It's a Boy Thing
May 26, 2016 4:44 PM Subscribe
Couples who have sons are more likely to stay together. But why?
‘Yeah, I probably would feel more of a sense of responsibility if we had a son.’
There's some kind of imbalance when most fathers are willing to make more emotional effort for sons rather than daughters because the dads feel an intuitive understanding of boys, and most mothers provide roughly equal effort to sons and daughters even when that intuitive "getting it" is lacking. If true--does that put daughters at a systemic disadvantage? Does it mean that daughters are more likely to make extra effort to connect? I don't know, but I don't think I like the implications. Or the “mini-me phenomenon.” Or this article. That said, I appreciate you bringing it here for discussion, R.F. Simpson. Thank you.
posted by MonkeyToes at 5:12 PM on May 26, 2016 [18 favorites]
There's some kind of imbalance when most fathers are willing to make more emotional effort for sons rather than daughters because the dads feel an intuitive understanding of boys, and most mothers provide roughly equal effort to sons and daughters even when that intuitive "getting it" is lacking. If true--does that put daughters at a systemic disadvantage? Does it mean that daughters are more likely to make extra effort to connect? I don't know, but I don't think I like the implications. Or the “mini-me phenomenon.” Or this article. That said, I appreciate you bringing it here for discussion, R.F. Simpson. Thank you.
posted by MonkeyToes at 5:12 PM on May 26, 2016 [18 favorites]
I don't know, lately I feel like the answer to almost all questions about gender is "because men are allowed to be selfish and emotionally lazy, so they check out if it's not fun enough".
In fairness, I am absolutely my dad's AFAB child and he sure never cheaped out emotionally with me. He also did an equal share of the housework and cares for my mom now that she requires a lot of help. I guess I feel like Bobby Hill in the comic - I think I'll send my dad an email.
posted by Frowner at 5:19 PM on May 26, 2016 [119 favorites]
In fairness, I am absolutely my dad's AFAB child and he sure never cheaped out emotionally with me. He also did an equal share of the housework and cares for my mom now that she requires a lot of help. I guess I feel like Bobby Hill in the comic - I think I'll send my dad an email.
posted by Frowner at 5:19 PM on May 26, 2016 [119 favorites]
Grace Malonai, a clinical therapist in San Francisco, observes that men tend to be especially gentle with their young sons, but they grow more critical as the boys get older. “There just seems to be more expectation and disappointment if they are not behaving the way they ought to..."
[...and earlier...]
He admits, however, that it has been a little hard not to be able to share his love of baseball with his child. “When I was growing up, going to a ballgame with my father was a really important experience. It was the closest thing that I saw to a religious feeling in him,” he says. “I’ve taken my daughter to ballgames, but she doesn’t really know the difference between basketball and baseball. If she was a boy, I have this feeling that it would’ve been easier to interest her in those things. It would be something that we could have in common. But I’ve done my best to let it go.”
Heaven help the hypothetical son who was just as disinterested in baseball as real daughter.
My main reflections on the piece: it's called toxic masculinity for a reason, and yet another smack upside the head of the rippling effects on and on and on from acculturated massive discrepancies in emotional labor performed.
posted by Drastic at 5:26 PM on May 26, 2016 [66 favorites]
[...and earlier...]
He admits, however, that it has been a little hard not to be able to share his love of baseball with his child. “When I was growing up, going to a ballgame with my father was a really important experience. It was the closest thing that I saw to a religious feeling in him,” he says. “I’ve taken my daughter to ballgames, but she doesn’t really know the difference between basketball and baseball. If she was a boy, I have this feeling that it would’ve been easier to interest her in those things. It would be something that we could have in common. But I’ve done my best to let it go.”
Heaven help the hypothetical son who was just as disinterested in baseball as real daughter.
My main reflections on the piece: it's called toxic masculinity for a reason, and yet another smack upside the head of the rippling effects on and on and on from acculturated massive discrepancies in emotional labor performed.
posted by Drastic at 5:26 PM on May 26, 2016 [66 favorites]
I’ve taken my daughter to ballgames, but she doesn’t really know the difference between basketball and baseball. If she was a boy, I have this feeling that it would’ve been easier to interest her in those things. It would be something that we could have in common. But I’ve done my best to let it go.”
I'm guessing that this guy is way overestimating how interested a generic 8 year old boy would be in a baseball game. Drew Magary is constantly complaining about how his kids (a girl and two boys) don't ever want to watch sports or seem to care about them in any way.
posted by palindromic at 5:30 PM on May 26, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'm guessing that this guy is way overestimating how interested a generic 8 year old boy would be in a baseball game. Drew Magary is constantly complaining about how his kids (a girl and two boys) don't ever want to watch sports or seem to care about them in any way.
posted by palindromic at 5:30 PM on May 26, 2016 [5 favorites]
I don't know, lately I feel like the answer to almost all questions about gender is "because men are allowed to be selfish and emotionally lazy, so they check out if it's not fun enough".
Yes, but structural sexism is also almost always the answer. The article makes a case that women parent children of either gender close to equally and men prefer to parent boys*, but there's also the possibility that structural sexism makes it easier to raise boys, reducing marital stress.
*From the article, tucked in between infuriating anecdotes: "Results from the most recent poll, in 2011, were startlingly similar to those from the first: Americans said they favour boys over girls by a margin of 12 percentage points. This preference is driven mainly by men; women are largely agnostic ... In married families with two children of the same sex, fathers with sons spent between 22 and 27 minutes more per day on child care, and said they had less leisure time than those with daughters. Married mothers, on the other hand, spent only around six minutes more per day with a daughter than a son"
posted by gingerest at 5:30 PM on May 26, 2016 [18 favorites]
Yes, but structural sexism is also almost always the answer. The article makes a case that women parent children of either gender close to equally and men prefer to parent boys*, but there's also the possibility that structural sexism makes it easier to raise boys, reducing marital stress.
*From the article, tucked in between infuriating anecdotes: "Results from the most recent poll, in 2011, were startlingly similar to those from the first: Americans said they favour boys over girls by a margin of 12 percentage points. This preference is driven mainly by men; women are largely agnostic ... In married families with two children of the same sex, fathers with sons spent between 22 and 27 minutes more per day on child care, and said they had less leisure time than those with daughters. Married mothers, on the other hand, spent only around six minutes more per day with a daughter than a son"
posted by gingerest at 5:30 PM on May 26, 2016 [18 favorites]
I remember growing up, my father was constantly trying to get me interested in sports. My personal reaction was and remains, "So... you run around a lot and get sweaty and tired, and then afterward you're sore and exhausted and angry. And you do this voluntarily? Instead of staying inside where there's air conditioning, lemonade, and books? Hunh. Interesting concept. I'll pass."
Meanwhile, my sister was participating in a minimum of two organized sports leagues at any given time and always trying to get Dad to practice with her, but nope. Doesn't count.
Feh.
posted by Scattercat at 5:32 PM on May 26, 2016 [47 favorites]
Meanwhile, my sister was participating in a minimum of two organized sports leagues at any given time and always trying to get Dad to practice with her, but nope. Doesn't count.
Feh.
posted by Scattercat at 5:32 PM on May 26, 2016 [47 favorites]
There may be too many variables here to draw reliable conclusions, but I do know girls are subtly (and sometimes not-so-subtly) disliked by many people. There's no doubt in my mind that that could cause tension for and between parents. I would also guess that dealing with it from society at large could bring tension into a household. Anything that causes tension can lead to divorce.
In my own childhood, my parents had to swoop in and protect me from gender bias all the damn time. Maybe it's because I grew up in rural parts of what I would call the Sexist South, but I had multiple teachers who disliked girls and loved boys. Most of those teachers were women, too.
I want to believe that sort of gender bias isn't quite so common now, but I suspect that's wishful thinking. While getting my hair cut a few years ago, my stylist was talking about her two small children, a boy and a girl. She blatantly said she preferred her son because "Boys are just fun, you know?" I didn't give her my business after that. I feel sorry for her daughter. I feel sorry for her. I feel sorry for parents of daughters who have to hear and face this toxic BS.
Sexism is exhausting. It affects both girls and boys, but in different ways. A boy in a classroom might have a teacher who doesn't respect how boys develop fine motor skills later in life (and therefore thinks boys aren't as good in school), or who automatically labels him ADHD the second he wriggles around. With girls, the focus is a little different, though. It's much more clearly about gender, usually about how girls are inferior in some way, when compared to boys. People walk around with these beliefs; they act on them. I'm sure they affect marriages in a million little ways.
posted by iamfantastikate at 5:50 PM on May 26, 2016 [54 favorites]
In my own childhood, my parents had to swoop in and protect me from gender bias all the damn time. Maybe it's because I grew up in rural parts of what I would call the Sexist South, but I had multiple teachers who disliked girls and loved boys. Most of those teachers were women, too.
I want to believe that sort of gender bias isn't quite so common now, but I suspect that's wishful thinking. While getting my hair cut a few years ago, my stylist was talking about her two small children, a boy and a girl. She blatantly said she preferred her son because "Boys are just fun, you know?" I didn't give her my business after that. I feel sorry for her daughter. I feel sorry for her. I feel sorry for parents of daughters who have to hear and face this toxic BS.
Sexism is exhausting. It affects both girls and boys, but in different ways. A boy in a classroom might have a teacher who doesn't respect how boys develop fine motor skills later in life (and therefore thinks boys aren't as good in school), or who automatically labels him ADHD the second he wriggles around. With girls, the focus is a little different, though. It's much more clearly about gender, usually about how girls are inferior in some way, when compared to boys. People walk around with these beliefs; they act on them. I'm sure they affect marriages in a million little ways.
posted by iamfantastikate at 5:50 PM on May 26, 2016 [54 favorites]
all of this is soooooo frustrating I just want to move to my lesbian commune right now and raise little amazons
posted by gusandrews at 5:55 PM on May 26, 2016 [27 favorites]
posted by gusandrews at 5:55 PM on May 26, 2016 [27 favorites]
I had wondered before reading the article if possibly it was because men can get their emotional needs met by daughters and so don't feel the need to stay married. I don't (necessarily) mean sexual needs but rather the desire to be someone's hero or knight in shining armor. I think many daughters worship their fathers in a way that wives can't or won't-- unconditionally and without equal footing. I think this is the same impulse that leads men to choose younger, less experienced women for their second or third partners. Hero worship is a potent drug.
As I said this was the working hypothesis I had and the article doesn't reflect that line of thinking.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:22 PM on May 26, 2016 [8 favorites]
As I said this was the working hypothesis I had and the article doesn't reflect that line of thinking.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:22 PM on May 26, 2016 [8 favorites]
I don't know, lately I feel like the answer to almost all questions about gender is "because men are allowed to be selfish and emotionally lazy, so they check out if it's not fun enough".
Ugh, yeah. I could feel my ire rising as I read further down, and the thought "so it's because men are selfish" kept bubbling up after every new idea presented.
I am sure there is also covert sexism mixed in (there has to be! Why can't the daughter be a father's mini-me?) and agree there is problem that girls aren't liked and often actively disliked.* But I was surprised how much of the answer was essentially because many men just prefer boys, and that cascaded into relationship and family life in horrible ways. I guess it's shittiness all the way down. I just am shocked at how fucking deep the toxic attitudes run.
*And I can't help to wonder how much "mean girl" teenage behavior is all the hate and dislike of girls by society at large being pointed externally at one another.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 6:33 PM on May 26, 2016 [23 favorites]
Ugh, yeah. I could feel my ire rising as I read further down, and the thought "so it's because men are selfish" kept bubbling up after every new idea presented.
I am sure there is also covert sexism mixed in (there has to be! Why can't the daughter be a father's mini-me?) and agree there is problem that girls aren't liked and often actively disliked.* But I was surprised how much of the answer was essentially because many men just prefer boys, and that cascaded into relationship and family life in horrible ways. I guess it's shittiness all the way down. I just am shocked at how fucking deep the toxic attitudes run.
*And I can't help to wonder how much "mean girl" teenage behavior is all the hate and dislike of girls by society at large being pointed externally at one another.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 6:33 PM on May 26, 2016 [23 favorites]
Why can't the daughter be a father's mini-me?
Why can't children be who they are?
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:36 PM on May 26, 2016 [26 favorites]
Why can't children be who they are?
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:36 PM on May 26, 2016 [26 favorites]
Like, no part of this rings true to me even the slightest bit. I have a boy and a girl. Both are fun. Both are interesting. Both are difficult. I love both more than I can say. I have a better understanding of boys than girls because I've been a boy and have never been a girl, but I try my hardest to do both jobs as well as I can. Neither child is a mini-me. I have literally no fucking idea what this is about.
posted by langtonsant at 6:37 PM on May 26, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by langtonsant at 6:37 PM on May 26, 2016 [19 favorites]
Like, no part of this rings true to me even the slightest bit. I have a boy and a girl. Both are fun. Both are interesting. Both are difficult. I love both more than I can say. I have a better understanding of boys than girls because I've been a boy and have never been a girl, but I try my hardest to do both jobs as well as I can. Neither child is a mini-me. I have literally no fucking idea what this is about.
OK then. Good for you. Then you can breathe a sigh of relief that this article isn't talking about you.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 6:39 PM on May 26, 2016 [24 favorites]
OK then. Good for you. Then you can breathe a sigh of relief that this article isn't talking about you.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 6:39 PM on May 26, 2016 [24 favorites]
>Why can't the daughter be a father's mini-me?
Why can't children be who they are?
I don't disagree at all. But if this is a thing parents do, why does gender matter? I mean, I know the answer. But it is still disappointing to see.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 6:40 PM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
Why can't children be who they are?
I don't disagree at all. But if this is a thing parents do, why does gender matter? I mean, I know the answer. But it is still disappointing to see.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 6:40 PM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
Except that the rest of the thread is already in the "men are emotionally selfish parents" phase. I care about parenting. I care about my kids. What other people believe about how fathers parent their kids IS relevant to me because it poisons the attitudes that other people present to me and it shapes the way they interact with me. This "it isn't about you" thing that people say whenever someone objects to this sort of bollocks is a total lie. If you perceive me as a member of a category and then say nasty things about that category, then it is about me
posted by langtonsant at 6:42 PM on May 26, 2016 [41 favorites]
posted by langtonsant at 6:42 PM on May 26, 2016 [41 favorites]
That last paragraph is bizarre. After so much recounting of infuriating things, both anecdotal and statistical, the essay concludes by saying: yeah well parenting is hard and complicated and gender isn't really a big deal.
It's like, did you even read your own article? Or did some editor slap that on for you?
posted by feral_goldfish at 6:45 PM on May 26, 2016 [14 favorites]
It's like, did you even read your own article? Or did some editor slap that on for you?
posted by feral_goldfish at 6:45 PM on May 26, 2016 [14 favorites]
It doesn't help that one piece of family lore that has burned itself into my psyche was at and for some time following my birth, how upset and shaken my father was that I was a girl. I just assume that was because he was a backwards troglodyte. I had no idea that this attitude wasn't a "cute" annecdote told around the table during the holidays, but actually a relatively common place.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 6:47 PM on May 26, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by [insert clever name here] at 6:47 PM on May 26, 2016 [5 favorites]
There seams to be more animosity in these comments then is warranted by the information presented in the article. The most poignant piece of data was that 39% of marriages with boys last more then 3 years after the childs birth, where as 36% of marriages with daughters are still together. Three percent does not an epidemic make.
Calling all men selfish monsters doesn't seam to be a constructive direction to take a thread, but saying that I feel myself saying "not all men" and then start cringing. Our society has a litany of gender issues that seam to be circularly dependent. Boys are taught to be aggressive and unemotional by their fathers, who cant relate to their daughters because of their own lack of emotional training.
posted by KeSetAffinityThread at 6:49 PM on May 26, 2016 [9 favorites]
Calling all men selfish monsters doesn't seam to be a constructive direction to take a thread, but saying that I feel myself saying "not all men" and then start cringing. Our society has a litany of gender issues that seam to be circularly dependent. Boys are taught to be aggressive and unemotional by their fathers, who cant relate to their daughters because of their own lack of emotional training.
posted by KeSetAffinityThread at 6:49 PM on May 26, 2016 [9 favorites]
Mod note: Folks, I think there's room for frustration with the statistical reality and frustration with the dismissive "men are terrible" reaction to it. If you possibly can, please consider there's nuance on both sides here. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 6:50 PM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 6:50 PM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yeah, this is not a great article. It's conjecture,anecdotes, and a spurious conclusion. The only thing stopping it from being run of the mill clickbait is that there weren't ads for ugly celebrity pictures and one mom's weird trick to staying young.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 6:51 PM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 6:51 PM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
But it is still disappointing to see.
Yup. How would American family and social dynamics be different if fathers invested equal time, effort, and connectedness in sons and daughters? What's the cost to families when the data (at least according to this piece, and yes, I would like a lot more data, please) show a discrepancy?
Also, yeah this piece is kind of a mess.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:51 PM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
Yup. How would American family and social dynamics be different if fathers invested equal time, effort, and connectedness in sons and daughters? What's the cost to families when the data (at least according to this piece, and yes, I would like a lot more data, please) show a discrepancy?
Also, yeah this piece is kind of a mess.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:51 PM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
The most poignant piece of data was that 39% of marriages with boys last more then 3 years after the childs birth, where as 36% of marriages with daughters are still together. Three percent does not an epidemic make.
True! which is probably why the article describes the difference between 36% and 39% as "small ... but consistent."
I have no idea why you consider that piece of data more poignant than these:
- Americans said they favour boys over girls by a margin of 12 percentage points. (In a Gallup poll, with similar results since the 1940s.)
- In ... “marginal” marriages, in which a mother who had just given birth said she felt indifferent towards the baby’s father, Giuliano found that sons reduced divorce rates by over 20 percentage points.
- A recent analysis of anonymous search data found that Americans ask “Is my son gifted?” more than twice as often as “Is my daughter gifted?”, even though young girls are more likely than boys to be enrolled in gifted programmes in school. Parents also ask “Is my daughter overweight?” nearly twice as often as “Is my son overweight?”, even though boys are more likely to be fat.
The statistic that struck me as most poignant, although YMMV:
- A new study of California’s paid-leave benefit ... found that fathers were twice as likely to take paternity leave for a son than a daughter.
posted by feral_goldfish at 7:36 PM on May 26, 2016 [54 favorites]
True! which is probably why the article describes the difference between 36% and 39% as "small ... but consistent."
I have no idea why you consider that piece of data more poignant than these:
- Americans said they favour boys over girls by a margin of 12 percentage points. (In a Gallup poll, with similar results since the 1940s.)
- In ... “marginal” marriages, in which a mother who had just given birth said she felt indifferent towards the baby’s father, Giuliano found that sons reduced divorce rates by over 20 percentage points.
- A recent analysis of anonymous search data found that Americans ask “Is my son gifted?” more than twice as often as “Is my daughter gifted?”, even though young girls are more likely than boys to be enrolled in gifted programmes in school. Parents also ask “Is my daughter overweight?” nearly twice as often as “Is my son overweight?”, even though boys are more likely to be fat.
The statistic that struck me as most poignant, although YMMV:
- A new study of California’s paid-leave benefit ... found that fathers were twice as likely to take paternity leave for a son than a daughter.
posted by feral_goldfish at 7:36 PM on May 26, 2016 [54 favorites]
Fear not, people: if you want to get in to the adoption issue, American adoptive parents strongly favor adopting girls rather than adopting boys. Slate 2004. American Economic Journal 2014. (pdf link.) Science Daily 2009.
The market will sort this out! Simply place unwanted girls with adoptive families for best parental preference satisfaction.
posted by Hypatia at 7:49 PM on May 26, 2016 [7 favorites]
The market will sort this out! Simply place unwanted girls with adoptive families for best parental preference satisfaction.
posted by Hypatia at 7:49 PM on May 26, 2016 [7 favorites]
As someone who was raised by an emotionally unavailable father who tried to fashion me in his own image, this cycle is really, really hard to break. This "men are selfish . . . etc" rhetoric is very similar to saying fat people are lazy. Regardless of existing power structures, this toxic masculinity is like a shotgun spray of horribleness that effects generations of people. This type of rhetoric belongs in safe spaces for women (so that they can safely deal with the substantial increase in emotional labor) and not in public discourse. Railing against these "selfish" men is akin to body-shaming an obese person and expecting it to help them lose weight.
posted by R.F.Simpson at 7:52 PM on May 26, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by R.F.Simpson at 7:52 PM on May 26, 2016 [5 favorites]
I have seen many women console a woman having a girl because girls have So Much Drama and boys are just easier. I always thought it was kind of weird...I never thought it was a hugely prevalent attitude. Ugh.
posted by emjaybee at 8:02 PM on May 26, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 8:02 PM on May 26, 2016 [8 favorites]
I thought some of the assumptions the writer made in her phrasing were just as interesting as the information presented. It makes me wonder how much of this was how it was written and how much of it was how it was edited. So much gender normativity is uncritically accepted in this. But then, maybe I've just gone too far the other way.
Intriguingly, families with sons also spent more on “women’s goods” such as jewellery and personal services (eg, manicures and hair salons), indicating that mothers benefit when there is a boy around.
Oh, is that what that means? This sounds like a correlation—who knows whether it indicates anything of the sort? First of all, it assumes these things are benefits, but not all women are intrinsically interested in jewelry, manicures, and hair salons. Second, I can think of a variety of reasons why this might be the case. Maybe gender roles are foregrounded more in the interactions between spouses in families with boys, as men seem to both question their own masculinity more and welcome the opportunity to serve as role models for masculinity when they have sons. And maybe in some cases men who feel guilty for lavishing attention on their sons or for how stereotypically "difficult" their sons are then overcompensate by buying the wives extra things. Or maybe the women who do like that stuff treat themselves more, or perhaps feel the need to demonstrate attractiveness more in a household where they're the only female. Um, and that's just off the top of my head.
the marriages in which sons made a real difference were those in which mothers were initially half-hearted about their husbands. In these “marginal” marriages, in which a mother who had just given birth said she felt indifferent towards the baby’s father, Giuliano found that sons reduced divorce rates by over 20 percentage points. Boys glued these couples together partly because fathers appeared to be more co-operative and attentive at home
That's super interesting. I can see one factor in this being that in many cases, men are culturally allowed to opt out (or just not punished as much as women are for opting out) of the emotional burden of imagining the path into being together with their partners, for not being true partners. Maybe many women see men being more involved with the household and with child-rearing when they have boys as a positive step. Alternately, as the article goes on to speculate, maybe a lot of women stick around when they shouldn't because they want their sons to have a male role model, regardless of whether he's totally stable or good to them. The issue I have with the way this is written is that it's unclear whether the part about how fathers "appeared" was total speculation or actually backed up by some sort of facts.
I can communicate with him about how I expect him to behave more effectively than his mother can, because it’s a guy talking to a guy. With me it sounds like good helpful advice; with my wife, it sounds more like she’s being overbearing and controlling
Ew. This is just a gross quote all around, fraught with toxic masculinity. Those women, always nagging and groaning about stuff we boys do. Maybe things the mother says wouldn't sound so "overbearing and controlling" if the guy would role-model positivity and respect toward her for his son, rather than assuming boys won't listen to their mothers. I mean, I don't know anything about the guy quoted. But this is an unfortunate perspective.
Ultimately parenting is an endless game of trial and error, and no one gets to be perfect. The most anyone can hope for is that mothers and fathers do the best they can and then, when the time comes, try to get out of the way.
What a toothless assumption to end this on. Yes, we should be forgiving of parents doing their best, but I don't think the status quo is the most we can hope to achieve. Could the author not think up a better ending than this namby-pamby, wishy-washy stuff? Or was this edited into the piece for her?
posted by limeonaire at 8:08 PM on May 26, 2016 [21 favorites]
Intriguingly, families with sons also spent more on “women’s goods” such as jewellery and personal services (eg, manicures and hair salons), indicating that mothers benefit when there is a boy around.
Oh, is that what that means? This sounds like a correlation—who knows whether it indicates anything of the sort? First of all, it assumes these things are benefits, but not all women are intrinsically interested in jewelry, manicures, and hair salons. Second, I can think of a variety of reasons why this might be the case. Maybe gender roles are foregrounded more in the interactions between spouses in families with boys, as men seem to both question their own masculinity more and welcome the opportunity to serve as role models for masculinity when they have sons. And maybe in some cases men who feel guilty for lavishing attention on their sons or for how stereotypically "difficult" their sons are then overcompensate by buying the wives extra things. Or maybe the women who do like that stuff treat themselves more, or perhaps feel the need to demonstrate attractiveness more in a household where they're the only female. Um, and that's just off the top of my head.
the marriages in which sons made a real difference were those in which mothers were initially half-hearted about their husbands. In these “marginal” marriages, in which a mother who had just given birth said she felt indifferent towards the baby’s father, Giuliano found that sons reduced divorce rates by over 20 percentage points. Boys glued these couples together partly because fathers appeared to be more co-operative and attentive at home
That's super interesting. I can see one factor in this being that in many cases, men are culturally allowed to opt out (or just not punished as much as women are for opting out) of the emotional burden of imagining the path into being together with their partners, for not being true partners. Maybe many women see men being more involved with the household and with child-rearing when they have boys as a positive step. Alternately, as the article goes on to speculate, maybe a lot of women stick around when they shouldn't because they want their sons to have a male role model, regardless of whether he's totally stable or good to them. The issue I have with the way this is written is that it's unclear whether the part about how fathers "appeared" was total speculation or actually backed up by some sort of facts.
I can communicate with him about how I expect him to behave more effectively than his mother can, because it’s a guy talking to a guy. With me it sounds like good helpful advice; with my wife, it sounds more like she’s being overbearing and controlling
Ew. This is just a gross quote all around, fraught with toxic masculinity. Those women, always nagging and groaning about stuff we boys do. Maybe things the mother says wouldn't sound so "overbearing and controlling" if the guy would role-model positivity and respect toward her for his son, rather than assuming boys won't listen to their mothers. I mean, I don't know anything about the guy quoted. But this is an unfortunate perspective.
Ultimately parenting is an endless game of trial and error, and no one gets to be perfect. The most anyone can hope for is that mothers and fathers do the best they can and then, when the time comes, try to get out of the way.
What a toothless assumption to end this on. Yes, we should be forgiving of parents doing their best, but I don't think the status quo is the most we can hope to achieve. Could the author not think up a better ending than this namby-pamby, wishy-washy stuff? Or was this edited into the piece for her?
posted by limeonaire at 8:08 PM on May 26, 2016 [21 favorites]
A recent study of 1m children born in Florida between 1992 and 2002 found that boys born to poorly educated, unmarried mothers in neighbourhoods with bad schools were much more likely to have cognitive and behavioural problems than girls raised under the same conditions. Not only did the boys perform worse academically, but also they were more likely to drop out and sell drugs or become violent.
So a man who doesn't stick around for his son is more likely to make things worse for the rest of us than a man who doesn't stick around for his daughter? Am I reading that right?
posted by clawsoon at 8:17 PM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
So a man who doesn't stick around for his son is more likely to make things worse for the rest of us than a man who doesn't stick around for his daughter? Am I reading that right?
posted by clawsoon at 8:17 PM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
This article was upsetting enough that I immediately had to go and load up this askme, which is my goto source for father-daughter warm fuzzies. (also, the actual question seems to be getting at something similar, though not quite the same, as the issues presented in this article)
posted by btfreek at 8:24 PM on May 26, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by btfreek at 8:24 PM on May 26, 2016 [5 favorites]
In the first trimester of my pregnancy, my husband said, "I hope it's a boy. I have no idea what I'd do with a girl."
And when the ultrasound and genetic counseling showed we had a girl, my first reaction was pure and blinding panic: What if he's disappointed? I have to protect her from the idea that she wasn't enough for her father -- she can't help her chromosomes. How do I protect her?
But he was thrilled -- thrilled! We were having a girl! A daughter! He picked out her name in the car on the ride home. And now, when I bring up his initial "I hope it's a boy" sentiment, he says, "I wouldn't trade my girl for anything."
I think in some way, having a daughter has short-circuited the weird and dysfunctional father-son relationship cycle he and his dad had, and it's been healing for him. And he's exactly the kind of father she needs. We're all very lucky it turned out like that.
I've talked to other daughters of dads. Maybe it's our particular social strata (well-educated, liberal, atheist-to-Unitarian, west coast), but there's been nearly uniform agreement that being the dad to a daughter is awesome. I wonder if a finer regional and economic analysis would document a more subtle array of attitudes regarding how welcome a daughter is.
posted by sobell at 9:34 PM on May 26, 2016 [14 favorites]
And when the ultrasound and genetic counseling showed we had a girl, my first reaction was pure and blinding panic: What if he's disappointed? I have to protect her from the idea that she wasn't enough for her father -- she can't help her chromosomes. How do I protect her?
But he was thrilled -- thrilled! We were having a girl! A daughter! He picked out her name in the car on the ride home. And now, when I bring up his initial "I hope it's a boy" sentiment, he says, "I wouldn't trade my girl for anything."
I think in some way, having a daughter has short-circuited the weird and dysfunctional father-son relationship cycle he and his dad had, and it's been healing for him. And he's exactly the kind of father she needs. We're all very lucky it turned out like that.
I've talked to other daughters of dads. Maybe it's our particular social strata (well-educated, liberal, atheist-to-Unitarian, west coast), but there's been nearly uniform agreement that being the dad to a daughter is awesome. I wonder if a finer regional and economic analysis would document a more subtle array of attitudes regarding how welcome a daughter is.
posted by sobell at 9:34 PM on May 26, 2016 [14 favorites]
I can only speak for myself and what I took from the article and comments but I believe and hope no one here is saying that men are inherently lazy and selfish. It's just that they're allowed (hell, often pushed) to behave that way in our culture. Plenty of men resist the messaging and don't act this way, which is cause for celebration, but it has enough of an effect in aggregate that someone was able to write this article.
But there was a telling detail in the data Giuliano examined: the marriages in which sons made a real difference were those in which mothers were initially half-hearted about their husbands.
I wonder if this is the key - if the halfheartedness is because those particular men were the type to dismiss women in the first place? Again, this says to me that it's #notallmen, just the ones who were on shaky ground in their relationships to begin with, possibly because of emotional immaturity and/or sexist behavior. If a woman is super excited to marry her awesome feminist husband, and then they have a baby girl, there's no problem, right?
But I will say I was surprised actually that some people in this thread took criticism of some men's actions and attitudes so hard. It is hard to hear, I'm sure. But my reaction as a woman to the linked article was that it was just so, so awful. That so many of the men quoted think I am lesser not because of anything I did, but just who I am. That's a big bummer.
I was also surprised by the gender essentialism on display in the article, though I guess I shouldn't be. Damn.
posted by sunset in snow country at 9:40 PM on May 26, 2016 [25 favorites]
But there was a telling detail in the data Giuliano examined: the marriages in which sons made a real difference were those in which mothers were initially half-hearted about their husbands.
I wonder if this is the key - if the halfheartedness is because those particular men were the type to dismiss women in the first place? Again, this says to me that it's #notallmen, just the ones who were on shaky ground in their relationships to begin with, possibly because of emotional immaturity and/or sexist behavior. If a woman is super excited to marry her awesome feminist husband, and then they have a baby girl, there's no problem, right?
But I will say I was surprised actually that some people in this thread took criticism of some men's actions and attitudes so hard. It is hard to hear, I'm sure. But my reaction as a woman to the linked article was that it was just so, so awful. That so many of the men quoted think I am lesser not because of anything I did, but just who I am. That's a big bummer.
I was also surprised by the gender essentialism on display in the article, though I guess I shouldn't be. Damn.
posted by sunset in snow country at 9:40 PM on May 26, 2016 [25 favorites]
Is it possible that the experience of having a boy gives mothers a sympathetic insight into male psychology that then improves their relationship with dad?
posted by Segundus at 10:01 PM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Segundus at 10:01 PM on May 26, 2016 [4 favorites]
Sexism exists -- big picture (statistically) and little picture (within families). It causes measurable differences in all kinds of ways. Otherwise, I found this article really really annoying. I relate to the parents and people who are cringing at the quotes and conjectures.
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 10:03 PM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 10:03 PM on May 26, 2016 [1 favorite]
Is it possible that the experience of having a boy gives mothers a sympathetic insight into male psychology that then improves their relationship with dad?
Sure, it's possible. In that anything Is possible way. But looking at the quotes feral_goldfish pulled and I am not seeing how that conclusion could make sense.
If the only finding we had was that families with boys had a lower divorce rate than those with only girls, it would be an interesting hypothesis. But the individual components in the article seem to showing something very different is happening. Men spend less time helping with child rearing when there are no sons, men take more paternity leave for the birth of sons, the differences in divorce rates presented are within 3 years of the birth; presumably not a time that's going to produce a significant amount of useful gendered behavior to allow the wife to have a better insight into male psychology w/r/t her husband.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 10:31 PM on May 26, 2016 [9 favorites]
Sure, it's possible. In that anything Is possible way. But looking at the quotes feral_goldfish pulled and I am not seeing how that conclusion could make sense.
If the only finding we had was that families with boys had a lower divorce rate than those with only girls, it would be an interesting hypothesis. But the individual components in the article seem to showing something very different is happening. Men spend less time helping with child rearing when there are no sons, men take more paternity leave for the birth of sons, the differences in divorce rates presented are within 3 years of the birth; presumably not a time that's going to produce a significant amount of useful gendered behavior to allow the wife to have a better insight into male psychology w/r/t her husband.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 10:31 PM on May 26, 2016 [9 favorites]
I am so excited to go and buy a baseball glove for my daughter this week and play catch with her in the backyard. I love to go to all of her games. I can only conclude that people who feel differently about this have something seriously wrong with them.
posted by SpacemanStix at 10:48 PM on May 26, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by SpacemanStix at 10:48 PM on May 26, 2016 [7 favorites]
I remember, a long time ago, reading a study that said there was some minor correlation between a woman being dissatisfied in the relationship (I can't remember if it was specifically sexually) and conceiving girls?
A bit bizarre, and I did not take the time to look at the study methodology in depth, so I have no idea if it was a good study...
In any case, I did not read tfa, but based on the comments I have to assume that explanation was not one of the ones offered.
posted by Cozybee at 11:03 PM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
A bit bizarre, and I did not take the time to look at the study methodology in depth, so I have no idea if it was a good study...
In any case, I did not read tfa, but based on the comments I have to assume that explanation was not one of the ones offered.
posted by Cozybee at 11:03 PM on May 26, 2016 [2 favorites]
OK then. Good for you. Then you can breathe a sigh of relief that this article isn't talking about you.
Way to pointlessly shit on someone for commenting, J.K.Seazer. I love some snark but come on.
posted by C.A.S. at 11:31 PM on May 26, 2016 [13 favorites]
Way to pointlessly shit on someone for commenting, J.K.Seazer. I love some snark but come on.
posted by C.A.S. at 11:31 PM on May 26, 2016 [13 favorites]
the marriages in which sons made a real difference were those in which mothers were initially half-hearted about their husbands.
That suggests it's a difference in the mother that is most important. I remember reading a piece by a woman who had grown up in an all-female family who said the experience of loving her little son gave her a better and more sympathetic understanding of the weaknesses and vulnerabilities of men, who she previously regarded as alien and coldly selfish; and I can imagine that having a son might often have some effect along the same lines, leading to a better relationship with the father.
posted by Segundus at 12:13 AM on May 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
That suggests it's a difference in the mother that is most important. I remember reading a piece by a woman who had grown up in an all-female family who said the experience of loving her little son gave her a better and more sympathetic understanding of the weaknesses and vulnerabilities of men, who she previously regarded as alien and coldly selfish; and I can imagine that having a son might often have some effect along the same lines, leading to a better relationship with the father.
posted by Segundus at 12:13 AM on May 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
I wonder if this calculus changes at all if the boy is not heterosexual.
posted by xyzzy at 12:42 AM on May 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by xyzzy at 12:42 AM on May 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
I like Segundus' theory. I'd imagine women who are/were drama queens themselves tend to raise drama queen daughters, emjaybee, so it's maybe true for the women making comments about drama.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:33 AM on May 27, 2016
posted by jeffburdges at 1:33 AM on May 27, 2016
Railing against these "selfish" men is akin to body-shaming an obese person and expecting it to help them lose weight.
Not really. Unless there's a long (and still current) history of fat supremacy and the (often violent) repression and marginalising of thin people. That's a pretty salient difference. That and the fact that railing against men for how they act towards others (when it is problematic) isn't at all analogous to shaming someone for a body shape that fundamentally affects nobody else.
Like, I get that you think it's unfair to be pressured by society to be a certain way and then get blamed for it - but be aware that this is a much more integral part to existing in modern society as a woman than it is as a man.
posted by Dysk at 2:16 AM on May 27, 2016 [33 favorites]
Not really. Unless there's a long (and still current) history of fat supremacy and the (often violent) repression and marginalising of thin people. That's a pretty salient difference. That and the fact that railing against men for how they act towards others (when it is problematic) isn't at all analogous to shaming someone for a body shape that fundamentally affects nobody else.
Like, I get that you think it's unfair to be pressured by society to be a certain way and then get blamed for it - but be aware that this is a much more integral part to existing in modern society as a woman than it is as a man.
posted by Dysk at 2:16 AM on May 27, 2016 [33 favorites]
I'm alive because my father wanted a son badly enough and prenatal gender testing wasn't around. I was named by him after my father's girlfriend just before my mother over the name she picked out for me as a reminder to her of what a disappointment I was for my gender (she uses my middle name instead). Four girls to get to the desperately wanted boy. He eventually warmed up to me but it was pretty clear all through our childhoods that two boys would have been vastly preferred to the girls they got stuck with.
I have seen the same dynamic play out in so many families I'm related to and friends with that it's notable for a family to not favour the boy if they have more than one child of mixed genders. It's just the water I swim in, and so clearly simply true. Daughters are worth less.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 3:50 AM on May 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
I have seen the same dynamic play out in so many families I'm related to and friends with that it's notable for a family to not favour the boy if they have more than one child of mixed genders. It's just the water I swim in, and so clearly simply true. Daughters are worth less.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 3:50 AM on May 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
In our family it is self-evident to my wife and I that having two boys (and no girls) is a very good way for us to be. Not because I relate better, but because my wife is selfish and jealous. She very much likes being the one woman, with three sets of male eyes loving her and seeing her as the center of our world and the main target of our love and affection.
I would very much like to have a girl some day, but my wife and I know this is probably not a good idea as it would break this dynamic. I love my boys and they are the world to me, but a girl would become a focus of adoration for me in a way that the boys are not, and I know that it would be a point of contention between my wife and I.
I am sure there are plenty in this crowd who will judge and read all sorts of bad into how we see things in our family, but it is working for us.
posted by Meatbomb at 4:36 AM on May 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
I would very much like to have a girl some day, but my wife and I know this is probably not a good idea as it would break this dynamic. I love my boys and they are the world to me, but a girl would become a focus of adoration for me in a way that the boys are not, and I know that it would be a point of contention between my wife and I.
I am sure there are plenty in this crowd who will judge and read all sorts of bad into how we see things in our family, but it is working for us.
posted by Meatbomb at 4:36 AM on May 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
It's pretty sad that a majority of men say they they can't relate to their daughters as well simply because they're female. They're people. Small people can be great, difficult, miserable, outgoing, energetic, sullen, distant, nerdy, athletic or whatever. They're just small young people.
When my previous wife got pregnant, I was happy because we were going to have a child. The child was planned, so that made it all the more exciting. The daughter we had together is an outgoing, enthusiastic, talkative, intuitive, athletic, self-motivated person. Keeping up with her was a challenge, but a damn fun one. I consider her one of my best friends.
That said, I am still part of the statistic, though I break the hypothesis, because that marriage didn't last.
My son is taciturn and had a very moody puberty though thankfully, he came out of that at 15 & has been a very pleasant person the last couple years. He's still a loner though, that doesn't express his feelings well, and stays in his room a lot. I feel like I don't know him as well. Yet, here we are, his mother and me, very happily married 18 years.
The article draws conclusions from a set of statistics that are obviously far from universal, though it breaks my heart for the fathers, but especially for he daughters, of the men it quotes anecdotally in support of the hypothesis. The dads don't know what they're missing & the daughters deserve better.
posted by Devils Rancher at 5:26 AM on May 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
When my previous wife got pregnant, I was happy because we were going to have a child. The child was planned, so that made it all the more exciting. The daughter we had together is an outgoing, enthusiastic, talkative, intuitive, athletic, self-motivated person. Keeping up with her was a challenge, but a damn fun one. I consider her one of my best friends.
That said, I am still part of the statistic, though I break the hypothesis, because that marriage didn't last.
My son is taciturn and had a very moody puberty though thankfully, he came out of that at 15 & has been a very pleasant person the last couple years. He's still a loner though, that doesn't express his feelings well, and stays in his room a lot. I feel like I don't know him as well. Yet, here we are, his mother and me, very happily married 18 years.
The article draws conclusions from a set of statistics that are obviously far from universal, though it breaks my heart for the fathers, but especially for he daughters, of the men it quotes anecdotally in support of the hypothesis. The dads don't know what they're missing & the daughters deserve better.
posted by Devils Rancher at 5:26 AM on May 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
Most of my close friends all got pregnant with their first kid around the same time. Like, there are 5 babies born within 3 months of each other (none of us knew the others were trying to concieve -- totally random). My daughter is the youngest and the only girl.
*All* of my them were giving my husband crap when we found out we were having a girl. Husband likes baseball, and punk rock music, he plays the guitar and watches lots of violent shit on tv. How will you relate to a girl? they said. He was totally sanguine about it: "I am up for as many tea parties as she wants".
Which sounds like a warm fuzzy moment, but I couldn't get over the gender essentialism. This group of ppl are all doctors and scientists. They know better! Why would she like that just bc she's a girl? I spent a lot of my pregnancy railing against assumptions like that.
As it turns out, (she's 7 now), she did love tea parties and princesses. And *adores* baseball, can quote stats and describe how a player on her softball team inadvertently turned an unassisted triple play. She has strong opinions about Government Issue (the band) - thanks dad - and also how women get overlooked in history -thanks mom.
Anyway. All this to say if we didn't have all these goddamn assumptions about how we are supposed to be based on a little body part, life would be a whole lot easier.
posted by gaspode at 6:01 AM on May 27, 2016 [36 favorites]
*All* of my them were giving my husband crap when we found out we were having a girl. Husband likes baseball, and punk rock music, he plays the guitar and watches lots of violent shit on tv. How will you relate to a girl? they said. He was totally sanguine about it: "I am up for as many tea parties as she wants".
Which sounds like a warm fuzzy moment, but I couldn't get over the gender essentialism. This group of ppl are all doctors and scientists. They know better! Why would she like that just bc she's a girl? I spent a lot of my pregnancy railing against assumptions like that.
As it turns out, (she's 7 now), she did love tea parties and princesses. And *adores* baseball, can quote stats and describe how a player on her softball team inadvertently turned an unassisted triple play. She has strong opinions about Government Issue (the band) - thanks dad - and also how women get overlooked in history -thanks mom.
Anyway. All this to say if we didn't have all these goddamn assumptions about how we are supposed to be based on a little body part, life would be a whole lot easier.
posted by gaspode at 6:01 AM on May 27, 2016 [36 favorites]
An old favorite: the patriarchy phone call is coming from inside my own house!!!
The morning after, I am still disturbed by the idea that fathers are more likely to put resources into small people who look like them, and hold out the possibility of becoming like them, because they already think they know how a son works than they are to put the same amount of resources into small people who differ from them, who will not become them in some fundamental way, because bridging the perceived gap takes more imaginative and emotional effort (PSA from zarq: "Daughters aren't mystical, unknowable creatures"). /Redoubles commitment to raising an empathetic son and a fairness-oriented daughter.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:02 AM on May 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
The morning after, I am still disturbed by the idea that fathers are more likely to put resources into small people who look like them, and hold out the possibility of becoming like them, because they already think they know how a son works than they are to put the same amount of resources into small people who differ from them, who will not become them in some fundamental way, because bridging the perceived gap takes more imaginative and emotional effort (PSA from zarq: "Daughters aren't mystical, unknowable creatures"). /Redoubles commitment to raising an empathetic son and a fairness-oriented daughter.
posted by MonkeyToes at 6:02 AM on May 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
That suggests it's a difference in the mother that is most important
Not necessarily, or least not entirely. If a mother is already half-hearted, and the father doesn't pull his weight, then mom may hit a point pretty quickly where she'll think it'll be easier /better to go it alone. But if dad starts stepping up his game, then mom may not hit the breaking point as quickly. So mom's starting point is important, but dad's involvement/lack thereof pushes her in either direction.
I'm one of three girls. My dad got quite a lot of "going to keep trying for a son?" from both men and women. Women generally phrased it more delicately: "do you want a son?" To his credit, he always looked really confused, like the concept of caring about his child's gender was completely unfathomable. When people (usually other women) talked to my mom about it, usually the question was "Does he want a son?" She would just roll her eyes. She had horrible morning sickness with all of us, and the last two were colicky. Even if my dad had cared she was done.
posted by ghost phoneme at 6:10 AM on May 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Not necessarily, or least not entirely. If a mother is already half-hearted, and the father doesn't pull his weight, then mom may hit a point pretty quickly where she'll think it'll be easier /better to go it alone. But if dad starts stepping up his game, then mom may not hit the breaking point as quickly. So mom's starting point is important, but dad's involvement/lack thereof pushes her in either direction.
I'm one of three girls. My dad got quite a lot of "going to keep trying for a son?" from both men and women. Women generally phrased it more delicately: "do you want a son?" To his credit, he always looked really confused, like the concept of caring about his child's gender was completely unfathomable. When people (usually other women) talked to my mom about it, usually the question was "Does he want a son?" She would just roll her eyes. She had horrible morning sickness with all of us, and the last two were colicky. Even if my dad had cared she was done.
posted by ghost phoneme at 6:10 AM on May 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
We both really wanted a girl and were a little stunned with a boy. My partner was looking forward to having tea parties and all that. Also we both didn't feel confident in parenting a boy. He was worried the boy wouldn't be snugly and I wasn't sure how to relate to a boy. Well guess what we wouldn't trade him for the world! And he is super snugly :)
Like what they say - children will subvert parental expectations all the time, and gender is just one of the ways they can do so.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 6:49 AM on May 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Like what they say - children will subvert parental expectations all the time, and gender is just one of the ways they can do so.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 6:49 AM on May 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
I have a better understanding of boys than girls because I've been a boy and have never been a girl
yeah this is pretty much the problem in a nutshell. You don't understand boys, you understand yourself, and you freely decide and consent to imagine your self in boys. Go find a girl whose dad just somehow didn't instinctively understand (= imagine he did) her as easily as he would a boy, in spite of her being exactly like him in the personality in all the ways that can be inherited, because she was a girl, the subtle stain that never washes away. Not her fault, of course. Definitely not his fault.
by "go find" I mean throw a rock in any direction and you'll hit one.
I know this is not what you're saying but this is what it is like on the receiving end. on the bright side, this kind of dadly sentiment produces more seething resentment than hero-worship of their fathers, which is definitely good for girls, and this "definitely" is a real one.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:09 AM on May 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
yeah this is pretty much the problem in a nutshell. You don't understand boys, you understand yourself, and you freely decide and consent to imagine your self in boys. Go find a girl whose dad just somehow didn't instinctively understand (= imagine he did) her as easily as he would a boy, in spite of her being exactly like him in the personality in all the ways that can be inherited, because she was a girl, the subtle stain that never washes away. Not her fault, of course. Definitely not his fault.
by "go find" I mean throw a rock in any direction and you'll hit one.
I know this is not what you're saying but this is what it is like on the receiving end. on the bright side, this kind of dadly sentiment produces more seething resentment than hero-worship of their fathers, which is definitely good for girls, and this "definitely" is a real one.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:09 AM on May 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
So all these straight men who "don't understand" girls because they have never been girls, and who therefore "naturally" default to anxiety, detachment, disappointment, etc...how do they deal with their wives? Do they apply the same logic?
I mean, probably, but if they're happy to marry someone they "can't" understand, surely they can parent someone they "can't" understand. I assume they took the effort to develop caring relationships with their wives, at least on some level, despite their wives' disappointing and baffling womanhood.
Also, honestly, we are on the hook for our participation in structural oppression. I don't get to say that transmasculine people shouldn't be called out for our treatment of women because after all we've just learned to participate in structural misogyny; or that when I do or say something racist everyone should remember that this is just because structural racism has taught me to do so. "It's upsetting when people blame me or blame my category for oppression because we can't really do any better because it's structural" does not cut much ice with me.
posted by Frowner at 8:18 AM on May 27, 2016 [23 favorites]
I mean, probably, but if they're happy to marry someone they "can't" understand, surely they can parent someone they "can't" understand. I assume they took the effort to develop caring relationships with their wives, at least on some level, despite their wives' disappointing and baffling womanhood.
Also, honestly, we are on the hook for our participation in structural oppression. I don't get to say that transmasculine people shouldn't be called out for our treatment of women because after all we've just learned to participate in structural misogyny; or that when I do or say something racist everyone should remember that this is just because structural racism has taught me to do so. "It's upsetting when people blame me or blame my category for oppression because we can't really do any better because it's structural" does not cut much ice with me.
posted by Frowner at 8:18 AM on May 27, 2016 [23 favorites]
OK then. Good for you. Then you can breathe a sigh of relief that this article isn't talking about you.
This article is about me, not only because I'm the father to both a boy and a girl but because I am well aware of the gender tropes in raising a child and I'm doing my best not to contribute to the ones I think are harmful.
We tried not to reinforce to many stereotypical girly things with our daughter*. My son had an interest in baseball which was honestly super perplexing to me, who grew up as a stereotypical nerd, but I did my best to figure it out.
And we make both our kids talk about their feelings. We took our son to a therapist to help him work through some struggles in school. And when his baseball team lost their semi-final game last night - his last baseball game of his high school career since he's a senior - he cried and told my wife how sad he was and how much he had enjoyed playing baseball and how great all his friends were. It still chokes me up a bit to think about it. Sadly I wasn't there as I was with my daughter at a concert.
But look the point isn't that I'm awesome (I am, and we can talk about that at length, but it isn't my point), my point is that some of us know about this stuff and actively structure the way we parent our children to avoid gender stereotypes somewhat and force both our children and ourselves into places that might not always be comfortable but seem like the right thing to do. Articles like this are useful because they help remind parents that there's bias out there that you may not even see but I think they tend to elicit a lot of free-floating anger here on mefi about the general shittiness of the world. So have a little faith that at least some of us are trying to do a little better. If anything this article makes me think that "normal" people need a little talk therapy sometimes to help unravel the unconscious biases driving their lives.
* kids have their own agency and I know some parents who didn't really encourage the princess-industrial complex with their daughters but ended up with it anyway so a) let me not overstate my influence on what my daughter does or doesn't like and b) if your daughter's room looks like the wardrobe dept for "Frozen LIVE" that's cool as long as it was her and not you.
posted by GuyZero at 8:22 AM on May 27, 2016 [16 favorites]
This article is about me, not only because I'm the father to both a boy and a girl but because I am well aware of the gender tropes in raising a child and I'm doing my best not to contribute to the ones I think are harmful.
We tried not to reinforce to many stereotypical girly things with our daughter*. My son had an interest in baseball which was honestly super perplexing to me, who grew up as a stereotypical nerd, but I did my best to figure it out.
And we make both our kids talk about their feelings. We took our son to a therapist to help him work through some struggles in school. And when his baseball team lost their semi-final game last night - his last baseball game of his high school career since he's a senior - he cried and told my wife how sad he was and how much he had enjoyed playing baseball and how great all his friends were. It still chokes me up a bit to think about it. Sadly I wasn't there as I was with my daughter at a concert.
But look the point isn't that I'm awesome (I am, and we can talk about that at length, but it isn't my point), my point is that some of us know about this stuff and actively structure the way we parent our children to avoid gender stereotypes somewhat and force both our children and ourselves into places that might not always be comfortable but seem like the right thing to do. Articles like this are useful because they help remind parents that there's bias out there that you may not even see but I think they tend to elicit a lot of free-floating anger here on mefi about the general shittiness of the world. So have a little faith that at least some of us are trying to do a little better. If anything this article makes me think that "normal" people need a little talk therapy sometimes to help unravel the unconscious biases driving their lives.
* kids have their own agency and I know some parents who didn't really encourage the princess-industrial complex with their daughters but ended up with it anyway so a) let me not overstate my influence on what my daughter does or doesn't like and b) if your daughter's room looks like the wardrobe dept for "Frozen LIVE" that's cool as long as it was her and not you.
posted by GuyZero at 8:22 AM on May 27, 2016 [16 favorites]
So all these straight men who "don't understand" girls because they have never been girls, and who therefore "naturally" default to anxiety, detachment, disappointment, etc...how do they deal with their wives? Do they apply the same logic?
Jesus, yes, that was my basic emotional state around women until I was nearly middle-aged. Those were the feelings that women invoked in all my adolescent male friends. Thankfully I got better somewhat. And you've described the basic stereotype of straight gender relations. I'm unsure why you think it's surprising.
I mean, probably, but if they're happy to marry someone they "can't" understand, surely they can parent someone they "can't" understand. I assume they took the effort to develop caring relationships with their wives, at least on some level, despite their wives' disappointing and baffling womanhood.
They can? It's not an article about infanticide. It's an article about a statistical bias in relationship outcomes due to the gender of children in married couples.
posted by GuyZero at 8:31 AM on May 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Jesus, yes, that was my basic emotional state around women until I was nearly middle-aged. Those were the feelings that women invoked in all my adolescent male friends. Thankfully I got better somewhat. And you've described the basic stereotype of straight gender relations. I'm unsure why you think it's surprising.
I mean, probably, but if they're happy to marry someone they "can't" understand, surely they can parent someone they "can't" understand. I assume they took the effort to develop caring relationships with their wives, at least on some level, despite their wives' disappointing and baffling womanhood.
They can? It's not an article about infanticide. It's an article about a statistical bias in relationship outcomes due to the gender of children in married couples.
posted by GuyZero at 8:31 AM on May 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
yeah this is pretty much the problem in a nutshell. You don't understand boys, you understand yourself, and you freely decide and consent to imagine your self in boys.
Exactly. I don't really understand anyone else, truly, because they are not me. But I try my hardest to, and the concept that it's inherently easier for me than my husband to understand my daughter bc we are both female can be so damaging. It's an excuse to fail to cultivate empathy.
posted by gaspode at 8:31 AM on May 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
Exactly. I don't really understand anyone else, truly, because they are not me. But I try my hardest to, and the concept that it's inherently easier for me than my husband to understand my daughter bc we are both female can be so damaging. It's an excuse to fail to cultivate empathy.
posted by gaspode at 8:31 AM on May 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
And to add:
Also, honestly, we are on the hook for our participation in structural oppression.
Yes. I'm not about to give myself a cookie because I have made numerous mistakes, but yes, and I'm trying. I think a lot more parents are trying now than they used. There remains much more to do.
posted by GuyZero at 8:35 AM on May 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
Also, honestly, we are on the hook for our participation in structural oppression.
Yes. I'm not about to give myself a cookie because I have made numerous mistakes, but yes, and I'm trying. I think a lot more parents are trying now than they used. There remains much more to do.
posted by GuyZero at 8:35 AM on May 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
I mean, probably, but if they're happy to marry someone they "can't" understand, surely they can parent someone they "can't" understand. I assume they took the effort to develop caring relationships with their wives, at least on some level, despite their wives' disappointing and baffling womanhood.
I mean, I think for a certain type of dude* there's no plus side to this. You develop, or learn to fake, the "caring relationship" with your wife because she cooks for you and you get to fuck her.**
For a lot of people the "benefit" of kids is just that they reflect well on you. If you are a dude who is of the opinion that women are baffling and inferior, there's no way for a girl child to reflect well on you. So what is even the point of her? Now a boy child, that right there proves that your sperm are The Best Man Sperm, and one day that kid will be good at football, which will be basically the same as YOU being good at football, even though you aren't anymore, and maybe if you're honest you never were.
Obviously at the core of this is a person who lacks empathy generally, and doesn't see the point of doing things unless they have a tangible benefit. I think that description can apply to any human***; I do think that people perceived as cis het white dudes, in US culture, are more likely to be indulged in said behavior.
*The Absolute Worst type of dude. To be honest this may literally only apply to my former stepdad? But sadly, probably not.
**Again, I am referring to the literal Absolute Worst type of dude; I am not referring to the many healthy and emotionally connected relationships in the world.
*** In my personal acquaintance I know a mother who fits this description perfectly. But she is an absolute social pariah, and general opinion is "my god, she should never have been a mother." I do not observe that her husband, who is exactly like her in every respect, gets the same derision.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:38 AM on May 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
I mean, I think for a certain type of dude* there's no plus side to this. You develop, or learn to fake, the "caring relationship" with your wife because she cooks for you and you get to fuck her.**
For a lot of people the "benefit" of kids is just that they reflect well on you. If you are a dude who is of the opinion that women are baffling and inferior, there's no way for a girl child to reflect well on you. So what is even the point of her? Now a boy child, that right there proves that your sperm are The Best Man Sperm, and one day that kid will be good at football, which will be basically the same as YOU being good at football, even though you aren't anymore, and maybe if you're honest you never were.
Obviously at the core of this is a person who lacks empathy generally, and doesn't see the point of doing things unless they have a tangible benefit. I think that description can apply to any human***; I do think that people perceived as cis het white dudes, in US culture, are more likely to be indulged in said behavior.
*The Absolute Worst type of dude. To be honest this may literally only apply to my former stepdad? But sadly, probably not.
**Again, I am referring to the literal Absolute Worst type of dude; I am not referring to the many healthy and emotionally connected relationships in the world.
*** In my personal acquaintance I know a mother who fits this description perfectly. But she is an absolute social pariah, and general opinion is "my god, she should never have been a mother." I do not observe that her husband, who is exactly like her in every respect, gets the same derision.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:38 AM on May 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
****I am also not referring to literal adolescents who can be expected to exhibit certain toxic narcissistic tendencies out of which they later grow. If you were a newt, but you got better, I'm not talking about you.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:40 AM on May 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 8:40 AM on May 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
I think there are certain things that opposite gendered parents can expect to have a harder time "understanding," although I think anticipating might be a better term?
Even if we have parents that are perfectly gender neutral in treating their boy and girls, the world at large doesn't work like that. I can see how a dad might reasonably worry about preparing his daughter to deal with it because he's never had to learn to walk the tight rope of being walked all over or being labeled a shrieking harpy.
Or some biological Stuff. My father, for example, not so knowledgeable about periods, beyond very basic it happens around the same time every month and there may be some light cramping (oh, wait, that's not necessarily true? And oh god, vomiting from pain, now what? Death?), so thank god for mom because those are conversations I think we were both happy someone with more personal experience could provide. But other stuff, knowing his daughters as people, with individual motivations and quirks, that he relished. And worked for (and would also have had to work for with sons if that had been the case).
The dad's queenofbithynia describes have reduced their daughter entire personalities to their genders, and are thus unknowable. Because they don't know what to do about periods.
posted by ghost phoneme at 8:53 AM on May 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Even if we have parents that are perfectly gender neutral in treating their boy and girls, the world at large doesn't work like that. I can see how a dad might reasonably worry about preparing his daughter to deal with it because he's never had to learn to walk the tight rope of being walked all over or being labeled a shrieking harpy.
Or some biological Stuff. My father, for example, not so knowledgeable about periods, beyond very basic it happens around the same time every month and there may be some light cramping (oh, wait, that's not necessarily true? And oh god, vomiting from pain, now what? Death?), so thank god for mom because those are conversations I think we were both happy someone with more personal experience could provide. But other stuff, knowing his daughters as people, with individual motivations and quirks, that he relished. And worked for (and would also have had to work for with sons if that had been the case).
The dad's queenofbithynia describes have reduced their daughter entire personalities to their genders, and are thus unknowable. Because they don't know what to do about periods.
posted by ghost phoneme at 8:53 AM on May 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Devils Rancher: It's pretty sad that a majority of men say they they can't relate to their daughters as well simply because they're female. They're people.
We have a daughter, then a son, another son, and another daughter. I must say, currently the girls are maybe a little easer to deal with than the boys, but that my just be their ages. Or birth order place. Or development of the prefrontal cortex. Or sleep patterns. Or or or!
As Devils Rancher says, they're people, and each has aspects of their personality (and body -- thanks, hormones!) that are easier for us parents to deal with, and other things that are harder.
The oldest one is the easiest to deal with, but maybe that's because she had a few early years with no competition. Or maybe she's the most mature by temperament. Or the one with something to lose (i.e., the use of our car). Or who has external validation from success in school and sports. Or or or! Who knows? The one sure thing is that they are not done developing, so it would be stupid to do anything irrevocable now.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:05 AM on May 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
We have a daughter, then a son, another son, and another daughter. I must say, currently the girls are maybe a little easer to deal with than the boys, but that my just be their ages. Or birth order place. Or development of the prefrontal cortex. Or sleep patterns. Or or or!
As Devils Rancher says, they're people, and each has aspects of their personality (and body -- thanks, hormones!) that are easier for us parents to deal with, and other things that are harder.
The oldest one is the easiest to deal with, but maybe that's because she had a few early years with no competition. Or maybe she's the most mature by temperament. Or the one with something to lose (i.e., the use of our car). Or who has external validation from success in school and sports. Or or or! Who knows? The one sure thing is that they are not done developing, so it would be stupid to do anything irrevocable now.
posted by wenestvedt at 9:05 AM on May 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Another key, I think, is that these effects are all observed in the first three years - when the kid is still young enough for the parents to project themselves onto, before a boy might show a problematic lack of interest in baseball or whatever.
posted by sunset in snow country at 9:18 AM on May 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by sunset in snow country at 9:18 AM on May 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
So all these straight men who "don't understand" girls because they have never been girls, and who therefore "naturally" default to anxiety, detachment, disappointment, etc...how do they deal with their wives? Do they apply the same logic?
The widespread cultural drumbeat of "women! who can ever understand them, amirite?" either outright stated in comedy routines or simply implicit in narrative deeper structures. Not only an excuse to not cultivate empathy as gaspode noted, but cognitive training and exercise in not cultivating it.
posted by Drastic at 9:26 AM on May 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
The widespread cultural drumbeat of "women! who can ever understand them, amirite?" either outright stated in comedy routines or simply implicit in narrative deeper structures. Not only an excuse to not cultivate empathy as gaspode noted, but cognitive training and exercise in not cultivating it.
posted by Drastic at 9:26 AM on May 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
We tried not to reinforce to many stereotypical girly things with our daughter*
I just want to comment on this, without making this particularly about GuyZero, but I find it disturbing that I see a lot of parents who go out of their way not to enforce gender norms with their girls, but let gender norms fall where they may for their boys. "I don't let my daughter wear pink", "I don't let my daughter watch princess movies", etc, etc. I see those posts all the time on Facebook. "My son wears nail polish" not so much. Whenever I see a new more gender neutral clothing line start up, it's almost always about making dresses with dinosaurs on them -- it almost never seems to be about how boys could wear cupcakes and butterflies.
Allowing girls to acknowledge their non-girliness is fine, but trying to keep girls from being girly isn't feminist and empowering, it's teaching girls that girls are bad, and they should seek to be more like boys. Especially when it is never or rarely pared with trying to limit the normative gender expression of boys.
posted by jacquilynne at 9:35 AM on May 27, 2016 [49 favorites]
I just want to comment on this, without making this particularly about GuyZero, but I find it disturbing that I see a lot of parents who go out of their way not to enforce gender norms with their girls, but let gender norms fall where they may for their boys. "I don't let my daughter wear pink", "I don't let my daughter watch princess movies", etc, etc. I see those posts all the time on Facebook. "My son wears nail polish" not so much. Whenever I see a new more gender neutral clothing line start up, it's almost always about making dresses with dinosaurs on them -- it almost never seems to be about how boys could wear cupcakes and butterflies.
Allowing girls to acknowledge their non-girliness is fine, but trying to keep girls from being girly isn't feminist and empowering, it's teaching girls that girls are bad, and they should seek to be more like boys. Especially when it is never or rarely pared with trying to limit the normative gender expression of boys.
posted by jacquilynne at 9:35 AM on May 27, 2016 [49 favorites]
I had wondered before reading the article if possibly it was because men can get their emotional needs met by daughters and so don't feel the need to stay married. I don't (necessarily) mean sexual needs but rather the desire to be someone's hero or knight in shining armor. I think many daughters worship their fathers in a way that wives can't or won't-- unconditionally and without equal footing. I think this is the same impulse that leads men to choose younger, less experienced women for their second or third partners. Hero worship is a potent drug.
In my anecdotal experience as the daughter of a man who did this, and later as an adult in a part of the world (the French Riviera) where a very visible chunk of men go for much younger women on purpose and loudly explain their "reasoning" behind it, yes, this is very likely part of it. It has truth, in any case.
My father nearly divorced my emotionally and physically abusive mother when I was around 8 years old and my younger brother was 5. He was my hero at that age, which is a pretty normal way for kids to view their parents (not just their fathers; I viewed my best friends' mother as a hero growing up). Likewise he was my biggest support, at the time. He encouraged my love of baseball, was proud at how good I was in math and computers, loved letting me tell him stories I'd written and listen to my music... in short, yeah, he was my hero.
Then my mother started turning him against me. Filling his head with how he was putting himself at risk for being accused of incest, at how kids are supposed to respect and fear their parents, not adore them, and above all, at how I was "emotionally manipulating" him to hate my mother. Which was like, what. the. fuck. And my father ended up telling me this, in tears one day when I was twelve. I told him, basically, "Dad, do you seriously believe that? That never even occurred to me. Why are you letting her do this??" They had a big fight. After that, I never saw my father smile the same way again. Nor did he ever look me in the eyes again. He hated me, though. The sort of freezing cold hatred that tells girls and women "why the fuck do you exist." And he stayed with my mother.
As for the Riviera. Good lord yes. So many men there position themselves as Apollos just dying to meet a nymph to worship them. When in reality they're Narcissus wanting an Echo (you know the story, she ends up not existing *wink wink nudge nudge this myth is still for our age*).
posted by fraula at 9:59 AM on May 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
In my anecdotal experience as the daughter of a man who did this, and later as an adult in a part of the world (the French Riviera) where a very visible chunk of men go for much younger women on purpose and loudly explain their "reasoning" behind it, yes, this is very likely part of it. It has truth, in any case.
My father nearly divorced my emotionally and physically abusive mother when I was around 8 years old and my younger brother was 5. He was my hero at that age, which is a pretty normal way for kids to view their parents (not just their fathers; I viewed my best friends' mother as a hero growing up). Likewise he was my biggest support, at the time. He encouraged my love of baseball, was proud at how good I was in math and computers, loved letting me tell him stories I'd written and listen to my music... in short, yeah, he was my hero.
Then my mother started turning him against me. Filling his head with how he was putting himself at risk for being accused of incest, at how kids are supposed to respect and fear their parents, not adore them, and above all, at how I was "emotionally manipulating" him to hate my mother. Which was like, what. the. fuck. And my father ended up telling me this, in tears one day when I was twelve. I told him, basically, "Dad, do you seriously believe that? That never even occurred to me. Why are you letting her do this??" They had a big fight. After that, I never saw my father smile the same way again. Nor did he ever look me in the eyes again. He hated me, though. The sort of freezing cold hatred that tells girls and women "why the fuck do you exist." And he stayed with my mother.
As for the Riviera. Good lord yes. So many men there position themselves as Apollos just dying to meet a nymph to worship them. When in reality they're Narcissus wanting an Echo (you know the story, she ends up not existing *wink wink nudge nudge this myth is still for our age*).
posted by fraula at 9:59 AM on May 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
but I find it disturbing that I see a lot of parents who go out of their way not to enforce gender norms with their girls, but let gender norms fall where they may for their boys.
So while I am terrible about making things not about me, I just wanted to chime in that I agree. I'm not a fan of the idolatry of Disney princesses but at the same time your point is well-made. For our particular family it stems more from our dislike of the omnipresent Disney cultural machine than a rejection of femininity. I agree though that parents are more accepting and perhaps even more encouraging of girls going off the stereotypical gender identity path than for boys. But I try to temper things when I say them aloud because I think there are parents as perplexed by their daughter's love of princesses as I was by my son's love of baseball. If anything I took him to baseball to avoid having to take him to hockey when we lived in Toronto. No way did I want to be part of youth hockey culture even though we know some well-adjusted kids who play in seemingly sane leagues.
From an American perspective having a boy who likes baseball is about as gender-normative as it gets, but from a Canadian perspective saying that you're not going to take your kid to play hockey is crazy talk.
But back to your point, I think that parents en masse are getting marginally better about boys stepping out of norms. In Toronto there were lots of boys with long hair and the change when we moved to California was stark - boys here don't even have shaggy hair much less a ponytail. Of course the list of cultural differences between Toronto urban yuppie parents and suburban Americans makes the original article above look like a brief aside. Even so, I'm not sure I saw anything beyond hair - maybe it's just superficial change or change at a glacial pace.
posted by GuyZero at 10:17 AM on May 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
So while I am terrible about making things not about me, I just wanted to chime in that I agree. I'm not a fan of the idolatry of Disney princesses but at the same time your point is well-made. For our particular family it stems more from our dislike of the omnipresent Disney cultural machine than a rejection of femininity. I agree though that parents are more accepting and perhaps even more encouraging of girls going off the stereotypical gender identity path than for boys. But I try to temper things when I say them aloud because I think there are parents as perplexed by their daughter's love of princesses as I was by my son's love of baseball. If anything I took him to baseball to avoid having to take him to hockey when we lived in Toronto. No way did I want to be part of youth hockey culture even though we know some well-adjusted kids who play in seemingly sane leagues.
From an American perspective having a boy who likes baseball is about as gender-normative as it gets, but from a Canadian perspective saying that you're not going to take your kid to play hockey is crazy talk.
But back to your point, I think that parents en masse are getting marginally better about boys stepping out of norms. In Toronto there were lots of boys with long hair and the change when we moved to California was stark - boys here don't even have shaggy hair much less a ponytail. Of course the list of cultural differences between Toronto urban yuppie parents and suburban Americans makes the original article above look like a brief aside. Even so, I'm not sure I saw anything beyond hair - maybe it's just superficial change or change at a glacial pace.
posted by GuyZero at 10:17 AM on May 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm sorry that happened to you, fraula. That's really really heartbreaking.
posted by JenMarie at 10:28 AM on May 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by JenMarie at 10:28 AM on May 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
JUST TODAY, at my work, a fairly progressive/liberal workplace of people who think of themselves as urbane and well-educated, one of my coworkers showed another coworker a picture of her niece. Who is one year old. One.
His response was “uh-oh, her dad’s in trouble!”
You know, because his one year old daughter is beautiful, at the AGE OF ONE, and therefore he is now in for a lifetime of attempting to guard her virtue? Of holding a shotgun on the porch? I actually felt my pulse jump with naked anger when he said this?
Anyway, men who have daughters are told, FROM THE MOMENT THE GENDER OF A CHILD IS KNOWN, that it is their job to prevent her from having sex with drooling lustmonsters, for the rest of her (or the father’s, at least) life. Not only is that gross and horrible, but I wonder how much it plays into this dynamic. If you are a man who has a little boy, then you get to vicariously live through any of his future romantic successes. My son is hooking up with a hot chick! Woo!
But if you are a man who has a little girl, then you begin to learn (assuming you didn’t pay any attention to this beforehand) some really uncomfortable truths about what it means to be female in this culture. It can bring some serious cognitive dissonance.
And some dudes just…check out. That’s girl stuff, I’m not going to think about it, because thinking about it stresses me out, and makes me reconsider my porn preferences, and makes me think differently about my wife. But if you refuse to engage with it or think seriously about it, then that just means your daughter goes through it without your support. OR, there is the other attractive option some dudes choose, i.e. “blame her personally for whatever she suffers while living in a patriarchy”.
Her dad’s in trouble! He certainly is. Just not in the way people mean when they make that vile joke.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:57 AM on May 27, 2016 [31 favorites]
His response was “uh-oh, her dad’s in trouble!”
You know, because his one year old daughter is beautiful, at the AGE OF ONE, and therefore he is now in for a lifetime of attempting to guard her virtue? Of holding a shotgun on the porch? I actually felt my pulse jump with naked anger when he said this?
Anyway, men who have daughters are told, FROM THE MOMENT THE GENDER OF A CHILD IS KNOWN, that it is their job to prevent her from having sex with drooling lustmonsters, for the rest of her (or the father’s, at least) life. Not only is that gross and horrible, but I wonder how much it plays into this dynamic. If you are a man who has a little boy, then you get to vicariously live through any of his future romantic successes. My son is hooking up with a hot chick! Woo!
But if you are a man who has a little girl, then you begin to learn (assuming you didn’t pay any attention to this beforehand) some really uncomfortable truths about what it means to be female in this culture. It can bring some serious cognitive dissonance.
And some dudes just…check out. That’s girl stuff, I’m not going to think about it, because thinking about it stresses me out, and makes me reconsider my porn preferences, and makes me think differently about my wife. But if you refuse to engage with it or think seriously about it, then that just means your daughter goes through it without your support. OR, there is the other attractive option some dudes choose, i.e. “blame her personally for whatever she suffers while living in a patriarchy”.
Her dad’s in trouble! He certainly is. Just not in the way people mean when they make that vile joke.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:57 AM on May 27, 2016 [31 favorites]
I will admit to being someone who would prefer a boy over a girl, specifically because I think it will be easier to raise a feminist son than it will be to combat all the patriarchy that fucks so many women in our culture. I don't have any kids though so maybe I'm underestimating how hard it would be to fight the patriarchy for my hypothetical son.
posted by LizBoBiz at 11:23 AM on May 27, 2016
posted by LizBoBiz at 11:23 AM on May 27, 2016
I'm underestimating how hard it would be to fight the patriarchy for my hypothetical son.
Not the mother of a boy here, so I'm only observing an experience, not living it, but it's been my observation that boys are subject to much more pervasive and uncompromising gender policing than girls are from infancy on. It starts with baby clothes, it moves into language (hands up, everyone whose arm hair has raised in revulsion when you hear someone refer to a baby or toddler as a "little man"), it affects how the child's feelings are handled, and it poisons acceptable toys and stories.
I had to reduce interaction with one former friend after she expressed discomfort with the idea of picking up her 8 month old son every time he cried because "she didn't want to spoil him" and "he needed to toughen up." This is a baby we're talking about. She was literally going to ignore his need for comfort because her need to produce a "manly" child was more important.
Over on Babycenter's message boards -- which are a fascinating deep dive into the swirling currents of American mainstream cultures -- I've seen posts by parents who won't dress their boy in purple because it's a "girl" color, who have become estranged from family members who made fun of a toddler boy for wanting a play kitchen for Christmas, or who have pressed balls and bats into their boys' hands because sports are for boys, dance and cheer are for girls.
I'm not denying that girls in some American subcultures are mindlessly socialized to believe their primary value is derived from what value they can bring to me. But it seems a hell of a lot easier to raise a feminist daughter than to raise a son in a sea of toxic 'Murican masculinity.
posted by sobell at 12:00 PM on May 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
Not the mother of a boy here, so I'm only observing an experience, not living it, but it's been my observation that boys are subject to much more pervasive and uncompromising gender policing than girls are from infancy on. It starts with baby clothes, it moves into language (hands up, everyone whose arm hair has raised in revulsion when you hear someone refer to a baby or toddler as a "little man"), it affects how the child's feelings are handled, and it poisons acceptable toys and stories.
I had to reduce interaction with one former friend after she expressed discomfort with the idea of picking up her 8 month old son every time he cried because "she didn't want to spoil him" and "he needed to toughen up." This is a baby we're talking about. She was literally going to ignore his need for comfort because her need to produce a "manly" child was more important.
Over on Babycenter's message boards -- which are a fascinating deep dive into the swirling currents of American mainstream cultures -- I've seen posts by parents who won't dress their boy in purple because it's a "girl" color, who have become estranged from family members who made fun of a toddler boy for wanting a play kitchen for Christmas, or who have pressed balls and bats into their boys' hands because sports are for boys, dance and cheer are for girls.
I'm not denying that girls in some American subcultures are mindlessly socialized to believe their primary value is derived from what value they can bring to me. But it seems a hell of a lot easier to raise a feminist daughter than to raise a son in a sea of toxic 'Murican masculinity.
posted by sobell at 12:00 PM on May 27, 2016 [7 favorites]
But it seems a hell of a lot easier to raise a feminist daughter than to raise a son in a sea of toxic 'Murican masculinity.
I feel like perhaps (not to put words into people's mouths, just trying out an idea here) it might be less that it's more or less difficult, but that the consequences are not as harsh if you fail somehow to raise a feminist son. He'll still benefit from the patriarchy either way.
posted by gaspode at 12:06 PM on May 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
I feel like perhaps (not to put words into people's mouths, just trying out an idea here) it might be less that it's more or less difficult, but that the consequences are not as harsh if you fail somehow to raise a feminist son. He'll still benefit from the patriarchy either way.
posted by gaspode at 12:06 PM on May 27, 2016 [8 favorites]
Ha, my daughter the electrical engineer has been kicking The Patriarchy's ass. She was hired into an all-male department, of guys in their 30's-50's fresh out of college, and after less than a year has already been purloined by another department & been given a promotion out of there. She's gonna go build satellites.
What was I doing when I was 24? Not shit. She's amazing. Daughters are amazing.
My son is one of the most caring & empathetic teenagers you have ever met. Wants to give his allowance to every charity that pops up, especially if it involves pets or wildlife, supports local artists, (Like, he saved for months & bought a painting from a friend of ours who had a gallery show) and has been caring, kind & faithful to the 2 girlfriends he's had. Sons are amazing, too.
posted by Devils Rancher at 12:08 PM on May 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
What was I doing when I was 24? Not shit. She's amazing. Daughters are amazing.
My son is one of the most caring & empathetic teenagers you have ever met. Wants to give his allowance to every charity that pops up, especially if it involves pets or wildlife, supports local artists, (Like, he saved for months & bought a painting from a friend of ours who had a gallery show) and has been caring, kind & faithful to the 2 girlfriends he's had. Sons are amazing, too.
posted by Devils Rancher at 12:08 PM on May 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
But it seems a hell of a lot easier to raise a feminist daughter than to raise a son in a sea of toxic 'Murican masculinity.
I would counter that it's actually not that hard but that a lot of people simply don't want to do it. Which is possibly worse.
Anyway, you don't need to raise a child with zero problems, you just need to raise a child that's slightly less worse/worse off than you are. The world is now a slightly better place.
posted by GuyZero at 12:08 PM on May 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
I would counter that it's actually not that hard but that a lot of people simply don't want to do it. Which is possibly worse.
Anyway, you don't need to raise a child with zero problems, you just need to raise a child that's slightly less worse/worse off than you are. The world is now a slightly better place.
posted by GuyZero at 12:08 PM on May 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
But it seems a hell of a lot easier to raise a feminist daughter than to raise a son in a sea of toxic 'Murican masculinity.
I dunno, to me this sounds a bit like saying "it is easier to sail a banana in the Pacific Ocean than to lasso a snake". I do not know any grown women, even the ones who proudly identify as feminists, even the ones who (like me) were raised by feminist dads who were happy and enthusiastic about raising feminist daughters, who don't struggle with some amount of internalized misogyny, and conversely I know lots of thoughtful dudes who recognize and try to remedy toxic masculinity, including in themselves. This seems sort of related to the different ways emotionality and socialization is gendered--the "boys-will-be-boys" sense that boys are inherently difficult and willful, and on the flip side the way girls are taught very early to not make internal sadness or conflict other people's problems.
posted by Krom Tatman at 2:30 PM on May 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
I dunno, to me this sounds a bit like saying "it is easier to sail a banana in the Pacific Ocean than to lasso a snake". I do not know any grown women, even the ones who proudly identify as feminists, even the ones who (like me) were raised by feminist dads who were happy and enthusiastic about raising feminist daughters, who don't struggle with some amount of internalized misogyny, and conversely I know lots of thoughtful dudes who recognize and try to remedy toxic masculinity, including in themselves. This seems sort of related to the different ways emotionality and socialization is gendered--the "boys-will-be-boys" sense that boys are inherently difficult and willful, and on the flip side the way girls are taught very early to not make internal sadness or conflict other people's problems.
posted by Krom Tatman at 2:30 PM on May 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
I will admit to being someone who would prefer a boy over a girl, specifically because I think it will be easier to raise a feminist son than it will be to combat all the patriarchy that fucks so many women in our culture
I always say the best beginning to raising a hypothetical feminist son is to let him know you're glad he's not a girl.
also though, fighting the patriarchy that fucks women over isn't easy, no, but he's hardly going to be excused from doing his very best at it if he's a feminist, unless he is to be a play-feminist in name only.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:07 PM on May 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
I always say the best beginning to raising a hypothetical feminist son is to let him know you're glad he's not a girl.
also though, fighting the patriarchy that fucks women over isn't easy, no, but he's hardly going to be excused from doing his very best at it if he's a feminist, unless he is to be a play-feminist in name only.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:07 PM on May 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
My parents had two daughters and I'm the oldest. I sometimes joke that I was my dad's son because he taught me how to use tools and change the oil in my car and we argued politics. My sister was the daddy's girl and it was clear that he saw her as a girl who needed protection and flattery. I don't know how much of that was his inclination or our personalities, but I'm happy to have learned what he taught me. It speaks to his indifference to gender but also to the separation of genders.
posted by bendy at 8:18 PM on May 27, 2016
posted by bendy at 8:18 PM on May 27, 2016
I remember a marriage counselor writing that if a man decided a marriage was done there was a chance it could be rescued, but if a women decided a marriage was done then it was too late. I'm not sure if that's universally true, but it sounded true to me and so has stuck in my mind for years.
I also remember the horrible ways in which some teenage boys treated most teenage girls when I was growing up.
Putting those two things together, I can't help but wonder how much of this is driven by women's memory of the trauma they experienced at the hands of teenage boys, and a fear of facing that again all by themselves. I'm not a woman, so this is pure speculation; take it for what it's worth.
posted by clawsoon at 8:18 AM on May 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I also remember the horrible ways in which some teenage boys treated most teenage girls when I was growing up.
Putting those two things together, I can't help but wonder how much of this is driven by women's memory of the trauma they experienced at the hands of teenage boys, and a fear of facing that again all by themselves. I'm not a woman, so this is pure speculation; take it for what it's worth.
posted by clawsoon at 8:18 AM on May 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I find it disturbing that I see a lot of parents who go out of their way not to enforce gender norms with their girls, but let gender norms fall where they may for their boys. "I don't let my daughter wear pink", "I don't let my daughter watch princess movies", etc, etc. I see those posts all the time on Facebook. "My son wears nail polish" not so much. Whenever I see a new more gender neutral clothing line start up, it's almost always about making dresses with dinosaurs on them -- it almost never seems to be about how boys could wear cupcakes and butterflies.
I think when you see people talk about these things, you have to remember that they are dealing with a sample size of maybe 1 or 2 children. Sometimes more but they can only react to their small family microcosm. I feel pretty strongly about raising my daughter to be a feminist but also just an all around great person who is smart and empathetic and strong. I have a knee-jerk anti-Princess streak but I've really had to challenge my own anti-femininity bias. Femininity is a cage. But it's hard to discern what the exact elements are that make up its bars. Any woman knows, being a woman is a moving target and often in the eye of the beholder. It's a constant game of Calvin Ball.
I was just in a Carter's looking for swim shorts for my daughter and went over to the boys stuff to see if I could find more options. I was pleased that they had some shorts which were not "aggressively boy colored." My SIL who was with me and never bothers with that stuff for her two girls (they are a palette of pinks and purples and sparkles and characters) didn't seem to know what I meant by "boy colors." Their clothing tends to be soooo dark. Grey, dark green, black, navy. Primary red is about as friendly and cheerful as their clothing gets. And my daughter can sniff out a boy item that I've snuck into her drawers like a bloodhound. The cuts are so different. Boys at age 5 are boxy, baggy, straight lines and dark. Girls are fitted, contoured, "skinny" and a confection of bright pastels. I'm so pleased that some stores are starting to blend toward the middle. We ended up getting all the girls tie-dye blue swim shirts and lime green bottoms. It's something that the boys could wear but I can't imagine most parents, unless their boy is specific about wanting things from the other side of the aisle, bothering to peruse the girl clothes for options. Why should they? There is no reward there.
I think I would really struggle just as much with how to raise a boy in a way that frees him from some of this toxic cultural stuff. It's quite a trick advertisers and corporations have played on us, though, equating purchasing of products with performing femininity or masculinity.
In regards to the article (which is so depressing), I asked my husband the other day if wearing makeup was a bad example for our daughter. She's been asking me about it and, as I've been either middling or hostile toward femininity for most of my life, it's a hard thing to explain. He snorted and said, "No." I probed a bit there and he just wasn't really able to engage on it. He doesn't need to think about it.
posted by amanda at 9:39 AM on May 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
I think when you see people talk about these things, you have to remember that they are dealing with a sample size of maybe 1 or 2 children. Sometimes more but they can only react to their small family microcosm. I feel pretty strongly about raising my daughter to be a feminist but also just an all around great person who is smart and empathetic and strong. I have a knee-jerk anti-Princess streak but I've really had to challenge my own anti-femininity bias. Femininity is a cage. But it's hard to discern what the exact elements are that make up its bars. Any woman knows, being a woman is a moving target and often in the eye of the beholder. It's a constant game of Calvin Ball.
I was just in a Carter's looking for swim shorts for my daughter and went over to the boys stuff to see if I could find more options. I was pleased that they had some shorts which were not "aggressively boy colored." My SIL who was with me and never bothers with that stuff for her two girls (they are a palette of pinks and purples and sparkles and characters) didn't seem to know what I meant by "boy colors." Their clothing tends to be soooo dark. Grey, dark green, black, navy. Primary red is about as friendly and cheerful as their clothing gets. And my daughter can sniff out a boy item that I've snuck into her drawers like a bloodhound. The cuts are so different. Boys at age 5 are boxy, baggy, straight lines and dark. Girls are fitted, contoured, "skinny" and a confection of bright pastels. I'm so pleased that some stores are starting to blend toward the middle. We ended up getting all the girls tie-dye blue swim shirts and lime green bottoms. It's something that the boys could wear but I can't imagine most parents, unless their boy is specific about wanting things from the other side of the aisle, bothering to peruse the girl clothes for options. Why should they? There is no reward there.
I think I would really struggle just as much with how to raise a boy in a way that frees him from some of this toxic cultural stuff. It's quite a trick advertisers and corporations have played on us, though, equating purchasing of products with performing femininity or masculinity.
In regards to the article (which is so depressing), I asked my husband the other day if wearing makeup was a bad example for our daughter. She's been asking me about it and, as I've been either middling or hostile toward femininity for most of my life, it's a hard thing to explain. He snorted and said, "No." I probed a bit there and he just wasn't really able to engage on it. He doesn't need to think about it.
posted by amanda at 9:39 AM on May 30, 2016 [8 favorites]
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I have one of each of the same age and this makes absolutely no sense to me.
First off, worrying you're going to screw a kid up is part and parcel of being a parent. :)
Second, another large part of being a parent is being present in your kid(s) life (lives), giving them your love, comfort, empathy, time, assistance, understanding etc. Being a teacher and a student at the same time. Both of my kids are into a ton of things that didn't exist when I was their age. If you can't relate to what excites them, try, or introduce things that you enjoy and see if they like them too. When they hit school age, work on their schoolwork with them. Read to them and let them read to you. Etc. There are a million ways to be present that aren't necessarily gender specific.
I feel like that's a truly damaging perspective to bring to the table. That as a parent, you're fundamentally clueless about daughters. Daughters aren't mystical, unknowable creatures, and treating raising one as an insurmountable problem is a terrible attitude to have.
posted by zarq at 5:11 PM on May 26, 2016 [109 favorites]