Everyone becomes a Wizard
March 12, 2016 3:04 PM Subscribe
…I think that's actually the first coherent plot summary of those books I've heard.
posted by nebulawindphone at 3:15 PM on March 12, 2016 [25 favorites]
posted by nebulawindphone at 3:15 PM on March 12, 2016 [25 favorites]
I hope there's a season of Drunk History devoted to fictional universes
I never knew I wanted this before and now I want it more than I have ever wanted anything.
posted by nonasuch at 3:18 PM on March 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
I never knew I wanted this before and now I want it more than I have ever wanted anything.
posted by nonasuch at 3:18 PM on March 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
Pretty much nailed it, yep. Also the GoT pix for the Atreides is a knife-twist in my heart because I'd still like to see HBO tackle the series.
Speaking of Dune, we've been doing a re-read of the all six books over on FanFare in the Dune Club, so, y'know, hop in! We're currently on God Emperor, but if you've got chatter about any of the other books posted already, get at it.
posted by cortex at 3:23 PM on March 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Speaking of Dune, we've been doing a re-read of the all six books over on FanFare in the Dune Club, so, y'know, hop in! We're currently on God Emperor, but if you've got chatter about any of the other books posted already, get at it.
posted by cortex at 3:23 PM on March 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
Checks out.
posted by Artw at 3:26 PM on March 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 3:26 PM on March 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
That was pretty much perfect.
posted by sparklemotion at 3:31 PM on March 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by sparklemotion at 3:31 PM on March 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I've read the book several times and I don't recall a damn thing about Fremen space jihad. wtf
posted by Brocktoon at 3:37 PM on March 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Brocktoon at 3:37 PM on March 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ok this has made my afternoooooooooon.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 3:44 PM on March 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 3:44 PM on March 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
The galactic jihad takes place in the space between the end of the first book and the start of the second one; Paul keeps agonizing about TERRIBLE PURPOSE throughout the first book largely because of his prescient awareness that he's fomenting said jihad by refusing any of the various choices (like just up and dying before messianic fever sets in on the Fremen) that'd avert it.
He spends most of the second book being pretty Hamlet about the whole being-the-Emperor-of-the-galaxy-and-living-Messiah-of-its-new-religion deal, which to be fair is a weird place to find yourself. The Fremen had in the decade or so interim swept across the galaxy, laying to waste the unloyal and/or unfaithful in his service, while a religio-governmental bureaucracy developed on and around Arrakis. Eventually shit goes sideways, he and Chani have a couple babies one of whom will go on to rule the galaxy for several millenial, and he wanders off to die in the desert .
Like you do.
posted by cortex at 3:45 PM on March 12, 2016 [30 favorites]
He spends most of the second book being pretty Hamlet about the whole being-the-Emperor-of-the-galaxy-and-living-Messiah-of-its-new-religion deal, which to be fair is a weird place to find yourself. The Fremen had in the decade or so interim swept across the galaxy, laying to waste the unloyal and/or unfaithful in his service, while a religio-governmental bureaucracy developed on and around Arrakis. Eventually shit goes sideways, he and Chani have a couple babies one of whom will go on to rule the galaxy for several millenial, and he wanders off to die in the desert .
Like you do.
posted by cortex at 3:45 PM on March 12, 2016 [30 favorites]
Still not read it... may be this year.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:47 PM on March 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:47 PM on March 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Sean Bean as Duke Leto?
*Stefon voice*
ACCURATE!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 3:47 PM on March 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
*Stefon voice*
ACCURATE!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 3:47 PM on March 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
Lacks any mention of Patrick Stewart and the PUG. -10 points
posted by jeribus at 4:22 PM on March 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by jeribus at 4:22 PM on March 12, 2016 [12 favorites]
What, no Guild Navigators?
posted by leotrotsky at 4:26 PM on March 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by leotrotsky at 4:26 PM on March 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Many machines on pigs.
posted by Artw at 4:28 PM on March 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 4:28 PM on March 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
What, no Guild Navigators?
It's been years since I read it, but don't they just underline the value of Spice in the first book?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:08 PM on March 12, 2016
It's been years since I read it, but don't they just underline the value of Spice in the first book?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:08 PM on March 12, 2016
Yeah, Guild folks are almost entirely absent from the narrative in the first book; there's mentions of the Guild itself, and the need for its navigators to be supplied with spice, and the graft they're involved in regarding smuggling to and from Arrakis and the control of surveillance satellites over the planet, but it's almost entirely background characterizations.
Actual representatives of the Guild only show up, a pair of them, right at the end of the book, in the court of Shaddam IV during the big showdown where the Fremen thump the Saudarkar and Paul makes his powerplay for the throne. The Guildies are a conspicuous pair of odd looking large men who keep to themselves for the most part, but at one point one of them is bumped in some bit of panic or fracas or something and is described as trying to hide the fact that he lost a cosmetic contact that revealed deeply spice-imbued blue eyes. That's about as far as the novel takes it, I think.
The next one features a Guild navigator as a core member of the conspiracy the book opens with, though. And of course the film has Lynch's take on navs show up really early on to give Shaddam marching orders, so that kind of infects book memories I think.
posted by cortex at 5:21 PM on March 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Actual representatives of the Guild only show up, a pair of them, right at the end of the book, in the court of Shaddam IV during the big showdown where the Fremen thump the Saudarkar and Paul makes his powerplay for the throne. The Guildies are a conspicuous pair of odd looking large men who keep to themselves for the most part, but at one point one of them is bumped in some bit of panic or fracas or something and is described as trying to hide the fact that he lost a cosmetic contact that revealed deeply spice-imbued blue eyes. That's about as far as the novel takes it, I think.
The next one features a Guild navigator as a core member of the conspiracy the book opens with, though. And of course the film has Lynch's take on navs show up really early on to give Shaddam marching orders, so that kind of infects book memories I think.
posted by cortex at 5:21 PM on March 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
CHOOM
posted by Artw at 5:22 PM on March 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 5:22 PM on March 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
I should reread it. Dune is one of my favouritest books ever.
Is it worth reading, like, any of the books that are not the original trilogy? Like aside from any hipster "Only Herbert Originals plz" BS.
My standards aren't really that high, but I have so many other things to read. So should any of the Dune books take their place?
posted by quaking fajita at 6:00 PM on March 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Is it worth reading, like, any of the books that are not the original trilogy? Like aside from any hipster "Only Herbert Originals plz" BS.
My standards aren't really that high, but I have so many other things to read. So should any of the Dune books take their place?
posted by quaking fajita at 6:00 PM on March 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Guild Navigators from the Lynch film are my primary objection to the "dress for the job you want" maxim.
posted by The Gaffer at 6:22 PM on March 12, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by The Gaffer at 6:22 PM on March 12, 2016 [16 favorites]
Fuck yeah rolling around in a big rolling fishtank with a bunch of WH40K cultist dudes to translate for you.
posted by Artw at 6:31 PM on March 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:31 PM on March 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
Is it worth reading, like, any of the books that are not the original trilogy? Like aside from any hipster "Only Herbert Originals plz" BS.
God Emperor and Heretics+Chapterhouse are good, but significantly different in feel than Dune/Messiah/Children. Got to hive Herbert props for serious balls though -- God Emperor is like "Fuck it, it's a few thousand years later," and Heretics is "Double fuck it, it's another few thousand years after that."
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:08 PM on March 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
God Emperor and Heretics+Chapterhouse are good, but significantly different in feel than Dune/Messiah/Children. Got to hive Herbert props for serious balls though -- God Emperor is like "Fuck it, it's a few thousand years later," and Heretics is "Double fuck it, it's another few thousand years after that."
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:08 PM on March 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
Yeah, God Emperor has always been my favorite after the original.
posted by rifflesby at 7:13 PM on March 12, 2016
posted by rifflesby at 7:13 PM on March 12, 2016
Dune is the sci-fi universe that likes to think it really, really understands economics and fails miserably. In the Dune universe, the Spacing Guild would own everything overnight. "Yeah, you won't pay us everything we want? Have fun being stranded in your solar system. You own Arrakis? So tell me, how do you think you'll get the spice off the planet?"
Whoever controls the spice controls the universe? That's like saying whoever controls the semiconductors controls the Internet. Whoever controls Foxconn controls Apple. Whoever controls the potatoes controls McDonalds french fries.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:54 PM on March 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
Whoever controls the spice controls the universe? That's like saying whoever controls the semiconductors controls the Internet. Whoever controls Foxconn controls Apple. Whoever controls the potatoes controls McDonalds french fries.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:54 PM on March 12, 2016 [10 favorites]
He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:06 PM on March 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:06 PM on March 12, 2016 [11 favorites]
How did they travel through space before the discovery of spice?
posted by Conrad Cornelius o'Donald o'Dell at 8:30 PM on March 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Conrad Cornelius o'Donald o'Dell at 8:30 PM on March 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Slowly at first, using conventional FTL engines. Then after space folding was discovered but before spice, very quickly but at great risk because one in ten ships never arrived anywhere.
posted by rifflesby at 8:40 PM on March 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by rifflesby at 8:40 PM on March 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
There was a short thread about God Emperor on FanFare lately.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 10:48 PM on March 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by TheophileEscargot at 10:48 PM on March 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
No Feyd/Sting/I WILL KILL YOU stuff, but nothing really came of that. Also nothing about Yueh or Duncan Idaho. Still though, pretty good.
posted by JHarris at 12:37 AM on March 13, 2016
posted by JHarris at 12:37 AM on March 13, 2016
Duncan Idaho is the part where my incessant ramblings about Dune would really make people glaze over, because:
"The only character who appears in all six books dies in the first book."
Also his name is Duncan Idaho, which sounds like a spokesman for some kind of potato donut yoyos.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 12:48 AM on March 13, 2016 [11 favorites]
"The only character who appears in all six books dies in the first book."
Also his name is Duncan Idaho, which sounds like a spokesman for some kind of potato donut yoyos.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 12:48 AM on March 13, 2016 [11 favorites]
because watching someone trying to explain Dune while drunk should be really, really fun.
I have done this.
More than once.
Last time, I started at bedogs, and went backwards from there.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 12:53 AM on March 13, 2016
I have done this.
More than once.
Last time, I started at bedogs, and went backwards from there.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 12:53 AM on March 13, 2016
There was somehow a kind of counterculture aura around the novel.....I suppose because of the connection to ecology? Kind of a Whole Earth Catalog thing. And there was kind of a consequent promotion of Herbert to the status of visionary genius and oracle of futurist rationality (what a great hunger for spiritual fathers and gurus and substitute Christs the hippies had!)
posted by thelonius at 1:40 AM on March 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by thelonius at 1:40 AM on March 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
conventional FTL engines
Way to elide there.
posted by MikeKD at 3:57 AM on March 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
Way to elide there.
posted by MikeKD at 3:57 AM on March 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
I hate to get nit-picky, but this includes a bunch of stuff from the books written by his son and that other guy, which are very very bad.
I have sort of a thing with dune, have read it more than 20 times, and while this was cute, I just can't ignore that it was probably produced not by someone who had read the books, but by someone who had read the dune wiki, or some such thing.
posted by stilgar at 8:44 AM on March 13, 2016
I have sort of a thing with dune, have read it more than 20 times, and while this was cute, I just can't ignore that it was probably produced not by someone who had read the books, but by someone who had read the dune wiki, or some such thing.
posted by stilgar at 8:44 AM on March 13, 2016
No Feyd/Sting/I WILL KILL YOU stuff
Not so! Feyd is clearly Harkonnen 2.0 right near the end, who says "could you fuck off, a bit, please" and then gets the ol' Red X.
I hate to get nit-picky, but this includes a bunch of stuff from the books written by his son and that other guy, which are very very bad.
I'm curious which bits are unambiguously from the blech Herbert The Younger rehashes? As someone who has avoided those entirely I didn't hear anything I didn't recognize, though a bunch of the backstory he mentions during his false starts does get covered not in Dune but in Willis McNelly's The Dune Encyclopedia (which is amaaaaazing, and contemporary to and approved by Frank though later disowned by The Herbert Estate because fuck The Herbert Estate).
posted by cortex at 9:52 AM on March 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Not so! Feyd is clearly Harkonnen 2.0 right near the end, who says "could you fuck off, a bit, please" and then gets the ol' Red X.
I hate to get nit-picky, but this includes a bunch of stuff from the books written by his son and that other guy, which are very very bad.
I'm curious which bits are unambiguously from the blech Herbert The Younger rehashes? As someone who has avoided those entirely I didn't hear anything I didn't recognize, though a bunch of the backstory he mentions during his false starts does get covered not in Dune but in Willis McNelly's The Dune Encyclopedia (which is amaaaaazing, and contemporary to and approved by Frank though later disowned by The Herbert Estate because fuck The Herbert Estate).
posted by cortex at 9:52 AM on March 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Way to elide there.
Hazily grappling, here: so the conventional FTL engine was invented several thousand years in the future vs. modern day, based on the work of an insane brain-in-a-jar genius, as a means to through hefty computation do predictive long-range jumps via some sort of induced folding-of-space mechanism. Pick a destination, crunch the hell out of some numbers to come up with a Pretty Good Guess about the exact stellar origami required, hit the button, and hope to gosh you come out where you thought you were going to instead of (a) really really not there or (b) maybe obliterated entirely, who knows.
"You probably won't die" wasn't great, but presumably the economic value of FTL galactic travel made it more than worth the risk in the big picture. But!
But then the human revolt against increasingly conniving/oppressive machine intelligences, the Butlerian Jihad (so called after instigating actor Jehanne Butler, whose daughter had been selectively aborted by a hospital's operating system for not being sufficient docile human-drone material), lead to the destruction of all the computers in the galaxy and a massive social taboo against the creation of more. Which really threw a wrench in the gears of space travel, since the computers made it possible.
Time passes, galactic dark ages as the human empire crumbles into individual solar systems again for all practical day-to-day purposes, and then eventually FTL travel comes back in a new form, powered by a tasty combination of the human brain (mentat discipline, basically) and the spice melange as a catalyzing/focusing prescient reagent. Instead of doing the math on an Ixian Cray or whatever, space navigators literally enter a prescient fugue and look at all the near-future possibilities for their space craft and choose one of the ones that ends up with them (a) where they want to be and (b) not horribly dead and shit.
The thing about the conventional FTL stuff is it's literally ancient history by the time the book happens; that's the stuff of over ten millenia past, pre-dating the Butlerian Jihad and the foundation of the current galactic empire, across the gap of a total collapse of broad-scale human continuity. Even insofar as lots of sci-fi books don't bother to try and explain how their miraculous computerized space travel works, Dune doesn't give a shit because that stuff hasn't even been used in 10,000 years. It's both a bit of a hand-wave and a nice narrative basis to get away with one.
posted by cortex at 10:13 AM on March 13, 2016 [14 favorites]
Hazily grappling, here: so the conventional FTL engine was invented several thousand years in the future vs. modern day, based on the work of an insane brain-in-a-jar genius, as a means to through hefty computation do predictive long-range jumps via some sort of induced folding-of-space mechanism. Pick a destination, crunch the hell out of some numbers to come up with a Pretty Good Guess about the exact stellar origami required, hit the button, and hope to gosh you come out where you thought you were going to instead of (a) really really not there or (b) maybe obliterated entirely, who knows.
"You probably won't die" wasn't great, but presumably the economic value of FTL galactic travel made it more than worth the risk in the big picture. But!
But then the human revolt against increasingly conniving/oppressive machine intelligences, the Butlerian Jihad (so called after instigating actor Jehanne Butler, whose daughter had been selectively aborted by a hospital's operating system for not being sufficient docile human-drone material), lead to the destruction of all the computers in the galaxy and a massive social taboo against the creation of more. Which really threw a wrench in the gears of space travel, since the computers made it possible.
Time passes, galactic dark ages as the human empire crumbles into individual solar systems again for all practical day-to-day purposes, and then eventually FTL travel comes back in a new form, powered by a tasty combination of the human brain (mentat discipline, basically) and the spice melange as a catalyzing/focusing prescient reagent. Instead of doing the math on an Ixian Cray or whatever, space navigators literally enter a prescient fugue and look at all the near-future possibilities for their space craft and choose one of the ones that ends up with them (a) where they want to be and (b) not horribly dead and shit.
The thing about the conventional FTL stuff is it's literally ancient history by the time the book happens; that's the stuff of over ten millenia past, pre-dating the Butlerian Jihad and the foundation of the current galactic empire, across the gap of a total collapse of broad-scale human continuity. Even insofar as lots of sci-fi books don't bother to try and explain how their miraculous computerized space travel works, Dune doesn't give a shit because that stuff hasn't even been used in 10,000 years. It's both a bit of a hand-wave and a nice narrative basis to get away with one.
posted by cortex at 10:13 AM on March 13, 2016 [14 favorites]
He who can destroy a thing, controls a thing.
"Yeah, that's swell, Paul. So, what happens tomorrow?"
"What?"
"Tomorrow. After you've destroyed the spice."
"I will load my Fremen army onto heighliners and attack Kaitain."
"OK. You've destroyed the spice. And you're on a heighliner. And then?"
"And then the Guild Navi....oh. Oh. Ohhhhhh..."
"Yeah."
"Yeah."
"OK, so let's talk about 'control.'"
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:28 AM on March 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
"Yeah, that's swell, Paul. So, what happens tomorrow?"
"What?"
"Tomorrow. After you've destroyed the spice."
"I will load my Fremen army onto heighliners and attack Kaitain."
"OK. You've destroyed the spice. And you're on a heighliner. And then?"
"And then the Guild Navi....oh. Oh. Ohhhhhh..."
"Yeah."
"Yeah."
"OK, so let's talk about 'control.'"
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:28 AM on March 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
He was literally willing to burn the whole thing down, is the thing. "But that's crazy" isn't an argument that alters the narrative. The whole premise is that he was a singularly motivated motherfucker willing to do the thing Shaddam IV wouldn't: tear the galaxy apart to make a point.
Shaddam would rather be deposed and live in exile with the comforts of diplomacy and a galactic economy to soothe him than to hold his ground and watch the galaxy go dark. Paul, on the other hand, had become fully integrated with the Fremen, a society so accustomed after thousands of years to the hardest-fought kind of subsistence and suffering in the face of an inhospitable desert planet that being trapped there for the next ten thousand years wasn't even a threat. It was home. Destroying space travel would only reinforce that, and for the Fremen that didn't mean "now you can't leave"; it meant "now there won't be more out-freyn bullshit like Harkonnens trying to kill or enslave you."
Paul was the leader of a people who truly, genuinely did not give a fuck if the galaxy outside of Arrakis ceased to exist. He was empowered to pull that trigger. And, given the nature of his prescient visions of jihad sweeping across the galaxy in his name, it's a fair bet he was halfway hoping that Shaddam would force him to pull that trigger. Destroying the galaxy would also save the galaxy from his terrible purpose. It'd have been a kind of relief.
Buy Herbert's narrative or don't, but any read of that final confrontation that takes as its premise that Paul was just bluffing based on a poorly-thought-through chain of logic is failing to engage with what was actually written.
posted by cortex at 10:45 AM on March 13, 2016 [24 favorites]
Shaddam would rather be deposed and live in exile with the comforts of diplomacy and a galactic economy to soothe him than to hold his ground and watch the galaxy go dark. Paul, on the other hand, had become fully integrated with the Fremen, a society so accustomed after thousands of years to the hardest-fought kind of subsistence and suffering in the face of an inhospitable desert planet that being trapped there for the next ten thousand years wasn't even a threat. It was home. Destroying space travel would only reinforce that, and for the Fremen that didn't mean "now you can't leave"; it meant "now there won't be more out-freyn bullshit like Harkonnens trying to kill or enslave you."
Paul was the leader of a people who truly, genuinely did not give a fuck if the galaxy outside of Arrakis ceased to exist. He was empowered to pull that trigger. And, given the nature of his prescient visions of jihad sweeping across the galaxy in his name, it's a fair bet he was halfway hoping that Shaddam would force him to pull that trigger. Destroying the galaxy would also save the galaxy from his terrible purpose. It'd have been a kind of relief.
Buy Herbert's narrative or don't, but any read of that final confrontation that takes as its premise that Paul was just bluffing based on a poorly-thought-through chain of logic is failing to engage with what was actually written.
posted by cortex at 10:45 AM on March 13, 2016 [24 favorites]
I was expecting the "no, wait, thousands of years before that" part to get to the Atreides being descended from/cursed because of Agamemnon from The Iliad and The Oresteia.
posted by Bigfoot Mandala at 10:49 AM on March 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Bigfoot Mandala at 10:49 AM on March 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Everyone thought Nixon was crazy. He deliberately cultivated it. Kissinger was going around telling people, I don't know what the guy's going to do next, and he's in charge of an arsenal that could literally destroy the world.
The U.S. still lost in Vietnam.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:09 AM on March 13, 2016
The U.S. still lost in Vietnam.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:09 AM on March 13, 2016
It wasn't just Paul using the "Crazy Fremen" routine in a hail mary attempt to intimidate the Emperor. He had prescience which led him to know what would best motivate the Shaddam into surrendering. If the spice destruction threat wasn't going to work in his visions of the future, he would have tried something else that did.
I like imagining Paul saying: "Emperor, when you were a child, you had a beloved stuffed panda named 'Count Paws'. Because of a minor childhood indiscretion, your mother punished you by taking Count Paws and claimed she destroyed it. She did not destroy it and intended to return it to you but... she forgot about it. I am the Kwisatz Haderach. I know where Count Paws is. Relinquish your throne to me and Count Paws will return to your embrace." And even though everyone in the throne room, including the Fremen, are completely horrified and kinda embarrassed for Paul, to everyone's surprise the Emperor breaks down in tears, is reunited with Count Paws, and Emperor Paul gets to start the Jihad.
Though it would have been interesting if Shaddam had tried to call Paul's "bluff". The Fremen would have started destroying the spice. But they're only stopping the production. There still has to be tons and tons of the stuff in storage. The Guild would have their own strategic reserves. The Imperial Court, Bene Gesserit and various Houses would as well. Lots of it will be in the distribution network, working its way on freighters or in storage sites waiting for final delivery to customers. Maybe even some tied up in some sort of futures market. There's enough to keep going for years.
So maybe this ends up being the ultimate end of the Butlerian Jihad. The Guild and others dig out the dusty old manuscripts and records of how to build and maintain computers. This seems like something the Bene Gesserit would have on hand in their secret vaults and they probably already have a team of engineers and programmers working in extreme secrecy. Or maybe the Guild works out a way to do their navigation with banks and banks of mentats. Probably would be massive programs started to not only rebuild computers, but also to either synthesize spice or restart the spice cycle on another planet. Some House or faction probably has a bunch of dormant sand trout in a freezer. Stored in case something like this ever happened. Probably some work has also been done on how to replicate spice in the lab, but was never used because there was too much money and power to be gained from the trade of actual spice.
The empire probably collapses. Humanity probably finds a way to keep space travel going, albeit less safely and more expensively than before. Paul gets remembered as a saint by some, and a demon by others, but all sides agree he was the one who ended a golden age. The Jihad never happens but is replaced by something far more chaotic and bloody.
posted by honestcoyote at 1:25 PM on March 13, 2016 [9 favorites]
I like imagining Paul saying: "Emperor, when you were a child, you had a beloved stuffed panda named 'Count Paws'. Because of a minor childhood indiscretion, your mother punished you by taking Count Paws and claimed she destroyed it. She did not destroy it and intended to return it to you but... she forgot about it. I am the Kwisatz Haderach. I know where Count Paws is. Relinquish your throne to me and Count Paws will return to your embrace." And even though everyone in the throne room, including the Fremen, are completely horrified and kinda embarrassed for Paul, to everyone's surprise the Emperor breaks down in tears, is reunited with Count Paws, and Emperor Paul gets to start the Jihad.
Though it would have been interesting if Shaddam had tried to call Paul's "bluff". The Fremen would have started destroying the spice. But they're only stopping the production. There still has to be tons and tons of the stuff in storage. The Guild would have their own strategic reserves. The Imperial Court, Bene Gesserit and various Houses would as well. Lots of it will be in the distribution network, working its way on freighters or in storage sites waiting for final delivery to customers. Maybe even some tied up in some sort of futures market. There's enough to keep going for years.
So maybe this ends up being the ultimate end of the Butlerian Jihad. The Guild and others dig out the dusty old manuscripts and records of how to build and maintain computers. This seems like something the Bene Gesserit would have on hand in their secret vaults and they probably already have a team of engineers and programmers working in extreme secrecy. Or maybe the Guild works out a way to do their navigation with banks and banks of mentats. Probably would be massive programs started to not only rebuild computers, but also to either synthesize spice or restart the spice cycle on another planet. Some House or faction probably has a bunch of dormant sand trout in a freezer. Stored in case something like this ever happened. Probably some work has also been done on how to replicate spice in the lab, but was never used because there was too much money and power to be gained from the trade of actual spice.
The empire probably collapses. Humanity probably finds a way to keep space travel going, albeit less safely and more expensively than before. Paul gets remembered as a saint by some, and a demon by others, but all sides agree he was the one who ended a golden age. The Jihad never happens but is replaced by something far more chaotic and bloody.
posted by honestcoyote at 1:25 PM on March 13, 2016 [9 favorites]
That was like irritating and unclever. I hope this meme like goes away soon.
posted by Liquidwolf at 1:33 PM on March 13, 2016
posted by Liquidwolf at 1:33 PM on March 13, 2016
This morning I saw a red SUV with a MUADDIB vanity license plate, and I thought 'hey, isn't there a Dune thread up at MeFi right now? I bet they'll like that.'
So I hope you do.
posted by nonasuch at 2:01 PM on March 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
So I hope you do.
posted by nonasuch at 2:01 PM on March 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
honestcoyote, you might be interested in reading the second trio of books, based on that line of speculation.
posted by cortex at 4:21 PM on March 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by cortex at 4:21 PM on March 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
best motivate Shaddam into surrendering
See, I think that conflates "what Paul knew" with "what Frank Herbert knew." There is zero rational economic basis to Paul and Shaddam's decisions. Herbert displays a cartoon view of reality here, and because it's all otherwise wrapped in realpolitik intrigue, it falls right into the uncanny valley for me. This is the same narrative territory as George Lucas and the Trade Federation, where hinting at reality only makes everything worse. Contrast this with George R.R. Martin, who understands this deeply -- either do it well or don't do it at all.
Logically, rationally, the moment Paul threatens to destroy the spice is the moment that the Spacing Guild bugs out, only to return with all the forces of the Landsraad behind them. Shaddam has more to fear from them than from Paul. Consider again how Martin handles all the intrigue and scrambling for power, where the motivations of all the nobles of Westeros actually make sense.
Honestly, the best analogous parallel to Paul's existential threat to the Landsraad governance is the real world game theory that went on during the Cold War.
But Herbert had his head in the sci-fi clouds and didn't pay any attention to what really could've deepened his work.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:22 PM on March 13, 2016
See, I think that conflates "what Paul knew" with "what Frank Herbert knew." There is zero rational economic basis to Paul and Shaddam's decisions. Herbert displays a cartoon view of reality here, and because it's all otherwise wrapped in realpolitik intrigue, it falls right into the uncanny valley for me. This is the same narrative territory as George Lucas and the Trade Federation, where hinting at reality only makes everything worse. Contrast this with George R.R. Martin, who understands this deeply -- either do it well or don't do it at all.
Logically, rationally, the moment Paul threatens to destroy the spice is the moment that the Spacing Guild bugs out, only to return with all the forces of the Landsraad behind them. Shaddam has more to fear from them than from Paul. Consider again how Martin handles all the intrigue and scrambling for power, where the motivations of all the nobles of Westeros actually make sense.
Honestly, the best analogous parallel to Paul's existential threat to the Landsraad governance is the real world game theory that went on during the Cold War.
But Herbert had his head in the sci-fi clouds and didn't pay any attention to what really could've deepened his work.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:22 PM on March 13, 2016
You make good points Cool Papa Bell, but you're ignoring the woo factor, i.e. Paul's prescience. He knows how the Emperor is going to respond. He knows how the Spacing Guild will respond. Paul probably doesn't even worry too much about whether or not he would order the Fremen to carry out the threat. That part doesn't matter because he already knows his enemies will fold.
If the Spacing Guild was going to panic and bug out, and/or if the Emperor thinks it's a bluff and tries to call it, then Paul would have simply used another threat or offer which would have given him the result he wanted. He probably wouldn't have made the destruction threat at all in that scenario.
I can understand if the woo factor takes you out of the book, but the encounter played perfectly to Paul's powers and strengths, as established by the previous 400 pages of the book, and feels realistic within the context of the universe Herbert created.
posted by honestcoyote at 5:00 PM on March 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
If the Spacing Guild was going to panic and bug out, and/or if the Emperor thinks it's a bluff and tries to call it, then Paul would have simply used another threat or offer which would have given him the result he wanted. He probably wouldn't have made the destruction threat at all in that scenario.
I can understand if the woo factor takes you out of the book, but the encounter played perfectly to Paul's powers and strengths, as established by the previous 400 pages of the book, and feels realistic within the context of the universe Herbert created.
posted by honestcoyote at 5:00 PM on March 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
See, I think that conflates "what Paul knew" with "what Frank Herbert knew."
Again, this feels like you're imagining a different book than the one that is publicly available. One of the structurally really interesting things about Dune, however much one may think it's literarily effective or not, is the degree to which the distinction between authorial intent and character knowledge is collapsed. It's a book where major plot points—things that would be dramatic twists in almost any other otherwise similar story—are essentially forecast by every principal character before they happen. The goddam book opens with Mohiam and Jessica discussion how fuckin' doomed Leto is, while Paul pretends to sleep and listen in; later, Leto himself confirms that he knows the same shit. Dune is either appalling or daring or both for undercutting its own narrative swerves by pre-swerving them in exposition.
So there's no conflating what Herbert knew and what Paul knew. Paul knew just about everything the moment he first got a dose of spice, and a lot of it before that. To say otherwise is to forget the literal text of the book under discussion. Paul isn't Nixon, Stilgar isn't Kissinger, and Vietnam is not some metaphorical shadow over the text of a book written before it ever happened.
posted by cortex at 5:00 PM on March 13, 2016 [9 favorites]
Again, this feels like you're imagining a different book than the one that is publicly available. One of the structurally really interesting things about Dune, however much one may think it's literarily effective or not, is the degree to which the distinction between authorial intent and character knowledge is collapsed. It's a book where major plot points—things that would be dramatic twists in almost any other otherwise similar story—are essentially forecast by every principal character before they happen. The goddam book opens with Mohiam and Jessica discussion how fuckin' doomed Leto is, while Paul pretends to sleep and listen in; later, Leto himself confirms that he knows the same shit. Dune is either appalling or daring or both for undercutting its own narrative swerves by pre-swerving them in exposition.
So there's no conflating what Herbert knew and what Paul knew. Paul knew just about everything the moment he first got a dose of spice, and a lot of it before that. To say otherwise is to forget the literal text of the book under discussion. Paul isn't Nixon, Stilgar isn't Kissinger, and Vietnam is not some metaphorical shadow over the text of a book written before it ever happened.
posted by cortex at 5:00 PM on March 13, 2016 [9 favorites]
He knows how the Spacing Guild will respond.
Paul doesn't know how Navigators will respond - they're blind spots in his prescience (which is why the conspirators have to have a Navigator with them in Messiah). Granted, not everyone in the Spacing Guild is a Navigator, but it is an important limitation to his power.
In the Dune universe, the Spacing Guild would own everything overnight.
One of the major themes of Dune is factions thinking they're all-powerful, testing that power, and finding out that they weren't actually all-powerful after all. Other methods of FTL travel exist, the current arrange at the time of Dune is that spice-enabled FTL is the most economically and politically/ideology suitable. If the Spacing Guild made this kind of ultimatum, or there was a need for vastly expanded access to FTL, it wouldn't take long for the other methods of FTL to make a return and for the Guild to become a tiny faction amongst many. Which ends up happening later in the series.
Logically, rationally, the moment Paul threatens to destroy the spice is the moment that the Spacing Guild bugs out, only to return with all the forces of the Landsraad behind them.
Then Paul, having secured the Atreides nuclear arsenal and demonstrated his access and willingness to use nuclear weapons in the battle for Arrakeen, blows up Dune. Are you willing to risk the slow death of your species, or just work for a new Emperor? That's the choice that the Spacing Guild faces, and it's not hard to see why the logical, rational decision is to work with Paul.
posted by kithrater at 5:20 PM on March 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
Paul doesn't know how Navigators will respond - they're blind spots in his prescience (which is why the conspirators have to have a Navigator with them in Messiah). Granted, not everyone in the Spacing Guild is a Navigator, but it is an important limitation to his power.
In the Dune universe, the Spacing Guild would own everything overnight.
One of the major themes of Dune is factions thinking they're all-powerful, testing that power, and finding out that they weren't actually all-powerful after all. Other methods of FTL travel exist, the current arrange at the time of Dune is that spice-enabled FTL is the most economically and politically/ideology suitable. If the Spacing Guild made this kind of ultimatum, or there was a need for vastly expanded access to FTL, it wouldn't take long for the other methods of FTL to make a return and for the Guild to become a tiny faction amongst many. Which ends up happening later in the series.
Logically, rationally, the moment Paul threatens to destroy the spice is the moment that the Spacing Guild bugs out, only to return with all the forces of the Landsraad behind them.
Then Paul, having secured the Atreides nuclear arsenal and demonstrated his access and willingness to use nuclear weapons in the battle for Arrakeen, blows up Dune. Are you willing to risk the slow death of your species, or just work for a new Emperor? That's the choice that the Spacing Guild faces, and it's not hard to see why the logical, rational decision is to work with Paul.
posted by kithrater at 5:20 PM on March 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
Paul doesn't know how Navigators will respond
You're right. It's been too long since I read the books. I had forgotten that part.
posted by honestcoyote at 6:11 PM on March 13, 2016
You're right. It's been too long since I read the books. I had forgotten that part.
posted by honestcoyote at 6:11 PM on March 13, 2016
Cool Papa Bell: The motivations in Dune are only incoherent if you believe people are first and always rational actors, and that they are first and always seeking to rationally maximize utility. A huge theme in Dune is about primal loyalties and motivations, faith, family, tribe, and what happens when you get caught up in them.
In the Dune universe, the Spacing Guild would own everything overnight.
That was something Paul discussed. The Spacing Guild had deliberately chosen not to seize power and instead exert influence through the empire and the great houses. They were prescient enough to see that owning everything would lead to a rebellion, and their ultimate destruction IIRC the line is: "they could have had their moment in the sun then died". The problem is that this left the guild unprepared for something like Paul turning up and grabbing them by the throat.
Logically, rationally, the moment Paul threatens to destroy the spice is the moment that the Spacing Guild bugs out, only to return with all the forces of the Landsraad behind them.
The entire Landsraad were already in orbit around Dune. The guild had lowered its rates to let anyone who wanted too come and raid in the hopes of crushing the Fremen and preventing disruption of the supply of the Spice. On Dune you had an army that was kicking the snot out of the Sardaukar, themselves stronger than any combination of Landsraad armies, lead by a Messiah who could see the future, and had the means to end galactic civilization. Even if the guild decided he was bluffing, they had no troops of their own. Who among the great houses was going to step up and say "My armies can win where the Emperor's finest lost." Who's going to be the first to put boots the ground?
posted by Grimgrin at 9:39 PM on March 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
In the Dune universe, the Spacing Guild would own everything overnight.
That was something Paul discussed. The Spacing Guild had deliberately chosen not to seize power and instead exert influence through the empire and the great houses. They were prescient enough to see that owning everything would lead to a rebellion, and their ultimate destruction IIRC the line is: "they could have had their moment in the sun then died". The problem is that this left the guild unprepared for something like Paul turning up and grabbing them by the throat.
Logically, rationally, the moment Paul threatens to destroy the spice is the moment that the Spacing Guild bugs out, only to return with all the forces of the Landsraad behind them.
The entire Landsraad were already in orbit around Dune. The guild had lowered its rates to let anyone who wanted too come and raid in the hopes of crushing the Fremen and preventing disruption of the supply of the Spice. On Dune you had an army that was kicking the snot out of the Sardaukar, themselves stronger than any combination of Landsraad armies, lead by a Messiah who could see the future, and had the means to end galactic civilization. Even if the guild decided he was bluffing, they had no troops of their own. Who among the great houses was going to step up and say "My armies can win where the Emperor's finest lost." Who's going to be the first to put boots the ground?
posted by Grimgrin at 9:39 PM on March 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
On Dune you had an army that was kicking the snot out of the Sardaukar, themselves stronger than any combination of Landsraad armies, lead by a Messiah who could see the future, and had the means to end galactic civilization
Not quite. The Emperor with the Sardaukar could take on any of the great houses and win easily, and most of them and barely win, but the balance between the Landsraad and the Emperor was that if the Sardaukar tried to take down all of them at once, the Emperor would fail.
Thus the shock of seeing the Sardaukar lose so quickly and badly to the Fremen, because the Landsraad knew they could just barely take down the Sardaukar if they all worked together -- and that meant they knew they could *not* stop the Fremen, period.
At least, not without Atomics -- but then you're nuking Arrakis and killing the sandworms and oops, no spice!
posted by eriko at 10:44 PM on March 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
Not quite. The Emperor with the Sardaukar could take on any of the great houses and win easily, and most of them and barely win, but the balance between the Landsraad and the Emperor was that if the Sardaukar tried to take down all of them at once, the Emperor would fail.
Thus the shock of seeing the Sardaukar lose so quickly and badly to the Fremen, because the Landsraad knew they could just barely take down the Sardaukar if they all worked together -- and that meant they knew they could *not* stop the Fremen, period.
At least, not without Atomics -- but then you're nuking Arrakis and killing the sandworms and oops, no spice!
posted by eriko at 10:44 PM on March 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
Guys, guys, there's a simple way to resolve all these questions.
posted by JHarris at 11:01 PM on March 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by JHarris at 11:01 PM on March 13, 2016 [4 favorites]
How did they travel through space before the discovery of spice?
A.I.
posted by Brocktoon at 11:54 PM on March 13, 2016
A.I.
posted by Brocktoon at 11:54 PM on March 13, 2016
Way to elide there.
Hazily grappling, here...
Thanks for that, even though I meant my comment to be somewhat snarky and a throw away. :)
posted by MikeKD at 1:20 AM on March 14, 2016
Hazily grappling, here...
Thanks for that, even though I meant my comment to be somewhat snarky and a throw away. :)
posted by MikeKD at 1:20 AM on March 14, 2016
Speaking of shit, I am disgusted that no one has mentioned Kevin J. Anderson yet.
posted by Vicarious at 5:16 PM on March 14, 2016
posted by Vicarious at 5:16 PM on March 14, 2016
Speaking of shit, I am disgusted that no one has mentioned Kevin J. Anderson yet.
posted by sparklemotion at 6:46 PM on March 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
I hate to get nit-picky, but this includes a bunch of stuff from the books written by his son and that other guy, which are very very bad.There was no need to actually name him.
posted by stilgar at 10:44 AM on March 13 [+] [!]
posted by sparklemotion at 6:46 PM on March 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
His name is a killing word.
posted by Artw at 6:52 PM on March 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:52 PM on March 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
Kevin, Kevin, Kevin! A million deaths were not enough for Kevin!
posted by Grimgrin at 10:34 PM on March 14, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Grimgrin at 10:34 PM on March 14, 2016 [4 favorites]
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