Mikhail Lesin was bludgeoned to death.
March 11, 2016 1:59 AM   Subscribe

Four months after Lesin's death, a US coroner reports that former Russian media oligarch Mikhail Lesin died of blunt trauma to the head, neck, torso, arms, and legs--not a heart attack. At the time of his death in a Washington, D.C. hotel, it was reported that there was "no evidence of foul play".

From the NYT main link:
Although the examiner and the police did not declare his death a criminal act, the authorities clearly no longer consider it to be the result of natural causes. Mr. Lesin’s body also showed signs of blunt trauma to his neck, torso, arms and legs, the result, according to one official, of some sort of altercation that happened before he returned to his room at the Dupont Circle Hotel on the night in November when he died at the age of 59.

The medical examiner’s office did not explain the timing of its announcement, nor why the findings took so long. Officials there had said as recently as Wednesday that it would not imminently release its findings, only to reverse course the next day. His death remains the subject of a police investigation, though spokesmen for the Metropolitan Police Department and the F.B.I. in Washington declined to comment.
Russia Today, the government-funded media group Lesin helped found, is "a continuation of the old Soviet propaganda services". That said, here's RT's story on Lesin's death.

See also:
The deaths of:

Boris Nemtsov, a Russian opposition leader who was shot to death the day before a rally in 2015.

Anna Politkovskaya, a Russian journalist, human rights activist, and critic of Putin who was shot inside her apartment in 2006.

Alexander Litvinenko, a former Russian agent who turned and publicly accused Vladimir Putin of responsibility for Politkovskaya's death and shortly thereafter died of polonium poisoning.

Sergei Magnitsky, an auditor who exposed massive tax fraud by Russian officials and later died in prison of a heart attack resulting from untreated pancreatitis. His family says he was beaten and tortured.

Natalya Estemirova, a writer for the independent Russian publication Novaya Gazeta who was the fifth Novaya Gazeta reporter killed since 2000. She was also an advocate for Russian human-rights group Memorial, which insists that Chechen authorities were responsible for Estemirova's murder.

Alexei Devotchenko, an actor, gay rights activist and Putin critic whose death authorities initially said had "a criminal character" but which was later declared to be a result of a drunken self-inflicted injury.
posted by Sleeper (70 comments total) 20 users marked this as a favorite
 
How is the rest of the world allowing Putin to act with such impudence as a Bond villain? There's not even any subtlety here, we are at the point that if video of him shooting an opponent point blank in the face surfaced, we'd be completely unperturbed.

World leaders: "Oh, we should really do something about that."

A strongly worded letter isn't going to stop this.
posted by NordyneDefenceDynamics at 2:50 AM on March 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


How is the rest of the world allowing Putin to act with such impudence as a Bond villain?

Because we don't live in a Bond movie. He controls a lot of oil and natural gas that Western Europe relies on, has a large standing army, has who-knows-what sorts of alliances with countries such as China and Syria, and has access to nuclear weapons.

"Taking on Putin" is a lovely fantasy, but there would be serious economic and political consequences, and much harm done to people around the world in the process.
posted by kewb at 3:11 AM on March 11, 2016 [49 favorites]


Litvinenko: Yes they poisoned me, and I am going to die. I'll tell you who did it and how.

Sure... but let's get the facts right, we haven't heard both sides of the story. What you're saying would be a huge international incident if it were true. Can you prove your claims?

What? My teeth are loose. I told you everything.
posted by adept256 at 3:42 AM on March 11, 2016 [13 favorites]


While we should deplore shenanigans in Russia, we're not in a position to do anything about it (nor would I necessarily advocate intervening if we could -- let the Russians handle it).

The question about this news is not whether Putin is a villain. Rather it's why this was immediately covered up, and why it's coming out now. Is Washington playing diplomatic footsie with Moscow, or trying to cover up a case of random violence at home? Some other angle (I've hardly begun to ponder the possibilities)?

The protest by the Russian Embassy is strictly pro-forma. They'd be lodging that whether they were trying to cover for their own actions or genuinely pissed off at the ham-handed US public relations job.
posted by oheso at 3:46 AM on March 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


Europe can take on Putin and his oil-rich pals by speeding up the development of solar and wind power, and by using less power (investing in long-term energy efficiency). Oil and natural gas exports provide two-thirds of Russia's income. Put that cash into European wind and solar installations rather than sending it to Russia.
posted by pracowity at 3:52 AM on March 11, 2016 [35 favorites]


Ah, that's why Germany is going all out on Solar!
posted by sammyo at 4:05 AM on March 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


You know who else took on Russia?

There's quite a list, and it never ends well. The only people who can successfully fuck with Russia are the Russians.
posted by Devonian at 4:08 AM on March 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


I hear the Mongols were pretty successful as well.
posted by daniel_charms at 4:39 AM on March 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


I don't think anyone's talking about taking a brisk winter jaunt to Putingrad. Just stop sending them huge piles of easy foreign cash in exchange for nonrenewable resources that we all need to stop burning anyway, Putin or no Putin. Let the Russians fuck with the Russians. Maybe Putin will have a "heart attack" of his own.
posted by pracowity at 4:48 AM on March 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


I hear the Mongols were pretty successful as well.

If you don't count Prince Dmitri and Ivan the Terrible, sure.

How is the rest of the world allowing Putin to act with such impudence as a Bond villain?

Allow? Obama has gutted the oil market, ratcheted up sanctions and is forcing Russia to overspend on modernizing and deploying its military in Eastern Europe. He's doing something, tho it may take a decade or so to bear fruit.

There is no military solution to Russia apart from what Obama is doing - deploy troops to the Baltic to force the Russian army to spread itself too thin, equip regional rivals with cut-price American and EU gear to undercut Russian exports and arm former client states. The strategy is to destabilize the regime by isolating it and undermining its economy. This usually works pretty well against Russia, but it's a long game with no instant results. Russia has an enormous conventional military and ICBMs with city-killer nukes. A hot war with them is too stupid to be contemplated.
posted by Slap*Happy at 4:56 AM on March 11, 2016 [67 favorites]


It is sometimes weird to work in DC, and walk around on your lunch break, and wonder "hmmm, which of my fellow pedestrians today are likely to be international assassins working for Vladimir Putin?"

(I mean, they probably mostly drive around in tinted window Town Cars, but even international assassins working for Vladimir Putin probably want to go get a coffee now and then.)
posted by a fiendish thingy at 6:01 AM on March 11, 2016 [10 favorites]


A similar list could be published about the US. Or the UK. Russia is always a convenient distraction from this truth.
posted by grounded at 6:10 AM on March 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


even international assassins working for Vladimir Putin probably want to go get a coffee now and then.

I often see them browsing at the Untraceable Poisons Я Us out behind Injector-in-an-Umbrella Warehouse.
posted by pracowity at 6:12 AM on March 11, 2016 [12 favorites]


When you see a world leader being groomed as the Big Bad Villain, suitable for five minute hates, don't you get the impression that someone is trying to distract you from something?
posted by Grangousier at 6:15 AM on March 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


A similar list could be published about the US. Or the UK. Russia is always a convenient distraction from this truth.

Sort of, yeah. I mean, I wouldn't be totally surprised to hear of torture or assassinations caused by either government. That being said, the reason Russia is being so blatant about it is that they're using assassination as a tool to terrorise people and put down dissent.

The UK and US can't really do that, because they would have to hide and deny that they're doing it in the first place. So they might be doing the torture and killing, but they have to be a lot more subtle about the intimidation effect. They also seem to be more reluctant to use torture and killing on high profile public opposition.
posted by YAMWAK at 6:20 AM on March 11, 2016 [11 favorites]


When you see a world leader being groomed as the Big Bad Villain, suitable for five minute hates, don't you get the impression that someone is trying to distract you from something?

I mean, sometimes this is true and on the other hand sometimes individuals, including leaders of foreign countries, really are very terrible and are negatively affecting the lives of a great many people. You don't get bonus points for constantly trying to see beyond the conspiracy and ignoring the actual harm being done, although I get that constant skepticism is probably more fun.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 6:21 AM on March 11, 2016 [25 favorites]


It's not about fun, it's about the notion that there are people who are excited to leverage the quite understandable and justifiable dislike for Putin and his regime into more pointless, destructive (but profitable!) military action. If you think that's just cynicism, I suggest you take a look at the Middle East over the last couple of decades. Saddam, Gaddafi and their ilk were deeply unpleasant, but what we have now is ISIS and friends, a humanitarian catastrophe and many, many refugees. I'm very wary of Putin becoming another icon for the Something Must Be Done tendency.
posted by Grangousier at 6:32 AM on March 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


the notion that there are people who are excited to leverage the quite understandable and justifiable dislike for Putin and his regime into more pointless, destructive (but profitable!) military action.

Are you saying someone is trying to engineer a war with Russia? When avoiding (hot) war with Russia has been a cornerstone of US foreign policy for 60 years? And, you know, the mutually assured destruction thing? I mean...I guess it's possible. But I think you're barking up the wrong forest on this one.
posted by howfar at 6:38 AM on March 11, 2016 [5 favorites]


I think the trouble with Russia is that a broad range of people have reasons for naming Putin-et-al the big bad.

For instance, it gives me the cold shudders whenever I think about what my fellow queer people are enduring over there, and I have absolutely no trouble wishing ill on Putin and thinking poorly of the Russians who support him. Lots of people one agrees with have very, very good reasons for hating and fearing Putin, because he and his supporters are actually hurting and killing people, and it's a bit difficult to say "well, actually, you should stop thinking about this so much because even if your fellow [queers/dissidents/feminists/sexual-assault-victims/etc] are suffering horribly, even talking about it is playing into the hands of the right".

It's the same thing that happens around here with Syria. The anti-interventionist left in my social circles (who, to be fair, are all absolutely supportive on the admitting-refugees thing) really, really doesn't want anyone to talk about Syria, including Syrians. You can make a room full of a certain type of activist very uncomfortable by being a Syrian and wanting to overthrow Assad, even if your reasons for this are very good indeed, even if you're talking about your family over there and how worried you are. I've seen it happen. People don't want it talked about, because they can't think of anything to do and they are afraid that talking about it will lend support to calls for intervention.

I don't know what the solution to this problem is, but I feel like "don't talk about your relatives in Syria/queers in Russia because things are so bad over there that it creates an impression that the US should do something" can't be the answer.
posted by Frowner at 6:43 AM on March 11, 2016 [24 favorites]


It's not about fun, it's about the notion that there are people who are excited to leverage the quite understandable and justifiable dislike for Putin and his regime into more pointless, destructive (but profitable!) military action. If you think that's just cynicism, I suggest you take a look at the Middle East over the last couple of decades. Saddam, Gaddafi and their ilk were deeply unpleasant, but what we have now is ISIS and friends, a humanitarian catastrophe and many, many refugees. I'm very wary of Putin becoming another icon for the Something Must Be Done tendency.

I think this is a totally fair and thoughtful point and I believe it adds to the discussion, so thank you for making it! I find that I often see comments that ignore real problems in favor of theoretical problems at which the poster themselves merely hints enticingly and that is how I read your original comment. I really appreciate your clarification and think that it is a helpful point when it is articulated more fully.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 6:47 AM on March 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


My most sincere condolences to the coroner's family and loved ones.
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:51 AM on March 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


All of Russian history in four words: "Then things got worse."
posted by JohnFromGR at 6:53 AM on March 11, 2016 [9 favorites]


It is sometimes weird to work in DC, and walk around on your lunch break, and wonder "hmmm, which of my fellow pedestrians today are likely to be international assassins working for Vladimir Putin?"

I don't know, it's kinda fun to stop by a poorly concealed KGB front business like Russia House lounge.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:08 AM on March 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


I don't know, it's kinda fun to stop by a poorly concealed KGB front business like Russia House lounge.

Also that place in Dupont by the Shake Shack, right? The upstairs one?
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 7:22 AM on March 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don't know, it's kinda fun to stop by a poorly concealed KGB front business like Russia House lounge.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:08 AM on March 11 [+] [!]


Ahhh, Russia House. Good times.
posted by yarly at 7:22 AM on March 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


if people want an overview of putin's russia, nothing is true and everything is possible is a good (informative, believable, entertaining), but somewhat depressing read.
posted by andrewcooke at 7:22 AM on March 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Ah, that's why Germany is going all out on Solar!

They're not at full tilt currently, the subsidy went down over the last 2-3 years as it was linked to the rate of uptake and as a result demand has now flattened out. Wind and biomass are both more significant in Germany's energy consumption.
posted by biffa at 7:22 AM on March 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Regime change for Russia! Woo hoo!
posted by infini at 7:23 AM on March 11, 2016


There are always elements of "Who's being naive, Kay?" in this kind of analysis. The US and other "democratic" countries also have people killed.

That doesn't excuse Putin's crimes. But the only people who can hold Putin to account without the risk of provoking World War III are the Russian people. And they actually gave it a shot not long ago. If you want rid of Putin the best you can do is keep up international solidarity for his political opposition and hope they can do one better.
posted by graymouser at 7:24 AM on March 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


The US targets civilians in drone strikes. It's a bad old world.
posted by My Dad at 7:49 AM on March 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


Are you saying someone is trying to engineer a war with Russia?

No, I think there might be a deliberate policy to build Putin's Russia into a sizeable enough rival that their geopolitical interests can be used to justify more manageable interventions. "We have to get involved in $situation because Putin". One might see narratives surrounding Syria through that lens (for example), though I don't know how focused and successful they've been.
posted by Grangousier at 7:56 AM on March 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


I don’t think there are many naive pollyannas here, who are all “gee golly gosh the old US of A would never act this way!!!” I have no illusions about the US having a thriving wetworks program, or using drones, or trying to destabilize regimes.

At the same time, what is so unsettling about Putin is that he’s so brazen (even borderline gleeful) about it. Someone criticizes him, that person ends up dead. Someone believes in rights that Putin doesn't believe in, that person ends up dead. Another person criticizes him, that person ends up dead. Another person says “that was murder, done by Putin,” that person ends up dead. Someone flees Russia to escape certain death, that person ends up dead, despite being checked into a nice hotel in another country. Putin says "no foul play!" and the coroner says "literally the definition of foul play???" and Putin shrugs. And he seems to think it is hilarious, and takes a picture of himself riding a tiger while shooting guns at the sky.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 8:00 AM on March 11, 2016 [18 favorites]


The Russian people (outside of the more liberal major metropolises) still idolize and support Putin. Even when you see truckers going on strike, interviews with them always go like this "I love Putin - he is our greatest leader - but he must help us".
posted by spicynuts at 8:09 AM on March 11, 2016


I think the international community has a huge role in stabilizing people of many nations who oppose abusive government actions in working against that. Let the voices of the people ring clear, may the people be heard, may all these deeds come to light and humans build new leaders who will value the difficult work of building peace and value human life even of enemies and new ways of creating protection that values protection for all involved if possible.
posted by xarnop at 8:11 AM on March 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


The question about this news is not whether Putin is a villain. Rather it's why this was immediately covered up, and why it's coming out now. Is Washington playing diplomatic footsie with Moscow, or trying to cover up a case of random violence at home? Some other angle (I've hardly begun to ponder the possibilities)?

Yeah, for all it feels like "who cares about the rest of the world" to say it, the fact that this originally ran as a story with a concrete statement about there being no signs of it as anything other than a heart attack is what really catches my attention. MPD is city government, not the feds, so to put the fix in here on this statement requires some coordination. To be willing to make that statement - albeit with an acknowledgement that it was a homicide investigation - when you found someone with blunt force trauma indications everywhere on their body laying on a floor... that's some rug-sweeping coverup shit.

Or maybe it was just the MPD being garden variety obstructionist on behalf of the Doyle. Certainly no other possible guest wants to hear that another guest was found beaten around the head, neck, torso, arms, and legs. I don't credit Lanier with the ability to spell transparent, much less exhibit it as a behavior, so perhaps it's worth some consideration of this being garden variety hiding that just happens to help out Putin.
posted by phearlez at 8:17 AM on March 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


"Sort of, yeah. I mean, I wouldn't be totally surprised to hear of torture or assassinations caused by either government. That being said, the reason Russia is being so blatant about it is that they're using assassination as a tool to terrorise people and put down dissent.

The UK and US can't really do that, because they would have to hide and deny that they're doing it in the first place.
"

*spits out coffee*

The drone program, the CIA assassinations programs of the 1970s, the Church Committee, extraordinary renditions, waterboarding and just general torture, I mean, that's already out in the open.

And, yes, it's all still bad no matter which "side" still does it.
posted by I-baLL at 8:40 AM on March 11, 2016 [7 favorites]



When you see a world leader being groomed as the Big Bad Villain, suitable for five minute hates, don't you get the impression that someone is trying to distract you from something?


Putin may look like a villain, may act like a villain, but don't let that fool you.

He really is a villain.
posted by ocschwar at 9:15 AM on March 11, 2016 [7 favorites]


I think the international community has a huge role in stabilizing people of many nations who oppose abusive government actions in working against that. Let the voices of the people ring clear, may the people be heard, may all these deeds come to light and humans build new leaders who will value the difficult work of building peace and value human life even of enemies and new ways of creating protection that values protection for all involved if possible.

Occupy something that actually works?
posted by infini at 9:26 AM on March 11, 2016


It's not about fun, it's about the notion that there are people who are excited to leverage the quite understandable and justifiable dislike for Putin and his regime into more pointless, destructive (but profitable!) military action.

Why would the US go to war over Mikhail Lesin? I'm not saying you're wrong, I would just like to know what is special about Lesin that would merit that level of response.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 9:35 AM on March 11, 2016


I guess what I meant is, we can look at all of them in this light, I don't think the fact that abuses happen everywhere means we should care LESS about any individual one.
posted by xarnop at 9:35 AM on March 11, 2016


In countries where there is a much more linear and open path to death for speaking out, it's even more important that we keep media open for their voices when they feel it's worth getting their message out. The international community can keep these voices alive while their governments might have been able to erase them before anyone could know.
posted by xarnop at 9:37 AM on March 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


When you see a world leader being groomed as the Big Bad Villain, suitable for five minute hates, don't you get the impression that someone is trying to distract you from something?

When you read about a long and brazen pattern of crimes and/or human rights abuses by a foreign leader or nation, and then within about 20 minutes a bunch of people chime in with "b-b-b-but America" and other apologia for said crimes, don't you get the impression that you are reading Metafilter?
posted by Behemoth at 9:39 AM on March 11, 2016 [17 favorites]


So, the skin bag full of broken bones had a heart attack. Died from a love tap, or five dozen? Oh it's a valentine, from Russia with love, well, or a Russian's wife.
posted by Oyéah at 9:57 AM on March 11, 2016


Honestly, we have just over zero information here, thus the rancor. Who killed this guy? Who knows? Putin's a murderer - but why would DC cover up for him? Who knows? If they were covering up, why did it come out? Who knows?

Don't get me wrong - I'd bet Putin's behind it, if only due to Ockham's Razor, but we have a very small oyster here and we're making an awful lot of stew out of it...
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 10:00 AM on March 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


When you read about a long and brazen pattern of crimes and/or human rights abuses by a foreign leader or nation, and then within about 20 minutes a bunch of people chime in with "b-b-b-but America" and other apologia for said crimes, don't you get the impression that you are reading Metafilter?

American Exceptionalism doesn't only apply to the jingoistic belief that the USA can do no wrong because Jesus and the Bible and our God-fearing Founding Fathers.

It also means that all the evils of the world must be looked at through the American prism, because while awful shit happens everywhere, the only important awful shit happens in, or derives from the actions of, the bad ol' US of A.
posted by Atom Eyes at 10:09 AM on March 11, 2016 [4 favorites]


Well it is either passion or message, kind of like finding a body with fifty stab wounds. Blunt force trauma was understatement. The description was of many blunt force targets and opportunities taken.
posted by Oyéah at 10:10 AM on March 11, 2016


Interesting side note:

I just read that Mikhail's son Anton apparently used some of the millions of dollars Mikhail misappropriated through the Russian government to finance four major Hollywood films starring Brad Pitt, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Robert de Niro, and so on.

His films include: Dirty Grandpa (2016), Sabotage (2014), Fury (2014), and Fading Gigolo (2013).

I first read about this in the BBC's article today about Lesin's death. There are more details in this 2014 BusinessInsider article.
posted by Sleeper at 10:28 AM on March 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


> For instance, it gives me the cold shudders whenever I think about what my fellow queer people are enduring over there, and I have absolutely no trouble wishing ill on Putin and thinking poorly of the Russians who support him. Lots of people one agrees with have very, very good reasons for hating and fearing Putin, because he and his supporters are actually hurting and killing people, and it's a bit difficult to say "well, actually, you should stop thinking about this so much because even if your fellow [queers/dissidents/feminists/sexual-assault-victims/etc] are suffering horribly, even talking about it is playing into the hands of the right".

That's one of the reflexes I like least about the left, dating back to when I was protesting the Vietnam War almost half a century ago and many of my fellow lefties were upset when I mentioned that North Vietnam was no shining exemplar to humanity: "Don't say that! You're playing into the hands of the right!" Fuck that shit. Truth is truth, and suppressing the truth in the name of a Higher Truth is wrong no matter what your Higher Truth is.
posted by languagehat at 10:30 AM on March 11, 2016 [22 favorites]


Oh, he also produced 2015's Rock The Casbah and the 2014 horror film Haunt.

Honestly, we have just over zero information here, thus the rancor.
posted by lupus_yonderboy

I agree. I'm very interested in this, and I've been impatiently waiting for more information to come out. I'm surprised this isn't being treated as huge news.

As oheso and phearlez point out, the most interesting part of this is the strange amount of time it took to announce the blunt force cause-of-death. How and why did the cause of death come out this way?
posted by Sleeper at 10:41 AM on March 11, 2016


I hear the Mongols were pretty successful as well.

During the couple of hundred years of Mongol domination the Russians learned a great deal about the art of Don't Fuck With Us from the Golden Horde.
posted by Kabanos at 11:46 AM on March 11, 2016


The Russian daily Kommersant ran an interview with a friend of Lesin who stated that Lesin was in Washington on a business meeting but suffered an "alcohol-related breakdown". Apparently, he was quite drunk when he arrived at the hotel where he was eventually found dead and went out for more alcohol in the morning; in the evening, a security guard found him passed on the floor, but did not bother to notify anyone. The next morning, the cleaning personnel found Lesin's lifeless body in the same spot where the guard had left him.

The same friend also claims Lesin had had similar episodes before where he fell and hurt himself while drunk, although he admits that while this might explain the head trauma, it doesn't explain where he got the other ones from.

Link, Google Translate. Feel free to take it with a grain of salt, though, as Kommersant is owned by Gazprom Media, Lesin's former employer.
posted by daniel_charms at 11:47 AM on March 11, 2016


a bunch of people chime in with "b-b-b-but America"

While the leaders of U.S.ofA. have been guilty of some pretty bad shit, assassinating domestic enemies is beyond even Nixon-level evil. He had an 'Enemies List' but Washington Post editor Ben Bradlee survived publishing the Watergate stories. Yes, some of our recent 'Terrorist Targets' were American citizens, but none of them were living in San Bernardino at the time (although many Americans would argue it would save American lives).

Still, I'm surprised we've gone this long without somebody mentioning the leading Presidential Candidate who said "I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters." THAT is just like Putin, only more so.
posted by oneswellfoop at 12:33 PM on March 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


The only people who can successfully fuck with Russia are the Russians.

There was the little matter of their 1980s Afghanistan adventure that suggests otherwise.

("Da, da, comrade, plan all along vas to bankrupt Sowiet Union and retreat once ve had toughened up Taliban enough to be threat to America!")
posted by aught at 1:00 PM on March 11, 2016


A similar list could be published about the US. Or the UK. Russia is always a convenient distraction from this truth.

Google "small plane crash" - makes one wonder if the US is just not as creative...
posted by Chuffy at 2:08 PM on March 11, 2016


I would just like to know what is special about Lesin that would merit that level of response.

A foreign government carrying out an assassination in Washington D.C. is a serious offense, regardless of who the target was.

The US targets civilians in drone strikes. It's a bad old world.

Are you positing this as justification for murder?
posted by kanewai at 2:23 PM on March 11, 2016


A foreign government carrying out an assassination in Washington D.C. is a serious offense, regardless of who the target was.

Makes you wonder if he was assassinated by a foreign government at all...
posted by Chuffy at 2:34 PM on March 11, 2016


Makes you wonder if he was assassinated by a foreign government at all...

Indeed. Isn't the fact that no remotely plausible US policy goal would be served by the death of a former Gazprom executive who virtually no one in the US knew about before his death or will care about in 2 months and which changed almost nothing about the relative power and influence of Russia and the US itself suspicious? How deep does this rabbit hole go? How many dimensions is this chess board?
posted by Copronymus at 2:45 PM on March 11, 2016 [6 favorites]


The US targets civilians in drone strikes. It's a bad old world.

>Are you positing this as justification for murder?

No. Obviously assassinating political rivals on foreign soil is bad. But the US engages in this kind of behavior *every* *day* with semi-autonomous weapons systems. Before your country invaded Iraq in 2003 state-sponsored assassination was I believe illegal (yes I am aware of the Phoenix Program in Vietnam, where the United States identified "subversives", abducted them, and killed them, and state-sponsored terror has a long history in the US).

Sure the Russians are bad dudes. But it's a bad old world out there, in case you haven't noticed.
posted by My Dad at 2:53 PM on March 11, 2016


"He was supposed to have died in a way where the only possible explanation was that he'd been murdered by a member of his own entourage. I don't send you to kill. I send you to be invisible. I send you because you don't exist." /Bourne
posted by exlotuseater at 5:31 PM on March 11, 2016




OK. So, we went to war in Iraq. It was stupid and ill-considered, likely illegal and an injury to the prestige of the USA we will be a long, long, long time living down, if ever.

One of our allies was Ukraine. They fought well, and the experience of Ukranians fighting a real war is one of the reasons the Russians aren't simply having their own way there.

Obama is ruining American oil companies to in turn ruin Russia for invading Ukraine, a nation who fought for us in an incredibly dumb war. We are exporting natural gas beginning this year on giant tankers to undercut the Russian pipelines, at the expense of ordinary Americans who rely on natural gas to cook and heat their homes.

Ukraine. Got our back? We got yours. May take a while, but hold on. Help is here.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:18 PM on March 11, 2016


Obama is ruining American oil companies? No, maybe the oil companies just don't get to rule our foreign policy as they have, and maybe American gas companies are making some money overseas and changing the balance of trade in our favor. I sure like filling my car for twenty bucks, rather than fitty a whack. Obama is not ruining me. Maybe we are creating some slack, keeping some people warm.
posted by Oyéah at 7:40 PM on March 11, 2016


Honestly, we have just over zero information here, thus the rancor. Who killed this guy? Who knows? Putin's a murderer - but why would DC cover up for him? Who knows? If they were covering up, why did it come out? Who knows?

If Lesin was indeed in some sort for witness protection for Russian defectors, as the Guardian suggests is possible, then Putin having him killed would have been pour décourager les autres, and DC covering that up was to lessen the force of that discouragement on those potential others by sowing seeds of doubt that he really was murdered.

But then we do have to try to figure out why the truth is being allowed to come out now.
posted by jamjam at 11:16 PM on March 11, 2016


oneswellfoop:

I had heard Donald had said something of the sort, but I did not actually think it was exactly as it has been repeated. Looked it up just now. Hot damn.

To reel Donald back into the topic at hand, though: I think what differentiates him from Putin is that he is a hothead. I don't think that Putin has necessarily a more rational anger, or even a higher threshold for it. What differentiates him is that he subscribes to a terrifying (not to mention toxic, in human terms) Russian image of masculinity, whose stoicism makes one very dangerous as a politician.

Trump would have someone murdered, then gloat about it. As president, Trump would yell and hoot on national television about his enemies; about who deserves to die. With Putin you don't know what's coming, because murder and retribution are a business so casual that it does not merit public acknowledgement. It doesn't have to be a rational business, either. A twisted logical system of honour, or loyalty, and maintaining prestige underlies all their affairs. This is a theatre of dominance rolling on muted emotions.
posted by constantinescharity at 11:34 AM on March 12, 2016


This thing just got better.
posted by Behemoth at 11:54 AM on March 12, 2016


This thing just got better.

Was just about to post this, as well as the fact that there could actually be a pretty simple explanation to this: "the electronic I-94 may indicate a departure in the travel history if the traveler had booked a return flight (even if the return ticket is not used)." Except apparently, Lesin hadn't used a commercial flight in years.
posted by daniel_charms at 12:05 PM on March 12, 2016


Yeah, I'm pretty sure this is more a glimpse into the farce that is the CBP/TSA security theater than a genuine development, but who doesn't love a good conspiracy theory?
posted by Behemoth at 12:16 PM on March 12, 2016


Well, for those who do, here's another strange piece to add to the mystery: according to a Kommersant reporter, Lesin's Telegram account was last accessed on 25 February (screenshot).
posted by daniel_charms at 12:40 PM on March 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


after reading the comments: 1) yes Putin etc have people assassinated, and Memorial should have been given the Nobel peace prize, i'm still sore about that 2) Chechnya was a fake, stoked war 3) we had no business breaking the post-warsaw pact convention to not foment rest in or invade or seek geopolitical influence in, let alone military territory in, Ukraine: a lot of what's happening now results from that (all countries fund spying, unrest, democratic protest and terrorism in all other countries, budgets permitting, ie very small african countries don't. We funded a selection of the above there, as they do here, but got serious about it and stoked it and 'staged' (media focus, talking about, plus money & advisors) to make it a NATO member ie our military territory on their border. Plus, historically Ukraine is the core of Russia, it was the only bit of Russia that stayed russian for the whole of history, if they want to be independent they should but joining them to NATO is like putting Canada in the Warsaw Pact, or the bay of pigs thing, it's obvious provocation and broke all the signed agreements. Therefore, Russia/Putin took the gloves off.... eg Syria. Yet another thing we did that we never talk about that made Syria turn into what it is, along with funding Assad for Special renditions & torture after ignoring his overtures about going human rights on his accession (compare our f u to Turkey when it wanted to join & do human rights when Erdogan first won, but billions now it's turning repressing to abuse refugees (forcibly returning is illegal)); sanctions on the whole population inc. food; bombing and drones & special forces on the ground; money by the back door. Putin is the he-man-on-parade-with-instagram version of our in a suit, by the back door, drop a byline to the press version, our version dresses to match our sensibilities, our media, eg Le Carre's latest books... #justsayin'
posted by maiamaia at 6:18 AM on March 13, 2016 [1 favorite]


NB Magnitsky was very clearly murdered in a police cell after being illegally detained or even kidnapped, i forget which, he was held illegally anyway, and it was a direct result of his uncovering huge graft or theft whatsitcalled; the others are mostly political insiders who defected, or investigative journalists; so these are a bit different. In the UK, lots of Russian political people have died/been murdered, eg that guy who 'had a heart attack after going for a jog but was quite young' turned out to have traces of some rare poisonous plant in him? It's also big news here because it's nice for journalists to have some proper trad exciting 'spies and assassinations' stuff to write about
posted by maiamaia at 6:22 AM on March 13, 2016


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