New Zealand flag referendum enters final stage
March 3, 2016 7:41 AM Subscribe
New Zealanders have begun voting in the second stage of a referendum on whether to change their national flag. The alternatives are between the current flag, with the Union Flag emblem, and a new variant with the iconic Silver Fern. The referendum will run through March 24. Previously.
Is the number of points on each side of the Silver Fern representative of anything? Or is there otherwise some sort of mnemonic for remembering how many there are? Some cursory searching didn't turn anything up.
posted by jedicus at 7:51 AM on March 3, 2016
posted by jedicus at 7:51 AM on March 3, 2016
Just to get it over with: John Oliver sends Peter Jackson a dildo flag.
posted by Etrigan at 7:55 AM on March 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 7:55 AM on March 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
No country should have a flag that a kindergartener can't draw.
What happened to the one with the big red triangle?
posted by jacquilynne at 7:55 AM on March 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
What happened to the one with the big red triangle?
posted by jacquilynne at 7:55 AM on March 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
I love the spirit of the fern flag, native species and the southern cross, the stars overhead. It is a great national identifier. It is not my nation, but I am fond of Earth and stellar thinking.
posted by Oyéah at 7:59 AM on March 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Oyéah at 7:59 AM on March 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh man, I hope they vote to change it. The silver fern is such an iconic symbol of NZ - I think it's great.
posted by widdershins at 8:04 AM on March 3, 2016
posted by widdershins at 8:04 AM on March 3, 2016
Although I back New Zealand (and Australia and wherever else) in taking the Union Jack from their flags, I must say that the alternative put forward is not appealing. The stars and fern elements are unbalanced: neither is obviously the main element, yet the fern doesn't sit in the canton.
posted by Emma May Smith at 8:04 AM on March 3, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Emma May Smith at 8:04 AM on March 3, 2016 [7 favorites]
As an American who does internet flag quizzes that sometimes require me to remember which one is New Zealand and which is Australia, I'm counting on you.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:05 AM on March 3, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:05 AM on March 3, 2016 [21 favorites]
After what Peter Jackson has done for New Zealand's film industry over the past 20 years, you'd think they'd go for the White Tree of Gondor.
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:18 AM on March 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:18 AM on March 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
The silver fern design is beautiful, but I have vexillological vexings about it. It seems like one of those complicated bits of design that don't scale well. I would be sad if NZ rejected the eye-laser kiwi only to end up with something that looks like a bumpy silver dildo once you reproduce it on the small scale.
posted by Panjandrum at 8:53 AM on March 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Panjandrum at 8:53 AM on March 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Me, I'd go with the Sheep And Hokey-Pokey Ice Cream. These are the best thing NZ offers the world.
mmmm, honeycomb
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:07 AM on March 3, 2016
mmmm, honeycomb
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:07 AM on March 3, 2016
No! Minties and scarlet manuka honey and Footrot Flats.
Tell me this wouldn't be awesome on a flag.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:14 AM on March 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Tell me this wouldn't be awesome on a flag.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:14 AM on March 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
Although I back New Zealand (and Australia and wherever else) in taking the Union Jack from their flags, I must say that the alternative put forward is not appealing.
Yes, exactly. At this point in time having the Union Jack, aka flag of a totally different country, stuck onto our flag is frankly just embarrassing, it's that stupid. But the alternative we've ended up with is so clunky and doesn't quite gel, I don't see how it can be chosen as a better alternative. But if we don't change it now we won't get another chance any time soon, if ever. I'm quite torn about which one to vote for, assuming my voting papers arrive in time (the last ones did, she'll be right mate).
It also turns out I really really don't care about the opinions of non-NZers on this matter, like at all. Which I didn't know before so that's mildly interesting.
posted by shelleycat at 9:39 AM on March 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
Yes, exactly. At this point in time having the Union Jack, aka flag of a totally different country, stuck onto our flag is frankly just embarrassing, it's that stupid. But the alternative we've ended up with is so clunky and doesn't quite gel, I don't see how it can be chosen as a better alternative. But if we don't change it now we won't get another chance any time soon, if ever. I'm quite torn about which one to vote for, assuming my voting papers arrive in time (the last ones did, she'll be right mate).
It also turns out I really really don't care about the opinions of non-NZers on this matter, like at all. Which I didn't know before so that's mildly interesting.
posted by shelleycat at 9:39 AM on March 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
Is it possible that intentionally clunky designs are being pushed so the whole thing just fizzles away?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:42 AM on March 3, 2016
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:42 AM on March 3, 2016
I'm in Hawai'i right now and it's striking to see the Union Jack flying over American soil. But there's a proud and interesting history there. I'm a little surprised New Zealand would consider removing it entirely.
OTOH that fern is so lovely. I'm sad one of the designs featuring just a fern didn't make it.
posted by Nelson at 9:43 AM on March 3, 2016
OTOH that fern is so lovely. I'm sad one of the designs featuring just a fern didn't make it.
posted by Nelson at 9:43 AM on March 3, 2016
Is it possible that intentionally clunky designs are being pushed so the whole thing just fizzles away?
Some people think so. I don't.
posted by shelleycat at 10:03 AM on March 3, 2016
Some people think so. I don't.
posted by shelleycat at 10:03 AM on March 3, 2016
Rather than showing the goofy laser-eyed non-contenders, I wish they'd show the 40 that were shortlisted.
posted by jetsetsc at 10:23 AM on March 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by jetsetsc at 10:23 AM on March 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Huh. The longlist of 40 has some more appealing color combos... I think the silver fern option with a red space in the upper left (fifth row down, fifth one over) looks more balanced than the black that was ultimately selected, but I guess it might look a little too reminiscent of the NBA logo.
Frankly, I find the migrant bird option most striking, but I guess it never had a chance.
posted by psoas at 10:36 AM on March 3, 2016
Frankly, I find the migrant bird option most striking, but I guess it never had a chance.
posted by psoas at 10:36 AM on March 3, 2016
At this point in time having the Union Jack, aka flag of a totally different country, stuck onto our flag is frankly just embarrassing, it's that stupid.
Here in the US we not only think it is OK to have another country's flag as part of our state flags, it can even be a country that went to war with us!
posted by TedW at 10:49 AM on March 3, 2016
Here in the US we not only think it is OK to have another country's flag as part of our state flags, it can even be a country that went to war with us!
posted by TedW at 10:49 AM on March 3, 2016
I gave my vote to my 12 year old as I thought she should have a voice in this farce too, but, sigh, she voted the wrong way...
We were having an interesting discussion last night about the significance of the southern cross and how possessive New Zealanders feel about it, both on the flag and in the sky. I can see a case for retaining that part of the flag at least. However, I am against changing the flag for the purposes design, much as I would like to change it, because the whole thing is too much of a vanity legacy project for John Key.
posted by Miss Otis' Egrets at 11:21 AM on March 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
We were having an interesting discussion last night about the significance of the southern cross and how possessive New Zealanders feel about it, both on the flag and in the sky. I can see a case for retaining that part of the flag at least. However, I am against changing the flag for the purposes design, much as I would like to change it, because the whole thing is too much of a vanity legacy project for John Key.
posted by Miss Otis' Egrets at 11:21 AM on March 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
I really like the proposed new flag. It'll be interesting to see which way the vote goes, although admittedly I don't know the first thing about New Zealand politics.
No country should have a flag that a kindergartener can't draw.
I grew up in Wales, and can dimly remember primary (elementary) school art lessons spent trying to draw passable Welsh flags in preparation for St David's Day.
Interestingly though, while there is one version of the dragon that gets used on all the official flags, technically any picture that fits the description (red dragon, passant, on a green and white field) can be a proper Welsh flag: the details of the wings, scales, or whatever genuinely don't matter. As opposed to, say, the Union flag, which must meet very precisely defined proportions and angles, or the US flag which of course has exact numbers of stars and stripes. There's a specific name for that kind of flag -- where it has to be a picture of the right thing, but not necessarily the right picture of the right thing -- but I'm damned if I can remember it. Presumably some hangover from familial heraldic devices, in which some artistic license was accepted.
So presumably New Zealand could choose to do the same thing with their fern -- the exact sweep and number of leaves don't matter, as long as it looks about right.
posted by metaBugs at 11:34 AM on March 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
No country should have a flag that a kindergartener can't draw.
I grew up in Wales, and can dimly remember primary (elementary) school art lessons spent trying to draw passable Welsh flags in preparation for St David's Day.
Interestingly though, while there is one version of the dragon that gets used on all the official flags, technically any picture that fits the description (red dragon, passant, on a green and white field) can be a proper Welsh flag: the details of the wings, scales, or whatever genuinely don't matter. As opposed to, say, the Union flag, which must meet very precisely defined proportions and angles, or the US flag which of course has exact numbers of stars and stripes. There's a specific name for that kind of flag -- where it has to be a picture of the right thing, but not necessarily the right picture of the right thing -- but I'm damned if I can remember it. Presumably some hangover from familial heraldic devices, in which some artistic license was accepted.
So presumably New Zealand could choose to do the same thing with their fern -- the exact sweep and number of leaves don't matter, as long as it looks about right.
posted by metaBugs at 11:34 AM on March 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
FFFM: Is it possible that intentionally clunky designs are being pushed so the whole thing just fizzles away?
I'd say that's incredibly unlikely; the whole flag change project is being driven by the Prime Minister, so you'd assume that he'd want the best possible flags chosen for the shortlist (and he was publicly in favour of a silver fern design from the start).
posted by Pink Frost at 12:50 PM on March 3, 2016
I'd say that's incredibly unlikely; the whole flag change project is being driven by the Prime Minister, so you'd assume that he'd want the best possible flags chosen for the shortlist (and he was publicly in favour of a silver fern design from the start).
posted by Pink Frost at 12:50 PM on March 3, 2016
"...he was publicly in favour of a silver fern design from the start"
So I guess it's not surprising that it and an identical version with a different colour palette were on the short list. Something about that doesn't seem quite right.
posted by howling fantods at 1:43 PM on March 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
So I guess it's not surprising that it and an identical version with a different colour palette were on the short list. Something about that doesn't seem quite right.
posted by howling fantods at 1:43 PM on March 3, 2016 [2 favorites]
What happened to the one with the big red triangle?
It enjoyed a wonderful groundswell of popular support but lost out in the first referendum (arguably because having two practically identical options in a STV format effectively made the outcome something of a foregone conclusion).
But for those of us who bought 'Red Peak' flags, stickers and embroidered patches, it will always have a fond place in our hearts. And perhaps, after the second referendum chooses to keep the existing flag, in another 10 or 15 years we can have another crack at a change, this time with a less ham-fisted process.
posted by Soulfather at 2:16 PM on March 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
It enjoyed a wonderful groundswell of popular support but lost out in the first referendum (arguably because having two practically identical options in a STV format effectively made the outcome something of a foregone conclusion).
But for those of us who bought 'Red Peak' flags, stickers and embroidered patches, it will always have a fond place in our hearts. And perhaps, after the second referendum chooses to keep the existing flag, in another 10 or 15 years we can have another crack at a change, this time with a less ham-fisted process.
posted by Soulfather at 2:16 PM on March 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
I liked red peak. I would have voted for it. I'm kind of meh about the new proposed one. It looks like a corporate logo, the silver fern to me is mostly a symbol that's been coopted by sports that o don't care about much, and I think it makes us look like a country sadly lacking in graphic designers.
But I was surprised that having the two colourways in the final four didn't split the vote of the people who liked that design too much. I thought for sure that would make the fern unviable.
posted by lollusc at 2:27 PM on March 3, 2016
But I was surprised that having the two colourways in the final four didn't split the vote of the people who liked that design too much. I thought for sure that would make the fern unviable.
posted by lollusc at 2:27 PM on March 3, 2016
The downside to Gaddafi losing power was that we lost our only solid color flag. I was hoping that NZ would fix that with the all-black, but I guess that was never really in the running.
posted by ckape at 3:00 PM on March 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ckape at 3:00 PM on March 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
howling fantods: So I guess it's not surprising that it and an identical version with a different colour palette were on the short list. Something about that doesn't seem quite right.
No indeed. To give some background:
Our Prime Minister comes from the National Party (think roughly centre-right, free trade and low tax but not socially illiberal or Trump-crazy). The whole impetus for the flag referendum came from him - it wasn't a grassroots movement, although there are plenty of people who would like to see a new flag. (Note that we have a Citizens-Initiated Referendum process that would let a popular movement call for a referendum on the issue).
Back in 2014 the PM announced his preference for basically this flag, before the process even started (hat-tip to Russell Brown in a comment on his own blog post). The process itself was widely criticised - a panel was set up to consider proposed flags and to produce a short-list for us to vote on, but the panel had no designers or flag experts and instead had sports and business people.
After the short-list was announced a popular campaign got behind the Red Peak flag, leading to it being added to the short-list. But as others have mentioned, it lost out in the first round of voting.
The real problem with change is it's being driven from above by the PM as he seeks to build a legacy. But his own party's supporters are conservative and unlikely to want a change, whereas those who might want to change are put off by his involvement, by the process, and by the poor design of the proposed new flag. Or as someone else put it:
Equally, for some people the staunch cheerleading from various sports stars is having the opposite of the intended effect.
posted by Pink Frost at 3:59 PM on March 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
No indeed. To give some background:
Our Prime Minister comes from the National Party (think roughly centre-right, free trade and low tax but not socially illiberal or Trump-crazy). The whole impetus for the flag referendum came from him - it wasn't a grassroots movement, although there are plenty of people who would like to see a new flag. (Note that we have a Citizens-Initiated Referendum process that would let a popular movement call for a referendum on the issue).
Back in 2014 the PM announced his preference for basically this flag, before the process even started (hat-tip to Russell Brown in a comment on his own blog post). The process itself was widely criticised - a panel was set up to consider proposed flags and to produce a short-list for us to vote on, but the panel had no designers or flag experts and instead had sports and business people.
After the short-list was announced a popular campaign got behind the Red Peak flag, leading to it being added to the short-list. But as others have mentioned, it lost out in the first round of voting.
The real problem with change is it's being driven from above by the PM as he seeks to build a legacy. But his own party's supporters are conservative and unlikely to want a change, whereas those who might want to change are put off by his involvement, by the process, and by the poor design of the proposed new flag. Or as someone else put it:
Even if I thought the new flag was the bestest thing ever, I'd still vote for the current one to discomfit Key.... I'd imagine maybe a third of the electorate think that way. Then, you've got probably half the right-wing vote who are inveterate conservatives ("'we' killed lots of foreigners under that flag and hope to kill lots more").
Equally, for some people the staunch cheerleading from various sports stars is having the opposite of the intended effect.
posted by Pink Frost at 3:59 PM on March 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Eventually, one will be able to date flag designs to before/after the discovery of Bézier curves and invention of CNC fabric-cutting machines by whether they have lines that aren't straight or simple curves in them.
Then someone will invent robust flexible RGB displays, and the next split will be still vs. animated flags.
posted by acb at 4:18 PM on March 3, 2016
Then someone will invent robust flexible RGB displays, and the next split will be still vs. animated flags.
posted by acb at 4:18 PM on March 3, 2016
There are several other ways to determine when flags were designed.
posted by ckape at 4:27 PM on March 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ckape at 4:27 PM on March 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
The totally embarrassing thing is that polls show the old flag winning handily over the new one. Which is such an utter disappointment for me. I've been trying my best on twitter to campaign for the new flag, but there are a number of people whom I'd otherwise respect saying they'll vote for the old one. Beyond the stamp of British colonialism on it, there are so many other reasons to change it. The new flag has plenty of celebrity support, but my personal feeling is that a large enough chunk of NZ is still living with its head stuck in the'70s.
But honestly, this link more than any other is the one that cemented my feelings on the subject.
posted by Metro Gnome at 5:50 PM on March 3, 2016
But honestly, this link more than any other is the one that cemented my feelings on the subject.
posted by Metro Gnome at 5:50 PM on March 3, 2016
I generally like the new design, in theory, but something about it is bugging me, and I think maybe it's that Maryland is the only flag that's allowed to have more than three colors on it.
posted by Navelgazer at 7:28 PM on March 3, 2016
posted by Navelgazer at 7:28 PM on March 3, 2016
Navelgazer, the Republic of South Africa flag breaks your rule quite nicely.
posted by wilful at 12:24 AM on March 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by wilful at 12:24 AM on March 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Wish I'd have registered to vote on this ... new design needed but this is not it
posted by doogyrev at 1:03 AM on March 4, 2016
posted by doogyrev at 1:03 AM on March 4, 2016
Expat Kiwi here, though one who probably isn't eligible to vote in this farrago. The proposed new flag depresses me for many of the reasons outlined above. It's politically tainted by its close association with the current Prime Minister (NZ journalist Finlay MacDonald does a good job here explaining why). It's visually incompetent, resembling more the logo of a minor government department (or worse, something designed by Murray) than an actual flag. It is, as Russell Brown puts it in the link posted above by Pink Frost, a perfect encapsulation of the mediocrity and empty, brand-focussed neoliberalism of the current political regime in New Zealand. It's redolent of empty corporate ideas like "excellence," "innovation," and "export-led recovery." Neoliberalism on a stick.
More than that, though, there's an element of historical denialism in (some) white New Zealanders' anxiety to distance themselves from the Union Jack that I find disquieting. It encapsulates the fantasy of reinvention, neogenesis, leaving the past behind. But New Zealand still remains a former British settler colony and its founding document remains an agreement between Maori and the British Crown. Changing the flag, like the pressure to move to a Republic, seems to me bound up with the same eagerness on behalf of many Pakeha to deny the reality of their own situatedness within colonialism and within history.
posted by Sonny Jim at 1:40 AM on March 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
More than that, though, there's an element of historical denialism in (some) white New Zealanders' anxiety to distance themselves from the Union Jack that I find disquieting. It encapsulates the fantasy of reinvention, neogenesis, leaving the past behind. But New Zealand still remains a former British settler colony and its founding document remains an agreement between Maori and the British Crown. Changing the flag, like the pressure to move to a Republic, seems to me bound up with the same eagerness on behalf of many Pakeha to deny the reality of their own situatedness within colonialism and within history.
posted by Sonny Jim at 1:40 AM on March 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
The reason why the 'red peak' flag looks like it is a corporate logo is because it is a corporate logo, ripped off and mildly changed from an American engineering firm. Fortunately it came last in the referendum and frankly I'm confused that anyone thought it was a viable option. Including someone else's flag in ours like they still own us or something is bad enough, using our country's flag to advertise a foreign company is plain ridiculous.
posted by shelleycat at 4:43 AM on March 4, 2016
posted by shelleycat at 4:43 AM on March 4, 2016
Sonny Jim: The proposed new flag depresses me for many of the reasons outlined above. It's politically tainted by its close association with the current Prime Minister (NZ journalist Finlay MacDonald does a good job here explaining why). It's visually incompetent, resembling more the logo of a minor government department (or worse, something designed by Murray) than an actual flag. It is, as Russell Brown puts it in the link posted above by Pink Frost, a perfect encapsulation of the mediocrity and empty, brand-focussed neoliberalism of the current political regime in New Zealand. ... More than that, though, there's an element of historical denialism in (some) white New Zealanders' anxiety to distance themselves from the Union Jack that I find disquieting.
We in Canada had many of the same arguments when we changed our flag. (What could be better than a Great Canadian Flag Debate?) Consider, for example, that we got a flag which is all red, the colour of the ruling Liberal Party, and you can image the depth of acrimony it aroused.
posted by clawsoon at 8:19 AM on March 4, 2016
We in Canada had many of the same arguments when we changed our flag. (What could be better than a Great Canadian Flag Debate?) Consider, for example, that we got a flag which is all red, the colour of the ruling Liberal Party, and you can image the depth of acrimony it aroused.
posted by clawsoon at 8:19 AM on March 4, 2016
Yeah, but at least you got a cool flag out of it.
posted by Miss Otis' Egrets at 3:39 PM on March 4, 2016
posted by Miss Otis' Egrets at 3:39 PM on March 4, 2016
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posted by clawsoon at 7:48 AM on March 3, 2016 [7 favorites]