Wears flannel shirts (inconsistent with city setting)
February 10, 2016 7:34 AM Subscribe
Cassandra Clare, fanfiction author turned bestselling author, has been accused of copyright infringement by Sherrilyn Kenyon for sharing such themes [pdf of exhibit] as "evil father who has to be killed", "magical swords that battle evil", "rebellious and beautiful female character" and "round room with magical portals".
An earlier blowup in fanfiction circles involved plagiarism in The Draco Chronicles. (Related previously.)
Pdf links to complaint, and exhibits including list of published works, trademarks, and trade dress for Shadowhunter and Dark-Hunter series.
An earlier blowup in fanfiction circles involved plagiarism in The Draco Chronicles. (Related previously.)
Pdf links to complaint, and exhibits including list of published works, trademarks, and trade dress for Shadowhunter and Dark-Hunter series.
As a magical sword that battles evil, I'd also like a cut of this sweet money.
posted by selfnoise at 7:41 AM on February 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by selfnoise at 7:41 AM on February 10, 2016 [10 favorites]
Never been a huge cassieclare fan from back in her fandom days, but this definitely seems like a reach.
posted by kmz at 7:43 AM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by kmz at 7:43 AM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
'Occult defense force' and 'well worn theme' are both properties owned by adept256. Expect to hear from my vampires lawyers.
posted by adept256 at 7:43 AM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by adept256 at 7:43 AM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Is this a common thing--fanfiction authors becoming bestselling authors of original work?
posted by goatdog at 7:45 AM on February 10, 2016
posted by goatdog at 7:45 AM on February 10, 2016
goatdog, I think 50 Shades Of Grey started as Twilight fan fiction
posted by thelonius at 7:47 AM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 7:47 AM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is this a common thing--fanfiction authors becoming bestselling authors of original work?
Getting moreso. Fifty Shades of Grey was famously a Twilight fanfic first. The fanfic community can serve as a massive ongoing writer's workshop.
posted by Etrigan at 7:48 AM on February 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Getting moreso. Fifty Shades of Grey was famously a Twilight fanfic first. The fanfic community can serve as a massive ongoing writer's workshop.
posted by Etrigan at 7:48 AM on February 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Have you heard of 50 Shades of Domestic Abuse, goatdog?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:48 AM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:48 AM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
er, jinx
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:49 AM on February 10, 2016
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:49 AM on February 10, 2016
I don't have much of a dog in this fight or much context for the works, except that the assertions of plagiraism go a good bit deeper/are more persuasive than the pull examples suggest.
Take, for example, the side-by-side character comparisons starting on page 2.
Granted, this is the complainant's, y'know, complaint. So it's going to be in the terms that are most favorable to them and probably shade things in their favor, but given the sheer number of similarities, and Cassie Cla(i)re's long, hilarious history of blatant plagiarism and lifting of straight-up lines of dialogue and utter bullshit tactics in defense of them -- yeah, you can see why it might stick.
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:49 AM on February 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
Take, for example, the side-by-side character comparisons starting on page 2.
Granted, this is the complainant's, y'know, complaint. So it's going to be in the terms that are most favorable to them and probably shade things in their favor, but given the sheer number of similarities, and Cassie Cla(i)re's long, hilarious history of blatant plagiarism and lifting of straight-up lines of dialogue and utter bullshit tactics in defense of them -- yeah, you can see why it might stick.
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:49 AM on February 10, 2016 [20 favorites]
I don't think it's a reach at all -- see page 5, number 13 of the complaint for the most damning bit:
"The Dark-Hunter Series and the Shadowhunter Series are so similar that CLARE’S
own publisher mistakenly printed 100,000 copies of a Shadowhunter Book referencing the DarkHunter Mark on the cover. Upon written demand by PLAINTIFF, CLARE’s publisher destroyed tens of thousands of the Shadowhunter Book that contained PLAINTIFF’s Dark-Hunter Mark on its cover. Despite the destruction of tens of thousands of copies of this Shadowhunter Book, thousands of Shadowhunter Books including the Dark Hunter Marks on the cover have now been sold and substantial commercial confusion has resulted. "
Cassie Clare's been a plagiarist since her fanfic days. She wrote these novels almost immediately after she finished the Draco trilogy. She was in no way harmed by the plagiarism accusations lobbed at her back in the day, why would she have stopped?
posted by AmandaA at 7:49 AM on February 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
"The Dark-Hunter Series and the Shadowhunter Series are so similar that CLARE’S
own publisher mistakenly printed 100,000 copies of a Shadowhunter Book referencing the DarkHunter Mark on the cover. Upon written demand by PLAINTIFF, CLARE’s publisher destroyed tens of thousands of the Shadowhunter Book that contained PLAINTIFF’s Dark-Hunter Mark on its cover. Despite the destruction of tens of thousands of copies of this Shadowhunter Book, thousands of Shadowhunter Books including the Dark Hunter Marks on the cover have now been sold and substantial commercial confusion has resulted. "
Cassie Clare's been a plagiarist since her fanfic days. She wrote these novels almost immediately after she finished the Draco trilogy. She was in no way harmed by the plagiarism accusations lobbed at her back in the day, why would she have stopped?
posted by AmandaA at 7:49 AM on February 10, 2016 [18 favorites]
I would guess it is the names -- honestly, Dark-Hunter and Shadowhunter are pretty similar, and it sounds like Clare used the terms Dark Hunter initially, changing it to Shadowhunter just before publication. I don't really get why we'd include the list of similarities, which seems to be more accurately titled "Tropes in urban fantasy", including "magical Negro", "snarky orphan", "love triangle", "guys with blue eyes and dark hair".
posted by jeather at 7:50 AM on February 10, 2016
posted by jeather at 7:50 AM on February 10, 2016
UNHOLY CACKLING
posted by poffin boffin at 7:51 AM on February 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 7:51 AM on February 10, 2016 [19 favorites]
OK, wow, yeah, the actual complaint is much stronger than the pullquotes.
posted by kmz at 7:56 AM on February 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by kmz at 7:56 AM on February 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Is this a common thing--fanfiction authors becoming bestselling authors of original work?
If I had to guess, I would say it's more common than we think. I know most of my writer-friends started out writing fanfic. We only remember Cassie Cla[i]re because a) the Draco Trilogy was huge, back in the day, and she was the biggest of the BNFs. I would put money on most of the younger writers of urban fantasy and YA having been fanfic writers in their youth (and probably still writing fanfic, when they can find the time).
posted by AmandaA at 7:58 AM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
If I had to guess, I would say it's more common than we think. I know most of my writer-friends started out writing fanfic. We only remember Cassie Cla[i]re because a) the Draco Trilogy was huge, back in the day, and she was the biggest of the BNFs. I would put money on most of the younger writers of urban fantasy and YA having been fanfic writers in their youth (and probably still writing fanfic, when they can find the time).
posted by AmandaA at 7:58 AM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Has anyone read both series? I read the Cassandra Clare books but not the Sherrilyn Kenyon ones.
After reading the list of similarities and related matters, this does strike me as potentially a more legit complaint than, say, the one against J. K. Rowling a while back which was basically "I had a character named Potter and used the word Muggle even though it meant something totally different!" This one, in contrast, has a fifteen-page list of similarities among major characters, which often gets pretty specific.
However, even bearing that in mind, without having read the Kenyon books I can't judge the merits of the lawsuit; it's definitely possible for me to think of other series I consider in no way ripoffs of each other where I could draw up a list of similarities that long if I really put in the effort. Lots of books have almost eerie resonances with each other that are either unintentional, intentional but not rising to the level of copyright infringement, or simply using the same tropes that predated either one. So I'm more interested in where the series two differ; are there broad similarities of plot and theme, or is it only character relationships, physical appearance, and common worldbuilding concepts? Can anyone weigh in?
posted by kyrademon at 8:00 AM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
After reading the list of similarities and related matters, this does strike me as potentially a more legit complaint than, say, the one against J. K. Rowling a while back which was basically "I had a character named Potter and used the word Muggle even though it meant something totally different!" This one, in contrast, has a fifteen-page list of similarities among major characters, which often gets pretty specific.
However, even bearing that in mind, without having read the Kenyon books I can't judge the merits of the lawsuit; it's definitely possible for me to think of other series I consider in no way ripoffs of each other where I could draw up a list of similarities that long if I really put in the effort. Lots of books have almost eerie resonances with each other that are either unintentional, intentional but not rising to the level of copyright infringement, or simply using the same tropes that predated either one. So I'm more interested in where the series two differ; are there broad similarities of plot and theme, or is it only character relationships, physical appearance, and common worldbuilding concepts? Can anyone weigh in?
posted by kyrademon at 8:00 AM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Is this a common thing--fanfiction authors becoming bestselling authors of original work?
I get the sense that a lot of fanfic authors either also write original work and get published or transition from writing fanfic to writing original work - I can think of a few people who have long fantasy writing careers now who, I've been assured by fandom acquaintances, wrote fanfic in their young day, and I've followed people's blogs enough to have seen some folks make the leap themselves. Some people also write both fanfic and regular work with the fanfic under a nom de guerre. I've read that noted feminist SF writer Joanna Russ wrote Kirk/Spock, although as far as I know it's locked away in an archive somewhere. (Would I gnaw off a forearm to see it? Probably.)
It's important to understand that there's some actually pretty good fanfic out there. If you're not into it, it's easy to assume that it's all like the examples linked for comedy, or like the minimally adequate but cliched, dull and schlocky stuff that gets turned into Fifty Shades, etc.
I would say that I have very rarely read fan fiction which was as good as above-average original work, but I have on a number of occasions read fan fiction which is as good as entry level first novel fantasy or SF, and it would not surprise me at all if someone who can write an engaging 125,000 words of gritty-police-procedural-with-snappy-regional-dialogue but with Harry Potter characters can switch over to being published.
posted by Frowner at 8:01 AM on February 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
I get the sense that a lot of fanfic authors either also write original work and get published or transition from writing fanfic to writing original work - I can think of a few people who have long fantasy writing careers now who, I've been assured by fandom acquaintances, wrote fanfic in their young day, and I've followed people's blogs enough to have seen some folks make the leap themselves. Some people also write both fanfic and regular work with the fanfic under a nom de guerre. I've read that noted feminist SF writer Joanna Russ wrote Kirk/Spock, although as far as I know it's locked away in an archive somewhere. (Would I gnaw off a forearm to see it? Probably.)
It's important to understand that there's some actually pretty good fanfic out there. If you're not into it, it's easy to assume that it's all like the examples linked for comedy, or like the minimally adequate but cliched, dull and schlocky stuff that gets turned into Fifty Shades, etc.
I would say that I have very rarely read fan fiction which was as good as above-average original work, but I have on a number of occasions read fan fiction which is as good as entry level first novel fantasy or SF, and it would not surprise me at all if someone who can write an engaging 125,000 words of gritty-police-procedural-with-snappy-regional-dialogue but with Harry Potter characters can switch over to being published.
posted by Frowner at 8:01 AM on February 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yeah, skimming the PDF complaint the plaintiff's narrative is that these were even called "Darkhunters" originally and then got changed to "Shadowhunters" after complaints. They also promised not to use "Shadowhunter" in the titles (instead just as a description in the text) then reneged. Certainly if you believe the PDF there's at least a case for trademark infringement and maybe "derivative work" (if I knew what that actually meant legally.)
In addition to the comment AmandaA pulled out there's this:
[merchandise] are so confusingly similar that a pendant “inspired by” the Shadowhunter Series is displayed on an etsy.com webpage described as the “[o]fficial Site of Sherrilyn Kenyon's Dark-Hunter® Jewelry as well as other book inspired pieces.”
posted by mark k at 8:02 AM on February 10, 2016
In addition to the comment AmandaA pulled out there's this:
[merchandise] are so confusingly similar that a pendant “inspired by” the Shadowhunter Series is displayed on an etsy.com webpage described as the “[o]fficial Site of Sherrilyn Kenyon's Dark-Hunter® Jewelry as well as other book inspired pieces.”
posted by mark k at 8:02 AM on February 10, 2016
Is this a common thing--fanfiction authors becoming bestselling authors of original work?
There are definitely a few that I know of, and I'm not hugely well-informed. Naomi Novik is another.
Why wouldn't it be a common thing? People who write fanfic generally do it because they like to write and spend a lot of time doing it. Sure a lot of it is crap and/or weird porn, but as I have recently discovered it can also be a weirdly supportive craft-honing environment.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:02 AM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
There are definitely a few that I know of, and I'm not hugely well-informed. Naomi Novik is another.
Why wouldn't it be a common thing? People who write fanfic generally do it because they like to write and spend a lot of time doing it. Sure a lot of it is crap and/or weird porn, but as I have recently discovered it can also be a weirdly supportive craft-honing environment.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:02 AM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
I mean, even if we take the complaint as true, Clare wised up some, in that she is no longer lifting ENTIRE BLOCKS OF DIALOGUE and ENTIRE SCENES from other writers without attribution, like she used to do.
So. Progress????
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:03 AM on February 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
So. Progress????
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:03 AM on February 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
goatdog, I think 50 Shades Of Grey started as Twilight fan fiction
It was. Ready-made audience and idea. Parasitic writers slack their way to success...
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 8:03 AM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
It was. Ready-made audience and idea. Parasitic writers slack their way to success...
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 8:03 AM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
I must admit to a very small, very petty delight in this. Cassandra Cla[i]re is the WOOOOOOOOORST person who treated so many people so very badly for so long that I hope this blows up huge. She's just terrible.
posted by chonus at 8:04 AM on February 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by chonus at 8:04 AM on February 10, 2016 [14 favorites]
Lois McMaster Bujold wrote Star Trek fanfic. S.E. Hinton wrote Supernatural fanfic. Lev Grossman wrote Harry Potter, Adventure Time, and How to Train Your Dragon fanfic. Meg Cabot wrote Star Wars fanfic.
Plus the ones who have already been named here like Clare and James and Novik.
posted by kyrademon at 8:07 AM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Plus the ones who have already been named here like Clare and James and Novik.
posted by kyrademon at 8:07 AM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
On the one hand it seems pretty clear that Clare plagiarized Kenyon's series. On the other, copyright does not protect ideas, it only protects specific expressions of ideas, and as long as Clare didn't copy whole blocks of Kenyon's prose, I don't see how copyright applies.
Trademark would apply but unlike copyright, which is assumed to exist from the point of creation of the work, trademarks have to be applied for and registered. This is still an unusual thing in publishing though it's been done a few times, and is often considered a dick move IP land grab when it is done. It will be interesting to see where this case goes.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:08 AM on February 10, 2016
Trademark would apply but unlike copyright, which is assumed to exist from the point of creation of the work, trademarks have to be applied for and registered. This is still an unusual thing in publishing though it's been done a few times, and is often considered a dick move IP land grab when it is done. It will be interesting to see where this case goes.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:08 AM on February 10, 2016
On the other, copyright does not protect ideas, it only protects specific expressions of ideas, and as long as Clare didn't copy whole blocks of Kenyon's prose, I don't see how copyright applies.
Not a copyright lawyer in any way, but from what I remember from my classes, you can get copyright in an arrangement or collection with a basic minimum of creativity, as seen in ye olde Feist.
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:12 AM on February 10, 2016
Not a copyright lawyer in any way, but from what I remember from my classes, you can get copyright in an arrangement or collection with a basic minimum of creativity, as seen in ye olde Feist.
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:12 AM on February 10, 2016
(While I know nothing about Cassandra Clare as a person, I will say that I would commit terrible crimes to be a member of her writing group, which also includes Holly Black, Kelly Link, Ellen Kushner, and Delia Sherman, among others.)
posted by kyrademon at 8:15 AM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by kyrademon at 8:15 AM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
I read a few of the Clare books and didn't like them; I haven't read the Kenyon books. I do think there are some reasonable complaints here (the trademark ones, not the copyright ones), but the list of similarities doesn't seem like one because it seems too generic fantasy, and also 5 pages of bullet points for something like 20 works each looks like a real selection bias -- it would be much easier to find the Harry Potter similarities (as the books were definitely HP fanfiction based).
Kenyon's lawyer, apparently.
posted by jeather at 8:16 AM on February 10, 2016
Kenyon's lawyer, apparently.
posted by jeather at 8:16 AM on February 10, 2016
Is this a common thing--fanfiction authors becoming bestselling authors of original work?
Well, I'm not a bestseller, but I'm a fanfic author who is now a regularly published midlist author. Out of my personal circle of friends, I'd say at least 2/3 of us wrote (and/or still write) fanfic, and half of us are bestsellers. So, there's definitely overlap.
posted by headspace at 8:19 AM on February 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Well, I'm not a bestseller, but I'm a fanfic author who is now a regularly published midlist author. Out of my personal circle of friends, I'd say at least 2/3 of us wrote (and/or still write) fanfic, and half of us are bestsellers. So, there's definitely overlap.
posted by headspace at 8:19 AM on February 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
Watch this space for my new series "Crepuscular Hunter."
posted by octobersurprise at 8:20 AM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 8:20 AM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
which also includes Holly Black, Kelly Link, Ellen Kushner, and Delia Sherman, among others.
The period of time in which I had lengthy Twitter convos with Kelly Link and Holly Black about pop culture was like one of the highlights of being on social media EVER.
posted by Kitteh at 8:21 AM on February 10, 2016
The period of time in which I had lengthy Twitter convos with Kelly Link and Holly Black about pop culture was like one of the highlights of being on social media EVER.
posted by Kitteh at 8:21 AM on February 10, 2016
> "Watch this space for my new series 'Crepuscular Hunter.'"
This naked attempt to cash in on the success of my "Penumbra Hunter" stories will not go unanswered.
posted by kyrademon at 8:25 AM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
This naked attempt to cash in on the success of my "Penumbra Hunter" stories will not go unanswered.
posted by kyrademon at 8:25 AM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
And isn't the idea of some sort of occult defense force basically a well-worn theme by now?
Abraham Van Helsing named his team of vampire hunters the "Crew of Light" back in 1897, so there's some prior art of luminosity-themed exterminators of supernatural beings.
posted by sukeban at 8:26 AM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Abraham Van Helsing named his team of vampire hunters the "Crew of Light" back in 1897, so there's some prior art of luminosity-themed exterminators of supernatural beings.
posted by sukeban at 8:26 AM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Night Watch, Day Watch and Twilight Watch are taken, too.
posted by sukeban at 8:28 AM on February 10, 2016
posted by sukeban at 8:28 AM on February 10, 2016
i had so many things to do today and yet here i sit, numerous badpenny tabs open, frittering away my time with further ugly monstrous cackling
posted by poffin boffin at 8:29 AM on February 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 8:29 AM on February 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Both Series feature mortal or normal objects (referred to as “instruments” by the DEFENDANT), including without limitation a cup, a sword, and a mirror, each imbued with magical properties to help battle evil and protect mankind.
Welp. There's a magic cup, sword and mirror in the book? Someone tell JK Rowling. /s
posted by sukeban at 8:30 AM on February 10, 2016
Welp. There's a magic cup, sword and mirror in the book? Someone tell JK Rowling. /s
posted by sukeban at 8:30 AM on February 10, 2016
I think that the best thing (by which I mean worst thing) is that Clare’s defense will have to be “no, I didn’t copy this book. It is simply that fantasy tropes are so tired and well-worn that I wrote nearly identical characters and plots because cliches are what sell, no matter how trite and frankly offensive."
For example, here is Kenyon’s version:
“Cherise Gautier:
a. Nick’s mother.
b. Lives next door to an African‐American
psychic whose home is decorated with
protection symbols and ancient
artifacts.
c. Was a young mother who has the
blood of angels and humans in her.
d. Gets kidnapped by demons and goes
into a “magical coma.”
vs. Clare’s version:
“Joceylyn Fray:
a. Clary’s mother.
b. Lives next door to an African‐American
psychic whose home is decorated with
protection symbols and ancient
artifacts.
c. Was a young mother who has the
blood of angels and humans in her.
d. Gets kidnapped. Goes into a “magical
coma.”
Either she’s a blatant plagiarist (which we already know that she is, for the record) and has to own it, or she has to admit that she is using the Standard Fantasy Boilerplate Checklist that includes “Mystical Black Psychic whose only role is protecting white people” and “Mothers of protagonists (w/angel blood) who get fridged into magical coma for dramatic effect” and “Bisexual character with black spiky hair” (literally all examples from this document).
Either way, ugh.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 8:31 AM on February 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
For example, here is Kenyon’s version:
“Cherise Gautier:
a. Nick’s mother.
b. Lives next door to an African‐American
psychic whose home is decorated with
protection symbols and ancient
artifacts.
c. Was a young mother who has the
blood of angels and humans in her.
d. Gets kidnapped by demons and goes
into a “magical coma.”
vs. Clare’s version:
“Joceylyn Fray:
a. Clary’s mother.
b. Lives next door to an African‐American
psychic whose home is decorated with
protection symbols and ancient
artifacts.
c. Was a young mother who has the
blood of angels and humans in her.
d. Gets kidnapped. Goes into a “magical
coma.”
Either she’s a blatant plagiarist (which we already know that she is, for the record) and has to own it, or she has to admit that she is using the Standard Fantasy Boilerplate Checklist that includes “Mystical Black Psychic whose only role is protecting white people” and “Mothers of protagonists (w/angel blood) who get fridged into magical coma for dramatic effect” and “Bisexual character with black spiky hair” (literally all examples from this document).
Either way, ugh.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 8:31 AM on February 10, 2016 [6 favorites]
They have actual Magical Negros in these books?
posted by thelonius at 8:34 AM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 8:34 AM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Sure -- and Manic Girl Pixies, too!
posted by wenestvedt at 8:36 AM on February 10, 2016
posted by wenestvedt at 8:36 AM on February 10, 2016
"evil father who has to be killed", "magical swords that battle evil"
are you fucking kidding me
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:59 AM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
are you fucking kidding me
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:59 AM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
She also seems to have a thing for making all of her major POC characters biracial of the partly white variety. I don't know if it's a matter of "foreign but not too foreign" or biracial fetishism.
The thing that really chaps my hide about Cassandra Clare, aside from everything else that people here have already mentioned, is how she treats even her own fans with contempt. She is a bully through and through. I don't know if this lawsuit has any merit - my instinctive IANAL reaction is that it's a reach - but I'll admit to feeling some degree of schadenfreude because it couldn't have happened to a nicer person.
posted by imnotasquirrel at 9:00 AM on February 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
The thing that really chaps my hide about Cassandra Clare, aside from everything else that people here have already mentioned, is how she treats even her own fans with contempt. She is a bully through and through. I don't know if this lawsuit has any merit - my instinctive IANAL reaction is that it's a reach - but I'll admit to feeling some degree of schadenfreude because it couldn't have happened to a nicer person.
posted by imnotasquirrel at 9:00 AM on February 10, 2016 [8 favorites]
Just back up that truck of popcorn to my door please, and add me to the list of people who think it couldn't have happened to a nicer person.
And chiming in with my own anecdote that every pro writer that I personally know to any degree (not naming names - some of them like to keep it secret, some don't care), wrote or still write fanfic. Some writers' fanworks are staggeringly different from their pro work. Some writers' are basically their favorite tropes but applied to someone else's sandbox. It's really interesting to see the dichotomy.
posted by aperturescientist at 9:07 AM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
And chiming in with my own anecdote that every pro writer that I personally know to any degree (not naming names - some of them like to keep it secret, some don't care), wrote or still write fanfic. Some writers' fanworks are staggeringly different from their pro work. Some writers' are basically their favorite tropes but applied to someone else's sandbox. It's really interesting to see the dichotomy.
posted by aperturescientist at 9:07 AM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
I did giggle with schadenfreude-tinged nostalgia when I saw the court pages had Cassandra Clare's real name -- that used to be verboten in fan circles, for fear of her lawyer friend, Heidi8, getting any mention of it shut right down. No erasing this one, though.
posted by rewil at 9:09 AM on February 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by rewil at 9:09 AM on February 10, 2016 [11 favorites]
Oh, the popcorn popper is working overtime. I don't have a dog in this fight, but I will admit to a certain amount of schadenfreude as I watch this play its way out.
Where's Fandom_Wank when we need it?
posted by suelac at 9:11 AM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Where's Fandom_Wank when we need it?
posted by suelac at 9:11 AM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
This "Give the Lawyers of Metafilter a Sad" week is really going gangbusters.
posted by boo_radley at 9:17 AM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by boo_radley at 9:17 AM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Suelac: I haven't checked lately but I bet FFA has a massive thread going. Message me if you want a link.
posted by aperturescientist at 9:19 AM on February 10, 2016
posted by aperturescientist at 9:19 AM on February 10, 2016
Thanks, but I can't get to FFA on a work computer, so I shall linger here instead...
posted by suelac at 9:20 AM on February 10, 2016
posted by suelac at 9:20 AM on February 10, 2016
I'm just going to be over here laughing hysterically in between stuffing giant handfuls of popcorn in my mouth because chickens are apparently coming home to roost.
posted by halcyonday at 9:46 AM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by halcyonday at 9:46 AM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Like basically everyone else who was in HP fandom around the same time Cassie Cla[i]re was, this news fills me with smug vindication.
But yeah, pour one out for Journalfen, because we could really use Fandom Wank right now in our hour of schadenfreude.
posted by yasaman at 9:58 AM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
But yeah, pour one out for Journalfen, because we could really use Fandom Wank right now in our hour of schadenfreude.
posted by yasaman at 9:58 AM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
I did giggle with schadenfreude-tinged nostalgia when I saw the court pages had Cassandra Clare's real name -- that used to be verboten in fan circles, for fear of her lawyer friend, Heidi8, getting any mention of it shut right down.
Why was she so against her real name getting out? Judith Rumelt isn't Weedlord Bonerhitler.
posted by Etrigan at 10:01 AM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Why was she so against her real name getting out? Judith Rumelt isn't Weedlord Bonerhitler.
posted by Etrigan at 10:01 AM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
On the one hand, I want to click to see what FFA has to say about Cla[i]re, because it's not going to be nice.
On the other hand, FFA is basically fandom reddit, with all that implies.
God, I miss FandomWank.
posted by joyceanmachine at 10:04 AM on February 10, 2016
On the other hand, FFA is basically fandom reddit, with all that implies.
God, I miss FandomWank.
posted by joyceanmachine at 10:04 AM on February 10, 2016
Fandom Wank was fandom reddit in its first year, mind you. That first year that has since been deleted because they were suspended from Livejournal was a hive of people making personal attacks, doxxing and generally shotgunning vileness at anyone even associated with their targets.
posted by FritoKAL at 10:13 AM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by FritoKAL at 10:13 AM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Well, my spouse looked up the plots of the Sherrilyn Kenyon books, and said they don't sound similar to the Cassandra Clare ones at all. Sherrilyn Kenyon seems to be writing largely stand-alone paranormal romances of the They Fell To The Ground And Started F***ing school (Oglaf link, very NSFW.) That really isn't much like what Clare is doing, which is long-story-arc Chosen One YA urban fantasy.
posted by kyrademon at 10:15 AM on February 10, 2016
posted by kyrademon at 10:15 AM on February 10, 2016
Granted, the people posting in this thread are going to be a self-selecting bunch. But as someone who is reading merely because the topic is interesting (so no dog in this hunt), what I find striking about the general conversation thus far is how many people are rooting for Judith Rumelt's professional disgrace.
It is a powerful lesson in how talent and hustle are not enough; you have to also consider your reputation as a human being.
posted by sobell at 10:15 AM on February 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
It is a powerful lesson in how talent and hustle are not enough; you have to also consider your reputation as a human being.
posted by sobell at 10:15 AM on February 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
how many people are rooting for Judith Rumelt's professional disgrace
I wouldn't go that far, mostly because I don't think she will be disgraced. She appears to be disgrace-proof. But her behavior in the past has not given me reason to be particularly sympathetic, either...
posted by suelac at 10:19 AM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't go that far, mostly because I don't think she will be disgraced. She appears to be disgrace-proof. But her behavior in the past has not given me reason to be particularly sympathetic, either...
posted by suelac at 10:19 AM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
what I find striking about the general conversation thus far is how many people are rooting for Judith Rumelt's professional disgrace.
I'm definitely getting a lot of schadenfreude at the headache this has to be causing CC, yes. But if this turns out to be as much of a reach as my not-a-lawyer self thinks it is, I will be disappointed if Kenyon's lawsuit prevails. I won't have much individualized sympathy towards CC as a person, but I'll still be disappointed. Regardless of my personal feelings toward CC, a win for Kenyon would set a bad precedent.
And I really don't want to give CC reasons to feed any persecution complex she has, anyway.
She appears to be disgrace-proof.
This is also true.
posted by imnotasquirrel at 10:23 AM on February 10, 2016
I'm definitely getting a lot of schadenfreude at the headache this has to be causing CC, yes. But if this turns out to be as much of a reach as my not-a-lawyer self thinks it is, I will be disappointed if Kenyon's lawsuit prevails. I won't have much individualized sympathy towards CC as a person, but I'll still be disappointed. Regardless of my personal feelings toward CC, a win for Kenyon would set a bad precedent.
And I really don't want to give CC reasons to feed any persecution complex she has, anyway.
She appears to be disgrace-proof.
This is also true.
posted by imnotasquirrel at 10:23 AM on February 10, 2016
she got children to buy her, an adult woman, a laptop. she is beyond any kind of shame or disgrace
posted by poffin boffin at 10:27 AM on February 10, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 10:27 AM on February 10, 2016 [17 favorites]
Why was she so against her real name getting out?
No idea! Mostly likely just basic privacy concerns, which is understandable and totally fair. But the method chosen to enforce that concern did lead to a bit of a Streisand effect, or else as someone who was only tangentially interested in HP fandom I would never have heard it before.
posted by rewil at 10:33 AM on February 10, 2016
No idea! Mostly likely just basic privacy concerns, which is understandable and totally fair. But the method chosen to enforce that concern did lead to a bit of a Streisand effect, or else as someone who was only tangentially interested in HP fandom I would never have heard it before.
posted by rewil at 10:33 AM on February 10, 2016
what I find striking about the general conversation thus far is how many people are rooting for Judith Rumelt's professional disgrace.
TO be quite honest, that is the minimum I am rooting for. If (and it's a very big if) any disgrace comes of this to her, those of us who watched while she (and Heidi8) bullied, stalked, and abused other people -- or worse, were the victims of the bullying, stalking, and abuse -- will be settling for crumbs. There is a lot of hyperbole among the fannish, but it is impossible to say enough bad things about her. Just a truly terrible person.
posted by chonus at 10:33 AM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
TO be quite honest, that is the minimum I am rooting for. If (and it's a very big if) any disgrace comes of this to her, those of us who watched while she (and Heidi8) bullied, stalked, and abused other people -- or worse, were the victims of the bullying, stalking, and abuse -- will be settling for crumbs. There is a lot of hyperbole among the fannish, but it is impossible to say enough bad things about her. Just a truly terrible person.
posted by chonus at 10:33 AM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
From the FFA thread:
"Dream scenario: the bad penny report from Journalfen is entered as evidence."
HA HA HA HA
We truly crave a public shaming. They did serve a communal purpose and it wouldn't be a bad idea to bring back shame for being horribly shitty to other humans. There is precious little shame going around these days and it is very much missing in many quarters.
posted by chonus at 10:42 AM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Dream scenario: the bad penny report from Journalfen is entered as evidence."
HA HA HA HA
We truly crave a public shaming. They did serve a communal purpose and it wouldn't be a bad idea to bring back shame for being horribly shitty to other humans. There is precious little shame going around these days and it is very much missing in many quarters.
posted by chonus at 10:42 AM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Shakespeare must be giggling in his grave right now.
posted by Mental Wimp at 12:02 PM on February 10, 2016
posted by Mental Wimp at 12:02 PM on February 10, 2016
OK, wow, yeah, the actual complaint is much stronger than the pullquotes.
With these kinds of claims, it's a particularly bad idea to try to form an opinion on the subject from headlines and brief summaries. Pretty much any copyright claim will sound ridiculous if you describe it in somewhat more general terms.
posted by straight at 12:23 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
With these kinds of claims, it's a particularly bad idea to try to form an opinion on the subject from headlines and brief summaries. Pretty much any copyright claim will sound ridiculous if you describe it in somewhat more general terms.
posted by straight at 12:23 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
I transitioned from writing a kind of fanfic (whole novels of stuff for large gaming circles) to writing original fiction online to making a good living as a writer (trad and self-pub). It absolutely happens. As Etrigan notes, it's like an ongoing workshop, plus you potentially build a readership that will support you when you publish.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:52 PM on February 10, 2016
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:52 PM on February 10, 2016
Add Seanan Mcguire/Mira Grant and Sarah Rees Brennan to the list of fanfic writers who became successful authors of original fiction. (Although Sarah Rees Brennan has apparently gotten a ton of shit about it over the years because she was open about it.)
Writers who write fanfic have been crossing over into original fiction since Kirk/Spock was the new thing. The difference now is that it's more open, at least for some authors.
Cassie Cla(i)re was one of the first to try to bring her fandom (and she definitely had one) from her fanfic to her original work.
E. L. James was one of the first to file off the serial numbers and re-publish a fanwork as an original work in a traceable manner, and certainly the first to enjoy the level of success she has -- it'd been happening for years, but usually the work in question was either less well-known or more substantively changed between the two steps.
posted by pie ninja at 1:55 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Writers who write fanfic have been crossing over into original fiction since Kirk/Spock was the new thing. The difference now is that it's more open, at least for some authors.
Cassie Cla(i)re was one of the first to try to bring her fandom (and she definitely had one) from her fanfic to her original work.
E. L. James was one of the first to file off the serial numbers and re-publish a fanwork as an original work in a traceable manner, and certainly the first to enjoy the level of success she has -- it'd been happening for years, but usually the work in question was either less well-known or more substantively changed between the two steps.
posted by pie ninja at 1:55 PM on February 10, 2016 [2 favorites]
Many writers have written works that we, for various reasons, choose not to put into the "fanfic" category, but are effectively the same thing, viewed as works of art. Consider the number of well-known writers who've written Sherlock Holmes "pastiches," for instance: from Neil Gaiman to Michael Chabon to Stephen King.
And, yes, irrespective of the merits of the case, couldn't happen to a person who's invited it more from the cosmos. I think there's something awful that can happen to the characters of people who start off relatively powerless in the social hierarchy and are unable to assimilate in their minds their rise in social status.
posted by praemunire at 2:10 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
And, yes, irrespective of the merits of the case, couldn't happen to a person who's invited it more from the cosmos. I think there's something awful that can happen to the characters of people who start off relatively powerless in the social hierarchy and are unable to assimilate in their minds their rise in social status.
posted by praemunire at 2:10 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Rainbow Rowell wrote Harry Potter fanfic, although she started after she had published her own books, and then she wrote a book about a girl who writes fan-fiction about a series that closely resembles Harry Potter, and then she went back and wrote a book about the characters in the fake series that the fictional character in the first book writes fan-fiction about.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 2:51 PM on February 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 2:51 PM on February 10, 2016 [5 favorites]
Also, Ms. Marvel writes fanfic, and I desperately wish I knew where to find it.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:56 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:56 PM on February 10, 2016 [3 favorites]
I liked the Diaries; they were clever and provided family jokes for a good while.
posted by jokeefe at 3:06 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by jokeefe at 3:06 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
"The plaintiff calls MsScribe to the stand, your Honor."
posted by Ian A.T. at 3:31 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Ian A.T. at 3:31 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
MsScribe? Forget MsScribe, "The plaintiff calls expert witness Bad Penny to the stand."
posted by yasaman at 3:36 PM on February 10, 2016
posted by yasaman at 3:36 PM on February 10, 2016
Based on my historical knowledge of how cassieclare has "come up" with her ideas - I am 100% positive that Ms Kenyon had her ideas thieved. Sure, Cassie may have come up with original concepts - but why start now?
posted by cerulgalactus at 4:57 PM on February 10, 2016
posted by cerulgalactus at 4:57 PM on February 10, 2016
Hah. Wow. Okay.
This is all extremely weird for me.
Look, I get that The Internet loves to hate on Cassie Clare like they love few other things, but like...I feel that I can't in good conscience sit here and read this thread and not say anything.
So, briefly.
1) Cassie and I were roommates for a couple of years, and we were in the same small circle of close-knit IRL friends during the period where most of the Fandom Drama being referred to in this thread was happening. Like. Just for context. We're no longer particularly close, but that's neither here nor there.
2) The way that people treat "Bad Penny" like some kind of academic text is really really strange to me. It's a gigantic weird ranty document that's borderline unreadable, and a ton of important shit that was actually going on in people's lives during this time is completely missing from it. (I think I'm mentioned twice -- both times in connection to someone being mad at people at Nimbus? Eh.)
3) Okay, the "Laptop Gate" thing? Cassie's apartment got broken into. A bunch of shit was stolen, including the laptops of all the people who were living there. Her friend Heidi set up a paypal or whatever so people could donate to help replace the laptops. Someone else -- I think Copperbadge? It's been a while. -- asked Heidi to unlock the LJ entry so they could link to it. Heidi should NOT HAVE DONE THIS but she did, and then a ton of fangirls donated to it, and here we are. And like....I don't know. Does it make someone an asshole because a bunch of strangers who enjoy their work decided to donate money after a bad thing happened to them? I get that Cassie's like the Big Fandom Bad Guy but she's also just a regular person, who at that point had very little money and was only just getting started as a novelist. Her apartment got broken into and thousands of dollars of shit was stolen from her, her boyfriend and her roommate, people who could not afford to replace those things. I think it was really nice of Heidi to try and help her out. I think it's too bad that Heidi didn't have the foresight to see what would happen when she made that paypal donation thing public.
I don't know, if anyone actually cares about this stuff I can talk about it, but mostly it's very old history that people only care about because her success has kept the hate fresh.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 5:25 PM on February 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
This is all extremely weird for me.
Look, I get that The Internet loves to hate on Cassie Clare like they love few other things, but like...I feel that I can't in good conscience sit here and read this thread and not say anything.
So, briefly.
1) Cassie and I were roommates for a couple of years, and we were in the same small circle of close-knit IRL friends during the period where most of the Fandom Drama being referred to in this thread was happening. Like. Just for context. We're no longer particularly close, but that's neither here nor there.
2) The way that people treat "Bad Penny" like some kind of academic text is really really strange to me. It's a gigantic weird ranty document that's borderline unreadable, and a ton of important shit that was actually going on in people's lives during this time is completely missing from it. (I think I'm mentioned twice -- both times in connection to someone being mad at people at Nimbus? Eh.)
3) Okay, the "Laptop Gate" thing? Cassie's apartment got broken into. A bunch of shit was stolen, including the laptops of all the people who were living there. Her friend Heidi set up a paypal or whatever so people could donate to help replace the laptops. Someone else -- I think Copperbadge? It's been a while. -- asked Heidi to unlock the LJ entry so they could link to it. Heidi should NOT HAVE DONE THIS but she did, and then a ton of fangirls donated to it, and here we are. And like....I don't know. Does it make someone an asshole because a bunch of strangers who enjoy their work decided to donate money after a bad thing happened to them? I get that Cassie's like the Big Fandom Bad Guy but she's also just a regular person, who at that point had very little money and was only just getting started as a novelist. Her apartment got broken into and thousands of dollars of shit was stolen from her, her boyfriend and her roommate, people who could not afford to replace those things. I think it was really nice of Heidi to try and help her out. I think it's too bad that Heidi didn't have the foresight to see what would happen when she made that paypal donation thing public.
I don't know, if anyone actually cares about this stuff I can talk about it, but mostly it's very old history that people only care about because her success has kept the hate fresh.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 5:25 PM on February 10, 2016 [7 favorites]
This thread is a fucking trip, I tell you what.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 5:27 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Narrative Priorities at 5:27 PM on February 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
most of the Fandom Drama
Calling the uproar over crappy behavior by someone "drama," much less capital F-Fandom capital D-Drama, is pretty much an auto-disqualify for disingenuousness. Ditto for "hate." Come on. This wasn't two thirteen-year-old girls fighting over who Spike would date or giving the pretty new girl in eighth grade the side-eye. This was some contemptible behavior by a grown woman who has never really owned up to her wrongs. There may be some room for an argument that it was long enough ago that she's changed and grown, etc., but not accompanied by clumsy rhetoric still trying to deny or minimize the initial culpability.
posted by praemunire at 5:52 PM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Calling the uproar over crappy behavior by someone "drama," much less capital F-Fandom capital D-Drama, is pretty much an auto-disqualify for disingenuousness. Ditto for "hate." Come on. This wasn't two thirteen-year-old girls fighting over who Spike would date or giving the pretty new girl in eighth grade the side-eye. This was some contemptible behavior by a grown woman who has never really owned up to her wrongs. There may be some room for an argument that it was long enough ago that she's changed and grown, etc., but not accompanied by clumsy rhetoric still trying to deny or minimize the initial culpability.
posted by praemunire at 5:52 PM on February 10, 2016 [4 favorites]
Count me as one of the popcorn eating and schadefreude feeling peeps from Fandom Wank, and as someone worried about the implications of a trial. I never had any particular feelings about CC as a person, but I avoided her books 'cause plagiarism just makes me mad and I have to admit now I'm glad that I did. I kind of wish we could dive into the annals of FW, but let's be clear - FW was ALWAYS more about the mock than the justice. Don't try to make us out as some paragons of virtue balancing injustice in the universe through well timed snark.
posted by Deoridhe at 6:05 PM on February 10, 2016
posted by Deoridhe at 6:05 PM on February 10, 2016
but not accompanied by clumsy rhetoric still trying to deny or minimize the initial culpability.
I'm a little tongue-in-cheek about the way I discuss my days in Harry Potter fandom because that's how I've chosen to deal with my own past hurts and traumas. I absolutely did not mean to be dismissive of other people's lived experience. I am EXCRUCIATINGLY aware of the impact that fandom can have on people's lives, in part because of the impact it had on my own.
If I was trying to make any point, it's that -- as a person who was directly affected by a lot of this stuff in her day-to-day life over multiple years -- it's disquieting to me the way that the fan community as a whole has turned CC into a villainous caricature.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 6:55 PM on February 10, 2016
I'm a little tongue-in-cheek about the way I discuss my days in Harry Potter fandom because that's how I've chosen to deal with my own past hurts and traumas. I absolutely did not mean to be dismissive of other people's lived experience. I am EXCRUCIATINGLY aware of the impact that fandom can have on people's lives, in part because of the impact it had on my own.
If I was trying to make any point, it's that -- as a person who was directly affected by a lot of this stuff in her day-to-day life over multiple years -- it's disquieting to me the way that the fan community as a whole has turned CC into a villainous caricature.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 6:55 PM on February 10, 2016
it's disquieting to me the way that the fan community as a whole has turned CC into a villainous caricature.
She's a vile, hateful person. Even vile, hateful people have other people in their lives who don't think that they're so bad, and I get the sense that that is the slot you fit into, NP. She bullied people in *very harmful ways*. This wasn't just playground pointing and laughing. She and heidi8 *hunted people down* in their real lives. She threatened people. She had Heidi8 threaten people (and by people I generally mean "young, naive girls") with legal action over *nothing*. She abused her power as a "name" over and over again. I get that you knew her and so saw other sides of her, but that doesn't mean that the sides she showed fandom weren't particularly nasty, cruel, and abusive.
posted by chonus at 10:37 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
She's a vile, hateful person. Even vile, hateful people have other people in their lives who don't think that they're so bad, and I get the sense that that is the slot you fit into, NP. She bullied people in *very harmful ways*. This wasn't just playground pointing and laughing. She and heidi8 *hunted people down* in their real lives. She threatened people. She had Heidi8 threaten people (and by people I generally mean "young, naive girls") with legal action over *nothing*. She abused her power as a "name" over and over again. I get that you knew her and so saw other sides of her, but that doesn't mean that the sides she showed fandom weren't particularly nasty, cruel, and abusive.
posted by chonus at 10:37 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
Heidi didn't need Cassie to tell people to go after them with legal threats, she did enough of that on her own. I left HP fandom because of a threat. If any MeFite wonders why most of my comments here about fandom in general are so hostile, that's why.
This here lawsuit is kind of dodgy, though, at least in terms of plagiarism. The marks confusion, on the other hand...
posted by Electric Elf at 11:41 AM on February 11, 2016
This here lawsuit is kind of dodgy, though, at least in terms of plagiarism. The marks confusion, on the other hand...
posted by Electric Elf at 11:41 AM on February 11, 2016
I want to point out that the "People donated money for laptops" was not the problem.
http://fanlore.org/wiki/CharityWank
The problem was Heidi's response to other fundraising requests.
posted by FritoKAL at 5:28 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
http://fanlore.org/wiki/CharityWank
The problem was Heidi's response to other fundraising requests.
posted by FritoKAL at 5:28 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
There is precious little shame going around these days and it is very much missing in many quarters.
Are we on the same internet?
posted by ariadne's threadspinner at 7:05 PM on February 11, 2016
Are we on the same internet?
posted by ariadne's threadspinner at 7:05 PM on February 11, 2016
Even vile, hateful people have other people in their lives who don't think that they're so bad, and I get the sense that that is the slot you fit into, NP. She bullied people in *very harmful ways*. This wasn't just playground pointing and laughing.
I am near-certain that CC has done more direct and personal and permanent harm to me than to anyone else in this thread, within a fandom context to some extent but in my offline life especially.
I absolutely should not have gotten involved in this thread. I had points I wanted to make about the stories fandom tells about itself but it was not a good idea for me to be the one trying to make them.
I'll bow out now.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 5:41 AM on February 12, 2016
I am near-certain that CC has done more direct and personal and permanent harm to me than to anyone else in this thread, within a fandom context to some extent but in my offline life especially.
I absolutely should not have gotten involved in this thread. I had points I wanted to make about the stories fandom tells about itself but it was not a good idea for me to be the one trying to make them.
I'll bow out now.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 5:41 AM on February 12, 2016
me: There is precious little shame going around these days and it is very much missing in many quarters.
ariadne's threadspinner: Are we on the same internet?
Lots of shaming; very little shame.
posted by chonus at 9:14 AM on February 16, 2016
ariadne's threadspinner: Are we on the same internet?
Lots of shaming; very little shame.
posted by chonus at 9:14 AM on February 16, 2016
Lots of shaming; very little shame.
Is there a word for the type of shame that one feels when one has been shamed as opposed to the type of shame one feels when one has done something shameful? When you're shamed-for-bad-reasons, you tend to feel shame, but it's unjust shame.
(Sometimes people are shamed for shameful things and should legitimately feel old-fashioned shame, but right now I am witness to so much activist fuckery/shaming in my community that it seems easy to forget that.)
posted by Frowner at 9:27 AM on February 16, 2016
Is there a word for the type of shame that one feels when one has been shamed as opposed to the type of shame one feels when one has done something shameful? When you're shamed-for-bad-reasons, you tend to feel shame, but it's unjust shame.
(Sometimes people are shamed for shameful things and should legitimately feel old-fashioned shame, but right now I am witness to so much activist fuckery/shaming in my community that it seems easy to forget that.)
posted by Frowner at 9:27 AM on February 16, 2016
lets not forget that lev grossman published HP/Narnia fanfiction.
And whatever this thing is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Number_of_the_Beast_%28novel%29
posted by Jacen at 10:52 AM on February 25, 2016
And whatever this thing is https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Number_of_the_Beast_%28novel%29
posted by Jacen at 10:52 AM on February 25, 2016
lets not forget that lev grossman published HP/Narnia fanfiction.
Let's not re-argue the very clear distinctions between plagiarism and fanfiction. They are not the same. This discussion is about plagiarism.
(Also, The Magicians isn't fanfiction. Neither is The Number of the Beast. The Grossman is in conversation with Potter & Narnia. The Heinlein is... meta-fiction, I would guess. It's been a long time since I read it, but IIRC it's full of references to other work, most of which is out of copyright.)
posted by suelac at 11:43 AM on February 25, 2016
Let's not re-argue the very clear distinctions between plagiarism and fanfiction. They are not the same. This discussion is about plagiarism.
(Also, The Magicians isn't fanfiction. Neither is The Number of the Beast. The Grossman is in conversation with Potter & Narnia. The Heinlein is... meta-fiction, I would guess. It's been a long time since I read it, but IIRC it's full of references to other work, most of which is out of copyright.)
posted by suelac at 11:43 AM on February 25, 2016
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posted by thelonius at 7:38 AM on February 10, 2016