"This was an act of unity amongst sisters and a symbol of achievement."
May 11, 2016 7:26 AM Subscribe

Sixteen soon-to-be U.S. Army officers will face no formal sanction over raising their fists in an "inappropriate" but not political gesture during their Old Corps graduation photo shoot, the U.S. Military Academy has announced.

The 16 black women (out of 17 black women in the graduating class of around 1,000) will graduate this month from the Academy and become second lieutenants in the Army. Unlike most colleges, West Point (and the U.S. Department of Defense overall) prohibits most political displays, and the raised fists struck many as emblematic of the Black Lives Matter movement (or maybe just white fragility). The cadets will receive "additional instruction", and all Old Corps photos (a longstanding tradition) will be reviewed by the Academy's public affairs office in the future.

USMA Superintendent Robert Caslen (a three-star general) wrote in a letter to cadets that "While the inquiry did not find that these cadets violated a policy or regulation, it did determine that they demonstrated a lapse of awareness in how symbols and gestures can be misinterpreted and cause division." But Caslen also pointed out, "Last December, on the night before the Army-Navy game, I joined hundreds of staff and graduates in raising our fist in support of the Army football team during the Army-Navy pep rally video. The time, place and manner of a symbol can also hold significant meaning and influence perception."

posted by Etrigan (60 comments total) 13 users marked this as a favorite

or maybe just white fragility

(finger on nose)
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:36 AM on May 11, 2016 [54 favorites]

the raised fists struck many as emblematic of the Black Lives Matter movement

How soon we forget.

/ "Last December, on the night before the Army-Navy game"
// But not after the game!
posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:36 AM on May 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

I thought that this was going to be some kind of obvious Panthers reference, but they're just kind of... doing a thing?

Never make white people uncomfortable, I guess.
posted by selfnoise at 7:46 AM on May 11, 2016 [17 favorites]

How soon we forget.

Immediately what I thought of, too. Considering the problems the armed forces have with harassment, this is pretty rich.
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:50 AM on May 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

I have an inappropriate gesture of significant meaning, myself.
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:10 AM on May 11, 2016 [14 favorites]

what a joke. :(
posted by Dressed to Kill at 8:16 AM on May 11, 2016

the raised fists struck many as emblematic of the Black Lives Matter movement

I am still waiting for a general to explain why we don't want military personnel who are against unnecessary force and in favor of equal treatment for all races. I mean, I understand why that's a problem for them, but I think it would be useful for someone to spell that out step by step and see how it sounds.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 8:16 AM on May 11, 2016 [27 favorites]

I'm really bothered that these strong, intelligent young women are being scolded for cheering for themselves at the end of what must have been a hard four years.
posted by suelac at 8:17 AM on May 11, 2016 [44 favorites]

"Mr. Burk, a former drill sergeant, who is white, said via email that he had disciplined soldiers for making Nazi salutes in photos, and felt the raised fist was not much different."

[F]ormer Florida Rep. Allen West said ... ""The obvious hypothetical question is what if these were 16 white male West Point Cadets from the south who took a picture in uniform with the Confederate battle flag?"

The false equivalence... wow.
posted by adept256 at 8:21 AM on May 11, 2016 [47 favorites]

I am still waiting for a general to explain why we don't want military personnel who are against unnecessary force and in favor of equal treatment for all races. I mean, I understand why that's a problem for them, but I think it would be useful for someone to spell that out step by step and see how it sounds.

You don't want members of the armed forces taking political positions while in uniform. The instinct to keep the armed forces publicly politically neutral is sound. In this case, it's not clear to me that the gesture was, in fact, intended as a political symbol, so I'm glad the young cadets aren't being disciplined. Of course, I'm sure if you pored over all Old Corps photos, you could find something questionable in at least a handful. Naturally it was the black women's that got the hostile scrutiny.
posted by praemunire at 8:22 AM on May 11, 2016 [26 favorites]

On Tuesday, he wrote a post saying that by raising their fists, the women were identified with Black Lives Matter activists “known for inflicting violent protest throughout various parts of the United States, calling for the deaths of police officers, and even going so far as to call for the deaths of white Americans.”

So the venerable New York Times couldn't find anyone who could give a neutral reason why cadets aren't supposed to take political positions in uniform, instead giving a platform to someone who believes in the white supremacist Fox News version of BLM?
posted by Mavri at 8:27 AM on May 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

The obvious hypothetical question is what if these were 16 white male West Point Cadets from the south who took a picture in uniform with the Confederate battle flag?

That's really more of a Citadel thing, or perhaps VMI.
posted by TedW at 8:40 AM on May 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

The false equivalence... wow.

There is literally 0% chance that those two dudes don't think black people want to kill white people.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:44 AM on May 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

You don't want members of the armed forces taking political positions while in uniform.

Generally true, and desirable for obvious reasons.

On the other hand, I also am not entirely comfortable with Army leadership who give the impression that they think that "the government shouldn't be killing significant numbers of civilians because of racial bias" is the kind of "political issue" on which they need to remain carefully neutral.
posted by Nerd of the North at 8:46 AM on May 11, 2016 [13 favorites]

What's up with the unquestioned designations and equivalences of 'fists raised' == black lives matter == violence? Shame on you NYT for perpetuating this. So tired of this f'ing country.
posted by kokaku at 8:47 AM on May 11, 2016 [14 favorites]

I'm sure if you pored over all Old Corps photos, you could find something questionable in at least a handful.

I'm sure if you pored over current active duty photos, especially from the sandbox, you'll find plenty of white men in uniform with fists raised.
posted by j_curiouser at 8:58 AM on May 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

On the other hand, I also am not entirely comfortable with Army leadership who give the impression that they think that "the government shouldn't be killing significant numbers of civilians because of racial bias" is the kind of "political issue" on which they need to remain carefully neutral.

Expressing affiliation with a particular group advocating a particular solution to the problem would be a problem, though.

I'm not going to pretend that many of the people who were complaining weren't driven by the general sense that the cops are doing their job jussssssst fine when they gun down racial minorities--that the underlying concept that black lives matter is a political position rather than a foundational axiom of humanity. But there is a legitimate concern potentially implicated here. So I think the response of Army leadership here, not to punish them but to provide further education on how to avoid the perception of political endorsement, is appropriate.
posted by praemunire at 9:01 AM on May 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Pretty sure that after years in that traditionally white male enclave while being (1) women and (2) black, a wee bit of a scolding is probably gonna be the least of the crap they've taken.
posted by Mary Ellen Carter at 9:15 AM on May 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

The gesture, used years ago by Black winners at the Olympics,1968 is a symbol of Black Power, ie, pride. These are women who broke a long held tradition of no women at West Point. A Black former slave attended West Point in 1877. They are proud of their accomplishment and we should be too.
posted by Postroad at 9:38 AM on May 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

These are women who broke a long held tradition of no women at West Point.

Women have been cadets at West Point since 1976. There will likely a be a third-generation female cadet (as in, her grandmother and mother went there) within the next three years.
posted by Etrigan at 9:42 AM on May 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

You Do Not Want The Military In Politics, Period.

Except when you do. For example, I'm perfectly OK with the military pushing back against a candidate's claims that if he's elected he'll have them take out the families of terrorists by saying (in effect) "You're out of your element here, Donnie" and "This isn't 'Nam, there are rules.." (and with the strong implication that there should have been rules in 'Nam as well..)

I don't want the military aligning itself with any political party or making endorsements of candidates. I don't generally want them openly lobbying for laws or publicly advocating policy positions. But I am quite comfortable with them publicly acknowledging the supremacy of the rule of law and publicly approving of policies which reduce the use of violence against the citizens of our nation. And in these twisted times many see that as an overtly political position as well.

As others have suggested, the reaction to this particular situation at West Point seems to hinge in many cases on the observer's beliefs about the BLM movement. People who see it primarily as a single-issue advocacy group asking that the government reduce the use of violence against the citizens of our nation naturally have a different reaction than those who believe BLM are a bunch of violent anti-police agitators with a radical political agenda.
posted by Nerd of the North at 9:42 AM on May 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

"In 1870, the first African American cadet, James Webster Smith, was admitted into the academy but never reached the graduation ceremonies. It was not until 1877 that Henry Ossian Flipper became the first to graduate, after enduring four years of prejudice and silence. In 1976, the first female cadets were admitted into West Point."
But our military was segregated till 1950 and was integrated by Truman.
posted by Postroad at 9:43 AM on May 11, 2016

I absolutely agree that we do not want the military in politics.

Where I don't agree is with this particular example being politics, or with the other cited example of shooting down suggestions that the military target the families of terrorists, carpet bomb, or go back to torture.

That's not about politics. That's about ethics.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:50 AM on May 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

The gesture, used years ago by Black winners at the Olympics,1968 is a symbol of Black Power, ie, pride.

And for the sin of doing so in an American uniform, Tommie Smith (GOLD) and John Carlos (BRONZE) were thrown off the Olympic team. Not much has changed apparently.
posted by adept256 at 9:52 AM on May 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

I spoke at West Point last fall and spent a day being shown around campus, including lunch with cadets, muster, and a glimpse of the dorms. My overall impression was of physical overwhelm. The amount of normative physical discipline, of factors like demerits if your uniforms were out of order in the closet much less attention to what you're wearing, was intense. And there was some undercurrent of flippant disregard, which I couldn't quite put my finger on, which was aimed at the short, physically unimposing, cerebral female cadet who was showing me around, even though she was senior to the tall white boys who shared our lunch table. (Maybe also at me, as a guest. I am a white woman with a doctorate.)

I looked at the photos of those black girls, and was struck by how timidly many of them had raised their fists. It didn't surprise me, but it was heartbreaking. West Point is a physically terrorizing place for anyone. (The week after I spoke, the academy was in the news when fifteen or so cadets got concussions in a pillow fight.) I can't imagine what those poor girls went through.
posted by gusandrews at 9:54 AM on May 11, 2016 [11 favorites]

[F]ormer Florida Rep. Allen West said ... ""The obvious hypothetical question is what if these were 16 white male West Point Cadets from the south who took a picture in uniform with the Confederate battle flag?"

So close, but ... redirected so very far. The obvious hypothetical question is: what if 16 white males raised their fist, anytime, anywhere? We'd call that: just another Tuesday.
posted by Dashy at 10:10 AM on May 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I read that as what they'd say in meetings at the WH if Trump were elected, FWIW.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:19 AM on May 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

I read that as what they'd say in meetings at the WH if Trump were elected, FWIW.

For example, I'm perfectly OK with the military pushing back against a candidate's claims that if he's elected...
(emphasis added)
posted by Etrigan at 10:32 AM on May 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Except when you do. For example, I'm perfectly OK with the military pushing back against a candidate's claims that if he's elected he'll have them take out the families of terrorists by saying (in effect) "You're out of your element here, Donnie" and "This isn't 'Nam, there are rules.." (and with the strong implication that there should have been rules in 'Nam as well..)

You're asking the military to directly undercut the campaign of an individual seeking the Presidency.

Phrasing like that -- directing it at Donnie -- is problematic, yes.

Expecting the military to state categorically that it will follow the law? Also known as That Thing They Should Always Do? No. That's not undercutting a presidential campaign at all. That is the military staying in its lane. If it had stayed in its lane throughout the last fifteen years, we might not have quite as many problems right now, and definitely less national shame.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:34 AM on May 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Phrasing like that -- directing it at Donnie -- is problematic, yes.

pushing back against a candidate's claims that if he's elected
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:42 AM on May 11, 2016

fifteen or so cadets got concussions in a pillow fight

The hell kind of pillows are they giving these kids?

More on point, the problem we have in this country right now is that everything - literally fucking everything - is political because there is no position, however trivial, that can be adopted by people outside the conservative tribe, or whatever you want to call it, that will not be seen as a political attack by conservatives and reacted to with bellowing outrage simply because some libtard said it. In that context, "Maybe the police shouldn't kill so many people," is absolutely a political statement. So is "I like mushrooms on pizza," or "I don't think camouflage pants are a good fashion choice."
posted by Naberius at 10:47 AM on May 11, 2016 [7 favorites]

fifteen or so cadets got concussions in a pillow fight

The hell kind of pillows are they giving these kids?

Work out every day for the next four years, season with a little unarmed combat training, and you'll be able to split some fuckin' lids with a pillow too.

And that doesn't even take into account that they're mostly 18-22-year-olds in an overwhelmingly male heterosexual environment (to the point that West Point still literally buses in women from nearby colleges for mixers (but you can't have sex in your room)).
posted by Etrigan at 10:50 AM on May 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

First, holding them back from graduating with their class would have been going way overboard, they've gone through organized hell to get where their at.

Second, they're a bunch of wanna be ring knockers from Prick U. The ones being half-assed about it will probably get a bigger ass chewing than the 3 in the front right.

Third, bright Firsties (seniors) that haven't internalized, you do not risk adverse publicity for your new chosen in group without a good professional reason, probably need a moment to think about life in the Officer Corps before swearing allegiance to the Constitution and all that.

Fourth, if they do take a commission, they'll be butterbars and in for a whole new world of indignities, so this is just "good training."

G'luck to them all.
posted by ridgerunner at 10:53 AM on May 11, 2016 [1 favorite]

l because there is no position, however trivial, that can be adopted by people outside the conservative tribe, or whatever you want to call it, that will not be seen as a political attack by conservatives and reacted to with bellowing outrage simply because some libtard said it

Unfortunately this seems like the whole "the personal is political" thing coming to a depressing conclusion: the political is personal. Conservative ideology is primarily based on tribalism, not on rational thinking, and they make the mistake of thinking that everyone's ideology is the same.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:53 AM on May 11, 2016 [2 favorites]

Ugh... I go round and round on this.

Raised fists are a weird symbol because they can mean all kinds of different things, but to deny that some of those meanings are overtly political seems obtuse to me. It's true that "black lives matter" is a foundational axiom of humanity," but the Black Lives Matter movement is another thing entirely, that while based on promoting the truth of the axiom, does advocate for specific changes in governance. For example, BLM Minneapolis successfully pushed for a move away from grand juries in investigations of police shootings.

But, because kyriarchy, as Sue Fulton says American culture "views a black fist very differently from a white fist." So you get racist idiots who assume that a black person raising a fist must be advocating for some particular movement (and, of course, that movement is as bad as the Confederacy or the Nazis).

So, I can't say that I think it was inappropriate for USMA to look at the photos in order to determine that the intent wasn't political. That being said, this seems like an opportunity for USMA to clarify what exactly puts a gesture on the forbidden list (and it needs not to be the skin color of the service member making it). The fact that Lt. Gen. Caslen felt the need to write in his letter about how raised fists are totally cool in some situations (i.e. a football game, where the attendees were probably primarily white and male) and not in others (i.e. when black ladies do it in a fun photo) does not bode well though I think.
posted by sparklemotion at 10:59 AM on May 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

There's probably a portrait or statue or something of Robert E. Lee somewhere on the West Point grounds that they could have done this in front of. Maybe next year's class?
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:34 AM on May 11, 2016

20 years from now, when some of these cadets are Colonels and Generals, I'm pretty sure that they'll look back at this moment with pride, perhaps seasoned with a dash of chagrin. Not because they were making some political statement, but because they'll be thinking, "OMG, we were so young then."

As a veteran, I'm proud to observe this moment of solidarity. They've just accomplished something big by graduating from the Academy. Hell, I remember feeling great just for making it through a mere 3 months of boot camp. That experience/feeling of accomplishment is in a similar vein, except that these cadets have certainly put up with a lot more, and for a lot longer, than any enlisted pogue. More power to them.

Oh, and bring back the dap.
posted by CincyBlues at 11:34 AM on May 11, 2016 [6 favorites]

You're asking the military to directly undercut the campaign of an individual seeking the Presidency.

That is a horrible idea.

Actually, I'm describing something that has already occurred. Trump announced that he would have the military hunt down the families of terrorists. High ranking figures in the nation's national defense establishment said "well, actually, that would be illegal and the army would refuse to follow those orders," and Trump insisted that he would make them.

Donald Trump has reiterated his desire for the US military to carry out the intentional killings of terrorists’ families.

In the latest Republican debate, during which much of the world focused on a gag that referred to the size of the Mr Trump's genitalia, the frontrunner said he would endorse the murders.

Taking part in the Fox News GOP debate last night, the billionaire was asked about General Michael Hayden saying that the military would refuse to follow illegal orders such as the intentional killing of terrorists’ families.

Mr Trump said: “They won’t refuse, they’re not going to refuse me — believe me.”

It's fair to criticize my somewhat flippant phrasing -- nobody in the military said they would refuse to follow Trump's orders because they would be coming from Trump, the claim was that they would refuse to follow illegal orders. But in the current climate, yes, something which should be uncontroversial and beyond partisan politics is nevertheless an issue in the current campaign.
posted by Nerd of the North at 11:56 AM on May 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Raised fists are a weird symbol because they can mean all kinds of different things

Not to mention there are different ways of raising one's fist. I was picturing the 1968 Olympic gesture - arm almost straight up, head down - before I saw the cadets' picture. Most of them are doing what I've heard described as "cactus arm" and looking straight at the camera. That's hardly even the same gesture.
posted by psoas at 11:57 AM on May 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Taking part in the Fox News GOP debate last night, the billionaire was asked about General Michael Hayden saying that the military would refuse to follow illegal orders such as the intentional killing of terrorists’ families.

Hayden retired from the AIr Force in 2008.
posted by Etrigan at 12:00 PM on May 11, 2016 [5 favorites]

"As ~~members of the Profession of Arms~~ black woman, we are held to a higher standard, where our actions are constantly observed and scrutinized in the public domain,"

FTFY
posted by MiltonRandKalman at 1:12 PM on May 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Wait, didn't we just have this history lesson, during the Harriet Tubman conversation? It's been a struggle for african american women to participate in the Army, much less as officers. and yet, they have won wars. they can't take pride in that struggle?
posted by eustatic at 1:16 PM on May 11, 2016

As black women, who volunteer to lead or send troops on missions with a high risk of maiming or death, we are held to a higher standard, where our actions are constantly observed and scrutinized in the public domain,

As it damn well should be.
posted by ridgerunner at 2:33 PM on May 11, 2016

As black women, who volunteer to lead or send troops on missions with a high risk of maiming or death, we are held to a higher standard, where our actions are constantly observed and scrutinized in the public domain,

As it damn well should be.

Is it right that that "higher standard" should also be higher (or different) than the standards for similarly situated white men?
posted by sparklemotion at 2:52 PM on May 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

As black women, ~~who volunteer to lead or send troops on missions with a high risk of maiming or death~~, we are held to a higher standard, where our actions are constantly observed and scrutinized in the public domain,

Fixed that for you because our society assumes white cis men as the default, and we get passes on a lot of shit. White women are held to a higher standard than white men. Black men are held to a higher standard than white men. Black women are held to a higher standard than white men. It is a universal truth through our society, and the specifics of the job are totally irrelevant. People who are not white cis men have to work twice as hard to be seen as just as good.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 3:00 PM on May 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Is it right that that "higher standard" should also be higher (or different) than the standards for similarly situated white men?

Nope.

They are going to graduate, if they accept a commission, they'll become part of the WPPA (West Point Protective Association) so my sympathy is strictly limited. They wanted the power and prestige of being ring knockers in the military, it is supposed to be hard to get.

As seniors they are are well exposed to the requirement, the Constitution, the mission, your unit come first. Dealing gracefully with a racist public is part of the job for now. Its unfair, wrong, and disgusting, and not their job to fix while they're in the military.

If they can't focus on keeping the troops alive, I don't want them in charge. Male, female, Red, Brown, White, Black, north, south, east, west, urban or rural, defend our country and take care of the troops or get the hell out of the way and let somebody else do the job.
posted by ridgerunner at 3:48 PM on May 11, 2016

And yet you're not getting that by virtue of both their skin colour and their gender, these women are held to a higher standard than white men with exactly the same level of competence.

It's all very well to say what you said in your last paragraph, except it utterly ignores the context.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 3:50 PM on May 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

Ridgerunner is driving home what I'm saying about what I saw at West Point. The military doesn't care if you have a human body. You're encouraged to conform it to a uniform standard and ultimately sacrifice it. And forget about having any individuality (did I mention they have to keep the furniture in their dorm rooms in a regulation place?), much less identification with any group aside from the Lord Of The Flies-managed cohort you've landed with in a school where the faculty have overwhelmingly been raised in the same environment (I was told a huge portion of the faculty are West Point grads themselves).

Black women at West Point probably have to forget that they're female and that they're black and that they're human. An awful lot of self-obliterating forgetting. While white men at West Point probably haven't thought much about the privileges of being white or being men to begin with, and being in the military is expected of white manhood anyway.
posted by gusandrews at 6:24 PM on May 11, 2016 [3 favorites]

The pillows had helmets in them. That's what caused the concussions...

I'm the daughter of a West Point grad and I interpreted the photo as a moment of pride. Those women were seniors and had worked their tails off to get there and make it through a four-year gauntlet. Much respect to them.
posted by mochapickle at 9:45 PM on May 11, 2016 [4 favorites]

Black women at West Point probably have to forget that they're female and that they're black and that they're human.

The problem here is that they were investigated and sent for further education in response to being photographed making a gesture that white men are not investigated for being photographed doing.

If the military wants to make a rule that says "you can't raise your fist while in uniform," that would be fine. But what it seems like they are saying is "if you're black/female, and you make this gesture we will assume that it means one thing, but if you're white/male we will assume something else." Which actually means that these women will never have the privilege of forgetting that they are black or female.

Of course, civilian black females can't just shed their identity either, but Westpoint can't preach "everyone has to eat the same shit" on the one hand whilst only actually serving shit to blacks or women on the other.
posted by sparklemotion at 10:26 AM on May 12, 2016 [4 favorites]

Interesting detail: Allen West is also black.

And probably learned from his WWII-veteran father (i.e, a man who remembered the segregated military) that the best way to be an African-American officer in the military is to code-switch away from being audibly African-American.
posted by Etrigan at 12:10 PM on May 12, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'd just like to point out that the Army is FULL of white supremacists, particularly in Special Forces. I live near Fort Bragg, NC, and, as an example, we had a retired general who used to drive around distributing KKK flyers. Tim McVeigh was an SF vet. It's not the whole Army, but they are there. Those young women are only at the beginning of their trials.

I am so glad that the Army didn't make a big production over this. A little surprised, but glad.
posted by corvikate at 1:14 PM on May 12, 2016 [2 favorites]

The hell kind of pillows are they giving these kids?

Have you ever taken a feather pillow to the face? Really puts you in mind of the whole "a pound of feathers or a pound of gold" question.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:24 PM on May 12, 2016

Regarding the pillow fight, when my class did it, no one got concussions because no one was dumb enough to put a helmet in their pillow (or perhaps someone smarter told them not to do so), however if you get hit hard enough with a pillow, it'll still rock you.
posted by A Bad Catholic at 3:51 PM on May 12, 2016

"If Army bases can be named after Confederates, what's wrong with a black power salute?" (WaPo)
posted by ChuraChura at 6:09 AM on May 18, 2016 [2 favorites]

The Living, Racist Ghosts of West Point

Fierce Lives Matter

In protest, a few of us wore luau shirts under our uniform jackets so that the ridiculous pastel flowery patterns would muddy up the pure black sea of midshipmen coats at the end of the stadium. After halftime, a giant banner unfurled from the deck above us with the words “Free 19” on it-an effort to gain our freedom. My roommate and I were from New Jersey and this was Giants stadium. This lock down was going to cost us a lot of fun. So we protested. This was our cause. Beer. And women. And no one cared that a bunch of white guys from Annapolis were disrespecting the uniform in service to missing out on partying. In fact, it started a tradition. Free 19 is a phrase that lives on to this day at Annapolis.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:26 AM on May 18, 2016 [3 favorites]

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