[W]e live in an age when women are supposed to perform pregnancy.
July 13, 2016 9:05 AM Subscribe
In a recent interview with Financial Times, Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie nonchalantly mentioned her new child. She hadn't made it public (or even told all of her friends) because she refuses to "perform pregnancy."
Related: Jennifer Aniston criticizes tabloid journalism's "perpetuation of this notion that women are somehow incomplete, unsuccessful, or unhappy if they’re not married with children."
Related: Jennifer Aniston criticizes tabloid journalism's "perpetuation of this notion that women are somehow incomplete, unsuccessful, or unhappy if they’re not married with children."
Wait, no, scratch that, can't get to the interview at all :(
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:09 AM on July 13, 2016
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:09 AM on July 13, 2016
On the Jennifer Aniston story (which I thought about posting): it is just nuts how women, especially celebrity women, are scrutinized for any hints of pregnancy. It's disturbing af.
To make it personal, it's also nuts how many strangers/co-workers give me the side-eye as a nearly 40-year-old woman who privately made the decision to not have kids. That is not cocktail small talk, jeez.
posted by Kitteh at 9:10 AM on July 13, 2016 [16 favorites]
To make it personal, it's also nuts how many strangers/co-workers give me the side-eye as a nearly 40-year-old woman who privately made the decision to not have kids. That is not cocktail small talk, jeez.
posted by Kitteh at 9:10 AM on July 13, 2016 [16 favorites]
Maybe this link works?
If not google "Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie financial times" and you should be able to get the interview by clicking through.
posted by GuyZero at 9:23 AM on July 13, 2016
If not google "Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie financial times" and you should be able to get the interview by clicking through.
posted by GuyZero at 9:23 AM on July 13, 2016
If not google "Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie financial times" and you should be able to get the interview by clicking through.
Yes, sorry about that - I found the link through google not realizing that FT is subscription only.
posted by slmorri at 9:24 AM on July 13, 2016
Yes, sorry about that - I found the link through google not realizing that FT is subscription only.
posted by slmorri at 9:24 AM on July 13, 2016
I can't read the Adichie interview on that link, but I read it elsewhere yesterday and it struck a chord with me. "Performing pregnancy" is very much expected.
My husband and I announced my pregnancy on Facebook when I was 3 months pregnant, after telling a few close family and friends, and then never mentioned it again on social media. A few months later, friends online who we don't see in real life started quietly asking me if everything was okay, and then a female acquaintance on Facebook privately asked me if I'd miscarried. I was completely taken aback. Apparently because I hadn't been sharing every detail of my pregnancy and posting a stream of pregnancy pictures online, everyone assumed something was wrong. I was not "performing pregnancy" correctly. One more thing to add to the anxiety of impending motherhood while determined to continue on my career path -- whether or not I was "performing pregnancy" correctly.
I'd like to say I got over it, but I didn't. And now I'm not performing parenthood correctly either, and I'm acutely aware of that as well.
posted by erst at 9:25 AM on July 13, 2016 [30 favorites]
My husband and I announced my pregnancy on Facebook when I was 3 months pregnant, after telling a few close family and friends, and then never mentioned it again on social media. A few months later, friends online who we don't see in real life started quietly asking me if everything was okay, and then a female acquaintance on Facebook privately asked me if I'd miscarried. I was completely taken aback. Apparently because I hadn't been sharing every detail of my pregnancy and posting a stream of pregnancy pictures online, everyone assumed something was wrong. I was not "performing pregnancy" correctly. One more thing to add to the anxiety of impending motherhood while determined to continue on my career path -- whether or not I was "performing pregnancy" correctly.
I'd like to say I got over it, but I didn't. And now I'm not performing parenthood correctly either, and I'm acutely aware of that as well.
posted by erst at 9:25 AM on July 13, 2016 [30 favorites]
Yeah, and when you're pregnant, your body becomes communal property. One of the most horrific, traumatizing experiences in my life was simply walking around with my pregnant wife for a couple of days after we got the bad news about the first child we had really expected to make it to term who had developed with such severe anencephaly she had no skull or brain, only eye socket orbits, wondering when the next casual stranger was going to want to pat my wife on the belly and ask when she was due with a big, horribly out of place grin. We need more privacy and space both around pregnancy and parenting, in general. But it's tough because everybody wants and expects you to give them updates and pics on social media. And in practice, it's hard to keep up with friends and family otherwise, people tend to be so widely geographically distributed now.
posted by saulgoodman at 9:27 AM on July 13, 2016 [33 favorites]
posted by saulgoodman at 9:27 AM on July 13, 2016 [33 favorites]
Obviously, as bad as it was for me, imagine how she felt!
posted by saulgoodman at 9:28 AM on July 13, 2016 [17 favorites]
posted by saulgoodman at 9:28 AM on July 13, 2016 [17 favorites]
Multiple reads of the emotional labor thread and still the concept of performing pregnancy is a "Huh" moment. Sheesh.
That said, my wife and I decided a long time ago we weren't having kids, and it's AMAZING how many people aggressively push the concept that she's failed in her primary mission in life.
*pfft*
posted by Mooski at 9:36 AM on July 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
That said, my wife and I decided a long time ago we weren't having kids, and it's AMAZING how many people aggressively push the concept that she's failed in her primary mission in life.
*pfft*
posted by Mooski at 9:36 AM on July 13, 2016 [13 favorites]
and it's AMAZING how many people aggressively push the concept that she's failed in her primary mission in life.
the overwhelming message for all women, no matter what our choices, is 'you're doing it wrong.'
posted by nadawi at 9:46 AM on July 13, 2016 [74 favorites]
the overwhelming message for all women, no matter what our choices, is 'you're doing it wrong.'
posted by nadawi at 9:46 AM on July 13, 2016 [74 favorites]
Yeah, I'm almost 30 and I frequently get the "so when are you having kids" question. And when I respond "never," I get some condescending comment about how "accidents happen," because apparently I'm also supposed to act like abortions don't exist.
posted by a strong female character at 9:49 AM on July 13, 2016 [64 favorites]
posted by a strong female character at 9:49 AM on July 13, 2016 [64 favorites]
On Point recently devoted an hour to a study that shows that people with children in the US are significantly less happy with their lives than those without children.
Ultimately it should be up to the people involved, and not their friends or acquaintances or random strangers at the mall or society at large to determine whether or not a couple or an individual is going to have children. Any other involvement by anyone other than the couple or the individual involved is intrusive and should be treated as utter rudeness.
posted by hippybear at 9:50 AM on July 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
Ultimately it should be up to the people involved, and not their friends or acquaintances or random strangers at the mall or society at large to determine whether or not a couple or an individual is going to have children. Any other involvement by anyone other than the couple or the individual involved is intrusive and should be treated as utter rudeness.
posted by hippybear at 9:50 AM on July 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
We need more privacy and space both around pregnancy and parenting, in general.
Except this goes against the idea that "it takes a village" to raise a child. Sure, people should be able to have all the privacy they want, specially in tough times like the one saulgoodman mentions (I had a similar experience with my own pregnancy as well, so I'm not just saying), but I think somewhere in our human hard wiring there is a need to help and share and ask about the things surrounding pregnancy and parenting.
Being a third-time mom, I read a lot of things related to breastfeeding and parenting and such, and I realize that before the internet, before books even, moms had to have a support system of sisters and aunts and maybe older kids too, cause it's just damn hard to be pregnant or be a parent when it's just you and your partner. And "doing" miscarriage or the loss of a child privately is hell on earth. We need people.
posted by CrazyLemonade at 9:54 AM on July 13, 2016 [21 favorites]
Except this goes against the idea that "it takes a village" to raise a child. Sure, people should be able to have all the privacy they want, specially in tough times like the one saulgoodman mentions (I had a similar experience with my own pregnancy as well, so I'm not just saying), but I think somewhere in our human hard wiring there is a need to help and share and ask about the things surrounding pregnancy and parenting.
Being a third-time mom, I read a lot of things related to breastfeeding and parenting and such, and I realize that before the internet, before books even, moms had to have a support system of sisters and aunts and maybe older kids too, cause it's just damn hard to be pregnant or be a parent when it's just you and your partner. And "doing" miscarriage or the loss of a child privately is hell on earth. We need people.
posted by CrazyLemonade at 9:54 AM on July 13, 2016 [21 favorites]
women who have kids aren't spared the intrusiveness - 1 kid "when will you give them a sibling! only kids are [blahblahblah]", 2 kids "won't you miss having a baby around the house??", and then somewhere between 3-5 kids "that's too many! i could never! i bet they're on welfare! overpopulation!" and it all just sucks. there is no accepted way to be a woman that spares us the constant commentary on how we should be doing it better.
posted by nadawi at 9:58 AM on July 13, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 9:58 AM on July 13, 2016 [20 favorites]
Except this goes against the idea that "it takes a village" to raise a child.
That notion is mainly just used to intrude on a pregnant family's life. It's not like the village is offering to pay expenses, or split childcare duties.
Personally, I just can't wait until we develop artificial wombs. That way, when people bug a woman about when she's going to have a kid, she can just point to the uterine replicator in her den and say "There he is! Isn't he cute?" Then just go back to doing her regular activities
posted by happyroach at 10:08 AM on July 13, 2016 [21 favorites]
That notion is mainly just used to intrude on a pregnant family's life. It's not like the village is offering to pay expenses, or split childcare duties.
Personally, I just can't wait until we develop artificial wombs. That way, when people bug a woman about when she's going to have a kid, she can just point to the uterine replicator in her den and say "There he is! Isn't he cute?" Then just go back to doing her regular activities
posted by happyroach at 10:08 AM on July 13, 2016 [21 favorites]
...our human hard wiring there is a need to help and share and ask about the things surrounding pregnancy and parenting.
Share your own experiences all you want, but keep the asking to a minimum or wait for invitation before you ask. Mostly this "asking" of women is all take, take, take and very little give in return. People want their own emotional reassurance by pulling information or giving unsolicited advice to women, even it if's the expense of women's own desire for privacy and bodily autonomy.
posted by scantee at 10:14 AM on July 13, 2016 [23 favorites]
Share your own experiences all you want, but keep the asking to a minimum or wait for invitation before you ask. Mostly this "asking" of women is all take, take, take and very little give in return. People want their own emotional reassurance by pulling information or giving unsolicited advice to women, even it if's the expense of women's own desire for privacy and bodily autonomy.
posted by scantee at 10:14 AM on July 13, 2016 [23 favorites]
What I don't get a sense of from the brief mention in the interview: is the point of saying "I won't perform my pregnancy" that she feels that there are certain expected public gestures during pregnancy, birth, motherhood, etc, and that she doesn't want to participate so she's just skipping them? Or is it that those public moments are in themselves inauthentic and performative rather than, for some women, traditions to joyfully take on? Because if it's the latter, that seems pretty unfair to women who actually do want to make a big to-do out of their pregnancy and birth by participating in a bunch of cheesy public celebrations. It's pretty hard to tell, and even if she's not being judgey, there are plenty of people who do believe that, which is a bummer.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:14 AM on July 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:14 AM on July 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
the FT interview is great, but the FT paywall is not porous
posted by JPD at 10:15 AM on July 13, 2016
posted by JPD at 10:15 AM on July 13, 2016
Alright. I'm gonna type it out.
Jennifer Aniston made one million dollars per episode of Friends in the last few years of its run. She may be a comic actor, but please... a lot of that money was for her looks, her skinny, poky, Hollywood good looks with the fashionable haircut.
She's still raking in fame and fortune based at least half on her looks. On the runway. In movies, on TV. Good for her! She deserves it. I'm sure she works hard and is a go-getter who had some hard times, and fought for her salary.
But to suddenly cry out because Hollywood culture, including Paparazzi, gossip mags etc which all have been around for a loooong time is "objectifying" her and other celeb women is real chutzpah.
You think those Friend's $$ would have all just appeared if she hadn't been in every goddamn magazine and celeb TV show throughout the 90s? Does anyone think that her enormous (deserved!) popularity wasn't at least a huge percentage based on her toned figure, fat percentage and stunning looks?
Was there EVER an overweight or even a normal/average weight woman on Friends?
I agree with Aniston in general, but for her to claim that the celebrity culture has finally taken a step too far is completely nauseating.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 10:18 AM on July 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
Jennifer Aniston made one million dollars per episode of Friends in the last few years of its run. She may be a comic actor, but please... a lot of that money was for her looks, her skinny, poky, Hollywood good looks with the fashionable haircut.
She's still raking in fame and fortune based at least half on her looks. On the runway. In movies, on TV. Good for her! She deserves it. I'm sure she works hard and is a go-getter who had some hard times, and fought for her salary.
But to suddenly cry out because Hollywood culture, including Paparazzi, gossip mags etc which all have been around for a loooong time is "objectifying" her and other celeb women is real chutzpah.
You think those Friend's $$ would have all just appeared if she hadn't been in every goddamn magazine and celeb TV show throughout the 90s? Does anyone think that her enormous (deserved!) popularity wasn't at least a huge percentage based on her toned figure, fat percentage and stunning looks?
Was there EVER an overweight or even a normal/average weight woman on Friends?
I agree with Aniston in general, but for her to claim that the celebrity culture has finally taken a step too far is completely nauseating.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 10:18 AM on July 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
i don't think reading any of her other work supports that she's being judgey about how other women decide to express themselves.
posted by nadawi at 10:19 AM on July 13, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 10:19 AM on July 13, 2016 [15 favorites]
Being an attractive woman on a tv show does not mean your body is open to speculation. Being an attractive woman does not mean your body is open to speculation. Being a woman does not mean your body is open to speculation.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 10:21 AM on July 13, 2016 [129 favorites]
posted by everybody had matching towels at 10:21 AM on July 13, 2016 [129 favorites]
There is no winning this game. Women succeed by playing along, by performing femininity to meet other people's standards and to assuage the fragile egos of men. When they push back, which they eventually will because living a life of never-ending performance always ends up with the performer feeling beaten down, they'll be encircled by vultures, both men and women, who scream that they don't have the least bit of sympathy for them because they were the ones that chose to use their femininity to succeed in the first place.
posted by scantee at 10:26 AM on July 13, 2016 [48 favorites]
posted by scantee at 10:26 AM on July 13, 2016 [48 favorites]
there's a huge difference between magazines and shows she sat for willingly and the type of stalking and public focus on her decisions about everything in her personal life, but specifically her relationships with men and whether she's pregnant. if you think her pay rate 15 years ago - as one of 7 people who negotiated together and all received that salary which was waaaaaaaaaaay less than the suits made off it - means that you can just hurl pretty disgusting attacks about her looks and body and be absolved from the misogyny, you are mistaken.
posted by nadawi at 10:28 AM on July 13, 2016 [51 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 10:28 AM on July 13, 2016 [51 favorites]
It's true that Jennifer Aniston is thin and beautiful, what she's saying is pretty basic: every woman should be able to choose what their priorities are without them being commented on by strangers on the street. That she is forty-seven years old and has been dealing for twenty years with people coming up to her in public asking when she is going to have a baby would put anyone over the edge, even somebody who has spent her life in being a celebrity in Los Angeles. There are famous people who obviously cultivate paparazzi attention and she is not one of them. She should be allowed to be beautiful and make a living as an actress without constantly dealing with this bullshit.
posted by something something at 10:34 AM on July 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by something something at 10:34 AM on July 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
Mod note: A few comments removed. Whatever your intentions, jeff-o-matic, your presentation here is landing with wet thud and you need to drop it.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:37 AM on July 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:37 AM on July 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
what she's saying is pretty basic: every woman should be able to choose what their priorities are without them being commented on by strangers on the street
Yes! Exactly this! But of course some dudes are going to use her platform as a woman who has been subjected to it very publicly for literally decades against her, because women cannot win.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 10:37 AM on July 13, 2016 [16 favorites]
Yes! Exactly this! But of course some dudes are going to use her platform as a woman who has been subjected to it very publicly for literally decades against her, because women cannot win.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 10:37 AM on July 13, 2016 [16 favorites]
Oh, man, I hated being pregnant. Although my experience was nothing compared to losing a child. That sounds just horrific, and I'm so sorry that happened.
But I was fairly young (and actually married, but I swelled up so much I couldn't get my ring on), and I looked even younger than I was. I'd actually get yelled at by strangers, and parents would really obviously pull their teenaged daughters aside, pointing and scowling at me while they gave them little lectures.
Every now and again, someone would be friendly with me, which was far preferable, but I would have much, much preferred to just fly under the radar.
And I want to put it on the record that the people who were friendly or even polite to me were never (non-Hispanic) white people. White people were always just the worst. I even stopped going to visit my parents in the suburbs because I would get openly harassed pretty much every time.
posted by ernielundquist at 10:48 AM on July 13, 2016 [11 favorites]
But I was fairly young (and actually married, but I swelled up so much I couldn't get my ring on), and I looked even younger than I was. I'd actually get yelled at by strangers, and parents would really obviously pull their teenaged daughters aside, pointing and scowling at me while they gave them little lectures.
Every now and again, someone would be friendly with me, which was far preferable, but I would have much, much preferred to just fly under the radar.
And I want to put it on the record that the people who were friendly or even polite to me were never (non-Hispanic) white people. White people were always just the worst. I even stopped going to visit my parents in the suburbs because I would get openly harassed pretty much every time.
posted by ernielundquist at 10:48 AM on July 13, 2016 [11 favorites]
On "performing pregnancy" I am kind of torn. On the one hand, there is definitely a pressure to perform pregnancy - to announce it in specific ways, to frame it in specific ways, to have it suddenly be the main thing about you if you are a pregnant woman, rather than just another facet of your existence. When I was pregnant I went through a prolonged freak-out when I hit the point where strangers could tell just by looking at me, because then everyone wanted to talk about it and aaargh. Thanks anyway, random taxi driver, but actually I am not that interested in your thoughts on whether it's a boy or not!
On the other hand, getting through pregnancy with a good proportion of people in your professional and personal lives not knowing about it also involves a degree of performance, albeit much more for some than others. And there's a pressure there too - I have been in several discussions with women one-upping each other on how little they talked about their pregnancies on Facebook, where the ideal seemed to be that the quieter you kept it, the better, and saying anything about pregnancy at all on Facebook before the baby's born is somehow tacky. Which is not really cool either - plenty of people want to talk about it, and plenty of people don't get the kind of pregnancies where we can carry on with our lives otherwise uninterrupted.
As with so many situations involving women's bodies, I feel this is something of an unwinnable situation.
posted by Catseye at 10:58 AM on July 13, 2016 [14 favorites]
On the other hand, getting through pregnancy with a good proportion of people in your professional and personal lives not knowing about it also involves a degree of performance, albeit much more for some than others. And there's a pressure there too - I have been in several discussions with women one-upping each other on how little they talked about their pregnancies on Facebook, where the ideal seemed to be that the quieter you kept it, the better, and saying anything about pregnancy at all on Facebook before the baby's born is somehow tacky. Which is not really cool either - plenty of people want to talk about it, and plenty of people don't get the kind of pregnancies where we can carry on with our lives otherwise uninterrupted.
As with so many situations involving women's bodies, I feel this is something of an unwinnable situation.
posted by Catseye at 10:58 AM on July 13, 2016 [14 favorites]
My wife and I have one kid, so of course she gets a nonstop barrage of "Well what if she's LONELY and needs a SIBLING?" at family get-togethers. She's way more adept at handling microaggressions than I am, but sometimes I can see it's getting to her, so I like to jump in and ask the prying party to clarify exactly which part of our sex lives they'd like us to discuss: just the moment of orgasm, or all the logistical planning around it, too?
This dovetails nicely with my other goal, of not getting invited to so many family events
posted by Mayor West at 10:59 AM on July 13, 2016 [37 favorites]
This dovetails nicely with my other goal, of not getting invited to so many family events
posted by Mayor West at 10:59 AM on July 13, 2016 [37 favorites]
women who have kids aren't spared the intrusiveness - 1 kid "when will you give them a sibling! only kids are [blahblahblah]", 2 kids "won't you miss having a baby around the house??", and then somewhere between 3-5 kids "that's too many! i could never! i bet they're on welfare! overpopulation!" and it all just sucks. there is no accepted way to be a woman that spares us the constant commentary on how we should be doing it better.
"Twins, huh? Damn, I could never have two at once. I think I'd just curl up and die. Are you planning your third, yet?"
My wife has perfected her, "Are you friggin' kidding me?" face.
posted by zarq at 11:00 AM on July 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
"Twins, huh? Damn, I could never have two at once. I think I'd just curl up and die. Are you planning your third, yet?"
My wife has perfected her, "Are you friggin' kidding me?" face.
posted by zarq at 11:00 AM on July 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
is the point of saying "I won't perform my pregnancy" that she feels that there are certain expected public gestures during pregnancy, birth, motherhood, etc, and that she doesn't want to participate so she's just skipping them? Or is it that those public moments are in themselves inauthentic and performative rather than, for some women, traditions to joyfully take on? Because if it's the latter, that seems pretty unfair to women who actually do want to make a big to-do out of their pregnancy and birth by participating in a bunch of cheesy public celebrations. It's pretty hard to tell, and even if she's not being judgey, there are plenty of people who do believe that, which is a bummer.
Does it matter? She's saying that she won't do it, and women in this thread have lamented that they wished they weren't expected to do it. Saying that "I won't abide by society's expectations" doesn't mean "women who abide by society's expectations suck," it just means "society's expectations don't work for me".
Right now, women who want to "make a big to-do out of their pregnancy" are privileged in that they are considered to be doing the "normal" thing*. Expanding that definition of "normal" doesn't mean pushing out the women who are already there.
*with the caveat that of course they are still judged on the hows and whens etc., etc. because women can't win as has been articulated above.
posted by sparklemotion at 11:10 AM on July 13, 2016 [16 favorites]
Does it matter? She's saying that she won't do it, and women in this thread have lamented that they wished they weren't expected to do it. Saying that "I won't abide by society's expectations" doesn't mean "women who abide by society's expectations suck," it just means "society's expectations don't work for me".
Right now, women who want to "make a big to-do out of their pregnancy" are privileged in that they are considered to be doing the "normal" thing*. Expanding that definition of "normal" doesn't mean pushing out the women who are already there.
*with the caveat that of course they are still judged on the hows and whens etc., etc. because women can't win as has been articulated above.
posted by sparklemotion at 11:10 AM on July 13, 2016 [16 favorites]
> That said, my wife and I decided a long time ago we weren't having kids, and it's AMAZING how many people aggressively push the concept that she's failed in her primary mission in life.
My wife and I also decided to not have kids, but if anyone has said anything like that to her - aside from a few "you'll probably change your mind later"-type comments when we were younger - it would be news to me. I would fucking lose my mind if they did. Imagine how much better life would be for everyone if people just minded their own fucking business.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:31 AM on July 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
My wife and I also decided to not have kids, but if anyone has said anything like that to her - aside from a few "you'll probably change your mind later"-type comments when we were younger - it would be news to me. I would fucking lose my mind if they did. Imagine how much better life would be for everyone if people just minded their own fucking business.
posted by The Card Cheat at 11:31 AM on July 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
What I don't get a sense of from the brief mention in the interview: is the point of saying "I won't perform my pregnancy" that she feels that there are certain expected public gestures during pregnancy, birth, motherhood, etc, and that she doesn't want to participate so she's just skipping them? Or is it that those public moments are in themselves inauthentic and performative rather than, for some women, traditions to joyfully take on? Because if it's the latter, that seems pretty unfair to women who actually do want to make a big to-do out of their pregnancy and birth by participating in a bunch of cheesy public celebrations. It's pretty hard to tell, and even if she's not being judgey, there are plenty of people who do believe that, which is a bummer.
I think that it's that *for some people* these public moments are inauthentic, but we are still expected to perform it. More importantly, that pregnancy is supposed to be this wonderful, happy thing that sets soon-to-be-mothers aglow. And I guess some women don't get really bad pregnancy symptoms and/or really wanted to be pregnant and/or feel better with the attention and the emotional support.
BUT some women don't. Personally, I feel awful, physically and also mentally isolated, and I just wish everything were normal until the baby comes out. Half of me is still trying to "push through" the wall of physical discomfort and exhaustion, because that's what I'm used to doing, but it doesn't work. The other half of me wants to wait it out in a dark cave and not talk to anyone, because all my normal methods of self-soothing are failing me (food, sleep, talking with people, sex, etc).
I wasn't big on the "announcing" the pregnancy, and I don't want to have a "gender reveal." (Because why does anyone care until my kid is of dating age and sexual orientation becomes a thing?) I don't care if other people do, but *I* don't want it. But somehow not putting on the performance signals to society that I'm not excited about the baby and that I won't be a good mother. So I'm doing my best to show up and be happy and socialize, and *that* is the performance aspect. And it's adding more stress to my pregnancy.
posted by ethidda at 11:37 AM on July 13, 2016 [12 favorites]
I think that it's that *for some people* these public moments are inauthentic, but we are still expected to perform it. More importantly, that pregnancy is supposed to be this wonderful, happy thing that sets soon-to-be-mothers aglow. And I guess some women don't get really bad pregnancy symptoms and/or really wanted to be pregnant and/or feel better with the attention and the emotional support.
BUT some women don't. Personally, I feel awful, physically and also mentally isolated, and I just wish everything were normal until the baby comes out. Half of me is still trying to "push through" the wall of physical discomfort and exhaustion, because that's what I'm used to doing, but it doesn't work. The other half of me wants to wait it out in a dark cave and not talk to anyone, because all my normal methods of self-soothing are failing me (food, sleep, talking with people, sex, etc).
I wasn't big on the "announcing" the pregnancy, and I don't want to have a "gender reveal." (Because why does anyone care until my kid is of dating age and sexual orientation becomes a thing?) I don't care if other people do, but *I* don't want it. But somehow not putting on the performance signals to society that I'm not excited about the baby and that I won't be a good mother. So I'm doing my best to show up and be happy and socialize, and *that* is the performance aspect. And it's adding more stress to my pregnancy.
posted by ethidda at 11:37 AM on July 13, 2016 [12 favorites]
Ya know..... some of us worked very, very hard to achieve our pregnancies... some women are fine with being celebrated and loved on a little bit more. Making a new human is an awesome thing. Hard to achieve for some. It's not always a bad thing to be loved on because you did it..... If that was your choice. I completely agree with the article and her point of view.... but for those women who WANT to have children.....who WANT to share with family and friends.... CELEBRATE them..... It's an amazing experience, if that is your choice.
posted by pearlybob at 12:08 PM on July 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by pearlybob at 12:08 PM on July 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's great that some women are fine with being celebrated and loved on a little bit more! But some other women are not, or choose to opt out of it, or desperately want to but cannot, and those women get a lot of negativity on personal and societal levels for it. This does not mean that the women who are fine with being celebrated and loved on in this way are bad, of course, just that this particular thing is not about them.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 12:18 PM on July 13, 2016 [26 favorites]
posted by everybody had matching towels at 12:18 PM on July 13, 2016 [26 favorites]
Even if you want to celebrate something that you're excited about, you might not want to celebrate it with random people placing their preconceived notions onto you about how exactly you should behave.
posted by something something at 12:23 PM on July 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by something something at 12:23 PM on July 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
I can't get at the interview in the first link, but I haven't seen anything suggesting that women should not be allowed to announce or celebrate their own pregnancy.
But it's not anyone else's business, and nobody should be making unsolicited comments about it. That does maybe put a little extra burden on pregnant women who want to talk about it with strangers, or who are tired and want your seat, but it's probably worth the tradeoff when you consider all the other pregnant or pregnant looking people who don't want to be accosted by strangers making assumptions about them and prying into their personal lives.
posted by ernielundquist at 12:30 PM on July 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
But it's not anyone else's business, and nobody should be making unsolicited comments about it. That does maybe put a little extra burden on pregnant women who want to talk about it with strangers, or who are tired and want your seat, but it's probably worth the tradeoff when you consider all the other pregnant or pregnant looking people who don't want to be accosted by strangers making assumptions about them and prying into their personal lives.
posted by ernielundquist at 12:30 PM on July 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
I think there's a major, major difference between "being loved on", which I'm interpreting to mean experiencing welcomed and reciprocated affections from one's friends and family, and what we're talking about here, which is the unwelcome intrusion into a private area of life by people who are not offering more love, but criticism and passive aggression and judgement.
posted by palomar at 12:36 PM on July 13, 2016 [15 favorites]
posted by palomar at 12:36 PM on July 13, 2016 [15 favorites]
Saulgoodman, I am so sorry that happened to you and your wife. My partner and I went through something similar and it was awful. I absolutely hated leaving the house because no matter how I dressed to hide it, I was showing a lot. People would make unsolicited comments All. The. Time.
A couple of days before my D&E I had to be flown to the city where the procedure would be done, and I was seated next to a very nice man who immediately figured out that I was pregnant and was really excited to talk about it with me. I was completely drained of emotional energy at that point and I just could not fathom faking enthusiasm about a mythical healthy take-home baby for the length of the flight. So against all my instincts to make things comfortable for other people, I said, "Actually, we just found out the baby is very very sick and isn't going to make it." It was kind of awkward and certainly put a damper on things, but I was glad not to have to pretend I felt anything but horrible.
I certainly don't think anyone should feel like they have to keep silent about their pregnancies or avoid sharing the joy with their family and friends if they want to. But really, I think they should be free to set the tone for how much, when, and with whom they want to share.
posted by Secret Sockdentity at 12:40 PM on July 13, 2016 [20 favorites]
A couple of days before my D&E I had to be flown to the city where the procedure would be done, and I was seated next to a very nice man who immediately figured out that I was pregnant and was really excited to talk about it with me. I was completely drained of emotional energy at that point and I just could not fathom faking enthusiasm about a mythical healthy take-home baby for the length of the flight. So against all my instincts to make things comfortable for other people, I said, "Actually, we just found out the baby is very very sick and isn't going to make it." It was kind of awkward and certainly put a damper on things, but I was glad not to have to pretend I felt anything but horrible.
I certainly don't think anyone should feel like they have to keep silent about their pregnancies or avoid sharing the joy with their family and friends if they want to. But really, I think they should be free to set the tone for how much, when, and with whom they want to share.
posted by Secret Sockdentity at 12:40 PM on July 13, 2016 [20 favorites]
Being loved on is great. What isn't great was the questions and comments like "Why aren't you posting belly progress pics? Here are links to how some other people are doing them, aren't these cute? You should do that!" "Have you been going for your checkups? I've never seen you post about going to the doctor or any updates on how things are progressing." "I haven't seen any pictures of you decorating yet, how's the nursery coming along? I'm sure you guys are doing something super cute, post pics!!" "You are really going to regret not getting professional photos done while you're pregnant. Want a link to the photographer who did ours?"
While these questions may come from a place of love and concern, these are expectations that others were placing on me, the pregnant woman, to fulfill desires that they had. They have nothing to do with what I, as a person, wanted to do, share, or experience. It was very obvious that I was doing something strange and off-putting by not happily doing all these expected things.
posted by erst at 12:54 PM on July 13, 2016 [15 favorites]
While these questions may come from a place of love and concern, these are expectations that others were placing on me, the pregnant woman, to fulfill desires that they had. They have nothing to do with what I, as a person, wanted to do, share, or experience. It was very obvious that I was doing something strange and off-putting by not happily doing all these expected things.
posted by erst at 12:54 PM on July 13, 2016 [15 favorites]
there's also the really long emails with dubious links about vaccinations and pre-school and breast feeding and baby wearing and co sleeping and crying it out and tuna and coffee and the type of pillow you need and and and and and. when this advice is solicited - great! there is a real lack of support issue! they often don't get enough of the type they actively seek out! but it so often isn't solicited, gently rebuffed, and then aggressively 'offered' again.
posted by nadawi at 12:57 PM on July 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 12:57 PM on July 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
I'm fascinated (in a sort of looking at a venomous insect on my pillow kind of way) by the fact that now wealthy and famous women are the poster children for "women shouldn't have autonomy over their bodies". Where it used to be lower-class women on welfare that were pointed to as not having rights over the "whether and how" of their pregnancies, it's now highly visible and successful women that are told that men should decide whether they have any bodily autonomy.
In effect all women have their autonomy removed, but the public arguments? It's people like Jennifer Aniston and Gretchen Carlson who are pointed at and told they have no right t complain.And yes, I do see a strong link between the two situations, because those arguments may be directed at the famous, but they apply to every woman.
posted by happyroach at 1:02 PM on July 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
In effect all women have their autonomy removed, but the public arguments? It's people like Jennifer Aniston and Gretchen Carlson who are pointed at and told they have no right t complain.And yes, I do see a strong link between the two situations, because those arguments may be directed at the famous, but they apply to every woman.
posted by happyroach at 1:02 PM on July 13, 2016 [7 favorites]
Where it used to be lower-class women on welfare that were pointed to as not having rights over the "whether and how" of their pregnancies, it's now highly visible and successful women that are told that men should decide whether they have any bodily autonomy.
I get and agree with what you're saying, but make no mistake: it's not a "used to be/now" situation. The media's focal point vacillates but it's not an either/or. It's been this way for a long long time for all women regardless of socioeconomic status. Women cannot win.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 1:14 PM on July 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
I get and agree with what you're saying, but make no mistake: it's not a "used to be/now" situation. The media's focal point vacillates but it's not an either/or. It's been this way for a long long time for all women regardless of socioeconomic status. Women cannot win.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 1:14 PM on July 13, 2016 [8 favorites]
everybody wants and expects you to give them updates and pics on social media.
Actually lots of people don't want (or certainly don't expect/demand) that. But apparently it's the ones that do that think it's their place to impose their wishes on their friends. Can you imagine directly telling Facebook friends to stop posting so many baby/pregnancy pictures? I think most adults would have the manners and common sense to know that would be incredibly rude. But it's just as rude to try to force your pregnant friend or family member to exhibit their pregnancy or child in a particular way on social media.
posted by wondermouse at 1:21 PM on July 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Actually lots of people don't want (or certainly don't expect/demand) that. But apparently it's the ones that do that think it's their place to impose their wishes on their friends. Can you imagine directly telling Facebook friends to stop posting so many baby/pregnancy pictures? I think most adults would have the manners and common sense to know that would be incredibly rude. But it's just as rude to try to force your pregnant friend or family member to exhibit their pregnancy or child in a particular way on social media.
posted by wondermouse at 1:21 PM on July 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Can you imagine directly telling Facebook friends to stop posting so many baby/pregnancy pictures? I think most adults would have the manners and common sense to know that would be incredibly rude. But it's just as rude to try to force your pregnant friend or family member to exhibit their pregnancy or child in a particular way on social media.
Yeah... it's a situation where I just stopped following a lot of my pregnant friends on social media because I was so bored with their updates. We did post one update to announce to the world that I'm pregnant, and other than one comment about my coffee habit, I haven't said anything else publicly online about it because it's not interesting to me. Some people have asked if things are ok and asked for bump pictures, but they're not going to get them because it just seems tedious and totally performing some weird societal norm that most people don't like.
(We told people just to get it over with.)
A lot of these people I unfollowed exhibited the same behavior with their weddings. The two are similar performances. It's frustrating how these women complain about how they hate doing all this shit but yet they do it. I also didn't have a wedding so whatever.
My main point though is that it sucks that women have a lot of pressure but it's also hard to have these discussions and acknowledge that not everybody likes the pageantry of pregnancy which is kind of isolating. It's like women can't win no matter what, which is hugely frustrating. Basically taking any action outside the perceived normal invites scrutiny, and it shouldn't be the case. I'd love for it to change and I won't engage in that behavior, but it's dumb to act like the pressure isn't there.
posted by kendrak at 1:46 PM on July 13, 2016 [12 favorites]
Yeah... it's a situation where I just stopped following a lot of my pregnant friends on social media because I was so bored with their updates. We did post one update to announce to the world that I'm pregnant, and other than one comment about my coffee habit, I haven't said anything else publicly online about it because it's not interesting to me. Some people have asked if things are ok and asked for bump pictures, but they're not going to get them because it just seems tedious and totally performing some weird societal norm that most people don't like.
(We told people just to get it over with.)
A lot of these people I unfollowed exhibited the same behavior with their weddings. The two are similar performances. It's frustrating how these women complain about how they hate doing all this shit but yet they do it. I also didn't have a wedding so whatever.
My main point though is that it sucks that women have a lot of pressure but it's also hard to have these discussions and acknowledge that not everybody likes the pageantry of pregnancy which is kind of isolating. It's like women can't win no matter what, which is hugely frustrating. Basically taking any action outside the perceived normal invites scrutiny, and it shouldn't be the case. I'd love for it to change and I won't engage in that behavior, but it's dumb to act like the pressure isn't there.
posted by kendrak at 1:46 PM on July 13, 2016 [12 favorites]
Can you imagine directly telling Facebook friends to stop posting so many baby/pregnancy pictures?
I have seen this, actually. (Well, not 'stop' but 'more baby stuff? when did you get so boring????' type comments, not to me but to a very close friend.) You really can't win.
posted by Catseye at 2:11 PM on July 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
I have seen this, actually. (Well, not 'stop' but 'more baby stuff? when did you get so boring????' type comments, not to me but to a very close friend.) You really can't win.
posted by Catseye at 2:11 PM on July 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
The real problem with there being such deeply opposing camps - I think, honestly, from different cultural places - is you can't make someone happy who is hoping and expecting that their community all comes together to embrace her, at the same time as you are making someone happy who hopes you will never ask a single question until the baby pops out.
I am trying desperately to get pregnant right now. If I were to get pregnant, and make it to the point when it was safe to announce, I would want 21-gun-salutes going off. I wouldn't want to have to /tell/ people over and over again - I would want them to remember and ask me questions. I would want to feel like they were involved in my pregnancy. I would be desperately sitting on a heap of nursery photos wanting to show them every moment and hoping that someone would ask so I could nonchalantly be like "Well, okay..." and then be like BABY BABY BABY BABY.
If people weren't asking me about the baby, I wouldn't assume they were trying to give me privacy and space. I would assume they were judging - judging me for having a baby, not really caring about this huge deal in my life which means they don't care about me, whatever. I wouldn't know what to think. But I would think the worst. Even reading this thread I would still think the worst! Because this stuff is so visceral, and you interpret it through the lens of how you would want to be treated.
It's not as easy as "well why don't they just back off for everyone and people can invite them in if they want" because people like me will just go wallow in a well of sorrow and loneliness.
posted by corb at 3:07 PM on July 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
I am trying desperately to get pregnant right now. If I were to get pregnant, and make it to the point when it was safe to announce, I would want 21-gun-salutes going off. I wouldn't want to have to /tell/ people over and over again - I would want them to remember and ask me questions. I would want to feel like they were involved in my pregnancy. I would be desperately sitting on a heap of nursery photos wanting to show them every moment and hoping that someone would ask so I could nonchalantly be like "Well, okay..." and then be like BABY BABY BABY BABY.
If people weren't asking me about the baby, I wouldn't assume they were trying to give me privacy and space. I would assume they were judging - judging me for having a baby, not really caring about this huge deal in my life which means they don't care about me, whatever. I wouldn't know what to think. But I would think the worst. Even reading this thread I would still think the worst! Because this stuff is so visceral, and you interpret it through the lens of how you would want to be treated.
It's not as easy as "well why don't they just back off for everyone and people can invite them in if they want" because people like me will just go wallow in a well of sorrow and loneliness.
posted by corb at 3:07 PM on July 13, 2016 [6 favorites]
I dunno, the behavior described up thread seems perfect and caring to me. If I knew someone who announced a pregnancy and didn't follow up with discussion about it, I would not ask questions and assume she wanted privacy. But I know miscarriages happen and they are emotionally painful, so if that went on a long time I might ask a discreet and hopefully tactful question to find out if I should plan that baby shower or keep knitting that blanket.
posted by bq at 3:11 PM on July 13, 2016
posted by bq at 3:11 PM on July 13, 2016
Can you imagine directly telling Facebook friends to stop posting so many baby/pregnancy pictures?
Sadly, yes, this is a thing.
posted by bq at 3:17 PM on July 13, 2016
Sadly, yes, this is a thing.
posted by bq at 3:17 PM on July 13, 2016
It's weird that this post should come along right now, because the "You have no concept of what love really means, and your life doesn't have any real meaning or purpose until you have children" brigade seems to be out in full force lately. And some of this is coming from people who know that I physically can't have children, know that I made the decision not to have them long before I lost that capability, and know that I had good reasons for that decision.
I can only imagine how much worse it must be for a woman in the public eye.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:28 PM on July 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
I can only imagine how much worse it must be for a woman in the public eye.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 3:28 PM on July 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
corb: I think it's okay for people I know to ask me about my pregnancy. Usually, I just say that I'm mostly dealing with the symptoms and sleeping a lot, and then talk about something that I'm more interested about, and they get it. And I'm sure if you don't change the subject, they'd love to hear you talk more about it.
It's a bit like if you're looking for a job. Some people want to talk about it. And some people would rather be distracted by other topics. But people who care about you should know you well enough to know which type you are.
The problem is with people I don't know very well: Facebook friends, friends or friends, my husband's awkward and distant (like REALLY distant) relatives, the guy from work I see twice a week but never talk to, etc. They've never cared about me before. And they also don't get to judge me (and my abilities) because of things I post or don't post on social media.
posted by ethidda at 3:29 PM on July 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
It's a bit like if you're looking for a job. Some people want to talk about it. And some people would rather be distracted by other topics. But people who care about you should know you well enough to know which type you are.
The problem is with people I don't know very well: Facebook friends, friends or friends, my husband's awkward and distant (like REALLY distant) relatives, the guy from work I see twice a week but never talk to, etc. They've never cared about me before. And they also don't get to judge me (and my abilities) because of things I post or don't post on social media.
posted by ethidda at 3:29 PM on July 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
I am so happy and interested to see pregnancy and child updates on Facebook. But But it's just as rude to try to force your pregnant friend or family member to exhibit their pregnancy or child in a particular way on social media.
I had so much of this. People were and are still mad that nobody knew I was pregnant til 20 weeks. People are furious that babby wasn't announced on Facebook (or indeed, has never been on it).
There has also been deeply unpleasant comments regarding Theresa May and possibly infertility in the last week.
posted by threetwentytwo at 3:34 PM on July 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
I had so much of this. People were and are still mad that nobody knew I was pregnant til 20 weeks. People are furious that babby wasn't announced on Facebook (or indeed, has never been on it).
There has also been deeply unpleasant comments regarding Theresa May and possibly infertility in the last week.
posted by threetwentytwo at 3:34 PM on July 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
It's not as easy as "well why don't they just back off for everyone and people can invite them in if they want" because people like me will just go wallow in a well of sorrow and loneliness.
I think a lot can be taken from a person's social cues. My friends who are posting so much about being pregnant/being a parent clearly want to engage. They're putting it out there to be discussed. (Well, or at least to be seen. I tend to view any social media post as up for discussion.) It's clearly important to them and so they invite the attention and celebration.
If others take a more reserved, private approach, then that should be respected. When we announced our pregnancy, most of our friends thought it was a joke because we never talked about wanting to have kids and never post about our relationship or anything like that. After we confirmed that yes, there's a kid on the way, everybody congratulated us and we moved on.
The problem is with people I don't know very well: Facebook friends, friends or friends, my husband's awkward and distant (like REALLY distant) relatives, the guy from work I see twice a week but never talk to, etc. They've never cared about me before. And they also don't get to judge me (and my abilities) because of things I post or don't post on social media.
Oh god yes this! I have had people I don't really talk to come out of the woodwork to tell me how wonderful it is and shower me with the confederation of motherhood and it seems more about them than me. Like I mentioned above, if they took my cues (and knew me at all) they would see this stuff is not my bag. It goes back to the idea that you must behave a certain way towards having kids and if you don't you're weird. These are the people giving me a hard time for not being excited enough. These are the people who do that bullshit of "you'll never understand _____ because you're not a parent". It's tone deaf and obnoxious.
And this is where I agree with Aniston - we need to stop heaping this pressure on women and we need to let people just be. All of the stuff last week about Leadsom possibly being a better fit for leadership because she's a mother was disgusting. We rarely say that stuff about men. We also rarely give men such shit for not having kids like their life is incomplete.
posted by kendrak at 4:02 PM on July 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
I think a lot can be taken from a person's social cues. My friends who are posting so much about being pregnant/being a parent clearly want to engage. They're putting it out there to be discussed. (Well, or at least to be seen. I tend to view any social media post as up for discussion.) It's clearly important to them and so they invite the attention and celebration.
If others take a more reserved, private approach, then that should be respected. When we announced our pregnancy, most of our friends thought it was a joke because we never talked about wanting to have kids and never post about our relationship or anything like that. After we confirmed that yes, there's a kid on the way, everybody congratulated us and we moved on.
The problem is with people I don't know very well: Facebook friends, friends or friends, my husband's awkward and distant (like REALLY distant) relatives, the guy from work I see twice a week but never talk to, etc. They've never cared about me before. And they also don't get to judge me (and my abilities) because of things I post or don't post on social media.
Oh god yes this! I have had people I don't really talk to come out of the woodwork to tell me how wonderful it is and shower me with the confederation of motherhood and it seems more about them than me. Like I mentioned above, if they took my cues (and knew me at all) they would see this stuff is not my bag. It goes back to the idea that you must behave a certain way towards having kids and if you don't you're weird. These are the people giving me a hard time for not being excited enough. These are the people who do that bullshit of "you'll never understand _____ because you're not a parent". It's tone deaf and obnoxious.
And this is where I agree with Aniston - we need to stop heaping this pressure on women and we need to let people just be. All of the stuff last week about Leadsom possibly being a better fit for leadership because she's a mother was disgusting. We rarely say that stuff about men. We also rarely give men such shit for not having kids like their life is incomplete.
posted by kendrak at 4:02 PM on July 13, 2016 [5 favorites]
When I had a corporate job, a couple of middle management type women -- one middle aged and trying to have a baby, the other a grandma -- had every single pregnant woman in the department parade past their cubicles on a routine basis and they would squeal and go "Oh, turn! Show me your bump!" and then make orgasmically appreciative noises. If two men had been parading women past their desks and directing them to show off their bodies and moaning and groaning and squealing with delight, I think it would have been reported to HR as sexual harassment.
I found the whole thing incredibly disgusting. Like, great that you two clearly have some fetish, but I don't come to work to listen to this crap and I cannot get away from it. Can't you two indulge your fetish a little more discretely?
I always hoped the women who were showing off their bellies were somehow getting something positive out of it. But I also wondered sometimes if they felt they had no real choice but to comply with the expectation and that squicked me out.
Good for this author who decided that her pregnancy was a private matter.
posted by Michele in California at 5:05 PM on July 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
I found the whole thing incredibly disgusting. Like, great that you two clearly have some fetish, but I don't come to work to listen to this crap and I cannot get away from it. Can't you two indulge your fetish a little more discretely?
I always hoped the women who were showing off their bellies were somehow getting something positive out of it. But I also wondered sometimes if they felt they had no real choice but to comply with the expectation and that squicked me out.
Good for this author who decided that her pregnancy was a private matter.
posted by Michele in California at 5:05 PM on July 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
I had a really traumatic pregnancy with my second child and didn't want to talk about it at all. In retrospect I wish I could have enjoyed it more but at the time it was awful. I was eating like a fiend so that people would think I was just fat, wearing all black, avoiding going out in public. Every mention or question was like a knife. I was so grateful every time I knew someone was actually going to the effort to follow my social cues. There's such a massive difference in behaviour when someone is thrilled to be pregnant - it should be fairly obvious when it's okay to be asking about the pregnancy based on how the pregnant person is behaving but obviously that's not the case.
As far as Jennifer Aniston's article is concerned, I'm so glad she wrote it. This whole celebrity mag/gossip thing that is absolutely obsessed with pregnancy is what finally got me to give up the crap mags altogether. I hate to think how much money I spent on them for years and years (there was a time, probably due to depression, where I couldn't read books; I could only focus on short articles and fluff) but after the 6 zillionth article about whether Nicole Kidman was pregnant or JA or Angelina Jolie or indeed basically any famous woman over the age of 15 and under the age of 60 I'd had enough. No more. I cut those crappy mags off cold turkey and haven't missed them.
If I never read the words 'tum-thing to tell us?' again it will be too soon. Just the fact that that sentence lives in my brain makes me livid.
And if it's not babies then it's all about whether someone is pressuring their boyfriend into getting married. I don't think I'm capable of making a noise that conveys my disgust enough.
posted by h00py at 5:10 PM on July 13, 2016 [9 favorites]
As far as Jennifer Aniston's article is concerned, I'm so glad she wrote it. This whole celebrity mag/gossip thing that is absolutely obsessed with pregnancy is what finally got me to give up the crap mags altogether. I hate to think how much money I spent on them for years and years (there was a time, probably due to depression, where I couldn't read books; I could only focus on short articles and fluff) but after the 6 zillionth article about whether Nicole Kidman was pregnant or JA or Angelina Jolie or indeed basically any famous woman over the age of 15 and under the age of 60 I'd had enough. No more. I cut those crappy mags off cold turkey and haven't missed them.
If I never read the words 'tum-thing to tell us?' again it will be too soon. Just the fact that that sentence lives in my brain makes me livid.
And if it's not babies then it's all about whether someone is pressuring their boyfriend into getting married. I don't think I'm capable of making a noise that conveys my disgust enough.
posted by h00py at 5:10 PM on July 13, 2016 [9 favorites]
kendrak: All of the stuff last week about Leadsom possibly being a better fit for leadership because she's a mother was disgusting.
Thank you for mentioning that--I found that whole discussion to be a real knife to the heart. I think it's insulting to any woman who doesn't have kids, whether by choice or not.
Personally, as someone who would love to be a mother but isn't, it's insult to injury. So not only has my body failed to do what I desperately want it to, but...what, I have less capacity for empathy and caring because of it? Thanks a lot.
posted by Secret Sockdentity at 5:12 PM on July 13, 2016 [14 favorites]
Thank you for mentioning that--I found that whole discussion to be a real knife to the heart. I think it's insulting to any woman who doesn't have kids, whether by choice or not.
Personally, as someone who would love to be a mother but isn't, it's insult to injury. So not only has my body failed to do what I desperately want it to, but...what, I have less capacity for empathy and caring because of it? Thanks a lot.
posted by Secret Sockdentity at 5:12 PM on July 13, 2016 [14 favorites]
And another thing. (Clearly I have many feelings about this that I Must Share.)
When I got pregnant a second time, after our first traumatic disaster, I was completely terrified and refused to tell a single soul (other than my partner, that is) for a really long time--I didn't tell some people until the pregnancy was over (unfortunately, the same way as the first). I simply did not want to discuss it, because I couldn't bear to have other people be excited for me when I knew there was a significant chance that this pregnancy wouldn't work out either.
I did have one person corner me and ask me excitedly if I was pregnant, when they noticed I wasn't drinking. I had to tell them I really didn't want to talk about it and why, and they (thankfully) backed off.
Afterwards, I had several friends admit they had known I was pregnant from the way I looked and acted, but hadn't pressed me about it because they understood that it might be a bit fraught, and they figured I would tell them when I was ready to share. I can't tell you how much that kindness meant to me at what was a very difficult time already.
posted by Secret Sockdentity at 5:25 PM on July 13, 2016 [18 favorites]
When I got pregnant a second time, after our first traumatic disaster, I was completely terrified and refused to tell a single soul (other than my partner, that is) for a really long time--I didn't tell some people until the pregnancy was over (unfortunately, the same way as the first). I simply did not want to discuss it, because I couldn't bear to have other people be excited for me when I knew there was a significant chance that this pregnancy wouldn't work out either.
I did have one person corner me and ask me excitedly if I was pregnant, when they noticed I wasn't drinking. I had to tell them I really didn't want to talk about it and why, and they (thankfully) backed off.
Afterwards, I had several friends admit they had known I was pregnant from the way I looked and acted, but hadn't pressed me about it because they understood that it might be a bit fraught, and they figured I would tell them when I was ready to share. I can't tell you how much that kindness meant to me at what was a very difficult time already.
posted by Secret Sockdentity at 5:25 PM on July 13, 2016 [18 favorites]
I work in a women's hospital, which means we have lots of high-risk pregnancies, and I literally do not acknowledge pregnant strangers' pregnancies in the hospital unless they are actively squealing and jumping up and down with delight, because I cannot be certain that the baby on board is healthy or even alive, and I do not want to add to that stranger's misery if that baby isn't. I feel on reasonably safe ground congratulating people with babies in their arms in the elevators, because by definition those babies are alive and out of the incubator, but otherwise, I just try to treat everyone neutrally. This has been educational - I didn't realize how really differently women perceived as pregnant were treated by strangers in the public sphere, and I didn't realize how much I was unconsciously taking part in that until I started actively pulling myself up. I'm not even the kind of person who talks to strangers while I wait for the bus, or whatever - I mostly keep to myself, but apparently I was the sort of person who smiled at pregnant tummies.
As to Jennifer Aniston - the day I see multiple front-page People/Who articles frothing about how an unnamed source says Matt LeBlanc is heartbroken because he's infertile, or Matthew Perry must be trying with his wife because he's in such good shape, then I will buy the idea that it's just celebrity culture and famous people seek it out because it's to their advantage. Until then, I'm reading it as yet another burden of being a reproductive-aged woman in the public sphere.
posted by gingerest at 5:48 PM on July 13, 2016 [33 favorites]
As to Jennifer Aniston - the day I see multiple front-page People/Who articles frothing about how an unnamed source says Matt LeBlanc is heartbroken because he's infertile, or Matthew Perry must be trying with his wife because he's in such good shape, then I will buy the idea that it's just celebrity culture and famous people seek it out because it's to their advantage. Until then, I'm reading it as yet another burden of being a reproductive-aged woman in the public sphere.
posted by gingerest at 5:48 PM on July 13, 2016 [33 favorites]
I'm pretty sure Jennifer Aniston doesn't give a rat's ass about getting pregnant and by god, yes, she should be tired of hearing about it.
"Performing pregnancy" is reminding me of someone I knew online who didn't mention she was pregnant until she mentioned having another kid. I think her reasons were something like, "I didn't want to have to hear about it all the time, I just wanted to be a normal person somewhere."
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:19 PM on July 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
"Performing pregnancy" is reminding me of someone I knew online who didn't mention she was pregnant until she mentioned having another kid. I think her reasons were something like, "I didn't want to have to hear about it all the time, I just wanted to be a normal person somewhere."
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:19 PM on July 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
It is never, ever, ever, ever okay to ask someone if they're pregnant. Never. Don't. Don't do it ever.
If they aren't pregnant, it is at best insulting and at worst deeply hurtful (maybe this is the Nth negative pregnancy test after the Xth round of fertility treatments)
And if they are pregnant and they haven't told you it's because they don't want you to know. Which means you are either forcing them into a lie that they know you are almost guaranteed to find out about, or pressuring a person into revealing information to you they did not want to reveal, just because they don't want to have to straight up lie about it.
If they wanted you to know, they'd tell you!!!!!!
It is straight up surreal and bizarre to me that this is something people don't get. Get your noses the hell out of my uterus. Now. Before I punch you.
posted by Cozybee at 9:37 PM on July 13, 2016 [11 favorites]
If they aren't pregnant, it is at best insulting and at worst deeply hurtful (maybe this is the Nth negative pregnancy test after the Xth round of fertility treatments)
And if they are pregnant and they haven't told you it's because they don't want you to know. Which means you are either forcing them into a lie that they know you are almost guaranteed to find out about, or pressuring a person into revealing information to you they did not want to reveal, just because they don't want to have to straight up lie about it.
If they wanted you to know, they'd tell you!!!!!!
It is straight up surreal and bizarre to me that this is something people don't get. Get your noses the hell out of my uterus. Now. Before I punch you.
posted by Cozybee at 9:37 PM on July 13, 2016 [11 favorites]
(with the obvious exception of, say, medical disclosure forms for activities pregnant women can't partake in (scuba diving) or other general medical needs like a doctor prescribing you something. So my "never" is a bit too broad. But in a social setting? Never. If she's at 9 months and looks precisely like someone stuffed a watermelon under her shirt? She still gets to be the one to discuss it first. Or choose not to discuss it at all.)
posted by Cozybee at 9:41 PM on July 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Cozybee at 9:41 PM on July 13, 2016 [1 favorite]
Then there was the fact we didn't have any immediate post birth pictures (supposedly a crime)
So funny that. We had out first kid at home and it was a long labour (like 40 hours? with back labour part of the time) and all of us - my wife, the midwives and me - we all pretty frazzled by the end of it. I didn't have to actually give birth but I had been doing everything else including a lot of cleaning up. And somehow beforehand I had got the idea in my mind that the birth would be a lot gorier than it was - like somehow there would be blood everywhere. I don't know what I was thinking. Anyway, based on this assumption I put on a crappy old t-shirt that I didn't care about getting dirty. (yes, I'm getting to the point here)
So: when all was said and done my wife, the head midwife, our new son and I all crammed in for a picture - the only post-birth picture we took (film cameras and all). And when you look at it all anyone sees is the KMFDM concert t-shirt I'm wearing with this picture on it.
So honestly there are worse outcomes than not having any post-birth photos. Like having your husband wear a shirt that should not really ever appear in a family photograph.
posted by GuyZero at 9:54 PM on July 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
So funny that. We had out first kid at home and it was a long labour (like 40 hours? with back labour part of the time) and all of us - my wife, the midwives and me - we all pretty frazzled by the end of it. I didn't have to actually give birth but I had been doing everything else including a lot of cleaning up. And somehow beforehand I had got the idea in my mind that the birth would be a lot gorier than it was - like somehow there would be blood everywhere. I don't know what I was thinking. Anyway, based on this assumption I put on a crappy old t-shirt that I didn't care about getting dirty. (yes, I'm getting to the point here)
So: when all was said and done my wife, the head midwife, our new son and I all crammed in for a picture - the only post-birth picture we took (film cameras and all). And when you look at it all anyone sees is the KMFDM concert t-shirt I'm wearing with this picture on it.
#/media/File:KMFDM_-_Don%27t_Blow_Your_Top.png){kind=link}
So honestly there are worse outcomes than not having any post-birth photos. Like having your husband wear a shirt that should not really ever appear in a family photograph.
posted by GuyZero at 9:54 PM on July 13, 2016 [3 favorites]
So a couple of years ago I worked desk to desk with a woman I don't like. It was mutual. I think she thougt I was a lazy good for nothing and treated me with icy politeness barely masking disdain.
Anyway. She got pregnant. Every day it got more and more obvious, people were queuing up to say "congratulations! I just heard! How much longer?!" And she'd thank them politely and say a few words. Or she'd mention it obliquely on the phone.
At first, I didn't want to presume. I wasn't certain she was pregnant. We were only barely on speaking terms! But was it politer to ignore or to say something?
And the more and more obvious it got, the more incredibly awkward it got.
I think I finally congratulated her when she came in with the baby!
Anyway, this discussion just reminded me of that.
posted by Omnomnom at 1:03 AM on July 14, 2016
Anyway. She got pregnant. Every day it got more and more obvious, people were queuing up to say "congratulations! I just heard! How much longer?!" And she'd thank them politely and say a few words. Or she'd mention it obliquely on the phone.
At first, I didn't want to presume. I wasn't certain she was pregnant. We were only barely on speaking terms! But was it politer to ignore or to say something?
And the more and more obvious it got, the more incredibly awkward it got.
I think I finally congratulated her when she came in with the baby!
Anyway, this discussion just reminded me of that.
posted by Omnomnom at 1:03 AM on July 14, 2016
I just encountered one of those surprise facebook births and my reaction was "oh, I really should be talking to my friend more" not that she did pregnancy wrong! I wonder what it would be like to go through life thinking everything exists for your comfort/convenience/entertainment?
posted by betsybetsy at 5:15 AM on July 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by betsybetsy at 5:15 AM on July 14, 2016 [2 favorites]
When I was spending a lot of time on Disney Parks forums, there used to be these massive threads where pregnant women would share and compare all their tips and ideas for when and how they were going to "do their reveal," "do their gender reveal," and "do their babycation." These were all things I had never heard of before, but are apparently all de rigueur these days. They also seem to require a whole truckload of impenetrable abbreviations, lots of color - coordinated clothing, and handing people things without saying anything and filming their reaction.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:44 PM on July 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 12:44 PM on July 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
how they were going to "do their reveal," "do their gender reveal," and "do their babycation." These were all things I had never heard of before
I was a homemaker and mom and I think I had no maternity clothes at all with my first baby and only a few things with my second. My sister had a serious career and is big on dressing well. She finally got pregnant and began just blathering on to me one day about needing to shop for a maternity wardrobe now.
I looked at her like she had lost her mind. I said "You won't show the first three months, then you will be in your fat clothes until six or seven months. You will only need maternity clothes for like two or three months. You do not need an entire new work wardrobe for this. You will need a few things to augment stuff you already own to get you through the last couple of months or so and still look professional."
Then she spent most of her pregnancy confined to bed and lived in sleepwear. That pregnancy wardrobe never happened.
I understand the big disconnect between me and my sister. I had two kids and had mostly not done paid work, whereas she had a long standing serious career and it was her first pregnancy. I cannot even imagine the differences between my life and that of someone spending their time online trying to plan "their reveal" for their pregnancy.
To my mind, that goes way beyond First World Problems. It veers into fetishizing pregnancy, perhaps in part because more women are opting to just not have babies and women are generally having fewer, so pregnancy is less prosaic than it once was.
posted by Michele in California at 1:02 PM on July 15, 2016
I was a homemaker and mom and I think I had no maternity clothes at all with my first baby and only a few things with my second. My sister had a serious career and is big on dressing well. She finally got pregnant and began just blathering on to me one day about needing to shop for a maternity wardrobe now.
I looked at her like she had lost her mind. I said "You won't show the first three months, then you will be in your fat clothes until six or seven months. You will only need maternity clothes for like two or three months. You do not need an entire new work wardrobe for this. You will need a few things to augment stuff you already own to get you through the last couple of months or so and still look professional."
Then she spent most of her pregnancy confined to bed and lived in sleepwear. That pregnancy wardrobe never happened.
I understand the big disconnect between me and my sister. I had two kids and had mostly not done paid work, whereas she had a long standing serious career and it was her first pregnancy. I cannot even imagine the differences between my life and that of someone spending their time online trying to plan "their reveal" for their pregnancy.
To my mind, that goes way beyond First World Problems. It veers into fetishizing pregnancy, perhaps in part because more women are opting to just not have babies and women are generally having fewer, so pregnancy is less prosaic than it once was.
posted by Michele in California at 1:02 PM on July 15, 2016
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posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:08 AM on July 13, 2016