"Motor Doping"
April 19, 2016 6:22 AM Subscribe
Tiny Motor Powers a New Threat to Cycling Races (NYTimes) "A grueling cycling race is somewhat less grueling if your bike is a motorcycle."
This Business Insider article has videos and demonstrations of the motors. It also includes a sentence that puts doping into some context: "Greg LeMond, the only American to win the Tour de France, showing how one version of a bike motor works." (Previously)
This Business Insider article has videos and demonstrations of the motors. It also includes a sentence that puts doping into some context: "Greg LeMond, the only American to win the Tour de France, showing how one version of a bike motor works." (Previously)
Yeah, that sentence made my jaw literally drop. Then a huge smile lit up my face.
posted by OmieWise at 6:28 AM on April 19, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by OmieWise at 6:28 AM on April 19, 2016 [12 favorites]
It bums me out that our leading cyclists turned out to be such anticompetitive shits. But that sentence is a nice little fuck you to Lance and Floyd.
posted by Existential Dread at 6:44 AM on April 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Existential Dread at 6:44 AM on April 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
I remember the earlier post and was wondering how people could possibly expect to get away with this. You won't get caught every time, but if they find a motor on your bike that's pretty much incontrovertible evidence of cheating. What possible excuse could you have? "I was on the wrong bike?" Like a race car driver might get in the wrong car by mistake? Then I read the Business Insider article, and sure enough: Femke Van den Driessche: "It wasn't my bike — it was that of a friend and was identical to mine."
posted by TedW at 6:46 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by TedW at 6:46 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Note: apparently the FLIR image that has been floating around is not an actual rider in a race but a test somebody did (at least according to The Inner Ring).
This stuff has been going around as rumors and accusations since Cancellera last won Paris-Roubaix years ago and AFAIK only one cyclist (in the women's tour) has been caught red handed. There is a lot of paranoia about this stuff in what is already a paradise sport for this kind of bullshit and I don't really think the UCI has the manpower or organizational cachet at the moment to start disassembling all bikes in competition (and I mean frankly that just sounds crazy) so I'm not sure what the solution is. Not to mention that these bicycles are using electronic shifting mechanisms so you have to distinguish the heat/mechanism of that from the banned motor.
Ugh.
posted by selfnoise at 6:49 AM on April 19, 2016
This stuff has been going around as rumors and accusations since Cancellera last won Paris-Roubaix years ago and AFAIK only one cyclist (in the women's tour) has been caught red handed. There is a lot of paranoia about this stuff in what is already a paradise sport for this kind of bullshit and I don't really think the UCI has the manpower or organizational cachet at the moment to start disassembling all bikes in competition (and I mean frankly that just sounds crazy) so I'm not sure what the solution is. Not to mention that these bicycles are using electronic shifting mechanisms so you have to distinguish the heat/mechanism of that from the banned motor.
Ugh.
posted by selfnoise at 6:49 AM on April 19, 2016
"It bums me out that our leading cyclists turned out to be such anticompetitive shits"
What bums me out more is that Lance got so many other people tied up in it. The Dave Zabriskie story is heartbreaking.
posted by kevinbelt at 6:51 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
What bums me out more is that Lance got so many other people tied up in it. The Dave Zabriskie story is heartbreaking.
posted by kevinbelt at 6:51 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Today I learned that cyclo-cross is a thing. An amazing thing.
posted by chavenet at 6:58 AM on April 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by chavenet at 6:58 AM on April 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
I have to admit that part of me kind of enjoys the fact that Americans are something of a non-factor in the World Tour these days. I mean, there are some good ones but the Nike/ESPN complex isn't trying to make anyone happen and that feels nice.
I have a fantasy that if an American ever becomes a superstar again it will be as a classics racer so that Americans can get over their TdF fixation. Especially since the TdF seems like it's becoming a dull procession managed by rich teams.
Today I learned that cyclo-cross is a thing. An amazing thing.
Yes! Cyclo-cross is real fucking cool. Also, the founder of this website dabbles in it IIRC.
posted by selfnoise at 7:01 AM on April 19, 2016
I have a fantasy that if an American ever becomes a superstar again it will be as a classics racer so that Americans can get over their TdF fixation. Especially since the TdF seems like it's becoming a dull procession managed by rich teams.
Today I learned that cyclo-cross is a thing. An amazing thing.
Yes! Cyclo-cross is real fucking cool. Also, the founder of this website dabbles in it IIRC.
posted by selfnoise at 7:01 AM on April 19, 2016
At this point, a body who wins a major race has started the countdown till they get caught cheating in some way.i can't imagine a world where the top riders aren't cheating.
Because the ones who are on the verge of being dropped from the peloton certainly are gonna. And when TH guys coming up behind you are "enhanced"…
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 7:03 AM on April 19, 2016
Because the ones who are on the verge of being dropped from the peloton certainly are gonna. And when TH guys coming up behind you are "enhanced"…
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 7:03 AM on April 19, 2016
Not a racer so are these things incredibly expensive? A full weight electric bike or one of those loud two stroke motors but a small unobtrusive thing to give a kick once in a while on a long ride or say for a few blocks when you need to get to a meeting without the sweat happening. Just seems handy for those times where a little push will help keep moving.
posted by sammyo at 7:07 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by sammyo at 7:07 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
As an insider, a lot of the claims that motor use is all over the place seems pretty overblown. So-called exposes always seem slim on the details, and very clickbaity.
I'm sure they're being used somewhere - obviously the cyclocross rider was caught with a bike with a motor - but the "evidence" in high-level races really isn't evidence. It's insinuation.
posted by entropone at 7:08 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm sure they're being used somewhere - obviously the cyclocross rider was caught with a bike with a motor - but the "evidence" in high-level races really isn't evidence. It's insinuation.
posted by entropone at 7:08 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Not to mention that these bicycles are using electronic shifting mechanisms so you have to distinguish the heat/mechanism of that from the banned motor.
The motors for shifting are tiny blobs on top of the derailleurs and external to the frame, and they operate for such short periods of time they'll produce negligible heat. The wiring and internal battery (on the Shimano and Campag systems) will add confusion though.
posted by grahamparks at 7:08 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
The motors for shifting are tiny blobs on top of the derailleurs and external to the frame, and they operate for such short periods of time they'll produce negligible heat. The wiring and internal battery (on the Shimano and Campag systems) will add confusion though.
posted by grahamparks at 7:08 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Here is a picture of the type of technology used (from this Velomotion article in German).
posted by fairmettle at 7:09 AM on April 19, 2016
posted by fairmettle at 7:09 AM on April 19, 2016
It's not going to be the riders winning stages that will be using them. It's going to be rider who won today's stage that used it yesterday. A sprinter that can use a motor to finish a big mountain stage before the time cutoff can have fresh legs for the next day's sprint stage.
posted by spikeleemajortomdickandharryconnickjrmints at 7:12 AM on April 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by spikeleemajortomdickandharryconnickjrmints at 7:12 AM on April 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
Or a racer could use it for the first part of a stage, switch bikes due to a "mechanical issue", then be fresher for the finish. This is something Contador was accused of during last year's Giro. To be fair, everyone has been accused of everything at this point.
(that said to be pedantic, elite sprinters rarely miss cutoffs in big stage races nowadays in part because the organizers would, erm, rather they didn't :) )
This is the problem; there's a lot of smoke with little fire, and to "settle" the issue the UCI or whatever authority would have to essentially disassemble every bicycle after every stage. That's obviously not going to happen.
posted by selfnoise at 7:15 AM on April 19, 2016
(that said to be pedantic, elite sprinters rarely miss cutoffs in big stage races nowadays in part because the organizers would, erm, rather they didn't :) )
This is the problem; there's a lot of smoke with little fire, and to "settle" the issue the UCI or whatever authority would have to essentially disassemble every bicycle after every stage. That's obviously not going to happen.
posted by selfnoise at 7:15 AM on April 19, 2016
selfnoise: " the UCI or whatever authority would have to essentially disassemble every bicycle after every stage"
Wouldn't a simple airport x-ray/scanner do the trick?
posted by chavenet at 7:32 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Wouldn't a simple airport x-ray/scanner do the trick?
posted by chavenet at 7:32 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Congratulations! You have discovered a revolutionary technology that unobtrusively and noticeably improves the efficiency and speed of a normal bicycle. Many before you have tried and failed to accomplish this, but you have managed to succeed without encountering any of the pitfalls of your predecessors.
You can:
posted by schmod at 7:33 AM on April 19, 2016 [15 favorites]
You can:
- Market and sell this technology, making millions whilst improving public health and reducing fossil fuel consumption.
- Hide the technology. Attempt to use it to cheat to win a bicycle race without getting caught, while hoping that none of your competitors are doing the same thing.
posted by schmod at 7:33 AM on April 19, 2016 [15 favorites]
Everything I know about power supplies and motors is telling me that anything you can hide inside a bicycle frame is not going to be able to put out a meaningful amount of power, almost certainly not enough to be worth the extra weight. Am I wrong?
posted by Mitrovarr at 7:38 AM on April 19, 2016
posted by Mitrovarr at 7:38 AM on April 19, 2016
WHY DID NOBODY CHOOSE OPTION 1? WHAT IS WRONG WITH THE PEOPLE WHO COMPETE IN THIS SPORT?
There's no market for a bike that has a 10 to 20 minute battery life that lacks the power to go up a hill. And there are plenty of actual useful electric bikes but they're still fairly expensive. But lots of people chose option one.
Also it's questionable whether these hidden motors are an advantage on the balance. You get an extra 200-ish watts for several minutes, which can definitely make the difference between winning or losing a sprint. On the other hand you have to drag along an entire 200-500 grams for the entire race which is a pretty big deal when pro racers are looking to shave of 10's of grams with fancy equipment.
posted by GuyZero at 7:39 AM on April 19, 2016
There's no market for a bike that has a 10 to 20 minute battery life that lacks the power to go up a hill. And there are plenty of actual useful electric bikes but they're still fairly expensive. But lots of people chose option one.
Also it's questionable whether these hidden motors are an advantage on the balance. You get an extra 200-ish watts for several minutes, which can definitely make the difference between winning or losing a sprint. On the other hand you have to drag along an entire 200-500 grams for the entire race which is a pretty big deal when pro racers are looking to shave of 10's of grams with fancy equipment.
posted by GuyZero at 7:39 AM on April 19, 2016
Everything I know about power supplies and motors is telling me that anything you can hide inside a bicycle frame is not going to be able to put out a meaningful amount of power, almost certainly not enough to be worth the extra weight. Am I wrong?
I have read elsewhere that these things could give up to 200W of power, which is a fair amount, but for a short time. I don't know whether that's worth the weight tradeoff.
posted by GuyZero at 7:40 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I have read elsewhere that these things could give up to 200W of power, which is a fair amount, but for a short time. I don't know whether that's worth the weight tradeoff.
posted by GuyZero at 7:40 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Would it significantly impact the integrity of bikes to require a pinhole on both sides of the frame to make it possible to thread in those fiber optic cameras without taking out the gear cassette assembly deal? I think it'd have to be both sides so you could make sure they didn't just have a false inside layer for the camera and it also wouldn't help for finding motors in the rear hub, but it doesn't seem like it would be that hard if those EMF detecting iPads aren't sufficient.
Side note, here's a video from the dcrainmaker guy showing the motor sensing iPads in use. The business insider article only had a photo unless I missed something.
posted by mattamatic at 7:42 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Side note, here's a video from the dcrainmaker guy showing the motor sensing iPads in use. The business insider article only had a photo unless I missed something.
posted by mattamatic at 7:42 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Everything I know about power supplies and motors is telling me that anything you can hide inside a bicycle frame is not going to be able to put out a meaningful amount of power, almost certainly not enough to be worth the extra weight. Am I wrong?
These aren't designed to replace the rider. They're designed to assist the rider. A few extra watts at the right time is all they're looking for.
posted by Etrigan at 7:43 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
These aren't designed to replace the rider. They're designed to assist the rider. A few extra watts at the right time is all they're looking for.
posted by Etrigan at 7:43 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also it's questionable whether these hidden motors are an advantage on the balance. You get an extra 200-ish watts for several minutes, which can definitely make the difference between winning or losing a sprint. On the other hand you have to drag along an entire 200-500 grams for the entire race which is a pretty big deal when pro racers are looking to shave of 10's of grams with fancy equipment.
Not exactly. An extra 200-ish watts won't make the difference between winning or losing a sprint, since these devices excel at steady state power at a single cadence, and that's not what sprints are like. Based on how these devices work, they seem like they would completely interfere with how you need to pedal in order to sprint.
And, pro racers don't really look to shave off grams anymore. In fact, the minimum bike weight is higher than the weight of a lot of bikes, so often teams add small weights to bikes in order to meet the minimum - often with weights in the seattube and bells and whistles like power meters (which are heavier than standard cranks).
posted by entropone at 7:48 AM on April 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
Not exactly. An extra 200-ish watts won't make the difference between winning or losing a sprint, since these devices excel at steady state power at a single cadence, and that's not what sprints are like. Based on how these devices work, they seem like they would completely interfere with how you need to pedal in order to sprint.
And, pro racers don't really look to shave off grams anymore. In fact, the minimum bike weight is higher than the weight of a lot of bikes, so often teams add small weights to bikes in order to meet the minimum - often with weights in the seattube and bells and whistles like power meters (which are heavier than standard cranks).
posted by entropone at 7:48 AM on April 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
Like GuyZero I'm also curious about the power / weight tradeoff here. I'm pretty sure a lithium battery-powered motor is going to more than carry its weight in terms of letting the rider rest up a bit on a long ride. But how much so? It's not just that the cheating devices have to be light enough to be efficient; they also have to be silent and hidden.
Professional cycling is completely compromised as a sport. Years of blood doping have shredded any credibility, it's impossible to believe that the riders aren't cheating every possible way they can. The corruption is as bad as FIFA, albeit on a different axis.
posted by Nelson at 8:01 AM on April 19, 2016
Professional cycling is completely compromised as a sport. Years of blood doping have shredded any credibility, it's impossible to believe that the riders aren't cheating every possible way they can. The corruption is as bad as FIFA, albeit on a different axis.
posted by Nelson at 8:01 AM on April 19, 2016
some cunning cyclists may be turning the sport into Nascar on two wheels by surreptitiously giving their bikes a motorized boost.
Um, NYT, there are ACTUAL motorcycle racing series that you could have used instead of this clumsy metaphor.
posted by mollymayhem at 8:02 AM on April 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
Um, NYT, there are ACTUAL motorcycle racing series that you could have used instead of this clumsy metaphor.
posted by mollymayhem at 8:02 AM on April 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm hoping that Ducati will put together a team for the Tour de France. The peloton is quite used to racing alongside motorcycles although there was a tragic death just a few weeks back.
posted by grounded at 8:04 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by grounded at 8:04 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Also, because Greg Lemond is awesome, here's a video of him trying his hand at fencing with an Olympic champion épéeist.
posted by grounded at 8:08 AM on April 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by grounded at 8:08 AM on April 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
Femke Van den Driessche: "It wasn't my bike — it was that of a friend and was identical to mine."
Last year I bought a new bike and while setting it up I was not happy with my seat height. It seemed a little low so I raised it 2mm and I was finally happy with it. I used to do amateur races and still ride a fair bit and if a professional racer claims that they can't tell they're bike from another within seconds I call bullshit. If your you're going to lie at least make it semi-plausible to people who know the tiniest bit about the sport.
posted by Confess, Fletch at 8:16 AM on April 19, 2016 [6 favorites]
Last year I bought a new bike and while setting it up I was not happy with my seat height. It seemed a little low so I raised it 2mm and I was finally happy with it. I used to do amateur races and still ride a fair bit and if a professional racer claims that they can't tell they're bike from another within seconds I call bullshit. If your you're going to lie at least make it semi-plausible to people who know the tiniest bit about the sport.
posted by Confess, Fletch at 8:16 AM on April 19, 2016 [6 favorites]
Her friend, Schmemke Van den Schmiessche, happens to be exactly the same height. Totally plausible.
posted by Etrigan at 8:20 AM on April 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 8:20 AM on April 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
If I am remembering the story correctly, the bike was there as a spare. I think it's plausible that a woman cyclocross racer needs to borrow a bike from a friend as a racing spare: women cyclists make essentially no money and the teams are not heavily funded either.
I have no dog in that hunt otherwise, but I don't think it's crazy. It probably IS crazy that her friend just happened to have some kind of weird motor in her bike.
posted by selfnoise at 8:22 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I have no dog in that hunt otherwise, but I don't think it's crazy. It probably IS crazy that her friend just happened to have some kind of weird motor in her bike.
posted by selfnoise at 8:22 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I agree that it's plausible she borrowed a friend's bike, still doesn't make it ok to ride in competition.
posted by djseafood at 8:41 AM on April 19, 2016
posted by djseafood at 8:41 AM on April 19, 2016
Would it significantly impact the integrity of bikes to require a pinhole on both sides of the frame to make it possible to thread in those fiber optic cameras without taking out the gear cassette assembly deal?
You wouldn't even need to do that- just take out the seat post and run a fibre optic camera or even a little light on a stick down the seat tube. If you run into something before you hit bottom bracket, you'll probably want to take a closer look. For bikes with integrated seat posts, then you can take the crankset off and look inside the bottom bracket, something that will take a pro mechanic all of five minutes.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:47 AM on April 19, 2016
You wouldn't even need to do that- just take out the seat post and run a fibre optic camera or even a little light on a stick down the seat tube. If you run into something before you hit bottom bracket, you'll probably want to take a closer look. For bikes with integrated seat posts, then you can take the crankset off and look inside the bottom bracket, something that will take a pro mechanic all of five minutes.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:47 AM on April 19, 2016
It's the minimum weight rule that makes this somewhat plausible for me. If you can replace ballast with batteries, then the few hundred watt hours you could stuff into the frame might be worth lugging around, although a motor that adds no drag while it's switched off is a hard trick to pull off.
However, the diagrams I've seen showing a motor built into the rim of the bike seem hard to believe; for weight, torque, and efficiency reasons, that's one of the holy grails of ebike design, and anyone who got it to work could make more money selling them to endless-sphere types than keeping them secret.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 8:53 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
However, the diagrams I've seen showing a motor built into the rim of the bike seem hard to believe; for weight, torque, and efficiency reasons, that's one of the holy grails of ebike design, and anyone who got it to work could make more money selling them to endless-sphere types than keeping them secret.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 8:53 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
The corruption is as bad as FIFA, albeit on a different axis axle.
posted by sneebler at 8:57 AM on April 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by sneebler at 8:57 AM on April 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
Three things:
1)Cyclo-cross is cool, and unknown to me - thanks for that.
2)WHY DID NOBODY CHOOSE OPTION 1?
Let me introduce to you the Rubbee.
3)'Motor Doping' is an awesome name for a band, even if only in my mind.
posted by eclectist at 9:08 AM on April 19, 2016
1)Cyclo-cross is cool, and unknown to me - thanks for that.
2)WHY DID NOBODY CHOOSE OPTION 1?
Let me introduce to you the Rubbee.
3)'Motor Doping' is an awesome name for a band, even if only in my mind.
posted by eclectist at 9:08 AM on April 19, 2016
Bah humbug. Pro racing is lame, let's hear it for amateur races whether it's crits, cross or the big thing in these parts - gravel races. The races are almost all free and volunteer run. One of the big ones is The Almanzo 100 which can give you an idea of how big these things are.
I know this is slightly off-topic, but when discussion turns to scandals in pro racing it's god to remember all the citizen racers out there doing it for the lolz.
posted by misterpatrick at 9:15 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I know this is slightly off-topic, but when discussion turns to scandals in pro racing it's god to remember all the citizen racers out there doing it for the lolz.
posted by misterpatrick at 9:15 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
If you're wondering if the small amount of energy available is worth it, remember that human power output is incredibly non-linear with cost when up near our aerobic thresholds.
That is, if you can output 200 W continuously for 60 minutes (your functional aerobic threshold), you can probably only output 250 W for maybe 10 minutes and 300 W for perhaps a few. So if you're competing with a group and you're all putting out 210 W, trying to drop the stragglers, adding even a tiny bit of "free" external power gives you a massive advantage because you can avoid going anaerobic for longer. They're burning off precious glucose/glycogen and you're merely working hard and not going into debt.
This is something that most distance cyclists just sort of instinctively figure out: shaving just a handful of watts of drag can literally double the amount of time you can spend out in the wind.
posted by introp at 9:26 AM on April 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
That is, if you can output 200 W continuously for 60 minutes (your functional aerobic threshold), you can probably only output 250 W for maybe 10 minutes and 300 W for perhaps a few. So if you're competing with a group and you're all putting out 210 W, trying to drop the stragglers, adding even a tiny bit of "free" external power gives you a massive advantage because you can avoid going anaerobic for longer. They're burning off precious glucose/glycogen and you're merely working hard and not going into debt.
This is something that most distance cyclists just sort of instinctively figure out: shaving just a handful of watts of drag can literally double the amount of time you can spend out in the wind.
posted by introp at 9:26 AM on April 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
Is it dumb to ask why competitions don't provide the bikes so that every cyclist has the exact same one? Who cares, I'm gonna ask anyway. It would cut off at least one avenue for cheating.
posted by emjaybee at 9:32 AM on April 19, 2016
posted by emjaybee at 9:32 AM on April 19, 2016
Is it dumb to ask why competitions don't provide the bikes so that every cyclist has the exact same one? Who cares, I'm gonna ask anyway. It would cut off at least one avenue for cheating.
A jillion reasons that would be impossible, starting with the fact that it would be absurdly cost prohibitive for competitions, and ridiculously wasteful to have every race buy bikes for athletes.
Bikes come in different sizes, riders have different preferences, sizes, setup, and gear preferences are necessary to avoid injuries in events that can last up to 7 hours in one day or day after day for up to 3 weeks. Plus, because athletes don't just need gear during races, so they have bikes that are provided by team sponsors, who pay to have athletes ride their bikes.
posted by entropone at 9:36 AM on April 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
A jillion reasons that would be impossible, starting with the fact that it would be absurdly cost prohibitive for competitions, and ridiculously wasteful to have every race buy bikes for athletes.
Bikes come in different sizes, riders have different preferences, sizes, setup, and gear preferences are necessary to avoid injuries in events that can last up to 7 hours in one day or day after day for up to 3 weeks. Plus, because athletes don't just need gear during races, so they have bikes that are provided by team sponsors, who pay to have athletes ride their bikes.
posted by entropone at 9:36 AM on April 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
Is it dumb to ask why competitions don't provide the bikes so that every cyclist has the exact same one? Who cares, I'm gonna ask anyway. It would cut off at least one avenue for cheating.
A jillion reasons that would be impossible, starting with the fact that it would be absurdly cost prohibitive for competitions, and ridiculously wasteful to have every race buy bikes for athletes.
Could they get the bikes ahead of time, then inspect and embargo them until race time? Sure, it would cost more, but surely the teams and their sponsors would rather have an honest race than... yeah, okay, now I see why not.
posted by Etrigan at 9:41 AM on April 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
A jillion reasons that would be impossible, starting with the fact that it would be absurdly cost prohibitive for competitions, and ridiculously wasteful to have every race buy bikes for athletes.
Could they get the bikes ahead of time, then inspect and embargo them until race time? Sure, it would cost more, but surely the teams and their sponsors would rather have an honest race than... yeah, okay, now I see why not.
posted by Etrigan at 9:41 AM on April 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
Is it dumb to ask why competitions don't provide the bikes so that every cyclist has the exact same one? Who cares, I'm gonna ask anyway. It would cut off at least one avenue for cheating.
Like everyone else said, that seems about as likely as publicly funded elections. Most of the industry subsists on the behind the scenescheating jockeying.
posted by Dr. Send at 9:44 AM on April 19, 2016
Like everyone else said, that seems about as likely as publicly funded elections. Most of the industry subsists on the behind the scenes
posted by Dr. Send at 9:44 AM on April 19, 2016
The simplest reason is simply that most pro teams are at least partially sponsored by a bicycle maker and that money can't go away.
But the thing you really have to understand is that pro cycling is not like the NFL. There is not a strong federal authority that hoovers up a ton of money and uses it to create authority. There is the UCI but it is not funded to that extent and the races are actually organized by individual committees or by separate (and feuding) organizations like the ASO. And then there are separate agencies like the anti-doping WADA, as well as team collectives like the Velon Group.
It's basically a big chaotic jumble that, improbably, shambles onward forever. There have been complaints about this from organizations like Velon or eccentrics like Oleg Tinkoff (who is taking his ball and going home now) but there isn't the political will or money or influence to create a stronger federation.
posted by selfnoise at 10:10 AM on April 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
But the thing you really have to understand is that pro cycling is not like the NFL. There is not a strong federal authority that hoovers up a ton of money and uses it to create authority. There is the UCI but it is not funded to that extent and the races are actually organized by individual committees or by separate (and feuding) organizations like the ASO. And then there are separate agencies like the anti-doping WADA, as well as team collectives like the Velon Group.
It's basically a big chaotic jumble that, improbably, shambles onward forever. There have been complaints about this from organizations like Velon or eccentrics like Oleg Tinkoff (who is taking his ball and going home now) but there isn't the political will or money or influence to create a stronger federation.
posted by selfnoise at 10:10 AM on April 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
The UCI bicycle weight limit is 6.8kg. Bike manufacturers can easily hit 5.5kg nowadays. That leaves 1.3kg for motor and batteries with no weight penalty.
Some typical numbers for a potential tour winner: 250W average power over 7 hours at 65kg. That's a specific energy of 27 watt hours per kilogram. According to Wikipedia, specific energy for Li-ion is a big range of 100-265 Wh/kg. At worst, a motor assist is marginally worthwhile.
All sports are rife with performance enhancing drugs. As comical as pro cycling is, no other sport comes close to the level of effort focused on detecting PED use.
posted by Chuckles at 10:22 AM on April 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
Some typical numbers for a potential tour winner: 250W average power over 7 hours at 65kg. That's a specific energy of 27 watt hours per kilogram. According to Wikipedia, specific energy for Li-ion is a big range of 100-265 Wh/kg. At worst, a motor assist is marginally worthwhile.
All sports are rife with performance enhancing drugs. As comical as pro cycling is, no other sport comes close to the level of effort focused on detecting PED use.
posted by Chuckles at 10:22 AM on April 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
In terms of comprehending why a momentary, brief energy boost might be worth cheating: in the very last part of last Sunday's Amstel Gold Race, Enrico Gasparotto broke away from the leading group with a brief burst of energy, followed only by Michael Valgren. Despite the chasing group staying in visual contact for the remainder of the race, nobody could bridge up and Gasparatto held on to win. The gap looked very small from the television perspective, but if you've been going up and down Dutch hills for six hours, a very small gap can be everything.
posted by selfnoise at 10:29 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by selfnoise at 10:29 AM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, that 265 wh/kg is for pouches. By the time you package them up, you're a good bit under 200wh/kg. Do racers brake on downhills? If so, regen would be useful.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 10:33 AM on April 19, 2016
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 10:33 AM on April 19, 2016
Everything I know about power supplies and motors is telling me that anything you can hide inside a bicycle frame is not going to be able to put out a meaningful amount of power, almost certainly not enough to be worth the extra weight.
Surely it's only a matter of time until somebody who's desperately keen to win (as in, wanting victory literally more than life itself) uses a uranium power source in the bike frame (unshielded, of course) to power their hidden motor.
posted by acb at 10:42 AM on April 19, 2016
Surely it's only a matter of time until somebody who's desperately keen to win (as in, wanting victory literally more than life itself) uses a uranium power source in the bike frame (unshielded, of course) to power their hidden motor.
posted by acb at 10:42 AM on April 19, 2016
Is it dumb to ask why competitions don't provide the bikes so that every cyclist has the exact same one?
This is how it used to be done- Henri Desgrange (the first organizer of the Tour de France) was adamant that cyclists should all use the same bicycle and build (relative to their sizes), and the Tour would provide cyclists (initially) and teams (later) with bikes that they would then have their own mechanics work on. This was meant to eliminate the "mechanical advantage" and make the competition primarily about athletic ability. Of course, as cycling technology advanced with the development of things like effective derailleur shifters, L'Auto (the original sponsor of the Tour) became more and more conservative, and riders began to demand the right to use technology that was freely available to the public. Furthermore, even though the bikes were supposed to be the same, somehow foreign riders would often end up getting the busted ones. Eventually, the organizers relented, and the age of the factory team was launched. Since then, bicycle and component manufacturers have been important sponsors of cycling teams, and a major source of cash for professional cycling. Of the 22 teams in last years' Tour, five had a frame manufacturer as a major sponsor, and the rest all had exclusive deals with frame and component manufacturers. At this point, to change this aspect of the sport would be to transform it entirely, and still wouldn't eliminate the possibility of either mechanical or pharmaceutical doping.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 10:53 AM on April 19, 2016 [8 favorites]
This is how it used to be done- Henri Desgrange (the first organizer of the Tour de France) was adamant that cyclists should all use the same bicycle and build (relative to their sizes), and the Tour would provide cyclists (initially) and teams (later) with bikes that they would then have their own mechanics work on. This was meant to eliminate the "mechanical advantage" and make the competition primarily about athletic ability. Of course, as cycling technology advanced with the development of things like effective derailleur shifters, L'Auto (the original sponsor of the Tour) became more and more conservative, and riders began to demand the right to use technology that was freely available to the public. Furthermore, even though the bikes were supposed to be the same, somehow foreign riders would often end up getting the busted ones. Eventually, the organizers relented, and the age of the factory team was launched. Since then, bicycle and component manufacturers have been important sponsors of cycling teams, and a major source of cash for professional cycling. Of the 22 teams in last years' Tour, five had a frame manufacturer as a major sponsor, and the rest all had exclusive deals with frame and component manufacturers. At this point, to change this aspect of the sport would be to transform it entirely, and still wouldn't eliminate the possibility of either mechanical or pharmaceutical doping.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 10:53 AM on April 19, 2016 [8 favorites]
Surely it's only a matter of time until somebody who's desperately keen to win (as in, wanting victory literally more than life itself) uses a uranium power source in the bike frame (unshielded, of course) to power their hidden motor.
I think people might notice the steam coming out of the frame.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 10:55 AM on April 19, 2016
I think people might notice the steam coming out of the frame.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 10:55 AM on April 19, 2016
Eh. Especially for the mechanical side of things (i.e., the bikes), I feel like this is a problem with a solution that's existed for a long time. Namely, quarantine. In lots of racing series, the top three (or four) finishers roll off the course and straight into a shop where the machines are disassembled and inspected by the sanctioning body. Bicycles are no more "custom" than e.g. a MotoGP bike. Is there a reason this wouldn't be possible for humancycles too?
posted by TheNewWazoo at 11:07 AM on April 19, 2016
posted by TheNewWazoo at 11:07 AM on April 19, 2016
TedW: "I remember the earlier post and was wondering how people could possibly expect to get away with this. You won't get caught every time, but if they find a motor on your bike that's pretty much incontrovertible evidence of cheating. What possible excuse could you have?"
If you can't manage the win without the assist than any penalty to some people is ineffective.
mollymayhem: "Um, NYT, there are ACTUAL motorcycle racing series that you could have used instead of this clumsy metaphor."
Probably went with NASCAR because of its well known history of cheating at all/top levels.
posted by Mitheral at 11:09 AM on April 19, 2016
If you can't manage the win without the assist than any penalty to some people is ineffective.
mollymayhem: "Um, NYT, there are ACTUAL motorcycle racing series that you could have used instead of this clumsy metaphor."
Probably went with NASCAR because of its well known history of cheating at all/top levels.
posted by Mitheral at 11:09 AM on April 19, 2016
regen would be useful.
I don't know for sure, but I think the actual braking is too short and sharp to be useful for regen--how is that going in F1, don't they do some of that now? But there is the drafting thing too.. The trailing rider is in some sense faster than the leading rider on a downhill, you could use that energy difference to recharge.
That would be for some kind of legit electronic assisted human effort type thing though. As a cheat, it is much easier to put a battery in a water bottle, or just change the bike for a fresh charge.
posted by Chuckles at 11:19 AM on April 19, 2016
I don't know for sure, but I think the actual braking is too short and sharp to be useful for regen--how is that going in F1, don't they do some of that now? But there is the drafting thing too.. The trailing rider is in some sense faster than the leading rider on a downhill, you could use that energy difference to recharge.
That would be for some kind of legit electronic assisted human effort type thing though. As a cheat, it is much easier to put a battery in a water bottle, or just change the bike for a fresh charge.
posted by Chuckles at 11:19 AM on April 19, 2016
Eh. Especially for the mechanical side of things (i.e., the bikes), I feel like this is a problem with a solution that's existed for a long time. Namely, quarantine. In lots of racing series, the top three (or four) finishers roll off the course and straight into a shop where the machines are disassembled and inspected by the sanctioning body. Bicycles are no more "custom" than e.g. a MotoGP bike. Is there a reason this wouldn't be possible for humancycles too?
Well, yes. The fact that bike races take place over hundreds of miles of roads that are closed to traffic but otherwise still very much open to the world, and often not within view of cameras and officials. In a hard race, riders can be spread over a road for miles and miles.
Bikes are inspected at the start of a race, and they can probably be quarantined at the end of the race. But in between there are 7 hours of chaos on roads for all manner of chicanery to take place - if indeed this happens at high-level races (I am very skeptical).
posted by entropone at 11:40 AM on April 19, 2016
Well, yes. The fact that bike races take place over hundreds of miles of roads that are closed to traffic but otherwise still very much open to the world, and often not within view of cameras and officials. In a hard race, riders can be spread over a road for miles and miles.
Bikes are inspected at the start of a race, and they can probably be quarantined at the end of the race. But in between there are 7 hours of chaos on roads for all manner of chicanery to take place - if indeed this happens at high-level races (I am very skeptical).
posted by entropone at 11:40 AM on April 19, 2016
But in between there are 7 hours of chaos on roads for all manner of chicanery to take place - if indeed this happens at high-level races (I am very skeptical).
Skepticism is good, but I think the evidence is mounting.
posted by Chuckles at 12:19 PM on April 19, 2016
Skepticism is good, but I think the evidence is mounting.
posted by Chuckles at 12:19 PM on April 19, 2016
Surely it's only a matter of time until somebody who's desperately keen to win (as in, wanting victory literally more than life itself) uses a uranium power source in the bike frame (unshielded, of course) to power their hidden motor.
What if it already happened and that's where Armstrong's testicular cancer came from?
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:27 PM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
What if it already happened and that's where Armstrong's testicular cancer came from?
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:27 PM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I would assume that thermo imaging cameras are relatively cheap these days. It wouldn't take more than a good clear image or two from an actual race to prove motor cheating. As long as such images don't appear, I'll assume motors are not common in the peloton. I still find it curious that no images of Femke's bike have come out. These days, talk is cheap and viral images are proof.
posted by jetsetsc at 12:32 PM on April 19, 2016
posted by jetsetsc at 12:32 PM on April 19, 2016
The heat from any battery pack/motor putting out 200 W of mechanical power is going to do some bad things to a carbon fibre seat tube's integrity. We just need to wait until a rider's frame cracks open like a corked bat mid-race.
posted by scruss at 1:06 PM on April 19, 2016
posted by scruss at 1:06 PM on April 19, 2016
WHY DID NOBODY CHOOSE OPTION 1?
Ignoring all the visible add-ons, there are also very discreet versions available. They're pretty expensive, and the "Invisible Performance Package" is almost $600 extra, but it's only a matter of time before you can get a chinese clone on eBay for twenty bucks.
posted by effbot at 1:53 PM on April 19, 2016
Ignoring all the visible add-ons, there are also very discreet versions available. They're pretty expensive, and the "Invisible Performance Package" is almost $600 extra, but it's only a matter of time before you can get a chinese clone on eBay for twenty bucks.
posted by effbot at 1:53 PM on April 19, 2016
A motor will typically have efficiencies of 80-95% so even a 200W motor will only be turning 10-40W into localized heat. Good heat sinking will reduce the heating immediately at the motor.
posted by Mitheral at 2:00 PM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Mitheral at 2:00 PM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Regen is pretty much just a software change in the controller, so not a complicated addition. Mostly you just need to make sure that your batteries support a high enough charge rate that you can dump the power into them. Since we're only talking about a few hundred watt hours of storage, you'd probably want some relatively high C rate cells for that to work well with short, hard braking (for hairpin descents?). Over longer stages, I think that could become the primary source of energy.
On the subject of heat, electric drivetrains are not like internal combustion engines. A 200W engine would be putting out at least 400W of heat. On the other hand, a properly designed 200W electric system would be putting out 20W at most, more than half from the motor itself (some from the controller, almost none from the battery pack if you keep it below 1C). It would be enough for an IR camera to see, but I'd be surprised if it's enough to delaminate carbon fibre (unless you deliberately focused the heat the way a soldering iron does).
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 2:01 PM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
On the subject of heat, electric drivetrains are not like internal combustion engines. A 200W engine would be putting out at least 400W of heat. On the other hand, a properly designed 200W electric system would be putting out 20W at most, more than half from the motor itself (some from the controller, almost none from the battery pack if you keep it below 1C). It would be enough for an IR camera to see, but I'd be surprised if it's enough to delaminate carbon fibre (unless you deliberately focused the heat the way a soldering iron does).
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 2:01 PM on April 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Lipo batteries, especially when pushing energy density limits with highly customized hardware, are fickle things. I can't imagine many things in the world would be more entertaining than seeing a bike catch fire during a major race. Please let this happen.
posted by CaseyB at 2:12 PM on April 19, 2016
posted by CaseyB at 2:12 PM on April 19, 2016
Motors coupled to the bottom bracket have no inputs from which they can regenerate energy. The threat of hidden wheel hub motors is still a long way off.
posted by GuyZero at 2:13 PM on April 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by GuyZero at 2:13 PM on April 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
The heat from any battery pack/motor putting out 200 W of mechanical power is going to do some bad things to a carbon fibre seat tube's integrity. We just need to wait until a rider's frame cracks open like a corked bat mid-race.
I don't know about that. Formula 1 cars generally don't just fall apart in the middle of races, and their hybrid power plants put out staggering amounts of heat.
posted by clorox at 2:15 PM on April 19, 2016
I don't know about that. Formula 1 cars generally don't just fall apart in the middle of races, and their hybrid power plants put out staggering amounts of heat.
posted by clorox at 2:15 PM on April 19, 2016
Oops, yeah, missed that. Of course it would work great for a hipster race on fixies...
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 2:17 PM on April 19, 2016
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 2:17 PM on April 19, 2016
200W would probably be overkill; introp is on the right track w/r/t the nonlinear relationship between power output and the amount of time that output is sustainable near aerobic thresholds. There was a great chart from a NASA study that was reprinted in Bicycling Science that I could have sworn I posted the last time we had this discussion here.
OK, found it: "Fig. 2.4 of the 3rd edition of Bicycling Science, which is in turn based on work found in NASA SP-3006" [warning: huge PDF]
posted by indubitable at 2:31 PM on April 19, 2016
OK, found it: "Fig. 2.4 of the 3rd edition of Bicycling Science, which is in turn based on work found in NASA SP-3006" [warning: huge PDF]
posted by indubitable at 2:31 PM on April 19, 2016
For what it's worth I believe the Van den Driessche's excuse went something along the lines of the bike was one of her bikes from the previous season. She sold it to a friend. That friend game to watch her race and parked the bike near her pit area. Her mechanic saw the bike and thought "Hey, that's Femke's bike" and grabbed it and prepped it for the race as a spare. (In cyclocross it is not uncommon to swap bikes every lap so your mechanic can clean all the mud and crap off the gears). And I _think_ but I'm not sure that the bike was tested in the pits, so she wouldn't have had a chance to jump on it and think "hang on, this is last years bike". So perhaps unlikely, but not completely ridiculous.
Also, I'm always a bit sad when people say stuff along the lines of "cycling is hopelessly ruined by doping". I know this is me speaking as a fan, but one reason this stuff has come out is that cycling has done more than most (or even all?) sports to try to cut out PED use. I'm sure other professional sports see how cycling has been tarred and think pretty hard about home much effort they will put into reducing doping.
posted by markr at 6:02 PM on April 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
Also, I'm always a bit sad when people say stuff along the lines of "cycling is hopelessly ruined by doping". I know this is me speaking as a fan, but one reason this stuff has come out is that cycling has done more than most (or even all?) sports to try to cut out PED use. I'm sure other professional sports see how cycling has been tarred and think pretty hard about home much effort they will put into reducing doping.
posted by markr at 6:02 PM on April 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
Skepticism is good, but I think the evidence is mounting.
Omg, there is evidence that Movistar tried to keep a broken bike hidden which is an extremely common thing because they don't want pictures of their sponsor's broken product becoming internet fodder.
Or wait was I supposed to see anything else except baseless allegations about maybe-there's-a-motor in there?
posted by entropone at 8:12 PM on April 19, 2016
Omg, there is evidence that Movistar tried to keep a broken bike hidden which is an extremely common thing because they don't want pictures of their sponsor's broken product becoming internet fodder.
Or wait was I supposed to see anything else except baseless allegations about maybe-there's-a-motor in there?
posted by entropone at 8:12 PM on April 19, 2016
This clip seems pretty clear to me. At no point has any bicycle that I have fallen off continued to pull itself along the ground. https://youtu.be/ideiS-6gBAc
posted by asok at 6:50 AM on April 20, 2016
posted by asok at 6:50 AM on April 20, 2016
Ah, I don't know. I saw that clip, but it seems like momentum explains the ongoing movement as well as a motor would.
posted by OmieWise at 6:53 AM on April 20, 2016
posted by OmieWise at 6:53 AM on April 20, 2016
This clip seems pretty clear to me. At no point has any bicycle that I have fallen off continued to pull itself along the ground. https://youtu.be/ideiS-6gBAc
If it had a spinning rear wheel touched it to the ground, as Hesjedal's bike did then it would.
posted by entropone at 7:06 AM on April 20, 2016
If it had a spinning rear wheel touched it to the ground, as Hesjedal's bike did then it would.
posted by entropone at 7:06 AM on April 20, 2016
It's had to say from the footage. To me it looks like any momentum should have been used up when the wheel scrapes on the ground before he gets to his feet. Unfortunately as the camera motorbike rolls over it we don't see what happens next. Having ridden electrically assisted bicycles I can say that it doesn't take much power to boost you enough to make a difference when going uphill.
In this clip, however, he appears to be going downhill, which would be a stupid time to use the assist as it would work as drag rather than a boost.
posted by asok at 7:29 AM on April 20, 2016
In this clip, however, he appears to be going downhill, which would be a stupid time to use the assist as it would work as drag rather than a boost.
posted by asok at 7:29 AM on April 20, 2016
Well, the other thing is that the much-discussed motors work by turning the cranks. When Hesjedal crashed, his wheel was still spinning, but his cranks were not. There's really no question here. Seriously, go try it for yourself, without a motor, and you'll get the exact same result.
posted by entropone at 7:42 AM on April 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by entropone at 7:42 AM on April 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
I've been following this debate for several years, but what I keep coming back to is that it seems so improbable that anyone at the world class events would pull this off. In the case of using illegal performance enhancing drugs (and hence why the term for using a motor is being likened to doping) the athlete goes rogue to self medicate and play roulette with the testing regimen. In the case of motorized assistance I can't fathom how an athlete pulls this off without institutional support from the team mechanics.
This is hugely important because it is much harder to pull off a conspiracy involving multiple people and while doping with medicine can be pinned squarely on the shoulders of the athlete, motor doping by its nature implicates the team and its management. Most professional teams are aligned with a bike manufacturer as a headline sponsor (and none operate without some form of equipment sponsorship), so what happens if someone gets caught? The sponsors will drop the teams overnight and probably have recourse to not continue sponsorship through the end of the season. It is that serious because which bike manufacturer wants to have their name associated with someone who could only compete if their bike was motor assisted?
The downsides are so huge here and reports like the above linked one make a lot of speculation without really pinning the tail on the donkey. I'm not saying that motor assist can't happen -- the technology is feasible, affordable and available -- but I do maintain that the risk to reward ratio makes it entirely unlikely. For this reason it doesn't surprise me that the one verified case involved a pro racer (under-23 woman racing cyclo-cross) who wasn't quite in the mainstream of what we consider when talking about professional cycling.
The UCI (the governing body for the sport) is testing bikes for motors and if anything helpful, the above report shows how it may be feasible to use heat imaging as another way to reveal cheaters. They need to watch for it but my hunch is that five years will pass and no more cases will be found. I may be naive but I just don't think people could be that stupid to implicate their whole team like this.
posted by dgran at 8:39 AM on April 20, 2016
This is hugely important because it is much harder to pull off a conspiracy involving multiple people and while doping with medicine can be pinned squarely on the shoulders of the athlete, motor doping by its nature implicates the team and its management. Most professional teams are aligned with a bike manufacturer as a headline sponsor (and none operate without some form of equipment sponsorship), so what happens if someone gets caught? The sponsors will drop the teams overnight and probably have recourse to not continue sponsorship through the end of the season. It is that serious because which bike manufacturer wants to have their name associated with someone who could only compete if their bike was motor assisted?
The downsides are so huge here and reports like the above linked one make a lot of speculation without really pinning the tail on the donkey. I'm not saying that motor assist can't happen -- the technology is feasible, affordable and available -- but I do maintain that the risk to reward ratio makes it entirely unlikely. For this reason it doesn't surprise me that the one verified case involved a pro racer (under-23 woman racing cyclo-cross) who wasn't quite in the mainstream of what we consider when talking about professional cycling.
The UCI (the governing body for the sport) is testing bikes for motors and if anything helpful, the above report shows how it may be feasible to use heat imaging as another way to reveal cheaters. They need to watch for it but my hunch is that five years will pass and no more cases will be found. I may be naive but I just don't think people could be that stupid to implicate their whole team like this.
posted by dgran at 8:39 AM on April 20, 2016
In the case of using illegal performance enhancing drugs (and hence why the term for using a motor is being likened to doping) the athlete goes rogue to self medicate and play roulette with the testing regimen. In the case of motorized assistance I can't fathom how an athlete pulls this off without institutional support from the team mechanics.
"Armstrong’s doctor literally smuggled past a UCI official a liter of saline concealed under his rain coat and administered it to Armstrong to lower his hematocrit right before a blood check." It's not a solo athlete going rogue. It's entire teams.
posted by Etrigan at 8:43 AM on April 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
"Armstrong’s doctor literally smuggled past a UCI official a liter of saline concealed under his rain coat and administered it to Armstrong to lower his hematocrit right before a blood check." It's not a solo athlete going rogue. It's entire teams.
posted by Etrigan at 8:43 AM on April 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
Dude, Google up Tyler Hamilton's 60 minutes interview about riding with Lance Armstrong. Racing teams are corrupt from stem to stern.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 9:05 AM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 9:05 AM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, dgran, I hate to pile on, but your comment betrays almost total ignorance of what the culture of doping is like in professional cycling. Doping is an institutional problem, not a rogue athlete problem.
posted by OmieWise at 9:11 AM on April 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by OmieWise at 9:11 AM on April 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
Some racing teams are definitely corrupt. But the dynamics have changed in the 15 years since Hamilton last rode with Armstrong.
Dopers have talked about how the biological passport system, though flawed, has made a lot of people afraid to dope. The internet and the massive public outcry against the systemic doping HAS, as dgran pointed out, moved doping largely from something that was organized by teams to something that is done by the dopers themselves. OmieWise, this is something that's been pointed out quite clearly by convicted dopers and is a generally accepted point of view by lots of riders, journos, pundits, etc.
With conversations like this it's important to be tuned in to the changes that have happened recently - because they have happened. The risk/reward dynamics, the environment, and the norms have shifted, and being anchored in an outdated context doesn't help.
Going back to motors, there are lots of allegations, and clearly it's possible, but the only evidence that the public has been presented with is the case of Femke Van Den Driessche, and that is insufficient to broad-brush paint bike racing as full of motordopers.
posted by entropone at 9:15 AM on April 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
Dopers have talked about how the biological passport system, though flawed, has made a lot of people afraid to dope. The internet and the massive public outcry against the systemic doping HAS, as dgran pointed out, moved doping largely from something that was organized by teams to something that is done by the dopers themselves. OmieWise, this is something that's been pointed out quite clearly by convicted dopers and is a generally accepted point of view by lots of riders, journos, pundits, etc.
With conversations like this it's important to be tuned in to the changes that have happened recently - because they have happened. The risk/reward dynamics, the environment, and the norms have shifted, and being anchored in an outdated context doesn't help.
Going back to motors, there are lots of allegations, and clearly it's possible, but the only evidence that the public has been presented with is the case of Femke Van Den Driessche, and that is insufficient to broad-brush paint bike racing as full of motordopers.
posted by entropone at 9:15 AM on April 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
To follow up, let me clarify that I have been following professional cycling for decades and I've read several of the tell-all books. I'm quite conversant in the topic and my point above wasn't that cycling is a clean sport or that athletes don't collude in any way to use PEDs. The statement in particular about Armstrong and Ferrari underscores my point because 1998 was the pivotal year (Festina Affair) that changed the logistics of doping. It changed from meds administered by the team to a scenario where each athlete was expected to procure their own solution and be the fall guy (omerta) if they got popped. Armstrong wasn't working with Ferrari in any capacity through his team, but rather as an individual client.
My point is simply that while the motivation to cheat with motors exists and I'm sure there are plenty of athletes who would take the assist, the teams aren't going to get into it. Since 1998 when team directors got sacked they don't put their necks out. A real motor doping scandal would implicate the teams and the people who have long term jobs in professional cycling. The "bad apple" defense for PEDs wouldn't apply to motor doping.
It is inconceivable for someone to use a motor without complicit team management. That is why I think it is unlikely. Too many heads would roll.
posted by dgran at 9:21 AM on April 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
My point is simply that while the motivation to cheat with motors exists and I'm sure there are plenty of athletes who would take the assist, the teams aren't going to get into it. Since 1998 when team directors got sacked they don't put their necks out. A real motor doping scandal would implicate the teams and the people who have long term jobs in professional cycling. The "bad apple" defense for PEDs wouldn't apply to motor doping.
It is inconceivable for someone to use a motor without complicit team management. That is why I think it is unlikely. Too many heads would roll.
posted by dgran at 9:21 AM on April 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
It is inconceivable for someone to use a motor without complicit team management. That is why I think it is unlikely. Too many heads would roll.
Yeah. I'm thinking how this would work. Riders get issued bikes by mechanics. They have their home/training bike, which they're responsible for, and then they have race bikes. Generally, they have their home bike at home, they travel to races, and the team - and its team bus and vans and cars - brings the race bikes.
So let's say a rider wants to put a motor in a bike. Putting it in the home bike doesn't make sense - that doesn't go to races. So the rider would need to get their hands on their race bike. They want a trusted mechanic to install it. Oh, there are team mechanics! Perfect - and necessary. They have to know, because they'll be working on these bikes all the time (before, during, and after every race).
But the riders aren't the mechanics' bosses. The mechanics' bosses are the team bosses - and they're not going to do something this eyebrow-raising without the go-ahead from their boss.
So, institutional support absolutely necessary.
Whether there's that level of committed level of institutional conspiracy is pretty arguable, because the circumstances HAVE changed since the Armstrong era. This isn't exactly new - it started with the Festina affair and was pretty well detailed in the Floyd exposes: Floyd expected his team to fall in line behind his protestations, the same way that USPostal stonewalled behind Armstrong - but instead he found himself hung out to dry.
posted by entropone at 9:46 AM on April 20, 2016
Yeah. I'm thinking how this would work. Riders get issued bikes by mechanics. They have their home/training bike, which they're responsible for, and then they have race bikes. Generally, they have their home bike at home, they travel to races, and the team - and its team bus and vans and cars - brings the race bikes.
So let's say a rider wants to put a motor in a bike. Putting it in the home bike doesn't make sense - that doesn't go to races. So the rider would need to get their hands on their race bike. They want a trusted mechanic to install it. Oh, there are team mechanics! Perfect - and necessary. They have to know, because they'll be working on these bikes all the time (before, during, and after every race).
But the riders aren't the mechanics' bosses. The mechanics' bosses are the team bosses - and they're not going to do something this eyebrow-raising without the go-ahead from their boss.
So, institutional support absolutely necessary.
Whether there's that level of committed level of institutional conspiracy is pretty arguable, because the circumstances HAVE changed since the Armstrong era. This isn't exactly new - it started with the Festina affair and was pretty well detailed in the Floyd exposes: Floyd expected his team to fall in line behind his protestations, the same way that USPostal stonewalled behind Armstrong - but instead he found himself hung out to dry.
posted by entropone at 9:46 AM on April 20, 2016
that is insufficient to broad-brush paint bike racing as full of motordopers.
No one has done this. Your straw man ain't pedaling.
posted by Etrigan at 9:51 AM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
No one has done this. Your straw man ain't pedaling.
posted by Etrigan at 9:51 AM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's true, and respect knuckles for a solid pun use. But I'm pretty solid in my opinion that a lot of this is sensationalist nonsense - and it's leading some people to conclusions about the breadth and depth of motorized doping that aren't supported by evidence ... because their experiences were colored by an era that in many ways has passed.
But I've also commented well much at the tail end of this thread so I'm going to take a step away, because I'm past the point of being a broken record on it and I'd rather not be a threadshitter! :)
posted by entropone at 12:02 PM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
But I've also commented well much at the tail end of this thread so I'm going to take a step away, because I'm past the point of being a broken record on it and I'd rather not be a threadshitter! :)
posted by entropone at 12:02 PM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hesjedal's bike.. It sure is odd, and he is an admitted EPO user. Ion Izagirre at the 2015 Veulta Time Trial is worse.
posted by Chuckles at 1:56 PM on April 20, 2016
posted by Chuckles at 1:56 PM on April 20, 2016
Ion Izagirre at the 2015 Veulta Time Trial yt is worse.
Again, unless this is a hub motor, the pedals aren't moving after the crash so it can't be a motor hidden in the seat tube coupled via the bottom bracket axle like has been described upthread.
posted by GuyZero at 2:02 PM on April 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
Again, unless this is a hub motor, the pedals aren't moving after the crash so it can't be a motor hidden in the seat tube coupled via the bottom bracket axle like has been described upthread.
posted by GuyZero at 2:02 PM on April 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
Right. Depending on how you interpret the French (or don't--I don't, at all :P), the most suspicious examples in the Strade 2 report seem to be rear hub heat signatures (I start that at "It's only the bearings", so give it 20 seconds).
I'm surprised at how hot the wheel rims appear to be in those videos. With no sign of braking, the entire rim is warmer than most bearings. I guess the rims are pretty thermally isolated, but there is clearly a lot of friction. Except on second thought, if that was filmed on a section of sterrati.. All that extra effort it takes to pedal on crappy surfaces must be going straight into heat in the tires.
posted by Chuckles at 3:57 PM on April 20, 2016
I'm surprised at how hot the wheel rims appear to be in those videos. With no sign of braking, the entire rim is warmer than most bearings. I guess the rims are pretty thermally isolated, but there is clearly a lot of friction. Except on second thought, if that was filmed on a section of sterrati.. All that extra effort it takes to pedal on crappy surfaces must be going straight into heat in the tires.
posted by Chuckles at 3:57 PM on April 20, 2016
Look at the scale on the right. The hub is only a few degrees hotter than ambient.
More importantly, thermal imaging cameras don't measure temperature, they measure the amount of IR radiation coming from an object, which varies a lot between materials and can also include reflected radiation.
I'm intrigued that the back door of the team car in the footage appears to be just as "hot" as the suspicious hub. Maybe the sun is behind them and that rider has a shiny hub?
posted by grahamparks at 3:57 AM on April 22, 2016
More importantly, thermal imaging cameras don't measure temperature, they measure the amount of IR radiation coming from an object, which varies a lot between materials and can also include reflected radiation.
I'm intrigued that the back door of the team car in the footage appears to be just as "hot" as the suspicious hub. Maybe the sun is behind them and that rider has a shiny hub?
posted by grahamparks at 3:57 AM on April 22, 2016
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Oooh snaaap.
posted by Etrigan at 6:25 AM on April 19, 2016 [32 favorites]