Girl Power
May 18, 2016 11:08 PM Subscribe
What does it mean when we call women "girls"? - by Robin Wasserman
What we talk about when we talk about grown-up girl narratives: almost always, the Gone Girl girls, wounded women on the warpath. But that’s just one subset of a cultural moment that’s spilled across genre and medium, girl stories by and about women.
The last few years alone have given us grown-up rocker girls (Girl in a Band, Rat Girl, Violence Girl, Hunger Makes Me a Modern Girl), science girls (Lab Girl, The Girls of Atomic City, Rise of the Rocket Girls), WWII girls (Lilac Girls), ballet girls (Girl Through Glass), and journalist girls (Good Girls Revolt), not to mention all the grown-up girls struggling to find themselves on screen, 2 Broke Girls, New Girl, Supergirl, and, of course, Girls. There’s a Good Girl’s Guide to Sex, a Modern Girl’s Guide to Bible Study, there are Girls in White Dresses and 13 Ways of Looking at a Fat Girl, and thanks to Amy Schumer, there will soon be The Girl With the Lower Back Tattoo.
There is, it seems, a girl for nearly every kind of woman. I think it’s worth asking why.
I say "girl" like this and also use "boy" the same way, but I notice that most people do not which I've always thought was weird (and can understand why it's problematic).
posted by trackofalljades at 11:23 PM on May 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by trackofalljades at 11:23 PM on May 18, 2016 [1 favorite]
Real interesting about the rock bios. I didn't think about that but the Carrie Brownstein and Kim Gordon books. Both were pretty huge commercial hits, I even bought HMMaMG for my partner* on Amazon, while we normally give each other stuff from the thrift store, etc. I wonder what the mainstream market and editor decisions went into those titles, and how
*I always debate using partner, girlfriend or (insert first name), especially when typing. In person I switch it up pretty fluidly based on context. Girlfriend is perfectly acceptable in relaxed social situation. Partner I use at work or in formal situations, although it always makes me worried that I am appropriating some part of queer culture because I am cis/het, although my partner is cis/queer. Sometimes I just use her name, and let strangers figure out. Anyway, I'm going to finish that amazing AskMe.
posted by kittensofthenight at 12:03 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
*I always debate using partner, girlfriend or (insert first name), especially when typing. In person I switch it up pretty fluidly based on context. Girlfriend is perfectly acceptable in relaxed social situation. Partner I use at work or in formal situations, although it always makes me worried that I am appropriating some part of queer culture because I am cis/het, although my partner is cis/queer. Sometimes I just use her name, and let strangers figure out. Anyway, I'm going to finish that amazing AskMe.
posted by kittensofthenight at 12:03 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Native English speakers, especially women, collectively: please come up with and popularize a female counterpart for "guys" that can be used by people of any gender without being insulting and that generally works in the same contexts and within the same age groups as "guys" does for men. That AskMe basically shot down all the current options I know of—I really had hope that "gals" could be salvaged, but alas—and "guys and women" just sounds really awkward, even to non-native ears.
yeah that's like totally how language evolution works
Personally I'd propose standardizing to "Bruces and Sheilas" everywhere
posted by jklaiho at 12:37 AM on May 19, 2016 [12 favorites]
yeah that's like totally how language evolution works
Personally I'd propose standardizing to "Bruces and Sheilas" everywhere
posted by jklaiho at 12:37 AM on May 19, 2016 [12 favorites]
The original Middle English term referred to a child of either sex, trivia fans!
posted by GallonOfAlan at 12:47 AM on May 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by GallonOfAlan at 12:47 AM on May 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
On a more serious note, even if some new "guy" counterpart did organically emerge, I wonder if it's even possible for it to not become almost instantly corrupted somehow as long as the patriarchal power asymmetry persists? I'm not convinced that it is.
posted by jklaiho at 12:50 AM on May 19, 2016 [41 favorites]
posted by jklaiho at 12:50 AM on May 19, 2016 [41 favorites]
I have tried to eliminate referring to any female who is older than high-school age as "girl" when referring to them as an individual. I don't have a problem using "boys" or "girls" to denote "men" and "women" (like, "I'm going to the boys room" or "A lot of girls I know do, in fact, like Rush"), but to refer to an individual who is old enough to vote as a boy or a girl just sort of weirds me out these days.
Interestingly enough, I was tweeting at someone today who is the cis-male in a couple that includes a trans woman, and I started to type "I was looking for you guys" and backed it up and instead said "I was looking for you two" because I didn't want my words to have a layer of meaning I did not intend.
Language is complicated, and there are shades of meaning to a lot of our choices. I fully understand what a percentage of this country means when they start railing about "political correctness run amok". It means they aren't willing to think about words and the shades of meaning that words can carry, not just for them personally, but for others who have different life experiences from them. It takes work to choose correct words. I am SO often clumsy about this, but I am much better with it now than I was 2, 3, 5, 10 years ago.
I think I got a pretty good education about English and word choice and shades of meaning 30-odd years ago in my high school. I don't think we make nearly that much effort with this anymore in our education system. And I think that not nearly enough of my classmates were taking anything that was being taught to heart at the time; they just wanted to pass the class and get on with their lives. Expand that across a generational cohort, add in the rantings of cable news, and pretty soon you get an entire population who thinks that using the laziest word choice should always be just fine. Because, you know, if you take it wrong, there is something wrong with YOU.
Oddly, a lot of these same people will go to a building on Sunday mornings and listen enthusiastically to exegesis of passages of literature written in a foreign language millennia ago and nod enthusiastically about and be willing to quote later nuances of language and exactly what it reveals about how one should instruct others to modify their behavior about all manner of topics.... but I digress
posted by hippybear at 1:08 AM on May 19, 2016 [31 favorites]
Interestingly enough, I was tweeting at someone today who is the cis-male in a couple that includes a trans woman, and I started to type "I was looking for you guys" and backed it up and instead said "I was looking for you two" because I didn't want my words to have a layer of meaning I did not intend.
Language is complicated, and there are shades of meaning to a lot of our choices. I fully understand what a percentage of this country means when they start railing about "political correctness run amok". It means they aren't willing to think about words and the shades of meaning that words can carry, not just for them personally, but for others who have different life experiences from them. It takes work to choose correct words. I am SO often clumsy about this, but I am much better with it now than I was 2, 3, 5, 10 years ago.
I think I got a pretty good education about English and word choice and shades of meaning 30-odd years ago in my high school. I don't think we make nearly that much effort with this anymore in our education system. And I think that not nearly enough of my classmates were taking anything that was being taught to heart at the time; they just wanted to pass the class and get on with their lives. Expand that across a generational cohort, add in the rantings of cable news, and pretty soon you get an entire population who thinks that using the laziest word choice should always be just fine. Because, you know, if you take it wrong, there is something wrong with YOU.
Oddly, a lot of these same people will go to a building on Sunday mornings and listen enthusiastically to exegesis of passages of literature written in a foreign language millennia ago and nod enthusiastically about and be willing to quote later nuances of language and exactly what it reveals about how one should instruct others to modify their behavior about all manner of topics.... but I digress
posted by hippybear at 1:08 AM on May 19, 2016 [31 favorites]
jklaiho: " please come up with and popularize a female counterpart for "guys" that can be used by people of any gender without being insulting and that generally works in the same contexts and within the same age groups as "guys" does for men. "
Out of curiosity I asked my three year old daughter and she demands that this word be "hulk". I worry that her preferences will not generalise to very many adult women.
posted by langtonsant at 1:13 AM on May 19, 2016 [107 favorites]
Out of curiosity I asked my three year old daughter and she demands that this word be "hulk". I worry that her preferences will not generalise to very many adult women.
posted by langtonsant at 1:13 AM on May 19, 2016 [107 favorites]
I nominate "frood" from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy redefined as a gender-neutral alternative to "guys". Can you sass that, my hoopy froods?
posted by XMLicious at 1:14 AM on May 19, 2016 [31 favorites]
posted by XMLicious at 1:14 AM on May 19, 2016 [31 favorites]
The problem is that any new word we choose will, over time, come to acquire the same association with immaturity, childishness, etc. etc., unless society itself changes to become less patriarchal. It's not that the word "girl" has some magic negative secret code in its letters that "boy" does not; it's that society values girls less than boys and the infantilization of women is supported and encouraged by numberless pressures and drives, some hostile and some well-intentioned but misguided. In the same way that once we associated kindness and empathy with the feminine, suddenly kindness and empathy became undesirable traits for proper leaders and manly men. No sane person actually sits down and thinks about how terrible kindness is (Ayn Rand, yes, but that kind of proves my point with the qualifier), but there is that constant unseen and unsensed pressure to avoid the feminine, that the feminine is unworthy and weak.
So yeah. This isn't on English speakers to come up with new vocabulary. It's on everyone to keep doing the work that we have been and trying to change the culture itself.
posted by Scattercat at 1:44 AM on May 19, 2016 [53 favorites]
So yeah. This isn't on English speakers to come up with new vocabulary. It's on everyone to keep doing the work that we have been and trying to change the culture itself.
posted by Scattercat at 1:44 AM on May 19, 2016 [53 favorites]
peeps!
posted by dinoworx at 1:53 AM on May 19, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by dinoworx at 1:53 AM on May 19, 2016 [12 favorites]
trackofalljades: the problem with "boy" as I understand it is that among Americans it codes for African-American, with a really disturbing payload of slavery-era racism on top.
Compare the unspoken coding of "Make me a sandwich, girl," to "make me a sandwich, boy". Both are distasteful, but the former is (I think) background-level sexism while the latter is high amplification racism.
(Note that I am not American.)
posted by cstross at 1:56 AM on May 19, 2016 [17 favorites]
Compare the unspoken coding of "Make me a sandwich, girl," to "make me a sandwich, boy". Both are distasteful, but the former is (I think) background-level sexism while the latter is high amplification racism.
(Note that I am not American.)
posted by cstross at 1:56 AM on May 19, 2016 [17 favorites]
This isn't on English speakers to come up with new vocabulary.
Absolutely. A lot of this is about context anyway (on preview: what cstross said). If English speakers want to actively do anything, re-appropriating the word 'girl' might have the best chance of success. Start preferring it to refer to women in positions of power.
posted by merlynkline at 1:59 AM on May 19, 2016
Absolutely. A lot of this is about context anyway (on preview: what cstross said). If English speakers want to actively do anything, re-appropriating the word 'girl' might have the best chance of success. Start preferring it to refer to women in positions of power.
posted by merlynkline at 1:59 AM on May 19, 2016
sudo make me a sandwich
posted by hippybear at 2:00 AM on May 19, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 2:00 AM on May 19, 2016 [18 favorites]
Perhaps someday there will be a post-gender version of “boy”/“girl”, one suitable for ambiguously-presenting nonbinary individuals, mixed groups or people whose gender is unknown or (as is increasingly the case) irrelevant. That will be when we've gotten over the idea that the most salient characteristic of a human being, in all cases, is whether they're a man or a woman.
posted by acb at 2:24 AM on May 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by acb at 2:24 AM on May 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
I note that "man" is a monosyllable but "woman" is two syllables. And in traditional (sexist) English usage, the male gender was used as a universal gender-neutral signifier (I seem to recall Ursula LeGuin having some trenchant things to say about this usage back in the 60s). Even today, switching gender tags in a text has the ability to alienate and disorient the reader and can be used to spectacular effect (see for example Anne Leckie's sweep of the SF field awards two years ago with "Ancillary Justice").
This is part and parcel of "man" being seen as neutral and everything "woman" coding for weird/deviant/abnormal/inferior/subordinate. (Employment, social roles, family roles clothing ... notice how "androgynous" fashion usually means women wearing variants of male attire, rather than men in dresses and high heels?)
At least in English we have a neutral pronoun ("they"), but the singular isn't acceptable in conversation as a tag for people because "it" codes for neuter/asexual when applied to living things. But it clues us in (if we go looking for it) that our language has built-in biases. Folks whose mother tongue[*] is entirely gendered must be up shit creek without a paddle when it comes to noticing the low-level sexism uderpinning linguistic conventions.
[*] See what I did there?
posted by cstross at 2:37 AM on May 19, 2016 [18 favorites]
This is part and parcel of "man" being seen as neutral and everything "woman" coding for weird/deviant/abnormal/inferior/subordinate. (Employment, social roles, family roles clothing ... notice how "androgynous" fashion usually means women wearing variants of male attire, rather than men in dresses and high heels?)
At least in English we have a neutral pronoun ("they"), but the singular isn't acceptable in conversation as a tag for people because "it" codes for neuter/asexual when applied to living things. But it clues us in (if we go looking for it) that our language has built-in biases. Folks whose mother tongue[*] is entirely gendered must be up shit creek without a paddle when it comes to noticing the low-level sexism uderpinning linguistic conventions.
[*] See what I did there?
posted by cstross at 2:37 AM on May 19, 2016 [18 favorites]
Ever noticed how people will refer to baby/toddler boys as "little man" but never refer to baby/toddler girls as "little woman"? Like, if a small boy is in a wedding party, dressed in a cut-down version of the groomsmen's suits, everyone will comment "how cute, he looks so grown-up, such a little man" but it would just seem off, somehow, to make the same comments about the little flower girl in the cut-down version of the bridesmaid's dresses - "oh, she looks so grown, what a little woman".
And just take a look at the results for "Little Man onesie" vs. "Little Woman onesie" - the word "man" is used quite often in reference to baby boys, the word woman is NEVER used in reference to baby girls (though super-creepy references to being "dadddy's little princess" seem quite common).
It's almost like becoming a man is something to aspire to, but becoming a woman isn't.
posted by cilantro at 2:51 AM on May 19, 2016 [43 favorites]
And just take a look at the results for "Little Man onesie" vs. "Little Woman onesie" - the word "man" is used quite often in reference to baby boys, the word woman is NEVER used in reference to baby girls (though super-creepy references to being "dadddy's little princess" seem quite common).
It's almost like becoming a man is something to aspire to, but becoming a woman isn't.
posted by cilantro at 2:51 AM on May 19, 2016 [43 favorites]
Folks whose mother tongue[*] is entirely gendered must be up shit creek without a paddle
I'm aware of a lot of debate in the Spanish speaking world around this, much of which leads to the same sort of things as English speakers trying to use "xe" as a pronoun, with about as much success. OTOH for written Spanish (text/email/tweet/etc) many exploit the fact that the primary gender distinction is in the a/o ending (e.g. chica=girl, chico=boy) by writing "chic@" (etc), which seems excellent to me :)
posted by merlynkline at 2:54 AM on May 19, 2016 [9 favorites]
I'm aware of a lot of debate in the Spanish speaking world around this, much of which leads to the same sort of things as English speakers trying to use "xe" as a pronoun, with about as much success. OTOH for written Spanish (text/email/tweet/etc) many exploit the fact that the primary gender distinction is in the a/o ending (e.g. chica=girl, chico=boy) by writing "chic@" (etc), which seems excellent to me :)
posted by merlynkline at 2:54 AM on May 19, 2016 [9 favorites]
What do they use in non gendered languages like Finnish? Suomi doesn't have a word for him or her. y'all it.
posted by infini at 2:59 AM on May 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by infini at 2:59 AM on May 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
Linguistic note: woman is two syllables because it originated as a compound, 'wife-human'. Old English distinguished humans (menn) and males (weras, preserved in 'werewolf'). And as GallonofAlan notes, girl once referred to children of either sex.
posted by zompist at 3:00 AM on May 19, 2016 [23 favorites]
posted by zompist at 3:00 AM on May 19, 2016 [23 favorites]
At least in English we have a neutral pronoun ("they"), but the singular isn't acceptable in conversation as a tag for people because "it" codes for neuter/asexual when applied to living things.
“They” has become the default gender-neutral non-inanimate pronoun, mostly because the past century's worth of novel gender-neutral pronouns all have felt too weird or mannered to adopt outside of very select company that's forward-looking in the same direction and from the same vantage point as oneself.
One problem is that, were “they” to be pressed into service as a singular, it would be followed by “is” to denote this (“That's Sam. They is a virtual-reality artist.”) One problem with this is that, at least in American English, the switching of “is” and “are” is coded as a pejorative caricature of minority speech, and has problematic racial overtones. So we are stuck with pluralising anyone who is not unambiguously male or female. The intersex may or may not be godly, as in the Of Montreal song, but it is, it seems, a form of royalty.
posted by acb at 3:14 AM on May 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
“They” has become the default gender-neutral non-inanimate pronoun, mostly because the past century's worth of novel gender-neutral pronouns all have felt too weird or mannered to adopt outside of very select company that's forward-looking in the same direction and from the same vantage point as oneself.
One problem is that, were “they” to be pressed into service as a singular, it would be followed by “is” to denote this (“That's Sam. They is a virtual-reality artist.”) One problem with this is that, at least in American English, the switching of “is” and “are” is coded as a pejorative caricature of minority speech, and has problematic racial overtones. So we are stuck with pluralising anyone who is not unambiguously male or female. The intersex may or may not be godly, as in the Of Montreal song, but it is, it seems, a form of royalty.
posted by acb at 3:14 AM on May 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
Folks whose mother tongue[*] is entirely gendered must be up shit creek without a paddle when it comes to noticing the low-level sexism uderpinning linguistic conventions.
I have been wondering how gender-ambiguous individuals cope in languages like Polish, where one can't use a first-person verb without declaring oneself to be male or female.
(Then again, if you're a gender-nonconforming individual in Poland these days, verb endings may be the least of your problems.)
posted by acb at 3:16 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I have been wondering how gender-ambiguous individuals cope in languages like Polish, where one can't use a first-person verb without declaring oneself to be male or female.
(Then again, if you're a gender-nonconforming individual in Poland these days, verb endings may be the least of your problems.)
posted by acb at 3:16 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
cstross: Folks whose mother tongue[*] is entirely gendered must be up shit creek without a paddle when it comes to noticing the low-level sexism uderpinning linguistic conventions.
No kidding. Mine is not (anymore) as gendered as French and German are, but we lack the distinction between 'gender' and 'sex', as well as the distinction between female and feminine. This not only makes it harder to speak about subjects like this one, it even makes it harder to think about them.
Plus, we can't even use 'they' for 'he or she or a person for whom these categories are not appliccable' because our word for 'they' is identical to our word for 'she'. Fun times.
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:48 AM on May 19, 2016 [6 favorites]
No kidding. Mine is not (anymore) as gendered as French and German are, but we lack the distinction between 'gender' and 'sex', as well as the distinction between female and feminine. This not only makes it harder to speak about subjects like this one, it even makes it harder to think about them.
Plus, we can't even use 'they' for 'he or she or a person for whom these categories are not appliccable' because our word for 'they' is identical to our word for 'she'. Fun times.
posted by Too-Ticky at 3:48 AM on May 19, 2016 [6 favorites]
Using "are" with "they" follows the same pattern as the unambiguously correct singular "you."
posted by Nothing at 3:49 AM on May 19, 2016 [27 favorites]
posted by Nothing at 3:49 AM on May 19, 2016 [27 favorites]
So much to do with context, who is talking about/to whom. Oh man, how some get so wound up, so easy to offend someone somehow! Faster than greased lightning!
Just that every time someone slams down the its-a-(word)-not-a-(word)–card, I can't help but feel that a lot of the momentum of a convo gets killed by pedantics or whatever you call it. *
My take, girl vs. woman, summed up by the movie, Snatch. Deep.
*and yes, know the importance of using the right word for the right thing, my old man is a passionate linguist and have listened to endless lectures on the dangers of sloppy usage of the English language. But still.
posted by speakeasy at 3:50 AM on May 19, 2016
Just that every time someone slams down the its-a-(word)-not-a-(word)–card, I can't help but feel that a lot of the momentum of a convo gets killed by pedantics or whatever you call it. *
My take, girl vs. woman, summed up by the movie, Snatch. Deep.
*and yes, know the importance of using the right word for the right thing, my old man is a passionate linguist and have listened to endless lectures on the dangers of sloppy usage of the English language. But still.
posted by speakeasy at 3:50 AM on May 19, 2016
Using "are" with "they" follows the same pattern as the unambiguously correct singular "you."
Which is second-person; whereas all other instances of third-person use “is”. Which still makes the singular “they” look like a patch on the language, a not-quite-native linguistic feature.
posted by acb at 3:59 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Which is second-person; whereas all other instances of third-person use “is”. Which still makes the singular “they” look like a patch on the language, a not-quite-native linguistic feature.
posted by acb at 3:59 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
And there's diminutives. At least we have those, which allows for some level of nuance that the English language lacks; a 'jongetje' is always a small boy, a child, while a 'jongen' can definitely be 18 years old. (There's no racial connotation as far as I know.)
Unfortunately, the common/neutral word for 'girl' is not 'meid', but 'meisje'. That gives us 'meid' as an option to be used in similar ways as 'gal', but it also used to mean 'maid' so there are some unfortunate undertones of vulgarity or servitude.
If I were the boss of language around here, I would declare that the now not really existing word 'meis' be used for the common/neutral counterpart to 'boy'. 'Meisje' would then always mean a young girl, a child.
Diminutives come with problems of their own, of course. A female singer may be called a 'zangeresje', while a male singer is never a 'zangertje'. A female server can be called 'serveerstertje', but no one says 'obertje' or kelnertje' about her male colleague. And so on, and so forth...
posted by Too-Ticky at 4:02 AM on May 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
Unfortunately, the common/neutral word for 'girl' is not 'meid', but 'meisje'. That gives us 'meid' as an option to be used in similar ways as 'gal', but it also used to mean 'maid' so there are some unfortunate undertones of vulgarity or servitude.
If I were the boss of language around here, I would declare that the now not really existing word 'meis' be used for the common/neutral counterpart to 'boy'. 'Meisje' would then always mean a young girl, a child.
Diminutives come with problems of their own, of course. A female singer may be called a 'zangeresje', while a male singer is never a 'zangertje'. A female server can be called 'serveerstertje', but no one says 'obertje' or kelnertje' about her male colleague. And so on, and so forth...
posted by Too-Ticky at 4:02 AM on May 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
I hear little kids these days use "guy" for gender-unknown persons and mixed-gender groups. "Mom, is that guy a girl-guy or a boy-guy?" or "All the guys at school will be wearing princess dresses for fairy tale day" or "I met a new guy at preschool! I think her name was Jess." and most especially, "That's my guy on Minecraft, I gave her long hair." Video game avatars are always "my guy" regardless of gender, so they all the time are talking about being a girl guy.
It's occasionally amusingly dissonant to my older ears, but works pretty well and I kind of hope it catches on.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:09 AM on May 19, 2016 [63 favorites]
It's occasionally amusingly dissonant to my older ears, but works pretty well and I kind of hope it catches on.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:09 AM on May 19, 2016 [63 favorites]
It's occasionally amusingly dissonant to my older ears, but works pretty well and I kind of hope it catches on.
I use 'guy' all the time so this doesn't sound to weird to me. It's just taking it farther into a gender neutral concept. I do try to watch when I use it because I know it's gendered word for a good many people but over the years it's worked it's way to being gender neutral in my mind. It's weird how that's happened but when I read 'guy' the default is not male. It's only 'male' if it's referring to someone or a group of someones that I know for sure are male. Otherwise the default is could be male or female. It's default is neutral until there is more context.
Language is weird.
I blame the show the Electric Company that was a favorite when I was a kid. "Heeeeey you guuuuys."
They were talking to me! I'm a girl so therefor 'guys' includes girls.
posted by Jalliah at 4:34 AM on May 19, 2016 [8 favorites]
I use 'guy' all the time so this doesn't sound to weird to me. It's just taking it farther into a gender neutral concept. I do try to watch when I use it because I know it's gendered word for a good many people but over the years it's worked it's way to being gender neutral in my mind. It's weird how that's happened but when I read 'guy' the default is not male. It's only 'male' if it's referring to someone or a group of someones that I know for sure are male. Otherwise the default is could be male or female. It's default is neutral until there is more context.
Language is weird.
I blame the show the Electric Company that was a favorite when I was a kid. "Heeeeey you guuuuys."
They were talking to me! I'm a girl so therefor 'guys' includes girls.
posted by Jalliah at 4:34 AM on May 19, 2016 [8 favorites]
I've heard. "OMG, you guys!!!" used for years as the stereotypical exclamation of pumpkin-spiced drinking white girls. It's a Taylor Swiftian expression.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:10 AM on May 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by leotrotsky at 5:10 AM on May 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
Which still makes the singular “they” look like a patch on the language, a not-quite-native linguistic feature.
Heaven forbid we have any non-native linguistic features in English :P.
posted by Slothrup at 5:13 AM on May 19, 2016 [13 favorites]
Heaven forbid we have any non-native linguistic features in English :P.
posted by Slothrup at 5:13 AM on May 19, 2016 [13 favorites]
From now on I'm going to refer to all genders, all ages, singular and plural, as "guyl".
Problem solved.
posted by crazylegs at 5:16 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Problem solved.
posted by crazylegs at 5:16 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
"oh, she looks so grown, what a little woman".
I actually think the female-gender version of this isn't "little woman" but "little lady" - which is an interesting study in and of itself, both because of the class/deportment implications of the word "lady" because lady does have a male-gender counterpart word in "gentleman", which doesn't get used nearly as much.
So, tiny boys are only expected to grow up to be adult men. Tiny girls are expected to grow up not just to be adult women, but also ladies.
I do believe that the alliteration in 'little lady' plays a role here, because the words are nice to say together, but there are absolutely other implications too.'
posted by anastasiav at 5:22 AM on May 19, 2016 [6 favorites]
I actually think the female-gender version of this isn't "little woman" but "little lady" - which is an interesting study in and of itself, both because of the class/deportment implications of the word "lady" because lady does have a male-gender counterpart word in "gentleman", which doesn't get used nearly as much.
So, tiny boys are only expected to grow up to be adult men. Tiny girls are expected to grow up not just to be adult women, but also ladies.
I do believe that the alliteration in 'little lady' plays a role here, because the words are nice to say together, but there are absolutely other implications too.'
posted by anastasiav at 5:22 AM on May 19, 2016 [6 favorites]
From now on I'm going to refer to all genders, all ages, singular and plural, as "guyl".
Problem solved.
Yeah, "guyl" goes with everything.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:22 AM on May 19, 2016
Problem solved.
Yeah, "guyl" goes with everything.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:22 AM on May 19, 2016
A female singer may be called a 'zangeresje', while a male singer is never a 'zangertje'. A female server can be called 'serveerstertje', but no one says 'obertje' or kelnertje' about her male colleague.
Back when I was learning Dutch and had trouble remembering if the correct article for a particular word was de or het, I used to resort to using a diminutive to be sure I got it right (then it's always het). According to my husband I often sounded like a little munchkin living in a teeny tiny world of little doors, trees and cars, speaking affectionately if a little condescendingly about the wee greengrocer or the mini-archbishop, listening to an itty bitty tune while eating a very small pizza. But at least I was grammatically correct, dammit.
Anyway, I think one of the first questions I ever posed on AskMe was precisely about the usage of girls vs. women in English. Oh, here it is, from 6 years ago.
posted by sively at 5:23 AM on May 19, 2016 [22 favorites]
Back when I was learning Dutch and had trouble remembering if the correct article for a particular word was de or het, I used to resort to using a diminutive to be sure I got it right (then it's always het). According to my husband I often sounded like a little munchkin living in a teeny tiny world of little doors, trees and cars, speaking affectionately if a little condescendingly about the wee greengrocer or the mini-archbishop, listening to an itty bitty tune while eating a very small pizza. But at least I was grammatically correct, dammit.
Anyway, I think one of the first questions I ever posed on AskMe was precisely about the usage of girls vs. women in English. Oh, here it is, from 6 years ago.
posted by sively at 5:23 AM on May 19, 2016 [22 favorites]
I have noticed "guys" become a gender-neutral word to refer to a group of people, but the singular "guy" still seems to be entirely gendered. It would be neat to see it shift over time to becoming ungendered.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:33 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Dip Flash at 5:33 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
The gender-related term that is really grating on me lately is sir. Thank you, sir. Good bye, sir. Not in formal situations, but just casually at work all of the time. There is no equivalent for people who aren't men and that really bugs me.
Why is "ma'am" not such an equivalent?
posted by Etrigan at 5:38 AM on May 19, 2016 [8 favorites]
Why is "ma'am" not such an equivalent?
posted by Etrigan at 5:38 AM on May 19, 2016 [8 favorites]
I still use guys sometimes out of habit/inculcation, but the genderedness of it is probably what got me started using "y'all" despite not being from the South years ago.
The gender-related term that is really grating on me lately is sir. Thank you, sir. Good bye, sir. Not in formal situations, but just casually at work all of the time. There is no equivalent for people who aren't men and that really bugs me.
I have heard (and myself used) "lady" in this instance...which has its own baggage, of course.
posted by smirkette at 5:39 AM on May 19, 2016
The gender-related term that is really grating on me lately is sir. Thank you, sir. Good bye, sir. Not in formal situations, but just casually at work all of the time. There is no equivalent for people who aren't men and that really bugs me.
I have heard (and myself used) "lady" in this instance...which has its own baggage, of course.
posted by smirkette at 5:39 AM on May 19, 2016
> One problem is that, were “they” to be pressed into service as a singular, it would be followed by “is” to denote this (“That's Sam.
Given how many irregularities and exceptions the English language already contains, I think we can press one more upon it: "They are."
"Have you seen Sam? They were here a second ago."
"Sam went to get me another piece of cake, because they are awesome like that!"
posted by rtha at 5:45 AM on May 19, 2016 [11 favorites]
Given how many irregularities and exceptions the English language already contains, I think we can press one more upon it: "They are."
"Have you seen Sam? They were here a second ago."
"Sam went to get me another piece of cake, because they are awesome like that!"
posted by rtha at 5:45 AM on May 19, 2016 [11 favorites]
I actually think the female-gender version of this isn't "little woman" but "little lady" - which is an interesting study in and of itself, both because of the class/deportment implications of the word "lady" because lady does have a male-gender counterpart word in "gentleman", which doesn't get used nearly as much.
Where I was brought up it is still considered somewhat rude to refer to a woman as a woman and not 'lady'. As a child I remember being told off for using 'woman' (and 'she').
posted by Emma May Smith at 5:46 AM on May 19, 2016
Where I was brought up it is still considered somewhat rude to refer to a woman as a woman and not 'lady'. As a child I remember being told off for using 'woman' (and 'she').
posted by Emma May Smith at 5:46 AM on May 19, 2016
Perhaps someday there will be a post-gender version of “boy”/“girl”
there is, in spanish. it's "joven". and it's not any better. i (49 years old) get called it regularly. it means something along the lines of "person who isn't dressed like some tired old business fart, doesn't really look like 'us', and makes us slightly uncomfortable." grrrr.
ok i may be projecting slightly. slightly.
posted by andrewcooke at 5:46 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
there is, in spanish. it's "joven". and it's not any better. i (49 years old) get called it regularly. it means something along the lines of "person who isn't dressed like some tired old business fart, doesn't really look like 'us', and makes us slightly uncomfortable." grrrr.
ok i may be projecting slightly. slightly.
posted by andrewcooke at 5:46 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
merlynkline: OTOH for written Spanish (text/email/tweet/etc) many exploit the fact that the primary gender distinction is in the a/o ending (e.g. chica=girl, chico=boy) by writing "chic@" (etc), which seems excellent to me :)
Woke people are lately using "x" or the more easily pronounceable "e" (lxs chicxs, les chiques) because not everyone falls into the gender binary. And it gives a double dose of the vapors to the académicos of the RAE, which is an extra bonus.
posted by sukeban at 5:49 AM on May 19, 2016 [8 favorites]
Woke people are lately using "x" or the more easily pronounceable "e" (lxs chicxs, les chiques) because not everyone falls into the gender binary. And it gives a double dose of the vapors to the académicos of the RAE, which is an extra bonus.
posted by sukeban at 5:49 AM on May 19, 2016 [8 favorites]
also @ (chic@s) in more commercial stuff (x more in anarchist circles afaict).
posted by andrewcooke at 5:51 AM on May 19, 2016
posted by andrewcooke at 5:51 AM on May 19, 2016
Native English speakers, especially women, collectively: please come up with and popularize a female counterpart for "guys" that can be used by people of any gender without being insulting and that generally works in the same contexts and within the same age groups as "guys" does for men.
froods
posted by Mayor West at 5:55 AM on May 19, 2016
froods
posted by Mayor West at 5:55 AM on May 19, 2016
Just chiming in that I frequently use "guys" to refer to groups of men, women, or men & women ("hey guys, guess what?"). But not in the singular ("Look at that guy over there" and "Look at that woman over there"). When using it for a group, t really does feel gender neutral to me.
I'm much more likely to be fine with being called "girls" in a group if it's a much older (80+) person saying it. Otherwise, it kind of grates. I saw a Facebook post the other day from a female friend whose spouse is in the military - she was making the (lovely) point of how thankful she is for the other spouses' support, and she said something like - "we are doctors, lawyers, mothers, accountants, entrepreneurs, and so much more, and we are the strongest girls I know." That was kind of a record screech moment for me. It says to me there is some feeling or vibe associated with "women" that people do not want shading their expression...what is it?
posted by sallybrown at 6:03 AM on May 19, 2016 [7 favorites]
I'm much more likely to be fine with being called "girls" in a group if it's a much older (80+) person saying it. Otherwise, it kind of grates. I saw a Facebook post the other day from a female friend whose spouse is in the military - she was making the (lovely) point of how thankful she is for the other spouses' support, and she said something like - "we are doctors, lawyers, mothers, accountants, entrepreneurs, and so much more, and we are the strongest girls I know." That was kind of a record screech moment for me. It says to me there is some feeling or vibe associated with "women" that people do not want shading their expression...what is it?
posted by sallybrown at 6:03 AM on May 19, 2016 [7 favorites]
I really, really liked Lab Girl. It made me cry several times on the airplane as I was reading it. And yet, I was surprised at how few women (or girls) were actually important to Hope Jahren's story. So much of the story was about her dealing with men in various capacities. It actually made me pretty sad.
I wonder if the fact that so much of her work has had to be in reaction to what men are doing or keeping her from doing or trying to keep her from doing, or helping her do ... that made her frame her story as Lab Girl and not Lab Person, or Lab Woman. When you spend a significant chunk of a really amazing career being minimized and worked against by men, I think it could be both a symptom of both that frustration and the empowerment of succeeding despite it. "Yes, I'm just a girl. But look at my badass science, even though you say I'm just a girl!"
posted by ChuraChura at 6:11 AM on May 19, 2016 [7 favorites]
I wonder if the fact that so much of her work has had to be in reaction to what men are doing or keeping her from doing or trying to keep her from doing, or helping her do ... that made her frame her story as Lab Girl and not Lab Person, or Lab Woman. When you spend a significant chunk of a really amazing career being minimized and worked against by men, I think it could be both a symptom of both that frustration and the empowerment of succeeding despite it. "Yes, I'm just a girl. But look at my badass science, even though you say I'm just a girl!"
posted by ChuraChura at 6:11 AM on May 19, 2016 [7 favorites]
I have noticed "guys" become a gender-neutral word to refer to a group of people, but the singular "guy" still seems to be entirely gendered. It would be neat to see it shift over time to becoming ungendered.
Or it gets cooties and becomes feminised, with dudebros considering their fragile masculine honour insulted if you call them a “guy”. </pessimism>
posted by acb at 6:25 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Or it gets cooties and becomes feminised, with dudebros considering their fragile masculine honour insulted if you call them a “guy”. </pessimism>
posted by acb at 6:25 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Where I was brought up it is still considered somewhat rude to refer to a woman as a woman and not 'lady'. As a child I remember being told off for using 'woman' (and 'she').
That sounds like a hangover from a much more class-ridden version of the language, where social standing was encoded in how people are referred to. A bit like the way some languages have formal/polite and informal/rude second-person pronouns (which French has partly abolished (tutoyer meaning “to address using the informal pronoun”), Swedish completely scrapped in the du-reformen of the late 60s, and German defiantly holds on to).
posted by acb at 6:28 AM on May 19, 2016
That sounds like a hangover from a much more class-ridden version of the language, where social standing was encoded in how people are referred to. A bit like the way some languages have formal/polite and informal/rude second-person pronouns (which French has partly abolished (tutoyer meaning “to address using the informal pronoun”), Swedish completely scrapped in the du-reformen of the late 60s, and German defiantly holds on to).
posted by acb at 6:28 AM on May 19, 2016
My own relationship to the words "girl" and "woman" are complicated indeed.
For myself when I think of me as a being with a gender "girl" feels just right. Maybe because, though I don't know fore sure, I'm just kinda riffing here, but in my mind "girl" represents a pre-sexualized female. A "girl" to me is nothing perjorative, more representative of a person who has not yet decided that being "a woman" feels right.
"woman" oh god that's such a loaded term. Can I even call myself that? Why am I afraid of claiming that? You know. I'm, literally a girl. I don't shit about being a woman. I can barely make sense of the world as a girl yet, much less even claim to know what a woman experiences. Yeah Yeah Yeah, I've always been a woman, but when that experience has been buried under 36 years of repression and trying to "be a guy", let me tell ya not a whole freaking lot of my lived experiences make sense yet. I'm still trying to re-contextualize all that into what it means to have "mid life transitioning trans" if front of the word "woman".
Then I look at my body. I'm like, 2 years into puberty. basically. I am clumsily stumbling through that at best. So like, I don't know why guys are looking at me all time? why did the barista just ask for my name but not write it on the cup? am I pretty? Will I ever fit in? Where do I even fit in? Are my breasts womanly yet? Do they even qualify as "actual boobs"? The smell of my body changes throughout the month, what are those biological cycles and how does that affect how I move through the world? All these questions, few answers and a shit ton of confusion.
That to me, feels more like I am "a girl" who is becoming"a woman".
But really what I am becoming is:
"The Baroness"
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:42 AM on May 19, 2016 [16 favorites]
For myself when I think of me as a being with a gender "girl" feels just right. Maybe because, though I don't know fore sure, I'm just kinda riffing here, but in my mind "girl" represents a pre-sexualized female. A "girl" to me is nothing perjorative, more representative of a person who has not yet decided that being "a woman" feels right.
"woman" oh god that's such a loaded term. Can I even call myself that? Why am I afraid of claiming that? You know. I'm, literally a girl. I don't shit about being a woman. I can barely make sense of the world as a girl yet, much less even claim to know what a woman experiences. Yeah Yeah Yeah, I've always been a woman, but when that experience has been buried under 36 years of repression and trying to "be a guy", let me tell ya not a whole freaking lot of my lived experiences make sense yet. I'm still trying to re-contextualize all that into what it means to have "mid life transitioning trans" if front of the word "woman".
Then I look at my body. I'm like, 2 years into puberty. basically. I am clumsily stumbling through that at best. So like, I don't know why guys are looking at me all time? why did the barista just ask for my name but not write it on the cup? am I pretty? Will I ever fit in? Where do I even fit in? Are my breasts womanly yet? Do they even qualify as "actual boobs"? The smell of my body changes throughout the month, what are those biological cycles and how does that affect how I move through the world? All these questions, few answers and a shit ton of confusion.
That to me, feels more like I am "a girl" who is becoming"a woman".
But really what I am becoming is:
"The Baroness"
posted by Annika Cicada at 6:42 AM on May 19, 2016 [16 favorites]
I use dude for everyone, basically, which makes me sound like a perennial stoned teenager, but whatever.
posted by thivaia at 6:48 AM on May 19, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by thivaia at 6:48 AM on May 19, 2016 [16 favorites]
Here's some interesting data from an informal survey that shaped the way I think about the word "guys": When is "guys" gender neutral? I did a survey!
A couple of interesting results:
Almost everybody agrees that "Hey guys!" is gender-neutral, but almost nobody thinks "I'm going out with the guys" is.
50% of men think "Java guys" is gender-neutral, as in "This would never have happened if the Java guys were here." But only 25% of women think so.
posted by a car full of lions at 6:55 AM on May 19, 2016 [6 favorites]
A couple of interesting results:
Almost everybody agrees that "Hey guys!" is gender-neutral, but almost nobody thinks "I'm going out with the guys" is.
50% of men think "Java guys" is gender-neutral, as in "This would never have happened if the Java guys were here." But only 25% of women think so.
posted by a car full of lions at 6:55 AM on May 19, 2016 [6 favorites]
+1 on gender neutral "dude." Woman feels like I'm filling out a government form. Lady feels like I'm addressing a Victorian. Girl/gal is too diminutive. Plus it's just in my nature.
posted by dudemanlives at 7:05 AM on May 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by dudemanlives at 7:05 AM on May 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
So can we make "gals" gender neutral too? Can I start calling groups of mixed gender people gals?
posted by xarnop at 7:05 AM on May 19, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by xarnop at 7:05 AM on May 19, 2016 [8 favorites]
Southern American English already has a gender-neutral term for the 2nd-person plural, and I'm puzzled as to why y'all aren't using it.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:06 AM on May 19, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by zombieflanders at 7:06 AM on May 19, 2016 [12 favorites]
And, on reading my comment; it's amazing how the idea of calling a group of mixed gender people in a feminine "neutral" term suddenly sounds like an insult because that's the only context I've ever heard anyone refer to men with feminine terminology-- interesting how it can be considered neutral applying masculine to women.
posted by xarnop at 7:07 AM on May 19, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by xarnop at 7:07 AM on May 19, 2016 [14 favorites]
I used to resort to using a diminutive to be sure I got it right (then it's always het).
That's funny, because I always took the opposite strategy by finagling everything into plural form, thereby making it de.
posted by fifthrider at 7:12 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
That's funny, because I always took the opposite strategy by finagling everything into plural form, thereby making it de.
posted by fifthrider at 7:12 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
So can we make "gals" gender neutral too? Can I start calling groups of mixed gender people gals?
The Law of Linguistic Cooties will make adoption of this difficult.
posted by acb at 7:13 AM on May 19, 2016
The Law of Linguistic Cooties will make adoption of this difficult.
posted by acb at 7:13 AM on May 19, 2016
I use dude for everyone, basically, which makes me sound like a perennial stoned teenager, but whatever.
Dude, me too! I'm 34 and I call everyone dude, even my boss. Sometimes I wonder if it's an artifact from growing up with almost exclusively male friends, but it still feels really good to say, and as a monosyllabic declarative -- "Dude." "Dude!" "Dude...?!" -- it is, imo, unmatched in its efficacy.
...interesting how it can be considered neutral applying masculine to women.
Yep. Like how "gender-neutral" or "androgynous" apparel and appearance basically mean "not distinctly or stereotypically feminine." Pants can be gender-neutral, but a skirt certainly can't :: guy can be gender-neutral, but gal certainly can't.
posted by amnesia and magnets at 7:18 AM on May 19, 2016 [15 favorites]
Dude, me too! I'm 34 and I call everyone dude, even my boss. Sometimes I wonder if it's an artifact from growing up with almost exclusively male friends, but it still feels really good to say, and as a monosyllabic declarative -- "Dude." "Dude!" "Dude...?!" -- it is, imo, unmatched in its efficacy.
...interesting how it can be considered neutral applying masculine to women.
Yep. Like how "gender-neutral" or "androgynous" apparel and appearance basically mean "not distinctly or stereotypically feminine." Pants can be gender-neutral, but a skirt certainly can't :: guy can be gender-neutral, but gal certainly can't.
posted by amnesia and magnets at 7:18 AM on May 19, 2016 [15 favorites]
Farsi* doesn't have gendered pronouns. Instead, it works like Spanish* to conjugate the verb to include the subject of the sentence.
I wonder if this is how Finnish works too?
*in which I am nowhere near fluency. If anyone has better information, please speak up
posted by meemzi at 7:19 AM on May 19, 2016
I wonder if this is how Finnish works too?
*in which I am nowhere near fluency. If anyone has better information, please speak up
posted by meemzi at 7:19 AM on May 19, 2016
+1 on gender neutral "dude."</i?
“Dude” seems to be overloaded with more specific masculine archetypes than “guy”, and has been so since its 19th-century origin, when it meant something between “dandy” and “hipster”. Since then, it has referred to a succession of masculine archetypes: surfer dudes, chill stoners, leather-jacket-and-sunglasses archetypes of manly Cool, demonstratively hypermasculine bros, and such.
posted by acb at 7:20 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
“Dude” seems to be overloaded with more specific masculine archetypes than “guy”, and has been so since its 19th-century origin, when it meant something between “dandy” and “hipster”. Since then, it has referred to a succession of masculine archetypes: surfer dudes, chill stoners, leather-jacket-and-sunglasses archetypes of manly Cool, demonstratively hypermasculine bros, and such.
posted by acb at 7:20 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I have been jarred reading Ask A Manager who defaults to female gendered pronouns if the letter writer doesn't specify. It's awesome.
posted by meemzi at 7:22 AM on May 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by meemzi at 7:22 AM on May 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
I wonder if this is how Finnish works too?
*in which I am nowhere near fluency. If anyone has better information, please speak up
Kyllä jo, se on totta. Olen fraula, olet meemzi. Hän on [anyone].
Hän has no gender. I love Finnish for this.
French, yeeeeaaah. Sigh. A few years back they brought in feminine versions of professions, which were very quickly ridiculed. About the only ones that have stuck are "professeure", "directrice" (director) and "policière", kind of a sad statement on having to have massively-sanctioned power in order to be taken seriously. On the flip side of this, "assistante" is derogatory.
posted by fraula at 7:33 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
*in which I am nowhere near fluency. If anyone has better information, please speak up
Kyllä jo, se on totta. Olen fraula, olet meemzi. Hän on [anyone].
Hän has no gender. I love Finnish for this.
French, yeeeeaaah. Sigh. A few years back they brought in feminine versions of professions, which were very quickly ridiculed. About the only ones that have stuck are "professeure", "directrice" (director) and "policière", kind of a sad statement on having to have massively-sanctioned power in order to be taken seriously. On the flip side of this, "assistante" is derogatory.
posted by fraula at 7:33 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm glad this conversation came to the blue. I read the question on ask a few days ago and was really stunned that "lady" is not preferred by most women.
I deeply desire to treat people with respect. That includes people who wish to be gendered, using what I would consider inappropriate language. Therefore I am hesitant to take the ask-mefi-truth of "never say lady" (or ma'am) and apply it broadly across every interaction I have.
Luckily (apparently) english is no nearly as strict as other languages (and how fascinating is that!) so instead of saying "Hi Ladies" like I usually would, I'm more apt to say "Hi Everyone" or something like that.
I agree with what has been said above - based on our society and how it treats women, no neutral word that describes women will not take on negative connotations over time. How we treat women is as or more important than the words we use, because our actions affect the definition of those words.
Therefore, I think it is better to use non-gendered language (everyone, you, etc.) and follow that with respectful behavior, than it is to use gendered language of respect followed with respectful behaviors.
posted by rebent at 7:39 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I deeply desire to treat people with respect. That includes people who wish to be gendered, using what I would consider inappropriate language. Therefore I am hesitant to take the ask-mefi-truth of "never say lady" (or ma'am) and apply it broadly across every interaction I have.
Luckily (apparently) english is no nearly as strict as other languages (and how fascinating is that!) so instead of saying "Hi Ladies" like I usually would, I'm more apt to say "Hi Everyone" or something like that.
I agree with what has been said above - based on our society and how it treats women, no neutral word that describes women will not take on negative connotations over time. How we treat women is as or more important than the words we use, because our actions affect the definition of those words.
Therefore, I think it is better to use non-gendered language (everyone, you, etc.) and follow that with respectful behavior, than it is to use gendered language of respect followed with respectful behaviors.
posted by rebent at 7:39 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
In German, "Mädchen", the word for girl, wears "das", the gender-neutral pronoun. It isn't until the woman become married that she becomes female with "die Frau". The word for "miss" is Fräulein, and it uses "die" for the pronoun. (Genders in German were the part that made me the craziest when I was learning it.)
posted by hippybear at 7:39 AM on May 19, 2016
posted by hippybear at 7:39 AM on May 19, 2016
meemzi: Instead, it works like Spanish* to conjugate the verb to include the subject of the sentence. *in which I am nowhere near fluency. If anyone has better information, please speak up
Verbs don't take gramatical gender but nouns and adjectives do, so you would say "he vestido a los niños" ("I've dressed up the kids": "he vestido" is a compound tense of the verb vestir) but "estoy vestido/a" ("I'm dressed up": vestido/ vestida is an adjective here).
posted by sukeban at 7:45 AM on May 19, 2016
Verbs don't take gramatical gender but nouns and adjectives do, so you would say "he vestido a los niños" ("I've dressed up the kids": "he vestido" is a compound tense of the verb vestir) but "estoy vestido/a" ("I'm dressed up": vestido/ vestida is an adjective here).
posted by sukeban at 7:45 AM on May 19, 2016
Farsi* doesn't have gendered pronouns. Instead, it works like Spanish* to conjugate the verb to include the subject of the sentence.
I wonder if this is how Finnish works too?
Finnish pronouns are not gendered. You need to do explicitly specify if you absolutely positively need to indicate gender. Some professions can have the -tar/-tär suffix added to specify gender: tarjoilija/tarjoilijatar (waiter/waitress), näyttelijä/näyttelijätär (actor/actress), but you'll sound archaic as hell if you do. Also its a very small range of professions it can be done with in the first place *ohjelmoija/ohjelmoijatar for a programmer just won't work.
Finnish also happens to have several perfectly serviceable words to refer to a group that is exclusively women. Even in a professional setting I would not hesitate to talk about "johdon mimmit" ("the group-of-women at management") the same way I'd talk about, say, "johdon kundit" ("the guys at management").
posted by Soi-hah at 8:10 AM on May 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
Put me in the camp of people who could go the rest of their life never hearing the word "dude" again and being totes cool with that. Yeah I said totes. What of it. :-)
posted by Annika Cicada at 8:12 AM on May 19, 2016
posted by Annika Cicada at 8:12 AM on May 19, 2016
This and the Ask are very interesting. I usually read posts like this quietly because I'm in no place to add anything of value, but I have to add that I am another who was shocked to read several people very strongly against lady/ladies and to a lesser extent mam/ma'am. I know several people who would much rather be called 'a lady' than 'a woman'. To me lady was a sign of respect - and not in the "you're in the correct place in society and being properly lady-like" but in the "you have value as a person and I want to show you respect" way. Certainly regional, class, intent, etc. differences play too much into this for any easy answers but I'll be more careful of using lady/ladies in the future.
posted by Clinging to the Wreckage at 8:12 AM on May 19, 2016
posted by Clinging to the Wreckage at 8:12 AM on May 19, 2016
Believe me if you've been getting "ma'am-ed" since you've been a young teenager you'd be strongly against having that description applied to you. It certainly doesn't make you feel good about yourself in any way, shape or form.
posted by sardonyx at 8:17 AM on May 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by sardonyx at 8:17 AM on May 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
As bad as "ma'am" is, and as bad as "lady" is (so bad that it's used in the title of Stephen Merchant's show about a clueless would-be womanizer), even worse is the use of "young lady" for an older woman--just wait until you've had that applied to you in a group setting, as I have had done.
posted by carrienation at 8:30 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by carrienation at 8:30 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
If guy or guys doesn't catch, yinz are going to enjoy the regional alternatives.
posted by Slackermagee at 8:31 AM on May 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Slackermagee at 8:31 AM on May 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
Roller derby is another interesting subset - the governing body is called WFTDA (Women's Flat Track Derby Association) but many many many many many many leagues are "XYZ Rollergirls".
Some leagues have changed their names ("XYZ Roller Derby") to reflect the inclusion of men's and juniors' leagues under their umbrella, and some to remove the whole "Girls" thing from the equation.
(In my own personal life, I just use "y'all", even though I have never lived further south than Poughkeepsie NY)
posted by Lucinda at 8:33 AM on May 19, 2016
Some leagues have changed their names ("XYZ Roller Derby") to reflect the inclusion of men's and juniors' leagues under their umbrella, and some to remove the whole "Girls" thing from the equation.
(In my own personal life, I just use "y'all", even though I have never lived further south than Poughkeepsie NY)
posted by Lucinda at 8:33 AM on May 19, 2016
"johdon mimmit" ("the group-of-women at management") the same way I'd talk about, say, "johdon kundit" ("the guys at management").
Funny how available phrases shed light on existence of something that may not even occur in less advanced cultures where you might never see a woman in management but hey, look, the tea ladies are here.
posted by infini at 8:38 AM on May 19, 2016
Funny how available phrases shed light on existence of something that may not even occur in less advanced cultures where you might never see a woman in management but hey, look, the tea ladies are here.
posted by infini at 8:38 AM on May 19, 2016
I don't want to be called "ma'am" or "miss" by anyone, because I have zero interest in a title that is historically derived from a woman's relationship to a man. Men have always been "Mr." whether they were swinging bachelors or hitched, but the only marital-status-neutral honorific for women was only revived from its three-century slumber a scant few decades ago.
OTOH, I'm mostly OK with being called "girl" by other women, unless the intent is clearly diminutive in the manner of "young lady." On the green, men using "girl"/"girls" are almost always referring to women they want to sleep with, which is breathtakingly gross. IRL, it's something that will make me get up and walk away if a man uses it to refer to me. In either situation, I'm absolutely one of those humorless harpies who will immediately jump in to correct any male person who uses it to refer to any female person over the age of 18, for a number of reasons, but mostly because I seriously fucking love being One of Those Feminists.
posted by amnesia and magnets at 8:38 AM on May 19, 2016 [18 favorites]
OTOH, I'm mostly OK with being called "girl" by other women, unless the intent is clearly diminutive in the manner of "young lady." On the green, men using "girl"/"girls" are almost always referring to women they want to sleep with, which is breathtakingly gross. IRL, it's something that will make me get up and walk away if a man uses it to refer to me. In either situation, I'm absolutely one of those humorless harpies who will immediately jump in to correct any male person who uses it to refer to any female person over the age of 18, for a number of reasons, but mostly because I seriously fucking love being One of Those Feminists.
posted by amnesia and magnets at 8:38 AM on May 19, 2016 [18 favorites]
i think what men fail to realize about 'lady' is how it functions to police girls and women. 'ladies don't/ladies do' starts at a very young age (at least in a religious southern home) and very quickly gets folded into acceptable femininity which leads right to how we're expected to protect our 'virtue' and not cause men to hurt us. i do admit some women love the lady distinction - many women i know - but they also tend to foist the training on the younger girls in the family as soon as they can. so yes, some women will find men exceptionally polite if he refers to them as 'ladies' but it's not exactly a neutral thing.
posted by nadawi at 8:48 AM on May 19, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 8:48 AM on May 19, 2016 [14 favorites]
and yeah to me, using guys/dudes as gender neutral is just another way to 'compliment' women by referring to them as men.
posted by nadawi at 8:51 AM on May 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 8:51 AM on May 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
'ladies don't/ladies do' starts at a very young age (at least in a religious southern home) and very quickly gets folded into acceptable femininity which leads right to how we're expected to protect our 'virtue' and not cause men to hurt us.
I didn't think of lady in that way. I don't think it's used in my family or friends that way, with the exception of calling someone 'a proper lady' or similar, usually with an affected tone. But then that's a different term and one I avoid in any case. I agree that's gross as a generalization even if some people might prefer it for themselves. Thinking of extended family I know in a religious North Carolina home I can see your point clearly.
posted by Clinging to the Wreckage at 9:03 AM on May 19, 2016
I didn't think of lady in that way. I don't think it's used in my family or friends that way, with the exception of calling someone 'a proper lady' or similar, usually with an affected tone. But then that's a different term and one I avoid in any case. I agree that's gross as a generalization even if some people might prefer it for themselves. Thinking of extended family I know in a religious North Carolina home I can see your point clearly.
posted by Clinging to the Wreckage at 9:03 AM on May 19, 2016
Back when I had a small army of college students working for me, I had one who would call her peers "kids." It would be weird to be in my office and have her come in and say "there's a kid here asking if we have any job openings" only to go out and not see a ten year old, but someone the same age as my employee. She would continue to call them kids within earshot "This kid was in a few of my classes last year and he seemed okay." and it was only the male students that would get visibly annoyed by the term.
I don't know if this was intentional, but it did make me reconsider what I called my students. If someone would object to being called "kid" then the same would go for being called "girl" (or "boy"), right? I try to leave girl out of my vocabulary to varying degrees of success. Usually I end up stumbling over what word to replace it with and, like many, default to "dude" in casual situations and "person" at work.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 9:56 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I don't know if this was intentional, but it did make me reconsider what I called my students. If someone would object to being called "kid" then the same would go for being called "girl" (or "boy"), right? I try to leave girl out of my vocabulary to varying degrees of success. Usually I end up stumbling over what word to replace it with and, like many, default to "dude" in casual situations and "person" at work.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 9:56 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think there's a lot more to this essay than just the gendered terms that we use for people, but I'll nominate "folks" as a gender-neutral collective noun.
posted by ChuraChura at 10:01 AM on May 19, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by ChuraChura at 10:01 AM on May 19, 2016 [6 favorites]
there is, in spanish. it's "joven". and it's not any better.
YOUTHS
posted by poffin boffin at 10:05 AM on May 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
YOUTHS
posted by poffin boffin at 10:05 AM on May 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
What about "folks"?
posted by allthinky at 10:06 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by allthinky at 10:06 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
using guys/dudes as gender neutral is just another way to 'compliment' women by referring to them as men
Not to mention, it's gender neutral until it isn't -- compare "I need one or two of you guys to help out" to "I need one or two guys to help out."
"If the player on the left has the higher card, he should go first" was considered gender neutral language at one point.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 10:09 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Not to mention, it's gender neutral until it isn't -- compare "I need one or two of you guys to help out" to "I need one or two guys to help out."
"If the player on the left has the higher card, he should go first" was considered gender neutral language at one point.
posted by steady-state strawberry at 10:09 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
What about girlie? My grandfather could call me girlie at any age and I'd be happy to hear it. Like kiddo - It either shows a warm relationship or a real big problem between two strangers.
posted by meemzi at 10:17 AM on May 19, 2016
posted by meemzi at 10:17 AM on May 19, 2016
If some random old guy called me girlie I would prolly shank him.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:26 AM on May 19, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 10:26 AM on May 19, 2016 [14 favorites]
The problem with language is that it has different connotations for different people. And the problem with microaggressions is that they are cumulative. Any individual instance might be entirely innocent. You just don't know. That's what makes them micro. You can't point out a single instance out of context and accurately attribute a motivation to it.
All too often, I see people get so wrapped up in their pet narratives and armchair analyses that they miss the text for the subtext.
I don't like being called a girl at all, but most of the time, it just strikes me as weird, and I know it doesn't always have the same connotations it does for me. I get what the article is saying about it. It still sounds weird, though. And I have a strong personal preference for lady, but I understand that's got a lot to do with the fact that I didn't grow up in a culture where that term was used as a social control. I understand that many people did, though, and that the term has baggage for them it doesn't for me.
Really, I think the best anyone can do is to try to be sensitive to context and take some time to think about underlying assumptions and double standards. But we're all going to offend someone at some point.
posted by ernielundquist at 10:44 AM on May 19, 2016
All too often, I see people get so wrapped up in their pet narratives and armchair analyses that they miss the text for the subtext.
I don't like being called a girl at all, but most of the time, it just strikes me as weird, and I know it doesn't always have the same connotations it does for me. I get what the article is saying about it. It still sounds weird, though. And I have a strong personal preference for lady, but I understand that's got a lot to do with the fact that I didn't grow up in a culture where that term was used as a social control. I understand that many people did, though, and that the term has baggage for them it doesn't for me.
Really, I think the best anyone can do is to try to be sensitive to context and take some time to think about underlying assumptions and double standards. But we're all going to offend someone at some point.
posted by ernielundquist at 10:44 AM on May 19, 2016
For me, "ladies" is okay when used by in-group members (those being people I actually know who are peers and not, like, my boss or random politicians etc.), and there is always an undercurrent of affection and irony.
"Girlie" is just nopenopenope. Both my grandfathers died before I was born, and the only association I have with the term is its use by random condescending male shitheads.
posted by rtha at 10:49 AM on May 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
"Girlie" is just nopenopenope. Both my grandfathers died before I was born, and the only association I have with the term is its use by random condescending male shitheads.
posted by rtha at 10:49 AM on May 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
I agree about the use of "lady" to police behavior. The only contexts in which I ever hear "lady" used are:
1. In the context of behavior policing ("A lady does this or doesn't do that", or "Your behavior is subpar, young lady!")
2. In the service industry/referring to a woman with whom the speaker is not personally acquainted ("There's a lady here who has a question about those sale planters", or "Hey lady, you dropped something!")
3. Referring to a group consisting exclusively of women (or very nearly)
Anecdotal tangent:
I work in a corporate environment with a male/female ratio that hovers around an even split (comprised of a variety of professionals ranging from technical to creative to regular white collar/managerial), and I've been in meetings where there were, for example, 9 women and 1-2 men present, and the presenter (also a woman) simply referred to everyone as "ladies". No visible umbrage taken by the men in the group. If I were to speculate why that became a normalized linguistic occurrence, I'd say it was because everyone is used to having a lot of women around at every level, especially in the director-to-VP roles. (Like, the levels of management that most people have to report to.)
posted by Autumnheart at 10:53 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
1. In the context of behavior policing ("A lady does this or doesn't do that", or "Your behavior is subpar, young lady!")
2. In the service industry/referring to a woman with whom the speaker is not personally acquainted ("There's a lady here who has a question about those sale planters", or "Hey lady, you dropped something!")
3. Referring to a group consisting exclusively of women (or very nearly)
Anecdotal tangent:
I work in a corporate environment with a male/female ratio that hovers around an even split (comprised of a variety of professionals ranging from technical to creative to regular white collar/managerial), and I've been in meetings where there were, for example, 9 women and 1-2 men present, and the presenter (also a woman) simply referred to everyone as "ladies". No visible umbrage taken by the men in the group. If I were to speculate why that became a normalized linguistic occurrence, I'd say it was because everyone is used to having a lot of women around at every level, especially in the director-to-VP roles. (Like, the levels of management that most people have to report to.)
posted by Autumnheart at 10:53 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh, "lady" is hugely problematic for me because of how much I heard it used growing up as an insult thrown by PE teachers or sports coaches at individuals or teams as a way to somehow shame-motivate the males they were talking to into somehow doing better at their sport.
Just that layer of bullshit makes me never want to refer to women as "ladies" ever again, because there is such an implicit level of non-personhood-you-must-overcome-this-to-be-respected contained within that sports usage that it makes my skin crawl.
posted by hippybear at 10:56 AM on May 19, 2016 [11 favorites]
Just that layer of bullshit makes me never want to refer to women as "ladies" ever again, because there is such an implicit level of non-personhood-you-must-overcome-this-to-be-respected contained within that sports usage that it makes my skin crawl.
posted by hippybear at 10:56 AM on May 19, 2016 [11 favorites]
In German, "Mädchen", the word for girl, wears "das", the gender-neutral pronoun. It isn't until the woman become married that she becomes female with "die Frau". The word for "miss" is Fräulein, and it uses "die" for the pronoun. (Genders in German were the part that made me the craziest when I was learning it.)
Um, no. It's *das Fräulein* (not "die"). Even weirder, no?
posted by M. at 11:11 AM on May 19, 2016
Um, no. It's *das Fräulein* (not "die"). Even weirder, no?
posted by M. at 11:11 AM on May 19, 2016
Ma'am has age-related connotations that sir does not. I don't know any women my age who like to be called ma'am.
I think this is location-specific. I live in Tennessee but am from Nova Scotia. I hated being ma'amed because it made me feel old and dowdy, but down here people use it the same way they use "sir" and it doesn't seem to be age-related (except for acknowledging that you're an adult). So I use "ma'am" in Tennessee but never when I go home.
posted by joannemerriam at 11:27 AM on May 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
I think this is location-specific. I live in Tennessee but am from Nova Scotia. I hated being ma'amed because it made me feel old and dowdy, but down here people use it the same way they use "sir" and it doesn't seem to be age-related (except for acknowledging that you're an adult). So I use "ma'am" in Tennessee but never when I go home.
posted by joannemerriam at 11:27 AM on May 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
If I were to speculate why that became a normalized linguistic occurrence, I'd say it was because everyone is used to having a lot of women around at every level, especially in the director-to-VP roles.
I think there's something to that. Right out of law school, I worked in a role where I was only man in a group with two female bosses and four women on my level, and this happened often. In my current job, I'm the only man on my level, but there are male paralegals and the boss boss is a man, and I never encounter a group of me and three women getting called "ladies."
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:29 AM on May 19, 2016
I think there's something to that. Right out of law school, I worked in a role where I was only man in a group with two female bosses and four women on my level, and this happened often. In my current job, I'm the only man on my level, but there are male paralegals and the boss boss is a man, and I never encounter a group of me and three women getting called "ladies."
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:29 AM on May 19, 2016
Um, no. It's *das Fräulein* (not "die"). Even weirder, no?
It's been easily 20 years since I have practiced my German, so yes, I defer.
posted by hippybear at 11:31 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's been easily 20 years since I have practiced my German, so yes, I defer.
posted by hippybear at 11:31 AM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
i dunno, i grew up in arkansas and i can pinpoint the 12 month period where i went from 'miss' to 'ma'am' and it didn't coincide with me wearing a wedding ring. the men around me stayed sirs the whole time. i still honestly bristle when i get 'ma'am'd even though i know the person saying it is likely just minding their manners. it's a reminder that i'm an old woman assumed to belong to a man. i am over 30 and married to man, but it still rankles.
posted by nadawi at 11:50 AM on May 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 11:50 AM on May 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
Oh, "lady" is hugely problematic for me because of how much I heard it used growing up as an insult thrown by PE teachers or sports coaches at individuals or teams as a way to somehow shame-motivate the males they were talking to into somehow doing better at their sport.
I hope you're not trying to say that women shouldn't use the term because some men use it to gender police other men. Because there probably isn't a feminine coded term that isn't used that way.
If it sounds creepy to you, that is a perfectly good reason for you not to use the term, but FYI, it is very very rare for women to use the term ladies in that sense. Personally, that usage is so self-evidently stupid that I don't give it much consideration at all.
posted by ernielundquist at 12:08 PM on May 19, 2016
I hope you're not trying to say that women shouldn't use the term because some men use it to gender police other men. Because there probably isn't a feminine coded term that isn't used that way.
If it sounds creepy to you, that is a perfectly good reason for you not to use the term, but FYI, it is very very rare for women to use the term ladies in that sense. Personally, that usage is so self-evidently stupid that I don't give it much consideration at all.
posted by ernielundquist at 12:08 PM on May 19, 2016
The 70s and 80s were a bastion of sexism and gender-based shaming for men. Fucked me up pretty deeply so coming out as gay in 1990 was such a huge step of courage for me that it required alienating nearly everyone I knew just to know I was going to be safe. YMMV.
posted by hippybear at 12:14 PM on May 19, 2016
posted by hippybear at 12:14 PM on May 19, 2016
I find the lack of a good equivalent to guys, lads, or blokes very vexing. I don't use girls or ladies much, since most of my friends are neither children nor aristocracy, so I mostly use names, even if it irks me a little every time. Other people referring to me as girl is bearable in some contexts, lady effectively never.
posted by Dysk at 12:18 PM on May 19, 2016
posted by Dysk at 12:18 PM on May 19, 2016
It's almost like becoming a man is something to aspire to, but becoming a woman isn't.
I don't think there's any "almost" about it -- you've hit the nail on the head. Being a man is different from happening to be a man. Being a man connotes having successfully learned to display the characteristics we have come to expect from a REAL man. [Go ahead and Google "real man." Ugh.] Being a man absolutely *is* aspirational.
Learning to "be a man" means accumulating knowledge of how to be and what to do. Learn to do and be certain things and you are A Man, and being A Man = GOOD.
But the pathway to learning how to exist as a woman -- because there's no metaphorical equivalent to "be a man" for women, unless you want to include "be a lady," and that's a whole 'nother discussion -- learning how to exist as a woman is about learning all of the things you are not supposed to do, all of the things you are not supposed to be -- or appear to be -- because doing or being or appearing to do or be those things make you a bad woman.
So yeah, becoming a man is something we tell boys they should aspire to. Whereas all of the messages sent to girls about being a woman are more like "Okay now, don't fuck this up," followed by an extremely long list of contradictory DOs and DON'Ts with various subclauses and exceptions that it would take an entire legal team to put in writing, and which basically amount to "Haha, but really, there's no way you can't fuck this up. Just kidding!"
posted by mudpuppie at 12:20 PM on May 19, 2016 [17 favorites]
I don't think there's any "almost" about it -- you've hit the nail on the head. Being a man is different from happening to be a man. Being a man connotes having successfully learned to display the characteristics we have come to expect from a REAL man. [Go ahead and Google "real man." Ugh.] Being a man absolutely *is* aspirational.
Learning to "be a man" means accumulating knowledge of how to be and what to do. Learn to do and be certain things and you are A Man, and being A Man = GOOD.
But the pathway to learning how to exist as a woman -- because there's no metaphorical equivalent to "be a man" for women, unless you want to include "be a lady," and that's a whole 'nother discussion -- learning how to exist as a woman is about learning all of the things you are not supposed to do, all of the things you are not supposed to be -- or appear to be -- because doing or being or appearing to do or be those things make you a bad woman.
So yeah, becoming a man is something we tell boys they should aspire to. Whereas all of the messages sent to girls about being a woman are more like "Okay now, don't fuck this up," followed by an extremely long list of contradictory DOs and DON'Ts with various subclauses and exceptions that it would take an entire legal team to put in writing, and which basically amount to "Haha, but really, there's no way you can't fuck this up. Just kidding!"
posted by mudpuppie at 12:20 PM on May 19, 2016 [17 favorites]
M.: It's *das Fräulein* (not "die"). Even weirder, no?
It becomes less weird when you realise that both 'Mädchen' and 'Fräulein' are diminutives, and those are always neuter in German (and Dutch). Fräulein is the diminutive form of Frau, and Frau is a 'die' word.
posted by Too-Ticky at 12:31 PM on May 19, 2016
It becomes less weird when you realise that both 'Mädchen' and 'Fräulein' are diminutives, and those are always neuter in German (and Dutch). Fräulein is the diminutive form of Frau, and Frau is a 'die' word.
posted by Too-Ticky at 12:31 PM on May 19, 2016
Mod note: Couple of comments deleted. Please drop the circular parsing of hippybear's phrasing and let the conversation move on.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:49 PM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:49 PM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Lately, I've been using "humans" as my second-person plural. Like in rehearsal, "All right, humans, let's start from the top of the scene." Works for me, at least. I usually go with that or "folks" or "y'all."
posted by lauranesson at 1:56 PM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by lauranesson at 1:56 PM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's *das Fräulein* (not "die"). Even weirder, no?
Dude, you’re not the first to remark that - here’s Mark Twain on "The Awful German Language":
By the way you don’t really become a Frau when married only, Frau is the standard, when I moved to Germany I learnt it’s not really cool to use Fräulein other than jokingly/affectionately, and definitely not Mädchen for anyone past teenage years or other than "drinks with my girls" kind of context (or, "Mädels" but that may be regional).
And, I later learnt, there’s actually a law on that (of course!) they specifically banned it, at least its official/burocratic use: Since the 1970s, Fräulein has come to be used less often, and was banned from official use in West Germany in 1972 by the Minister of the Interior.
Pedantic/fascinating details in the German version: the first decision that the form of address should be "Frau" for all adult women was actually in 1955 by Gerard Schröder, responding to a request by a parliamentary group to abolish the designation of "Fräulein" as official title/address form for unmarried women. And the 1972 text specifically says (roughly translated):
"It is time to take into account in the official language the equality between men and women and the contemporary self-image of women with regard to their position in society. Thus, it is no longer appropriate to proceed in the official language with addressing female adults in a different way than what has always been common for adult males. [...] In official parlance, therefore, the form of address Frau is to be used for addressing female adults".
Now IF ONLY the Brits had been more German and fixed the problem of the guys/dudes/lads/blokes etc. equivalent by ROYAL DECREE we wouldn’t be here arguing about it today.
posted by bitteschoen at 2:15 PM on May 19, 2016 [8 favorites]
Dude, you’re not the first to remark that - here’s Mark Twain on "The Awful German Language":
In German, a young lady has no sex, while a turnip has. Think what overwrought reverence that shows for the turnip, and what callous disrespect for the girl. See how it looks in print -- I translate this from a conversation in one of the best of the German Sunday-school books:
"Gretchen: Wilhelm, where is the turnip?
Wilhelm: She has gone to the kitchen.
Gretchen: Where is the accomplished and beautiful English maiden?
Wilhelm: It has gone to the opera."
By the way you don’t really become a Frau when married only, Frau is the standard, when I moved to Germany I learnt it’s not really cool to use Fräulein other than jokingly/affectionately, and definitely not Mädchen for anyone past teenage years or other than "drinks with my girls" kind of context (or, "Mädels" but that may be regional).
And, I later learnt, there’s actually a law on that (of course!) they specifically banned it, at least its official/burocratic use: Since the 1970s, Fräulein has come to be used less often, and was banned from official use in West Germany in 1972 by the Minister of the Interior.
Pedantic/fascinating details in the German version: the first decision that the form of address should be "Frau" for all adult women was actually in 1955 by Gerard Schröder, responding to a request by a parliamentary group to abolish the designation of "Fräulein" as official title/address form for unmarried women. And the 1972 text specifically says (roughly translated):
"It is time to take into account in the official language the equality between men and women and the contemporary self-image of women with regard to their position in society. Thus, it is no longer appropriate to proceed in the official language with addressing female adults in a different way than what has always been common for adult males. [...] In official parlance, therefore, the form of address Frau is to be used for addressing female adults".
Now IF ONLY the Brits had been more German and fixed the problem of the guys/dudes/lads/blokes etc. equivalent by ROYAL DECREE we wouldn’t be here arguing about it today.
posted by bitteschoen at 2:15 PM on May 19, 2016 [8 favorites]
Lately, I've been using "humans" as my second-person plural.
I've been doing this too. I think it makes me sound kind of awkward, but I'm putting up with that because it also makes me sound kind of like a sweet robot. (I did get a bit of a cross response when I called my partner "human female", but she let it go because of the robot thing.)
posted by IAmUnaware at 3:53 PM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've been doing this too. I think it makes me sound kind of awkward, but I'm putting up with that because it also makes me sound kind of like a sweet robot. (I did get a bit of a cross response when I called my partner "human female", but she let it go because of the robot thing.)
posted by IAmUnaware at 3:53 PM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I just realized I use the word "everyone" almost all the time.
posted by Annika Cicada at 4:51 PM on May 19, 2016
posted by Annika Cicada at 4:51 PM on May 19, 2016
> Southern American English already has a gender-neutral term for the 2nd-person plural, and I'm puzzled as to why y'all aren't using it
It doesn't feel neutral to me. Rather, it's gender-neutral, but the use... I hear it mostly when it's being used to chastise people on MeFi. "Y'all need..."
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:17 PM on May 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
It doesn't feel neutral to me. Rather, it's gender-neutral, but the use... I hear it mostly when it's being used to chastise people on MeFi. "Y'all need..."
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:17 PM on May 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
I am nearing way too old, and yet I pass for a teenager, live alone and am caregiver for no one and can eat ramen for dinner. Ain't no way I'm a damn "woman" except for having hit puberty. Women are practical caregiving adults. I skate past the bare minimum of adult standards and otherwise am still living the life of a 22-year-old. I can't pass for a "woman" in my own head or in real life. Come on.
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:47 PM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 5:47 PM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Do you feel that "man" has the same necessary quality of being a caregiver?
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:55 PM on May 19, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by The corpse in the library at 5:55 PM on May 19, 2016 [8 favorites]
I recently turned forty which makes the whole girl thing weird for me. I refer to myself, tongue firmly in cheek, as lady, but bristle when anyone else does. I've always hated the word "woman." It feels too earthy (really not my thing) and too uterus-y (still sort of uncomfortable and perplexing to have) to describe the way I feel about myself.
posted by thivaia at 9:47 PM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by thivaia at 9:47 PM on May 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Do you feel that "man" has the same necessary quality of being a caregiver?
In our culture? Heck no, it does not. Though there's probably at least some "breadwinner" connotations among other guys, I don't think there's a whole lot of people doubting men are men in the same way. Females are divided into maiden, mother, or crone (and heaven help you if you skip the mother bit), men aren't divided into any roles based on their relation to parents/partner/dependents. They just are, I guess?
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:39 PM on May 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
In our culture? Heck no, it does not. Though there's probably at least some "breadwinner" connotations among other guys, I don't think there's a whole lot of people doubting men are men in the same way. Females are divided into maiden, mother, or crone (and heaven help you if you skip the mother bit), men aren't divided into any roles based on their relation to parents/partner/dependents. They just are, I guess?
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:39 PM on May 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
jenfullmoon: Women are practical caregiving adults.
...What? No, we're not, not as a group. Some of us are, some of us aren't. But please don't try to feed me the same crap that society has been feeding me all my life, okay?
posted by Too-Ticky at 12:33 AM on May 20, 2016 [9 favorites]
...What? No, we're not, not as a group. Some of us are, some of us aren't. But please don't try to feed me the same crap that society has been feeding me all my life, okay?
posted by Too-Ticky at 12:33 AM on May 20, 2016 [9 favorites]
I think jennfullmoon spoke a little broadly but I completely understand the internal friction towards thinking of ones self as a woman.
posted by Annika Cicada at 4:59 AM on May 20, 2016
posted by Annika Cicada at 4:59 AM on May 20, 2016
So I use dude and chick. For groups of people I use y'all (that always got some snickers from the Canadians I used to work with, but I just shot back with an Eh!). For a singular non-gendered pronoun I use they (with "are").
The example that kept popping up in my mind was the prosecutor from Making a Murderer actually refers to her (a 25 year old woman) as a "young girl" during the trial! He did self-correct to young lady but I highly doubt he called her girl on accident. And that only works because society thinks it ok to refer to grown women as girls. If that wasn't a normal ok thing to do, that wouldn't be a strategy to be employed by prosecutors.
I will absolutely correct anyone who uses girl/girls to refer to woman/women. I absolutely do not want to be called a girl, and young lady always annoyed me too. Both feel like they are infantalizing and make me feel like I am not being taken seriously. I am a 30 year old woman, who has been in her profession for coming up on 8 years. Don't treat me like/call me a "young lady". Show me the respect I deserve.
And as a tom-boy* growing up I absolutely hated the "be a lady!" stuff (not from my parents thank god but others). Other than that, I am a little taken aback when I am called lady because it is usually by significantly younger people refering to me as an older person ("move over so that lady can get by"). Its weird but not terrible.
*wtf that there is a separate name for girls who don't act like ladies. WHAT'S WITH ALL THE GENDER POLICING, SOCIETY? HUH?
posted by LizBoBiz at 6:57 AM on May 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
The example that kept popping up in my mind was the prosecutor from Making a Murderer actually refers to her (a 25 year old woman) as a "young girl" during the trial! He did self-correct to young lady but I highly doubt he called her girl on accident. And that only works because society thinks it ok to refer to grown women as girls. If that wasn't a normal ok thing to do, that wouldn't be a strategy to be employed by prosecutors.
I will absolutely correct anyone who uses girl/girls to refer to woman/women. I absolutely do not want to be called a girl, and young lady always annoyed me too. Both feel like they are infantalizing and make me feel like I am not being taken seriously. I am a 30 year old woman, who has been in her profession for coming up on 8 years. Don't treat me like/call me a "young lady". Show me the respect I deserve.
And as a tom-boy* growing up I absolutely hated the "be a lady!" stuff (not from my parents thank god but others). Other than that, I am a little taken aback when I am called lady because it is usually by significantly younger people refering to me as an older person ("move over so that lady can get by"). Its weird but not terrible.
*wtf that there is a separate name for girls who don't act like ladies. WHAT'S WITH ALL THE GENDER POLICING, SOCIETY? HUH?
posted by LizBoBiz at 6:57 AM on May 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
As people have pointed out, the problem is bigger than any word can fix, because the problem lies in the sociocultural system. On the other hand, in order to change that system, we have to deploy symbols -- such as words -- since these are the currency of social relationships. (One example being: actual currency.)
PROJECT: RECLAIM.
I've felt a lot better about my place in the world since I made a project of reclaiming words like LADIES and MA'AM. Useful role models and contexts for me have included:
LADIES:
-Sleater-Kinney
-my local crowd of belligerent harridans.
MA'AM:
-the South Side of Chicago
-the South (US).
BENEFITS:
- The obvious, well-known benefit: when I attach positive meaning to terms that used to make me feel stigmatized, it helps me not find female gender stigmatizing. (Always an ongoing project; but massive strides made.)
-A less obvious benefit: these terms are forms for experiencing not just gender but race, class, and age. So they've helped me rework my experience of those as well. (Lots of renegotiating. Watching other people's practices, dipping toes in water. Realizing in many cases it's not possible not to choose; and then watching how the effects of each choice play out.)
posted by feral_goldfish at 6:40 PM on May 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
PROJECT: RECLAIM.
I've felt a lot better about my place in the world since I made a project of reclaiming words like LADIES and MA'AM. Useful role models and contexts for me have included:
LADIES:
-Sleater-Kinney
-my local crowd of belligerent harridans.
MA'AM:
-the South Side of Chicago
-the South (US).
BENEFITS:
- The obvious, well-known benefit: when I attach positive meaning to terms that used to make me feel stigmatized, it helps me not find female gender stigmatizing. (Always an ongoing project; but massive strides made.)
-A less obvious benefit: these terms are forms for experiencing not just gender but race, class, and age. So they've helped me rework my experience of those as well. (Lots of renegotiating. Watching other people's practices, dipping toes in water. Realizing in many cases it's not possible not to choose; and then watching how the effects of each choice play out.)
posted by feral_goldfish at 6:40 PM on May 20, 2016 [1 favorite]
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