Superheroes and the armchair statistician
May 8, 2016 4:43 AM Subscribe
"The Hulk, an unstoppable force of nature, beats Falcon, a nice man who can fly, 98 percent of the time." FiveThirtyEight number crunches the odds of superhero match-ups.
Nice to see nerds being nerds, and that python line hit me hard enough to make me blush, personally, but I was a bit surprised that all this nifty analytic work was done based on the votes of web readers on who they believe would win.
I mean, in the fifty-plus years of who-knows-how-many-dozen books Marvel has cranked out per month since the 60's, pretty much every face-off that could happen must have "actually" happened at least once, and probably more than once. So we don't need opinions. We have actual data.
Hence, I expected this article and analysis to include work like "while Hulk famously trounced Iron Man in Super-Team Up #11, he was beaten on no less than seventeen other occasions..." not to mention some "Since Black Widow's win-loss vs Ant Man is 33:14, and Cap owned Natasha to the tune of 63:11 during their 70 years together, we can safely extrapolate that Captain America would best Ant Man at a ziggafoomorphically-adjusted* ratio of about 50:1, and that's the number we use in the table below."
Granted, that's a lot of actual data to collect and collate and such from a very very expensive collection of comic books, but, you know... it's fivethirtyeight. They actually do the hard work of counting things, not just ask people what they think the count would be, right?
(Sorry, my own nerd mask slipped off there for a moment.)
* Insert magic stats term here.
posted by rokusan at 5:02 AM on May 8, 2016 [17 favorites]
I mean, in the fifty-plus years of who-knows-how-many-dozen books Marvel has cranked out per month since the 60's, pretty much every face-off that could happen must have "actually" happened at least once, and probably more than once. So we don't need opinions. We have actual data.
Hence, I expected this article and analysis to include work like "while Hulk famously trounced Iron Man in Super-Team Up #11, he was beaten on no less than seventeen other occasions..." not to mention some "Since Black Widow's win-loss vs Ant Man is 33:14, and Cap owned Natasha to the tune of 63:11 during their 70 years together, we can safely extrapolate that Captain America would best Ant Man at a ziggafoomorphically-adjusted* ratio of about 50:1, and that's the number we use in the table below."
Granted, that's a lot of actual data to collect and collate and such from a very very expensive collection of comic books, but, you know... it's fivethirtyeight. They actually do the hard work of counting things, not just ask people what they think the count would be, right?
(Sorry, my own nerd mask slipped off there for a moment.)
* Insert magic stats term here.
posted by rokusan at 5:02 AM on May 8, 2016 [17 favorites]
Has a superhero ever been defeated by their evil twin, though...?
Obviously a tie for statistical purposes.
posted by rokusan at 5:04 AM on May 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Obviously a tie for statistical purposes.
posted by rokusan at 5:04 AM on May 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
MetaFilter: Nice to see nerds being nerds.
posted by Fizz at 5:14 AM on May 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Fizz at 5:14 AM on May 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
The most important thing I learned from this article is from the first footnote:
"Full disclosure: Both Marvel and FiveThirtyEight are owned by The Walt Disney Co."
posted by anotherpanacea at 5:22 AM on May 8, 2016 [16 favorites]
"Full disclosure: Both Marvel and FiveThirtyEight are owned by The Walt Disney Co."
posted by anotherpanacea at 5:22 AM on May 8, 2016 [16 favorites]
Squirrel Girl always wins.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 5:30 AM on May 8, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by 1970s Antihero at 5:30 AM on May 8, 2016 [18 favorites]
About thirty years ago, there was a post in rec.art.comics discussing "Jesus versus SpiderMan" which once and for all put that urgent question to rest. It depended entirely on logic and has really stood the test of time.
(MeMail me if you are interested and can't find it; I know I have it around somewhere.)
posted by wenestvedt at 5:47 AM on May 8, 2016
(MeMail me if you are interested and can't find it; I know I have it around somewhere.)
posted by wenestvedt at 5:47 AM on May 8, 2016
This is super cool, but I really hate who discussions of who would win in a fight cause really the odds are 50/50 and entirely dependant on editorial.
Especially because I'd focus less on how they've done against each other and more on their track record taking on big bads.
posted by KernalM at 5:55 AM on May 8, 2016
Especially because I'd focus less on how they've done against each other and more on their track record taking on big bads.
posted by KernalM at 5:55 AM on May 8, 2016
Superhero relative fame is unduly affecting this ranking.
Iron Man(4)'s really overrated in this list, particularly given War Machine(12)'s listed below both Winter Soldier and Black Widow, for goodness sake. (she's completely unpowered!) Sure, Tony's smarter, but being very clever alone doesn't justify that ranking. You're still just a guy in a metal suit. (though Tony's ability to call down the supplemental aids like Veronica and the Iron Legion does help, I suppose)
Captain America(6)'s also overrated, he's got the same super soldier serum as Winter Soldier(11), just without the PTSD.
Thor doesn't beat Hulk unless he somehow outsmarts him. Neither are particularly bright in the films. For brute slugging it's not even a contest.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:30 AM on May 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Iron Man(4)'s really overrated in this list, particularly given War Machine(12)'s listed below both Winter Soldier and Black Widow, for goodness sake. (she's completely unpowered!) Sure, Tony's smarter, but being very clever alone doesn't justify that ranking. You're still just a guy in a metal suit. (though Tony's ability to call down the supplemental aids like Veronica and the Iron Legion does help, I suppose)
Captain America(6)'s also overrated, he's got the same super soldier serum as Winter Soldier(11), just without the PTSD.
Thor doesn't beat Hulk unless he somehow outsmarts him. Neither are particularly bright in the films. For brute slugging it's not even a contest.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:30 AM on May 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Wait, they rank Team Iron Man ahead of Team Cap based on one-on-one matchups? Seriously? What's the point of having a team if you can't gang up? That is the reason they work together, right? Come on. Combo attacks are way more effective. Sure, Falcon is pretty weak, but if none of his opponents can fly he rules.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 6:38 AM on May 8, 2016
posted by GhostintheMachine at 6:38 AM on May 8, 2016
It's hard to derive meaningful data on power levels from these matchups, because who would win is not detemined by power alone -- if it were, these stories would just be rock-paper-scissors.
First of all, as a guy I follow on twitter pointed out, the Hulk is the strongest one there is. The Hulk tells us this all the time, and while the Hulk is confused about some stuff, he is not a liar. Further, the madder Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets. Hence, the Hulk starts out strongest, and gets even stronger than that. His strength may not be enough to defeat the Scarlet Witch -- whose ability to warp reality itself would, imo, make her victorious in most battles -- but when fighting Thor, a bruiser who basically punches his foes into unconsciousness, the contest must tilt Hulk. They have the same fighting style, but the Hulk hits harder. It's possible that Thor is more resistant to punishment and could outlast the Hulk, but the Hulk is demonstrably invulnerable to most weapons, so one must presume the Hulk is a stamina dude, too.
But this doesn't necessarily mean the Hulk defeats brilliant scientific minds like Black Panther or Iron Man, who given enough time might be able to devise means of winning the battle that don't involve throwing punches -- some device that negates the gamma energy in Hulk's body, maybe, or perhaps just some fast-acting mood stabilizer that makes the Hulk feel so at peace that he stops being mad at all and turns back into Bruce Banner.
There's also a character's morality to consider. War Machine could probably defeat at least half of these characters by rail-gunning them to death. But he wouldn't do that. By choosing to engage non-lethal means of winning the fight, he gives his opponents the chance to defeat him by subtler methods. And considering the example of War Machine, there's also characters' relationships to keep in mind: No matter how much more badass War Machine may be than Iron Man as a combatant, ultimately Iron Man will always best War Machine because Iron Man built War Machine's armor and there is NO WAY Iron Man did not build in the ability for himself to shut down the War Machine suit remotely.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:38 AM on May 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
First of all, as a guy I follow on twitter pointed out, the Hulk is the strongest one there is. The Hulk tells us this all the time, and while the Hulk is confused about some stuff, he is not a liar. Further, the madder Hulk gets, the stronger Hulk gets. Hence, the Hulk starts out strongest, and gets even stronger than that. His strength may not be enough to defeat the Scarlet Witch -- whose ability to warp reality itself would, imo, make her victorious in most battles -- but when fighting Thor, a bruiser who basically punches his foes into unconsciousness, the contest must tilt Hulk. They have the same fighting style, but the Hulk hits harder. It's possible that Thor is more resistant to punishment and could outlast the Hulk, but the Hulk is demonstrably invulnerable to most weapons, so one must presume the Hulk is a stamina dude, too.
But this doesn't necessarily mean the Hulk defeats brilliant scientific minds like Black Panther or Iron Man, who given enough time might be able to devise means of winning the battle that don't involve throwing punches -- some device that negates the gamma energy in Hulk's body, maybe, or perhaps just some fast-acting mood stabilizer that makes the Hulk feel so at peace that he stops being mad at all and turns back into Bruce Banner.
There's also a character's morality to consider. War Machine could probably defeat at least half of these characters by rail-gunning them to death. But he wouldn't do that. By choosing to engage non-lethal means of winning the fight, he gives his opponents the chance to defeat him by subtler methods. And considering the example of War Machine, there's also characters' relationships to keep in mind: No matter how much more badass War Machine may be than Iron Man as a combatant, ultimately Iron Man will always best War Machine because Iron Man built War Machine's armor and there is NO WAY Iron Man did not build in the ability for himself to shut down the War Machine suit remotely.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:38 AM on May 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
How does War Machine fall into the "nice guy who's good at one thing" tier when he's a dude in a suit, just like Iron Man? Iron Man probably wins in a fight, but it's not THAT different.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:41 AM on May 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:41 AM on May 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Here's a better listing:
I. Supernatural/God-like/God
Scarlet Witch
Hulk
Thor
Vision
II. Enhanced
Spiderman (nuclear spider)
Captain America (super soldier serum)
Black Panther (panther god)
Winter Soldier (super soldier serum)
III. Normal Folk with Gadgetry
Iron Man
War Machine
Ant Man
Falcon
IV. Unpowered
Black Widow
Hawkeye
Ranking is within tier and between tier. Spidey beats Cap because they're both enhanced humans, but Spidey can also climb (van der) walls (I'm assuming mechanical shooters). Each tier beats the one below it, with the gadgetry being a modifier depending upon circumstances. Tony's much stronger than Cap in the suit, and he can fly. But he needs the suit. Without the suit he's just a genius billionaire playboy philanthropist. Enhanced folk have enhanced reaction time, and that counts for a lot.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:43 AM on May 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
I. Supernatural/God-like/God
Scarlet Witch
Hulk
Thor
Vision
II. Enhanced
Spiderman (nuclear spider)
Captain America (super soldier serum)
Black Panther (panther god)
Winter Soldier (super soldier serum)
III. Normal Folk with Gadgetry
Iron Man
War Machine
Ant Man
Falcon
IV. Unpowered
Black Widow
Hawkeye
Ranking is within tier and between tier. Spidey beats Cap because they're both enhanced humans, but Spidey can also climb (van der) walls (I'm assuming mechanical shooters). Each tier beats the one below it, with the gadgetry being a modifier depending upon circumstances. Tony's much stronger than Cap in the suit, and he can fly. But he needs the suit. Without the suit he's just a genius billionaire playboy philanthropist. Enhanced folk have enhanced reaction time, and that counts for a lot.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:43 AM on May 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
> post in rec.art.comics discussing "Jesus versus SpiderMan"
Is it this one?
(Oh man, now I am having Suicide Squid flashbacks.)
posted by needled at 6:48 AM on May 8, 2016
Is it this one?
(Oh man, now I am having Suicide Squid flashbacks.)
posted by needled at 6:48 AM on May 8, 2016
Jesus has healing, transmutation, and respawn; that's a pretty powerful combo.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:51 AM on May 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by leotrotsky at 6:51 AM on May 8, 2016 [13 favorites]
How does War Machine fall into the "nice guy who's good at one thing" tier when he's a dude in a suit, just like Iron Man? Iron Man probably wins in a fight, but it's not THAT different.
I'm trying to convince myself that this is because Iron Man is the original character and not just, y'know, an unfortunate fanboy race thing.
posted by HeroZero at 7:08 AM on May 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm trying to convince myself that this is because Iron Man is the original character and not just, y'know, an unfortunate fanboy race thing.
posted by HeroZero at 7:08 AM on May 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
"I spent two hours writing the simulation out in Python because I have completely lost control of my life."
What kind of life must you lead that spending a mere two hours on a silly programming task seems BEYOND THE PALE?
posted by GameDesignerBen at 7:20 AM on May 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
What kind of life must you lead that spending a mere two hours on a silly programming task seems BEYOND THE PALE?
posted by GameDesignerBen at 7:20 AM on May 8, 2016 [6 favorites]
How does War Machine fall into the "nice guy who's good at one thing" tier when he's a dude in a suit, just like Iron Man? Iron Man probably wins in a fight, but it's not THAT different.
I'm trying to convince myself that this is because Iron Man is the original character and not just, y'know, an unfortunate fanboy race thing.
I look at it sort of like this: imagine the world's best car mechanic who is also an amateur racer builds two identical race cars and then invites a pro F1 driver to race against him. The pro driver wins every time.
Now, say they agree to a second race a couple of months down the road, and they are each free to spend that time tinkering with their cars. The F1 driver is probably best off if he doesn't touch his at all, while the mechanic will find all kinds of little ways to improve his. It's anyone's guess who wins the second race.
So yeah, I think Iron Man vs War Machine is a toss-up just because, even though War Machine has better skills and aptitudes for using the suit, Tony is always tinkering and who knows what tricks he has up his sleeve. And while he may periodically update War Machine's suit with new gadgets, you just know Tony is the type of guy to always make sure his toy is a little bit better.
posted by 256 at 7:44 AM on May 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm trying to convince myself that this is because Iron Man is the original character and not just, y'know, an unfortunate fanboy race thing.
I look at it sort of like this: imagine the world's best car mechanic who is also an amateur racer builds two identical race cars and then invites a pro F1 driver to race against him. The pro driver wins every time.
Now, say they agree to a second race a couple of months down the road, and they are each free to spend that time tinkering with their cars. The F1 driver is probably best off if he doesn't touch his at all, while the mechanic will find all kinds of little ways to improve his. It's anyone's guess who wins the second race.
So yeah, I think Iron Man vs War Machine is a toss-up just because, even though War Machine has better skills and aptitudes for using the suit, Tony is always tinkering and who knows what tricks he has up his sleeve. And while he may periodically update War Machine's suit with new gadgets, you just know Tony is the type of guy to always make sure his toy is a little bit better.
posted by 256 at 7:44 AM on May 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
People seem to be making the mistake that 616 performance and power levels equal MCU power levels. This is categorically false especially since the MCU universe is more closely modeled on a 1610 universe minus you know the FF and those filthy muties (Quicksilver and Wanda excluded of course).
Obviously the Vision got powered down by editorial fiat between Avengers 2 and Civil War the Russos just decided to handle it off screen.
I do object to war machine being dogged by these rankings because he's basically Black Iron Man minus quips plus actual military training.
That and unlike 616 Falcon who is plagued by decades of poor showings the MCU Falcon has sime power ups plus an advanced drone instead of a lame telepathic falcon.
posted by vuron at 8:00 AM on May 8, 2016
Obviously the Vision got powered down by editorial fiat between Avengers 2 and Civil War the Russos just decided to handle it off screen.
I do object to war machine being dogged by these rankings because he's basically Black Iron Man minus quips plus actual military training.
That and unlike 616 Falcon who is plagued by decades of poor showings the MCU Falcon has sime power ups plus an advanced drone instead of a lame telepathic falcon.
posted by vuron at 8:00 AM on May 8, 2016
All things depend on circumstances. I have an old annual in which Hawkeye defeats She-Hulk solo, for instance, AFTER She-Hulk starts the fight by crunching his bow to splinters and busting most of his arrows. Spider-Man, in one celebrated instance, KOed Firelord, a former Herald of Galactus (which, for the uninitiated, translates to 'should hand Thor his ass on a platter). I'm not familiar enough with Movie Scarlet Witch to know where she is on her power scale; she's gone anywhere from "makes weird things happen and even she's not sure what when she casts" to "causes weird things to have been retroactively true all along" to "hi I just rewrote the universe and raised the dead," but she's still a glass cannon that one stray shot can down.
As always, my money's on Frog Thor.
posted by delfin at 8:04 AM on May 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
As always, my money's on Frog Thor.
posted by delfin at 8:04 AM on May 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
That and Black Panther is basically Black Batman so he can basically beat anyone given enough prep time.
posted by vuron at 8:10 AM on May 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by vuron at 8:10 AM on May 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, it's pretty much comics canon that Tony always uses the cutting edge, no matter what, and plus (and this is probably true for movie canon as well) Tony would probably have a secret override built into Rhodey's suit, in the movies after IM2. If Tony built a suit for every member of the Avengers--which was done in a What If? way back when and seems like a logical thing, if the Avengers are back together again, for the Infinity Wars movies--he'd have similar fail-safes. And, following on what 256 said, it's also logical that Tony could probably hack his and others' suits in action if he needed to.
There was a tradition in the Cold War days of the Russians putting together an exoskeleton-clad champion of their own, various versions of the Crimson Dynamo and Titanium Man (further memorialized in, of all things, a Paul McCartney and Wings song), who were usually physically much larger than IM, in the manner of super-sized Soviet weapons such as the Caspian Sea Monster and the Tsar Bomba, but were usually defeated by plain ol' Yankee know-how. (Stan Lee was not particularly sophisticated in his anti-Red propagandizing, something that The Man himself admitted when he covered IM in his Origins of Marvel Comics series.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:13 AM on May 8, 2016
There was a tradition in the Cold War days of the Russians putting together an exoskeleton-clad champion of their own, various versions of the Crimson Dynamo and Titanium Man (further memorialized in, of all things, a Paul McCartney and Wings song), who were usually physically much larger than IM, in the manner of super-sized Soviet weapons such as the Caspian Sea Monster and the Tsar Bomba, but were usually defeated by plain ol' Yankee know-how. (Stan Lee was not particularly sophisticated in his anti-Red propagandizing, something that The Man himself admitted when he covered IM in his Origins of Marvel Comics series.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:13 AM on May 8, 2016
> ... "Black Widow, for goodness sake. (she's completely unpowered!)"
> "IV. Unpowered: Black Widow, Hawkeye"
Wow, you people are laughably underestimating Black Widow.
posted by kyrademon at 8:20 AM on May 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
> "IV. Unpowered: Black Widow, Hawkeye"
Wow, you people are laughably underestimating Black Widow.
posted by kyrademon at 8:20 AM on May 8, 2016 [4 favorites]
Is Black Widow even a regular human in the MCU?
They haven't really detailed the red room treatment process but it stands to reason that it creates meta humans in a similar manner to the super soldier serum.
Both the widow and Dottie Underwood are clearly enhanced in some way.
posted by vuron at 8:33 AM on May 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
They haven't really detailed the red room treatment process but it stands to reason that it creates meta humans in a similar manner to the super soldier serum.
Both the widow and Dottie Underwood are clearly enhanced in some way.
posted by vuron at 8:33 AM on May 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
Spider-Man always, always wins... as long as Peter Parker loses. It's an iron - clad law of Marvel universe physics.
posted by underflow at 8:35 AM on May 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by underflow at 8:35 AM on May 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
Isn't Red Room just brainwashing? There's no evidence of enhancement that they've shown so far. Wouldn't Peggy be outmatched if Dottie was enhanced?
posted by leotrotsky at 8:40 AM on May 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by leotrotsky at 8:40 AM on May 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Wow, you people are laughably underestimating Black Widow.
Saying she's unlikely to triumph in a punching match with friggin War Machine is underestimating her? How exactly do you see that playing out?
posted by leotrotsky at 8:45 AM on May 8, 2016
Saying she's unlikely to triumph in a punching match with friggin War Machine is underestimating her? How exactly do you see that playing out?
posted by leotrotsky at 8:45 AM on May 8, 2016
How exactly do you see that playing out?
She probably installed something long in the suit's software that can take him out or least pause him long enough for her to get in a couple of good shots.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:48 AM on May 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
She probably installed something long in the suit's software that can take him out or least pause him long enough for her to get in a couple of good shots.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:48 AM on May 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
No one said it had to be a straight-up punching match, and if you're rating them in terms of tactical thinking, I think I'd put her at the top, followed by Steve Rogers.
Most of the time, I think she'd have beaten War Machine before the fight even starts. If he gets the drop on her in a surprise attack or something, then sure, I think he'd be more likely to win.
But in terms of "in situations where War Machine and Black Widow are fighting in some way for some reason, which would win?" I'd say yes, Black Widow would likely win more often.
posted by kyrademon at 8:49 AM on May 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Most of the time, I think she'd have beaten War Machine before the fight even starts. If he gets the drop on her in a surprise attack or something, then sure, I think he'd be more likely to win.
But in terms of "in situations where War Machine and Black Widow are fighting in some way for some reason, which would win?" I'd say yes, Black Widow would likely win more often.
posted by kyrademon at 8:49 AM on May 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
That actually works pretty well in-universe, since SHIELD inserted her into Stark Industries circa IM2. She'd have access.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:52 AM on May 8, 2016
posted by leotrotsky at 8:52 AM on May 8, 2016
Come to think of it, I'm pretty sure being massively underestimated is part of her skillset.
posted by kyrademon at 8:54 AM on May 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by kyrademon at 8:54 AM on May 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
...like with Loki.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:57 AM on May 8, 2016
posted by leotrotsky at 8:57 AM on May 8, 2016
Black Widow's powers and abilities, comics version.
Black Widow's powers and abilities, movie version. (scroll down for abilities list).
The major common trait between both versions is "... the ability to quickly process multiple information streams (e.g., threat assessment) and rapidly respond to changing tactical situations" which is something she shares with Captain America. She's also a gifted hacker, which puts War Machine at major risk.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:57 AM on May 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Black Widow's powers and abilities, movie version. (scroll down for abilities list).
The major common trait between both versions is "... the ability to quickly process multiple information streams (e.g., threat assessment) and rapidly respond to changing tactical situations" which is something she shares with Captain America. She's also a gifted hacker, which puts War Machine at major risk.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:57 AM on May 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
In situations in which Black Widow has a strategic objective to accomplish, such as "gain access to Document A in Building B that War Machine is currently guarding," or "keep War Machine occupied until Teammate C can do something useful behind him," or "surreptitiously sneak into War Machine's HQ and plant a gadget in his armor that will freeze it up at a critical moment or transmit its specs to SHIELD scientists or something," or "be far away from the battlefield and banging on a computer keyboard, rewriting War Machine's BIOS with that of a Samsung Galaxy Tab 4," yes, I give Widow a very strong chance.
In situations in which Black Widow hasn't spent the last two weeks Batmanning up five contingency plans on how to take War Machine down, and she is instead running straight at him across a wide-open airport tarmac hoping to take down a Stark-designed armored suit with martial arts and electric shock gadgets, pardon me if I'm not as optimistic. She is a gifted hacker; that does not include the power to stare at a suit of armor from 30 feet away and rewrite its subroutines through psychic willpower so that when Rhodey tries to blast her, little flags that say BANG! come out of his palms instead.
She is very good at what she does. Direct frontal assaults against massive powerhouses are, generally speaking, not what she does.
posted by delfin at 9:07 AM on May 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
In situations in which Black Widow hasn't spent the last two weeks Batmanning up five contingency plans on how to take War Machine down, and she is instead running straight at him across a wide-open airport tarmac hoping to take down a Stark-designed armored suit with martial arts and electric shock gadgets, pardon me if I'm not as optimistic. She is a gifted hacker; that does not include the power to stare at a suit of armor from 30 feet away and rewrite its subroutines through psychic willpower so that when Rhodey tries to blast her, little flags that say BANG! come out of his palms instead.
She is very good at what she does. Direct frontal assaults against massive powerhouses are, generally speaking, not what she does.
posted by delfin at 9:07 AM on May 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've always been disappointed by the fact that the "Superman vs. Goku" fight was never resolved. (Superman and Goku were both defeated by a server crash.)
And WWWF never did that one at all.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 9:10 AM on May 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
And WWWF never did that one at all.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 9:10 AM on May 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
You can argue that War Machine gets beat by Iron Man, but to rank him in the unpowered tier? That's crazy.
posted by Apocryphon at 9:19 AM on May 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Apocryphon at 9:19 AM on May 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
In situations in which Black Widow hasn't spent the last two weeks Batmanning up five contingency plans on how to take War Machine down, and she is instead running straight at him across a wide-open airport tarmac hoping to take down a Stark-designed armored suit with martial arts and electric shock gadgets, pardon me if I'm not as optimistic.
I think you're missing the point. Black Widow doesn't wait until the tarmac scene, she's would have already thought about to take down X, Y and Z long before then. In Age of Ultron, she had guns stored all around the party where Ultron appeared, just in case something popped up. Is she undefeatable? No, of course not. But I think the character is very aware of her on vulnerabilities and regularly takes steps to leverage her strengths in any situation.
Besides, she and War Machine were on the same side in the movie, so she doesn't need to take him down there.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:19 AM on May 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think you're missing the point. Black Widow doesn't wait until the tarmac scene, she's would have already thought about to take down X, Y and Z long before then. In Age of Ultron, she had guns stored all around the party where Ultron appeared, just in case something popped up. Is she undefeatable? No, of course not. But I think the character is very aware of her on vulnerabilities and regularly takes steps to leverage her strengths in any situation.
Besides, she and War Machine were on the same side in the movie, so she doesn't need to take him down there.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:19 AM on May 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Never assume that you know what side Natasha is on. Just assume that everything you have is compromised and start rebuilding, once you've accounted for the three bugs in your facilities that you haven't found yet.
posted by delfin at 9:33 AM on May 8, 2016
posted by delfin at 9:33 AM on May 8, 2016
HULK ALWAYS WIN. HULK SMASH 538!
posted by Splunge at 9:34 AM on May 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Splunge at 9:34 AM on May 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Required in any analysis: Cap can overcome any odds.
That's his superpower. Everything else is window-dressing.
Admittedly, that's the basic power of basically every fictional hero, but in terms of Marvel anyone betting against Captain America is plainly making an immense mistake.
(The only exception that overrides Cap is Squirrel Girl. As mentioned above, Squirrel Girl is unbeatable. That's her thing.)
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:09 AM on May 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
That's his superpower. Everything else is window-dressing.
Admittedly, that's the basic power of basically every fictional hero, but in terms of Marvel anyone betting against Captain America is plainly making an immense mistake.
(The only exception that overrides Cap is Squirrel Girl. As mentioned above, Squirrel Girl is unbeatable. That's her thing.)
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:09 AM on May 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
Just assume that everything you have is compromised and start rebuilding, once you've accounted for the three bugs in your facilities that you haven't found yet.
Huh, interesting. The digital age and her hacking skills give her such an edge. Defeating her is certainly possible, but it depends on the specific situation. If War Machine simply rained down a ton of missiles, it's certainly likely he'd kill her, but the heroes usually don't want to kill each other.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:10 AM on May 8, 2016
Huh, interesting. The digital age and her hacking skills give her such an edge. Defeating her is certainly possible, but it depends on the specific situation. If War Machine simply rained down a ton of missiles, it's certainly likely he'd kill her, but the heroes usually don't want to kill each other.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:10 AM on May 8, 2016
I love how real-time hacking in combat is a legitimate movie hero ability.
posted by benzenedream at 12:35 PM on May 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by benzenedream at 12:35 PM on May 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
This is all wrong!
Obviously Hulk is the weakest. His favorite word "smash" gets a mere ten points. Thirty points with a triple word score. Not far behind is Thor, whose old English sounds fancy but masks a narrow and limited vocabulary. Look for him to cheat by adding "-eth" to all his verbs, a sneaky way to winneth.
The Vision doesn't say much at all, and frankly I question his drive or passion. Can you picture him dancing around the room after putting down a seven-tile word beginning with "Q"? Me neither.
If we're talking tops in the league. I would say start with Spidey and Iron Man, both of them talky-types. Black Panther's probably no slouch either.
posted by storybored at 12:58 PM on May 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
Obviously Hulk is the weakest. His favorite word "smash" gets a mere ten points. Thirty points with a triple word score. Not far behind is Thor, whose old English sounds fancy but masks a narrow and limited vocabulary. Look for him to cheat by adding "-eth" to all his verbs, a sneaky way to winneth.
The Vision doesn't say much at all, and frankly I question his drive or passion. Can you picture him dancing around the room after putting down a seven-tile word beginning with "Q"? Me neither.
If we're talking tops in the league. I would say start with Spidey and Iron Man, both of them talky-types. Black Panther's probably no slouch either.
posted by storybored at 12:58 PM on May 8, 2016 [5 favorites]
The matchup that seems skewed to me is Black Panther vs. Iron Man. I'm pretty sure I've read that, and Tony got his ass handed to him. Here's a page.
posted by knuckle tattoos at 1:30 PM on May 8, 2016
posted by knuckle tattoos at 1:30 PM on May 8, 2016
I don't like seeing Thor characterized as just a brawler. He understands Asgard tech, which is far beyond Earth's. As Odin's muscle I think he just got used to relying on his strength and hammer but then again, he's also Odin's general. He knows strategy and tactics. I doubt if we'll ever see that in the movies because hell, it's fun watching Hemsworth beat shit up.
posted by Ber at 1:38 PM on May 8, 2016
posted by Ber at 1:38 PM on May 8, 2016
I don't really care about superheros but the link in the footnotes about America's best burrito is making me hungry!
Also Batman would beat all of them. Just sayin.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 2:42 PM on May 8, 2016
Also Batman would beat all of them. Just sayin.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 2:42 PM on May 8, 2016
uncomplicated soups: you raise an interesting question: which Avenger would win in a bakeoff? Which member of Justice League is the best chef?
posted by LeRoienJaune at 2:52 PM on May 8, 2016
posted by LeRoienJaune at 2:52 PM on May 8, 2016
Vision, obviously. Attention to detail, endless patience, and superhuman senses. That android has never had a soufflé fall. Pinch of Paprika, indeed.
As an aside, what the hell kind of paprikash only uses a pinch? You'll need at least a tablespoon. So unrealistic.
posted by leotrotsky at 3:10 PM on May 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
As an aside, what the hell kind of paprikash only uses a pinch? You'll need at least a tablespoon. So unrealistic.
posted by leotrotsky at 3:10 PM on May 8, 2016 [3 favorites]
OMG get out of my room! Can't you read the sign!? Moooommmm!
posted by leotrotsky at 3:15 PM on May 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by leotrotsky at 3:15 PM on May 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well... Not to make too fine a point of it. The Hulk can be infinitely strong. The more angry he gets, the stronger he gets. As well, Hulk can get out of Banner faster than he can even kill himself. It is canon that Banner has tried to blow his own brains out and failed.
So. Thor isn't so much a god as much as a godlike alien. His powers, while great, are finite.
The Hulk, when put to the test, can destroy any other superhero.
posted by Splunge at 4:10 PM on May 8, 2016
So. Thor isn't so much a god as much as a godlike alien. His powers, while great, are finite.
The Hulk, when put to the test, can destroy any other superhero.
posted by Splunge at 4:10 PM on May 8, 2016
The Hulk, when put to the test, can destroy any other superhero.
Black Widow can convince Hulk to convert to Banner and then put a bullet in the back of his head.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:21 PM on May 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Black Widow can convince Hulk to convert to Banner and then put a bullet in the back of his head.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:21 PM on May 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
> "Vision, obviously. Attention to detail, endless patience, and superhuman senses."
You have obviously never savored the empyrean flavor of a frittata roasted in the Asgardian oven of the God of Thunder.
posted by kyrademon at 4:24 PM on May 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
You have obviously never savored the empyrean flavor of a frittata roasted in the Asgardian oven of the God of Thunder.
posted by kyrademon at 4:24 PM on May 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
In the Ultimate universe, Banner had a nuke dropped on him while restrained and presumably sedated. He Hulked up at the last moment and survived, but I don't think he was aware that he was being nuked. He later laments the fact that the Hulk won't let him die, so it's probably an involuntary defense mechanism of his to Hulk up to survive.
posted by Splunge at 4:31 PM on May 8, 2016
posted by Splunge at 4:31 PM on May 8, 2016
Meh, a bullet in the back of Banner's would kill hin quicker than any hulking out. Either that or feed Banner sleeping gas around bedtime.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:41 PM on May 8, 2016
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:41 PM on May 8, 2016
A bit of research indicates that, ignoring What Ifs and alternate universes and suchlike, heroes who have killed The Hulk include Thor, and Cable and Storm working together (which probably shouldn't count). The Silver Surfer killed The Hulk but not Bruce Banner.
Deadpool and Old Man Logan have done it in alternate universes (and probably there are others who have done it in alternate universes as well, but really these probably shouldn't count either).
posted by kyrademon at 5:00 PM on May 8, 2016
Deadpool and Old Man Logan have done it in alternate universes (and probably there are others who have done it in alternate universes as well, but really these probably shouldn't count either).
posted by kyrademon at 5:00 PM on May 8, 2016
GIGO
The underlying ranking is flawed, ignores canon sources, and doesn't even bother with the Marvel Power Grid.
Like, since the guy they brought in for the power rankings has also done basketball, there's an easy analogy: Every year, hundreds of thousands of people guess who would win in the NCAA tournament. I don't know what the average bracket looks like in terms of accuracy, but I do know that the expert predictions usually come in about 30-50%. If, instead of looking at actual games, the NCAA outcome was predicted by asking people who they thought would win, there'd be no way that saying i.e. Duke has a 4-1 against chance for taking the championship.
I have found my trigger: Shallow opinions about relative powers of superheroes.
posted by klangklangston at 7:47 PM on May 8, 2016
The underlying ranking is flawed, ignores canon sources, and doesn't even bother with the Marvel Power Grid.
Like, since the guy they brought in for the power rankings has also done basketball, there's an easy analogy: Every year, hundreds of thousands of people guess who would win in the NCAA tournament. I don't know what the average bracket looks like in terms of accuracy, but I do know that the expert predictions usually come in about 30-50%. If, instead of looking at actual games, the NCAA outcome was predicted by asking people who they thought would win, there'd be no way that saying i.e. Duke has a 4-1 against chance for taking the championship.
I have found my trigger: Shallow opinions about relative powers of superheroes.
posted by klangklangston at 7:47 PM on May 8, 2016
The Hulk can be infinitely strong.... The Hulk, when put to the test, can destroy any other superhero.
Strength trumps all? Have you ever read basically any comic book?
posted by Etrigan at 7:52 PM on May 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Strength trumps all? Have you ever read basically any comic book?
posted by Etrigan at 7:52 PM on May 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Has a superhero ever been defeated by their evil twin, though...?
The Justice League were defeated by their evil counterparts from Earth-3, the Crime Syndicate, back in the Silver Age. (The Crime Syndicate was then defeated by the Justice Society of Earth-2, and were banished to the vibratory space between the parallel universes.)
posted by pattern juggler at 12:25 AM on May 9, 2016
The Justice League were defeated by their evil counterparts from Earth-3, the Crime Syndicate, back in the Silver Age. (The Crime Syndicate was then defeated by the Justice Society of Earth-2, and were banished to the vibratory space between the parallel universes.)
posted by pattern juggler at 12:25 AM on May 9, 2016
"Jesus versus Spider-Man"
FTFY
/nerd out
I think I've mentioned before that I was on the parliamentary debate circuit in undergrad. The league is, uh, kind of the polar opposite of those crazy policy leagues where teams drag giant storage bins of primary sources into rounds. Parli is more on the "let's talk about this thing in broad terms, because no one cares exactly how much money the IMF gave to Sierra Leone last year, we just care about how things are going." In the northeast United States, you don't even have to argue about serious things--you can also present crazy cases and argue them with a straight face.
All of this to say, one Friday night in 2004, the tournament admins were running really slow, so the third round didn't start until 9:30. My partner and I had been traveling all day, had been thumped pretty badly in round 2 so we weren't competitive in the tournament, and had pretty much checked out of it and wanted to go to the bar across the street. So when we got chosen to present the case in round 3, we ran "Who would win in a fight, Batman or Jesus?" The other team took Jesus, clearly wanting to dicker over the meaning of "win." So, as the hour grew late and the time ticked down and we wanted this damned spectacle to be over with as soon as humanly possible, I rambled on for eight glorious minutes about Batman's dedication to preparation, his amazing physical prowess, and the various ways his utility belt could be used to incapacitate the son of God.
We didn't get invited back to that tournament the next year.
posted by Mayor West at 4:49 AM on May 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
Hell, I'd invite you to my house if you're going to argue stuff like that!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:37 AM on May 9, 2016
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:37 AM on May 9, 2016
How does War Machine fall into the "nice guy who's good at one thing" tier when he's a dude in a suit, just like Iron Man? Iron Man probably wins in a fight, but it's not THAT different.
War Machine is a dude in a suit made by someone else and when he tried to have his suit upgraded it was by HammerTech. Tony Stark is a man who made his first Iron Man suit while locked up in a cave with a box of scraps, has created dozens of Iron Man suits (many for different purposes), and can on the fly use the physical properties of his opponent's suit (such as the cooling problem in IM1).
Give James Rhodes a conventional problem using the conventional capabilities of the suit and he's probably significantly faster and more efficient than Tony Stark at solving it - but those are fights where the question is not whether the person in the tin can will win, but by how much. Dealing with outside context problems and overwhelming foes on the other hand, War Machine doesn't even understand the full capabilities of his suit. Iron Man understands his suit better, has made literally dozens of others, many for specialised purposes, and when push comes to shove is only one step short of bounce a tachyon particle beam off the main deflector dish.
In short it's a curb stomp even without overrides unless you restrict things to arena combat. War Machine's abilities in a superpowered brawl are defined by the hardware he wears. Iron Man on the other hand is simply an expression of Tony Stark's powers (and the whole point of IM3 is that Tony is not simply Iron Man).
(That said, there is a personal issue in a lot of these matchps. I'd expect Natasha Romanov to roll Tony Stark nine times out of ten outside a simple arena situation* but to have to actually work against James Rhodes. She'd also basically bounce off Steve Rogers if she ever had to go up against him** although ironically she'd do disproportionately well in an arena against Steve).
* And this applies in both his stories and hers. Unless she's going after bait he's set.
** As Winter Soldier proved she works a lot better with Cap in a mismatched-buddy-cop situation.
posted by Francis at 7:31 AM on May 9, 2016
War Machine is a dude in a suit made by someone else and when he tried to have his suit upgraded it was by HammerTech. Tony Stark is a man who made his first Iron Man suit while locked up in a cave with a box of scraps, has created dozens of Iron Man suits (many for different purposes), and can on the fly use the physical properties of his opponent's suit (such as the cooling problem in IM1).
Give James Rhodes a conventional problem using the conventional capabilities of the suit and he's probably significantly faster and more efficient than Tony Stark at solving it - but those are fights where the question is not whether the person in the tin can will win, but by how much. Dealing with outside context problems and overwhelming foes on the other hand, War Machine doesn't even understand the full capabilities of his suit. Iron Man understands his suit better, has made literally dozens of others, many for specialised purposes, and when push comes to shove is only one step short of bounce a tachyon particle beam off the main deflector dish.
In short it's a curb stomp even without overrides unless you restrict things to arena combat. War Machine's abilities in a superpowered brawl are defined by the hardware he wears. Iron Man on the other hand is simply an expression of Tony Stark's powers (and the whole point of IM3 is that Tony is not simply Iron Man).
(That said, there is a personal issue in a lot of these matchps. I'd expect Natasha Romanov to roll Tony Stark nine times out of ten outside a simple arena situation* but to have to actually work against James Rhodes. She'd also basically bounce off Steve Rogers if she ever had to go up against him** although ironically she'd do disproportionately well in an arena against Steve).
* And this applies in both his stories and hers. Unless she's going after bait he's set.
** As Winter Soldier proved she works a lot better with Cap in a mismatched-buddy-cop situation.
posted by Francis at 7:31 AM on May 9, 2016
My money's on Frog Thor
He does have nearly unmatched burninating powers.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 9:10 AM on May 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
He does have nearly unmatched burninating powers.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 9:10 AM on May 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
Has a superhero ever been defeated by their evil twin, though...?
Now, now. Perfectly symmetrical violence never solved anything.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 11:35 AM on May 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
Now, now. Perfectly symmetrical violence never solved anything.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 11:35 AM on May 9, 2016 [3 favorites]
" Iron Man understands his suit better, has made literally dozens of others, many for specialised purposes, and when push comes to shove is only one step short of bounce a tachyon particle beam off the main deflector dish."
But he can't beat alcoholism. However, my dentist had a Power Pack issue where they did, so clearly the Power Pack could beat Iron Man.
I am just deeply sad that no nerd in the history of the internet has bothered to catalog all of the hero vs. hero fights in either DC or Marvel, with a simple issue, who won, and whether there were extenuating circumstances (e.g., Hulk beats Wolverine in Wolverine's first appearance by knocking him out, but IIRC it was accidental and after they had nominally joined forces).
posted by klangklangston at 2:22 PM on May 9, 2016
But he can't beat alcoholism. However, my dentist had a Power Pack issue where they did, so clearly the Power Pack could beat Iron Man.
I am just deeply sad that no nerd in the history of the internet has bothered to catalog all of the hero vs. hero fights in either DC or Marvel, with a simple issue, who won, and whether there were extenuating circumstances (e.g., Hulk beats Wolverine in Wolverine's first appearance by knocking him out, but IIRC it was accidental and after they had nominally joined forces).
posted by klangklangston at 2:22 PM on May 9, 2016
The Justice League were defeated by their evil counterparts from Earth-3, the Crime Syndicate, back in the Silver Age. (The Crime Syndicate was then defeated by the Justice Society of Earth-2, and were banished to the vibratory space between the parallel universes.)
"vibratory" is not a word that comes up very often so it sort of took a moment to process that it wasn't referring to me.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 11:27 PM on May 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
"vibratory" is not a word that comes up very often so it sort of took a moment to process that it wasn't referring to me.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 11:27 PM on May 9, 2016 [1 favorite]
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Still, this is more scientific than most articles on AI and extraterrestrial life that I've read lately.
I spent two hours writing the simulation out in Python because I have completely lost control of my life.
So have we all.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 4:57 AM on May 8, 2016 [5 favorites]