ChristianMingle etc. to be more inclusive
July 5, 2016 7:25 AM Subscribe
A court has ordered Spark Networks (which runs ChristianMingle, JDate, and a wide variety of other religious and non-religious dating sites) to facilitate same-sex connections. As of the initiation of the suit in 2013, the various sites under Spark simply did not allow such connections, asking users for their gender and assuming they were looking for opposite-sex dates.
Spark will pay the complainants $9,000 apiece and $450,000 for their legal costs, and make changes to their service over the next two years to allow users to specify what gender they wish to meet.
Spark will pay the complainants $9,000 apiece and $450,000 for their legal costs, and make changes to their service over the next two years to allow users to specify what gender they wish to meet.
"I thought ChristianMingle was a website for Christians to mingle," wrote one commenter on a forum post about the ruling. "I guess that's not allowed."
Yes, because no gays are Christian, by definition, and of course we can't have their cooties on ChristianMingle.com. Fuck off, asshole.
posted by blucevalo at 7:30 AM on July 5, 2016 [21 favorites]
Yes, because no gays are Christian, by definition, and of course we can't have their cooties on ChristianMingle.com. Fuck off, asshole.
posted by blucevalo at 7:30 AM on July 5, 2016 [21 favorites]
Isn't the very concept of having separate sites for Christians, Jews, and Mormons also kind of discriminatory under California law though? Most sites just have a "check this box for your religion" and let you sort by it. I would think the religious aspect would also have been struck down.
posted by corb at 7:31 AM on July 5, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by corb at 7:31 AM on July 5, 2016 [11 favorites]
In part because my parents are in town and I'm imagining the conversation I will attempt to avoid having with my father about this, this isn't a finding that what ChristianMingle did was discrimination, it's a settlement (albiet one that's incorporated in a court order, if I'm reading right). ChristianMingle agreed to do this.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 7:32 AM on July 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 7:32 AM on July 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
Success Story: Kayla & Donald #MetOnMingle and found #love. #onlinedating #dating
Kayla has a tattoo on her left chest. Right there next to the "kill the gays" in Leviticus...
posted by Talez at 7:33 AM on July 5, 2016 [26 favorites]
Kayla has a tattoo on her left chest. Right there next to the "kill the gays" in Leviticus...
Leviticus 19:28Christian mingle indeed.
Do not cut your bodies for the dead or put tattoo marks on yourselves. I am the Lord.
posted by Talez at 7:33 AM on July 5, 2016 [26 favorites]
A court has ordered Spark Networks (which runs ChristianMingle, JDate, and a wide variety of other religious and non-religious dating sites) to facilitate same-sex connections.
This is inaccurate. According to the article, the two parties reached a settlement and all the judge did was approve it.
posted by teraflop at 7:35 AM on July 5, 2016 [13 favorites]
This is inaccurate. According to the article, the two parties reached a settlement and all the judge did was approve it.
posted by teraflop at 7:35 AM on July 5, 2016 [13 favorites]
That won't stop a zillion fevered emails about Activist Judges Infringing On Religious Freedom tho
posted by beerperson at 7:37 AM on July 5, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by beerperson at 7:37 AM on July 5, 2016 [9 favorites]
Oh I see, so they basically cut a deal to avoid too much scrutiny which may have been far less kind? Gotcha, thanks.
posted by corb at 7:39 AM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by corb at 7:39 AM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
Spark Networks (which runs ChristianMingle, JDate, and a wide variety of other religious and non-religious dating sites
I'm enjoying the laments about violations of faith from a company that clearly doesn't actually have any loyalty to a specific faith, but is just willing to cash in on yours via targeted marketing.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:43 AM on July 5, 2016 [45 favorites]
I'm enjoying the laments about violations of faith from a company that clearly doesn't actually have any loyalty to a specific faith, but is just willing to cash in on yours via targeted marketing.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:43 AM on July 5, 2016 [45 favorites]
Are thegays (rural ones, of course) allowed on FarmersOnly.com?
posted by zakur at 7:44 AM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by zakur at 7:44 AM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
JDate isn't exclusively Jewish for that matter. I've got (at least) one non-Jewish friend who's been a member.
posted by adamrice at 7:46 AM on July 5, 2016
posted by adamrice at 7:46 AM on July 5, 2016
"I thought ChristianMingle was a website for Christians to mingle," wrote one commenter on a forum post about the ruling. "I guess that's not allowed."
It's like South Park come to life.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:50 AM on July 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
It's like South Park come to life.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:50 AM on July 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
A court has ordered Spark Networks (which runs ChristianMingle, JDate, and a wide variety of other religious and non-religious dating sites) to facilitate same-sex connections.
Me: lol
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:50 AM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Me: lol
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:50 AM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
JDate still makes me kind of think "Why would someone seek out Java developers to date?'
posted by thelonius at 7:55 AM on July 5, 2016 [78 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 7:55 AM on July 5, 2016 [78 favorites]
It's like South Park come to life.
They took 'er derts!
posted by AndrewInDC at 7:59 AM on July 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
They took 'er derts!
posted by AndrewInDC at 7:59 AM on July 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
"I thought ChristianMingle was a website for Christians to mingle," wrote one commenter on a forum post about the ruling. "I guess that's not allowed."
Non-Christians can join Christian Mingle, so that commenter was wrong even before the court settlement.
posted by FJT at 8:02 AM on July 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
Non-Christians can join Christian Mingle, so that commenter was wrong even before the court settlement.
posted by FJT at 8:02 AM on July 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
Isn't the very concept of having separate sites for Christians, Jews, and Mormons also kind of discriminatory
Not if they they don't restrict membership, I guess. It's more like a Serving Suggestion.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:03 AM on July 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
Not if they they don't restrict membership, I guess. It's more like a Serving Suggestion.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:03 AM on July 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
Since all dating sites are the same, this doesn't really seem like a victory. There's nothing SS people would get at any of these places that they can't get at all the other ones. (Not saying discrimination should be allowed to exist of course.)
posted by Melismata at 8:08 AM on July 5, 2016
posted by Melismata at 8:08 AM on July 5, 2016
JDate still makes me kind of think "Why would someone seek out Java developers to date?'
Rich culture, great food, beautiful ancient language spoken by increasingly few, and, of course, one of the three core technologies of World Wide Web.
posted by maxsparber at 8:10 AM on July 5, 2016 [25 favorites]
Rich culture, great food, beautiful ancient language spoken by increasingly few, and, of course, one of the three core technologies of World Wide Web.
posted by maxsparber at 8:10 AM on July 5, 2016 [25 favorites]
It remains funny to me that getting a more equal society entails going into “optional” locations (lunch counters at one time, dating websites today) and demanding equal service. I’m not saying it isn’t essential, because in a macro sense it certainly is - especially since these services are less optional than they appear at first glance, but in a micro sense it always comes across as strange. I think that this is at least partly because gloating over the victory frames it not as “now gay Christians can have this social hub available to them, thus expanding society’s acknowledgement of them! Civil rights wins!” but as “Ha! We’ve once again forced ourselves into a space where we aren’t wanted, and we don’t want to be here other, but now you can’t make us leave!”
Also, it’s worth noting that the Judge hasn’t ordered anything - she approved an out-of-court settlement. This case isn’t being appealed or going any further.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:10 AM on July 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
Also, it’s worth noting that the Judge hasn’t ordered anything - she approved an out-of-court settlement. This case isn’t being appealed or going any further.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:10 AM on July 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
I dunno, I always figured that not allowing same-sex searches provided exactly the blazing, 40-foot-high letters that we needed to recognize that we should not give our money to bigoted assholes. Kind of like how eHarmony rejected my profile when it became apparent I wasn't on board with their subtler-but-just-as-douchey religious undertones. I say we should encourage people who are jerks to act like jerks and say jerkish things. Then we can avoid them. Like the rattle on a rattlesnake. It is nature's way.
Suing them into oblivion is nice too, though.
posted by Mayor West at 8:14 AM on July 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
Suing them into oblivion is nice too, though.
posted by Mayor West at 8:14 AM on July 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
JDate still makes me kind of think "Why would someone seek out Java developers to date?'
JDate now = new JDate();
1 warning(s)Hmm.
JCalendar now = JCalendar.getInstance();
now.setTime(System.currentTimeMillis());
1 warning(s)
No, that's not right either.
JGregorianCalendar now = new JGregorianCalendar();
now.setUnit(Isotope.CESIUM_133, 9192631770L);
1 warning(s)Goddamnit, I'll just do this in Python.
posted by Mayor West at 8:23 AM on July 5, 2016 [71 favorites]
Are thegays (rural ones, of course) allowed on FarmersOnly.com?
I actually know the answer to this because of fiction research. (No I'm serious.) From their site FAQ:
We welcome all users, whether straight or gay. However, harassing members with a different sexual preference from your own is a violation of our terms of use.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 8:23 AM on July 5, 2016 [40 favorites]
I actually know the answer to this because of fiction research. (No I'm serious.) From their site FAQ:
We welcome all users, whether straight or gay. However, harassing members with a different sexual preference from your own is a violation of our terms of use.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 8:23 AM on July 5, 2016 [40 favorites]
I believe the court ruling also stated they have to change their name to 'Christian Tingle.'
posted by My Dad at 8:24 AM on July 5, 2016 [27 favorites]
posted by My Dad at 8:24 AM on July 5, 2016 [27 favorites]
Goddamnit, I'll just do this in Python.
import date
date.haveDate
That was quick!
posted by Talez at 8:30 AM on July 5, 2016 [15 favorites]
import date
date.haveDate
That was quick!
posted by Talez at 8:30 AM on July 5, 2016 [15 favorites]
> I dunno, I always figured that not allowing same-sex searches provided exactly the blazing, 40-foot-high letters that we needed to recognize that we should not give our money to bigoted assholes.
I pretty much never want to rely on The Market to solve discrimination. It has proved repeatedly to be uninterested in doing so, whether it be sex, race, or any other kind of -ism.
I mean, I can appreciate when bigots clearly wave their bigotry flag so I know who/what to avoid, but that can also just be a sign for other bigots to come along and join the party.
posted by rtha at 8:40 AM on July 5, 2016 [29 favorites]
I pretty much never want to rely on The Market to solve discrimination. It has proved repeatedly to be uninterested in doing so, whether it be sex, race, or any other kind of -ism.
I mean, I can appreciate when bigots clearly wave their bigotry flag so I know who/what to avoid, but that can also just be a sign for other bigots to come along and join the party.
posted by rtha at 8:40 AM on July 5, 2016 [29 favorites]
To be a little more technically accurate: it appears that the site settled the case voluntarily with the plaintiffs. When you have a class action that has certain parameters, the judge overseeing the case has to approve the settlement for fairness. This is because the plaintiffs are representing a broader class of people who aren't really being consulted on the settlement and may not even know it's happening, but whose rights to sue in their own behalf will be waived in the settlement. So the court will issue a fairness opinion (usually, but not always, a rubber-stamp of the decision). It's not an endorsement of any particular position on the merits of the underlying case, but rather a review of whether the parties appear to have vigorously pursued their own interests to attain a reasonable settlement.
posted by praemunire at 8:47 AM on July 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 8:47 AM on July 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
Goddamnit, I'll just do this in Python.
SnakePeopleDate is for Millenials.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:48 AM on July 5, 2016 [19 favorites]
SnakePeopleDate is for Millenials.
posted by Going To Maine at 8:48 AM on July 5, 2016 [19 favorites]
So is Christian Mingle Kris Kingle's cousin or something?
posted by fallingbadgers at 8:57 AM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by fallingbadgers at 8:57 AM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Vigorously Pursue Your Interests — Attain a Reasonable Settlement!
posted by maxwelton at 8:59 AM on July 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
(OMG, would love to have a client with a beautifully balanced tagline — look at that cutie, naturally centered at the dash. +++ Would snark again. )
posted by maxwelton at 9:05 AM on July 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by maxwelton at 9:05 AM on July 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
We welcome all users, whether straight or gay. However, harassing members with a different sexual preference from your own is a violation of our terms of use.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:23 AM on July 5
That is an odd use of "however," as if the natural implication of having both gay and straight users was "Welcome to the Sexual Harassment Thunderdome!"
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:14 AM on July 5, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:23 AM on July 5
That is an odd use of "however," as if the natural implication of having both gay and straight users was "Welcome to the Sexual Harassment Thunderdome!"
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 9:14 AM on July 5, 2016 [14 favorites]
Grindr doesn't discriminate - there sure are a lot of straight guys on it.
posted by AFABulous at 9:20 AM on July 5, 2016 [35 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 9:20 AM on July 5, 2016 [35 favorites]
Grindr doesn't discriminate... between the straights and the gays, and it's guys and guys and guys and we keep grinding anyway.
posted by kmz at 9:25 AM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by kmz at 9:25 AM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
I always know I need to go to bed if I glance at Grindr and my first thought is 'goodness, this is terribly sexist, shouldn't there be at least some female representwait...'
posted by aihal at 9:34 AM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by aihal at 9:34 AM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
It remains funny to me that getting a more equal society entails going into “optional” locations (lunch counters at one time, dating websites today) and demanding equal service. I’m not saying it isn’t essential, because in a macro sense it certainly is - especially since these services are less optional than they appear at first glance, but in a micro sense it always comes across as strange.
It's not "funny" or "strange" at all to me. It's the essence of equality and fairness. I think saving challenges for only what is considered "essential" or "life threatening/saving" in some way really reduces what the fight for equality is about.
posted by zutalors! at 9:36 AM on July 5, 2016 [16 favorites]
ChristianMingle is actually something of a target for sociopaths, I found out-- not from my own experience, but from hearing multiple stories about how men who wanted to find gullible, easily controlled women to marry actively choose that site to do so.
So, here's hoping this ruling makes the site less of a playground for abusive sociopaths looking for marks, I guess?
posted by a fiendish thingy at 9:39 AM on July 5, 2016 [11 favorites]
So, here's hoping this ruling makes the site less of a playground for abusive sociopaths looking for marks, I guess?
posted by a fiendish thingy at 9:39 AM on July 5, 2016 [11 favorites]
Gender you prefer to mingle with: Unitarian Universalist
posted by jim in austin at 9:46 AM on July 5, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by jim in austin at 9:46 AM on July 5, 2016 [9 favorites]
I can't believe that the court ordered gays and straights to date, marry, and have sex with each other! THANKS OBAMA!
posted by blue_beetle at 9:50 AM on July 5, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by blue_beetle at 9:50 AM on July 5, 2016 [12 favorites]
One day the nightmare world that Scalia warned us about where the government can force us to eat broccoli will come true. Not only will it be compulsory gay marriage, but the wedding cake will be made out of broccoli.
posted by XMLicious at 9:57 AM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by XMLicious at 9:57 AM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
And the broccoli is also gay. Thanks Monsanto!
posted by No-sword at 10:03 AM on July 5, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by No-sword at 10:03 AM on July 5, 2016 [17 favorites]
We welcome all users, whether straight or gay. However, harassing members with a different sexual preference from your own is a violation of our terms of use.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:23 AM on July 5
That is an odd use of "however," as if the natural implication of having both gay and straight users was "Welcome to the Sexual Harassment Thunderdome!"
I think that's a warning to the trolls that they know are coming.
posted by dances with hamsters at 10:06 AM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by MCMikeNamara at 11:23 AM on July 5
That is an odd use of "however," as if the natural implication of having both gay and straight users was "Welcome to the Sexual Harassment Thunderdome!"
I think that's a warning to the trolls that they know are coming.
posted by dances with hamsters at 10:06 AM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
into a space where we aren’t wanted
some mighty fine use of the passive voice there
posted by Krom Tatman at 10:24 AM on July 5, 2016 [13 favorites]
some mighty fine use of the passive voice there
posted by Krom Tatman at 10:24 AM on July 5, 2016 [13 favorites]
JDate has been asking people their genders and the gender they're searching for since 2005. They've been serving their gay and lesbian members (at least) in a way that ChristianMingle apparently hasn't for over a decade.
--
corb: Isn't the very concept of having separate sites for Christians, Jews, and Mormons also kind of discriminatory under California law though? Most sites just have a "check this box for your religion" and let you sort by it. I would think the religious aspect would also have been struck down.
As has been mentioned, there are non-Jews on JDate. The site does not discriminate by religion and anyone can join and participate. But it's designed to serve a particular community. The questionnaire asks people to classify themselves into one of over a dozen categories, including whether they are Jewish and what flavor of Jew they are, whether a non-Jew is willing to convert or not, or if they aren't sure. It also allows members to search for people who are not Jewish.
From what I understand from friends who use it, the site is mostly filled with Reform and Conservative Ashkenazi Jews. Many of whom probably had if not similar upbringings, at least similar cultural experiences. There are other sites (JWed (formerly Frumster) being one) that serve the Orthodox Jewish community.
Cultural experiences and racial makeup add a deeper level of tribe membership. One can choose to not be religiously Jewish yet still be a Jew racially / culturally. I don't think there's a parallel for Christians? Christian Humanism is still a sect of religious Christianity, for example.
posted by zarq at 10:24 AM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
--
corb: Isn't the very concept of having separate sites for Christians, Jews, and Mormons also kind of discriminatory under California law though? Most sites just have a "check this box for your religion" and let you sort by it. I would think the religious aspect would also have been struck down.
As has been mentioned, there are non-Jews on JDate. The site does not discriminate by religion and anyone can join and participate. But it's designed to serve a particular community. The questionnaire asks people to classify themselves into one of over a dozen categories, including whether they are Jewish and what flavor of Jew they are, whether a non-Jew is willing to convert or not, or if they aren't sure. It also allows members to search for people who are not Jewish.
From what I understand from friends who use it, the site is mostly filled with Reform and Conservative Ashkenazi Jews. Many of whom probably had if not similar upbringings, at least similar cultural experiences. There are other sites (JWed (formerly Frumster) being one) that serve the Orthodox Jewish community.
Cultural experiences and racial makeup add a deeper level of tribe membership. One can choose to not be religiously Jewish yet still be a Jew racially / culturally. I don't think there's a parallel for Christians? Christian Humanism is still a sect of religious Christianity, for example.
posted by zarq at 10:24 AM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
Kind of like how eHarmony rejected my profile when it became apparent I wasn't on board with their subtler-but-just-as-douchey religious undertones.
When interviewed, the CEO of EHarmony became a lot less subtle and a lot more douchy.
posted by el io at 10:39 AM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
When interviewed, the CEO of EHarmony became a lot less subtle and a lot more douchy.
posted by el io at 10:39 AM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
classify themselves into one of over a dozen categories, including whether they are Jewish and what flavor of Jew they are
Oy discrimination right there, limiting it to a bare dozen kinds of Jewish observance? There's at least a couple dozen different kinds of Orthodox between Eastern Park Boulevard and the Williamsburg bridge.
(take a beat, rim shot, I got a million...)
posted by sammyo at 10:50 AM on July 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
Oy discrimination right there, limiting it to a bare dozen kinds of Jewish observance? There's at least a couple dozen different kinds of Orthodox between Eastern Park Boulevard and the Williamsburg bridge.
(take a beat, rim shot, I got a million...)
posted by sammyo at 10:50 AM on July 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
One can choose to not be religiously Jewish yet still be a Jew racially / culturally. I don't think there's a parallel for Christians?
There is a parallel for Christians, it's just that cultural Christians -- European-descended people who celebrate Santa Claus Christmas and Bunny Easter and say "oh my god" and "bless you" and know the Lord's Prayer and the Noah's Ark story even if they don't believe them -- are basically the default human of North America, so they're just perceived as people, rather than people who have a cultural affiliation with a religious tradition.
posted by jacquilynne at 11:01 AM on July 5, 2016 [19 favorites]
There is a parallel for Christians, it's just that cultural Christians -- European-descended people who celebrate Santa Claus Christmas and Bunny Easter and say "oh my god" and "bless you" and know the Lord's Prayer and the Noah's Ark story even if they don't believe them -- are basically the default human of North America, so they're just perceived as people, rather than people who have a cultural affiliation with a religious tradition.
posted by jacquilynne at 11:01 AM on July 5, 2016 [19 favorites]
Ok, so what am I missing here: grindr discriminates against women, but XianMingle now can't discriminate against gay people? How does that work, legally? Serious question.
posted by Melismata at 11:04 AM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Melismata at 11:04 AM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
jacquilynne: There is a parallel for Christians, it's just that cultural Christians -- European-descended people who celebrate Santa Claus Christmas and Bunny Easter and say "oh my god" and "bless you" and know the Lord's Prayer and the Noah's Ark story even if they don't believe them -- are basically the default human of North America, so they're just perceived as people, rather than people who have a cultural affiliation with a religious tradition.
Being religiously affiliated is not the same as being secularly Jewish.
89% of US adults believe in G-d.
77% of US adults are religiously affiliated.
50% of US adults attend services monthly.
56% of US adults pray every day.
It's on a downward trend, but no, secular humans are not the "default human of North America."
posted by zarq at 11:06 AM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Being religiously affiliated is not the same as being secularly Jewish.
89% of US adults believe in G-d.
77% of US adults are religiously affiliated.
50% of US adults attend services monthly.
56% of US adults pray every day.
It's on a downward trend, but no, secular humans are not the "default human of North America."
posted by zarq at 11:06 AM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Going To Maine: I think that this is at least partly because gloating over the victory frames it not as “now gay Christians can have this social hub available to them, thus expanding society’s acknowledgement of them! Civil rights wins!” but as “Ha! We’ve once again forced ourselves into a space where we aren’t wanted, and we don’t want to be here other, but now you can’t make us leave!”
Who's gloating over this? Non-participants and online commentators? I could be wrong, but I don't get such a vibe from a class-action complaint filed in 2013 where the complainants were awarded $9,000 apiece (but the $450,000 for legal costs could be incentive enough for law office to take this on without a larger vested interest). And as for barging into places where they aren't wanted, that seems like even more of a stretch for me.
Going back to your reference of lunch counter sit-ins, these are people who just want to be served what the facility is offering. At diners, people wanted to be served the same food everyone else was getting, while on religiously focused dating sites, people want to date like-minded people. Saying "no" to someone because of their appearance or sexual preference is an artificial limitation imposed by personal bias. The sit-ins weren't because people wanted vegan options at a burger joint, they just wanted burgers like everyone else. And let people select identify their own gender and specify the gender(s) they are also seeking to date.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:09 AM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
Who's gloating over this? Non-participants and online commentators? I could be wrong, but I don't get such a vibe from a class-action complaint filed in 2013 where the complainants were awarded $9,000 apiece (but the $450,000 for legal costs could be incentive enough for law office to take this on without a larger vested interest). And as for barging into places where they aren't wanted, that seems like even more of a stretch for me.
Going back to your reference of lunch counter sit-ins, these are people who just want to be served what the facility is offering. At diners, people wanted to be served the same food everyone else was getting, while on religiously focused dating sites, people want to date like-minded people. Saying "no" to someone because of their appearance or sexual preference is an artificial limitation imposed by personal bias. The sit-ins weren't because people wanted vegan options at a burger joint, they just wanted burgers like everyone else. And let people select identify their own gender and specify the gender(s) they are also seeking to date.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:09 AM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
And the broccoli is also gay. Thanks Monsanto!
What did you think the G in GMO stands for? Genetically?
posted by dances with hamsters at 11:12 AM on July 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
What did you think the G in GMO stands for? Genetically?
posted by dances with hamsters at 11:12 AM on July 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
Grindr-Modified Organisms
posted by beerperson at 11:15 AM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by beerperson at 11:15 AM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
That's actually a question that interests me too, Melismata. I know that I instinctively feel like there's a difference between Grindr not serving women and ChristianMingle not serving gay people, but I can't pin it down intellectually. If someone here could outline that difference from a theoretical perspective I would be genuinely grateful.
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:15 AM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 11:15 AM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's on a downward trend, but no, secular humans are not the "default human of North America."
I think the point is that there is a secular Christianity, it's just not acknowledged as such. Christmas really has become a secular holiday, and there are all sorts of similar things we do that were basically Christian but have become secularized, so much so that the Christian origin has been lost, like all the health ideas we pursue that basically come from places like the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
But you're right that secular Judaism is a pretty unique animal, a product of the particular Jewish cultural history that allows Jews to be Jewish but also not to be religious, which isn't something you often find in religions, where your participation in the religion is what identifies you as a member of the religion.
posted by maxsparber at 11:18 AM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
I think the point is that there is a secular Christianity, it's just not acknowledged as such. Christmas really has become a secular holiday, and there are all sorts of similar things we do that were basically Christian but have become secularized, so much so that the Christian origin has been lost, like all the health ideas we pursue that basically come from places like the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
But you're right that secular Judaism is a pretty unique animal, a product of the particular Jewish cultural history that allows Jews to be Jewish but also not to be religious, which isn't something you often find in religions, where your participation in the religion is what identifies you as a member of the religion.
posted by maxsparber at 11:18 AM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
I may be projecting from Canada, where church attendance and active religious participation are lower than in the US, but my point of default human isn't really percentages but cultural fit. There are people who are not actively religious who still come from a Christian cultural background, but they don't really self-identify as such, because their cultural traditions are still in the mainstream.
posted by jacquilynne at 11:20 AM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by jacquilynne at 11:20 AM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Genetically Modified Organism Designed Only for Kissing
posted by Krom Tatman at 11:21 AM on July 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Krom Tatman at 11:21 AM on July 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
I know that I instinctively feel like there's a difference between Grindr not serving women and ChristianMingle not serving gay people
Some discrimination in who individuals choose to date seems inoffensive. It's ok not to want to date ladies or gents, and it's ok to want to date someone who shares your religion or lack thereof. However, it seems unacceptable to make a service that's purportedly for all Christians then quietly ban LGBT people, just as it would be wrong to open a site purportedly for all gay men but then quietly ban Christians.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 11:29 AM on July 5, 2016 [17 favorites]
Some discrimination in who individuals choose to date seems inoffensive. It's ok not to want to date ladies or gents, and it's ok to want to date someone who shares your religion or lack thereof. However, it seems unacceptable to make a service that's purportedly for all Christians then quietly ban LGBT people, just as it would be wrong to open a site purportedly for all gay men but then quietly ban Christians.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 11:29 AM on July 5, 2016 [17 favorites]
I know that I instinctively feel like there's a difference between Grindr not serving women and ChristianMingle not serving gay people
Because Christians can be gay people and vice versa? It's a site ostensibly for Christians who want to date other Christians. Which means also gay Christians.
Whereas Grindr is a site for dudes that want to get with other dudes. On preview, yes, where Grindr would get in trouble is if they somehow decided that "Christian dudes" were not a welcome subset of "dudes that want to get with other dudes."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:35 AM on July 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
Because Christians can be gay people and vice versa? It's a site ostensibly for Christians who want to date other Christians. Which means also gay Christians.
Whereas Grindr is a site for dudes that want to get with other dudes. On preview, yes, where Grindr would get in trouble is if they somehow decided that "Christian dudes" were not a welcome subset of "dudes that want to get with other dudes."
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 11:35 AM on July 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
I'm an atheist(ish), but I was brought up in a religious family. I celebrate Christmas and Easter (to a lesser extent) as family holidays. I go to church sometimes for the music. When I look at Western religious art, I see a tradition I recognize as mine. People like me who are secular-by-belief, Christian-by-culture, just merge right into the broader Christian culture in the U.S.; we're not awfully visible until we're refusing to be sworn in "so help me God" at our new jobs or whatever.
posted by praemunire at 11:38 AM on July 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 11:38 AM on July 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
“Ha! We’ve once again forced ourselves into a space where we aren’t wanted, and we don’t want to be here other, but now you can’t make us leave!”
You seem to be saying that there aren't actually gay Christians who legitimately wanted to use a Christian dating site to find other gay Christians. I think you are mistaken.
posted by straight at 11:38 AM on July 5, 2016 [14 favorites]
You seem to be saying that there aren't actually gay Christians who legitimately wanted to use a Christian dating site to find other gay Christians. I think you are mistaken.
posted by straight at 11:38 AM on July 5, 2016 [14 favorites]
Grindr doesn't discriminate against women. You are not asked your gender when you sign up. Presumably you wouldn't get many messages, or you'd be assumed to be transgender, but there is no barrier to signing up.
posted by AFABulous at 11:55 AM on July 5, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 11:55 AM on July 5, 2016 [10 favorites]
This "optional vs. not optional" distinction people in this thread are making is mystifying. Oh wait, ah, yes, there's that famous test articulated by the Supreme Court: you can only bring a discrimination suit if it's about literal requirements to survive from the lowest rung of Maslow's Hierarchy.
posted by naju at 11:59 AM on July 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by naju at 11:59 AM on July 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
I know that I instinctively feel like there's a difference between Grindr not serving women and ChristianMingle not serving gay people, but I can't pin it down intellectually.
Churches can legally exclude gay people, because there is a religious exemption (same with Salvation Army - don't give your money to them). Presumably ChristianMingle is a for-profit organization. But as stated above, this isn't the court saying "you can't discriminate," it's the court saying "you must pay the settlement you agreed to." I'd imagine the sites are changing their TOS so as not to be faced with more lawsuits.
And as I mentioned, Grindr doesn't exclude women, just like gay (male) bars don't exclude women. Women (mostly) choose not to go. I doubt they would legally be able to.
posted by AFABulous at 12:03 PM on July 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
Churches can legally exclude gay people, because there is a religious exemption (same with Salvation Army - don't give your money to them). Presumably ChristianMingle is a for-profit organization. But as stated above, this isn't the court saying "you can't discriminate," it's the court saying "you must pay the settlement you agreed to." I'd imagine the sites are changing their TOS so as not to be faced with more lawsuits.
And as I mentioned, Grindr doesn't exclude women, just like gay (male) bars don't exclude women. Women (mostly) choose not to go. I doubt they would legally be able to.
posted by AFABulous at 12:03 PM on July 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
Mod note: Several comments deleted. Comparison to lunch counter sit-ins is not helpful here.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:49 PM on July 5, 2016
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 12:49 PM on July 5, 2016
maxsparber: I think the point is that there is a secular Christianity, it's just not acknowledged as such. Christmas really has become a secular holiday, and there are all sorts of similar things we do that were basically Christian but have become secularized, so much so that the Christian origin has been lost, like all the health ideas we pursue that basically come from places like the Seventh-day Adventist Church.
I understand jacquilynne's and praemunir's explanations. Thank you both!
But maxsparber, I don't think the Christian origins of Christmas have been lost? I mean, everyone knows the story. The general population has not rejected its religious roots. Millions of people celebrate it as a Christian holiday and the birthday of their messiah. The same holds true for Easter. Just because kids get chocolate eggs from the Easter Bunny, that doesn't mean Easter is not a religious Christian holiday. Neither are secularized per se, in the sense that they are still religiously significant to a huge portion of the US population.
If being secular is defined as a rejection of religion, then going through the motions isn't it. Is it?
posted by zarq at 12:51 PM on July 5, 2016
I understand jacquilynne's and praemunir's explanations. Thank you both!
But maxsparber, I don't think the Christian origins of Christmas have been lost? I mean, everyone knows the story. The general population has not rejected its religious roots. Millions of people celebrate it as a Christian holiday and the birthday of their messiah. The same holds true for Easter. Just because kids get chocolate eggs from the Easter Bunny, that doesn't mean Easter is not a religious Christian holiday. Neither are secularized per se, in the sense that they are still religiously significant to a huge portion of the US population.
If being secular is defined as a rejection of religion, then going through the motions isn't it. Is it?
posted by zarq at 12:51 PM on July 5, 2016
I just read the Salvation Army wiki--youch!! (I am shocked, shocked at the laziness of the NYC government...)
Ok, so there's a religious exemption. Then why isn't ChristianMingle claiming it?
And yes, Grindr can say that it does not discriminate against women. But at the same time it can say "but yeah, women are probably not going to be happy here." Why can't CM do the same thing for gay people?
posted by Melismata at 12:55 PM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ok, so there's a religious exemption. Then why isn't ChristianMingle claiming it?
And yes, Grindr can say that it does not discriminate against women. But at the same time it can say "but yeah, women are probably not going to be happy here." Why can't CM do the same thing for gay people?
posted by Melismata at 12:55 PM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ok, so there's a religious exemption. Then why isn't ChristianMingle claiming it?
Because they're a business and not a non-profit organization.
posted by zarq at 12:57 PM on July 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
Because they're a business and not a non-profit organization.
posted by zarq at 12:57 PM on July 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
Why can't CM do the same thing for gay people?
California law prohibits businesses from refusing to serve customers based on their religion, sexual orientation or gender identity.
Also, there are plenty of gay Christians. There are plenty of Christian churches that support gay people dating, falling in love, marrying and having children.
posted by zarq at 12:59 PM on July 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
California law prohibits businesses from refusing to serve customers based on their religion, sexual orientation or gender identity.
Also, there are plenty of gay Christians. There are plenty of Christian churches that support gay people dating, falling in love, marrying and having children.
posted by zarq at 12:59 PM on July 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
But maxsparber, I don't think the Christian origins of Christmas have been lost?
Not to people who celebrate it as a religious holiday, no. But there are an awful lot of Americans who get Christmas trees, open presents, leave cookies for Santa, eat Christmas dinner, watch It's a Wonderful Life, and do a million other Christmas things without Jesus or his birth every coming up.
For them, it's a secular holiday, as is Halloween, which was also a Christian holiday, but I think is almost completely secularized at the moment.
posted by maxsparber at 12:59 PM on July 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
Not to people who celebrate it as a religious holiday, no. But there are an awful lot of Americans who get Christmas trees, open presents, leave cookies for Santa, eat Christmas dinner, watch It's a Wonderful Life, and do a million other Christmas things without Jesus or his birth every coming up.
For them, it's a secular holiday, as is Halloween, which was also a Christian holiday, but I think is almost completely secularized at the moment.
posted by maxsparber at 12:59 PM on July 5, 2016 [8 favorites]
I would guess the parent company of ChristianMingle is all too happy to get revenue from gays who would like to use the site. They probably only excluded them out of neglect and ignorance or because they thought some of the Christian customers might be scared away by seeing options for men-seeking-men or women-seeking-women.
If it was the latter, they're probably glad to be able to let gays use the site and blame it on the government if any of their Christian clients don't like it.
posted by straight at 1:02 PM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
If it was the latter, they're probably glad to be able to let gays use the site and blame it on the government if any of their Christian clients don't like it.
posted by straight at 1:02 PM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
JDate isn't as vital now that we have Partner.religionQuerySelector() but you still see it a lot for backward compatibility. (Yeah I'm sorry are we done with this joke?)
posted by atoxyl at 1:03 PM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 1:03 PM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
(It's also possible there are/were some homophobic people somewhere in the ChristianMingle management even though some of their other sites welcome gay customers.)
posted by straight at 1:09 PM on July 5, 2016
posted by straight at 1:09 PM on July 5, 2016
I'm a farmesonly type of gal
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 1:33 PM on July 5, 2016
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 1:33 PM on July 5, 2016
Jdate and Christian Mingle share technical staff and I would bet use the same or substantially similar codebases. It's hard to imagine that this was an accidental oversight when Jdate has supported same-sex matches for years.
posted by Krom Tatman at 2:00 PM on July 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Krom Tatman at 2:00 PM on July 5, 2016 [4 favorites]
The company or corporation isn't actively excluding women.
Does the site have "seeking" terms that aren't male-specific? If so (and I don't know either way), then it would seem to be excluding women and straight women based on the logic of this case.
posted by jpe at 2:15 PM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
Does the site have "seeking" terms that aren't male-specific? If so (and I don't know either way), then it would seem to be excluding women and straight women based on the logic of this case.
posted by jpe at 2:15 PM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
if people have technical questions about how grindr works it seems like you could google or download the app and find those answers.
posted by nadawi at 2:25 PM on July 5, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 2:25 PM on July 5, 2016 [9 favorites]
In the Google Play Store, the first line describing Grindr says it is "exclusively for gay, bi and curious men."
Doesn't make it analogous to a straight-only ChristianMingle, but the idea that it's open to women seems erroneous to me.
posted by hungrytiger at 2:36 PM on July 5, 2016
Doesn't make it analogous to a straight-only ChristianMingle, but the idea that it's open to women seems erroneous to me.
posted by hungrytiger at 2:36 PM on July 5, 2016
Christian Mingle bills itself as "the largest and fastest growing online community for single Christians" on its front page. That seems pretty similar to Grindr describing itself as "The world’s leading mobile social network app exclusively for gay, bi and curious men". Advertising and marketing copy directed at a specific group is not disallowed by the law, because that has nothing to do with barring service.
posted by Krom Tatman at 2:45 PM on July 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Krom Tatman at 2:45 PM on July 5, 2016 [6 favorites]
Women can sign up for and use Grindr. Whether they get anything out of an app whose community uses it for M-M hookups is entirely up to them.
* The Girls who use Grindr.
* Straight People Are Going on Grindr to Make Gay Best Friends
posted by zarq at 2:45 PM on July 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
* The Girls who use Grindr.
* Straight People Are Going on Grindr to Make Gay Best Friends
posted by zarq at 2:45 PM on July 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
OK, so Grindr allows women, cool. But even before I knew that, I knew I felt differently about women being (hypothetically, as it turns out) excluded from Grindr than I do about gay people being excluded from ChristianMingle. And I thought I was on board with the idea that the key difference is that Grindr bills itself as "for men" whereas ChristianMingle bills itself as "for Christians," which ought to include gay Christians. But then I thought, "Well, so what if they had billed themselves as being 'for straight Christians?'" and I know I wouldn't be cool with them excluding gay people under those circumstances.
I can't square it as a punch-up/punch-down thing either, due to intersectionality issues: gay people are an oppressed class, but then so are women. And that's before we even get into the larger issue of this being framed within a binary/exclusive conception of gender and sexuality, which as we all ought to know by now is woefully inadequate.
So I guess what I'm saying is that on further reflection I think the best strategy to employ is the one that most of these specialty dating services (including Grindr, but not including Christian Mingle until this settlement) actually employ, which is to bill yourself as specializing in a particular group but to allow pretty much anyone to join if they want to do so for whatever reason. That is to say, after reading and thinking about this, I wouldn't actually be fine with Grindr excluding women, though I'm fine with them orienting their services toward gay men as long as they're clear that that's the group they're targeting and as long as they target everybody within that group instead of just a subset. (e.g. They should make sure that they're not focusing on gay white men to the detriment of gay men of color.)
Which is all just a longwinded way of saying that I learned a little bit today. Thanks for helping me learn, MetaFilter!
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:12 PM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
I can't square it as a punch-up/punch-down thing either, due to intersectionality issues: gay people are an oppressed class, but then so are women. And that's before we even get into the larger issue of this being framed within a binary/exclusive conception of gender and sexuality, which as we all ought to know by now is woefully inadequate.
So I guess what I'm saying is that on further reflection I think the best strategy to employ is the one that most of these specialty dating services (including Grindr, but not including Christian Mingle until this settlement) actually employ, which is to bill yourself as specializing in a particular group but to allow pretty much anyone to join if they want to do so for whatever reason. That is to say, after reading and thinking about this, I wouldn't actually be fine with Grindr excluding women, though I'm fine with them orienting their services toward gay men as long as they're clear that that's the group they're targeting and as long as they target everybody within that group instead of just a subset. (e.g. They should make sure that they're not focusing on gay white men to the detriment of gay men of color.)
Which is all just a longwinded way of saying that I learned a little bit today. Thanks for helping me learn, MetaFilter!
posted by Anticipation Of A New Lover's Arrival, The at 3:12 PM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]
But, interestingly enough, the audience...
Grindr taught me that overt racism is totally socially acceptable so long as it's followed by "just my preference, sorry!"
posted by PMdixon at 4:10 PM on July 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
Grindr taught me that overt racism is totally socially acceptable so long as it's followed by "just my preference, sorry!"
posted by PMdixon at 4:10 PM on July 5, 2016 [7 favorites]
qcubed: "Here is the flow for Grindr"
Thanks for posting that comment. It saved me from a bad sitcom setup where I unsuccessfully try to explain to my wife my purely platonic reason for installing Grindr on my phone.
posted by double block and bleed at 5:15 PM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
Thanks for posting that comment. It saved me from a bad sitcom setup where I unsuccessfully try to explain to my wife my purely platonic reason for installing Grindr on my phone.
posted by double block and bleed at 5:15 PM on July 5, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm with you, qcubed. It's pretty gross to have these comments about how people totes would never download a "gay app" but could someone explain please how they work? You know, so people can avoid sitcom plots with their wives.
I don't even know why Grindr had to be involved here. From everything I've heard they're a great company with a very inclusive company culture. They seem to attract some of the best and brightest in the field, of all gender identities.
posted by zutalors! at 6:10 PM on July 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
I don't even know why Grindr had to be involved here. From everything I've heard they're a great company with a very inclusive company culture. They seem to attract some of the best and brightest in the field, of all gender identities.
posted by zutalors! at 6:10 PM on July 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
Sorry for bringing up Grindr, y'all! Let's talk about Scruff instead.
JUST KIDDING, LETS NOT
posted by AFABulous at 6:36 PM on July 5, 2016
JUST KIDDING, LETS NOT
posted by AFABulous at 6:36 PM on July 5, 2016
Spark will pay the complainants $9,000 apiece and $450,000 for their legal costsBy my estimation that makes this story about 2% related to LGBT equality and 98% about parasitic rent-seeking lawyers. Almost half a million bucks? You've got to be kidding me.
posted by L.P. Hatecraft at 7:21 PM on July 5, 2016 [1 favorite]
For ChristianMingle, previously: Copy text did not mention blocking Queer individuals from signing up. Actual user flow prevented Queer individuals from using it. So you couldn't really have Queer people on that platform.
Wait, what? The website can reliably determine sexual orientation?
I don't know, chick-o-filet doesn't actually prevent gay people from eating their food... But they have certainly sent the signals of what their beliefs are...
And even though they now allow gay people to use ChristianMingle, I really don't think any should (just as i don't think anyone should at chick-o-filet).
I'd be willing to bet that Stormfront allows PoC, but I don't really think they (or anyone else) should join, unless they are doing research (SPLC style).
I think I'm okay with allowing bigots a place to congregate - it helps keep them out of the places I want to be at.
posted by el io at 9:16 PM on July 5, 2016
Wait, what? The website can reliably determine sexual orientation?
I don't know, chick-o-filet doesn't actually prevent gay people from eating their food... But they have certainly sent the signals of what their beliefs are...
And even though they now allow gay people to use ChristianMingle, I really don't think any should (just as i don't think anyone should at chick-o-filet).
I'd be willing to bet that Stormfront allows PoC, but I don't really think they (or anyone else) should join, unless they are doing research (SPLC style).
I think I'm okay with allowing bigots a place to congregate - it helps keep them out of the places I want to be at.
posted by el io at 9:16 PM on July 5, 2016
the word "mingle" is stupid and anyone using it needs to get their head checked
posted by iffthen at 12:53 AM on July 6, 2016
posted by iffthen at 12:53 AM on July 6, 2016
Many of the most devout Christians I know are gay.
posted by persona au gratin at 2:04 AM on July 6, 2016
posted by persona au gratin at 2:04 AM on July 6, 2016
What does "Side-A Gay" mean?
"Side A" and "Side B" describe two different tendencies among gay Christians.
Side A support marriage equality and believe that married gay sex is just as morally acceptable as married straight sex. (They often still object to extramarital sex of all kinds.)
Side B believe that all gay sex is immoral, and that as gay Christians they should aspire to celibacy.
There are more out gay Christians than you'd think on Side B, but they tend to be pretty isolated from secular/mainstream gay culture. Side A gay Christians tend to fit in much better with the secular gay world.
posted by nebulawindphone at 6:22 AM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
"Side A" and "Side B" describe two different tendencies among gay Christians.
Side A support marriage equality and believe that married gay sex is just as morally acceptable as married straight sex. (They often still object to extramarital sex of all kinds.)
Side B believe that all gay sex is immoral, and that as gay Christians they should aspire to celibacy.
There are more out gay Christians than you'd think on Side B, but they tend to be pretty isolated from secular/mainstream gay culture. Side A gay Christians tend to fit in much better with the secular gay world.
posted by nebulawindphone at 6:22 AM on July 6, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'm almost 50, been openly gay for 30 years, and never heard the terms before. Thank you.
posted by yesster at 6:27 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by yesster at 6:27 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
By my estimation that makes this story about 2% related to LGBT equality and 98% about parasitic rent-seeking lawyers. Almost half a million bucks? You've got to be kidding me.
This is an ignorant comment. It costs a lot of money to mount a lawsuit against a rich and powerful company. By their nature, damages in class action lawsuit tend to be small enough that the investment in money, let alone time and stress, would make no sense for any individual plaintiff. Yet harms can be real and even offensive and discriminatory. Any jurisdiction that isn't generously funding robust regulatory agencies to address these issues (basically all of them, including much less stingy ones than the USA) depends on class action suits to address these issues. The large payouts to lawyers incentive lawyers to risk offering their services to individuals who cannot pay, and it's a financial burden that arguably makes sense to place on wrongdoers (as an alternative to on all corporations to fund the regulatory agencies). Generally settlements should cover damages, covert legal costs, covert risks, and place a meaningful disincentive on companies from acting badly.
posted by Salamandrous at 6:29 AM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is an ignorant comment. It costs a lot of money to mount a lawsuit against a rich and powerful company. By their nature, damages in class action lawsuit tend to be small enough that the investment in money, let alone time and stress, would make no sense for any individual plaintiff. Yet harms can be real and even offensive and discriminatory. Any jurisdiction that isn't generously funding robust regulatory agencies to address these issues (basically all of them, including much less stingy ones than the USA) depends on class action suits to address these issues. The large payouts to lawyers incentive lawyers to risk offering their services to individuals who cannot pay, and it's a financial burden that arguably makes sense to place on wrongdoers (as an alternative to on all corporations to fund the regulatory agencies). Generally settlements should cover damages, covert legal costs, covert risks, and place a meaningful disincentive on companies from acting badly.
posted by Salamandrous at 6:29 AM on July 6, 2016 [4 favorites]
I'm almost 50, been openly gay for 30 years, and never heard the terms before. Thank you.
Yeah, I've only encountered them on specifically Christian blogs, and only fairly recently.
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:51 AM on July 6, 2016
Yeah, I've only encountered them on specifically Christian blogs, and only fairly recently.
posted by nebulawindphone at 7:51 AM on July 6, 2016
i've known quite a few gay christian teens who have worked for chic-fil-a.
posted by nadawi at 8:41 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by nadawi at 8:41 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Chick-fil-A: We Put The Jack Chick In Chicken"
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:03 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:03 AM on July 6, 2016 [1 favorite]
Salamandrous:
posted by L.P. Hatecraft at 9:52 PM on July 6, 2016
This is an ignorant comment etcYes, it's reasonable for lawyer's fees to be part of a settlement and the plaintiffs should not have to bear all the risk and cost. The issue is the magnitude of the fees compared to the settlement paid to the plaintiff (in this case 50 times the size). The cost to businesses of litigation in the USA is over 2 and a half times that of Eurozone countries as a percentage of GDP. In comparison to some countries it's more like 4 times. These "big and powerful" companies pass on the costs to their workers and customers. Are corporations in the USA 2 and a half times more socially responsible than in Europe? So why pay so much? One of the factors strongly correlated with high litigation costs in a society (besides features of the legal system) is simply the number of lawyers per capita. That's what you're paying for: more lawyers.
posted by L.P. Hatecraft at 9:52 PM on July 6, 2016
People are talking about discrimination in the name of religion, and you're pulling out tired right-wing talking points about tort reform?
posted by zombieflanders at 4:23 AM on July 7, 2016
posted by zombieflanders at 4:23 AM on July 7, 2016
My only observation from this back and forth discussion is that issue here is like porn, "you know it when you see it" but it's really hard to find a clear unambiguous description that all parties will agree upon.
posted by sammyo at 6:08 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by sammyo at 6:08 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
The cost to businesses of litigation in the USA is over 2 and a half times that of Eurozone countries as a percentage of GDP.
But in the EU all companies, innocent and guilty together, pay much higher costs for more stringent regulation and oversight.
posted by straight at 9:25 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
But in the EU all companies, innocent and guilty together, pay much higher costs for more stringent regulation and oversight.
posted by straight at 9:25 AM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
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posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:27 AM on July 5, 2016 [2 favorites]