Comments on: Comments on 15915

Post number 15915

ProfLinusPauling — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:32:26 -0800

About Sydney Poitier Something one of my professor's brought up. He said, "I'm tired of everyone being politically correct in Hollywood. They say African-American because they are afraid to say Black." His point being that Mr. Poitier is from the Bahamas and not Africa. What do you think?

By: ColdChef

ColdChef — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:41:57 -0800

I'm not sure I see your point. Who are we mad at here?

By: thomas j wise

thomas j wise — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:43:53 -0800

Presumably, people refer to Poitier as "African-American," if that's what they're doing, because a lot of young 'uns actually have no clue that he's not from the USA? I don't know if "PC" has anything to do with it. Just a thought.

By: anapestic

anapestic — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:52:23 -0800

If (and I don't know enough about history to say whether this is the case for sure) natives of the Bahamas are originally of African descent, then the case could be made that african-american is not inaccurate. I suppose it would be better to say Bahamian. It would be better still if race were not an issue.

By: Perigee

Perigee — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:57:23 -0800

And what's the problem with calling him whatever seems to be the going public descriptor for people of his color? Does he describe himself as a county-of-origin - American? Seems to me that this professor of yours is either dubious in his racial ethics, or is trying to start a classroom flamewar.

By: ashbury

ashbury — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 08:59:31 -0800

This reminds me of the Boston Public episode this week. White folk aren't allowed to use the term "nigger" even when speaking it in the manner that "black" people might appreciate, because white folk are not and never can be "black" and therefor can never understand what the word really means. I know that I'm possibly opening up a can of worms here. Be gentle. Anapestic, I agree, race issues suck - people are people.

By: jpoulos

jpoulos — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:06:32 -0800

You actually had a professor say "They say African-American because they are afraid to say Black". When I first read it, I thought you were talking about something a dumb high school kid had said. No one's "afraid" of anything. The word "black" has some truly negative connotations--think "black arts" or "blackball". People use the term "african-american" to avoid that negative light. Sometimes the term is less accurate. It's not a big deal. And no one is being chased with torches for using the word "black". I've never understood why people get so exasperated over it.

By: stormy

stormy — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:08:20 -0800

Last time I checked, Sydney [sic] was an American. Born in America. Period.

What really gets me about Hollywood is the fact that these (Black) Americans at the Academy Awards talk about how they've made this big breakthrough like America has been holding them back. The Academy is the one who hasn't showered them with accolades. The rest of America has been showing their support for years by going to their movies in droves. When Halle and Denzel are making $20 million a movie, they should understand that it's not just (Black) Americans going to the movies. I can't imagine what these people will ever do if we are able to somehow eliminate race issues...

Sorry to offend people, but I see enough successfull (Black) Americans out there taking advantage of this land of opportunity that I get a bit upset when they point fingers at the wrong people. Okay, so now I'm way off-topic.... :)

By: jpoulos

jpoulos — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:09:09 -0800

um.. that first sentence is a (rhetorical) question. without the ? it's unclear.

By: mikhail

mikhail — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:15:32 -0800

So let me get this straight. We have a post with a link to a cheesy bio page that is uninteresting, really has nothing to do with anything said in the post, and is only provided as a catalyst to debate something someone's professor said?

By: briank

briank — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:16:59 -0800

Sidney Poitier was born in the U.S. but is a native of the Bahamas. Should we not then call him an African-Bahamian? Seems the true PC thing to do.

By: Shadowkeeper

Shadowkeeper — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:23:12 -0800

I've never really liked the term "African-America," and I strongly suspect that most Blacks don't feel the need to be called "African-American" anymore than I feel the need to be called "European-American" just because I have bunch of Scots and Scandinavians in my family tree. Who found the word "Black" so offensive that they felt the need to cook up something else? It just seems like an initiative headed up by Jesse Jackson and foisted on the American public as a PC / publicity maneuver. (Here's an interesting page on the term, by the way. "there is little indication that African American is poised to push black aside as that term earlier pushed aside Negro. Indeed, recent surveys among black Americans, while confirming widespread acceptance of African American, indicate a strong continued preference for black.") If specifically referring to someone's race, I just use Black, White, Latino, etc; in any other context, I prefer to just go with plain old "American"

By: Shadowkeeper

Shadowkeeper — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:24:18 -0800

Oh, and ... If ... natives of the Bahamas are originally of African descent, then the case could be made that african-american is not inaccurate. Yes, but if you believe in evolution you can justifiably call any US citizen an "African-American"

By: me3dia

me3dia — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:26:18 -0800

In areas of the country where there are many African and black Latino immigrants (NYC, Chicago, Miami, etc.), it is sometimes just inaccurate to call all people with dark skin African American. I think there are some people who avoid calling dark-skinned people "black," generally out of fear of offending them. What many don't understand is that avoiding it calls attention to the issue, highlighting the discrimination instead of diminishing it.

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:28:53 -0800

The word "white" has some truly negative connotations--think "whitewash," "white-hot," "a white fury," "a white terror," "bleed [the company] white," "poor white," "white elephant," "white-faced terror," giving up to the enemy by "waving the white flag," "white-livered" whimps, the great "white shark," and the never-ending "white water" case. So no more calling me "white." I want to be known as a Candian-Canadian.

By: Wood

Wood — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:37:30 -0800

Ashbury, what is your problem? A million slurs have been adopted by the slurred upon group. It happens all the time. It's not complicated. It's not important. And go ahead and use the word if you feel like it. And, I'm from CA and most of the people I know, my family, etc use the word Black (or black.) I go back and forth. And sometimes I'll try to use the word people use to describe themselves. Personally, I think this is a non-issue made up by idiot anti-PC types. Or maybe they are such fraidy cats that they really feel scared to use the word black. Oh yeah, one reason I use black is that there are white people in Africa. And I've heard the term "black African" used quite politely it seems to me.

By: dwivian

dwivian — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:39:30 -0800

Lemme see if I can put on my Southern Accent for this one: "Why is it that all them colored people want to be called black?" Didn't they select the term? I guess people can pick what they want to be called (naming something is part of executing dominance over it), but am I allowed the same opportunities? I don't want to be a Candian-Canadian, whatever that is. Irish American, maybe. But, more accurately, Pan-Celtic-American. Beats "pasty white geek", at any rate.

By: dchase

dchase — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:44:49 -0800

I believe he should be called Mr. Poitier.

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:46:23 -0800

Canadian-Canadian. My ethnic background is a melange, and all of it is several generations foreign to me. Some long-ago ancestor may have lived in Ireland or Norway or god-knows-where: I really don't know and I really don't care. For the past several generations, my family has been born and bred on Canadian soil, so there's no hyphenation to be had. Don't call me by my ethnicity. Call me by my first name.

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:46:24 -0800

By: five fresh fish

five fresh fish — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:47:12 -0800

Grrr. Surely MeFi could block accidental double posts.

By: awadwatt

awadwatt — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:47:42 -0800

briank - i think that should be American-Bahamian.

By: ashbury

ashbury — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 09:51:13 -0800

Wood, no problem. I was describing the Boston Public episode that had a similar situation, with a white teacher who wanted to discuss the word "nigger", sorry for the confusion. Personally, I have no problem with describing people as Black. And to me, Sidney Poitier is Black, unless he prefers something else. dchase, beat me to it.

By: stormy

stormy — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:04:58 -0800

"I went to buy a new TV. The Politically Correct sales...um, person, told me that my choices were 'a TV of color' or an 'African-American and Anglo [European-American]' TV."
(credit to eliot@dg-rtp.dg.com (Topher Eliot))

By: Postroad

Postroad — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:05:03 -0800

As I have been told: when a person is dark-skinned he is usually referred to as Black. If, on the other hand, you are referring to someone from an African heritage who is black (after all, there are white Africans inb S. Africa), you refer to him or her as (assuming they are now citizens of America) asAfrican-Americans. Thus, I have a cousin who is white, from S. Africa who is now an American: she is an African-American.

By: Su

Su — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:05:19 -0800

I say black. It's simple. It's relatively neutral, in that it avoids the country issue, particularly considering we've already established that "African-Americans" aren't necessarily "African" anyway. Also consider that there are white South Africans(leave Apartheid out of this), and some Dominicans darker than any African I have ever seen. As a general rule, I avoid bringing up ethnicity/country anyway, since I see it as mostly unnecessary, but otherwise, skin color, or "...looks [country]" is a convenient place to start. I know what I mean, and I don't use the word in any negative connotation. That's all any of us can ask of any word. Nigger is a little special in that it carries a very long and painful history behind it. If you're not black yourself, you generally have to be "in" personally with someone before you should even consider using it, regardless of whether it's okay with other people you know. I just don't like the word, myself. In my experience, most black people just say "black", also. I see "African-American" as being something of a political stance, similar to how politcally-involved gay people tend to lean toward the word "queer" instead.

By: Faze

Faze — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:11:52 -0800

I don't know if any of you recall, but the whole United States of America was dragged kicking and screaming into calling Negroes "Blacks" back in the late 1960s. Nobody had much choice in the matter, and I don't believe that the race in questions was ever formally polled on the subject. The instigators were militant Negroes/Blacks, who insisted that Negro was a somehow patronizing or less-than-respectful racial designation. (I suspect that they preferred "Black" because it sounds scarier, and that was a period when militants were achieving a lot through fear.) Now, at the instigation of Jesse Jackson, we have been dragged kicking and screaming into calling Blacks "African-Americans." Once again, this was achieved by fiat. No one polled Negroes/Blacks/African-Americans to see what they thought. I rather liked Negro, myself. It has a gentle, beautiful, and somehow dignified tone. But I'm also happy to go along with whatever becomes generally accepted. It doesn't take much effort.

By: Outlawyr

Outlawyr — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:13:50 -0800

Why not just call him Mr. Tibbs? (sorry dchase, you beat me to that one, but I couldn't resist)

By: riviera

riviera — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:14:58 -0800

In Britain, the term is 'black', because 'African-Briton' is both a mouthful and inaccurate, since most black Britons trace their ancestry, like Poitier, back to the Caribbean. From that context, 'African-American' is rather like 'restroom': it evades as it identifies. (The whole hyphen-American thing I find bizarre, anyway.) British style guides usually correct 'African-American' to 'black', as well, and as style guides pay my wages, I agree: "Africans may be black or white. If you mean blacks, write blacks." And to clarify, Sidney Poitier was born in Miami while his parents were away from the Bahamas on business, which makes him a dual-citizen, a genuine hyphen-American. Now, it's arguable whether one nationality took precedence as the sprog dropped onto American soil from his Bahamian mother, but that's irrelevant. ('Native' is the wrong word here, because it implies 'born': nativity plays etc. I have to correct that in wire copy so bloody often.) I believe he should be called Mr. Poitier. Heh. Now he should be called Sir Sidney, as he's a KCMG by virtue of his Bahamian ambassadorship. But that's Torygraph-style, really. And American papers are notoriously inconsistent at acknowledging foreign titles.

By: Ufez Jones

Ufez Jones — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:20:16 -0800

"Africans may be black or white. If you mean blacks, write blacks." Or Arab. Let's not forget Northern Africa. I have an Egyptian friend who, as a running joke, always refers to himself as African American, seeing as how he was born and raised in Egypt, yet now lives in the States.

By: me3dia

me3dia — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:20:35 -0800

I see "African-American" as being something of a political stance, similar to how politcally-involved gay people tend to lean toward the word "queer" instead. I think you hit it on the head, Su.

By: ZachsMind

ZachsMind — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:23:13 -0800

MetaTalk

By: boltman

boltman — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:29:40 -0800

It seems like there is some value to "African-American" precisely because it is more specific. Unlike "black," it is not a race, but a cultural group. African-Americans have a unique cultural history (slavery, Jim Crowe, civil rights movement, etc). This cultural history is not shared by all "blacks" and I think using a term that reminds us all of this history is useful, given our culture's propensity to hsitorical amnesia. The term that I have a beef with is "people of color" because it implies that whites have no "color." But maybe that's a topic for another day.

By: Sapphireblue

Sapphireblue — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:31:21 -0800

Lemme see if I can put on my Southern Accent for this one: Hi, um? That was unnecessary. I'm so tired of every single MetaFilter thread about American race relations turning into, to degree or another, an excuse for Southerner-bashing. And I'm tired of making this same post over and over again but I'll stop when the reflexive and small-minded anti-Southern bullshit stops. Can you people truly not see the hypocrisy inherent in hanging out here trying to out-nice one another where black/white race relations are concerned, yet without fail managing to perpetuate the ludicrous idea that racism is or ever was an evil confined to, and the fault of, the American South? It's offensive to Southerners and it's offensive to people who are victims of racism every day in the extremely large portion of the world where a Confederate flag never flew. You may now return to your regularly scheduled marginalization of one diverse and numerous group of Americans in the course of proving how very very open-minded you are about another.

By: Perigee

Perigee — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:36:52 -0800

What I can't seem to figure out is why this whole magilla is an issue at all. We're circling around it, kicking the tires, examining it from a historical/ethical/political/sociological standpoint... and it isn't even a discussion that merits thought. Is this some kind of white angst thing? African-American is what flies now, so whatever. We're never going to get past the race thing if we stop to disect and ponder something as trivial as this. 'A rose by any other name', folks.

By: ashbury

ashbury — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:38:59 -0800

sapphireblue, ouch. That was a good slag. Not necessarily true, mind you, but good.

By: krewson

krewson — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:49:15 -0800

>>... perpetuate the ludicrous idea that racism is or ever was an evil confined to, and the fault of, the American South? Not so ludicrous an idea ... while racism pervaded (and arguably pervades) the nation there's a reason why the northern states were destinations for black folks before, during and after the Civil War. The underground railroad wasn't shuttling folks down south, after all. And in the 1960s, unless I'm mistaken, it's the brutal murder of northerner Emmitt Till (for allegedly whistling at a white woman) in Mississippi to the intolerance of Alabama's governor George Wallace when it came to integrating schools and buses that grnered headlines ... the south has its reputation for a reason. (Dixie flag on the S. Carolina statehouse? Hello???)

By: swell

swell — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 10:57:13 -0800

The problem with using the word "black" to describe African Americans is that it needs to cover everyone from Wesley Snipes to Lena Horne. Stating that Mr. Poitier is black flies in the face of logic; he's clearly dark brown.

By: MrMoonPie

MrMoonPie — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 11:01:11 -0800

Yeah, krewson, and don't forget about that Rodney King/Abner Louima thing that happened in Alabama a few years ago. Only in the South.

By: krewson

krewson — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 11:03:25 -0800

while racism pervaded (and arguably pervades) the nation miss that part, hon?

By: owillis

owillis — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 11:21:36 -0800

I'm black. I've never been to Africa.

By: Sapphireblue

Sapphireblue — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 11:31:34 -0800

krewson---hon---way to prove with your incisive, eye-opening examples that I was wrong when I said that there's never ever been any racism in the South! Except that I never said that. I lived in the North the first 14 years of my life, then in the South for the next ten, in both cases with family native to the area. So I have examples too. Just personal experience, mind you, for illustrative purposes only:

Guess where, of the 5 or 6 public high schools I attended, was the one that was 99.996% white, in spite of being 1 mile from the state's capital city with a very significant black population? The North. (All the rest of the high schools I went to were in rural Georgia or urban, ish, South Carolina and were far more racially diverse.)
Guess where the area across the river was called "the White Shore" as often as it was called "the West Shore"? The North. (The sad part is that it was mostly white people who seemed to use the phrase---like it was something to be proud of.)
Guess where I found out that someone I knew was considering joining an apparently active and thriving KKK branch, complete with tidily photocopied recruitment materials? The North. (Whereas whatever KKK remains in the South has, it would seem, at least the sense to be quiet and ashamed: I never ran into them, anyway.)

My examples don't prove that racism is a Northern thing any more than yours prove it's a Southern thing. My point was, is, that racism is everywhere, and that stereotyping people based on where they live, or their accent, is every bit as prejudiced, ugly, and wrong as it is to do so based on the color of their skin. Still want to show me how I'm wrong? Never mind, I've monopolized the thread enough. I can't argue sense into a head that's unprepared to accept it, but hopefully will have made some other folks think just a little bit the next time someone says "racist" and they hear, instead, "Southerner."

By: sudama

sudama — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 11:39:38 -0800

we have been dragged kicking and screaming into calling Blacks "African-Americans." I usually use "black" because that's what the, uh, black people I know usually say. I don't generally need to be dragged kicking and screaming into treating people with respect. Do most people?

By: black8

black8 — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 11:43:57 -0800

Ditto owillis. I'd rather be plainly referred to as American period, since my family has probably been here longer than Pat Buchanan's. We are not monolith, however, there are times when we (black folks) have common interests and can be defined as a group. I'm sick of the constant hijacking of race relations by Sharpton/Jackson/Farrakan etc. or whomever feels the need to designate himself HNIC. Call me by name...if you must describe me-"that large, black, handsome fella" will do nicely...thank you.

By: krewson

krewson — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 11:57:50 -0800

ok. didn't mean to upset the thread, as well. Sapphire, i'm not saying the north isn't racist. I'm saying the South has its rep for a damn good reason. Period. End of flame war, have a happy weekend.

By: bingo

bingo — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:03:48 -0800

I use "black" in most cases because in some cases it's hard to know whether the other terms are accurate, e.g. "Did you see that cute black girl?" Since I don't know her, haven't heard her speak, etc., I'm not going to presume her nationality in a sentence meant to distinguish her from, say, several girls she's standing with who are white. (Otherwise, of course, no need to say anything but "Did you see that cute girl?")

By: ahughey

ahughey — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:12:37 -0800

Whereas whatever KKK remains in the South has, it would seem, at least the sense to be quiet and ashamed: I never ran into them, anyway. Speaking of Southerners and the KKK, there's a protest rally this weekend in Florida. Second in as many months I believe.

By: ZachsMind

ZachsMind — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:28:06 -0800

Sidney Poitier is one of the greatest American actors in the history of cinema. Lillies of the Field. Piece of the Action. Guess Who's Coming to Dinner. Sneakers. He can do comedy and drama with equal flair and grace, when most actors lack such depth and range. His presence and his life has enriched everyone regardless of race, color, creed, or whatever other differences between us which each make us uniquely human. Denzel Washington did not win his Oscar this year because he's a great black man or even because he's a great man. He got it because he's a great actor, and so is Poitier. A true African American is someone who was born in Africa, and has chosen in this lifetime to become an American citizen. Anyone born on American soil is American first and anything else remotely second. Epidermal pigmentation is a pointless measure of anything, and while one's ancestry may be a factor in one's development, it's an absurd tool for defining one's character. I tire of this argument. A man is to be measured by his accomplishments and talents. Skin color is flavor; not substance.

By: mikhail

mikhail — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:40:19 -0800

It is next to impossible to speak of someone and not put them in some sort of descriptive category. The idea would be to not use words that are derogatory, degrading, demeaning, or defamatory (a little alliteration goes a long way sometimes) while doing so. "African-American" is a generalized term as is "black", and "white", etc. And I would think it would be quite clear that people don't define themselves in generalized terms. I'm sure the entire "Black" or "African-American" community is not wholly behind the use of any particular term, as I'm sure each offends someone. But we do need terms/words to communicate our meaning. So pick your words and use them wisely. If we could be open and honest with one another, without fear of offense, I could use the term "black" in Mr. Poitier's (or anyone's) presence, and he would be free to correct me, or say "I prefer this" and I can easily adjust my speech. He's even free to ignore the use of a term he doesn't care for, because he understands the meaning of the word in the context it was being used.

By: lucien

lucien — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:40:37 -0800

Well Sydney Poitier is American if he's got American citizenship right? In any case, it seems like your professor (it seems odd to be talking about someone in absentia) should brush the chips off his shoulders and deal with more important issues. It seems like a very un-professor-like thing to say. Is this some sort of test? I really suck at tests. "Black" is sometimes used at a put-down around where I live...at least, I have heard it being used that way. So people who are aware of that and don't want to cause offense don't use it. "Fear" has nothing to do with it. I think some people use racial slurs out of fear and misunderstanding, though. Anyway, I would be interested to know what view you and your classmates have of your professor's ideas ProfLinusPauling.

By: owillis

owillis — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:43:21 -0800

Epidermal pigmentation is a pointless measure of anything That would be nice, but tell that to the white women who grab onto their purses when I enter an elevator.

By: lucien

lucien — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:44:22 -0800

Oh yes, and what is he professor of? What is his field? Just wondering.

By: Outlawyr

Outlawyr — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:51:58 -0800

I think white people should be called African American too. Then we'd all be the same race. Er, wait.

By: bittennails

bittennails — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:53:24 -0800

You are right zachsmind, and the more flavors the better. I needed to say that after being accused of racism on mefi yesterday. And on preview, owillis, there will always be some crazy like that one on the elevator, you should see the looks and behaviour around me after 9/11, I fit the profile beard et al.

By: Danelope

Danelope — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:54:01 -0800

That would be nice, but tell that to the white women who grab onto their purses when I enter an elevator. Oliver: I'm white and this happens to me all of the time. It grates on me whenever I see women, regardless of color, eye me uncomfortably whenever I stand behind them at an ATM or walk down the street in proximity to them for more than a moment.

By: mikhail

mikhail — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:02:52 -0800

That would be nice, but tell that to the white women who grab onto their purses when I enter an elevator. It is a shame that that sort of stereotypical reaction persists. We do it to ourselves by way of the uninformed generalizations we make about each other. And it's not unlike the looks and reactions I get in certain areas of the Bronx and Harlem. There are places all across the globe where the very color of our skin elicits a response. Often it comes down to what the color of our skin represents. And again, it's a shame we can't learn to get past the generalizations that are associated with skin color.

By: chuq

chuq — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:21:31 -0800

I usually use "black" because that's what the, uh, black people I know usually say. Same here. I also remember a black person from Britain (born and raised) who used to post on a Usenet newsgroup I once frequented who once said, "Don't fucking call me and African-American", and a black person from the Netherlands who concurred.

By: bunnyfire

bunnyfire — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 13:47:52 -0800

I think informally my black friends are just fine with being called "black". "African-American" gets trotted out for news stories and formal occasions. Truth be told, most of the time it isn't a big hairy deal-amongst friends, that is. Having been an actress in a number of racial reconciliation plays, I consider I have been close enough with folks that the barriers have come down, and many of these issues of race and color have been candidly discussed. When people are concerned about being treated with respect and with dignity, that is when they start being more picky with the words used to describe them. At least that is my humble opinion.

By: Su

Su — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 14:43:33 -0800

I agree with some of Faze's comments. Negro is a nicer word, but unfortunately from what I've seen, over time it has actually grown into the negative connotations that people assumed about it in the past. Even among blacks, I've seen it used sort of in the way a white person might have used "nigger" against them. I guess it's another example of them assimilating words, though it appears they took this one as-is. This is, of course, quite possibly regional. I was raised in the NorthEastern US.

By: riviera

riviera — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 14:58:55 -0800

Anyone born on American soil is American first and anything else remotely second. Says you. I'm sure that the diplomats whose kids are born in the US all agree with you wholeheartedly. Now that's what I call nationalistic arrogance.

By: bunnyfire

bunnyfire — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:10:28 -0800

Now that's what I call nationalistic arrogance. Riviera, I think you are purposely misreading his meaning. Of course we can agree that the diplomats' children are a case set apart. It helps if you put down the magnifying glass when you read metafilter. Cuts down on the eyestrain too- fewer headaches and all that. Now this Greek/english/heinz57/american is going to go surf the rest of the internet before she gets her Irish up...

By: kitschbitch

kitschbitch — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:43:12 -0800

A friend of mine is a black woman from Canada whose family is from Jamaica: it drives her up the wall when she's automatically described as an African-American, as though the term were interchangeable and just another synonym for black. It assumes nationality and heritage when it might not be the case at all - she's not African-American, she's Jamaican-Canadian. What really cracked me up was reading a review of the Harry Potter film in the San Francisco Chronicle online which observed that there was a fine "young African-American" actor as one of Harry's cronies. What he meant, of course, was that one of the actors was black - except that it was patently obvious that the actor in question was not American at all - but veddy, veddy English ;)

By: Oriole Adams

Oriole Adams — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 15:58:20 -0800

A few years ago, when WCHB-AM was still on the air in Detroit, it was strictly talk radio. Black talk radio, in fact....their promos would refer to the station as "The Black Giant", while the callers would most always use the term "African American." Sometimes they'd take the time to refer to White people as "European American", but I guess eventually that got too wordy, so during the course of the conversation it would revert back to "White." However, I noticed whenever there was a Black person with whom they disagreed (for example, then-Mayor Dennis Archer), they'd unfailingly refer to him as a "European Negro", as if being White was some type of insult. Do you think White DJ's could get away with similar commentary?

By: riviera

riviera — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 16:07:38 -0800

Of course we can agree that the diplomats' children are a case set apart. How about the kids of people on holiday? Of temp workers ? Green card holders? Do their parents have to regard their kids as 'Americans first and anything else remotely second'? I could probably expand the set of 'cases set apart' until the definition has more to do with the choices and passports of the parents than the accident of where you're born. Which shows that the original statement was bullshit. Anyway, Bill Hicks was right about patriotism: it's a round world last time I looked.

By: dwivian

dwivian — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 16:33:35 -0800

Sapphireblue: Hi, um? That was unnecessary. Not at all -- as a longterm Southerner (member of Southern Heritage Societies, born here, lived here all my life, never travelled outside of the South until my job required it, etc), I think I am somewhat qualified to discuss how people reacted to the transition from Colored (the polite word, when people were thoughtful enough to not use other terms) to Black. It was difficult for us to understand then, and is still difficult to understand now. We just don't get that, as I said before, naming something gives you a dominance over it. Self-naming is a strong statement of personal power, and it is understandable that the American Black would want to gain that power back over their life. The problem is that it is cultural nomenclature applied to racial identification, which leads people (like me, sheepishly) to identify anyone of dark skin tone as African American, even when they are neither African, nor American.

By: ProfLinusPauling

ProfLinusPauling — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 17:47:47 -0800

I find it very interesting how hostile this website can be. Sure I'm lazy, I posted a crappy link, what is it you want me to say? More than once, many people have reacted to my posts with snobbery. Go ahead and say it someone--that's because your posts are crap and you don't know what you're doing. Everyone's a comedian. I realize this is an open forum, be as rude to me as you want, I won't lose any sleep over it. However, I also think a lot of people at this site should realize that they are alienating a number of new-comers by reacting to certain less-than-fascinating posts with elitist attitudes. I posted the site because I thought it was an interesting issue. I'm sorry. I sinned, apparently. I am glad a lot of discussion has come out of my post, but I don't see why certain people get so annoyed when they see a crappy webpage. Apparently I am misusing the site. So I won't use it anymore.

By: ZachsMind

ZachsMind — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 17:56:34 -0800

I said, "Epidermal pigmentation is a pointless measure of anything:" OWillis: "That would be nice, but tell that to the white women who grab onto their purses when I enter an elevator." I have. Well not specifically to the women you have met in elevators perhaps, but people like them. It is. Did you steal a purse? No. So their measuring you by your epidermal pigmentatioin was a pointless measure, wasn't it? Just because there are still people doing it, doesn't make it any more valid a way to measure anything.

By: rodii

rodii — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 18:56:16 -0800

Sure I'm lazy, I posted a crappy link, what is it you want me to say? Calm down. Nobody's asking you to say anything, and nobody's being especially rude to you that I can see, except for Mikhail maybe. (Your professor, people seem to think he's a jackass, I'll grant you that.) If you admit you're lazy and posted a crappy link, well, really, what's your beef? Don't be lazy, don't post crappy links, and have discussions like this where they belong...and sorry that you're feeling picked on.

By: ProfLinusPauling

ProfLinusPauling — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 19:19:36 -0800

hey sylloge at least i figured out how to post an actual link this time right? good lord. this is exactly the sort of tedium i'm talking about. i might be an idiot, but im not mean (you can quote me on that one, cause it's juicy ain't it?). and now back to the actual metafiltering. it's strange this conversation is actually going on at all.

By: jpoulos

jpoulos — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 20:21:01 -0800

ProfLinusPauling: Please don't discuss it here, discuss it here.

By: aaron

aaron — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 20:22:31 -0800

I want to be known as a Candian-Canadian. Like Swedish Fish, but made in Winnipeg?

By: Nothing

Nothing — Fri, 29 Mar 2002 23:09:14 -0800

African-American, Black, Negro, it doesn't matter, eventually it will become a point of contention because the names, purposefully or not, imply that every black person is something different than every white person, more so than the differences within each group, and that's simply not true. Obviously we need to refer to people by color, it's an obvious feature and it makes it much easier to identify people in groups, but black, as it's used, isn't a color any more than African-American is a race. I think it would be great if people said things like "See the dark-brown woman over there?" and "The man in the corner, with black hair and light tan skin, he's the one." And black, when it was used, would mean black. Or perhaps the African, Asian, European thing would work. In either case, any naming scheme is going to have problems until we settle on one that's actually descriptive more than divisive.

By: sheauga

sheauga — Sat, 30 Mar 2002 06:27:32 -0800

The discussion on this thread says something about the posters' demographics and interests. "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner" was a groundbreaking movie. The fact that Poitier is Bahamian is relevant-- he really wasn't the stereotypical American Negro male of 1967. The fact that a younger generation would call him "African-American" in an attempt to conform with currently accepted usage is an indicator of how times have changed. We could have discussed Poitier in the context of Marcus Garvey's words, "The time has come for the Negro to forget and cast behind him his hero worship and adoration of other races, and to start out immediately, to create and emulate heroes of his own." We could have looked at Poitier's career and considered how the roles available to Black male actors have really opened up, making a few comparisons to the career of Halle Berry. Why was Poitier able to break in as a top leading man long before we got a top Black leading lady? We could have posted links to other Caribbean men who had an impact in the US, such as Harry Belefonte, Bob Marley, or Maurice Bishop, and shared our experiences on how the impact of racism is a little different for Americans with dual citizenship in places where Black people are not a minority. But we didn't, because these evidently weren't our issues.

By: riviera

riviera — Sat, 30 Mar 2002 06:58:24 -0800

Heh, sheauga. The Elvis factor.

By: bunnyfire

bunnyfire — Sat, 30 Mar 2002 08:56:24 -0800

What's Elvis got to do with it?