“To begin with I was hoping it was just a phase.”
March 2, 2016 1:13 PM Subscribe
What should we do about paedophiles? by Sophie Elmhirst [The Guardian] They have committed unspeakable crimes that demand harsh punishment. But most will eventually be set free. Are we prepared to support efforts to rehabilitate them?
Even paedophiles with long and horrifying records, like Aaron Collis, are eventually let out of prison. “I’m now 30 years old and I have about 20 months left on my tariff,” he wrote in a letter sent in July. “I’m confident I will be out by the time I’m 35 years old. I will still be young, but will I be rehabilitated?” For someone like Collis, rehabilitation – whatever form the treatment takes – will be a management of desire, not an eradication. There is no cure. However you define or explain paedophilia, the more pressing concern, therefore, is how a society responds to the problem, and protects its children.
Our solutions are either castration, or "keep the urge to yourself and never act on it."
Well, chemical castration, which is temporary and reversible (though it does have side effects that can outlast treatment).
posted by Etrigan at 1:30 PM on March 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
Well, chemical castration, which is temporary and reversible (though it does have side effects that can outlast treatment).
posted by Etrigan at 1:30 PM on March 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
Chemical castration is exactly what was used on homosexuals for much of the 20th century, though, which is what explosion was alluding to in the first place.
Yeah, this is a really shitty problem. I don't have even an inkling of what would be a just solution here.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:43 PM on March 2, 2016 [7 favorites]
Yeah, this is a really shitty problem. I don't have even an inkling of what would be a just solution here.
posted by tobascodagama at 1:43 PM on March 2, 2016 [7 favorites]
Paedophiles occupy an unambiguous position in society: they are the lowest of the low, the authors of unspeakable crimes
I think its important to distinguish between pedophiles and child rapists. A pedophile has not necessarily committed any crimes, and should not be subject to the same hatred as a rapist. The science increasingly seems to say that pedophilia is a sexual orientation, and someone who is able to control themselves and not act on such urges should be generally given favorable consideration.
(For similar reasons, it should be easier and less fraught with legal danger for such people to seek help. We should be doing everything we can to help pedophiles not become abusers.)
posted by thefoxgod at 1:43 PM on March 2, 2016 [60 favorites]
I think its important to distinguish between pedophiles and child rapists. A pedophile has not necessarily committed any crimes, and should not be subject to the same hatred as a rapist. The science increasingly seems to say that pedophilia is a sexual orientation, and someone who is able to control themselves and not act on such urges should be generally given favorable consideration.
(For similar reasons, it should be easier and less fraught with legal danger for such people to seek help. We should be doing everything we can to help pedophiles not become abusers.)
posted by thefoxgod at 1:43 PM on March 2, 2016 [60 favorites]
imply that there is a “cure”, that paedophilia is a sickness rather than the worst possible crime?
Paedophilia is not a crime. It's not even immoral. What are immoral and illegal are sexual assault, abuse and rape, the facilitation or encouragement of that by viewing pornography made using nonconsenting victims and the exploitation inherent in the making and viewing of such pornography. These are the things that we need desperately to stop, and the constant emphasis on the thoughtcrime of paedophilia itself, and the need for even supposedly thoughtful articles like this to repeatedly signal 'not excusing the paedos, I hate paedos too' is an indication of how far we are from a discourse that will actually help us best protect the victims of sexual crime.
posted by howfar at 1:43 PM on March 2, 2016 [51 favorites]
Paedophilia is not a crime. It's not even immoral. What are immoral and illegal are sexual assault, abuse and rape, the facilitation or encouragement of that by viewing pornography made using nonconsenting victims and the exploitation inherent in the making and viewing of such pornography. These are the things that we need desperately to stop, and the constant emphasis on the thoughtcrime of paedophilia itself, and the need for even supposedly thoughtful articles like this to repeatedly signal 'not excusing the paedos, I hate paedos too' is an indication of how far we are from a discourse that will actually help us best protect the victims of sexual crime.
posted by howfar at 1:43 PM on March 2, 2016 [51 favorites]
Also, as the article additionally points out, a child rapist is not necessarily a pedophile (in the "primarily attracted to children" sense).
posted by thefoxgod at 1:44 PM on March 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by thefoxgod at 1:44 PM on March 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
I was amazed that SSRIs were one of these treatments folks were having trouble getting -- I expected it to all be the anti-androgen stuff. But dang, if a person with clear functional issues wants to try SSRIs that should be no problem!
"A group – or circle – of these volunteers then meet with the ex-offender weekly for a year to 18 months, in the hope that by providing regular social contact they will counter the isolation sex offenders often experience after release and prevent reoffending. "
Having worked in a program to reduce social isolation I suspect this holds true for a lot of other types of crime and other maladaptive behaviors. Just having people who want to get along with you to share your frustrations with and sometimes brainstorm solutions with can go a long way and knowing that unless you do something just totally horrible they'll be back next week -- it can have a huge effect on a persons stability.
posted by Matt Oneiros at 1:56 PM on March 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
"A group – or circle – of these volunteers then meet with the ex-offender weekly for a year to 18 months, in the hope that by providing regular social contact they will counter the isolation sex offenders often experience after release and prevent reoffending. "
Having worked in a program to reduce social isolation I suspect this holds true for a lot of other types of crime and other maladaptive behaviors. Just having people who want to get along with you to share your frustrations with and sometimes brainstorm solutions with can go a long way and knowing that unless you do something just totally horrible they'll be back next week -- it can have a huge effect on a persons stability.
posted by Matt Oneiros at 1:56 PM on March 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
Our solutions are either castration, or "keep the urge to yourself and never act on it." It's frightening to think how wrong these were for homosexuality, and yet, how horribly appropriate it may be for paedophilia.
I know you're not drawing an equivalence between homosexuality and paedophilia, but it's important to distinguish sexual acts between consenting adults and sexual acts between adults and children, which most would argue carry no legitimate consent because of the minor's age.
Unless we're positing some future where paedophilia won't be considered immoral and criminal, it's weird to compare the two.
I'm all for showing compassion to paedophiles who don't act on their uges and for providing them whatever resources they need to avoid doing so, but actual child rapists get no sympathy from me.
posted by echocollate at 1:59 PM on March 2, 2016 [18 favorites]
I know you're not drawing an equivalence between homosexuality and paedophilia, but it's important to distinguish sexual acts between consenting adults and sexual acts between adults and children, which most would argue carry no legitimate consent because of the minor's age.
Unless we're positing some future where paedophilia won't be considered immoral and criminal, it's weird to compare the two.
I'm all for showing compassion to paedophiles who don't act on their uges and for providing them whatever resources they need to avoid doing so, but actual child rapists get no sympathy from me.
posted by echocollate at 1:59 PM on March 2, 2016 [18 favorites]
i know this is a huge problem, but as a survivor of childhood sexual assault who will never know justice for the crimes done against me, and knowing just how many survivors are in exactly my spot, i'm far more concerned with why so many child rapists never get arrested, much less punished, for their crimes.
posted by nadawi at 2:06 PM on March 2, 2016 [44 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 2:06 PM on March 2, 2016 [44 favorites]
I dunno, chemical castration strikes me as an inherently inhumane act. I think that's the equivalence being drawn here. It's more of just a question: If it was wrong in this one case, why is it neither cruel nor unusual in this other case?
Probably a better way to post the question is this: we don't chemically castrate offenders who commit other forms of sexual assault, so why is it ok for this one specific class of offenders?
posted by tobascodagama at 2:06 PM on March 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
Probably a better way to post the question is this: we don't chemically castrate offenders who commit other forms of sexual assault, so why is it ok for this one specific class of offenders?
posted by tobascodagama at 2:06 PM on March 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
Chemical castration is not a simple "cure" for paedophilia, I hope we can avoid framing the conversation as such.
posted by mikek at 2:08 PM on March 2, 2016
posted by mikek at 2:08 PM on March 2, 2016
With the laws in the US being what they are, starting in the late 80's early 90's it is starting to become a critical concideration that convicted registered sex offenders are now getting old are needing long term care. No nursing home, shelter or rehab wants to take them and now they are just sitting in hospitals dying.
It is really wierd to see it from the perspective that offenders (reformed or not) lives are so restrictive and punitive (housing, medical care, food pantries, lack of ability to enjoy public spaces legally).
Add a survivor I'm all for some of what is going on but at the same time an 89 year old man who abused 30 years ago isn't a/my concern, making sure he doesn't die due to negligence is.
posted by AlexiaSky at 2:15 PM on March 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
It is really wierd to see it from the perspective that offenders (reformed or not) lives are so restrictive and punitive (housing, medical care, food pantries, lack of ability to enjoy public spaces legally).
Add a survivor I'm all for some of what is going on but at the same time an 89 year old man who abused 30 years ago isn't a/my concern, making sure he doesn't die due to negligence is.
posted by AlexiaSky at 2:15 PM on March 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
This American Life did an episode about a pedophile self-help group a few years ago.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:34 PM on March 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:34 PM on March 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
But most will eventually be set free.
I mean, only to be locked up 6 months later for being homeless (because they can't find anywhere to live that qualifies under the restrictive residency requirements), and therefore failing to keep a current address on the sex offender registry. Which is a felony. Rinse and repeat, each time with a more severe prison sentence.
As a presiding judge recently put it on one such case "you can't be homeless and be a sex offender." Let's be real: any offense getting you on the lifetime sex offender registry is a life sentence, including "consensual" statutory rape between teenagers in some states.
posted by likeatoaster at 4:02 PM on March 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
I mean, only to be locked up 6 months later for being homeless (because they can't find anywhere to live that qualifies under the restrictive residency requirements), and therefore failing to keep a current address on the sex offender registry. Which is a felony. Rinse and repeat, each time with a more severe prison sentence.
As a presiding judge recently put it on one such case "you can't be homeless and be a sex offender." Let's be real: any offense getting you on the lifetime sex offender registry is a life sentence, including "consensual" statutory rape between teenagers in some states.
posted by likeatoaster at 4:02 PM on March 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
Can Child Dolls Keep Pedophiles from Offending? One man thinks so, and he’s been manufacturing them for clients for more than ten years.
posted by gottabefunky at 4:04 PM on March 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by gottabefunky at 4:04 PM on March 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
Which I guess is just to say, I feel like as a society what we have decided to do about pedophiles (who act on it) is to pay for them to spend their lives in cages.
posted by likeatoaster at 4:06 PM on March 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by likeatoaster at 4:06 PM on March 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
I dunno, chemical castration strikes me as an inherently inhumane act.
"Chemical castration" is just an unnecessarily inflammatory and scary-sounding name for antiandrogen medication — which is taken voluntarily by thousands of trans women, cis women with PCOS or other hormonal conditions, and cis men with androgen-dependent cancers.
It is gross and inhumane to give it to someone nonconsensually, as was sometimes done to homosexuals. But we already have a lot of situations where it is widely considered acceptable to give it to someone with their informed consent.
posted by nebulawindphone at 4:06 PM on March 2, 2016 [30 favorites]
"Chemical castration" is just an unnecessarily inflammatory and scary-sounding name for antiandrogen medication — which is taken voluntarily by thousands of trans women, cis women with PCOS or other hormonal conditions, and cis men with androgen-dependent cancers.
It is gross and inhumane to give it to someone nonconsensually, as was sometimes done to homosexuals. But we already have a lot of situations where it is widely considered acceptable to give it to someone with their informed consent.
posted by nebulawindphone at 4:06 PM on March 2, 2016 [30 favorites]
Unless we're positing some future where paedophilia won't be considered immoral and criminal, it's weird to compare the two.
It's not that weird, and it is an illuminating comparison. Society has learned, or is learning, that homosexuality is neither a choice nor a sickness, that we don't choose our sexual orientation, and the logical extension of that belief is that pedophiles don't choose to be sexually attracted to children. Where pedophiles differ from homosexuals -- or heterosexuals, for that matter -- is that while what consenting adults do is their own business, children cannot consent to sex with an adult. It would be a nightmarish thing to find oneself a pedophile. To spend one's entire life celibate, to never know sexual satisfaction or intimacy, to never even be able to talk to anyone about it without taking a serious risk of them having a very negative reaction to what you have to tell them, would be so horrible. And what can we do to help them? Very little, at present, because there is no medical treatment that can change one's sexual preferences. We'll have a "cure" for pedophilia when we have a "cure" for homosexuality or heterosexuality.
posted by orange swan at 4:12 PM on March 2, 2016 [10 favorites]
It's not that weird, and it is an illuminating comparison. Society has learned, or is learning, that homosexuality is neither a choice nor a sickness, that we don't choose our sexual orientation, and the logical extension of that belief is that pedophiles don't choose to be sexually attracted to children. Where pedophiles differ from homosexuals -- or heterosexuals, for that matter -- is that while what consenting adults do is their own business, children cannot consent to sex with an adult. It would be a nightmarish thing to find oneself a pedophile. To spend one's entire life celibate, to never know sexual satisfaction or intimacy, to never even be able to talk to anyone about it without taking a serious risk of them having a very negative reaction to what you have to tell them, would be so horrible. And what can we do to help them? Very little, at present, because there is no medical treatment that can change one's sexual preferences. We'll have a "cure" for pedophilia when we have a "cure" for homosexuality or heterosexuality.
posted by orange swan at 4:12 PM on March 2, 2016 [10 favorites]
I mean, hell, I've been surgically castrated, consensually and quite happily, as a small part of an ongoing medical gender transition. Reducing my sex drive wasn't the main goal — but honestly, it's a side effect I'm pretty pleased with.
It's not inherently inhumane to reduce the amount of testosterone in someone's body. What's inhumane is making someone live with hormone levels that cause them real pain and suffering when we have safe means available for relieving that suffering.
posted by nebulawindphone at 4:17 PM on March 2, 2016 [14 favorites]
It's not inherently inhumane to reduce the amount of testosterone in someone's body. What's inhumane is making someone live with hormone levels that cause them real pain and suffering when we have safe means available for relieving that suffering.
posted by nebulawindphone at 4:17 PM on March 2, 2016 [14 favorites]
"consensually" being the key word here
posted by reprise the theme song and roll the credits at 4:26 PM on March 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by reprise the theme song and roll the credits at 4:26 PM on March 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
Of course! And if you read the fucking article, you'll see that consensual antiandrogen treatment is what it's talking about.
posted by nebulawindphone at 4:29 PM on March 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by nebulawindphone at 4:29 PM on March 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
The crucial paragraph, from fairly late in the article:
posted by nebulawindphone at 4:43 PM on March 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
But enforced chemical treatment is unlikely to occur in the UK. For a start, it goes against the principles of many doctors. As Grubin said: “You’re looking to the benefit of that individual, no matter how awful some of the things they’ve done are.” It’s why he dislikes the term chemical castration: it sounds more like punishment than treatment. “As a doctor,” said Grubin, “the person that you’re treating is your patient. Society is not your patient.”I think there's a lot of conversations to be had about the finer points of informed consent and how exactly to implement it in a situation like this. And let's be real, it does get a lot trickier when you're talking about prisoners or parolees. But it doesn't advance that conversation to pretend that anyone's talking about going back to involuntary "treatment" as part of a criminal sentence.
posted by nebulawindphone at 4:43 PM on March 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
Fair enough, that's my fault for not reading closely. I thought we were talking about involuntary criminal castration.
posted by tobascodagama at 6:24 PM on March 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by tobascodagama at 6:24 PM on March 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
Who could still think that pedophiles somehow choose such a horrible life? If only we made penalties more severe they would stop? We need more research done into preventing recidivism in abusers as well as preventing pedophilia from occurring in the first place (if childhood abuse is a cause of pedophilia, these may be the same thing). I am aware of the parallels to early homosexual "cures" but homosexuals can live consenting sexually active lives without harming anyone. That doesn't seem to be the case for pedophiles.
posted by benzenedream at 6:42 PM on March 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by benzenedream at 6:42 PM on March 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
Is there a discussion of mandatory travel bans? The near routine arrest and alerts for released sex offenders who head out to Cambodia is just depressing and a waste of resources in having to then monitor, arrest and deport them again. I prefer open borders and open records because freedom to travel is a human right, but right now, it's a mish mash.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 7:05 PM on March 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 7:05 PM on March 2, 2016 [1 favorite]
I am aware of the parallels to early homosexual "cures" but homosexuals can live consenting sexually active lives without harming anyone.
But the biology and psychology behind pedophilia don't care about justice, though. The fact that pedophiles can't have consenting sexually active lives doesn't have any bearing on whether or not pedophilia functions like sexual orientation.
(Aside: I'm super uncomfortable even calling it a sexual orientation, even if it's functionally identical, due to the history of demonizing gay people as pedophiles. And pedophilia is inherently maladaptive in a way homosexuality isn't--so perhaps something other than "sexual orientation" is needed to describe it. I don't know what that would be, though.)
But the thing that confuses me about the sympathy for offenders--the ones who have actually abused children--is the fact that lots of people don't have sex. Lots of straight people don't have sex. Lots of gay people don't have sex. Sometimes by choice, sometimes because they can't find a willing partner. People who can't find a willing partner are not, in general, compelled to rape, and I'm really unsympathetic to any arguments that they are. I guess I don't understand the struggle not to rape someone.
Is a male pedophile more likely to rape someone than, say, a straight man? If so, is it something about the psychology of pedophilia, or is it about opportunity and risk?
(Obvs., a startling number of straight men are rapists--but I pose the question because I wonder if there is something special about pedophilia.)
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:56 PM on March 2, 2016 [16 favorites]
But the biology and psychology behind pedophilia don't care about justice, though. The fact that pedophiles can't have consenting sexually active lives doesn't have any bearing on whether or not pedophilia functions like sexual orientation.
(Aside: I'm super uncomfortable even calling it a sexual orientation, even if it's functionally identical, due to the history of demonizing gay people as pedophiles. And pedophilia is inherently maladaptive in a way homosexuality isn't--so perhaps something other than "sexual orientation" is needed to describe it. I don't know what that would be, though.)
But the thing that confuses me about the sympathy for offenders--the ones who have actually abused children--is the fact that lots of people don't have sex. Lots of straight people don't have sex. Lots of gay people don't have sex. Sometimes by choice, sometimes because they can't find a willing partner. People who can't find a willing partner are not, in general, compelled to rape, and I'm really unsympathetic to any arguments that they are. I guess I don't understand the struggle not to rape someone.
Is a male pedophile more likely to rape someone than, say, a straight man? If so, is it something about the psychology of pedophilia, or is it about opportunity and risk?
(Obvs., a startling number of straight men are rapists--but I pose the question because I wonder if there is something special about pedophilia.)
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:56 PM on March 2, 2016 [16 favorites]
I would love to know the answer to that, but I'm fairly sure that the (completely understandable, in this case) stigma against admitting to feelings of pedophilia means we probably don't have a good handle on exactly how common a pedophilic compulsion is in the first place, which makes it hard to compare rates of offenders to non-offenders within that group.
My gut tells me that actual rapists are exactly as common among pedophiles as among hetereosexual or gay men. And I say this mostly because the current consensus on rape seems to be that it's motivated by a desire to impose one's will on another human as much or more than a desire for sex, so I would expect likelihood of a person from a given group to rape to be totally orthogonal to sexual orientation/compulsion.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:03 PM on March 2, 2016
My gut tells me that actual rapists are exactly as common among pedophiles as among hetereosexual or gay men. And I say this mostly because the current consensus on rape seems to be that it's motivated by a desire to impose one's will on another human as much or more than a desire for sex, so I would expect likelihood of a person from a given group to rape to be totally orthogonal to sexual orientation/compulsion.
posted by tobascodagama at 8:03 PM on March 2, 2016
The article talks a lot about possible treatment but one thing missing was any mention of remorse by people who did hurt children. It's one thing to feel a desire, but to hurt a child to relieve it seems to require that you first stop considering the child as a person equal with you.
The description of someone simply having an "immature" desire was interesting, but when I was 11 I still would have been able to feel empathy for a younger kid.
Maybe there are lots of truly remorseful offenders not represented here. Maybe. But I am also reminded of the tendency people used to have (and often still do) to let rapists off the hook because they were just so horny, implying an irresistible desire that was an excuse. But we don't commonly accept that excuse anymore for men who rape adult women. We think that even if you can't find an adult woman to have sex with, you are required to refrain from raping anyone.
Are we going to believe that the desire to have sex with children is even stronger than that? If not, then how is the person who assaults a child different from one who assaults an adult?
Is there a discussion of mandatory travel bans? The near routine arrest and alerts for released sex offenders who head out to Cambodia is just depressing and a waste of resources in having to then monitor, arrest and deport them again. I prefer open borders and open records because freedom to travel is a human right, but right now, it's a mish mash.
Isn't SE Asia a common destination for sex tourists looking for underage victims? I assume this is why there's a ban? Or am I missing something in your comment?
posted by emjaybee at 8:32 PM on March 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
The description of someone simply having an "immature" desire was interesting, but when I was 11 I still would have been able to feel empathy for a younger kid.
Maybe there are lots of truly remorseful offenders not represented here. Maybe. But I am also reminded of the tendency people used to have (and often still do) to let rapists off the hook because they were just so horny, implying an irresistible desire that was an excuse. But we don't commonly accept that excuse anymore for men who rape adult women. We think that even if you can't find an adult woman to have sex with, you are required to refrain from raping anyone.
Are we going to believe that the desire to have sex with children is even stronger than that? If not, then how is the person who assaults a child different from one who assaults an adult?
Is there a discussion of mandatory travel bans? The near routine arrest and alerts for released sex offenders who head out to Cambodia is just depressing and a waste of resources in having to then monitor, arrest and deport them again. I prefer open borders and open records because freedom to travel is a human right, but right now, it's a mish mash.
Isn't SE Asia a common destination for sex tourists looking for underage victims? I assume this is why there's a ban? Or am I missing something in your comment?
posted by emjaybee at 8:32 PM on March 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
There is no ban in almost all countries for sending out released sex offenders.
In some place, they often have to notify police of travel plans and there's been a big improvement with the automatic migration records going through to make the criminal record notification go through immediately, so someone on an offender's registry going to a country that refuses to accept people on that registry could be blocked from entry, but you don't lose your right to travel. The UK has I think a slightly better policy where you have to explain the purpose and itinerary of your trip in a dance, and if you travel without notifying them, that in itself is an automatic offence.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 8:54 PM on March 2, 2016
In some place, they often have to notify police of travel plans and there's been a big improvement with the automatic migration records going through to make the criminal record notification go through immediately, so someone on an offender's registry going to a country that refuses to accept people on that registry could be blocked from entry, but you don't lose your right to travel. The UK has I think a slightly better policy where you have to explain the purpose and itinerary of your trip in a dance, and if you travel without notifying them, that in itself is an automatic offence.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 8:54 PM on March 2, 2016
(Aside: I'm super uncomfortable even calling it a sexual orientation, even if it's functionally identical, due to the history of demonizing gay people as pedophiles. And pedophilia is inherently maladaptive in a way homosexuality isn't--so perhaps something other than "sexual orientation" is needed to describe it. I don't know what that would be, though.)
Proclivity, perhaps?
It's one thing to feel a desire, but to hurt a child to relieve it seems to require that you first stop considering the child as a person equal with you.
Yeah, but this isn't something that's at all uncommon. A lot of people simply do not grok that other people are people in the same way that they themself are a person. They may "know" it intellectually and be able to repeat it to you, but the actions of a lot of people (basically all rapists of all kinds included, but also a lot of other people such as tribal warlords, all kinds of violent religious/political extremists, domestic abusers, etc.) just don't make sense if they actually understand in their heart and gut that other people are people.
But I am also reminded of the tendency people used to have (and often still do) to let rapists off the hook because they were just so horny, implying an irresistible desire that was an excuse. But we don't commonly accept that excuse anymore for men who rape adult women.
I don't know where you're going with this, because we are not anywhere close to "letting pedophiles off the hook". We're so far in the other direction that almost nobody will even admit to having any degree of sexual attraction to children in public because they (correctly) assume that there will be violent reprisal, probably immediate, even if they've never done anything harmful and never will. You definitely don't need to worry about a rapist of children getting away with it on the excuse that they were feeling horny.
posted by IAmUnaware at 11:18 PM on March 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
Proclivity, perhaps?
It's one thing to feel a desire, but to hurt a child to relieve it seems to require that you first stop considering the child as a person equal with you.
Yeah, but this isn't something that's at all uncommon. A lot of people simply do not grok that other people are people in the same way that they themself are a person. They may "know" it intellectually and be able to repeat it to you, but the actions of a lot of people (basically all rapists of all kinds included, but also a lot of other people such as tribal warlords, all kinds of violent religious/political extremists, domestic abusers, etc.) just don't make sense if they actually understand in their heart and gut that other people are people.
But I am also reminded of the tendency people used to have (and often still do) to let rapists off the hook because they were just so horny, implying an irresistible desire that was an excuse. But we don't commonly accept that excuse anymore for men who rape adult women.
I don't know where you're going with this, because we are not anywhere close to "letting pedophiles off the hook". We're so far in the other direction that almost nobody will even admit to having any degree of sexual attraction to children in public because they (correctly) assume that there will be violent reprisal, probably immediate, even if they've never done anything harmful and never will. You definitely don't need to worry about a rapist of children getting away with it on the excuse that they were feeling horny.
posted by IAmUnaware at 11:18 PM on March 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
to hurt a child to relieve it seems to require that you first stop considering the child as a person equal with you.
More likely you convince yourself there's no hurt, that the child doesn't mind or enjoys it, or will with a little encouragement and help...
posted by Segundus at 11:38 PM on March 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
More likely you convince yourself there's no hurt, that the child doesn't mind or enjoys it, or will with a little encouragement and help...
posted by Segundus at 11:38 PM on March 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
I have opinions about adults who are attracted to children. I wrote about them in a previous thread. I won't copy/paste, I'll just link that earlier comment.
posted by hippybear at 12:24 AM on March 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 12:24 AM on March 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
The UK has I think a slightly better policy where you have to explain the purpose and itinerary of your trip in a dance [...]
It's a splendidly baroque requirement but it could be somewhat limiting. Are there other options, like presenting your itinerary in the form of a giant cake, or upholstery?
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:23 AM on March 3, 2016 [7 favorites]
It's a splendidly baroque requirement but it could be somewhat limiting. Are there other options, like presenting your itinerary in the form of a giant cake, or upholstery?
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:23 AM on March 3, 2016 [7 favorites]
I know you're not drawing an equivalence between homosexuality and paedophilia, but it's important to distinguish sexual acts between consenting adults and sexual acts between adults and children, which most would argue carry no legitimate consent because of the minor's age.
Unless we're positing some future where paedophilia won't be considered immoral and criminal, it's weird to compare the two.
That's fair, but a) I think the distinction between paedophiles and child rapists is important to maintain, as others have noted, but as the article fails to do b) rather than drawing an equivalence I think the original comment may have been a reference to homosexuality being included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual as late as 1972. (Having had depression/anxiety diagnoses from later versions of that same manual, I find this a bit unsettling: what else will have disappeared in another 40 years? More importantly, homosexuality being in there in the first place is morally repugnant and must have required a substantial effort of historical revisionism.)
Back on topic, the reason for maintaining a distinction there is everybody seems to agree that paedophiles have no choice about their attraction - that is, if they could change it, they would. So there is something obviously missing from the article - namely some personal accounts from paedophiles, not child rapists - I think there are a few on Reddit (perhaps an AMA or two, otherwise probably searchable). IIRC some common themes are a) feeling terrified their lives are ruined, without them having acted on their desires or committed any crimes b) feeling hopeless because there's no clear solution for them. I think there's a pretty clear case to be made that people in that category should be able to access treatment to prevent them offending in the beginning, so Germany might be on to something (though I think they go a little far in maintaining confidentiality if an abuse has already been committed - not sure that's a good plan. The overarching goal is obviously to prevent as much abuse as possible, but I think they could perhaps prevent *more* by altering that point a bit.)
Other than that, it's really really stupid that Collis wasn't able to access medication when he was literally begging for it. That's a sign of major systemic dysfunction, so commonsensically a fair bit needs to change.
Finally - SSRIs by no means always decrease sex drive. I've been on them most of my adult life, and a few of them actually increase it a lot. So I found that part a bit strange.
/$0.02
posted by iffthen at 2:51 AM on March 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Unless we're positing some future where paedophilia won't be considered immoral and criminal, it's weird to compare the two.
That's fair, but a) I think the distinction between paedophiles and child rapists is important to maintain, as others have noted, but as the article fails to do b) rather than drawing an equivalence I think the original comment may have been a reference to homosexuality being included in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual as late as 1972. (Having had depression/anxiety diagnoses from later versions of that same manual, I find this a bit unsettling: what else will have disappeared in another 40 years? More importantly, homosexuality being in there in the first place is morally repugnant and must have required a substantial effort of historical revisionism.)
Back on topic, the reason for maintaining a distinction there is everybody seems to agree that paedophiles have no choice about their attraction - that is, if they could change it, they would. So there is something obviously missing from the article - namely some personal accounts from paedophiles, not child rapists - I think there are a few on Reddit (perhaps an AMA or two, otherwise probably searchable). IIRC some common themes are a) feeling terrified their lives are ruined, without them having acted on their desires or committed any crimes b) feeling hopeless because there's no clear solution for them. I think there's a pretty clear case to be made that people in that category should be able to access treatment to prevent them offending in the beginning, so Germany might be on to something (though I think they go a little far in maintaining confidentiality if an abuse has already been committed - not sure that's a good plan. The overarching goal is obviously to prevent as much abuse as possible, but I think they could perhaps prevent *more* by altering that point a bit.)
Other than that, it's really really stupid that Collis wasn't able to access medication when he was literally begging for it. That's a sign of major systemic dysfunction, so commonsensically a fair bit needs to change.
Finally - SSRIs by no means always decrease sex drive. I've been on them most of my adult life, and a few of them actually increase it a lot. So I found that part a bit strange.
/$0.02
posted by iffthen at 2:51 AM on March 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
the topic of the post is explictly about child rapists since we're discussing what to do with pedophiles after they get out of prison. if they are in prison for acting on being pedophiles, then they're victimizing kids. there's all sorts of discussions to have about the pedophiles who have worked out how to not hurt kids, but that's not what this thread is about.
You definitely don't need to worry about a rapist of children getting away with it on the excuse that they were feeling horny.
you do need to worry that victims of child rapists are told that we are "leading him on" or being " too precocious" and vows among the adults to keep a closer eye on the kids and uncle so&so. the victims are also told things like "it's a family matter and the bishop is praying with him." in more places than we'd like to admit, people still see homosexuality and pedophilia as equal sins - and in function actually view homosexuality as worse - and so a little repentance on the part of the victim and rapist will clear all of this right up.
posted by nadawi at 6:32 AM on March 3, 2016 [11 favorites]
You definitely don't need to worry about a rapist of children getting away with it on the excuse that they were feeling horny.
you do need to worry that victims of child rapists are told that we are "leading him on" or being " too precocious" and vows among the adults to keep a closer eye on the kids and uncle so&so. the victims are also told things like "it's a family matter and the bishop is praying with him." in more places than we'd like to admit, people still see homosexuality and pedophilia as equal sins - and in function actually view homosexuality as worse - and so a little repentance on the part of the victim and rapist will clear all of this right up.
posted by nadawi at 6:32 AM on March 3, 2016 [11 favorites]
there is something obviously missing from the article - namely some personal accounts from paedophiles, not child rapists
I suspect that is harder to get verified accounts of, since pedophiles are quite reasonably worried about legal or vigilante action even if they have not committed an offense (while those already in jail have less to lose, in a sense). Completely anonymous internet accounts may be somewhat interesting, but who knows who is actually writing them.
The topic of the post is explictly about child rapists since we're discussing what to do with pedophiles after they get out of prison
Actually the article covers a lot of ground, including those who have not offended ("What about those who have not actually abused yet?" - from the article, and it mentions them in some other places too).
The article does mix pedophilia and child rape sometimes, while distinguishing them other times, so its kind of a mess (especially the title/header). But it is not exclusively about rapists.
posted by thefoxgod at 4:53 PM on March 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
I suspect that is harder to get verified accounts of, since pedophiles are quite reasonably worried about legal or vigilante action even if they have not committed an offense (while those already in jail have less to lose, in a sense). Completely anonymous internet accounts may be somewhat interesting, but who knows who is actually writing them.
The topic of the post is explictly about child rapists since we're discussing what to do with pedophiles after they get out of prison
Actually the article covers a lot of ground, including those who have not offended ("What about those who have not actually abused yet?" - from the article, and it mentions them in some other places too).
The article does mix pedophilia and child rape sometimes, while distinguishing them other times, so its kind of a mess (especially the title/header). But it is not exclusively about rapists.
posted by thefoxgod at 4:53 PM on March 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
I suspect that is harder to get verified accounts of, since pedophiles are quite reasonably worried about legal or vigilante action even if they have not committed an offense
Many US states have mandatory reporting such that someone seeking treatment for an urge they have never acted upon and which they want to avoid acting upon... would force the therapist to choose between breaking the law and reporting the confession.
I have personally given up much hope of any sort of sensible approach to dealing with paedophiles in the US. The sex offender registry is pretty well baked into all the states no. Libel laws protect people when citing government documents in general and my state at least explicitly carves out a protection saying that simply referring to or republishing data from the SOR cannot be construed to be harassment. It's hard to view the result as anything other than a deliberate system to facilitate ostracizing at minimum and vigilante justice at worst.
It's not like we're much better on trying to prevent recidivism in other criminal areas, I suppose.
posted by phearlez at 2:14 PM on March 5, 2016
Many US states have mandatory reporting such that someone seeking treatment for an urge they have never acted upon and which they want to avoid acting upon... would force the therapist to choose between breaking the law and reporting the confession.
I have personally given up much hope of any sort of sensible approach to dealing with paedophiles in the US. The sex offender registry is pretty well baked into all the states no. Libel laws protect people when citing government documents in general and my state at least explicitly carves out a protection saying that simply referring to or republishing data from the SOR cannot be construed to be harassment. It's hard to view the result as anything other than a deliberate system to facilitate ostracizing at minimum and vigilante justice at worst.
It's not like we're much better on trying to prevent recidivism in other criminal areas, I suppose.
posted by phearlez at 2:14 PM on March 5, 2016
« Older We haven't won this one yet, aliens could still... | He Loves To Eat Hair Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Jeeeeez. The subject of the article knows it's wrong. He admits it. He doesn't WANT to feel these feelings. There doesn't have to be a cure for something to be a sickness, but how heartless are we to deny that someone could have a perversion of the mind, a mental illness, rather than just writing them off as an EEEEVIL criminal?
I get super-uncomfortable with the matter not only because of the horrendous consent issues, but because the best solutions we have right now echo the horrible treatment of homosexuals in the previous century.
Our solutions are either castration, or "keep the urge to yourself and never act on it." It's frightening to think how wrong these were for homosexuality, and yet, how horribly appropriate it may be for paedophilia.
posted by explosion at 1:24 PM on March 2, 2016 [20 favorites]