12 Things About Being A Woman That Women Won't Tell You
March 9, 2016 2:23 PM   Subscribe

"​Hey, I'm not going to womansplain feminism to the readers of Esquire! That's not happening on my watch! You're sophisticated, 21st century men with a copy of the El Bulli cookbook, a timeless pair of investment brogues and a couple of Joni Mitchell albums — for when you want to sit in your leather armchair, and have a little, noble, necessary man-cry." [slEsquire, Caitlin Moran]
posted by katrielalex (96 comments total) 48 users marked this as a favorite
 
We're not wise, or in touch with nature, or down with it. We're just people with a whole load more laundry issues than you.

I love her.
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:29 PM on March 9, 2016 [21 favorites]


It actually was us that threw those horrible old trainers of yours away.

It's true that no woman has ever told me this before, so I guess that's good. The other 11 things (well, maybe not the carbs one) I have been told by women, in many forums, but it's not a bad list, and it's worth repeating. Also, this was written for Esquire, so perhaps the audience could use some more telling. It's not like it could hurt.
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:30 PM on March 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


And I think it was written in a really funny, down-to-earth way that a lot of guys (Lads, surely. So many new and fun Britishisms in there.) will be able to really hear it.
posted by Rock Steady at 2:37 PM on March 9, 2016


Similarly, when we talk about the patriarchy, that's not you, either. You're not the patriarchy. You're just… Patrick.

I know I don't have the rarest first name in the world, but still, that one freaked me right out a little bit.
posted by supercres at 2:38 PM on March 9, 2016 [48 favorites]


What's a chihauhau?
posted by RogerB at 2:42 PM on March 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


20 pounds, same as in town.
posted by team lowkey at 2:44 PM on March 9, 2016 [82 favorites]


The cognitive dissonance of having something womansplained to me in response to a bit of unsolicited advice I gave on Facebook a week ago really threw me for a loop. On the one hand, I was apologetic about the terse way I suggested a person not publish their email address in comments, offering to save my tears in a vial for her to drink later, and on the other hand, gender was irrelevant in the comment. I would've said it to a dude just as easily. I grew up with 3 sisters and no brothers, and currently live with my wife and 2 daughters - hell, even my cats are female...so on the one hand, I am sympathetic, and on the other, it bugs me that I got lumped into the patriarchy or whatever...and the internal conflict is that my being annoyed by her response is man tears. It's all so confusing.
posted by Chuffy at 2:45 PM on March 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


I say fuck Caitlin Moran because of how she mocks and ridicules women in fandom while presenting herself as a feminist.
posted by chonus at 2:48 PM on March 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


I'm glad she clarified about the (lack of) penis burning. So important.
posted by emjaybee at 2:48 PM on March 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


eyes Night Ride Home CD
posted by thelonius at 2:51 PM on March 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


God forbid you have to date a non-alpha female. Those females suuuuuck, and we should devalue them.
posted by radicalawyer at 2:53 PM on March 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


RogerB: "What's a chihauhau?"

This.
posted by Splunge at 2:54 PM on March 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


So, when women talk about "The Man", we're not talking about you. You're just a man. You're not The Man.

Hari Kondabolu has a funny bit where he explains when he talks about white people he's not talking about most of the white people that come to his show but "you know, White People," and "for the sake of clarity, I'll just call them white demons from now on."

And I get why Kondabolu and Moran feel the need to make these pre-explanations, because #NotAllMen is a super common impulse that I used to get too. When people are shooting at a broad category of people that includes you, it certainly feels like they're shooting at you. But at a certain point you have to be like, this clearly isn't about me personally and I should just let the conversation go forward.
posted by john-a-dreams at 3:05 PM on March 9, 2016 [27 favorites]


"We're scared. We don't want to mention it, because it's kind of a bummer, chat-wise all that ever does is make a whole bunch of men to tell us that it's unreasonable for us to be scared, but also hey, maybe we should start carrying a gun, and we'd really like to talk about stuff that makes us happy, like look at our daughters — and we can't help but think, "Which one of us? And when?" We walk down the street at night with our keys clutched between our fingers, as a weapon because if something bad happens to us, the first thing everyone will want to know is why we failed to protect ourselves. We move in packs — because it's safer if something bad happens to us, the next thing everyone will want to know is why we were stupid/careless enough to walk around alone. We talk to each other for hours on the phone — to share knowledge. But we don't want to go on about it to you, because that would be morbid almost certainly result in you telling us to buck up -- I mean, after all, most men aren't dangerous, including you, and besides, all legitimately dangerous men are obviously avoidable because they wear bright red t-shirts that say "NO! STAY AWAY!" on them, which is why you just can't imagine the real reason women insist on acting so worried so much of the time."
posted by amnesia and magnets at 3:12 PM on March 9, 2016 [49 favorites]


I adore her. I want to print out the Abortion one and nail it to lamp posts. And I also want 'Thou Shalt Buff Your Fnuh' as a tattoo.
posted by billiebee at 3:24 PM on March 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yeah "Thou shalt Buff your fnuh." had me laughing.
posted by Max Power at 3:31 PM on March 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


I could do without the biological determinism (e.g. having a period as being a "defining experience" of womanhood) running throughout the piece ... OP, maybe next time consider include a content note for trans folks?
posted by zebra at 3:31 PM on March 9, 2016 [8 favorites]




Mansplain says simply: women are still, after all the feminism, not making the same money in the workplace as men make...if that does not change, nothing else will change much either.
posted by Postroad at 3:43 PM on March 9, 2016


ew no caitlin moran although moment of ironic amusement that she is the feminist esquire gives an article
posted by beefetish at 3:44 PM on March 9, 2016 [9 favorites]


Tits McGee
...Of the Illinois McGees?
posted by metaBugs at 3:53 PM on March 9, 2016 [18 favorites]


This is great, thanks for sharing.

it bugs me that I got lumped into the patriarchy or whatever...and the internal conflict is that my being annoyed by her response is man tears. It's all so confusing.

I can't really tell if your whole comment is serious or not, but assuming it is, she does kind of talk about this in the article:

We're tired. So, so tired. From the moment we grew our tits, we've been cat-called in the street; commented on by relatives ("Ooooh, she's big-boned"; "Well, you'll be a heart-breaker") as if we weren't standing there in front of them, hearing all this. We've seen our biggest female role-models and icons shamed in the press, over and over: computers hacked and nude pictures released; sex-tapes released. So we know even success, and money, will not protect us from the humiliation of simply being a woman. We know we must have our babies when we're young — the eggs are running out! — but we must also work for less money, as discussed above. So that makes us tired.

This is why, maybe, women can become suddenly furious — why online discussions about feminism suddenly ignite into rage. Tired, scared people are apt to lash out. Anger is just fear, brought to the boil.


I understand that you may feel you're being unfairly targeted, but if I'm a woman who is saying something and a guy comes along with unsolicited advice, I have no idea who you are or what your intentions are. To me, you're just another guy in a pretty much constant stream of guys explaining things to me. Being reminded over and over that the default assumption is that I don't know what I'm doing or talking about gets tiring after while. I understand that guys probably don't intend to do this and some days I'm more tolerant, forgiving and accommodating of this than I can be on others. I think it's good that, if someone lashes out at you in this way and you feel you're being unfairly lumped in with a group, to try and remember where she might be coming from and how often she really has to deal with this.
posted by triggerfinger at 4:13 PM on March 9, 2016 [44 favorites]


When people are shooting at a broad category of people that includes you, it certainly feels like they're shooting at you. But at a certain point you have to be like, this clearly isn't about me personally and I should just let the conversation go forward.

No. The onus is on the people shooting at an entire group to make it very clear that they're criticizing systemic issues and not individuals. Your statement would never fly here with regard to any group except men, white people, cis people, etc. I know the standard justification--they're majority groups that benefit from structural power, so their individuals should just be more thick-skinned. This completely ignores intersectionality. What should a black man, or trans man, think about shit like #KillAllMen? "Don't worry, we're against racism and transphobia--we support assaulting you for an entirely different reason!"
posted by Rangi at 4:14 PM on March 9, 2016 [21 favorites]


Tits McGee
...Of the Illinois McGees?


No, Eyebrow's are up here
posted by infini at 4:20 PM on March 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


Sort of relevant to the bit about clothing (ugh! clothing!): I've had a few dresses & tops that I describe as "Tits McGee" because of how they're cut. MY CLEAVAGE, LET ME INTRODUCE YOU TO IT. (sigh. those are always such pretty clothes, too.)
posted by epersonae at 4:24 PM on March 9, 2016


Alright I am probably going to regret saying this but I like Caitlin Moran and don't think the Lena Dunham tweet thing or the slashfic thing are all that bad. It's kinda weird to see her getting dismissed over that.
posted by Hoopo at 4:25 PM on March 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


"I don't have anything to wear!"? Obviously we have things to wear. You can see all the shit from where you are standing, fully dressed, ready to leave the house. What we mean is, "I don't have anything to wear for who I need to be today."

Finally, someone articulated it!
posted by redsparkler at 4:26 PM on March 9, 2016 [39 favorites]


There's so many things to dislike! Mine's the transphobia.

I am trying not to completely do the baby/bathwater thing that the internet is so good at, especially as I think Moran does a really good job - when she doesn't do it at the expense of a marginalized Other - of putting important concepts in really grabbable ways that are funny enough to help them stick. I would love to see her evolve to the discovery of intersectional* trans-inclusive feminism, but she has historically seemed inclined to double-down and that's too bad.

*Also I'd forgotten until I re-read the "why I didn't publish the Caitlin Moran interview" link above from Bitch Magazine that the New Statesman came out on this issue against intersectional feminism.
posted by Lyn Never at 4:31 PM on March 9, 2016 [16 favorites]


We masturbate as much as you do.

I just had to google that. This is the best result of the few that I dared open at work: This is how often women masturbate.
posted by kanewai at 4:33 PM on March 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Can someone explain the "CLUNGE" thing to me?

vaginas are having a hard time anyway, what with all the waxing they get


Sounds like someone needs an anatomy lesson.
posted by HiroProtagonist at 4:35 PM on March 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Clunge. But it isn't hard to figure out from context - what else would Moran be taking a man to task for shrieking at a group of schoolgirls?
posted by gingerest at 4:38 PM on March 9, 2016


I just had to google that. This is the best result of the few that I dared open at work: This is how often women masturbate.

Yeah, as that link shows it's just flat-out false that women masturbate as much as men. It's fine to try to get society to accept that masturbation is a normal thing for women to do, but this need to pretend that rates or frequency are equal is odd.

Women just don't do it as often as men, anyone who thinks they do has no conception of how often men do it.
posted by Sangermaine at 4:44 PM on March 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


I think it's good that, if someone lashes out at you in this way and you feel you're being unfairly lumped in with a group, to try and remember where she might be coming from and how often she really has to deal with this.

triggerfinger:
I apologized for the condescension, recognized that, despite my intent being otherwise, that she had a point, and made a joke to her about my man tears. My comment above was serious - it's hard to explain. Maybe the closest I can come is comparing it to white guilt? I said something to her, she fired it back in my face (literally started her comment with "Let me womansplain something to you,"), and politely suggested I fuck off without actually saying it.

Defensive me wanted to fire right back at her. Man-tears-awareness me opted for an apology and a joke about my man tears. Feminist me felt bad about defensive me's internal dialogue, knowing that what I was feeling was probably the reason she responded the way she did, considering she has to deal with this type of crap on a daily basis. Needing-to-be-right me discovered that I was, in fact, right about my unsolicited advice, and stalker me (there is no such me, but I wanted to see if I had a point, so I went to the Google) could've done what IT guy me was warning her about in the first place. Letting her know that my unsolicited advice was accurate isn't the point, and rubbing it in would not help. I just don't like what happened, because a significant portion of my life has been personally, professionally and socially being an advocate for women, as much of a feminist as I can be without being female. Nobody likes to be punished for the actions of others, but considering my white, cis male, middle-aged, hetero upper middle class standing, I know better than to get worked up about it. Sometimes, you just gotta take the lumps. Like I said, it's all confusing - maybe ironic is a better word...damned if you do, damned if you don't and frankly, I knew enough to back off. We would and could be good friends, she and I, but I am more upset that I came across as someone who needed womansplaining in the first place. C'est la vie.
posted by Chuffy at 4:49 PM on March 9, 2016 [1 favorite]



Women just don't do it as often as men, anyone who thinks they do has no conception of how often men do it.


Those stats are self reported, and there's societal bias in how women self report sexual activity v men.
posted by zutalors! at 4:51 PM on March 9, 2016 [21 favorites]


"Vaginas are having a hard time anyway, what with all the waxing they get. (That's £20 a pop, my friend. Every single month. Just to feel normal."

1. The vagina is internal and I certainly hope never gets waxed!
2. Normalizing the obligation to participate in that particular torture ritual is about as opposite of feminist as you can get.
posted by mysterious_stranger at 4:54 PM on March 9, 2016 [31 favorites]


Let me google that for you = let me man/womansplain that to you, without the gender-specificity but with the snarky attitude?
posted by Chuffy at 4:55 PM on March 9, 2016 [2 favorites]


Okay, so finally the thread wherein to post my not actually facetious question. Which of the following, and in what proportions, does "pussy" include: vagina, clitoris, vulva, uh, clunge, 'fanny', etc. In short, WHAT IS THE PUSSY?

A Venn diagram would be great, but nothing too graphic, strictly circles, because there are young people on this weblog.
posted by Zerowensboring at 4:58 PM on March 9, 2016 [4 favorites]


Man, I really miss those trainers...
posted by Greg_Ace at 5:03 PM on March 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


I'm not sure on what she would need to do here to include intersectional trans-inclusive feminism. She has her own experience and I don't believe it has anything to do with living a trans experience. So what would she even have to say about it? It seems the only way would be to continuously have parenthetical statements about it or have every essay be a group essay.
posted by sfkiddo at 5:04 PM on March 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


1. The vagina is internal and I certainly hope never gets waxed!

"Waxing," in colloquial terms, can mean "Have sex with." Example: Wax that ass! This phrase does not indicate an act of applying wax to the buttocks of a woman for the purposes of hair removal. So, to correct your statement, it would be unfortunate to hope someone's vagina never gets waxed, assuming sexual congress is something you would approve of...
posted by Chuffy at 5:05 PM on March 9, 2016


Yep. No masturbating going on here at the Ladies' Auxiliary Bonnet and Tea Society. :: kicks Hitachis under doily-encrusted table::
posted by Kitty Stardust at 5:11 PM on March 9, 2016 [15 favorites]


I think you're mansplaining again. :)
posted by nobody at 5:11 PM on March 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


As a dude, I appreciate it when a woman takes time to share things about being a woman I may not have known, or thought much about, especially the "everyday" stuff. At the same time, I recognize she is going to be speaking from her and possibly her friend's experiences, and they aren't necessarily universal, but it's still interesting and valuable.

I am also secure enough to recognize when a woman talks about "men", she is probably not referring specifically to me--though it is an excellent opportunity to make sure she's not by examining my own behavior/beliefs/attitudes vis a vis whatever is being criticized.

(In this comment thread, I'm personally discounting every criticism by men. We have literally nothing to contribute in that regard.)
posted by maxwelton at 5:17 PM on March 9, 2016 [14 favorites]


I am perfectly willing to dismiss her over the carbs thing. Sorry, I have strong feelings about this.
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:25 PM on March 9, 2016


So what would she even have to say about it?

Slurs, repeatedly insisting that one must have a vagina to be a woman (which she does again in this particular piece), being very uninterested in hearing any sort of correction or suggestion she not do that. That's what she has to say about it, and has for years.
posted by Lyn Never at 5:35 PM on March 9, 2016 [18 favorites]


That masturbation chart actually makes it look like there's not a huge difference between men and women. I assume there are more women who would if they hadn't been socialized not to, and more women who are embarrassed to say that they do, but even if neither of those were true, relatively similar.
posted by stoneandstar at 5:59 PM on March 9, 2016


And regardless of the rate (because frequency of masturbation actually doesn't have anything to do with sexual desire or how powerful it is or how it manifests), this is so very true:

I'm gonna be honest with you — for the first five years of my adult life, most of my decisions were made by the contents of my pants. My vagina was — by way of Audrey II in Little Shop Of Horrors — constantly shouting "Feed me!", and breaking into musical numbers when I was trying to listen to my brain instead. If I had not discovered masturbation, I would have spent the majority of my time sitting on shed roofs, like a cat on heat, yowling at the moon. If a young woman isn't to go mad, then masturbation is a needful hobby, as vital as going on long country walks, to get a bit of air in your lungs, and pursuing the revolution. And what a hobby it is! It doesn't cost anything, it doesn't make you fat, you can knock it off in five minutes flat if you think about Han Solo, or some monkeys "doing it" on an Attenborough documentary, and it means you can face the world with a kind of stoned, post-coital cheerfulness that would otherwise require Valium, or constant spa-breaks.

Sometimes I wonder if half the "bad decisions" we attribute to young women for reasons of narcissism or vanity or blindness to male mistreatment are just manifestations of sexual desire under patriarchy, where women express desire by attempting to make themselves more abject and/or desirable.
posted by stoneandstar at 6:03 PM on March 9, 2016 [21 favorites]


I liked this:

Men, imagine if, some time around your 12th birthday, some manner of viscous liquid — let's say gravy — suddenly appeared in your pants, in the middle of a maths lesson.

I've always understood there is never just one "Feminism," there are multiple "feminisms," as many feminisms as there are women or people on the planet. We all get to define who we are.

So Caitlin Moran isn't going to womansplain feminism, just her own unique interpretation of it.
posted by My Dad at 6:08 PM on March 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


It's articles like this that make me realize that, while being a gay man has complicated my life in some pretty significant ways, it has enormously simplified it in others, too.

Gay relationships are a huge challenge in our society, no doubt. But I can't imagine the complexity of trying to navigate the fraught Mars-vs-Venus dynamics of a hetero relationship, given the systemic, societal impact of patriarchy, and the implications of feminism.

Kudos to you folks that do, but it honestly sounds exhausting.
posted by darkstar at 6:19 PM on March 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


repeatedly insisting that one must have a vagina to be a woman (which she does again in this particular piece)

By talking about periods and abortion?
posted by sfkiddo at 6:22 PM on March 9, 2016


Hey Chuffy, I get it. It can be confusing. I've also had to face a lot of confusion and discomfort over the years as I've had to confront the various privileges that I hold as a cis, white, middle-class woman. It can be hard, but I think it's worth it to try to work through the discomfort to get to a place of better understanding. I am still doing this and think (hope) that I'll always be willing to do it.

The single best thing I've learned about how to be an ally is to just try to listen to people. Especially if the person is saying something that makes it seem that they might think there's some kind of -ism at play. Even if I disagree. If someone is talking about experiences that I could never understand because I am not a member of the group to which they're referring, it's really, really good to just bite my tongue and listen and try to understand where they're coming from. And from my perspective, when I find a man who is willing to just listen to me talk about the kind of stuff I, as a woman, have to deal with all the time and how it makes me feel without explaining, getting defensive, being dismissive or treating me like I'm hysterical/overreacting; it's honestly like the heavens open and the angels sing because it's so rare. It's a little weird to me how rare it is (though I'm not really going around and talking to every man I encounter about sexism). It actually means more to me than I can adequately express. And if I can turn around and make someone else's burden a little easier (or at the very least, not add to it) by leaving plenty of room for other people's voices and experiences, then I want to do it. Because I know how much it means to me.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:22 PM on March 9, 2016 [12 favorites]


For something that has pretensions of telling men what it's like to be a woman, I sure as hell don't recognize much of myself in this article.

Like, I get the conceit--this is an article about what it's like to be Moran, and what her feminism is shaped by. But there's so much language about women in general, like we're all clones of Moran.

I get really irritated by stuff like this. And I think it's because, essentially, I want to be thought of as a person first, and a woman second (or third, or not at all). Women are just as varied as men are and anything that seeks to explain "women" just props up the tendency to think of women as a special, separate class of people different than the male audience.

Explain a feminist point of view, of course. Explain the special challenges that women face, most definitely. Explain women? No. You can't do that any more than you can explain men.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 6:46 PM on March 9, 2016 [32 favorites]


Okay, fine, it's not a vagina but kind of area around the vulva. It was still hilarious, and there is still a shit ton of societal pressure to wax it. I'm sure she knows where the vagina is, we don't need to laugh at her for a convenient shortcut.
posted by corb at 6:48 PM on March 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


She said she did not give a shit about why no POC were in Girls. Then Bitch magazine decided not to run an interview with her based on the fact that she wouldn't be bullied into saying something she didn't mean. The reasoning presented in that piece was that she would not respond to her "critics".


This is where -ism's fall down for me. We have demanded for years that women have the right to speak their mind- as long as it's a mind we agree with.
posted by LuckyMonkey21 at 7:13 PM on March 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


This is where -ism's fall down for me. We have demanded for years that women have the right to speak their mind- as long as it's a mind we agree with.

Isms don't fall down. Intersectionality is a thing.
posted by zutalors! at 7:15 PM on March 9, 2016 [15 favorites]


Mod note: Couple comments deleted. If you know nothing about, or don't understand, the politics of what's essential-to-womanhood vs. trans women's experience, please go read all about it elsewhere instead of making people here explain it. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 7:15 PM on March 9, 2016 [13 favorites]


Intersectionality is a thing -

so does that mean that every article written by every woman about anything woman related has to include everyone ever? Because that is what I am hearing. And "A thing" implies that it's a fashionable stance to take-to avoid hurting feelings and making enemies.
posted by LuckyMonkey21 at 7:21 PM on March 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


This is where -ism's fall down for me. We have demanded for years that women have the right to speak their mind- as long as it's a mind we agree with.

Strangely, women as a group are not exempt from the "don't be an arsehole" standards we hold everyone to, no. Being a woman does not give you license to be transphobic or racist, much as being trans or a PoC does not give you license to be misogynistic. Even if you have legit been silenced all your life (which Moran personally certainly has not!) it doesn't mean it's cool to participate in the silencing of others.
posted by Dysk at 7:22 PM on March 9, 2016 [29 favorites]


so does that mean that every article written by every woman about anything woman related has to include everyone ever? Because that is what I am hearing.

Then you're not listening. It doesn't have to include everyone, but should perhaps take care to not explicitly exclude people, and certainly not take care to explicitly exclude (as is Moran's habit, in both this piece and countless others).
posted by Dysk at 7:24 PM on March 9, 2016 [21 favorites]


And "A thing" implies that it's a fashionable stance to take-to avoid hurting feelings and making enemies.

No, it doesn't mean it's "fashionable." It means it exists, and if intersectionality is not addressed people are going to point that out.

Some people here are not white cis women, so it's not about "fashion" or "gold stars" or "points" it's about lived experience.

You can't opt out of feminism or other "isms" because you don't like that more women want an equal voice.
posted by zutalors! at 7:28 PM on March 9, 2016 [8 favorites]


Are we pissed at Moran for this piece or just her whole body of work? Because this piece seems pretty innocuous and fuck-yeah ladies - if anyone left out, it seems unintentional - and would be fun to talk about, but I'm not familiar with any of her other shit.
posted by corb at 7:28 PM on March 9, 2016 [6 favorites]


so does that mean that every article written by every woman about anything woman related has to include everyone ever? Because that is what I am hearing.

Feminist articles should be written in ways that do not exclude people who have historically not been considered as womanly as white, able-bodied, cis, straight, feminine women.

Because y'know. Women who aren't white, able-bodied, cis, straight, and feminine are women too.

It's a pretty straightforward concept.
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:29 PM on March 9, 2016 [27 favorites]


That's a tough nut for a humor writer to crack; I can't think of one other than Roxanne Gay -- and she's not really a humor writer-- who's good at it.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:33 PM on March 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Feminist articles should be written in ways that do not exclude people who have historically not been considered as womanly as white, able-bodied, cis, straight, feminine women.

Again, there is a demand that she write in a specific way. Nothing in the article I read implied that specific people are not women. She wrote about her lived experience and it was a piece of fluff for a magazine that paid her. How many men's articles are taken to task for this ? Not nearly as many as I see in the feminist blogosphere.
posted by LuckyMonkey21 at 7:35 PM on March 9, 2016 [16 favorites]


Are we pissed at Moran for this piece or just her whole body of work? Because this piece seems pretty innocuous and fuck-yeah ladies - if anyone left out, it seems unintentional - and would be fun to talk about, but I'm not familiar with any of her other shit.

Put it this way - with Moran, you can be damn sure it's not unintentional.
posted by Dysk at 7:35 PM on March 9, 2016 [10 favorites]


Mod note: LuckyMonkey, you may not realize this but this is *really* well-trodden ground for Metafilter, and it's time to let it drop so people don't have to have the same conversation yet again. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 7:41 PM on March 9, 2016 [5 favorites]


triggerfinger: thanks for that. I have listened to you, and I recognize, almost daily, that listening is something I need to work on. For life. I have the responsibility of being a father to two daughters, and I don't take that responsibility lightly...
posted by Chuffy at 7:47 PM on March 9, 2016 [3 favorites]


I see a lot of articles lately where the writing is so clever I can barely follow it. I just assume they aren’t talking to me and I don’t need to worry about it.
posted by bongo_x at 8:41 PM on March 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


Caitlin Moran is a goddamn national treasure and can still be someone who has room to improve.
posted by danhon at 9:01 PM on March 9, 2016 [11 favorites]


(Tongue-in-cheek critique ahead)

My book club read Moran's How to Be a Woman a while back, and while it was largely enjoyable and great to get her perspective, I objected to one thing there that cropped up again here: her use of the word "minge", while explicitly putting down the word "pussy". Like I said then:

a) First off, it's hers, so you (anyone but that woman) don't really have a lot to say about it. Also, Moran objects to the word in part because it's associated with cats. Are you kidding me? If I had a vagina, I would love for it to be associated with cats. Cats don't come when you call, they come to you on their terms. They're mysterious, playful, wise, aloof, loving, unpredictable, proud, etc., etc., etc. Hell, the Egyptians had Bastet, a cat goddess of warfare. That's fucking awesome.
b) Instead of "pussy", she suggests "minge". That is far, far worse; it's one letter off from "mange". Enough said.
posted by Njotr at 9:36 PM on March 9, 2016 [1 favorite]


So, when women talk about "The Man", we're not talking about you. You're just a man. You're not The Man. Similarly, when we talk about the patriarchy, that's not you, either. You're not the patriarchy. You're just… Patrick. When we're doing those "MEN!" chats, we're just identifying the general locus of the problem, ie, most of the power and influence being held by a small amount of men.

Well, maybe she's not talking about you in particular, but I am. Er, that is to say, when I dubbed someone The Man in a tweet recounting a dream the other day, I certainly was referring to a specific man whose trespasses I specifically don't forgive. YMMV.


"I don't have anything to wear!"? Obviously we have things to wear. You can see all the shit from where you are standing, fully dressed, ready to leave the house. What we mean is, "I don't have anything to wear for who I need to be today."

From where I sit, I see three baskets, a closet, shelves, and a dresser full of clothing. But I don't see anything to wear that will make me look how I want to look today, or on the days when my body is retaining water for no good reason. If there were a fashion edition of Maslow's hierarchy of needs, "dressing for who I need to be today" would be way closer to the top of the pyramid than my wardrobe choices are right now.
posted by limeonaire at 10:23 PM on March 9, 2016 [7 favorites]


Wait, she actually advocates for the use of minge as a political statement? What? Why that? I figured it was just some weird British slang she happened to naturally use.
posted by corb at 11:29 PM on March 9, 2016


For something that has pretensions of telling men what it's like to be a woman, I sure as hell don't recognize much of myself in this article.

Thank you. Exactly. Every time I start reading an article explaining "how women are" I 1) start wondering if I've been wrong this while time and am not, in fact, a woman and 2) am sad that all the readers are taking for fact one person's experience as all women's experience.

I don't feel embarrassed by feminism. Don't masturbate as much as I hear many men do. Don't stand in front of my closet for hours. Don't want a man to walk me into planned parenthood. Haven't felt traumatized by my period in decades. Well, ok, that time last summer when I hemorrhaged for 48 hours straight was kind of traumatizing. I'll give the article that one, I guess. But on average? Nah.
posted by greermahoney at 1:04 AM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Feminist articles should be written in ways that do not exclude people who have historically not been considered as womanly as white, able-bodied, cis, straight, feminine women.

I 100% agree with this sentiment. But I don't think this article is a "feminist article". It may be tempting to call it such because Moran claims to be a feminist, but I don't think this article is a "feminist article". She even states she's not going to "womansplain" feminism (while including feminist issues as asides in the intro). But she doesn't linger on those feminist issues. She doesn't really talk about "feminism" as far as I can tell. She is just listing a bunch of stuff she personally identifies with as a woman in her trademark crass and sometimes funny way.

And yeah, the title should have been "12 Things About Being A White, Able Bodied, Straight, Cis Gendered Woman That White, Able Bodied, Straight, Cis Gendered Women Won't Tell You", but it's a fluff piece in Esquire.
posted by like_neon at 2:08 AM on March 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


Caitlin Moran is a goddamn national treasure and can still be someone who has room to improve.

That's a hell of a euphemism for "raging transphobe". Hard to imagine this sort of excuse being made for any other -ism on Mefi.
posted by Dysk at 2:55 AM on March 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


I have a love-hate relationship with Moran. I really enjoyed How to be A Woman--mostly the bits about what it's like to change an infant and how she feels about periods, etc--but it actively angers me that she refuses to be more intersectional. She has an amazingly huge platform--especially if you're familiar with British media outside the UK--and does nothing with it.
posted by Kitteh at 3:45 AM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


Excuse me, I haz a whinge. "Minge" makes me cringe. In addition to evoking "mange" as observed upthread, in my world being mingey is being mean, as in parsimonious. I want this unpleasant term expunged.

*dalek voice* Expunge! Expunge!
posted by valetta at 3:47 AM on March 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


I also have a love-hate relationship with Moran. How to Be a Woman is without a doubt the point where I became comfortable with calling myself a feminist. However, since that time I realise that she's not actually the best model of How to Be a Feminist. But you know, I appreciate her for that too. She is someone (of many) that makes me think critically about feminism and decide for myself where I stand.
posted by like_neon at 4:42 AM on March 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


"12 Things About Being A White, Able Bodied, Straight, Cis Gendered Woman That White, Able Bodied, Straight, Cis Gendered Women Won't Tell You", says like-neon. I agree.

I would add to this ""....being a young, professional, upper middle-class woman with no children."Much of that concerns the author are not top concerns for many of us who do not fit her narrow category of what it means to be a woman.
posted by mermayd at 6:03 AM on March 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


She's not particularly young, she has children. Class is complicated -- I imagine she's rolling in it now, but she grew up in poverty.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:09 AM on March 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


Yeah, IIRC, Moran grew up super poor in a very large family in Wolverhampton. Honestly, the story of how she pulled herself out of poverty is chronicled in How to Be a Woman and is very interesting. Essentially, she became the epitome of "Don't Dream It, Be It" in terms of being a super young rock journalist DIYing--all the while getting harassed and hit on--and eventually parlayed it into the sweet gig she has now. She's married to another rock critic, is older than me (I'm 39), and has two daughters. Again, it's really cool that she decided "fuck it, I am going to be someone I feel is worthwhile and I am doing it by entering a profession that is male-dominated." The fact that she did at like 14 or 15 years old is laudable. For me, it's precisely the poverty and sexism she experienced that makes her lack of intersectionality all the more frustrating. Give back, Moran, but give back to more than your dedicated audience of faithful middle-class white feminists.
posted by Kitteh at 6:16 AM on March 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


That is exactly why it's so frustrating. She's so close, it's such a small step! It's like one of those corporate teambuilding exercises where one person can see* and the other person can use their hands** and they have to make a sandwich together and you're just like, "Caitlin, put the lettuce- no, that's the cheese, get the lettuce, put the lettuce on the- no, don't call it a t-word, just, the lettuce and stop being shitty to people of color DAMN IT THE LETTUCE!"

(*,** itself a pretty ableist teambuilding exercise, but that seems to be true of all teambuilding exercises)
posted by Lyn Never at 7:12 AM on March 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


I don't know why she's going to such lengths to comfort and hand-hold these men while explaining basic things like beauty standards and period blood.

IMO making men feel better about patriarchy is pretty much the foundational pursuit of liberal feminism. And even though I'm aware that the main reason this brand of feminism can be so popular is precisely because it's so patriarchy-friendly (and thus utterly nonthreatening to the status quo), that awareness doesn't make me feel any less despair when I witness a woman expressing more embarrassment over the women who believe men can't be feminists than she does over the many, many men who label themselves feminists so they'll have some leeway when it comes to mansplaining feminism to women.

I'm sure a large part of it comes down to the fact that women are mercilessly socialized to negate their own comfort if said negation might buoy someone else's peace of mind, but still, it makes me cringe like I do whenever I hear liberal feminists explain that the true purpose of feminism is the pursuit of happy, choosy, individual choices, rather than the pursuit of liberation for all women as a class. Or whenever I hear a woman intimate that we should all take comfort in the notion that embracing feminism doesn't automatically turn women into hirsute, man-hating, penis-burning separatists*.

The undercurrent of "don't worry, my guys, YOU'RE not the problem, it's those OTHER guys!" depresses me more than almost any other aspect of liberal feminism. You don't really get to excuse your buddy Patrick from being part of the problem -- "...when women talk about "The Man", we're not talking about you. You're just a man. You're not The Man. Similarly, when we talk about the patriarchy, that's not you, either. You're not the patriarchy. You're just… Patrick." -- because he's been so magnanimous as to treat women like human beings whenever you're around.

* IAAHMHPBS, IANYHMHPBS
posted by amnesia and magnets at 8:52 AM on March 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


So when I see people asking why liberal feminists are rhetorically gentle to men, I think (perhaps depressingly), I was talking to my therapist, who happens to have done a lot of side marriage counseling, and we were talking about what that was like. And she said, "When I have my individual sessions, I always tell the woman, 'Now the first several sessions are going to focus on you, and it will be uncomfortable, and I'm sorry, but that's just often necessary to get men to buy in to the process.' "

And honestly, that's jibed with my experience. Every time I have wanted men to do something or change something in a way that inconvenienced themselves, I have had to do it gently, while affirming their ego the whole time. Every time I haven't done this, it's gone pear shaped.

Right now women are not at a critical mass such that we can get the shit we want done without men. I wish we were, because honestly I don't think men can be good feminists, but we are not. Even the feminist movement is torn on a direction, which splits our forces. I see the point of intersectional feminism, but when you are focusing your work on the most marginalized, you are also focusing your work on the situations that fewest people, by definition, have personal experience with, which tends to reduce mass support. It's far easier to get laws/attitudes changed that affect the most people, even if those laws aren't the most harmful.

So if you're working on issues that already have painfully low support, you really can't afford to write off half the population and say "I'm not going to even bother trying to get men on our side." It's less a moral choice than a tactical one, at least for myself and others like me. And men are more likely to work for change if you say "It's not you! It's those other guys! Not like you who would never!" even if it is bullshit and they would totally.
posted by corb at 9:14 AM on March 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


Yeah, it would be nice if we could make men care first and NOT ALL MEN second, just like people of color wish they could make white people care first and recoil second, but that's just not how it works. And I know as a white person who has recoiled "b-b-b-but!" that it's hard to shove that down and stop and listen, and that is one reason it has to be done.

And then there's the fact we'll get written off as "angry" and "emotional" if we don't pet and stroke and smooth and be sweet.

And then, thirdly, we kind of have to do it because we get killed for not being nice and stuff. It's a habit, trying not to get killed.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:33 AM on March 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


That's a tough nut for a humor writer to crack; I can't think of one other than Roxanne Gay -- and she's not really a humor writer-- who's good at it.

Bad Feminist is a book I highly recommend to everyone. Even if you can't relate, she provides an array of new perspectives (at least for me) and shows how nuanced feminism can be. While I enjoyed this article, the criticisms of Moran can't be ignored. I suppose it's enough for Esquire that they've satisfied their feminism quota with her, but for larger contexts of women of color and feminism, intersectionality truly matters.
posted by numaner at 9:47 AM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


The period section is a great example of why this bothered me. For the record: I am a white, middle-class, cisgender woman, so the fact that I felt alienated is pretty impressive.

I'm not traumatized by my period. I don't think of my uterus as a painful blood bag and I don't like the comparison of period blood to gravy. I don't like it when people assume that my period is a big deal and somehow fundamental to my experiences as a woman, even as a woman who has one.

Some women don't get periods. Not just trans women, but women who have hysterectomies, women who control it with medication, and so on. Numerically, most women have (or had) periods, but even then, our experiences are so different. My period is a mild inconvenience. For some women, it's a spiritual experience (which Moran explicitly mocks). For only some women is the experience like Moran's.

The generalization of her experience to some kind of woman's experience is essentialist in a way that makes me really uncomfortable. It's so much more nuanced than that. Periods are a women's issue because so many women are affected, not because they are essential to being a woman. She misses that.

I don't want a male audience to read this and think they understand me better, but I think this is what the article is selling.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 9:51 AM on March 10, 2016 [20 favorites]


It's far easier to get laws/attitudes changed that affect the most people, even if those laws aren't the most harmful.

...leaving the few suffering the most harm, the most in need of help and change, perpetually out in the cold.
posted by Dysk at 10:07 AM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yeah, it's a constant balancing scale. Sometimes you /need/ to address the needs of the most vulnerable. But what I'm saying is that when you are addressing those kinds of needs, you need to be extra careful not to alienate possible supporters, (such as men) because you're starting with a smaller base to begin with. So just because someone seems to be speaking in a more conciliatory way, doesn't mean they don't have good goals in mind. Now this may not be what Moran is doing! I was just speaking more towards this criticism directed at the broader group of "liberal feminists".
posted by corb at 10:15 AM on March 10, 2016


Yeah, it would be nice if we could make men care first and NOT ALL MEN second, just like people of color wish they could make white people care first and recoil second, but that's just not how it works. I know as a white person who has recoiled "b-b-b-but!" that it's hard to shove that down and stop and listen, and that is one reason it has to be done.

When it comes to saying "that's just not how it works," maybe I'm just painfully naive and idealistic, but my first reaction is "it doesn't have to stay that way!" Whenever I start to feel the "b-b-b-but!" recoil, my first instinct is to tell myself to get the fuck over myself, because it's sickening for me to want to insist that the people above whom I am privileged should modify their language and tactics to ensure my fragile ego is not unduly bruised. It didn't always feel so simple, but the part where I concentrate on pulling my head out of my own ass instead of wanting to take my Ally Ball and go home gets a little easier every day. So I have faith, maybe too much faith, that men as a class can do the same.

I definitely agree that until men confronted with their own misogyny start to default to getting the fuck over themselves, as opposed to #notall-ing and insisting upon their absolute imperviousness, coddling them is necessary to get shit done. And it will probably remain necessary until they stop comprising the vast majority of our elected officials, lawmakers, judges, and world leaders. But I guess part of me must be maintaining a quiet belief in the idea that the dissolution of the patriarchy MUST be achievable through male enlightenment as opposed to female self-abnegation. Because contemplating the fact that women are just going to have to bite our tongues about sexist oppression and patriarchy forever in order to a) not get murdered, b) not get dismissed for being "emotional," and c) wring even a drop of support from our oppressors, in particular "feminist" men who adamantly refuse to believe they've ever contributed to the problems at hand, doesn't just feel infuriating, it feels IMPOSSIBLE.

(Don't get me wrong, I feel so drained of hope that #yesallmen, even/especially "feminist" men, will ever truly and whole-heartedly get on board -- as opposed to holding out and waiting to be presented with issues that pique their self-interest -- that most of the time, I'm on the razor's edge of, "Ugh, fuck this, I can't even stand to be near you anymore," which is why I'm planning on moving to separatist land.)

I spent a lot of years dumbing down my insights and beliefs in hopes of acquiring male approval, and I do kind of wish I could still stomach the coddling and hand-holding, because I'm so impressed and humbled by women who can put the movement over their own sense of injustice and disgust; it's clear that you're the ones who can get laws passed and protections implemented. But the older I get, the more I can't help but call men out on their not-so-secret misogyny whenever it starts to leak out from around the edges of their Dudely Feminist shields, and you're right, even if it feels moral and true, it's certainly not the best tactical choice.
posted by amnesia and magnets at 10:21 AM on March 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Now this may not be what Moran is doing!

Assuredly not.
posted by Dysk at 10:36 AM on March 10, 2016


I'm not defending Moran but I had the rather distinct impression she was not actually coddling male readers so much as mocking any male reader who might actually need or want coddling. Poe's law, though.
posted by gingerest at 4:18 PM on March 10, 2016 [5 favorites]


I dunno corb, do you think that white, cis, hetero, feminine women are the majority of women in this world? Or even in the developed, Western world? I'm not so sure. I am pretty sure though that focusing solely on "mainstream" feminist issues (i.e. ignoring issues that involve intersections) leaves a whole lot of women feeling like feminism doesn't give a damn about them, and greatly weakens the cause as a whole. If you're going to fight for equality, you can't do it while saying "except not for those people over there, they need to wait their turn." When we do that, we sow a seed of hypocrisy at the base of all our efforts, and it renders all our victories hollow. Equality must be for everyone, or else we merely shift the focus of oppression while doing nothing to end it.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 6:42 PM on March 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


It's difficult to imagine Esquire buying that piece.
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:52 PM on March 10, 2016


My main beef with this is all the apologizing and hand-holding. If none of these things has ever occurred to a reader of Esquire, they need to be walloped by a professional.

I think it's safe to say that most of the readers of Esquire need to be walloped by a professional in that case. And I think in many ways that this is a walloping by a professional.

None of that negates the fact that she's a problematic professional. I don't know how relevant the problems are in a piece to an audience where none of the problematic issues are even on the radar, though.
posted by ambrosen at 1:54 AM on March 11, 2016 [2 favorites]




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