Why is NASA's Longest-Serving Woman An Hourly Employee?
July 19, 2016 10:05 AM Subscribe
Finley was hired by JPL in 1958, eight months before Congress and President Eisenhower officially created the American space agency. Over her 58-year career there is hardly a NASA mission her work has not touched. She was there for the launch of the first American satellite, worked in mission control during the early lunar missions, plotted a route for the Voyagers on their grand tour of the solar system, cheered as balloons loaded with scientific instruments bobbed in the Venusian winds, and landed Mars rovers on the red planet. Over the course of her long and varied career, she has overcome obstacles that few women working today can contemplate.
Yet in 2004, NASA demoted her because she doesn't have a bachelor's degree.
The Woman Who Helped Us Hear Juno (Popular Science)
Yet in 2004, NASA demoted her because she doesn't have a bachelor's degree.
The Woman Who Helped Us Hear Juno (Popular Science)
However, when NASA changed its policy in 2004, requiring bachelor degrees for all its engineers, that title was taken away. Finley was the only one of the history-making group affected, the other women having retired after working in the lab for decades.
Was this a real problem? Like dozens of employees running around with Engineer titles but no BS? Because that sounds kind of unlikely at NASA, and if she's the only one this affected...
Christ, what assholes.
posted by Huck500 at 10:14 AM on July 19, 2016 [26 favorites]
Was this a real problem? Like dozens of employees running around with Engineer titles but no BS? Because that sounds kind of unlikely at NASA, and if she's the only one this affected...
Christ, what assholes.
posted by Huck500 at 10:14 AM on July 19, 2016 [26 favorites]
This is exactly a problem my mother ran into; she was denied a promotion because she didn't have a degree, despite nearly 30 years of experience, and the fact that when she started, no one in her field was required to have a degree. It was pure-dee bullshit then and it is now.
Also, I work with many professionals who are older and don't have full-on degrees; some have none, some have a few years or an associates' because that's all that you needed in their field 30 years ago.
Sounds like she's decided not to protest, but if she did, I'd support her.
posted by emjaybee at 10:23 AM on July 19, 2016 [15 favorites]
Also, I work with many professionals who are older and don't have full-on degrees; some have none, some have a few years or an associates' because that's all that you needed in their field 30 years ago.
Sounds like she's decided not to protest, but if she did, I'd support her.
posted by emjaybee at 10:23 AM on July 19, 2016 [15 favorites]
This stinks of the bullshit they try to pull when they want to get rid of expensive long-time employees. I like what NASA does but I have never been a fan of the way they manage themselves. Everything I hear just reeks of toxic culture bullshit.
posted by bleep at 10:26 AM on July 19, 2016 [12 favorites]
posted by bleep at 10:26 AM on July 19, 2016 [12 favorites]
I know one person with an Engineer title who has worked at JPL since the 70s and does not have a Bachelor's degree, so whatever setup this was in 04 is either not still in place in 2016 (this is entirely possible as there's a whole new title/level setup now than in 04), or this change was not actually applied across the board.
posted by chimaera at 10:26 AM on July 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by chimaera at 10:26 AM on July 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
When I worked for JPL a number of years ago, as I recall, there was one pay scale for BS degrees and another for BA degrees. A BA in math tipped you into the BS pay scale. I should ask some of my friends who are still there if that has changed.
posted by skye.dancer at 10:28 AM on July 19, 2016
posted by skye.dancer at 10:28 AM on July 19, 2016
I mean, when she started working, was there such a thing as, "Bachelor's Degree in Aerospace Engineering"?
I'm assuming her and the teams she was a part of invented many of the things such a degree would, you know, cover.
So give her a pass, already. And an honorary degree.
And like name a planet after her.
And more.
posted by alex_skazat at 10:36 AM on July 19, 2016 [44 favorites]
I'm assuming her and the teams she was a part of invented many of the things such a degree would, you know, cover.
So give her a pass, already. And an honorary degree.
And like name a planet after her.
And more.
posted by alex_skazat at 10:36 AM on July 19, 2016 [44 favorites]
Creeping credentialism. The MBA-think of those who increasingly run science want everything quantifiable, in neat categories and defensible on paper. It's also very common with post-graduate degrees on the science side.
Experience is soft and floppy. It's hard to quantify and hard to describe with a database tickbox. Experience doesn't help one fit in the machine. It's messy and unique and disordered.
This puts a lot of people in the junk pile. They're older, often female and/or visible minorities, having had much reduced access to formal education in their youth. So, of course, they're highly vulnerable to being cut, when the MBAs sharpen their pencils. They don't fit. Their stories don't count, because their contributions aren't easy to quantify.
And so we miss and devalue a lot of human potential because of a generation of lazy management failure that looks at credentials and qualifications and process and not results.
posted by bonehead at 10:38 AM on July 19, 2016 [67 favorites]
Experience is soft and floppy. It's hard to quantify and hard to describe with a database tickbox. Experience doesn't help one fit in the machine. It's messy and unique and disordered.
This puts a lot of people in the junk pile. They're older, often female and/or visible minorities, having had much reduced access to formal education in their youth. So, of course, they're highly vulnerable to being cut, when the MBAs sharpen their pencils. They don't fit. Their stories don't count, because their contributions aren't easy to quantify.
And so we miss and devalue a lot of human potential because of a generation of lazy management failure that looks at credentials and qualifications and process and not results.
posted by bonehead at 10:38 AM on July 19, 2016 [67 favorites]
If she could get a degree from life experience, she'd have a PhD. FFS.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:44 AM on July 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:44 AM on July 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
I've heard of plenty of honorary degrees given for, in effect, "life experience". So why shouldn't she get one if the suits consider it so damn necessary?
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:46 AM on July 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 10:46 AM on July 19, 2016 [4 favorites]
IFF she's being paid well, and getting full benefits, then:
Yes, I see that somehow differentiating her from "engineers" by an internal title is not right, but at the same time:
I'm a little bothered by the idea that somehow "salaried" people are socially superior to "hourly" people, and that if you are a good enough person you "deserve" to be in the superior class.
Maybe this is similar to a reaction I have when, for example, women talk about the "indignity" of being mistaken for employees of a retail shop instead of people somehow assuming they're in a social class "above" employees. It's just people. Maybe you looked like you knew things, maybe there's some expensive accessory you're carrying or not carrying that people don't notice. Being mistaken for a competent person who works at a store is a compliment more than anything. Why would you be insulted?
Filling out time cards is a huge drag, though. Having to account for all your time is a significant cognitive and time burden, and I'd rather that people with obvious expertise and good will were free to just do stuff instead of having to do the meta-work of tracking themselves constantly, or, if there's real benefit to this tracking, that the decision of who does it isn't based solely on a credential from decades ago achievable based on accidents of birth.
Having been forced to study, for example, technical writing and statistics as a condition of getting my BS -- neither of which is required for competent "make this program work" performance, but both of which have a strong effect on my value as a technical contributor, I appreciate that some kinds of education prepare you differently from learning on the job. However, 20 years later, I'd hope that there was a better way to differentiate employees based on actual manifested skills and achievements, and how specifically her teams have benefitted from her work and her self.
I'm starting to see a huge pattern of people being treated as part of a group, as a list of attributes, that is alienating, inefficient, and infuriating. People need to be treated on a case-by-case basis _all the time_. This woman has particular strengths and talents which we know nothing about; those are highly relevant, much more than "she's worked for NASA for years" or "she doesn't have a BS". Whether she's hourly or salaried doesn't tell me really how she's being treated or what's being lost or gained; that would be highly relevant too.
posted by amtho at 10:47 AM on July 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yes, I see that somehow differentiating her from "engineers" by an internal title is not right, but at the same time:
I'm a little bothered by the idea that somehow "salaried" people are socially superior to "hourly" people, and that if you are a good enough person you "deserve" to be in the superior class.
Maybe this is similar to a reaction I have when, for example, women talk about the "indignity" of being mistaken for employees of a retail shop instead of people somehow assuming they're in a social class "above" employees. It's just people. Maybe you looked like you knew things, maybe there's some expensive accessory you're carrying or not carrying that people don't notice. Being mistaken for a competent person who works at a store is a compliment more than anything. Why would you be insulted?
Filling out time cards is a huge drag, though. Having to account for all your time is a significant cognitive and time burden, and I'd rather that people with obvious expertise and good will were free to just do stuff instead of having to do the meta-work of tracking themselves constantly, or, if there's real benefit to this tracking, that the decision of who does it isn't based solely on a credential from decades ago achievable based on accidents of birth.
Having been forced to study, for example, technical writing and statistics as a condition of getting my BS -- neither of which is required for competent "make this program work" performance, but both of which have a strong effect on my value as a technical contributor, I appreciate that some kinds of education prepare you differently from learning on the job. However, 20 years later, I'd hope that there was a better way to differentiate employees based on actual manifested skills and achievements, and how specifically her teams have benefitted from her work and her self.
I'm starting to see a huge pattern of people being treated as part of a group, as a list of attributes, that is alienating, inefficient, and infuriating. People need to be treated on a case-by-case basis _all the time_. This woman has particular strengths and talents which we know nothing about; those are highly relevant, much more than "she's worked for NASA for years" or "she doesn't have a BS". Whether she's hourly or salaried doesn't tell me really how she's being treated or what's being lost or gained; that would be highly relevant too.
posted by amtho at 10:47 AM on July 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
I mean, when she started working, was there such a thing as, "Bachelor's Degree in Aerospace Engineering"?
Of course there were, but when she started, the job she had was a couple steps above the typing pool. She would not have been a "computer" with an engineering degree.
JPL is literally on the campus of, and is run in part by, the premier technical university in the world (CalTech). So, if there was a sort of career problems caused by her lack of a degree, she certainly would have remedied it.
Also, things not mentioned in this article:
1) Her new title
2) How/if her pay was affected
3) What type of work she does now, did previous to 2004 when she had an engineer title, and does now her title is different.
4) Whether or not she even gives a shit about the title or getting paid hourly.
My father works for a "not part of the government" place like JPL as an engineer, and anyone whose her age with that many years in, and getting paid by the hour is turning in eye-wateringly large invoices every week. Like, "$300-$400 an hour, as many hours as you can stand" type invoices.
posted by sideshow at 10:47 AM on July 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Of course there were, but when she started, the job she had was a couple steps above the typing pool. She would not have been a "computer" with an engineering degree.
JPL is literally on the campus of, and is run in part by, the premier technical university in the world (CalTech). So, if there was a sort of career problems caused by her lack of a degree, she certainly would have remedied it.
Also, things not mentioned in this article:
1) Her new title
2) How/if her pay was affected
3) What type of work she does now, did previous to 2004 when she had an engineer title, and does now her title is different.
4) Whether or not she even gives a shit about the title or getting paid hourly.
My father works for a "not part of the government" place like JPL as an engineer, and anyone whose her age with that many years in, and getting paid by the hour is turning in eye-wateringly large invoices every week. Like, "$300-$400 an hour, as many hours as you can stand" type invoices.
posted by sideshow at 10:47 AM on July 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I mean, when she started working, was there such a thing as, "Bachelor's Degree in Aerospace Engineering"?
I attended a lecture earlier this year about the history of medical treatment in the 19th century. The speaker pointed out that because surgery was a very improvisational field two hundred years ago, there was a push on in the British army to line up some standards for surgeons. After careful (or possibly not) consideration, the army decided that its surgeons would need to have a medical degree from Oxford or Cambridge. Unfortunately, the speaker told us, neither university offered medical degrees at the time.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:47 AM on July 19, 2016 [6 favorites]
I attended a lecture earlier this year about the history of medical treatment in the 19th century. The speaker pointed out that because surgery was a very improvisational field two hundred years ago, there was a push on in the British army to line up some standards for surgeons. After careful (or possibly not) consideration, the army decided that its surgeons would need to have a medical degree from Oxford or Cambridge. Unfortunately, the speaker told us, neither university offered medical degrees at the time.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:47 AM on July 19, 2016 [6 favorites]
Something releated happened on the gov program I am currently on. An in-house woman interviewed for an open role, won the spot, took over the responsibilities. As all thing gov contractor-ish, the actual promo was going to take 'some time'. Later...
Prime: "She can't do that work. She's not qualified (no degree)."
Engr Lead: "Uh, she *is* qualified, because she is doing the work, spectacularly, and has been for a few months."
Prime: "Well, you can let her do the work, but no title and no money."
wtf is she supposed to do now that her former role is filled? I hope she is looking...fuckers.
posted by j_curiouser at 10:47 AM on July 19, 2016 [16 favorites]
Prime: "She can't do that work. She's not qualified (no degree)."
Engr Lead: "Uh, she *is* qualified, because she is doing the work, spectacularly, and has been for a few months."
Prime: "Well, you can let her do the work, but no title and no money."
wtf is she supposed to do now that her former role is filled? I hope she is looking...fuckers.
posted by j_curiouser at 10:47 AM on July 19, 2016 [16 favorites]
I heard a story from one of the local chemical plants that illustrates the wisdom of this. One of the hourly service technicians made it his mission in life to learn to rebuild every pump in the plant. He acquired all the tools, sourced all the spare parts, and whenever a pump went down he was ready to get it back online, usually in hours.
Then one day the MBA's sharpened their pencils and made the firing decisions based on education rather than performance or experience. Pump guy got the axe.
The downtime that resulted while they were training others to do what he had learned to do cost them millions of dollars.
posted by Bringer Tom at 10:51 AM on July 19, 2016 [44 favorites]
Then one day the MBA's sharpened their pencils and made the firing decisions based on education rather than performance or experience. Pump guy got the axe.
The downtime that resulted while they were training others to do what he had learned to do cost them millions of dollars.
posted by Bringer Tom at 10:51 AM on July 19, 2016 [44 favorites]
Because, you know... all that time he spent on his mission in life wasn't education. No certificate, you don't know anything, right?
posted by hippybear at 10:59 AM on July 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by hippybear at 10:59 AM on July 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
No certificate, you don't know anything, right?
jfc...opm, fdic, state...*all* those guys have Security+ or CISSP or CEH or...
to be fair, the executives hold the primary responsibility, but ffs, certs mean shit in evaluating competency and ethics.
posted by j_curiouser at 11:06 AM on July 19, 2016
jfc...opm, fdic, state...*all* those guys have Security+ or CISSP or CEH or...
to be fair, the executives hold the primary responsibility, but ffs, certs mean shit in evaluating competency and ethics.
posted by j_curiouser at 11:06 AM on July 19, 2016
Then one day the MBA's sharpened their pencils and made the firing decisions based on education rather than performance or experience. Pump guy got the axe.
There needs to be a movement to treat people as individuals.
See also: policing decisions, maybe. Pronoun choice. Gender-based bathroom access. Mortgage availability decisions.
posted by amtho at 11:06 AM on July 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
There needs to be a movement to treat people as individuals.
See also: policing decisions, maybe. Pronoun choice. Gender-based bathroom access. Mortgage availability decisions.
posted by amtho at 11:06 AM on July 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
I would think employers care about degrees because they show knowledge and preparation for the job. I'd think any employer, including NASA, would consider decades of experience as a NASA engineer to be equivalent or greater.
While I know NASA has a relatively small budget and that was probably the motivation, it seems the cost of one person's salary would be tiny compared to sending an SUV robot to Mars, keeping folks alive and safe in a satellite dorm, and perfectly aiming the fastest object made by humans at Jupiter's orbit. Like, I get it for new hires, but they couldn't grandfather (pardon the term) her in?
posted by mccarty.tim at 11:07 AM on July 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
While I know NASA has a relatively small budget and that was probably the motivation, it seems the cost of one person's salary would be tiny compared to sending an SUV robot to Mars, keeping folks alive and safe in a satellite dorm, and perfectly aiming the fastest object made by humans at Jupiter's orbit. Like, I get it for new hires, but they couldn't grandfather (pardon the term) her in?
posted by mccarty.tim at 11:07 AM on July 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I mean, when she started working, was there such a thing as, "Bachelor's Degree in Aerospace Engineering"?
Of course there were, but when she started, the job she had was a couple steps above the typing pool. She would not have been a "computer" with an engineering degree.
A degree in Aerospace Engineering In 1958? Probably not. The term appears to have been coming into use right around that time (thanks, Sputnik!), with degrees by that name coming a few years later.
posted by The Tensor at 11:16 AM on July 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
Of course there were, but when she started, the job she had was a couple steps above the typing pool. She would not have been a "computer" with an engineering degree.
A degree in Aerospace Engineering In 1958? Probably not. The term appears to have been coming into use right around that time (thanks, Sputnik!), with degrees by that name coming a few years later.
posted by The Tensor at 11:16 AM on July 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
There needs to be a movement to treat people as individuals.
See also: policing decisions, maybe. Pronoun choice. Bathroom access. Loan decisions.
posted by amtho at 2:06 PM on July 19 [+] [!]
Agree, but that's already been rhetorically co-opted. Libertarians are big on the "treating people as individuals" thing, but only so far as ending affirmative action and not taxing rich individuals to fund programs that help the collective. Which would maybe be okay, if it weren't for the fact that we still live with the consequences of centuries of discrimination. And everyone saying, "I don't see race" won't fix that.
Still, it is great to see someone rant about pronouns or whatever outrage of the week, and see them sputter when you ask how it affects them and why the object of their outrage should change for them.
posted by mccarty.tim at 11:17 AM on July 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
See also: policing decisions, maybe. Pronoun choice. Bathroom access. Loan decisions.
posted by amtho at 2:06 PM on July 19 [+] [!]
Agree, but that's already been rhetorically co-opted. Libertarians are big on the "treating people as individuals" thing, but only so far as ending affirmative action and not taxing rich individuals to fund programs that help the collective. Which would maybe be okay, if it weren't for the fact that we still live with the consequences of centuries of discrimination. And everyone saying, "I don't see race" won't fix that.
Still, it is great to see someone rant about pronouns or whatever outrage of the week, and see them sputter when you ask how it affects them and why the object of their outrage should change for them.
posted by mccarty.tim at 11:17 AM on July 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
So, a couple things. First, JPL is not NASA - it's a Federally Funded Research and Development Center that is operated by CalTech for NASA contracts. It's unclear to me whether she was employed by JPL or NASA. There's often a lot of muddying of waters in these kinds of work arrangements (I work at an FFRDC on USAF programs and we have many people employed by my company but who also do reserve duty for the divisions we work for, for example). This is not to defend the act of demoting her, just pointing out that I think the article is a little unclear on some things.
Second, yes, credential inflation is in my opinion a huge problem at FFRDCs. For one thing, it's very difficult to quantify the value we (and I mean FFRDCs in general) bring to the government. Our selling point is that we provide specialized knowledge and skills that cannot be procured by using rank-and-file government employees or other types of contractors. How do you prove that? One way is that my company waves around statistics about how many employees they have with advanced degrees.
A few years ago I was told that I needed a Masters or "I don't know what use we'll have for you." So I got the degree. The company paid for it, the time was my own, it was fairly stressful. And I don't use it. But the company can add me to the list of employees with advanced degrees to show how valuable we are.
FFRDCs are weird places in a lot of ways.
posted by backseatpilot at 11:31 AM on July 19, 2016 [9 favorites]
Second, yes, credential inflation is in my opinion a huge problem at FFRDCs. For one thing, it's very difficult to quantify the value we (and I mean FFRDCs in general) bring to the government. Our selling point is that we provide specialized knowledge and skills that cannot be procured by using rank-and-file government employees or other types of contractors. How do you prove that? One way is that my company waves around statistics about how many employees they have with advanced degrees.
A few years ago I was told that I needed a Masters or "I don't know what use we'll have for you." So I got the degree. The company paid for it, the time was my own, it was fairly stressful. And I don't use it. But the company can add me to the list of employees with advanced degrees to show how valuable we are.
FFRDCs are weird places in a lot of ways.
posted by backseatpilot at 11:31 AM on July 19, 2016 [9 favorites]
They gave that fucker Cosby a million honorary degrees for being a comedian, seems like someone could give this lady one.
posted by emjaybee at 11:36 AM on July 19, 2016 [21 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 11:36 AM on July 19, 2016 [21 favorites]
They gave Tim McGraw an honorary DOCTORATE from a college he 1. didn't take any music classes at, and 2. dropped out of because he was a beer chugging flunky. (Full disclosure: I attended this school and had friends graduating that year, and basically everyone was pissed and McGraw showed up, gave a half ass speech which can be boiled down to "kick them doors down", and then bailed for the rest of the ceremony. People who had actually paid good money for their education were rightfully angry at this farce.)
Yeah, seriously, they could do this lady a solid and just give her an honorary degree.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:41 AM on July 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yeah, seriously, they could do this lady a solid and just give her an honorary degree.
posted by deadaluspark at 11:41 AM on July 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
Maybe she wants to be hourly? Most of the people I've talked to in science and tech are pretty clear "if you don't have to go salary, don't ever go salary." It basically just converts your overtime from 1.5x rate to free.
posted by Mitrovarr at 11:47 AM on July 19, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Mitrovarr at 11:47 AM on July 19, 2016 [6 favorites]
No one at NASA has been able to satisfactorily explain why one of the pioneers of our space agency now fills out timecards, her worth measured in hours instead of decades.
As other folks have suggested above, JPL is its own thing, but lots of surprisingly high-ranking federal government employees fill out time cards.
posted by Jahaza at 11:47 AM on July 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
As other folks have suggested above, JPL is its own thing, but lots of surprisingly high-ranking federal government employees fill out time cards.
posted by Jahaza at 11:47 AM on July 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Second, yes, credential inflation is in my opinion a huge problem at FFRDCs. For one thing, it's very difficult to quantify the value we (and I mean FFRDCs in general) bring to the government. Our selling point is that we provide specialized knowledge and skills that cannot be procured by using rank-and-file government employees or other types of contractors. How do you prove that? One way is that my company waves around statistics about how many employees they have with advanced degrees.
[...]
FFRDCs are weird places in a lot of ways.
I'm also an FFRDC employee, and this has been a problem for us as well, but I feel like it's gotten better since a few years ago when they started to break job categories down into engineering and research tracks. The researchers are still expected to have advanced degrees, but engineers may or may not.
It's still likely that a lot of people with an engineering job title have Masters degrees or are pursuing one, but a lack of one is probably only a significant barrier to promotion if you're on the research side. Of course things get fuzzy since all of our engineering work is research-y and most of our researchers have to do some level of engineering of their own, but at least there's some method to the madness.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:05 PM on July 19, 2016
[...]
FFRDCs are weird places in a lot of ways.
I'm also an FFRDC employee, and this has been a problem for us as well, but I feel like it's gotten better since a few years ago when they started to break job categories down into engineering and research tracks. The researchers are still expected to have advanced degrees, but engineers may or may not.
It's still likely that a lot of people with an engineering job title have Masters degrees or are pursuing one, but a lack of one is probably only a significant barrier to promotion if you're on the research side. Of course things get fuzzy since all of our engineering work is research-y and most of our researchers have to do some level of engineering of their own, but at least there's some method to the madness.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:05 PM on July 19, 2016
bureaucracy not being efficient at pricing and allocating human capital is hardly shocking but articles like this are good because they convert people who aren't typical converted by logic alone. This story is tragic but it's not tragic simply because of her lengthy history with nasa or because she is a woman or what have you; it's because she is a human who was fucked by a faceless bureaucracy for arbitrary reasons. it's a special kind of cold blooded senselessness everyone is dumbfounded by on the personal level but on an institutional level qualities like empathy and common sense somehow get filtered out consistently. it's like there is an upper bound for institution complexity for humans above which reasonable people invariably form unreasonable, psychopathic organizations.
posted by forgettable at 12:05 PM on July 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by forgettable at 12:05 PM on July 19, 2016 [3 favorites]
I'd always assumed this sort of thing was due to the need to prove value to the taxpayer (thinking of all those sensationalists "you wouldn't believe the silliness the government pays for!" articles in right wing media). Whatever else you think of it, a degree is an objective measure.
I'd seen this sort of thing happen on Mr. antinomia's team. He helped build supercomputers for the government back in the day, and they were often the world's fastest, but towards the end of his years working there he wouldn't have been able to get a job as new hire because he only has a BS. One of his colleagues only had a GED. I thought the changing requirements were misguided because these guys (they were all guys) were brilliant and their skill set is rare, regardless of what pieces of paper they held.
I assume what happened to her was not necessarily sexist since I've seen it happen to these guys as well, but I would like to know why the government is turning to degree requirements rather than skill, experience, and job performance to determine hiring and promotion. Is it fear of being seen as corrupt and wasteful? Ie., can I blame the republicans and libertarians?
posted by antinomia at 12:33 PM on July 19, 2016
I'd seen this sort of thing happen on Mr. antinomia's team. He helped build supercomputers for the government back in the day, and they were often the world's fastest, but towards the end of his years working there he wouldn't have been able to get a job as new hire because he only has a BS. One of his colleagues only had a GED. I thought the changing requirements were misguided because these guys (they were all guys) were brilliant and their skill set is rare, regardless of what pieces of paper they held.
I assume what happened to her was not necessarily sexist since I've seen it happen to these guys as well, but I would like to know why the government is turning to degree requirements rather than skill, experience, and job performance to determine hiring and promotion. Is it fear of being seen as corrupt and wasteful? Ie., can I blame the republicans and libertarians?
posted by antinomia at 12:33 PM on July 19, 2016
I've seen this kind of stunt used to remove people. "We posted a new position that's exactly like the job you've been doing for years. Except the new position requires a degree in XYZ. So you can't apply for it."
posted by lagomorphius at 12:40 PM on July 19, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by lagomorphius at 12:40 PM on July 19, 2016 [7 favorites]
a degree is an objective measure
Nope. Your University of Pheonix online masters is not better than my ten year-old BS in Electrical & Computer Engr from the University of Colorado.
And neither is a good as someone who can demonstrably execute the work at hand. *That* is the *objective* measure.
posted by j_curiouser at 12:48 PM on July 19, 2016 [14 favorites]
Nope. Your University of Pheonix online masters is not better than my ten year-old BS in Electrical & Computer Engr from the University of Colorado.
And neither is a good as someone who can demonstrably execute the work at hand. *That* is the *objective* measure.
posted by j_curiouser at 12:48 PM on July 19, 2016 [14 favorites]
There needs to be a movement to treat people as individuals.
Tell that to the idiots that decided that you could parse resumes using a computer algorithm and now companies all have "careers" pages that are just redirects to third-party agencies that do the parsing for you. Now you have to copy and paste all the content that you laid out on your resume into an impersonal form that some computer will review looking for keywords.
Nobody is an individual anymore. We're all numbers on someone's spreadsheet, and as long as our number stays away from the bottom of the sheet we'll be just fine.
posted by Snowflake at 12:49 PM on July 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
Tell that to the idiots that decided that you could parse resumes using a computer algorithm and now companies all have "careers" pages that are just redirects to third-party agencies that do the parsing for you. Now you have to copy and paste all the content that you laid out on your resume into an impersonal form that some computer will review looking for keywords.
Nobody is an individual anymore. We're all numbers on someone's spreadsheet, and as long as our number stays away from the bottom of the sheet we'll be just fine.
posted by Snowflake at 12:49 PM on July 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
j_curiouser by "objective measure" I mean on paper, if you need a box to tick. I agree with you completely that it's a poor metric of whether a person can do a job, but it would seem to do the trick if your fear is having people accuse you of hiring unqualified people by using simplisitic criteria that it is easy to attack you with (ie. did they even have a degree?).
In case there is any confusion, I think it is a problem that they would use whether or not a person has a degree as an absolute measure of whether they can have a particular job or be promoted. And I'm truly wondering how it came to this.
posted by antinomia at 12:56 PM on July 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
In case there is any confusion, I think it is a problem that they would use whether or not a person has a degree as an absolute measure of whether they can have a particular job or be promoted. And I'm truly wondering how it came to this.
posted by antinomia at 12:56 PM on July 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'd always assumed this sort of thing was due to the need to prove value to the taxpayer (thinking of all those sensationalists "you wouldn't believe the silliness the government pays for!" articles in right wing media). Whatever else you think of it, a degree is an objective measure.
There aren't many managers (hopefully) who get up in the morning thinking "I can I screw over my employees even more?" Metrics like degrees as proxies for competence com about because management wants simplicity. Management is about taking big problems and simplifying them down to something that can be acted upon.
How that simplification is done is where all the damage happens. Bad indicators will be seized upon as much as good ones are. Choices made to make things simple mean that exceptions aren't allowed. And if what was once, if not a norm, but an accepted practice, becomes colouring outside of those neat little boxes, then those exceptions, like Finley, become the victims of management's impulse to simplify.
There's a lot a good manager could do: grand(father|mother)ing in old emplyees; having another metric to assess equivalence to degree (a GED sort of thing); offer training and upgrading.
But the lazy way to assess competency is to outsource it: make the employee get certified by a university. Problem done; they're qualified (or they're out on their ear).
So, like most problems, this starts as a decent enough requirement---we need the best people, gets half-assed in the implementation and ends-up through the best of intentions having severe consequences for the workers who produce all the results and ultimately under-delivers on value to the tax payers who fund them.
posted by bonehead at 1:00 PM on July 19, 2016
There aren't many managers (hopefully) who get up in the morning thinking "I can I screw over my employees even more?" Metrics like degrees as proxies for competence com about because management wants simplicity. Management is about taking big problems and simplifying them down to something that can be acted upon.
How that simplification is done is where all the damage happens. Bad indicators will be seized upon as much as good ones are. Choices made to make things simple mean that exceptions aren't allowed. And if what was once, if not a norm, but an accepted practice, becomes colouring outside of those neat little boxes, then those exceptions, like Finley, become the victims of management's impulse to simplify.
There's a lot a good manager could do: grand(father|mother)ing in old emplyees; having another metric to assess equivalence to degree (a GED sort of thing); offer training and upgrading.
But the lazy way to assess competency is to outsource it: make the employee get certified by a university. Problem done; they're qualified (or they're out on their ear).
So, like most problems, this starts as a decent enough requirement---we need the best people, gets half-assed in the implementation and ends-up through the best of intentions having severe consequences for the workers who produce all the results and ultimately under-delivers on value to the tax payers who fund them.
posted by bonehead at 1:00 PM on July 19, 2016
From a NY Times profile a few weeks ago:
"... a laboratory-wide review of jobs and pay in 2008 altered her employment status.
“We redesigned our entire compensation structure and all disciplines were reviewed and updated to accurately describe employee duties and responsibilities,” said Veronica McGregor, a laboratory spokeswoman, in an email.
An explanatory memo the laboratory distributed when the changes were revealed said that “a four-year college degree in engineering, science or similar technical field is required to be classified as an engineer, consistent with industry and NASA.”
Instead, Ms. Finley, who never finished her degree, fell into a newly created classification: engineering specialist, an hourly position.
Her overall pay did not change, and she is now eligible for overtime.
“She retained her same salary and standing,” Ms. McGregor said.
But the change still irks Ms. Finley; she must mark down her arrival each day, her half-hour of lunch and the time she leaves to go home.
“It’s a demotion,” she said. “No one wants a demotion. We want to be treated like we deserve. But it’s true. I don’t have a degree.”
She added, “I think I’m kind of smart, maybe.” Finishing a degree was not an option. “I just hate school,” she said. “I love work.” "
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 1:04 PM on July 19, 2016 [11 favorites]
"... a laboratory-wide review of jobs and pay in 2008 altered her employment status.
“We redesigned our entire compensation structure and all disciplines were reviewed and updated to accurately describe employee duties and responsibilities,” said Veronica McGregor, a laboratory spokeswoman, in an email.
An explanatory memo the laboratory distributed when the changes were revealed said that “a four-year college degree in engineering, science or similar technical field is required to be classified as an engineer, consistent with industry and NASA.”
Instead, Ms. Finley, who never finished her degree, fell into a newly created classification: engineering specialist, an hourly position.
Her overall pay did not change, and she is now eligible for overtime.
“She retained her same salary and standing,” Ms. McGregor said.
But the change still irks Ms. Finley; she must mark down her arrival each day, her half-hour of lunch and the time she leaves to go home.
“It’s a demotion,” she said. “No one wants a demotion. We want to be treated like we deserve. But it’s true. I don’t have a degree.”
She added, “I think I’m kind of smart, maybe.” Finishing a degree was not an option. “I just hate school,” she said. “I love work.” "
posted by Mr.Know-it-some at 1:04 PM on July 19, 2016 [11 favorites]
“She retained her same salary and standing,” Ms. McGregor said.
Translation: she's never, ever going to see a grade increase or have a chance at a promotion, but she gets to keep her responsibilities because her co-workers, her union or the public might fuss. Instead we're going to move her into a new box, which allows us harass her with little things. This is all quite fair, of course.
posted by bonehead at 1:12 PM on July 19, 2016 [18 favorites]
Translation: she's never, ever going to see a grade increase or have a chance at a promotion, but she gets to keep her responsibilities because her co-workers, her union or the public might fuss. Instead we're going to move her into a new box, which allows us harass her with little things. This is all quite fair, of course.
posted by bonehead at 1:12 PM on July 19, 2016 [18 favorites]
My dad knew a woman who had "Bachelor's, Eng." listed as her degree in her resume. She was hired by an aircraft manufacturer in the 1950s in an entry level position based on that, and worked her way up to run a department. She was there for decades. At some point it was discovered that she had used "Eng" to mean "English" and some hapless hiring manager had assumed "Engineering". Oops. I believe she got away with it until she retired.
posted by town of cats at 1:23 PM on July 19, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by town of cats at 1:23 PM on July 19, 2016 [20 favorites]
I have been turned down for jobs many time during my career just because I don't have a degree, even though I developed and designed teaching courses for for the job.
On one occasion I was actually turned down by a company that was using material I had produced in their training courses. I had the last laugh when it turned out that they hadn't got permission to use it and were sued.
posted by Burn_IT at 1:55 PM on July 19, 2016 [7 favorites]
On one occasion I was actually turned down by a company that was using material I had produced in their training courses. I had the last laugh when it turned out that they hadn't got permission to use it and were sued.
posted by Burn_IT at 1:55 PM on July 19, 2016 [7 favorites]
from Mr.Know-it-some : She added, “I think I’m kind of smart, maybe.”
A brilliant, storied career of nearly 60 years, and they're nickel-and-diming her with this insulting shit, and she full knows it, and that's still something she can think about herself.
FLAMES, FLAMES on the side of my face...
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:06 PM on July 19, 2016 [16 favorites]
A brilliant, storied career of nearly 60 years, and they're nickel-and-diming her with this insulting shit, and she full knows it, and that's still something she can think about herself.
FLAMES, FLAMES on the side of my face...
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:06 PM on July 19, 2016 [16 favorites]
My dad knew a woman who had "Bachelor's, Eng." listed as her degree in her resume. She was hired by an aircraft manufacturer in the 1950s in an entry level position based on that, and worked her way up to run a department. She was there for decades. At some point it was discovered that she had used "Eng" to mean "English" and some hapless hiring manager had assumed "Engineering".
I work for a company which has a term in its name that means one (important) thing in the industry the company does its primary business in but another (important) thing in my actual profession. If you were a recruiter looking for people in my field, and you read the full name of my company without looking it up, you might take my current job to be something rather fancier than it actually is. I have been contacted by recruiters who - I am pretty sure - did exactly that.
posted by atoxyl at 2:06 PM on July 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
I work for a company which has a term in its name that means one (important) thing in the industry the company does its primary business in but another (important) thing in my actual profession. If you were a recruiter looking for people in my field, and you read the full name of my company without looking it up, you might take my current job to be something rather fancier than it actually is. I have been contacted by recruiters who - I am pretty sure - did exactly that.
posted by atoxyl at 2:06 PM on July 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Like (not the actual details but) imagine I wrote software to support meteorologists but I kept getting email from people looking for "cloud computing" experts.
posted by atoxyl at 2:17 PM on July 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 2:17 PM on July 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
JPL is literally on the campus of, and is run in part by, the premier technical university in the world (CalTech).
Well, it's on the campus in the sense that it is part of the university's land. Its not on what most people would call the actual campus. JPL is mostly in La Canada Flintridge and physically separate from where any non-JPL Techers are (Pasadena, starting at the corner of California & Hill). There is a small part of JPL in Pasadena but its also separate from the Caltech campus. Unless you're working specifically with JPL, the vast majority of students will never go to any part of JPL land (and similarly many JPL employees would never/rarely go onto the main campus).
(Also, it's Caltech, not CalTech, people. It's like if people typed UsA or something... just a little thing but drives me crazy...)
posted by thefoxgod at 2:41 PM on July 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
Well, it's on the campus in the sense that it is part of the university's land. Its not on what most people would call the actual campus. JPL is mostly in La Canada Flintridge and physically separate from where any non-JPL Techers are (Pasadena, starting at the corner of California & Hill). There is a small part of JPL in Pasadena but its also separate from the Caltech campus. Unless you're working specifically with JPL, the vast majority of students will never go to any part of JPL land (and similarly many JPL employees would never/rarely go onto the main campus).
(Also, it's Caltech, not CalTech, people. It's like if people typed UsA or something... just a little thing but drives me crazy...)
posted by thefoxgod at 2:41 PM on July 19, 2016 [5 favorites]
Her overall pay did not change, and she is now eligible for overtime.
That's a win, right?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:55 PM on July 19, 2016
That's a win, right?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:55 PM on July 19, 2016
The lasting legacy of the "rocket girls" of JPL, previously (I hadn't tagged Sue Finley before, sorry), where there's a link to Sue's profile video and profile text from JPL. The profile text includes this comment on her future plans:
posted by filthy light thief at 6:40 PM on July 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
You've been at JPL since 1957. Any plans to retire?The video was posted June 18, 2014. Maybe she's planning her exit. Here's her Wiki entry, with a list of publications by Finley.
No. Well, soon. I have commitments through 2016. Juno is getting to Jupiter and we're going to have tones on that, and New Horizons is getting to Pluto in 2015 and it's playing its data back in '16. So I have things to do.
posted by filthy light thief at 6:40 PM on July 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
A bunch of my friends have hourly government jobs and have fought to keep them, since you can get very significant paid overtime and make far more than salaried employees. I don't know the details of JPL, but she could be getting 100k base, plus 50k overtime, plus a 50k pension. Not a bad deal at all, although she deserves every penny of it.
posted by miyabo at 8:23 PM on July 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by miyabo at 8:23 PM on July 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Someone asked, way up top:
Was this a real problem? Like dozens of employees running around with Engineer titles but no BS? Because that sounds kind of unlikely at NASA
Let's say you have a large number of people getting technical training in the military. These people might leave the military and take work as contractors, performing tasks similar to those they did in the service. Their job title might even be "engineer." However, the qualifications for their job could read something like, "Four-year degree in ______ engineering from an accredited four-year university, or equivalent experience." In this scenario, you will very probably end up with a lot of people who possess equivalent experience.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:40 PM on July 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
Was this a real problem? Like dozens of employees running around with Engineer titles but no BS? Because that sounds kind of unlikely at NASA
Let's say you have a large number of people getting technical training in the military. These people might leave the military and take work as contractors, performing tasks similar to those they did in the service. Their job title might even be "engineer." However, the qualifications for their job could read something like, "Four-year degree in ______ engineering from an accredited four-year university, or equivalent experience." In this scenario, you will very probably end up with a lot of people who possess equivalent experience.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:40 PM on July 19, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is nuts. It is incredibly common for employers in certain technical/engineering fields to recognize that training and educational norms and the role of the trades have shifted, and to therefore "officially" certify employees for company purposes as having the equivalent of a BS--based on work experience and knowledge--for purposes of rank, promotion, and pay. Often they made you take a couple of college courses first.
posted by desuetude at 11:29 PM on July 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by desuetude at 11:29 PM on July 19, 2016 [2 favorites]
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