"... I suppose I thought there’d be more of a narrative arc."
April 13, 2016 10:47 PM Subscribe
What's a narrative? Literature provides plenty of fragmented, disordered examples; more messed up than real life experience (which, for example, generally occurs in chronological order). If we allow disorderly narratives, then any knowledge of one's own life qualifies. I suppose what we're really after is not just a narrative, but one that points to, or constitutes a coherent self, or perhaps a satisfactory self; and that's what Strawson is denying - that Strawson as an entity is satisfactory, or perhaps merely that he is coherent.
posted by Segundus at 11:42 PM on April 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Segundus at 11:42 PM on April 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
The narrative I tell myself about my life is something I pay close attention to on a regular basis. The couple of times in my life where I have had serious get-out-the-medication-or-die depression, the way I constructed narrative turned out (in retrospect) to be a key signal that things were not right.
And it's interesting, because I can come up with a bunch of different narratives that are all true, but some of them fit together the pleasing parts of the jigsaw and discard as outliers the negative stuff, and other build the negative pieces one on top of the next to draw a sort of conclusion like "and so obviously I'm doomed and everything always goes wrong".
I guess it's the glass half-full vs glass half-empty dichotomy, but with more storyline and character development.
posted by lollusc at 11:59 PM on April 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
And it's interesting, because I can come up with a bunch of different narratives that are all true, but some of them fit together the pleasing parts of the jigsaw and discard as outliers the negative stuff, and other build the negative pieces one on top of the next to draw a sort of conclusion like "and so obviously I'm doomed and everything always goes wrong".
I guess it's the glass half-full vs glass half-empty dichotomy, but with more storyline and character development.
posted by lollusc at 11:59 PM on April 13, 2016 [10 favorites]
I strongly associate the narrative-autobiographical urge with emotional immaturity and drama-seeking behavior.
I respect and cherish people capable of telling their life story as comedy.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 12:04 AM on April 14, 2016 [19 favorites]
I respect and cherish people capable of telling their life story as comedy.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 12:04 AM on April 14, 2016 [19 favorites]
For a long time now, I've been of the conviction that I do not write my life, it is life that writes me.*
* And this comment only attests to the fact. I'd already written a three-paragraph explication of the above statement only to witness it gone in a flash due to problems with the internet.
posted by sapagan at 12:40 AM on April 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
* And this comment only attests to the fact. I'd already written a three-paragraph explication of the above statement only to witness it gone in a flash due to problems with the internet.
posted by sapagan at 12:40 AM on April 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
And it's interesting, because I can come up with a bunch of different narratives that are all true, but some of them fit together the pleasing parts of the jigsaw and discard as outliers the negative stuff, and other build the negative pieces one on top of the next to draw a sort of conclusion like "and so obviously I'm doomed and everything always goes wrong".
My own experience with mental health stuff involved a lot of narrative questioning, too. For me it was always a distinct sense that I was lacking continuity, that I couldn't believe my childhood was connected to who I became as an adult. I've noticed that when I'm doing better, I can suddenly start connecting everything together a little bit better. When I'm doing badly, it stops making sense again. Sometimes it seems too perfect, or kind of eerie.
posted by teponaztli at 12:57 AM on April 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
My own experience with mental health stuff involved a lot of narrative questioning, too. For me it was always a distinct sense that I was lacking continuity, that I couldn't believe my childhood was connected to who I became as an adult. I've noticed that when I'm doing better, I can suddenly start connecting everything together a little bit better. When I'm doing badly, it stops making sense again. Sometimes it seems too perfect, or kind of eerie.
posted by teponaztli at 12:57 AM on April 14, 2016 [3 favorites]
Also, there's a whole branch of therapy known as "narrative therapy," which obviously places a lot of emphasis on that particular way of seeing things. Some people find it very useful. Personally, I like it as an alternative to the purely bio-medical view of things, even if it's not necessarily perfect as an approach. But if you think the bio-medical way of looking at things is maybe not accurate, or that it removes some of your agency, then narrative therapy can be more empowering (or at least validating).
posted by teponaztli at 1:01 AM on April 14, 2016
posted by teponaztli at 1:01 AM on April 14, 2016
It's self-linking time! (I think there's a pun in that)
I'll try to something intelligent to say about this later.
posted by leibniz at 1:53 AM on April 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'll try to something intelligent to say about this later.
posted by leibniz at 1:53 AM on April 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
I identify with Strawsom in these matters, but I recognize that's the minority experience.
But let's not discount the possibility that Strawson and other philosophers unable to experience self-identity over time are not human.
posted by anotherpanacea at 3:34 AM on April 14, 2016 [5 favorites]
But let's not discount the possibility that Strawson and other philosophers unable to experience self-identity over time are not human.
posted by anotherpanacea at 3:34 AM on April 14, 2016 [5 favorites]
a certain willingness to accept human experience as the bewildering set of jagged pieces that it is.
Still a narrative. Nothing mature about giving up on meaning. But it can make it easier to be passively accepting of economic injustice, which can render people's lives into incomprehensible stories in service to its pursuits. Mature people have more honest narratives but revise them as they grow.
posted by saulgoodman at 5:13 AM on April 14, 2016 [6 favorites]
Still a narrative. Nothing mature about giving up on meaning. But it can make it easier to be passively accepting of economic injustice, which can render people's lives into incomprehensible stories in service to its pursuits. Mature people have more honest narratives but revise them as they grow.
posted by saulgoodman at 5:13 AM on April 14, 2016 [6 favorites]
Some of the most immature, selfish people you will ever meet relish seeing the world as a meaningless serious of events. It allows them to rationalize being crappy and impulsive.
posted by saulgoodman at 5:19 AM on April 14, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by saulgoodman at 5:19 AM on April 14, 2016 [15 favorites]
But thinking of your life as a story rather than relating to events through and using stories to understand your life, yeah, that's also an attitude that leads to problems, if that's what you meant. Life's not a story, but we have no other recourse than to think about life in story. If you aren't thinking about your life at all, then that's problematic, too. It's a fine distinction. But I agree that thinking of yourself actively as a character in a story in daily life, not just using story to reflect, is bad news. That's basically a form of dissociation.
posted by saulgoodman at 5:58 AM on April 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by saulgoodman at 5:58 AM on April 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
[ok, that's the best I could articulate my thoughts on the matter:]
This can very easily go into extremes: either we have a narrative and every event is put into its rightful place with its rightful meaning, or there is no narrative at all, events stand alone, and there is no meaning to be found anywhere. Either full meaning or nonsense.
This can maybe be bypassed by shifting the focus more on the role of the 'author', the narrator. If we understand the self, the individual, the person - whatever we'd want to call them - as the author of its own narration, the implication is that they're in control; they have the means to write their life into a sequence of events whose meaning derives from that person. And this also means that the person in question is, to an extent, an isolated, self-contained entity: they're authoring a narrative which belongs strictly to them. Being an author of one's own narrative means that one owns its meanings, and also those of every other character in their narrative.
If, however, we understand that the narrator is not in control, does not have sovereign control of their life events and those that are acting aroud these events, a whole other ethical dimension opens up: how do I (mostly unknowingly) interfere into other people's lives the same way as they interfere in mine? Understanding that one is not the sole author of one's narrative can make one a more thoughtful person. This, of course, means also that one has to acknowledge the fact that they're self (individuality) is a creation of social relations. There's no doubt that there's still a narrative aspect (but not a narrative, a single life story) in how one makes sense of one's life; it's just that you can't create a life without being influenced and influencing other lives, that is, without also helping to create (or hindering) other people's meaningful existence.
tl;dr: Meaning does not necessarily need a narrative, it needs context. And one cannot, fortunately, be the author (be in charge) of one's (social, cultural, historical, etc.) context. This does not, however, preclude responsible behaviour.
posted by sapagan at 6:31 AM on April 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
This can very easily go into extremes: either we have a narrative and every event is put into its rightful place with its rightful meaning, or there is no narrative at all, events stand alone, and there is no meaning to be found anywhere. Either full meaning or nonsense.
This can maybe be bypassed by shifting the focus more on the role of the 'author', the narrator. If we understand the self, the individual, the person - whatever we'd want to call them - as the author of its own narration, the implication is that they're in control; they have the means to write their life into a sequence of events whose meaning derives from that person. And this also means that the person in question is, to an extent, an isolated, self-contained entity: they're authoring a narrative which belongs strictly to them. Being an author of one's own narrative means that one owns its meanings, and also those of every other character in their narrative.
If, however, we understand that the narrator is not in control, does not have sovereign control of their life events and those that are acting aroud these events, a whole other ethical dimension opens up: how do I (mostly unknowingly) interfere into other people's lives the same way as they interfere in mine? Understanding that one is not the sole author of one's narrative can make one a more thoughtful person. This, of course, means also that one has to acknowledge the fact that they're self (individuality) is a creation of social relations. There's no doubt that there's still a narrative aspect (but not a narrative, a single life story) in how one makes sense of one's life; it's just that you can't create a life without being influenced and influencing other lives, that is, without also helping to create (or hindering) other people's meaningful existence.
tl;dr: Meaning does not necessarily need a narrative, it needs context. And one cannot, fortunately, be the author (be in charge) of one's (social, cultural, historical, etc.) context. This does not, however, preclude responsible behaviour.
posted by sapagan at 6:31 AM on April 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Your life story would not make a good book. Don't even try." - Fran Lebowitz
posted by judson at 6:36 AM on April 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by judson at 6:36 AM on April 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
Conidering life as a story is a harmless conceit. It's definitely a conceit, though, bound up with the idea that our lives somehow are important or have some meaning. I suspect this is cultural and more common in Western or Judeo-Christian settings. In it's simplest sense, the conceit of free will, choices, and some omniscient observer or critic measuring and judging a person's existence vs fate and acceptance. It would be interesting to hear from other Mefites if such a view of life as a narrative is more universal.
I suppose the range of "narrative" could extend from the Odyssey to a short pithy comment on event(s). Perhaps our lives are best thought of as a collection of short stories; vignettes of mundane occurrences, mostly poorly written, usually ending in disappointment - sort of like Hamlet said, but hopefully without the sound and fury. There are certainly episodes in life that make good tale.
posted by sudogeek at 6:40 AM on April 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
I suppose the range of "narrative" could extend from the Odyssey to a short pithy comment on event(s). Perhaps our lives are best thought of as a collection of short stories; vignettes of mundane occurrences, mostly poorly written, usually ending in disappointment - sort of like Hamlet said, but hopefully without the sound and fury. There are certainly episodes in life that make good tale.
posted by sudogeek at 6:40 AM on April 14, 2016 [1 favorite]
"The other is that the act of telling is a rehearsal of the story, Pasupathi says. “And rehearsal strengthens connections between some pieces of information in your mind and diminishes connections between others. So the things I tell you become more accessible to me and more memorable to me. Those can be pretty lasting effects.” "
So I had kind-of a traumatic first birth, where the one thing I was terrified of (a C-section) turned out to be what happened at the last minute, and it was a difficult C-section because the baby was badly malpositioned. And being able to tell the story over and over and over again to people (family, friends) was really important in me being able to get over what was, in retrospect, kinda traumatic. And I've noticed that for women who were in a similar situation to mine, there are two kinds of stories -- "this horrible thing happened to me and I was subjected to a bunch of stuff I didn't want and I am angry and I lost out on the birth I wanted," (sometimes to the point of struggling to bond with the baby because the birth was "wrong"), and "this horrible thing happened to me, but luckily my medical team was able to intervene and give me a safe, healthy baby." And the stories we tell about ourselves, similarly -- I've heard a lot of women who had similar C-section situations talk about "I failed, I couldn't do it, I wasn't good enough" (and that narrative is way fucking reinforced in the "birth literature" about birth plans and that tell you all you have to do to get a baby going the right direction is shining a flashlight up your vagina I AM NOT KIDDING while doing certain yoga poses and if your baby didn't flip it's your fault.). What I told myself was, "This was the most terrifying thing I've ever done, but because I had to be strong for you [the baby], I did it." Which made me feel really strong and confident starting out parenting a newborn, that I'd already managed to navigate and handle pretty much the scariest thing that ever happened to me, solely because it was necessary for the baby, and it wasn't that bad. So I could handle explosive poops! (I apply this only to people who had the same sort of C-section I did for the same reasons, not for people who had much scarier or emergent experiences, which are way more traumatic and difficult.)
Anyway, my story (like a lot of people's) was "I was brave, I was strong, I had people who helped me and made everything okay." And from some other people in my cohort, I hear, "I was scared, I had no control, I had no choices." And these are both true stories (both true for both groups of us!), but I think the former method of telling it helped me get past the trauma relatively rapidly and feel confident about parenting; and definitely if I had had the second narrative, I would not have felt able to have another baby.
And actually telling the story over and over in the days right after birth really helped me organize and cement that narrative and my overwhelming feeling ever since has been gratitude that I had modern medicine on my side and confidence that I Did The Scary Thing even though I was scared. (And I think it only happened because I was so relieved I survived The Scary Thing that I was naturally in a good mood when I started telling it.)
Now when bad shit happens to me I try to actively think about how I want to frame that story to myself, because wow does it make a difference in being able to get past and get over it, vs. finding myself in depression and anxiety spirals. I mean it's not magic, you can't storytell yourself out of everything, but it's a tool that helps me.
And with my kids when something scary or upsetting happens to them, I try to think what to point out to them that they did that was brave, or that got help. "Sure, you had a scary nightmare, but you were able to run in and find mommy and daddy and get help, and if you ever have another one, what do you think you can do? That's right, you can run in and get us and we'll always be there!" And you can see their little minds go, "Hey I know what to do now if this scary thing happens again" or "Hey something bad happened and I did exactly what I was supposed to do when I got a teacher to help, I guess I do know how to handle this."
I'm not sure how I feel about a whole-life arc. That strikes me as a little odd and maybe dangerous ... what if your arc goes astray? Do you spent the next five years picking up the pieces or unable to move forward because the arc didn't work out? That worries me.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:08 AM on April 14, 2016 [27 favorites]
So I had kind-of a traumatic first birth, where the one thing I was terrified of (a C-section) turned out to be what happened at the last minute, and it was a difficult C-section because the baby was badly malpositioned. And being able to tell the story over and over and over again to people (family, friends) was really important in me being able to get over what was, in retrospect, kinda traumatic. And I've noticed that for women who were in a similar situation to mine, there are two kinds of stories -- "this horrible thing happened to me and I was subjected to a bunch of stuff I didn't want and I am angry and I lost out on the birth I wanted," (sometimes to the point of struggling to bond with the baby because the birth was "wrong"), and "this horrible thing happened to me, but luckily my medical team was able to intervene and give me a safe, healthy baby." And the stories we tell about ourselves, similarly -- I've heard a lot of women who had similar C-section situations talk about "I failed, I couldn't do it, I wasn't good enough" (and that narrative is way fucking reinforced in the "birth literature" about birth plans and that tell you all you have to do to get a baby going the right direction is shining a flashlight up your vagina I AM NOT KIDDING while doing certain yoga poses and if your baby didn't flip it's your fault.). What I told myself was, "This was the most terrifying thing I've ever done, but because I had to be strong for you [the baby], I did it." Which made me feel really strong and confident starting out parenting a newborn, that I'd already managed to navigate and handle pretty much the scariest thing that ever happened to me, solely because it was necessary for the baby, and it wasn't that bad. So I could handle explosive poops! (I apply this only to people who had the same sort of C-section I did for the same reasons, not for people who had much scarier or emergent experiences, which are way more traumatic and difficult.)
Anyway, my story (like a lot of people's) was "I was brave, I was strong, I had people who helped me and made everything okay." And from some other people in my cohort, I hear, "I was scared, I had no control, I had no choices." And these are both true stories (both true for both groups of us!), but I think the former method of telling it helped me get past the trauma relatively rapidly and feel confident about parenting; and definitely if I had had the second narrative, I would not have felt able to have another baby.
And actually telling the story over and over in the days right after birth really helped me organize and cement that narrative and my overwhelming feeling ever since has been gratitude that I had modern medicine on my side and confidence that I Did The Scary Thing even though I was scared. (And I think it only happened because I was so relieved I survived The Scary Thing that I was naturally in a good mood when I started telling it.)
Now when bad shit happens to me I try to actively think about how I want to frame that story to myself, because wow does it make a difference in being able to get past and get over it, vs. finding myself in depression and anxiety spirals. I mean it's not magic, you can't storytell yourself out of everything, but it's a tool that helps me.
And with my kids when something scary or upsetting happens to them, I try to think what to point out to them that they did that was brave, or that got help. "Sure, you had a scary nightmare, but you were able to run in and find mommy and daddy and get help, and if you ever have another one, what do you think you can do? That's right, you can run in and get us and we'll always be there!" And you can see their little minds go, "Hey I know what to do now if this scary thing happens again" or "Hey something bad happened and I did exactly what I was supposed to do when I got a teacher to help, I guess I do know how to handle this."
I'm not sure how I feel about a whole-life arc. That strikes me as a little odd and maybe dangerous ... what if your arc goes astray? Do you spent the next five years picking up the pieces or unable to move forward because the arc didn't work out? That worries me.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:08 AM on April 14, 2016 [27 favorites]
Life is a series of short stories, variously told in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd person viewpoint. Sometimes you may even get to be the main character in your own tale. Most of the time other person's stories are more interesting, amusing, scary, or real. Some times my own stories lack a coherent plot. Many of my stories are familiar, but I try not to plagiarize.
posted by BlueHorse at 7:36 AM on April 14, 2016
posted by BlueHorse at 7:36 AM on April 14, 2016
My attitude to this is pretty common, I think; I hate the idea that "everything happens for a reason" that stems from looking back at one's life story and seeing it lead to where you are now. Rather, chaos happens and we build stories around it. There's a coherent arc in my life in the same sense that there's a giant bunny in that cloud.
That being said, I quite like the sentiment that I came across recently: "Death is only the end if you think the story is just about you".
posted by metaBugs at 7:42 AM on April 14, 2016 [6 favorites]
That being said, I quite like the sentiment that I came across recently: "Death is only the end if you think the story is just about you".
posted by metaBugs at 7:42 AM on April 14, 2016 [6 favorites]
"On Margate Sands / I can connect / Nothing with nothing." — T.S. Eliot
"My relationship with death remains the same - I'm strongly against it ..." — Woody Allen.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:01 AM on April 14, 2016
"My relationship with death remains the same - I'm strongly against it ..." — Woody Allen.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:01 AM on April 14, 2016
My life is a series of supercuts.
posted by Kabanos at 8:18 AM on April 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Kabanos at 8:18 AM on April 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
I've come to accept that life is a narrative. It still bugs me a bit that I'm a minor character, but at least I occasionally get some witty dialogue with the main characters.
I'm still waiting to see if the end credits will have me by name, or just "unhelpful bureaucrat".
posted by happyroach at 8:26 AM on April 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm still waiting to see if the end credits will have me by name, or just "unhelpful bureaucrat".
posted by happyroach at 8:26 AM on April 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
"A map is not the territory it represents, but, if correct, it has a similar structure to the territory, which accounts for its usefulness."
—- Alfred Korzybski; cf Eric Temple Bell
"Everything simple is false. Everything complex is unusable."
-- Paul Valéry ; cf Bonini's paradox
posted by Herodios at 9:39 AM on April 14, 2016 [9 favorites]
—- Alfred Korzybski; cf Eric Temple Bell
"Everything simple is false. Everything complex is unusable."
-- Paul Valéry ; cf Bonini's paradox
posted by Herodios at 9:39 AM on April 14, 2016 [9 favorites]
But, he continues, “I’m not like Mr. Agency, agency at all costs. I don’t believe that. If you have stage 4 cancer, agency may be good for you, but is it a rational choice? And I do think [redemption] is good in the long term, but in the throes of really struggling with illness, I don’t know that it actually helps people.”
I read a book last year that was all about how knowing that you'll have some control over how you die is a huge deal for quality of life for people with terminal illnesses.
posted by aniola at 10:25 AM on April 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
I read a book last year that was all about how knowing that you'll have some control over how you die is a huge deal for quality of life for people with terminal illnesses.
posted by aniola at 10:25 AM on April 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
I don't have a narrative. I have anecdotes. Lots and lots of anecdotes. That's probably from growing up when all TV was episodic, not story-arc-based (and as a kid when all the cartoons were 7 minutes or shorter).
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:54 AM on April 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:54 AM on April 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
But life rarely follows the logical progression that most stories—good stories—do, where the clues come together, guns left on mantles go off at the appropriate moments, the climax comes in the third act.
That gets pretty circular. Not all good stories are formulaic, and most formulaic stories aren't very good. I prefer fictional narratives that don't follow the standard story formula, which is maybe why
I have always gotten caught short in those situations where you're supposed to come up with a narrative for your life story. I really don't have one. I have plenty of mini-stories, some with morals or at least satisfying conclusions, but most just anecdotes that I never get to tell because they're just free floating, general purpose non sequiturs.
But I have a persistent thing where even people I know fairly well think weird and untrue things about me sometimes. Not just things like ideologies and character traits, either, but concrete facts they think they know about me that are not true. And I suspect maybe those grow out of those little anecdote stubs, like maybe people tack on endings and contexts or something so they make sense.
So maybe that's just my narrative: I am a hapless victim of other people's narratives.
posted by ernielundquist at 12:42 PM on April 14, 2016
That gets pretty circular. Not all good stories are formulaic, and most formulaic stories aren't very good. I prefer fictional narratives that don't follow the standard story formula, which is maybe why
I have always gotten caught short in those situations where you're supposed to come up with a narrative for your life story. I really don't have one. I have plenty of mini-stories, some with morals or at least satisfying conclusions, but most just anecdotes that I never get to tell because they're just free floating, general purpose non sequiturs.
But I have a persistent thing where even people I know fairly well think weird and untrue things about me sometimes. Not just things like ideologies and character traits, either, but concrete facts they think they know about me that are not true. And I suspect maybe those grow out of those little anecdote stubs, like maybe people tack on endings and contexts or something so they make sense.
So maybe that's just my narrative: I am a hapless victim of other people's narratives.
posted by ernielundquist at 12:42 PM on April 14, 2016
My life is a series of supercuts.
my life is a series of uppercuts
posted by murphy slaw at 1:16 PM on April 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
my life is a series of uppercuts
posted by murphy slaw at 1:16 PM on April 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm just waiting for the [work happened here] montage to kick in.
Wait my life IS the montage? Well shit. Better stop dicking around on the internet then.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 7:19 PM on April 14, 2016
Wait my life IS the montage? Well shit. Better stop dicking around on the internet then.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 7:19 PM on April 14, 2016
I can't find it now, but one thing that stuck from the Emotional Labor thread was that abusers NEVER want anyone to see a narrative, a pattern, a story arc. Because then each disappointment, each lie, each aggression stands alone and ONLY A CRAZY PERSON would "blow up" and "make such a big deal" out of just this ONE little thing.
Individual words make up a story.
posted by 2soxy4mypuppet at 9:46 PM on April 14, 2016 [8 favorites]
Individual words make up a story.
posted by 2soxy4mypuppet at 9:46 PM on April 14, 2016 [8 favorites]
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