Don't tell me I'm getting served anything other than Tit Window Pie
April 20, 2016 9:16 AM Subscribe
Earlier this month, the Disney cable network Freeform (formerly ABC Family) announced they had greenlit an upcoming live-action series about the Marvel teenage superheroes Cloak and Dagger. In response, comic artist Kate Beaton has used Twitter and her comic “Hark A Vagrant” to draw attention to the impracticality of Dagger’s costume, notably the Tit Window.
(See also The Hawkeye Initiative, discussed previously.)
Kate Beaton continues her streak of being the best. She is just the best.
posted by joelhunt at 9:21 AM on April 20, 2016 [46 favorites]
posted by joelhunt at 9:21 AM on April 20, 2016 [46 favorites]
On a tree by a river a little tom-tit
Sang "Window, tit window, tit window"
And I said to him, "Dicky-bird, why do you sit
Singing 'Window, tit window, tit window'"
"Is it weakness of intellect, birdie?" I cried
"Or a rather tough worm in your little inside"
With a shake of his poor little head, he replied
"Oh, window, tit window, tit window!"
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:26 AM on April 20, 2016 [32 favorites]
Sang "Window, tit window, tit window"
And I said to him, "Dicky-bird, why do you sit
Singing 'Window, tit window, tit window'"
"Is it weakness of intellect, birdie?" I cried
"Or a rather tough worm in your little inside"
With a shake of his poor little head, he replied
"Oh, window, tit window, tit window!"
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:26 AM on April 20, 2016 [32 favorites]
That last panel in Kate Beaton's comic, I lost it
posted by clockzero at 9:28 AM on April 20, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by clockzero at 9:28 AM on April 20, 2016 [12 favorites]
The weird thing is what they do to Cloak's body is every bit as troubling and weird as Dagger's skintight cut-out bodysuit.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 9:28 AM on April 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 9:28 AM on April 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
Note that Beaton also raises the issue of Cloak literally being a black man with no body who feeds off the energy of a white girl. This is all real Marvel canon.
posted by Wretch729 at 9:29 AM on April 20, 2016 [46 favorites]
posted by Wretch729 at 9:29 AM on April 20, 2016 [46 favorites]
Dagger has always had a great late 70's-early 80's costume design, although it's meant to be a contrast to Cloak and doesn't work so well on its own. Cloak is big and drab and covered, while Dagger is bright and light and seemingly bare. They work best visually when they're together, and they're really more of a visual gimmick than well-defined characters.
But no, the costume wouldn't look good in the real world, any more than other costume designs from the same era do. Even older designs like Daredevil and the Punisher never seem to come out right on screen.
posted by Kevin Street at 9:30 AM on April 20, 2016
But no, the costume wouldn't look good in the real world, any more than other costume designs from the same era do. Even older designs like Daredevil and the Punisher never seem to come out right on screen.
posted by Kevin Street at 9:30 AM on April 20, 2016
Cloak and Dagger? Really? What's next, Chip and Pin?
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 9:37 AM on April 20, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 9:37 AM on April 20, 2016 [7 favorites]
Dagger has always had a great late 70's-early 80's costume design, although it's meant to be a contrast to Cloak and doesn't work so well on its own. Cloak is big and drab and covered, while Dagger is bright and light and seemingly bare. They work best visually when they're together, and they're really more of a visual gimmick than well-defined characters.
but seriously cut a hole right where the t**s are, have to see
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:37 AM on April 20, 2016 [28 favorites]
but seriously cut a hole right where the t**s are, have to see
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:37 AM on April 20, 2016 [28 favorites]
Holy shit, I saw Kate Beaton's comic and I thought she had made those characters up as a parody, because even Marvel wouldn't do something that fucked up, right?
Right?
Goddammit.
posted by Adridne at 9:38 AM on April 20, 2016 [10 favorites]
Right?
Goddammit.
posted by Adridne at 9:38 AM on April 20, 2016 [10 favorites]
Has this comic been rebooted in a less terrible Ultimate form? Because that's really what has saved Marvel: the Ultimate series was an opportunity to workshop and storyboard these characters for the modern era. Without that, I think you end up with shoddy reboots.
posted by anotherpanacea at 9:38 AM on April 20, 2016
posted by anotherpanacea at 9:38 AM on April 20, 2016
I want a mirror-universe version, where the male Dagger wears a bodysuit with cutouts all around the crotch area and the butt.
posted by emjaybee at 9:39 AM on April 20, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 9:39 AM on April 20, 2016 [10 favorites]
Remember when Marvel thought this was a good cover for a book about a teenage girl at boarding school?
posted by almostmanda at 9:40 AM on April 20, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by almostmanda at 9:40 AM on April 20, 2016 [16 favorites]
What? Male superheroes don't have dick windows?
posted by Mental Wimp at 9:42 AM on April 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Mental Wimp at 9:42 AM on April 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
Dick Windows was Batman's original irl name
posted by clockzero at 9:44 AM on April 20, 2016 [44 favorites]
posted by clockzero at 9:44 AM on April 20, 2016 [44 favorites]
Has this comic been rebooted in a less terrible Ultimate form? Because that's really what has saved Marvel: the Ultimate series
I'm not sure we were reading the same Ultimates. Yes, they brought us Samuel L Jackson as Nick Fury, but beyond that the ideas the brought from the "modern era" to the Marvel world consisted of things like Captain America is a xenophobic asshole, and the Hulk is a homophobic asshole, and Tony need alcohol to live(?) so let's not even mention his constant drinking, and that's just the original run without even mentioned the follow ups where we get to see the Blob literally and graphically eat the Wasp. Fun! It also gave us an X-Men run where everyone looked like they were in grungy, mid-90's Gen-13 even though it was the 2000s by that point, and the FF that most influenced the recent, tone deaf and boring Fantastic Four movie. Other than Ultimate Spider-Man, that whole line was a lot more misses than hits.
But to answer your question, yes the made it into the Ultimate universe, and guess what? Dagger has clothes on!
posted by thecjm at 9:46 AM on April 20, 2016 [11 favorites]
Male superheroes don't have dick windows?
No, only dick graysons.
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:47 AM on April 20, 2016 [18 favorites]
No, only dick graysons.
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:47 AM on April 20, 2016 [18 favorites]
emjaybee: "I want a mirror-universe version, where the male Dagger wears a bodysuit with cutouts all around the crotch area and the butt."
You want Doak & Clagger
posted by chavenet at 9:48 AM on April 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
You want Doak & Clagger
posted by chavenet at 9:48 AM on April 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
Oh thank somebody is pointing out all the problematic elements of the duo. Hopefully this stuff will be changed. Even switching the powers still has a woman needing a man and just no.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:59 AM on April 20, 2016
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:59 AM on April 20, 2016
Male version of the empowerment window.
posted by antinomia at 10:06 AM on April 20, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by antinomia at 10:06 AM on April 20, 2016 [14 favorites]
Ooh, halloween ideas.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:07 AM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:07 AM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
Holy shit, I saw Kate Beaton's comic and I thought she had made those characters up as a parody, because even Marvel wouldn't do something that fucked up, right?
You are not alone. It was a few days later when I found out they were real.
posted by jeather at 10:18 AM on April 20, 2016
You are not alone. It was a few days later when I found out they were real.
posted by jeather at 10:18 AM on April 20, 2016
Ooh, halloween ideas.
Indeed, this gives me an idea for a costume that accents my beer belly....
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:22 AM on April 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
Indeed, this gives me an idea for a costume that accents my beer belly....
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:22 AM on April 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm not sure we were reading the same Ultimates
I read... let me see... Avengers, Spider-man, and X-men in Ultimate form, and I mostly enjoyed those. The Joss Whedon run on X-men alone is worth the whole series, even if Fox ruined the mutant cure storyline in the movie version.
But to answer your question, yes the made it into the Ultimate universe, and guess what? Dagger has clothes on!
That seems like an eminently reasonable costume, except insofar as no superhero can really afford to wear white with all the wrestling they do. Do they get a back story or just a cameo?
posted by anotherpanacea at 10:27 AM on April 20, 2016
I read... let me see... Avengers, Spider-man, and X-men in Ultimate form, and I mostly enjoyed those. The Joss Whedon run on X-men alone is worth the whole series, even if Fox ruined the mutant cure storyline in the movie version.
But to answer your question, yes the made it into the Ultimate universe, and guess what? Dagger has clothes on!
That seems like an eminently reasonable costume, except insofar as no superhero can really afford to wear white with all the wrestling they do. Do they get a back story or just a cameo?
posted by anotherpanacea at 10:27 AM on April 20, 2016
The costumes are more reasonable and with the powers swapped Tyrone has a body in the new Runaways series, which is pretty great.
posted by Peccable at 10:37 AM on April 20, 2016
posted by Peccable at 10:37 AM on April 20, 2016
I read... let me see... Avengers, Spider-man, and X-men in Ultimate form, and I mostly enjoyed those. The Joss Whedon run on X-men alone is worth the whole series, even if Fox ruined the mutant cure storyline in the movie version.
Joss Whedon never wrote for Ultimate X-Men. He wrote for Astonishing X-Men, which was never a part of the Ultimates universe.
Also, to the best of my knowledge, the term "Avengers" was never used in the Ultimates universe; the team was simply referred to as the "Ultimates".
posted by Parasite Unseen at 10:41 AM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
Joss Whedon never wrote for Ultimate X-Men. He wrote for Astonishing X-Men, which was never a part of the Ultimates universe.
Also, to the best of my knowledge, the term "Avengers" was never used in the Ultimates universe; the team was simply referred to as the "Ultimates".
posted by Parasite Unseen at 10:41 AM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
Joss Whedon never wrote for Ultimate X-Men. He wrote for Astonishing X-Men, which was never a part of the Ultimates universe.
Also, to the best of my knowledge, the term "Avengers" was never used in the Ultimates universe; the team was simply referred to as the "Ultimates".
Oh my god I do not understand how superhero comic book fans ever know what the fuck is going on. Do you all carry around charts or something.
posted by emjaybee at 10:44 AM on April 20, 2016 [66 favorites]
Also, to the best of my knowledge, the term "Avengers" was never used in the Ultimates universe; the team was simply referred to as the "Ultimates".
Oh my god I do not understand how superhero comic book fans ever know what the fuck is going on. Do you all carry around charts or something.
posted by emjaybee at 10:44 AM on April 20, 2016 [66 favorites]
In the 90s I loved the issues of Spider-man where they showed up because the idea of blackness being a super power was the coolest thing in the world to a crackertastic 12 year old me. Dagger always seemed like she was just there to be a really good flashlight and Cloak's best buddy. Not that either of them was fleshed out much, but the costume was really the only memorable thing about her back then.
posted by mattamatic at 10:44 AM on April 20, 2016
posted by mattamatic at 10:44 AM on April 20, 2016
The costumes are more reasonable and with the powers swapped Tyrone has a body in the new Runaways series
The original Runaways definitely hung a lampshade on the costumes and relationship in their first C&D story.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:54 AM on April 20, 2016
The original Runaways definitely hung a lampshade on the costumes and relationship in their first C&D story.
posted by zombieflanders at 10:54 AM on April 20, 2016
Oh my god I do not understand how superhero comic book fans ever know what the fuck is going on. Do you all carry around charts or something.
The trick to remembering it for me was:
1.) I remembered that Joss Whedon didn't write Ultimate X-Men because I read the comic that he wrote, and I knew that I'd stopped reading anything in the Ultimates universe after The Ultimates came out, on account of it being a trash fire.
2.) I remembered that the Ultimates analogue of the Avengers wasn't called "The Avengers", because at the time I learned about it I thought, "Wow, that is deeply stupid."
posted by Parasite Unseen at 10:55 AM on April 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
The trick to remembering it for me was:
1.) I remembered that Joss Whedon didn't write Ultimate X-Men because I read the comic that he wrote, and I knew that I'd stopped reading anything in the Ultimates universe after The Ultimates came out, on account of it being a trash fire.
2.) I remembered that the Ultimates analogue of the Avengers wasn't called "The Avengers", because at the time I learned about it I thought, "Wow, that is deeply stupid."
posted by Parasite Unseen at 10:55 AM on April 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
Oh thank somebody is pointing out all the problematic elements of the duo. Hopefully this stuff will be changed. Even switching the powers still has a woman needing a man and just no.
You don't need their symbiotic interplay at all. I was never aware of it until I read Kate Beaton's comics and I'm familiar enough with the characters that I was picking out Darkforce hints in the latest season of Agent Carter. It's just stupid and bad and dumb.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:56 AM on April 20, 2016
You don't need their symbiotic interplay at all. I was never aware of it until I read Kate Beaton's comics and I'm familiar enough with the characters that I was picking out Darkforce hints in the latest season of Agent Carter. It's just stupid and bad and dumb.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:56 AM on April 20, 2016
Oooo! They're making a tv adaptation of the 1984 smash hit Cloak and Dagger with Dabney Coleman and that kid from ET?
posted by sparklemotion at 11:13 AM on April 20, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by sparklemotion at 11:13 AM on April 20, 2016 [10 favorites]
I never really noticed the tit window that much, mostly because of the huge cutout arrow pointing at her crotch.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:36 AM on April 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:36 AM on April 20, 2016 [4 favorites]
Oh my god I do not understand how superhero comic book fans ever know what the fuck is going on. Do you all carry around charts or something.
I stopped regularly reading super hero comics a long time ago because of this and it's big reason why I never got back into them. Hell, reading a Wikipedia summary of what a team or character has been up to just make my head spin from all the twists and turns and differences.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:43 AM on April 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
I stopped regularly reading super hero comics a long time ago because of this and it's big reason why I never got back into them. Hell, reading a Wikipedia summary of what a team or character has been up to just make my head spin from all the twists and turns and differences.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:43 AM on April 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
I liked Cloak and Dagger. They were friends with Spider-Man!
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 12:11 PM on April 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 12:11 PM on April 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh my god I do not understand how superhero comic book fans ever know what the fuck is going on. Do you all carry around charts or something.
Hey, it could be worse. It could be DC Comics, in which multiple universes containing multiple earths frequently interacted and teamed up and fought each other's villains and whatnot. And then people decided "fans won't be able to keep track of all these universes and Imaginary Stories and such" so they wrote up Crisis on Infinite Earths, which smashed all the toys together into five universes and then into one single universe in which everyone lived and everyone was happy. Until fans said "um, that wipes out whole groups of characters we like" so they started making pocket universes and alternate timelines and an antimatter universe and a limbo but EVERYONE WAS ON THE SAME TIMELINE for once.
But then fans said "um, things are still screwed up" so they wrote Zero Hour to address that, which rewrote history to make the time paradoxes vanish for a while and now everyone was on one timeline and one universe and EVERYONE WAS HAPPY.
Until other stories started crossing over with Milestone and with Marvel and WE'RE NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO THAT LOOK NOT BEHIND THE CURTAIN YOUNG FAN.
Until they came up with HYPERTIME! which enabled alternate timelines, Elseworlds, and every reality that had ever been in print to exist simultaneously. But it was still all in ONE UNIVERSE.
And then Infinite Crisis happened, which splintered the one universe into many universes and then back into fifty-two universes that were different. Also Superboy Prime -- the one from our (real) world that became a comic character -- punched the walls of reality and made strange things happen.
And then Barry Allen, the Flash, one of the few comic characters who'd ever Stayed Dead, Got Better, and meddled with time a bit and caused Flashpoint, which rebooted the entire multiverse and created 52 _new_ universes in its place.
And then the guy in charge of DC announced that none of the above Crisis storylines ever happened in current continuity.
And then Convergence brought back characters that had been obliterated by those Crises that never happened, thanks to Brainiac's meddling, but at the end he put everybody back where they came from to keep the multiverse from imploding. Good for him!
And then Rebirth! is imminent, in which universes and timelines and multiverses are reportedly _not_ being destroyed or recreated but they're going to renumber all the comics again anyway because HEY LOOK OVER THERE AT THAT THING nothing to see here move along.
In Marvel, the biggest thing you need to keep track of is whether a particular Frog Thor is Thor in frog form, a frog with some of Thor's power, or Forensic Scientist Frog Thor.
posted by delfin at 12:31 PM on April 20, 2016 [31 favorites]
Hey, it could be worse. It could be DC Comics, in which multiple universes containing multiple earths frequently interacted and teamed up and fought each other's villains and whatnot. And then people decided "fans won't be able to keep track of all these universes and Imaginary Stories and such" so they wrote up Crisis on Infinite Earths, which smashed all the toys together into five universes and then into one single universe in which everyone lived and everyone was happy. Until fans said "um, that wipes out whole groups of characters we like" so they started making pocket universes and alternate timelines and an antimatter universe and a limbo but EVERYONE WAS ON THE SAME TIMELINE for once.
But then fans said "um, things are still screwed up" so they wrote Zero Hour to address that, which rewrote history to make the time paradoxes vanish for a while and now everyone was on one timeline and one universe and EVERYONE WAS HAPPY.
Until other stories started crossing over with Milestone and with Marvel and WE'RE NOT PAYING ATTENTION TO THAT LOOK NOT BEHIND THE CURTAIN YOUNG FAN.
Until they came up with HYPERTIME! which enabled alternate timelines, Elseworlds, and every reality that had ever been in print to exist simultaneously. But it was still all in ONE UNIVERSE.
And then Infinite Crisis happened, which splintered the one universe into many universes and then back into fifty-two universes that were different. Also Superboy Prime -- the one from our (real) world that became a comic character -- punched the walls of reality and made strange things happen.
And then Barry Allen, the Flash, one of the few comic characters who'd ever Stayed Dead, Got Better, and meddled with time a bit and caused Flashpoint, which rebooted the entire multiverse and created 52 _new_ universes in its place.
And then the guy in charge of DC announced that none of the above Crisis storylines ever happened in current continuity.
And then Convergence brought back characters that had been obliterated by those Crises that never happened, thanks to Brainiac's meddling, but at the end he put everybody back where they came from to keep the multiverse from imploding. Good for him!
And then Rebirth! is imminent, in which universes and timelines and multiverses are reportedly _not_ being destroyed or recreated but they're going to renumber all the comics again anyway because HEY LOOK OVER THERE AT THAT THING nothing to see here move along.
In Marvel, the biggest thing you need to keep track of is whether a particular Frog Thor is Thor in frog form, a frog with some of Thor's power, or Forensic Scientist Frog Thor.
posted by delfin at 12:31 PM on April 20, 2016 [31 favorites]
So the other day I was trying out "The Miraculous Ladybug" and thinking "Man, Ladybug's costume design really sucks. It's just a full body leotard with polka dots and the only thing breaking up her silhouette is that yoyo thing on her waist. She's basically a red stick!"
But then I'm reminded of how really awful a lot of other superhero designs are.
posted by picklenickle at 12:36 PM on April 20, 2016
But then I'm reminded of how really awful a lot of other superhero designs are.
posted by picklenickle at 12:36 PM on April 20, 2016
Hey, it could be worse. It could be DC Comics, in which multiple universes containing multiple earths frequently interacted and teamed up and fought each other's villains and whatnot.
Worse?? DC's timeline/multiverse fuckery is the best thing about DC!
And then the guy in charge of DC announced that none of the above Crisis storylines ever happened in current continuity.
wait what
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:39 PM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
Worse?? DC's timeline/multiverse fuckery is the best thing about DC!
And then the guy in charge of DC announced that none of the above Crisis storylines ever happened in current continuity.
wait what
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:39 PM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
Something like this.
Don't worry, the writers paid about as much attention to Dan DiDio as that warranted, which is to say, none.
posted by delfin at 12:43 PM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
Don't worry, the writers paid about as much attention to Dan DiDio as that warranted, which is to say, none.
posted by delfin at 12:43 PM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh my god I do not understand how superhero comic book fans ever know what the fuck is going on. Do you all carry around charts or something.
posted by emjaybee at 10:44 AM on April 20
I always likened it to sports. Sure you could watch a baseball or basketball or hockey game and just enjoy it in the moment, but if you had all the historic knowledge, and could fill in the box scores, it made for a deeper, richer experience. It's part of why I hate reboots that purport to simplify the timelines or rewrite histories. First, they never, ever do, and second, it always felt like a slap in the face to readers--like the publishers saying a combination of, "you're too dumb to understand this stuff, plus "we're too lazy to write it properly (and help you understand)" along with "ha, ha you wasted years learning about our universe, what a waste of time, losers." I really dislike feeling contempt from companies whose products I consume.
posted by sardonyx at 12:47 PM on April 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 10:44 AM on April 20
I always likened it to sports. Sure you could watch a baseball or basketball or hockey game and just enjoy it in the moment, but if you had all the historic knowledge, and could fill in the box scores, it made for a deeper, richer experience. It's part of why I hate reboots that purport to simplify the timelines or rewrite histories. First, they never, ever do, and second, it always felt like a slap in the face to readers--like the publishers saying a combination of, "you're too dumb to understand this stuff, plus "we're too lazy to write it properly (and help you understand)" along with "ha, ha you wasted years learning about our universe, what a waste of time, losers." I really dislike feeling contempt from companies whose products I consume.
posted by sardonyx at 12:47 PM on April 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
"Oh my god I do not understand how superhero comic book fans ever know what the fuck is going on. Do you all carry around charts or something."
*EDITOR'S NOTE: See issue #1337
posted by I-baLL at 12:55 PM on April 20, 2016 [7 favorites]
*EDITOR'S NOTE: See issue #1337
posted by I-baLL at 12:55 PM on April 20, 2016 [7 favorites]
In the most recent DC multiverse event, Convergence (Multiversity isn't an event, it's Grant Morrison doing his own thing), a bunch of random heroes went back in time and -- off-panel -- erased the Crisis on Infinite Earths from history, everywhere.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:55 PM on April 20, 2016
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 12:55 PM on April 20, 2016
Then delfin's comment will get randomly transmitted through a wormhole back to Earth a thousand years from now, where it will be the foundation of a whole new religious mythos.
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:06 PM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:06 PM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
A panoply of small gods, sent to do the bidding of hidden, inscrutable, all-powerful beings named Mar-vel and Deece...
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:09 PM on April 20, 2016
posted by Greg_Ace at 1:09 PM on April 20, 2016
In Marvel, the biggest thing you need to keep track of is whether a particular Frog Thor is Thor in frog form, a frog with some of Thor's power, or Forensic Scientist Frog Thor.
Has anyone ever rewritten "Trogdor" as "Frog Thor"? That should be a thing.
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:15 PM on April 20, 2016
Has anyone ever rewritten "Trogdor" as "Frog Thor"? That should be a thing.
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:15 PM on April 20, 2016
That seems like an eminently reasonable costume, except insofar as no superhero can really afford to wear white with all the wrestling they do. Do they get a back story or just a cameo?
They're prominent players in the Ultimate universe... for the five years or so that it sputtered along as Spider-Man (Miles Morales) and his Amazing Friends, anyway. I stopped buying release-date comics before they merged the universes in their big weirdo event recently.
This may actually be around here and marginally accessible... let me see... nope, musta pitched it. Anyway, they got a lot of time in the Ultimate universe from origin through confronting the people that abducted them (and as I recall the racial iffyness about the white girl and black dude gets some time and attention rather than sitting around like a problematic lump) and then heroing. They show up at first in Ulitmate Comics Spider-Man 23 (I had to go look in Marvel Unlimited to figure this out and omg that is not easy what with all the name fiddling as they were keeping the Ultimate U sputting along after they'd all but abandoned it) and they're on a super team with Miles for a while right before they shut the whole thing down.
posted by phearlez at 1:19 PM on April 20, 2016
They're prominent players in the Ultimate universe... for the five years or so that it sputtered along as Spider-Man (Miles Morales) and his Amazing Friends, anyway. I stopped buying release-date comics before they merged the universes in their big weirdo event recently.
This may actually be around here and marginally accessible... let me see... nope, musta pitched it. Anyway, they got a lot of time in the Ultimate universe from origin through confronting the people that abducted them (and as I recall the racial iffyness about the white girl and black dude gets some time and attention rather than sitting around like a problematic lump) and then heroing. They show up at first in Ulitmate Comics Spider-Man 23 (I had to go look in Marvel Unlimited to figure this out and omg that is not easy what with all the name fiddling as they were keeping the Ultimate U sputting along after they'd all but abandoned it) and they're on a super team with Miles for a while right before they shut the whole thing down.
posted by phearlez at 1:19 PM on April 20, 2016
I've been slowly tooling through Uncanny universe, with all it's related spin-offs. I didn't get into comic books as a kid, despite growing up in the golden age of comic book cartoons. The cost-benefit just wasn't there as a kid with a limited allowance for books. I'd finish them in a day, and spend three weeks going crazy I didn't have something new to read. I read a lot of terrible, but long, science fiction.
Now with a limited attention span, and Marvel unlimited, the calculation has shifted. The Marvel universe is simultaneously short form and long form. So I can get through a few issues, and it adds to this larger universe. But if I don't get back into it for a few weeks, it generally feels like some arc is complete.
The hardest transition was getting over the fact that so much happens off panel, compared to other media. Claremont loves throwing you in the middle of story and making you catch up. And with limited pages per issue, it makes perfect sense. But I originally decided to start way back when because dammit, I'm going to fill all these holes in my knowledge. And it took me a while before I stopped looking to see if I missed an issue, and learned to trust the *EDITOR'S NOTE: See issue #1337.
posted by politikitty at 1:21 PM on April 20, 2016
Now with a limited attention span, and Marvel unlimited, the calculation has shifted. The Marvel universe is simultaneously short form and long form. So I can get through a few issues, and it adds to this larger universe. But if I don't get back into it for a few weeks, it generally feels like some arc is complete.
The hardest transition was getting over the fact that so much happens off panel, compared to other media. Claremont loves throwing you in the middle of story and making you catch up. And with limited pages per issue, it makes perfect sense. But I originally decided to start way back when because dammit, I'm going to fill all these holes in my knowledge. And it took me a while before I stopped looking to see if I missed an issue, and learned to trust the *EDITOR'S NOTE: See issue #1337.
posted by politikitty at 1:21 PM on April 20, 2016
Note that Beaton also raises the issue of Cloak literally being a black man with no body who feeds off the energy of a white girl.
Well, at lest that will be a welcome distraction from Marvel's depiction of Asians...
posted by happyroach at 1:41 PM on April 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
Well, at lest that will be a welcome distraction from Marvel's depiction of Asians...
posted by happyroach at 1:41 PM on April 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
> "Oh my god I do not understand how superhero comic book fans ever know what the fuck is going on. Do you all carry around charts or something."
Recently, I learned about something I wanted to know regarding a superhero comic by googling for a few images I couldn't find on the visual companion to a weekly podcast that at the time was explaining the extensive, obscure backstory necessary to understand a no-longer-extant comics series I never read that spun off from another series I stopped reading more than a quarter of a century ago.
I think I am about as far as it is possible to be from real life at this point.
posted by kyrademon at 2:58 PM on April 20, 2016 [9 favorites]
Recently, I learned about something I wanted to know regarding a superhero comic by googling for a few images I couldn't find on the visual companion to a weekly podcast that at the time was explaining the extensive, obscure backstory necessary to understand a no-longer-extant comics series I never read that spun off from another series I stopped reading more than a quarter of a century ago.
I think I am about as far as it is possible to be from real life at this point.
posted by kyrademon at 2:58 PM on April 20, 2016 [9 favorites]
I was into comics, even superhero comics, for well into my late 20s (maybe 2009ish?). I should be a really good candidate for liking the recent spate of comics-based big-budget media -- movies, TV shows, everything. And yet I basically stopped seeing anything after The Dark Knight Rises, and hated almost everything I saw before it, and I think the biggest and most important reason is — you can't put an actual human being in a superhero costume and have them look like anything but a fucking buffoon. Any human being, any costume. Total clown.
I've talked about this with other comics fans who don't seem to have the problem I have. For some reason they can include it in the things they're suspending disbelief of, and I just can't. I wish I could say it was for enlightened reasons — I always knew the costumes comics put women in were horrendous and absurd, even when drawn (and God, especially Dagger and Emma Frost, mentioned above), but I wasn't possessed of enough moral strength as a young man to base my comics-reading decisions on that. But I think superhero costumes are underappreciated as a source of absolute lunatic awfulness in live-action movies and TV, and this is as good a reason as any to start talking about how we can keep from putting living humans inside them anymore.
posted by penduluum at 3:24 PM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've talked about this with other comics fans who don't seem to have the problem I have. For some reason they can include it in the things they're suspending disbelief of, and I just can't. I wish I could say it was for enlightened reasons — I always knew the costumes comics put women in were horrendous and absurd, even when drawn (and God, especially Dagger and Emma Frost, mentioned above), but I wasn't possessed of enough moral strength as a young man to base my comics-reading decisions on that. But I think superhero costumes are underappreciated as a source of absolute lunatic awfulness in live-action movies and TV, and this is as good a reason as any to start talking about how we can keep from putting living humans inside them anymore.
posted by penduluum at 3:24 PM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
kyrademon: the Captain Britain episode in the run-up to Excalibur? (Jay & Miles are the best. I barely even read comics, but I'm so into their podcast.)
posted by epersonae at 4:21 PM on April 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by epersonae at 4:21 PM on April 20, 2016 [5 favorites]
Exactly that one, yes. :)
posted by kyrademon at 5:10 PM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by kyrademon at 5:10 PM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
penduluum: "you can't put an actual human being in a superhero costume and have them look like anything but a fucking buffoon. Any human being, any costume. "
Wait, do you count Iron Man's suit as a "costume"? Because while I agree with you overall, Iron Man (and War Machine, et al) look fine on-screen.
Also, the Hulk, but I don't know if "torn Dockers" counts as a "costume".
posted by Bugbread at 5:15 PM on April 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
Wait, do you count Iron Man's suit as a "costume"? Because while I agree with you overall, Iron Man (and War Machine, et al) look fine on-screen.
Also, the Hulk, but I don't know if "torn Dockers" counts as a "costume".
posted by Bugbread at 5:15 PM on April 20, 2016 [3 favorites]
Yeah, I think Marvel does mostly okay with its costumes on screen, because either the costume has practical purpose (Iron Man), the hero isn't human (Thor, Vision), or it's just snazzy and improbably good-looking tactical gear (Falcon, Winter Soldier, Hawkeye, Black Widow). I do admit that aside from the truly excellent stealth suit in Captain America: The Winter Soldier (BEST UNIFORM, FIGHT ME ABOUT IT), all of Captain America's uniforms are sort of cringeworthy. That's okay though, because he's meant to be literal propaganda.
There's just a certain point where you have to accept that the costumes are part of the visual language of the genre though, so you can't apply hard and fast standards of plausibility to them. So yeah, they're kind of lunatic: why does Black Widow have to wear a skin-tight jumpsuit? Why did Daredevil lean into his terrible choices and put horns on his costume??? Don't worry about it. At least the live action costumes look mostly plausible and not actively injurious to the heroes' safety. There's a reason we haven't seen any of the really bananas costumes up on the big or small screen yet in the MCU, so I have faith that we will continue to avoid tit windows. They just don't fit with the MCU's aesthetic.
posted by yasaman at 5:29 PM on April 20, 2016
There's just a certain point where you have to accept that the costumes are part of the visual language of the genre though, so you can't apply hard and fast standards of plausibility to them. So yeah, they're kind of lunatic: why does Black Widow have to wear a skin-tight jumpsuit? Why did Daredevil lean into his terrible choices and put horns on his costume??? Don't worry about it. At least the live action costumes look mostly plausible and not actively injurious to the heroes' safety. There's a reason we haven't seen any of the really bananas costumes up on the big or small screen yet in the MCU, so I have faith that we will continue to avoid tit windows. They just don't fit with the MCU's aesthetic.
posted by yasaman at 5:29 PM on April 20, 2016
There's just a certain point where you have to accept that the costumes are part of the visual language of the genre though, so you can't apply hard and fast standards of plausibility to them.
I feel the same way about anime.
posted by Greg_Ace at 6:09 PM on April 20, 2016
I feel the same way about anime.
posted by Greg_Ace at 6:09 PM on April 20, 2016
So yeah, they're kind of lunatic: why does Black Widow have to wear a skin-tight jumpsuit? Why did Daredevil lean into his terrible choices and put horns on his costume???
If anyone in the Marvel universe has justification for an ugly costume, one would think it's the blind guy. Captain Ultra has no such excuse.
As for Black Widow, it's been suggested that it helped her nail the audition.
posted by delfin at 6:16 PM on April 20, 2016
If anyone in the Marvel universe has justification for an ugly costume, one would think it's the blind guy. Captain Ultra has no such excuse.
As for Black Widow, it's been suggested that it helped her nail the audition.
posted by delfin at 6:16 PM on April 20, 2016
Oh my god I do not understand how superhero comic book fans ever know what the fuck is going on. Do you all carry around charts or something.
Literally, yes.
posted by sandswipe at 11:02 PM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
Literally, yes.
posted by sandswipe at 11:02 PM on April 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
> Oh my god I do not understand how superhero comic book fans ever know what the fuck is going on. Do you all carry around charts or something.
Hey, it could be worse. It could be DC Comics, in which multiple universes containing multiple earths frequently interacted and teamed up and fought each other's villains and whatnot. ... ... ... ... ... ...
Based on the London cabby brain studies, your hippocampus must be 1) the size of a kiełbasa and 2) plotting to harass / consume other weaker parts of your brain.
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:18 PM on April 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
Hey, it could be worse. It could be DC Comics, in which multiple universes containing multiple earths frequently interacted and teamed up and fought each other's villains and whatnot. ... ... ... ... ... ...
Based on the London cabby brain studies, your hippocampus must be 1) the size of a kiełbasa and 2) plotting to harass / consume other weaker parts of your brain.
posted by sebastienbailard at 11:18 PM on April 20, 2016 [2 favorites]
Bah. Fans these days have it easy what with Wikipedia and fansites and such making it easy to stay up to date. Back in the day we had to make do with indifferently researched Amazing Heroes Hero Histories and half remembered Mark Gruenwald Marvel Age columns/footnotes in Captain America.
posted by MartinWisse at 2:35 AM on April 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by MartinWisse at 2:35 AM on April 21, 2016 [3 favorites]
There's just a certain point where you have to accept that the costumes are part of the visual language of the genre though
Totally. And I have no issue (even enjoy!) doing that in drawn/animated media, but I find I can't in live action. It's true, though, that Iron Man is kind of the least bad.
Kate Beaton is a wonderment. I hope if they do this that they just give Dagger, like, bright white street clothes. Like a more comfy Elijah Snow.
posted by penduluum at 3:04 AM on April 21, 2016
Totally. And I have no issue (even enjoy!) doing that in drawn/animated media, but I find I can't in live action. It's true, though, that Iron Man is kind of the least bad.
Kate Beaton is a wonderment. I hope if they do this that they just give Dagger, like, bright white street clothes. Like a more comfy Elijah Snow.
posted by penduluum at 3:04 AM on April 21, 2016
This version of her costume is at least somewhat more practical. But I don't love how Ty is being all looming and scary behind her.
The whole Cloak and Dagger thing... I can see how it would be attractive, as an idea, to make the two of them opposites in as many ways as possible... dark - light, Black - White, man - woman, poor - rich, energy absorbing - energy expelling. At the same time, I can see how the whole concept comes with some deeply problematic and hurtful tropes.
posted by Too-Ticky at 7:55 AM on April 21, 2016
The whole Cloak and Dagger thing... I can see how it would be attractive, as an idea, to make the two of them opposites in as many ways as possible... dark - light, Black - White, man - woman, poor - rich, energy absorbing - energy expelling. At the same time, I can see how the whole concept comes with some deeply problematic and hurtful tropes.
posted by Too-Ticky at 7:55 AM on April 21, 2016
Comicsalliance has an article on the topic of Dagger's costume, discussing several variants over the years and media.
posted by Fleebnork at 8:31 AM on April 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Fleebnork at 8:31 AM on April 21, 2016 [4 favorites]
All I really want is a Squirrel Girl movie written by joss whedon, guy maddin and adam mckay and starring Maya Rudolph and kristin wiig
posted by clockzero at 9:58 AM on April 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by clockzero at 9:58 AM on April 23, 2016 [2 favorites]
Back in the day we had to make do with indifferently researched Amazing Heroes Hero Histories and half remembered Mark Gruenwald Marvel Age columns/footnotes in Captain America.
The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe and its DC counterpart helped a lot, and it also had a lot of really spiffy diagrams of various gadgets (Iron Man's suit, Hawkeye's different specialized arrows (which got featured in an issue of Fraction's Hawkeye), the Ultimate Nullifier, etc.) that made them seem almost realistic.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:35 PM on April 23, 2016
The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe and its DC counterpart helped a lot, and it also had a lot of really spiffy diagrams of various gadgets (Iron Man's suit, Hawkeye's different specialized arrows (which got featured in an issue of Fraction's Hawkeye), the Ultimate Nullifier, etc.) that made them seem almost realistic.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:35 PM on April 23, 2016
Also, if there were anyone who was born to play Squirrel Girl, it's Kristen Schaal.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:36 PM on April 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:36 PM on April 23, 2016 [4 favorites]
The DC version was Who's Who but both versions were less than fully authoritative. Entries were limited to a page or two, so there was only so much that could get crammed in, even with small, tight text.
There were some other references--the one that I'm most familiar with is the Batman Encyclopedia--but they were few and far between and coming across them was more a matter of luck than skill. And they weren't cheap.
posted by sardonyx at 9:42 PM on April 23, 2016
There were some other references--the one that I'm most familiar with is the Batman Encyclopedia--but they were few and far between and coming across them was more a matter of luck than skill. And they weren't cheap.
posted by sardonyx at 9:42 PM on April 23, 2016
I'mma let u finish but Ellie Kemper would be the best Squirrel Girl EVER.
posted by Fleebnork at 1:16 PM on April 26, 2016
posted by Fleebnork at 1:16 PM on April 26, 2016
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*snort laughs coffee all over keyboard*
posted by Fizz at 9:21 AM on April 20, 2016 [4 favorites]