Howl (but not the poem)
May 10, 2016 12:37 PM   Subscribe

 
Well-meaning friends keep trying to convince me to give monthly superhero titles another try, and this article pretty effectively sums up a ton of reasons why I hang out on Queer Comics Twitter most of the time instead.
posted by Narrative Priorities at 12:44 PM on May 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


> (In an unrelated tangent, Monkees fandom is currently tearing itself apart. Three years ago it used to be dominated by women. Now it’s dominated by men, mostly being arseholes. The Monkees have critical respect now, you see, so they’re not for women any more.)

---

There is something utterly toxic about the fandom as it is now, with the way certain Monkees fans (male fans, especially) are elbowing others in the metaphorical face to “show how much they know,” and aggressively assert their style of being a fan as being superior to how other people (women) are fans.


I can't even imagine how insecure in your masculinity you would have to be in order to think that denigrating the manner in which female Monkees fans enjoy and celebrate the band would be a valid way of reasserting it...but then for these assholes I guess it doesn't matter what they're arguing about - comic books, the Monkees, antique stamps - as long as they're shitting on women in a vain attempt to feel better about themselves while they do it.

Nuke us from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:52 PM on May 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


I really had no idea about the toxicity in Monkees' fandom. Like, that is next level WTFery.
posted by Kitteh at 12:56 PM on May 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


I initially assumed that the Monkees fandom thing was intended as a sly bit of Swiftian rhetorical satire, BUT NO.
posted by Strange Interlude at 1:01 PM on May 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


"A bunch of costumed perverts with day jobs" doesn't just describe superhero comics.

I used to feel the same way... but I feel a lot better about going to the comic store after discovering Bone, Giant Days, Lumberjanes, etc.
posted by infinitewindow at 1:02 PM on May 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


"We’re white men, but we know white men are the worst" is ...yes. Correct. Thank you. It's a big part of the reason why I very often roll my eyes at writing about sexism in geek culture. I know that most of the people working this particular tract of land are sincere, and well-meaning, and many of them are good writers, but still I get frustrated when I feel like "writing about how bad sexism in geek culture is" has become just another genre of writing where the loudest voices are men's voices.
posted by Jeanne at 1:12 PM on May 10, 2016 [10 favorites]


Noted in the comments that Greg Rucka refuses to work with Berganza. So Berganza will not be editing the comic. So the bad guys loose a little.

I never knew that about Chris Sims. I'm running out of white men who's work I enjoy who I feel comfortable reading. For some reason, that's not actually feeling like a problem. Odd.

As a note: is there anything which has not gotten worse when white guys were interjected into the mix? Honest question here, because I'm having to think back to things like the Roman conquests and even that is debatable, given their reliance on slave labor.
posted by Hactar at 1:14 PM on May 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


So, a few years ago Faith Erin Hicks put out her Friends With Boys graphic novel. I rush to my local comic book store, trying to support local business and all, and requested them to order it for me. Dude didn't know how to spell her name. Dude didn't listen to me when I spelled it for him. He half-heartedly searched his distributor's database and said, "Sorry, our distributor doesn't have it." I asked which distributor he uses and he said, "Diamond". I tweeted at Faith and expressed my sadness that they used Diamond as their distributor so I couldn't special order it from them. She, along with multiple others, tweeted back something along the lines of "What?!? It is in their Spring preview!"

Dude couldn't be arsed for the sale.

All of my pocket money nowadays goes to Patreon and Kickstarter for the vast numbers of amazing queer and indie comics artists out there - all found via Queer/Indie Comics Twitter, as mentioned above. First someone links you to Sauceome, then you start following the comics artist on Twitter, then they retweet their friend, who is also a comics artist, or joins as a contributor to another indie comic series, and these are all smart, talented, funny, well-connected people and then suddenly my house is full of indie comics and life is faboo.
posted by jillithd at 1:16 PM on May 10, 2016 [27 favorites]


It's scattershot, but not remotely wrong, hence "Howl" I guess. During my late-life foray into comics the Mindless Ones blog was the source for interesting commentary for me, especially as someone appreciative of having Grant Morrison's oeuvre mapped. I still routinely refer people to their Rogues Review series on Batman and/or Doctor Who villains (see their non tech-centric conception of the Cybermen), despite not having checked there since I stopped reading even the good comics.

I've always loved Head, but never seen/thought much of The Monkees series. I hate the idea of people being dicks in that fandom too.
posted by comealongpole at 1:19 PM on May 10, 2016


I am super, super thankful that the comic store I hung out most as a kid, the one on my walk home from Jr. High on McDonald Ave in Brooklyn, was run by an older Russian lady who took exactly no shit from anyone. She was always much nicer to me than she ever had to be and let me hang out in the store every day after school, knowing full well I bought a comic maybe once every month or so.

Every time I end up in another shitty, dick-swingin', bro-y comic shop I just think about how it does not, at all, have to be like this but it is. Over and over and over again it is.
posted by griphus at 1:20 PM on May 10, 2016 [12 favorites]


Kitteh: "I really had no idea about the toxicity in Monkees' fandom. Like, that is next level WTFery."

I had no idea that there was Monkees' fandom. At least not since 1967 or so.
posted by octothorpe at 1:35 PM on May 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


So much to agree with on this. From the flood of toxic fandom, to the fact that even the fight against misogyny and racism can be easily dominated our subverted by white males.

It's been a while since I've gone to a physical comic shops, and only for comics my wife wants- the 200+ webcomics I read satisfy my comic itch. It's tempting to just wash my hands of toxic fandom, and concentrate on the creators I like.

Except things are getting worse, and the backlash against women and PoC online is only starting to pick up steam. People I know are getting hurt, and others are scared. There's no easy solution, not even running away. There may not be ANY solution.

I wish I could end this on a positive note, but that's as native as believing in superheroes.
posted by happyroach at 1:40 PM on May 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


I had no idea that there was Monkees' fandom. At least not since 1967 or so.
Recently. Discussion of new album.
posted by thelonius at 1:44 PM on May 10, 2016


Also, I am glad that the essay is phrased as it is, just because the solution to "the entire superhero comics landscape is toxic" is so often "well just buy indie comics!" Which is fine! Please buy indie comics and support the creators! Kickstart and Patreon to your heart's content! Buy them to the exception of the superhero comics, even! If there's a community where your dollar and your voice as a fan will actually mean something, that's definitely going to be in the community formed around stuff not published by Marvel and DC.

But! I want to read non-shitty, non-*ist, well-written, well-drawn superhero comics featuring the superheroes I've liked since I was a kid in their context without giving money and positive feedback to the whole shitty mishegoss. But wanting that doesn't get a good Batman book published by a company that doesn't protect serial harassers into my hands, or anyone's hands. And I really, truly and genuinely think that not having that, not having the company that publishes the Avengers and Spider-Man and Batman and Superman be a company you can feel not shitty about buying from is a loss for everyone.
posted by griphus at 1:45 PM on May 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


The Reek of Wrongness, the "stench of evil," is a cliche in fantasy fiction.
But there is no Reek of Wrongness like a comic book shop, or even the comic book section of a busy B&N.
Misogyny, in great enough concentration, has a smell.
posted by Countess Elena at 1:49 PM on May 10, 2016 [9 favorites]


And, like, if you think that you can get around Marvel and DC being rotten on the inside by only buying certain titles by certain creators aimed at certain (and often younger) audiences -- another solution I hear a lot -- just recall that the horrible Batgirl cover bullshit from last year was about the cover to that type of "good" superhero comic.
posted by griphus at 1:50 PM on May 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


Also, and sorry for getting so hobby-horsey here, the sort of "eh let it burn" mentality toward superhero comics comes at the cost of our history and culture as all sorts of different kinds of Americans. There was that whole stink recently after what's-his-face referred to Will Eisner as a "mediocre white man," and, thankfully the backlash against erasing Jewish-American history like that was severe and appropriate.

But when I hear people say stuff like "welp, superhero comics are the domain of the Shitty White Man so fuck 'em," it feels like we're, collectively, abandoning the legacy of Batman and Superman and all these wonderful things to the Shitty White Men and their decisions. Not that I can at all blame anyone for throwing up their hands in disgust, but it's also not as neutral an action as it seems even when we're so fucking oversaturated as a culture with MCU and now DCU and all the other stuff.

I guess I just really hope all these superheroes become public domain before I die, just so that the opportunity for anyone to create a Batman or X-Men comic and sell it and make a living like that without paying fealty to Marvel/DC exists.
posted by griphus at 2:04 PM on May 10, 2016 [11 favorites]


My gateway comic came out in the early-ish '80s. It had a huge cast, but at its core, throughout a long and suprisingly successful run, the most important, most relevant, most competent heroes were basically The Token Black Guy, The Token Female, and a Disabled Guy--no voice, horribly scarred face hidden behind a mask.

From there, I went on to one of the big superhero teams, where the greatest soldier ever, whose near-super talents included leadership, and a powerful god were taking orders from a woman. She was flighty and pretty and not all that powerful, and these guys didn't question her leadership. Not once. The dudes who did were invariably cast as being douchey in the first place. She wasn't the only woman on the team, either. They were all competent. Pretty much equals. Hardly an issue.

And then, y'know, X-Men, right?

So I grew up, and I changed, and comics changed too. I tend to think that society gets more progressive over time, and so does our fictional media. But I look back at those old Avengers, and X-Men, and holy shit I never realized how incredibly subversive Larry Hama was being with G.I. Joe, and then...and then I see all the crap that has gone on since. Sure, there are many even better things out there now, but what with all the refrigerators and Sue Dinbys and "heroes can't be happy" in between, I can't even fathom it.

And that's just what's in the text, y'know? That completely leaves out stuff like Cho and Berganza and the rest.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:18 PM on May 10, 2016 [8 favorites]


Talking about the Monkees/music fandom, it's probably an issue in a lot of music fandoms. I'm a huge hardcore Radiohead nerd, going on over 20 years now. I don't even log into the "main" fan website anymore (atease), haven't for years.

Instead I log into the tiny, private message board made up almost solely of women, which was created over a decade ago. It's the one place we can just discuss Radiohead without dealing with sexism and insinuations and having our credentials questioned at every turn.
posted by Windigo at 2:22 PM on May 10, 2016 [7 favorites]


Because believe you me, there's definitely a "wrong" way to be a music fan, and it's basically in whatever way a group of women are currently enjoying the music and expressing that enjoyment.
posted by Windigo at 2:27 PM on May 10, 2016 [21 favorites]


It does seem like there's hope. Marvel has made some real efforts, as far as I can tell. I'm only reading Sqirrel Girl and Black Panther so far, but there are a number of other titles I've heard good things about.
posted by rikschell at 2:29 PM on May 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Squirrel Girl can be obtained by mail.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 2:33 PM on May 10, 2016


Ms. Marvel absolutely deserves every bit of praise it has received.

I'm sad that Squirrel Girl has that extra-cartoony art; I feel like that makes the character too light, and therefore lets fans ignore the fact that yes, she really could kick anyone and everyone's ass. It lets fans say, "Eh, she's a joke character, I mean it's drawn for little kids." Feels like that's an unfortunate decision.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:34 PM on May 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Instead I log into the tiny, private message board made up almost solely of women, which was created over a decade ago.

We have one of these for my alma mater's FB page. A separate private group because the main page was overtaken by Glibertarian manbabies. It seems to be A Thing Now: women need their own space because men will never ever shut up.
posted by selfnoise at 2:35 PM on May 10, 2016 [15 favorites]


I could have written much of this. (I'm not as much of a Grant Morrison fan, but anyway.) I've said this before on the blue, but it's worth repeating in the current context: I not only don't want the sort of stuff that tends to fill up the shelves of my local comics shop, I don't want to know the sort of person who does.
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:36 PM on May 10, 2016


Own space because men will never ever shut up.

Yes, precisely. The atease board is huge, with sprawling threads and subthreads. And pretty much any time a thread seemed to be heavily populated with women, an avalanche of men would pop in to derail it, mock it, tell the women commenting how they were wrong. Especially if it was a thread considered frivolous- fanart, fanfiction, lighthearted jokes, admiration for anything concerning the band outside of Serious Topics About the Music. And it just became too exhausting. So we split en masse, like 40 of us, easily.
posted by Windigo at 2:43 PM on May 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


See, I mostly love Erica Henderson's art. But most comic book art looks pretty awful to me. Simple lines work best. She really gels with Ryan North, too (a white guy who seems to be one of the good ones).
posted by rikschell at 2:45 PM on May 10, 2016


But most comic book art looks pretty awful to me.

Oh, wow. Some excellently beautiful comics art to try: Basewood, Daytripper, The Nameless City, Serenity Rose (just off the top of my head)
posted by jillithd at 3:01 PM on May 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


And Relish and How To Be Happy. But most of these are beautiful to me due to the coloring, I guess.
posted by jillithd at 3:22 PM on May 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


I initially assumed that the Monkees fandom thing was intended as a sly bit of Swiftian rhetorical satire, BUT NO.

Seriously.

Can I exchange my white male card for something a little less horrible, like a case of smallpox?
posted by Gaz Errant at 3:41 PM on May 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


I know it's hard to see but I think this is the death throes of the patriarchy. Have faith. It'll get better. Maybe not soon though. Sorry about that.
posted by evilDoug at 4:07 PM on May 10, 2016 [4 favorites]


holy shit I never realized how incredibly subversive Larry Hama was being with G.I. Joe

Didn't realize it at the time either but I can see it looking back. He'll never get enough credit for turning a toy tie-in comic into gold.
posted by davros42 at 4:22 PM on May 10, 2016 [6 favorites]


I'm running out of things that I can enjoy without guilt. Comics I stopped a while ago after becoming increasingly nauseated by Alan Moore (who I used to adore). More recently, I've had to start looking cockeyed at Louis CK and Michael Gira. Ugh.
posted by turbid dahlia at 4:41 PM on May 10, 2016 [1 favorite]



Own space because men will never ever shut up


I think any fandom with any history behind it spawns this. When I was seriously in Doctor Who fandom, you had the big, old fan board, Outpost Gallifrey (at one point renamed Gallifrey Base) and then you had LiveJournal DW fandom and rarely did the twain meet because Jesus fuck, OG was toxic to women. DW fandom even has a long history of men writing fanfic (the show format really lends itself to fic) but girls write icky girl fic, and that just will not do.

When I was in a music fandom yonks ago, I helped create the first female internet/irl-at-shows space for the fandom. There were dudes in that group and this was really before you had a wide spread acknowledgment of how men occupy and dominate female spaces when given half a chance, but they certainly did do that on a semi regular basis.
posted by soren_lorensen at 4:56 PM on May 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


For a while I was trying to keep up with Comics News. I mean, I make the damn things, I should probably know what's going on, right? Except it seems to just be an unending torrent of news about 70-year-old superhero properties I've never cared about, and the terrible thing some dude involved in producing them did this week.

I recently unfollowed most of the Comics Twitter I was following. Including queer creators who regularly rant about The Latest Terrible Thing In Corporate Superheros. And I feel a lot calmer and happier. Now when I hear people talking about comics, it's mostly things they like. Which makes it more likely to inspire me to get back to work on my own stuff.

And every so often I visit Phoenix Comics here in Seattle to sell them a new pile of my books (they keep selling!), and I ask the largely queer folks who run the place what's new and cool, and walk away with a few trade paperbacks or hardbacks.

It must really suck to like superheros and have to wade through all the garbage associated with corporate superhero comics to try and find stuff that doesn't make you feel like a sideshow exhibit.
posted by egypturnash at 5:08 PM on May 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


I was talking with my boyfriend (who, well, co-owns a comic shop) about why the harassment stuff in the comics industry feels like a big deal -- I mean, there's sexual harassment in almost every industry. But comics is incredibly -- to a fault -- social. The people you work with are, more than likely, your social peers. They're the people you hang out with. And that makes it incredibly tiny -- everyone knows everyone else. So if you accuse someone of harassment, it's not just that you may lose your job -- it's that you'd lose future jobs and quite possibly, your entire social circle. That pretty much sucks.

But! And I know it depends on each store and there are plenty (PLENTY) of gross people selling and making comics, but I was greeting people at my bf's shop on FCBD and I was charmed at how many women, children, families and otherwise non-typical comic book fans were coming through the door and expressing excitement for comics. One woman came in looking for Yu-Gi-Oh cards (which the shop doesn't carry) but left with a bag full of comics anyway and then she brought her boyfriend back later. There was also the man who impressed me, when asking about Black Panther, didn't know there was a new one ("You mean they've started it over?"). I was even more delighted by how many people didn't know it was Free Comic Book Day and became so excited when I told them it was.

DC won't listen to you, from what I've been told (and they're just a mess anyway), but Marvel will. If you like a Marvel title, email them and say so. If you want to see more of something, email them and say so. There's also a lot of cool stuff happening at Image right now. After somewhat of a rough relaunch, Valiant is doing some fun things, too (Faith, the new Archer & Armstrong series). And yes, so many indie comics that are amazing and thoughtful and interesting.

Comics (especially, but not limited to, mainstream/superhero -- I am not letting indie comics off the hook either) has a ton of problems it needs to face up to. I think it will. I have to hope it will. I mean, at this point, I'm basically stuck with comics.
posted by darksong at 5:09 PM on May 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


OMG. I just realized something. My wife and I own an exceedingly nerdy yarn shop. I've always wondered at why there's such an overlap between knitting and other nerdy hobbies. We have tons of customers who are Doctor Who fans, comic book readers, Star Trek, Star Wars, Harry Potter, all the fandoms. I know it's totally mainstream now, but it's more than that. And it just hit me. Knitting is still a women-dominated subculture. That makes it a safe space for nerds to congregate, and that subculture is exceedingly short on safe spaces. *Facepalm.* It makes so much sense now.
posted by rikschell at 5:26 PM on May 10, 2016 [16 favorites]


Ha! Rikschell, I once made jokes about wanting to create a combo comic book/yarn shop. I know it wasn't really going to work but it seemed like a delightful idea to me for a while. (I knew of a few comic shops close to yarn stores -- I'd often combine my trips. So it seemed like a good idea for a one-stop-shopping.)
posted by darksong at 6:04 PM on May 10, 2016


If I had known about the toxicity in Monkees' fandom, I'd have noted it and linked to it in my Monkees FPP... or maybe not bothered posting it.

I've mentioned before that I can see from anywhere in my small place two-and-a-half shelves of collected webcomic books acquired through Kickstarter (and the thickest book with the largest title on the spine: Ursula Vernon's "DIGGER"... runners-up Michelle Czajkowski's "Ava's Demon" Volumes 1 & 2 with no writing on the beautifully bound spines - for reasons). Some of comic books' best "new" creatives have come out of webcomics, both women and 'female-friendly' men (I'm looking at you, Ryan North of "The Unbeatable Squirrel Girl", the only current comic series I regularly buy... but on Comixology, still not going out to the stores)
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:52 PM on May 10, 2016 [2 favorites]


rikschell: out of curiosity, do you see a "missing generation" in your shop - women who came of age in the '70s? 55-65ish.
posted by Leon at 7:03 PM on May 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


Leon, actually we see a lot of that demographic, but they're mostly coming to it later in life, either relearning or picking it up for the first time. Also we get a LOT of doctors. Maybe for the same reason? Much to think on.
posted by rikschell at 7:29 PM on May 10, 2016 [1 favorite]


I am super, super thankful that the comic store I hung out most as a kid, the one on my walk home from Jr. High on McDonald Ave in Brooklyn, was run by an older Russian lady who took exactly no shit from anyone. She was always much nicer to me than she ever had to be and let me hang out in the store every day after school, knowing full well I bought a comic maybe once every month or so.

Every time I end up in another shitty, dick-swingin', bro-y comic shop I just think about how it does not, at all, have to be like this but it is. Over and over and over again it is.


I'm glad you had a space like this, griphus. At the same time, the way you put that made me think of the tabletop gaming thread recently. Women who will take no shit from anyone shouldn't be what's required to have a respectful space for comics enjoyment, y'know? It's completely awesome you had that, but man. I'm just sad spaces like that aren't the norm, and that it often takes a tough woman enforcer of sorts to have one.

This hits especially hard for me at a time when the local indie comics shop down the street from me closed a year ago. (The intellectual property got bought by a local comics chain.) Some of the staff ended up establishing a new comics section a few doors down—at the game store. Our other nearby option for comics is also a game store. These spaces just do not seem as friendly to women as the old comics shop, which was co-owned by a woman and stocked a huge variety of stuff, including local indie comics by women. I don't think I realized how good we had it.

The game stores do both carry Sex Criminals now, which since The Unwritten ended is the only serial I get (besides sometimes reading Karnak when my husband picks it up). That seems like a good sign, since that comic (and basically anything from Milkfed Criminal Masterminds) is a very sex-positive, women-positive space. I'm not sure whether they have Bitch Planet. But eh, I get my brimping fix from Image Direct now, 'cause for a while no one was carrying the stuff I wanted to read.

Queer comics Twitter, with its connections to weird Twitter, is a way better space than most physical comics establishments. Indie comics Twitter in general is pretty decent. But griphus is right: A real victory would be reclaiming those things I love, like that universe depicted in Marvel movies, and making them better. I've never been into serial superhero comics—in general, they're short for what they cost, full of lame humor, impossible to pick up in the middle and understand, and packed with weird, stupidly male-gazey crotch and breast shots. When you get someone doing them who has a brain and a conscience, better things sometimes happen. But even that often isn't enough.

Speaking of The Unwritten, Karen Berger leaving DC was a blow. She was the mother of the weird there—and I get the sense that she was also a brilliant guide for the men whose work she edited. And so we wait for better things.
posted by limeonaire at 9:08 PM on May 10, 2016 [3 favorites]


My problem with comics is that I started with Sandman. And at least some of them were already bound by then, so frustration at the serving size didn't outweigh engagement with the story.

No way in hell I'm going to find something I like as well as Sandman.
posted by Fantods at 6:55 AM on May 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


No way in hell I'm going to find something I like as well as Sandman.

Well, I guess, what was it about Sandman that you liked so much? Death? If so, I'd highly recommend Serenity Rose and Strong Female Protagonist and maybe even Giant Days. The different monsters you meet through his journeys? Then I'd recommend Fables. The dark humor? Preacher. Y: The Last Man was really excellent, too.
posted by jillithd at 8:40 AM on May 11, 2016


I really had no idea about the toxicity in Monkees' fandom. Like, that is next level WTFery.

Worst thing is, it's not only unsurprising, it got an "oh, of course that would happen" response from me.
posted by MartinWisse at 1:20 PM on May 11, 2016


Oh man, I don't know. Fables has some reaalllly problematic issues with women characters. Also a weird pro-Zionist bent that comes out of nowhere in at least one issue. But mostly: lots of rape in that series. Not handled well.

Y: The Last Man filled me with rage, honestly. I found the women characters flat and unconvincing. There is a lot of interesting ground to cover in the idea of a planet with only women in it, that other (female) authors have covered so much better than that series did. LeGuin, Perkins, Tiptree; read them instead.
posted by emjaybee at 1:25 PM on May 11, 2016 [1 favorite]


Yeah, Bill Willingham is many things, but you have to be able to swallow his fairly rightwing politics and obnoxious gender views along with his stories. That's been the case since Elementals.

And it's a pity, because Fables, is that sort of breakout comic that Vertigo used to specialise in, something non Club Comix comics readers could enjoy, if not for that sexism.

Y: The Last man was just a harem fantasy comic; the Japanese do those so much better.
posted by MartinWisse at 1:31 PM on May 11, 2016 [3 favorites]


But when I hear people say stuff like "welp, superhero comics are the domain of the Shitty White Man so fuck 'em," it feels like we're, collectively, abandoning the legacy of Batman and Superman and all these wonderful things to the Shitty White Men and their decisions.

Not to mention that this legacy was largely build by the children of Jewish/Italian/Eastern European immigrants at a time when those weren't quite White yet: there's a reason Superman was an illegal immigrant and Captain America a premature anti-fascist.
posted by MartinWisse at 1:34 PM on May 11, 2016 [2 favorites]


But when I hear people say stuff like "welp, superhero comics are the domain of the Shitty White Man so fuck 'em," it feels like we're, collectively, abandoning the legacy of Batman and Superman and all these wonderful things to the Shitty White Men and their decisions.

This, and the bit about the Monkees fandom, is, while not surprising per se, a bit strange to me as someone who hangs out mostly in fanfic communities, because that kind of toxic masculinity is just not there (although there are many other problems, but . . .). These superhero characters and stories and art are deeply popular to women; the vast majority of fanfic is written by women, and a lot of it is so good. I think the dominant cultural narrative is, as soren_lorensen commented, that girls write icky girl fic, but I also think a lot of men and just a lot of fans in general would be interested in the sorts of stories that are coming out of fanfiction spaces.

My husband recently commented as we were rewatching the most recent Batman movies, at the scene where Alfred hugs the young Bruce Wayne after his parents' death, "See, I'd read an entire comic book beginning with this scene and ending when Bruce Wayne became an adult. Just, a whole comic of Alfred raising Batman." And that's the kind of stuff being created in fanfic communities.

Clearly there's a hunger for this stuff. The question is, what can we do as consumers to put pressure on people at Marvel and DC to put more women, more people of color, more queer voices in charge of vehicles like Batman and the Avengers?
posted by chainsofreedom at 3:03 PM on May 12, 2016 [1 favorite]


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