But does it still cost more?

June 9, 2016 9:41 AM

Is this the end of 'shrink it and pink it'?
posted by almostmanda (63 comments total)

"In 2016, marketing to women is all about being inclusive. That doesn’t mean excluding men; it means excluding stereotypes.”

Yes, and can we please apply this approach to pretty much everything else?
posted by smirkette at 9:47 AM on June 9, 2016 [6 favorites]

After her beer was unveiled in May, McGuire was shocked by the backlash. She sat up at night scrolling through the comments and mulling her 20 years in the male-dominated brewing community. She says she believed she could make a beer everyone would like, while using the name and packaging to celebrate that it was brewed by a woman.

As a woman who loves craft beer and is in fact attending the largest get-together of lady beer drinkers in North America on Saturday, yeah, I understand she thought she was doing a good thing by marketing it this way, but I would have been super disappointed had I come across this beer in the wild. I don't need special marketing for what I drink and I especially don't need pink marketing.
posted by Kitteh at 9:52 AM on June 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

When pink is a color women can choose, they will choose it. When it is the only color that isn’t the ‘normal’ one, women will not choose it,” Barletta said. “They don’t want it forced on them.”

So much this ^^^^

And I can't get over how much I dislike everything about High Heel Brewing. From the name, to the pink, to the fact that the pictures on their facebook page show them dressed like people in marketing, not brewers.

This is what female brewers who make beer that I want to drink look like. It helps that the beer is damn tasty too.
posted by sparklemotion at 9:53 AM on June 9, 2016 [12 favorites]

I feel for McGuire -- the reason that pink dark raspberry "pops" on the shelf is because so many other beermakers wouldn't dare put it on their packaging for fear of being thought of as "the girly beer". So even if she's legitimately just thinking, "Well, I like the way this looks" and not trying to pander to women, she's still getting kicked by the patriarchy.
posted by Etrigan at 9:59 AM on June 9, 2016 [9 favorites]

From the comments:

"Shrink it and pink it" seems to have influenced article placement too. Why didn't this go in the business section? "Oh, right," the thinking went, "it's about women, therefore it goes in the Style."
posted by Orange Dinosaur Slide at 10:03 AM on June 9, 2016 [74 favorites]

Kitteh, please post about this event; I want to know more.

I grew in Ohio. Schoenling made Little Kings Cream Ale, which was packaged in 8 oz bottles. It was widely considered chick beer, on the theory that girls don't drink as fast,, and a smaller portion didn't get warm. Whatever. Males drank Little Kings, too. Pretty good beer. Schoenling went out of business, but some wonderful group has revived Little Kings, so when I go through Ohio, I can stop at the drive-through beer place in the south end of my old hometown, pick up a couple 8 packs, get a Cassano's thin crust pizza, and have a party full of reminiscence.

Other than that, the continued gender-ization of products pisses me off. It's gotten nearly impossible to just buy tshirts for little kids that aren't either boy-marketed with footballs and trucks or girl-marketed with princess crap and glitter, and this process applies to everything. Because it's profitable. It's a way to sell more stuff. And people have just fallen in line and buy it up.
posted by theora55 at 10:09 AM on June 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's gotten nearly impossible to just buy tshirts for little kids that aren't either boy-marketed with footballs and trucks or girl-marketed with princess crap and glitter, and this process applies to everything.

I have to go to the boys section to get baby clothes with dinosaurs on them for my little girl. Fuck you, marketers.
posted by Etrigan at 10:11 AM on June 9, 2016 [29 favorites]

Go for giant and purple. Seems more appealing that small and pinkish.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 10:15 AM on June 9, 2016

I never understood how, for products that everyone uses, women are supposed to pay more for the same stuff, but we aren't paid as well as men are, on the whole, so we're getting sliced on both ends of the money thing.

Thankfully I figured it out as a teen that there was no difference in the vast majority of of gendered products. Except t-shirts. And you would think that economy of scale meant that a t-shirt made to fit women would not cost any more than mens' t-shirts, but such is not the case. I can go to Target right now, and a 3-pack of plain white t's, which would never fit properly on me, cost $6.99, but in the women's section, I have to spend $8 just on one t-shirt. And it's not that I don't want the option because there's usually a difference in cloth thickness and quality, but they can't make a 3-pack of plain t-shirts cut for women that also cost $6.99? Sometimes I just want a plain white cotton t-shirt that fits. I don't want to pay any more for it than a man would. /rant off

As for pink, I truly loathe pink. The only pink I like is the "Think Pink" segment from Funny Face. Oh, and the song "Pink Thing" by XTC. I do not own one pink object and haven't since I left for college. I would pass up this woman's beer just because of the pink, unfortunately.
posted by droplet at 10:16 AM on June 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

That hot pink gun in the pic at the top is pretty awesome, though.
posted by Sangermaine at 10:18 AM on June 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

That hot pink gun in the pic at the top is pretty awesome, though.

Is that what those mysterious commercials are talking about when they say "feminine protection"?
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:24 AM on June 9, 2016 [12 favorites]

See, I love the color pink (or, I guess, Raspberry). When I customized my Moto X smartphone, out of all the possible colors, I chose a back that is definitely pink and it makes me happy every day.

But I hate that my gender is marked and I hate buying pink "women's" products at half the quality and twice the price.
posted by muddgirl at 10:25 AM on June 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

I went through a period of hating pink for just this reason: I hated that it was the "girl" color, and I didn't want to be defined by being a girl. I also, of course, was going through that time when I didn't really want to be thought of as being a girl at all--because I wasn't stupid, I knew girls weren't as cool as boys, I got that message loud and clear.

Now I like pink, and don't avoid it, except when it's part of pink marketing. It makes me so angry.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 10:25 AM on June 9, 2016 [14 favorites]

I'm an undertaker, but I love the color pink. I love that I can wear a pink tie to work and if anyone gives me side-eye, I can just say, "Breast cancer awareness."
posted by ColdChef at 10:26 AM on June 9, 2016 [14 favorites]

I am entertained wondering if there are, like, pink flow cytometers aimed at lady-person scientists. Pink mass spectrometers.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 10:27 AM on June 9, 2016 [12 favorites]

"What does gender have to do with beer?"

Can we please start complaining about this more?

I mean, I don't even like the taste of "A Little Simpin' Sumpin'" but even as a guy the name and packaging make me hate it more.
posted by GuyZero at 10:27 AM on June 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Is that what those mysterious commercials are talking about when they say "feminine protection"?

chartreuse flamethrowers
posted by poffin boffin at 10:27 AM on June 9, 2016 [13 favorites]

Pink CT scanners, for patients who identify as female.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 10:28 AM on June 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Here are some brewers
posted by beerperson at 10:31 AM on June 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

It all started with pinking shears.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 10:34 AM on June 9, 2016 [13 favorites]

I don't generally buy pink things because I have just come to associate the color with poor quality. If something comes in regular and pink, the pink version is all too often going to be smaller and flimsier and just generally worse. The head of a pink hammer is going to fly off and kill someone if you actually try to use it. A pink-packaged beer marketed toward women is going to be babby's first introductory beer, watered down, too sweet, perfumey, gimmicky, and/or possibly even an ounce or two smaller than a regular bottle. When I see a pink version of something on a store shelf, I normally don't even consider it.

None of these things might be true of a specific thing, but that's just what I've come to associate with it, and I suspect I'm not the only one.

I do like Wire's 'for ladies only' album Pink Flag, though.
posted by ernielundquist at 10:38 AM on June 9, 2016 [17 favorites]

Metafilter: Giant and purpleblue, more appealing than small and pinkish.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 10:38 AM on June 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

I went through a period of hating pink for just this reason: I hated that it was the "girl" color, and I didn't want to be defined by being a girl.

At this point, I feel like I know more adult woman who dislike pink for this reason than I do adult men who think pink is a girl color. I feel like most of my guy friends have at least one pink shirt in regular rotation.

I actually like the pattern and "raspberry" on the beer in question, but I'm a man so my perspective is obviously different. I would also consider purchasing an ale brewed with pear and passion fruit juice, despite the terrible marketing. It sounds like it could be tasty.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:40 AM on June 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

I can understand the confusion between marketing something as "by her" vs "for her." What I don't get is how someone thought the naming their brewing company "High Heel" was somehow celebratory of women's liberation.

Just pick something that's a pun, like Women's Libation.
posted by pwnguin at 10:40 AM on June 9, 2016 [20 favorites]

Salmon pink, peach, now these pack a bit of a punch and match with khakhis
posted by infini at 10:45 AM on June 9, 2016

tsk even The Books have music just for women.
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 10:50 AM on June 9, 2016

In an interview I did for my podcast (yes, finally, there is an episode for people to listen to!), I was talking with Ren Navarro of SOBDL (Society of Beer Drinking Ladies) about the questions she'd have to field as a beer representative in tasting rooms. "Yeah, I'd like to pick up some beer for my wife? What do you think she would like? Do you have anything light or low-cal?" And aside from wanting to reach over and strangle the guys, she would just bluntly ask, "Have you tried asking your wife what kind of beer she likes? Then I can narrow it down for you."
posted by Kitteh at 10:54 AM on June 9, 2016 [5 favorites]

the reason that pink dark raspberry "pops" on the shelf is because so many other beermakers wouldn't dare put it on their packaging for fear of being thought of as "the girly beer".

There are a lot of raspberry beers out there and a fair number of "pink" beers, too. I quite liked Oskar Blues' "Tickled Pink" (tho they seemed to have discontinued it, dammit—I blame the Patriarchy.) I have not tried Short Dan's Pink Skirt.
posted by octobersurprise at 11:07 AM on June 9, 2016

Hey, here's an idea craft brewers!

Stop hiring bros with eighth-grade senses of humor to design your labels. You make great stuff in absolutely shitty packaging. Can you blame Slingback for trying to class it up a little?
posted by JoeZydeco at 11:10 AM on June 9, 2016 [10 favorites]

I got a pink case for my phone because it was the cheapest option (of the sturdy, drop-this-off-a-cliff case that I wanted), and because I wasn't going to pay more for a color.
posted by Cozybee at 11:10 AM on June 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yes, I could do without the sexist beer labels too. There's a few offenders at some Quebec microbreweries I like, mostly variations on dumb blonde girlfriend stereotypes. Argh.
posted by Kitteh at 11:15 AM on June 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

Stop hiring bros with eighth-grade senses of humor to design your labels.

I'm doing everything I can
posted by beerperson at 11:17 AM on June 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

My cousin's wife is very into the #ClothesWithoutLimits movement. It is very frustrating, in the first place, to be unable to buy children's clothes without shit printed all over them (adults get solids, or simple stripes or the occasional paisley print, why not kids) and in the second place to have all that shit be so regressive with regard to gender norms.

Aside from it being annoying that this article was "style" and not "business", it also offered very little evidence beyond one woman brewer facing backlash for doing what all industries do as evidence that there is any end in sight to "shrink it and pink it".
posted by crush-onastick at 11:18 AM on June 9, 2016 [8 favorites]

I had been rabidly anti-pink most of my life, because when I wear it it makes me look ill and also gendered crap girly princess blahblah.

But I ended up buying a hot pink camping chair because it was the only one left (It did not have sparkles or cost more) and now I kind of like it. It's the only pink thing I own but I smile when I see it. Hot pink, when it's not forced on you or omnipresent, is kind of a neat color.

Also every single being in my house including the cat is male, except for me. I think I may have become more girly in self-defense.
posted by emjaybee at 11:28 AM on June 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Just pick something that's a pun, like Women's Libation.

Delicious Male Tears
Misandry Mead
Beers Before Bros
posted by emjaybee at 11:36 AM on June 9, 2016 [25 favorites]

The craft beer industry in general is very bro-y and consists mostly of small businesses which often don't have the wherewithal or resources to diversify their workforce. And recruiting isn't the end of the job, for management -- the environment in a brewery is frequently very hostile to women (and racial and sexual minorities but that's another active thread) and without that wherewithal and/or resources retaining employees who are not straight white dudes is hard. Which isn't to excuse the problem obviously but hopefully to help define its edges.
posted by beerperson at 11:41 AM on June 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

I have always loved the colour pink, partially because my mother flatly refused to buy me any pink clothes, believing that they looked bad with my bright red hair and pale skin. When I started buying my own clothes, I bought plenty of pink things. Would I buy a pink hammer or pink scissors and pay more for them? No. But I still love pink. It's a nice colour. I have nothing to add about the beer, because I absolutely detest beer but there sure are some weirdly misogynistic packaging concepts for wine, too.
posted by alltomorrowsparties at 11:41 AM on June 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

I mean, I don't even like the taste of "A Little Simpin' Sumpin'" but even as a guy the name and packaging make me hate it more.

I always thought that was referring to weed hahahahaha...wow I'm dense. or high. maybe both.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:58 AM on June 9, 2016

Is it referring to weed? I dunno. Am I out of touch? Possibly.
posted by GuyZero at 12:03 PM on June 9, 2016

the only reason I ever thought that is because my friends and I would commonly ask each "hey you wanna little sumpin sumpin?" when we were all gonna go somewhere to get high.

like really that's the only reason I ever associated with weed.
posted by Annika Cicada at 12:07 PM on June 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

I used to use Tom's of Maine deodorant. I could never find the regular (i.e., male) variety in unscented – only the "for her" version, with the pink label.

So I just started buying and using the "for her" variety. It worked pretty well. Turns out that it's pH balanced for whoever the fuck wants to use it.

I couldn't care less if you want to offer your product in different colors (or scents, or designs, or whatever). But don't tell me which one is appropriate for me based on my gender. It's just so tedious and patronizing. I'm a goddamn adult. I don't need some marketing department to say "You're a boy! See the blue package and the blocky font and the tough name? This is boy soap! You should use this one!"

I mean, I'm a pretty conventional cis dude – and nine times out of ten, I'd prefer more traditionally masculine scents and colors over more traditionally feminine scents and colors. But don't pre-emptively assign those markers to people. Don't contribute to this pervasive notion that certain tastes and interests are "for" one gender or another. Just put the pink shit on the shelf (and the gunmetal stuff, and the floral-scented stuff, and the cedar-scented stuff), and let whoever wants it buy it.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 12:07 PM on June 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Delicious Male Tears
Misandry Mead
Beers Before Bros

Nineteenth Amendment Stout
Fuck The Patriarchy Porter
IPAs before MRAs
posted by Mayor West at 12:40 PM on June 9, 2016 [27 favorites]

Oh man I am fighting hard not to post beer names here
posted by beerperson at 12:43 PM on June 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Regarding t-shirts, if you're a person with breasts and hips, you're not gonna like the way men's shirts fit. There really is a difference. It sucks that women's cost so much more but as a trans guy I can tell you it's not completely arbitrary; they can't just cut women's shirt fabric in straight lines. Same with men's jeans - you have to buy a large enough size that they fit over your hips, and then you have a big gap at the waist. The absurdly huge pockets make it 100% worth it though.
posted by AFABulous at 12:48 PM on June 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm a person with breasts and hips and while there is a difference in fit, for sure, I happen to be fine with the way men's shirts fit me.
posted by Too-Ticky at 12:59 PM on June 9, 2016 [4 favorites]

Susan B Amber
posted by Carillon at 12:59 PM on June 9, 2016 [15 favorites]

My son's pink play kitchen doesn't seem to have done any permanent damage, but I'll let you guys know if he wakes up one day in a woman's body, freaky-Friday style.
posted by blue_beetle at 1:03 PM on June 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

One thing that's tangentially frustrating is, I spend way too much time trying to find tools that fit my tiny stubby raccoon-paw hands while still being decent quality. Reviews are hard to rely on, because it seems like some reviewers are enough gratified by girl-power validation of wrenches with daisies on them just existing, to be very picky about them being maybe not-so-great manufacture. I don't mean that to sound contemptuous - sometimes the littlest 'yes you have some sort of place here' feels enormous in a lifetime of 'this stuff isn't for you.' I've definitely noticed a generational difference in pink stuff appreciation. Someone's buying that stuff. I don't want to shit on or discourage people getting comfortable and confident with new skills.

I just want to use a decent staple gun one-handed, dammit.
posted by Fantods at 1:12 PM on June 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Adjacent These folks are one of the oldest breweries in the country. I believe women run it now.
posted by LuckyMonkey21 at 2:00 PM on June 9, 2016

I spend way too much time trying to find tools that fit my tiny stubby raccoon-paw hands while still being decent quality.

i feel the same way about machetes
posted by poffin boffin at 2:01 PM on June 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

I am entertained wondering if there are, like, pink flow cytometers aimed at lady-person scientists. Pink mass spectrometers.

I don't know about that, but at the last place I worked, my coworkers totally wanted to get some hot pink bioreactor controllers (not "for ladies," they came in all sorts of colors). However the request was rejected because the higher-ups would only allow blue to match the boring company color scheme.

However we did get some pastel microfuge tubes and those are great for organizing samples.
posted by picklenickle at 2:07 PM on June 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

Huh... I thought this was going to be about all the stuff going in the other direction: Paint it black and gray and add "for men" to the name. Because while women were stupidly using men's pens all these years, apparently men were using women's hand lotion, yogurt, or nail trimmers, or pocky.
posted by If only I had a penguin... at 3:19 PM on June 9, 2016 [2 favorites]

In fairness those gigantic bottles of "mens" hand lotion are probably more than just a marketing gimmick...
posted by GuyZero at 3:40 PM on June 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

I am entertained wondering if there are, like, pink flow cytometers aimed at lady-person scientists. Pink mass spectrometers.


Yep! I used a pink flow cytometer today, in fact. The Guava easyCyte, by Millipore comes in magenta now, but the several-years-old model we have is straight up pink. It is not, to my knowledge, marketed to lady scientists though.
posted by juliapangolin at 6:05 PM on June 9, 2016 [3 favorites]

That hot pink gun in the pic at the top is pretty awesome, though.

The daughter of someone I know insisted that he buy her a pink gun and that she was no longer willing to shoot non-pink guns. So the pink marketing is still working on some people.
posted by Dip Flash at 6:32 PM on June 9, 2016

If something comes in regular and pink, the pink version is all too often going to be smaller and flimsier and just generally worse.

No way.
posted by sneebler at 7:00 PM on June 9, 2016

I just want to use a decent staple gun one-handed, dammit.

If it's any consolation, I'm a man with man-sized hands and I haven't been able to find a decent properly-sized staple gun (or many similar tools) for years. Except for the one I liberated from a former employer years ago, they're made for giant Neanderthal hands…
posted by Pinback at 7:47 PM on June 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

If only I had a penguin...: "apparently men were using women's hand lotion, yogurt, or nail trimmers, or pocky."

Men's Pocky isn't just regular Pocky with a label swap. If memory serves me (it's been at least a decade), it's made with dark chocolate (or perhaps just greater cocoa content - either way, it tastes a little bitter). That's not to say that there's any reason whatsoever for it to be called Men's Pocky instead of a more sane name like "Pocky Black" or "Pocky Bitter".
posted by Bugbread at 8:50 PM on June 9, 2016

> I do not own one pink object and haven't since I left for college. I would pass up this woman's beer just because of the pink, unfortunately.

[fistbump] I feel the same way. I can recognize that it's maybe a little irrational, but godsdamnit, I fucking hate the color pink.
posted by desuetude at 11:29 PM on June 9, 2016 [1 favorite]

Huh... I thought this was going to be about all the stuff going in the other direction: Paint it black and gray and add "for men" to the name.

Nah, the signs of men's premium markups is camo coloring and the word "Tactical."
posted by pwnguin at 12:54 AM on June 10, 2016 [3 favorites]

I know I would just be exacerbating the problem, but I would totally buy "Tactical Yogurt" in urban camouflage cups.
posted by Bugbread at 1:23 AM on June 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

I mean, I'm a pretty conventional cis dude – and nine times out of ten, I'd prefer more traditionally masculine scents and colors over more traditionally feminine scents and colors. But don't pre-emptively assign those markers to people. Don't contribute to this pervasive notion that certain tastes and interests are "for" one gender or another.

One time in Sephora and friend and I were smelling all the perfume when she said you gotta check out this one. So she found it, I smelled, I spritzed and fell in perfume love. I'm not a regular scent wearer so I just asked for a sample. The salesperson commented while making it up about it being a very popular scent and that whatever male I was getting to try it would probably love it.

My first thought, "It's a male product? I guess I shouldn't get it it." I actually felt disappointed and bummed, almost like I wasn't allowed to buy it. Thankfully I caught myself and cancelled those thoughts but it was a lesson to myself about how much boy things and girls things is unconciously implanted in my brain. Even so it STILL feels like I'm being little kid rebellious when I do wear it. Ha ha I'm a girl wearing a boy thing! So stupid I know but it's hard to get it all out and keep it out.
posted by Jalliah at 4:19 AM on June 10, 2016 [5 favorites]

if only I had a penguin…: I wish I had photoshopped this, but alas, it's a straight photo.

(I bought the ungendered store brand, which was also—no, really—cheaper. I also featured this photo as no. 95 in the photo-a-day series I ran last year, and titled it "Weltschmerz."

Why? Because it's a bit of flimsy rolled-up cardboard with two bits of cotton on either end why would any man be insecure enough to look for a "male" version why would I need a female version I mean seriously arrrrrrrgh can be summarized as "world pain"===weltschmerz.)
posted by seyirci at 6:47 PM on June 10, 2016