Girls Who Steal
March 28, 2016 11:10 AM Subscribe
As girls, we grow up learning not to trust other women, because we're told there are only so many opportunities to go around, only so many good men to be had, only so much beauty to be shared. We are lied to.
I think a large part of what I love about Elena Ferrante's Neapolitan novels is their absolute realism in portraying exactly this, not in a Mean Girls kind of way where the mean girl eventually gets her comeuppance, but as part of the scratching and clawing and grasping and pushing and striving of life. Where you push your friend down and the next week she pushes you down and the week after that you hold her while she cries after a miscarriage. And then you block her on social media because you just can't take her shit anymore and then she reaches out and you both apologize. And then the next week someone pushes someone else down again. There's no narrative arc, it's just life.
I actually started to type this before I reached the end of the article. When I reached it I said Yes, that's it.
posted by sunset in snow country at 11:35 AM on March 28, 2016 [24 favorites]
I actually started to type this before I reached the end of the article. When I reached it I said Yes, that's it.
posted by sunset in snow country at 11:35 AM on March 28, 2016 [24 favorites]
Shit like this is why I'll choose hanging out with my dog over people every time. I don't get it, I've never gotten it, and when I read comments like sunset in snow country's I remember that mostly it's because I don't want to.
posted by phunniemee at 11:42 AM on March 28, 2016 [37 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 11:42 AM on March 28, 2016 [37 favorites]
At work, I share a small space with two women who are younger then me by about 5 years. We're all equal in terms of hierarchy, although I'm the senior member. By and large they're both wonderful people.. but I spend a great deal of time hyper aware that they could be scrutinizing everything I do or say to use as ammo against me later.
My work productivity suffers from it.
The worst part is, I can't say I'd feel the same way if they were men.
posted by INFJ at 11:42 AM on March 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
My work productivity suffers from it.
The worst part is, I can't say I'd feel the same way if they were men.
posted by INFJ at 11:42 AM on March 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
I'm just now, in my late 30s, realizing that I don't have many female friendships. I was afraid of getting burned or being someone to be made fun of in my high school years and most of my 20s. (Also overhearing the level of cattiness my sister and her friends expended on girls they claimed as close friends helped.) I guess I don't know how to be a female friend in the sense I see some very cool people be. I am envious, but being socially anxious and shy, I have no idea how to go about being able to form these lifetime female friendships.
I have dropped female friends when it seemed like it was only because they wanted something from me; once I gave it, then it radio silence until the next time.
posted by Kitteh at 11:45 AM on March 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
I have dropped female friends when it seemed like it was only because they wanted something from me; once I gave it, then it radio silence until the next time.
posted by Kitteh at 11:45 AM on March 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
Most frequently, we categorize this behavior as general cattiness. I asked my friends: "Do you have any men friends who make catty comments that fall just this side of mean, just enough so that you can't call them on it without seeming paranoid?" Many of the women said yes. The men didn't understand what I meant right away, so I tried again, saying "Sometimes it masquerades as a compliment, but it's definitely not a compliment." When the men finally understood what I was driving at, they said No, of course they didn't have friends who made them feel small. They said it with confidence, with incredulity at the idea that anybody would have that kind of friend. What kind of friends would they be?
It's tempting to think that men are better than women: nobler, kinder. I want you to understand that's not what I'm saying. Women are raised to be careful of other women, because women are catty, jealous creatures, always stealing things from each other: jobs, men, beauty, self-esteem.
The article is lovely, but this part confused me. The juxtaposition of "do you have any men friends who make catty comments?" and women going "oh, yes!" while men go "what? no"... and then the article goes on to behave as if we're thinking that men are better than women, because men don't.... get hurt? Even as they make their own cutting, catty comments? Is there an obvious typo I'm missing?
posted by sciatrix at 11:47 AM on March 28, 2016 [15 favorites]
It's tempting to think that men are better than women: nobler, kinder. I want you to understand that's not what I'm saying. Women are raised to be careful of other women, because women are catty, jealous creatures, always stealing things from each other: jobs, men, beauty, self-esteem.
The article is lovely, but this part confused me. The juxtaposition of "do you have any men friends who make catty comments?" and women going "oh, yes!" while men go "what? no"... and then the article goes on to behave as if we're thinking that men are better than women, because men don't.... get hurt? Even as they make their own cutting, catty comments? Is there an obvious typo I'm missing?
posted by sciatrix at 11:47 AM on March 28, 2016 [15 favorites]
I hasten to add: The woman I was thinking of when I wrote that comment, the one who, for those who have read the books, is my Lila - I cut her the fuck out of my life and have felt light as air ever since. And I am meticulous about surrounding myself with people who are good-hearted and secure and won't whisper into my ear about my deepest insecurities. Thanks to years of effort, I have a lot of them in my life and they bring me joy. But sometimes you still encounter those people who do this because they have never learned any other way to operate - a dear friend deals with this constantly from her mother and sister, for one example - and when I try to make sense of it all, Elena Ferrante makes me feel like I'm not crazy.
Also sciatrix, that confused the shit out of me too, but I think "men friends" was a typo for "mean friends."
posted by sunset in snow country at 11:50 AM on March 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
Also sciatrix, that confused the shit out of me too, but I think "men friends" was a typo for "mean friends."
posted by sunset in snow country at 11:50 AM on March 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
That part confused me too, sciatrix, because of course men have friends like that. "Hey, doofus!" they cry as they see each other, "Gonna strike out three times at softball again this week?" "At least I won't be driving the car my parents gave me in high school to the game!" General merriment all around.
posted by Etrigan at 11:51 AM on March 28, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 11:51 AM on March 28, 2016 [13 favorites]
This is fantastically written. Thanks for posting it.
posted by missmary6 at 11:53 AM on March 28, 2016
posted by missmary6 at 11:53 AM on March 28, 2016
I don't relate to most of the article AT ALL. Who are all these women who "steal" (either objects or self-esteem) from their friends? It seems like a foreign country to me. The only aspect that I can relate to is the bit about women competing with each other in terms of physical attractiveness (b/c of socio-cultural pressures), but I still don't identify with it happening in terms of verbal sparring at the interpersonal level. If anything, my female friends bolster each other's self-esteem, we don't tear each other down.
So for those of you who identify with the behaviour in this article, maybe get some new friends? These kind of women are NOT the norm.
posted by Halo in reverse at 11:53 AM on March 28, 2016 [36 favorites]
So for those of you who identify with the behaviour in this article, maybe get some new friends? These kind of women are NOT the norm.
posted by Halo in reverse at 11:53 AM on March 28, 2016 [36 favorites]
"It's so bold of you to wear that! It's great that you're not worried about your grades! Where do you get your confidence? None of these comments seem devastating on paper, but in person they're a one-two punch to your heart. "
The sole good thing the PUA community has given the world is a word for this -- negging. Once I had a word to apply to it, it stopped being hurtful and became ABSURD. When someone pulls this shit on me these days, I literally laugh out loud because they are so stupidly insecure they're pulling this childish psychological trick. And, PS, it really throws neggers (male or female) off their stride when you LAUGH HEARTILY at their neg, and them.
I've said it before, but living in an all-women's dorm (with a supervising nun) in college cleared my girl-friendship issues right the hell up. Having a healthy, supportive, feminist environment without men around to commentate on our actions or to place value on us or for us to try to impress cleared up all my high-school "mean girl" issues because it made it so easy to interact with women as people instead of within these really toxic gender roles. A+++ would cloister again.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:55 AM on March 28, 2016 [74 favorites]
The sole good thing the PUA community has given the world is a word for this -- negging. Once I had a word to apply to it, it stopped being hurtful and became ABSURD. When someone pulls this shit on me these days, I literally laugh out loud because they are so stupidly insecure they're pulling this childish psychological trick. And, PS, it really throws neggers (male or female) off their stride when you LAUGH HEARTILY at their neg, and them.
I've said it before, but living in an all-women's dorm (with a supervising nun) in college cleared my girl-friendship issues right the hell up. Having a healthy, supportive, feminist environment without men around to commentate on our actions or to place value on us or for us to try to impress cleared up all my high-school "mean girl" issues because it made it so easy to interact with women as people instead of within these really toxic gender roles. A+++ would cloister again.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:55 AM on March 28, 2016 [74 favorites]
For me, the "stealing" in terms of self-esteem didn't resonate at all from my friends, but it certainly did from coworkers and from some women in my family. Normal or not, it's not exactly uncommon, and as Eyebrows says--putting words to that kind of thing is really, really helpful when it comes to spotting it.
posted by sciatrix at 11:57 AM on March 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by sciatrix at 11:57 AM on March 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I have such rich female friendships. I think that was a great side effect of not getting g married until much later in life. I do notice that many mean games (and i was guilty of some) dwindled as we got older. I liked this article a lot. I do wonder how it would be though as the author ages (being in law school reads as stoll young to me). I also think that some of being around friends who can be cutting is related to groups. These women were in law school...I've had to recently suck up being minimally around parents I don't care for. Otherwise my friend group at this point is quite carefully curated
posted by biggreenplant at 12:02 PM on March 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by biggreenplant at 12:02 PM on March 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I suspect I have unintentionally negged when complimenting women on risky fashion choices. Because I am impressed by people with a distinct personal style, even if is not a style I would wear.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 12:02 PM on March 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 12:02 PM on March 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've dealt with the stealing in the form of self esteem, ad in the form of things.
The woman who was my best friend who was helping me pack to move after my husband and I split up... I asked her to help me not lose a couple of things in the move, to help me keep them safe.
It was five years before I realized she stole my mother's wedding pearls. It was another 4 before I told my mom they were gone. I'm still angry about that.
I am so so so lucky to have friendships with wonderful women. After spending my 20's and 30's in competition for things that didn't exist or didn't need to be fought for, it is a relief. That kind of negativity is exhausting and terrible for the psyche.
I still have to deal with women like this, but now that I see what they are I am wary and careful.
posted by bibliogrrl at 12:05 PM on March 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
The woman who was my best friend who was helping me pack to move after my husband and I split up... I asked her to help me not lose a couple of things in the move, to help me keep them safe.
It was five years before I realized she stole my mother's wedding pearls. It was another 4 before I told my mom they were gone. I'm still angry about that.
I am so so so lucky to have friendships with wonderful women. After spending my 20's and 30's in competition for things that didn't exist or didn't need to be fought for, it is a relief. That kind of negativity is exhausting and terrible for the psyche.
I still have to deal with women like this, but now that I see what they are I am wary and careful.
posted by bibliogrrl at 12:05 PM on March 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Guys can say catty stuff to other guys too. Maybe the difference is that we guys pretend it doesn't matter, are quick to end these friendships or react more aggressively to keep each other in line?
posted by Foci for Analysis at 12:05 PM on March 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Foci for Analysis at 12:05 PM on March 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
When I think of "stealing" in terms of self-esteem, I think of a few male friends I have had. I suspect that is because I figured out how to avoid those relationships with women, but am still figuring that out with respect to men.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 12:09 PM on March 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 12:09 PM on March 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
That part confused me too, sciatrix, because of course men have friends like that. "Hey, doofus!" they cry as they see each other, "Gonna strike out three times at softball again this week?" "At least I won't be driving the car my parents gave me in high school to the game!" General merriment all around.
But that's just the point. These are loud, overt expressions of mockery which are not taken to heart (hence, the general merriment). I'm a guy and I've seen what happens when a guy says something genuinely hurtful or insulting to another guy, or even implies it. It usually leads to a very overt, often physically violent confrontation. Working as a mover a few years ago, especially, I was in an environment where homosexual slurs and implied mild physical violence were fairly normal ways to greet coworkers - but I also these lead to immediate rage and confrontation when they were obviously meant to sting, or when they were directed at someone who wasn't good friends with whoever flung them. "Fuck you, motherfucker" was the most purely contextual phrase in the vocabulary there.
Whereas in the interaction with Emma earlier in the story, Emma obviously intended to wound, and to make the wound obvious to everyone else who was witnessing it - and the latter, as well as the target, were expected to pretend that nothing offensive had taken place. That would have resulted, between two males back at the Two Men and a Truck station, with the target getting in her face immediately and explicitly about it. I mean this isn't universal among men everywhere, but it is a norm within a significant portion of the male population.
The author is pointing to a difference in the norms between genders. Women are expected to perform emotional maintenance on relationships that include various forms of genuine hurtfulness ("theft" of confidence, of happiness, etc.). Men can simply force a confrontation and a reevaluation of the relationship and have that perceived not only as acceptable but in fact laudable. I'm not particularly confrontational myself, but I'd have felt perfectly comfortable asking Emma precisely what the hell she was implying in that situation. Many women wouldn't. They're expected not to. To be nice, as the author puts it, and nice in our society is often a code word for taking your damage, biting your teeth, and smiling.
posted by AdamCSnider at 12:10 PM on March 28, 2016 [21 favorites]
But that's just the point. These are loud, overt expressions of mockery which are not taken to heart (hence, the general merriment). I'm a guy and I've seen what happens when a guy says something genuinely hurtful or insulting to another guy, or even implies it. It usually leads to a very overt, often physically violent confrontation. Working as a mover a few years ago, especially, I was in an environment where homosexual slurs and implied mild physical violence were fairly normal ways to greet coworkers - but I also these lead to immediate rage and confrontation when they were obviously meant to sting, or when they were directed at someone who wasn't good friends with whoever flung them. "Fuck you, motherfucker" was the most purely contextual phrase in the vocabulary there.
Whereas in the interaction with Emma earlier in the story, Emma obviously intended to wound, and to make the wound obvious to everyone else who was witnessing it - and the latter, as well as the target, were expected to pretend that nothing offensive had taken place. That would have resulted, between two males back at the Two Men and a Truck station, with the target getting in her face immediately and explicitly about it. I mean this isn't universal among men everywhere, but it is a norm within a significant portion of the male population.
The author is pointing to a difference in the norms between genders. Women are expected to perform emotional maintenance on relationships that include various forms of genuine hurtfulness ("theft" of confidence, of happiness, etc.). Men can simply force a confrontation and a reevaluation of the relationship and have that perceived not only as acceptable but in fact laudable. I'm not particularly confrontational myself, but I'd have felt perfectly comfortable asking Emma precisely what the hell she was implying in that situation. Many women wouldn't. They're expected not to. To be nice, as the author puts it, and nice in our society is often a code word for taking your damage, biting your teeth, and smiling.
posted by AdamCSnider at 12:10 PM on March 28, 2016 [21 favorites]
That part confused me too, sciatrix, because of course men have friends like that. "Hey, doofus!" they cry as they see each other, "Gonna strike out three times at softball again this week?" "At least I won't be driving the car my parents gave me in high school to the game!" General merriment all around.
This kind of thing, among men (in the USA, at least), is usually veiled affection. It's a pretty well documented form of playful friendship, and not at all the same dynamic as in this post. Women don't typically do "insults mean I like you," the way it occurs between men.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 12:12 PM on March 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
This kind of thing, among men (in the USA, at least), is usually veiled affection. It's a pretty well documented form of playful friendship, and not at all the same dynamic as in this post. Women don't typically do "insults mean I like you," the way it occurs between men.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 12:12 PM on March 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
Thanks for posting this, it's great.
There's a comment thread there where people are listing memorable catty insults. It's fascinating - a lot of them are outrageous, and a lot of them are really familiar (and some are both, lolololololol). I have a wonderful, supportive group of female friends now, in my early 30s, but it took me a(n embarrassingly) long time to shake off the distrust left from the 'girls who steal' in middle and high school.
The man thing is curious - I know a couple of dudes who are always like "we all make fun of each other!" but the insults to the women are always WAY worse than their insults to other dudes.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 12:16 PM on March 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
There's a comment thread there where people are listing memorable catty insults. It's fascinating - a lot of them are outrageous, and a lot of them are really familiar (and some are both, lolololololol). I have a wonderful, supportive group of female friends now, in my early 30s, but it took me a(n embarrassingly) long time to shake off the distrust left from the 'girls who steal' in middle and high school.
The man thing is curious - I know a couple of dudes who are always like "we all make fun of each other!" but the insults to the women are always WAY worse than their insults to other dudes.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 12:16 PM on March 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Many women wouldn't. They're expected not to. To be nice, as the author puts it, and nice in our society is often a code word for taking your damage, biting your teeth, and smiling.
cf. Every time you were given the advice "kill them with kindness" when asking adults for help dealing with mean kids (girls) growing up.
posted by phunniemee at 12:17 PM on March 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
cf. Every time you were given the advice "kill them with kindness" when asking adults for help dealing with mean kids (girls) growing up.
posted by phunniemee at 12:17 PM on March 28, 2016 [12 favorites]
And I just remembered that I know a woman who is 12 years older than I am who STILL does this shit. STILL. Acts like everyone is her BFF, and talks shit behind their backs. But unless she did it to you, you would never ever believe she was that kind of person. She is poison in the well, and I avoid her as much as possible now.
I have no idea what her motivation is. *sigh*
posted by bibliogrrl at 12:25 PM on March 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
I have no idea what her motivation is. *sigh*
posted by bibliogrrl at 12:25 PM on March 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
Goddamn I love my friends.
posted by Space Kitty at 12:28 PM on March 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Space Kitty at 12:28 PM on March 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
bibliogrrl I've explained to you my grandmother, right? Some people are perfectly content to do this forever. My grandma is still doing this all the way into her 90s. (Sitting at a table with a group of her friends playing cards is just torture. Not only are they catty, but they forget the mean thing they just said 20 seconds prior so go on and repeat it, only louder this time because Nadine's losing her hearing, which they'll also gladly point out to you right in front of her face juuuust under the threshold of audibility.)
posted by phunniemee at 12:30 PM on March 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by phunniemee at 12:30 PM on March 28, 2016 [8 favorites]
I suspect I have unintentionally negged when complimenting women on risky fashion choices. Because I am impressed by people with a distinct personal style, even if is not a style I would wear.
Yeah, same here. A couple of years ago I briefly dated a woman whose OKCupid profile included a photo of herself with a shaved head, which she had done as part of a cancer fundraiser several months before and had since grown out into a cute pixie cut. I thought the shaved head was actually a really striking and attractive look that really brought out her eyes, but what came out of my mouth was: "Wow, that was really brave of you, I know a lot of guys don't like women with short hair." I don't remember what was said next, but really there's no coming back from that.
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:30 PM on March 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, same here. A couple of years ago I briefly dated a woman whose OKCupid profile included a photo of herself with a shaved head, which she had done as part of a cancer fundraiser several months before and had since grown out into a cute pixie cut. I thought the shaved head was actually a really striking and attractive look that really brought out her eyes, but what came out of my mouth was: "Wow, that was really brave of you, I know a lot of guys don't like women with short hair." I don't remember what was said next, but really there's no coming back from that.
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:30 PM on March 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
god, all of this is so weirdly foreign to me. I read that article trying to find something to relate to. this is a life I sincerely have no knowledge of and don't understand.
reading the article and now the comments I realized I could relate to one thing: as in that comment on negging above--the kind of behavior in the article has happened to me, absolutely, but the thing is, every single one of the catty, backhanded comments meant to steal my self esteem that I can recall were from men. and specifically, men trying to sleep with me.
I guess still the fact is, I don't have any female friends in the real world. I wish I did. there are a couple of contenders recently, met through my male friends, but I can't even imagine any of them behaving like this. every experience I have had with them was incredibly supportive, and this is the same of my online friends.
I have no doubt that the stuff the article is describing is real and even common, but lord it seems like it's from an entirely different world.
posted by suddenly, and without warning, at 12:39 PM on March 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
reading the article and now the comments I realized I could relate to one thing: as in that comment on negging above--the kind of behavior in the article has happened to me, absolutely, but the thing is, every single one of the catty, backhanded comments meant to steal my self esteem that I can recall were from men. and specifically, men trying to sleep with me.
I guess still the fact is, I don't have any female friends in the real world. I wish I did. there are a couple of contenders recently, met through my male friends, but I can't even imagine any of them behaving like this. every experience I have had with them was incredibly supportive, and this is the same of my online friends.
I have no doubt that the stuff the article is describing is real and even common, but lord it seems like it's from an entirely different world.
posted by suddenly, and without warning, at 12:39 PM on March 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
I think the thing that makes this complicated for me and keeps me from being like "just cut those turds loose" (despite the fact that I did exactly that) is that most of the time, in my experience, there is real unhappiness behind this behavior. And not just unhappiness, but a lack of agency, a feeling that there's no way you can improve your own circumstances, so all that's left is to cut other people down. The women I have known who do this are all dependent (emotionally, financially) on men. I have seen them lash out viciously at other wives/girlfriends they perceive as "weak" or overly feminine (for being what they hate in themselves) as well as women who are financially independent and making their own way in the world (for doing what they can't). It's really, really ugly and I don't want people like this in my life, but they haunt me.
posted by sunset in snow country at 12:40 PM on March 28, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by sunset in snow country at 12:40 PM on March 28, 2016 [15 favorites]
The question I have, as the father of a young daughter, is how do I prevent this from becoming the pattern of her life?
Right now, if she tells me another classmate is being deliberately mean or obstructive, I've just been saying "Hey, just don't play with them. Find a game or friend that makes you happy, something you want to do".
I think this works fine in the early stages of elementary school, where memories are short and the biggest disagreements are about who gets to use the good kickball.
Her mother has stable, adult friendships, and does not tend to gossip or have much drama in her life, which is sure to be a good influence as she reaches the teenage years.
I also encourage her to play with all the kids (boys and girls) in her classroom, not to have a "best" friend. It helps that it is a small school, so they all have known each other for a while.
But I wonder what other coping/descalation strategies I can teach her now, when she's young.
posted by madajb at 12:47 PM on March 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
Right now, if she tells me another classmate is being deliberately mean or obstructive, I've just been saying "Hey, just don't play with them. Find a game or friend that makes you happy, something you want to do".
I think this works fine in the early stages of elementary school, where memories are short and the biggest disagreements are about who gets to use the good kickball.
Her mother has stable, adult friendships, and does not tend to gossip or have much drama in her life, which is sure to be a good influence as she reaches the teenage years.
I also encourage her to play with all the kids (boys and girls) in her classroom, not to have a "best" friend. It helps that it is a small school, so they all have known each other for a while.
But I wonder what other coping/descalation strategies I can teach her now, when she's young.
posted by madajb at 12:47 PM on March 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
Women are raised to be careful of other women, because women are catty, jealous creatures, always stealing things from each other: jobs, men, beauty, self-esteem.This I identify with hard. For a variety of reasons I was insouciant to passive-aggressiveness while growing up (I didn't have the social skills to identify it in my peers), but I absorbed this warning anyway. It was one of the things that got me stuck in "Not Like Other Girls" mode and rendered me unable to identify with or fully trust other women until I got old enough and spent enough time around other women to realize they were people, like me.
All my female friends and the bulk of the women I know do not do this shit, and I am super glad for that. I am super-glad to have the female friends I have now, period.
posted by Anonymous at 12:48 PM on March 28, 2016
But I wonder what other coping/descalation strategies I can teach her now, when she's young
Whatever you do, do not say to her a version of "just ignore them" or "they don't like themselves, and that's why they take it out on you."
posted by Melismata at 12:50 PM on March 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Whatever you do, do not say to her a version of "just ignore them" or "they don't like themselves, and that's why they take it out on you."
posted by Melismata at 12:50 PM on March 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
Whatever you do, do not say to her a version of
Also do not invite the girl who's being meanest to your daughter to spend the day at your house and then spend the rest of the weekend talking about how she seems perfectly nice and was very respectful to you and maybe your daughter is just being a snob.
Like, definitely do not do that.
Hypothetically.
posted by phunniemee at 12:56 PM on March 28, 2016 [54 favorites]
Also do not invite the girl who's being meanest to your daughter to spend the day at your house and then spend the rest of the weekend talking about how she seems perfectly nice and was very respectful to you and maybe your daughter is just being a snob.
Like, definitely do not do that.
Hypothetically.
posted by phunniemee at 12:56 PM on March 28, 2016 [54 favorites]
Someone can just always never trust other people. Yeah, it leads to a unpleasant isolated life where you never really feel like you have any worth, but hey, at least you make it a lot harder for people to screw you over.
posted by evilangela at 12:58 PM on March 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by evilangela at 12:58 PM on March 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
I think this works fine in the early stages of elementary school, where memories are short and the biggest disagreements are about who gets to use the good kickball.
I think this works just fine for friendships as she gets older, too. As I said in a previous comment, I was pretty terrible about detecting passive-aggressive insults. So from experience, I can tell you if someone delivers one and you take the comment at face value--reacting as if you did not pick up on the insult at all--then they will either be confused and stop or they will escalate. If they escalate, then they eventually must transition from passive-aggressive, plausible-deniability mean to straight-up mean-mean, and your daughter can feel free to call their bullshit out and ditch them without getting into the "oh but I didn't mean that" nonsense that will frequently be the defense of people delivering negs. She should not feel compelled to be around people who make her feel like shit.
posted by Anonymous at 1:03 PM on March 28, 2016
I think this works just fine for friendships as she gets older, too. As I said in a previous comment, I was pretty terrible about detecting passive-aggressive insults. So from experience, I can tell you if someone delivers one and you take the comment at face value--reacting as if you did not pick up on the insult at all--then they will either be confused and stop or they will escalate. If they escalate, then they eventually must transition from passive-aggressive, plausible-deniability mean to straight-up mean-mean, and your daughter can feel free to call their bullshit out and ditch them without getting into the "oh but I didn't mean that" nonsense that will frequently be the defense of people delivering negs. She should not feel compelled to be around people who make her feel like shit.
posted by Anonymous at 1:03 PM on March 28, 2016
The article is lovely, but this part confused me. The juxtaposition of "do you have any men friends who make catty comments?" and women going "oh, yes!" while men go "what? no"... and then the article goes on to behave as if we're thinking that men are better than women, because men don't.... get hurt? Even as they make their own cutting, catty comments? Is there an obvious typo I'm missing?
At the risk of turning this in to some kind of well-as-a-man thing, which is not where i'm trying to go with this at all... The one comment i have about this is that most of my friends are women, and i'm a man.
Men, when called on this or if you even try and bring it up often either don't get it in a brick wall sort of way or respond in a "why you hefta be mad, it's only game!" way.
In general, women are much more often willing and able to walk through how what they said was hurtful or where it came from. And as someone who overthinks fucking everything i got 100% burned out on having flaky friends who not only pulled this sort of shit obliviously all the time but couldn't even put forth the effort to see how it was hurtful.
Just my two cents... but yea.
posted by emptythought at 1:29 PM on March 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
At the risk of turning this in to some kind of well-as-a-man thing, which is not where i'm trying to go with this at all... The one comment i have about this is that most of my friends are women, and i'm a man.
Men, when called on this or if you even try and bring it up often either don't get it in a brick wall sort of way or respond in a "why you hefta be mad, it's only game!" way.
In general, women are much more often willing and able to walk through how what they said was hurtful or where it came from. And as someone who overthinks fucking everything i got 100% burned out on having flaky friends who not only pulled this sort of shit obliviously all the time but couldn't even put forth the effort to see how it was hurtful.
Just my two cents... but yea.
posted by emptythought at 1:29 PM on March 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
The most uncomfortable thing about this article, for me, is that I read it, and I could see in it the shadows of some of my own friends, and even reading it, I find myself making excuses. Well, I think, what if they didn't mean it? Maybe I'm being too sensitive. I'm reading too much into things, probably; I'm too willing to assume the worst of people, too quick to view myself as a victim, too--
We're so socialised to give others the benefit of the doubt and assume good intentions that I struggle to tell when I'm being uncharitable vs when someone else is being cruel.
posted by mishafletch at 1:32 PM on March 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
We're so socialised to give others the benefit of the doubt and assume good intentions that I struggle to tell when I'm being uncharitable vs when someone else is being cruel.
posted by mishafletch at 1:32 PM on March 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
For me it was balancing empathy and boundaries. I was really good at understanding why a person was doing a thing and less good and taking care of myself in those situations, which is ultimately unsustainable.
Also important was examining my own reactions to sensitive things and processing why I felt that way. It helped me to differentiate those times when I was taking things personally, that really were not intended so, and incorrectly centering them on me. It also helped me to understand when someone was deliberately undermining me for whatever reason.
Something I still struggle with is knowing when to extricate myself, in part because I feel obligated to give people the benefit of the doubt and can let that outweigh the obligation to take care of myself.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 1:33 PM on March 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also important was examining my own reactions to sensitive things and processing why I felt that way. It helped me to differentiate those times when I was taking things personally, that really were not intended so, and incorrectly centering them on me. It also helped me to understand when someone was deliberately undermining me for whatever reason.
Something I still struggle with is knowing when to extricate myself, in part because I feel obligated to give people the benefit of the doubt and can let that outweigh the obligation to take care of myself.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 1:33 PM on March 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's a pretty well documented form of playful friendship, and not at all the same dynamic as in this post. Women don't typically do "insults mean I like you," the way it occurs between men.
*blinks* I think you may be hanging out with different women from me, because I have multiple female friends I constantly engage with that way, including the two who are also coworkers and my partners' coworker. Especially in the sense of gently winding your friends up and responding with affectionate insults after being wound up, which is the baseline state of my entire (mostly female) friends circle.
You're totally right that these are super different things, though. The one the article is discussing is overtly, textually friendly and yet meant to wound--there are barbs in the smile, compliments that cut, and any knowledge of the person being targeted gets directed towards aiming for whatever the target is sensitive about. (If the teaser doesn't know what the target's sore spots are, they tend to make educated guesses--targeting young women based on appearance, for example.) The overall emotional affect is minimal with a distinct air of friendliness or concern. Facial expressions are friendly around the lips and hard around the eyes.
The thing you're talking about is maybe textually insulting, but it's meant as play--if the target reacts badly, the teaser will apologize or redirect towards something that isn't hurtful, often transitioning to something self-deprecating. The teaser aims for subjects the target isn't sensitive about, as far as the teaser's knowledge extends. There's an expected tit-for-tat atmosphere, such that if you don't insult or tease right back the dynamic stops while the teaser checks in, and both parties routinely exchange roles. There's also a lot of very clear telegraphing of tone and facial cues that says "I don't mean it, I'm playing!" Really exaggerated sarcasm, eye crinkling, exaggerated expressions of faux hurt or anger on the part of the target.
They're really very obvious to tell apart if you're familiar with both kinds of interactions, but you do have to be paying close attention to find out which one was going on from a person's description of each--and if you're far more familiar with one than the other, it's easy to conflate them if you aren't paying attention. Which is why, I think, it took "friends who make you feel small" for the author to get across what she was actually talking about to the male friends she spoke with. But it's not just something that people of one gender or the other one do--I've watched men be cutting and passive aggressive, and like I said, I know lots of women who engage in play teasing as a form of affection too.
posted by sciatrix at 1:48 PM on March 28, 2016 [17 favorites]
*blinks* I think you may be hanging out with different women from me, because I have multiple female friends I constantly engage with that way, including the two who are also coworkers and my partners' coworker. Especially in the sense of gently winding your friends up and responding with affectionate insults after being wound up, which is the baseline state of my entire (mostly female) friends circle.
You're totally right that these are super different things, though. The one the article is discussing is overtly, textually friendly and yet meant to wound--there are barbs in the smile, compliments that cut, and any knowledge of the person being targeted gets directed towards aiming for whatever the target is sensitive about. (If the teaser doesn't know what the target's sore spots are, they tend to make educated guesses--targeting young women based on appearance, for example.) The overall emotional affect is minimal with a distinct air of friendliness or concern. Facial expressions are friendly around the lips and hard around the eyes.
The thing you're talking about is maybe textually insulting, but it's meant as play--if the target reacts badly, the teaser will apologize or redirect towards something that isn't hurtful, often transitioning to something self-deprecating. The teaser aims for subjects the target isn't sensitive about, as far as the teaser's knowledge extends. There's an expected tit-for-tat atmosphere, such that if you don't insult or tease right back the dynamic stops while the teaser checks in, and both parties routinely exchange roles. There's also a lot of very clear telegraphing of tone and facial cues that says "I don't mean it, I'm playing!" Really exaggerated sarcasm, eye crinkling, exaggerated expressions of faux hurt or anger on the part of the target.
They're really very obvious to tell apart if you're familiar with both kinds of interactions, but you do have to be paying close attention to find out which one was going on from a person's description of each--and if you're far more familiar with one than the other, it's easy to conflate them if you aren't paying attention. Which is why, I think, it took "friends who make you feel small" for the author to get across what she was actually talking about to the male friends she spoke with. But it's not just something that people of one gender or the other one do--I've watched men be cutting and passive aggressive, and like I said, I know lots of women who engage in play teasing as a form of affection too.
posted by sciatrix at 1:48 PM on March 28, 2016 [17 favorites]
My older sisters did/do this my entire life and it is maddening, both in terms of making me mad and in terms of making me feel like I'm going mad. I spend at least a week before every family gathering emotionally preparing myself for the onslaught, thinking through what I might say in response to any given jab, and every time I end up either letting them walk all over me or lashing out, thereby making myself look oversensitive and irrationally hostile. It's absolute hell. Thankfully, they appear to gradually be growing out of it, but I'm left with the mistrust and social anxiety they spent my entire lifetime instilling in me.
Thankfully, I've managed to avoid that sort of behavior in my friends - mostly. For a time, my gaming group contained a sort of aspiring Queen Bee who tried to recenter our entire circle of friends around her and cut my husband and me out of it. We drove ourselves nuts trying to figure out if these thousands of little slights were intentional or not - strange things like, oh, she just happened to schedule her party the same day as ours and also invite all the same people. When we stopped hanging out with her, all these mysterious coincidences abruptly stopped.
It's great being an adult.
posted by Anyamatopoeia at 2:57 PM on March 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Thankfully, I've managed to avoid that sort of behavior in my friends - mostly. For a time, my gaming group contained a sort of aspiring Queen Bee who tried to recenter our entire circle of friends around her and cut my husband and me out of it. We drove ourselves nuts trying to figure out if these thousands of little slights were intentional or not - strange things like, oh, she just happened to schedule her party the same day as ours and also invite all the same people. When we stopped hanging out with her, all these mysterious coincidences abruptly stopped.
It's great being an adult.
posted by Anyamatopoeia at 2:57 PM on March 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
I hate this stereotype a lot.
Men are just as passive aggressive as women are in my experience, but somehow when a man says something covertly insulting, people tend to write it off as them being awkward and clueless, whereas they assume women are doing it intentionally.
That's not true. have worked with TONS of men who were catty as fuck, always looking to get little digs in while maintaining plausible deniability. And on the other hand, I stumble over my words and have things come out wrong all the time, even though I am a lady! If it's important enough to me that I need to insult or criticize someone, I will do it directly and to their face unless there's a very compelling reason I can't. I almost never do passive aggressive, and I hate it that people assume I do.
posted by ernielundquist at 3:07 PM on March 28, 2016 [40 favorites]
Men are just as passive aggressive as women are in my experience, but somehow when a man says something covertly insulting, people tend to write it off as them being awkward and clueless, whereas they assume women are doing it intentionally.
That's not true. have worked with TONS of men who were catty as fuck, always looking to get little digs in while maintaining plausible deniability. And on the other hand, I stumble over my words and have things come out wrong all the time, even though I am a lady! If it's important enough to me that I need to insult or criticize someone, I will do it directly and to their face unless there's a very compelling reason I can't. I almost never do passive aggressive, and I hate it that people assume I do.
posted by ernielundquist at 3:07 PM on March 28, 2016 [40 favorites]
I'm not sure I'd agree that men are outside of this dynamic on another angle as well - I think they profit from it. Think about the narrative of two women fighting over a man - the focus of the women on each other distracts from the often far greater betrayal of the man for both.
I've twice had someone try to "steal" a boyfriend from me. Once it was my best friend, who I recognize now was deep in the throes of suffering and who I could not help*, and who simply could not leave any of my boyfriends alone. The second time, my boyfriend flirted with a waitress to make me jealous. In both cases, I was angry primarily with the men in question - but I don't think any of them were ignorant of what was going on; they were counting on my competitiveness with the other woman to drive my relationship closer to them, and were surprised when I wasn't competitive.
Now I wonder how much of my extreme abhorrence for competition is bound up in this dynamic I experienced with women, and my determination to never, ever compete with other women for anything. I would rather cede ground than play into a dynamic where either of us are lesser.
The point about men's overt aggression contrasted with women's covert is interesting, though, and AdamCSnider covered it well. Part of the difference is that men are discouraged from admitting they are hurt by that sort of language; another part is that the aggression often is how men show their affection for each other - a cover, if you will; and a third is that direct confrontation is expected. Women, by contrast, are socialized to be covert with our aggression and overt with our affections, so you end up with a different dynamic with much more complicated repairs. Learning how to deal with aggression in relationships is critical and really challenging.
One of my favorite aggression-as-play experiences was when I hosted a flame war over whether tomatoes were a fruit or vegetable and Godwined it in the opening post. The insults were epic, everyone had a blast, and years later very earnest people commented to inform me soberly that I was wrong - vegetables are actually a fruit and they have a link to educate me. A++ flame war, would host again.
*Her pushing me down was her attempts to break the surface, and I think she was honestly baffled when I finally confronted her about it and ended our friendship. Certainly, her attempting to contact me years later speaks to her not understanding that when I was done I was done.
posted by Deoridhe at 3:23 PM on March 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
I've twice had someone try to "steal" a boyfriend from me. Once it was my best friend, who I recognize now was deep in the throes of suffering and who I could not help*, and who simply could not leave any of my boyfriends alone. The second time, my boyfriend flirted with a waitress to make me jealous. In both cases, I was angry primarily with the men in question - but I don't think any of them were ignorant of what was going on; they were counting on my competitiveness with the other woman to drive my relationship closer to them, and were surprised when I wasn't competitive.
Now I wonder how much of my extreme abhorrence for competition is bound up in this dynamic I experienced with women, and my determination to never, ever compete with other women for anything. I would rather cede ground than play into a dynamic where either of us are lesser.
The point about men's overt aggression contrasted with women's covert is interesting, though, and AdamCSnider covered it well. Part of the difference is that men are discouraged from admitting they are hurt by that sort of language; another part is that the aggression often is how men show their affection for each other - a cover, if you will; and a third is that direct confrontation is expected. Women, by contrast, are socialized to be covert with our aggression and overt with our affections, so you end up with a different dynamic with much more complicated repairs. Learning how to deal with aggression in relationships is critical and really challenging.
One of my favorite aggression-as-play experiences was when I hosted a flame war over whether tomatoes were a fruit or vegetable and Godwined it in the opening post. The insults were epic, everyone had a blast, and years later very earnest people commented to inform me soberly that I was wrong - vegetables are actually a fruit and they have a link to educate me. A++ flame war, would host again.
*Her pushing me down was her attempts to break the surface, and I think she was honestly baffled when I finally confronted her about it and ended our friendship. Certainly, her attempting to contact me years later speaks to her not understanding that when I was done I was done.
posted by Deoridhe at 3:23 PM on March 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
"What the sad girl was describing was consistent, low-scale, looting of happiness. Contrary to what Eleanor Roosevelt said, it's very, very easy to make somebody feel inferior without their consent. ... We don't have meaningful shorthand for petit larceny ... Women say nothing because we are afraid to put a name to the leakages that occur in us."
sunset in snow country's mention of Ferrante's depiction of female friendship is so right here, because she has the brazenness and acuity to give words to these invisible struggles which are so easily, and so often, dismissed with "You're reading too much into that" or "You're too sensitive." Trying to describe these currents to male friends over the years has been maddening; so many of them dismissed the way I read situations and people. But my women friends? They get it. They assume layers and contexts and emotional elasticity between people, and that's where they begin, not needing to be convinced that subtexts exist. I've been thinking about this with respect to Susan Glaspell's short story, "A Jury of Her Peers," which hangs on the silent communal understanding of the little things, and with respect to Margaret Atwood's novel, The Robber Bride. I am so grateful to be in a place in my life where I have a few really good woman friends who appreciate the value of stopping the leakages that our lives inflict on us.
posted by MonkeyToes at 3:33 PM on March 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
sunset in snow country's mention of Ferrante's depiction of female friendship is so right here, because she has the brazenness and acuity to give words to these invisible struggles which are so easily, and so often, dismissed with "You're reading too much into that" or "You're too sensitive." Trying to describe these currents to male friends over the years has been maddening; so many of them dismissed the way I read situations and people. But my women friends? They get it. They assume layers and contexts and emotional elasticity between people, and that's where they begin, not needing to be convinced that subtexts exist. I've been thinking about this with respect to Susan Glaspell's short story, "A Jury of Her Peers," which hangs on the silent communal understanding of the little things, and with respect to Margaret Atwood's novel, The Robber Bride. I am so grateful to be in a place in my life where I have a few really good woman friends who appreciate the value of stopping the leakages that our lives inflict on us.
posted by MonkeyToes at 3:33 PM on March 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
I am female-- XX chromosomes, socialized to be "nice", socialized to do emotional labour, socialized to worry about my body and its acceptability, etcetera.
I did not recognize a single word of this article, except for one woman I knew who was mildly famous for her various putdowns but with whom I still, sometimes, had fun; but she was an anomaly in our circles (and pretty much got a pass only for her music and art). Perhaps these kinds of relations take place in that other female world that also contains makeup and high heels and competition, but I honestly don't understand why you would be friends with somebody who treats others in this way, and really don't understand why it's being analyzed as some aspect of the female condition rather than the unfortunate insecurities and resentments of the young.
posted by jokeefe at 4:00 PM on March 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
I did not recognize a single word of this article, except for one woman I knew who was mildly famous for her various putdowns but with whom I still, sometimes, had fun; but she was an anomaly in our circles (and pretty much got a pass only for her music and art). Perhaps these kinds of relations take place in that other female world that also contains makeup and high heels and competition, but I honestly don't understand why you would be friends with somebody who treats others in this way, and really don't understand why it's being analyzed as some aspect of the female condition rather than the unfortunate insecurities and resentments of the young.
posted by jokeefe at 4:00 PM on March 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
Well, like everything related to gender: (a) nothing applies universally to any one gender, and (b) there are various groups and types and individuals.
As a man, I can't relate at all to It usually leads to a very overt, often physically violent confrontation as the outcome of verbal insults or aggression. In my experience, it just leads to more passive-aggressiveness and hurt feelings. I've never had a physical confrontation with another guy. But I am aware that there are large groups of men for whom that is normal, just not the ones I personally have known.
Similarly, I've known women who were really deep into the competitiveness with other women thing, and those who rejected that entirely and avoided those who did.
posted by thefoxgod at 4:51 PM on March 28, 2016 [13 favorites]
As a man, I can't relate at all to It usually leads to a very overt, often physically violent confrontation as the outcome of verbal insults or aggression. In my experience, it just leads to more passive-aggressiveness and hurt feelings. I've never had a physical confrontation with another guy. But I am aware that there are large groups of men for whom that is normal, just not the ones I personally have known.
Similarly, I've known women who were really deep into the competitiveness with other women thing, and those who rejected that entirely and avoided those who did.
posted by thefoxgod at 4:51 PM on March 28, 2016 [13 favorites]
I remember realizing sometime around college that I was taught in order to bond with women, we needed to say catty things about other women we knew when they weren't around. And how messed up that was. I think I would've been much happier in high school and middle school if I realized that I didn't need to do that.
But I know I thought that's just how it was for a really long time. That's how you got close to other women. You only could prove your value by your ability to tear other women down. That sucks. A lot.
I'm glad as I've gotten older, a lot of that has fallen away. But every now and then I meet a woman and there's this weird, subtle one-up-(wo)manship. Like just by talking, we're competing with each other. For what, I've never been able to figure out (men? jobs? being the prettiest? no clue). And I think I confuse a lot of women by just refusing to play this unspoken game. I always want to celebrate all the awesome women in my life. If they have good things, that doesn't mean I can't have good things, too. And often, it means we can all have good things together.
posted by darksong at 5:03 PM on March 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
But I know I thought that's just how it was for a really long time. That's how you got close to other women. You only could prove your value by your ability to tear other women down. That sucks. A lot.
I'm glad as I've gotten older, a lot of that has fallen away. But every now and then I meet a woman and there's this weird, subtle one-up-(wo)manship. Like just by talking, we're competing with each other. For what, I've never been able to figure out (men? jobs? being the prettiest? no clue). And I think I confuse a lot of women by just refusing to play this unspoken game. I always want to celebrate all the awesome women in my life. If they have good things, that doesn't mean I can't have good things, too. And often, it means we can all have good things together.
posted by darksong at 5:03 PM on March 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh shit, I did this. I stole tiny, cheap things from my dad's new wife. In my young, immature mind, I thought, "She stole my dad, so I'm taking this". Candy. A small bar of soap or a tiny kewpie doll.
Never from my siblings —her kids— or from my dad. Only from her.
Then we all traveled and she took things from my luggage, offered my new expensive sunblock to her kids. That was the start of a rift that lasted for years.
My sister did stuff like that to me for years. Clothes, money, even my wallet. Now, like the women from the article, we get along and protect each other. Please, let it not be a temporary thing.
I love my female friends, coworkers, allies. I'll support them to the end. But things are different with family.
posted by clearlydemon at 5:12 PM on March 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Never from my siblings —her kids— or from my dad. Only from her.
Then we all traveled and she took things from my luggage, offered my new expensive sunblock to her kids. That was the start of a rift that lasted for years.
My sister did stuff like that to me for years. Clothes, money, even my wallet. Now, like the women from the article, we get along and protect each other. Please, let it not be a temporary thing.
I love my female friends, coworkers, allies. I'll support them to the end. But things are different with family.
posted by clearlydemon at 5:12 PM on March 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
One of my greatest friends, years ago, would occasionally say things that just threw me into insane spirals. My boyfriend at the time, who had known her longer, was totally baffled every time and I tried to explain that secret lady language and how what she had said was cutting, but it was hard. Crucially, we're both a lot happier with much higher self esteem now, and it basically never happens any more.
Thinking about it as an obvious artifact of fear and latent competitiveness and low self esteem, I'm quite sure I've said things equally shitty, without even being aware of it.
I feel like it's somehow related to that way of bonding where women will sit around and analyze their own physical flaws, or maybe eat junk food while simultaneously talking about how they shouldn't be eating it. It's a maddening habit but I've fallen into that trap, too. Luckily on both counts my friends are the type that we can call it out when we notice it, but it's amazing how unpleasant and insidious it is.
posted by jeweled accumulation at 5:13 PM on March 28, 2016
Thinking about it as an obvious artifact of fear and latent competitiveness and low self esteem, I'm quite sure I've said things equally shitty, without even being aware of it.
I feel like it's somehow related to that way of bonding where women will sit around and analyze their own physical flaws, or maybe eat junk food while simultaneously talking about how they shouldn't be eating it. It's a maddening habit but I've fallen into that trap, too. Luckily on both counts my friends are the type that we can call it out when we notice it, but it's amazing how unpleasant and insidious it is.
posted by jeweled accumulation at 5:13 PM on March 28, 2016
"We are much harder on people who betray us in small ways than on people who betray others in great ones." -- La Rochefoucauld
posted by storybored at 6:03 PM on March 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by storybored at 6:03 PM on March 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
My besties and I have been friends for more than 30 years. The sisterhood of the travelling tiaras is a small group, but we've been there for each other when our families couldn't or wouldn't. We've been through husbands and boyfriends and girlfriends and childbirth and abortions and burying parents and siblings and friends. I cannot imagine what my life would have been without these long term friends, and I cannot imagine any of us negging each other for any reason.
If you have friends who neg, then you must cut them free. Nobody needs negative nelly.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 6:11 PM on March 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
If you have friends who neg, then you must cut them free. Nobody needs negative nelly.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 6:11 PM on March 28, 2016 [5 favorites]
I agree, but the thing is that it's rarely your decades-long besties who do these sorts of things. It's the mom up the street you have to make nice with because your kids are friends. It's the colleague in the other department you're working with on a long-term project. It's your lousy cousin who can't resist making the passive-aggressive dig about your weight at thanksgiving.
And because it's not your decades-long bestie, because there are powerful reasons not to rock the boat (sake of your kid's play date; success of the project; keeping the peace at holidays), it's often easier to just let these things slide, or convince yourself that they're not such a big deal, maybe you are just being oversensitive, etc.
posted by shiu mai baby at 6:29 PM on March 28, 2016 [11 favorites]
And because it's not your decades-long bestie, because there are powerful reasons not to rock the boat (sake of your kid's play date; success of the project; keeping the peace at holidays), it's often easier to just let these things slide, or convince yourself that they're not such a big deal, maybe you are just being oversensitive, etc.
posted by shiu mai baby at 6:29 PM on March 28, 2016 [11 favorites]
I don't really hang around in catty circles deliberately, but I do think unhappy people make themselves happier by nitpicking the shit out of other women and their behavior. It seems to be some nasty side of human nature that a great way to make yourself feel better is to put others down.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:50 PM on March 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:50 PM on March 28, 2016 [3 favorites]
I also didn't identify with this article. This is not to discount the author or other women who have had these experiences at all, because yes, I have also experienced this kind of thing from women and girls. But when I think back on women and girls who have said or done things that have hurt me, I also try to bring to mind things that boys and men have done to hurt me and these things outnumber things women have done by far.
It's not just the negging, as was mentioned above, it's a million other little things (and a lot of big things too).
- The looking at my body instead of my face while I'm talking and then being dismissive of what I was saying because my body wasn't good enough (I'm not worth listening to) or my body was good enough (want to sleep with me, who cares what I say)
- the guys who I had only spoken to over the phone (usually work-related) and when I meet them, literally couldn't hide their disappointment because I didn't look like whatever they expected
- the ones who tell me (without saying anything ) how unimportant they consider me and my ideas when they ignore me and move on when I contribute ideas (into which I've put a lot of preparation) at work
- the other ones who do the same thing every time they talk over me as if I'm not even there
- the ones in junior high/high school (and beyond!) who would forget I was there as soon as someone prettier walked by
- the ones who were always telling me how hot my friends were or asking if my friends would date them
- the regular other casual little comments that men make regularly about women's bodies/looks/faces/personalities that, while I know they may not be intended as such, feel a little like putting me in my place by reminding me I don't measure up
- the ones who catcalled me/touched me/followed me in public and made me feel unsafe and embarassed/ashamed
- the ones who act incredulous that I might know something about whatever things they don't think women know anything about
- the ones that publicly rebuke and humiliate me for demonstrating this knowledge
I could go on. And yes, not all men do this, and women do these things too - I don't think this should be ignored. But I was also very susceptible when I was younger and having heard this narrative my whole life that women are catty and bitchy and competitive, I think I really accepted it without challenge (on both sides - believing that other girls were catty, and that I should, as a girl, compete with other girls). I thought that was how I was supposed to be and I internalized it, much like I internalized the idea that girls are bad at math, which did nothing except stop me from even trying to like or be good at math in school, which will always be one of my life's bigger regrets.
But even though I internalized this idea about How Girls Are at an early age, I also had some women in my life who were strong role models who they taught me that women were my allies and my support and could be depended upon and that girls who were mean to me were mean people and not mean girls and I internalized this message just as much. Again, this is not at all to deny the different experiences that other women have had and how profound an impact that can have on us, because I've had those traumatic experiences too.
When the men finally understood what I was driving at, they said No, of course they didn't have friends who made them feel small. They said it with confidence, with incredulity at the idea that anybody would have that kind of friend. What kind of friends would they be?
But I do think men do this. From reading the threads on here about toxic masculinity and the men who have shared their experiences, I think this kind of thing happens with men just as much - just in different ways. The policing of the extremely narrow parameters of masculinity - the violence, social dominance, stoicism, aggression, expectation of high sexual drives, not being a "pussy", not seeming "gay" - these are real ways men harm each other (we're literally seeing this dynamic playing out in our presidential race on the GOP side at this very moment). I think this is a better corollary than asking men if they make catty, mean comments, as the author did.
posted by triggerfinger at 7:04 PM on March 28, 2016 [16 favorites]
It's not just the negging, as was mentioned above, it's a million other little things (and a lot of big things too).
- The looking at my body instead of my face while I'm talking and then being dismissive of what I was saying because my body wasn't good enough (I'm not worth listening to) or my body was good enough (want to sleep with me, who cares what I say)
- the guys who I had only spoken to over the phone (usually work-related) and when I meet them, literally couldn't hide their disappointment because I didn't look like whatever they expected
- the ones who tell me (without saying anything ) how unimportant they consider me and my ideas when they ignore me and move on when I contribute ideas (into which I've put a lot of preparation) at work
- the other ones who do the same thing every time they talk over me as if I'm not even there
- the ones in junior high/high school (and beyond!) who would forget I was there as soon as someone prettier walked by
- the ones who were always telling me how hot my friends were or asking if my friends would date them
- the regular other casual little comments that men make regularly about women's bodies/looks/faces/personalities that, while I know they may not be intended as such, feel a little like putting me in my place by reminding me I don't measure up
- the ones who catcalled me/touched me/followed me in public and made me feel unsafe and embarassed/ashamed
- the ones who act incredulous that I might know something about whatever things they don't think women know anything about
- the ones that publicly rebuke and humiliate me for demonstrating this knowledge
I could go on. And yes, not all men do this, and women do these things too - I don't think this should be ignored. But I was also very susceptible when I was younger and having heard this narrative my whole life that women are catty and bitchy and competitive, I think I really accepted it without challenge (on both sides - believing that other girls were catty, and that I should, as a girl, compete with other girls). I thought that was how I was supposed to be and I internalized it, much like I internalized the idea that girls are bad at math, which did nothing except stop me from even trying to like or be good at math in school, which will always be one of my life's bigger regrets.
But even though I internalized this idea about How Girls Are at an early age, I also had some women in my life who were strong role models who they taught me that women were my allies and my support and could be depended upon and that girls who were mean to me were mean people and not mean girls and I internalized this message just as much. Again, this is not at all to deny the different experiences that other women have had and how profound an impact that can have on us, because I've had those traumatic experiences too.
When the men finally understood what I was driving at, they said No, of course they didn't have friends who made them feel small. They said it with confidence, with incredulity at the idea that anybody would have that kind of friend. What kind of friends would they be?
But I do think men do this. From reading the threads on here about toxic masculinity and the men who have shared their experiences, I think this kind of thing happens with men just as much - just in different ways. The policing of the extremely narrow parameters of masculinity - the violence, social dominance, stoicism, aggression, expectation of high sexual drives, not being a "pussy", not seeming "gay" - these are real ways men harm each other (we're literally seeing this dynamic playing out in our presidential race on the GOP side at this very moment). I think this is a better corollary than asking men if they make catty, mean comments, as the author did.
posted by triggerfinger at 7:04 PM on March 28, 2016 [16 favorites]
On preview, I just came to say what triggerfinger is saying.
I get that women are maybe socialized more to passive aggression, and I've certainly experienced the mean girl thing, especially when I was younger, but I've been trying to recall examples of cattiness I've personally experienced, and the vast majority of it was from men. Especially when I was young, men would say nasty, critical things about other women to me, often as some kind of pickup technique. They'd tell me other women were unattractive or stupid or something, as though I'd take it as a compliment or try to win their favor or something, I guess.
I distinctly remember a guy in a bar trying to pick me up by insulting all the other women there. And he even pointed out one that he'd slept with before and told me she had suboptimal nipples. Seriously.
And learning the term for negging was a revelation, because I'd experienced it all my life but didn't have a word for it before.
And I've spent way too much time in male-dominated areas and have heard the way men talk about women. At one company I worked at, there was a group of guys who would go outside and sit on the pedestrian mall literally rating all the women who walked past, then they'd come back in and discuss the highlights.
Maybe it doesn't happen TO men, but men do it to women all the time.
So maybe sometimes women do have a higher tolerance for that sort of thing, even from their friends, just because they're inured to it.
posted by ernielundquist at 7:13 PM on March 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
I get that women are maybe socialized more to passive aggression, and I've certainly experienced the mean girl thing, especially when I was younger, but I've been trying to recall examples of cattiness I've personally experienced, and the vast majority of it was from men. Especially when I was young, men would say nasty, critical things about other women to me, often as some kind of pickup technique. They'd tell me other women were unattractive or stupid or something, as though I'd take it as a compliment or try to win their favor or something, I guess.
I distinctly remember a guy in a bar trying to pick me up by insulting all the other women there. And he even pointed out one that he'd slept with before and told me she had suboptimal nipples. Seriously.
And learning the term for negging was a revelation, because I'd experienced it all my life but didn't have a word for it before.
And I've spent way too much time in male-dominated areas and have heard the way men talk about women. At one company I worked at, there was a group of guys who would go outside and sit on the pedestrian mall literally rating all the women who walked past, then they'd come back in and discuss the highlights.
Maybe it doesn't happen TO men, but men do it to women all the time.
So maybe sometimes women do have a higher tolerance for that sort of thing, even from their friends, just because they're inured to it.
posted by ernielundquist at 7:13 PM on March 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
Most frequently, we categorize this behavior as general cattiness.
...and therin lies the problem. This isn't "catty" or any other cute word, this is being an unrepentant asshole, and it only happens because friends and family members and significant others enable it. This is no more tolerable than (insert random stereotypically "male" crappy behavior) and should be no more tolerated.
posted by trackofalljades at 7:41 PM on March 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
...and therin lies the problem. This isn't "catty" or any other cute word, this is being an unrepentant asshole, and it only happens because friends and family members and significant others enable it. This is no more tolerable than (insert random stereotypically "male" crappy behavior) and should be no more tolerated.
posted by trackofalljades at 7:41 PM on March 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
Whoever foisted that Eleanor Roosevelt quote on the world - even if it was her, which I doubt - put over the most untrue truism since "sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me." It is utter nonsense to anyone without some kind of social disorder.
I don't relate to most of the article AT ALL. Who are all these women who "steal" (either objects or self-esteem) from their friends?
I don't either, because I'm not friends with these kind of people - or rather, they're not friends with me. This kind of girl or woman looked straight through me. When I was a little odd kid, I'd try to join conversations and get hit with, "I wasn't talking to you." Soon enough I wasn't talking to anyone much. Later in life, my dress, and sometimes my weight, indicated that I was neither a threat nor of any great use in their grand game of Hey Ladies. So they ignored me.
And in that, they were far less cruel than boys or young men ever were. I went to women's college because I cared about women, and I knew that the other students would too. However badly we have been taught, I always will.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:51 PM on March 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
I don't relate to most of the article AT ALL. Who are all these women who "steal" (either objects or self-esteem) from their friends?
I don't either, because I'm not friends with these kind of people - or rather, they're not friends with me. This kind of girl or woman looked straight through me. When I was a little odd kid, I'd try to join conversations and get hit with, "I wasn't talking to you." Soon enough I wasn't talking to anyone much. Later in life, my dress, and sometimes my weight, indicated that I was neither a threat nor of any great use in their grand game of Hey Ladies. So they ignored me.
And in that, they were far less cruel than boys or young men ever were. I went to women's college because I cared about women, and I knew that the other students would too. However badly we have been taught, I always will.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:51 PM on March 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
Ok, but we're still talking about two sides of the same patriarchical coin. Of course the shit men do to women is a million times worse (generally speaking) than what women do to each other. That's precisely why it is so important for women to support each other -- participating in the passive-aggression, the inability to praise one woman without tearing down another -- those are all hateful behaviors that are normalized by a misogynistic patriarchical society.
The fact that men are shittier to women doesn't mean that women being shitty to each other isn't a serious problem.
posted by shiu mai baby at 7:56 PM on March 28, 2016 [17 favorites]
The fact that men are shittier to women doesn't mean that women being shitty to each other isn't a serious problem.
posted by shiu mai baby at 7:56 PM on March 28, 2016 [17 favorites]
NB: and that ignoring you experienced, Countess Elena, is just as abhorrent as the frenemies thing. It's deplorable behavior and it needs to stop.
posted by shiu mai baby at 8:00 PM on March 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by shiu mai baby at 8:00 PM on March 28, 2016 [6 favorites]
To add to the male examples that others have shared: the catty behaviour I witnessed from my childhood was mostly from male classmates to other male classmates. Guys who'd act all buddy-buddy with the Class Outcast then turn around and shit on him. The designated punching-bag in a circle of bros. The victim would pretend they were rolling with it and that it was just friendly ribbing, but everyone knew what was going on.
I was also very susceptible when I was younger and having heard this narrative my whole life that women are catty and bitchy and competitive
Yes, this. This is why I'm so uncomfortable with framing this kind of behaviour as a particularly female dynamic.
posted by airmail at 8:12 PM on March 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
I was also very susceptible when I was younger and having heard this narrative my whole life that women are catty and bitchy and competitive
Yes, this. This is why I'm so uncomfortable with framing this kind of behaviour as a particularly female dynamic.
posted by airmail at 8:12 PM on March 28, 2016 [7 favorites]
How does an article written about women, by a woman, end up being a discussion all about men?
posted by bibliogrrl at 8:21 PM on March 28, 2016 [35 favorites]
posted by bibliogrrl at 8:21 PM on March 28, 2016 [35 favorites]
I too am intensely grateful for my friends, my broader social circles, and a highly loving, self-aware, and sensitive mother who told me early on that passive-aggressive bullshit is the most toxic form of aggression.
posted by you're a kitty! at 8:26 PM on March 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by you're a kitty! at 8:26 PM on March 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I can't really untangle my being an odd duck from my lack of women friends. Is it the sinister claws of patriarchy or just that I'm a weirdo? I can't tell. Mean girls aren't even on my radar unless I am unfortunate enough to work for/with one, in which case I treat her like an obstacle to be routed around and never, ever confided in.
I do have a lot of affection for the women I know, and I will absolutely there for them when I can be, but don't really expect much in terms of friendship. It would be great to have the kind of close friends I had in college, but it seems unlikely to happen at this stage in my life.
posted by emjaybee at 8:30 PM on March 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
I do have a lot of affection for the women I know, and I will absolutely there for them when I can be, but don't really expect much in terms of friendship. It would be great to have the kind of close friends I had in college, but it seems unlikely to happen at this stage in my life.
posted by emjaybee at 8:30 PM on March 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
This reads an awful lot like the dark side of academic socializing.
posted by ChuraChura at 8:57 PM on March 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 8:57 PM on March 28, 2016 [4 favorites]
yeah I definitely recognize some of this as more generally socialized-as-female however there is also some intersectionality of class and maybe even race as well as gender that feeds into it perhaps? I ABSOLUTELY saw wayyyyyyy more of the "jellyfishing" types of remarks from, say, my cousins: upper middle class white privilege types who went to highly competitive private schools than I did from my rural counterparts. Which isn't to say there weren't other types of bullying in my farm school (because oh brother, there were - let's set this freshman in the water fountain and turn it on haw haw haw!) but the fine art of the frenemy seems (to me at least) to be a peculiarly white privilege sort of class society evil that I've mainly encountered in urban corporate and academic environments.
Negging is more overt and straightforward. Jellyfishing is often so subtle that you don't sense the sting until after a bit of review. Lots of plausible deniability.
It's all about establishing pecking order, too - and the sorts of people who do both (jellyfishing and negging) tend to linger in white collar corporate environments which are mainly just a bastion of the same sorts of cliques that evolve through secondary school and become ossified in the fraternity/sorority realms.
posted by lonefrontranger at 9:17 PM on March 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
Negging is more overt and straightforward. Jellyfishing is often so subtle that you don't sense the sting until after a bit of review. Lots of plausible deniability.
It's all about establishing pecking order, too - and the sorts of people who do both (jellyfishing and negging) tend to linger in white collar corporate environments which are mainly just a bastion of the same sorts of cliques that evolve through secondary school and become ossified in the fraternity/sorority realms.
posted by lonefrontranger at 9:17 PM on March 28, 2016 [9 favorites]
MonkeyToes' link up thread to Susan Glaspell's short story, "A Jury of Her Peers", is well, well, well worth reading.
posted by E. Whitehall at 11:48 PM on March 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by E. Whitehall at 11:48 PM on March 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
Previously: A study of Georgia high schools "found that, at every grade level, boys engaged in relationally aggressive behavior more often than girls."
"We have books, websites and conferences aimed at stopping girls from being aggressive, as well as a lot of qualitative research on why girls are relationally aggressive," Orpinas said. "But oddly enough, we don't have enough research on why boys would be relationally aggressive because people have assumed it's a girl behavior."posted by clawsoon at 4:42 AM on March 29, 2016 [10 favorites]
I know people describe this a lot, and every now and then a casual acquaintance might say something like this, but by the last year of high school, I was all out of friends who I couldn't count on to support me. I went to an all-girls high school, which probably helped, and I wasn't part of nor did I want to be in the popular group (who were fine to me, if not my friends).
But this "oh women are so nasty to each other" is -- I'm sure it happens, I don't doubt women who claim it, but it's not an inevitable part of being female in the world.
posted by jeather at 5:34 AM on March 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
But this "oh women are so nasty to each other" is -- I'm sure it happens, I don't doubt women who claim it, but it's not an inevitable part of being female in the world.
posted by jeather at 5:34 AM on March 29, 2016 [5 favorites]
Of course the shit men do to women is a million times worse (generally speaking) than what women do to each other. That's precisely why it is so important for women to support each other -- participating in the passive-aggression, the inability to praise one woman without tearing down another -- those are all hateful behaviors that are normalized by a misogynistic patriarchical society.
This. As a woman who works in a heavily male-skewed industry (IT, we've got 15% women overall), and who is one of the even-more-rare women in management (5% women, 1% at director level...), it has become depressingly overt how men USE the stereotype and societal programming of women's relational cattiness to their advantage. They play it like a goddamned fiddle. This is absolutely why we all need to support one another (within common-sense reason of course – not going to say we should support people who do not and will not accept empathy as relationally important; that would be dangerous). I cannot tell you how many times Men In Positions Of Authority have nonchalantly, yet calculatedly, let drop with Woman X that Woman Y sure does seem competent and respectable and wow you should sound her out for more info, just be careful of Y's directness. Cue passive-aggressive assault by Woman X on Woman Y for being "uppity" and "difficult to work with" which is exactly what Authority Dude wanted. Seriously. This has been played out in front of me and overtly explicated in so many words, by both parties. They somehow thought I should know this so I could implement it myself. I was basically stunned that they have such guile that they honestly thought I also did. (I don't. This is relatively obvious to anyone who knows me. When it comes to political calculations, I'm essentially at the elementary level of addition and subtraction of whole numbers.)
Divide and conquer. So obvious, and yet all of our (women's) societal conditioning says that we need to both please men and please authority, and oh how practical for white men that patriarchy has assigned them authority. Plus it's like, enough already with the stupid war metaphors. There is no compelling reason that life or work should be a war.
I still do not understand why people take second-hand opinions about others' character at face value, other than that it serves purposefully-discriminatory power structures I have no desire to promulgate. Not to be confused with objective managerial power structures; I'm talking about the political side of them. (Hell yes I wonder how and why I got promoted, though general consensus seems to be everyone trusts my competency and sincerity. Yes I do get that attempts to twist my sincerity into insincerity are also calculated. Awfully practical to teach talented women to sabotage themselves by convincing them that insincerity is tactically valuable.)
posted by fraula at 5:47 AM on March 29, 2016 [16 favorites]
This. As a woman who works in a heavily male-skewed industry (IT, we've got 15% women overall), and who is one of the even-more-rare women in management (5% women, 1% at director level...), it has become depressingly overt how men USE the stereotype and societal programming of women's relational cattiness to their advantage. They play it like a goddamned fiddle. This is absolutely why we all need to support one another (within common-sense reason of course – not going to say we should support people who do not and will not accept empathy as relationally important; that would be dangerous). I cannot tell you how many times Men In Positions Of Authority have nonchalantly, yet calculatedly, let drop with Woman X that Woman Y sure does seem competent and respectable and wow you should sound her out for more info, just be careful of Y's directness. Cue passive-aggressive assault by Woman X on Woman Y for being "uppity" and "difficult to work with" which is exactly what Authority Dude wanted. Seriously. This has been played out in front of me and overtly explicated in so many words, by both parties. They somehow thought I should know this so I could implement it myself. I was basically stunned that they have such guile that they honestly thought I also did. (I don't. This is relatively obvious to anyone who knows me. When it comes to political calculations, I'm essentially at the elementary level of addition and subtraction of whole numbers.)
Divide and conquer. So obvious, and yet all of our (women's) societal conditioning says that we need to both please men and please authority, and oh how practical for white men that patriarchy has assigned them authority. Plus it's like, enough already with the stupid war metaphors. There is no compelling reason that life or work should be a war.
I still do not understand why people take second-hand opinions about others' character at face value, other than that it serves purposefully-discriminatory power structures I have no desire to promulgate. Not to be confused with objective managerial power structures; I'm talking about the political side of them. (Hell yes I wonder how and why I got promoted, though general consensus seems to be everyone trusts my competency and sincerity. Yes I do get that attempts to twist my sincerity into insincerity are also calculated. Awfully practical to teach talented women to sabotage themselves by convincing them that insincerity is tactically valuable.)
posted by fraula at 5:47 AM on March 29, 2016 [16 favorites]
I've always felt the word "catty" is fundamentally misogynist, mostly because I have never heard it used to refer to a man even once - with the exception of this thread - in the past 40 years. Similarly, the idea that this sort of behavior magically happens because of being female and not, say, being a passive aggressive asshole is part and parcel of that same misogyny. I have a friend (a woman, like me) who has occasionally tried to convince me that the reason we're friends is because I'm "not like other women, they're so catty". It's bullshit. Everything she describes as uniquely terrible about women are things she's also complained about men doing, she just seems to mind it a bit less from them and never describes it as cattiness when it's from a man. A lot of women suffer from internalized misogyny, which sucks, but it doesn't mean I'm going to be cool with casually accepting misogynist narratives just because they come from the mouths of other women.
posted by Anhedonic Donkey at 9:25 AM on March 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Anhedonic Donkey at 9:25 AM on March 29, 2016 [6 favorites]
As a woman who works in a heavily male-skewed industry
Sometimes I wonder how much being in a heavily male environment exacerbates the type of behavior in the article. It can be a good reason to stick together; it can also pit women against each other, because there are only so many roles available for women.
E.g. if you've internalized the pattern that the project team will have one woman on it but not more, then that puts you into competition with other women in the office. Or if you're the "cool girl" in a largely male social group, then the introduction of another woman threatens that part of your identity (from which you derive a paradoxical sort of status).
But I'm going to put myself on the list of women who have really not experienced my relationships with other women in this way. My friends have always been nice and supportive to each other (even in competitive environments). While I've definitely encountered female bullies and assholes, their behavior wasn't much different than male bullies and assholes, and they weren't my friends.
And I've always been deeply offended by portrayals of women that suggest this competitiveness is normal, that women are naturally "catty" and cruel to other women, and so on. It goes hand-in-hand with the stereotype that we're more socially devious than men. Fuck that. I'm sure women like this exist, but to treat it as somehow a property of being a woman chafes me the wrong way.
I've lost two friendships due to a serious falling-out, and one of them was a boy telling me that he wouldn't be my friend anymore because I was a girl. Not as good as a boy. Talk about relational cruelty.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 9:36 AM on March 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
Sometimes I wonder how much being in a heavily male environment exacerbates the type of behavior in the article. It can be a good reason to stick together; it can also pit women against each other, because there are only so many roles available for women.
E.g. if you've internalized the pattern that the project team will have one woman on it but not more, then that puts you into competition with other women in the office. Or if you're the "cool girl" in a largely male social group, then the introduction of another woman threatens that part of your identity (from which you derive a paradoxical sort of status).
But I'm going to put myself on the list of women who have really not experienced my relationships with other women in this way. My friends have always been nice and supportive to each other (even in competitive environments). While I've definitely encountered female bullies and assholes, their behavior wasn't much different than male bullies and assholes, and they weren't my friends.
And I've always been deeply offended by portrayals of women that suggest this competitiveness is normal, that women are naturally "catty" and cruel to other women, and so on. It goes hand-in-hand with the stereotype that we're more socially devious than men. Fuck that. I'm sure women like this exist, but to treat it as somehow a property of being a woman chafes me the wrong way.
I've lost two friendships due to a serious falling-out, and one of them was a boy telling me that he wouldn't be my friend anymore because I was a girl. Not as good as a boy. Talk about relational cruelty.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 9:36 AM on March 29, 2016 [8 favorites]
Learning to let go of this game (and its close relative, the "I've just never met any women I like, for some reason, I guess I'm just one of the guys!" thing, which is just plain truth for some people but was a weird outcropping of self-loathing for me) was one of the best pieces of growth I managed to do in my twenties.
I still don't have many female friends because I don't have many friends, period. Super-introvert over here. But the ones I do have are wonderfully dear to me and completely free of that passive-aggressive competitive bullshit that characterized my teen and early-twenties friendships.
While I'm sure this isn't the case for everyone or even most people, I find it interesting that I started to let go of some of my unhealthiest ways of being friends with other women, right around the same time I started realizing I was attracted to other women. Leaves me wondering if it was all a coincidence of timing or if some of that was "I don't understand how to interact with this person because I'm not letting myself recognize my attraction to her, so I guess I'm just going to act out in weird ways to put distance between us while also keeping her just close enough."
posted by Stacey at 10:22 AM on March 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
I still don't have many female friends because I don't have many friends, period. Super-introvert over here. But the ones I do have are wonderfully dear to me and completely free of that passive-aggressive competitive bullshit that characterized my teen and early-twenties friendships.
While I'm sure this isn't the case for everyone or even most people, I find it interesting that I started to let go of some of my unhealthiest ways of being friends with other women, right around the same time I started realizing I was attracted to other women. Leaves me wondering if it was all a coincidence of timing or if some of that was "I don't understand how to interact with this person because I'm not letting myself recognize my attraction to her, so I guess I'm just going to act out in weird ways to put distance between us while also keeping her just close enough."
posted by Stacey at 10:22 AM on March 29, 2016 [4 favorites]
Perhaps these kinds of relations take place in that other female world that also contains makeup and high heels and competition
Or perhaps there are more than two "female worlds" and makeup and high heels have nothing to do with the way that some women can be very cruel to other women, and it's not that someone who hasn't experienced this kind of female-on-female bullying is somehow better or more enlightened than someone who has... maybe the person who hasn't experienced it is just lucky enough to not have experienced it.
posted by palomar at 2:50 PM on March 29, 2016 [12 favorites]
Or perhaps there are more than two "female worlds" and makeup and high heels have nothing to do with the way that some women can be very cruel to other women, and it's not that someone who hasn't experienced this kind of female-on-female bullying is somehow better or more enlightened than someone who has... maybe the person who hasn't experienced it is just lucky enough to not have experienced it.
posted by palomar at 2:50 PM on March 29, 2016 [12 favorites]
Or perhaps there are more than two "female worlds" and makeup and high heels have nothing to do with the way that some women can be very cruel to other women, and it's not that someone who hasn't experienced this kind of female-on-female bullying is somehow better or more enlightened than someone who has... maybe the person who hasn't experienced it is just lucky enough to not have experienced it.
This.
posted by Anonymous at 1:00 AM on March 30, 2016
This.
posted by Anonymous at 1:00 AM on March 30, 2016
As girls, we grow up learning not to trust other women, because we're told there are only so many opportunities to go around, only so many good men to be had, only so much beauty to be shared. We are lied to.
This article, but particularly the bit quoted above, described my childhood and adolescence to a T. The relationships we girls had with each other were wayyyy more intense than our crushes on boys or pop stars. I was bullied by a bunch of boys in my school, which was not a fun experience, but frankly being subtly put down by my close female friends caused me way more sleepless nights and hurt. We lived and died for each other's approval, which we got very rarely. I remember being that girl, too. I remember seeing my good friend (and we're still good friends, 20 years later) looking particularly nice one day, like she'd done something new to her hair or whatever, and even seeing this was like a punch to the gut, I felt completely defeated and a failure, because my friend happened to look good that day. It makes NO SENSE but it was how I had learned to feel.
I remember being on the receiving end of dozens of slights regarding my figure (I developed earlier than my friends, and I got constantly shamed for it - they'd tweak up my neckline ostentatiously while saying I looked like a ho) and my curly hair. But I also learned how to make people feel bad too. I knew what my friends were insecure about and I would make remarks designed to make them feel small. I don't feel proud of this at all! But I knew how to do it. I still know.
My relationships with women changed when I was at university. I don't feel any competitiveness with my friends anymore because we didn't share that bizarrely charged childhood. Being friends, and real friends with no hidden sense of rivalry, with lots of different women helped me to recalibrate my feelings about fellow women. I'm still close to some friends from pre-school and school and I feel like we have only just started to be comfortable and honest with each other. I still know what some of them are insecure about... so I know what makes them happy to hear and I try to give them that instead. These friends are profoundly and wonderfully supportive, it is good that we came out relatively unscathed from that messed-up competition that characterised our childhood. I don't think of us as rivals anymore, I think of us as fellow warriors.
posted by Ziggy500 at 2:29 AM on March 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
This article, but particularly the bit quoted above, described my childhood and adolescence to a T. The relationships we girls had with each other were wayyyy more intense than our crushes on boys or pop stars. I was bullied by a bunch of boys in my school, which was not a fun experience, but frankly being subtly put down by my close female friends caused me way more sleepless nights and hurt. We lived and died for each other's approval, which we got very rarely. I remember being that girl, too. I remember seeing my good friend (and we're still good friends, 20 years later) looking particularly nice one day, like she'd done something new to her hair or whatever, and even seeing this was like a punch to the gut, I felt completely defeated and a failure, because my friend happened to look good that day. It makes NO SENSE but it was how I had learned to feel.
I remember being on the receiving end of dozens of slights regarding my figure (I developed earlier than my friends, and I got constantly shamed for it - they'd tweak up my neckline ostentatiously while saying I looked like a ho) and my curly hair. But I also learned how to make people feel bad too. I knew what my friends were insecure about and I would make remarks designed to make them feel small. I don't feel proud of this at all! But I knew how to do it. I still know.
My relationships with women changed when I was at university. I don't feel any competitiveness with my friends anymore because we didn't share that bizarrely charged childhood. Being friends, and real friends with no hidden sense of rivalry, with lots of different women helped me to recalibrate my feelings about fellow women. I'm still close to some friends from pre-school and school and I feel like we have only just started to be comfortable and honest with each other. I still know what some of them are insecure about... so I know what makes them happy to hear and I try to give them that instead. These friends are profoundly and wonderfully supportive, it is good that we came out relatively unscathed from that messed-up competition that characterised our childhood. I don't think of us as rivals anymore, I think of us as fellow warriors.
posted by Ziggy500 at 2:29 AM on March 30, 2016 [4 favorites]
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