NY Penn Station - could its best days be ahead of it?
February 29, 2016 5:33 PM   Subscribe

Inside America's worst train station: What makes New York's Penn Station suck so bad? Today, Penn Station is more like a polished turd, except it’s not really polished... I called up James Ramsey, founder of Raad Studio, former NASA engineer, co-creator of the Lowline project, and all-around keen architectural eye, and asked him to give us an expert's look at why exactly this place sucks so much — to play Virgil to our Dante as we descend into the hellish circles of New York's Pennsylvania Station.

There are three circles, or levels, to Penn Station, each corresponding to a different railroad. Each section is distinct with its own signage, its own lighting, its own color scheme, and its own idiosyncrasies for frustrating riders. That was one of Ramsey's takeaways after our slog through the transit hub: the lack of a unifying theme. "Three fiefdoms," Ramsey said, "being smashed by a giant commercial interest."
...
But forget all that, because Penn Station is getting a makeover. In January, New York Governor Andrew Cuomo unveiled his grand plan for the nation’s busiest-but-dingiest train station (600,000 passengers a day, 200 million a year). Calling it the “biggest construction project in our state’s history,”... The hopelessly tarnished name “Penn Station” would fade from memory. This would be the “Empire Station Complex.”


There are some great pictures with the article.
posted by Salamandrous (100 comments total) 21 users marked this as a favorite
 
Personally, Penn Station has really grown on me and I kind of love it. And what if will be renewing it just as it has transcended from ugliness into gritty but charming antiquated authenticity?? But I'm trying to keep an open mind.
posted by Salamandrous at 5:34 PM on February 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


Penn Station is more like a polished turd, except it’s not really polished. It’s been called “the worst place in New York City,” “the worst transit experience in the US,” and “the worst place on Earth”

Apparently this author has never been up the street to Port Authority. Penn Station is awful, though, having spent many hours commuting to and from there in my childhood and in college.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:35 PM on February 29, 2016 [21 favorites]


Lead us not into Penn Station...
posted by Anne Neville at 5:37 PM on February 29, 2016 [76 favorites]


Apparently this author has never been up the street to Port Authority. Penn Station is awful, though, having spent many hours commuting to and from there in my childhood and in college.

That's an excellent point. I wonder whether Port Authority may be ugly/uglier with a more unified aesthetic?
posted by Salamandrous at 5:39 PM on February 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


And what if will be renewing it just as it has transcended from ugliness into gritty but charming antiquated authenticity??

New York is full of gritty but charming antiquated authenticity. Many subway stations qualify for instance. Penn Station is a shithole.

It would, however, be better if Amtrak learned the difference between planes and trains.
posted by zachlipton at 5:41 PM on February 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Oh good, Andrew Cuomo has a plan. I'm sure it won't be an unstoppable shitshow! I will admit slight befuddlement as to how it's going to connect to the notional LGA Air Train, but I'm certain it will all make sense and come in on budget in the end.
posted by phooky at 5:41 PM on February 29, 2016 [7 favorites]


While most of Manhattan has turned into a fern bar Penn Station is still an ashtray doused in urine. Gentrify that place already!
posted by Liquidwolf at 5:43 PM on February 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


Penn Station is the only place I was actually afraid I might get crushed to death, all because some idiots decided to stop at the bottom of a crowded escalator and caused a huge inescapable pileup behind them. It's also where I found myself running down an escalator the wrong way because there was no conceivable way to back up, and whoever had the key to switch the directions was similarly blocked out. It is not a happy or well-designed place, and I sincerely hope whatever replaces it will be better.
posted by Diagonalize at 5:47 PM on February 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Any discussion of how awful Penn station currently is needs to be contextualized by Grand Central - not just that Grand Central has been allowed to keep its grandeur, but that it was a HARD FIGHT by lots of people, including Jackie O, against the kind of money-grubbing developers that razed the original Penn station. IMO, any discussion of why Penn station is so miserable begins there.

And just to keep it relevant to the election, Grand Central's fate rested on a Supreme Court Decision, which upheld the decision of NYC's Landmarks Preservation Commission preventing Penn Central Transportation from demolishing the main waiting room to erect a tower on top of the station.
posted by ianhattwick at 5:52 PM on February 29, 2016 [33 favorites]


Whatever happened to the plan to turn the Farley Post Office across the street into a new Penn Station?
posted by KingEdRa at 5:53 PM on February 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


I just "enjoyed" Penn station earlier today, and I found myself troubled by how hard it is to navigate vs every other transit hub of any kind I've ever seen. The homeless guy taking a half-eaten pizza slice out of a garbage can and eating it was also a bit heart-breaking.
posted by JMOZ at 5:57 PM on February 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


After the original Penn Station was demolished in 1963, the great architecture professor Vincent Scully said of the new station, "One entered the city like a god. One scuttles in now like a rat."
posted by fremen at 5:58 PM on February 29, 2016 [17 favorites]


Also, of all those "you haven't been in New York until you've..." lists, #1 has got to be standing at the bottom of those subway stairs or on the subway stairs, waiting to see if the local or express is going to come so you can get on the right one.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:59 PM on February 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


Also, of all those "you haven't been in New York until you've..." lists, #1 has got to be standing at the bottom of those subway stairs or on the subway stairs, waiting to see if the local or express is going to come so you can get on the right one.

Now they have countdown clocks for the numbered trains at the base of the stairs! It's great. (That experience is preserved at other stations though, like at Columbus Circle though trying to hedge my bets between the downtown 1 and the A/C B/D).
posted by Salamandrous at 6:01 PM on February 29, 2016


Oh, yeah, I forgot about those (we have them on the UWS as well, but I don't stop at Penn anymore.) Well, there's something I can lord over new people.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:05 PM on February 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm in Grand Central everyday. I was in Penn Station a few months ago for the first time in about twenty years. The difference is amazing and depressing. GCT is glorious and beautiful cathedral. Penn Station is a dank, dark, depressing basement.

Even the trains are so much more disorganized. In GCT the trains usually are waiting on the track half an hour before they leave so that people can get on early and relax. In Penn the trains get there right before they are due, and everyone runs to get a good seat. Every train is like the last helicopter out of Saigon.

I was surprised how little had changed since my last visit. I pray I never have to go back.
posted by freakazoid at 6:07 PM on February 29, 2016 [15 favorites]


My first visit to NYC over thirty years ago began in Penn Station. It was not an auspicious welcome.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:14 PM on February 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


"One entered the city like a god. One scuttles in now like a rat."

That reminds me of the clusteruck you find at customs when you enter JFK. 'Welcome to New York, we don't give a fuck."
posted by Liquidwolf at 6:15 PM on February 29, 2016 [13 favorites]


Saturday afternoon, I found a pigeon in the Amtrak waiting room. A bird, pecking around, in a large room, inside another large room, underground.
posted by timdiggerm at 6:16 PM on February 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


Personally, Penn Station has really grown on me and I kind of love it. And what if will be renewing it just as it has transcended from ugliness into gritty but charming antiquated authenticity?? But I'm trying to keep an open mind.

I think it's more that compared to Grand Central and the old Penn station the current Penn is a steaming pile of shit.
posted by Talez at 6:17 PM on February 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


"that it was a HARD FIGHT by lots of people, including Jackie O, against the kind of money-grubbing developers that razed the original Penn station. "
"After the original Penn Station was demolished in 1963"


There's a gorgeously-illustrated children's book about the construction and destruction of Old Penn Station and the importance of historic preservation, so you can start your children young.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:17 PM on February 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


I remember going through Penn Station when I was a little kid and it was less than ten years old but it was already a smelly dump.
posted by octothorpe at 6:18 PM on February 29, 2016


Saturday afternoon, I found a pigeon in the Amtrak waiting room. A bird, pecking around, in a large room, inside another large room, underground.

New York is the capitol of hustle, baby! That pigeon already got promoted once since then
posted by clockzero at 6:18 PM on February 29, 2016 [15 favorites]


Salamandrous: has really grown on me and I kind of love it. And what if will be renewing it just as it has transcended from ugliness into gritty but charming antiquated authenticity?? But I'm trying to keep an open mind.

This couldn't be a better example of Stockholm syndrome than if you started speaking Swedish.
posted by dr_dank at 6:20 PM on February 29, 2016 [26 favorites]


Seasoned commuters shove their way passed tourists, while heavily armed National Guardsmen crack wise with equally heavily armed NYPD officers.

Moreso than the (excellent) photos, that typo is a good way to viscerally capture the pain -- a bearable pain, more of a 'oh geez, really?' variety -- that navigating Penn Station brought out in me.
posted by Theophrastus Johnson at 6:25 PM on February 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ramsey is shocked to find himself standing under a piece by famed sculptor Maya Lin, who is best known for designing the Vietnam War Memorial in Washington, DC. "I had no idea this was here," he said.

I commuted out of Penn Station on NJT every workday for a year and never noticed this!
posted by en forme de poire at 6:32 PM on February 29, 2016


I used to use Penn for commuting too, from Long Island.

In Penn the trains get there right before they are due, and everyone runs to get a good seat. Every train is like the last helicopter out of Saigon.

This is sooooo true. First everyone congregates around the board that says where the train is going to be, then they're off like race horses.

Also as I remember it's a long and challenging walk to get to the subway to get the subway to across town.

The lack of stylistic consistency is the very very least of Penn Station's issues. In fact it actually comes in handy because if it changes suddenly you know you're in the wrong place.
posted by bleep at 6:36 PM on February 29, 2016 [10 favorites]


With the National Guard and their sandbagged machine-gun nests down there this could very easily be rethemed into a fun Metro 2033 experience.
posted by turbid dahlia at 6:44 PM on February 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


It would, however, be better if Amtrak learned the difference between planes and trains

That article says that "New Jersey Transit, which uses the exact same platforms in Penn Station as Amtrak does, lets passengers wait on the platform"

Every time I use the NJCL to Long Branch I have to wait on the concourse until the train arrives, then head down and board. I have definitely never waited on the platform.

Penn Station makes me think that they built a skyscraper, and then as an afterthought, for some reason decided to put a major station in the basement rooms. I still prefer it to the Port Authority, although that isn't saying much.
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 6:48 PM on February 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Unlike the authors, I actually don't mind the Amtrak level: weird casino lighting aside, at least it's pretty spacious and has high ceilings, and I've never been afraid of being crushed under a stampede there. The LIRR level is the most oppressive from an architectural standpoint, I think (those fucking cigarette-box ceilings are just the worst), and the NJT main concourse is the worst from a purely organizational standpoint, with tons of chokepoints, severely inadequate organization of gates, and just plain not enough capacity. (I'm surprised I've never had a nightmare about those escalators.)

I also think the article doesn't stress enough that there's not actually a clean separation between the three agencies across floors: if you want to have a hope of getting a seat on the NJT train to Trenton it's often a good idea to board from the level with the LIRR concourse, for instance (wide stairs instead of a narrow elevator!). But good luck finding the right entrance point for your gate from the top level in time.
posted by en forme de poire at 6:49 PM on February 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


I have definitely never waited on the platform.

You can though.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:49 PM on February 29, 2016


Why can't they just add more lights? Like 50% of the problem is that it feels like you're in a cave.
posted by miyabo at 6:50 PM on February 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


Aw, I'm fond of Penn Station. My dad lived in Manhattan when I was a kid, and I used to take the train up to visit him. It was always the same routine: my mom would give me a ride to Union Station in DC, and I'd board the train myself (and because I was so young, I got to go early).

I still remember every stop of the ride there, both the express and the local. I'd always go to the dining car to buy a packet of peanut butter cups, and then I'd sit and look out the window. I got to know how far along we were just by the scenery outside. Technically I've been to Philadelphia a million times, but I never got off the train.

Anyway, as I remember it, the train would pull in underground, so you never really got a sense of being in the city until you stepped outside; by then I'd have met my dad in the main area, and we'd get on the Subway together to go back to his place. I loved the city, and it was always such an exciting experience for me, and Penn Station was always the peak of it.

Sorry that's long and rambly. I guess it's because I never went through Penn Station as an adult that I never thought of it as crappy.
posted by teponaztli at 6:52 PM on February 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


You can though.

But only if you know which platform to wait on, right? They only announce that ten minutes ahead of schedule, and at least in my experience they change them around pretty frequently. Maybe some of the routes are more consistent?
posted by en forme de poire at 6:55 PM on February 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


My first visit to NYC over thirty years ago began in Penn Station. It was not an auspicious welcome.

Mine was the same, except the Port Authority bus station. You know the scene from Airplane! where the pilot has to fight off people asking for donations to various causes?

It was like that except with guys with stolen cell phones offering to let you make long distance calls for cheap.
posted by zippy at 6:57 PM on February 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


To do that, I called up James Ramsey, founder of Raad Studio, former NASA engineer, co-creator of the Lowline project, and all-around keen architectural eye

Okay, He's not an architect...I get it. So, he'll be addressing the problems as we go.

That was one of Ramsey's takeaways after our slog through the transit hub: the lack of a unifying theme. "Three fiefdoms," Ramsey said, "being smashed by a giant commercial interest."

Exactly explain "fiefdoms"...come on...it's Penn station.

"There’s no visual hierarchy," he said. "Lighting-wise or signage-wise."

Agreed, but damn you are missing the major problems...lighting is important, but what about the overall passenger flow. Egress plans matter.

"It’s like some intern did the measurements wrong," Ramsey said. "That’s a hashtag fail. You don’t do that."


You do...when there is no light available...So, you have identified a problem. So, what's the solution? LED's? Finishes? Better finishes and wayfinding.

We feel worn down, a little grimy, and thoroughly depressed about the state of things.

Interview a better architect.
posted by Benway at 6:59 PM on February 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


But only if you know which platform to wait on, right?

Sadly. Yet another reason Penn sucks.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:00 PM on February 29, 2016


Personally, Penn Station has really grown on me and I kind of love it.

I'm with you. I have spent a lot of time at Penn Station, and it is far from the bottom of my list of decent public transport facilities. You have a few choices for snacks to grab, a good-sized couple of Hudson Newses to find browsing material, large cans of Foster's and many pashminas and stockings to browse. The people-watching is good and the pace is fast.

I mean, I certainly stand with those who think the old station should never have been demolished, but if we can't have a 20th century grand arcade-type station, Penn is doing OK. Those who think it's the "worst in America" or something have clearly never been to the execrable purgatory that is Boston's North Station. And I do agree that the much-ballyhood, pink NJT concourse which was supposed to be the bee's knees and for which we endured what seemed like decades of partitions and long reroutes is pretty bad. Narrow, confusing, very overcrowded at rush times.

The lack of stylistic consistency is the very very least of Penn Station's issues. In fact it actually comes in handy because if it changes suddenly you know you're in the wrong place.

I totally agree. Growing up in NJ, I would occasionally get turned around at Penn. Once I found myself in the LIRR section, an area I had previously been utterly unaware of. I went home and told my mom "did you know there's another entire train station under Penn station?"

I have definitely never waited on the platform.

This is true and is a great advanced Penn hack. For instance, when I get the Amtrak Northeast Regional, it almost always leaves from Track 12. So you can just take yourself down the NJT stairs and wait downstairs, and enter track 12 from there as soon as it's announced.
posted by Miko at 7:02 PM on February 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


But only if you know which platform to wait on, right?

There are screen monitors in the hall nearby the platforms which update with the Big Board. You can watch those.
posted by Miko at 7:04 PM on February 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


I totally agree. Growing up in NJ, I would occasionally get turned around at Penn. Once I found myself in the LIRR section, an area I had previously been utterly unaware of. I went home and told my mom "did you know there's another entire train station under Penn station?"

This is so funny because coming from the LIRR side, I would suddenly find myself in the NJ section and feel like I had been transported into some kind of bizarre New Jersey netherworld where it was still the 70s.
posted by bleep at 7:05 PM on February 29, 2016 [6 favorites]


99% Invisible, one of the best podcasts out there if you like to dive into interesting trivia-type stuff, had a great episode last year on this very subject (iTunes link). They get into the history of (the original) Penn Station, the doomed fight to preserve it, and the awfulness of the current station. It's a great segment, and just a wonderful podcast overall.
posted by shiu mai baby at 7:06 PM on February 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


There are screen monitors in the hall nearby the platforms which update with the Big Board. You can watch those.

But don't those only update after the train actually pulls in? (I guess I'm talking specifically about NJT and not Amtrak, maybe that's the operational difference.)
posted by en forme de poire at 7:07 PM on February 29, 2016


or an actual architect who can transform these things...
posted by Benway at 7:07 PM on February 29, 2016


This is so funny because coming from the LIRR side, I would suddenly find myself in the NJ section and feel like I had been transported into some kind of bizarre New Jersey netherworld where it was still the 70s.

I do remember the first time we took took NJ Transit to see family in NJ it felt like the opposite of everything I was comfortable with. "You can flip the seats back and forth, and neither direction is very comfortable!"
posted by teponaztli at 7:08 PM on February 29, 2016


But don't those only update after the train actually pulls in? (I guess I'm talking specifically about NJT and not Amtrak, maybe that's the operational difference.)

Yes but that is often before they make the formal announcement upstairs and you are already one level of everyone who is reading it on the Big Board.
posted by Miko at 7:11 PM on February 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Huh, my only time in NYC I went on my own for a week, backpack on my back, and I came into and left from Penn Station. The one next door to Madison Square Garden, right? Didn't seem too bad to me, and I was reading this thread thinking maybe everyone was talking about some other place. But then

Every train is like the last helicopter out of Saigon.

Ok, yeah, same place.
posted by ctmf at 7:11 PM on February 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Penn is a chimera, in a way that's unusual even for NYC. The LIRR, subway, and Amtrak services all have different architectural aesthetics, different colors, different qualities of time even. Subway is just waiting, LIRR is anxious waiting, Amtrak is waiting for the 19th century to pull up
posted by clockzero at 7:11 PM on February 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


They could make significant improvements in thr Amtrak area just by updating/adjusting the seating, signage, lighting and paint.
posted by humanfont at 7:11 PM on February 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


Mine was the same, except the Port Authority bus station.

greyhound to port authority, 1990. never was there a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. would you like me to help steal your bag? do you like getting rides from helpful strangers? commercial opportunities! do you need to make some quick cash? the bathrooms, the hands under the stalls.... it was amazing, but by '94 it was no more.
posted by ennui.bz at 7:11 PM on February 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


But don't those only update after the train actually pulls in? (I guess I'm talking specifically about NJT and not Amtrak, maybe that's the operational difference.)

That's how I remember it, as a frequent NJT rider, but that's the same as the big board, and there's plenty of time to get on board, 10 minutes or so? I'm not sure I get what I would gain from knowing a half-hour in advance which track my train was going to be on: would I just ... stand there underground on the platform for 20 minutes instead of standing in the main station where I can look at magazines?
posted by escabeche at 7:14 PM on February 29, 2016


greyhound to port authority, 1990. never was there a more wretched huge of scum and villainy.

Chris Rock already covered this one (also as discussed by John Oliver):
Rochelle:
OK, I want y'all to be real careful in here. This place is full of pickpockets, pimps, and... and, and murderers and child molesters and thieves.

Narrator:
That's the Port Authority slogan.
posted by zachlipton at 7:15 PM on February 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


You haven't lived until you have dined at Tracks.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:18 PM on February 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


I will say that just speaking organizationally, Port Authority is even worse than Penn Station. Like, there's a 300 and 400 level, and they didn't even use to be on the official map —that bad.

Yes but that is often before they make the formal announcement upstairs and you are already one level of everyone who is reading it on the Big Board.

Ah, yeah, I guess I was already doing that. Darn. (escabeche, I guess what I'd use that for would be to get ahead of the swarm through the NJT concourse and down those damn escalators. Though realistically, tbh, I'm not usually that far ahead of schedule in the first place.)
posted by en forme de poire at 7:20 PM on February 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


What I don't like about that article is

a) the emphasis on the confusingness of Penn Station; this I don't really get at all. Sure I get that it's kind of an underground warren, and that it's crowded, but I would never call it hard to figure out.

b) Stuff like "Vendors hawk cheap beer and pizza from garishly lit retail hovels that line the corridor" and the complaints about the lack of "culture and refinement." I mean, yeah, I like Grand Central too, but that's related to the fact that I like suburban malls, which Grand Central kind of is. I also like New York City, which, among other things, has lots of garishly lit places that sell pizza. It's a thing.

I was going to say "And what other train station has a bookstore as great as Penn Books?" but it turns out Penn Books closed last year. So yes, Penn Station now sucks more than it did before 2015. (And yes, I know there was a Posman's in Grand Central. I preferred Penn Books. Now both are gone.)
posted by escabeche at 7:34 PM on February 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Port Authority is even worse than Penn Station. Like, there's a 300 and 400 level

My favorite is how the late night buses leave from a totally different floor with weird paper signs telling you which bus is supposed to show up where, and it's all magnificently confusing and if you're not already in the know, you will probably miss your ride back to the familiarity and comfort of New Jersey. And the weird paper signs were an innovation some years back -- when I first rode those buses, the doors weren't labeled with anything but a number. They may have put up more official-looking signs recently.

The worst problems with Penn Station aren't its lack of style or architectural character, and they're not fixable with paint or lights. The reason you can't board trains in a leisurely fashion while they hang out on the tracks (and the reason that trains aren't always on the same track) is that they don't have enough space for trains to wait. You want track number consistency and plenty of time to board, go to Newark Penn Station. They even have a pretty nice waiting room, but it's closed during the hours you're most likely to need to wait.
posted by asperity at 7:36 PM on February 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


I'm not sure I get what I would gain from knowing a half-hour in advance which track my train was going to be on

I don't bother doing this for NJT rides. For some reason I don't really care about seating on NJT. But I take the Amtrak to Boston a lot, and for that, I do care, because a giant scrum of people gets on at Penn. So I try to get the jump because it means the difference between getting a seat in the quiet car or not, and maybe between not having a seatmate and having one, for three+ hours.

They even have a pretty nice waiting room

True, it's beautiful.
posted by Miko at 7:50 PM on February 29, 2016 [3 favorites]


My first job after moving to NYC was in Great Neck, out on the north shore of Long Island, necessitating a reverse commute on the Port Washington line of the LIRR. Hence my introduction to the joys of Penn Station. My job lasted only a few months, and by the end, I had gotten to know who was driving so I could carpool. LIE traffic over Penn Station most any day.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 7:58 PM on February 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


Here seems like an appropriate place to drop a link to a copy of the infamous Dealbreaker post on the Taco Bell at Penn Station. It's Dealbreaker-style humor (basically entails impersonating a Wall Street d-bag, with sliiiiightly too much accuracy for comfort), so be warned.

There was also a genuinely horrifying piece a couple years back in the NYT (?) about the fast-food restaurants there (spoiler alert: not vermin-free), but I can't seem to find it.
posted by praemunire at 8:10 PM on February 29, 2016 [1 favorite]


For me the worst part of Penn Station was missing the 2:40whatever a.m. back to Blandville USA after a night out in the city and having to wait till 4:30whatever a.m. for the next train home. Not an attractive place to spend the wee hours.
posted by Lyme Drop at 8:15 PM on February 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


Not an attractive place to spend the wee hours.

Which, this being Penn Station, are called this for a different reason from the one you hoped.
posted by 1adam12 at 8:30 PM on February 29, 2016 [20 favorites]


I read a presentation for the proposed big overhaul of the city's transportation network and I don;t think ever seen an official government presentation use such harsh language, all about Penn Station.

"revolting embarrassing eyesore" was one of the milder phrases.
posted by The Whelk at 8:36 PM on February 29, 2016 [5 favorites]


There's this walk you do in caves sometimes, where you're hunched forward a bit at the waist, head bowed, underneath a flat shelf of rock, not quite low enough to need to crawl but super aware that there's a whole lot of something just over your helmet. The first time I was in Penn Station, I passed a man who was in that posture. He seemed like the tallest man I'd ever seen (like well over 7 feet), but I don't really know. Penn Station is totally linked with caving in my mind now.

They should embrace it and turn it into a caving experience park. Men in suits and harnesses rapelling down slick rocks. Kids crawling in mud and playing with fire on their helmets. Lights of trains glimpsed through gaps in the stalactites.
posted by joeyh at 8:36 PM on February 29, 2016 [2 favorites]


And yes, compared to Port Authority, Penn Station is just frustrating and badly laid out and dingy and confusing. Port Authority feels like you're being punished for your sins.
posted by The Whelk at 8:43 PM on February 29, 2016 [8 favorites]


@grumpybear69, I was hoping somebody would mention Tracks. Though I have never eaten there, I have drank there. Such a weird bar that doesn't look all that bad at first glance but is really a pit of despair.
posted by old_growler at 9:21 PM on February 29, 2016 [4 favorites]


I just thought of something else I hate/love about Penn Station: the look of total panic in tourists' eyes on NJ Transit when they hear "*Ksshk* Penn Station, Ne-*sshhk*-rk." Who in the name of the Great Bambino thought that was a good idea? Was it a group of rail barons all getting together to have a good laugh at the plebs' public school diction?
posted by Diagonalize at 9:35 PM on February 29, 2016 [9 favorites]


The original Penn Station, if still around, would be a world heritage site. So many great buildings in NYC and Chicago lost in the name of progress. Sigh.
posted by persona au gratin at 12:22 AM on March 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


Spent 6 hours with kids waiting there for a (apparently perpetually) late Amtrak east coast train to Boston. From a tourist POV I loved the history and the mad NY bustle of the place but I wouldn't want to be commuting out of it.
posted by GallonOfAlan at 12:52 AM on March 1, 2016


I was hoping somebody would mention Tracks.

Tracks is a surprisingly good raw bar. They also have a neat collection of rail paraphernalia. Also - stupid trivia - I believe it's the longest bar in the city.
posted by kokaku at 2:11 AM on March 1, 2016 [4 favorites]


Lead us not into Penn Station...

Perhaps New York needs its own version of an old London rhyme called The Bus-driver's Prayer:

Our Father, which art in Hendon,
Harrow Road by Thy name,
Thy Kingston come,
Thy Wimbledon,
In Erith as it is it Hendon,
Give us this day our daily Brent,
And forgive us our Westminsters,
As we forgive those who Westminster against us,
Lead us not into Temple Station,
And deliver us from Ealing,
For Thine is the Kingston, the Purley and Crawley,
For Iver and Iver,
Crouch End.
posted by Paul Slade at 3:19 AM on March 1, 2016 [11 favorites]


I remember, circa 2010, listening to an NJ Transit conductor criticizing at length the management for buying the Canadian-designed double-decker trains—one of which he and I were actually being transported in. He said, they were an expensive solution to a problem that (in his opinion) could be easily dealt with by lengthening the existing trains, and if necessary, lengthening the platforms. The new trains have cost something like quarter to half a billion dollars.

Regardless of the economic substance of his criticism, I can totally empathize with his feeling that such a sum could be put to other uses, especially if they are someone working for an institution where they have little say in matters--and end up airing his gripes to the passengers. (For example, paying him better, maybe that's what he was saying.)

So what strikes me in Cuomo's quote is his idea that the biggest expenditure in the state's history is supposed to Make Things Better.

And again—it's not that the mayor is wrong about things, but has no one pointed out that perhaps the problem of Penn Station is not only an architectural one to be solved by construction, but a structural one? Where is that discourse, for example put forth by that train conductor in relation to issues that mattered to him?
posted by polymodus at 3:46 AM on March 1, 2016


I loooooove oysters (and the grand central oyster bar is one of my favorite and most nostalgic ny spots because my dad loved it and we had a bunch of good times there) but I don't think you could get me to eat raw food inside penn station for all the money in the world, sorry Tracks.

Honestly the logistics of penn station are so maddening I've never given much though to the mis matched underwhelming aesthetics.

For those who don't know - they don't have enough tracks or waiting areas so instead of telling people where to go in a reasonably timely fashion giant mobs of people congregate around TV screens which post the track number for a given train about 4 minutes before it departs causing crushing masses to funnel down narrow stairways and small escalators to the track level. Like, every day. That s how it's SUPPOSED to work? dog help you if there has been a (usually compounding) delay of an earlier train.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 4:12 AM on March 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


Diagonalize: "I just thought of something else I hate/love about Penn Station: the look of total panic in tourists' eyes on NJ Transit when they hear "*Ksshk* Penn Station, Ne-*sshhk*-rk." Who in the name of the Great Bambino thought that was a good idea? Was it a group of rail barons all getting together to have a good laugh at the plebs' public school diction?"

I'm not sure I get the question. Are you asking why The Pennsylvania Railroad named their terminal Pennsylvania Station?
posted by octothorpe at 4:17 AM on March 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm not sure I get the question. Are you asking why The Pennsylvania Railroad named their terminal Pennsylvania Station?

I think the issue is that New York Penn Station and Newark Penn Station sound almost interchangeable.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:24 AM on March 1, 2016 [2 favorites]




I'm not sure I get the question. Are you asking why The Pennsylvania Railroad named their terminal Pennsylvania Station?

I think the issue is that New York Penn Station and Newark Penn Station sound almost interchangeable.


I *heart* entropy.
posted by Chitownfats at 4:54 AM on March 1, 2016


The only thing that will save Penn Station is demolishing MSG. (Which is a hideous building and not really that nice inside either.) If only Amtrak came through Grand Central ...

(I assume it doesn't because it comes from Jersey and thus the tracks don't meet?)
posted by dame at 4:54 AM on March 1, 2016


I also don't get the "make the Farley the waiting room" -- the trains aren't going to move right? So people will still congregate by the tracks?
posted by dame at 4:55 AM on March 1, 2016


roomthreeseventeen: "I'm not sure I get the question. Are you asking why The Pennsylvania Railroad named their terminal Pennsylvania Station?

I think the issue is that New York Penn Station and Newark Penn Station sound almost interchangeable.
"

Ahh, never thought about that; I guess that I've always come in through Hoboken.
posted by octothorpe at 5:09 AM on March 1, 2016


If the Chitauri had destroyed Penn (and MSG) in Avengers instead of GCT they would have gotten the key to the city and a ticker-tape parade instead of a nuke.
posted by Skorgu at 5:30 AM on March 1, 2016 [10 favorites]


But deliver us from Port Authority
posted by IndigoJones at 6:01 AM on March 1, 2016


Given that the Pennsylvania Railroad is no more and many, many cities have Penn Stations, the renaming is not a bad idea.
posted by timdiggerm at 6:20 AM on March 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


When I was going to RIT in the 70s, Amtrak was an easy way (sort of) to get to Long Island. In those days Amtrak trains used Grand Central but the LIRR used Penn Station. Arrive at one of the most beautiful stations anywhere, grab the subway to Penn Station and enter Hell.

Now Amtrak uses Penn Station so you skip the subway ride. The Hell part remains.
posted by tommasz at 6:30 AM on March 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


I know I've been in NYC too long. I find the horror of Penn Station (and even more Port Authority, although I haven't been in there in years and do use Penn every few months for something) a perfect symbol for the horrors of the city above, overtaken by franchises selling shit, the very rich rubbing elbows disdainfully with the wretched of the earth, funny smells, too much noise (audible and visual) to think, not a sign of anything natural or organic or green to be seen anywhere, and an aura of alienation disguised by constant busyness which mostly consists of selling shit no one wants to people selling shit back to you. Oh and armed guards with machine guns.

I fucking hate it. That classical music they play at the entrances to keep out the riff raff just tops it off for me, as it is exactly the best use for Vivaldi I've ever heard and yet a symbol of the instrumentalization of (banal, mediocre, hackneyed, tired, overrated, and whiteness-exuding) art as a tool of privilege and power.

Pragmatically, I too laugh at the idea of Andrew Cuomo having a "plan" for anything related to the city that isn't secretly intended to fuck us all over even more than we already are.

After 20 years, and even living a relatively luxurious version of a New York worker's life, I dream of escape. And when I do it won't be by train.

"Gritty authenticity" is gentrifier speak by the way. The people who use it mostly don't go home to "gritty authentic" neighborhoods or homes.
posted by spitbull at 6:36 AM on March 1, 2016 [3 favorites]


The Hell part remains.

That's purgatory, if you're going to the Long Island I know.
posted by spitbull at 6:38 AM on March 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


The LIRR section of Penn Station is designed for (and hampered by) the massive number of regular commuters that use it. It is the busiest commmuter railroad in the US, which makes the logistics of getting trains in and out on time immensely complex. For people not from LI it is a confusing system, but for regular riders it is very predictable. For instance, the Huntington train almost always arrives on track 17. Futhermore, if you know the station, you also know that waiting in the main area with the huge crowds is a fool's errand - there are two parallel corridors with the same displays that are not filled up with impatient commuters and from which you can assure yourself a good seat.

It is not pretty and it is not friendly, but it is very effective, and unlike Grand Central the subway access is straightforward - either end of the long shopping corridor. Also, unlike the NJT terminal, you don't need to wait in an enormous line to get a ticket.

Port Authority, on the other hand, is like something straight out of "Brazil."
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:03 AM on March 1, 2016 [4 favorites]


Seriously, screw MSG and all the other expensive sports stadiums ruining cities across the country.
posted by R a c h e l at 7:14 AM on March 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


So wait, Amtrak *could* use the pretty, pleasant station but doesn't because it prefers west side trains?? It's all more tragic than I expected.
posted by dame at 7:16 AM on March 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm on a train to Penn Station now! I pass through it twice a day every workday, and it is invariably the low point of my day. I like the idea of it being renovated, but not the idea of having to use it mid-renovation. Time for a career change, maybe.

And to clarify an above question, there's no use in waiting on the platform for NJT as you never know which track your train will arrive upon until it has already arrived and been announced (which is generally 10 minutes before its departure time). So everyone waits in the lower waiting room (from which all the seats have been removed), the upper waiting room, or the claustrophobic tunnel on the 8th Avenue end of the station.
posted by ejs at 7:52 AM on March 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


I go up to Boston via Amtrak on a semi-regular basis. For some reason, the lack of seating outside of the Amtrak waiting area bothers me a great deal. I know that Grand Central does really have seating either, but the design of the space does not make it feel like you need to sit down. Also, I think that the fact that only a few of the spaces to get food actually have places to sit and eat it (and those that do are of the TGIFridays or Taco Bell persuasion), while in Grand Central, there is the food court area.

Penn wants you gone. You are not welcome there, you are an interloper, welcome to New York, now fuck off. Grand Central invites you to stop for a little while and enjoy the place before you leave.

Personally, I think they should move MSG back to the Madison Square area. I like Eataly, but I would happily sacrifice it for a better Penn experience.
posted by Hactar at 8:14 AM on March 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


Personally, I think they should move MSG back to the Madison Square area. I like Eataly, but I would happily sacrifice it for a better Penn experience.

Why would you destroy that area for an arena? The Hudson Yards are a prime candidate - they're an eyesore and have lots of airspace to fill.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:29 AM on March 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


My first visit to NYC over thirty years ago began in Penn Station. It was not an auspicious welcome.

Mine too! Though not thirty years ago, just eight. A young woman wept at me until I gave her $5 to "get a train home" and then the friend I was visiting scolded me for being a chump because apparently that woman was there every day.

It never occurred to me that Penn Station could even be evaluated on its aesthetic. Why think about aesthetic when you are immediately swallowed up by the confused anxiety of the station's layout as soon as you enter? Penn Station wants you to leave immediately, but it has no idea how to help you do that. You have to help it help you.
posted by rhythm and booze at 9:12 AM on March 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


KingEdRa: Whatever happened to the plan to turn the Farley Post Office across the street into a new Penn Station?

It's still happening. Big real estate projects in Manhattan are impossibly complex and move incredibly slowly. Read this section of the Penn Station Wikipedia page, and then follow some of the references it links to. See also the Gateway Project page for another epic writeup.
posted by intermod at 10:22 AM on March 1, 2016


Doing anything with Penn is a nightmare because of the massive passenger volume. That's something that East Side Access is designed to (partially) address by letting LIRR trains flow into GCT as well as Penn.
posted by Skorgu at 11:05 AM on March 1, 2016 [4 favorites]


Perhaps one of the biggest problems with NYP that I never see mentioned is that fact that the place is an incredible fire trap. Each morning after disembarking my NJT train there is at least a ten minute wait to get to the actual station from the platform as a full train of commuters disembark and try to make their way up the two or three open staircases / escalators open on each platform. Even a small track fire would cause a crushing stampede.
posted by jebellweather at 12:00 PM on March 1, 2016 [4 favorites]


Long-haul passenger rail (eventually all operated by Amtrak) moved out of GCT because the demand for New York-originated northbound and westbound long haul trains had dropped too low. (As a terminal, not a station, GCT is impracticable as anything other than the first or last stop of a journey -- a through train which stopped at GCT would need to do a huge, impraticable (in time and money) loop around.

Relocated to NY Penn Station, the trains to or from Montreal or Boston could come from / continue on to Philly and DC. Presumably Amtrak also liked the idea of being fed by LIRR commuters, who had no point other than Penn Station New York to connect. (Metro-North riders can connect to Boston trains at New Rochelle or Stamford and to Albany / Montreal trains on the Hudson Line side.)
posted by MattD at 12:14 PM on March 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


Getting drunk at Tracks before catching a train used to be a ritual for me. It's probably why I have a vague nostalgia for Penn Station. Also that I first started using Penn as a teenager going to Star Trek and Comic Cons. Either nearby Manhattan hotels like the Commodore or the McAlpin. Of venues in New Jersey or Long Island.

I can't hate it. Too many blurred, happy memories.
posted by Splunge at 12:44 PM on March 1, 2016 [1 favorite]


Tracks' continued success is a heartening tale. It opened in the last few months I was commuting daily through Penn Station and I really enjoyed it; great place to hook up with friends or just to go on your own with 20-30 minutes to kill before your train. I was certain it was one of those "too beautiful to survive" and would be closed to make way for a really narrow cell phone store or something, but, lo, more than a decade later, still thriving.

I'm a Grand Central commuter these days and the closest thing to it inside the station was the postage-stamp size bar at Two Boots in the food concourse, but that just closed. Still have Maggie's on the street by the uptown entrance of course.
posted by MattD at 12:57 PM on March 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


Tracks is a surprisingly good raw bar.

Indeed. Push past the bar to the dining room and Tracks is actually one of the better inexpensive restaurants for several blocks around.
posted by Jahaza at 1:39 PM on March 1, 2016 [2 favorites]


Penn Station is totally linked with caving in my mind now

The first quite-a-few times I arrived at Penn on NJT they were playing Vivaldi's Mandolin Concerto in C as the muzak, which seemed quite incongruous in the teeming corridors. So now Penn Station and classical mandolin playing are linked in my mind...
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 4:16 PM on March 1, 2016


Tracks is:

- the first place my wife and I ate after dropping off the rental car for our cross country move
- the official restaurant of my band The Paranoid Style
- the last known location of my vintage Roll The Bones tour hat, lost to three too many shots of Jamesons

TL;DR: Tracks contains multitudes
posted by grumpybear69 at 4:29 PM on March 1, 2016


Penn Station is still an ashtray doused in urine.

God, I miss New York.

Seriously. Statements like that make me nostalgic. My family goes back several generations in Brooklyn, and that will always be the smell of home, to me. The taste of home is those shitty street vendor pretzels that taste like newspaper.
posted by MexicanYenta at 9:00 AM on March 2, 2016


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