The Death of the Most Generous Nation on Earth
February 11, 2016 5:27 AM Subscribe
Sweden's initial humanitarian response, and subsequent withdrawal in the face of the European refugee crisis. (Single link foreign policy article.)
The United States would have to take in over 6 million refugees to match the per capita amount that the article says Sweden expects to take (the US took in less than seventy thousand total in 2015). I am far more sympathetic to the Swedes tightening their policy than I am towards my own government's xenophobic indifference.
posted by Wretch729 at 6:42 AM on February 11, 2016 [45 favorites]
posted by Wretch729 at 6:42 AM on February 11, 2016 [45 favorites]
mikewebkist, how is Sweden supposed to afford this?
"Sweden expects to spend about 7 percent of its $100 billion budget next year on refugees. The real number is somewhat higher, since the costs of educating and training those who have already received asylum are not included in that figure. It is, in any case, double the 2015 budget. Where will the additional funds come from? It’s not clear yet, but since the cost of caring for refugees is considered a form of development assistance, Sweden has already cut 30 percent of its very generous foreign aid budget, which largely goes to fortify the very countries from which people are now fleeing, to help make up the difference. Other European donors, including Norway, have done so as well."
This is the beginning of what critics said - having refugees come to (more expensive) Europe is reducing the budget available to send aid to people that stayed put in refugee camps in Turkey and Lebanon, where each dollar spent could have been more cost-effective because the overall cost of living is lower. This is overall bad for the people in those camps. Fewer people can be helped monetarily if they come to Europe. I don't see what this particular part has to do with racism and nativism. Where will the money come from to feed and house these people in Sweden? I'm really curious what people think the answer to this question is.
posted by permiechickie at 6:44 AM on February 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
"Sweden expects to spend about 7 percent of its $100 billion budget next year on refugees. The real number is somewhat higher, since the costs of educating and training those who have already received asylum are not included in that figure. It is, in any case, double the 2015 budget. Where will the additional funds come from? It’s not clear yet, but since the cost of caring for refugees is considered a form of development assistance, Sweden has already cut 30 percent of its very generous foreign aid budget, which largely goes to fortify the very countries from which people are now fleeing, to help make up the difference. Other European donors, including Norway, have done so as well."
This is the beginning of what critics said - having refugees come to (more expensive) Europe is reducing the budget available to send aid to people that stayed put in refugee camps in Turkey and Lebanon, where each dollar spent could have been more cost-effective because the overall cost of living is lower. This is overall bad for the people in those camps. Fewer people can be helped monetarily if they come to Europe. I don't see what this particular part has to do with racism and nativism. Where will the money come from to feed and house these people in Sweden? I'm really curious what people think the answer to this question is.
posted by permiechickie at 6:44 AM on February 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
If you construct your sense of nationhood and identity on ethnicity, then you are setting yourself up for nativism and xenophobia. This is while classic nationalism leads to genocide.
But if you instead consciously construct a national identity based on openness, diversity and respect for difference, you still have backlash, but it's not legitimated.
Canada has not taken as many refugees -- but we still have a higher immigration rate than many countries, including the United States. About 1/5 of all Canadians were born in a different country. But we treat Canadian identity like a club: you can join, sign up here, please bring us more tasty food. We don't talk about inherent Canadian culture: samosas are just as Canadian as bannock (Scottish or Ojibway).
I'm not saying everything is hunky-dory - and this kind of national identity is easier to construct in an immigrant country. Also, it must be consciously constructed and constantly maintained: recently, both the Quebec gov't and the Harper conservatives damaged its credibility with their attacks on multiculturalism and tolerance.
But ethnic divisions are not inevitable: how you conceive of citizenship and national identity shape them.
posted by jb at 6:49 AM on February 11, 2016 [25 favorites]
But if you instead consciously construct a national identity based on openness, diversity and respect for difference, you still have backlash, but it's not legitimated.
Canada has not taken as many refugees -- but we still have a higher immigration rate than many countries, including the United States. About 1/5 of all Canadians were born in a different country. But we treat Canadian identity like a club: you can join, sign up here, please bring us more tasty food. We don't talk about inherent Canadian culture: samosas are just as Canadian as bannock (Scottish or Ojibway).
I'm not saying everything is hunky-dory - and this kind of national identity is easier to construct in an immigrant country. Also, it must be consciously constructed and constantly maintained: recently, both the Quebec gov't and the Harper conservatives damaged its credibility with their attacks on multiculturalism and tolerance.
But ethnic divisions are not inevitable: how you conceive of citizenship and national identity shape them.
posted by jb at 6:49 AM on February 11, 2016 [25 favorites]
Where will the money come from to feed and house these people in Sweden?
If Sweden is like anywhere else in the world, billions upon billions of dollars in unpaid taxes and dirty money are hidden in havens by everyone from Apple Computer to Mr. A. Oligarch. Start there. Meanwhile, hand-wringing articles like this one contribute directly to the climate in which 100 masked neo-Nazis decide to attack destitute children in Sweden.
posted by colie at 6:53 AM on February 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
If Sweden is like anywhere else in the world, billions upon billions of dollars in unpaid taxes and dirty money are hidden in havens by everyone from Apple Computer to Mr. A. Oligarch. Start there. Meanwhile, hand-wringing articles like this one contribute directly to the climate in which 100 masked neo-Nazis decide to attack destitute children in Sweden.
posted by colie at 6:53 AM on February 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
how is Sweden supposed to afford this?
This is the same argument used in the US about Mexicans: they are a drain on the treasury. But study after study has shown that immigration is a net GAIN for BOTH the immigrant and the accepting country. The mechanism is not complicated: make it very easy for people to get jobs and make housing inexpensive and everyone wins.
posted by mikewebkist at 6:59 AM on February 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
This is the same argument used in the US about Mexicans: they are a drain on the treasury. But study after study has shown that immigration is a net GAIN for BOTH the immigrant and the accepting country. The mechanism is not complicated: make it very easy for people to get jobs and make housing inexpensive and everyone wins.
posted by mikewebkist at 6:59 AM on February 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
To give some perspective: about 14.3 % of the Swedish population is foreign born, while 20.6 % of the Canadian population is foreign born -- and 19.1% of the Canadian population as a whole are visible minorities (not white, and also not Aboriginal).
Australia has an even higher foreign born population - something like 26%. But things have been more fraught there with greater political legitimacy for anti-immigration positions. A comparison of Canadian and Australian politics would be quite interesting.
posted by jb at 7:00 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
Australia has an even higher foreign born population - something like 26%. But things have been more fraught there with greater political legitimacy for anti-immigration positions. A comparison of Canadian and Australian politics would be quite interesting.
posted by jb at 7:00 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
And to add some further perspective, only around 13% of the US population is foreign born. So we're more nationalist and less accepting of immegrants than Sweden.
"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free," Yeah right.
posted by sotonohito at 7:21 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free," Yeah right.
posted by sotonohito at 7:21 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
I know my position is unpopular, but I'm going to respond once more. If there was a pool of money from tax evaders that was easily accessible, wouldn't it already be accessed by now? I don't see how more money will appear. Money will be taken from somewhere else, and if that somewhere else is a politically unpopular place to take money from, then nativist sentiment will increase and liberal democracy will suffer.
In the long-term yes, this may be great for Sweden's economy and demographics as these refugees integrate and get jobs, but how long will this take? How will the socialist state remain solvent during this period of integration? It's not the same as Central American laborers moving to America - these immigrants move in response to jobs, and when no jobs appear they often go back. As the article states, and as is obvious, the level of education that refugees often bring is lower than what the Swedish economy requires in a laborer, for the most part. Education and re-training will increase the period of integration before refugees can start contributing through their labor.
My belief is that what's happening now will continue to happen (through more wars, and soon climate change), unless we in the global North and West band together and make a better alternative. Refugee camps/towns need to be a vastly more functional place. I thought Reihan Salam, linking to a paywalled article in Foreign Affairs, had some good commentary on this.
posted by permiechickie at 7:33 AM on February 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
In the long-term yes, this may be great for Sweden's economy and demographics as these refugees integrate and get jobs, but how long will this take? How will the socialist state remain solvent during this period of integration? It's not the same as Central American laborers moving to America - these immigrants move in response to jobs, and when no jobs appear they often go back. As the article states, and as is obvious, the level of education that refugees often bring is lower than what the Swedish economy requires in a laborer, for the most part. Education and re-training will increase the period of integration before refugees can start contributing through their labor.
My belief is that what's happening now will continue to happen (through more wars, and soon climate change), unless we in the global North and West band together and make a better alternative. Refugee camps/towns need to be a vastly more functional place. I thought Reihan Salam, linking to a paywalled article in Foreign Affairs, had some good commentary on this.
posted by permiechickie at 7:33 AM on February 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
I am far more sympathetic to the Swedes tightening their policy than I am towards my own government's xenophobic indifference.
Here, here. This is the United States of America. We should be taking most of them, especially the ones who want to emigrate permanently to a new country. It's what we do. (See also: Narco War refugees, where we're also failing to live up to our heritage as the shining city on the hill, with gates open wide.)
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:34 AM on February 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
Here, here. This is the United States of America. We should be taking most of them, especially the ones who want to emigrate permanently to a new country. It's what we do. (See also: Narco War refugees, where we're also failing to live up to our heritage as the shining city on the hill, with gates open wide.)
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:34 AM on February 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
And I'll add again that I think a very good argument could be made that the USA has a moral obligation to take in 100% of all refugees from the fallout of Bush's wars.
America can't just kick down two governments and set off a chain of revolutions by endless drone campaigns without taking some responsibility for the inevitable repercussions of such wanton acts. Bush bankrupted America for at least a decade with his wars, and the humanitarian crisis he instigated is going to cost many more trillions than even his foolhardy and vainglorious wars did.
And yet here sits America, taking in a few paltry thousand, with the very same Republicans who drove the war and cheerlead the war and called anyone who disagreed with the wars anti-American objectively pro-terrorist traitors and they have the sheer gall to now shriek in outrage over taking in even those few thousand refugees they created.
I am thoroughly disgusted with the Republican half of the US population. They imagine a world where they can claim to be moral, claim that America is moral, while starting wars for no good reason and then completely ignoring the inevitable result of those wars. And worse, now that they see the magnitude of the refugee crisis they've created, many of those self same warmongering Republicans who started the problem now say that we must bomb and murder even more.
I have no idea how to fix my nation. I don't even know where to start, how to start, what steps might be even faintly reasonable or likely to produce success. How do you fix a place where half the population is so steeped in evil that they feel justified and righteous in starting wars and then suggesting genocide as a means of resolving the refugee crisis those wars started?
posted by sotonohito at 7:35 AM on February 11, 2016 [45 favorites]
America can't just kick down two governments and set off a chain of revolutions by endless drone campaigns without taking some responsibility for the inevitable repercussions of such wanton acts. Bush bankrupted America for at least a decade with his wars, and the humanitarian crisis he instigated is going to cost many more trillions than even his foolhardy and vainglorious wars did.
And yet here sits America, taking in a few paltry thousand, with the very same Republicans who drove the war and cheerlead the war and called anyone who disagreed with the wars anti-American objectively pro-terrorist traitors and they have the sheer gall to now shriek in outrage over taking in even those few thousand refugees they created.
I am thoroughly disgusted with the Republican half of the US population. They imagine a world where they can claim to be moral, claim that America is moral, while starting wars for no good reason and then completely ignoring the inevitable result of those wars. And worse, now that they see the magnitude of the refugee crisis they've created, many of those self same warmongering Republicans who started the problem now say that we must bomb and murder even more.
I have no idea how to fix my nation. I don't even know where to start, how to start, what steps might be even faintly reasonable or likely to produce success. How do you fix a place where half the population is so steeped in evil that they feel justified and righteous in starting wars and then suggesting genocide as a means of resolving the refugee crisis those wars started?
posted by sotonohito at 7:35 AM on February 11, 2016 [45 favorites]
The "how can they afford this?" thing is a bit of a canard isn't it? Presumably these new arrivals will begin to participate in the economy which will grow to include them and more than pay back the investment. That is, unless they get marginalized.
posted by klanawa at 7:37 AM on February 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by klanawa at 7:37 AM on February 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
America can't just kick down two governments and set off a chain of revolutions by endless drone campaigns without taking some responsibility for the inevitable repercussions of such wanton acts.
While I agree with most of what you are saying here, I object to one trend in the "you break it you buy it" argument: it acts as though refugees are PUNISHMENT. They are not. Immigrants could be and should be seen as a GIFT.
posted by mikewebkist at 7:39 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
While I agree with most of what you are saying here, I object to one trend in the "you break it you buy it" argument: it acts as though refugees are PUNISHMENT. They are not. Immigrants could be and should be seen as a GIFT.
posted by mikewebkist at 7:39 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
very same Republicans who drove the war
We've had eight years of Obama and four years of Hillary as SOS (who as senator voted for the war), so let's be bi-partisan in shelling out blame.
posted by IndigoJones at 7:44 AM on February 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
We've had eight years of Obama and four years of Hillary as SOS (who as senator voted for the war), so let's be bi-partisan in shelling out blame.
posted by IndigoJones at 7:44 AM on February 11, 2016 [10 favorites]
The (formerly) staid Foreign Policy magazine runs an article with the hyperbolic headline "The Death of the Most Generous Nation on Earth"? I think they are becoming unhinged by He Whose Name Cannot Be Spoken (except in the Trump issue).
posted by kozad at 7:56 AM on February 11, 2016
posted by kozad at 7:56 AM on February 11, 2016
Canada has not taken as many refugees
No kidding. For perspective here, we're in the process of taking in 25k, possibly 50k. To match Sweden, we would need to take in closer to 700k, perhaps a bit more. 50k we can do without changing budgets much, but a mass influx of nearly three quarters of a million people would be another thing entirely, qualitatively.
posted by bonehead at 7:59 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
No kidding. For perspective here, we're in the process of taking in 25k, possibly 50k. To match Sweden, we would need to take in closer to 700k, perhaps a bit more. 50k we can do without changing budgets much, but a mass influx of nearly three quarters of a million people would be another thing entirely, qualitatively.
posted by bonehead at 7:59 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
But study after study has shown that immigration is a net GAIN for BOTH the immigrant and the accepting country.
They show no such thing. The benefit for the accepting country depends on the immigrants. Educated skilled middle classes fleeing Communism? Gain. Unskilled illiterate peasants? Loss.
posted by alasdair at 8:02 AM on February 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
They show no such thing. The benefit for the accepting country depends on the immigrants. Educated skilled middle classes fleeing Communism? Gain. Unskilled illiterate peasants? Loss.
posted by alasdair at 8:02 AM on February 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
The "how can they afford this?" thing is a bit of a canard isn't it?
It is if your influx is less than 1 person in a thousand. If it's two people per hundred, that's going to require some pretty significant shifts in national budgets and priorities, at least for a few years. More than that, it's going to mean every volunteer group and social service organization will be well beyond capacity.
posted by bonehead at 8:02 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
It is if your influx is less than 1 person in a thousand. If it's two people per hundred, that's going to require some pretty significant shifts in national budgets and priorities, at least for a few years. More than that, it's going to mean every volunteer group and social service organization will be well beyond capacity.
posted by bonehead at 8:02 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's funny how I keep reading so much about 'European Values' and our lovely culture and how great it is...when in fact, the whole place was complete rubble 60 years ago or so, with 70 million dead after a conflict which had much of its roots in theories of what was required to keep a nation state morally and racially healthy...
posted by colie at 8:11 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by colie at 8:11 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
permiechickie, leaving people in refugee camps is not the answer. People can contribute economically if they are allowed to find jobs, make friends, communicate, network. These are hard to impossible to accomplish when they are isolated in refugee camps. Here's an interview on Fresh Air with someone who interviewed refugees in Kenya. There are camps within Europe where newcomers (as they prefer to be called) are being deprived of access to the internet. How do you find a job or even attempt to integrate without internet access in this day and age?
posted by antinomia at 8:15 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by antinomia at 8:15 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
If their neighbors had pitched in, Sweden could have afforded the price of its remarkable generosity. At the Davos forum in January, Swedish Prime Minister Stefan Lofven said bluntly, “We are a continent of 500 million people; we could easily handle this task if we cooperated, if we met this as a union and not as individual member states.” But Europe did not cooperate.This slim possibility of EU cooperation, and of the United States doing an about-face to take in its share, and of Turkey allowing its 2.5 million Syrian "guests" the right to work and to be recognized as refugees, are where I have the most hope. And the least.
posted by daveliepmann at 8:25 AM on February 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
60 years ago or so, with 70 million dead
70 years ago, 60 million dead.
posted by biffa at 8:30 AM on February 11, 2016
70 years ago, 60 million dead.
posted by biffa at 8:30 AM on February 11, 2016
I do not accept the notion that we are obligated to take in huge numbers of refugess because of the Bush invasion of Iraq...Perhaps we should for OTHER reasons take in refugees, but many of those fleeing Syria are people caught up in a struggle between the Assad govt and the rebels and ISIS. Then too there is a non-stop battle between Sunni and Shia, a struggle that ought not be blamed on Bush.
I note too that many comments refer to immigration, here in the U.S., or Canada, etc., but nowhere are comments directed at what many feel a root cause of distrust of this non-stop wave of immigrants: Muslim beliefs. It was never easy for non-Muslims in Muslim majority nations, and so I hear over and over, and read often, a fear of bringing in thousands of Muslims.
For better or worse, this is an issue that needs to be discussed, explored, and not simply ignored while nations deal with a huge problem of refugees seeking safety and new lives.
posted by Postroad at 8:37 AM on February 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
I note too that many comments refer to immigration, here in the U.S., or Canada, etc., but nowhere are comments directed at what many feel a root cause of distrust of this non-stop wave of immigrants: Muslim beliefs. It was never easy for non-Muslims in Muslim majority nations, and so I hear over and over, and read often, a fear of bringing in thousands of Muslims.
For better or worse, this is an issue that needs to be discussed, explored, and not simply ignored while nations deal with a huge problem of refugees seeking safety and new lives.
posted by Postroad at 8:37 AM on February 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
They show no such thing. The benefit for the accepting country depends on the immigrants. Educated skilled middle classes fleeing Communism? Gain. Unskilled illiterate peasants? Loss.
Posted with authority but without evidence.
posted by srboisvert at 8:39 AM on February 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Posted with authority but without evidence.
posted by srboisvert at 8:39 AM on February 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
This is just the beginning. We've had a temporary reprieve during the winter, when the Aegean and Mediterranean are relatively impassable, but now that spring is around the corner more refugees are going to begin to migrate to Europe.
The current plan is apparently to try to stop them in Greece and Italy: these countries have been ordered by the EU to build and support 'hotspots,' i.e. massive rufugee camps, and prevent the refugees from continuing to northern Europe. This is more or less permiechickie's proposal, I guess. If these are not built, there is talk of punishing Greece by kicking it out of Schengen (and the EU?).
I don't see what the ultimate outcome is. The 'hotspot' plan seems doomed to failure -- these refugees do not want to stay in Greece and Italy. Sweden will not accept more refugees. The rest of the Nordic countries are not far before them. Another year of this and Merkel's government, already uneasy, will fall. Fences and the end of Schengen seem to me the most likely, and every effort will be made to keep refugees out of Northern Europe.
posted by crazy with stars at 8:43 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
The current plan is apparently to try to stop them in Greece and Italy: these countries have been ordered by the EU to build and support 'hotspots,' i.e. massive rufugee camps, and prevent the refugees from continuing to northern Europe. This is more or less permiechickie's proposal, I guess. If these are not built, there is talk of punishing Greece by kicking it out of Schengen (and the EU?).
I don't see what the ultimate outcome is. The 'hotspot' plan seems doomed to failure -- these refugees do not want to stay in Greece and Italy. Sweden will not accept more refugees. The rest of the Nordic countries are not far before them. Another year of this and Merkel's government, already uneasy, will fall. Fences and the end of Schengen seem to me the most likely, and every effort will be made to keep refugees out of Northern Europe.
posted by crazy with stars at 8:43 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
>but many of those fleeing Syria are people caught up in a struggle between the Assad govt and the rebels and ISIS.
And if Bush hadn't kicked over Iraq and Afghanistan, and started an endless series of drone wars that Obama then aggressively continued, do you really think ISIS would be a thing?
It sprang into the power vacuum the USA created.
ISIS is our fault. And by "our" I mean the fault of all Americans. We allowed it to happen, it is on us, the blood is on our hands, and I think the moral responsibility is on us to accept the flow of refugees we helped create.
To blame this on the longstanding Shia/Sunni conflict and absolve Bush, and America, of the responsibility is factually incorrect.
I say a case could be made for 100% to America. But regardless I think America should be taking millions, not the paltry few thousand it says one day it may take. And, remember, those paltry thousands are being spoken of by the cheerleaders of the wars that created them as if they were somehow a vile invasion force.
posted by sotonohito at 8:44 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
And if Bush hadn't kicked over Iraq and Afghanistan, and started an endless series of drone wars that Obama then aggressively continued, do you really think ISIS would be a thing?
It sprang into the power vacuum the USA created.
ISIS is our fault. And by "our" I mean the fault of all Americans. We allowed it to happen, it is on us, the blood is on our hands, and I think the moral responsibility is on us to accept the flow of refugees we helped create.
To blame this on the longstanding Shia/Sunni conflict and absolve Bush, and America, of the responsibility is factually incorrect.
I say a case could be made for 100% to America. But regardless I think America should be taking millions, not the paltry few thousand it says one day it may take. And, remember, those paltry thousands are being spoken of by the cheerleaders of the wars that created them as if they were somehow a vile invasion force.
posted by sotonohito at 8:44 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
I am not absolving Bush. And yes ISIS came into existence with leadership from the Iraq officer corps, fired under Bush orders, but the thousands there and still joining have for a variety of reasons joined to be part of a Caliphate, and Bush need not be the simple REASON for all that has taken place for all these years. Iran and Russia and the U.S. and Saudi Arabia and Turkey are all involved in a proxy war in this area, and no matter how it began, it has become both complex and horrible. That entire region was unstable and a construct that grew out of the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, and secret deal between France and England and that too led to the mess. To say: Bush is at fault so let the U.S. take in most of those fleeing. Well, that is not going to happen.
posted by Postroad at 9:02 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Postroad at 9:02 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
When I visited Europe as an American, I saw far too many indications that immigration into Europe would not pan out well. The contrast with the US is too glaring.
In the US, national identity is based on a simplistic reading of a political manifesto written in 1776 by an autistic plantation owner. If you immigrate to the US, you're not just allowed to take on that identity. You're required to. Once you've taken on that identity as your own, if anyone questions that decision, HIS identity as an American is called into question, not yours.
In Europe, that is Simply. Not. The. Case. Taking on a French/Swedish/Belgian identity is far more onerous, requires discarding your prior identity to an extent that you're liable to find demeaning, and your reward for doing so is nil.
But that's okay, because you don't really have to do it, right? Well, that has its own catches.
That simplistic reading of Thomas Jefferson's screed leads to some implied conclusions embedded in American identity, such conclusions as "women have the right to walk outside without a chaperone, and you have to accept it." Or "it's not okay to assault people on the street just because they're wearing Jewish skullcaps."
Those same implied mores are embedded in French and Swedish identity too. They are NOT embedded in the mores of other nations, and it's stupid to stay in denial about it. And European nations have to be able to stand up for those aspects of their identity without also doing stupid things like banning the hijab or demanding that schoolchildren eat pork.
I'm in a bit of a funk from knowing just how many European borders I crossed that are no longer open. I was thrilled to walk past the Austrian customs house in Brenner Pass and see that it was turned into a rest stop for tourists. Now it's back to being a customs house. I also took the train over the Oresund Bridge, and that's no longer a thing you can casually do.
posted by ocschwar at 9:03 AM on February 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
In the US, national identity is based on a simplistic reading of a political manifesto written in 1776 by an autistic plantation owner. If you immigrate to the US, you're not just allowed to take on that identity. You're required to. Once you've taken on that identity as your own, if anyone questions that decision, HIS identity as an American is called into question, not yours.
In Europe, that is Simply. Not. The. Case. Taking on a French/Swedish/Belgian identity is far more onerous, requires discarding your prior identity to an extent that you're liable to find demeaning, and your reward for doing so is nil.
But that's okay, because you don't really have to do it, right? Well, that has its own catches.
That simplistic reading of Thomas Jefferson's screed leads to some implied conclusions embedded in American identity, such conclusions as "women have the right to walk outside without a chaperone, and you have to accept it." Or "it's not okay to assault people on the street just because they're wearing Jewish skullcaps."
Those same implied mores are embedded in French and Swedish identity too. They are NOT embedded in the mores of other nations, and it's stupid to stay in denial about it. And European nations have to be able to stand up for those aspects of their identity without also doing stupid things like banning the hijab or demanding that schoolchildren eat pork.
I'm in a bit of a funk from knowing just how many European borders I crossed that are no longer open. I was thrilled to walk past the Austrian customs house in Brenner Pass and see that it was turned into a rest stop for tourists. Now it's back to being a customs house. I also took the train over the Oresund Bridge, and that's no longer a thing you can casually do.
posted by ocschwar at 9:03 AM on February 11, 2016 [7 favorites]
Unskilled illiterate peasants? Loss.
Like the Mexicans! And the Japanese! And the Italians! And the Eastern-Europeans! And the Swedes/Norwegians/Finns! And the Irish! And the Germans! And the French-Canadians! And the English convicts!
We do more than fine with unskilled illiterate peasants crowding our shores.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:16 AM on February 11, 2016 [15 favorites]
Like the Mexicans! And the Japanese! And the Italians! And the Eastern-Europeans! And the Swedes/Norwegians/Finns! And the Irish! And the Germans! And the French-Canadians! And the English convicts!
We do more than fine with unskilled illiterate peasants crowding our shores.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:16 AM on February 11, 2016 [15 favorites]
Those same implied mores are embedded in French and Swedish identity too. They are NOT embedded in the mores of other nations
Who are you talking about here? The majority of refugees arriving in Sweden are Syrians fleeing IS, who are themselves a bunch of guys keen on attacking people for wearing skullcaps, and oppressing women.
posted by colie at 9:39 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Who are you talking about here? The majority of refugees arriving in Sweden are Syrians fleeing IS, who are themselves a bunch of guys keen on attacking people for wearing skullcaps, and oppressing women.
posted by colie at 9:39 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
If Sweden is like anywhere else in the world, billions upon billions of dollars in unpaid taxes and dirty money are hidden in havens by everyone from Apple Computer to Mr. A. Oligarch. Start there. Meanwhile, hand-wringing articles like this one contribute directly to the climate in which 100 masked neo-Nazis decide to attack destitute children in Sweden.
If I were the Swedish police, I would be bending every effort toward finding every last one of those guys as fast as possible and making sure they received the maximum punishment allowed by law. Make an example of them now, prevent trouble later.
Also, honestly, the US by rights should be taking many, many refugees. Because we don't, there's pressure on the social democracies - no doubt to the glee of our own elites. Not only do we shut out refugees but by shutting out refugees we actively work against social policy in better countries.
posted by Frowner at 9:39 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
If I were the Swedish police, I would be bending every effort toward finding every last one of those guys as fast as possible and making sure they received the maximum punishment allowed by law. Make an example of them now, prevent trouble later.
Also, honestly, the US by rights should be taking many, many refugees. Because we don't, there's pressure on the social democracies - no doubt to the glee of our own elites. Not only do we shut out refugees but by shutting out refugees we actively work against social policy in better countries.
posted by Frowner at 9:39 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
There are middle-class people among the Syrian refugees. They're not all illiterate peasants.
posted by Anne Neville at 9:46 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Anne Neville at 9:46 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
I also took the train over the Oresund Bridge, and that's no longer a thing you can casually do.
Yes it is, I do it every day as a non-European foreigner. It's a bit annoying having to show my ID but we were all legally required to carry that anyway. And even then it's only annoying because the train timetable is a bit screwed up so now I have to change two or three times instead of one, but I do travel quite a long way. If you're legally allowed to be here then you can cross the border as casually as you like.
posted by shelleycat at 9:51 AM on February 11, 2016
Yes it is, I do it every day as a non-European foreigner. It's a bit annoying having to show my ID but we were all legally required to carry that anyway. And even then it's only annoying because the train timetable is a bit screwed up so now I have to change two or three times instead of one, but I do travel quite a long way. If you're legally allowed to be here then you can cross the border as casually as you like.
posted by shelleycat at 9:51 AM on February 11, 2016
The "how can they afford this?" thing is a bit of a canard isn't it? Presumably these new arrivals will begin to participate in the economy which will grow to include them and more than pay back the investment. That is, unless they get marginalized.
Here's a Swedish migration researcher writing that refugees are a net loss, economically, because they spend so many years being unemployed that those who eventually get jobs don't make up for the cost of those initial years (according to official government statistics, only 50% of refugees have jobs after eight years in Sweden, and some never find employment).
Here's the Swedish government's latest official analysis of the Swedish economy and labor market. Some quotes, translated from Swedish:
A very important and positive result from the PIAAC (Programme for the International Assessment of Adult Competencies) survey is that there are no significant differences between people born outside Sweden or in Sweden as regards being in work, if the individual's skills level is taken into account. (...) These results from the PIAAC studies can be interpreted as it mainly being the difference in language and general abilities that explains why a higher proportion of those born within the country, compared to those born outside, are employed.
[Regarding numeracy, ] highly educated people from common immigration regions in the Middle East and Africa score lower than native-born people with a low level of education. (...) in many cases fairly extensive supplementary education will be required, even for non-natives with a high formal level of education, to ensure that they are well integrated on the Swedish labour market. On the other hand, with the right skill set, the chance to find work is equal to that of native Swedes.
So according to official Swedish statistics, an international OECD study, and a Swedish migration researcher, the new arrivals will not pay back the investment, and this is due to their low skill level, not because they're marginalized. If anyone has studies or statistics that say the opposite, then I'd be interested in hearing about them.
posted by martinrebas at 9:53 AM on February 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
Here's a Swedish migration researcher writing that refugees are a net loss, economically, because they spend so many years being unemployed that those who eventually get jobs don't make up for the cost of those initial years (according to official government statistics, only 50% of refugees have jobs after eight years in Sweden, and some never find employment).
Here's the Swedish government's latest official analysis of the Swedish economy and labor market. Some quotes, translated from Swedish:
A very important and positive result from the PIAAC (Programme for the International Assessment of Adult Competencies) survey is that there are no significant differences between people born outside Sweden or in Sweden as regards being in work, if the individual's skills level is taken into account. (...) These results from the PIAAC studies can be interpreted as it mainly being the difference in language and general abilities that explains why a higher proportion of those born within the country, compared to those born outside, are employed.
[Regarding numeracy, ] highly educated people from common immigration regions in the Middle East and Africa score lower than native-born people with a low level of education. (...) in many cases fairly extensive supplementary education will be required, even for non-natives with a high formal level of education, to ensure that they are well integrated on the Swedish labour market. On the other hand, with the right skill set, the chance to find work is equal to that of native Swedes.
So according to official Swedish statistics, an international OECD study, and a Swedish migration researcher, the new arrivals will not pay back the investment, and this is due to their low skill level, not because they're marginalized. If anyone has studies or statistics that say the opposite, then I'd be interested in hearing about them.
posted by martinrebas at 9:53 AM on February 11, 2016 [12 favorites]
The majority of refugees arriving in Sweden are Syrians fleeing IS, who are themselves a bunch of guys keen on attacking people for wearing skullcaps, and oppressing women.
They're fleeing ISIS for reasons that have nothing to do with the question of whether it's okay to beat up Jews. And since Swedish politicians have not been especially diligent about making a stance about that important debate, Jews have been leaving the city of Malmo. To reiterate, hatred and contempt for Jews is not a reason to shut the gates against Syrian refugees. But it is a reason to actually say something about it as they stream in. Preferably something like "don't do that."
posted by ocschwar at 9:53 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
They're fleeing ISIS for reasons that have nothing to do with the question of whether it's okay to beat up Jews. And since Swedish politicians have not been especially diligent about making a stance about that important debate, Jews have been leaving the city of Malmo. To reiterate, hatred and contempt for Jews is not a reason to shut the gates against Syrian refugees. But it is a reason to actually say something about it as they stream in. Preferably something like "don't do that."
posted by ocschwar at 9:53 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Also an investment costs money up front regardless of any possible return. That money has to come from somewhere. In the meantime all these people need food and shelter now
I don't think people outside Europe really quite get how many new people have descended all at once. It's just so many compared to the resident population, so so many. That's always going to cause problems no matter who they are. For example, the tax office is overwhelmed right now. I arrived as a legal immigrant in October and am still not in the system and paying tax correctly, something that normally takes less than two weeks to process. And that's just one small peice of the puzzle. So the idea of just generating income right now from the refugees to cover everything strikes me as overly simplistic at best.
posted by shelleycat at 10:03 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
I don't think people outside Europe really quite get how many new people have descended all at once. It's just so many compared to the resident population, so so many. That's always going to cause problems no matter who they are. For example, the tax office is overwhelmed right now. I arrived as a legal immigrant in October and am still not in the system and paying tax correctly, something that normally takes less than two weeks to process. And that's just one small peice of the puzzle. So the idea of just generating income right now from the refugees to cover everything strikes me as overly simplistic at best.
posted by shelleycat at 10:03 AM on February 11, 2016 [5 favorites]
The mechanism is not complicated: make it very easy for people to get jobs
Easier said than done. Sweden already has a 7.8% unemployment rate. That's higher than the US or Denmark, and nearly twice as high as Norway.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 10:06 AM on February 11, 2016
Easier said than done. Sweden already has a 7.8% unemployment rate. That's higher than the US or Denmark, and nearly twice as high as Norway.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 10:06 AM on February 11, 2016
To reiterate, hatred and contempt for Jews is not a reason to shut the gates against Syrian refugees.
Have there been any anti-semitic incidents connected with Syrian refugees in Malmo?
posted by colie at 10:06 AM on February 11, 2016
Have there been any anti-semitic incidents connected with Syrian refugees in Malmo?
posted by colie at 10:06 AM on February 11, 2016
Then too there is a non-stop battle between Sunni and Shia, a struggle that ought not be blamed on Bush.
My understanding is that Saddam Hussein had actually done a hell of alot in Iraq to make national identity more important than sectarianism and that the U.S. invasion of Iraq undid all of that. When Iran carried out a counter-invasion of Iraq during the Iran-Iraq war they expected Shi'ite Iraqi Arabs to flock to their cause but instead Iraqi Shi'ites defended their country. Not that Saddam Hussein was a wonderful guy or anything but the sheer number of things Bush fucked up and the depth to which he fucked them up is really staggering.
Note that he also handed the country over to Iran after he realized he'd made a shit omelette—Nouri al-Maliki being an Iraqi who spent most of the Iran-Iraq war in Iran—and consequently gave Iran a direct overland route for aid to their ally Bashar al-Assad in Syria, nearly a decade ago now.
Oh also:
It was never easy for non-Muslims in Muslim majority nationsIf you actually can't remember any cases of this I think it's because you don't know very much about the subject despite name-dropping the Sykes-Picot Agreement, but surely you at least can recall some cases where then non-Muslim colonial masters of Muslim countries had it pretty easy, to the point of living like royalty and exploiting the populace and extracting resources like royalty.
posted by XMLicious at 10:08 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'd be a bit careful as an outsider using terms like "homogeneous," "openness," and "diversity" and touting the economic benefits of migration, as those concepts are acquiring some rather nasty class-war connotations in a European context. And let's not forget that our much prized New World diversity and openness are based on the underlying fact of indigenous dispossession. Our ancestors didn't exactly give local indigenous populations much of a say in how "diverse" a society they wanted to live in.
I know we New World types can't help seeing through immigrant eyes, but we should at least be cognizant of the biases and assumptions that viewpoint brings with it.
posted by Sonny Jim at 10:23 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
I know we New World types can't help seeing through immigrant eyes, but we should at least be cognizant of the biases and assumptions that viewpoint brings with it.
posted by Sonny Jim at 10:23 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
There are considerable costs to admitting refugees and treating them as if they were citizens.
She worried that the costs of Sweden’s generosity were only beginning to come due, and no one cared to tally them. She had just learned that since the right to 450 days of parental leave per child enshrined in Swedish laws also applies to women who arrive in the country with children under seven, refugees could qualify for several years’ worth of paid leave — even without working, since unemployed women also receive maternal benefits. She was convinced that Sweden needed to end the practice of giving Swedish social payments to refugees, not only because it was unaffordable, but because Sweden had no interest in out-bidding its neighbors to woo refugees.
posted by Carol Anne at 10:51 AM on February 11, 2016
She worried that the costs of Sweden’s generosity were only beginning to come due, and no one cared to tally them. She had just learned that since the right to 450 days of parental leave per child enshrined in Swedish laws also applies to women who arrive in the country with children under seven, refugees could qualify for several years’ worth of paid leave — even without working, since unemployed women also receive maternal benefits. She was convinced that Sweden needed to end the practice of giving Swedish social payments to refugees, not only because it was unaffordable, but because Sweden had no interest in out-bidding its neighbors to woo refugees.
posted by Carol Anne at 10:51 AM on February 11, 2016
That "Swedish immigration researcher" is Joakim Ruist. Here's his executive summary in English.
Conclusionsposted by klanawa at 10:54 AM on February 11, 2016 [6 favorites]
Two major conclusions emerge from this analysis.European countries should not shirk their moral responsibility to provide safe haven for fear that refugees will break the bank. If other western European countries would have matched the Swedish per-capita intake of the past decade (not counting 2015), and Europe would have hosted an additional five million refugees today, the current crisis would have been far less serious. The lesson from my study is that this would have been far from economically impossible.
- The economic burden of a generous refugee policy is not particularly heavy.
- The best way to reduce the modest fiscal burden of refugees is to incorporate them as fast as possible into the labour market so they can start contributing to the public exchequer.
"....Unskilled illiterate peasants? Loss...."
By this reasoning we would put all our children down as a loss.
Unskilled illiterate immigrants in the past have sent their children to public schools, where they become newly inducted members of those who pay the higher percentage of their income in taxes, and, by virtue of their numbers, become the majority of paying consumers of our national products. Oh, and they (the middle and lower economic members of our society) also comprise the majority of souls who serve in our military, fire, and infrastructure. They are one of the wheels on the cart, so to speak. Take them away and we drop an axle into the dirt. Ignore them and we begin to rot.
Many of their children's children go to university and participate in the field of medicine, and other such activities that enrich us as a nation. On top of that they make us proud that we took the high ground instead of ducking our heads and nuking the field, so to speak.
I hope Sweden can reshuffle their priorities. I hope that most Swedes look upon this development with at least a sense of sadness, if not outright alarm. As for my own country, maybe we could give up a couple of F-35's to finance the humanitarian care necessary to help clean up a mess that we had a significant role in creating, and create a living space for those desperate people--by their actions they are declaring our enemies to be their enemies. It's easy enough for us, over here, to put our thumbs to our noses; consider what it might take to force a million or so Americans to flee their homes and seek refuge in a nation we don't understand even an little bit, except for the part where our bombs reduce their suburban areas to rubble. After the F-35's pay for decent food and housing, maybe we could take a new aircraft carrier off the drawing board, and put that money into our civic infrastructure, for schools, medical care, and other things that would aid not only our newly arriving citizens, but the rest of us.
We do not have to be the cause all the world's problems to be alive to its misery. We are fools to turn our faces away from our deeds--this is not just cowardly, it's a major strategic blunder. Maybe if we did the right thing, instead of the usual thing, we could hold our heads up, instead of having to look at the ground in shame when someone drags his lifeless child out of a bomb crater. Our enemies (ISIS, for one) commit atrocity after atrocity. It's foolish, as well as wrong, to act like them and then blame them for what we do.
posted by mule98J at 10:58 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
By this reasoning we would put all our children down as a loss.
Unskilled illiterate immigrants in the past have sent their children to public schools, where they become newly inducted members of those who pay the higher percentage of their income in taxes, and, by virtue of their numbers, become the majority of paying consumers of our national products. Oh, and they (the middle and lower economic members of our society) also comprise the majority of souls who serve in our military, fire, and infrastructure. They are one of the wheels on the cart, so to speak. Take them away and we drop an axle into the dirt. Ignore them and we begin to rot.
Many of their children's children go to university and participate in the field of medicine, and other such activities that enrich us as a nation. On top of that they make us proud that we took the high ground instead of ducking our heads and nuking the field, so to speak.
I hope Sweden can reshuffle their priorities. I hope that most Swedes look upon this development with at least a sense of sadness, if not outright alarm. As for my own country, maybe we could give up a couple of F-35's to finance the humanitarian care necessary to help clean up a mess that we had a significant role in creating, and create a living space for those desperate people--by their actions they are declaring our enemies to be their enemies. It's easy enough for us, over here, to put our thumbs to our noses; consider what it might take to force a million or so Americans to flee their homes and seek refuge in a nation we don't understand even an little bit, except for the part where our bombs reduce their suburban areas to rubble. After the F-35's pay for decent food and housing, maybe we could take a new aircraft carrier off the drawing board, and put that money into our civic infrastructure, for schools, medical care, and other things that would aid not only our newly arriving citizens, but the rest of us.
We do not have to be the cause all the world's problems to be alive to its misery. We are fools to turn our faces away from our deeds--this is not just cowardly, it's a major strategic blunder. Maybe if we did the right thing, instead of the usual thing, we could hold our heads up, instead of having to look at the ground in shame when someone drags his lifeless child out of a bomb crater. Our enemies (ISIS, for one) commit atrocity after atrocity. It's foolish, as well as wrong, to act like them and then blame them for what we do.
posted by mule98J at 10:58 AM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Muslim arseholes. We're bombing their country - what more can we do?
posted by colie at 11:09 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by colie at 11:09 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Iran and Iraq had a long standing deadly war, each in a sense neutralizing the other. With the Bush invasion of Iraq, I recall telling a political science friend that this meant Iran would soon rule the Middle East...I think I was right on that call. While Bush certainly gets the "credit" for much of the mess because of his needless invasion of Iraq, it was with the full support of just about every member of Congress.
As for colonial rulers of the area, XMLIcrous is right. However, when that comment also states that Muslim majority nations were fair and equitable to their non-Muslim citizens, he is not accurate. He asks for evidence. HERE IT IS
posted by Postroad at 11:10 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
As for colonial rulers of the area, XMLIcrous is right. However, when that comment also states that Muslim majority nations were fair and equitable to their non-Muslim citizens, he is not accurate. He asks for evidence. HERE IT IS
posted by Postroad at 11:10 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
The economic burden of a generous refugee policy is not particularly heavy.
1.35% of total GDP is, for most developed governments, a pretty big swing in one year. Even the 0.35% from 2007 to 2015 is substantial. In Canadian terms, that would put a $25b hole in the budget. That's hardly impossible, but it is in the range of the expected shortfall during a recession, for example.
posted by bonehead at 11:24 AM on February 11, 2016
1.35% of total GDP is, for most developed governments, a pretty big swing in one year. Even the 0.35% from 2007 to 2015 is substantial. In Canadian terms, that would put a $25b hole in the budget. That's hardly impossible, but it is in the range of the expected shortfall during a recession, for example.
posted by bonehead at 11:24 AM on February 11, 2016
To reiterate, hatred and contempt for Jews is not a reason to shut the gates against Syrian refugees.
Have there been any anti-semitic incidents connected with Syrian refugees in Malmo?
Probably not, given the violence in Malmo predates the Syrian civil war. But it produced a lovely dynamic where the Swedish left was happy to ignore the problem, or blame the Jews for it, while the Swedish right wing was happy to use it as anti-immigrant fodder, and nobody was taking responsibility for deterring it in the first place. An ounce of prevention in Malmo 10 years ago would have made a big difference in how Syrian refugees are received today. Now we need way more than a pound of cure.
posted by ocschwar at 11:27 AM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
1.35% of total GDP is, for most developed governments, a pretty big swing in one year. Even the 0.35% from 2007 to 2015 is substantial.
It's non-trivial, but should be seen as a dry-run for what's to come. Something like 100,000,000 Bengali and Egyptian delta-dwellers who are going to need new digs as the sea rises.
posted by ocschwar at 11:54 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's non-trivial, but should be seen as a dry-run for what's to come. Something like 100,000,000 Bengali and Egyptian delta-dwellers who are going to need new digs as the sea rises.
posted by ocschwar at 11:54 AM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Canadian terms, that would put a $25b hole in the budget.
It'd be nice to live in an economic model vacuum, eh?
posted by klanawa at 11:56 AM on February 11, 2016
It'd be nice to live in a
posted by klanawa at 11:56 AM on February 11, 2016
I think there's an underlying aspect to immigration in Europe that many Americans fail to grasp, and which is much more worrying than the mere costs. Immigrants to the United States have always been encouraged to become American. Being an American is, in a fundamental way, a state of mind. The concept of the melting pot, while a cliché, lies at the root of the American experience. No matter your country of origin, once you're here, you're American. Irish-American maybe, or Italian-American, or in my case, Dutch-American, but still American.
By contrast, there's no equivalent notion of European identity. Europeans still consider themselves first and foremost natives of their own country. Immigrants to Europe, starting in the late 50s, were considered "guest workers". They weren't encouraged to take on the nationalities of their host countries. Quite the opposite. In elementary school, when I grew up, kids of Turkish immigrants were even given Turkish language lessons. This was the idea of multiculturalism: celebrate your identity but don't think that you could ever become truly Dutch, or French, or German. Because for that, you'd have to have been native born, to native parents.
And this worked both ways. Many immigrants, and their children, never fully integrated, or even wanted to. Especially on the part of Muslim immigrants (mostly Turks and Moroccans) there was, and is, a strong desire to remain separate from the host culture. Of course, the ghettos and banlieues are the disastrous result of failed government policies, but you can't blame that solely on official ineptitude. There simply is no comparison to the American immigrant experience, not on the part of the individual European countries, and not on the part of the immigrants.
So Europeans are worried. Not because this crisis costs a lot of money, but because history has shown that without an overarching notion of what it means to be a European first and a citizen of one's own country second, these additional new immigrants (refugees) will end up segregated, in their own neighborhoods, with their own (underperforming) schools, not accepted by the natives (and vice versa) and massively unemployed. The tensions had already been ratcheting up long before the current crisis.
Europe is no melting pot. It's a cauldron filled with disparate ingredients that refuse to blend together. And it may be about to boil over.
posted by monospace at 12:05 PM on February 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
By contrast, there's no equivalent notion of European identity. Europeans still consider themselves first and foremost natives of their own country. Immigrants to Europe, starting in the late 50s, were considered "guest workers". They weren't encouraged to take on the nationalities of their host countries. Quite the opposite. In elementary school, when I grew up, kids of Turkish immigrants were even given Turkish language lessons. This was the idea of multiculturalism: celebrate your identity but don't think that you could ever become truly Dutch, or French, or German. Because for that, you'd have to have been native born, to native parents.
And this worked both ways. Many immigrants, and their children, never fully integrated, or even wanted to. Especially on the part of Muslim immigrants (mostly Turks and Moroccans) there was, and is, a strong desire to remain separate from the host culture. Of course, the ghettos and banlieues are the disastrous result of failed government policies, but you can't blame that solely on official ineptitude. There simply is no comparison to the American immigrant experience, not on the part of the individual European countries, and not on the part of the immigrants.
So Europeans are worried. Not because this crisis costs a lot of money, but because history has shown that without an overarching notion of what it means to be a European first and a citizen of one's own country second, these additional new immigrants (refugees) will end up segregated, in their own neighborhoods, with their own (underperforming) schools, not accepted by the natives (and vice versa) and massively unemployed. The tensions had already been ratcheting up long before the current crisis.
Europe is no melting pot. It's a cauldron filled with disparate ingredients that refuse to blend together. And it may be about to boil over.
posted by monospace at 12:05 PM on February 11, 2016 [9 favorites]
It'd be nice to live in a vacuum, eh?
What? No, I just don't think we should go into this expecting there to be negligible costs, easily absorbed by our systems. This is a scale that hasn't been seen since the 1940s---even the 1980s SE Asian crisis was smaller than this, and that's the major point of comparison for most people in Canada (that was 80k). 50k pretty much is an negligible cost on a national scale, a couple of billion or so. 750k? for free? really?
We should make decisions with our eyes open, not be blinded by propaganda on either side. It's neither negligible nor is the sky falling. If we need to take more, we can, but people need to know that it will have to be an effort. And in the case of Sweden, we should acknowledge the challenge they're facing and not trivialize it.
posted by bonehead at 12:05 PM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
What? No, I just don't think we should go into this expecting there to be negligible costs, easily absorbed by our systems. This is a scale that hasn't been seen since the 1940s---even the 1980s SE Asian crisis was smaller than this, and that's the major point of comparison for most people in Canada (that was 80k). 50k pretty much is an negligible cost on a national scale, a couple of billion or so. 750k? for free? really?
We should make decisions with our eyes open, not be blinded by propaganda on either side. It's neither negligible nor is the sky falling. If we need to take more, we can, but people need to know that it will have to be an effort. And in the case of Sweden, we should acknowledge the challenge they're facing and not trivialize it.
posted by bonehead at 12:05 PM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Monospace--Well said. Having lived in Europe on and off the the last 10 years I concur with your observations. One can point to ethnic/religious ghettos in the US but immigration to the States does appear to me to be significantly different the immigration/resettlement in Europe. it is fashionable on MeFi amplify the failures of the US without reciprocally identifying its strengths.
posted by rmhsinc at 1:31 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by rmhsinc at 1:31 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
There's no doubt that most of Europe is based at core on ethnic nationalism. I'd say that's a bug that needs correcting rather than a feature myself, but of course I'm an American so naturally that's how I'd think.
Either way, yes it does add a dimension to the immigration issue that simply doesn't exist in the USA.
Or, rather, doesn't exist quite so much any more. Note that for a very long time America did have a quasi-ethnic nationalism that was very much publicly embraced and endorsed by just about anyone with power, and continues to exist and be endorsed (though more though dogwhistles and coded language rather than directly) today.
For most of its history, the powers in America defined real Americans as white Anglo-Saxon protestants. Catholics and "swarthy" Europeans (Italians and Greeks for example) and Jews were explicitly excluded from the melting pot, denied status as true Americans, and as monospace said of Europe viewed as foreigners and encouraged (not very subtly) to live in enclaves and keep to themselves and away from good right thinking real Americans. Black Americans didn't even get excluded from the melting pot, the very concept of black Americans being real Americans was so laughable and bizarre that no one even felt the need to specify that they weren't (and still aren't).
The whole melting pot idea is fairly recent, and has never been nearly as successful either direction as many people would like to think.
posted by sotonohito at 1:42 PM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
Either way, yes it does add a dimension to the immigration issue that simply doesn't exist in the USA.
Or, rather, doesn't exist quite so much any more. Note that for a very long time America did have a quasi-ethnic nationalism that was very much publicly embraced and endorsed by just about anyone with power, and continues to exist and be endorsed (though more though dogwhistles and coded language rather than directly) today.
For most of its history, the powers in America defined real Americans as white Anglo-Saxon protestants. Catholics and "swarthy" Europeans (Italians and Greeks for example) and Jews were explicitly excluded from the melting pot, denied status as true Americans, and as monospace said of Europe viewed as foreigners and encouraged (not very subtly) to live in enclaves and keep to themselves and away from good right thinking real Americans. Black Americans didn't even get excluded from the melting pot, the very concept of black Americans being real Americans was so laughable and bizarre that no one even felt the need to specify that they weren't (and still aren't).
The whole melting pot idea is fairly recent, and has never been nearly as successful either direction as many people would like to think.
posted by sotonohito at 1:42 PM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
These people are hardly freeloaders looking for an easy road--although if they were, I'd argue they deserve an easy road after living through what they've lived through.
That may very well be true but it doesn't imply in any way that Sweden can afford to be the ones to give it to them!
posted by Justinian at 1:46 PM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
That may very well be true but it doesn't imply in any way that Sweden can afford to be the ones to give it to them!
posted by Justinian at 1:46 PM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
The majority of refugees arriving in Sweden are Syrians fleeing IS...
not to absolve IS (or US foreign policy) by any stretch, but by many accounts assad's regime has killed an order of magnitude more civilians than IS... i dunno, fwiw, i was listening to this on the radio the other day:
not to absolve IS (or US foreign policy) by any stretch, but by many accounts assad's regime has killed an order of magnitude more civilians than IS... i dunno, fwiw, i was listening to this on the radio the other day:
One thing I'm seeing in Syria today. When walking in the street, and you look at the civilians, you look at people who are walking, you don't see parents holding their children's hands. And I was asking myself the question, why don't I see that? I see this in Turkey, I see this in Egypt, I see this in other countries, in Europe, when I walk around. I see people, you know, they hold their children's hands. Why in Syria do I not I see that? And it's because, psychologically, these people know that at any moment they could lose their loved ones, and psychologically, they are automatically distancing themselves from their children, from their loved ones, because they know that at any moment they could lose their children. And this is a situation I see in Syria where emotion has been totally destroyed. These people are coping only because they've accepted the idea that there could be an end to their lives, to their loved ones' lives. That's something very disturbing now I've seen in Syria recently.also btw, why aren't there more refugees in france?
Last autumn its dormitories were briefly turned into an emergency welcome centre for 98 Syrian and Iraqi refugees. Today, however, the gardens outside the residential block are empty again, the wooden picnic benches deserted. The refugee families are already gone. Their speedy resettlement shows that France has plenty of capacity to absorb migrants. It also raises the question of why it is that while Germany is coping with a vast flood of Syrian refugees, France is attracting only a trickle...posted by kliuless at 1:49 PM on February 11, 2016
Overall asylum applications rose last year by 22%, but to just 79,000—nothing remotely close to the million-plus who registered in Germany. In 2015, 158,657 Syrians completed asylum applications in Germany, compared with only 3,553 in France. Last year the European Union agreed on a relocation programme to share 160,000 refugees from Italy and Greece. By mid-January France had taken in only 19; another 43 arrived this week. The explanation seems to be a mix of migrants’ relatively weak ties to France, and the limited opportunities in a country with 10% unemployment.
There simply is no comparison to the American immigrant experience
The USA is easily the most racially divided country on Earth.
posted by colie at 1:49 PM on February 11, 2016
The USA is easily the most racially divided country on Earth.
posted by colie at 1:49 PM on February 11, 2016
When the history is written of the EU, it will be divided into the antebellum period and post-war period, with the Syrian Civil War being the bellum.
posted by jetsetsc at 1:57 PM on February 11, 2016
posted by jetsetsc at 1:57 PM on February 11, 2016
Have there been any anti-semitic incidents connected with Syrian refugees in Malmo?
There have been many anti-Semitic incidents in Malmo. I don't think the perpetrators are generally identified, so there's no way to tell if the perpetrators are Syrian refugees. I presume most of them are naturalised Swedes, though.
The majority of refugees arriving in Sweden are Syrians fleeing IS, who are themselves a bunch of guys keen on attacking people for wearing skullcaps, and oppressing women.
They're not leaving Syria because they disagree with IS's anti-Semitism. Look, I understand that you're trying to stick up for refugees, but that doesn't mean you need to mock the very real concerns of a different marginalised group.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:10 PM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
There have been many anti-Semitic incidents in Malmo. I don't think the perpetrators are generally identified, so there's no way to tell if the perpetrators are Syrian refugees. I presume most of them are naturalised Swedes, though.
The majority of refugees arriving in Sweden are Syrians fleeing IS, who are themselves a bunch of guys keen on attacking people for wearing skullcaps, and oppressing women.
They're not leaving Syria because they disagree with IS's anti-Semitism. Look, I understand that you're trying to stick up for refugees, but that doesn't mean you need to mock the very real concerns of a different marginalised group.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:10 PM on February 11, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think some people are confusing established facts about economic impact of refugees with the morality of accepting refugees, or accepting rhetoric around that cost.
But study after study has shown that immigration is a net GAIN for BOTH the immigrant and the accepting country.
Everything I have read about this - and I've read a lot - refutes it. Certainly, this is not the case in Australia. Compared to a "native" citizen, refugees do exact a higher toll on the state. Here in Australia this number varies according to where they have come from and when they arrive, but in all cases they give the state less resource/revenue than a naturalised citizen - which is logical, really, they need more support in those first years particularly.
But this is absolutely not to say we shouldn't take in refugees, that we don't have a moral imperative to take them in, as many as we can. I firmly believe we do. But effective public policy formulations relies on a solid foundation of facts; we can't simply talk about what we want to be the case, or what we hope will happen - the other side does that it it propels a discourse of racism and hate.
posted by smoke at 3:42 PM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
But study after study has shown that immigration is a net GAIN for BOTH the immigrant and the accepting country.
Everything I have read about this - and I've read a lot - refutes it. Certainly, this is not the case in Australia. Compared to a "native" citizen, refugees do exact a higher toll on the state. Here in Australia this number varies according to where they have come from and when they arrive, but in all cases they give the state less resource/revenue than a naturalised citizen - which is logical, really, they need more support in those first years particularly.
But this is absolutely not to say we shouldn't take in refugees, that we don't have a moral imperative to take them in, as many as we can. I firmly believe we do. But effective public policy formulations relies on a solid foundation of facts; we can't simply talk about what we want to be the case, or what we hope will happen - the other side does that it it propels a discourse of racism and hate.
posted by smoke at 3:42 PM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
Part of it, I think, is that there is a big difference between immigrants as a whole and refugees in particular. Refugees are immigrants but not all immigrants are refugees.
posted by Justinian at 4:27 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 4:27 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
The "cost" of taking in refugees in Australia is well known - the Australian government announced it would resettle 12,000 Syrian refugees at a net cost of $100 mil a year ongoing - over $8,000 per refugee per year.
Australia is perhaps in a unique position in the world with the second largest intake of resettled refugees over a very long period of time, producing lots of delicious longitudinal data that would make any data scientist very happy.
The department of immigration and cultural affairs ran a 20 year longitudinal study on the contribution of humanitarian refugees vs skilled migrants. On the topic of economic contribution, they measured the total "costs" of the refugees - the moment they step foot in Australia, they are eligible for welfare payments (unemployment), childcare, essentially free accommodation and healthcare, and education - until they find gainful employment and start paying taxes to the government.
For skilled migrants the tax paid far outweighs the cost from year 1 - I've paid well over $100k in taxes by now - my marginal tax rate is effectively 40 to 50 percent - and used no welfare - because they're essentially selecting for highly skilled workers "ready to go" without further investment.
For humanitarian migrants / refugees - as a cohort they're a net drain on the economy for the first 12 years, only beginning to yield positive cash flow to the government at year 13. Taking net numbers to date and present value into account, the break even point is closer to year 20, so if it's treated as an investment, it's a poor one indeed - I'd advocate thinking about it as lives saved instead. Say $50k per life? Pretty good deal.
PDF link
posted by xdvesper at 4:48 PM on February 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
Australia is perhaps in a unique position in the world with the second largest intake of resettled refugees over a very long period of time, producing lots of delicious longitudinal data that would make any data scientist very happy.
The department of immigration and cultural affairs ran a 20 year longitudinal study on the contribution of humanitarian refugees vs skilled migrants. On the topic of economic contribution, they measured the total "costs" of the refugees - the moment they step foot in Australia, they are eligible for welfare payments (unemployment), childcare, essentially free accommodation and healthcare, and education - until they find gainful employment and start paying taxes to the government.
For skilled migrants the tax paid far outweighs the cost from year 1 - I've paid well over $100k in taxes by now - my marginal tax rate is effectively 40 to 50 percent - and used no welfare - because they're essentially selecting for highly skilled workers "ready to go" without further investment.
For humanitarian migrants / refugees - as a cohort they're a net drain on the economy for the first 12 years, only beginning to yield positive cash flow to the government at year 13. Taking net numbers to date and present value into account, the break even point is closer to year 20, so if it's treated as an investment, it's a poor one indeed - I'd advocate thinking about it as lives saved instead. Say $50k per life? Pretty good deal.
PDF link
posted by xdvesper at 4:48 PM on February 11, 2016 [8 favorites]
This is the beginning of what critics said - having refugees come to (more expensive) Europe is reducing the budget available to send aid to people that stayed put in refugee camps in Turkey and Lebanon, where each dollar spent could have been more cost-effective because the overall cost of living is lower. This is overall bad for the people in those camps. Fewer people can be helped monetarily if they come to Europe. I don't see what this particular part has to do with racism and nativism. Where will the money come from to feed and house these people in Sweden? I'm really curious what people think the answer to this question is.
The policy of resettlement in Europe means that fewer people are helped, but they are helped in a more generous way. It's more like a lottery than an even distribution of resources. In contrast, helping refugees in a camp in Turkey or Jordan is substantially cheaper, and a much broader spectrum of needy people get aid. I've seen numbers quoted as high as 100:1 for this ratio - for the price of one year of resettlement of a migrant in Sweden or Germany or Canada, you could assist 100 in a camp in a nation in closer proximity to Syria itself.
posted by theorique at 5:42 PM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
The policy of resettlement in Europe means that fewer people are helped, but they are helped in a more generous way. It's more like a lottery than an even distribution of resources. In contrast, helping refugees in a camp in Turkey or Jordan is substantially cheaper, and a much broader spectrum of needy people get aid. I've seen numbers quoted as high as 100:1 for this ratio - for the price of one year of resettlement of a migrant in Sweden or Germany or Canada, you could assist 100 in a camp in a nation in closer proximity to Syria itself.
posted by theorique at 5:42 PM on February 11, 2016 [3 favorites]
How do you fix a place where half the population is so steeped in evil that they feel justified and righteous in starting wars and then suggesting genocide as a means of resolving the refugee crisis those wars started?
Wait a minute ... who among the Republican party (or any group) has proposed genocide as a response to the migrant crisis in the Middle East and North Africa? Has anyone suggested this?
posted by theorique at 5:46 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
Wait a minute ... who among the Republican party (or any group) has proposed genocide as a response to the migrant crisis in the Middle East and North Africa? Has anyone suggested this?
posted by theorique at 5:46 PM on February 11, 2016 [1 favorite]
There simply is no comparison to the American immigrant experience
The USA is easily the most racially divided country on Earth.
Walk through Paris with your eyes open some time.
Start by the Gare de l'Est. A few blocks from there, you'll turn around a corner, and all of a sudden be on a block that's entirely Afro-French. If you're like me, a white American from an East Coast city, you won't notice at first. You walk past cliques of black people every day. But halfway through the block, you'll notice that the native French have vanished like ghosts. Then, even though you are not dressed like a tourist, you'll be recognized as one by the Afro-French crowds you're walking past, simply because you're white and walking down that block.
Days into your visit, you're going to be unconsciously drawn towards the Afro-French, because they don't wince at how you butcher the French language. To them, French is not just some kind of high esthetic. It's also a trading language, a language for getting things done. So it's less embarrassing to use your French with them. So you'll repeatedly find yourself surrounded by cliques of Afro-French and suddenly notice that again, the native French have vanished like a will-o-the-whisp.
And from repeatedly noticing the lack of hostility on part of the Afro-French, you'll be forced to conclude what I concluded, which is that entirely too many native French try to live as if the post-war immigrants are not even there. There might not be official discrimination. (Though there is certainly de facto). But there appears to be a willful blindness to the demographic reality. And an insistence on learning the same lessons earlier generations of Americans learned about how to make a multi-ethnic society work: the hard way. This will not end well.
Yes, I'm summarizing a week I spent in Paris.
posted by ocschwar at 5:50 PM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]
The true long-term solution is to achieve a peace in Syria and rebuild. Fortunately, we are getting closer to that: "U.S., Russia and other powers agree on ‘cessation of hostilities’ in Syria"
posted by Apocryphon at 6:19 PM on February 11, 2016
posted by Apocryphon at 6:19 PM on February 11, 2016
We're bombing their country - what more can we do?
We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas!
posted by asok at 2:14 AM on February 12, 2016
We've tried nothing and we're all out of ideas!
posted by asok at 2:14 AM on February 12, 2016
As a European, may I say how glad I am that Americans take the time out to come over here on holiday occasionally, so they can explain our countries to us. Otherwise we'd have no idea what they were like!
posted by Grangousier at 3:17 AM on February 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 3:17 AM on February 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
But study after study has shown that immigration is a net GAIN for BOTH the immigrant and the accepting country.
Smoke - Everything I have read about this - and I've read a lot - refutes it.
You are conflating immigration and accepting refugees. For example EU immigration is a net benefit for the UK, economically speaking.
posted by asok at 4:17 AM on February 12, 2016
Smoke - Everything I have read about this - and I've read a lot - refutes it.
You are conflating immigration and accepting refugees. For example EU immigration is a net benefit for the UK, economically speaking.
A study evaluating the fiscal impact of immigration from the A8 countries (those which joined the EU in 2004 and which did not already enjoy right of entry to the UK) found that in the four fiscal years after 2004 (i.e. 2005-2006, 2006-2007, 2007-2008 and 2008-2009), A8 migrants made a positive contribution to public finances (Dustmann et al. 2010). While A8 migrants work mostly in lower wage occupations, they have high labour force participation rates and employment rates, a fact which offsets the impact of their lower wagesOf course, economics doesn't tell us everything we need to know about the world.
posted by asok at 4:17 AM on February 12, 2016
Accepting refugees is also beneficial economically, according to the IMF.
This is all quite separate from any ethical or moral considerations.
posted by asok at 4:36 AM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is all quite separate from any ethical or moral considerations.
posted by asok at 4:36 AM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
grangiusier: I might say that sometimes a visitors observations are more acute than an insiders, you/we really should be glad for the American/Japanese/Chinese tourists and I have not noted any hesitancy on the part of some Europeans to make sweeping generalizations about America. I think the only opinion that really counts about Sweden and immigrants/refugees is the opinion of the Swedish people.
posted by rmhsinc at 4:45 AM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by rmhsinc at 4:45 AM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
For humanitarian migrants / refugees - as a cohort they're a net drain on the economy for the first 12 years, only beginning to yield positive cash flow to the government at year 13. Taking net numbers to date and present value into account, the break even point is closer to year 20, so if it's treated as an investment, it's a poor one indeed - I'd advocate thinking about it as lives saved instead. Say $50k per life? Pretty good deal.
If you are going to use net numbers then you need to include calculations for natural born citizens as well. Given that real labour force participation typically takes at least 25 years these days and citizens get massive subsidies/investments along the way in terms of child tax breaks, housing subsidies, healthcare, protection and such I'd be suprised if natural born citizens are a net economic gain before the age of 35 in most OECD countries. Maybe they never are!
posted by srboisvert at 5:34 AM on February 12, 2016
If you are going to use net numbers then you need to include calculations for natural born citizens as well. Given that real labour force participation typically takes at least 25 years these days and citizens get massive subsidies/investments along the way in terms of child tax breaks, housing subsidies, healthcare, protection and such I'd be suprised if natural born citizens are a net economic gain before the age of 35 in most OECD countries. Maybe they never are!
posted by srboisvert at 5:34 AM on February 12, 2016
Natural born citizens have an existing cohort of parents that already paid / are paying into the system at the current steady state equilibrium, so that point is moot. The point of the study is to accurately estimate the incremental costs of assimilating refugees so that their costs can be budgeted for
posted by xdvesper at 6:08 AM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by xdvesper at 6:08 AM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Immigrants and refugees from other countries have already paid into "the system". Colonialism made Europe and other western countries rich off of stealing resources and underpaying labour from around the world. We continue to actively benefit from overseas poverty: it's our companies that make huge profits, those profits are spent in Western economies -- and contribute to the income and wealth that citizens of those countries benefit from.
No one on this planet is not a part of the global economic system.
posted by jb at 9:45 AM on February 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
No one on this planet is not a part of the global economic system.
posted by jb at 9:45 AM on February 12, 2016 [6 favorites]
consciously construct a national identity based on openness, diversity and respect for difference
american (un)exceptionalism: "What, then, made America truly exceptional, from the start? It was a country founded not on race, ethnicity or religion but on ideas. And, crucially, those ideas were open to all. This openness to people, ideas, cultures and religions resulted in the creation of a new person — the American. The great historian Gordon Wood explains his view of American exceptionalism: 'In an important sense, we have never been a nation in any traditional meaning of the term... We Americans do not have a nationality the way other peoples do... which of course is why we can absorb immigrants more easily than they can.' " (via)
posted by kliuless at 3:45 PM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
american (un)exceptionalism: "What, then, made America truly exceptional, from the start? It was a country founded not on race, ethnicity or religion but on ideas. And, crucially, those ideas were open to all. This openness to people, ideas, cultures and religions resulted in the creation of a new person — the American. The great historian Gordon Wood explains his view of American exceptionalism: 'In an important sense, we have never been a nation in any traditional meaning of the term... We Americans do not have a nationality the way other peoples do... which of course is why we can absorb immigrants more easily than they can.' " (via)
posted by kliuless at 3:45 PM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
I do enjoy a thread on European problems swiftly turning into "Well, actually, this is America's fault, how can we blame Bush while also ignoring the main issue?", though it hardly solves the problem.
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 4:31 PM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Ghostride The Whip at 4:31 PM on February 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
What, then, made America truly exceptional, from the start? It was a country founded not on race, ethnicity or religion but on ideas. And, crucially, those ideas were open to all.
That may have been the words, but in the early days of the Republic, white, male property owners were the only voters. (Since then, the franchise has of course been expanded.)
posted by theorique at 5:32 PM on February 12, 2016
That may have been the words, but in the early days of the Republic, white, male property owners were the only voters. (Since then, the franchise has of course been expanded.)
posted by theorique at 5:32 PM on February 12, 2016
fwiw, i'm not sure anyone is ignoring the main issue -- if the front cover of the economist is any indication -- i think people (myself included) are wondering about issues of assimilation and national identity...
also btw, the economist's leader ends with: "There is an encouraging precedent, too. When more than 1m 'boat people' fled Vietnam after the communists took over in 1975, they went initially to refugee camps in Hong Kong and other parts of Asia before being sent to America, Europe, Australia and wherever else would take them. They arrived with nothing but adapted astonishingly fast: the median household income for Vietnamese-Americans, for example, is now above the national average. No one in America now frets that the boat people will not fit in."
hopefully when we talk of the syrian diaspora over the next several decades we'll be talking about flourishing individuals and communities in their adopted homes, but it's going to take foresight, planning and intentional inclusivity to "consciously construct a national identity based on openness, diversity and respect for difference."
The true long-term solution is to achieve a peace in Syria and rebuild. Fortunately, we are getting closer to that: "U.S., Russia and other powers agree on ‘cessation of hostilities’ in Syria"
A questionable agreement to stop the war in Syria - "A ray of hope amidst the darkness of the Syrian civil war, or a bit of political theatre that reflects Russian cynicism and American weakness?"
-Haven't met one person at @MunSecConf who thinks Syria "cessation of hostilities" is real.
-One reason you need Assad as party in that "cessation of hostilities"
-AFP: Syria's Assad vows to retake whole country, warns could 'take long time'
-Five Years of Syria War, Latest Casualties: over 10% of population 470,000 killed, 1.9m injured
-Syria Life Expectancy 70 in 2010, 55.4 today
-MunSecConf: Stability of Europe and Middle East depends on how Europe handles refugee crisis. #GuessWeAreScrewed
-Head of the Int’l Org for Migration: The world’s population has quadrupled in the last century. So expect more mass migration.
-1 in every 122 humans is either a refugee, internally displaced or seeking asylum. Equivalent to world's 24th biggest country.
posted by kliuless at 6:19 PM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
also btw, the economist's leader ends with: "There is an encouraging precedent, too. When more than 1m 'boat people' fled Vietnam after the communists took over in 1975, they went initially to refugee camps in Hong Kong and other parts of Asia before being sent to America, Europe, Australia and wherever else would take them. They arrived with nothing but adapted astonishingly fast: the median household income for Vietnamese-Americans, for example, is now above the national average. No one in America now frets that the boat people will not fit in."
hopefully when we talk of the syrian diaspora over the next several decades we'll be talking about flourishing individuals and communities in their adopted homes, but it's going to take foresight, planning and intentional inclusivity to "consciously construct a national identity based on openness, diversity and respect for difference."
The true long-term solution is to achieve a peace in Syria and rebuild. Fortunately, we are getting closer to that: "U.S., Russia and other powers agree on ‘cessation of hostilities’ in Syria"
A questionable agreement to stop the war in Syria - "A ray of hope amidst the darkness of the Syrian civil war, or a bit of political theatre that reflects Russian cynicism and American weakness?"
Earlier this week, Russia proposed a ceasefire that would start on March 1st. American officials saw this as providing Mr Assad and his backers three more bloody weeks in which to increase and consolidate territorial gains before any resumption of the talks. Some believe that their strategy is to create the basis of a rump state controlled by the regime, which would contain the majority of the Syrian population that has not fled, and to get a war-weary international community, through the UN-sponsored talks, to endorse it.ianbremmer at the munich security conference...
It is a reflection of the weakness of Mr Kerry’s negotiating position and the bankruptcy of Barack Obama’s timid Syria policy that America now appears ready to go along with any face-saving proposal made by Mr Lavrov on behalf of his boss in the Kremlin. Even Mr Kerry seemed to put little store by the deal, saying it was an agreement on paper only. If Russia continues its air strikes on rebel positions around Aleppo, which it could suspend immediately if it were so inclined, the deal will be effectively over before the big-wigs gathered in Munich depart in their limos on Sunday.
-Haven't met one person at @MunSecConf who thinks Syria "cessation of hostilities" is real.
-One reason you need Assad as party in that "cessation of hostilities"
-AFP: Syria's Assad vows to retake whole country, warns could 'take long time'
-Five Years of Syria War, Latest Casualties: over 10% of population 470,000 killed, 1.9m injured
-Syria Life Expectancy 70 in 2010, 55.4 today
-MunSecConf: Stability of Europe and Middle East depends on how Europe handles refugee crisis. #GuessWeAreScrewed
-Head of the Int’l Org for Migration: The world’s population has quadrupled in the last century. So expect more mass migration.
-1 in every 122 humans is either a refugee, internally displaced or seeking asylum. Equivalent to world's 24th biggest country.
posted by kliuless at 6:19 PM on February 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Ten percent of their population; good lord.
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:42 AM on February 13, 2016
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:42 AM on February 13, 2016
Natural born citizens have an existing cohort of parents that already paid
People who have less than the average number of children, or no children at all can adopt a refugee tax wise, so that point is moot.
I am not sure the link you posted backs up your assertions about the cost of accepting refugees either
People who have less than the average number of children, or no children at all can adopt a refugee tax wise, so that point is moot.
I am not sure the link you posted backs up your assertions about the cost of accepting refugees either
Clearly, more work is needed to provide a quantitative evidence base of refugees’ economic contributions, and to understand in what capacities refugees make the most significant contributions. Yet, as Carrington et al. (2007) point out, many of the costs and benefits of migration to Australia are unquantifiable.posted by asok at 2:58 AM on February 15, 2016
Anecdotal evidence should not be dismissed, especially if it is the only form of evidence available. Indeed, research from the field of behavioural decision-making suggests that, when an issue is highly sensitive or controversial, people tend to rely on emotion more than on rationality (Wilson and Arvai, 2006). Additionally, quantitative studies can provide a misleading impression of objectivity, disguising their often implicit assumptions. While quantifiable evidence might provide a basis for rational opinion-forming, therefore, developing broader notions of ‘contribution’ itself may help to counteract some of the negative emotional responses that pervade public debate.
MDA’s own research provides further ways of thinking about the meaning of ‘contribution’. When refugees themselves have been asked what they think constitutes ‘success’, they have cited outcomes beyond conventional, quantifiable measures. For example, The power of 10 (MDA, 2012b) documents
ten stories of migrants (mostly refugees)looking for work upon settlement in Australia. Contributors speak not only of conventional career success, but also of the perceived need to contribute in other ways, such as volunteering and serving the local community. This is supported by the finding that, whereas government defines successful settlement in terms of systemic outcomes such as social participation and economic well being, refugees think about successful settlement in terms of life outcomes such as personal happiness and community connectedness (ASRG, 2011).
-The Migration Machine: Millions of people, billions of dollars – and Europe's struggle to cope
-A brother's duty: The story of a New York delivery man who helped his younger brother reach Sweden, and of the financial networks that power migration.
-After a record 2015, migrants are coming to Europe three times faster this year
-September 2015 – present: 2 children (on average) have drowned every day crossing the Eastern Mediterranean
posted by kliuless at 9:41 AM on February 24, 2016
-A brother's duty: The story of a New York delivery man who helped his younger brother reach Sweden, and of the financial networks that power migration.
-After a record 2015, migrants are coming to Europe three times faster this year
-September 2015 – present: 2 children (on average) have drowned every day crossing the Eastern Mediterranean
posted by kliuless at 9:41 AM on February 24, 2016
-Liberal, Harsh Denmark
-Denmark told to open its borders 'as soon as possible' by Brussels
posted by kliuless at 9:56 AM on February 24, 2016
-Denmark told to open its borders 'as soon as possible' by Brussels
posted by kliuless at 9:56 AM on February 24, 2016
EU-Turkey summit: high-stakes and unpleasant choices - "The Turks are already playing host to over 2m Syrian refugees – and many more could be on their way, if and when the fighting in Syria resumes in earnest. And yet the EU wants Turkey to close the safety valve that allows many Syrians to cross the sea to Greece and the EU. As one German official admitted to me in Berlin recently: 'We're asking Turkey to keep its border with Syria open to refugees, but to close its border to Greece and to accept non-Syrian migrants that we turn back from the EU. I'm not sure I would agree to that, if I were them.' " (via)
posted by kliuless at 4:26 PM on March 7, 2016
posted by kliuless at 4:26 PM on March 7, 2016
Turkey cheers migrant deal that promises visa-free EU travel - "Turkey and Germany have agreed to turn back all Syrians and economic migrants reaching Greek islands in exchange for sweeteners for Ankara, including an extra €3bn in funding and access to European visas."
EU leaders recoil from Turkey's demands - "The promise prompted outrage from rightwing European politicians who insisted the EU had capitulated to Ankara and opened a new highway for Muslim migrants to Europe."
posted by kliuless at 7:11 PM on March 9, 2016
EU leaders recoil from Turkey's demands - "The promise prompted outrage from rightwing European politicians who insisted the EU had capitulated to Ankara and opened a new highway for Muslim migrants to Europe."
posted by kliuless at 7:11 PM on March 9, 2016
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posted by mikewebkist at 6:35 AM on February 11, 2016 [4 favorites]