PM on February 5, 2016 [16 favorites]

Second amendment and personal rights,
Manifest destiny and county court fights,
Docile fat bovine that graze on "free lands,"
These are a few of my favorite things.

When the feds fight, and they're not right,
And I'm feeeling unheard, I simply remember that when it's this bad,
I can just occupy Federal land.
posted by yesster at 9:50 PM on February 5, 2016 [7 favorites]

Re: the tacticality of pants: When there is a strange noise in the night, who among us does not reach first for their pants?
posted by notyou at 10:31 PM on February 5, 2016 [3 favorites]

I just renewed my concealed handgun license, and the very first item on the helpful "never ever bring your gun to these places" flyer they include with the license is any federal facility. (Doing so is worth up to a year in jail, with larger penalties if other crimes are committed at the same time.) I hope the DOJ has a basement room full of interns all watching news footage and youtube broadcasts of the occupation, noting who is carrying guns indoors and counting how many times they appear.

I can't help but think that the militants made a serious tactical error by breaking into and trashing the buildings, rather than camping out in RVs in the parking lot. It made them look way less sympathetic and more out of control, and raised the stakes (particularly with the artifacts and the file systems).
posted by Dip Flash at 11:04 PM on February 5, 2016 [6 favorites]

Breaking in and claiming ownership is consistent with their stance that they own it because the federal government secretly doesn't exist according to the constitution or something.

What would be considered strategic pants?

There's rocking a codpiece, but there's a chance that's small unit tactics.
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:23 AM on February 6, 2016 [8 favorites]

Yeah, they thought they were really establishing ownership, which is the point of making "improvements" like the fence cutting and "road." Although the cite above about the leaders fobbing off more questional acts like driving Federal vehicles to the munchkin class does make me wonder where their sense of reality comes into play.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:05 AM on February 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

♫In my practical, ♪ tactical, ♫ FANTASTICAL ♪ PAAAAAANTS!♪♫
posted by Trochanter at 8:32 AM on February 6, 2016 [5 favorites]

Tactical songs for tactical pants.
Tactical songs for tactical pants.
Tactical songs for tactical pants.
....Yada Yada Yada....
(Closing number)
Memory, all alone in the moonlight
I can dream of my old pants
Life was beautiful then
I remember the time I had tactical pants
Let the memory live again
posted by humanfont at 8:54 AM on February 6, 2016 [2 favorites]

If you're at a leather bar... chaps with a jock strap would be considered strategic pants.

Elsewhere, that would be considered strategic deterrent pants. You keep them in your closet and everyone knows they have to be careful not to create the kind of situation where you'll wear the pants.
posted by ctmf at 10:08 AM on February 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

Pocket constitutions and moon press credentials
Cigarettes and snacks - survival essentials
Bullets and burner phones to talk to my fans
These are the things in my tactical pants

When the feds raid, when they cuff my hands
When the government gets too big
I simply remember my tactical pants
And then I don't feel so bad
posted by sporkwort at 10:24 AM on February 6, 2016 [8 favorites]

The Great Republican Land Heist - Cliven Bundy and the politicians who are plundering the West

from 'A letter from Nevada' by Christopher Ketcham, Feb 2015 Harpers

I don't know if this was in the last thread, but it offers a lot of history
posted by readery at 10:52 AM on February 6, 2016 [4 favorites]

I have to say - I seriously love how the conversation [d]evolved from tactical pants here. From the songs to the fact that I pretty much knew that hippybear would be the first to respond to my question -- this site will always be the best.
posted by MysticMCJ at 10:56 AM on February 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

> "Tactical Pants"

"Can't let the gubmint cuff you.
Or Moroni'll rebuff you."
posted by msalt at 11:26 AM on February 6, 2016

So despite mumblings, no cavalry/militia group/army of killer angels has yet come for the final four. OPB reports that a new sign at the roadblock five miles from the refuge warns that those who enter are subject to arrest.

With the cooperation of the FBI, the four have been talking regularly with Franklin Graham, son of Billy Graham.
posted by mochapickle at 11:29 AM on February 6, 2016

It is no wonder to me that the American Legislative Exchange Council and other conservative operatives just love the resurgence of the "Know Nothing" contingent of the Republican Party. To folks that believe there is nothing worse than professors, long term studies and other elitist traps, the western grasslands and mountains are only what we see right in the moment. The Dustbowl was sent by god or something. All early settlers were brave and industrious. If the only historical narratives you know of are the Mormon mythology and Laura Ingalls Wilder, Manifest Destiny makes so much sense. But any deeper study tells an entirely different story. So many early settlers could not support themselves on land that was not suitable for the style of agriculture they understood. Or could be for a generation but soon the soil was just played out without giant chemical infusions that grew ADM and DuPont.

Robert Caro describes this very evocatively in the first volume of his biography of Lyndon Johnson. When first settled the Texas hill country looked perfect for farming. Within a generation people who had settled there were dirt poor, not realizing that the verdant hills were due to plant life that had evolved to grow in the thin topsoil. These militia knuckleheads are determined to believe myth over reality, unfortunately to the peril of our planet.

And what particularly pissed me off from the Harpers article was the Bundy's participation in an ATV ride thru archaeological significant canyon lands in southern Utah. What assholes.
posted by readery at 11:30 AM on February 6, 2016 [11 favorites]

and Franklin has been posting regularly on Twitter making sure he gets his 15 minutes of fame out of this as well. He's asking people to "Pray for the protesters (sic)"
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:32 AM on February 6, 2016

Franklin is a piece of work. But he's the LORD's piece of work.
posted by mochapickle at 11:38 AM on February 6, 2016

i wonder how sovcits feel about smoking at gas pumps
posted by indubitable at 11:38 AM on February 6, 2016

A Tale of Two Sheriffs.
posted by gamera at 12:01 PM on February 6, 2016 [3 favorites]

readery's Harpers piece is really good.

Oh, look who's here: ALEC.
posted by Trochanter at 12:31 PM on February 6, 2016 [1 favorite]

> Don't worry. Right wing extremists are usually on welfare.

Except the Sovereign Citizen movement sees the Social Security group as the people who control their secret government identity checks - I really don't want to see them trying to perform their legal rituals in my office lobby.
posted by mrzarquon at 12:38 PM on February 6, 2016

So the Fry show continues. Apparently he has access to more phones and talked to some youtube interviewer today.
He has completely turned against the PPP - calls them liars, etc.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:42 PM on February 6, 2016

Oregon standoff: LaVoy Finicum memorial torn down and rebuilt
posted by hippybear at 12:54 AM on February 7, 2016

I have to say that the impact of this candlelight vigil is lessened by daylight. And is that a CRT based karoke machine? Way retro...
posted by mikelieman at 1:11 AM on February 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

On a more positive note, there's one think conspicuously absent from that candlelight vigil: guns.
posted by achrise at 7:06 AM on February 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

They're trying to change the narrative.
The claim all over the "patriot"-sphere is that was always a peaceful protest and that LeRoy Ficus was murdered in cold blood with no provocation. Not taking guns to a memorial seems to be part of that.
But these people act as if their actions in the month before the suicide by cop hadn't been meticulously documented.
posted by Seamus at 8:32 AM on February 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

The Finicum family made his custom coffin, in short order. He went to Oregon without a change of clothes, unless you count the tarp. I maintain still, the Oregon gambit was more than a death with dignity plan.
posted by Oyéah at 9:04 AM on February 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

The claim all over the "patriot"-sphere is that was always a peaceful protest

Mmmm. The catch there is that I'm pretty sure that the patriot movement doesn't see any contradiction between "heavily armed" and "peaceful". I mean, they didn't actually shoot anybody, right? Therefore, "peaceful" protest (is what they think.)

Not saying you're wrong about them attempting to skew the narrative, now that they've maybe finally figured out that the occupation didn't play as well with the general public as they thought it would. Just sort of thinking about how they can believe that it was a "peaceful" protest and occupation.
posted by soundguy99 at 10:21 AM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

So Shawna Cox was given permission to attend Finicum's funeral. (PDF of motion) The argument was made based on religious freedom.
Judge handling Oregon standoff case allows defendant to attend LaVoy Finicum funeral
Harris (Cox's lawyer) said Cox's family had ties to Finicum's family. Her father, who was a schoolteacher in the town of less than 4,500 people, had taught Finicum's father and his children, she said. She said she also thought that one of Cox's daughters is married to one of Finicum's brothers.

This makes me wonder about age and the aspects of cult because I was watching a live stream and a Youtuber had a women covering events, but when she approached many women to chat about where they were from and how they knew LaVoy, they would seems flustered and say "I'll get my husband". It was reflexive as if they were not allowed to speak on their own behalf or have their own thoughts. It was just disturbingly controlling and backwards.

One interview they did was with James Stanton (refuge occupier with the wheelchair) who claimed the FBI came to his home to talk to him. Says his son slammed the door in their face. Then he decided to confront them. He told them to disarm if they wished talk. Says they complied. Then he asked them to pray with him to help him overcome his hatred for them. They agreed, but he was required to tell them "we get on our knees when we pray in this house". Much bravado, I doubt his story. He is spent eight days at the refuge (left because he was tired and dirty). His plan for getting into the refuge sounds like he was going to tell them he had a bomb. He is also the guy who gave Ammon the Navy uniform Ammon displayed among other trinkets to show grand support.

In the same video (bit prior) Brand Thornton is seen there with shofar in hand. The interviewer asks about a warrant out for his arrest, he believes there is one so hasn't returned to his home. They talk to him a bit, but between wind and low battery much is missed. Then again he doesn't have anything of note to recount. He believes it was right. He believes there just need to be more militia and the National Guard. Mentions the Mormon militia, says it became the 222nd National Guard. It's like they think the State of Deseret can happen.
Interview with Brand Thornton on Soundcloud part1 and part2. Rather dull, he tells about the meeting and the takeover. Thinks they out maneuvered the FBI who were set for a showdown at the Hammond ranch. Insists he was unarmed and was concerned there would be people at the refuge and wanted to avoid taking hostages and was ready to fight for their release ... shows mindset a bit. They take calls and it is all just reinforcement of great cause. In part 2 he provides his analysis of the shooting. He was away from the refuge the day of the arrests but had planned to return. It is total conspiracy theory. Hired mercenaries did the killing. More calls and it all slides down hill.

Blaine Cooper was reportedly at the funeral. Dallas Ahrens (another refuge occupier) mentioned it during the hearse and “memo­r­ial horse ride” organized by for­mer Mal­heur occu­pier Wes Kjar (according to ADL).

The ADL article;
Robert “LaVoy” Finicum: The Making of a Martyr
Upon learn­ing of Finicum’s death, “Patriot” move­ment adher­ents imme­di­ately claimed that he was mur­dered, though ini­tial accounts from other occu­pants of the vehi­cles were con­fused and con­tra­dic­tory. The FBI pub­licly released the heli­copter video rather quickly—in a clear attempt to quell rumors about the shooting—and, to most view­ers, the shoot­ing is likely to appear to have been jus­ti­fied. How­ever, anti-government extrem­ists watch­ing the video have per­ceived largely what they wanted to see on it and have inter­preted the video as still more evi­dence that Finicum was mur­dered. Extrem­ists have widely shared the video, which is typ­i­cally described as proof of Finicum’s “ambush and murder.”

Even before the video was released, the process of turn­ing Finicum into a mar­tyr had already begun. As news of his death spread, extrem­ists on social media cre­ated a wide array of graphic memes pro­claim­ing Finicum a mar­tyred hero. One self-declared “lib­erty speaker” from Wash­ing­ton state, Gavin Seim, uploaded a short video about Finicum titled “The Edge of Rev­o­lu­tion.” In the video, Seim describes Finicum as “one of the finest patri­ots that Amer­ica could hope to have,” who showed peo­ple “what it was like to be a found­ing father.” Seim urged view­ers to “rise for lib­erty,” claim­ing that “we can no longer allow the gov­ern­ment to mur­der and abuse and terrorize…These crim­i­nals spilled blood yes­ter­day.” Within two days, Seim’s video had received over 110,000 views. (I think they meant 10 000 as the mentioned video is nothing great just Seim buzzing away like a half burn light bulb. He also just received a call from Fry on a working phone they found at the refuge.

In completely unwatchable report of refuge stay, occupier Ken Dost, he inhabits his own universe and believes patents are based on Sharia law due to the Vatican and many "they" making money on what belongs to you ... I don't even know. He saw Federal agents everywhere and anyone who disagreed is either working for or intimidated by them. He was excited that he got to put forward his ideas to the refuge group and "they got it!", except for many who it just went over their heads. Then he goes into his spiel with a "this is the simplest way to explain it" ... I didn't understand a thing, I can sort of get where notions he is twisting come from but it is incomprehensible gibberish. Then he gets sidetracked and steams around in circles repeating his buzz word filled shtick.

The ethics of Bundy's lawyers will be interesting to see what comes of it. They certainly decided to hook their wagon to Bundy and parade him for self promotion. They claim that the recordings are done during attorney client discussions and are being put out to provide transparency. But it seems more aligned to circumvent any restrictions he may have communicating from confinement. In their latest propaganda piece the made a picture poster that reads;
Ammon's Armory: armed with...
Reporters & Microphones (photo of Ammond at refuge media scrum)
Computers & Research (Ammon at a desk with closed notebook computer)
Handshakes (Ammon and FBI (arrow and FBI label))
Lawyers & Due Process Rights (picture of Ammon's lawyers addressing reporters)
Armed with the Constitution (Ammon with Skousen pamphlet in pocket)
Arm yourself with peaceful discourse.
Argue. Disagree. Be Citizens.

These people are full of shit. I get it is their job to provide the best defense possible, but misconstruing his actions as a proper path to follow ... is walking a line close to instigating.

The other lawyer who went to the refuge, Todd Macfarlane, he became Finicum's family lawyer and was also at the funeral. Doesn't say much (touches on private autopsy being withheld until the official release) and has to run off in the middle but comes back to say nothing further.
posted by phoque at 11:00 AM on February 7, 2016 [12 favorites]

That's is am amazing post there phoque - than you :)
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:14 AM on February 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Phoque: that Gavin Seim video that you link to ("the mentioned video") is just full of all kinds of crazy. Wild fanatical eyes combined with bad teeth and weirdly violent head motions all speak of someone not all there. With just a slightly larger beard you can easily imagine that Seim guy speaking from an AL-Queda video.

I think such religious extremism may be a larger issue for the U.S. in the future than I had originally thought.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 11:32 AM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Phoque: that Gavin Seim video that you link to ("the mentioned video") is just full of all kinds of crazy. Wild fanatical eyes combined with bad teeth and weirdly violent head motions all speak of someone not all there. With just a slightly larger beard you can easily imagine that Seim guy speaking from an AL-Queda video.

Either he was linked directly in a comment here a while back, or a linked video took me to him indirectly, but I ended up watching some of his cop-watch videos a month or two ago. He is definitely all kinds of crazy and a complete thorn in the ass of his local police department. He has an impressive tenacity and it is interesting to see each encounter become a test of official patience in the face of his ankle-biting. Even when he is right (which given the poor state of local policing, he sometimes is), he comes off as abrasive and crazy.
posted by Dip Flash at 11:45 AM on February 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fry made and posted a new video this afternoon.

He talks about - I kid you not - people without morals running around and trashing things (in ref to Finicums dirt memorial) . He shaved off the beard, looks thinner and actually less cray-cray (if you don't listen to the words) . He is still talking about and calling for people to rise up and come help him. Same old same old minus the beard.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 1:34 PM on February 7, 2016

Fry made and posted a new video this afternoon.

Transcripts of that video have Fry calling for the shooting of everyone who opposes him and the occupiers and their ilk.

He's slowly winding his way to what he clearly considers his inevitable suicide by cop. Hopefully the FBI won't give him what he wants.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 2:24 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

I could be WAY wrong but I don't think people like Fry actually do the suicide by cop thing. Big talkers but not much doing in that department in my opinion. The dangerous thing is that he is in the presence of Anderson who is stupid enough and pig headed enough to do just that and take Fry along for the ride. If the FBI could only somehow separate the two, physically or emotionally, at least one life would be saved.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 2:58 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

I could be WAY wrong but I don't think people like Fry actually do the suicide by cop thing.

I hope you're right.

But they still have guns around, and been talking about how he's going to be killed by the authorities, and now he's talking about killing all who stand in their way. In that context, if eventually the cops decide to evict them by force, all he has to do is make one wrong move and they'll feel that they have to shoot him.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:07 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oh Mr. Fry is ready to get back into the dating scene. All shaved and showing dimples. He has met some young constitutionalist woman. So sweet. Also those of you into reading facial code, he is all over the road.

Maybe he is now ready for Good Morning 'merica.
posted by Oyéah at 3:35 PM on February 7, 2016

Fry posted yet another video - showing their camp - the place is utterly trashed as you might imagine. He then documents himself committing several crimes, states they are crimes and goes ahead and does them, Claims he is taunting the Feds by doing that. The amount of disconnect from reality is completely unbelievable. Also right now, somewhere in an office in Hollywood, someone is being pitched "Real Crimes of the Sovereign Citizen"
posted by AGameOfMoans at 3:43 PM on February 7, 2016

The amount of disconnect from reality is completely unbelievable.

I just watched that video, and he is flying way out past reality. It would be funny if there weren't all the threats of violence. Is there even any way to negotiate with people like this who are total loons?
posted by Dip Flash at 4:11 PM on February 7, 2016

I'm not at all sanguine about him. He has detached and has said in many ways he doesn't see his life as worth anything. I've always been taught never to take self-destructive language as histrionic. I hope they can take him into custody without violence, as it does seem like he wants to go out positioned as a hero, and these videos are ways to set that up.
posted by Miko at 4:28 PM on February 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

Buried the lede there: the government bought PT Cruisers? Who's responsible for that?
posted by ctmf at 4:30 PM on February 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

The government bought PT Cruisers? Who's responsible for that?

Hey, this is the government that bought F35s.
posted by spitbull at 4:41 PM on February 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'm not up on my car models. What's the problem with PT Cruisers? Are they really expensive, or really poorly made, or what?
posted by Bugbread at 4:47 PM on February 7, 2016

They're made for people who really like ZZ Top.
posted by Artw at 4:50 PM on February 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

I maintain still, the Oregon gambit was more than a death with dignity plan.

Did you mean "no" more than a death with dignity plan?
posted by Juffo-Wup at 4:51 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

They were cheaper than a full-size Chevy Silverado [or whatever it is] that he drives next. Trucks are shockingly expensive.
posted by Miko at 4:52 PM on February 7, 2016

What's the problem with PT Cruisers?

If you have to ask, be grateful you've never driven one.

And I really like ZZ Top. And drive a Mazda.
posted by spitbull at 4:59 PM on February 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Dignity" lol.
posted by spitbull at 5:01 PM on February 7, 2016

I mean dignity was not enough, he wanted a hero's death rather than something more commonplace, and he had a book to sell. Life is too short to read bad books. Then I imagine trying to teach American Government in Kanab, Utah, with Shawna Cox beating down your class door over the fine points.

Looks like they have propane cannisters everywhere to make driving in suddenly, an iffy proposition. Bad time to be out camping. They are an expensive, little problem. That is all, neither the locals or the feds have to do anything. David is going to terrorise himself aplenty. David has nothing left to do, but touch the people's property, and strut and fret his hour on his stage. It is time for that big Jesus hologram, we all heard so much about. Time for a hive of aggressive bees. Time to turn off the mini-spectacle.
posted by Oyéah at 5:08 PM on February 7, 2016

I noticed the propane and gasoline cans in the videos as well. So basically you can't even throw a bunch of flash-bangs into the camp with out creating instant fried martyr. Same thing with a shoot out.. Can't drive an APC through it without risking the vehicle and personnel. Water canons maybe?
posted by AGameOfMoans at 5:14 PM on February 7, 2016

dozens of relentlessly friendly cats
posted by indubitable at 5:16 PM on February 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

Er, okay, explain to me like I'm five. Despite being raised in Texas, I've never met anyone who liked ZZ Top, so I have no idea what kind of person that would be or why it's a big deal that the government bought a truck that a ZZ Top fan would like. So it's an image thing? They're super retro / 80s vehicles or something? Like the government buying station wagons with wood paneling? Or, going off what spitbull said, it's a handling thing? They don't handle well?
posted by Bugbread at 5:48 PM on February 7, 2016

My mother had a PT Cruiser that I borrowed for a week once.. The best I can say about it is, driving one is a lot like driving a couch. And not in a good way.
posted by hippybear at 5:54 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

So it's an image thing? They're super retro / 80s vehicles or something? Like the government buying station wagons with wood paneling? Or, going off what spitbull said, it's a handling thing? They don't handle well?

Yes.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:55 PM on February 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

They are basically cheap little station wagons that were insanely popular at release (like 25% over MRSP) because of their looks. Like many cars that aren't pablum boring the looks were pretty polarizing.

Sadly they suffered from that engine series head gasket problems so they weren't as reliable as say a new Toyota so the buyers who only care about reliability double hated them.
posted by Mitheral at 6:18 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Ah, okay, so both. Retro and crappy.

That actually sounds pretty typical for the government.
posted by Bugbread at 6:19 PM on February 7, 2016

What's wrong with the PT Cruiser?

Warning: reddit
posted by ctmf at 6:21 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Ya, Polarizing.

Oh and they were actually a pretty good choice for US Government purchasing. Domestic, cheap (once out of the honeymoon period), fairly roomy, decent gas mileage (boosting CAFE was the only reason Chrysler built them in the first place). And the head gasket problems generally only occurred after they were out of warranty so likely to already to have been disposed of by the government.
posted by Mitheral at 6:26 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Bit of a derail here folks ???
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:27 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

What's life without whimsy?
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 6:28 PM on February 7, 2016 [7 favorites]

My life?
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:29 PM on February 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

My experience with GSA vehicles is that you can request a vehicle from a category ("four wheel drive half-ton crew cab pickup" or "hybrid passenger sedan," say) but within that category you get whatever domestic vehicle was low bid in the last purchasing cycle. Sometimes it is decent, sometimes it is a dog. Usually they are a base model but once in a while it will be a luxury trim package as a surprise treat. They stopped selling the PT Cruisers in 2010, so it is odd that the refuge is still using one -- I think GSA cars get swapped out at five years or 75,000 miles, and in a rural location like that they should be racking on the miles (unless no one wants to drive the PT and it just sits most of the time).

They were cheaper than a full-size Chevy Silverado [or whatever it is] that he drives next. Trucks are shockingly expensive.

I'm surprised that they have any vehicles at all that aren't 4wd trucks and SUVs, given the seasonal conditions on refuge roads and the need to haul ATVs. Most agency field offices will only have high clearance four wheel drives, usually set up to tow at least a utility trailer. The extra cost in lease payments and fuel is simply an operational cost for doing natural resource work in the field and gets built into budget planning. The preference is for 3/4 and one ton trucks because they handle rough use and loads a lot better than the half tons, which these days are set up more for highway driving.

There's a GSA auction place I pass all the time, but having seen how they are treated I'd never buy one. I'd especially not want to buy one of the ones that the militants have been abusing for the last month.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:31 PM on February 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Mod note: Come on, guys, this is too long a thread for a complete derail.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 6:35 PM on February 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

Most uncomfortable car I've ever rented...
posted by Windopaene at 6:43 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oh lord thank christ i found this thread i was this close to buying a PT cruiser
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:11 PM on February 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

Based on today's video is appears he is lulled into complacency.
posted by humanfont at 7:14 PM on February 7, 2016

David uploaded a new video where Sean and Sandy talk. More of the same-- "If we turn ourselves in for something we didn't do..." as they continue doing that illegal thing they claim they didn't do.
posted by bluecore at 9:12 PM on February 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Water canons maybe?

Wasp nests loaded into catapults.
posted by happyroach at 9:17 PM on February 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

They're gonna run out of drugs, booze, and smokes; however it doesn't look like they're gonna run out of crazy, anytime soon.
posted by Oyéah at 9:32 PM on February 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Who can help them? They are well and truly trapped with crazy David. They went out and did an idealistic thing by their own private Idaho way of thinking. They must be out of intoxicants, and the gravity of their situation has set in. They need help out of the mess. Their logic is not my logic, and I feel for them. He just understood, for the first time, what is lost when one commits a felony.
posted by Oyéah at 9:44 PM on February 7, 2016

In his latest video - just a few minutes ago - Fry implores us to fix our nuclear plants instead of arresting him. Those following this debacle will recall that one of Fry's obsessions is that nuclear plants are killing us all. It's sad and pathetic.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:53 PM on February 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

This is turning out to be more like the Montana Freemen, who lasted 81 days after the arrest of the leaders, than anything else. Settle in, the FBI isn't going in hot, and Fry/Sean are both certifiable, so logical negotiation is fighting a sisyphean battle. It's going to take something changing, like running out of food, to bring them to the table. That might be April.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:13 PM on February 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Any chance they could erect a large inflatable reactor dome nearby?
posted by Artw at 10:14 PM on February 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

AGameOfMoans: "In his latest video - just a few minutes ago - Fry implores us to fix our nuclear plants instead of arresting him."

Man, I knew that having a Federal Bureau of Infrastructure and a Federal Bureau of Investigation was going to end up confusing somebody some day.
posted by Bugbread at 10:34 PM on February 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

T.D. Strange: "It's going to take something changing, like running out of food, to bring them to the table. That might be April."

Yeah, the main impact Sean and Fry are going to end up having on the FBI is that they're going to give a bunch of agents a ton of overtime pay.
posted by Bugbread at 10:38 PM on February 7, 2016 [7 favorites]

The sandhill cranes begin arriving at Malheur in the next week or two which is a really big deal annually for birders. Birders are going to be very upset if they can't get in. And the confrontation between birders and militants in Burns should be interesting. Image the surveillance paranoia when hundreds of people show up with binoculars, spotting scopes and cameras.
posted by JackFlash at 11:02 PM on February 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

Oh, come on, nobody believes that there are actually people out there who just look at birds. The whole so-called "Birder Movement" was created in the 1940s as cover for FBI and CIA field operatives. It's the same thing as they did with making up "Furries" in order to ensure agents could perform covert operation of hotel staff and Deviant Art users while maintaining their anonymity.
posted by Bugbread at 11:48 PM on February 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

I spent a week hosting a birding group in Denali. They were the sweetest, loveliest, most charming people. And then we put them on one of the park tour buses -- there were actual skirmishes to get the window seats.

In a cage match between the Foolish Four and an equal number of birders during sandhill migration, my money's on the birders all the way.
posted by mochapickle at 12:11 AM on February 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

I can sympathize with wanting to stay in their shitty camp rather than going to jail. At this point that's probably what's driving them on a day-to-day basis.
posted by ryanrs at 12:47 AM on February 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

I mean, I hear they don't even let you take your guns into jail.

It's downright unconstitutional.
posted by running order squabble fest at 4:42 AM on February 8, 2016 [11 favorites]

They're made for people who really like ZZ Top

I would pay to watch Greasy Dave sing "Sharp Dressed Man" in his next video.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:22 AM on February 8, 2016

Hey, maybe they could do tricks for payment and survive that way! Can you eat Bitcoins?
posted by contraption at 8:11 AM on February 8, 2016

I am surprised crazy dave can still broadcast. I suppose the feds know the only thing keeping Dave from murder suiciding the whole bunch of them is his Napoleonic media spouting. Talking nuclear now is grasping at thoughts, grasping at relevance. He is indulging in peculiar paranoid denial, invoking a worrisome leaky nuclear reactor, three thousand miles plus, away from the very real problems he has. Always projecting the heroic role, wearing now his revolutionary hat. Sean and Sandy are out of drugs, they were sadly sober in their video. It is also interesting that Dave can read the news, from around the country.

I want to find out if some major Utah players are working to get the Bundys out earlier than the 24th of February hearings.
posted by Oyéah at 9:45 AM on February 8, 2016

I'm guessing they have been listening to a lot of AM talk radio. Going on about the Clintons (the Marc Rich pardon and the Hillary emails) and the nuclear plants seems like Alex Jones stuff.
posted by peeedro at 9:56 AM on February 8, 2016

A nuclear plant in New York is leaking radioactivity into groundwater. Ha ha they are maintaining there is no threat to public health. This is Huffpo I think. He is reading regular news. I forgot about radios being a means of incoming. Maybe they have a shortwave, even.
posted by Oyéah at 10:11 AM on February 8, 2016

In this video yesterday, Fry says "supplies are not unlimited". Could be that they're already running low on things.

Speculation on twitter yesterday that supporters may have sent pre-paid SIM cards before the arrests and siege, maybe they went rummaging yesterday and found more that were not blocked yet.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:26 AM on February 8, 2016

> More of the same-- "If we turn ourselves in for something we didn't do..." as they continue doing that illegal thing they claim they didn't do

The "Sean and Sandy stand tall!" video where they never get off the sofa. They're standing tall on the inside, I guess.
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:12 AM on February 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

I wonder how they're getting along. The only thing better than going camping with people I love is going home and getting away from them.
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:14 AM on February 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

In the "stand tall" video you can see their sense of betrayal that others haven't joined them.
posted by Miko at 11:20 AM on February 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

New video in which Davey addresses a youtube commenter/conspiracy theorist at length and taunts the feds about his new technical setup. Also, there's a clearer view of just where they're located on the refuge.
posted by mochapickle at 11:55 AM on February 8, 2016

Oh this poor naif. He really does think he's outsmarting them.
posted by Miko at 12:13 PM on February 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

They are located in the squalor section of the Mahleur National Wildlife Refuge. I did notice some full garbage cans in the walk through video yesterday. It must be getting near David's nesting season. Sean and Sandy are trying to come across as some nice middle class folks, just folks.
posted by Oyéah at 12:43 PM on February 8, 2016

Ammon Bundy aka The Tar Baby, is now approaching politicians for help. He is posing as victim.
posted by Oyéah at 1:17 PM on February 8, 2016

Ammon Bundy aka The Tar Baby, is now approaching politicians for help. He is posing as victim.

Whaaaaaaaat
posted by Going To Maine at 1:22 PM on February 8, 2016

Koch-backed lobbying group is spreading Ammon Bundy’s lies — misspellings and all
posted by T.D. Strange at 1:27 PM on February 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Never think for a moment that they aren't all on the same side and you won't be seeing attempts by the Kochs and their guys in the GOP to normalize this shit over time.
posted by Artw at 1:31 PM on February 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

So we now have ALC that's another well funded legislative council in addition to ALEC? Wonderful.
posted by MysticMCJ at 1:37 PM on February 8, 2016

Regarding their supplies, I think they're going to run out sooner than they thought. We've got a warm front moving through Oregon, and the high temps near the refuge are going to be in the 50's by the end of the week. They showed off coolers full of ground beef in earlier videos, unless they have a stash of ice somewhere those are going to get funky in a few days.
posted by TungstenChef at 2:13 PM on February 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Wouldn't the electric (and therefore refrigerators/freezers) still be working in the buildings? I'm assuming they didn't turn off utilities for fear of freezing the pipes & causing even more damage....
posted by mochapickle at 2:15 PM on February 8, 2016

I don't think the refuge would have more than an standard refrigerator. It's entirely possible that the coolers in the video were extra storage, there were any number of ranchers involved in the standoff and any one of them could've brought lots of ground beef. The remaining occupiers are losing their outdoor cooler though, so hygiene and food safety are suddenly important issues.
posted by TungstenChef at 2:27 PM on February 8, 2016

They didn't turn the electric off because the only ways to do it involved either shutting down the supply to 24 other families or going on site to shut it off at the meter.
posted by Talez at 2:28 PM on February 8, 2016

Hans Grüber is suprised.
posted by Going To Maine at 2:31 PM on February 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

From Willamette Week, a fun read;
Oh, Hey, I’ll Take That 33,000 Acres If Adrian Sewell Doesn’t Want It
An open letter asserting a claim to the grazing rights renounced by a Bundy sympathizer.

To Whom it May Concern at the Department of the Interior and Bureau of Land Management,

My name is Martin Cizmar and I am writing to assert my claim to the grazing rights to 33,000 acres of New Mexico land, which were recently renounced by a Mr. Adrian Sewell of Silver City, New Mexico. Assuming I am first in time, I would like to immediately file whatever paperwork is required, and pay the $1.69 necessary to put my first cow-calf pair on this acreage.

A fairly indepth Newsweek article;
Right-Wing Extremists Are a Bigger Threat to America Than ISIS
And although they are frequently dismissed as people with crazy beliefs, right-wing extremists often seem like the guy next door. While experts say many of these individuals are paranoid and narcissistic, with strong anti-democratic tendencies, “the most common trait among terrorists is normalcy,” says Perliger of West Point.

What drives them, according to studies, is not so much ideology as their social network. When friends and associates all proclaim that the government is destroying freedom, or that all Muslims are terrorists, or that minorities are dragging down the country, the social pressure to conform with that opinion is intense.
...
Statistics show that the violence of right-wing extremists goes up when Republicans control at least one house of Congress. The reason, according to an analytical report conducted for West Point, might be “relative deprivation, which occurs when the high expectations of far-right activists during a conservative Legislature are not fulfilled.” In other words, these radicals expect to be ignored when Democrats are in charge, but when Republicans in power fail to champion the extremist cause, attacking the government strikes them as the only remaining option.

A High Country News piece tracking how the news broke through Twitter and Facebook.
Malheur arrests, as they happened on social media

Also, a good look back at;
Sugar Pine Mine, the other standoff
How a small-time mining dispute in Oregon readied a network of militias for the Malheur occupation.

Broke Back Toy Box at the Oregon Stand Off Some dildo news. One thing of note is that the dildos with writing on the packaging in the video were signed by Brandon Curtiss (PPN), Ken "orange hat man" Rhoades, Pete Santilli and a couple other people. They were going to try to sell them to raise money but while they tried to act nonchalant toward the sex toys, their revulsion was clear and the signing ceremony video was deleted a couple days later. (The video maker, Mike "Bluehair" Smith, was the guy in the bear hat at the refuge (he had a motel room in town), he arrived toward the end and was the one who filmed Santilli's arrest).

***Breaking new alert***
Four new occupiers spotted at the refuge.
posted by phoque at 2:46 PM on February 8, 2016 [16 favorites]

Oh man, I can't believe I didn't think to order them one of those 10 lbs bags of sugar-free gummi bears, of Amazon review fame. How did I not remember that until now?
posted by ryanrs at 3:00 PM on February 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

***Breaking new alert***
Four new occupiers spotted at the refuge.

That link is the BEST.
posted by mochapickle at 3:01 PM on February 8, 2016

Assuming it was taken yesterday, you could even say it's SUPERB.
posted by zombieflanders at 3:06 PM on February 8, 2016 [9 favorites]

Speculation on twitter yesterday that supporters may have sent pre-paid SIM cards before the arrests and siege, maybe they went rummaging yesterday and found more that were not blocked yet.

I don't think this makes a lot of sense; the FBI and network operators should be able to block service to a given phone using its IMEI (an electronic identifier specific to the actual cell phone), not just to a particular SIM.

Of course, it's possible that people sent entire prepaid phones, in which case...
posted by Juffo-Wup at 3:51 PM on February 8, 2016

Given that there's no cavalry militia coming, if I were the FBI I'd let Fry keep his net access for the time being to keep him placated and to give him more and more rope to hang himself with by making more and more videos.
posted by Bugbread at 3:59 PM on February 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Cliven Bundy en route to Burns. Fiore is joining him.
posted by mochapickle at 4:53 PM on February 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Local law enforcement in every major city (like Portland ) and certainly the FBI has a cell intercept machine - I forgot what they call the things (Stinger?? or something like that) which acts in lieu of (spoofs) any nearby cellphone tower and any data or calls that you send or receive in the area go to that machine first. The machine is the size of a small briefcase. Calls and data can be listened to, rerouted or you can shut them off entirely if you wish. Normally you need a warrant (in theory anyway - they get abused like mad) but in matters regarding Homeland Security and the (un)Patriot act, the warrants are secret and apparently easy to obtain - and there is no doubt what is going on in Malheur falls somewhere under (un)Patriot act legislation.

The point of all that is that regardless of how many cell phones Fry has access to the ONLY reason he is able to send and receive calls and data is because the FBI is allowing him to. For what reason one can only speculate - I can think of a few good ones myself like tracking anyone who calls him and keeping tabs on what's being said and who is saying it for future investigations. Everyone who calls Fry and everyone Fry calls,texts or emails is going on a list and will undoubtedly be investigated.

Fry's ability to post and call is not of his doing so much as state and Federal LE.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 4:54 PM on February 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Cliven Bundy en route to Burns. Fiore is joining him.

Well there's a fucker needs arresting.
posted by Artw at 4:54 PM on February 8, 2016 [13 favorites]

I have been positively giddy imagining the jumpsuits.
posted by mochapickle at 4:56 PM on February 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

The cell phone spoofing doodad is called Stingray.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:56 PM on February 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

At some point Fiore has to be guilty of something that gets her removed from office, right?
posted by zombieflanders at 4:57 PM on February 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Will Kim Davis come and support her fellow resisters against federal tyranny?
posted by dhens at 4:59 PM on February 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

At some point Fiore has to be guilty of something that gets her removed from office, right?

For crimes against photoshop, if nothing else.
posted by mochapickle at 5:02 PM on February 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Bundy attended the funeral of Robert “LaVoy” Finicum on Friday in Kanab, Utah, sitting on horseback behind the Finicum family as they spoke during a press conference.

Oh, for God's sake.
posted by running order squabble fest at 5:03 PM on February 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

a cell intercept machine - I forgot what they call the things (Stinger?? or something like that)

They're commonly called Stingrays, after a prominent brand, but there's a variety of brands that have the same/similar functionality (this matters with FOIA requests, etc.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:12 PM on February 8, 2016

“There is a Nevadan [Ryan Bundy] sitting in jail, and as an office holder, I will be there to demand his release,” Fiore said. “If that Nevadan can’t leave Oregon, we will bring Nevada to him. Peaceful, of course.”

Interesting how all this "Peaceful, of course" rhetoric has spouted up once Finicum was shot.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:15 PM on February 8, 2016

Couldn't be bothered to dismount? For a funeral? What a fucking poser. Special section of hell, etc.
posted by valkane at 5:18 PM on February 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

They all see themselves as John T. Chance, but in fact, they're Nathan Burdette. If only someone would explain this in language they could understand, well, then they'd know.
posted by valkane at 5:29 PM on February 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Cliven is revered in ways I never imagined by the anti-fed fanatics and he seems ready to take over where his boys left off.
This was the article with embedded video interview he did at the funeral.
posted by phoque at 5:32 PM on February 8, 2016

What if this entire thing is just a massive viral stunt for the next season of Portlandia? I mean if you close your eyes and listen David Fry does sound a bit like Fred Armisen. What if we convinced the world that this was the case?
posted by humanfont at 5:36 PM on February 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Cliven can share the one hour of freedom he and his sons get, from solitary, once they charge him for conspiracy in Oregon, smooth.
posted by Oyéah at 5:48 PM on February 8, 2016

The motto is "Keep Portland Weird" , not "Keep Portland Insane"
posted by AGameOfMoans at 5:50 PM on February 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Did they steal that from Austin?
posted by valkane at 6:15 PM on February 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

AGameOfMoans: "The point of all that is that regardless of how many cell phones Fry has access to the ONLY reason he is able to send and receive calls and data is because the FBI is allowing him to."

Lesson for furture occupiers: invest in a ham phone patch or two.
posted by Mitheral at 6:18 PM on February 8, 2016

Yeah, we stole it from Austin, valkane.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 6:22 PM on February 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

My understanding (and I could be wrong) when Fry called Gavin Seim he indicated they had found new phones and from other videos sounds like they had been left in the fire watch tower.

Facebook video account by Jaime H Spears (she was in Burns) of her communicating / helping Blaine Cooper negotiate with FBI to leave the refuge. He was promised he wouldn't be charged. And his one saving grace may be he never was seen with a weapon at the refuge, but he was calling for people to come and join an armed take over so he is right to be nervous. Also Joe O'Shaugnessy commented on the video. "Happy to see you're out of your financial slump and out spreading the patriot gospel... Talk to ya soon III%"

Latest Ammon production notes,
-A Call to Action to elected officials with imprisoned constituents (picture of Ammon)
-Free Speech : Difficult in jail (picture of hands in cuffs double fist punching keyboard)
-A Weapon of Discourse ... A Handshake (picture with a pointing arrow labeled Harney County SHERIFF)
-"Civil Disobedience" Definition: How to get political speech heard in a crowded room

But Judge Anna von Reitz is now sending Bundy's lawyers advice. PDF.
Ammon and his co-defendants are not subject to the jurisdiction of the sea nor to any "Special Admiralty" court venue. They are non-Domestic, non-resident aliens with respect to you and your entire Court System and you have been duly advised. We require actual justice, not just an appearance thereof.
posted by phoque at 6:28 PM on February 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

They did have a John ham radio on their list of supplies, I thought it was an actual ham they wanted at first. Also I think the fire tower has some sort of relay device / antenna on it.
posted by phoque at 6:32 PM on February 8, 2016

No outstanding charges on Bundy Sr? From that whole rigamarole?
posted by Trochanter at 6:33 PM on February 8, 2016

That letter is amazing. I was half expecting her to challenge the lawyers to a freestyle rap battle in order to take their power, Highlander-style.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:40 PM on February 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

But Judge Anna von Reitz is now sending Bundy's lawyers advice. PDF.

"Ammon Bundy has never knowingly or willingly operated as a 'person' in his life."

< facepalm >
posted by zakur at 6:42 PM on February 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

Considering that Ammon is actually in custody of people who are unlikely to be swayed by his arguments I suspect the collision between his alternate reality and real reality to be comparable to the collision between Theion and proto-Earth.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:47 PM on February 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Thanks, long name bear.
posted by valkane at 7:11 PM on February 8, 2016

But Judge Anna von Reitz is now sending Bundy's lawyers advice

From calvinball bizarro world, holy smokes.
posted by EatTheWeek at 7:13 PM on February 8, 2016

"See this letter and over 100 others on Anna's website"
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:14 PM on February 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Judge Anna likes Kelly Clarkson?
posted by valkane at 7:18 PM on February 8, 2016

David Fry now calling for violence.
posted by humanfont at 7:25 PM on February 8, 2016

That letter! Super kooky!

David Fry now calling for violence.

That looks like yesterday's video.
posted by Miko at 7:26 PM on February 8, 2016

But Judge Anna von Reitz is now sending Bundy's lawyers advice

what did i just read?

did i have a stroke?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:28 PM on February 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Fry seems to be mistaking commenters on YouTube as "Libbrells."
posted by bstreep at 7:50 PM on February 8, 2016

He has never operated a merchant marine vessel in any capacity whatsoever. He never
knowingly volunteered to be a franchisee or sought any benefit of incorporation.

This feels like a very, very early draft of the lyrics to Time Will Crawl.
posted by running order squabble fest at 7:51 PM on February 8, 2016

He has never operated a merchant marine vessel in any capacity whatsoever.

I imagine this will be inscribed on Finicum's tombstone.

Probably if you don't do that, and put a gold fringe on the tombstone, you are automatically conscripted into the Skeleton Army and forced to battle the Agenda 21 shock troopers in a battle to the undeath.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:59 PM on February 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

Fry seems to be mistaking commenters on YouTube as "Libbrells."

Reality has a well known liberal bias.
posted by Talez at 8:03 PM on February 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

did i have a stroke?

...
For example, THE SUPERIOR DISTRICT COURT FOR THE STATE OF ALASKA is run by the ALASKA COURT SYSTEM, INC., which is a federal corporation doing business as the “THE SUPERIOR DISTRICT COURT” — a privately owned and operated for-profit corporate franchise which is under contract to act “FOR” the STATE OF ALASKA which is another private, mostly foreign-owned corporate franchise of the UNITED STATES, INC., which is owned and operated by the IMF, which is an agency of the UNITED NATIONS, INC
...

Sincerely,
a real judge, dammit, so stop asking me if I'm a real judge already!


Hope that helps.
posted by sebastienbailard at 8:09 PM on February 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

sebastienbailard: a real judge, dammit, so stop asking me if I'm a real judge already!

Oh, wow, the link sebastienbailard is fantastic. The letter itself is interesting, but there's hidden treasure in the echo chamber comment section:

"Anna is quite correct in her analysis of our current situation. An astute observer might question as to how the Federal govt. can enforce the Law of the Sea here on the land. That fete was accomplished by having the U.S. Coast Guard survey the entire continental united States in 1938 [coincides with some important Supreme Court decisions] and designating the top of Pikes Peak as the high water mark. Now they can fictitiously operate Maritime/Admiralty courts on the land although you will never find a judge who will admit to that."

And then someone adds on:

"Pikes Peak is recorded as: 14,114 feet. This means that the Maritime/Admiralty law would NOT apply to the land area above this altitude. This likely does not truly affect what has been presented, but makes a limited area of "America" not under jurisdiction of Maritime/Admiralty courts!"

And then the legal advice on what to say to a judge:

"Sir, on and for the record, do you have authority over a flesh and blood man standing on the firm dry soil of the land of the Creator? Yes or no, Sir, on and for the record?" After about 4 or 5 seconds of silence, which I'm sure you will get: "I take your silence as acquiescence to my presumption that you do not have such authority. This flesh and blood man will now depart". Then leave.

It's like legal fanfic!
posted by bluecore at 8:40 PM on February 8, 2016 [13 favorites]

So, what kind of Judge am I?

I am their worst nightmare.

Holy shit she's a judge dressed as a clown that is actually a giant insect wearing a human skin disguise
posted by Bugbread at 9:11 PM on February 8, 2016 [12 favorites]

"Pikes Peak is recorded as: 14,114 feet. This means that the Maritime/Admiralty law would NOT apply to the land area above this altitude. This likely does not truly affect what has been presented, but makes a limited area of "America" not under jurisdiction of Maritime/Admiralty courts!"

Pikes Peak is recorded as 14,115 feet these days. So apparently, Admiralty law fails right around the shinbone when you're standing at the summit.
posted by mochapickle at 9:15 PM on February 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

bluecore: "An astute observer might question as to how the Federal govt. can enforce the Law of the Sea here on the land. That fete was accomplished by having the U.S. Coast Guard survey the entire continental united States in 1938 [coincides with some important Supreme Court decisions] and designating the top of Pikes Peak as the high water mark. Now they can fictitiously operate Maritime/Admiralty courts on the land although you will never find a judge who will admit to that."

I...I don't think that's how justification works. That's like crossing your fingers behind your back so that you can tell a lie, and then when you're called on the lie, refusing to admit that you had your fingers crossed. If you're going to deny crossing your fingers, then why bother crossing them in the first place?
posted by Bugbread at 9:16 PM on February 8, 2016

But if you committed the crime on top of Denali, is it somehow different? What if you wore a wetsuit? (A fringed wetsuit?)
posted by Oyéah at 9:28 PM on February 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Now they can fictitiously operate Maritime/Admiralty courts on the land although you will never find a judge who will admit to that.

And, if you turn around widdershins three times whilst wear red pants and doing Bob Fossey jazz hands, you can steal the judge's chi and become King of Continental America. The apparatchiks of AMERIKA INC will have no choice by to swear fealty to you and bequeath to you all their guinea fowl! Beware, this only works if you are standing less than 123 feet above sea level, and more than 87 inches above sea level, during a blood moon in a February (January having been corrupted by the secret black ops division of the Gregorians).
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:30 PM on February 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

"Sir, on and for the record, do you have authority over a flesh and blood man standing on the firm dry soil of the land of the Creator? Yes or no, Sir, on and for the record?" After about 4 or 5 seconds of silence, which I'm sure you will get: "I take your silence as acquiescence to my presumption that you do not have such authority. This flesh and blood man will now depart".

Honestly, I can only hear this in the voice of Grandpa Simpson.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:31 PM on February 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'd really like to hear that "authority over a flesh and blood man standing on the firm dry soil of the land of the Creator" thing used in court. I don't know which outcome would be the most entertaining, 1) seeing the judge immediately say "Yes" and the the defendant stunned and adrift, their ace-in-the-hole proving totally ineffective, 2) 4 or 5 seconds of laughter, and then the defendant trying to pull the "I take your silence..." line in the face of loud laughter, or 3) the judge just being so stunned that he/she doesn't say anything for a few seconds, and then the defendant using the "I take your silence..." line believing that it had worked.

Also, when I imagine this little vignette, I just keep imagining the judge saying "Yes?" with that upturned question-mark like intonation used when someone asks you a question that's so obvious you almost feel trepidation answering. Like if someone says "Don't eat that apple! What do you think, they grow on trees?" and you answer "Uh...yes?"
posted by Bugbread at 10:05 PM on February 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Honestly, I can only hear this in the voice of Grandpa Simpson.

I hear them all as Dale Gribble, obviously.
posted by bongo_x at 10:38 PM on February 8, 2016 [10 favorites]

I feel like a lot of you might enjoy /r/SovereignCitizen on Reddit.
posted by ryanrs at 11:15 PM on February 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

One thing that keeps nagging me about the whole SovCit thing is, who made this?

We all know where, for example, Scientology came from and who profits from it and how its creator effectively seduced himself. Who is the L. Ron Hubbard of Sovereign Citizenship though? Who thought up this maritime court fringed-flag alternate reality that is actually pretty brilliantly structured to seduce self-made true believers?

It's obviously being promoted and extended by actors like "Judge" Anna, and as with CoS it's kind of hard to tell whether she's in on the long con shucking the rubes or one of the true believers herself, but I don't believe anyone like her is the original author. The whole thing is too consistent and well structured to be anything other than the product of an original author who carefully thought it all through. It's crafted to not only to create early personal victories as the local traffic court or animal control office folds under the weight of all the papers filed, but provides a sequence of extended reveals drawing the newcomer deeper into the belief system.

So where the hell did it come from and where is their volcano lair?
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:46 AM on February 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

There's no easy answer to that, Bringer Tom. This is partly because the mythology has varied so much from group to group, and partly because it's been handed down through to many sources. At least some of it is traceable clear back to the origins of the KKK, and some of it was handed down through Posse Comitataus, and some of it's co-opted from Christian Identity stuff that had anti-Semetic Jewish Banking conspiracy origins.

It's basically a little conspiracy-theory blend, at this point.
posted by Archelaus at 6:27 AM on February 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

One thing that keeps nagging me about the whole SovCit thing is, who made this?

It's political creepypasta. No one person made it, tho the roots of sovereign citizenry are to be found in the Posse Comitatus movement of which Henry Lamont Beach and William Potter Gale are generally considered to be the founders. Closely related to (and frequently intertwined with) sovereign citizenry is the "redemption movement." The notion of being "owned" by the government until you declare yourself a "free man on the land" comes from here. Roger Elvick, Glenn Unger and Barton Buhtz are/were key theorizers of this idea. More recently John Darash AKA John Vidurek and Rodger Dowdell have theorized hallucinated the "Common Law Grand Jury." Stir into all this, to varying degrees, militias, Christian Identity, white supremacy, black supremacy, antisemitism, New Age conspiracies, and plain old grift, and you start to get some sense of the parameters of this "movement." Not every individual who supports the Bundys or Anna Von Kuchen de la Strudel will endorse all of this, but I'll bet most of them would endorse much of it.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:59 AM on February 9, 2016 [13 favorites]

On preview: jinx!
posted by octobersurprise at 7:00 AM on February 9, 2016

That's some good info, thanks guys! Off to read some links...
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:02 AM on February 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Keep in mind, also, that, like a cross between an MLM scam and a game of Telephone, the "theorizers" and bloggers of this nonsense have an interest, either emotional or financial or both, in further developing whatever ideas they've received. I don't know how many sovcit-ey bloggers or vloggers or blogtalkers there are who expound these ideas to an audience of dozens or hundreds while begging for contributions, but there are a lot. It's fascinating, almost viral: you, too, can monetize your most paranoid fears and dreams while infecting others.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:32 AM on February 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

And their attraction to US currency is pretty weird, given their belief that the government is a non-legitimate construct. It's a fiat currency -by- that government, so if they were following their beliefs logically, they'd believe it was valueless.
posted by Archelaus at 7:40 AM on February 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Aren't they all goldbugs?
posted by Artw at 7:42 AM on February 9, 2016

I feel like a lot of you might enjoy /r/SovereignCitizen on Reddit.

Well, that was not what I was expecting.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:04 AM on February 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's old, but this made my day.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:17 AM on February 9, 2016 [15 favorites]

That's hilarious, robocop.

"I see you have raised your wand, but my SovCit incantations will protect me from your Lightning Bolt spell, P. Barnes, so step asi- MOTHERFUCKER THAT HURTS"
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:41 AM on February 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Watch the montage that follows. It swings between hilarious (Lt. ripping open the window) and sad (family does not consent, child crying in the back seat).
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:45 AM on February 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

The thing that really makes me scratch my head about the SovCits (and has for years. My wife once had to deal with some Republic of Texas Sov Cit types in a legal capacity) is how they see this playing out in a larger arena.
If they were ever able to convince a majority of the people in a country that this is the correct way to run a country, how the hell do you actually RUN the country?
If everyone can declare themselves a "Judge" or "impanel" a "grand jury" any time they feel slighted, you don't have a society, you have a battlefield.
I know that the response to this is that they don't want a society, they want power.
But still, what's the endgame?
posted by Seamus at 8:49 AM on February 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's old, but this made my day .

I totally lost it at the part about not letting the camera in

Sov Cit. "You are not God, you have no jurisdiction over me'

Security guy, deadpan "God's not worried about cameras. I am."
posted by Jalliah at 9:06 AM on February 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

If Weird Al's song, "Dare to be Stupid" was a real Devo song, it would be the best Devo song. It sticks with me like "Idiocracy" sticks with me.
posted by Trochanter at 9:09 AM on February 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

It occurs to me that most of these characters taking part in both the Malheur occupation and the SovCits would be considered to have a personality disorder if one was dealing with them in our own day to day lives. There's that weird bubble of solitude and belief in the absolute truth being what ever I am feeling/believing RIGHT NOW! The recent video of Cliven Bundy has him discussing his history of governmental relations, of course differing from what it was last year and differing from what would be generally acknowledged as reality. But he is not lying, he's reporting his truth. All these characters are the same way, although I think in Sean Anderson's case he maybe just doesn't quite remember his booze fueled rants about taking down the government while holding guns. Maybe he should be forced to do commentary tracks to his youtube videos of yore. "What was your thought process at this point, Sean?"

I'd also love to know how the Mormons dealt with the drinking and smoking (and swearing) of the hangers on? It must have rankled. Most of the Santilli and Yost and fake bodyguard types talk of sitting up all night drinking and talking (I think all of them thought they were teaching everyone else, they are all the stars of their own shows) but the Mormon delegation surely would not have taken part in that? Finicum and the Bundys believe that god has sent them to do this, right?

I had not been paying attention to any of the Posse Comitatas or SovCit or Bundy Ranch nonsense, but I think reading all this crap has become an all encompassing...hobby? I does hearten me to see they are mostly derided in newspaper comments that are linked to here. I wonder how many of them are there? They think they are protecting our borders (The Minutemen) they are judges and spend lots of time on facebook. I wonder how widespread they really are. I know Santilli was teaching classes only a few years ago in making up faked followers to get a web presence, maybe that is still the case?
posted by readery at 9:22 AM on February 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Anna Von Kuchen de la Strudel

*applause*

also perhaps my name if I ever do drag again

I know that the response to this is that they don't want a society, they want power.
But still, what's the endgame?

"Fuck you, got mine." SovCits are, I think, properly classed as the fringe of the glibertarians, or at least a logical extension.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:30 AM on February 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'd also love to know how the Mormons dealt with the drinking and smoking (and swearing) of the hangers on? It must have rankled.

I don't know about the folks involved in this standoff but in the excellent Under the Banner of Heaven the author details that there are lots of splinter groups of the FLDS and some of them have more lax policies when it comes to some of this stuff.
posted by mmascolino at 9:32 AM on February 9, 2016

The swearing showed up in one of the videos, as I recall -- someone said a naughty word, and someone else said not to curse because they had God there.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:40 AM on February 9, 2016

New Sean & Sandy.

It's Day 13. They look pretty haggard. Sandy begins by mentioning they are under false imprisonment, and eventually she runs out of words/steam and Sean takes over.

And maybe her calling it imprisonment is a good thing, logically, for them. It's not such a big hop between being imprisoned in a tent and steadily running out of supplies vs. imprisoned in an actual prison. I think they might be wearing down.
posted by mochapickle at 9:51 AM on February 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

But still, what's the endgame?

There isn't one, as such, because what we're calling "sovereign citizenry" or "the patriot movement" or whatever is more of a motley collection of stratagems, delusions, folk tales, scams, and fantasies, than anything approaching a political ideology. Your average sovcits are effective ankle-biters, paper terrorists, and hustlers, but are too paranoid, too disorganized, often too impoverished, and usually, frankly, too dumb, to succeed at any level beyond that.

So they'll never overthrow the US government or even occupy a State. But they can harass and bully and lone-wolf attacks by disaffected individuals or small groups under the influence of these ideas can terrorize. In the long run, the ideas, granted more mainstream acceptance will only confuse and frighten people, make them prey to scams, and erode their confidence in local, state, and federal government, etc. That's tough because the unique combination of appeals to greed, fear, and pride which these stories make often ensnare just those kinds of down-and-outs that need assistance the most.

Worse case scenarios, of course, lie in the use of these ideas by political demagogues. Trump notwithstanding, I don't think we're any where near that yet; but dangerous men have ridden to power on sillier ideas.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:57 AM on February 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

The martyrdom of Finicum continues apace...
posted by Thorzdad at 11:33 AM on February 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Note that the Sean and Sandy video explicitly compares their situation to "Ferguson," where "the court threw out warrants" for various violent protest actions, according to them. That along with Lavoy as a "Hands Up Don't Shoot" action figure show how much this temper tantrum of intransigence is about the perceived failures of white privilege to protect them compared to what they perceive as the protests of persons of color.
posted by spitbull at 12:52 PM on February 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

i am falling down a person well of sovereign citizens law talking in courts
posted by robocop is bleeding at 12:56 PM on February 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

"Pikes Peak is recorded as: 14,114 feet. This means that the Maritime/Admiralty law would NOT apply to the land area above this altitude. This likely does not truly affect what has been presented, but makes a limited area of "America" not under jurisdiction of Maritime/Admiralty courts!"

What the hell do this mob and their "law" do with the tides?
posted by firstdrop at 1:22 PM on February 9, 2016

So I've dipped into the Rabbit hole and watch quite a few videos of these folks in action.

If I was to only go by the videos I would have to conclude that this movement appears to come from people who really don't like being told not to speed, not to drive badly and not drive while taking substances that can make you drive like shit.

"I want just want to be an asshole in my car and not give a shit about the safety of anyone else on the road cause I'm FREE person and everyone else can just eat dirt. "

It's like a bunch of kids mad that Mom or Dad won't let them eat all the cake and ice-cream that they want.
posted by Jalliah at 1:32 PM on February 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Tides fall under moon laws.
posted by phoque at 1:45 PM on February 9, 2016 [14 favorites]

"The Prosecution presents Exhibit A: an inflatable kiddie pool full of seawater! You're in our jurisdiction now! Get his hands, bailiff ... or, should I say 'quartermaster?' BWAHAHAHA"
posted by contraption at 1:51 PM on February 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

What the hell do this mob and their "law" do with the tides?

I'm finding zero on this 1938 geological survey.

Pikes Peak hasn't been a high water mark for 90 million years or so.
posted by mochapickle at 2:02 PM on February 9, 2016

Thanks to the resources provided by cjelli and octobersurprise, an interesting picture of the movement seems to emerge. Although the mythos is extremely well crafted to draw in new supporters, it obviously wasn't deliberately designed the way Scientology was. Rather it seems to be the product of a sort of process of memetic evolution, with ideas sticking together and propagating in the combinations which render the whole most seductive. So you end up with some combinations which are so similar they seem like they must be the product of the same author even though they are different in details. But it looks like they are actually the products of convergent evolution.

I have to admit I find it wickedly hilarious that there isn't really a mad genius of the SovCit mythos. It's just a natural phenomenon like a hurricane made of information, sweeping up vulnerable people and tossing them to a doom they don't even understand. They are like rats rendered incapable of fear by toxoplasmosis challenging the cat of the Federal Government, with no capacity to understand that they are about to be eaten alive.
posted by Bringer Tom at 2:08 PM on February 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

While the PT Cruiser derail has come and gone, I want to point out the vehicle in the video is actually a Chevy HHR.
posted by peeedro at 2:15 PM on February 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

I wonder how many of them are there?

One of the links on reddit said some source or other estimated them at betweeen 350K and 500K, which seems really high.

this movement appears to come from people who really don't like being told not to speed

More than a whiff of high school, anti-authoritarian smartass.
posted by Miko at 2:21 PM on February 9, 2016

I see some of the evolution of the sovereigns to be similar to how the various New Age/"love and light" I also read about grew up. Someone will make a crazy claim ("The government creates fake corporations with our names at birth and their laws only govern those corporations." // "I am the human vessel of the Archangel Michael who is the Commander of the Federation Fleet circling Nibiru.") and then someone else will agree with that claim, but will add an additional detail ("The government puts 1 million dollars into escrow in the fake name corporation." // "I am the reincarnation of Gabriel, who served under your Commander Michael until he was slain by the Reptilians."). Now the first person is overjoyed because they have someone that agrees with them (and better yet affirms their superior place/wisdom) but in order to get that agreement, they have to agree to whatever weird detail the second person added.

And so it grows. There's no plan here because it's all consensus reality. If enough people agree with me that the million dollars is in gold, then it's in gold and not fiat currency like that other guy said. We all may agree that Michael is the Commander of the fleet around Nibiru, but I doubt we agree on who speaks exclusively for him, so we'll studiously NOT TALK ABOUT THAT because that will cause a split and a loss of status for those of us who have bought in the longest.

Thus you see the frustration of the Bundys with the continued occupiers. The hold-outs did not go along with everything the Bundys said, but they went along with enough and without the Bundys they have taken it and made their own thing. It's not about the Bundys anymore! Or the Hammonds! It's about Lavoy the Martyr! We revise the consensual worldview we agreed to when we entered the Refuge to make it about that.

It's a weird, super long form version of "Yes, and..." improv.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 2:24 PM on February 9, 2016 [19 favorites]

Shouldn't Clive be arriving at the wildlife refuge about now?
posted by hippybear at 2:28 PM on February 9, 2016

In robocop's most recent video the most charming detail is the turkey feather staff or whatever it is.
posted by Miko at 2:34 PM on February 9, 2016

My lizard overlords at the Oregonian, want you to know there was at least one person of color at the Mahleur, and he has been arrested on a warrant out of Kansas, for stealing a weapon. He was an armed guard at the refuge occupation, and Harney County is keeping him on ice for Kansas. He was not arrested for his role in the occupation.
posted by Oyéah at 2:35 PM on February 9, 2016

Oh wait. I guess he is claiming affiliation with an indigenous community and that's a cultural object of some sort. I will resist the urge to further mock it in case it's legitimately cultural material to someone. For a second it seemed like something one of the folks would just make up as a symbol of power.
posted by Miko at 2:36 PM on February 9, 2016

Well, if you listen carefully the defendant is indigenous to the northeast atlantic coast, not Hawaii. The case is about his right to move about freely. (It is so jerky and hard to play through, but is it like a speeding ticket defense?)
posted by Oyéah at 2:51 PM on February 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yes, based on the videos I've seen so far it seems like "moving freely" is a big deal (regardless of borders) and that speeding is a fine individual choice and that they make some sort of distinction between "driving" and "traveling."
posted by Miko at 2:53 PM on February 9, 2016

they make some sort of distinction between "driving" and "traveling."

That's about oxcarts and such.
posted by Trochanter at 3:14 PM on February 9, 2016

The swearing showed up in one of the videos, as I recall -- someone said a naughty word, and someone else said not to curse because they had God there.

Yet somehow "Dude, put the guns away, don't you know Jesus has been hanging out with us!" would be a complete non-starter.
posted by sebastienbailard at 3:21 PM on February 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

The reason you're mostly seeing these people confronting cops at traffic stops is because traffic stops are the only time you run into cops outside urban areas.
posted by ryanrs at 3:23 PM on February 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

It seems wrong to compare other people to yourself all the time, but... Yeah, these guys. Not looking so good.
posted by HITLERTRON 5000 at 3:24 PM on February 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

One of the interesting things about all these folks is how much trust they have in the binding power of law. Your garden-variety far-left-whacko and far-right-whacko will distrust the government, see conspiracies everywhere, and believe themselves on their own (by which I mean collectively: the far-right-whackos think that the only people that they can trust are other far-right-whackos, and similarly for far-left-whackos).

The sovereign citizen types, however, trust that the government, police, etc., will act in accordance with the law. Sure, the establishment may be up to all kinds of nefarious shenanigans behind the scenes, creating byzantine laws that let them achieve what they want, but the sovereign citizens believe that those in power will still uphold those laws, and will not flat-out ignore them. So you can explain about admiralty courts or gold fringes or call yourself an individual instead of a person, and those in power will have to concede your point because what those in power are doing is all legal, and as tricky and conspiratorial as they are, they all scrupulously obey the law.

Holy shit, basically that means they believe the government is truly Lawful Evil.
posted by Bugbread at 3:31 PM on February 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

I think Clarke's Law needs to be amended to the more general "Any sufficiently advanced system is indistinguishable from magic," because magic seems to be how this subset of folks read complicated legal language. There's power in those incomprehensible words, so if I repeat them in the right order, I will get the power!
posted by restless_nomad at 3:48 PM on February 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Wow, that's a great insight, Bugbread. I always hated Lawful Good types and never played one, but that's what the SovCits are.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 3:49 PM on February 9, 2016

"Ammon Bundy has never knowingly or willingly operated as a 'person' in his life."

Well, there's the problem right there.
posted by msalt at 3:52 PM on February 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Are there any active warrants out for Cliven Bundy?

Maybe the whole slow-rolling of the law's response was bait to lure him out of his armed compound?
posted by msalt at 3:53 PM on February 9, 2016

It's also weird that these people think that cops know the law (either moon law or real law).

As someone who has fought the man on numerous occasions and generally won, I never really tried to argue the law with cops. Sometimes I'd say various things to them, quoting statutes and such, but even then, that was for the video that would later become evidence. I never seriously tried to argue the law with a cop.

Because here's the thing: cops aren't lawyers. If they were, then they'd be working as lawyers, not cops. The legal knowledge of your average cop comes from a booklet that fits in their shirt pocket. And for the most part, they'd agree that lawyering isn't their job and they aren't particularly interested in doing it.
posted by ryanrs at 3:54 PM on February 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Koin news' guy outside the refuge is excited about some activity and tweeting. Probably nothing.
posted by humanfont at 4:17 PM on February 9, 2016

Also upon review of Fry's "driving" video. That isnt a PT Cruiser. It is a GM HHR. Last manufactured for the 2011 model year.
posted by humanfont at 4:50 PM on February 9, 2016

What's the consensus on the GM HHR viz a viz ZZ Top?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:55 PM on February 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Wouldn't be caught occupying a wildlife refuge in one, that's for certain.

(I am not a member of ZZ Top)
posted by Windopaene at 4:58 PM on February 9, 2016

My guess is that they are going to try to get onto the refuge via horses. At least one of the property owners abutting it is a big fan. I'd like to think the feds will do something about it, but they've been continuing the super-lax response. There's an argument to be made for it in terms of the holdouts, but they have also only charged the arrested ones with the lightest of offenses that will only get them a few months if convicted, when they had much bigger ones they could charge them with. It's clear that orders have come down from above to treat them very gently no matter how many crimes they commit. And this is being read, correctly imho, by the militants as the government being afraid of them, and it's only emboldening them.
posted by tavella at 5:01 PM on February 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

But still, what's the endgame?
"Fuck you, got mine."

From reading Trochanter's link at the top, some of them are selling their magic law manuals, providing seminars for money, or munificently helping others in a bind with the law. They're people with a powerful secret they want to share for your benefit.
posted by sneebler at 5:07 PM on February 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

What's the consensus on the GM HHR viz a viz ZZ Top?

Seems to be going for a midpoint between ZZ Top roadster and conventional blob.
posted by Artw at 5:08 PM on February 9, 2016

Re: why to sovcits believe this stuff.

Sometimes it works. Juries can be really dumb, and the chewbacca-like sovcit defense sometimes might just get a hung jury or even not guilty. All it takes is a few scattered wins out there (especially early on when this stuff is still pretty far out there) for people to believe that there's something to it.
posted by aspo at 5:26 PM on February 9, 2016

Worse case scenarios, of course, lie in the use of these ideas by political demagogues.

After my own trip down the rabbit hole of yootoob vids (glad to hear I'm not the only one who got sucked into the pit) and some of the other links posted in this and the previous thread, I think the thing that makes this "movement" especially dangerous - however much it's not (yet) particularly organized - is that it's the result of political demagoguery in many ways.

I mean, it seems pretty clear that many members of the SovCit movement are going through life with no small level of unfocused but deeply felt class and/or racial resentment (maybe "ressentiment" is a better term.) And unfocused, vague, yet deeply felt class and racial resentment is the stock in trade of Limbaugh and Beck and Alex Jones and RedState.com and etc etc etc; to greater or lesser degrees of subtlety, of pretty much every conservative media outlet and think tank. Add in a sense of personal aggrievement that they have to pay taxes (so The Other, however they define that, gets to live high on the hog on their hard-earned money) or for a driver's license or vehicle registration or fines for misdemeanors & minor felonies or grazing fees or whatever, and you can see how people (especially, frankly, broke people) would feel the appeal of going further down the road that the right-wing noise machine has already led them down, all the way to CloudCookoo SovCitLand.

IOW, for all this movement is nowhere near as widespread as the members think it is, I think it would be even more obscure and powerless if there wasn't an entire media machine laying the groundwork.

(And speaking of "nowhere near as widespread", there's gotta be a doctoral thesis or three in how the SovCit/Freeman/citizen militia/tax protestor movement(s) are an example of "epistemic closure" - these people spend so much time talking to each other and their fellow travelers that they've completely lost touch with what Joe and Jane Average American might think about their ideas. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that Ammon started the occupation genuinely believing that within the week there'd be 500 inside the refuge and another 10,000 in support outside. Because he almost certainly spent all of his time online & in meatspace with people who agreed with him. He mistook 20 people agreeing with him 200 times for 4000 people agreeing with him once.)
posted by soundguy99 at 5:28 PM on February 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

There's power in those incomprehensible words, so if I repeat them in the right order, I will get the power!

A cargo cult.
posted by Trochanter at 5:30 PM on February 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Metafilter: I do not wish to create joinder with you.
posted by mlis at 5:34 PM on February 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

they have also only charged the arrested ones with the lightest of offenses that will only get them a few months if convicted

Charged with the lightest of offenses so far. If the Feds and OSP were willing to play a waiting game in order to shut down the occupation, I'm betting they're playing a similar waiting game about charging them - once they can get inside the refuge and collect physical evidence they'll have a much better sense of how hard they can hammer 'em, and which charges are likely to stick (both in the initial trial and on appeal.)
posted by soundguy99 at 5:36 PM on February 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Several years ago, my brother, for some unfathomable reason, decided to simply stop paying his taxes. As one might imagine, this decision (and the government) eventually caught up with him, resulting in enormous fines, a divorce, his now-ex-wife filing bankruptcy, and my brother dropping off the face of the earth and working under-the-table cash-only labor to stay under the government radar.

At the time, I wondered why he did what he did? I had heard of wackos who believed the income tax was unconstitutional, and went all over the country lecturing on the magic words and forms that would free you from taxation. I often wondered if he hadn't gotten roped into this stuff and taken the plunge, sinking his family and his future.

In my mind, this is the true damage these SovCit wreak. Duping others into wrecking their lives.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:53 PM on February 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

i am falling down a person well of sovereign citizens law talking in courts

Wow, amazed that the judge read all his nonsense.

"Sovereign Citizens Getting Owned Compilation": "I don't feel safe with your glasses on." Man, some of the people in this video are beyond belief.
posted by marienbad at 6:01 PM on February 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Disappointingly, the ACLU seems to be supporting Pete Santilli.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:05 PM on February 9, 2016

Holy cats, marienbad. I'm on the second one right now and there are little kids screaming. Just awful for those kids.
posted by mochapickle at 6:06 PM on February 9, 2016

"I don't know what law book you're reading from but it doesn't apply to me."- This sums it up completely.
posted by marienbad at 6:08 PM on February 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

In my mind, this is the true damage these SovCit wreak. Duping others into wrecking their lives.

It's a con game. But like any con game, there has to be a little larceny in the mark. These folks think they've found a loophole.

I think it's true of the Bundys too. It comes down to them getting free shit.
posted by Trochanter at 6:09 PM on February 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Disappointingly, the ACLU seems to be supporting Pete Santilli.

Ugh.
posted by Artw at 6:11 PM on February 9, 2016

Ernie Wayne terTelgte is pretty good too. It's interesting to see the videos of him getting shut out of court posted by different users as a 'great victory' for sovereign rights.

I might try to take a swing at his 3+ hour video, but I don't have the weed required.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:16 PM on February 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Not a SovCit, but this is hilarious: Guy calls judge a cock in court... guess the outcome

How police deal with SovCits
posted by marienbad at 6:17 PM on February 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

So the state and feds.did not tell Grant County Sherriff Palmer about their plan to detain and arrest the Mahleur meltdown leaders. He heard afternthe fact and went to the upper roadblock. He didn't want anyone to think he is part of the "ambush," as Sherriff Palmer, called it. The Oregon Sherriffs Assoc is not happy with him. This idiocracy runs deep.
posted by Oyéah at 6:19 PM on February 9, 2016

Disappointingly, the ACLU seems to be supporting Pete Santilli.

I'd be disappointed if they weren't.

His only "crime" is that he was terribly sympathetic, which is a really problematic position to take versus the press.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:22 PM on February 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

I think freedom of speech and press is important, I am not sure where the line is with regard to fraternization with armed people, and calls for violence.

There was a shocker today out of Ryan Payne's involvement at the Cliven Bundy standoff. He stated he helped place citizen snipers so that every federal agent would have been assassinated if they had pushed things. Why Cliven is walking around Oregon a free man, after that explanation, is beyond me.
posted by Oyéah at 6:33 PM on February 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

His only "crime" is that he was terribly sympathetic, which is a really problematic position to take versus the press.

He occupied the refuge with the Bundyites. If he was truly simply reporting on the situation, that alone wouldn't have been problematic. But he also made requests for more people to come join them. That not 'sympathetic reporting', that's assisting.

If armed Muslim terrorists had occupied the refuge and threatened to murder anyone in their way, and Santilli had 'covered' that situation and encouraged people to come join them, this wouldn't even be a question.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:35 PM on February 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

i am falling down a person well of sovereign citizens law talking in courts

Robocop : I swear the guy in that video the same guy as in Better Call Saul.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:39 PM on February 9, 2016

Why Cliven is walking around Oregon a free man, after that explanation, is beyond me.

Maybe that is the explanation? Maybe the Feds' kid gloves approach at Malheur is part of sorting out how to deal with Cliven and his standoff?
posted by sneebler at 6:42 PM on February 9, 2016

It's a con game. But like any con game, there has to be a little larceny in the mark. These folks think they've found a loophole.

Why can't it be turtles all the way down? Sincere fools misguiding sincere fools misguiding ...
posted by sebastienbailard at 6:50 PM on February 9, 2016

He occupied the refuge with the Bundyites. If he was truly simply reporting on the situation, that alone wouldn't have been problematic. But he also made requests for more people to come join them. That not 'sympathetic reporting', that's assisting.

That said, the free speech/journalism argument may still stand up - I haven't reviewed all of Santilli's execrable 'reporting' from when he was at the refuge, but it seems that when he called for support he asked for people to come "um...unarmed, of course, of course".

But his obvious support for the Bundyites makes it very muddy. There are better cases for the ACLU to weigh in on.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:54 PM on February 9, 2016

He occupied the refuge with the Bundyites. If he was truly simply reporting on the situation, that alone wouldn't have been problematic. But he also made requests for more people to come join them. That not 'sympathetic reporting', that's assisting.

He wasn't calling for anything more than vanilla "Occupy" groups did. It's advocacy journalism, sure, but it seems weird that he's singled out.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:04 PM on February 9, 2016

He wasn't calling for anything more than vanilla "Occupy" groups did.

Occupy wasn't armed, or trying to effect the overthrow of the Federal government, or calling for the murder of cops.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:08 PM on February 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

Santilli crying "First Amendment" is rich. Remember, this is the guy who responded to environmentalist protesters at Malheur by putting a megaphone in their faces and shouting them down.
posted by zakur at 7:11 PM on February 9, 2016

Occupy wasn't armed

Neither was Santilli. And he called for his followers to follow his example.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:14 PM on February 9, 2016

The ACLU of Oregon has tweeted :
We are not representing Santilli or any of the any of the other people accused of #Oregonstandoff conspiracy.

I think the much larger statement was simply a statement of support for journalists rights - not necessarily a complete endorsement of Santillis actions overall.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:18 PM on February 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Occupy wasn't armed

Neither was Santilli. And he called for his followers to follow his example.

In support of people who were armed, and who were calling for violence. You cannot escape that point. And neither can he.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:21 PM on February 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

I don't think Santilli's charge will stick, but might as well charge all the principal players with conspiracy to... and let the court sort it out. They might know or believe something about his involvement in the planning of this escapade.
posted by ctmf at 7:22 PM on February 9, 2016

soundguy99: Charged with the lightest of offenses so far. If the Feds and OSP were willing to play a waiting game in order to shut down the occupation, I'm betting they're playing a similar waiting game about charging them

Maybe, but that's what a lot of people said after the feds ran away from the Bundy Ranch after the Bundyites stole the seized cattle and put snipers on people; that they'd just use financial tools and warrants and so on to clean it up without a confrontation. And instead they did absolutely nada, and the cancer grew.
posted by tavella at 7:25 PM on February 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

In support of people who were armed,

I've supported people who were armed. The US Government regularly supports people who are armed.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:41 PM on February 9, 2016

I'm still holding out hope for superseding indictments when the crime scene is accessible. There's so, so much more that could be charged, and all of it is on video. I still don't understand the kid gloves, other than it's an election year and #becausewhiteguys or #becauseRepublicans. Name any other group that could get away with 1/8 of the things Ammo&Fry and the 100 Fake Judges have done live on youtube. I'll wait.

But, burden of proof is on the government after Bundypalooza2014 resulted in no one getting charged at all, for anything, including literally pointing machine guns at federal agents. Until proven otherwise, the default assumption has to be #teamnocharges, currently winning in a landslide. My bet is if the conspiracy is the only charge, everyone walks. No one serves a day.

I eagerly await being proven wrong. But not by holding my breath.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:06 PM on February 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

There are a lot of criminals of many kinds in the US, and many are armed. Usually the weapons are used against other criminals in competition, and sadly used by police against US citizens, most frequently of color. Craptacular. Using weapons to have one's way, is the hallmark of domestic criminal activity. The Bundys are uncommon in their niche, but common criminals.

So, I don't like the idea that I might head for the sanctuary of wilderness, and find I am in a war zone because criminals have no respect for the rights of US citizens to use public land.
posted by Oyéah at 8:17 PM on February 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

From the Sovereign Citizens Getting Owned Compilation

Sovereign Citizen: Help. Help. Help. Call the police.
Police Officer: Sir, we are the police.

I think that sums it up pretty well.
posted by benito.strauss at 8:29 PM on February 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

T.D. Strange: I still don't understand the kid gloves,

The initial charges were to get them off the street and into custody. They haven't made more charges yet because:

1) They're interested in getting the final four out peacefully and without endangering agents, which would be harder if the final four knew the book was getting thrown at others and possibly them.

2) It's an active crime scene. They need to get in and see what damage was done to antiquities, vehicles, the buildings, etc. I'm not sure but I think if an agent dies extracting the final four, Ammon could also be charged for helping put into motion the conspiracy that lead to the agent's death (that's partially why Ammon is suddenly interested in the final four giving up.)

I'm pretty sure there will be more charges, but let's see this play out. I'd rather they take their time and make a rock solid case than throw things against a wall to see what sticks.

As much as we all wish the original Bundy ranch standoff had lead to some instant justice, it was a bloodbath waiting to happen. They had 200 plus people with guns, human shields to make it a Waco, and were in a region completely sympathetic to their cause. Apparently there was even talk by some of the more extreme members wanting to shoot Bundy themselves to make him a martyr and kick off the revolution they want.

By waiting, the Bundys voluntarily moved themselves into a horrible strategic position: it's not their state, it's an unsympathetic town, it's a wildlife refuge and not a BLM facility, they looked like fools on social media with the dildo stuff, and the Feds don't appear heavy-handed in the media (no photos like SWAT officers pulling Elian Gonzalez from a closet .) If the Bundy boys end up doing multiple years in prison and there ends up being only one life lost, I think there's a case to be made that long term patience was a good play here.
posted by bluecore at 8:45 PM on February 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

I've figured out who's behind the SovCit movement. It's the car window replacement monopoly. I've seen so many car windows smashed in in those YouTube SovCit videos, and every one of them means dollars in the pockets of Big Glass.
posted by benito.strauss at 8:51 PM on February 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

Maybe, bluecore, but the government's past record with these people does not lead to optimism. And either way, if any group that wasn't white and right wing had stolen government property and pointed guns at government officials with plans to kill them, they sure as hell wouldn't be left utterly alone with no financial or legal consequences until they committed many more crimes, and treated with great leniency even when they did.
posted by tavella at 8:56 PM on February 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Like I said, burden of proof on the government. I eagerly await additional charges, with little faith that they are forthcoming until proven otherwise.

How many times could Cliven Bundy or any of the supporters have been waylaid and arrested since the 2014 standoff and was not? My guess is more than a few.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:37 PM on February 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

This whole thing is hard to get the collective's head around. The religious overtones are loud, the movement being in heavily LDS populations. Then the combination of well fed folks, well off folks who you would think understand the reason for the rule of law; then disaffected poor white, (in most cases,) paramilitary, wanna be military, ex cops, then dopers, tweakers, wanna be wilderness entrepeneurs, (destroyers.) I haven't yet mentioned the lunatic fringe, then the numbers, perhaps as many as 500,000 of the various sorts that sorta make up the overall movement, which is all kinds of mindsets. Whether it is Santilli, Fry, Ammon or Cliven Bundy, rogue sherriffs, or religious sorts who want to see the whole thing go up, it is complicated, and bears watching. Imagine the world's largest whack-a-mole game, and I can see waiting it out, somewhat, and allowing the most outrageous actors fret and strut, and make fools of themselves, and clearly demonstrate the rule of law is important.

A lot of potential actors have come out into view, and various groups have had a chance to see what they really believe, and what they really will do. Maybe they have learned their posturing isn't as healthy as they imagined, or helpful, or of good potential. The truth is it will be a bad day when we need heavily armed militias, running society with death threats. And then again we have an overfunded, overused military. Part of this whole mess is unresolved PTSD, and people who can't give up the stimulation that conflict offers. People try to force wargasm, taking the circumspective route seems weak to some, but peace exists while the inevitable is postponed.
posted by Oyéah at 10:22 PM on February 9, 2016

Oyéah: "Part of this whole mess is unresolved PTSD, and people who can't give up the stimulation that conflict offers. People try to force wargasm, taking the circumspective route seems weak to some, but peace exists while the inevitable is postponed."

Based on the Gonza Reporting guys, and what I've seen so far, it doesn't seem like there are all that many ex-military folks. There are lots of really pro-military folks, but they don't generally seem to be people who have actually been in the military.
posted by Bugbread at 10:32 PM on February 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Archelaus: "It's basically a little conspiracy-theory blend, at this point."

A weird side note is we have Sovereign Citizens in Canada too; however, their basis for Sovereignty is of course completely different. EG: I had a biker try to convince me that the RCMP couldn't step foot on his acreage to arrest him because the original deed for the property had been issued by the British Crown before BC was a province (true) and therefor the RCMP had no jurisdiction (obviously looney).

ryanrs: "cops aren't lawyers. If they were, then they'd be working as lawyers, not cops. The legal knowledge of your average cop comes from a booklet that fits in their shirt pocket."

Boy howdy is this true. I've had more than a few run ins with traffic cops who didn't actually know the law on auxiliary lighting. And the Highway Ministry actually issued a memo to law enforcement regarding the legality of doorless driving of pre-86 Jeeps (IE: totally legal) that may people carry in their Jeeps to try to avoid nuisance ticketing for a non-offence.
posted by Mitheral at 11:01 PM on February 9, 2016

From the Sovereign Citizens Getting Owned Compilation

Sovereign Citizen: Help. Help. Help. Call the police.
Police Officer: Sir, we are the police.

I think that sums it up pretty well.

That video was a mix of funny scenes like that, a few scenes of unpleasant police overreach, and some scenes that had the feel of mental illness. As an overview to the movement, it certainly could be worse.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:27 AM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

I am about 50 minutes in to that 3+ hour Ernie Wayne terTelgte lecture I linked above. I need to watch in 15-20 minute increments to keep from losing SAN. Even then, it's getting to me. He sounds like Patrick the Starfish from Spongebob and dresses like the loneliest shopkeep in Colonial Williamsburg. His ideas on how the English language is upside down and backwards intrigue me and his tulpa, the Gobble Monster that lurks within the plastic coffin that some people call a Driver's License , excites me.

I sort of want to make a FanFare post about it. It's headwound Dan Brown level nuts.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:39 AM on February 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Metafilter: headwound Dan Brown level nuts.

(what a great great phrase!)
posted by OmieWise at 9:36 AM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Last night I watched some of the sovcits getting owned videos above and, as much as I hate the sovcits, I hate police use of tasers as punishment much, much worse. In like 5 minutes I saw 3 people get tased when it was clearly not needed. Someone is trying to get a camera past two giant bailiffs? Fine, arrest them, but you don't need to torture them too. Someone is trying to sovcit past a speeding ticket? Fine, arrest them, but once again you don't need to torture them as well.

Tasers as compliance tools are scary scary shit. Imagine in each of those cases if the police had said "if you do x, I'm going to get out a nightstick and beat you?" or even "I'm going to shoot you". People die from tasers, they are supposed to be used as a nonleathal alternative to guns, not as a way to make people do your bidding.
posted by aspo at 9:44 AM on February 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

Plus that dude sounded dead like Robert Downey, Jr., so it was like hearing SovCit Tony Stark get tased.
posted by valkane at 9:48 AM on February 10, 2016

I don't think "headwound Dan Brown level nuts" captures the breadth and depth of that video.
I want the camera to turn around and show us the people making the shuffling noises. I fully expect to see nictating membranes over third eyes.
posted by Seamus at 9:59 AM on February 10, 2016

I had no idea that "unalienable" meant that you couldn't place a lien on it. The more you know!
posted by OverlappingElvis at 10:06 AM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I had no idea that “unalienable” meant that you couldn't place a lien on it. The more you know!

That would be “unlienable”. “unalienable” would surely be that you couldn’t not place a lien on it.

All the single sovereigns, all the single sovereigns…
posted by Going To Maine at 10:11 AM on February 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

headwound Dan Brown level nuts.

I keep reading “wound” as the past tense of “wind”. Still parses.
posted by Going To Maine at 10:12 AM on February 10, 2016

"But at the end, that host that appears as a Rockefeller, you name it..."

That sinking feeling you get when you realize they're talking about you.
posted by OverlappingElvis at 10:21 AM on February 10, 2016

aspo, as I recall at least in one of the cases where a sovvie got tased, the judge did get in trouble for it. One can certainly understand the impulse, but I agree, just handcuff them and drag them off to jail in most cases.
posted by tavella at 11:20 AM on February 10, 2016

DID YOU KNOW THAT SPELLING IS LITTTTERALLLLLYYYY CASTING A SPELL ON SOMEONE
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:42 AM on February 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Unalienable rights, a shape shifting alien reptile overlord cannot be placed on it. Because if that happened, you might rock a feller, sov cits find Rock King heinous, only English Kings for sov cits.

So Cliven was headed up to Portland, I never read anything else to indicate he arrived?
posted by Oyéah at 12:37 PM on February 10, 2016

Still trying either to get his horse into the passenger seat of his Jeep, or his Jeep onto the back of his horse.
posted by running order squabble fest at 1:38 PM on February 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

Les Zaitz say the Grant County sheriff is threatening legal action against him via the Grant County DA for asking questions and writing this article.
posted by humanfont at 1:42 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I am two hours in and he's talking about how if you hire a lawyer you are actually a minotaur who is hiring a slayer to mass murder you in the maze of court.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 1:46 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Disappointingly, the ACLU seems to be supporting Pete Santilli.

I think it's hilarious. Pete Santilli: defended by card-carrying members of the ACLU.

Occupy wasn't armed. Neither was Santilli.

Wasn't armed when? Because doesn't it beggar the imagination to believe that a man so devoted to his right to be armed that he has routinely, publicly, threatened to shoot anyone who tries to disarm him would actually go around unarmed? Pete Santilli may be a lot of things but he's not the kind to take a knife to a gunfight. Anyway, I believe Pete when he says he wants to shoot people and considering that he remains detained, apparently the judge does, too.
posted by octobersurprise at 1:52 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

This guy is NOT over what happened to the Etruscans.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 1:56 PM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Les Zaitz say the Grant County sheriff is threatening legal action against him via the Grant County DA for asking questions and writing this article.

Wasn't he already warned that probing a citizen's grand jury is a felony? /s
posted by Talez at 2:12 PM on February 10, 2016

That's a paddlin'.
posted by Seamus at 2:22 PM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

boo the tricorn hat guy is replaced by some dude in overalls after like 2 hours
posted by robocop is bleeding at 2:38 PM on February 10, 2016

robocop is bleeding, I can't thank you enough for the sacrifice you are making.
posted by Floydd at 3:24 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Robocop, I am watching this Ernie vid now. I'd assumed you were exaggerating. I owe you an apology.
posted by mochapickle at 3:26 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

This feels like something that should only be endured if it's part of a charity drive where you keep on watching as long as people keep on donating.

(presumably, donations would go to providing gold-fringed flags to schools and the like.)
posted by tocts at 3:30 PM on February 10, 2016

I feel I earned extra points by listening to the crowd chatter during the break. There's fresh rabbit available, too.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 3:33 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

The camera turns around at ~2 hours, 40 minutes in. It's great to put a face to a wheezing cough.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 3:35 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Ernie's back! Admiralty Maritime law is also astrology, which is bad obvs.

There's a Teacher's Pet in the audience who is piping up more and more with comments akin to "My cat's breath smells like catfood." or "Visit creditorsincommerce.com to learn more!'
posted by robocop is bleeding at 3:46 PM on February 10, 2016

Money shot of hand drawn chart madness at the 3rd hour mark. It even has a boat!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 3:58 PM on February 10, 2016

Allegedly Live Phone call from refuge. Supposedly raid is in progress.
posted by humanfont at 5:32 PM on February 10, 2016

Endgame. FBI are raiding the refuge.
posted by Talez at 5:32 PM on February 10, 2016

Oh jesus. No deaths.
posted by Trochanter at 5:34 PM on February 10, 2016

Sean yelling at the FBI that they're leaving tomorrow.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:37 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

JJ MacNab ‏@jjmacnab 6m6 minutes ago

Sandy begged someone not to threaten the feds.

Oh god. Gunfire.
posted by Trochanter at 5:39 PM on February 10, 2016

Karin Hildebrand ‏@Karimala1 2m2 minutes ago

Fry telling FBI they are all going to hell. "Go and kill me! Kill me!"
posted by Trochanter at 5:41 PM on February 10, 2016

Wasn't gunfire. Fry started the truck. No shots yet.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:41 PM on February 10, 2016

audio
posted by Trochanter at 5:42 PM on February 10, 2016

Fry telling FBI they are all going to hell. "Go and kill me! Kill me!"

These guys love their Darwin awards.
posted by Artw at 5:43 PM on February 10, 2016

Sean: "Only way we're leaving here is dead or without charges!"
posted by zakur at 5:43 PM on February 10, 2016

JJ MacNab ‏@jjmacnab 2m2 minutes ago

FBI: "Sean, I can't hear you. Put your weapon down and come forward. I want to hear what you have to say."
posted by Trochanter at 5:48 PM on February 10, 2016

The "host" or whoever this is giving out the FBI's phone number while the audio has gone silent. Tells listeners to call and demand FBI stand down
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:51 PM on February 10, 2016

Fry ranting now, he really doesn't like Hilary. Which is clearly because of her views on land rights.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:54 PM on February 10, 2016

Fry: "You killed LaVoy! You let Hillary continue to run for president! You let Obama let terrorists into this country! You let the Federal Reserve kill us through taxes and interest rates!"

Sean saying a prayer. "We haven't done anything wrong! Please send help! Amen!"
posted by zakur at 5:56 PM on February 10, 2016

Idiots daring to be stupid.
posted by Trochanter at 5:58 PM on February 10, 2016

This is just sad now.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 5:59 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Uh, dude, you're praying to a guy who didn't do anything wrong and got crucified for it. The least you could do is take a little jail time.
posted by Bugbread at 5:59 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

That's hard to listen to.
posted by valkane at 6:01 PM on February 10, 2016

Sandy talking about her dogs is sad.

I do wonder if the timing on this because Cliven Bundy and Michele Fiore were planning to come up tomorrow.
posted by dhens at 6:02 PM on February 10, 2016

"The whole world is watching! Franklin Graham would agree with me!"
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 6:02 PM on February 10, 2016

This host should be charged as an accessory if these people get killed, I swear to god.
posted by RedEmma at 6:03 PM on February 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

"Innocent American campers"

Holy shit.
posted by Talez at 6:03 PM on February 10, 2016

Did he just call himself a "wholly innocent American camper?"
posted by NoMich at 6:04 PM on February 10, 2016

OregonLive story breaking...
posted by valkane at 6:05 PM on February 10, 2016

Bugbread, I don't think these guys are real conversant with the details of what Christianity teaches. Or even the broad strokes.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:06 PM on February 10, 2016

This host should be charged as an accessory if these people get killed, I swear to god.

He just asked the "occupiers" to read the "Declaration of the Constitution" to the feds.
posted by dhens at 6:06 PM on February 10, 2016

They keep saying Fiore is on her way tomorrow, like that would help the situation. If that's the case, it may have prompted this. She should be charged too, she's made herself part of the conspiracy.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:07 PM on February 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

There ought to be some sort of sedition charge for this Fiore.
posted by Trochanter at 6:07 PM on February 10, 2016

I think the feds are scared spitless of this movement.
posted by Trochanter at 6:08 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

"It's not peaceful if you come with armored vehicles!"

Wait, I thought they claimed they were peaceful protestors who just happened to have guns?
posted by bluecore at 6:09 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

They can't see us with the night vision, with our lights on. That's why they want us to turn off our lights.

Um,
posted by ctmf at 6:09 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

How close are the FBI to camp?
posted by mochapickle at 6:09 PM on February 10, 2016

100 feet according to Fry.
posted by Talez at 6:10 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Jesus, these guys are a bewildering mix of stupid and frightening.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 6:10 PM on February 10, 2016

Sandy: "If they tear gas us, that's the same as firing on us. If they fire on us, we will fire on them."
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:11 PM on February 10, 2016

I have been unemployed since Before New year - FIRST week at the new job and the FBI decides TODAY to raid. I missed like an hour of this. I'm calling that FBI number to complain :(

Oh and thanks for the audio link Trochanter and humanfront :)
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:12 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

13K people listening. I started five minutes ago and it was 9K.
posted by mochapickle at 6:12 PM on February 10, 2016

JJ MacNab ‏@jjmacnab 5m5 minutes ago
The false hope that that bitch has given this group is sick.

MacNab is, by the way:
Writer, anti-government extremism at http://Forbes.com | Fellow @ the George Washington Univ Center for Cyber & Homeland Security, Program on Extremism

(that's her twitter bio)
posted by Trochanter at 6:13 PM on February 10, 2016

Sean asking for the cavalry. Any day now!
posted by dhens at 6:16 PM on February 10, 2016

So it seems like Fry has totally lost it and Assemblywoman Fiore's career is disintegrating live online. {settles in with a diet coke and popcorn}
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:17 PM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

(that's her twitter bio)

Yes, we know, she's only been one of the earliest journalists on this story from the beginning.

Fiore is on the line now.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:17 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Who is the calm woman in the video?
posted by Bugbread at 6:18 PM on February 10, 2016

Oh, okay, its Fiore, got it.
posted by Bugbread at 6:19 PM on February 10, 2016

That would be Michelle Fiore.
posted by RedEmma at 6:19 PM on February 10, 2016

Fiore going to call the FBI. Asking the 4 to give her a number. Chaos in logistics.
posted by mochapickle at 6:20 PM on February 10, 2016

Assemblywoman Fiore. State of Nevada - has no power or pull in Oregon or in Federal matters. Not all that much in Nevada either frankly.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:21 PM on February 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Host trying to set up a way for Michele to talk to the FBI and "negotiate" for the 4, but he can't, because the call is on livestream and everyone will hear the phone number.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:21 PM on February 10, 2016

4:30 pm today, one of the occupiers rode an ATV outside the barricades established by the militia at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge.

From the FBI Portland Twitter account. Might explain why things have gone down tonight.
posted by dhens at 6:22 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

FBI confirms
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:22 PM on February 10, 2016

This is totally insane. Who are the other people we are hearing? I am a bit lost here. Sean, Sandy, and the other is Fiore. Who is the clear guy we hear? Did Fry just come on the line? How is this working? Do they have a phone or are they using Fiore's phone?
posted by marienbad at 6:23 PM on February 10, 2016

The FBI doesn't want to talk to some state legislator from some other state. What's she going to say, stand down? No. Is she going to promise the fab 4 surrender? She doesn't have that to offer.
posted by ctmf at 6:23 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fiore is btw NOT known for her acumen in anything. The FBI isn't going to let her act as a negotiator - might as well send in that Montana Natural Man guy. In point of fact , right now Fiore is interfering with an FBO ops and if anything is endangering Fry and the others more than anything else.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:24 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Wowsa.. This is insane.
posted by johnpowell at 6:24 PM on February 10, 2016

"You are violating the constitution if you don't let her have her way"

Holy fuck. This is deluded.
posted by Talez at 6:25 PM on February 10, 2016

David has a cellphone and is talking to "Mark" of the FBI on it. We can hear Michelle Fiore talking in a three-way call from the Idiot Host of the stream and a phone that Sandy also has.

It's confusing because David and Sandy and Sean are completely insane.
posted by RedEmma at 6:25 PM on February 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

I feel sorry for Mark the FBI negotiator.
posted by rockindata at 6:26 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

The host and Michelle Fiore are both using this event to exacerbate the whole thing, for their own ends, and I am pretty angry about it. WTFuckingFuck
posted by RedEmma at 6:26 PM on February 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

"How you gonna end this if we won't come out?"

You gotta sleep sometime, dumbass.
posted by Talez at 6:26 PM on February 10, 2016

Oh, fuck Fiore for trying to use these fools to catapult herself onto the national stage. If she cared at all about a peaceful resolution she would tell them to put down their guns and come out peacefully. She should be censured by Congress for this.
posted by bluecore at 6:27 PM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

The clear guy is the youtube host, Gavin Siem. He's some sort of militia person that had line to Fry when the raid started. The clear lady was Fiore. Fry is the one screaming constantly over everyone. Sean is the one doing most of the other talking, except for when Sandy is crying. No word from Jeff, as usual. It's Fry's phone that he had placed down in front of him and between the 4 and the FBI at one point. It's unclear where the phone is now.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:27 PM on February 10, 2016

Has Jeff said anything at all?
posted by mochapickle at 6:27 PM on February 10, 2016

She's not a congresswoman. She's an assemblywoman in another state.
posted by Talez at 6:27 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Why wouldn't you feel sorry for the FBI negotiator? Fiore's deep connections are sending his ass straight to prison.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 6:27 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sandy says the FBI hung up
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:28 PM on February 10, 2016

You know what? Fuck Fiore. Just getting removed from office isn't enough, the way she's dealing with things right now should get her thrown in jail along with these assholes.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:29 PM on February 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

If Fiore get arrested at the checkpoint I'm buying the whole house a beer.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:30 PM on February 10, 2016 [14 favorites]

Well, I hope they arrest Michelle when she arrives, if that's what she thinks is going to happen.
posted by RedEmma at 6:30 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Michelle Fiore repeating lie that Sheriff Ward has to give FBI authority to operate. Your lies will get people killed.

She's a co-conspirator. Apparently she's at the Portland airport en route to the refuge. She should be arrested there.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:30 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

So glad I raced home to listen to Michelle's travel arrangements!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:31 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Why the heck do these people think that Fiore is actually going to be able to do anything.
posted by Jalliah at 6:32 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

I hope cortex is here - he loves this shit
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:33 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

she's like, the sheriff of Congress, man
posted by indubitable at 6:33 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

The only Nevada person involved is the taciturn Jeff Banta, who is not even one of Fiore's constituents.
posted by dhens at 6:33 PM on February 10, 2016

"Can somebody call the governor"?? (Sean)... I thought these people didn't believe in the governor.
posted by RedEmma at 6:33 PM on February 10, 2016

Oh and these people make me have more sympathy for the FBI then I ever thought was possible.
posted by Jalliah at 6:34 PM on February 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

>Why the heck do these people think that Fiore is actually going to be able to do anything.

Because 1. they keep referring to her as Congresswoman Fiore and 2. They do not understand the difference between a Congressperson and a State legislator. It's probably in the Constitution somewhere but who has time to look that up.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:34 PM on February 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

I feel like we should send alerts to some of the more frequent commenters in this thread to let them know of activity.
posted by mochapickle at 6:34 PM on February 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

"Someone call the State Police too!"

Oh, Sean, you silly goof.
posted by bluecore at 6:35 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well, a few minutes ago, Gavin Seim the Idiot Host had them pray, and then asked them to read the constitution out loud, as if that was some sort of magical spell to save them.
posted by RedEmma at 6:36 PM on February 10, 2016

Wasn't it the state police that shot Finicum?
posted by zombieflanders at 6:36 PM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

As much as this is fascinating in it's bizzareness it is super stupid to be streaming this live as much as they seem to think it's for some sort of positive witnessing.
posted by Jalliah at 6:37 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yes, it was the state police, but that has been completely ignored in the narrative.
posted by MysticMCJ at 6:37 PM on February 10, 2016

Twitter list.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:37 PM on February 10, 2016

Portland? Isn't that, like, 5 hours from where they are?
posted by NoMich at 6:37 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oh, holy crap!

They're shouting at the FBI that they need to stand down, because...Fiore? What?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:37 PM on February 10, 2016

Fry (?): "If they cut our phones off, that probably means that we're dead".

Sod off, you stupid drama queen.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:38 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

As if the FBI are going to do what Fiore says! Telling them to stand down, fuck.

Sandy sounds like she's panicking big time.

This is way way better than any TV.
posted by marienbad at 6:38 PM on February 10, 2016

It's a long way from PDX to the Refuge. (A little under 6 hours.)
posted by dhens at 6:39 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I keep hearing a call waiting beep. I wonder if it's the FBI trying to get through to them.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:39 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Ammo's attorney now on the line. Hope the Oregon bar is listening.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:39 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Shade being thrown on the host's livestream. "We're live on national.... uh... broadcast."
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:40 PM on February 10, 2016

thanks for the live posts... I can't listen to anything like this without feeling super tense and uncomfortable.
posted by MysticMCJ at 6:40 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Fiore baffled that they don't want to talk to her. Argh.
posted by bluecore at 6:42 PM on February 10, 2016

Wait, did David just say he wasn't a Christian? That's a bit of a contradiction from previous chatter.
posted by RedEmma at 6:42 PM on February 10, 2016

Hear that? It's the sound of hundreds of doctoral dissertations in all kinds of disciplines being argued over the next two centuries.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:42 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think the FBI should actually answer Fiore's call, just long enough to give her the FBI Director's number. Then hang up.
posted by ctmf at 6:42 PM on February 10, 2016

Is this Fiore talking right now?
posted by Jalliah at 6:42 PM on February 10, 2016

(You can barely hear him (David) going on and on with probably Mark or someone else... in the background.)
posted by RedEmma at 6:43 PM on February 10, 2016

Is this Fiore talking right now?

Apparently, yes.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:44 PM on February 10, 2016

So help me, Fiore is the closest thing to a voice of reason on this stream.
posted by nicepersonality at 6:44 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Sandy: the MRAPs are rolling forward.
posted by bluecore at 6:44 PM on February 10, 2016

"They're rolling forward... they're about 50 yards from us"
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:45 PM on February 10, 2016

JJ MacNab ‏@jjmacnab 11m11 minutes ago
Mike Arnold, Ammon's attorney is now on the call.
It got worse.

posted by Trochanter at 6:45 PM on February 10, 2016

In all seriousness, I utterly hope and will even pray to a god I no longer believe in that the last sounds I hear in this livestream is not of these poor schmucks getting shot :(
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:45 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Fiore praying with Sandy now, "We are law abiding citizens..."
posted by bluecore at 6:46 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

The way they are acting is unreal. The FBI guys must be shaking their heads in disbelief. Fry has lost it, and as for Banta, what's he doing right now?
posted by marienbad at 6:46 PM on February 10, 2016

Occupiers are clearly terrified. Fiore is really not helping by telling them they're in the right.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:46 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Fiore is starting to break, and ask them to give up, I think...
posted by RedEmma at 6:46 PM on February 10, 2016

Fiore is telling them "Tell them to get me to the refuge, we will come out together".

Self aggrandizing fool.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:47 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Surely they have spent the last few weeks building an A-Team style armored car.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:47 PM on February 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

I think she’s trying to talk them into surrendering.
posted by nicepersonality at 6:47 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

What does Fiore think she's going to do? That she has some sort of assemblywoman diplomatic immunity to smuggle them out of the refuge?
posted by Talez at 6:47 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

She told them to tell the FBI that she will come and walk out with them.

I can't see that happening though.
posted by RedEmma at 6:47 PM on February 10, 2016

as for Banta, what's he doing right now?

I think that's him screaming NO JAIL TIME
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:47 PM on February 10, 2016

I think she's trying to circle the conversation around and get them to surrender. FBI helping her with what to say?
posted by ctmf at 6:47 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

AGameOfMoans - yeah, I know what you mean. It sounds like it is going to end like that, the way they are acting.
posted by marienbad at 6:47 PM on February 10, 2016

Sandy seemed ready to go and Fiore told her to wait until she gets there.
posted by readery at 6:48 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

They sound like they're too far gone.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:48 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fiore is tryting to convince Sandy to tell the FBI that Fiore will come and walk them out.
posted by Jalliah at 6:48 PM on February 10, 2016

Now Sandy is trying to tell the others and Mark/FBI that Fiore will walk them out when she gets there.
posted by Jalliah at 6:49 PM on February 10, 2016

I think Fiore is trying to get the FBI to give her a ride, too.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:49 PM on February 10, 2016

Fiore has not even left the Portland airport yet. What a poser.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:49 PM on February 10, 2016

They won't let a potential hostage walk in there for christ's sake.
posted by Trochanter at 6:50 PM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

She's 6 hours away unless the FBI sends a helicopter. I don't see this lasting 6 hours in the state they're in. Even assuming the FBI would agree to that. She's just as likely to join them, the FBI is not going to want to introduce another life into this.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:50 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

And David( I think)is just yelling in the background.

"The Bible says we have a right to defend ourselves."
posted by Jalliah at 6:50 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

"The bible says we have the right to defend ourselves"
posted by Floydd at 6:50 PM on February 10, 2016

"The Bible says we have the right to defend ourselves"
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:50 PM on February 10, 2016

David sounds like he's lost it. I can't imagine he can keep up this yelling or energy for very long.
posted by bluecore at 6:51 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oh, Fry is the screaming maniac.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:51 PM on February 10, 2016

Assuming Fiore is not as nuts as they are, I think she's trying to convince them that there's no way the FBI would shoot her, as their world view pretty requires them to believe that if they were to try to surrender the FBI would just shoot them all. As if the FBI couldn't have just shot them all any number of times.

I'm not sure Fiore has 52 cards in her deck, though, so that's just the most charitable read I can come up with.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 6:52 PM on February 10, 2016

Sandy saying FBI is not listening to what they are trying to tell them about Fiore and they're trying to get David to calm down.
posted by Jalliah at 6:52 PM on February 10, 2016

"We haven't broken any laws!"

They're delusional.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:52 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

All the FBI has to do is sit in the MRAPS until they yell themselves out & collapse, exhausted.
posted by Floydd at 6:52 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sean is on the other phone talking to Franklin Graham. David is screaming and Sandy is telling him to stop.
posted by RedEmma at 6:53 PM on February 10, 2016

Yeah, seconding Trochanter - no way the FBI's letting Fiore into the refuge.
posted by soundguy99 at 6:53 PM on February 10, 2016

Damn it, I need to leave to go to my book group.

(If people die I'm going to feel bad about being flip.)
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:53 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

You know what the strange thing is? Much as Fry is screaming like a crazy person right now, and has been streaming the bizarre rants, does anyone else feel like if their life had gone a different way they could have ended up in his position? Like, remember when you were an angry young man, but you went a certain way, and ended up here, and if you had gone a slightly different route, you'd be where he is right now? Because I sure do, and that's a frightening thought.
posted by marienbad at 6:53 PM on February 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

Sean is getting worked up more and more too. Still stuck in his insistence on no charges.
posted by RedEmma at 6:54 PM on February 10, 2016

It's the quiet one, Jeff? That'll kill or get killed.
posted by valkane at 6:55 PM on February 10, 2016

Host wants another prayer to calm everyone down. Because the first 2 were so calming
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:55 PM on February 10, 2016

"We can't scream pray...."
posted by Floydd at 6:55 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

All the FBI has to do is sit in the MRAPS until they yell themselves out & collapse, exhausted.

Or just let them shoot at the MRAPS until they run out of bullets. They won't make a dent.
posted by bluecore at 6:55 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

"We can't scream praying." - Fiore (I think)
posted by dhens at 6:55 PM on February 10, 2016

OK this is maybe the first time in a long time when I actually think that them all praying together now can actually make things better.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:56 PM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Fiore: "Dear Jesus, please protect us, we are law abiding citizens...we are going to exist this refuge, and we are going to teach the world the constitution..."
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:56 PM on February 10, 2016

“We are going to leave this refuge safe and alive.” —Fiore, leading them in prayer
posted by nicepersonality at 6:56 PM on February 10, 2016

I think Michele's helping: She's making surrender seem like a real option. Sandy would have walked out ten minutes ago if it weren't for the others.
posted by mochapickle at 6:56 PM on February 10, 2016

I feel sorry for the family standing behind Fiore at the Portland Airport Cinnabon. "I just want an order of CinnaStix, Ma'am... Ma'am?"
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:57 PM on February 10, 2016 [12 favorites]

Fiore is SO out of her element here. You can hear the fear in her voice as I think she realizes this may go very very bad for the group - and for her.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:57 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

It sounds like she's taking another mental step with them, she's going to escort them out virtually by telecon.
posted by ctmf at 6:57 PM on February 10, 2016

Sandy!! No you can't keep your wepeon when you walk oiut! Dammit.
posted by Jalliah at 6:58 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sandy: "Not without our weapons. We're not leaving without our weapons".

Insane.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:58 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

She's actually doing a pretty good job easing them into it. That's why I think the FBI has someone coaching her.
posted by ctmf at 6:58 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sandy is refusing to go unless she can keep her weapon. Fiore trying to convince why she doesn't need it.
posted by Jalliah at 6:59 PM on February 10, 2016

HOLY SHIT Sean is getting to be the reasonable one!
posted by RedEmma at 6:59 PM on February 10, 2016

I'm prepared to say Michelle Fiore is being a little bit of a hero, right now.

I wouldn't say that. She helped create this situation. At best she is cleaning up her own mess.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:59 PM on February 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

Sean listening: He understands Michele's point that they can't have weapons walking out.
posted by mochapickle at 7:00 PM on February 10, 2016

I guess they speak a particular language, and she's the closest thing to a native interpreter that they have.
posted by MysticMCJ at 7:00 PM on February 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Sean says he understands they'll have to leave without weapons; Sandy is the one refusing.
posted by RedEmma at 7:00 PM on February 10, 2016

Man we should have sent David some Valium instead of dildoes
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:01 PM on February 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

She's actually doing a pretty good job easing them into it. That's why I think the FBI has someone coaching her.

More likely Ammon's lawyer. They kill an agent and the shit hits Ammon too.
posted by bluecore at 7:01 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Now they seem like they're accepting prison as a possibily but are afraid that they will be left there with no help if they go. Fiore telling them she won't leave them in there.
posted by Jalliah at 7:01 PM on February 10, 2016

Oh god if Fiore is the hero here she really will be a congresswoman next year.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:01 PM on February 10, 2016

Fiore: "America is with you"

Sean: "Then why isn't America here in force?"
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:02 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

The mayor??
posted by Floydd at 7:02 PM on February 10, 2016

Now it's the mayor of Burns on the phone.
posted by RedEmma at 7:02 PM on February 10, 2016

The mayor??

Pretty sure that was a prank call, wasn't it? He plugged a website. edit: I might be wrong. It happened fast.
posted by bluecore at 7:03 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sean: "David, sit down and leave that thing [loudhailer] the fuck alone. SHUT UP!"
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:03 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

America - Here in force sounds like it should be emblazoned on the side of an official vehicle
posted by MysticMCJ at 7:03 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Sounds like they're getting tired of Fry's shit.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:03 PM on February 10, 2016

Sean losing it on David for moving around
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:03 PM on February 10, 2016

Sean tells David to sit the fuck down and SHUT UP... Sean loses it at David.
posted by RedEmma at 7:04 PM on February 10, 2016

I think that Sean just chewed out David ??? Like really badly? This is SO close to going pear shaped :(
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:04 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Come on Sean, you can do it. Just give up.
posted by RedEmma at 7:06 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fiore is saying FBI is refusing to negotiate with an elected offical and that's their bad.
posted by Jalliah at 7:06 PM on February 10, 2016

Live stream on Gawker now. Lot more people going to see this
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:06 PM on February 10, 2016

Now it's a "teaching" mission.
posted by Floydd at 7:06 PM on February 10, 2016

42K people listening to that live feed now
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:06 PM on February 10, 2016

Does Fiore actually believe this crap she's saying or is it for their benefit?
posted by Jalliah at 7:07 PM on February 10, 2016

Sandy: "They're just going to add more and more charges and keep us in there [jail] forever! And then we'll never get out!... I'm not going to jail".
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:07 PM on February 10, 2016

Fiores a true believer.
posted by Floydd at 7:08 PM on February 10, 2016

Brilliant, Fiore and the FBI stories are in alignment, they're hearing the same thing from all sides. FBI: come out so you can tell your story
posted by ctmf at 7:09 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fiores a true believer.

Well that's just sad and pathetic.
posted by Jalliah at 7:09 PM on February 10, 2016

Her own ego got in the way (Michelle's) ... now she's saying they should send a helicopter for her to "walk them out."
posted by RedEmma at 7:09 PM on February 10, 2016

Sean might surrender just to get away from David.
posted by benito.strauss at 7:09 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fiore is now instructing them to get the FBI to send a chopper for her.

She wants the glory of bringing them out herself.

FBI says "No one is going to be allowed on the refuge until you come out".
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:09 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Which of course will not happen.
posted by RedEmma at 7:09 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

OPB has video of Fiore at the airport.
posted by valkane at 7:09 PM on February 10, 2016

helicopters
posted by mochapickle at 7:10 PM on February 10, 2016

@jjmacnab: No one - not Michele Fiore, Gavin Seim, or anyone else -- has said the words: they don't want to kill you, they want to arrest you.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:10 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Her own ego got in the way (Michelle's) ... now she's saying they should send a helicopter for her to "walk them out."
posted by RedEmma at 7:09 PM on February 10 [+] [!]

The FBI agent on the phone explicitly said they won't allow Fiore on the reserve.
posted by gc at 7:11 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Wait who is this "Grant" who is praying?
posted by dhens at 7:11 PM on February 10, 2016

Shit, I think she’s working them up again.
posted by nicepersonality at 7:11 PM on February 10, 2016

Oh gods, more prayers.

"Dear god, bring down the powers of darkness"?!?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:11 PM on February 10, 2016

Fiore is literally trying to betray them.
posted by Talez at 7:11 PM on February 10, 2016

She needs to get off the helicopter thing.


And of course if the FBI doesn't do it then it's their fault.
posted by Jalliah at 7:11 PM on February 10, 2016

"Blackhawks are here, they're going to kill us".

They are absolutely terrified. And delusional.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:12 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

FBI: "WE WANT YOU TO WALK OUT PEACEFULLY. DO NOT DISPLAY WEAPONS."
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:12 PM on February 10, 2016

Sandy: "We not coming out with them alone...they said the time for concessions is past".
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:13 PM on February 10, 2016

Sean and Sandy seem to go in and out of being reasonable, but it's never at the same time as each other.
posted by bluecore at 7:14 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Who’s the guy on the phone sitting next to Fiore at the airport? as seen in this tweet
posted by nicepersonality at 7:14 PM on February 10, 2016

Sean: "We're not giving them any reason, but my weapon is in reach... if they fire first, I'm taking them out with me".

They must know the FBI is listening, right? And they're making these kinds of threats.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:15 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

.they said the time for concessions is past".

Apparently everyone's out of popcorn
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:15 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Judy Thomas ‏@judylthomas 15m15 minutes ago

Fiore: "I need you guys alive, please. I'm here working with the attorney to get you home."

Maybe the lawyer?
posted by indubitable at 7:15 PM on February 10, 2016

Is the FBI field negotiator hearing Fiore? She's actually making some progress. Im not sure that the FBI knows that though.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:16 PM on February 10, 2016

Oh man, the hurt in Fiore's voice when Sean tells her that Rev. Graham says that the FBI will let him walk them out with him.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:16 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Sean and Sandy seem to go in and out of being reasonable, but it's never at the same time as each other.

I'm noticing that too.
posted by Jalliah at 7:16 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I would love to hear the FBI private communications channel during all this. Because if we've got people calling the situation here, I can only imagine what they're saying to one another.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 7:16 PM on February 10, 2016

Who’s the guy on the phone sitting next to Fiore at the airport? as seen in this tweet

Probably some kind of idiotsitter situation.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 7:17 PM on February 10, 2016

Fiore is on a payphone! how many quarters has she got in her purse?
posted by marienbad at 7:17 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

With Gavin Seim and Michelle Fiore on their side, these numbnuts will be lucky if they only wind up dead.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:18 PM on February 10, 2016

It sounds like Franklin Graham told them he could walk them out, but it’s not clear that wasn’t a fib to try to get them out.
posted by nicepersonality at 7:18 PM on February 10, 2016

FBI is listening to the live feed. Sean just said Mark said he could hear him through this feed.
posted by Jalliah at 7:18 PM on February 10, 2016

If Franklin Graham lied to Sean about his alleged deal with the FBI, he fucked up big time.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:18 PM on February 10, 2016

She's not on a payphone. That's her charger plugged in at the airport.
posted by RedEmma at 7:19 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Fiore is on a payphone! how many quarters has she got in her purse?

She was asking for a credit card a second ago. I guess the beeps I keep hearing is the credit on the phone running out?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:19 PM on February 10, 2016

Not a payphone, she's plugged into the wall.
posted by Floydd at 7:19 PM on February 10, 2016

Sandy is delusional. She thinks she can take her weapon, walk out and go home.
posted by Jalliah at 7:19 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Fiore is on a payphone! how many quarters has she got in her purse?

It just looks like that. Her charger is plugged in.
posted by dhens at 7:19 PM on February 10, 2016

The guy on the phone next to her is probably livestreaming it and wondering why he is getting a ton of feedback. Either that or having the worst game of Angry Birds ever.
posted by marienbad at 7:19 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Crap they're going backwards, back into their delusion..
posted by RedEmma at 7:21 PM on February 10, 2016

51K people on the stream
posted by mochapickle at 7:21 PM on February 10, 2016

The host isn't helping: "God can confound the wicked..."
posted by bluecore at 7:22 PM on February 10, 2016

Well, they sounded like progress there for a minute. Now Sean is back to the FBI must stand down, nothing less will do. We're back to square one. They're all violently bipolar within the span of a few minutes.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:22 PM on February 10, 2016

I think the guy next to her there is Mike Arnold??
posted by RedEmma at 7:22 PM on February 10, 2016

Oh, if true, this is not good: “CLIVEN BUNDY IS HEADING TO THE HARNEY COUNTY RESOURCE CENTER IN BURNS”
posted by nicepersonality at 7:22 PM on February 10, 2016

(Ammon's lawyer)
posted by RedEmma at 7:22 PM on February 10, 2016

Crap they're going backwards, back into their delusion..


I know it was looking good for bit like they were almost there. And now it's back to the beginning pretty much.
posted by Jalliah at 7:23 PM on February 10, 2016

The fact that the occupiers are so terrified, and don't trust the FBI not to flat out execute them and cover it up, is a problem.

Their paranoia is the main obstacle to their giving up.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:23 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Ammon's lawyer. She just got in a truck with him.
posted by mochapickle at 7:23 PM on February 10, 2016

Good. Arrest him too.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:23 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Sean: "I can guarantee that we can all leave tomorrow with Rev Graham without (with?) our weapons...but they won't wait for that and we'll all die".
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:24 PM on February 10, 2016

Their paranoia is the main obstacle to their giving up.

Well they're in denial, too.
posted by Trochanter at 7:24 PM on February 10, 2016

Did Michele just say they couldn't die because she didn't have a chance to hug them?
posted by mochapickle at 7:24 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

It's times like this that I really wish the X-Men or similar were a thing, and we could just send Quicksliver in to swipe all their weapons and set them up to punch each other in the face and knock themselves out in the blink of an eye.
posted by MysticMCJ at 7:24 PM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Fiore goes "I can't have you dying because I never got to hug you" .
What the Frackitty Frack ??? !
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:25 PM on February 10, 2016

Did Michele just say they couldn't die because she didn't have a chance to hug them?

She's at her wits end. I think she's starting to realise these people are on the edge of sanity.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:25 PM on February 10, 2016

Did Michele just say they couldn't die because she didn't have a chance to hug them?

Yes.
posted by Jalliah at 7:25 PM on February 10, 2016

That's what it sounded like. I think maybe she said "help"?
posted by dhens at 7:25 PM on February 10, 2016

Oh gods, and they're saying that their situation is 'slavery'.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:25 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fiore is on the move
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:26 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sean's penny has finally dropped. Ahahahahaha he figured it out.
posted by Talez at 7:26 PM on February 10, 2016

It is so sad that these guys just don't seem to understand that protesting like they did could end in jail.
posted by Jalliah at 7:27 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fry is now yelling about how the PPN and III% have abandoned them and are infiltrated by the FBI.
posted by nicepersonality at 7:27 PM on February 10, 2016

This isn't about their paranoia -That's just for show - a tantrum. I feel very sure of that. It's about their not wanting to face the consequences of their actions, i.e.court and jail. They're like children. Heavily. Armed. Children.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:27 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Fiore is so far out of her depth and is probably only just now realising how bad the situation truly is.
posted by marienbad at 7:27 PM on February 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

She's building rapport, the hugging thing is pretty good actually. Trying to remind them of a human connection. She's actually doing an admirable job as a completely untrained crisis negotiator.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:28 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Fiore trying to give a lesson on constitutional law is like watching a duck trying to play chess.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:29 PM on February 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

a completely untrained crisis negotiator.

You mean, like a mom?
posted by valkane at 7:29 PM on February 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Hey, Jeff!!
posted by Floydd at 7:29 PM on February 10, 2016

Is she not being coached??
posted by librarina at 7:30 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

This isn't about their paranoia -That's just for show - a tantrum. I feel very sure of that. It's about their not wanting to face the consequences of their actions, i.e.court and jail.

Perhaps, but I think they are genuinely afraid.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:30 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sandy: "We're being crucified!
posted by zakur at 7:31 PM on February 10, 2016

"So when you get here tomorrow with Franklin Graham, we'll turn ourselves in. If that can't be accepted, then we die here."
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:31 PM on February 10, 2016

Sean is saying the will walk out with Graham and Fiore tomorrow that is the concession tehy're asking for now.

Sandy in the background going 'No No"
posted by Jalliah at 7:31 PM on February 10, 2016

Gavin the radio host: "Remember, the courts are bad! We're not going to let you rot in there".

Not helping, dude.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:32 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm impressed with Michelle Fiore's effort here. I totally disagree with her politics, but man she's got some serious zen calm going on here.
posted by humanfont at 7:32 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

A plan is good.
posted by valkane at 7:33 PM on February 10, 2016

Oh gawd now this is sad. Talking about his family.
posted by Jalliah at 7:33 PM on February 10, 2016

Sean: "God put us on this path."
posted by gc at 7:33 PM on February 10, 2016

Heartbreaking: Michele asks them to live for their families, and Sean says that god had already relieved them of that burden, as their families are estranged.
posted by mochapickle at 7:33 PM on February 10, 2016

Oh lord. They’re saying God alienated their children from them so that they could do this without worrying about their family.
posted by nicepersonality at 7:33 PM on February 10, 2016

Sean: "Michelle, you don't have any power. It has to be their way or no way".
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:33 PM on February 10, 2016

Gavin the radio host praying about abortion now?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:34 PM on February 10, 2016

I won't go to jail. I won't, I won't, I won't!
posted by Trochanter at 7:34 PM on February 10, 2016

I disagree humanfront - I truly hope that you are correct but I think she is misreading the situation badly plus is only concerned with her own aggrandizement. I don't see how she can possibly help. They're going to see through her soon and that's when things will go badly
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:34 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Which feed are people listening to? I'm following YouTube and it seems to be 2-3 minutes behind you others.
posted by benito.strauss at 7:35 PM on February 10, 2016

I think Fiore might actually be making more headway if they didn't have this Gavin nutjob talking about the valley of the shadow of death every five minutes.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:35 PM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

According to OregonLive (the rump website of the dying Oregonian newspaper), the FBI moved into all of the buildings Tuesday night and have been there all day, unnoticed.
posted by msalt at 7:35 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

I have never wanted to punch someone so much as I do Gavin.
posted by RedEmma at 7:36 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Sandy: "Just kill us and get it over with!"
posted by zakur at 7:36 PM on February 10, 2016

benito, refresh! there should be a little red dot next to the word Live.
posted by mochapickle at 7:36 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sandy: "KILL US AND GET IT OVER WITH. OH MY GOD."
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:36 PM on February 10, 2016

(you can also click on the word LIVE if the feed gets out of sync.)
posted by mochapickle at 7:37 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Gavin is the worst. I think he’s trying to talk them into walking out, but he keeps agreeing with them that the courts are corrupt and that works them up again.
posted by nicepersonality at 7:37 PM on February 10, 2016

They've probably got people 20 feet away in the dark ready to subdue them if possible. They're being exceedingly patient, if they can talk them into putting down the guns, it'll be over in seconds.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:37 PM on February 10, 2016

Fiore: "We need to pick a new battleground".

Sandy: "It's not in the courts!"

"Fiore: "It's not in the graveyard"

Sandy: "Then I want no part of it"
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:38 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Ohh a guest appearance by Jeff!
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:38 PM on February 10, 2016

Jeff speaks! I almost forgot he was still there.
posted by zakur at 7:38 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

According to OregonLive (the rump website of the dying Oregonian newspaper), the FBI moved into all of the buildings Tuesday night and have been there all day, unnoticed.

Must be the tension, this made laugh out loud and have fit of giggles.
posted by Jalliah at 7:39 PM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Someone needs to tell Sandy that George Washington spent the first part of the Revolution strategically running away from the British.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:40 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Jeff speaks! I almost forgot he was still there.

Everybody forgets about Jeff. :(
posted by Talez at 7:40 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Jeff seems pretty chill.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:40 PM on February 10, 2016

They were probably wearing dildo camo
posted by RedEmma at 7:40 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

FYI - Last time Jeff listened to Fiore - last week - he told everyone she was full of it. Jeff hates her.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:40 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Gavin's a dick.
posted by Floydd at 7:41 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Jeff is the lone wolfiest of them all. And he's still there.
posted by valkane at 7:42 PM on February 10, 2016

There is no way Fiore is in a car driving toward them like she claims. There’s no road noise, no change in the signal.
posted by nicepersonality at 7:42 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Sean: "If they want a peaceful resolution, give us one more fucking day. Otherwise, we're going to stay here and die!"
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:42 PM on February 10, 2016

Prayer time right now!
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 7:42 PM on February 10, 2016

Sandy: "They're telling us to rally around the American flag so they can shoot us!"
posted by zakur at 7:43 PM on February 10, 2016

Every time they have a prayer sesh, things get worse, I don't know why Fiore asked for it.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:43 PM on February 10, 2016

She seems to be calling for a prayer whenever they get too worked up. It kind of calms them down. I don't really like her, but that does seem to be helping.
posted by Weeping_angel at 7:43 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

“If we’re still alive, we’ll have coffee.” I believe I have just found common ground(s) with the occupiers.
posted by nicepersonality at 7:43 PM on February 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Someone needs to tell Sandy that George Washington spent the first part of the Revolution strategically running away from the British.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fabian_strategy

(I just learned about this in Lafayette in the Somewhat United States!)
posted by librarina at 7:44 PM on February 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Fry is praying - crazy prayer?? Who is 'Ya ??
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:44 PM on February 10, 2016

They interrupted our prayers:(
posted by Floydd at 7:45 PM on February 10, 2016

"Of the foursome, Sandy seems to be emerging as the alpha extremist." -- jj macnab
posted by valkane at 7:45 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Sandy angry that FBI interrupted their prayer on purpose.
posted by Jalliah at 7:45 PM on February 10, 2016

Fry is laughing maniacally in the background.

Fiore: "Let's say a prayer that they allow some concessions."

It seems like Sandy just realized that other people are listening to this phone conversation.
posted by zakur at 7:47 PM on February 10, 2016

God is more powerful than the US Federal Government.

Sure. Whatever.
posted by Talez at 7:47 PM on February 10, 2016

UGH GAVIN SHUT UP.
posted by nicepersonality at 7:47 PM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Fry is praying - crazy prayer?? Who is 'Ya ??

That's how he pronounces "Jah." Yaw rastafurry!
posted by msalt at 7:48 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

They still can't comprehend why thousands of people haven't flocked to Malheur. Oy.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 7:48 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sean getting sick of the prayers.
posted by zakur at 7:48 PM on February 10, 2016

Sean: "We've said so many prayers"
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:48 PM on February 10, 2016

Sean wants a bump and beer.
posted by valkane at 7:49 PM on February 10, 2016

Sean expressing extreme disappointment that they thought people were coming and no one showed up to help them.

Gavin "America failed"
posted by Jalliah at 7:49 PM on February 10, 2016

Sean is done.
posted by Jalliah at 7:49 PM on February 10, 2016

Sean has lost it.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:50 PM on February 10, 2016

Jeff is the guy who brought out the moldy weed the first night the FBI moved in. My theory is he's an FBI plant, he has studiously stayed off camera and sounds like he's trying to imitate the surfer turtle from Finding Nemo. Totally a Narc.
posted by TungstenChef at 7:50 PM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

"We'll probably be dead then."
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 7:51 PM on February 10, 2016

What a nightmare for the sane. Everyday reality for the occupiers and their supporters. So, I worry the sane are on less stable footing.
posted by Oyéah at 7:51 PM on February 10, 2016

Fry shouted back, "We're leaving tomorrow."

This is silliest thing I've heard yet.

We're gonna go! Sheesh, quit nagging! You're worse than my mom! ERRRRRRR!
posted by msalt at 7:51 PM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Fiore: Folks in New York and New Jersey are with you. right...
posted by marienbad at 7:52 PM on February 10, 2016

Sandy's such a whiner!!
posted by Floydd at 7:53 PM on February 10, 2016

I can't even get cell service in the supermarket to ask if we need milk and these yahoos managed to conference call a live stream in the middle of an armed stand-off in rural Oregon.
posted by bluecore at 7:53 PM on February 10, 2016 [21 favorites]

God could you imagine being some poor unknowing state trooper who pulls Fiore over for speeding while she's en route?
posted by dhens at 7:53 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Do you think Fiore believes that the 60 thousand watching this are all supporters like she's trying to tell them?
posted by Jalliah at 7:53 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Gotta be Verizon.
posted by valkane at 7:54 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Worst Bible camp EVER!
posted by zakur at 7:54 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Do you think Fiore believes that the 60 thousand watching this are all supporters like she's trying to tell them?

Well, I'm not even American!

But I think her point is that they have witnesses, so the FBI won't execute them.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:55 PM on February 10, 2016

Do you think Fiore believes that the 60 thousand watching this are all supporters like she's trying to tell them?

I'm positive she knows better. But I think she thinks that acting like they are will help bring them out alive.
posted by mochapickle at 7:55 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Sean: "If we're dead the American people will be mad as hell!"

Meh.
posted by bluecore at 7:55 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Fiore is slowly running out of things to say. That’s not good.
posted by nicepersonality at 7:56 PM on February 10, 2016

I'm not even American!

Me too. So that's -2 from the total.
posted by Jalliah at 7:56 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

She's a hell of a ways away, across the Cascades. There's going to be several lengthy periods of no cell reception.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:56 PM on February 10, 2016

"We're going to get our land back".

None of the people in this call are even from Oregon!
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:56 PM on February 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

"We're putting on our big-girl panties." OK....
posted by gamera at 7:57 PM on February 10, 2016

Harriet Jones, Prime Minister , would totally have fixed this by now
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:57 PM on February 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

She's hoping that they hit Government Camp Pass soon.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 7:57 PM on February 10, 2016

She should talk the pros and cons of the .308 vs. .30-06 with Jeff. Cuz I don't think these folks are golfers.
posted by valkane at 7:57 PM on February 10, 2016

Fiore: "We're putting our big girl panties on and taking this country back. The right way. Through the rule of law."
posted by zakur at 7:58 PM on February 10, 2016

lol, Braveheart
posted by dhens at 7:58 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Braveheart!
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 7:58 PM on February 10, 2016

Um, Sean? Baveheart is a MOVIE!!!
posted by Floydd at 7:58 PM on February 10, 2016

Sean comparing himself to Braveheart now...
posted by Jalliah at 7:58 PM on February 10, 2016

Only 4 hours driving to go then...
posted by Windopaene at 7:59 PM on February 10, 2016

"Depending on which route they take, she has 45mi to an hour before she may hit some cell dead spots in the mtns." --jj macnab feed
posted by valkane at 7:59 PM on February 10, 2016

Braveheart didn't wear panties.
posted by peeedro at 7:59 PM on February 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Scotland must be free!
posted by kevin is... at 7:59 PM on February 10, 2016

Sean referencing Braveheart
posted by zakur at 7:59 PM on February 10, 2016

Fucking Braveheart. That's another strike against Mel Gibson.
posted by benito.strauss at 7:59 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

This is nucking futz. This (livestreaming this "event" and all the concomitant crazy) is not the future I imagined living in. I want to go back being awed that I could hold up my ipad to the sky and have it show me the constellations (while I listen, mind agape, to said livestream where Fiore is the rational-sounding one)
posted by achrise at 7:59 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Mel Gibson's grasp of history has a lot to answer for
posted by Countess Elena at 8:00 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Shit if this goes for 6 hours till she gets there Im going to have to call out of work tomorrow.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:00 PM on February 10, 2016

Sandy says more cars coming in.
posted by Jalliah at 8:01 PM on February 10, 2016

This is a terrible time for me to have a meeting! See you in a hour.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:01 PM on February 10, 2016

"WITNESS ME!!!"
posted by valkane at 8:01 PM on February 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

I thought the FBI had completely cut off communications. This is just bizarre. They sound completely addled and disconnected from reality.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:02 PM on February 10, 2016

"They're lying" Whoops, mistake. Fiore needs to be aligning with and supporting the FBI, not making them more distrustful. To be fair, she had no good choice there, after claiming the militia didn't abandon them. FBI screwed her by saying that.
posted by ctmf at 8:02 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Somebody get Fiore a map!
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 8:02 PM on February 10, 2016

"They broke through our other barricades as well." -- I am surprised that their barricades of discarded water bottles didn't keep them at bay!
posted by dhens at 8:02 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Shit if this goes for 6 hours till she gets there Im going to have to call out of work tomorrow.

I was just thinking about that. Though I could listen at work as well.
posted by Jalliah at 8:03 PM on February 10, 2016

Sean: "If this was Black Lives Matter, ACLU would be here right now!"
posted by zakur at 8:03 PM on February 10, 2016

I can't even get cell service in the supermarket to ask if we need milk and these yahoos managed to conference call a live stream in the middle of an armed stand-off in rural Oregon.

I imagine the FBI might have something to do with the rock solid internet connection.
posted by rdr at 8:04 PM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Of all Mel Gibson's movies set in the past, Road Warrior was far and away the most accurate portrayal of the era (and kind of what these guys are pulling for anyway, near as I can tell.)
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 8:04 PM on February 10, 2016

Oh shit, oh dear. I hope Sherriff Dave survives this.
posted by Oyéah at 8:04 PM on February 10, 2016

If I had to stay on the phone for 5 hours with Fiore I would absolutely give myself up even if I were going to Gitmo.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:05 PM on February 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Oop! Prayer time! But Marks gonna interrupt:(
posted by Floydd at 8:05 PM on February 10, 2016

Oh fucking hell, not another prayer.
posted by bluecore at 8:05 PM on February 10, 2016

Bad time to conduct an experiment Fiore
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:06 PM on February 10, 2016

Black Lives Matter don't fuck with BIRDS you idjit!
posted by valkane at 8:06 PM on February 10, 2016

Prayer is the only thing that gets Fry to shut his mouth
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:06 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

I can't even get cell service in the supermarket to ask if we need milk and these yahoos managed to conference call a live stream in the middle of an armed stand-off in rural Oregon.

I smell an ad for Verizon coming on. Can you hear me now?
posted by msalt at 8:07 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

You know it's tense when lighting a propane heater could cause a problem.
posted by Jalliah at 8:09 PM on February 10, 2016

Was that the lawyer lecturing on Occam's razor?
posted by zakur at 8:09 PM on February 10, 2016

They are speeding on Highway 26. What are the odds of a ticket in Warm Springs?
posted by humanfont at 8:10 PM on February 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Ok, I need to call it a night soon. All I keep hearing in my head is Got To Give It Up
posted by readery at 8:11 PM on February 10, 2016

Fiore mad at the negotiator: "He's got a big ego!" No irony.
posted by bluecore at 8:11 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

I still don’t believe they are actually on the road at all.
posted by nicepersonality at 8:12 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm trying to figure out what the FBI's strategy is eg "Mark". It's obvious they're listening and sounds like they're responding to some things that are being said but at the same time they seem like they're totally ignoring what's going on with Fiore.
posted by Jalliah at 8:12 PM on February 10, 2016

They're waiting on Mulder.
posted by valkane at 8:13 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

They are speeding on Highway 26. What are the odds of a ticket in Warm Springs?

Yeah, I can picture the tribal officer saying "And I care about these assholes WHY?"
posted by msalt at 8:14 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Fiore: "We're gonna make it through this and we're gonna write about it."

There's her other angle. Be the hero. Win her US House election. Write a bestseller about it.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:14 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's obvious they're listening and sounds like they're responding to some things that are being said but at the same time they seem like they're totally ignoring what's going on with Fiore.

There's probably 50-100 agents there, the guy on the bullhorn is just an agent keeping up the overt tactical presence. "Mark" is the negotiator on a phone in the back of the command vehicle. The two are separated by the scene commander, it's a very fluid situation.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:16 PM on February 10, 2016

Oh, man, I've got an 8 hour drive tomorrow. I gotta go to bed. Love you guys!
posted by Floydd at 8:16 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Fiore claims GPS says they'll be there by 1 AM (PST).

Sean says "That's FIVE hours!"
posted by zakur at 8:17 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh gawd, the Sharp singer chick. I gotta go to bed....
posted by Floydd at 8:18 PM on February 10, 2016

The VonRoadtrap Singers just offered to do a song - it's a Variety show!
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:18 PM on February 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

There's probably 50-100 agents there, the guy on the bullhorn is just an agent keeping up the overt tactical presence. "Mark" is the negotiator on a phone in the back of the command vehicle. The two are separated by the scene commander, it's a very fluid situation.

Ah okay. Thanks
posted by Jalliah at 8:18 PM on February 10, 2016

man, this thread is so much more exciting than the new hampshire election what-ifs thread
posted by ryanrs at 8:18 PM on February 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

I'll be honest I won't be able to listen if she starts actually singing.
posted by Jalliah at 8:19 PM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Well, thank YA she got cut off.
posted by RedEmma at 8:21 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Can we get the Trump Youth girls next?
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:21 PM on February 10, 2016

What are the chances Franklin Graham never got permission to get to the refuge, like he said, and he was just stalling?
posted by mochapickle at 8:21 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

If she does a cover of "Never Gonna Give You Up" I will totally buy everyone TWO beers.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:21 PM on February 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'm liking the reason they're coming up with the difference in information that they getting from different people. -Delay in communication due to government incompetence.
posted by Jalliah at 8:22 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh, I think I just caught a Field of Dreams reference, add that to the list.
posted by kevin is... at 8:22 PM on February 10, 2016

Oh no...singing is coming....
posted by Jalliah at 8:23 PM on February 10, 2016

I think Graham and Fiore are both trying to talk them out on their own, and promising things they’ve never discussed with the FBI
posted by nicepersonality at 8:23 PM on February 10, 2016

and a one .. and a two....
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:24 PM on February 10, 2016

All right guys, I can't listen to this circle jerk anymore. I just wanted to tell you good luck, we're all counting on you.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 8:24 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh for fucks' sake. He lost the important call trying to get the singer.
posted by ctmf at 8:24 PM on February 10, 2016

Oh my god. Gavin just hung up on the occupiers by patching in to that Victoria girl.
posted by nicepersonality at 8:25 PM on February 10, 2016

Oh man.... nothing worse than voicemail during a hostage negotiation.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:25 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

And I thought Coast To Coast Am was best radio ever.
posted by valkane at 8:25 PM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

This trying to get the singing is tense.

And now he's screwed it all up and lost them.
posted by Jalliah at 8:25 PM on February 10, 2016

Everybody wants to get patched in on the LIVE FEED, 60K+ listeners!!
posted by readery at 8:25 PM on February 10, 2016

In trying to connect Sharpe, the host cut off Fiore.
posted by zakur at 8:25 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

What a nightmare clown show.
posted by Oyéah at 8:25 PM on February 10, 2016

"Sorry we can't come to the phone right now. Please leave a message and we'll get back to you in 15-20 years"
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:25 PM on February 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

*redial, redial, redial*
posted by valkane at 8:26 PM on February 10, 2016

YOU HAD ONE JOB
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:26 PM on February 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

Guys I can't believe that just happened.

That was stupid.
posted by Jalliah at 8:26 PM on February 10, 2016

grabbing a flashlight seems like bad idea
posted by dhens at 8:28 PM on February 10, 2016

That was stupid.

can we change the thread title to this?
posted by ryanrs at 8:28 PM on February 10, 2016 [18 favorites]

I really want these folks to get out safe because I'm going to feel really bad about laughing right now if they don't.
posted by Jalliah at 8:28 PM on February 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

the FBI moved into all of the buildings Tuesday night and have been there all day, unnoticed.

The campers are like 10-15 feet from the buildings, right? How did they not start giggling?
posted by msalt at 8:29 PM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

I can't listen to this anymore. The collective IQ of this conference call is like 15.
posted by zakur at 8:29 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

He has a point, good people do go to the bathroom outside.
posted by kevin is... at 8:29 PM on February 10, 2016

They're pooping outside. It shows their good faith!
posted by dhens at 8:29 PM on February 10, 2016

Parking lot camping is not camping on the outskirts.

So Michele has no illusions that the 62K listeners are supporters, but I think Gavin absolutely does.
posted by mochapickle at 8:29 PM on February 10, 2016

No-one's believing your bullshit, Gavin.
posted by benito.strauss at 8:30 PM on February 10, 2016

I support them in the sense that I'm hoping they don't die.
posted by ryanrs at 8:31 PM on February 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Mandatory mental health screenings???
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:33 PM on February 10, 2016

Guy is going on a rant about mental health screening. You think?
posted by Dip Flash at 8:33 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yeah that will solve things...parents take kids video games away!
posted by Jalliah at 8:34 PM on February 10, 2016

Sorry, I won't feel bad about any of this if they get killed. They brought all this on themselves and had multiple chances to walk away. If they die, it's entirely of their own choosing. It'll be sad, but in the same way that a single car drunk driving death is sad.

If they take any agents with them, that's something else entirely.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:34 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Video games?!?!?!?!
posted by benito.strauss at 8:34 PM on February 10, 2016

...This is about common core now?
posted by bluecore at 8:35 PM on February 10, 2016

Obamacare - they went there
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:35 PM on February 10, 2016

Mandatory mental health screenings???

I think that was in reference to getting a gun.
posted by Jalliah at 8:35 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's a call-in show now? Armed radio is best radio? And I thought it was a fallow market.
posted by valkane at 8:36 PM on February 10, 2016

Sean is grasping for a reason his son doesn't like him: video games.
posted by RedEmma at 8:37 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Gavin: All of us are weak!

I have no idea how he thinks that is supposed to help.
posted by mochapickle at 8:38 PM on February 10, 2016

Yep we had Obama taking guns, Obamacare, schools not teaching proper things, kids don't care and only play video games, charter schools, homeschooling against the law and common core - bad.
posted by Jalliah at 8:38 PM on February 10, 2016

Fiore sounds like she's getting a bit testy with Sandy.
posted by Jalliah at 8:39 PM on February 10, 2016

Is this the GOP primary thread?
posted by Artw at 8:39 PM on February 10, 2016 [16 favorites]

Everybody forgets Jeff
posted by achrise at 8:40 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think the previous talking points were working better.
- they can't shoot you with 60k people watching
- if you die, everyone will forget you and it will all be for nothing
- if you go to jail, we'll get you right out and the media attention will be incredible
- I'll walk you out (over the phone)
posted by ctmf at 8:40 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

They have snacks.
posted by peeedro at 8:40 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Michelle asks if they had dinner... Sean: "We've got some snacks."
posted by RedEmma at 8:40 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

what is the phone beeping noise, like a call waiting noise? whose phone is beeping?

Have you eaten dinner? no, but we've lubed up.
posted by marienbad at 8:41 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

They have snacks!
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:41 PM on February 10, 2016

Sean has the skills required to fuck this up. I hope he doesn't.
posted by benito.strauss at 8:41 PM on February 10, 2016

Jesus god, this is the country that sent people to the moon. Please vote for better education for our children and safety nets for our folks who can't make due to avoid embarrassing situations like this in the future.
posted by valkane at 8:41 PM on February 10, 2016 [11 favorites]

Sandy needs to be voted off the refuge
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:41 PM on February 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Michelle offers to pick them up a McDonalds
posted by RedEmma at 8:43 PM on February 10, 2016

Michelle, shut the fuck up, I'm trying to hear them think through their plan.
posted by ctmf at 8:44 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Are they asking if Fiore will pick up a big mac for them on the way over? they're lovin' it!
posted by marienbad at 8:44 PM on February 10, 2016

Really??? Not even In & Out? Just crappy McD ?? Worst. Takeover. Ever !
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:44 PM on February 10, 2016

Pedro?
posted by mochapickle at 8:45 PM on February 10, 2016

But, Egg McMuffin!
posted by valkane at 8:45 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think Fiore's pretty good at this de-escalation. She's still partially responsible for all this, but she's good at this.
posted by benito.strauss at 8:45 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

WHO IS PEDRO?
posted by gc at 8:46 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Pedro" pranking them.
posted by dhens at 8:46 PM on February 10, 2016

Go Sean...he's convincing himself that God doesn't want him to die and maybe t's a sign.
posted by Jalliah at 8:46 PM on February 10, 2016

OMG - they just got trolled by someone
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:46 PM on February 10, 2016

Goddamn it Pedro. Now they're discussing the most important part, off the air.
posted by ctmf at 8:46 PM on February 10, 2016

Why the hell would radio dude try to let another phone call in, especially after the singing fiasco!!!
posted by Jalliah at 8:47 PM on February 10, 2016

This wouldn't have happened if Trump were President
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:48 PM on February 10, 2016

Everybody forgets Jeff

Dullest sitcom ever.
posted by msalt at 8:49 PM on February 10, 2016 [10 favorites]

Okay I guess I don't understand how incoming calls would screw up the other call. The tech is beyond me.
posted by Jalliah at 8:49 PM on February 10, 2016

The appeal is in the negative space created by the absence of Jeff in the group's consciousness.
posted by achrise at 8:51 PM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

trolls for the win then in this case
posted by AGameOfMoans at 8:52 PM on February 10, 2016

If He didn't want us here, he would have made us uncomfortable? You mean like having to stand up on a rubber mat with a shitty propane heater until morning?
posted by ctmf at 8:53 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well that's some logic. -we had eggs for breakfast, in was good, that's why I know God wants us here, if he didn't we wouldn't be comfortable.
posted by Jalliah at 8:53 PM on February 10, 2016

Am I correct in understanding that the FBI has agreed to wait til morning now? Is that confirmed?
posted by Thorzdad at 8:54 PM on February 10, 2016

Sounds like Sandy still has a little vodka on hand.
posted by valkane at 8:54 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Four *think* that's what's been agreed to... Sandy is reluctant to accept but says she's agreed under pressure from the men.
posted by RedEmma at 8:55 PM on February 10, 2016

I don't know how much more of this dipshit Gavin I can take.
posted by bluecore at 8:55 PM on February 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

Man, it's nearly 5am here, so I need to get some sleep, which means I will miss the triumphal exit with Fiore leading them out on a donkey as people lay palm leaves in their path, or something like that.
posted by marienbad at 8:55 PM on February 10, 2016

Am I bad for thinking that if anyone's life should be at risk it should be Gavin?
posted by benito.strauss at 8:56 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Light of day. Unjustice. Etc.
posted by valkane at 8:57 PM on February 10, 2016

Who is this guy?
posted by valkane at 8:58 PM on February 10, 2016

Gah dumb ass. Shut up. Don't bring up Lavoy and get the going again.
posted by Jalliah at 8:59 PM on February 10, 2016

oh. ok.
posted by valkane at 9:00 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't know how much more of this dipshit Gavin I can take.

I quit long ago. Can't stand any of them. Bellowing bozos. Just following here.

(and playing xcom. nyaaah!)
posted by Trochanter at 9:01 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Opera Chicken Films. This guy is like a marketing dude?
posted by valkane at 9:03 PM on February 10, 2016

Sandy accepts going to jail now. Progress.
posted by ctmf at 9:03 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yeah, I'm off too. I'm about to start wishing serious harm on ol' Gav' and it's better to just disconnect. I hope everyone gets through the night safely.
posted by benito.strauss at 9:04 PM on February 10, 2016

At least for now Sandy is finally resigning herself that she's going to jail. Gavin's God, lots of people were persecuted in the Bible, talk appears to be working.
posted by Jalliah at 9:04 PM on February 10, 2016

Its kind of enlightening that the situation didn't begin to resolve until Fiore got disconnected from the pipeline
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:06 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

I wouldn't let her cut my hair.
posted by valkane at 9:06 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yeah, Fiore is more palatable than Gavin. Gavin is a real yahoo.
posted by readery at 9:06 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yeah, Fiore is more palatable than Gavin. Gavin is a real yahoo.

That's like saying pond scum is more palatable than faeces.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:09 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Gavin's into everything. He does creepy portraits by day, and by night he and his brother write absolutely terrible fiction.
posted by mochapickle at 9:10 PM on February 10, 2016

Alright. Looks like it's going to just more of the same 'we're saving America rah rah' over and over until the morning.

I should get some sleep.
posted by Jalliah at 9:10 PM on February 10, 2016

Goodnight, all. I'll see you in the morning.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 9:11 PM on February 10, 2016

Yeah, turning in, too. Relieved they're alive and have come to some kind of terms.
posted by mochapickle at 9:12 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh, we'll be here, watching out for america, while all you metas go to sleep, under the comforter provided by us that stand on that blue wall, we will be steadfast in our appetite for unbelievable stupidity in the world, and we will be here, logging it, recording it, sharpening the point so that it....Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
posted by valkane at 9:15 PM on February 10, 2016 [11 favorites]

I have never pitied a prison guard in my life, but holy christ I wouldn't want to have to be in charge of dealing with Sandy during her prison sojourn.
posted by RedEmma at 9:16 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

It is going to be really hard for the militants to stay awake all night. All that intense emotional energy and now the pressure has let up a bit.
posted by humanfont at 9:17 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

I really hope this ends peacefully in the morning. But I also wonder if the FBI is going to try and bag these criminals in the early morning when they all finally conk out from exhaustion.
posted by RakDaddy at 9:20 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

serious talk.
posted by valkane at 9:21 PM on February 10, 2016

yeah! sean is gonna do it! lets do it sean! give up!
posted by valkane at 9:22 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't know why the FBI would do that unless they don't come out. Don't lose anything by waiting another day if they have to.
posted by ctmf at 9:23 PM on February 10, 2016

FBI script.
posted by valkane at 9:24 PM on February 10, 2016

Go home Assemblywoman Fiore, you're drunk
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:24 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

‏@judylthomas
Sean: "My wife lost her job now, I'm sure, because she didn't go back to it. We have bills to pay..."


You just don't get it. You're starting a whole new life, friend.
posted by Trochanter at 9:24 PM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Also, I'm betting Trump/Fiore.
posted by RakDaddy at 9:25 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

She's gonna pull it off.
posted by valkane at 9:27 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

If I were writing this as a script, they would all hang up now, and in the morning, we'd have some glorious footage of Fiore walking these losers outta hell with nice sunshine lighting.

But, Gavin has to play his audio file.
posted by valkane at 9:33 PM on February 10, 2016

You hang up, no, you hang up.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:36 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Oh lordy, Fiore is back.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:36 PM on February 10, 2016

The cell reception is very good in the Harney Basin. There is a forest of cell towers on nearby Steens Mountain at about 9700 feet and the Harney Basin is a nearly flat area at about 4000 feet. There is a direct line of sight from the cell towers to the refuge.
posted by JackFlash at 9:36 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

I can't imagine Fiore will make it to the refuge. I hope for the best for everyone. They need a blankie and a story. Body armor for everyone else.
posted by Oyéah at 9:37 PM on February 10, 2016

Fiore: "I have spoken to the FBI. They have given us their word that they will stand down tonight. In the morning when you come out, me and Graham will meet you at that point. They have promised...we'll put it out on national news...I have an iphone".
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:37 PM on February 10, 2016

Apple commercial. Fuck android.
posted by valkane at 9:37 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Apple commercial. Fuck android.

I doubt Tim Cook is happy about these troglodytes talking about how much they love iphones.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:39 PM on February 10, 2016

Hahha Ha! You know Fry has an android.
posted by valkane at 9:40 PM on February 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

Fiore flew to PDX and then is driving to Burns. Her home is Carson City NV. Carson City to Burns is a 6 hour drive. Pdx to Burns is a 5 1.2 hour drive.
posted by humanfont at 9:42 PM on February 10, 2016 [26 favorites]

The FBI should take them in their sleep before Fiore gets there. If they can assure all 4 are down, move in and end it. Fiore has done some admirable work here talking them down from the ledge in a (batshit) language they can understand, but introducing her into the actual standoff represents an crazy risk that the FBI should not take.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:42 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Ugh christian pop. I'm out. Sleep well, y'all.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:43 PM on February 10, 2016

I loved that movie. Cold Mountain.
posted by valkane at 9:43 PM on February 10, 2016

I was not expecting today's developments.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 9:43 PM on February 10, 2016

If the FBI had played that damn song continually at high volume on day 1 this would have been over by day 3.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 9:43 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Awkward.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 9:46 PM on February 10, 2016

The FBI should take them in their sleep before Fiore gets there.

I'm usually with you, but I think in this instance, even if it means giving stupid people more power, saving lives is a good thing. You know? I just don't want to see these people die because of the Bundy's. They don't deserve it. They are just not that smart. But hey, that's just my compassion speaking.
posted by valkane at 9:49 PM on February 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

Do they know the buildings are taken?
posted by Trochanter at 9:54 PM on February 10, 2016

Gavin and Michele figuring out how they stay famous is kinda gross, no?
posted by valkane at 9:54 PM on February 10, 2016

I hope the FBI does get them out tonight, by helicopter. Shut it all down, be ready for who really shows up tomorrow.
posted by Oyéah at 9:55 PM on February 10, 2016

"Time to mute the livestream. I can handle bat shit crazy. I draw the line at shofars and Sharpies. " --jj macnab
posted by valkane at 9:56 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Minotaurs and harpies.
posted by Oyéah at 9:58 PM on February 10, 2016

Whatever they pay these FBI agents, it isn't enough.
posted by Oyéah at 10:42 PM on February 10, 2016

Cliven Bundy just landed at PDX and was 'detained' by police per this supporter who's here to escort him.
posted by Vibrissa at 10:53 PM on February 10, 2016 [9 favorites]

I am having a giggle meltdown at this news. May every word be true!
posted by mochapickle at 11:02 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yeah, that's what I'm talkin' about!
posted by Oyéah at 11:04 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

KATU news is reporting confirmed!
posted by mochapickle at 11:06 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Detained but not necessarily arrested.

On preview: Oh. Well, let's see what the cops say.
posted by maudlin at 11:07 PM on February 10, 2016

KATU reporting that heavily dressed SWAT guys were waiting for Papa Bundy at the gate when he landed. They're not sure if arrested or just detained. Had taken flight from Las Vegas. In Las Vegas, TSA did extra checks to see if he was armed.
posted by mochapickle at 11:08 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

I hope they never let Cliven go.
posted by Oyéah at 11:08 PM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Also, KATU used one of the bonkers gun-totin' photos of Fiore in their developing story.

And breaking: Confirmed Cliven has been booked! Though no confirmation on which charges yet.
posted by mochapickle at 11:10 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yep, arrested and booked into the local jail.

(What do you bet Gavin/Fiore make sure the marshland morons get to hear about this ASAP? So much for peacefully giving up in the morning now.)
posted by maudlin at 11:11 PM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yes, Ryan Payne's jailhouse discussions of snipers on the ranch, long stay material.
posted by Oyéah at 11:12 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well, hey, he came to Oregon to visit his kids, the police are just helping him with that.
posted by tavella at 11:17 PM on February 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

Jeebus! I go to work for a few hours and I come back to nearly 600 new comments in this thread. And it STILL isn't actually resolved???
posted by hippybear at 11:19 PM on February 10, 2016 [6 favorites]

I hope they stop Fiore along the way to make sure she doesn't have a carfulla guns.
posted by Oyéah at 11:20 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

A special smorgasboard of charges for Pa Bundy.
posted by Oyéah at 11:22 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]

Les Zaitz confirms charges are for 2014 standoff
posted by mochapickle at 11:22 PM on February 10, 2016 [7 favorites]

I love it the TSA made sure he was unarmed. Sublime.
posted by Oyéah at 11:25 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

I just turned into the live stream. They're yelling at the FBI or at each other? I think I hear a megaphone.
posted by maudlin at 11:26 PM on February 10, 2016

Ha ha.

Well, I guess he burst his own bubble of immunity from consequence. I'm almost as surprised as he must he that he's managed to do that.
posted by Artw at 11:26 PM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]

Is the live stream live again? Link?
posted by mochapickle at 11:27 PM on February 10, 2016

Live stream.
posted by maudlin at 11:28 PM on February 10, 2016

(No, wait -- sorry, I think that's the archived broadcast, not live. Disregard.)
posted by maudlin at 11:29 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]

Les Zaitz confirms charges are for 2014 standoff

The mills of God grind slow, but they grind fine.
posted by Going To Maine at 11:35 PM on February 10, 2016 [11 favorites]

Maybe this would be a good time to swing back through and round up his cattle too.
posted by EatTheWeek at 11:39 PM on February 10, 2016 [8 favorites]

Damn. The Bundys are having a bad month. If Cliven seriously thought that he could sacrifice a son to make some political noise, how could he not think that the feds might push back? There's a difference between letting a few cattle graze on BLM land and organizing a group of armed loonies to start a revolution.
posted by rdr at 11:44 PM on February 10, 2016

Imagine how cocky you have to be to be Clive Bundy and be purchasing a plane ticket to go to Oregon. Why not withdraw a bunch of cash and take back highways all the way up across Nevada? Malheur is nearly IN northern Nevada. Did he seriously believe that he would just be allowed to saunter away of the car rental counter to go visit his boys or go to the refuge?
posted by hippybear at 11:54 PM on February 10, 2016 [11 favorites]

Why wouldn't he feel above the law? That's how he's been treated up until now.
posted by EatTheWeek at 11:57 PM on February 10, 2016 [15 favorites]

He really did think that he'd have an army tomorrow, roll out to the refuge, and no one would move a muscle. I was worrying he was with Fiore. Period of ego deflation coming right up. He won't need money, anymore, cows or guns.
posted by Oyéah at 12:00 AM on February 11, 2016

Is Cliven also a sovereign citizen? Or is his particular flavor of woo different?
posted by Going To Maine at 12:01 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Er, by “flavor of woo” I mean “set of esoteric and fantastical beliefs about the operation of law”. People can believe whatever they want to believe.
posted by Going To Maine at 12:02 AM on February 11, 2016

Brutal patriarchy, bleeding the beast that is government, a sense of cultural/religious entitlement. Believing whatever he wants, he has stolen from the people of the US. and threatened the lives of federal officers, charged with remedy of the situation. This week he attempted to incite violence at the refuge.
posted by Oyéah at 12:11 AM on February 11, 2016

I'm guessing that the gang at the refuge is asleep, and has no idea that Cliven has been arrested.
posted by hippybear at 12:14 AM on February 11, 2016

Is Cliven also a sovereign citizen?

Yes, and a bit of a religious loon as well. Clearly Ammon is a chip of the old block.

I didn't follow the 2014 standoff, but I'm not suprised to see that Cliven is also a totes cray cray racist:

“I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro” he said. Mr. Bundy recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas, “and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids — and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch — they didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for their young girls to do.

“And because they were basically on government subsidy, so now what do they do?” he asked. “They abort their young children, they put their young men in jail, because they never learned how to pick cotton. And I’ve often wondered, are they better off as slaves, picking cotton and having a family life and doing things, or are they better off under government subsidy? They didn’t get no more freedom. They got less freedom.”

posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 12:21 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

I hope the four find enough value in living their lives, they don't choose martyrdom in the morning to feel more important. I hope they cut all communications outside the immediate situation, and get those four extrovertedly sad people safe, and out of there. I will meditate for peace to come to them. WOO!
posted by Oyéah at 12:31 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

His thoughts were red thoughts: "the Negro"

Does anyone who isn't a raging racist use this phrase?
posted by Mitheral at 12:39 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

No
posted by johnpowell at 2:31 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

The government gets Bundy alive and without incident by exploiting its ability to wait for the right time and place.
posted by humanfont at 3:06 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

The Washington Post:
“Michele Fiore, the gun-toting, calendar-posing politician who negotiated the Ore. occupiers' surrender”
posted by blueberry at 3:19 AM on February 11, 2016

And here I was thinking that it was the armored vehicles that had prompted the promise of surrender.
posted by rdr at 3:32 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

From the link: "She always harbored higher aspirations, however, and in 2005 she wrote, produced and starred in a movie called “Siren” about a humble housewife who tries to make it as a singer."

“In the role she wrote for herself, Fiore-Kaime, portrays Storm Fagan, a wife and mother who endures the slings and arrows of music industry skeptics to follow her dreams of rock stardom — Fiore-Kaime’s real childhood dream,” the Los Angeles Times wrote, using Fiore’s former last name.

Watch out, Neil Breen.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 3:36 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Ensuring Cliven Bundy was unarmed might be the most effective antiterrorism action the TSA has engaged in.
posted by TedW at 4:07 AM on February 11, 2016 [17 favorites]

Better watch out, Fiore might Double Down. (TM) Neil Breen
posted by Yowser at 4:08 AM on February 11, 2016

That Cliven racist stuff is straight out of the other writings of Skousen, the Mormon who wrote the annotated Constitution they all carry in their shirt pockets, which made them think the Federal government can't own land, setting them down this idiotic path.

I'm curious what happens when the final four hear the news about Cliven getting arrested. I suspect the reason they so quickly moved from "fight to the death!" to being willing to give themselves up is they knew Cliven was coming and thought he'd arrive with an army to escort them out/ counter-barricade the FBI/ whatever. So the 8am thing was just a delaying action to buy themselves more time. That's why David suddenly got quiet, while Sandy and Sean tried to at least act the part. I hope Fiore or dipshit Gavin don't inform them of the arrest and just let them walk down to the barricade thinking they'll still get rescued.

Glad Cliven got arrested. He even was kind enough to fly commercial, so he self-disarmed- ha!
posted by bluecore at 4:08 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Also I'm not amused by Fiore interfering with federal officials(the negotiator(s), etc). She's banking on political repercussions for jailing her, but honestly, that's where she belongs.
posted by Yowser at 4:10 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

"I suspect the reason they so quickly moved from "fight to the death!" to being willing to give themselves up is they knew Cliven was coming and thought he'd arrive with an army to escort them out/ counter-barricade the FBI/ whatever."

There's nothing in these yahoos' past behavior that makes me think they would behave that strategically. I don't think they're capable of playing anything close to the vest.
posted by Bugbread at 4:28 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Franklin Graham is enroute as of 3 minutes ago.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 4:49 AM on February 11, 2016

...in 2005 she wrote, produced and starred in a movie called “Siren” about a humble housewife who tries to make it as a singer....
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:36 AM on February 11

SUFFERING CHRIST THEY WEREN'T KIDDING OH MY GOD SOMEONE GET THE MST3K GUYS ON THE PHONE

Siren (The Movie) - Trailer

Dreams only die when we let them go

Storm Fagan seems like an ordinary middle-aged wife and mother, except her dream of being a rock star still weighs heavy on her soul. Twenty years earlier she was going to be the next big thing, but love and life took her on a different path. Returning to her dream, Storm follows her heart and finds the world of rock-n-roll an unforgiving and vain place. Storm sheds her inhibitions and 35 pounds, resolving to form her own band and put her ambition into overdrive.

It would seem the whole world, including her husband Jay (Gary Graham, Alien Nation, Star Trek, JAG) and one particular music agent, Sharon Cox (Erin Gray, Buck Rogers in the 25th Century, Silver Spoons) believe that Storm has simply lost her mind. On the journey of leaving her ordinary life behind, Storm risks everything including her marriage to pursue the impossible dream.

Who says your dreams can't become your reality?

Oh Lord poor Erin Gray. And this part just broke my heart:

Special Guest Appearance By
ANTHONY GOURDINE
(Of Little Anthony and the Imperials)

(My dad was a fan)

Anyway...glad this foolishness is wrapping up. I hope Cliven Bundy is sent an invoice for all the expenses the FBI incurred while they dealt with this stupidity.
posted by magstheaxe at 5:03 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

watching video, reading blurb

It would seem the whole world,.. believe that Michele has simply lost her mind.
posted by mikelieman at 5:08 AM on February 11, 2016

Here is to hoping the pastor can make the handcuffs made out of dildos for comfort.
posted by johnpowell at 5:09 AM on February 11, 2016

Note: Not this Siren (2010)
posted by mikelieman at 5:09 AM on February 11, 2016

Does anyone who isn't a raging racist use this phrase?

It definitely tells you when that person's racial opinions were ossified.

“I want to tell you one more thing I know about the Negro” he said. Mr. Bundy recalled driving past a public-housing project in North Las Vegas, “and in front of that government house the door was usually open and the older people and the kids — and there is always at least a half a dozen people sitting on the porch — they didn’t have nothing to do. They didn’t have nothing for their kids to do. They didn’t have nothing for their young girls to do.

That is weirdly close to word-for-word what an elderly relative told me after seeing low-income housing for the first time in the 1980s and being equally amazed by seeing black people in public. The language and the fake puzzlement is straight out of the early 1960s; it was embarrassing enough hearing it in the 1980s but for someone to still be talking that way today is like a time warp. Back then this would have counted as coded language (like "good schools" today), but it stopped being coded and became openly racist decades ago.

I was glad to wake up to the report of Bundy's arrest and that no violence had occurred in the night. I'm sorry that Fiore is going to get more attention, but if that is the price for ending things peacefully I am ok with that. Is there a way to calculate what these four doofuses alone have cost taxpayers in terms of law enforcement response? It has to be astronomical.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:22 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Based on an Original Story and Concept by
MICHELE FIORE-KAIME

where on archive of our own do i find this story i keep looking at the gem fics but nothing
this is truly outrageous
posted by robocop is bleeding at 5:41 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Cliven Bundy just landed at PDX and was 'detained' by police per this supporter who's here to escort him

🎆 ♪♫ ... and that's the waaay they detained the Bundy Bunch ... ♫♪ 🎆
posted by octobersurprise at 6:04 AM on February 11, 2016 [24 favorites]

"Hurricane Sandy" has posted a few minutes ago on Sean's FB page:

Good morning this is Hurricane Sandy. My FB account is down so I am using my best friend and husband Sean's account. It's a VERY sad day for me as we plan to turn ourselves over to the very people we fought so hard against. The torch was handed to us and we must pass it onto you now. It is up to you to keep it lit or let it burn out. I pray we can all live with your decision and may God bless us all!!!!!!!
posted by RedEmma at 6:09 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'll bet a shiny new dime Sandy freaks-out one more time before she's in custody. As for Fry...I picture him as nearly comatose in fear, balled-up in a quaking fetal position as he's carried out.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:16 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Considering that the major tactic used by the militants here has been to delay, delay,delay ("I don't wanna go to bed! prison!") I think there's a fair chance that they will now refuse to leave until Cliven is released - which will be bad for everyone today.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:16 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Well at least she seems to have finally accepted the inevitable. She was back and forth a few times last night.
posted by Jalliah at 6:17 AM on February 11, 2016

Video Live Feed at KGW
posted by RedEmma at 6:45 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

(Nothing's happening)
posted by RedEmma at 6:46 AM on February 11, 2016

On thoe front web page of the NYT this morning: "Pee-Wee's Big Comeback" about the new Paul Reubens movie but not a word about what's happening this morning in Malheur. One of us definitely has their priorities wrong.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:48 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Maureen Peltier on Facebeek:

"Simultaneously Jonathon Skipper Speece (Bundy's current head security) was with Jason Blomgren (Joker Jay) both were stopped and detained in a Walmart parking lot, Joker J was arrested under unknown charges. Jonathan was question & released.

Having watched a few of Joker J's videos it wouldn't surprise me to learn that one of those charges included being high as fuck. According to Speece "They ram sacked my car. They even ate my burger from Jack in the Box."

("Those are good burgers, Walter. Shut the fuck up, Donnie.")
posted by octobersurprise at 6:48 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I really hope the FBI rolled in and took them while they were crashed and while the live stream wasn't running and we just haven't been told yet. It would be awesome if Fiore and Graham get there and it's all over but the mopping up.

Letting them walk out with Graham and Fiore by their sides strikes me as penny wise, pound foolish and I don't believe the FBI will actually let that happen.
posted by spitbull at 6:51 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well, IIRC, the way Sean left it last night, he said they'd lay down their guns, and walk to the checkpoint carrying only American flags to meet Michele.
posted by valkane at 6:54 AM on February 11, 2016

Man, Dave Fry has this KGW8 guy beat at handling a live feed.
posted by valkane at 6:55 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I have a hard time believing they'd let Fiore in there, at least. She's a proven sympathizer and just unhinged enough to go into the camp and then turn-around and declare the camp sovereign territory or something. If the FBI knows what's good for them, they won't allow any photo ops, like carrying flags, either.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:56 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

All this talk about "Metafilter is a community," and "we care about each other," and "I'll buy you a beer," and not one of you fucking chuckleheads got in touch to let me know this was all going down last night. We didn't do each other wrong like this back in the days of the old longboats! gnifti, cortex, cranberry, where are my people at?!?
posted by OmieWise at 6:57 AM on February 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

no beer for you!
posted by AGameOfMoans at 6:58 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Guy just hijacked KGW's frame.
posted by valkane at 7:04 AM on February 11, 2016

On thoe front web page of the NYT this morning: "Pee-Wee's Big Comeback" about the new Paul Reubens movie but not a word about what's happening this morning in Malheur. One of us definitely has their priorities wrong.

The Times website changes. The Malheur story was in the left column on the front page as the situation was developing overnight, and there is still a link to the story on the front page. Nothing has happened in a while, and I'm sure if something newsworthy does happen it'll be given more prominent real estate. And yes, a news organization such as the Times is capable of covering more than one story at a time.
posted by ultraviolet catastrophe at 7:09 AM on February 11, 2016

50 minutes to go!
posted by Talez at 7:10 AM on February 11, 2016

I get that letting Fiore and Graham walk them out costs us nothing and gets this over with peacefully, but I wonder how the FBI will handle those two's inevitable dipshit demands-- livestreaming the "rescue", cameras, posing with them before they're cuffed, etc-- things that are just to vault them on to the national stage but aren't actually necessary to end this.

You know Fiore will be full of herself and stunned they don't recognize her legislative authority. I probably shouldn't be a hostage negotiator, as I'd let her drive all the way to the refuge and then tell her to fuck off.
posted by bluecore at 7:11 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

"You can be on camera, sure, but you have to run five miles beforehand."
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:13 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

This is going to be like that scene from An Officer and a Gentlemen, right?
posted by Talez at 7:15 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

I probably shouldn't be a hostage negotiator, as I'd let her drive all the way to the refuge and then tell her to fuck off.

Fiore hasn't done anything criminal, has she? Any outstanding warrants on her? This whole thing has gotten the feeling of actually being an FBI honey pot, the way it's lured people into being arrested.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:16 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Fiore has nothing on Franklin Graham. One of my sisters has been fascinated with the Graham family dynamics for a while. the family is in the midst of lawsuits while Franklin has taken over his 97 year old father's empire, driving it further and further to the demented right. He's just coming off an anti-gay rally.

He wants to be the player his father was. But in the new neo fascist America.
posted by readery at 7:17 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Sean (on FB): "Michelle Fiora Said FBI isn't being nice to her"
posted by RedEmma at 7:17 AM on February 11, 2016

Link to these folks' FB pages?
posted by dhens at 7:19 AM on February 11, 2016

This is going to be like that scene from An Officer and a Gentlemen, right?

I keep imagining it being like the ending to The Devil's Rejects.
posted by valkane at 7:20 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

She's doing the same thing the militants try to do all the time: assert their own reality by repeating it over and over. Instead of trying to assert stuff about flag fringes and capital letters, Fiore's assertion is "I am an important part of this surrender." and the FBI is having none of it.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:21 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I wonder if Fiore is insisting on being armed?
posted by readery at 7:22 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Also, Cliven Mug Shot. That star graphic makes him look like he's playing sheriff!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:22 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

...but not a word about what's happening this morning in Malheur.

I'm surprised it's not being paid more attention. I'll be following here for hours, thinking it's the most important thing going (not to mention riveting and very compelling) and yet, when I check, there's my twitter feed just carrying on as normal.
posted by Trochanter at 7:24 AM on February 11, 2016

KGW8 guy just checked his Snapchat.
posted by valkane at 7:24 AM on February 11, 2016

Fiore hasn't done anything criminal, has she? Any outstanding warrants on her? This whole thing has gotten the feeling of actually being an FBI honey pot, the way it's lured people into being arrested.

That's the wonderful thing about conspiracy charges. If you want to help the group you're part of the conspiracy. Every stupid fucker trying to put their name on this without being at the actual refuge still needs to be arrested, charged and put on trial as part of the conspiracy.
posted by Talez at 7:24 AM on February 11, 2016

Sean Anderson's FB Page
posted by RedEmma at 7:27 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I read today that David Fry (or someone else) has shut down his FB and Sandy's is also shut down.
posted by RedEmma at 7:28 AM on February 11, 2016

Well I found Sean Anderson's FB page and it looks like they know that Cliven Bundy was arrested.

on preview: jinx, RedEmma
posted by dhens at 7:28 AM on February 11, 2016

These "pros" have no idea as to how to work a live stream.
posted by valkane at 7:29 AM on February 11, 2016

Thank goodness I'm allowed to use my phone at work to listen to "music".

>
posted by Jalliah at 7:30 AM on February 11, 2016

In a single five course meal, describe how you feel about the militant occupation.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:32 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Fiore also worked out a deal that had her walking them out with American flags. With an audience. Now the FBI is not being nice to her, as she readies for the photo op of a lifetime.

I really feel for the FBI. They have some heavily armed people that have proved time and time again to be unhinged. This could all go so very bad.
posted by readery at 7:34 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

That reminds me, I wonder if Fiore brought Fry & Co. McDonalds like she promised.
posted by valkane at 7:34 AM on February 11, 2016

I highly recommend Fiore's twitter feed, btw. It has an unmistakable bouquet of Pam Anderson in Barb Wire.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:38 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Sean on FB: "We need prayers"
posted by RedEmma at 7:38 AM on February 11, 2016

It has an unmistakable bouquet of Pam Anderson in Barb Wire.

Do you mean awesome?!?
posted by OmieWise at 7:40 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Sean on FB: "We need prayers"

I pray that you people live just long enough in prison to realize what complete nutjobs you've been.
posted by Archelaus at 7:42 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I probably shouldn't be a hostage negotiator, as I'd let her drive all the way to the refuge and then tell her to fuck off.

Eh. I mean, despite what the Bundy chuckleheads claim, it's still a free country - without some sort of proof that she's done something actually criminal she can fly wherever she wants and drive wherever she wants and tweet or FB or livestream whatever she wants, and law enforcement doesn't have the authority to stop her. Right up until she shows up at the barricade, where they do have authority because "ongoing crisis negotiation situation." Having her come all the way to the refuge and then being told to fuck off (which appears to be what is happening?) would just be LEO recognizing the limits of their authority. Plus maybe not really giving a shit what kind of self-publicity some grandstanding Nevada minor politician thinks she can wring out of the situation.

I guess now is when we find out if her performance last night was all her or whether she was being coached/encouraged by the FBI.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:43 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Do you mean awesome?!?

For some value of "awesome," yeah.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:47 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

She was being coached by Bundy's lawyer Mike Arnold who drove her across the state. He's attempting to spin the 'peaceful protest'. It is in Ammon's best interest that there is no more bloodshed.
posted by readery at 7:48 AM on February 11, 2016

Gavin's got them on the phone
posted by RedEmma at 7:48 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sean is telling Gavin that there are "a thousand people" coming to save them.
posted by RedEmma at 7:49 AM on February 11, 2016

soundguy99: Right up until she shows up at the barricade, where they do have authority...

Maybe you misunderstood what I said, but we basically said the same thing. I was just talking about wasting her time since she's self-promotional and only doing this to help Ammon Bundy, as he'll catch more charges if they kill an agent, and help herself to some more publicity.
posted by bluecore at 7:49 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

A thousand people there? Here's how I hope the FBI ends the standoff.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:50 AM on February 11, 2016

Gavin has changed his tune, and trying to calm Sean down, who seems pretty upset about Cliven Bundy's arrest
posted by RedEmma at 7:52 AM on February 11, 2016

Talez: This is going to be like that scene from An Officer and a Gentlemen, right?

I was thinking more like the end of "Taps," [SLYT] to be honest.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:53 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm 90% sure they think they're walking out with Michele.
posted by Talez at 7:54 AM on February 11, 2016

Not like walking out of the refuge but walking out of the checkpoint with her without being arrested.
posted by Talez at 7:54 AM on February 11, 2016

Sean says he and Sandy will "go out holding hands and a flag if they let us, which they probably won't"... is concerned that they are "being mean" to Michelle.
posted by RedEmma at 7:54 AM on February 11, 2016

crying prayers, sean & sandy plan to go out together holding hands and a flag, sean says he can get plenty of sleep on the drive to portland
posted by nadawi at 7:55 AM on February 11, 2016

Michelle is getting in the car with the FBI, she's wearing a blue coat
posted by RedEmma at 7:55 AM on February 11, 2016

Sean is telling Gavin that there are "a thousand people" coming to save them.

That doesn't sound like someone who's intending to surrender any time soon.
posted by Thorzdad at 7:55 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I was thinking more like the end of "Taps," [SLYT] to be honest.

Jesus, I hope not.
posted by OmieWise at 7:55 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Gavin: "Michelle, don't let them take your phone!"

Gavin with his eye on the prize.
posted by bluecore at 7:55 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

What are the chances of Michele being arrested with those chuckleheads?
posted by Talez at 7:56 AM on February 11, 2016

Gavin is very concerned that he'll miss his feed if Michelle hangs up, or they take her phone... this is his moment.
posted by RedEmma at 7:56 AM on February 11, 2016

Oh this isn't looking good, Death has shown up for Fry.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:57 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sean wonders why we all thought they'd change their minds because of Clive... duh.
posted by RedEmma at 7:58 AM on February 11, 2016

Michelle encouraging them to move to the "new battlefield"... i.e. jail/courts.

Gavin encouraging them to follow through, with god's help
posted by RedEmma at 7:59 AM on February 11, 2016

sean keeps saying he's not sure what god wants him to do

gavin and michelle trying to convince him to keep his word and "lead by example"
posted by nadawi at 7:59 AM on February 11, 2016

Michelle: Let's all stay calm and lead by example...
posted by RedEmma at 7:59 AM on February 11, 2016

I'm more concerned by Fry's silence.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:00 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sean is panicking a bit, but Michelle is encouraging them... Sandy doesn't trust them either.
posted by RedEmma at 8:01 AM on February 11, 2016

oh fuck. sean, "maybe they'll make that decision for me" - which doesn't sound good. fiore is trying to convince him the devil might be playing on his mind and to keep praying and keep their word - but also fbi might screw them over. sean becomes agitated at the mention that the fbi might "double cross" them
posted by nadawi at 8:01 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

"we have lavoy finicum's bible"
posted by nadawi at 8:02 AM on February 11, 2016

They're also bringing out LaVoy's bible to give to his widow... FBI agrees...
posted by RedEmma at 8:03 AM on February 11, 2016

fbi has agreed to let them carry out finicum's bible for his widow. now sandy is informing fiore/the fbi that she's walking out with her purse, which doesn't seem like it's going to go well...
posted by nadawi at 8:04 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Michelle again worried about whether they've been eating... Sean: "we've got some snacks."

i swear to god.
posted by RedEmma at 8:05 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Enough with the Psalms already, Gavin.
posted by zakur at 8:05 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't think these people have the guts or the conviction to really try anything. If this ends up going pear shaped it'll be because of something stupid, not because Sean suddenly decides he wants to make a stand.
posted by OmieWise at 8:05 AM on February 11, 2016

Sandy says she saw a cross in the fire this morning. Sean says that he's "seen the light showing a heart" when his flashlight did something weird when he was taking a piss....
posted by RedEmma at 8:06 AM on February 11, 2016

Sandy and Sean seeing signs from God in the campfire and Mag-Light beam.
posted by zakur at 8:06 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

My headphones died and I appreciate the mefi live commentary more than ever. Thank you!
posted by mochapickle at 8:06 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

"we looked into the fire and there was a cross"
while sandy was peeing, sean saw a heart in the middle of his flashlight beam.

these are signs that god is with them. they are not fruitcakes, they are witnessing.
posted by nadawi at 8:06 AM on February 11, 2016

Michelle is meeting with Graham right now..
posted by RedEmma at 8:07 AM on February 11, 2016

They will be driving in together... and "everyone will be staying calm..." (Michelle)
posted by RedEmma at 8:08 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Guardian live stream
posted by Death and Gravity at 8:08 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

(I can't get the feed to work, so I am also grateful for the live comments!)
posted by wenestvedt at 8:09 AM on February 11, 2016

Heh, Just noticed that grauniad.com links to theguardian.com. Very nice.
posted by Death and Gravity at 8:09 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Gavin: "There are always trolls and people who are asleep and oppose liberty."
posted by bluecore at 8:10 AM on February 11, 2016

As a taxpayer in Oregon I am more than happy to pay taxes to keep these people in jail.
posted by johnpowell at 8:11 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Gavin again worried he might be disconnected. The FBI is going to call them on the "FBI phone" they were given.
posted by RedEmma at 8:11 AM on February 11, 2016

by the fbi's request - they're working out the fbi calling them on the phone the fbi gave them. they insist that they keep the line open with fiore/gavin/the live stream.
posted by nadawi at 8:12 AM on February 11, 2016

Sean: Is that place [we're going to] fortified?

Fiore: Wha....? I don't know.
posted by zakur at 8:12 AM on February 11, 2016

gnifti, cortex, cranberry, where are my people at?!?

I was having a cheat beer last night and watching Longmire, and then sleeping. It is my curse.

Anyway, how weird is it that I'm watching a local news affiliate livestream, mostly, a smushed rebroadcast of some dudes Youtube page being screencast from some news station computer.
posted by cortex at 8:13 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Most of me wants to see the FBI treat them like common criminals. But a small part of me wants to see the FBI wrap them in blankets, give them coffee and say, "we were just worried you'd hurt yourself or someone else! See? This was all for nothing..."
posted by charred husk at 8:13 AM on February 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

Tarps!
posted by zombieflanders at 8:13 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Gavin: The Lord is more powerful than all their equipment.
posted by zakur at 8:13 AM on February 11, 2016

zakur, they were trying to establish which checkpoint they were currently at... it was a place they altered or something. Sean is worried about being only "protected by tarps and ... the lord."
posted by RedEmma at 8:13 AM on February 11, 2016

They really think they are walking away from this free people just because a state legislator and a preaching bigot are there?
posted by Seamus at 8:14 AM on February 11, 2016

Sean: our personal guns are in the vehicle, and the other guns in the area are not near us.
posted by RedEmma at 8:14 AM on February 11, 2016

gavin is getting them to say they are unarmed.
posted by nadawi at 8:14 AM on February 11, 2016

They don't think they're walking out free anymore... accepting jail reluctantly.
posted by RedEmma at 8:15 AM on February 11, 2016

Sandy accepting the idea that she won't be allowed to own their guns after being jailed. ... Michelle trying to tell them that she's going to work on their 2nd amendment rights... bleah.
posted by RedEmma at 8:15 AM on February 11, 2016

According to John Sepulvado, it was Fiore who convinced Pop Bundy to fly into PDX.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:16 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

sandy's worried about not owning guns, fiore is talking about legislation, sean and gavin are repeating "shall not be infringed!"
posted by nadawi at 8:16 AM on February 11, 2016

Gosh this radio guy is annoying. My eyes are getting sore from all the rolling.
posted by Jalliah at 8:16 AM on February 11, 2016

2nd amendment rant from all parties. "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED! SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED!"
posted by zakur at 8:16 AM on February 11, 2016

Said livestream staffer at KGW apparently popping over to a blank browser tab for a sec there.
posted by cortex at 8:16 AM on February 11, 2016

Michelle is waiting for Graham to arrive.
posted by RedEmma at 8:17 AM on February 11, 2016

Sean is worried about snipers; Michelle repeats that they must stay alive.
posted by RedEmma at 8:18 AM on February 11, 2016

"A dead man can't talk. We have to stay together, and stay alive"
posted by mountmccabe at 8:18 AM on February 11, 2016

sean asks if the agents are in bullet proof vests. fiore says they're just in regular coats. she again tries to convince them to come out peacefully and alive.
posted by nadawi at 8:18 AM on February 11, 2016

Livestream youtube feed at 11890 people right now.
posted by valkane at 8:19 AM on February 11, 2016

Michelle campaigning... talking about other legislators who are "with them"... eight who are in Burns..
posted by RedEmma at 8:19 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Wait, Franklin isn't even there? After a whole week of grandstanding?
posted by mochapickle at 8:19 AM on February 11, 2016

Sean calls Paul Ryan a "sellout"
posted by zakur at 8:20 AM on February 11, 2016

He's supposedly nearby... Michelle and Franklin are going to escort or meet them together.
posted by RedEmma at 8:20 AM on February 11, 2016

Was that a endorsement of Paul Ryan?
posted by johnpowell at 8:21 AM on February 11, 2016

Gavin: The Lord is more powerful than all their equipment.

If I still spent much time in the data center, that would totally be printed up and pasted to another team's gear.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:21 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Michelle has to hang up, to talk to the FBI.
posted by RedEmma at 8:21 AM on February 11, 2016

Michelle campaigning... talking about other legislators who are "with them"... eight who are in Burns..

Was there some sort of Bird Watching Vacation Groupon pitched to Nevada lawmakers last fall?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:21 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

they're talking about creating a legislative quorum, fiore is talking about the importance of campaigning, "paul ryan is a sellout" from someone.

the fbi says fiore has to hang up to talk to the fbi. sean is worried about that. gavin assures him the world is watching.
posted by nadawi at 8:21 AM on February 11, 2016

Sean is still on the feed with Gavin...
posted by RedEmma at 8:21 AM on February 11, 2016

and Gavin gets his stage to bloviate... stand up sheeple blah. blah.
posted by RedEmma at 8:22 AM on February 11, 2016

people who work for the government have "blood money on their hands."
posted by nadawi at 8:23 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

God, I hate Gavin.
posted by bluecore at 8:23 AM on February 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

Two tacos says this shit will get dragged out for another hour. "We're not reassured! We're not coming out until you meet some other ridiculous command!"

Also: Gavin is from Washington state. There are a lot of state legislature seats coming up. This chucklehead is going to pop up at every single election rally in a red district. Oy.
posted by RakDaddy at 8:23 AM on February 11, 2016

At least Gavin went back to that still photo, watching him talk was actually kinda worse.
posted by valkane at 8:23 AM on February 11, 2016

Going for a morning perambule; hopefully the tendency of this shit to take forever will last for another half hour or so.
posted by cortex at 8:24 AM on February 11, 2016

Gavin showing off his undergraduate degree!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:24 AM on February 11, 2016

"We're not reassured! We're not coming out until you meet some other ridiculous command!"

Nude photos of Bea Arthur are going to be harder than ever to get.
posted by Etrigan at 8:24 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

"IF WHITE PEOPLE CAN'T DO WHAT THEY WANT WHEN THEY WANT WITHOUT CONSEQUENCE THERE'S NO RULE OF LAW!"
posted by Talez at 8:24 AM on February 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

Sean: saying that they will rot in hell for killing LaVoy
posted by RedEmma at 8:24 AM on February 11, 2016

Dear god I can't listen to that nonsense anymore. Thank you metafilter for the mediated feed. I was about to leap down the tubes and whack Gavin and Michelle with a spotting scope.
posted by firstdrop at 8:25 AM on February 11, 2016

Dog bless you folks who are updating us on the live stream. I can only listen to about five minutes of it. Thanks, I have to get back to my apathy and chains of slavery now.
posted by marxchivist at 8:25 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Again Sandy and Sean feeling victimized by the Libruls getting away with stuff, while they're like Jesus.
posted by RedEmma at 8:26 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sean: We're still waiting on that miracle.
posted by zakur at 8:26 AM on February 11, 2016

Sean: says he said things on the livefeed last night and before that will get him into trouble.. was let down at it not being his last days.
posted by RedEmma at 8:27 AM on February 11, 2016

OH GOD... Victoria's mom on the phone.
posted by RedEmma at 8:27 AM on February 11, 2016

Caller (Victoria Sharp's mom?) said that Blaine Cooper is being arrested. [unconfirmed]
posted by bluecore at 8:28 AM on February 11, 2016

oh man, this woman is gonna fuck everything up.
posted by valkane at 8:28 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Mama Sharpe just called in. She's telling Gav that FBI is "taking people out one-by-one."
posted by zakur at 8:28 AM on February 11, 2016

Victoria's mom breathlessly going on about how "everyone's being arrested"... speaking on behalf of the Lord Jesus Christ... it's the Lord's cause... the FBI is "taking them out one by one"... calling for a stand.

THIS IS BAD
posted by RedEmma at 8:28 AM on February 11, 2016

WTF, Victoria's mom is fucking everything up.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:29 AM on February 11, 2016

These Sharp ladies are gonna fuck this up!
posted by zakur at 8:29 AM on February 11, 2016

Now Victoria calling for peace...

I have no doubt that Sandy's become upset by this... I think I can hear her crying in the background.
posted by RedEmma at 8:29 AM on February 11, 2016

Omg these people do not get it. Shut-up until they get out unharmed. Arrrhgh
posted by Jalliah at 8:29 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Please let Blaine Cooper be arrested.
posted by Talez at 8:30 AM on February 11, 2016

victoria calling for thousands to come to burns to get the fbi to leave.
posted by nadawi at 8:30 AM on February 11, 2016

Victoria walks it back and says they won't be forgotten in jail.
posted by RedEmma at 8:30 AM on February 11, 2016

Omg these people do not get it. Shut-up until they get out unharmed. Arrrhgh

These people may or may not consider it in their interests for everyone to get out unharmed.
posted by Juffo-Wup at 8:30 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Michell is back.... Sandy is on the phone with her.
posted by RedEmma at 8:31 AM on February 11, 2016

sandy is talking to victoria about the 120 bullets in the van. they both agree the fbi are liars
posted by nadawi at 8:31 AM on February 11, 2016

Sandy trying to find out if the FBI is lying about the bullets re: LaVoy... Michelle: let's keep it cool. Graham is approaching now, and we're coming...
posted by RedEmma at 8:31 AM on February 11, 2016

Sandy actually sounds calm... they seem resigned to the process now, I think.
posted by RedEmma at 8:32 AM on February 11, 2016

fiore seems concerned things got het back up while she was off the call and she's trying to get everyone back to thinking about surrendering
posted by nadawi at 8:32 AM on February 11, 2016

From the Guardian live feed:

Fiore also said the occupiers had the support of Nevada assemblyman John Moore. Fiore and Moore are a part of presidential candidate Ted Cruz’s Nevada team.
posted by readery at 8:33 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

With Sean admitting they are already unarmed, it's shows great restraint on behalf of the FBI not to just rush them. The Feds are obviously prepping Fiore.
posted by valkane at 8:33 AM on February 11, 2016

Sean: what is the Bundy's condition... he's been reassured.
posted by RedEmma at 8:34 AM on February 11, 2016

Get mom off the phone!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:36 AM on February 11, 2016

HOLY SHIT SHUT UP THEY'RE ABOUT TO COME OUT.
posted by Talez at 8:36 AM on February 11, 2016

People on twitter are saying Blaine Cooper's wife posted that Blaine was arrested.
posted by bluecore at 8:36 AM on February 11, 2016

Who is this new lady telling them she believes they're going to be executed?
posted by zakur at 8:36 AM on February 11, 2016

The Sharps are still on the phone... with Sean... Mom thanks them, but then talks again about arrests... she tells them she doesn't believe it will be a peaceful arrest... Gavin interrupts and stops her.

Momma Sharp is again messing shit up. Gavin is trying to stop her... he could hang up! but he doesn't.. Gavin: "We're going to stay on message here..."
posted by RedEmma at 8:36 AM on February 11, 2016

What the hell get the Sharps off the frickin phone.
posted by Jalliah at 8:36 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

victoria's mom is back on the phone talking about arrests and how she doesn't think the fbi will let them out peacefully - gavin is trying to cut her off. "victoria is being circled by the fbi, we believe that!" gavin is trying to get them off the phone.
posted by nadawi at 8:36 AM on February 11, 2016

Who is this new lady telling them she believes they're going to be executed?

Victoria Sharp's mom (forget her name.)
posted by bluecore at 8:37 AM on February 11, 2016

Can we end with a song?
posted by valkane at 8:37 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

OMG they're gonna sing
posted by RedEmma at 8:37 AM on February 11, 2016

Who is this new lady telling them she believes they're going to be executed?

Victoria Sharp's mother, Odalis Sharp.
posted by Talez at 8:37 AM on February 11, 2016

No, not a song! We've been tortured enough.
posted by zakur at 8:37 AM on February 11, 2016

The mobile network is just butchering it lol.
posted by Talez at 8:37 AM on February 11, 2016

the best part is you can't really hear it and they sound like chipmunks.
posted by RedEmma at 8:37 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sounds like a record being played backwards. WTF?
posted by zakur at 8:38 AM on February 11, 2016

"And now, the Radio Free Static Singers performing their hit 'Song Sung From A Long, Echoed Hallway'!"
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:38 AM on February 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

Sean confirms it sounded like the Chipmunks
posted by zakur at 8:38 AM on February 11, 2016

Sean: agrees it sounded like chipmunks.
posted by RedEmma at 8:38 AM on February 11, 2016

Please let Blaine Cooper be arrested.

Melissa Cooper on Facebook: "My husband Blaine Cooper was just arrested by the FBI...."
posted by octobersurprise at 8:38 AM on February 11, 2016

lol sean just said they sounded like chipmunks
posted by nadawi at 8:39 AM on February 11, 2016

My boss just walked in and was all "So everything under control? All good here?"

Sure! o.O
posted by Jalliah at 8:39 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Sounds like Sean isn't really too flustered by Victoria's moms bullshit.
posted by valkane at 8:39 AM on February 11, 2016

Sean: the worst thing they could do is kill us, which would be the best thing for us, because it would mean we saw it through.
posted by RedEmma at 8:40 AM on February 11, 2016

Sean claiming getting killed will be the "best thing for us."
posted by zakur at 8:40 AM on February 11, 2016

the best part is you can't really hear it and they sound like chipmunks.

Surrender, surrender time is here
We've run out of snacks, we fear
posted by stevis23 at 8:40 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Blaine Cooper in custody. Cliven Bundy in custody. Today is a good day so far.
posted by Talez at 8:40 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Slow motion crazy train, wreck, wrapped in the American flag.
posted by Oyéah at 8:40 AM on February 11, 2016

Michelle will be coming up in an armed vehicle with Rev. F. Graham... she is warning them about the vehicle.
posted by RedEmma at 8:40 AM on February 11, 2016

Can we end with a song?

"When you walk through a storm
Hold your head up high
And don't be afraid of the dark
At the end of the storm
There's a golden sky
And the sweet silver song of the lark ..."
posted by octobersurprise at 8:41 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Rev Graham: We're here, and we look forward to being with you. We're proud of you and we look forward to giving you guys a big hug. Sean: we haven't bathed.
posted by RedEmma at 8:41 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Graham leading prayer on the phone now.
posted by zakur at 8:41 AM on February 11, 2016

Rev. Graham prays.
posted by RedEmma at 8:42 AM on February 11, 2016

Sean warns they might lose phone contact. He will come out with Sandy unarmed with a flag.
posted by RedEmma at 8:43 AM on February 11, 2016

Graham leading prayer on the phone now.

About fucking time!
posted by Trochanter at 8:43 AM on February 11, 2016

A few minutes, they say... Michelle is on the phone with them... will be getting into the armored car, they are on their way. Sean worried about overhead helicopter... Michelle tells them it's a medivac, which scares Sean. Michelle says it's for her when she has a heart attack.
posted by RedEmma at 8:44 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sean slight panic at mention of medivac
posted by zakur at 8:44 AM on February 11, 2016

fiore is warning them that her phone will drop.
sean says they see a helicopter
fiore says it's for surveillance - then medivac
sean freaks out
she tries to walk it back by saying she might have a heartattack
posted by nadawi at 8:45 AM on February 11, 2016

They're going to allow Fiore and Graham to come to them partway... Must follow the commands they are given.
posted by RedEmma at 8:45 AM on February 11, 2016

Can we end with a song?

"your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore"
posted by pyramid termite at 8:45 AM on February 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

Fiore telling them to pee
posted by zakur at 8:46 AM on February 11, 2016

Sean says okay. Michelle tells them to go the the bathroom. lol
posted by RedEmma at 8:46 AM on February 11, 2016

fiore is reminding them to get a drink of water and go pee
posted by nadawi at 8:46 AM on February 11, 2016

Sean wants to stop at Denny's
posted by zakur at 8:46 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sean says he will need to stop at Denny's. (worst commercial ever.. part IX)
posted by RedEmma at 8:46 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

"...and they need to pay because it's my tax dollars."
posted by zakur at 8:47 AM on February 11, 2016

Can we end with a song?

"When you walk through a storm...:

More like this I think.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 8:47 AM on February 11, 2016

they really do want to die if they want denny's
posted by pyramid termite at 8:47 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Found headphones.

Sean wants to stop at Denny's! Good to see him feeling OK enough to joke a little.
posted by mochapickle at 8:47 AM on February 11, 2016

Sean wants to stop at Denny's

Why not? Dylann Roof got Burger King.
posted by Talez at 8:47 AM on February 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

Fiore sees a tractor and cows.

Sean concerned about the number of viewers on the livefeed
posted by zakur at 8:48 AM on February 11, 2016

Michelle wants them to sing Country Boys Will Survive.
posted by RedEmma at 8:48 AM on February 11, 2016

What about Dave and Jeff?
posted by readery at 8:48 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm listening for the first time since last night's blow-up. I agree that Fiore sounds calm, lucid and helpful, even if she has megalomaniacal motives here.
posted by Evstar at 8:49 AM on February 11, 2016

"We want to be honorary Marines"
posted by mountmccabe at 8:49 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sean tells Fiore they want to be named honorary Marines.

As if...
posted by zakur at 8:49 AM on February 11, 2016

extolling the virtues of bocephus.

sean wants to be an honorary marine.
posted by nadawi at 8:49 AM on February 11, 2016

Sean says they should be made honorary marines. Sandy says their book will be a shocker... Michelle hopes they were taking notes. o_0
posted by RedEmma at 8:49 AM on February 11, 2016

50 shades of gray? This Fiore is something else.
posted by valkane at 8:49 AM on February 11, 2016

Fiore: "People want to know your story and your motivations."

Yeah, psychiatrists
posted by zakur at 8:50 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Fiore plugs 50 Shades of Grey for its attention to detail.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:50 AM on February 11, 2016

Michelle: wants it to be as detailed as Fifty Shades of Gray.

I am out of WTFs
posted by RedEmma at 8:50 AM on February 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

They can be named common law marines.
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:50 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

fiore is telling sandy to be detailed in her writings on her story so she can be a top seller like 50 shades of grey...?
posted by nadawi at 8:50 AM on February 11, 2016

Talking about Hank Williams is a very good move. Jumping on talk of the future - Sandy writing a detailed book - is a very good move. She is connecting with them.
posted by mountmccabe at 8:50 AM on February 11, 2016

Does Michele know what 50 Shades of Grey was about?
posted by Banknote of the year at 8:50 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

This is some high quality delusional stuff right here. Psychiatry papers for years.
posted by stevis23 at 8:51 AM on February 11, 2016

I'm sure Michele has the box set.
posted by valkane at 8:51 AM on February 11, 2016

Fringed underwear to protect them .
posted by Oyéah at 8:52 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

They can be named common law marines.
How about honorary morons, is that close enough?
posted by stevis23 at 8:52 AM on February 11, 2016

I think their mood is actually kind of jubilant, and Fiore is helping this along.
posted by RedEmma at 8:52 AM on February 11, 2016

"i've love to spit some beechnut at the FBI
cause a country boy will survive"

they don't like crows? fuck them, then - no wonder they're so fucked up
posted by pyramid termite at 8:52 AM on February 11, 2016

they disagree about whether crows are good or bad.
fiore has gargoyles
sandy keeps repeating "they call a flock of crows a murder"
posted by nadawi at 8:52 AM on February 11, 2016

Mention of gargoyles turns to Catholicism
posted by zakur at 8:52 AM on February 11, 2016

Fifty Shades of Gray.

Fifty! Can you imagine?!
posted by Trochanter at 8:53 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

(But right, we haven't heard from Fry and Banta today.)
posted by RedEmma at 8:53 AM on February 11, 2016

Sean says he will need to stop at Denny's

Careful. Don't let him pull a fast one. It's a well known fact that Denny's is a favorite place to convene Common Law Grand Juries.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:53 AM on February 11, 2016

I'm bowing out. My ears are starting to bleed and I feel stupider the longer I listen to these idiots.
posted by zakur at 8:54 AM on February 11, 2016

Actually, Graham asked about Fry and Banta and they both chimed in, sounding very, very tired.
posted by valkane at 8:54 AM on February 11, 2016

Fiore and Graham promising hugs. There are three FBI agents in the car with them, driving.
posted by RedEmma at 8:54 AM on February 11, 2016

At least 25 minutes until Fiore and Graham get to the vehicle that will take them to the meetup. I might use this time to get some work done.
posted by sparklemotion at 8:54 AM on February 11, 2016

the rev and fiore sound way more invested in all this hugging than those at the camp do
posted by nadawi at 8:55 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

sandy keeps repeating "they call a flock of crows a murder"

they call a flock of them a "dump"

oh, look, there's a dump of militia
posted by pyramid termite at 8:55 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

That is so slow.
posted by Oyéah at 8:55 AM on February 11, 2016

Given the "FBI is lying to you!" stuff from last night, I'm not as positive about Fiore's role in this as some of the people in the thread, but I will say this for her: she genuinely appears to want them to get out alive, which is more than I can say for some people on their 'side', i.e. Gavin and the Sharps and so on.
posted by tavella at 8:56 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Michelle and Graham, good mommy and daddy role models.
posted by Oyéah at 8:57 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

All I am hearing is Sandy and Sean. What are the other two doing?
posted by mochapickle at 8:58 AM on February 11, 2016

Dave is probably suffering from withdrawal.
posted by valkane at 8:59 AM on February 11, 2016

Re Fry and Jeff: No one knows, unless they've been on the FBI phone.
posted by RedEmma at 9:00 AM on February 11, 2016

CHRISTIAN NATION! COMPASSION AND FORGIVENESS! SO LONG AS YOU'RE WHITE!
posted by Talez at 9:00 AM on February 11, 2016

Sandy and Sean seeing signs from God in the campfire and Mag-Light beam.
posted by zakur

This could be a line from a Silver Jews song.
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:03 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Sandy and Sean are worrying about being roughed up, but they also seem kind of okay with it now.
posted by RedEmma at 9:03 AM on February 11, 2016

Ugh, no. No, Gavin, do not add in KrisAnne.
posted by mochapickle at 9:03 AM on February 11, 2016

For a moment there, Gavin was making a mostly-sensible point about how prisons are designed to break your spirit. So of course he had to veer off into macho religiosity.
posted by Banknote of the year at 9:03 AM on February 11, 2016

Exactly, it is terribly quiet on that end, and we did notice all the flammables in camp. It is not over, yet. Everyone else has the hooks of children, but Fry. If you look at it, in a novel, his name might be his exit strategy, or a command, even.
posted by Oyéah at 9:04 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Who are the four people who just walked up to the roadblock and shook the officer’s hand?
posted by nicepersonality at 9:05 AM on February 11, 2016

I think Gavin's setting himself up for being invited on every other right wing shit show for the next decade.
posted by readery at 9:05 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well, Sean feels completely estranged by his family, and earlier today said they called and "Judased" him. So.
posted by RedEmma at 9:06 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yes, and they are near a town called BURNS. Conspiracy...
posted by mochapickle at 9:06 AM on February 11, 2016

KrisAnne was disbarred, btw.
posted by mochapickle at 9:07 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yeah, Fiore ain't gonna be upstaged by this KrisAnne upstart.
posted by valkane at 9:08 AM on February 11, 2016

IDIOCRACY WAS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE AN INSTRUCTION MANUAL GOD DAMMIT
posted by Talez at 9:08 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

The motorcade is coming through the press now
posted by RedEmma at 9:09 AM on February 11, 2016

Fiore and Graham are at the roadblock on KGW feed now.
posted by RedEmma at 9:09 AM on February 11, 2016

How did Fiore miss her chance to get her face on camera when passing through the media?
posted by peeedro at 9:10 AM on February 11, 2016

KrisAnne dominating the feed with her own blah blah.
posted by RedEmma at 9:10 AM on February 11, 2016

KrisAnne Hall is totally that guy at a conference panel Q&A whose stands up to ask a question that's just a two-minute plug for his startup.
posted by cortex at 9:11 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

KrisAnn Hall is spouting some ridiculousness, but part of me is glad that anyone but Gavin is speaking.
posted by mountmccabe at 9:11 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Those people at the roadblocks are those other small time legislators that Michelle was talking about earlier.
posted by RedEmma at 9:12 AM on February 11, 2016

Not conspiracy, I have just noticed some literalism in these folks, and seeing signs and so forth. Isn't it funny though, the whole overt thing started with fires set in the area of Burns, Oregon.
posted by Oyéah at 9:12 AM on February 11, 2016

They are trying to claim they've been involved from the beginning...
posted by RedEmma at 9:12 AM on February 11, 2016

I'm going to miss this thread. I love you all.
posted by mochapickle at 9:12 AM on February 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

The press isn't impressed.
posted by RedEmma at 9:13 AM on February 11, 2016

KGW to the other state lawmaker folks at the roadblock: "your motivations aren't clear, because this has been going on for forty days and this is the first time you're here..."

Other lawmaker: "we haven't had coffee yet...let's just go get coffee"
posted by cortex at 9:13 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

KrisAnne Hall was fired from her job as a prosecutor. I haven't read anything about her being disbarred.
posted by rdr at 9:14 AM on February 11, 2016

Michelle makes them promise to emerge peacefully.
posted by RedEmma at 9:15 AM on February 11, 2016

Has anyone been monitoring the SovCit boards? How is Fiore looking to them? Hero? Or FBI puppet who can't be trusted?
posted by Thorzdad at 9:16 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Gavin tries to claim it's cleaner there now than before the "patriots" came... Sean doesn't sound so sure about that.
posted by RedEmma at 9:16 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oh DO NOT pretend you've been practicing Leave No Trace camping.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:17 AM on February 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

Gavin tries to get them to say that the reason there is now disarray is because the Feds made them leave the building. oookay.
posted by RedEmma at 9:17 AM on February 11, 2016

Gavin trying hard to get 'em to declare that the refuge is in way better shape than before this whole thing started. Neither Sean nor Sandy is picking up on that, noting that there is in fact a hell of a mess.
posted by cortex at 9:18 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

You own anything you litter on, you see, so...
posted by Artw at 9:18 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fry on the phone, finally!
posted by RedEmma at 9:18 AM on February 11, 2016

FIRST week at the new job and the FBI decides TODAY to raid

SAME, I went to a concert last night, got back late, crashed, and woke to this. Trying to digest it all so fast. What is the current feed link you are all watching?

Also, I wouldn't mind never hearing the phrase "stand down" again.
posted by Miko at 9:19 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

And he sounds like he's just chillin', watching movies.
posted by mochapickle at 9:19 AM on February 11, 2016

KrisAnne and Gavin reassuring them that they aren't alone, and are "part of history" or whatever.
posted by RedEmma at 9:19 AM on February 11, 2016

There is newsmaking, and making news.
posted by Oyéah at 9:19 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Visual feed at KGW interspersed with Gavin's Feed when they have nothing to show.

Gavin's audio feed

I have both windows open.
posted by RedEmma at 9:21 AM on February 11, 2016

Fry: again about why won't the sheeple stand up for dignity.
posted by RedEmma at 9:21 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Thanks to all providing the live updates. In a hospital waiting room with no headphones and can't listen in. I'm passing along the funnier bits to my spouse, who hasn't followed this story at all, and that's keeping her mind off the upcoming examination.
posted by honestcoyote at 9:22 AM on February 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

Fry: rambling but sounding positive.
posted by RedEmma at 9:22 AM on February 11, 2016

> I have both windows open

Me too. This is forcing me to acknowledge things about myself that perhaps I was happier denying.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:22 AM on February 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

MetaFilter: forcing me to acknowledge things about myself that perhaps I was happier denying.
posted by hippybear at 9:23 AM on February 11, 2016 [23 favorites]

SHARIA LAW! BINGO! I HAVE OREGON MILITANT BINGO!

How much was the final pot?
posted by Talez at 9:24 AM on February 11, 2016 [15 favorites]

The difficult part is that they are kept so far away from the meeting with Graham and Michelle, visually, that there's no way we'll see much of anything anyway.

The only hope is that Gavin and KrisAnne will STFU and Michelle will get back on the phone with them. Sean and Fry etc. are kept waiting while KrisAnne goes on and on.
posted by RedEmma at 9:25 AM on February 11, 2016

This is about KrisAnne selling more books!
posted by valkane at 9:25 AM on February 11, 2016

This KrisAnne is giving a real stemwinder on government and freedom.
posted by peeedro at 9:25 AM on February 11, 2016

Yeah, this isn't helping.
posted by Miko at 9:25 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

How much was the final pot?

10 mil, you just need to make the claim via the federal government as you the person, not you the corporate entity.
posted by MysticMCJ at 9:26 AM on February 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

KrisAnne is not feeling the Bern:(
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:27 AM on February 11, 2016

Sandy cuts in because she has a request for all Americans to read their constitution.
posted by RedEmma at 9:27 AM on February 11, 2016

(Because you "don't need to be a lawyer" to understand this... a cut to KrisAnne??)
posted by RedEmma at 9:27 AM on February 11, 2016

10 mil, you just need to make the claim via the federal government as you the person, not you the corporate entity.

And the payment is in WeRe checks.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:28 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Has Sandy read the part about ex post facto laws? Does her five year old speak Latin?
posted by Banknote of the year at 9:28 AM on February 11, 2016

I also would have problems speaking ex tempore for this long. Which is why I don't get myself in situations where I would have to.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:28 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Such a dilemma. I have to get my stuff together and get on the road back home, a 2 hour drive. But I don't want to miss any of this. I can't think of a way I can run a stream in my car -- seems impossible. But the longer I wait the more my day gets off track. And there's no telling when anything will actually happen.
posted by Miko at 9:29 AM on February 11, 2016

KrisAnne is booking a year's worth of speaking engagements to Republican state legislators right now. This is her big break, she's dominating the conversation, they need to get her off the line. Gavin is such an idiot.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:30 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Wasn't KrisAnne the one saying you didn't have to be a lawyer?

Fiore had to shut down her Home Health Aide company after new regulations required proper licensing, blaming big government.
posted by mochapickle at 9:30 AM on February 11, 2016

Right? No one wants to listen to her... Let Sandy and Sean speak for god's sake.

I never thought I'd say that
posted by RedEmma at 9:31 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

mochapickle: Sandy said it and then KrisAnne repeated it as a sort of mirror. Unf. their voices sound similar.
posted by RedEmma at 9:32 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

gavin suddenly remembering what this live stream is about and asks if sean and sandy are still there. krisanne breaks back in to publicize her hashtag
posted by nadawi at 9:33 AM on February 11, 2016

Basically KrisAnne is making Fry sit on the phone listening to her... I'll bet one million freedom dollars he's rolling his eyes.
posted by RedEmma at 9:33 AM on February 11, 2016

I just hope this doesn't become some strange constant reality, it looks like the courts are already wading in it too often. Is this what a Cruz presidency would look like? Michelle Fiori, Secretary of State?
posted by Oyéah at 9:34 AM on February 11, 2016

Even if I were a wingnut right-wing self-styled media producer, the time for this kind of talk is in the follow-up to the arrests, when there is nothing more to watch that happens where you can see it, and the wingnut media needs something to keep the eyeballs and ears focused. It's not mid-event.
posted by Miko at 9:34 AM on February 11, 2016

Sean: they're telling all of us to come out one at a time. Gavin hopes they will get to narrate as they go out... Sandy will go first.
posted by RedEmma at 9:35 AM on February 11, 2016

Fiore had to shut down her Home Health Aide company

She also thinks cancer is "a fungus."
posted by octobersurprise at 9:35 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Sean is going to play a song?
posted by peeedro at 9:35 AM on February 11, 2016

Gavin: "You want to keep your hands up, of course, but maybe keep the phone in it?"
posted by bluecore at 9:35 AM on February 11, 2016

They're talking about how they're going to be walking out now.
posted by mountmccabe at 9:35 AM on February 11, 2016

Bagpipes?!?
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:36 AM on February 11, 2016

Sean is playing us music! Is that harmonica?
posted by mochapickle at 9:36 AM on February 11, 2016

Sean is going to play the national anthem on bagpipes as they go...???
posted by RedEmma at 9:36 AM on February 11, 2016

I think it's a recording of some bagpipe anthem.
posted by RedEmma at 9:36 AM on February 11, 2016

WTF?
posted by valkane at 9:36 AM on February 11, 2016

Whatever it is, it sounds terrible and yet still better than the Sharps.
posted by mochapickle at 9:36 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

oh yes, these dulcet tones have me feeling all patriotic
posted by nadawi at 9:37 AM on February 11, 2016

omg.
posted by madamjujujive at 9:37 AM on February 11, 2016

Basically KrisAnne is making Fry sit on the phone listening to her...

Nah, he loves that stuff.

Wait, WHAT? Sean playing bagpipe music?

I guess Sean and Sandy aren't going to be able to walk out together with a flag and a bald eagle perched on their shoulder and a sheaf of wheat in each hand. The amount of stage-managing this surrender is getting - is that normal?
posted by Miko at 9:37 AM on February 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

Is Gavin Bryars involved?
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:37 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

No, it's not the theme to Braveheart.
posted by peeedro at 9:37 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

the only upside is that they don't have the sharps singing this
posted by madamjujujive at 9:37 AM on February 11, 2016

I didn't really expect an experimental audio production aspect to this. "What happens when we totally overwhelm the mic on a phone with too-loud music?"
posted by cortex at 9:37 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Sean: Sandy and I are coming out.. asks about the livestream first.
posted by RedEmma at 9:38 AM on February 11, 2016

This is SO BIZARRE.
posted by Miko at 9:38 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Is he playing the soundtrack to Braveheart?
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:38 AM on February 11, 2016

Sean is very concerned with how many people are watching.
posted by Miko at 9:39 AM on February 11, 2016

I can't breathe.
posted by mochapickle at 9:39 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fry: Sandy and Sean have their hands in the air... holding hands. Sean is holding a flag. kissing and hugging...
posted by RedEmma at 9:39 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

David notes that "they got guns pointed at us."

Seim: "I'm sure they do, but don't worry about it. They're skittish. They're not very courageous, unlike like you guys."
posted by Miko at 9:40 AM on February 11, 2016

Just trying to imagine the national anthem played on bagpipes makes my salivary glands ache.
posted by Oyéah at 9:40 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I can't believe I'm crying.
posted by RedEmma at 9:40 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Fry narrating Sean and Sandy going out together, hands clasped, Sean with a flag in his hand, hugging and kissing, Jeff and David following behind?

Gavin, the fucking idiot, suggests to David that he SLIP THE PHONE INTO HIS POCKET before someone prompts him to reverse course on the whole "reach for your pocket" thing.
posted by cortex at 9:40 AM on February 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

Sean is very concerned with how many people are watching.

Remember, they were expecting "hundreds of thousands" of people to join them at the refuge. The livestream is probably validating their experience, they feel like all those people are there for them in support.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:40 AM on February 11, 2016

(It wasn't the national anthem... some celtic/scottish song I've never heard.... someone will tell us later i imagine.)
posted by RedEmma at 9:40 AM on February 11, 2016

I'm totally crying.
posted by mochapickle at 9:41 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Says they're not pointing guns at us.
posted by Jalliah at 9:41 AM on February 11, 2016

Sean and Sandy are about to be separated probably for years, and they spent their last half hour together debating the constitution with Gavin and Krisanne.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:41 AM on February 11, 2016 [15 favorites]

lost audio feed!
posted by Miko at 9:41 AM on February 11, 2016

Fry: They took Sandy. Sean is standing with the flag.

KrisAnne interjects ... Gavin reluctantly lets her and tells Fry to interrupt if necessary. GODDAMIT
posted by RedEmma at 9:42 AM on February 11, 2016

omg krisanne shut up
posted by nadawi at 9:42 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Are they safe yet?
posted by Oyéah at 9:42 AM on February 11, 2016

Ohmygod, shut UP KrisAnne.
posted by Evstar at 9:42 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

who could know, krisanne has to hear herself talk about congress.
posted by nadawi at 9:42 AM on February 11, 2016

Fry: they held the flag up in the air as they took Sean. Jeff is going out now.
posted by RedEmma at 9:43 AM on February 11, 2016

Gavin should be arrested for crimes against our ears.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:43 AM on February 11, 2016

jeff is going, holding a flag, "stand tall brother!"
posted by nadawi at 9:43 AM on February 11, 2016

They're going to "hold the president accountable." Talk about virtual reality.
posted by Lyme Drop at 9:43 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm so wrapped up in this that I just thought the sirens in my neighborhood were somehow connected to the events at the refuge, hundreds of miles away.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:43 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Everyone is going peacefully and safely. Fry is the only one left. Lighting a cigarette.
posted by RedEmma at 9:44 AM on February 11, 2016

KGW just showed what appeared to be the only two protestors at the roadblock. A man holding an inverted American flag and a woman holding a hand-lettered sign “I LIVE IN AMERICA NOT RUSSIA.”
posted by nicepersonality at 9:44 AM on February 11, 2016

david is lighting a cigarette
posted by nadawi at 9:44 AM on February 11, 2016

David shouting back to...Fiore, maybe, over bullhorn? Or something?
posted by cortex at 9:45 AM on February 11, 2016

Fry REFUSES TO COME OUT
posted by RedEmma at 9:45 AM on February 11, 2016

David is saying he won't come out.
posted by mountmccabe at 9:45 AM on February 11, 2016

Aw, fuckin' David. "I will not come out!"
posted by cortex at 9:45 AM on February 11, 2016

Oh no, David, don't say that.
posted by peeedro at 9:45 AM on February 11, 2016

Oh gawd....
posted by Jalliah at 9:45 AM on February 11, 2016

Gavin and KrisAnne trying to cool him down...
posted by RedEmma at 9:45 AM on February 11, 2016

david just yelled "unless my grievances are heard, i will not come out"
posted by nadawi at 9:45 AM on February 11, 2016

David now refuses to leave until he can air his grievances.
posted by mochapickle at 9:45 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

omg, fry won't go out unless grievances are heard
posted by madamjujujive at 9:45 AM on February 11, 2016

Oh, shit. David is refusing to go out.
posted by bluecore at 9:46 AM on February 11, 2016

C'mon, David, you can do it! Help is a short walk away.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 9:46 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

fuck. fuck fuck.
posted by nadawi at 9:46 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fry the last one, don't screw it up here David.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:46 AM on February 11, 2016

Please walk outside.
posted by Lyme Drop at 9:46 AM on February 11, 2016

Of course Fry would be the one to pull this shit. He's been too quiet.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:46 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fry says he hasn't agreed to any of this.
posted by RedEmma at 9:47 AM on February 11, 2016

Ah, shit.
posted by OmieWise at 9:47 AM on February 11, 2016

Stretch goal.
posted by Artw at 9:47 AM on February 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

gavin trying to get david to surrender, krisanne is also trying to convince him. david says he didn't agree to any of this.
posted by nadawi at 9:47 AM on February 11, 2016

Gavin and KrisAnn are calm now, trying to talk David down.
posted by mountmccabe at 9:47 AM on February 11, 2016

Crazy is inconvenient.
posted by Oyéah at 9:47 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

He's feeling suicidal right now he says.
posted by RedEmma at 9:47 AM on February 11, 2016

When he wasn't talking, I assumed this was Fry's plan.
posted by Seamus at 9:47 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

David: "I'm actually feeling suicidal right now"
posted by peeedro at 9:47 AM on February 11, 2016

feeling suicidal right now
posted by madamjujujive at 9:47 AM on February 11, 2016

Promise him anything, just get him out of there.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:47 AM on February 11, 2016

oh, god, this is too meta
posted by pyramid termite at 9:47 AM on February 11, 2016

I don't think I can listen to this anymore.
posted by Jalliah at 9:47 AM on February 11, 2016

Please talk him out of there.
posted by figurant at 9:48 AM on February 11, 2016

Of course. He would be the one, he's got nothing. They should have had him come out first.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:48 AM on February 11, 2016

Fry says he will die a free man.
posted by RedEmma at 9:48 AM on February 11, 2016

Suicide talk now
posted by zakur at 9:48 AM on February 11, 2016

Don't do it, David.
posted by Talez at 9:48 AM on February 11, 2016

But he's taking calls.
posted by RedEmma at 9:48 AM on February 11, 2016

“I’m actually feeling suicidal right now.” fffffffffff
posted by nicepersonality at 9:48 AM on February 11, 2016

stomach churning
posted by madamjujujive at 9:48 AM on February 11, 2016

"i am not a slave, i am a free man, i will die a free man"
posted by nadawi at 9:48 AM on February 11, 2016

We've been hearing your bullshit grievances for a month, you punk.
posted by Trochanter at 9:48 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

UUGH. This is kind of awful, and yet I feel somewhat predictable. We are not professionals in this sort of standoff, but even we noted he was suicidal, and it seems as though they should have negotiated that he would go first.
posted by Miko at 9:48 AM on February 11, 2016

David: "I'm actually feeling suicidal right now."

Gavin: "Well, now, [nervous chuckle]"

David shouting again repeatedly that they should call him on his cellphone.
posted by cortex at 9:48 AM on February 11, 2016

It hurts, listening to him. Please, dude, just walk outside.
posted by Lyme Drop at 9:48 AM on February 11, 2016

OK, now I am grateful for KrisAnne.
posted by mochapickle at 9:49 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

C'mon, Fry. Walk off.
posted by notyou at 9:49 AM on February 11, 2016

Gavin and KrisAnne are trying to tell him to walk out and not ruin everything.

Fry: I have to hold my fort. How come they won't call me?
posted by RedEmma at 9:49 AM on February 11, 2016

OK, I am turning this off. I can't.
posted by mochapickle at 9:49 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fry: they knew I wasn't going to go with them.
posted by RedEmma at 9:49 AM on February 11, 2016

David: "I told those three I wasn't going, they knew."
posted by peeedro at 9:50 AM on February 11, 2016

> it seems as though they should have negotiated that he would go first

I don't think so -- at least this way two people got out.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:50 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

gavin is begging david to walk out with his head held high. krisanne says he's untrustworthy. david says the 3 knew he wasn't coming out.
posted by nadawi at 9:50 AM on February 11, 2016

This is Fry's whole life right here.
posted by OmieWise at 9:50 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Paul and Silas. Good call.
posted by Miko at 9:50 AM on February 11, 2016

And this is why Fiore the non-negotiator should be arrested too.
posted by Yowser at 9:50 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

No. If he went first, he would still have pulled this shit. Use a five year old having a tantrum to model his behavior.
posted by rdr at 9:50 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

something about circumcision in the bible?
posted by nadawi at 9:51 AM on February 11, 2016

I don't think so -- at least this way two people got out.

Three; Jeff went as well.
posted by cortex at 9:51 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

She's good at making random words seem meaningful.
posted by Lyme Drop at 9:51 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't think so -- at least this way two people got out.

Oh, I can see that reasoning. A chilling reasoning, but yes - this way he can't take a hostage.
posted by Miko at 9:51 AM on February 11, 2016

Fry: everybody's in safe hands, but I will stay here, and I will defend myself.
posted by RedEmma at 9:51 AM on February 11, 2016

“I LIVE IN AMERICA NOT RUSSIA.”
This person at least knows where she lives.
posted by Oyéah at 9:52 AM on February 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

"if they attack me, i have to defend myself. they haven't promised me any of my grievances against the government"
posted by nadawi at 9:52 AM on February 11, 2016

aaand here's my surprised face.
posted by Archelaus at 9:52 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fry is on the phone with Rev. Graham. on the other line. We can hear his voice but not the Rev.

He will not go out, he says.
posted by RedEmma at 9:52 AM on February 11, 2016

Gavin telling Fry that FBI is not honorable is NOT helping
posted by zakur at 9:53 AM on February 11, 2016

Use a five year old having a tantrum to model his behavior.


There was a piece on him earlier, and this is how he deals with stuff. Throw a tantrum and dad backs off. Works every time.
posted by Trochanter at 9:53 AM on February 11, 2016

krisanne is really upset he won't let her finish giving her bible lesson.
posted by nadawi at 9:53 AM on February 11, 2016

Here's the story of Paul and Silas, just for relevance.
posted by Miko at 9:53 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Gavin: David, just GO OUT.

KrisAnne: you are jeopardizing our future...
posted by RedEmma at 9:53 AM on February 11, 2016

I feel like when Michelle asked David if he was "very familiar with scripture", she took it way too much on face value that his "yes" meant "I can keep up with a detailed conversation about specific random verses and quizzing me on them will improve the situation".
posted by cortex at 9:53 AM on February 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

Fry: Liberty or death.
posted by RedEmma at 9:54 AM on February 11, 2016

David: "I declare war against the government"
posted by peeedro at 9:54 AM on February 11, 2016

Fry: I declare war against the government.
posted by RedEmma at 9:54 AM on February 11, 2016

"I declare war against the Federal Government."

Well, now you've done it.
posted by Miko at 9:54 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

"it's better just to die - liberty or death. i declare war against the federal government"
posted by nadawi at 9:54 AM on February 11, 2016

Cripes, it's one guy now? Tear gas and move on.
posted by stevis23 at 9:54 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

(Or KrisAnne, rather.)
posted by cortex at 9:55 AM on February 11, 2016

This entire live stream will make a useful case study for how to try talk a crazy person down.
posted by humanfont at 9:55 AM on February 11, 2016

KrisAnne: if you aren't around, how will your voice be heard?
posted by RedEmma at 9:55 AM on February 11, 2016

"As a citizen of the... people of the Constitution, I declare war against the federal government."

"Liberty or death."

You chose your path, pal.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:55 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Take him out with non-lethal methods. ASAP
posted by Windopaene at 9:55 AM on February 11, 2016

she took it way too much on face value that his "yes" meant "I can keep up with a detailed conversation about specific random verses

I disagree on this. Assuming he grew up attending service/Bible study, this set of verses isn't random and is completely on point. It's an important story that came up a lot in liberation theology/civil rights movement. I thought it was a smart stroke. That doesn't mean he's as studied a Christian as he poses to be, but that reference is not an obscure one to someone who has spent a certain amount of time around a Bible.
posted by Miko at 9:56 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Where is he? Is he still armed? If he's in the building can the sneak up on him while he's ranting?
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:56 AM on February 11, 2016

Fry says his main grievance is that his taxes go to abortion....
posted by RedEmma at 9:56 AM on February 11, 2016

Now it's about his 1st Amendment rights, taxes and abortion.
posted by peeedro at 9:57 AM on February 11, 2016

he doesn't want his taxes going towards abortion.
posted by nadawi at 9:57 AM on February 11, 2016

> Take him out with non-lethal methods

I presume he's got a gun in his hand and would react badly to any sudden noises.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:57 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

And so it goes. He needs some instant tranquility. I want him to survive too.
posted by Oyéah at 9:57 AM on February 11, 2016

He is in a tarp-tent type shelter outside on the driveway. They have been there for some days now. He is still armed.
posted by RedEmma at 9:57 AM on February 11, 2016

David's grievances: his taxes are going toward abortion.
posted by Miko at 9:57 AM on February 11, 2016

The smart play is for the FBI to tell him that they're cutting the livestream. They aren't getting any more usable information and the attention seeking will perhaps go away..
posted by rdr at 9:57 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

At least they're distracting him a bit, but I'm worried that KrisAnne is getting him riled up by arguing with him. He needs to be talking to someone who knows how to de-escalate.
posted by figurant at 9:58 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

no, they were clear that their "personal guns" are in the truck but other guns are "around"
posted by nadawi at 9:59 AM on February 11, 2016

Ah, yes, the "every citizen has line item veto authority" clause of the U.S. Constitution. Somewhere in Article ¯\_(ツ)_/¯, I think.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:59 AM on February 11, 2016 [16 favorites]

I disagree on this. Assuming he grew up attending service/Bible study, this set of verses isn't random and is completely on point.

Oh, I hear you; it's the assumption that he was an attentive student of the bible that seems flawed. KrisAnne hit a real leading "you know this, right?" note that he couldn't say "no" to without embarrassment, which, fine, it served her point she was going for. It's circling back and asking him to provide a freeform elaboration on it in realtime that seems guileless to me.
posted by cortex at 9:59 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I say it's time to shut down the feeds. No more audience for his grandstanding.

"Everyones' gone home, David."
posted by Trochanter at 9:59 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Sounds like David is talking to Fiore, and she's calming him down.
posted by peeedro at 10:01 AM on February 11, 2016

David demands space from the FBI..

Re: religion: David has said at least once that he isn't very religious, so using that isn't likely to work. I mean, he is surrounded by Christians, but he seems to be only going along because it helps him feel loved. But he doesn't feel it, really.

Now Michele is on the phone with him.
posted by RedEmma at 10:01 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

yeah - they said they secured their own guns but they aren't touching other peoples. i don't think that's a slam dunk for him being unarmed, especially since it's clear his silence can't be taken as agreement from earlier.
posted by nadawi at 10:01 AM on February 11, 2016

Given that Sean and Sandy and Jeff were the ones planning to surrender, it is pretty clear that David never put his gun away.
posted by RedEmma at 10:02 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

asking him to provide a freeform elaboration on it

I can see that.
posted by Miko at 10:02 AM on February 11, 2016

Davis is tired of listening to the "yappers."
posted by RedEmma at 10:02 AM on February 11, 2016

KrisAnne gets him more worked up, not less. Responsibility to her child? What?
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:02 AM on February 11, 2016

Silencio.
posted by Lyme Drop at 10:02 AM on February 11, 2016

Krisanne is trying the think if the children strategy.
posted by Weeping_angel at 10:02 AM on February 11, 2016

why does krisanne keep harping on why david needs to help her kid. he says he feels like he's surrounded by yappers - that men take a stand.
posted by nadawi at 10:02 AM on February 11, 2016

He sees this as him "being a man."
posted by RedEmma at 10:02 AM on February 11, 2016

David can't come out because he's "a man, taking a stand"
posted by sporkwort at 10:02 AM on February 11, 2016

"I'm a man. I'm taking a stand."

#NotAllMen
posted by tonycpsu at 10:03 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

krisanne really needs to get off the phone.
posted by nadawi at 10:03 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Dying is easy, young man; living is harder
posted by librarina at 10:03 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

KrisAnne is the worst, she's getting him more wound up.
posted by peeedro at 10:03 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oops, now sound's back. Perfect timing for the audio drop-out to seem like an intentional line-cutting: right after David said "stop talking, I'm making my stand."
posted by Lyme Drop at 10:03 AM on February 11, 2016

OMG get KrisAnne off the phone now... it is a mistake. He thought she called him a coward.
posted by RedEmma at 10:03 AM on February 11, 2016

krisanne, "don't be a coward"
david, "YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO CALL ME A COWARD"
posted by nadawi at 10:03 AM on February 11, 2016

Leave him in the tent. Cordon him off, and move in to the refuge. Just work around him and never acknowledge he's there. Ignore the fuck out of him.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:03 AM on February 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

krisanne needs to shut up - in fact, i'm not so sure they shouldn't just hang up on him
posted by pyramid termite at 10:04 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

jesus paid for abortions is an interesting tact
david reminds gavin that jesus died.
posted by nadawi at 10:05 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Where are David's parents?!
posted by Miko at 10:05 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Goddammit get KrisAnne as far away from David as possible.
posted by sporkwort at 10:05 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Welp, Krisanne needs to get charged too. She screwed this right up now.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:05 AM on February 11, 2016

Some Michelle version has to get into the blanket fort with him. Maybe Victoria Sharpie can sing him out. This is where his madness takes on the lethal form. Someone has to get ahead of his mania.
posted by Oyéah at 10:05 AM on February 11, 2016

You can opt out of taxes, friend. That choice just has consequences.
posted by Miko at 10:06 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

This is like the scene in the Other Guys when Will Ferrell actually negotiates a guy into committing suicide.
posted by maxsparber at 10:06 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

STOP QUIZZING HIM.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:06 AM on February 11, 2016

KrisAnne's strategy isn't too bad. Make surrender into a heroic narrative. But the execution sucks. David doesn't sound like he deals with criticism well, and "letting down the movement" and "cowardice" aren't good lines to take.
posted by figurant at 10:06 AM on February 11, 2016

David: Christ died at 33 for what he believed in. You people are selfish for not sacrificing anything.
posted by RedEmma at 10:07 AM on February 11, 2016

I feel you bro. I don't want to pay for the F35 too.
posted by johnpowell at 10:07 AM on February 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

"christ died at 33. you guys are selfish. you aren't willing to sacrifice"
posted by nadawi at 10:07 AM on February 11, 2016

"lavoy got his. death is not scary."
posted by nadawi at 10:07 AM on February 11, 2016

"THAT'S WHAT THE SECOND AMENDMENT IS FOR!"

Holy shit.
posted by Talez at 10:08 AM on February 11, 2016

krisanne is the worst "david you are wrong!" what the fuck is she doing
posted by nadawi at 10:09 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

"The Second Amendment is not there to protect all the rest. The First Amendment is."
posted by OverlappingElvis at 10:09 AM on February 11, 2016

i guess by the time you get down to the 18th amendment, no one's going to think it's important at all
posted by pyramid termite at 10:09 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

"My grievances are what caused people to come here"

No, it was your guns.
posted by benito.strauss at 10:09 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

"I will not be forced to pay for my existence with health insurance, to pay for abortion"
posted by peeedro at 10:10 AM on February 11, 2016

If Fry wasn't so into getting his voice on the Internet, he wouldn't have KrisAnne and Gavin talking him up into a frenzy.

They totally should cut him off. Esp. since Michele and Graham are on the other line and he's ignoring them more or less.
posted by RedEmma at 10:10 AM on February 11, 2016

now he's ranting about islamophobes and how wrong they are
posted by nadawi at 10:10 AM on February 11, 2016

Holy crap he's talking about it be bad that Americans hate Muslims.
posted by Jalliah at 10:10 AM on February 11, 2016

Did he just say something nice about Muslims?
posted by benito.strauss at 10:10 AM on February 11, 2016

If I was one of the agents on site, I'd be invoking the 21st after all is done.
posted by MysticMCJ at 10:11 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

he wants the special rich people prison
posted by nadawi at 10:11 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Fry is starting to talk about how he's worried about prison... wants promises of a "special prison."
posted by RedEmma at 10:11 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

"The rich get special prisons." He's right.
posted by Lyme Drop at 10:11 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Gavin tries to talk to him about how jail isn't so bad.
posted by RedEmma at 10:11 AM on February 11, 2016

Fine PROMISE HIM RICH PEOPLE PRISON, be soothing, have these people never talked to a worked-up person before?
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:12 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Is it wrong to relish how David is fucking up Fiore 's plans?
posted by Yowser at 10:13 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

"My concerns is that if I go to prison I'll get raped"
posted by peeedro at 10:13 AM on February 11, 2016

krisanne is promising him media interviews "i promise you i have millions of medias"
david - "i can't"
afraid of being raped in prison
posted by nadawi at 10:13 AM on February 11, 2016

He's honestly obsessed with this rape thing. Maybe they should attack this from that angle. Oh, now they are.
posted by Miko at 10:13 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Is it just me or does Gavin's voice sound a lot like Scott Aukerman?
posted by OverlappingElvis at 10:13 AM on February 11, 2016

He's so sacred straight that he's going to kill himself rather than go to jail.
posted by humanfont at 10:14 AM on February 11, 2016

Gavin's attempt to tell him about how jail isn't so bad sounds an awful lot like it's referencing white supremacists. Maybe that's just me.

(David earlier claimed he was worried about being raped by "bubba" or some similar, basically claiming he'd be raped by black people)
posted by tocts at 10:14 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

i wonder if he was sexually abused as a kid...
posted by nadawi at 10:14 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I mean, it's not an unreasonable concern.
posted by Weeping_angel at 10:14 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

The rich won't put up with him. I can see him lasting less than three minutes, bartending at a country club.
posted by Oyéah at 10:14 AM on February 11, 2016

Fry: I'm comfortable where I'm at. (listening to the other line... a male voice.. maybe Graham or FBI)
posted by RedEmma at 10:15 AM on February 11, 2016

Being "scared straight" and not wanting to be forcibly raped are two different things. Probably some overlap in this case, but just want to make that very clear.
posted by MysticMCJ at 10:15 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Fry: I can't do it. I can't come out.
posted by RedEmma at 10:16 AM on February 11, 2016

"i can't come out guys, i can't, i can't do it"
posted by nadawi at 10:16 AM on February 11, 2016

I'm just checking back in. Have the others turned themselves in and Fry is the last holdout?
posted by NoMich at 10:16 AM on February 11, 2016

AP BREAKING NEWS: Cliven Bundy charged with assault, conspiracy for 2014 standoff near his Nevada ranch.
posted by zakur at 10:16 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

They need to accept that the Jesus angle isn't working for him.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:17 AM on February 11, 2016

He's also obsessed with abortion. Some just needs to tell him about the Hyde amendment
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:17 AM on February 11, 2016

PIZZA
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:17 AM on February 11, 2016

Pizza!
posted by Lyme Drop at 10:17 AM on February 11, 2016

yes, NoMich
posted by nadawi at 10:17 AM on February 11, 2016

Fry: I'm just tired of living here.
posted by RedEmma at 10:17 AM on February 11, 2016

oh for fuck's sake, give him a pizza
posted by pyramid termite at 10:17 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

He says he's pointing a gun at his head.
posted by Miko at 10:17 AM on February 11, 2016

I just heard the news on NPR and rushed home to check out this thread. What is everyone listening to? Their channel looks silent.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:17 AM on February 11, 2016

NoMich: that's the size of it. he's refusing to come out. "I better get a pizza."
posted by namewithoutwords at 10:17 AM on February 11, 2016

David "Tired of living here."
posted by peeedro at 10:17 AM on February 11, 2016

"i've actually pointed a gun to my head"
posted by nadawi at 10:18 AM on February 11, 2016

Pointing gun at his own head. Holy shit, David. Don't do it.
posted by Talez at 10:18 AM on February 11, 2016

oh shit
posted by librarina at 10:18 AM on February 11, 2016

This is the link to the stream.
posted by humanfont at 10:18 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

At the high end of the estimate of prison rape, it's between 12 and 14 percent of men in federal prisons.

To put it in perspective, he's willing to kill himself to avoid a circumstance that is less likely than women experience in their day to day lives.
posted by maxsparber at 10:18 AM on February 11, 2016 [14 favorites]

Yeah, I'm turning off the stream now before this becomes Bud Dwyer.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:18 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

oh, god, he's got a pistol to his head?
posted by pyramid termite at 10:18 AM on February 11, 2016

Oh, God. I do NOT want to hear him shoot himself. But I can't turn it off.
posted by Weeping_angel at 10:18 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh, God. Gavin and KrisAnne are so out of their league here.
posted by Banknote of the year at 10:19 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Leave the gun. Take the pizza.
posted by RakDaddy at 10:19 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Gun to his head, I cant listen, counting on you guys.
posted by madamjujujive at 10:19 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Fry: I need promised protection.
posted by RedEmma at 10:20 AM on February 11, 2016

David: I'd better get a pizza. *laughs*

I knew this was becoming Dog Day Afternoon.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:20 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Why haven't they shut this down yet? Did they forget about it in the excitement?
posted by Weeping_angel at 10:20 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Is it smart to talk over someone with a gun pointed at his head?
posted by Lyme Drop at 10:20 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Jesus is not a magic word that solves problems, guys. Stop bringing up the beloved dead martyr to try and talk down the delusional suicidal guy.
posted by cortex at 10:20 AM on February 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

Fry: I'm tired, everybody.
posted by RedEmma at 10:20 AM on February 11, 2016

At this point, they can probably assure Fry that he will go to a special prison. A psychiatric prison.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:21 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

"I'm tired, everybody." Yeah. Maybe emphasize rest, food, warmth, acceptance, heroism?
posted by Miko at 10:21 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

"i think they're coming in"
posted by nadawi at 10:21 AM on February 11, 2016

Shut up, lady.
posted by Lyme Drop at 10:22 AM on February 11, 2016

Bundy's list of charges.
posted by Talez at 10:22 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

how do they think "blood of christ" prayers are helping?
posted by nadawi at 10:22 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

so this is audio-only?
posted by entropicamericana at 10:22 AM on February 11, 2016

Fry: I'm really confused right now.
posted by RedEmma at 10:22 AM on February 11, 2016

so this is audio-only?

Yes
posted by NoMich at 10:23 AM on February 11, 2016

> Gavin and KrisAnne are praying fervently

I guess it's a sign of how much they believe, that they can't accept that prayer is making the situation worse.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:23 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

yes, audio only
posted by nadawi at 10:23 AM on February 11, 2016

This is a great example on how NOT to talk to a suicidal person.
posted by peeedro at 10:23 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Is David talking to anyone else at the same time? It's hard for me to believe the FBI would let these clowns hang on the line with him so long.
posted by Miko at 10:23 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

He sounds broken.
posted by Lyme Drop at 10:24 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I've been so absorbed that I haven't moved and my thermostat thinks I've left and has turned down the heat.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:24 AM on February 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

Lady, the future is what he's afraid of.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:24 AM on February 11, 2016

the FBI needs a professional negotiator, one who's experienced in talking down suicidal people, on this, not krisanne and gavin ....
posted by pyramid termite at 10:24 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yes, he is on two phones... one is the one we're hearing, and the other is from Fiore/Graham/FBI...
posted by RedEmma at 10:24 AM on February 11, 2016

Talez: Bundy's list of charges.

Ammon or Cliven or Ryan?
posted by bluecore at 10:25 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Fry: all I needed was my marijuana!
posted by RedEmma at 10:25 AM on February 11, 2016

He wants his pot.
posted by peeedro at 10:25 AM on February 11, 2016

"all i wanted was my marijuana"
posted by nadawi at 10:25 AM on February 11, 2016

"All I needed was marijuana! You guys took my marijuana! You wouldn't even let me have that!"

Blames federal government for inability to have drugs, move, get a job.
posted by Miko at 10:25 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

(It is the government's fault for taking his money in taxes so he couldn't move to Oregon to have his weed.)
posted by RedEmma at 10:25 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Ammon or Cliven or Ryan?

Cliven. They've been building his charges for months, looking for a good time to apprehend him.
posted by Talez at 10:26 AM on February 11, 2016

DON'T TELL HIM HE HAS A HUGE AUDIENCE.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:26 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

It is amusing that the current face of the sovcit/militia movement is this pack of loons
posted by zakur at 10:26 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I am so angry the people talking to him right now.
posted by Jalliah at 10:26 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

The weed thing is stemming back to older trouble he got into, not a demand for negotiated weed right here and now.
posted by cortex at 10:26 AM on February 11, 2016

Someone please get David Fry a joint and a pizza.
posted by humanfont at 10:27 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Fry: I don't care about the movement anymore. I'm doing this for me.
posted by RedEmma at 10:27 AM on February 11, 2016

One problem around this Christian approach is that he just voiced disillusionment with Christians who talk the talk but don't "fight." He's perceiving a wedge between the God-talkers and himself, sees them as hypocrites. If they have no legitimacy with him, he won't be affected by their arguments.
posted by Miko at 10:27 AM on February 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

It always comes back to the drug war.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:27 AM on February 11, 2016

It feels like it's way past the point where a professional negotiator should be talking to him instead.
posted by peeedro at 10:27 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

DON'T TELL HIM HE HAS A HUGE AUDIENCE.

They already told him 25,000 people are listening. It sounded like he thought that wasn't actually very much.
posted by Lyme Drop at 10:28 AM on February 11, 2016

9/11
posted by nadawi at 10:28 AM on February 11, 2016

That's just you being selfish.

From the mouth of babes.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 10:28 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

This woman does not get that her whole we must stick together and bible crap is not where his head is at.
posted by Jalliah at 10:28 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

The weed thing is stemming back to older trouble he got into, not a demand for negotiated weed right here and now.

Well, not for the moment.

Remember, five year old--all of his problems, immediately screamed about as if they were life-threatening the instant they pop into his brain, no filter. Demands for weed and a Constitutional Convention are equally likely in the next five minutes.
posted by stevis23 at 10:29 AM on February 11, 2016

Still surprised by this sudden display of non-wussiness Re:Cliven Bundy from the FBI.
posted by Artw at 10:29 AM on February 11, 2016

I wonder if the people talking to him are getting FBI assistance. It sure doesn't seem like it.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:29 AM on February 11, 2016

He has the FBI on the other phone
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:29 AM on February 11, 2016

he's mad at people who are watching football and reality shows instead of getting woke
posted by nadawi at 10:29 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

He has a gun, he is megalomaniac, rapid ups and downs. He will shoot through the tent if it suits an impulse. He is shredded, needs sleep. He needs to be taken, that is the only honorable exit besides self harm.
posted by Oyéah at 10:30 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

He's tired and overwhelmed and young. Don't give him pressure about being a role model. Tell him he can go to a nice quiet basement with a pizza and a comfy sofa and someone baking cookies upstairs.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:30 AM on February 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

I've never before heard a Christian suggest that mortals can in any way lessen God's power.
posted by Evstar at 10:31 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

What this guy needed in his life was a bunch of stoner friends and a $15/hr job delivering pizza, not these religious sovcit nutjobs.
posted by benito.strauss at 10:32 AM on February 11, 2016 [17 favorites]

Ugh, I haven't been able to listen straight through, and just returned, but what happened to Fiore? Why isn't she talking to him? She was doing a much, much better job. Does he not want to talk to her?
posted by taz at 10:32 AM on February 11, 2016

"if you stay right there, your work is over"

omfg krisanne! that sounds blissful to him right now!
posted by nadawi at 10:32 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

im not sure why you would expect these idiots' knowledge of theology to be any better than their knowledge of the Constitution.
posted by entropicamericana at 10:32 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

fiore is likely on the other line.
posted by nadawi at 10:33 AM on February 11, 2016

Fry: I'm just going to chill here for a little bit...

He's lying down in "the bed"
posted by RedEmma at 10:33 AM on February 11, 2016

Light a trashcan full of weed just outside the encampment.
posted by Lyme Drop at 10:33 AM on February 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

"Sit up?!" No! Laying down was a great idea. Dollars to doughnuts he would fall asleep, especially if one of them was smart enough to drone on about something soothing.
posted by Miko at 10:33 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Still surprised by this sudden display of non-wussiness Re:Cliven Bundy from the FBI.
posted by Artw at 10:29 AM on February 11 [+] [!]

It's almost like the FBI has had a plan all along while Team No Charges went on and on and on and fucking on about the kid gloves.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 10:33 AM on February 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

What a psychic rollercoaster David is on. I'm scared for him.
posted by Lyme Drop at 10:34 AM on February 11, 2016

He's tired. Exhausted most likely.
posted by Jalliah at 10:34 AM on February 11, 2016

I wonder if he's taken any pills since the others walked out.
posted by Evstar at 10:34 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fry is talking to Mark about how he's not safe walking out.
posted by RedEmma at 10:35 AM on February 11, 2016

Yes. Talk to the FBI.
posted by Lyme Drop at 10:36 AM on February 11, 2016

The issue "team no charges" has is that the lack of charges emboldened the very act we have been witnessing for two threads now
posted by MysticMCJ at 10:36 AM on February 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

david is talking to the fbi. he says he doesn't think he's safe to leave. he doesn't want to risk going to jail.
posted by nadawi at 10:36 AM on February 11, 2016

Dollars to doughnuts he would fall asleep, especially if one of them was smart enough to drone on about something soothing.

Get the 101st Tactical ASMR Unit on the line!
posted by robocop is bleeding at 10:36 AM on February 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

david sounds weird - tired, drugged?
posted by nadawi at 10:36 AM on February 11, 2016

If he crashes and passes out they can take him, he got to be running on fumes
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:36 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

"i'm not a bad guy. i shouldn't have warrants out on me"
posted by nadawi at 10:37 AM on February 11, 2016

HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT YOUR CHILD.
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:37 AM on February 11, 2016

I don't usually feel violent but I metaphorically want to punch this woman.
posted by Jalliah at 10:38 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

back to krisanne's kid for some fucking reason
posted by nadawi at 10:38 AM on February 11, 2016

What this guy needed in his life was a bunch of stoner friends and a $15/hr job delivering pizza, not these religious sovcit nutjobs.

Ain't that the ever-lovin' truth.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:38 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

KrisAnn is obviously lying to him about free passage, and he’s having none of it.
posted by nicepersonality at 10:38 AM on February 11, 2016

If KrisAnne was a responsible person AT ALL she would instruct him to talk to Mark and just leave the fucking phone on.
posted by RedEmma at 10:38 AM on February 11, 2016

But her ego and Gavin's interests are too great.
posted by RedEmma at 10:38 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

"i am not a christian!"
posted by nadawi at 10:38 AM on February 11, 2016

Krisanne is losing her temper and getting more shrill at David. Somebody get her the hell off the phone!
posted by TungstenChef at 10:39 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'd pay real money if KrisAnne would shut up. I wonder if she takes paypal.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:39 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Do we have any idea when/how much _any_ of these people have been sleeping? I mean, with only Fry left, surely he's gotta crash eventually, and when he does, he's gonna crash hard. Keep him from killing himself for a few hours and the FBI could come in and draw dicks on his face without waking him.
posted by jackbishop at 10:39 AM on February 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

Why I would be a bad negotiator: "Well then you shouldn't committing an armed insurrection!"

No I don't do great with my five year old either
posted by stevis23 at 10:39 AM on February 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

Did they just figure out to shut up?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:41 AM on February 11, 2016

Nope
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:41 AM on February 11, 2016

HE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT YOUR CHILD.

Here a narcissist, there a narcissist, everywhere a narcissist, narcissist...
posted by Trochanter at 10:42 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

It seems to me that having someone who he will talk to and has a connection with is more important at this point. Keep him talking until he wears down.
posted by humanfont at 10:42 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

david, "what's that noise? i hope it's just the wind, i hope you guys aren't trying to attack me"
posted by nadawi at 10:42 AM on February 11, 2016

David appears to be there for way more reasons then these SOVcits people and I think they don't know what to do with the things he's saying now because it's not their thing.
posted by Jalliah at 10:42 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Rock a bye baby
Under the tarp...
posted by Oyéah at 10:43 AM on February 11, 2016

David is telling the FBI that he'll kill himself if they try to take him.
posted by peeedro at 10:43 AM on February 11, 2016

"if i hear something i'm going to do it, i might just do it. [...] i'm going to kill myself, i'm not coming out alive"
posted by nadawi at 10:44 AM on February 11, 2016

"ufos are real"
posted by nadawi at 10:45 AM on February 11, 2016

Aliens?
posted by Seamus at 10:46 AM on February 11, 2016

David appears to be there for way more reasons then these SOVcits people...

I think it's more a case of a young, unstable person finding themselves wayyyyyyyy in over their head and having a serious mental breakdown. It's a brain-dump while having a melt-down.
posted by Thorzdad at 10:46 AM on February 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

Fundamentally, this guy just isn't going to change his mind. Every time he's acted like he agrees there's some thing someone could do to change his mind, and they then present him with what he asked for, he has a new thing. It's literally a never-ending litany of goalpost moving.

Also, UFOs. So, yeah.
posted by tocts at 10:46 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Dangit, the UFO talk hits while I can't listen to the feed.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 10:47 AM on February 11, 2016

KrisAnne is a horrible person.
posted by benito.strauss at 10:48 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

KrisAnne is getting tired of his shit, but keeps telling him he has "two choices" which is a fucking mistake.
posted by RedEmma at 10:48 AM on February 11, 2016

The UFO are proof that the government lies, and there was something about a secret invention law which helped hide free solar energy and that's why we're dependent on oil. If I was following right.
posted by peeedro at 10:49 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

krisanne - "i cannot help you if you don't walk out" harps on how long it's been. she needs to hang up.
posted by nadawi at 10:49 AM on February 11, 2016

Perhaps he's deliberately building his insanity defense.
posted by zakur at 10:49 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fry: I don't care what people think of me.
posted by RedEmma at 10:49 AM on February 11, 2016

David appears to be there for way more reasons then these SOVcits people

I'm guessing that the promise of weed and a father figure drew Fry to Oregon more than anything else.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:49 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

"i don't have anything else to offer you" - krisanne, worst suicide helpline person ever.
posted by nadawi at 10:50 AM on February 11, 2016 [21 favorites]

They need to swap her out for someone who can talking about Warcraft expansions, upcoming anime, and Magic the Gathering spoilers.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 10:51 AM on February 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

God help me, I legit feel sad for David Fry.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:52 AM on February 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

"i wish i had a chance to talk to a real muslim cleric"
posted by nadawi at 10:52 AM on February 11, 2016

Ah, here we go, back to what he was saying on his web site before he scrubbed it.
posted by NoMich at 10:52 AM on February 11, 2016

David's not coming out until we fix the world.
posted by valkane at 10:53 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

He mentioned at one point having an experience with cops in the past where they gave him grief for being a Ron Paul supporter, also telling Mark that because Obama's a traitor, being loyal to him as commander in chief makes him suspect.

Regardless, hearing David listen and talk to non-audible Mark is a huge improvement over Gavin and KrisAnne.
posted by cortex at 10:54 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

David Fry is now my image for one of those "either Trump or Bernie, whichever" voters.
posted by benito.strauss at 10:54 AM on February 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

The bottom line is, Fry is very disturbed, and doesn't see much of a future at all. And, he isn't wrong. I really feel for the guy, and I feel selfishly glad that he is not my patient. It would keep me up at night. His risk of suicide is very high.
posted by OmieWise at 10:54 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

"if you knew my personal situation [...] you have to stop chemically mutating people"
posted by nadawi at 10:54 AM on February 11, 2016

Is he talking to the FBI negotiator right now? This sounds way more promising than the prayer warrior lady.
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:54 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

i'm seriously hoping some people are sneaking up on his position right now - i don't see it ending any other way
posted by pyramid termite at 10:54 AM on February 11, 2016

God help me, I legit feel sad for David Fry.

I don't think this is inappropriate at this point. I feel very sad for him too. He's messed up.
posted by Jalliah at 10:54 AM on February 11, 2016

And Fry's a perfect example of how people get drawn into all this garbage. It's not because they've thought it through and think it's a good way to run a railroad, it's because they're angry and alienated and have made messes of their lives.
posted by octobersurprise at 10:55 AM on February 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

Hallelujah!
posted by valkane at 10:56 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm impressed the cigarette supply held out this long.
posted by peeedro at 10:57 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Hallelujah!!!
posted by Jalliah at 10:57 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I mean, he's definitely going to prison. Suicide is the leading cause of death in prisons, and plenty of people have killed themselves to avoid a prison sentence -- most famously, Aaron Schwartz, arguably Lenny Bruce.

I mean, this is about as delicate a moment as I can imagine, and, oh my God, KrisAnne does not respect it.
posted by maxsparber at 10:57 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

And he's in custody.
posted by peeedro at 10:58 AM on February 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

It's over. Thank fuck it's over.
posted by Talez at 10:58 AM on February 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

David has surrendered.
posted by RedEmma at 10:58 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Hallelujah!
posted by benito.strauss at 10:58 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

OMG he's doing it!!!!
posted by Jalliah at 10:58 AM on February 11, 2016

Hallelujah!
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:58 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Hallelujah!
posted by OverlappingElvis at 10:58 AM on February 11, 2016

HE WALKED OUT
posted by nadawi at 10:58 AM on February 11, 2016

He did it!!!!!!!
posted by valkane at 10:58 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Hallelujah.
posted by humanfont at 10:58 AM on February 11, 2016

We're all crying, right? Not just me?
posted by The corpse in the library at 10:58 AM on February 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

If he walks out after the hallelujah, he is the world's biggest troll and deserves a medal for it.
posted by Seamus at 10:58 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Hallelujah!
posted by sparklemotion at 10:58 AM on February 11, 2016

Whew.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 10:59 AM on February 11, 2016

OH GOD. Thank goodness it's over.

KrisAnne and Gavin are definitely going to take credit
posted by Miko at 10:59 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Damn.
posted by Seamus at 10:59 AM on February 11, 2016

Hallelujah!
posted by figurant at 10:59 AM on February 11, 2016

Also, way to go Mark the FBI Agent.
posted by benito.strauss at 10:59 AM on February 11, 2016 [12 favorites]

Oh, good!
posted by OmieWise at 10:59 AM on February 11, 2016

Thank fucking Christ.
posted by RakDaddy at 10:59 AM on February 11, 2016

Now I don't have to listen to KrisAnne anymore.
posted by figurant at 10:59 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Damn. That went about as well as could be expected.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:59 AM on February 11, 2016

That is really not the way I expected this to end, and it's a big relief.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:00 AM on February 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

OMG, hallelujah. It's been a long 41 days.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 11:00 AM on February 11, 2016

KrisAnne is crying, but she can go fuck herself, and I'm never listening to Gavin Seim ever again.
posted by RedEmma at 11:00 AM on February 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

Goodbye Kris Anne and Gavin, may I never hear your voices again.
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:00 AM on February 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

Oh lord. Thank goodness. I mean, these are not good guys, but I'm not such a bad guy that I wanted this to end so squalidly, so sadly, and so stupidly.
posted by maxsparber at 11:00 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Having sympathy pizza now. Sending hope vibes.
posted by Oyéah at 11:00 AM on February 11, 2016

So no one died today? Well done, honestly, FBI. Very nice work. Also, you, too, Ms. Fiore.

As gross a job as it will be to go through it, I am curious what they'll find in that now-ruined squat building.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:00 AM on February 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

krisanne "i need a hottub and a massage" oh fuck you.
posted by nadawi at 11:00 AM on February 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

KrisAnne and Gavin are definitely going to take credit

Both of them need a jail cell.
posted by Talez at 11:00 AM on February 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

I honestly think he might be less of a suicide risk after sleep and a shower. He never came across as terrifically stable, but I imagine one of the reasons the last few hours have been this irrational is that he's completely exhausted, weary and cold.
posted by jackbishop at 11:01 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Huh. There must be something to this professionally trained negotiator thing...
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:01 AM on February 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

*pours hot chocolate on krisanne's head*

oh, wait, that's not what you meant is it?
posted by pyramid termite at 11:01 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Now arrest Krisanne for interfering. She's horrible.
posted by T.D. Strange at 11:01 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

KrisAnne: "I need a hot tub and a massage!" Hard day fighting for freedom, amirite?
posted by Miko at 11:01 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Did he actually ask for people to say hallelujah and then he came out once they did? Was it clear what prompted him to ask for something they could deliver this time - like did this idea come from him talking the FBI negotiator?
posted by LobsterMitten at 11:01 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

He never came across as terrifically stable

He desperately needs some kind of community to belong to, as well as a real, internal sense of self-worth.
posted by Miko at 11:02 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'd love to know what Mark said to finally get him to walk. It happened pretty quick once the radio yahoos shut-up.
posted by Jalliah at 11:02 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Gavin: "It's a shame our country has come to a point where---"

--And fuuuuuuuck you. Let's rejoice in never having to hear his voice again.
posted by bluecore at 11:02 AM on February 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

Yeah, I wonder what made him walk out. It seemed so sudden.
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:03 AM on February 11, 2016

KrisAnne is giving her academy award speech.
posted by peeedro at 11:03 AM on February 11, 2016

Did he actually ask for people to say hallelujah and then he came out once they did? Was it clear what prompted him to ask for something they could deliver this time - like did this idea come from him talking the FBI negotiator?

It sounded something like that.
posted by Jalliah at 11:03 AM on February 11, 2016

Did he actually ask for people to say hallelujah and then he came out once they did? Was it clear what prompted him to ask for something they could deliver this time - like did this idea come from him talking the FBI negotiator?

LobsterMitten is, of course, asking for a friend, and not because she is a Mod and wants to discover this superpower for her own purposes.
posted by hippybear at 11:04 AM on February 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

KrisAnne: "We could not have done this without the Holy Spirit"

You didn't do diddly, lady.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:04 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

He got the FBI to agree to and comply with one of his demands. His token grievance was addressed.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:04 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

"We are not professionals."

No shit, KrisAnne?
posted by Seamus at 11:04 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Great job. Now, scour the place for evidence, lock all the bastard insurrectionists up for twenty years or more.
posted by stevis23 at 11:05 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

The surrender order made a lot of sense. I think they clearly thought Fry was likely to do this given his sudden radio silence, and Sandy was the enabler for the folie a deux of the Anderson pair, so get her out first, then the two others, and Fry doesn't have anyone physically there to harm or get into another self-reinforcing circle with.
posted by tavella at 11:05 AM on February 11, 2016

KrisAnne: "We are not professionals and we could not have done this without the power of the Holy Spirit, so I want to thank God. In all of this I am nothing, He is everything."

#ChristianHumblebrag
posted by Miko at 11:05 AM on February 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

It really burns my butt that Krisanne and Gavin will milk this for every buck. And they WILL make money.
posted by readery at 11:05 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Remember ... snacks will be with you ... always.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:05 AM on February 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

KGW currently reporting that Fry is schizophrenic and has been off his meds while at the refuge. Not sure how well sourced this is, but I'm surprised it's the first I've heard about it.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 11:05 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Back to watching reruns of Scrubs. Lovely chatting with y'all during this.
posted by johnpowell at 11:06 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

It's almost like the FBI has had a plan all along while Team No Charges went on and on and on and fucking on about the kid gloves.

The plan involved letting an arm seige in a different state get out of hand? That's pretty long rang planning.
posted by Artw at 11:06 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

I just want to tell you both: good luck. We're all counting on you.
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:07 AM on February 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

Lovely chatting with y'all during this.

*shuffles feet*

You know...I'm really gonna miss you guys.
posted by Miko at 11:08 AM on February 11, 2016 [19 favorites]

The plan involved letting an arm seige in a different state get out of hand?

It's 3D chess, dude.
posted by maxsparber at 11:08 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

I would love to have been at the FBI post when the negotiator suddenly says "Everyone yell Hallelujah!" And then Fry walks out.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:08 AM on February 11, 2016 [10 favorites]

Yeah, I think he must have decided to walk out before asking for that Hallelujah. It was just the handshake with the opposing team after the game is done.
posted by benito.strauss at 11:09 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

That's pretty long rang planning.

Well, chances are, if they had kept to their own land and just went on being assholes there, they would have been ignored (maybe?) for a good long while. But once this other thing started, why not do everything you can to get them in situations where their arrest will be peaceful and away from where the last stand-off took place...

It may not be long range planning, but it certainly is understanding the advantage of the current circumstances.
posted by hippybear at 11:10 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

He sounded like he knew it was a goofy request.
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:10 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Because of the false sense of security given to the periphery over this siege they were able to pick up Cliven, JokerJ, and Blaine Cooper without incident or loss of life. That's some pretty thick icing on top of the cake.
posted by Talez at 11:10 AM on February 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

No one hurt, the Bundys rounded up. I call that a good day.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:10 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Gavin said the F-word: fundraiser.
posted by peeedro at 11:12 AM on February 11, 2016

You know...I'm really gonna miss you guys.

Literally the first thing I thought when I heard the news that something was happening was, "I gotta get home and jump on the MeFi thread."
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:12 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm glad no one got hurt.
posted by marxchivist at 11:12 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

The spoiled 5-year-old act was wearing thin, but that hallelujah gambit was pure gold. Get this kid a shower, a pizza, a pack of smokes and a conviction. Then, when he's out, give him a talk-radio show. Stat.

Kudos to the FBI. They did good today.

I'm so glad we've had this time together. *tugs ear*
posted by valkane at 11:12 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

I was a little tongue in cheek but honestly, I learned a great deal from this thread, including being introduced to SovCit mentality and understanding more about law enforcement operations and nuances that aren't obvious from, er, YouTube comments. I appreciated having our own little campfire here; it enhanced my understanding.
posted by Miko at 11:13 AM on February 11, 2016 [26 favorites]

So who's in for the Mefi Talkin' Sover'n recap podcast?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:14 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

The charges against Cliven Bundy have been released, and it's not just interfering with federal employees, which I thought I had read somewhere:

18 USC 371 - Conspiracy to Commit An Offense Against the United States
18 USC 111(b) - Assault on a Federal Law Enforcement Officer
18 USC 924(c) - Use and Carry of a Firearm In Relation to a Crime of Violence
18 USC 1503 - Obstruction of the Administration of Justice
18 USC 1951 - Interference with Commerce by Extortion
18 USC 2 - Aiding and Abetting
posted by Juffo-Wup at 11:16 AM on February 11, 2016 [16 favorites]

Yeah, a good day, and a good showing once they actually took action. One fatality is not bad at all - nipping it in the bud before it got to that might have resulted in zero fatalities though, and would have been better. And all the concessions pretty much guarantee there will be a next time.
posted by Artw at 11:16 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Agreed with Miko. Even dropping in here only occasionally was educational. Gracias, Metafilter!
posted by Lyme Drop at 11:16 AM on February 11, 2016

On the other hand, I disagree with this analysis.

[edit for clarity: in response to artw, not lyme drop]
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 11:17 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

nipping it in the bud before it got to that might have resulted in zero fatalities though

Eh, I think there was too high a risk with that approach. it might have "nipped it in the bud" but it also carried a high risk of inflaming.
posted by Miko at 11:18 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

the unmedicated thing about fry is interesting, especially taken with his "if you knew my story" followed by "chemically mutating people."
posted by nadawi at 11:18 AM on February 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

I'm really grateful for the liveblogging work y'all have been doing - thank you so much!
posted by rtha at 11:19 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

I am actually glad this ended with the nuts it ended with. We can see the movement for what it is, goofy outliers, the mentally ill and the folks that try to take advantage of them.
posted by readery at 11:20 AM on February 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

The charges against Cliven Bundy have been released, and it's not just interfering with federal employees, which I thought I had read somewhere:

The indictment against him has been under seal for months. The biggest problem with Cliven was apprehending him. Unless he was disarmed it was going to be a shitshow. As soon as Cliven ventured to somewhere where they could ensure he was disarmed it was call the fucking SWAT team.
posted by Talez at 11:20 AM on February 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

He got the FBI to agree to and comply with one of his demands. His token grievance was addressed.

He said, "How about if everyone just says hallelujah. Would you even do that?" And they did, and he walked out. I think he realized he didn't want to die, and at that point, only needed the smallest concession to retain dignity.

Yeah, this is definitely a real tactic (for both sides), and it definitely does work sometimes.

Whussername's "live on to fight on" argument isn't necessarily a bad one of itself, but there must've been someone better to deliver it.

Agent Mark was likely using a version of that one too.
 
posted by Herodios at 11:21 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Thanks to MeFi for a good thread. Thanks to the FBI for a minimum of bloodshed.
posted by infinitewindow at 11:21 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

The charges against Cliven Bundy have been released

Nice. Nice list. I like that list. I think I like 1 best.
posted by Trochanter at 11:23 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

the unmedicated thing about fry is interesting, especially taken with his "if you knew my story" followed by "chemically mutating people."

Yah, the universal conspiracy, UFOs, government enforced body modifications . . . it all sounds depressingly familiar.

IANAD IANAP IANDFD IANDFP
 
posted by Herodios at 11:25 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

As long as they upgrade the other leaders' charges to serious years in jail ones, I'll be reasonably satisfied. I'm fine with some level of go-slow in these engagements in the name of preserving life, as long as people end up in prison for serious time afterwards pour discourager les autres. It's the fact that they let them get away with it at Bundy Ranch that encouraged them expanding their efforts. You saw how fast most of them ran away when the OPB cracked down. Most of the people who showed up believed they were going to get away clean, just like before, and were not actually committed enough to the cause to risk prison. And of course, there's going to be random dissatisfied nuts like Fry who are drawn towards them.

There may still be a hard core that is willing to try this again, but I bet they'll have a lot less in the way of meat shields as long as the feds follow through this time.
posted by tavella at 11:25 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm so unbelievably relieved that the occupation is over - and as much as the cynic in me wants to say "see you all next time," I sincerely hope the opportunity doesn't come up for that.
posted by MysticMCJ at 11:26 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

infinitewindow: Thanks to MeFi for a good thread. Thanks to the FBI for a minimum of bloodshed.

And vice versa: this thread could have gone Very Badly Indeed.
posted by wenestvedt at 11:26 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Good crapping Moses am I glad that ended how it did. I had to walk away literally a minute before the hallelujah situation, so that's a hell of a relief.
posted by cortex at 11:27 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

♫♪Cliven Bundy had a farm♫♪
♫♪notice I said had♫♪
posted by Trochanter at 11:30 AM on February 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

Oh dear lord. I'm at work and when I said it was finally over a woman I work with said I shouldn't be so happy because these people were standing up for my rights.

We are Canadian.

I'm going to sit here and sniffle a bit about discovering that otherwise wonderful person has a loony side I never knew about....

Gah I want to go back to 10mins ago and not have said anything....
posted by Jalliah at 11:32 AM on February 11, 2016 [16 favorites]

You saw how fast most of them ran away when the OPB cracked down.

Just to minimize any confusion for out-of-state folks: OPB=Oregon Public Broadcasting (our PBS affiliate), OSP=Oregon State Police.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 11:35 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

"Oh god, it's a pledge drive, everybody run!"
posted by cortex at 11:36 AM on February 11, 2016 [27 favorites]

Frank Conniff: Now that #Oregonstandoff is over, might not be another racist redneck seizure of government property till Trump moves into the White House.
posted by Atom Eyes at 11:38 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

The charges against Cliven Bundy have been released...

But they spelled his name in all caps, so the charges are actually against his corporate fictionhood not the living, flesh-and-blood free-man.

Did I get that right? Moon law is hard.
posted by zakur at 11:39 AM on February 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

Sorry, typo there! Yes OSP.
posted by tavella at 11:40 AM on February 11, 2016

Flash-and-blood is perfectly correct moonlaw.
posted by valkane at 11:40 AM on February 11, 2016

Speaking of OPB, Malheur National Wildlife Refuge Occupation Ends
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:42 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

OSP

I'm probably the only person who thinks "on site procurement" when I read that, aren't I?
posted by MysticMCJ at 11:42 AM on February 11, 2016

You saw how fast most of them ran away when the OPB cracked down.

OPB=Oregon Public Broadcasting . . . OSP=Oregon State Police

You smile, but just try reneging on your pledge. Just try it.

They just might show you what else a totebag (made of recycled materials, of course) can be used for.
 
posted by Herodios at 11:43 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I wonder if BLM will impound Cliven's cows now.
posted by Talez at 11:44 AM on February 11, 2016

"Actually," he says, adjusting his tricorn hat, "It's flesh and blood natural man. The 'free' is part of being a natural Citizen of America as opposed to a mere resident of the United States."
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:44 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

MysticMCJ - nope.

Glad things worked out without any casualties, though, as I've said before, was far more worried about law enforcement casualties. Still no sympathy for the terrorists, here.

Looking forward to the prosecutions, at this stage.
posted by Archelaus at 11:45 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Gavin's live stream is down to 692 peeps. Heh.
posted by valkane at 11:45 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Thank god that ended without bloodshed. Will be curious to see what additional charges these chuckleheads will face once the damage done to the refuge is assessed.
posted by EatTheWeek at 11:50 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'll see y'all in Oregon Under Attack III - The Sentencing-ing.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 11:59 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm just hoping it doesn't come up as "Oregon under attack - Season 2. Synopsis: Grant County sheriff has unfinished business, clashes with feds"
posted by MysticMCJ at 12:03 PM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

FBI Arrests All Remaining Occupiers at the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge

“The occupation of the Malheur Wildlife Refuge has been a long and traumatic episode for the citizens of Harney County and the members of the Burns Paiute tribe. It is a time for healing, reconciliation amongst neighbors and friends, and allowing for life to get back to normal. I want to thank our neighbors in eastern Oregon for their patience, resolve, and their kind and welcoming spirit to the many members of federal, county, state, local, and tribal law enforcement who have worked tirelessly to bring this illegal occupation to a conclusion. The fine work of so many dedicated public servants in a difficult endeavor cannot be understated. I am very proud of them all,” said Billy J. Williams, U.S. Attorney, District of Oregon.

“Much work is left to assess the crime scene and damage to the refuge and tribal artifacts. We are committed to seeing the job done and to pursue justice for the crimes committed during the illegal occupation.”

posted by octobersurprise at 12:08 PM on February 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

FBI press conference announced for 2pm Pacific.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 12:10 PM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Well that certainly didn't end the way it looked like it was headed. Well played FBI Mark.

And getting Cliven is pretty sweet too. Those are a bunch of significant charges.

And the fact that this "uprising" turned into such a Honeypot will likely sow suspicion among the conspiracy minded moon law followers. Which might be bad or good.
posted by Windopaene at 12:20 PM on February 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

You should see me dance about paying taxes to jail Cliven. Really, I am so happy he finally got nabbed.

Hats off to the F.B.I. for showing restraint and giving them enough rope to hang themselves.
posted by johnpowell at 12:39 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

A couple things I'm thinking about:

1. I can only hope a Broadway comedy musical comes out of this thing. Even more than one.

2. Also an SNL skit focusing on the guys sitting in the MRAP during all this.

3. The FBI either does not have the technological superpowers we think they do (re: turning off phones/comms/websites for immediate effect ... or sending agents out to give talkings-to when people should be getting them) or they are finally learning to let people hoist themselves by their own petard with social media.

4. The cultural ramifications of livestreaming of events like this... I can't even figure out what I think about that. It's complex and will only get to be more, right? More and more people will use social media in this way to "get famous" for their crimes. In re: activism, a smart movement (which this one is not, obv.) will be careful to focus their media from a single point. Problem is (from the leader POV) everyone wants their fifteen minutes and to exercise their first amendment rights. You won't be able to stop it, and it will lead to big problems down the road, for movements I support and those I want to see crash and burn.
posted by RedEmma at 1:27 PM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Welp. 41 days and this all went down while I was asleep! Stupid time difference.

It's been fun, y'all. For us, anyway.

Hope the FBI guys are popping champagne. They earned it.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 1:42 PM on February 11, 2016

LOLPatriots.

Looking forward to seeing the lot of them jailed.
posted by spitbull at 1:46 PM on February 11, 2016

Oregon Under Attack III - The Sentencing-ing

I'm looking forward to the third thread having this exact title.

Thanks for all the work you guys put into this one, I was only able to periodically pop in and check up on the live commenting. So glad this ended without more deaths, but yes I am also glad to pay my tax to keep these assholes in jail.
posted by numaner at 1:47 PM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm not sure about a musical, but that's probably just a lack of imagination on my part. I could easily imagine a season of Fargo, complete with the Sandy&Sean dancing interlude, doing a version of the occupation. Though their version would contain even more madness and probably bloodshed at the end.

I think streaming overall will be a good thing. I kept thinking how Waco could have been different if there had been streaming coming from within the compound. Keeps the FBI and other agencies honest to a degree.

Though the unfortunate side effect would be Koresh creating a whole new fanbase and receiving tons of sympathy. It's one thing when it's just relatively harmless Fry. But when someone with true leadership and charisma is under siege from the FBI for perfectly good reasons... I don't know what the fallout would be.

Fortunately, the people in the US involved in this sort of movement don't understand the technology or the society well enough to exploit a wide audience. But it's just a matter of time. The next Ammon Bundy will take Fry's cell phone, tell him to shut up, and do all the streaming himself, rather than limiting himself to press conferences.
posted by honestcoyote at 1:48 PM on February 11, 2016

1. I can only hope a Broadway comedy musical comes out of this thing. Even more than one.

THE BOOK OF MORON
INTO THE WOODS (AND WE'RE NOT LEAVING)
A FUNNY THING HAPPENED ON THE WAY TO THE REFUGE : THE CLIVEN BUNDY STORY
HOW TO SUCCEED IN CONSPIRACY WITHOUT REALLY TRYING
THE LAST FIVE WEEKS
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 1:49 PM on February 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

OKLAHOMA!

Wait, am I doing it wrong?
posted by spitbull at 2:00 PM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

New indictments: Cooper, JokerJ, and several of Pop Bundy's bodyguards. The redacted names may suggest that there are more to come.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:00 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

FBI presser starting shortly
posted by mochapickle at 2:00 PM on February 11, 2016

Alternate KATU link
posted by mochapickle at 2:04 PM on February 11, 2016

the KATU link is working for me, the msnbc flash thing for KSNT suuuucks
posted by numaner at 2:06 PM on February 11, 2016

Protester outside US Courthouse in Portland where Cliven is being arraigned.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:07 PM on February 11, 2016

Looks like I picked the wrong time to go to bed.

What an amazing thread, reading the liveblogging tonight was an amazing experience, and I live in England so this has absolutely no relevance in any way whatsoever. Glad to see Fry gave himself up in the end, and it all ended without any bloodshed.
posted by marienbad at 2:07 PM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

So, is that Mark (the guy in maroon?)?? Or is he off drinking beer and getting backslaps?
posted by RedEmma at 2:10 PM on February 11, 2016

That's FBI Special Agent in Charge Greg Breizing
posted by mochapickle at 2:11 PM on February 11, 2016

We. Want. Mark. We. Want. Mark.
posted by RedEmma at 2:12 PM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

(Though I suppose exposing his face would also expose him to nutjob assassins.)
posted by RedEmma at 2:12 PM on February 11, 2016

In any case, if I were a news media talking head, an interview with Mark would be my holy grail right now.
posted by RedEmma at 2:14 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sheriff Ward is making me cry.
posted by mochapickle at 2:15 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sheriff Ward, an American hero.
posted by Oyéah at 2:16 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Argh religious people argh
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:16 PM on February 11, 2016

Let's imagine our future hopeful docu-drama "Where Are They Now" end-frames.

I'll start:

"David Fry converted to Islam while in prison, and has learned to manage his mental illness with medication. He is currently developing a film on the alien conspiracy at Roswell, NM."
posted by RedEmma at 2:19 PM on February 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

That man is saying some things that really need to be said.
posted by Seamus at 2:20 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Judge Grasty became a Guinness world record holder for owning the most yellow shirts."
posted by mochapickle at 2:22 PM on February 11, 2016

Dumb, but Joe Isuzu giving the presser.
posted by Trochanter at 2:23 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Let's imagine our future hopeful docu-drama "Where Are They Now" end-frames

Sandy took media classes while in jail and, after her release began hosting her own youtube chat show. She is now has a nationally syndicated chat show and has interviewed politicians and celebrities.
posted by marienbad at 2:23 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oooh, coy smile with "We're not going to get into that at this point" about the videos.
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:23 PM on February 11, 2016

Ammon Bundy is enjoying his new career as a professional potato.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 2:24 PM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Durn. Missed the presser.

Got home and just saw the last few seconds.
posted by Jalliah at 2:25 PM on February 11, 2016

ammon bundy is enjoying his new career as president of the sagebrush republic after the breakup of the united states in 2023
posted by pyramid termite at 2:25 PM on February 11, 2016

Jalliah - its on flashalert
posted by marienbad at 2:27 PM on February 11, 2016

Jeff Banta served 20 years of a 5 year sentence when no one noticed that he was still in the prison.
posted by Seamus at 2:28 PM on February 11, 2016 [23 favorites]

Jalliah - its on flashalert

Thank you!
posted by Jalliah at 2:29 PM on February 11, 2016

Ammon Bundy passed away in his sleep at the Florence Supermax facility.
posted by spitbull at 2:33 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

At the same time, the FBI is deploying experts with its Art Crime Team to work on the refuge. These agents are specially-trained in cultural property investigations. They will be responsible for working with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service and the Burns Paiute Tribe to identify and document damage to the tribe's artifacts and sacred burial grounds.

They will start with an archeological field assessment to determine any potential violations of the Native American Graves and Repatriation Protection Act (NAGPRA) and the Archeological Resources Protection Act (ARPA). This work will likely take a number of weeks to complete.

Fuck yeah. I have not seen the phrase "cultural property investigations" used by Law Enforcement before. I want this issue not forgotten and any damage or violation fully prosecuted.
posted by spitbull at 2:36 PM on February 11, 2016 [19 favorites]

Cliven Bundy on his death bunk was overjoyed to catch sight of his 72 nieces waiting on the edge of heaven, but no, the dream changed and it was a large murder of crows, magically he found himself flying.
posted by Oyéah at 2:39 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Sean Anderson was recruited by Weight Watchers: Prison Edition when it was launched, and a new brand of snack bar bears his image. He hopes to re-open his outdoor gear shop, especially focusing on wind-resistant, Finecum-inspired tarps."
posted by RedEmma at 2:44 PM on February 11, 2016

At the same time, the FBI is deploying experts with its Art Crime Team to work on the refuge.

They have some time, now that Hannibal is over.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 2:45 PM on February 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

FBI is deploying experts with its Art Crime Team Sean Anderson will face extra charges for bending over a web camera, and being filmed looking down while gloating, a serious affront to documentary style.
posted by Oyéah at 2:51 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yes, if the art crime people are good at their jobs the Sharp/Flat Family Singers will never be heard from again.
posted by spitbull at 2:53 PM on February 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

Art ... CRIME ... TEAM!?!? Holy smokes that rules.

[writes pilot episode on spec]
posted by EatTheWeek at 3:03 PM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

"Victoria Sharp signed a multi-million dollar deal for a series of movies based on her best-selling novels, The Vampire Patriots."
posted by octobersurprise at 3:11 PM on February 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

Interesting article on negotiator tactics.

"There’s something called the surrender ritual. It says: I can’t just give up — there has to be some type of compromise, so I come out a winner, even though the government also is a winner."
posted by bluecore at 3:41 PM on February 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

So someone has to tell me what that song was that Sean A. played just before his surrender. Because now it's going to drive me crazy. We know it's not the Braveheart theme, but it had bagpipes and a singer.
posted by RedEmma at 3:42 PM on February 11, 2016

i think it was the vogon national anthem
posted by pyramid termite at 3:48 PM on February 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

Art ... CRIME ... TEAM!?!? Holy smokes that rules.

They've had a team for many years. There's BIG money in art theft and forgery.
posted by Thorzdad at 3:57 PM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

> There's BIG money in art theft and forgery

Projects is over that way ->
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:03 PM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

A nice hour-long audio wrap up on OPB: Reactions to the End of the Occupation.
posted by RedEmma at 4:26 PM on February 11, 2016

Thanks all you great people for keeping me informed while I was working! I logged on and followed the news from everyone while I could between work jobs. So Fry pulled a "Tinkerbell" ! If we all just shouted Hallelujah! (and some of you did) he would appear and give himself up. My colleague was both amused and perhaps slightly afraid of my occasional mumblings of "What the fusk?? !"

Anyhow we now return you to your normally scheduled life....
posted by AGameOfMoans at 4:28 PM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

According to the indictment of Cliven Bundy they will also be charging 4 of the major leaders from occupation with the same charges as Cliven. These look to be pretty hefty charges with the possibility of a very long time in prison.

At the press conference the FBI also seemed to indicate that more charges will be comming once they've finished documenting the crime scene at the refuge.
posted by humanfont at 4:37 PM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Miko: "David's grievances: his taxes are going toward abortion."

Well now that he is likely to spend a lengthy time in prison that won't be a problem.
posted by Mitheral at 4:46 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well, *I'm* going to shout "Hallelujah" if they have decided to get serious with all these guys.
posted by tavella at 4:46 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Two of the defendants remain at large. Each defendant is charged in the indictment with one felony count of conspiracy to impede officers of the United States from discharging their official duties through the use of force, intimidation, or threats.

Blaine Cooper, 36, of Humboldt, Arizona
Wesley Kjar, 32, of Utah
Corey Lequieu, 44, of Fallon, Nevada
Neil Wampler, 68, of Los Osos, California
Jason Charles Blomgren, 41, of Murphy, North Carolina
Darryl William Thorn, 31, of Marysville, Washington
2 blanked out names are here in the latest PDF
Eric Lee Flores, 22, of Tuallip Washington

It is an interesting list because while all these people were at the refuge many arrived later and didn't stay long. The list could use reordering because Cooper and Kjar were in the initial wave. Lequieu and Wampler arrived after a week and just hung out mainly. Blomgren, (joker j) I didn't think he was staying at the refuge but was just a big III% / good news patriot booster. He was more involved in rallying militia elements in Burns. Thorn had the cut off jean jacket with a big III patch on the back arrived half way through and left within a week, but was a booster outside as well. Flores (I think) arrived near the end and did a bunch of front gate security and was held out as "see black people support us too".
posted by phoque at 4:56 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Blomgren, (joker j) I didn't think he was staying at the refuge but was just a big III% / good news patriot booster.

Joker J is arrested under 2014 charges for the standoff (being Cliven's bodyguard) not occupying the federal refuge.
posted by Talez at 5:01 PM on February 11, 2016

It would be funny if the U.S. attorney threw in a couple of John Does as blanked out names just to keep all of the militants paranoid and hunkered down instead of actively on the road protesting. I bet there are a lot of people out there sweating right now wondering if they are about to be arrested.
posted by JackFlash at 5:11 PM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Miko: "David's grievances: his taxes are going toward abortion."

Well now that he is likely to spend a lengthy time in prison that won't be a problem.


What are the odds that he's contributed more in lifetime taxes than he has cost the people (I Mean The Amurrican People) in just this little doofus stunt? Fuck him and his taxes. As far as I know the only job he ever held was in his dad's dental practice.
posted by spitbull at 5:14 PM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Okay found a captioned picture of Eric Lee Flores, he wasn't who I thought and I don't know anything about him.
posted by phoque at 5:15 PM on February 11, 2016

The Martrydom of LaVoy Finicum: What the Newest ‘Patriot’ Sainthood Means for the Rest of Us
posted by the man of twists and turns at 5:19 PM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Well Tulalip is a Tribal reservation, he looks Native American, (and also totally baked)
posted by Windopaene at 5:19 PM on February 11, 2016

I think this list may indicate the sweep is going wide. Because I can think of a half dozen people who were more involved than a couple of the indited. And if they are going back to the Bundy ranch standoff and the other acts of defiance toward land protections, the group could get large.
posted by phoque at 5:25 PM on February 11, 2016

What are the odds that he's contributed more in lifetime taxes than he has cost the people (I Mean The Amurrican People) in just this little doofus stunt?

Given the costs of detaining someone in a supermax prison for 20 years? Zero.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 5:31 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

"Hi Officer, is it safe to go back in now?"
posted by soundguy99 at 5:34 PM on February 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

See I want to caption that sweet little owl picture "Don't tase me, bro!"

Owls are kind of assholes though. Maybe he's asking forcefully if he is "being detained?" Because he is surely pointing out that he is not a person.
posted by spitbull at 5:38 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Someone on Twitter has termed the dingbats the "Ranch Stupidians" and it's sticking
posted by AGameOfMoans at 5:39 PM on February 11, 2016 [9 favorites]

"Ranch Stupidians" has a nice ring. I didn't get the joke with "Vanilla ISIS" until I heard it out loud.
posted by EatTheWeek at 5:51 PM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Given the costs of detaining someone in a supermax prison for 20 years? Zero.

I realize that this is secondary to your point, but would Fry necessarily be going to a SuperMax?
posted by Going To Maine at 5:54 PM on February 11, 2016

Looks like the average cost of federal incarceration per year i around $30K, so even if not Supermax? Still no.
posted by Miko at 6:01 PM on February 11, 2016

I realize that this is secondary to your point, but would Fry necessarily be going to a SuperMax?

That's a very good point. He might well belong in a mental health unit. Even if he's not mentally ill, he's probably not much of a threat to anyone except himself, and so may end up in a lower security facility. Still expensive though.

Turns out there's only one Federal supermax - Florence ADX in Colorado. It sounds pretty awful. But then, Fry is no Timothy McVeigh.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:44 PM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I fully expect Fry to be livestreaming his day to day prison life confounding prison officials and guards as to how he goes about it.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:02 PM on February 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

The article posted by bluecore is a fascinating and short read that really increases understanding of the FBI tactics - everything from why they did not rush in early ("The federal government has learned, since Waco, infinite patience."), why they allowed Fiore to negotiate ("There’s always room for a third-party negotiator. It can create this sense of win-win"), why the Cliven arrest went down as it did, and other interesting elements of the tale.
posted by Miko at 7:05 PM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Where the heck did this whole supermax thing come from? There's absolutely no reason that Fry would be housed at Florence.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 7:13 PM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

The fake Grand Jury is still sending out edicts. Next few days will be really interesting to see how the militants remaining react, more to Cliven's arrest and any more forthcoming charges against Ammo & company than the end of the standoff per se, it's clear they had little love for the final 4 hold outs. But Cliven was their guiding light.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:17 PM on February 11, 2016

"The federal government has learned, since Waco, infinite patience."

What forced the FBI's hand yesterday was that Fry made the mistake of going on a ATV joy ride beyond the secured perimeter. They were prepared to wait them out as long as they stayed safely in the perimeter. Keep in mind that there are ranchers living in houses and working less than half a mile from their camp. They weren't about to let armed militants endanger the lives of civilians. Fry's stupid joy ride precipitated the end of infinite patience and yesterday's confrontation.
posted by JackFlash at 7:20 PM on February 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

Is that a guess or something sourced?
posted by Bugbread at 7:25 PM on February 11, 2016

Yeah, I saw that allegation about the ATV earlier but no verification of it.

The linked article talks about forcing an "emotional crisis," which the MRAPS seem to have been intended to do.
posted by Miko at 7:30 PM on February 11, 2016

What forced the FBI's hand yesterday was that Fry made the mistake of going on a ATV joy ride beyond the secured perimeter. They were prepared to wait them out as long as they stayed safely in the perimeter. Keep in mind that there are ranchers living in houses and working less than half a mile from their camp. They weren't about to let armed militants endanger the lives of civilians. Fry's stupid joy ride precipitated the end of infinite patience and yesterday's confrontation.

In the Q&A after the press conference, the lead FBI agent said something about the militant on the ATV having seen some agents moving around. I took that to mean that the person (Fry, was it?) had seen agents in hidden positions or moving into the buildings, so with the element of surprise removed they moved in closer. But so far it is all speculation based on very incomplete information.

One of the final sections in the FBI's statement was about how even the investigation and crime scene analysis will be structured to be sensitive to tribal cultural resources concerns:

In particular, we know that the people of the Burns Paiute Tribe have specific concerns about the potential desecration of their ancestral lands and artifacts dating back thousands of years. As we complete the necessary safety checks and process the crime scene, we will work with the tribal members to ensure that our work remains sensitive to their historical and cultural concerns.

Cultural resource violations are not trivial, and the militants may end up facing some very serious charges on that front alone, including some of the people who just came for short visits and weren't armed.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:38 PM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

This OPB story also confirms the ATV incident:

OPB learned that militant David Fry’s increasingly erratic behavior caused the FBI to surround the compound Wednesday evening.

Law enforcement said in a press release they saw one occupier drive an ATV outside barricades established by the militants. An official speaking on background confirmed that person was Fry.

The FBI also said agents attempted to approach Fry when he passed the barricade, but Fry sped back toward the militants’ camp.

posted by Miko at 7:43 PM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Mugshots of the Final Four, specially dedicated to Team No Charges.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 7:44 PM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

I don't like the way that Sean is eyeballing Fry
posted by AGameOfMoans at 7:47 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm really glad they're all alive.

I wish there was a way to educate them out of their mindset.
posted by Trochanter at 7:51 PM on February 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

Whoa, Jeff could be in the reboot of Sons of Anarchy.
posted by valkane at 7:53 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well, they all could really.
posted by valkane at 7:56 PM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

They look so full of sad realization, and exhaustion. I hope they can find healing. Out of reach of those who would use them for various agendas, maybe they will be able to go home sometime soon, to the country they love, in a better frame of mind, and more realistic frame of reference. That won't be this week.
posted by Oyéah at 7:59 PM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I was interested to know what other Titles there were in the USC, so looked on wikipedia. Title 22 is, uh, interesting. Also surely they are in violation of 43 USC 25 ?
posted by marienbad at 8:00 PM on February 11, 2016

If you're at all interested in the timeline of events, and the decision to move/not move against militants after the 2014 standoff, definitely read the interview linked to by miko and bluecore:

I think there are going to be people who say: “If you arrested and charged and imprisoned them back then, we wouldn’t be facing this today.” If the U.S. attorney does not authorize an arrest, the FBI’s hands are tied. The U.S. attorney’s office has prosecutorial discretion.

This reminds me of a quote from the former superintendent of Lake Mead National Recreation Area, who reported that a planned 1996 operation to remove Bundy's trespassing cattle from NPS lands was cancelled at the last minute:

He said the operation was called off at the last minute amid veiled threats similar to those made against government workers last month.

“We were ready to go. The U.S. attorney’s office told us to back off. We backed off.”

I have no idea when the FBI was authorized to arrest Cliven Bundy for the 2014 standoff, but, historically at least, a US attorney's office seems at least partially responsible for inaction.

On a completely unrelated note, I want to share two fabulous photos from the production of Michele Fiore's movie: juggling and a patriotic ultralight aircraft.

But the bizarro-world gets even more bizarre. This is from the production journal on her movie website:

09.11.01 September 11th 2001. Location: Keys on the Green, Evergreen, Colorado. Michele Fiore-Kaime and writer Robert Gosnell are taking a meeting when news hits of the tragedy of 9/11. They are literally shaking hands while the planes are crashing. They have to seriously question whether to proceed with the project. But they ultimately decide that an upbeat story about following your dreams and never giving up is more important than ever.

Yes, you read that correctly. Michele Fiore actually used 9/11 to justify the production of Siren, a million-dollar, self-financed movie in which she played the main character.
posted by compartment at 8:16 PM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Where the heck did this whole supermax thing come from? There's absolutely no reason that Fry would be housed at Florence.

Complete and total assumption on my part, probably incorrect, nothing more.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 8:18 PM on February 11, 2016

Those Siren pics are fantastic.. The band look like some sort of Goth/C&W crossover. Now the 50 Shades reference makes a lot more sense.
posted by marienbad at 8:35 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I was interested to know what other Titles there were in the USC, so looked on wikipedia. Title 22 is, uh, interesting. Also surely they are in violation of 43 USC 25 ?

Probably. The conspiracy charge is only to keep them in one place where necessary while the prosecution figures out what else they want to go for and what they think they can make stick. They've only gotten back into the refuge to clean up and gather evidence. The process will probably take weeks if not months and all involved can probably expect a landslide of charges.

I have no idea when the FBI was authorized to arrest Cliven Bundy for the 2014 standoff, but, historically at least, a US attorney's office seems at least partially responsible for inaction.

As soon as you arrest someone the clock starts ticking under the Speedy Trial Act. You *can* reset the clock by adding additional charges (which is most certain to happen in the case of these chucklefucks who have been arrested on their brand new conspiracy charges) but defense attorneys and judges get really pissy if you keep adding charges piecemeal after the initial indictment especially if you're seen as doing it as a delay tactic or if you've sat on the charges. The US attorney wants to know if they're going in that they're fully ready to go.
posted by Talez at 8:36 PM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I expect the final four will end up with an offer time served and probation with restrictions. Fry will need to get mentally healthy enough to participate ij his own defense.
posted by humanfont at 8:51 PM on February 11, 2016

Why would they be offered anything. We have YouTube footage of them committing crimes and calling for armed revolution.
posted by Windopaene at 8:53 PM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

How much money did the additional days the FBI and police had to camp out cost? I can't see why they'd get time served.
posted by rdr at 8:56 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

Not to mention Sean and his rants about how people should come to the refuge and if they get stopped by cops, just kill them. Fry may be genuinely mentally ill, but Sean Anderson's just a bit of a thug, an abusive drunk with a history of assault and other arrests. Who really, really didn't want to get picked up on his current warrant, and his wife is his enabler.
posted by tavella at 9:10 PM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

Not to mention Sean and his rants about how people should come to the refuge and if they get stopped by cops, just kill them.

Makes me wonder whether the next little occupation be live streamed. Their stream was basically Probable Cause TV™.
posted by Talez at 9:31 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

None of them deserve leniency, the minimum on the conspiracy charge is 6 years, which would equate to an absolute minimum of somewhere between 6-18 months actually served for the ones with a squeeky clean record before this. That should be the absolute floor just for setting foot on the property during the occupation, with additional charges as appropriate, up to and including felony murder for Ammo and the ring leaders. Fincicum died as a result of their (and his) actions in the course of committing a felony. That's felony murder. Ammo, Ryan, Santelli and someone else Im forgetting are also conspirators 1-4 in the Cliven 2014 indictment. They're all about to be looking at multiple charges of 20+ years from that as well. The books need to be thrown.

Doing nothing is what lead us here since 2014, and this is the chance to send a message and clamp down hard on the "patriot" movement still out there preaching the next round of sedition. There should be no deals, everything is perfectly preserved on video and social media. You literally could not ask for more evidence absent a confession.

Fry needs mental help, hell, the rest probably do too, but that can come in the course of their sentences.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:02 PM on February 11, 2016 [8 favorites]

the minimum on the conspiracy charge is 6 years, which would equate to an absolute minimum of somewhere between 6-18 months actually served

I don't think federal sentences work that way. You can get a little time off for good behavior, but that's it. Getting out massively early for ~reasons~ is a state thing.
posted by ryanrs at 11:20 PM on February 11, 2016

Whoa, Jeff could be in the reboot of Sons of Anarchy.

Or who Mike Nelson would have become if he had not been kidnapped aboard The Satellite of Love.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 3:57 AM on February 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Windopaene: "Why would they be offered anything."

Plea bargins are the norm (~95% of all Federal Cases). Saves time and money. Especially in the cases where you have such overwhelming evidence.

Whether the terrorists will see it that way though? I wouldn't bet on it.
posted by Mitheral at 5:15 AM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

I don't think federal sentences work that way. You can get a little time off for good behavior, but that's it. Getting out massively early for ~reasons~ is a state thing.

I think he meant to say maximum because the conspiracy charge is up to six years not a minimum of six years. Federal good time is also a 15% discount.
posted by Talez at 5:36 AM on February 12, 2016

Yes, a maximum of 6 years, sorry. And it's unlikely a judge would impose the maximum under Sentencing Guidelines
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:08 AM on February 12, 2016

I like these occupants of the fire tower so much better
posted by rockindata at 6:20 AM on February 12, 2016 [9 favorites]

Those Siren pics are fantastic ...

They're nothing next to the trailer. It's remarkable how successfully it captures that Cinemax after dark mise-en-scène.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:03 AM on February 12, 2016

I smell a watching party! Fanfare?
posted by Miko at 7:11 AM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Fry will need to get mentally healthy enough to participate ij his own defense.

Has anyone seen anything suggesting that he needs to be deemed competent for trial, because his actions and words didn't really suggest to me that he would.
posted by OmieWise at 7:49 AM on February 12, 2016

Has anyone done a Firewatch mash-up yet?
posted by running order squabble fest at 8:13 AM on February 12, 2016

Cliven Bundy requests court-appointed attorney.
Of course he did.
posted by Thorzdad at 8:43 AM on February 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Cliven Bundy requests court-appointed attorney.

Hey, he can just pull out his letter from the BLM showing he is $1.1 million in debt.
posted by JackFlash at 9:39 AM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

Cliven Bundy requests court-appointed attorney.

And as the four militants left the refuge, the news reported that there were four public defenders waiting to serve them and ready to move forward with due process of law. Because of course there were, because you're entitled to it, because of the real Constitution and the taxes we pay, you jerks.
posted by Miko at 10:07 AM on February 12, 2016 [10 favorites]

Wait, are we supposed to withhold legal representation from jerks now??

[edit: disregard; I need some caffeine...]
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 10:11 AM on February 12, 2016

Court-appointed common, non-maritime law attorney?

Good luck with that.
posted by running order squabble fest at 10:27 AM on February 12, 2016

Court-appointed common, non-maritime law attorney?

Good luck with that.

Anything that has to do with the Malheur National Wildlife Refuge, a well-known spot for birdwatching, requires an expert in bird law.
posted by dhens at 11:23 AM on February 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Wait, are we supposed to withhold legal representation from jerks now??

No, that was of course not my implication. It was just a big eye-roll from me about the enormous irony of these idiots bloviating about toppling the government and ending taxation being about to so directly benefit from it.
posted by Miko at 11:40 AM on February 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

They believe the government itself is a big fraud, so anything they can bilk out of it is fair turnabout.
posted by Bringer Tom at 11:47 AM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Cliven Bundy requests court-appointed attorney.

Common Law Grand Jury! Common Law Grand Jury!
posted by octobersurprise at 11:50 AM on February 12, 2016

Metafilter: disregard; I need some caffeine...
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:52 AM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

In case you missed it, Sheriff Dave has a fine speech on The Oregonian today, under hallelujah. Clone him.
posted by Oyéah at 12:07 PM on February 12, 2016

Miko: "It was just a big eye-roll from me about the enormous irony of these idiots bloviating about toppling the government and ending taxation being about to so directly benefit from it."

While normally I love to pin these anti-tax guys on stuff like this in this case they don't acknowledge the validity of the court so why would they pay for a lawyer in that court.
posted by Mitheral at 12:35 PM on February 12, 2016

U.S. law requires the court to provide a public defender only for those who cannot afford it. In cases in which the judge questions the defendants declaration of inability to pay, the defendant is required to provide financial documents supporting their need. The judge has requested those financial documents.

Bundy owns a ranch and over a thousand cattle which raises questions about his claim of destitution.
posted by JackFlash at 12:54 PM on February 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

He's used to being subsidized though.
posted by Artw at 1:00 PM on February 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

I've been grooving on The Ballad of the Malheur Patriots all day. (audio is slightly NSFW)
posted by TungstenChef at 1:11 PM on February 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

I was wondering about the absence of a ballad. I kind of thought Cortex might be working on one.
posted by Miko at 1:48 PM on February 12, 2016

Oregon Standoff Valentines
posted by AGameOfMoans at 1:56 PM on February 12, 2016 [7 favorites]

Bundy owns a ranch and over a thousand cattle which raises questions about his claim of destitution

I don't think he'll have trouble getting a Go Fund Me account to take care of his legal fees. He won't be using a public defender.
posted by suelac at 2:04 PM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

...claims of bobby traps...

I've been doubtful about labelling this occupation terrorism but that's an actual terrorist threat delivered as they're going into custody???
posted by rdr at 2:26 PM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Peaceful protest! Never threatened anyone!

Fuck these shitstains, it's time to add "attempted murder of government employees" as well as federal, state, and local charges of "attempted murder of law enforcement personnel" to the list for whoever planted them. Or all of them if no one owns up to it.
posted by zombieflanders at 2:34 PM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

...claims of bobby traps...

Stands to reason that the Bundy Bunch would deploy Bobby traps. I would get the US Marshas on that stat.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:34 PM on February 12, 2016 [10 favorites]

Eh, no big deal. Just make sure none of the crime scene investigators is named Bobby.
posted by Bugbread at 3:14 PM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

Bundy owns a ranch and over a thousand cattle which raises questions about his claim of destitution

Oh he'll be pretty destitute if they finally seize the trespassing cattle and the ranch to pay his grazing fees. I suspect whoever it was in Justice who stoppped the FBI from doing that last time will think twice before blocking another attempt.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:26 PM on February 12, 2016

...claims of bobby traps...

"Carlos! Anita! Sweep the premises. Sorry Bobby, you're sitting this one out."
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:52 PM on February 12, 2016 [5 favorites]

The tentative date for the trial for the conspiracy charges is April 19th.

Obviously the US Attorney missed the "DO NOT TAUNT HAPPY FUN MILITANT" warning.
posted by Talez at 4:21 PM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

booby traps [..] explosives

Ha ha, just when you think they couldn't get any dumber. It's like we're reading some defense attorney's bad trip report on Erowid.
posted by ryanrs at 4:36 PM on February 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

Hey guys! Hey guys! You remember that song "Rock Me Amadeus"?

Well think about it, except with the phrase "Posse Comitatus" as the chorus. You're welcome.
posted by Anoplura at 4:37 PM on February 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

Laziest fan vid ever.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:08 PM on February 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Dear Oregon militia men: Here’s why no one feels sorry for you and rejects your mission built on conservative Christian rage

The more the occupiers talked, the more obvious it became that they were not fierce warriors ready to die for a noble cause, but a bunch of fantasists who, bitter because white Christian conservatives don’t get the social deference they believe they deserve, have turned to conspiracy theories and other right wing argle-bargle in order to justify their sense that not being catered to is the same thing as being oppressed.

The final 24 hours were key in sending the message to other right-wing nuts who are considering similar stunts that the only thing they’ll get from that is the world laughing at you as your tough guy act crumples into a ball of gibberish and eventual surrender.

After the FBI surrounded the refuge, the four remaining militants inside started live streaming their reaction, and what came out of them was so embarrassing that it beat anything a satirist trying to make fun of them could write.

posted by zakur at 5:10 PM on February 12, 2016 [14 favorites]

John Sepulvado reports a federal source told him rudimentary booby traps have been spotted. Rigged vehicles which were supposed to explode or burn when started.

I was thinking Fry was just talking about his pile of crushed water bottles as the booby traps. Something designed to scare away agents and ghosts. But if there are serious traps, then the charges will be especially ugly for the final four.
posted by honestcoyote at 6:42 PM on February 12, 2016

right wing argle-bargle

QFT.
posted by sneebler at 6:45 PM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

So... who can help me get a copy of Siren to the Red Letter Media folks for their Wheel of the Worst?
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:36 PM on February 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yeah, if there are boobytrapped cars, some people's charges just likely went from a few months of actual time to years, and possibly the rest of their life. The Bundy Ranch standoff people were already looking at possible decades, but some of the Mahleur-only people might have gotten away relatively lightly. But the Feds are not amused by IEDs.
posted by tavella at 8:33 PM on February 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yeah, if there are boobytrapped cars, some people's charges just likely went from a few months of actual time to years, and possibly the rest of their life. The Bundy Ranch standoff people were already looking at possible decades, but some of the Mahleur-only people might have gotten away relatively lightly. But the Feds are not amused by IEDs.

There will be enough charges to go around that they might have to "charge" some of the undercover agents. Otherwise it might be a bit too obvious, with everyone except them facing a laundry list of charges. I have already heard pieces on OPB talking about a couple people who seem in retrospect to be obviously agents. IEDs, booby traps, and the cultural resources violations are going to result in some serious federal charges, and it isn't just the ringleaders who are vulnerable.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:52 PM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]

they might have to "charge" some of the undercover agents.

Are you definite that there are such people? Can you link the the OPB story you heard? I mean, I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility, but it seems as though the biographies of everyone I've read about are fully-fleshed and well documented. Who do you suspect of being an agent?
posted by Miko at 4:49 AM on February 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

This is one opb story speculating about Mark Mconnell, the guy who wasn't arrested in the first stop.
posted by rockindata at 5:30 AM on February 13, 2016 [3 favorites]

The tentative date for the trial for the conspiracy charges is April 19th.

Obviously the US Attorney missed the "DO NOT TAUNT HAPPY FUN MILITANT" warning.

OMG that is awesome . Right in their fucking faces.
posted by spitbull at 6:00 AM on February 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

The linked story is the one I heard.

The FBI is all kinds of inept, but there is no way that with an occupation that was open for anyone showing up who wanted to hang out that they wouldn't have sent in some agents, over and above any long term undercover investigations/instigations that they might have had going on.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:43 AM on February 13, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yeah, I'm pretty far from a conspiracy theorist, but when you've got an occupation with open calls for anyone to show up, even if nobody else knows them, it would be pretty dumb not to send in an undercover agent.
posted by Bugbread at 6:48 AM on February 13, 2016 [3 favorites]

I mean, seriously. What, do they think that's cheating?

If the FBI didn't do that, it was only because they didn't think it was worth the risk, since the occupiers were relentlessly broadcasting evidence of their numbers, positioning, equipment, level of preparedness and dildo quotient.
posted by running order squabble fest at 8:05 AM on February 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

That OPB story is not speculating about undercover agents, it is reporting on the paranoid rantings of some of the parties involved. Heck, some of these people were claiming Fiore was a plant after Cliven Bundy was arrested. The paranoia about "backstabbing federal informants" has been going on since the beginning. Even Blaine Cooper was accused at one time of working with the Feds.
posted by zakur at 8:16 AM on February 13, 2016 [4 favorites]

The tentative date for the trial for the conspiracy charges is April 19th.

Obviously the US Attorney missed the "DO NOT TAUNT HAPPY FUN MILITANT" warning.

OMG that is awesome . Right in their fucking faces

Can someone explain the significance of the date?
posted by dhens at 8:17 AM on February 13, 2016 [4 favorites]

It's my birthday.

Some other stuff may have happened. OKC bombing etc.
posted by Trochanter at 8:18 AM on February 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

I can't see actual FBI agents going in undercover. With the amount of media exposure the risk of them being outed would be too great. I assume that the FBI has informants inside the militias and that some of those informants went to Burns. The problem with sending informants is what they do. If they act as provocateurs, that's wrong. The FBI has a long history of sleazy tactics with protest groups.

On the other hand, I can't see that the FBI needed to do much with the Bundy group because their leaders were disastrously incompetent. The occupiers were not a movement. They were more like a random collection of yahoos. Plus, they were in a contained area broadcasting their every move. Why bother?
posted by rdr at 8:18 AM on February 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

Well, there are examples of actual infiltration of a militia-style fortified camp by federal agents working undercover - most obviously Robert Rodriguez at Waco. However, in this case there was less of an incentive, certainly, because the idiots were constantly broadcasting intelligence about themselves using local, national and social media...
posted by running order squabble fest at 8:28 AM on February 13, 2016

Can someone explain the significance of the date?

The feds moved on the Branch Davidians that day, and McVeigh did the OKC thing on Apr 19 for that reason.
posted by Trochanter at 8:33 AM on February 13, 2016 [7 favorites]

Far righties also like to cite that date as the Battle of Lexington and Concord.

In 2010 there was a large gun rights march on DC held on April 19. It has significance beyond the extremist fringe, even, and your garden variety fascist far right gun nutter recognizes it as a perverse holiday.

So that's why it's so in your face for the US Attorney to set it as the trial date. The significance of the gesture will resonate well beyond the militia cult.
posted by spitbull at 8:46 AM on February 13, 2016

The feds moved on the Branch Davidians that day, and McVeigh did the OKC thing on Apr 19 for that reason.

Heh, I didn't even get that. I was thinking the Battle of Lexington.

I assume that the FBI has informants inside the militias and that some of those informants went to Burns.

The New Yorker has had a really interesting thread about informants: police recruiting young offenders to informant, Whitey Bolger as an informant, and another one, and probably others I have forgotten, really opened my eyes about what "informants" are -as in, not good guys trapped in a bad world, but essentially bad or at least badly misguided guys trying to play both sides against the middle, often disastrously. It totally makes sense that the FBI has informants among militia members. I can far more readily believe that about McConnell than believe that he was an agent that was just undercover,
posted by Miko at 8:55 AM on February 13, 2016

I figured Pete Santilli was undercover or an informant the whole time. Genius move, getting your man on the inside to live stream the whole damn thing. His "crazy" schtick is so theatrically absurd, and as far as we know he wasn't armed, and he's got the easiest case to dismiss (ACLU mumble mumble journalist mumble freedom of the press mumble). He also got very close to -- but never that I saw over -- the line on direct, unambiguous incitement to violence. He seemed to me to be calculating his words even when they were unhinged.

If he's not a rat, I'll be surprised.
posted by spitbull at 9:04 AM on February 13, 2016

And if he is a rat, by the way, I thank him for his service and applaud his performance as gonzo rightwing wacko Hunter S. Thompson II (as Farce).
posted by spitbull at 9:08 AM on February 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

Also he managed not to be in the trucks that were stopped by OSP headed to John Day, but instead was taken in "without incident" in Burns that evening.
posted by spitbull at 9:10 AM on February 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Armstrong affadavit is great reading. It's hilarious noting how very much of their own grandstanding on social media was the pitard they've been hoisted by.

On preview, I'm interested by what you say, spitbull. On the one hand, Santilli was active a long time before this came around, and he's all over the affadavit. On the other, even quoted in the affadavit he seems careful to say he's calling on people to join "unarmed" and "peaceful." I'm not sure how that would get sliced and diced legally - it's hard to argue he's just asking for the right to peacably assemble, given the general statements and tenor of the occupation, but maybe he was kind of careful not to literally incite treasonous opposition to the government in so many words. But maybe it's just that he has had some government run-ins before when ranting about firearms.
posted by Miko at 9:16 AM on February 13, 2016

Yes, that history makes me think he was turned, and an informant rather than an undercover agent. He seems like a guy who would get off on having his cake and eating it too.

I am hopeful there is a ton of fear and suspicion swirling around in the militia/patriot/seditionist/gun nutter/white supremacist world right now, as I suspect there is. Those crazy violent paranoid misfits turning on each other and eating their own tail like a damn Gadsden Ouroboros would be the best outcome for the country.
posted by spitbull at 9:23 AM on February 13, 2016 [7 favorites]

Before anyone idolizes Santelli too much remember that he has a LONG history as a con man and a complete sleeze-bag. IF he was turned he did it only to save his own skin and nothing more. He is a complete sociopath and cares only for his own welfare.
posted by AGameOfMoans at 10:11 AM on February 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

I sort of see Santelli as the coked-up guy-with-a-beard in the group of hostages in Die Hard.
posted by hippybear at 10:18 AM on February 13, 2016 [3 favorites]

Cliven Bundy arrest 2 years later: strategy or serendipity?

I still consider any kind of FBI secret plan vastly unlikely where commie bashing or racism are not involved.
posted by Artw at 10:54 AM on February 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

IF he was turned he did it only to save his own skin and nothing more.

Yeah, check out some of those articles from the New Yorker. This is the story for most informants.
posted by Miko at 11:58 AM on February 13, 2016

Santelli is a yet-unindicted co-conspirator in the Cliven 2014 indictment, he's not an informant. He was a lot more overtly calling for violence during the first standoff, and I expect more indictments coming against those four, including him.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:03 PM on February 13, 2016

It seems to me that for all the people that have been identified as possible informants the evidence the they are informants is mostly that they didn't act like complete idiots. They acted as if illegal actions might have consequences. That's a pretty low bar.
posted by rdr at 12:05 PM on February 13, 2016 [2 favorites]

I still consider any kind of FBI secret plan vastly unlikely where commie bashing or racism are not involved.

I agree, the FBI uses those tactics on left wing groups, not right wing militias. We saw how much it took to get them to act here, they're not overtly infiltrating these groups on a regular basis, there's too many false terror plots to engineer and "thwart" instead.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:06 PM on February 13, 2016

Who killed LaVoy Finicum? Lawmakers weigh bill to protect officer's identity
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:09 PM on February 13, 2016

Santelli is a yet-unindicted co-conspirator in the Cliven 2014 indictment, he's not an informant.

Could this make it more likely he's an informant? What's holding up the indictment?
posted by Miko at 12:20 PM on February 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

Could this make it more likely he's an informant?

Well, I don't think so. I guess we'll see.

What's holding up the indictment?

It's a federal holiday weekend, for one. The Courts aren't in regular session till Tuesday, and anyone working right now is getting paid overtime. Budget people hate overtime, even in the FBI / DOJ. And everyone else is busy on the ground in Oregon. Plus, Cliven was just charged on Thursday. With all 5 from BundyRanch I in custody in the near term, it's not imperative to get charging documents out so they can be apprehended. They'll get around to filing more charges over both Bundy I and Bundy II in the next few weeks, if it's going to happen.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:34 PM on February 13, 2016

Yeah, that "yet-unindicted" part? That's the part that I find interesting.

Anyway, whether he is or isn't is not as interesting as merely stoking the suggestion that hey, he MIGHT be a rat. Just sayin. Stranger things have happened. Hey militia boys and oaf-keepers, have you ever noticed how he seems to get off easy and avoid being whether the shit is really going down, all while live streaming you all to rock solid prosecution cases? You know, you just can't really trust anyone these days. And what kind of name is "Santilli," anyway? Or maybe it wasn't him and he was set up by David Fry. And they let Rizheimer go home, did you notice that? And that Fiore lady (hey "Fiore," "Santilli," notice a pattern there?) set Cliven up real good and is getting all kinds of good press after that. You really just don't know whom you can trust these days, you know?

There. Doing my part for freedumb.
posted by spitbull at 12:38 PM on February 13, 2016 [4 favorites]

I mentioned this suspicion up thread, but my concern is that it just drives these guys "underground". Do we really think that this slap in the face to the "patriot" movement is going to cause any of these folks to change their minds? Who will renounce their beliefs in moon law from this? Or will they just double-down in the "Feds are evil, told you" nonsense?
posted by Windopaene at 12:51 PM on February 13, 2016

I doubt it was a plan since 2014, no. Cliven's made road trips before, with plenty of opportunity to pull him over in an isolated spot. But I do think that at some point in this standoff there was a come-to-jesus discussion in the upper levels of the FBI/federal branch, realizing that the whole 'lets just ignore them' routine was not working and that it was just making them bolder and bolder: Bundy, Sugar Pine, now Mahleur. And so yeah, I think at that point the decision was made to revive the charges and get things ready for when an opportunity arrived. I'm inclined to think it was fairly early on and that they decided that pulling Bundy over on the way to Finicum's funeral was bad optics, but it's possible it was only after they were so bold about basically taking over Kanab that the trigger was pulled.
posted by tavella at 12:54 PM on February 13, 2016 [1 favorite]

Windopaene: I mentioned this suspicion up thread, but my concern is that it just drives these guys "underground". Do we really think that this slap in the face to the "patriot" movement is going to cause any of these folks to change their minds?

Change their minds? Not really. Reduce the enthusiasm of the hangers-on? Yes. Again, look at how fast most of them ran once the Bundys were arrested and Finicum was shot. The greater part of the group just wants to parade their penis-substitutes around while giving the finger to the government, and living off the donations of the deluded. They have absolutely no appetite for actual effort or danger. And it's easier to deal with these incidents when the leaders have fewer meat shields. Plus, some of the most hardcore get to go to prison for years, where they won't be enacting any more terrorism.

There's always a risk of the more quiet and dangerous ones in the background plotting more OKCs, but that risk isn't *lessened* by allowing the others free reign.
posted by tavella at 1:05 PM on February 13, 2016 [8 favorites]

I don't disagree tavella
posted by Windopaene at 1:13 PM on February 13, 2016

I doubt it was a plan since 2014, no. Cliven's made road trips before, with plenty of opportunity to pull him over in an isolated spot.

It wasn't getting him in an isolated area. It was that he was armed at all times and often had armed bodyguards itching for a shootout with the feds. Flying forced him to disarm and allowed the feds to guarantee he could be taken with no threat of bloodshed.
posted by Talez at 2:17 PM on February 13, 2016 [8 favorites]

Any conjecture about Papa Bundy's strategy here? It seems impossible that he wouldn't have been aware of the fact that de-arming for a public flight was incredibly likely to end as it did.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 2:49 PM on February 13, 2016

OMG

OMG

what if Cliven Bundy was the informant all this time?
posted by zombieflanders at 2:52 PM on February 13, 2016 [9 favorites]

THE PHONE CALL IS COMING FROM ON THE RANCH!!!
posted by Windopaene at 2:54 PM on February 13, 2016 [6 favorites]

Ammon Bundy traveled with heavily armed bodyguards too, and they didn't have trouble picking them up. it was only the nutty Tarp Man that ended up taking the rhetoric seriously. I think you overestimate these guys a bit; they'd be perfectly happy to have other people shoot cops bothering them, and if it came down to a siege I'd be worried about them working themselves up to it, but I doubt they are that much of a risk for shooting any state cop that pulls them over, especially when said cop has obvious backup. Remember, Ammon Bundy was very careful about letting the new and naive folks be the ones to commit obvious breaches of simple statutes like stealing government vehicles, while keeping his hands clean. The Bundys are closer to the greedy grifter side of this movement than the fanatic true believers. And you underestimate the cops; if we are genuinely at the point where law enforcement is too terrified to stop criminals in cars even when there are no innocents around, we'd be in a sad state.
posted by tavella at 3:04 PM on February 13, 2016

a box and a stick and a string and a bear: Any conjecture about Papa Bundy's strategy here?

Hubris. He was flying to meet Michelle Fiore and had armed guys meeting him at the airport in Portland. These guys live in a bubble and surround themselves with yes men, so eventually they start to believe their own bullshit and think they're untouchable. It would be great if one of the armed militia guys meeting him at the airport was an FBI mole and guaranteed his safety.
posted by bluecore at 3:14 PM on February 13, 2016 [4 favorites]

That Bundy Affidavit is the worst advert for Windows Media Player ever.

Interesting to see you all working up the conspiracy theories as to who may or may not be an informant. I'm starting a book, my money right now is on Santilli - as detailed above.
posted by marienbad at 3:34 PM on February 13, 2016

Santilli's parents were making public comment about his mental health issues. I doubt it is Santilli, unless his whole inflammatory radio presence is undercover work.

I can believe Glen Beck being run by someone for purely nefarious reasons. He'd be getting argyle plaid gift socks, with calf garters, and sweet little notes, if J. Edgar Hoover were still running things.
posted by Oyéah at 4:53 PM on February 13, 2016

There's a new thread on the standoff.
posted by Miko at 5:53 PM on February 14, 2016 [3 favorites]

We've got like two weeks of supplies.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:21 PM on February 14, 2016 [18 favorites]

I'll tie another blue ribbon around the tree. Godspeed.
posted by Room 641-A at 6:57 PM on February 14, 2016 [1 favorite]

Someone upthread said that Cliven will have to show that he doesn't have money for a lawyer. How does this work? Are there clear guidelines for how little money one has to have, or is it more at the discretion of the judge? Are assets counted?
posted by OmieWise at 10:12 AM on February 16, 2016

It looks like it'll come down to a sworn affidavit like this one. It'll be interesting to see what Cliven declares about the family cash flow, and how that works out for them.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 11:33 AM on February 16, 2016

Hmm. What are the potential penalties for lying on that form, I wonder? I'm surprised they aren't already running gofundme type things for Cliven. Though one of the people who follows the movement mentioned on twitter that the followers are surprisingly reluctant to donate money if they aren't getting anything back. It's why the various grifters do so well -- 'pay for my course and you'll never pay taxes again!' 'Use the magic words and get lots of money from your secret government account!'
posted by tavella at 11:45 AM on February 16, 2016

Hmm. What are the potential penalties for lying on that form, I wonder?

Well under penalty of perjury so up to five years and/or a fine.
posted by Talez at 4:24 PM on February 16, 2016

I'm not leaving this thread until everyone yells HALLELUJAH!
posted by numaner at 10:37 AM on February 17, 2016 [12 favorites]

I'm not leaving til I've finished all the cookies. Leave no trace, yo.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 12:08 PM on February 17, 2016 [4 favorites]

I feel bad for cortex et al who have to clean up the massive trench of human feces left after we end our occupation of this thread.
posted by indubitable at 1:09 PM on February 17, 2016 [7 favorites]

That was there when we got here, remember?
posted by The corpse in the library at 1:13 PM on February 17, 2016 [1 favorite]

🚜 💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩💩
posted by gamera at 1:13 PM on February 17, 2016 [11 favorites]

I'm just going to use it to grow crops that I'll then sell at a farmer's market to defray accrued moderation costs.
posted by cortex at 1:30 PM on February 17, 2016 [6 favorites]

"Crops"? This is Oregon, dude, you can just say weed, you won't get busted. Maybe pick up a few customers though.
posted by marienbad at 2:06 PM on February 17, 2016 [9 favorites]

Grant County sheriff viewed as 'security leak' as state seeks investigation.
posted by Nelson at 8:40 AM on February 19, 2016 [3 favorites]

That's a pretty major wow. If you don't mind, Nelson, I'm going to paste that to the Making Sense thread.
posted by Trochanter at 10:34 AM on February 19, 2016

>This is Oregon, dude, you can just say weed, you won't get busted.ourse you

Unless of course you light up around a campfire on Federal property while lifestreaming yourself doing it on youtube

Awww who am I kidding what kind of idiots would do that ??
posted by AGameOfMoans at 2:08 PM on February 19, 2016 [2 favorites]