I got a little stoned, smoked some weed, put on the Superman costume.
April 2, 2016 5:36 PM Subscribe
Fucking producers who won't tell you what the budget is, they'll just randomly cancel things because they're "too expensive", that's what.
Oh, movie accounting, will you ever change?
posted by clawsoon at 7:27 PM on April 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh, movie accounting, will you ever change?
posted by clawsoon at 7:27 PM on April 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
A... bagel???
posted by Scattercat at 8:11 PM on April 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Scattercat at 8:11 PM on April 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yeah, OK, industry slang, I'm assuming, how would a bagely Jor-el play out?
posted by bird internet at 8:34 PM on April 2, 2016
posted by bird internet at 8:34 PM on April 2, 2016
I’m reading this thing and Superman’s looking for Lex Luthor in Metropolis, and he’s looking for every bald head in the city. And then he flies down and taps a guy on the shoulder and it‘s [Kojak’s] Telly Savalas, who hands him a lollipop and says, “Who loves ya, baby?”
Yes, I found this especially disrespectful.
posted by Alexander J. Luthor at 8:38 PM on April 2, 2016 [14 favorites]
Yes, I found this especially disrespectful.
posted by Alexander J. Luthor at 8:38 PM on April 2, 2016 [14 favorites]
how would a bagely Jor-el play out?
I'm thinking Jewish and tough.
And good with cream cheese.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:45 PM on April 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm thinking Jewish and tough.
And good with cream cheese.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:45 PM on April 2, 2016 [3 favorites]
Donner's overt infantilization of Kidder grossed me out. Creatives are more prone to breakdowns than most, but I suspect Donner contributed to hers.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 8:50 PM on April 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by lazycomputerkids at 8:50 PM on April 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
A... bagel???
I suppose they also would have changed Superman's nemesis to Lox Luthor.
posted by New Frontier at 9:09 PM on April 2, 2016 [12 favorites]
I suppose they also would have changed Superman's nemesis to Lox Luthor.
posted by New Frontier at 9:09 PM on April 2, 2016 [12 favorites]
There was a law after that: every morning people had to come to me and make sure she didn't have her contacts in, and that she would act without her contacts. It just made her wonderful.And THAT'S why Lois Lane never recognized Clark Kent was Superman!
posted by happyroach at 9:21 PM on April 2, 2016 [15 favorites]
Superman Inside Stories Live: Part 1, Part 2
posted by flabdablet at 9:36 PM on April 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 9:36 PM on April 2, 2016 [4 favorites]
Strange that the producers were so concerned about shaving costs but go into the production with an actor who will end up getting paid over $1 million per day of shooting for a non-lead role. (I mean really, the audience is there for Kal-El, his dad could have been played by Don Knotts for all I cared)
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:48 PM on April 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:48 PM on April 2, 2016 [5 favorites]
I've never quite understood - how do the Marvel guys get away with a character just as hokey as Superman - aka Captain America - make him relevant and make him staunch and make him true to the vision of the character - "all of the best things of the American vision of itself". Yet, DC is sitting there with the big blue boy scout and can't do a damn thing right with him? At least Batman has the varying cycles of history of grim/light/grim - Supes has largely been true blue do good until recently. Heck, I'm not even a Superman fan and Synder's films feel so wrong.
posted by drewbage1847 at 10:18 PM on April 2, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by drewbage1847 at 10:18 PM on April 2, 2016 [13 favorites]
It helps that Cap's main flaw is he's human and Supes' main flaw is he's not.
posted by gingerest at 10:27 PM on April 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by gingerest at 10:27 PM on April 2, 2016 [6 favorites]
Yeah, OK, industry slang, I'm assuming, how would a bagely Jor-el play out?
ATHF-y?
posted by mikelieman at 11:58 PM on April 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
ATHF-y?
posted by mikelieman at 11:58 PM on April 2, 2016 [2 favorites]
I thought superheroes are supposed to be assholes - - why was that old school Superman so super heroic?
posted by fairmettle at 12:44 AM on April 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by fairmettle at 12:44 AM on April 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
I highly recommend episode 24.1 of the How Did This Get Made? podcast for wild set tales by Jack O'Halloran, who played bearded baddie Non in the first two movies. As I recall he had hilarious beef with both Donner and Reeve.
posted by Chichibio at 1:17 AM on April 3, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by Chichibio at 1:17 AM on April 3, 2016 [10 favorites]
I suppose they also would have changed Superman's nemesis to Lox Luthor.
Booooo.
posted by Alexander J. Luthor at 5:30 AM on April 3, 2016 [6 favorites]
Booooo.
posted by Alexander J. Luthor at 5:30 AM on April 3, 2016 [6 favorites]
Nice interview but I wish it was a little longer. It's amazing how a great movie can come out of such a chaotic production environment.
posted by octothorpe at 5:46 AM on April 3, 2016
posted by octothorpe at 5:46 AM on April 3, 2016
Donner's DVD commentaries (with writer Mankiewicz) on Superman I and II are some of the funnest I've heard for any movie.
posted by gubo at 5:52 AM on April 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by gubo at 5:52 AM on April 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Watching this Making of Superman video right now. Kidder is hilarious and seems very fond of Donner.
posted by octothorpe at 6:37 AM on April 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 6:37 AM on April 3, 2016 [5 favorites]
Oh, it was a Mankiewicz. That explains that.
posted by Zerowensboring at 6:41 AM on April 3, 2016
posted by Zerowensboring at 6:41 AM on April 3, 2016
I've never quite understood - how do the Marvel guys get away with a character just as hokey as Superman - aka Captain America - make him relevant and make him staunch and make him true to the vision of the character - "all of the best things of the American vision of itself".
I know this is oldest criticism of Superman ever, but a lot of the difference is that Superman is too powerful, while Cap is barely powerful enough. Before the serum, Steve was tiny and weak, but compared to the Hulk, Thor, and Iron Man, not to mention the bad guys, he still is. The only thing that has never changed, through growing getting picked on, to fighting a war, to traveling to a crazy cyberpunk future, and fighting aliens and robots, is that in whatever fight he is in, he is always physically outmatched. That's what makes this exchange in Avengers so magnificent:
Not only is Cap a physical underdog, but mockery of his square-jawed Boy Scout image follows him around in-universe. The soldiers in Europe make fun of his hokey variety show, and we kind of see their point. In Snyder's movies, people might hate or fear Superman, but can you imagine anyone working up enough courage to laugh at Superman?
But despite discouragements and obstacles that would have Superman reaching for the Kryptonite pills, Cap always gets back up. He's an American soldier. He doesn't like bullies. He could do this all day.
Ironically, of course, even though Cap represents America's preferred image of itself, we haven't really been the underdog for over a hundred years. We're much more like Superman, with more strength than understanding. Better Superman movies could have helped us come to terms with this a little better. Maybe on the next reboot.
posted by officer_fred at 7:07 AM on April 3, 2016 [22 favorites]
I know this is oldest criticism of Superman ever, but a lot of the difference is that Superman is too powerful, while Cap is barely powerful enough. Before the serum, Steve was tiny and weak, but compared to the Hulk, Thor, and Iron Man, not to mention the bad guys, he still is. The only thing that has never changed, through growing getting picked on, to fighting a war, to traveling to a crazy cyberpunk future, and fighting aliens and robots, is that in whatever fight he is in, he is always physically outmatched. That's what makes this exchange in Avengers so magnificent:
Natasha: "I'd sit this one out, Cap."The heart sings. Superman could never match this. He can't stand up to the gods because he is one. You can love, pray to, or fear a god, but one thing you can't do root for one.
Steve: "I don't see how I can."
Natasha: "These guys come from legend. They're basically gods."
Steve: "There's only one God, ma'am. And I'm pretty sure He doesn't dress like that." (Jumps out of plane)
Not only is Cap a physical underdog, but mockery of his square-jawed Boy Scout image follows him around in-universe. The soldiers in Europe make fun of his hokey variety show, and we kind of see their point. In Snyder's movies, people might hate or fear Superman, but can you imagine anyone working up enough courage to laugh at Superman?
But despite discouragements and obstacles that would have Superman reaching for the Kryptonite pills, Cap always gets back up. He's an American soldier. He doesn't like bullies. He could do this all day.
Ironically, of course, even though Cap represents America's preferred image of itself, we haven't really been the underdog for over a hundred years. We're much more like Superman, with more strength than understanding. Better Superman movies could have helped us come to terms with this a little better. Maybe on the next reboot.
posted by officer_fred at 7:07 AM on April 3, 2016 [22 favorites]
“Problem quite honestly, buster, is I got to get a guy that is bulk, that looks like a muscle zoo.”
Man, these Clickhole oral histories are getting less and less believable
posted by Cookiebastard at 8:09 AM on April 3, 2016
Man, these Clickhole oral histories are getting less and less believable
posted by Cookiebastard at 8:09 AM on April 3, 2016
A New York bagel has a thin crisp and hard shell on the outside and is moist and tender on the inside. Damn. Now I want a Jor-el with a schmear.
posted by Splunge at 9:16 AM on April 3, 2016
posted by Splunge at 9:16 AM on April 3, 2016
Cap and Superman both work fine in the comics depending on who's writing, of course. As for the films, there's another big reason Cap works while Supes doesn't: the filmmakers frame Cap's story around the premise that weaponized morality isn't a personality flaw, and that this is something you can play straight. It's there in his very first scene in the first movie. Someone asks him if he's thinking twice about enlisting, and he says "Nope" because he believes it and doesn't need to justify it. Cap is thoroughly honest with himself about who he is and what he believes, and the filmmakers let him do that.
Snyder doesn't seem to get that. He doesn't want that. I see a little of that in Whedon's writing of Cap in the Avengers, too: it's not that he can't write a solid and genuinely loving treatment of Cap, it's that he's not interested. Superman could work just fine in a film, and Cap's success absolutely proves that. You simply have to give the project so someone who wants to show that Superman. DC/WB keep handing it off to someone who wants something else.
A couple years back I saw an article contrasting Cap with Man of Steel and I think some other character (I think maybe the "gritty" Cap of the Ultimates universe). It argued that the reason many people can't accept a fundamentally decent, moral hero, and why they have to "gritty" everything up and make everyone into assholes, is because they are themselves assholes. I wish I could find that article again, 'cause I've had need of it in recent weeks.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:21 AM on April 3, 2016 [10 favorites]
Snyder doesn't seem to get that. He doesn't want that. I see a little of that in Whedon's writing of Cap in the Avengers, too: it's not that he can't write a solid and genuinely loving treatment of Cap, it's that he's not interested. Superman could work just fine in a film, and Cap's success absolutely proves that. You simply have to give the project so someone who wants to show that Superman. DC/WB keep handing it off to someone who wants something else.
A couple years back I saw an article contrasting Cap with Man of Steel and I think some other character (I think maybe the "gritty" Cap of the Ultimates universe). It argued that the reason many people can't accept a fundamentally decent, moral hero, and why they have to "gritty" everything up and make everyone into assholes, is because they are themselves assholes. I wish I could find that article again, 'cause I've had need of it in recent weeks.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:21 AM on April 3, 2016 [10 favorites]
Supes should fight the Klan again.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:23 AM on April 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:23 AM on April 3, 2016 [4 favorites]
Supes should fight the Klan again.
I think Frank Miller actually pitched that recently, but for some reason he wanted the Klan to win.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 11:41 AM on April 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
I think Frank Miller actually pitched that recently, but for some reason he wanted the Klan to win.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 11:41 AM on April 3, 2016 [8 favorites]
I thought superheroes are supposed to be assholes - - why was that old school Superman so super heroic?
asshole superheroes are a major revisionist trope stemming primarily from writing originating the 1970s and 1980s, depending on how you look at it.
Superman was created in the 1930s by a couple of skinny teenagers. His invention actually led to the creation of the whole genre of superhero comics, give or take, and he was a *huge* cultural phenomenon. His boy-scoutishness, his godlike purity, stem in part from the cultural expectations for youth-oriented entertainment in the era, and in part because of the real-world horrors that were ginning up at the time of his creation.
There's a raft of material that looks at this, about how Superman is a wish-fulfilment projection of moral purity and invincible strength - for my money, Michael Chabon's Kavalier & Klay is the gold standard on this subject, despite the fact that it's a novel and not really an historical account.
One of the things about Snyder's films that are so frustrating is that he so obviously knows and reveres the 1980s material that kicked off the revitalization of the superhero genre and yet his work seems limited by them rather than inspired by them.
There's another thread here about an appreciation for the Supergirl tv series in which it is conveyed that Supergirl's dramatic and tragedian flaw is her essential split identity as an adoptee, which is a useful contemporary way to redefine the Kryptonians among us. Seems like that could be a way to ungrim Supes proper too while bringing back a modicum of dramatic tension to his depiction, to his inner life.
posted by mwhybark at 11:52 AM on April 3, 2016 [7 favorites]
asshole superheroes are a major revisionist trope stemming primarily from writing originating the 1970s and 1980s, depending on how you look at it.
Superman was created in the 1930s by a couple of skinny teenagers. His invention actually led to the creation of the whole genre of superhero comics, give or take, and he was a *huge* cultural phenomenon. His boy-scoutishness, his godlike purity, stem in part from the cultural expectations for youth-oriented entertainment in the era, and in part because of the real-world horrors that were ginning up at the time of his creation.
There's a raft of material that looks at this, about how Superman is a wish-fulfilment projection of moral purity and invincible strength - for my money, Michael Chabon's Kavalier & Klay is the gold standard on this subject, despite the fact that it's a novel and not really an historical account.
One of the things about Snyder's films that are so frustrating is that he so obviously knows and reveres the 1980s material that kicked off the revitalization of the superhero genre and yet his work seems limited by them rather than inspired by them.
There's another thread here about an appreciation for the Supergirl tv series in which it is conveyed that Supergirl's dramatic and tragedian flaw is her essential split identity as an adoptee, which is a useful contemporary way to redefine the Kryptonians among us. Seems like that could be a way to ungrim Supes proper too while bringing back a modicum of dramatic tension to his depiction, to his inner life.
posted by mwhybark at 11:52 AM on April 3, 2016 [7 favorites]
why was that old school Superman so super heroic?
In 1933, a lunatic dictator had ascended to power in Europe, having written a bestseller promulgating his fantasy of a racial superman who would save the world from (foreign) inferior humans. The term he appropriated to describe him was the Übermensch.
Also in 1933, a couple of high school kids in the US, both from immigrant backgrounds, began collaborating on a character from another planet, who came to Earth with powers and abilities far beyond those of ordinary men but who, rather than subjugate them, would defend them in a never-ending battle for truth and justice. It took them several years to work out all the now-familiar details of his background, but from the start they called him Superman.
By 1938, the dictator had declared himself the supreme commander of his military and prepared to make war on the continent and, ultimately, the world, in the name of his master race.
Also in 1938, the aforementioned writer-artist team debuted their character in a four-color comic book: "Superman! Champion of the oppressed, the physical marvel who had sworn to devote his existence to helping those in need."
It's really not that complicated. The best myths aren't.
posted by Doktor Zed at 12:34 PM on April 3, 2016 [12 favorites]
In 1933, a lunatic dictator had ascended to power in Europe, having written a bestseller promulgating his fantasy of a racial superman who would save the world from (foreign) inferior humans. The term he appropriated to describe him was the Übermensch.
Also in 1933, a couple of high school kids in the US, both from immigrant backgrounds, began collaborating on a character from another planet, who came to Earth with powers and abilities far beyond those of ordinary men but who, rather than subjugate them, would defend them in a never-ending battle for truth and justice. It took them several years to work out all the now-familiar details of his background, but from the start they called him Superman.
By 1938, the dictator had declared himself the supreme commander of his military and prepared to make war on the continent and, ultimately, the world, in the name of his master race.
Also in 1938, the aforementioned writer-artist team debuted their character in a four-color comic book: "Superman! Champion of the oppressed, the physical marvel who had sworn to devote his existence to helping those in need."
It's really not that complicated. The best myths aren't.
posted by Doktor Zed at 12:34 PM on April 3, 2016 [12 favorites]
Jewish immigrants, no less.
posted by atoxyl at 2:02 PM on April 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by atoxyl at 2:02 PM on April 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Michael Chabon's Kavalier & Klay
Seconded. You needn't even be a comics fan to love this book.
posted by oheso at 2:44 PM on April 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Seconded. You needn't even be a comics fan to love this book.
posted by oheso at 2:44 PM on April 3, 2016 [3 favorites]
Jewish immigrants, no less.
It should go without saying, of course — not that Goebbels's anti-Superman propaganda didn't point this out extensively when banning the comics in order to prevent the corruption of young Aryans' minds.
At any rate, a lot of telling details were omitted in my previous post for the sake of approaching the zeitgeist from a slightly opaque perspective. Although the concept of the superman had been freely circulating in politics and culture - from would-be Nietzscheans and eugenics advocates to Shaw's "Man and Superman" and Lester Dent's pulp hero, Doc Savage - Siegel and Shuster's creation of a superman that is morally incorruptible as well as physically perfect is the one that still resonates in the public imagination.
posted by Doktor Zed at 3:10 PM on April 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
It should go without saying, of course — not that Goebbels's anti-Superman propaganda didn't point this out extensively when banning the comics in order to prevent the corruption of young Aryans' minds.
At any rate, a lot of telling details were omitted in my previous post for the sake of approaching the zeitgeist from a slightly opaque perspective. Although the concept of the superman had been freely circulating in politics and culture - from would-be Nietzscheans and eugenics advocates to Shaw's "Man and Superman" and Lester Dent's pulp hero, Doc Savage - Siegel and Shuster's creation of a superman that is morally incorruptible as well as physically perfect is the one that still resonates in the public imagination.
posted by Doktor Zed at 3:10 PM on April 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah I wasn't under the impression that Superman was meant as a direct rebuttal of Hitler - you probably know a lot more about this than I do though - but it's not surprising that the concept resonated at that moment in history.
posted by atoxyl at 3:14 PM on April 3, 2016
posted by atoxyl at 3:14 PM on April 3, 2016
(Of course once the war was on he did his part and knocked some Nazi heads together)
posted by atoxyl at 3:35 PM on April 3, 2016
posted by atoxyl at 3:35 PM on April 3, 2016
Yeah I wasn't under the impression that Superman was meant as a direct rebuttal of Hitler
I didn't want to imply this was the case back in 1933 or even 1938, only the interesting parallels in the context of the zeitgeist.
(Of course once the war was on he did his part and knocked some Nazi heads together)
Most definitely! Even before the US joined the Allies, Superman was directly rebutting Hitler... with "a strictly non-Aryan sock on [his] jaw" before dragging him and Stalin to face trial at the League of Nations.
posted by Doktor Zed at 3:40 PM on April 3, 2016
I didn't want to imply this was the case back in 1933 or even 1938, only the interesting parallels in the context of the zeitgeist.
(Of course once the war was on he did his part and knocked some Nazi heads together)
Most definitely! Even before the US joined the Allies, Superman was directly rebutting Hitler... with "a strictly non-Aryan sock on [his] jaw" before dragging him and Stalin to face trial at the League of Nations.
posted by Doktor Zed at 3:40 PM on April 3, 2016
So late to this thread but I had to comment because I love this movie.
Not only do I just love it for loving it, but it's also wrapped up in major childhood memories for me.
In December 1978 I was 10, and we drove from Toronto to Orlando, Florida to spend Christmas with my grandparents, who owned a place in Winter Park. Kind of a weird townhousey complex thing that had all these rules; for example we couldn't swim in the pool that was right outside my grandparents' door, that was ADULTS ONLY. We had to walk through this maze-like system of paths to the other pool in the complex, that was the kids' one. And we couldn't be loud, we were always getting shushed. It seemed like there were always grouchy old people with rules, and they always had cocktails.
Anyhow, I remember one day it was raining, so we couldn't swim and we were bored and we ended up at the giant American mall. The same mall where, earlier, my dad had bought a "Johnny Carson" label dinner jacket, in canary yellow, at the JC Penny. I remember this was such a big deal, dad's new jacket with the JOHNNY CARSON label. Also the same mall where my brother and I shopped for each other's Christmas presents with some cash my parents gave us. He was 15 so he told me what to buy: Steve Martin's Let's Get Small for him and Ted Nugget's Cat Scratch Fever for me. I still have both albums.
So there was a movie theatre at this mall and my parents dropped my brother and I off to see Superman.
It was so great. I remember it seemed like FOREVER before he finally finished the whole educational Fortress of Solitude thing and emerged from his icy cocoon as SUPERMAN and zoomed towards the screen with totally real-ass looking flying skills. I think I talked about that movie for days.
When we emerged from the theatre the sky was a creepy orange and the rain was insane and there were all these hurricane warnings on the radio which was terrifying for this Toronto boy.
It has been mandatory for me to watch this movie if it is ever on TV, since then. Even though, with commercials, you are in for a 4 hour slog. That credit sequence alone barely get you to the first commercial.
posted by chococat at 4:20 PM on April 3, 2016 [11 favorites]
Not only do I just love it for loving it, but it's also wrapped up in major childhood memories for me.
In December 1978 I was 10, and we drove from Toronto to Orlando, Florida to spend Christmas with my grandparents, who owned a place in Winter Park. Kind of a weird townhousey complex thing that had all these rules; for example we couldn't swim in the pool that was right outside my grandparents' door, that was ADULTS ONLY. We had to walk through this maze-like system of paths to the other pool in the complex, that was the kids' one. And we couldn't be loud, we were always getting shushed. It seemed like there were always grouchy old people with rules, and they always had cocktails.
Anyhow, I remember one day it was raining, so we couldn't swim and we were bored and we ended up at the giant American mall. The same mall where, earlier, my dad had bought a "Johnny Carson" label dinner jacket, in canary yellow, at the JC Penny. I remember this was such a big deal, dad's new jacket with the JOHNNY CARSON label. Also the same mall where my brother and I shopped for each other's Christmas presents with some cash my parents gave us. He was 15 so he told me what to buy: Steve Martin's Let's Get Small for him and Ted Nugget's Cat Scratch Fever for me. I still have both albums.
So there was a movie theatre at this mall and my parents dropped my brother and I off to see Superman.
It was so great. I remember it seemed like FOREVER before he finally finished the whole educational Fortress of Solitude thing and emerged from his icy cocoon as SUPERMAN and zoomed towards the screen with totally real-ass looking flying skills. I think I talked about that movie for days.
When we emerged from the theatre the sky was a creepy orange and the rain was insane and there were all these hurricane warnings on the radio which was terrifying for this Toronto boy.
It has been mandatory for me to watch this movie if it is ever on TV, since then. Even though, with commercials, you are in for a 4 hour slog. That credit sequence alone barely get you to the first commercial.
posted by chococat at 4:20 PM on April 3, 2016 [11 favorites]
*Nugent. Another awesome thing about the 70's was no autocorrect.
posted by chococat at 5:41 PM on April 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by chococat at 5:41 PM on April 3, 2016 [1 favorite]
*Nugent. Another awesome thing about the 70's was no autocorrect.
Nugget isn't bad. It's what we called him back in the 70's. Although I think I'd have gone with Nougat ...
posted by oheso at 3:31 AM on April 4, 2016
Nugget isn't bad. It's what we called him back in the 70's. Although I think I'd have gone with Nougat ...
posted by oheso at 3:31 AM on April 4, 2016
Mmm...chicken-hawk nuggets. Yum
posted by ambulocetus at 1:16 PM on April 4, 2016
posted by ambulocetus at 1:16 PM on April 4, 2016
[H]ow do the Marvel guys get away with a character just as hokey as Superman - aka Captain America - make him relevant [...] Yet, DC is sitting there with the big blue boy scout and can't do a damn thing right with him?
I think the main problem here, and I would trace this all the way back to 1989's Batman, is that DC's movie output makes them seem fundamentally embarrassed by their comic book origins. Like they're trying to say, "oh, geez, look, we know this is based on comics for kids, but honestly, this is a serious, grown-up movie for serious grown-ups." So they try to be all realistic, whatever the hell that could possibly mean in this context, and for some reason, that usually seems to mean that a belief that someone could be genuinely noble and heroic is a childish notion better left abandoned. Whereas Marvel's own movies have fully embraced their source material from the get-go.
posted by webmutant at 7:13 PM on April 4, 2016
I think the main problem here, and I would trace this all the way back to 1989's Batman, is that DC's movie output makes them seem fundamentally embarrassed by their comic book origins. Like they're trying to say, "oh, geez, look, we know this is based on comics for kids, but honestly, this is a serious, grown-up movie for serious grown-ups." So they try to be all realistic, whatever the hell that could possibly mean in this context, and for some reason, that usually seems to mean that a belief that someone could be genuinely noble and heroic is a childish notion better left abandoned. Whereas Marvel's own movies have fully embraced their source material from the get-go.
posted by webmutant at 7:13 PM on April 4, 2016
You're neglecting a certain television show dating to the 1960s if you wanna survey DC's history with ironist narrative in media adaptations. To be sure, the actual books themselves in the 50s were full-on nuts, loopy and inspired. I would kinda love to see a non-ironist adaptation of some Bob Kane hallucinations.
posted by mwhybark at 10:57 PM on April 4, 2016
posted by mwhybark at 10:57 PM on April 4, 2016
Oh, believe me, I'm not forgetting the 1960's Batman series. Big fan. That's why I only said I'd trace the problem back to 1989.
posted by webmutant at 11:46 AM on April 5, 2016
posted by webmutant at 11:46 AM on April 5, 2016
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posted by Doktor Zed at 6:18 PM on April 2, 2016 [23 favorites]