100 days
July 29, 2016 3:13 PM Subscribe

With America's general election 100 days away, and another two months before the first debate, Hillary Clinton and Tim Kaine are off on a bus tour through Pennsylvania and Ohio (events), while Donald Trump campaigns in Ohio and Colorado. Where The Election Goes From Here
posted by roomthreeseventeen (3379 comments total) 79 users marked this as a favorite

Thank you, R317!
posted by mochapickle at 3:16 PM on July 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

There's an election?
posted by schmod at 3:16 PM on July 29, 2016 [33 favorites]

oh god just let it be over
posted by DoctorFedora at 3:17 PM on July 29, 2016 [36 favorites]

I don't know if I can take another 100 days of this.
posted by infinitywaltz at 3:17 PM on July 29, 2016 [15 favorites]

Holy Moly Guacamole! Another thread!
posted by OmieWise at 3:17 PM on July 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

We can do this! CAFFEINE/DRAMAMINE 2016!
posted by mochapickle at 3:19 PM on July 29, 2016 [38 favorites]

See the exhaustion thread one door down...
posted by rtha at 3:20 PM on July 29, 2016 [17 favorites]

Clinton campaign also hacked.

Soooo now enterprising journalists look for evidence that anything in the leaks was altered, right?
posted by schadenfrau at 3:22 PM on July 29, 2016 [5 favorites]

Our theme song: Sharon Jones & The Dap-Kings, "100 Days, 100 Nights."
posted by kirkaracha at 3:22 PM on July 29, 2016 [17 favorites]

Just posted this on the old thread, but... Trump just said if he loses, it's not his fault, it's "because you people get lazy, you don't vote."

I honestly think the thing that is going to kill the Republican Party isn't the Trump campaign, it's going to be how badly he and his followers react/act out after the hopefully obvious loss. We're 100 days out and he's already hinted at or explicitly started blaming his voters, the Republican Party, vote fraud.
posted by chris24 at 3:23 PM on July 29, 2016 [36 favorites]

I bought my Hillary merchandise last night. So stoked to step out in my Washingtonians for Hillary shirt with both my small children in Hillary logo duds.

I asked my husband if he wanted anything and he asked for "dog stuff" - our dogs still use their Obama bowl and collar from 2012. I pointed out to him that given the popular slurs used to refer to women it's not surprising that there isn't a Hillary dog bowl on offer through official channels. SIGH
posted by town of cats at 3:23 PM on July 29, 2016 [16 favorites]

The Reuters poll today is so weird. Trump goes up two points when Johnson and Stein are included? How the heck does that happen?
posted by Justinian at 3:30 PM on July 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

There's only 1557 more days until the 2020 U.S. election!!
posted by FallowKing at 3:30 PM on July 29, 2016 [23 favorites]

BREAKING: US judge in Wisconsin throws out range of restrictive election laws passed by GOP-led Legislature. --Associated Press on Twitter like five minutes ago.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:30 PM on July 29, 2016 [89 favorites]

Demonstrating he is not feeling stung by HRC's (and the President's and lots more people's) stinging remarks about his lack of temperament, Trump has explained that he has the "best temperament."

I'm sold, aren't you? Or do I mean conned?
posted by bearwife at 3:31 PM on July 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Speaking of striking down voting restrictions, the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals also struck down North Carolina's.
posted by bearwife at 3:33 PM on July 29, 2016 [34 favorites]

Trump goes up two points when Johnson and Stein are included? How the heck does that happen?

I'm guessing its people who are sane enough to never vote for Trump, but really don't like Hillary. Give them any other option and they take it.

This has been consistent for a while (both Johnson and Stein help Trump when included).
posted by thefoxgod at 3:34 PM on July 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

FallowKing: "There's only 1557 more days until the 2020 U.S. election!!"

I swear to the sea gods and the gods of the harvest I will stuff you in that wicker man.
posted by boo_radley at 3:34 PM on July 29, 2016 [94 favorites]

Clinton campaign also hacked.

Okay, I've been a fan and supporter of Clinton for years and will happily vote for her November, but the pic they chose to lead that article is hilarious. She has the perfect "What the fuck is this thing?" face staring into that monitor.
posted by Sangermaine at 3:35 PM on July 29, 2016 [6 favorites]

From the "conned" article: Bloomberg, an actual billionaire, and Trump, an alleged billionaire

Hah
posted by thefoxgod at 3:35 PM on July 29, 2016 [40 favorites]

bearwife is quicker on the draw than I am. I was just getting to that -- and how the ruling cites the way Republican legislators used racial voting data to target the black population with that law.

This is all some incredibly nasty shit.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:37 PM on July 29, 2016 [8 favorites]

Clinton campaign also hacked.

Ugh, I just felt queasy about them having my credit card info, then realized that's a bonus to these Russian and/or Trumpian pricks if folks feel reluctant to donate to Clintin online goddamnit the future suuuucccks sometimes.
posted by EatTheWeek at 3:37 PM on July 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

Wired: How the DNC pulled off that colossal balloon drop
posted by nathan_teske at 3:37 PM on July 29, 2016 [11 favorites]

Short AP article with a little more info on the Wisconsin ruling.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:38 PM on July 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm guessing its people who are sane enough to never vote for Trump, but really don't like Hillary. Give them any other option and they take it.

I think you misunderstand me. I don't mean that Trump gains two points on Clinton when Johnson and Stein are included, I mean his number goes up 2 points!

It's Clinton 40, Trump 35 in a two way race, and Clinton 37, Trump 37, Johnston 5, Stein 3 in a four way.
posted by Justinian at 3:40 PM on July 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

The great thing about all these voting rights rulings is that, if they take them to SCOTUS on appeal this year, the best they can hope for is a 4-4 split upholding the repeal. Better yet, some or even most of the rulings from the Circuits seem to be aimed at pushing Kennedy into a 5-3 decision.
posted by zombieflanders at 3:49 PM on July 29, 2016 [21 favorites]

Exactly. These decisions should hammer home how important the Supreme Court appointments are going to be. If one of the conservative Justices had been replaced with an Obama appointment for the Shelby decision, it would have gone the other way. Or if we were stuck in our current 4-4 situation, the Court of Appeals decision upholding the constitutionality of Section 4(b) and Section 5 of the Voting Rights Act would have stood.
posted by Sangermaine at 3:54 PM on July 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's Clinton 40, Trump 35 in a two way race, and Clinton 37, Trump 37, Johnston 5, Stein 3 in a four way.

Possibly just within the margin of error? Especially if its not the exact same people being asked (I can see benefits both ways --- if you ask the same people the question both ways, the first question biases the second some).
posted by thefoxgod at 3:58 PM on July 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oh yeah, just looked it up and they are completely separate polls, so 2% difference is well within usual margins of error.
posted by thefoxgod at 3:59 PM on July 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

That's weird, I assumed they asked the same people.
posted by Justinian at 4:05 PM on July 29, 2016

Stein is polling at 3%? That's an order of magnitude better than she did last time, that seems unlikely to be real.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 4:06 PM on July 29, 2016 [9 favorites]

There's only 1557 more days until the 2020 U.S. election!!

You shut your sloganhole, FallowKing!
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 4:06 PM on July 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

I want footage of Hillary's acceptance speech, interspersed with news footage about the three voting law rulings today. It should be edited in the style of the baptism scene from "The Godfather."
posted by drezdn at 4:09 PM on July 29, 2016 [30 favorites]

What can we do now? I'm really fired up and want to make this happen.

I just read about Ann Coulter mocking Khizr Khan as an angry Muslim man with a thick accent on the Washington Post and made the mistake of scrolling down. Who are all these horrible people?
posted by peacheater at 4:12 PM on July 29, 2016 [8 favorites]

From the previous thread: OK I have to turn off the livestream. Just hearing Trump's voice raises my blood pressure too much.

I can't tell you how much it sucked to be working out at the gym and every time I lifted my head, there he was yapping away. I didn't opt into the audio, obviously, but just the idea that he was on for at least 30 minutes on CNN with no break away shots, no reporters, nothing just him, was infuriating. Well just him and a big banner below reading: Trump: Clinton's speech was just average. They left that banner up all the time he was on and through whatever reporter stuff was going on afterward like it was the sacred holy text handed down from Mt. Sinai. Ugh. Of course Trump doesn't need to buy ads-- CNN just gave him uninterrupted time to say whatever the hell he wanted to for 30 minutes.

Don Pepino: I remember I objected in the 1990s to the constant harassment of her based on her hairbands and failure to bake cookies and suchlike, but then I couldn't understand why, as wife of the president, she was making policy.

Yes that was the established response back then, "Why should she be making policy, we didn't elect her!" Yes, the voters did not elect Hillary but they still expected her to work for free and be at their beck and call and do what she was told to do. Being FLOTUS is an "honor" and ladies were supposed to be grateful and do their duty. And of course no FLOTUS would ever be allowed to hold down an outside job even if they are, say, a lawyer specializing in civil rights.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:14 PM on July 29, 2016 [42 favorites]

Wired: How the DNC pulled off that colossal balloon drop

I can hear the discussion at the RNC for years hence: Mr. Chairman, we cannot allow a balloon drop gap.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 4:16 PM on July 29, 2016 [6 favorites]

What can we do now? I'm really fired up and want to make this happen.

Well, for my part I looked into the Democratic opponent to the Republican incumbent in my Congressional district and was absolutely appalled that clicking on "Donate" took me to an error page. More distressingly, the incumbent has outspent the Democrat by orders of magnitude and his most recent page update involved appearing with Bernie Sanders at the ONCenter months ago. And worst of all, my district is apparently one of 10 that has the slightest chance to turn blue in NYS this election season. DAMN YOU DEMOCRATS FOR BEING AWESOME AT SNATCHING DEFEAT FROM THE JAWS OF VICTORY.
posted by xyzzy at 4:17 PM on July 29, 2016 [14 favorites]

I just read about Ann Coulter mocking Khizr Khan as an angry Muslim man with a thick accent on the Washington Post and made the mistake of scrolling down. Who are all these horrible people?

People who can't stand that white males aged 18-49 are no longer a hegemony that the whole world answers to. The political machine having to answer to women, queers, minorities, foreigners, and other traditionally ignored groups means there's less time for them.
posted by Talez at 4:17 PM on July 29, 2016 [29 favorites]

Stein is polling at 3%? That's an order of magnitude better than she did last time, that seems unlikely to be real.

3rd party candidates tend to poll better than the election day results. Stein, for example, isn't on the ballot in half the states including Virginia, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Missouri, and Minnesota.
posted by Justinian at 4:17 PM on July 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

People who can't stand that white males aged 18-49 are no longer a hegemony that the whole world answers to. The political machine having to answer to women, queers, minorities, foreigners, and other traditionally ignored groups means there's less time for them.

When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression.
posted by stolyarova at 4:19 PM on July 29, 2016 [107 favorites]

Who are all these horrible people?

In a way, it's nice to know that some percentage of them could always be paid Russian disinfo trolls trying to destroy our faith in one another at this crucial time.

(i always thought I'd be more stoked to wake up in a Neal Stephenson novel)
posted by EatTheWeek at 4:19 PM on July 29, 2016 [30 favorites]

Also, it was mentioned in a previous thread that we should engage in subtle psychological warfare against Trump. Someone proposed sending him child-sized mittens, but those will only confirm his suspicion that he has Giant Hands.

We need to send him extra extra large gloves with the size tags removed for maximum psychic rustlement.
posted by stolyarova at 4:21 PM on July 29, 2016 [25 favorites]

I just read about Ann Coulter mocking Khizr Khan as an angry Muslim man with a thick accent on the Washington Post and made the mistake of scrolling down. Who are all these horrible people?

It was so odd -- when Khan was speaking, I was hearing my own immigrant Dad. He could have given that exact same speech. Totally different people, totally different experiences, totally different countries, but something about the universality of the immigrant experience, I guess. Dunno. But it was pretty powerful, hearing my Dad channeled through that guy. Plain dealer who didn't take grandstanding bullshit.
posted by Capt. Renault at 4:23 PM on July 29, 2016 [31 favorites]

I can hear the discussion at the RNC for years hence: Mr. Chairman, we cannot allow a balloon drop gap

Speaking of, did corb ever reveal what happened there?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:24 PM on July 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Clinton leads Trump by 6 points after Democratic confab: Reuters/Ipsos poll.

But, as America's Dad Tim Kaine would say, let's don't get cocky.
posted by stolyarova at 4:25 PM on July 29, 2016 [12 favorites]

Malia having a really good time.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:25 PM on July 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

I just read about Ann Coulter mocking Khizr Khan as an angry Muslim man with a thick accent on the Washington Post and made the mistake of scrolling down. Who are all these horrible people?

Coulter is a troll in the classic sense. She says outrageous shit to get a rise out of people. Just ignore her.
posted by Sangermaine at 4:25 PM on July 29, 2016 [11 favorites]

I was going through Trump's press conference from a couple of days ago and this particular part stood out to me:

TRUMP: No. He's not going to run for mayor. Oh, Don (ph)? He's not going to run for mayor. Don (ph) has no attention of running for mayor. But he did a great job the other night with his speech. Because he made a good speech, everyone says he should run for mayor. You know why? Because we have a Democratic mayor who's horrible, he's doing a horrible job, de Blasio. But Don (ph) is not going to run for -- he has no interest in running for mayor.

That sure comes across like Don Sr. is the decider in that family. Like perhaps Don, Jr. would be interested in running for office but his father needs him to do stuff. There is room for one leader in that family.

I wanted to say that I did get a good laugh out of your coverage of his rally from today. More and more this guy is coming across as completely out of his depth to an absurd level. Say what you will about her but at least Palin knew she was deficient and tried to study with flash cards. Trump doesn't bother to study anything because so far his abysmal ignorance hasn't been a drawback to his voter base. They are either just as ignorant or they don't care. Still I can't help but see him as a guy who won a ping pong game in his friend's basement and now thinks he is ready to play in the NBA finals.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:25 PM on July 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

But, as America's Dad Tim Kaine would say, let's don't get cocky.

Trump: TIM KAINE IS A HOMOPHOBE!
posted by Talez at 4:26 PM on July 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Next stop Willoughby!
posted by fairmettle at 4:26 PM on July 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

Clinton leads Trump by 6 points after Democratic confab: Reuters/Ipsos poll.

25 percent of people picked Neither/Other! We still have a lot of persuading to do.
posted by peacheater at 4:28 PM on July 29, 2016 [7 favorites]

Trump doesn't study because he's legitimately a malignant narcissist. He doesn't believe he can be improved upon.
posted by stolyarova at 4:29 PM on July 29, 2016 [13 favorites]

The Houston Chronicle has decided they don't need any more time to think about it. They endorsed Clinton today. Think this might be the earliest I've seen a newspaper endorsement in a presidential election.
posted by honestcoyote at 4:30 PM on July 29, 2016 [38 favorites]

WaPo endorsed HRC a couple days ago.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:33 PM on July 29, 2016 [14 favorites]

Does anyone have any resources/links to great write-ups about how important it is not only for Clinton to win, but to win *big*?

Basically looking for elaboration/expansion on some of peacheaters comments from a previous election thread:

Imagine if the Left said, you know what, we've got your back, we're definitely voting Democrat. The Democrats would have the freedom to pick more left-wing candidates because they could be sure that they would get that solid block of votes.

Also really enjoyed You Can't Tip a Buick sharing their activist friends comments:

instead, think of your vote as your choice about which terrain you would prefer to ‘do battle’ within

I know too way, way too many radical left "anti-$hillary" types who don't want to see Trump elected, but are protest-voting Stein or opting out because the democratic ticket will win our state anyway (which is true).

I'm looking for rebuttals to "voting your conscience" and protest-voting and opting out of the election - anything anyone can provide would be super helpful.
posted by windbox at 4:34 PM on July 29, 2016 [13 favorites]

That sure comes across like Don Sr. is the decider in that family. Like perhaps Don, Jr. would be interested in running for office but his father needs him to do stuff.

Sounds more like the narcissist won't abide having anyone else in the spot light.
posted by schadenfrau at 4:34 PM on July 29, 2016 [8 favorites]

Think this might be the earliest I've seen a newspaper endorsement in a presidential election.

The Washington Post was on it a week ago.
posted by dersins at 4:37 PM on July 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm looking for rebuttals to "voting your conscience" and protest-voting and opting out of the election - anything anyone can provide would be super helpful.

In general or in their situation?

In their situation: "Safe states don't stay safe if people don't vote."
posted by Sangermaine at 4:40 PM on July 29, 2016 [6 favorites]

I take that back. "The Post's View" doesn't count as their editorial endorsement, according to my better half.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:40 PM on July 29, 2016

The Post will obviously endorse Clinton but, yeah, they weren't going to do it before she was officially the nominee.
posted by Justinian at 4:42 PM on July 29, 2016

I'm looking for rebuttals to "voting your conscience" and protest-voting and opting out of the election - anything anyone can provide would be super helpful.

A little melodramatic but gets the job done.
posted by Talez at 4:43 PM on July 29, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm looking for rebuttals to "voting your conscience" and protest-voting and opting out of the election - anything anyone can provide would be super helpful.

Time. Proper grieving over Bernie — as they used to say, allow 4–6 weeks for delivery.
posted by argybarg at 4:44 PM on July 29, 2016 [10 favorites]

The Colorado Independent: Trump starts and ends Colorado Springs speech by ripping the local fire marshal

“That’s why we’re going to hell.”

We have thousands of people in a room next door,” he said. “We have thousands of people trying to get in and we have a fire marshal that says ‘No, we can’t allow more people in.'”

Trump said it was “so unfair” to those who couldn’t make it inside the 1,500-capacity auditorium.

“They won’t let them in, and the reason they won’t let them in is because they don’t know what the hell they’re doing, that’s why,” Trump said to loud cheers. “That’s why our country has — hey, maybe they’re a Hillary person. Could that be the answer? Probably.”

Trump called it a “disgraceful situation,” adding, “this is the kind of thing we have in federal government also, by the way, and then you wonder why we’re going to hell. That’s why we’re going to hell.” [snip]

Following the speech, Brett Lacey, the fire marshal in question, said in an interview he is a registered voter but declined to say whether he is a member of a political party.

“It doesn’t matter to me,” he said. “We’re just here to do the job.”

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:47 PM on July 29, 2016 [72 favorites]

I'm looking for rebuttals to "voting your conscience" and protest-voting and opting out of the election - anything anyone can provide would be super helpful.

Here is a rather wonky rundown of the grounds for Lesser Evil Voting.
posted by dis_integration at 4:50 PM on July 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

This particular fire marshal, by the way, has 36 years of experience in the fire service industry serving in the ranks of firefighter, paramedic and fire protection engineer up to his current position. But of course keeping people out of a rally makes him incompetent.

From his CSFD bio, he serves on national safety committees and has written several fire safety qualification manuals.
posted by mochapickle at 4:51 PM on July 29, 2016 [54 favorites]

CNN: Trump on 'lock her up' chant: 'I'm starting to agree'

"I've been saying let's just beat her on November 8th. But you know what, I'm starting to agree with you," Trump said.
The comments, which came in his first public appearance since Clinton ripped him in her speech at the Democratic National Convention Thursday night, marked an about-face for Trump, who in the last week has resisted joining in on his supporters' chants and instead urged them to channel their anger at the ballot box.

"You know it's interesting. Every time I mention her, everyone screams 'lock her up, lock her up.' They keep screaming. And you know what I do? I've been nice," Trump explained to his supporters in this evangelical bastion of Colorado Springs. "But after watching that performance last night -- such lies -- I don't have to be so nice anymore. I'm taking the gloves off."
There would be "no more Mr. Nice Guy" Trump vowed, ignoring his yearlong track record of pillorying Clinton on the campaign trail, including raising her husband's White House sex scandal and referring to her as a "nasty, mean enabler."

I think he is rattled, guys.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:52 PM on July 29, 2016 [36 favorites]

I prefer this argument for lesser evil voting.
posted by aspo at 4:52 PM on July 29, 2016 [13 favorites]

For those of you in solidly red states, or with radical friends in such places, please vote and convince your friends to vote Clinton and straight line Democrat in the election. The Republican governors and legislators will just have a chuckle over votes for Stein or write-ins for Bernie, but seeing Democrats get higher percentages than usual will put the fear of God into them. Plus, it will encourage others to show up and vote Democratic in future elections. I'm sure a lot of Democratic voters stay home because they don't feel like it matters much in places like Kansas.

I know the Democrats in red states are going to be even more "sellouts" than the national party. Lots of blue dogs still exist on the local level. But if those Democrats had some power here, we wouldn't have the Secretary of State committing outright voter fraud. PP would still have some degree of state funding. And the schools wouldn't be laying off teachers and facing yet another budget crisis.
posted by honestcoyote at 4:52 PM on July 29, 2016 [50 favorites]

the fire marshall thing is just.... Trump seems like he may be unravelling. The Russia hacking stuff, his barrage of angry tweets this morning, saying that he wanted to beat up the DNC speakers, and now this. I guess the only question is whether the right finally wakes up and steps back, or if they just continue to descend into madness with him. Based on the how things have gone so far, I reckon it'll be the latter.
posted by gatorae at 4:53 PM on July 29, 2016 [20 favorites]

Trump has unraveled into a near tie for the Presidency. I honestly don't think his voters care about anything. Literally anything.
posted by Justinian at 4:55 PM on July 29, 2016 [72 favorites]

I've been trying to explain to all my "concience vote" friends that even if they are in the safest of states, the total electoral tally matters. If Trump just barely loses to popular vote, we will be back in this exact place in four years. The most horrible elements of our society will see themselves as validated. Being a complete asshole will be viewed as a workable electoral strategy. Basically, if we don't absolutely crush Trump numerically today, we will have to face him or worse again tomorrow. Throwing your vote to Jill Stein will not help.
posted by phooky at 4:55 PM on July 29, 2016 [60 favorites]

Trump said during today's rally that when he said hit, he meant with words.
posted by mochapickle at 4:56 PM on July 29, 2016

I guess I'll add "fire safety" to "not rounding up our own citizens" and "keeping foreign powers from influencing our elections" on the list of lessons I thought we had learned but I guess not.
posted by ckape at 4:56 PM on July 29, 2016 [16 favorites]

And in lighter news...

The Mirror: Justin Bieber has SNUBBED Donald Trump's offer

Justin Bieber turned down an offer of £3.8million to perform a concert funded
by Donald Trump’s Republican Party.

The $5m offer caused manager Scooter Braun – who discovered Biebs as a youngster – to threaten to quit if he took part.

Promoters reportedly assured CAA, which represents the Sorry singer, 22, that he would not have to promote the party’s policies as his 45-minute set would be a “non-political” event, taking place close to the Cleveland venue where the Republican National Convention was held this month.

Well if they had $5 million to give to Bieber why couldn't they find anyone else? Surely somebody would have done it? Are there no broke-ass pop stars out there?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:56 PM on July 29, 2016 [5 favorites]

Fivethirtyeight had an interesting post about polling and predictions earlier: Why our model is bullish on trump for now
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 4:57 PM on July 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

The NYT had an interesting visual comparison of the two candidates acceptance speeches (sorry if already linked somewhere - I did a quick search on the site and the link didn't bring back any results - but maybe there is a better way to double check these things?)
posted by hilaryjade at 4:57 PM on July 29, 2016 [6 favorites]

HE'S GONNA PULL A MUSKIE! TRUMP/IBOGAINE 2016!
posted by vrakatar at 4:57 PM on July 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

Have the national media picked up the fire marshall thing yet? Yes, it's just another stupid thing that Trump said. But even the craziest Republicans I know understand why fire codes exist. When his rants veer from political issues to basic aspects of society maybe some potential voters will see just how nuts he really is.
posted by downtohisturtles at 4:57 PM on July 29, 2016 [11 favorites]

WaPo didn't endorse Clinton, they just said that no one should vote for Trump.
posted by waitingtoderail at 4:58 PM on July 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm looking for rebuttals to "voting your conscience" and protest-voting and opting out of the election - anything anyone can provide would be super helpful.

France 2002?
posted by the return of the thin white sock at 4:59 PM on July 29, 2016 [5 favorites]

Many Repubs and many white men hate Hillary, so my tactic with people like them is going to be "do you hate Hillary more than you love America? Cuz Trump will damage America."
posted by vrakatar at 5:00 PM on July 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

The Houston Chronicle may have endorsed Clinton but Trump has an endorsement from a bona fide terrorist. Terror suspect endorses Trump in phone call from federal prison
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:01 PM on July 29, 2016 [8 favorites]

For those of you in solidly red states, or with radical friends in such places, please vote and convince your friends to vote Clinton and straight line Democrat in the election.

I have begged my parents, who just became FL residents and live there 6+ months out of every year, to please, PLEASE inconvenience themselves and vote their brains out. They've seen news coverage of long lines due to FL's disenfranchisement efforts but I told them that this was far too important to let an annoying queue get in their way. I think I've reached them.
posted by xyzzy at 5:01 PM on July 29, 2016 [20 favorites]

Given the level of support Trump has touting a basically-fascist platform, even with every single fuckup he's committed, all it's gonna take is someone just as authoritarian but slightly-less-dim (like just BARELY more capable!) to swoop in and re-energize the same field of people.

Imagine somebody with Trump's megalomania and fascist impulses without Trump's total lack of an attention span and lack of discipline. Imagine that person with a national audience.
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:03 PM on July 29, 2016 [19 favorites]

yeah, i have zero faith that crushing trump this year will ensure that the same fascist demagoguery from someone slightly more capable doesn't pop up next presidential election, or in off-year elections either. that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to crush him - it just means to not get complacent after this election and think the job's done
posted by burgerrr at 5:05 PM on July 29, 2016 [19 favorites]

For those of you in solidly red states, or with radical friends in such places, please vote and convince your friends to vote Clinton and straight line Democrat in the election.

I am heading to Tennessee in October. My grandmother's neighbor has an enormous TRUMP TRAIN sign in front of his house, and I'm told it's hard to miss due to the size and all the blinking lights. This is a part of the state where it's not unusual to see confederate flags flying proudly. I'm gonna do what I can.
posted by mochapickle at 5:06 PM on July 29, 2016 [8 favorites]

Promoters reportedly assured CAA, which represents the Sorry singer,

I'm guessing that's supposed to be "Sony?" LOL either way.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:09 PM on July 29, 2016

yes, this makes sense:
The Republican governors and legislators will just have a chuckle over votes for Stein or write-ins for Bernie, but seeing Democrats get higher percentages than usual will put the fear of God into them.

Also, if nothing else, throwing a vote to the greens after the leftward move the democratic party has made would be bad behaviorism. The party may not be not all the way to where you want it to go, but it's moving in that direction. If you want the party to continue to move left, reward it for moving left. If it moves left and doesn't find a reward, it won't keep moving left and may move right again.
posted by Don Pepino at 5:10 PM on July 29, 2016 [69 favorites]

No, "Sorry" is one of his big songs. "Sorry singer" as in "the guy who sings 'Sorry'".
posted by thefoxgod at 5:11 PM on July 29, 2016 [5 favorites]

My grandmother's neighbor has an enormous TRUMP TRAIN sign in front of his house, and I'm told it's hard to miss due to the size and all the blinking lights.

Just cover the first T with a rainbow flag under the cover of night and see how long said neighbor takes to notice.
posted by Talez at 5:11 PM on July 29, 2016 [50 favorites]

I assumed he had a song called "Sorry" but either way that's bad phrasing.
posted by mmoncur at 5:11 PM on July 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Also, if nothing else, throwing a vote to the greens after the leftward move the democratic party has made would be bad behaviorism. The party may not be not all the way to where you want it to go, but it's moving in that direction. If you want the party to continue to move left, reward it for moving left. If it moves left and doesn't find a reward, it won't keep moving left and may move right again.

I'm seeing a lot of denial of this from my BoB acquaintances. I wish it were more baffling.
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:12 PM on July 29, 2016 [6 favorites]

One way you can summarize the reasons to be ok with lesser evil voting without saying "grow up" condesecndingly would be (an interpretation of the Halle/Chomsky piece):

Voting is not an action of moral approbation, but simply the marginal impact of one vote on the victory or loss of the two major parties. One's "conscience", insofar as it comes into play, should be directed towards the direct negative consequences of a far-right victory on oppressed peoples, on the environment, and so on. So if you have a "conscience", your moral duty is to above all prevent the victory of the right. What's more, if the right wins, those who protested the center and threw their votes away will be blamed, making it even harder in the future to advance leftist positions within the political system and find any audience for them in the mainstream. They will be dismissed as dangerous given their consequences in the past. Which, in a sense, will be a legitimate move on the part of the center. So not only do you aid and abet the victory of the right and are complicit in the moral disaster it will bring about, but you also harm any future progress for the left within the political system. I'm almost certain that Sanders would tell you the same thing.
posted by dis_integration at 5:13 PM on July 29, 2016 [60 favorites]

Not trying to silence anyone but I have to say that gaming out how the margin of victory may or may not affect the election in 2020 is giving me hives. Please let's get through this one (and preferably 3.9 years after) first.
posted by lazaruslong at 5:16 PM on July 29, 2016 [8 favorites]

Please let's get through this one (and preferably 3.9 years after) first.

Ignore off-year elections at your (and other's) peril.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:19 PM on July 29, 2016 [35 favorites]

“We have thousands of people trying to get in and we have a fire marshal that says ‘No, we can’t allow more people in.'”

To cheap to rent a larger hall? Sad!
posted by drezdn at 5:19 PM on July 29, 2016 [63 favorites]

I did not intend to suggest we go to sleep in between Presidential elections, but maybe I should have clarified that. I thought that would be obvious. Guess not, apologies.
posted by lazaruslong at 5:20 PM on July 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Naw! Really, Pope Guilty? But how they gonna deny? Look, take any chicken. Using this simple method of offering rewards for incremental progress, you can train that chicken to move from one side of its cage to the other side! Simple! Are the BoBs arguing that the democratic party is smarter than a chicken? Sad.
posted by Don Pepino at 5:21 PM on July 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

The thing that is going to kill the Republican Party isn't the Trump campaign, it's going to be how badly he and his followers react/act out after the hopefully obvious loss. We're 100 days out and he's already hinted at or explicitly started blaming his voters, the Republican Party, vote fraud...

Oh, yeah, when Trump loses, he's going to accept zero blame for it. Besides his voters, the Republican party, and vote fraud (Twain: but I repeat myself), you can also include:

The RNC television producers
Mike Pence
posted by box at 5:21 PM on July 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

For the couple-few people that know me, I never comment. But I had to try to say something.

So, rather against my will, I find myself in Southwest Virginia again. And guys, it's scary out here. I see handmade Trump signs in lawns when I go to take out the trash. Lots of Confederate flags, NRA stickers on pickup trucks, those stupid 'Don't Tread On Me' tea party license plates. And I can't find a place to volunteer for Hillary that isn't an hour's drive away.

I'm fucking scared, okay? I don't see this part of the state going blue. I'm trying to do what I can-- there's a diversity rally happening tomorrow that's only a half hour drive away, in a mid-size town with middle class aspirations, and I plan to be there. But it doesn't look half as organized as Obama's supporters did in this same region in 2008.

This is middle America, I guess. But for the love of god, don't get complacent. Volunteer. Organize. Donate if you can. There is a very real fight on our hands.
posted by dogheart at 5:23 PM on July 29, 2016 [114 favorites]

Who are all these horrible people?

they're real americans, just ask them
posted by pyramid termite at 5:23 PM on July 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm looking for some people in the campaigns' traveling press to follow on Twitter (or Twitter lists of them). Who are the best? Humor appreciated.
posted by acidic at 5:23 PM on July 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Can't he please just do something sufficiently illegal that he gets disqualified for being in prison? He tries nearly every damn day! Yesterday he committed treason, today he tried to violate fire codes. God above, what's it gonna take?
posted by Don Pepino at 5:24 PM on July 29, 2016 [12 favorites]

So Trump is doing his New Nuremberg rally in Colorado Springs? Home of the Air Force Academy and like a half dozen conservative mega churches? Wow he really is pushing into some hostile territory to convince the independents. Where is he going to do the next rally?
posted by vuron at 5:24 PM on July 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Wired: How the DNC pulled off that colossal balloon drop

Great article, thanks for sharing! I'm really surprised that both the RNC and DNC drops were done by the same company.
posted by joedan at 5:25 PM on July 29, 2016

He'll be in Denver tonight.
posted by mochapickle at 5:26 PM on July 29, 2016

Can't he please just do something sufficiently illegal that he gets disqualified for being in prison?

Not actually a disqualification. The only qualifications are age, natural - born- Ness, and residency.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:28 PM on July 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Not actually a disqualification. The only qualifications are age, natural - born- Ness, and residency.

You could totally run for prez from prison and then once you win you can pardon yourself, boom.
posted by dis_integration at 5:29 PM on July 29, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm looking for rebuttals to "voting your conscience" and protest-voting and opting out of the election - anything anyone can provide would be super helpful.

Noam fucking Chomsky on Democracy fucking Now on voting for Clinton in the general: "I don’t think there’s any other rational choice."
posted by [expletive deleted] at 5:30 PM on July 29, 2016 [61 favorites]

I find the Fire Marshall thing utterly chilling. I know it probably doesn't seem like much compared to all the horrible things Trump has said, but I think it reveals how far Trump is willing to go over something so small. This is just a guy trying to do his job and keep people safe in the most mundane way imaginable, and he will probably now be the target of harassment because Trump was annoyed.

Imagine what he would do to protestors or other people who opposed his policies.
posted by lunasol at 5:31 PM on July 29, 2016 [70 favorites]

If Beiber had standards, he'd take the money and pull a "Third Eye Blind".

If "Ethical Hackers" existed anywhere but fictional TV shows like Mr. Robot, Trumpy's IRS records (returns and audit reports) will become public knowledge well before the election. And there's no doubt in my mind EVERY year's audit will include a "not legal BUT..." statement more damning than Hillary's email report.

But please remember Donald Trump has been on a self-promotion binge for literally decades, even longer than the very-well-funded campaign to discredit Hillary Clinton. There's a need for Hillary to do more to "redefine herself" than she has done already. But more than any communication/advertising effort, a MASSIVE GetOutTheVote campaign is vital, to overcome Republican dirty tricks, to ensure victory AND run up the score and to provide 'coattails' that'll change the complexion of Congress and State Capitals. (And some large donor should pony up some money to defend EVERYONE under a Trump NDA who wants to spill the beans)
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:32 PM on July 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

Okay, this made me feel much, much better. Thank you, [expletive deleted].
posted by Don Pepino at 5:33 PM on July 29, 2016

You could totally run for prez from prison

Eugene Debs did it in 1920. Got slightly over 3% of the vote.
posted by waitingtoderail at 5:33 PM on July 29, 2016 [11 favorites]

You could totally run for prez from prison and then once you win you can pardon yourself, boom

Gene Debs did it. He didn't win, though, so no confirmation on the pardon part.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:34 PM on July 29, 2016 [5 favorites]

To cheap to rent a larger hall? Sad!

What does Trump look like, some kind of billionaire?
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:34 PM on July 29, 2016 [13 favorites]

Jinx
posted by Thorzdad at 5:34 PM on July 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Wow he really is pushing into some hostile territory

I'm here and I'm really hostile. We're not all horrible fuckwits.

I just screamed "fuck you" at NPR in the Walgreens parking lot when David Brooks was complaining that Hillary didn't establish an emotional connection during the speech because she was "too guarded." Like - she's not running for your mom in chief. If you didn't feel an emotional connection when the first women nominee spoke, maybe that's on you. You're going to cede power to some megalomaniac orangoutang because Hillary didn't make you feel all warm and fuzzy? What the fuck is wrong with you?

And guarded? No shit, she's guarded. Having a convention center full of people yelling for your incarceration would make anyone guarded.

So I just took the money that I would donate to NPR and sent it to Hillary's campaign instead.

And I apologize to the family whose kids were outside my car when I was cursing at the radio. That was irresponsible of me.

So yeah, hostile.
posted by bibliowench at 5:34 PM on July 29, 2016 [137 favorites]

I'm assuming you are in the 9th congressional district Dogheart.

If so I can totally see while Clinton and Kaine are barely present. It's not exactly friendly territory.

If Clinton wins VA and it's quite likely it will be on the strength of the coastal population centers. Appalachia needs to be addressed but Western Virginia and West Virginia are brutal areas for Democrats now.
posted by vuron at 5:35 PM on July 29, 2016 [8 favorites]

So, rather against my will, I find myself in Southwest Virginia again. And guys, it's scary out here. I see handmade Trump signs in lawns when I go to take out the trash. Lots of Confederate flags, NRA stickers on pickup trucks, those stupid 'Don't Tread On Me' tea party license plates. And I can't find a place to volunteer for Hillary that isn't an hour's drive away.

I'm fucking scared, okay? I don't see this part of the state going blue. I'm trying to do what I can-- there's a diversity rally happening tomorrow that's only a half hour drive away, in a mid-size town with middle class aspirations, and I plan to be there. But it doesn't look half as organized as Obama's supporters did in this same region in 2008.

Hopefully it's just that Clinton's campaign has made a different calculus about where to put their resources, which is one of the hardest and most fraught decisions in any campaign.

For instance, I expect to see the Clinton campaign put less resources into white rural areas than Obama did, as white voters become less "gettable" but also less crucial for Dems every four years. Not sure if that describes your area though.

I know that probably doesn't help much right now though!
posted by lunasol at 5:37 PM on July 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

Who are all these horrible people

White people who'v not seen the gains that some have, and are afraid that if yet another group comes to America the pie once more will be cut and their share will be even smaller.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 5:39 PM on July 29, 2016 [5 favorites]

Who are all these horrible people?

Republicans.

This is the general answer to that question that fits most situations, not just this specific situation.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 5:39 PM on July 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

The fire marshall article reads like the Onion. I mean, everything reads like the Onion now.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:40 PM on July 29, 2016 [42 favorites]

If so I can totally see while Clinton and Kaine are barely present. It's not exactly friendly territory.

Similarly, it's one of the benefits in living in one of the bluest districts in the country (where I thankfully like my nearly untouchable Congressman). No matter what Trump told the NYT recently, he's going to get absolutely crushed here so neither campaign will justify spending a significant amount of money on television or radio ads here.
posted by dances with hamsters at 5:40 PM on July 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

I had relatives go to Colorado College so yeah it's not all crazy people but Colorado Springs isn't exactly like trying to win people over in Boulder either.

Personally I think Colorado is extremely difficult for Trump to win based upon all the California expats flooding in but it isn't something that he can just give up on either.

But I have a hard time seeing any result other than a Clinton 325 victory right now.
posted by vuron at 5:40 PM on July 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Can't he please just do something sufficiently illegal that he gets disqualified for being in prison?

You don't want Trump getting disqualified anyway. Anybody replacing Trump would get enthusiastic support from all the people who usually vote Republican but were balking at Trump, and he'd also get the vote of anyone who was going to vote Trump just by dint of being the Republican in the race (unless the replacement was a minority of some sort, but come on, it's the Republicans). Believe it or not, at this point I think Trump as the Republican candidate is the best case scenario for the sane people in the country.
posted by IAmUnaware at 5:42 PM on July 29, 2016 [29 favorites]

I had relatives go to Colorado College so yeah it's not all crazy people but Colorado Springs isn't exactly like trying to win people over in Boulder either.

Hi, I live in Colorado Springs and I am not crazy. Disheartened by the rally up the street today, more like. These threads help.
posted by mochapickle at 5:42 PM on July 29, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm in the 5th, actually. But I really hope y'all are right. I just wish there was more I could do here.
posted by dogheart at 5:45 PM on July 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

You don't want Trump getting disqualified anyway.

This entirely depends on whether you think Trump is going to win. If you told me right now I could wave a magic wand and make, I dunno, Mitt Romney win the election in November I'd have to think long and hard about whether I'd do it. I don't want Romney to be President and he'd fuck up the Supreme Court for decades. But he wouldn't destroy everything like Trump might. So I don't know.
posted by Justinian at 5:46 PM on July 29, 2016 [10 favorites]

Donald Trump was running late as usual for his rally in Colorado and so this happened:

El Paso County Commissioner and U.S. Senate candidate Darryl Glenn unexpectedly took the stage Friday afternoon before Trump’s address at UCCS.

“Donald trump is going to lead us to victory as president,” Glenn told a crowd filling the Gallogly Events Center. “But there’s more. Hillary Clinton is not fit to be president… I am absolutely committed to making sure we remove her from her pantsuit and put her in a bright orange jump suit.”

“Mr. Trump will be here in a little bit,” he added before leaving the stage.

Another day, another man, calling for Clinton to be put in prison because she has dared to run for President.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:47 PM on July 29, 2016 [36 favorites]

Another day, another man, calling for Clinton to be put in prison because she has dared to run for President.

And stripped down, to boot.
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:48 PM on July 29, 2016 [16 favorites]

Hey. Y'all. New thread (i've still been following last night's and today's responses have been even better than they were last night, which I had not thought possible)!

Watch this.

I want to say "let's not even mention El Cheeto's name from here on out. We got this."
I know we can't. But: WE GOT THIS.

Kill it. Landslide. Get out. Do it.
posted by rp at 5:50 PM on July 29, 2016 [5 favorites]

Heh, I live in Texas.

On the down side we have 38 Electoral Vote that are guaranteed to be in the Trump's column in November despite having a large number of very large cities that are fairly liberal.

On the plus side other than fund raising stops there aren't a whole lot of reasons for Trump to actually come to Texas and even less chances he'll actually spend money here. So as long as I avoid the MSM constant coverage of Trump's daily temper tantrum I'm pretty safe from the worst of the mess.

I totally feel for you liberals that are living in red enclaves in Purple states that Trump desperately needs to come out in mass in November because you are quite likely to have to deal with the walking dumpster fire in your vicinity in the not so distant future.

Ohio I'm especially full of sorrow for you because you'll be ground zero for a ton of Cheetoh dust contaminating your environment.
posted by vuron at 5:52 PM on July 29, 2016 [5 favorites]

I am absolutely committed to making sure we remove her from her pantsuit

Someone come up with a zinger because I'm just drinking Whiskey while dancing the Tango and Foxtrot here.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:55 PM on July 29, 2016 [9 favorites]

Going with the he'll crack up theory- running for prez at this level is exhausting, there is a schedule, and your time is not your own. A spoiled turd like Donald will find that...agitating.
posted by vrakatar at 5:57 PM on July 29, 2016 [11 favorites]

You could totally run for prez from prison and then once you win you can pardon yourself, boom

At least one Representative has for reals been elected from his prison cell.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:58 PM on July 29, 2016

The process for formal classified briefings for both Trump and Clinton began today. Time has a good article covering the topic if you are interested. Turns out both Goldwater and Mondale chose not to receive the briefings. The President could interfere but he has chosen to be neutral, passing the responsibility over to James Clapper, Director of National Intelligence. This is probably the section of greatest interest:

While Priess said concerns about information leaks are reasonable given the controversies surrounding the current nominees, he thinks it’s unlikely a candidate would make that mistake: “As a general rule, it’s like Vegas.” While legal consequences are “extremely unlikely” in the event a candidate talks, he said there would still be “huge ramifications” politically.

“It makes little strategic sense, and it makes little political sense, to reveal what you hear in these briefings,” Priess said. “I would find it hard to believe—based on precedent and based on logic—that there is a dire national security threat of someone going out and repeating what they were told in a briefing.”

So it sounds like they threaten the candidates with serious consequences. Whether or not Trump cares is another story.

By the way the briefings are for the presidential and vice presidential candidates and "one or two trusted staffers."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:04 PM on July 29, 2016 [17 favorites]

These people who are trying to decide Stein or Johnson, who think how you vote is a moral purity badge, these are the people that you won't go out to eat with anymore after sitting through them trying to order food.
posted by bongo_x at 6:05 PM on July 29, 2016 [28 favorites]

I dunno about you but I only support win cannons, not lose ones.
posted by dis_integration at 6:05 PM on July 29, 2016 [14 favorites]

I am absolutely committed to making sure we remove her from her pantsuit and put her in a bright orange jump suit.

Oh my God. After all of the creepy shit that has happened so far, this is the thing that makes me feel sick.

Burn this rapey bullshit to the ground.
posted by Salieri at 6:05 PM on July 29, 2016 [63 favorites]

Hold up, Twitter, I think you popped it into reverse by accident.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 6:06 PM on July 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

So, rather against my will, I find myself in Southwest Virginia again. ... I'm fucking scared, okay?

Virginia hasn't been polled in a few weeks but there have not yet been *any* polls I can find that have had Trump in the lead.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:06 PM on July 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

Holy Moly. I don't usually watch MSNBC, but apparently I'm now addicted to election news, SO.

Anyway, Maddow just opened her show with the story about how Reagan opened his 1980 campaign by going to Philadelphia, MS, home of the Mississippi Burning murders, to speak out in favor of "state's rights"...

And she opened with that because Trump's son went there to campaign. A town with a population of 8,000 that also happens to be a giant bat signal to white supremacists.

Juuuuust in case it still wasn't clear.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:08 PM on July 29, 2016 [125 favorites]

I'm not familiar with lose cannons but then I remember the RNC's pathetic balloon drop. I'm pretty sure lose cannons were involved.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:10 PM on July 29, 2016 [7 favorites]

Oh yes, schadenfrau and while there, he made sure to say that confederate flags were all right in his book.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:12 PM on July 29, 2016 [5 favorites]

Burn this rapey bullshit to the ground.

I think we're gonna see the MRAs and red pillers get the same boost that the white supremacists got from Obama's presidency. The SPLC is going to be insanely busy, and all of us are...idek. I guess you just soldier on.

But seriously, fuck all of it.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:13 PM on July 29, 2016 [10 favorites]

This briefings thing would be a great opportunity for Obama to to pull some Tyrion shit and feed Trump some false Intel, see if it leaks to Putin.
posted by condour75 at 6:14 PM on July 29, 2016 [29 favorites]

Trump isn't even trying to be sneaky in courting the White Nationalist vote.

Short of getting an 88 or Celtic Cross Tattoo I'm not sure he could be more clear about the type of voters he's trying to GOTV.
posted by vuron at 6:14 PM on July 29, 2016 [9 favorites]

In defense of progressives accepting a compromise candidate, it might be helpful to point out that that's how Justin Trudeau got elected in Canada. Most of the progressives here would have loved to elect Jack Layton last year, but that just wasn't possible. So far, the guy we settled for is doing ok.
posted by peppermind at 6:15 PM on July 29, 2016 [20 favorites]

Going with the he'll crack up theory
How will we be able to see a difference from his normal conduct?

“It makes little strategic sense, and it makes little political sense, to reveal what you hear in these briefings,”
With the success he's had doing things that make NO political sense, why should that be a matter now? My fear is that he will simply LIE about being informed of things that confirm his warped worldview, the officials say that it's NOT what they told him, he says "PROVE IT" and they can't without committing a security breach themselves. But then, that would be a smarter move than anything he's done so far.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:15 PM on July 29, 2016 [8 favorites]

vuron, and yet the talking heads still won't call it. What will it take? Honest question.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:16 PM on July 29, 2016

Clinton should not be given national security briefings in that she is a lose cannon with extraordinarily bad judgement & insticts.

Oh hell. I was so focused on "lose cannon" that I totally missed insticts. He really should have chosen Tim Kaine-- that man can spell!

I feel drunk but I swear I haven't had a drop of bourbon yet.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:16 PM on July 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

To me, the real danger with the briefings is not Trump being told some super sensitive information that he blurts out publicly or anything, but rather that he starts blabbing about how he met with the CIA and they told him all this crazy stuff he's not allowed to talk about and it's all 100 times worse than you can possibly know he can't believe Obama and Hillary are keeping it a secret. And then we get months of "what are they hiding?" over nothing.
posted by zachlipton at 6:16 PM on July 29, 2016 [35 favorites]

Lots of Area 51 and Majestic 12 and Jade Helm security briefings. It would be hilarious to have Trump start talking all sorts of insane NWO conspiracy theories. At least it would distract him from his race baiting strategy for a few days.
posted by vuron at 6:16 PM on July 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

Hey, dogheart, the Clinton campaign is set up so you can phone bank to anywhere from anywhere if you've got your cell phone.

I don't even answer the phone sometimes when it's people I know or when I'm at work, but I phone banked for Obama. At least once or twice.
posted by crush-onastick at 6:18 PM on July 29, 2016 [6 favorites]

I think we're gonna see the MRAs and red pillers get the same boost that the white supremacists got from Obama's presidency.
If Hillary's election does for Women what Obama's did for Blacks...
...it may be time to start printing "Female Lives Matter" signs.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:19 PM on July 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Imagine if the Left said, you know what, we've got your back, we're definitely voting Democrat. The Democrats would have the freedom to pick more left-wing candidates because they could be sure that they would get that solid block of votes.

This is pretty much exactly the opposite of how I feel - and I'm emphasizing on the word "feel" because if you can give me a real argument that I'm wrong you have an opportunity to change my position- about the situation. It seems to me that the mainline Democrats do take it for granted that 90% of the "left Left" will vote for them in the end, because the Republicans are so far right - and that's why I consider it worthwhile for those of us in counties where it's not a tight race to demonstrate what sort of candidate actually gets us excited.
posted by atoxyl at 6:21 PM on July 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

How will we be able to see a difference from his normal conduct?

He'll drop f-bombs, throw shit, maybe literally, not show up for events, freak out at the debates and actually try to strangle Hillary, call for martial law, call for armed revolt if he loses (which he can also blame on Pence), run out of money, and I think he's already alienating donors.
posted by vrakatar at 6:24 PM on July 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm looking for rebuttals to "voting your conscience" and protest-voting and opting out of the election - anything anyone can provide would be super helpful

Thinking about what your vote means, or what it says about who you are, or what it expresses about you isn't a crazy thing to do because even in close states the probability that your state's electors will be decided by your vote is near zero.

So.

What does voting for Stein say about you? What values do you show the world when you vote for Stein? --YES I KNOW THESE ARGUMENTS ARE VERY STRONGLY WORDED AND REALLY KINDA UNFAIR BUT I AM NOT ARGUING WITH YOU --

Stein supports the anti-vaxxers. So you're saying that your values are thousands to millions of children dying from easily preventable diseases?

Stein supports the homeopathy industry, which has been repeatedly found to be outright lying about its ingredients. So I guess your values are lying to people in support of quack therapies, and not even selling them the quack remedies they think they're buying?

Stein sided with the racist UKIP and supported Brexit. So you're saying her explicit support for racist parties is a better match for your values than Clinton?

Oh, you're worried about integrity and honesty? After applauding the racist UKIP's win in Britain, she deleted her text to pretend she hadn't said that. I guess that's the honesty and integrity you want to show too?

And so on. I'm too lazy to do this myself but she's enough of a doofus that she will have said some variety of dumb things and supported some variety of awful causes. Point them out. The payoff is that they will probably admit that Stein holds or has stated any number of positions they don't agree with... at which point you can point out that if they're going to cast an impure vote that they only kinda partly support, maybe they should cast it in a way that might have some minimal effect.

Intentional nonvoters are easier. So your values say that Trump isn't worth fighting? You want to say that here was this existential threat to American democracy and, when you looked at him and at your values you concluded "Meh. Whatever." Here is this weapons grade asshole, and what your non-vote says is that you're okay with him.

This is even easier for Democrats or left-leaning people thinking about Johnson. The Libertarians support the repeal of the Civil Rights Act, the Fair Housing Act, minimum wage laws, Medicare, and Social Security. Are those your values, bud?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:24 PM on July 29, 2016 [80 favorites]

As I mentioned in one of the DNC threads, Trump's unwillingness to sleep in a bed he doesn't own (either at one of his homes or on his plane) may limit the states he visits, and his lack of surrogates beyond Pence and a few others may take a physical and mental toll quickly, given how the entire top tier of the Dems will be on the campaign trail sharing the load for the Clinton/Kaine ticket. Even the fanciest private plane has to recirculate germy air.

(Also, if the perambulating winter squash is going to complain about every venue in every small town, that's not going to come across so well in local media.)

I hope someone can knock together an online map of campaign stops and states visited for all the candidates and their surrogates. If not, I may have to put one together myself.
posted by holgate at 6:26 PM on July 29, 2016 [13 favorites]

The problem is that Hillary has adopted quite a bit of Bernie's platform, which is something to be celebrated. What are a lot of them doing? Spitting in her face. So good luck getting the party to forget this in the future if Hillary loses. If the far left are going to vote Green no matter what, then the Democrats will say fuck it and court the center.
posted by gatorae at 6:26 PM on July 29, 2016 [29 favorites]

From the previous thread:

In his businesses and presidential campaign, Trump requires nearly everyone to sign legally binding nondisclosure agreements prohibiting them from releasing any confidential or disparaging information about the real estate mogul, his family or his companies. Those subject to confidentiality agreements include senior advisers like Lewandowski, campaign volunteers and even a maker of his famous “Make America Great Again” hats.

The practice is also something the presumptive Republican nominee says he would consider requiring in the White House, raising concerns about government transparency and freedom of information laws.

Obama's Executive Order 13526 Section 1.7 (a) (1) and (2) bans classification of documents simply to "conceal violations of law, inefficiency, or administrative error" or "prevent embarrassment to a person, organization, or agency"; as do all of the Classified National Security Information orders of the preceding presidents that WikiSource has, going back at least to Nixon. But maybe we would see that part quietly disappear from a President Trump's version of the order.
posted by XMLicious at 6:27 PM on July 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

>Hillary Clinton should not be given national security briefings in that she is a lose cannon with extraordinarily bad judgement & insticts.

That's also not how you use "in that". "Because" would have worked fine, but he probably thought "in that" sounded smarter. I am reminded of Homer Simpson.
posted by Sing Or Swim at 6:28 PM on July 29, 2016 [6 favorites]

Every time I see BoBs in these threads I think of Outkast.
posted by dw at 6:29 PM on July 29, 2016 [10 favorites]

The problem is that Hillary has adopted quite a bit of Bernie's platform, which is something to be celebrated. What are a lot of them doing? Spitting in her face. So good luck getting the party to forget this in the future if Hillary loses. If the far left are going to vote Green no matter what, then the Democrats will say fuck it and court the center.

I keep saying that if you're already not voting for somebody, you can't threaten them with the withholding of your vote.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:30 PM on July 29, 2016 [8 favorites]

Mark Cuban on Twitter: Trump's biggest debate fear is that HillaryClinton will make up an acronym for a non-existant agency & DJT will respond thinking it's real
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:30 PM on July 29, 2016 [21 favorites]

Hillary Clinton should not be given national security briefings in that she is a lose cannon with extraordinarily bad judgement & insticts.

No way Trump wrote that, it doesn't say "Crooked."
posted by waitingtoderail at 6:30 PM on July 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

Another thread?! Okey dokey...
posted by homunculus at 6:30 PM on July 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Hillary Clinton Embraced Reaganism Last Night, Then She Stuck A Knife In It
posted by homunculus at 6:32 PM on July 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Make Threads Long Again!
posted by Yowser at 6:32 PM on July 29, 2016 [23 favorites]

This is even easier for Democrats or left-leaning people thinking about Johnson. The Libertarians support the repeal of the Civil Rights Act, the Fair Housing Act, minimum wage laws, Medicare, and Social Security. Are those your values, bud?

Yep. This is the problem with representative democracy. We're down to the two. Which one represents you better?
posted by rp at 6:32 PM on July 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

My general thoughts on the next 100 days of this election...

1. As mentioned above, Trump is not ready for the spotlight and grind of the general election. By not really taking the primaries seriously he did not prepare himself for what's to come. Everyone has been looking for the one big thing that will do him in (surely this...), but I think it's going to be more of a death by 1000 cuts. He will exhaust himself and slowly melt down in a big way before November.

2. We will see the limits of his base. They may be angry and energized, but we've seen this before. Palin's angry mobs made for good news footage, but her negatives ended up being the real story in the end. The Tea Party was angry and energized and did lots of damage in local races (thanks in part to gerrymandering, etc.) but Obama still managed to win re-election.

3. For every vote clinton loses on the left, Trump loses 2 from the GOP establishment. That's going to hurt more. For all of Bernie's success in the primary, we see how not having the full support of your party's establishment can hurt a campaign. From fundraising to gotv to messaging, the existing infrastructure of the party is more important in the general than in the primary. One thing I learned watching Obama in '08 is that winning the news cycle every week doesn't win elections. You need the machine. Also, I'd bet a crisp dollar bill that Trump doesn't fully understand how the electoral college works, and will blow off at least one swing state that he could have won.

4. The "first woman president" narrative will gain momentum as we get closer to November. If Hillary Clinton can avoid scoring any own-goals, this will become a bigger story than the GOP implosion. A lot of it will be in the form of "Is America ready for a woman President?" concern trolling, but it shifts the narrative nonetheless)

5. This is my longshot prediction. A high profile Republican will endorse Clinton at the last minute. My money's on Laura Bush.

This is all oversimplified, but it's where my optimism for the outcome of this election is coming from.
posted by billyfleetwood at 6:33 PM on July 29, 2016 [57 favorites]

Ya know, maybe the GOP knew Hillary pretty much had this one, and decided to throw this election and purge the fringe at the same time.

Maybe? Yeah?
posted by Mooski at 6:35 PM on July 29, 2016 [5 favorites]

Bush's crazification factor was 27%. I wonder what Trump's will turn out to be.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:37 PM on July 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

I like your optimism.
posted by rp at 6:37 PM on July 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Talk about your lose cannons....

He has gone off message again. Trump open to local fracking bans

DENVER - Donald Trump departed from the traditional Republican stance on fracking Friday when he told 9NEWS he supports local control.

“Well I’m in favor of fracking, but I think that voters should have a big say in it,” Trump said. “I mean there are some areas maybe that don’t want to have fracking."

"if a municipality or state wants to ban fracking, I can understand that."

I give it...two days before he reverses himself. "I can understand that a municipality might not want to have fracking but I believe we need to leave that up to the state. The state should totally decide."<---my made up quote, not to be confused with the real Trump quote to come.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:38 PM on July 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Calling it now for Hillary, with the decision being final by midnight of election night.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:43 PM on July 29, 2016 [18 favorites]

This is pretty much exactly the opposite of how I feel - and I'm emphasizing on the word "feel" because if you can give me a real argument that I'm wrong you have an opportunity to change my position- about the situation. It seems to me that the mainline Democrats do take it for granted that 90% of the "left Left" will vote for them in the end, because the Republicans are so far right - and that's why I consider it worthwhile for those of us in counties where it's not a tight race to demonstrate what sort of candidate actually gets us excited

When do you think the country, as a whole, was more liberal: 1960 or 1964? 1968 or 1976? 1980 or 1988? 1992 or 2000? 2004 or 2016? Politics are a ratchet. Victories get more people on your side. The far left will always be taken for granted. By definition. But if the far left helps to get more candidates elected, those politicians will move the country left - the center becomes more liberal and, consequently, the far left grows and moves even further left. Politics is a tug of war. If you're not winning, you're losing.

Look at Hillary Clinton. In 2008, she could have convinced her supporters that they were robbed. Maybe enough of them would have believed her and Obama could have lost. And they would have run around shouting about how we shouldn't blame them, it was our fault for picking Obama. Do you think Democrats would have rewarded her with the nomination this time around? It would have been political suicide. Instead, she threw her support wholeheartedly behind the candidate, immediately gained all of Obama's supporters' respect, as well as gaining the future support of the entire Democratic apparatus.

Bernie sees that, too. Do you think Democrats are sitting around right now with deep respect for Bernie supporters? What happened at the convention was, frankly, embarrassing. Nobody looked at the Busters as people you'd want to work with. They didn't gain anybody's support. They made people angry and they pissed off the establishment. That was their goal. But it's not going to get them anywhere politically. Do you think Nader gained influence after 2000?
posted by one_bean at 6:44 PM on July 29, 2016 [55 favorites]

the trump endorsement train keeps rolling along! recent highlights:
Robert Mugabe
Kim Jong-Un
Charles Manson
David Duke
Anyone want to start a pool for his next endorsement?
posted by murphy slaw at 6:50 PM on July 29, 2016 [11 favorites]

Fundamentally I think there are a bunch of very angry, very worried but also generally well meaning people on the left. Unfortunately I think that there isn't a real solid appreciation of the dynamics of how modern political parties actually work.

Like I said in a previous thread (like a million threads ago it feels like) modern politics relies on two currencies: money power and people power.

Money is pretty easy to understand, money buys infrastructure and staff and ads and all the stuff modern campaigns need. The age of being able to campaign by printing your own broadsheet have passed us by which is why candidates like Vermin Supreme struggle to get traction despite having a dynamite set of policies.

People power is how many people you can reliably bring to the polls. One time influxes of voters are important but fundamentally if you want to get a lot of time and influence you need to be able to deliver voters time after time.

All too often progressives struggle to form cohesive and consistent coalitions. We turn out for national elections every 4 years and then somehow disappear during midterms and don't even get me started on state and local elections. Until progressives can reliably deliver votes every election I feel like we will continue to be marginalized because we can't be relied on when the going gets tough.

Combined with the proliferation of absolutist stances, and the tendency for a lot of progressives to authoritatively say "this is the number one priority", the tendency for some progressives to be really bad on intersectionality and prone towards denying their own privilege and I can totally understand why politicians tend to not rely on us.

Primaries are when you express your preferences but if you want long term influence you suck it up and vote in the general election instead of threatening to vote third party or abstain. I think that's what irritated a ton of people about the BoBs. It wasn't because we disagreed with the policies that many of the BoBs want but that they were willing to engage in political hostage taking because their demands weren't being respected.
posted by vuron at 6:52 PM on July 29, 2016 [26 favorites]

OFFS. Trump: Clinton should have congratulated me for making history

“I was curious to see whether she’d do a class act and not mention my name,” the Republican nominee said at a rally with supporters in Colorado. “Or mention it with respect, like, say, ‘I’d like to congratulate my Republican opponent for having done something that nobody has ever done in the history of politics in this nation.’”“See, I thought she might do something like that. I thought she'd give me a big fat beautiful congratulations. If she did that, would that have been cool? Would that have been great?,” Trump said.

See guys, it is Trump who is the one making history here. I don't know what we were thinking. Ladies can be President any day of the week but Trump, he has done something that nobody has ever done in political history. Although I must admit to be a little baffled as to what that something might be. Never mind. He is the special one. She is just average. Got that?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:53 PM on July 29, 2016 [60 favorites]

Sorry if this was already in the other thread, but I can't get it to load anymore to see. It seems pretty clear now that yes, indeed, the "very little guy" at the DNC that Trump was particularly mad at was Michael Bloomberg:

"I was going to hit one guy in particular, a very little guy," Trump said to laughs at a campaign rally in Davenport, Iowa. "I was going to hit this guy so hard his head would spin, he wouldn't know what the hell happened."

That was far too vague, so he followed up with a tweet:
"Little" Michael Bloomberg, who never had the guts to run for president, knows nothing about me. His last term as Mayor was a disaster!
posted by gatorae at 6:55 PM on July 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Every time I see BoBs in these threads I think of Outkast .

I thought I was the only one!
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 6:58 PM on July 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

Well as far as I know he's the first orange person to be the nominee of a major Party.

I assume of course but it's entirely possible that Taft rocked the spray on tan as well.
posted by vuron at 6:58 PM on July 29, 2016 [5 favorites]

As I mentioned in one of the DNC threads, Trump's unwillingness to sleep in a bed he doesn't own (either at one of his homes or on his plane) may limit the states he visits

Is he freaked out about being in a hotel bed with bedbugs or whatever? Seen one too many news reports about hotels not really being clean?

More importantly: does anyone doubt that his household staff regularly spits in his coffee & takes every other small bit of revenge they possibly can on this dude?
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:59 PM on July 29, 2016 [7 favorites]

Why did he select 'Little' instead of the more on-the-nose 'Short'?

I mean, we all know we're talking about dicks.
posted by box at 7:00 PM on July 29, 2016

Wasn't Bloomberg the stop-and-frisk & I'll-spoil-as-a-3rd-party-candidate-if-that-socialist-wins guy?

I see him and Trump fighting and it's like, "Yes, two dying stars tearing each other apart in a fantastic show of light and heat for all the galaxy to enjoy!"
posted by Slackermagee at 7:03 PM on July 29, 2016 [7 favorites]

many of the BoBs want but that they were willing to engage in political hostage taking because their demands weren't being respected.

Except a tremendous number of their demands were met! They even got to have a little witchberning with DWS getting sent home and abandoned to fight off her primary challenger alone. In the case of the debt-free college plan, Clinton and Sanders even managed to improve on what they were asking for. And after all of that, they still wore tape over their mouths and heckled through it. They still wore those stupid fucking yellow shirts and tried to interrupt a moment 240 years in the making. I feel like all their demands were a smokescreen for what they really wanted: Hillary to drop out and let Bernie have the nomination, because his smaller coalition of voters just wants it more. Bernie became such a cult figure to this last sliver of deadenders that they won't even listen to the actual man anymore.

I'm so annoyed with the Buster antics that I shaved my damn beard off this morning. I kept thinking of all those shots of sanctimonious white boys with their fists in their air and wanted to look a little bit less like them and their fucking big important deep ethical thoughts. Gotta wait a paycheck before ordering another Hillary shirt and even then, I can't wear it daily.
posted by EatTheWeek at 7:04 PM on July 29, 2016 [80 favorites]

>I don't see this part of the state going blue

http://files.umwblogs.org/blogs.dir/3752/files/2012/11/2012-results-Cartogram.png

^ no worries, mate
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 7:05 PM on July 29, 2016 [5 favorites]

I assume of course but it's entirely possible that Taft rocked the spray on tan as well.

Sorry to rain on your parade, vuron. but if Taft wanted to be orange he would have had to powder it on or possibly paint it on. I'm pretty sure spray cans had not been invented yet although I am too lazy to look it up. Also I am off to bed to watch West Wing with a glass of Bourbon.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:05 PM on July 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Out of curiosity, other than debunking obvious slurs over the internet, is there anything I'm legally allowed to do as a British National to help the Clinton campaign.
posted by Francis at 7:07 PM on July 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

If Hillary has some time to go on the offense I would totally suggest in going down to Hotlanta and getting a bunch of Hip-Hop musicians to show up in force.

Yeah it would probably be seen as pandering but can you imagine Outkast and Janelle Monae and India Arie and all the other talented people from Atlanta.

It would be awesome and it would completely humiliate the Donald's parade of z-list star power.
posted by vuron at 7:08 PM on July 29, 2016 [13 favorites]

Does voting third party or abstaining from voting in order to punish the center-left party ever actually work? You hear a lot of people talking about it as a strategy but I've never seen any evidence that the Dems or any other liberal party cares.

I mean, people voted for Nader in 2000, so after careful consideration in 2004, the Democrats obviously shifted leftward to bring those voters back, right? Oh wait, John Kerry was nominated in a relative landslide on a fairly centrist platform. Kerry is certainly toward the left (DW-NOMINATE of -0.373, a nudge to the right of Hillary Clinton), but his campaign was hardly pandering to former Nader voters. So that's not a good indication that progressive voters abandoning the Democratic Party magically moves it leftward.

Some of the main issues in that election were Iraq and how much we were going to cut taxes, while some of the main issues in this election are how many people we're going to deport and how many Americans we're going to send to college.
posted by zachlipton at 7:10 PM on July 29, 2016 [11 favorites]

Out of curiosity, other than debunking obvious slurs over the internet, is there anything I'm legally allowed to do as a British National to help the Clinton campaign.

You can come to the US and volunteer, but that seems like a pretty big commitment!

(We had several non-US-citizens volunteer on my team in 2012. I was like "is that legal?", but it turns out that it totally is. You have to be a citizen or permanent resident to donate to a campaign, but it's fine for anyone to volunteer.)
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:12 PM on July 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

Does voting third party or abstaining from voting in order to punish the center-left party ever actually work?

It clearly doesn't work but that doesn't stop people from trying it over and over. You'd think people would be able to learn from other's mistakes.
posted by Justinian at 7:13 PM on July 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

You have to be a citizen or permanent resident to donate to a campaign...

Unless you're a MP on one of the Trump campaign's fundraising lists.
posted by nathan_teske at 7:16 PM on July 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

I choose to go with the Antonio Saboto Jr method of engaging your "facts" SLoG. You say that spray on tans weren't around in the 1900s but I choose to disbelieve that. You can probably tell me all sorts of things about Taft like telling me that he didn't go on to star in Cocoon and a whole series of commercials about Quaker Oats but in my heart I know that he did and your so called "facts" aren't going to convince me otherwise. Because I and the rest of the Real Americans feel like your facts are just liberal propaganda meant to mislead to American public about how awesome Taft really was. I mean he wouldn't have been the hand picked successor of Teddy Roosevelt if he wasn't awesome.
posted by vuron at 7:19 PM on July 29, 2016 [27 favorites]

Voter restrictions overturned, rulings PDFs.
Wisconsin - Peterson ruling: One Wisconsin Inc et al v. Thomsen et al (7-29-16, 119 pgs)

Beginning with the in-person absentee provisions, there is evidence that the state legislature passed these laws, at least in part, to specifically address what it perceived to be a problem with larger municipalities, like Milwaukee. Legislators were concerned that these municipalities offered residents more opportunities to vote than smaller municipalities offered. For example, during a floor session in the state senate, proponents of limiting the window for in-person absentee voting specifically referred to nipping Milwaukee and Madison’s practices “before too many other cities get on board.” PX022, at 6. Even if the state was not directly responsible for creating the socioeconomic disparities that exist in Milwaukee and other larger cities, the in-person absentee provisions impose burdens because of those disparities. For these reasons, the court concludes that evidence of discrimination in Milwaukee is relevant to the causation element of plaintiffs’ Voting Rights Act claims.

Wisconsin - Adelman ruling: Ruthelle Frank et al v. Walker (7-19-16, 44 pgs)

I must create a safety net to prevent those who cannot obtain ID with reasonable effort from losing the right to vote. The defendants have not proposed their own solution to this problem, and thus the only potential remedy is the plaintiffs’ affidavit procedure. Even if that approach is not ideal, it is better than leaving the plaintiffs with no relief at all.

North Carolina - 4th Circuit ruling: NC State Conference of NAACP & Does, et al, v McRory et al (7-29-16, 83 pgs)

In response to claims that intentional racial discrimination animated its action, the State offered only meager justifications. Although the new provisions target African Americans with almost surgical precision, they constitute inapt remedies for the problems assertedly justifying them and, in fact, impose cures for problems that did not exist. Thus the asserted justifications cannot and do not conceal the State’s true motivation.

posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:20 PM on July 29, 2016 [34 favorites]

Lighter note if required: I've been seeing an old comedy from 1964 resurfacing, about the first First Man (Fred MacMurray), called Kisses For My President. It looks pretty terrible but the first few moments are very handsome in an early 60s way and I hope to catch it on TCM, maybe on Inauguration Day.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:21 PM on July 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trump's unwillingness to sleep in a bed he doesn't own (either at one of his homes or on his plane)

Wait. What??

Trump flies home every night to NYC or to Mar-a-lago. I dunno what he did when he was out in CA because it would be insane to fly cross country to sleep every night but maybe he has some property on the west coast.

If he's president i really doubt he'll spend much time in the white house.
posted by dis_integration at 7:22 PM on July 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Khizr and Ghazala Khan are on Lawrence O'Donnell's show right now. Mr. Khan said that last night's speech was only half the speech he'd written and he just finished it on the show, calling out Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan for not standing up for principle and repudiating Donald Trump. He believes that if Trump is elected it will lead to a constitutional crisis.
posted by homunculus at 7:23 PM on July 29, 2016 [42 favorites]

Politico: How the father of slain Muslim soldier shamed Donald Trump, upstaged Hillary Clinton—and did it without notes.

Khan, a 66-year-old immigration lawyer from Charlottesville, told the story of his son’s death in combat in Iraq, but he turned that elegy into a viral rebuke of Donald Trump: “You have sacrificed nothing!”

And Khan delivered his broadside without using the teleprompter. There was nothing to put on it, because he had written nothing down.

posted by Existential Dread at 7:23 PM on July 29, 2016 [40 favorites]

Romney got egg on his face for being snide about a local bakery's cookies, but Trump can refuse the finest accommodation at any campaign stop, and the people who love him never stop loving. Such is charisma.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:25 PM on July 29, 2016 [6 favorites]

For example, during a floor session in the state senate, proponents of limiting the window for in-person absentee voting specifically referred to nipping Milwaukee and Madison’s practices “before too many other cities get on board.” PX022, at 6.

Representatives literally stood up on the floor of the Wisconsin State Senate and explained that they had to make it more difficult to vote because some cities had already done it and they needed to put a stop to it before anybody else thought it was a good idea. That actually happened here in this decade.
posted by zachlipton at 7:25 PM on July 29, 2016 [11 favorites]

Were they immigrants unafraid to step in?

I bet they got the job done.
posted by zachlipton at 7:26 PM on July 29, 2016 [16 favorites]

Is he freaked out about being in a hotel bed with bedbugs or whatever? Seen one too many news reports about hotels not really being clean?

I've no idea: it's just on record that he's basically commuted between campaign stops and his various homes during the campaign. He was in Florida on Wednesday and I bet once his Denver rally's over he'll fly to to Los Angeles and stay in his Beverly Hills mansion. (His planes are not publicly trackable right now, which is understandable for security reasons.)

Pence is out on his own, covering bits of the country that aren't an easy flight away from a Trump home. But he seems to be doing stops that would allow him to stay overnight in Trump hotels, which is a nice way to bill yourself for campaign expenses.
posted by holgate at 7:27 PM on July 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

And Khan delivered his broadside without using the teleprompter. There was nothing to put on it, because he had written nothing down.

24 hours later that is still the most memorable and powerful part of the DNC for me. His humanity shone like a beacon and I will never forget his speech.
posted by vac2003 at 7:28 PM on July 29, 2016 [45 favorites]

You know I'm pretty sure that when your Muslim son dies protecting the lives of his fellow soldiers and then a politician comes forth and starts slamming all Muslims once the shock of this egregious offense wears off I'm pretty sure you don't need a teleprompter to remember what you want to say.

On the other hand I'm pretty sure I would say something much harsher than Biden's "Malarkey!" but fortunately Khizr Khan has much more grace than I have.
posted by vuron at 7:30 PM on July 29, 2016 [25 favorites]

I suppose it's like a variation on the Travelling Salesman Problem: come up with a campaign schedule that allows Trump to visit battleground states and still fly home for bedtime.

(I hope an environmental group can crunch the personal carbon footprints of each set of candidates.)
posted by holgate at 7:33 PM on July 29, 2016 [5 favorites]

I haven't finished the last DNC thread, and I haven't read the comments here, but I need to say, I'm With Her. I said it out loud on Facebook tonight. My favorite reply was from my conservative Catholic friend who said I won't vote for her, but I hope she wins. She's voting for Johnson, as I hope my parents do, because a vote for Johnson is a vote against Trump. But I'm in, and I feel good about it. The DNC reeled me in, hook, line, and sinker.
posted by Ruki at 7:38 PM on July 29, 2016 [17 favorites]

It seems to me that the mainline Democrats do take it for granted that 90% of the "left Left" will vote for them in the end...

Given that I don't think this has happened once in the past 36 years, why would they take it for granted?
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 7:41 PM on July 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

I cannot for the life of me figure out how to reply to a previous MeFi comment, but to dogheart in SW VA, I'd like to hope that those of us in Loudoun, Fairfax, and Arlington counties have your back in this election.
posted by xiix at 7:46 PM on July 29, 2016 [10 favorites]

The problem is that Hillary has adopted quite a bit of Bernie's platform, which is something to be celebrated. What are a lot of them doing? Spitting in her face.

The claims of wanting real change and wanting to be heard are ringing false. Martyrdom is pretty seductive.

I keep saying that if you're already not voting for somebody, you can't threaten them with the withholding of your vote.

Like the customer stories where they say "I'm not shopping here ever again" and the manager says "you've never shopped here before".
posted by bongo_x at 7:47 PM on July 29, 2016 [14 favorites]

> "Justin Bieber turned down an offer of £3.8million to perform a concert funded by Donald Trump’s Republican Party. "

Why is Trump attempting to give all this money and a job to a foreign worker?
posted by Mitheral at 7:48 PM on July 29, 2016 [20 favorites]

Much of Trump's music wasn't American. Why stop now?
posted by Yowser at 7:52 PM on July 29, 2016

trump thinks he's being hip and with-it in the eyes of the young by trying to get bieber to play for him

do we really trust a man with such poor judgment to deal with people like putin?
posted by pyramid termite at 7:53 PM on July 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

what freaks me out is that as an id-driven anti-establishment campaign, trump can cast any gaffe as "unfiltered authenticity" and any show of competence by Clinton as "head in the clouds elitism" and disaffected voters will fall for it
posted by murphy slaw at 7:56 PM on July 29, 2016 [6 favorites]

prediction - if trump is elected, his OWN party will end up impeaching and convicting him
posted by pyramid termite at 7:57 PM on July 29, 2016 [11 favorites]

Like the customer stories where they say "I'm not shopping here ever again" and the manager says "you've never shopped here before".
"We brought new voters to the party"
"Who we didn't need to win the last two Presidential elections. So?"
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:58 PM on July 29, 2016

prediction - if trump is elected, his OWN party will end up impeaching and convicting him

I hope he's thinking about this.
posted by bongo_x at 8:01 PM on July 29, 2016

The claims of wanting real change and wanting to be heard are ringing false. Martyrdom is pretty seductive.

I'm canvassing with the Clinton campaign tomorrow, but I'll believe in real change when the party actually takes actions to cut its anointed 2020 candidate off from the firehose of money during the primary that all the other Democratic candidates protested against, not just Bernie. I am not holding my breath because of carefully-worded aspirational statements that we're all expected to take as commitment to campaign finance reform.
posted by XMLicious at 8:03 PM on July 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

prediction - if trump is elected, his OWN party will end up impeaching and convicting him

Conviction requires a two-thirds majority in the senate. So unless he does something really illegal, I think most democratic senators would be like "he's your standard bearer, you deal with it."
posted by peeedro at 8:04 PM on July 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

if trump is impeached and convicted, we get president pence, which might actually be worse
posted by murphy slaw at 8:04 PM on July 29, 2016 [16 favorites]

I hope he's thinking about this.

Why do you think he chose Pence?
posted by Talez at 8:05 PM on July 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

murphy slaw, I'm concerned that may actually be the long game in the most secret lairs of Republicans, although that is probably too cinematic to be true.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:07 PM on July 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

5. This is my longshot prediction. A high profile Republican will endorse Clinton at the last minute. My money's on Laura Bush.

I've got ten bucks on Romney.
posted by Tomorrowful at 8:07 PM on July 29, 2016 [18 favorites]

I mean I want him staying up nights and worrying about it. That just gives me pleasure.
posted by bongo_x at 8:08 PM on July 29, 2016

Someone upthread said Khizr Khan reminded them of their own immigrant dad, and I wanted to echo that sentiment. Different countries, different careers, different coasts, but I could see my dad stepping up to give that speech, dignified and angry and serious and earnest and believing in this (his) country, and loving and quietly bursting with pride for his kids, that I watched last night. They're probably about the same age and probably immigrated around the same time, coming to the US for higher degrees and staying to raise their families. All y'all say Kaine is platonic America's Dad, and I can see that in the cousins of my generation, born and raised in the US and goofing around with my nieces and nephews. But Khan represents mine, and I'm glad he spoke and I got to hear him.
posted by cdefgfeadgagfe at 8:10 PM on July 29, 2016 [70 favorites]

I think there might be a line of Republicans are ready to endorse Clinton, but are waiting to see how it goes. If it looks like Trump's going to lose anyway they're not going to put themselves out there.

Just my theory. But this "betting" thing intrigues me.
posted by bongo_x at 8:11 PM on July 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

I don't think he stays up nights worrying about anything, really. If he did, he'd be a different man. Some interviewer asked him what he thought about when he was alone, and the question baffled him. Sorry not to have the quote; it was in the 80s, I think.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:16 PM on July 29, 2016 [6 favorites]

Loudoun, Fairfax, and Arlington counties have your back in this election.

Probably even more than you might think. I mean, yes, they skew heavily Democratic to begin with, but the NoVa Republicans I know tend to be old-fashioned establishment types. Trump's support among that particular part of his ostensible base is very weak.
posted by jackbishop at 8:18 PM on July 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

@realDonaldTrump
Hillary Clinton should not be given national security briefings in that she is a lose cannon with extraordinarily bad judgement & insticts.
posted by gatorae at 8:03 PM on July 29 [9 favorites +] [!]

Here's my new fun internal game whenever I see or hear Trump's tweets or speech: I say or just think real loud "HOLY CRAP! a talking/tweeting [Orange Food item]!"* In this case it would be "HOLY CRAP! a tweeting cheeto!"

Because orange is diverse foodgroup you can stick with snack items, such as cheeto's, or cheez-its, and get pretty far, but I do enjoy the canteloupe, kumquat and other evocative imagery that fruits and veg can provide. The game is to think of as many orange food items as possible before the discussion has exhausted itself with disgust.

*This is based off of the unfunny punchline "HOLY CRAP A TALKING MUFFIN." A joke I never really got.
posted by Cold Lurkey at 8:19 PM on July 29, 2016 [8 favorites]

yeah trump's inner life is either a hallucinatory phantasmagoria or totally nonexistent
posted by murphy slaw at 8:20 PM on July 29, 2016 [5 favorites]

This is all oversimplified, but it's where my optimism for the outcome of this election is coming from.

I find myself fluctuating between optimism, and sheer, OMG what if the unthinkable happens horror.

Just now, in fact, I was visited by ghosts of 2004. I was an idealistic teen, and I was all in on the Kerry campaign* (16 years old, not even old enough to vote). I phone banked, I canvassed, I registered voters. Even though I was a democratic in a sea of hard core conservatives, I still thought, surely the rest of the country must see through all this bullshit. Surely we couldn't be so stupid as to re-elect this guy. I fantasized about waking up the day after the election, donning all my John Kerry gear, hopping in my car plastered with Kerry bumper stickers, and strutting into school and shoving it in everyone's face.

And then he lost. HE LOST. I was devastated, seriously. It's taken me 12 years to really bounce back and fully allow myself to get somewhat invested in another campaign. (I was on board the Obama train, but I kept my distance, lest my fragile heart be broken again.)

So sometimes I get a flashback to that dark time, and my blood runs cold.

But I will say that the Democratic party has come a long way. I really felt like they did a terrible job of backing John Kerry. The swift boating, the "flip flop" crap... we just seemed so weak and ineffectual. (The media as a whole was also complicit in enabling this horribleness, of course.)

Seeing what they pulled off with this convention just makes me so unbelievably happy and proud. It could have been a bland, boring coronation ceremony, but instead, it was riveting and inspiring. The diversity, the speakers, the optics, the substance. We've come along way from the dark days of the early aughts.

I won't feel safe until after the election (assuming Hillary wins), but I definitely feel better than I did even a couple weeks ago.

*I actually started as a Dean supporter, but I was willing to get behind any democrat/candidate who's last name wasn't "Bush."
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:25 PM on July 29, 2016 [27 favorites]

I hope she's checking the insticts on her lose cannon. I don't know what that is but it sounds bad.
posted by bongo_x at 8:25 PM on July 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

I assume Trump's inner life is just a loop of him banging on a pot and chanting "I am so great! I am so great! Everybody loves me, I am so great!" Bart Simpson style.
posted by yasaman at 8:25 PM on July 29, 2016 [26 favorites]

Loudoun, Fairfax, and Arlington counties have your back in this election.

Which is the core of the problem. The SW VA people vote and never win because they're outnumbered. So when a Trump comes along, they feel good.
posted by 922257033c4a0f3cecdbd819a46d626999d1af4a at 8:25 PM on July 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Stein supports the anti-vaxxers. So you're saying that your values are thousands to millions of children dying from easily preventable diseases?

Not a particularly honest claim!
posted by atoxyl at 8:26 PM on July 29, 2016

Huh I hadn't considered that Trump might actually be just a Chinese room but now that you say it...
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:27 PM on July 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

Even if he gets utterly crushed, it doesn't matter: 2020 is likely going to be a fucking hell-nightmare of an election. Given the level of support Trump has touting a basically-fascist platform, even with every single fuckup he's committed, all it's gonna take is someone just as authoritarian but slightly-less-dim (like just BARELY more capable!) to swoop in and re-energize the same field of people. Assuming Clinton wins: four years from now, we're gonna look back at 2016 with longing for such a frazzled, easily-unbalanced little shit.

Tom Cotton. He has been watching and learning. He is very smart, plays a pretty good aw-shucks Gomer, former military, and absolutely giddy about theocratic fascism.

I'm going to do the thing I never do and say that he will absolutely be the guy you're talking about, because whenever I make a confident IT WILL BE THUS political prediction, I'm usually wrong, and I need to be wrong now.
posted by middleclasstool at 8:29 PM on July 29, 2016 [21 favorites]

Trump is a germophobe. Which perhaps explains a great deal about how he divides the world into categories of "beautiful" and "disgusting."
posted by EarBucket at 8:29 PM on July 29, 2016 [10 favorites]

Donald Trump’s 4-Hour Sleep Habit Could Explain His Personality

So he is apparently kept up all night... not thinking.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:33 PM on July 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

Mike Pence came out against name-calling today, in a massive rebuke of Trump's entire campaign strategy to this point. Oh wait, no, Pence was actually scolding Obama for calling Trump a "demagogue." You can't make this stuff up.
posted by gatorae at 8:37 PM on July 29, 2016 [29 favorites]

there is an idea of a Donald Trump, some kind of abstraction, but there is no real me, only an entity, something illusory, and though I can hide my cold gaze and you can shake my ittybitty hand and feel flesh gripping yours and maybe you can even sense our lifestyles are probably comparable: I simply am not there. Sad!
posted by mccarty.tim at 8:37 PM on July 29, 2016 [13 favorites]

North Carolina - 4th Circuit ruling: NC State Conference of NAACP & Does, et al, v McRory et al (7-29-16, 83 pgs)

In response to claims that intentional racial discrimination animated its action, the State offered only meager justifications. Although the new provisions target African Americans with almost surgical precision, they constitute inapt remedies for the problems assertedly justifying them and, in fact, impose cures for problems that did not exist. Thus the asserted justifications cannot and do not conceal the State’s true motivation.

That is incredibly strong language for the court to be using. They are unequivocally saying "This law is not only racist, but intentionally racist, and we know you know it is racist, because you are lying to try to hide that fact."
posted by dersins at 8:42 PM on July 29, 2016 [90 favorites]

> Stein supports the anti-vaxxers

http://www.snopes.com/is-green-party-candidate-jill-stein-anti-vaccine/
posted by joeyh at 8:42 PM on July 29, 2016

Much of Trump's music wasn't American. Why stop now?

Credit where it's due: Trump's father inspired legendary American singer-songwriter Woody Guthrie!
posted by homunculus at 8:43 PM on July 29, 2016 [6 favorites]

Donald Trump’s 4-Hour Sleep Habit Could Explain His Personality

So he is apparently kept up all night... not thinking.

It's all the uppers he is clearly taking large quantities of.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:44 PM on July 29, 2016

Why didn't Woody's son Arlo perform that song at the DNC?
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:46 PM on July 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's all the uppers he is clearly taking large quantities of.

There are rumors that he takes phentermine...
posted by peeedro at 8:51 PM on July 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

> Stein supports the anti-vaxxers

http://www.snopes.com/is-green-party-candidate-jill-stein-anti-vaccine/

By implying that people should be suspicious of vaccines due to "corporate influence in medicine," Jill Stein is a de facto anti-vaxxer. The actual quotes in question:

I think that makes some people uncomfortable, so they’re trying to smear me as being anti-vaxxer. I’m not anti-vax; I’m just saying we need good, reliable data so that the American people know what we’re doing. I mean, it’s like saying the FDA, that has leadership from Monsanto, should tell us what kind of food is safe? No, you get Monsanto out of there, you get the pharmaceutical companies out of there, and then we can trust…

and

I don’t know if we have an “official” stance [on vaccination], but I can tell you my personal stance at this point. According to the most recent review of vaccination policies across the globe, mandatory vaccination that doesn’t allow for medical exemptions is practically unheard of. In most countries, people trust their regulatory agencies and have very high rates of vaccination through voluntary programs. In the US, however, regulatory agencies are routinely packed with corporate lobbyists and CEOs. So the foxes are guarding the chicken coop as usual in the US. So who wouldn’t be skeptical?

Hey guess what Jill Stein, we have that fucking data. And it unequivocally disproves whatever "skeptic" point you're trying to make. If you want to reform the FDA, say so. But don't imply that vaccines are unsafe because you heard some talking point once, or you're trying to pander to the woo vote.
posted by Existential Dread at 8:53 PM on July 29, 2016 [54 favorites]

It's cool, the Green Party got rid of its official support of homeopathy almost three months ago. Nothing to see here.
posted by Justinian at 8:54 PM on July 29, 2016 [12 favorites]

That is incredibly strong language for the court to be using. They are unequivocally saying "This law is not only racist, but intentionally racist, and we know you know it is racist, because you are lying to try to hide that fact."

It fucking rules. I skimmed through a big chunk of the ruling during work today, and it's full of lines like this. Somebody was righteously pissed off when they wrote it.

I used this one as the pull quote when I posted it on Facebook:

"A finding that legislative justifications are “plausible” and “not unreasonable” is a far cry from a finding that a particular law would have been enacted without considerations of race."
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:55 PM on July 29, 2016 [9 favorites]

Calling it now for Hillary, with the decision being final by midnight of election night.

Stop it! Go outside, turn around three times, and spit! You wanna invoke the wrath of the whatever from high atop the thing?
posted by mmoncur at 9:03 PM on July 29, 2016 [19 favorites]

yeah trump's inner life is either a hallucinatory phantasmagoria or totally nonexistent

It's just... urges. A leaky bucket of urges.

Mental health professionals have it drummed into them that they Do Not Diagnose From A Distance, but that doesn't stop them having off-duty conversations, and if you happen to know any mental health professionals, especially ones who've worked towards the severe end, they've probably had those off-duty conversations.
posted by holgate at 9:05 PM on July 29, 2016 [6 favorites]

The parents of the slain Muslim soldier, Khizr and Ghazala Khan, gave an interview on the Last Word.

They speak to the GOP leaders, and how they should repudiate Trump as a moral imperative.
posted by airish at 9:06 PM on July 29, 2016 [11 favorites]

Out of curiosity, other than debunking obvious slurs over the internet, is there anything I'm legally allowed to do as a British National to help the Clinton campaign.

Oust the Tories and fight for anything that might prevent Brexit. Our best leaders are going to need the partnership of your best leaders. We're all in this together.
posted by biogeo at 9:10 PM on July 29, 2016 [12 favorites]

You would figure if Trump really has some phobia or something about sleeping in his own bed someone on his campaign would have had him buy a residence in Chicago. He's got (or does he?) that fancy residential tower with his name on it even as a possible choice.
posted by Mitheral at 9:14 PM on July 29, 2016

But can Trump afford to buy a residence that fits his idea of what a Donald Trump residence should be?
posted by howfar at 9:16 PM on July 29, 2016 [9 favorites]

That is incredibly strong language for the court to be using. They are unequivocally saying "This law is not only racist, but intentionally racist, and we know you know it is racist, because you are lying to try to hide that fact."

Or to put it more bluntly, the 4th circuit is telling the state of North Carolina "You are a lying, racist piece of shit."
posted by dersins at 9:17 PM on July 29, 2016 [15 favorites]

If he's elected, he will sleep in the White House... after spending an obscene amount of money redecorating the Lincoln Bedroom into the Trump Bedroom (I assume tearing out at least two walls to expand).
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:27 PM on July 29, 2016 [2 favorites]

You left out the part where he borrows an obscene amount of money to spend on redecorating the Lincoln Bedroom.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 9:35 PM on July 29, 2016 [8 favorites]

Orange food story time! One day I was visiting a friend's office and began expounding on my theory that all orange food is delicious, be it a natural or artificial food product. Peaches, cheetos, pumpkin, etc.: all delicious in their own way. The new administrative assistant had a little crush on me and listened attentively. Years later, after he quit, I got a phone call from his replacement. Apparently he had created a hint for a password for some website that read "What Carmicha thinks is delicious." The password was "OrangeFood."
posted by carmicha at 9:36 PM on July 29, 2016 [21 favorites]

Oh, and also:

was the thing about Charles Manson and Robert Mugabe endorsing Trump real or satire? (I know Kim Jong-Il and David Duke were real.)

I feel like we maybe need an anti-hamburger symbol to explicitly claim statements as non-sarcastic, if only for use in political threads. (What's the opposite of hamburger? Kale? Cow?)
posted by Spathe Cadet at 9:41 PM on July 29, 2016 [6 favorites]

"borrows" the money? Nah, it'll come straight out of the budget for the Department of the Interior.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:42 PM on July 29, 2016 [5 favorites]

I have to say that all these election threads have been the only things keeping me sane through the conventions. I haven't commented before but I've been diligently reading through all of them, and thank you. My facebook feed is full of BoBs saying we're "doomed either way" and I just...it's so easy to get tired and demoralized. I was a Bernie supporter in the primaries but not a huge one, and the DNC sold me on Hillary and the Democratic platform this year. I was going to vote for her anyway, but now I'll be doing it without gritting my teeth. In any case, I find myself so disappointed in the left and the lack of nuance happening all over my facebook feed. The most recent post I saw was a video proclaiming that Bernie actually won the primary :/

So thank you metafilter for being the voice of reason, and for the thoughtful and complicated discussions that have been happening throughout these election threads. And thank you mods for keeping them that way.
posted by dysh at 9:42 PM on July 29, 2016 [36 favorites]

The risk of Trump winning is real, and I think it's tied up with how people view democracy in an individualistic era. People are frustrated because, whenever they vote, however they vote, they never seem to get what they voted for. They therefore conclude that democracy is broken. This is, of course, precisely the wrong conclusion. Everyone not getting what they voted for is a necessary, although not sufficient, condition for a working democracy. But it feels unfair to people who are either used to making choices about their lives, or who aspire to that state because it is the dominant ideology of the age.

Hence the (relatively limited) real risk of President Trump. He represents, to a sizeable minority of people (the majority of whom are white men) a way to make democracy "work", by removing compromise from the outcome. Meanwhile, Clinton, or any sane politician, can only offer more of the same, the difficult compromises of real democracy.

This dissatisfaction with the compromises involved in a functioning democracy is what led to Brexit, and it is the reason I am still scared by the possibility of a Trump victory.
posted by howfar at 9:48 PM on July 29, 2016 [49 favorites]

This is also the root cause of the ongoing shitshow in the Labour Party.
posted by howfar at 9:50 PM on July 29, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm fucking scared, okay? I don't see this part of the state going blue. I'm trying to do what I can-- there's a diversity rally happening tomorrow that's only a half hour drive away, in a mid-size town with middle class aspirations, and I plan to be there. But it doesn't look half as organized as Obama's supporters did in this same region in 2008.

In a way, you have Tim Kaine to thank for that. He rewrote the book on how democrats win elections in Virginia. Mark Warner and Jim Webb won statewide positions by running "bubba campaigns", both advised by Mudcat Saunders, where they went after the gun-loving, NASCAR watching rural white vote. But when Kaine ran for governor, he saw that the state on the whole was becoming more liberal and the population centers of NoVa, Hampton Roads, and Richmond were blue enough that he could win the state running as an actual democrat, instead of a blue dog, and focused his energy there.

I don't think the Clinton campaign is going to put much resources towards your part of the commonwealth, they will probably get the most bang for their buck convincing veterans and military-adjacent people in Hampton Roads that Trump isn't Commander in Chief material. Hang in there and do what you can to keep your spirits up.
posted by peeedro at 9:55 PM on July 29, 2016 [14 favorites]

Now that Xeni has pointed this out, I can't stop seeing it.

I grew up in a home where the Man abused the Woman. Trump speaks about Hillary with the tone of a spouse abuser. It's my lil ptsd dogwhistle

That's why I believe it's so important that this man not win. I know what horrors tend to lie in the locked attics of men who use that tone

The namecalling, the constant denigration, the self-aggrandizement? I mean, I know that the GOP is the party of Daddy but that seems to be writing in in the sky in giant 50-foot letters of fire.

At the same time I also can't help but think of Trump as simultaneously being a little, angry boy, screaming about how he doesn't need naps. (Seriously, he's come out against naps? I guess if you take enough uppers...)
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 9:58 PM on July 29, 2016 [53 favorites]

Some sources reported this as an endorsement from Mugabe. It's a bit of a stretch, honestly.

The Manson thing turned out to be a joke.
posted by murphy slaw at 9:59 PM on July 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Given the level of support Trump has touting a basically-fascist platform, even with every single fuckup he's committed, all it's gonna take is someone just as authoritarian but slightly-less-dim (like just BARELY more capable!) to swoop in... -- GregNog

Whenever someone worries too loudly about this person or that person not supporting Clinton loudly or strongly enough, I encourage them to relax and be thankful. Find religion if necessary, because God has handed us the easiest candidate to defeat in modern history.

Chill, people. No democrat (no, not even our beloved foot-shooting Democratic Party) could mess this up. Work on the downticket stuff. It's less glamorous but matters much more.

Or if you want nightmares, you masochists: imagine she had an actual opponent!
posted by rokusan at 9:59 PM on July 29, 2016 [7 favorites]

Out of curiosity, other than debunking obvious slurs over the internet, is there anything I'm legally allowed to do as a British National to help the Clinton campaign?

Ready to make calls?
posted by kirkaracha at 10:05 PM on July 29, 2016 [1 favorite]

Local media on firemarshal-gate. Also, the venue at the university was leased for the day by Trump's campaign, and the fact that the room only holds 1500 was known in advance.
posted by mochapickle at 10:16 PM on July 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

"I was curious to see whether she'd do a class act and ... give me a big fat beautiful congratulations. If she did that, would that have been cool? Would that have been great?"

Good questions from "I Am Curious Orange" ...
posted by New Frontier at 10:20 PM on July 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

Of course that was known in advance. There's probably a fucking sign on the wall that says "max occupancy 1500", just like code requires in every assembly space in the country.
posted by LionIndex at 10:22 PM on July 29, 2016 [23 favorites]

So has anyone managed to figure out what exactly Hillary should be congratulating Trump for? What is it that he's done that's never been done before in the history of politics?
posted by dysh at 10:24 PM on July 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

> Speaking of striking down voting restrictions, the Fourth Circuit Court of Appeals also struck down North Carolina's.

Charles Pierce: Today Is a Great Day for Voting Rights. Allow me—and the Rev. Barber—to explain.
posted by homunculus at 10:25 PM on July 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

He wanted to be congratulated because he got more delegate votes than any candidate ever? And obviously he was hurt because he spent so much time graciously congratulating Hillary for her nomination at the RNC.
posted by mochapickle at 10:25 PM on July 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

About that fire marshal: I just asked him if he is a Democrat or a Republican, and he said "Yes."

That is one quick-thinking fire marshal.
posted by zachlipton at 10:25 PM on July 29, 2016 [52 favorites]

While I loved Bernie's speech, it was Mr. Khan's speech really was really effective. That's pretty much gone viral. It deserves to be in some sort of anthology of great, historic speeches. Bernie got me to say, 'OK, I could do this...' Mr.Khan however got me fired up.

Oh, I and a few Balkan friends have been calling Melania Trump 'Grofica' which means 'Countess'
Originally online information about Melania Trump said she was 'born in the confines of Sevnice castle'
All that stuff has been scrubbed.
I'd love to see the Slovenian equivalent of her 'long form' birth certificate.
The castle in Sevnice was owned by some Hapsburgs.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 10:27 PM on July 29, 2016 [16 favorites]

So has anyone managed to figure out what exactly Hillary should be congratulating Trump for? What is it that he's done that's never been done before in the history of politics?

first presidential candidate with no qualifications whatsoever
posted by murphy slaw at 10:27 PM on July 29, 2016 [39 favorites]

He wanted to be congratulated because he got more delegate votes than any candidate ever?

Clinton: 16,847,084 votes
Trump: 14,009,107 votes
posted by kirkaracha at 10:49 PM on July 29, 2016 [13 favorites]

With the room capacity thing, I bet that part of the problem is that it's intended basically as a basketball venue, with a large open floor space in the middle and bleacher seating on the sides. As such, it was built with enough exits to accommodate having the bleachers full plus assorted overflow capacity on the floor, but was never intended to be safe when literally packed full of people in every part of the room. Or it could be setup for seating on the floor with the bleachers left empty. If we look at the floorplan, we can see that the bleachers take up almost all the space on both sides of the room, which doesn't leave room for the kind of exits you'd need if you were actually packing in that many more people on the floor. And the exit behind the stage was blocked.

So Trump gets up there and concludes the room has visible floor space and flips out, because obviously his snap-decision is better than the guy who knows anything about fire marshaling. And then he decides it's all a big partisan conspiracy when really it's about ethics in not inviting people into a room they can't evacuate.

On the other hand, the organizers clearly knew days ago that the capacity would be 1,500, and the fire marshal let them bring in an extra 100 people, so they're even bigger idiots.
posted by zachlipton at 10:56 PM on July 29, 2016 [13 favorites]

Possibly this is what Katjusa Roquette referred to and I just missed it but Melania Trump's personal web site was taken down last week.
posted by XMLicious at 11:20 PM on July 29, 2016

Adult Swim just had a little interlude mocking the Buster's at the convention. I felt kinda bad. Not that bad, but still.
posted by bongo_x at 11:22 PM on July 29, 2016

i saw The Decembrists at Gallogly Events Center. i bet it was a better show. and, yes, at capacity there is lots of room to dance ~~visible floor space~~.

uccs alum
posted by j_curiouser at 11:27 PM on July 29, 2016 [3 favorites]

What'd Adult Swim say about them?
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:49 PM on July 29, 2016

@realDonaldTrump
Hillary Clinton should not be given national security briefings in that she is a lose cannon with extraordinarily bad judgement & insticts.

I didn't believe Trump posted that, gatorae, and had to go check myself. Yep, he posted it. He also misspelled "loose" and "instincts", but hey, with a tweet like that, who cares about spelling?
posted by iffthen at 12:37 AM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's usually correct to assume that if Trump says it about somebody else, he means it about himself.
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:39 AM on July 30, 2016 [18 favorites]

Every time I see BoBs in these threads I think of Outkast

I think of the artist B.o.B., and when people talk about "Busters" I interpret it according to this definition.
posted by iffthen at 12:46 AM on July 30, 2016

Hillary Clinton should not be given national security briefings in that she is a lose cannon with extraordinarily bad judgement & insticts.

No way Trump wrote that, it doesn't say "Crooked."

Already 139 characters, but yeah
posted by iffthen at 12:50 AM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

I know that the GOP is the party of Daddy

the silver hair at the temples...the wide stance in the men's room
posted by thelonius at 1:06 AM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

I spent way too much time debunking a FB friends post on how "See, this report PROVES that Bernie would have won"

Dropped a bunch of metafilter on them:

- website for the group that wrote the doc doesn't list authors, let alone a board, or staff, just "experienced election experts and things"
- In fact there are no authors in the document at all, but its shared from a google drive so I got that owners name
- 'donate' button prominently featured, nothing about 501c3 status, donate button takes you to a gofundme page
- lots of graphs and eye charts, and one graph explaining coin tosses.
- website was registered in april to a guy whose linked in page shows he worked at radioshack and verizon previously
- total of 5 different people named in the document, none of them show as any of the rolls identified through a cursory googling
- it's primary argument is a statistical model created by ron paul supporters in 2016 who were 'good at engineering'
posted by mrzarquon at 1:46 AM on July 30, 2016 [40 favorites]

I'm canvassing with the Clinton campaign tomorrow, but I'll believe in real change when the party actually takes actions to cut its anointed 2020 candidate off from the firehose of money during the primary that all the other Democratic candidates protested against, not just Bernie. I am not holding my breath because of carefully-worded aspirational statements that we're all expected to take as commitment to campaign finance reform.

I've never been a big believer in unilateral disarmament, myself.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:17 AM on July 30, 2016 [15 favorites]

Oh wait, no, Pence was actually scolding Obama for calling Trump a "demagogue." You can't make this stuff up.

This comment above reminded me that I needed a refresher on the meaning of demagogue.

First stop: dictionary.

demagogue:
a political leader who seeks support by appealing to popular desires and prejudices rather than by using rational argument.

Political leader is a bit of a stretch, but otherwise sounds about right.

Let's try the Wiki:
4 The methods of demagogues
4.1 Scapegoating
4.2 Fearmongering
4.3 Lying
4.4 Emotional oratory and personal magnetism
4.5 Violence and physical intimidation
4.6 Personal insults and ridicule
4.7 Gross oversimplification
4.8 Accusing opponents of weakness and disloyalty

Holy shit! It's like the word was invented for the sole purpose of describing Donald Trump. Nice call, Mr. President!
posted by p3t3 at 2:55 AM on July 30, 2016 [70 favorites]

I've never been a big believer in unilateral disarmament, myself.

Absolutely. I want Citizens United overturned as much as anyone, but until it is, fuck giving the people who want to make it permanent and take away civil rights, marriage rights, abortion rights, freedom from religion, etc. a huge advantage in accomplishing that.
posted by chris24 at 4:20 AM on July 30, 2016 [14 favorites]

Noam fucking Chomsky on Democracy fucking Now on voting for Clinton in the general: "I don’t think there’s any other rational choice."
posted by [expletive deleted] at 8:30 PM on July 29 [35 favorites +] [!]

I question the veracity of your username.
posted by rorgy at 4:24 AM on July 30, 2016 [35 favorites]

Eponadictory?
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:32 AM on July 30, 2016 [13 favorites]

Trump is laying the groundwork for skipping the debates.
posted by T.D. Strange at 4:50 AM on July 30, 2016 [10 favorites]

He definitely is, but the debates are run by an independent commission that set the dates a year ago. If I was Clinton I'd say, "Oh, you're worried not enough people will see them? Let's add some."
posted by chris24 at 4:56 AM on July 30, 2016 [22 favorites]

> "'See, I thought she might do something like that. I thought she'd give me a big fat beautiful congratulations.'"

Dear god. How did we get here? "SHE'S A CRIMINAL! A CRIMINAL AND A LIAR! SHE SHOULD BE SHAVED AND BEATEN AND SET ON FIRE! Also, how come she never calls me? I'm hurt."
posted by kyrademon at 5:07 AM on July 30, 2016 [39 favorites]

Hey, so...

While I expect to tune in again once the debates start (and IF they start), one of my pledges this year was to stop following the news as it breaks. There's just too damn much of it, and it says nothing, and it's all the same thing anyway. Today Trump flips a shit at a fire marshall. Tomorrow he'll flip a shit at some other undeserving decent person. Leaks about terrible things Hillary Clinton might have done will come to light, and they will be bullshit, and that will not stop the people who are predisposed to care about such things.

Your knowing this will not change the outcome of this election. America will not find the decency it is lacking; it will not lose the decency it already has. The country won't change overnight.

If you do need to feel like you're involved, volunteer. Volunteer and you will not only be making a difference, but you are guaranteed to meet only people who are invested enough in Clinton to do the sake. No busters, no Trumpites. I'm sure they are all lovely people. (Social anxiety is preventing me from volunteering, because the thought of making calls or going door-to-door is low-grade terrifying, but I keep hovering on the fence of wanting to volunteer anyway, and deal with the emotional burnout later.)

More important than all that, I think, is... stop checking Facebook. Seriously. Even more so than Twitter, Facebook is mechanically–implemented insanity. You do not need the voices of everybody you know telling you what they think, and you do not need them responding to what you have to say, either. Your friends and family do not represent America, and killing yourself to either change their minds or even remain neutral in the wake of their posts does nobody any good. The psychic toll of being exposed to that stuff is very, very real.

I'm not saying isolate yourself. But you are responsible for the ways in which you connect. Choose the healthiest connections you can. That might be volunteering; it might be weekly pub meets with your close friends; it might be dog parks. Who knows. But please don't feel like you're responsible for witnessing and shouldering a burden this election that'll help nobody, teach you nothing, and be forgotten in four months anyway, as if it was all a fever dream. I'm sure Trump and his trolly legion loves knowing the misery they inflict upon those they disagree with. Don't let them have even that much unless you're getting sonething back that's worth it.
posted by rorgy at 5:18 AM on July 30, 2016 [24 favorites]

At least one of the debates is on a Wednesday night. Is he going to claim he can't miss Mr. Robot?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:20 AM on July 30, 2016 [8 favorites]

Seriously doubt Trump will skip the debates, but if he can construct a narrative that Hillary is a puppet master and has turned the debate structure against him, it sandbags him against suffering from a poor performance.
posted by GameDesignerBen at 5:21 AM on July 30, 2016

More important than all that, I think, is... stop checking Facebook.

While I agree that it can be depressing and not for everyone, I also think lies and misinformation shouldn't be allowed to stand unchallenged and fester and grow until the weight of them makes people think they must be true. I know I'm probably not convincing my BoB or Trump friends, but I don't really do it for them. I do it for the sane Republicans, the moderates, the whoever is watching who might not know that what they're saying is bullshit.
posted by chris24 at 5:27 AM on July 30, 2016 [10 favorites]

Regarding the sincerity of Hillary Clinton's desire to have Citizens United overturned, it's worth remembering that the case centred around the right of Koch-funded ratfuckers to spend unlimited amounts of money on slandering her personally. The plaintiffs argued that doing so inside proscribed time limits around an election was not "electioneering", and thus protected speech. The Republican majority was like "lol, no, it's totes electioneering, but that's okay, we'll just strike down a section of the law you didn't even try to challenge as unconstitutional because she's a bitch amirite?"
posted by [expletive deleted] at 5:30 AM on July 30, 2016 [33 favorites]

Clinton Rally this afternoon in Pittsburgh at 5, at the convention center. There's a meetup proposed for either before or after but we haven't decided on a time or place yet.
posted by octothorpe at 5:32 AM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh my God: BREAKING: Hours After First Intelligence Briefing, Trump Likely Leaked CLASSIFIED Secrets
posted by devinemissk at 5:33 AM on July 30, 2016 [10 favorites]

not so sure i buy this - just how, in today's world, does one keep an entire military base secret?
posted by pyramid termite at 5:36 AM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Of course el orange Chupacabra is going to try to skip the debates. HRC has knowledge, training, experience, and intelligence on her side. Trump has only playground tactics and squinting belligerence. If he goes head-to-head with her, he'll look like an enraged hamster who has challenged a jaguar to a duel-- and on some level, he has to know that.

So why submit to it voluntarily? He managed to skip a debate in the primary with zero consequences, so why not do that again now? His base will only love him the more for it, and it's not like the rest of us could possibly think any less of him.
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 5:36 AM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Even if the statement was pure bluster -- that is, he made it without having received any information -- it LOOKS bad from a foreign policy standpoint. That is, the timing makes it seem like he revealed something, even if he didn't.
posted by devinemissk at 5:40 AM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

There are three options there:

1) There is no U.S. base in Saudi Arabia and Trump was making shit up or just combining half-remembered truths into something unrelated to reality.

2) He was thinking of Eskan Village Air Force Compound, which is not a "base" per the technical meaning of the term but is a military installation in Saudi Arabia that we possibly pay rent on.

3) There's an actual secret military base in Saudi Arabia and now other countries/NGOs know to look for it.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 5:41 AM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

Yeah, as much as I hate Trump, I think this is more likely him not knowing the earlier base was closed or thinking of Eskan. Like he thought Tim Kaine was Tom Kean. Also, the WSJ article linked to in the BipartisanReport link describes the process for briefings and says the machinery to start them was just begun yesterday, not that he received one already.
posted by chris24 at 5:42 AM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Proves me wrong devinemissk. I predicted he'd do something like this around mid-August. It took him what, like 24 hours?
posted by lordrunningclam at 5:42 AM on July 30, 2016

BipartisanReport is also a shady "news" website.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:42 AM on July 30, 2016 [11 favorites]

just how, in today's world, does one keep an entire military base secret?

Really depends on how big it is. It's not that hard to hide a drone landing strip or a special forces forward staging base consisting of maybe a hanger and several helicopters/support vehicles. It's likely not a "secret" to the there people locally, but it sure as hell would be illegal to mention in the national press. There's only a very few organizations that have access to real-time satellite images, so it'd be entirely possible to hide a small installation in the desert.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:43 AM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

Regarding the debates, Trump's handlers have to know he's going to come off terribly to a general election audience, he can't speak coherently about a single issue, and can't contain his rage-strokes with a live camera in front of him. I expect him to try and dominance play his way out of appearing on the same stage as Hilary. She may not be the most fantastic speaker (although she was pretty damn good this week), but she is widely acknowledged to but a fantastic debater, where her preparation and broad experience really shines through. Trump is going to get objectively killed, so if he can somehow strongarm his way out of a "corrupt" debate, he's going to try.

Although I do think it's hilarious he apparently thinks he can't out draw the Giants-Packers game.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:49 AM on July 30, 2016 [11 favorites]

Or if you want nightmares, you masochists: imagine she had an actual opponent!

This election is a gross recapitulation of the life of every woman. We work hard to achieve and be accomplished and yet somehow we're still in serious competion against an idiot whose major accomplishment is being a dude.

This election isn't a nightmare; it's our everyday reality.
posted by winna at 5:53 AM on July 30, 2016 [180 favorites]

I was just thinking this morning that maybe the most troubling thing to me about this election isn't so many people agreeing with Trump's politics, it's so many people looking at him and going, "Yeah, sure, he sounds sane and rational and like a good person." He's so clearly operating under several raging personality disorders and perhaps a cognitive deficit of some sort, that so many people seem to think he's just a totally okay dude is really really..... It's just quite literally shocking to me. And upsetting. If he was running as a Democrat, with different politics, I still wouldn't vote for him, because he's a sociopath.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:59 AM on July 30, 2016 [62 favorites]

Did Trump really just tweet out a poorly photoshopped picture of himself as Thomas the Tank Engine? Can we please get the rest of the election narrated by Ringo Starr and have an animated Trump Thomas steaming around the US getting into trouble with the Fat Controller. Come in Internet - make it happen!
posted by inflatablekiwi at 6:00 AM on July 30, 2016 [15 favorites]

now you can be terrified

I am never leaving the house again.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:04 AM on July 30, 2016 [9 favorites]

how can he be thomas the tank engine? i thought he was chingacabra the caboose
posted by pyramid termite at 6:05 AM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

Did Trump really just tweet out a poorly photoshopped picture of himself as Thomas the Tank Engine?

WHAT
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:10 AM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

So I was reading RedState this morning, which has become so much more fun now that Eric Ericson has become an anti-Trumper, and came across an op-ed about American politics turning into a horrible reality show. (I would argue with him that it has always been a circus.) His evidence? Oh you know the usual bathroom bullshit. But also that there is a GoFundMe to put Harambe the gorilla on Mt. Rushmore.

I get the feeling that is more a meme than an actual push to carve the likeness of a Gorilla into the mountain of a protected National Monument. For one thing that would be illegal. For another the amount to be raised is $20,000 which would accomplish nothing. But don't worry there has only been a $5.00 donation so far. I think it is really just something to spread around Facebook. That way you can show either your sympathy for a dead Gorilla or prove how dumb liberals are.

Another thing "proving" that America is going to hell is that Lefties are turning everything, including a popular hibachi routine into a sexual assault. I read the story so you don't have to. It turns out that it took place in Murfreesboro, Tennessee and the couple were from Texas and old enough to have grandchildren so I'm going to go out on a limb and guess they were not Lefties. The "sexual assault" which led the couple to call the police happened when the woman was squirted in the face by a boy doll filled with water as part of the floor show.

"(It happened) in front of our minor children and grandchildren," James Lassiter said.

"It really didn't have a wiener, but you got the point," Isabelle Lassiter said.

It really does not matter if the couple are Right Wingers or Left Wingers. What matters is they are stupid. So not really a sign that The Left is turning everything into a sexual assault.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:14 AM on July 30, 2016

Did Trump really just tweet out a poorly photoshopped picture of himself as Thomas the Tank Engine? Can we please get the rest of the election narrated by Ringo Starr and have an animated Trump Thomas steaming around the US getting into trouble with the Fat Controller. Come in Internet - make it happen!

The question that the left needs to answer: Should the Fat Controller be Pence or Ryan?
posted by Talez at 6:19 AM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

#FakeTrumpIntelligenceBriefing

My favorites:

The NSA finally reveals to him the identity of who let the dogs out.

Sir, "win big" is not a military strategy

No you can not declare war via twitter. Someone explain the concept of twitter wars

Missing Clinton Emails being held at Area 51. Must wear Aluminum Foil hat to enter. Code word: Scott Baio
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:28 AM on July 30, 2016 [10 favorites]

BREAKING: Hours After First Intelligence Briefing, Trump Likely Leaked CLASSIFIED Secrets

I'm gonna call bullshit on this. From the clickbait: "Trump attended an intelligence briefing this afternoon in which he was told sensitive information for his own safety and for the safety of Americans." This has not happened yet. The security briefing is a full-day thing with either the Director of the CIA or the Director of National Intelligence. It's a big to-do high level briefing. Trump and Pence haven't done this yet. They've been fundraising and campaigning, they have not had a full day in DC for any briefings.
posted by peeedro at 6:31 AM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

"No need to worry about the Chutari invasion sir we have the Avengers for that" (cite)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:31 AM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

BipartisanReport is also a shady "news" website.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:42 AM on 7/30
[+] [!]

Ah. I realized it was not mainstream, of course, but was unaware of its shadiness. I'll be more credulous next time.
posted by devinemissk at 6:32 AM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'll be more credulous next time.
I think less credulous is what we're hoping for, but we've got your back either way.
posted by Floydd at 6:36 AM on July 30, 2016 [21 favorites]

Ok, time to put the comment box away until I've had more coffee.
posted by devinemissk at 6:38 AM on July 30, 2016 [9 favorites]

Regarding convincing BoB's to vote for Hilary. I gotta say I lean towards ROU_Xenophobe 's approach. I don't think you gain anything by the "grow up" insults, and aren't making an especially appealing by going for feelings of guilt or fear. Those are intimidation style tactics that don't do well with people already upset over their choices. It can come across, regardless of intent, as paternalistic or otherwise disrespectful.

I'm also a little iffy on attacking votes of conscience purely on the face of it. I mean the rationality arguments are fine when you're comparing candidates, but, for example, if Ted Cruz was running against Donald Trump there isn't anything you could say that would get me to cast a vote for either of them. If the people you are trying to convince believe Hilary is roughly the equivalent of Cruz, then you're going to have a problem.

To even try to address that would require first trying to find out why it is they hate Hilary so much from their own words, and then address those concerns, mostly by pointing out how so many of the talking points surrounding Hilary are largely fake or blown out of proportion coming from Karl Rove and from her marriage to Bill Clinton. Separate Bill's presidency from Hilary, emphasize the platform she put forward and her service. Don't oversell, keep expectations within a reasonable grasp of their current position. You're only trying to nudge them to see things from a different perspective, not drag these people somewhere they don't want to go.

Compare Hilary's positions to Jill Stein, is Stein really a good candidate? If not then they aren't really voting their conscience so much as voting for yet another "lesser evil". There should be ample opportunity to suggest, not demand, that Stein is a worse real choice than Hilary along any number of lines even were Stein equally likely to get elected.

Foreign policy, I think, is going to be a key sticking point now that Hilary has gone so far left on domestic issues. I'd suggest mention things like Brexit, and question the largely vague green ideals on foreign involvement if it goes that far since their policies would roughly be how Bush dealt with Iraq, drive the bad guys out, but have no plan for how to positively effect change once that happens which, and we know how that worked out.

From that you might segue into talking about the opportunities Sanders created in helping push the democrats left. How now they're beholden to the left with all the promises made at their convention. It isn't a time to stop fighting and protesting, just change the goal of those protests to making better policies. Keep emphasizing all the people being brought front and center in the party for the first time and stress the new vocabularies being used. Having a candidate talk about systemic racism is no small victory in and of itself.

Side with them, offer ideas on future strategies to keep the pressure on Clinton to keep her promises. Talk to them as if you know you and they already agree, since it's true, you do on so many issues, so don't let the areas where you don't agree or their anger get in the way of showing how similar your beliefs really are. Basically, show them some respect just like you'd want to receive if your opinion was an unpopular one. Leave the berating and yelling for the rest of the twittersphere, be a positive outlet for progress instead.
posted by gusottertrout at 6:40 AM on July 30, 2016 [25 favorites]

Sorry, that was longer than I meant it to be. The short version: The best way I know to change minds is to not try to win arguments like a debate team, but to shift the discussion to where the other person can find a space to reach the answer for themselves without feeling like they've lost ground.
posted by gusottertrout at 6:47 AM on July 30, 2016 [43 favorites]

. . . I think it is really just something to spread around Facebook. That way you can show either your sympathy for a dead Gorilla or prove how dumb liberals are.

Over-the-top grief for Harambe is a meme I don't get. I can't tell if it's a catchphrase mocking the ridiculously short memory of the news cycle or a crypto-racist signal. I can definitely tell that I'm getting old though ("the kids are joking and I don't understand them is it because they are DEPRAVED")
posted by Countess Elena at 6:50 AM on July 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

I woke up this morning to discover that my kids had substituted their usual Saturday morning YouTube Minecraft videos with Hillary Clinton's acceptance speech.
posted by humanfont at 6:51 AM on July 30, 2016 [75 favorites]

Has anyone analyzed Trump's speeches and tweets vs. Randall Munroe's simple English dictionary?
posted by Andrhia at 6:58 AM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

to gusottertrout's point:

How to Listen When You Disagree
posted by devinemissk at 7:00 AM on July 30, 2016 [13 favorites]

the trump endorsement train keeps rolling along! recent highlights:
Robert Mugabe
Kim Jong-Un
Charles Manson
David Duke
Anyone want to start a pool for his next endorsement?

I was going to have some fun and suggest a fictional character from popular media, but I can't come up with a villain that is both Truly Evil Grrr enough to make the joke land who would also actually endorse Trump in such a way that it fits with their characterization.

Doctor Doom would see Trump as an amateur charlatan who on his best days is nowhere near as successful and glorious as Doom.
The Joker wouldn't like anyone who can out-crazy him.
For the Reverse Flash, Trump has been dead for centuries.
Doctor Nefarious is more of a robot supremacist, so he wouldn't be on board with Trump's "white humans first" policies.

The only name I can come up with that fits is Hill Valley's own Biff Tannen and, well, that's already been done far better than I could ever state it.
posted by Servo5678 at 7:01 AM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Over-the-top grief for Harambe is a meme I don't get. I can't tell if it's a catchphrase mocking the ridiculously short memory of the news cycle or a crypto-racist signal. I can definitely tell that I'm getting old though ("the kids are joking and I don't understand them is it because they are DEPRAVED")

@jimpjorps:

Harambe symbolizes our utter helplessness in the face of the machinations of our country's two-party system, murking our future's domes

posted by Rustic Etruscan at 7:11 AM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

This morning my Facebook feed is full of BoBs sharing this article about Election Justice USA's findings of fraud in the primary, and saying that Bernie would have won without said fraud. Is this legit?
posted by rabbitrabbit at 7:15 AM on July 30, 2016

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

no
posted by dersins at 7:18 AM on July 30, 2016 [34 favorites]

I don't think Bernie or Busters are as big a demographic as people seem to think. I would post that their numbers are declining every day; I doubt they will have any impact on the election, and it's the true independents and undecideds that should get attention going forward.

This is undoubtedly the case. It's still very, very early (I know it doesn't' feel like it, but it really is) in the election season, and the amount of Busters is only going to keep declining. There have been no 4-way polls post-DNC yet. It won't be more than a tiny percentage of Bernie primary voters who still refuse to vote Clinton on election day. We should know a lot more about the real state of the race this week after seeing if/how much of a convention bump Clinton gets, and if she loses ground again as the polling likely stabilizes until September.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:22 AM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

Is this legit?

See mqrzarquon's earlier post.
posted by chris24 at 7:22 AM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

The Red Skull would be delighted by the rise of Trump. Heck, he might even plot to kidnap The Donald and take over his campaign.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 7:29 AM on July 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

Election Justice USA is basically Shyla Nelson a Vermont based musician, climate activist and Bernie delegate. She walked out after the roll call vote.

Interesting how they don't mention how the Sanders team admitted to giving their people trick coins in Nevada, the request by sanders to reduce polling stations in Puerto Rico and the Washington State primary vs caucus results.
posted by humanfont at 7:36 AM on July 30, 2016 [7 favorites]

> Social anxiety is preventing me from volunteering, because the thought of making calls or going door-to-door is low-grade terrifying, but I keep hovering on the fence of wanting to volunteer anyway

Right there with you. I wish the Clinton campaign needed, like, something alphabetized, or wanted a big stack of boxes moved from point A to point B, or something. I would be all over that.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 7:38 AM on July 30, 2016 [65 favorites]

At least a couple of the Four Horsemen would also enthusiastically endorse Trump.

iffthen: "He also misspelled "loose" and "instincts", but hey, with a tweet like that, who cares about spelling?"

I'm not convinced that lose was a typo, he may think the phrase is lose cannon as in a cannon that loses.

rorgy: "(Social anxiety is preventing me from volunteering, because the thought of making calls or going door-to-door is low-grade terrifying, but I keep hovering on the fence of wanting to volunteer anyway, and deal with the emotional burnout later.)
"

I'm sure they can use runners, photocopiers, drivers, and people to answer the phone too.

Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish: "There's an actual secret military base in Saudi Arabia and now other countries/NGOs know to look for it"

More importantly if it was true it would signal to all the other countries with secret US bases that the existence of those bases could be outed by Trump; something that is sure to be unpopular some places.
posted by Mitheral at 7:39 AM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

Interesting how they don't mention how the Sanders team admitted to giving their people trick coins in Nevada, the request by sanders to reduce polling stations in Puerto Rico and the Washington State primary vs caucus results.

I was more interested in looking for references to the disenfranchisement of black and brown people but then I got bored and wandered away
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:45 AM on July 30, 2016

Why Pittsburgh’s Success Presents a Challenge To Hillary Clinton
posted by octothorpe at 7:48 AM on July 30, 2016 [7 favorites]

rabbitrabbit: "This morning my Facebook feed is full of BoBs sharing this article about Election Justice USA's findings of fraud in the primary, and saying that Bernie would have won without said fraud. Is this legit?"

The convention's over and Sanders endorsed Clinton, can we stop refighting the primaries?
posted by octothorpe at 7:49 AM on July 30, 2016 [6 favorites]

@NateSilver538: First fully post-DNC poll I've seen shows a 10-point bounce for Clinton
posted by zombieflanders at 7:51 AM on July 30, 2016 [28 favorites]

I bet if we got access to RNC and right wing super-pac emails we would see there was a much bigger conspiracy to push Bernie Sanders.
posted by humanfont at 7:54 AM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm assuming Silver is using some kind of "house effect" adjustment, because the poll itself shows a 15-point lead, 46-31.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:54 AM on July 30, 2016

Bernie would have won without election fraud, eh? Then how come every single national poll during the primaries had Clinton leading Sanders by roughly 5-15 points? There was no fraud. More people preferred Clinton. Full stop.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 7:55 AM on July 30, 2016 [20 favorites]

He's saying it's a 10-point bounce, not a 10-point lead.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 7:57 AM on July 30, 2016 [7 favorites]

I wish the Clinton campaign needed, like, something alphabetized, or wanted a big stack of boxes moved from point A to point B, or something. I would be all over that.

They actually do need people to do data entry. There are usually a ton of volunteers to do data, because a lot of people don't enjoy talking to people, but this early they actually might appreciate data volunteers.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:00 AM on July 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

Duh *smacks forehead*

Good catch, thanks.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:01 AM on July 30, 2016

That poll puts Trump only four points over the crazification factor of 27%.
posted by octothorpe at 8:01 AM on July 30, 2016 [12 favorites]

Thanks everyone. Octothorpe, I am absolutely NOT interested in "refighting" the primaries, I am interested in knowing whether we have anything to worry about w/r/t damage to the Clinton campaign.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 8:01 AM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

ExistentialDread posted this piece from Politico in the thread last night but I'm reposting it because some people might not have read it and if that is you put down your knitting and click right over there.

On the day of the speech, he grabbed his worn copy of the Constitution and slipped it in his jacket pocket. He carries it regularly, especially when he travels. “It’s my favorite document. I wanted to use it because I wanted to highlight the protections that immigrants have in this country.”

Walking on stage he knew the pocket-sized book was going to come out of his pocket before the evening was done.

“The main purpose of my speech was to bring awareness about the constitutional protections that each citizen of the United States enjoys and to try to prevent the scare that immigrant communities are feeling about the misinformation that one candidate had been pandering. So the effort was to put these worried minds at ease by asking that question: ‘Have you even read the constitution?’”

Khizr Khan wasn't waving that pocket Constitution in Donald Trump's face. He was brandishing it for us, for these traumatized and anxious immigrant communities wondering if this is our home.

Khizr Khan says: according to this document, you belong here.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:11 AM on July 30, 2016 [121 favorites]

Oh man, that Xeni observation about domestic violence got me right in the gut, I have a violent ex with a violent father,. It's been easy to parse all along (I mean since the 80's) that Trump was a misogynist but until I saw that tweet, I never realized that yes, that's the specific misogynist language of domestic violence.
posted by crush-onastick at 8:13 AM on July 30, 2016 [16 favorites]

I bet if we got access to RNC and right wing super-pac emails we would see there was a much bigger conspiracy to push Bernie Sanders.

Vast, even.
posted by thelonius at 8:19 AM on July 30, 2016 [7 favorites]

Sam Wang, A Local Experiment In Crowd Wisdom - "I have finally converted my statistical politics hobby into material gain."
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:21 AM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Wang is now in the lovely, snuggly pocket of big sweatshirt.
posted by howfar at 8:26 AM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

On the fire marshall thing: It makes a lot more sense to have a slightly too small space than a slightly too large space. The optics of a room bursting at capacity with crowds outside who want to come in is much, much better than empty spaces. Trump knows this. Trump's campaign knows this. But Trump's only playbook is attack, blame others, attack, followed by a bit of blaming others. It's the only story he knows, and his base loves it, and he lives for their love, so why stop now?
posted by aspo at 8:27 AM on July 30, 2016 [6 favorites]

Word from a local carpenter/set-builder is that Trump will be appearing in MPLS tonight at the Pantages theatre. They weren't told anything but it was pretty obvious what they were doing. He was wondering the best way to get the word out.
posted by localhuman at 8:28 AM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Word from a local carpenter/set-builder is that Trump will be appearing in MPLS tonight at the Pantages theatre. They weren't told anything but it was pretty obvious what they were doing. He was wondering the best way to get the word out.

Tell him to call local media. They'd love a scoop like that.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:29 AM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

If Trump is willing to waste a campaign day in a state where he has .0000001 percent chance of winning....well, go right ahead.
posted by gimonca at 8:35 AM on July 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

Adding to what gusottertrout said above, there's just one more important thing: mix up idealism with some straight pragmatism reminding that Bernie already managed to make the DNC take his proposals seriously, despite being an outsider candidate most people didn't even know two years ago (as opposed to Hillary, who's a global public figure for 25 years or so). The only way to lead party and country to Sanders' vision is to back Hillary now and making sure she and the Democrats stay on this course and are accountable for these promises. Sanderism only dies if they give up on the only party that would put him close to the WH. If this was accomplished in just two years from the ground up, make them imagine what could be done in four or eight, slowly building political clout inside the party. Sanders is not becoming president, but he has put the foot in the door so his ideals could. And why let this all go to waste?
posted by lmfsilva at 8:45 AM on July 30, 2016 [19 favorites]

If Trump is willing to waste a campaign day in a state where he has .0000001 percent chance of winning....well, go right ahead.

Is he really going to base his itinerary around places he can commute to?

I guess stranger things have happened in the Trump campaign.
posted by howfar at 8:58 AM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

Sanderism

oh god no please let's don't
posted by dersins at 8:59 AM on July 30, 2016 [12 favorites]

A 10-point bounce would be in line with how convention bounces worked before the Internet era, but it'd be extraordinary now. Still, I'd look to this as an outlier. I think her bounce will be bigger than Trump's, but I was thinking more like 5-7 points.
posted by dw at 9:00 AM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Was there any word on how many people were turned away at the Colorado event? Trump has a long history of saying there are thousands of people outside his rallies trying to get in when in reality there are a few dozen.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:03 AM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

oh god no please let's don't
If you want to catch fish, use a bait. Call it sanderism, social democracy, anything. But give those on the left something to believe they have a platform in place inside the party.

But nah, if Trump wins, it's was the berniebros/left fault, amirite?
posted by lmfsilva at 9:04 AM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Very soothing/reassuring: checking in every so often with electoral-vote.com, which today shows Clinton at 284.
posted by mothershock at 9:07 AM on July 30, 2016

Pence says if Trump wins they will abolish Roe v. Wade
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 9:09 AM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Interesting poll from RABA with some suggestive things about the bounce. Basically, the convention seems to have gone over well with everyone, but voters over 60 were most likely to think it was a success. (46% of voters over 60 thought it was a success, compared to 21% who thought it was a failure and 20% who said it was neither.) They're also the age-group who are most likely to say they're paying close attention to the race, most likely to say they're voting for Clinton, and least likely to say that they're not sure who they're going to vote for. I think the convention bounce may be that the DNC convinced older voters, who were more likely to watch, to vote for Clinton. And that's good, because the olds turn out reliably.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 9:09 AM on July 30, 2016 [21 favorites]

This story (of Hillary Clinton, as senator, helping a man manage payments for care for bladder cancer) is making the rounds. One thing that's particularly troubling to me is this sentence, though: " My friends--again female--at the Museum kept my cancer a secret, and probably saved my job."

I really hope that when Hillary Clinton is president, we can do a better job ensuring that nobody needs to worry about losing their job for having cancer.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:09 AM on July 30, 2016 [19 favorites]

But give those on the left something to believe they have a platform in place inside the party.

How about the actual, like, y'know, platform, which is the most progressive in Dem party history, and, as has been noted, has been called "80% of what we wanted" by Sanders insiders.

But nah, if Trump wins, it's was the berniebros/left fault, amirite?

No, it would be almost entirely the fault of the the idiots who voted for Trump.

But it is undeniable that some part of that blame would fall also on the idiots who refused to vote against him--or voted against him in utterly ineffectual ways--because reasons.
posted by dersins at 9:10 AM on July 30, 2016 [13 favorites]

Trump has no campaign plan. How he decides what he's going to say, where he'll go, what he'll pretend to care about next ... it's just about random. If he wins this it proves either that campaigning doesn't actually matter or that anti-campaigning will work at least once.

I think the man is at the onset of a serious mental breakdown. I see (to pick a number out of the air) a 1/4 chance of the following:

-- Trump decides to pick some very strange, esoteric fight that no one cares about. A bit like a combination of his multi-day beef against Judge Curiel + his current rage at the fire marshal. But it won't even be a political opponent, it will be some peripheral figure. He'll escalate his rage, a few surrogates will gamely try to stand up for his outrage, but as it goes on and on he'll be all alone.
-- He'll start not showing up for rallies, go radio silence for days at a time, call in to talk shows and ramble about irrelevant nonsense, and other erratic behaviors. The press will start to wonder if Trump is actually cracking up, and may even at least whisper about prescription drug abuse.
-- He will actually, genuinely threaten direct physical harm on a woman. My bet is not Hillary; he can remember (barely) not to physically threaten her. Maybe Ted Cruz' wife. A reporter. Something along the lines of "you oughta see how they'd treat you in prison, honey, a lot worse than I would. You'd get what you deserve."
-- A few surrogates and reluctant endorsers drop out and denounce him. Maybe a big name like Laura Bush, perhaps her husband as well.
-- Polls begin to suggest an actual free-fall.
-- Trump cancels travel and debates, says the system is too rigged, he's going to do it his way and speak directly to the American people. He's discovered you can have a YouTube "channel" and he's going to name it TrumpTV, touting this as a major new thing. He starts to air some very strange videos, remixes of past speeches with weird music and arbitrary facts and threats.
-- But he can't resist rallies, so from now on they'll all happen on his property, in the lobbies of his hotels or on the grounds of Mar-a-Lago.
-- With polls dropping and attacks intensifying, Trump lapses into some actual flippetty-bippy-boo speech that doesn't make sense no matter how many times you replay it (or reread the tweet). The campaign now moves to whether Trump is literally mentally unfit to serve, and if/how the GOP can scramble for a replacement.
-- VP debate goes on (yawn). One presidential debate is aired with Hillary "debating" an empty lectern. Trump tries to preempt the broadcast with footage of himself in his office at Trump tower, looking like one of those bizarre late-night preachers you used to find on UHF.
-- Trump actually shows up for one debate, doesn't drool on himself, barely says anything that can either be considered factual or not, but gets initial approval from the press for sounding roughly coherent. The next morning, though, Trump sabotages his moment of "triumph" with more self-sabotage at a "press conference". Snapshot polls from the debates show people were impressed with Clinton and scared by Trump.
-- All but the hardest of the die-hards have withdrawn their endorsements by now. The GOP kicks around drafting Paul Ryan but discovers it isn't possible. A less deranged but no less fringey candidate — Ted Cruz-like — becomes the write-in of choice, and maybe gets on a few state ballots as an independent. Call him Xian.
-- Hillary wins: Hillary 51%, Trump 31%, Xian 14%, other 4%.

Like I said, about 1/4 odds in my mind. I'd also say about 4% chance Trump OD's on prescription meds during the campaign
posted by argybarg at 9:10 AM on July 30, 2016 [31 favorites]

You don't even have to concede that Hillary's not a crook.

As the French said, "Votez escroc, pas facho!" When the socialists lost they didn't take their ball and go home. They came out in greater numbers to make sure Le Pen wouldn't even get to sniff the seat of the presidency. They walked into election booths with clothes pegs on their noses.

Trump can't just lose by only getting 268 EVs. He needs to be beaten so soundly that Republican leaders won't let a petty demagogue try a stunt like this ever again.
posted by Talez at 9:15 AM on July 30, 2016 [20 favorites]

Maybe that's something we could start? Clothespins for Hillary: Because Trump is worse!

Go into the voting booth with a peg on your nose to emphasise how much you don't like her but you dislike Trump even more.
posted by Talez at 9:19 AM on July 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

That does not strike me as a strategy likely to inspire.
posted by dersins at 9:20 AM on July 30, 2016 [25 favorites]

Clothespins for Hillary: Because Trump is worse!

No thanks.
posted by argybarg at 9:20 AM on July 30, 2016 [20 favorites]

Go into the voting booth with a peg on your nose to emphasise how much you don't like her but you dislike Trump even more.

Ummm.
posted by Mooski at 9:20 AM on July 30, 2016

The socialists did it when they voted for Chirac.
posted by Talez at 9:21 AM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

They walked into election booths with clothes pegs on their noses.
Maybe that's something we could start? Clothespins for Hillary: Because Trump is worse!

I love this.
posted by dis_integration at 9:21 AM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Clothespin Campaign here's a good article. I think it actually might be effective at mobilizing young people who think that their vote is some kind expression of faith and not just what it is, a vote.
posted by dis_integration at 9:24 AM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

John Cole: All The Good Shit Belongs to US

Now first things first. Dems were always patriotic- it was Republicans who confused patriotism with just agreeing with whatever bullshit the government said while we rushed into war and had their heads so far up Rush Limbaugh’s ass they couldn’t see straight.

At the same time, this was the most overt display of patriotism I have ever witnessed, but without what I felt was the jingoism of the right. And I gotta add, I find overt patriotism unsettling and uncomfortable outside World Cup events and the Olympics. I’m more of a hang a flag out front of the house and watch white people dance awkwardly on the PBS 4th of July specials than I am the tattoo an eagle on my chest and scream “USA!! USA!!” while pissing Budweiser on a stack of back issues of Le Monde. But that’s just me.

[...]

That’s right. We Democrats get ALL THE GOOD SHIT NOW. We get the most progressive platform and agenda in my lifetime, we get to cheer for our troops and say NO MORE STUPID WARS. We get to stand up and say Black Lives Matter and thank the cops who risk their lives because we’re fucking smart enough to hold two god damned ideas in our heads. We get to stand up for a woman’s right to choose and gay people to marry and still get to rock the house as Rev. Barber brings down the fucking roof in the name of the almighty.

We get it all. We get all the good stuff. The whole kit and kaboodle. The Republicans get Trump and his dingy digits and we get to make them wear it and own it. Progressives didn’t lose the Democratic party. Republicans lost their fucking minds.

Sucks to be them. We get all the balloons, too.

posted by tonycpsu at 9:25 AM on July 30, 2016 [90 favorites]

I really dislike the clothespin thing. I don't feel that way about Hillary, and I don't think anything good comes of pandering to people who do.
posted by argybarg at 9:26 AM on July 30, 2016 [43 favorites]

God forbid that she be a normal candidate that decent people could just vote for without making an enormous show about how awful she is.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:28 AM on July 30, 2016 [86 favorites]

We know how most of the commenters here feel but a lot of people do feel that way about Hillary and they have legitimate reasons for it but are still holding their noses at the polls. The good that comes from "pandering" would be a victory for the democrats.
posted by dis_integration at 9:28 AM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

I really dislike the clothespin thing. I don't feel that way about Hillary, and I don't think anything good comes of pandering to people who do.

Then don't do it. This is aimed at Busters.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:29 AM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

I really hate the clothespin thing.
posted by octothorpe at 9:29 AM on July 30, 2016 [9 favorites]

The socialists did it when they voted for Chirac.

To cast one's vote is to participate in the democratic processes of society. It is by its very nature an action that says "I am part of this larger thing, and I will do my part in this larger thing, because it is important."

To turn the act of voting into a self-indulgent performance is to say "I am more important than this larger thing."
posted by dersins at 9:29 AM on July 30, 2016 [24 favorites]

Surely it'd be more effective to point out that Hilary has basically adopted all of Sanders' platform, look at that speech, she laid out easily the most progressive vision of any major party candidate, ever. Clothespins aren't going to inspire anyone to hold her to that vision and get involved in down ticket races for even more progressive candidates.

Really, name something in Bernie's platform that she didn't hit in her acceptance speech. Free college, taxes, Wall St regulation, money in politics, maybe she missed opposition to the TPP, but that's about it. Berners need to realize that they won 75% of the battle to this point, but we're only like 6% of the way through the war.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:30 AM on July 30, 2016 [9 favorites]

Me either. I like Hillary just damn fine. I think that is, for lack of a better word, an extremely adolescent thing to do. Besides, have you put a clothespin on your nose lately? I tried it when I was a kid because it looks funny in a cartoon, but those bastards pinch hard.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:30 AM on July 30, 2016 [11 favorites]

Yeah, that's as stupid and childish as the "fart in" idea. No thanks.
posted by Roommate at 9:31 AM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

To turn the act of voting into a self-indulgent performance is to say "I am more important than this larger thing."

Or it's a way of giving expression to a political viewpoint that is lost in the voting process? A way for the left to say: we're not going to vote Trump in out of spite, but we're a voice to be listened to? It's not self-indulgent to have a political viewpoint that differs from yours.
posted by dis_integration at 9:31 AM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

they have legitimate reasons for it

I don't accept your premise. I think most of those people are speaking out of unexamined sexism. They would not be speaking this way about Biden.
posted by OmieWise at 9:32 AM on July 30, 2016 [35 favorites]

You're talking about Socialists in a multi-party system. We are not a multi-party system.

"Voting someone whose stink disgusts me" is not something you can convince a lot of BoB's to do. Nor should you.

Wear a bird. Show you love Bernie still.
posted by argybarg at 9:33 AM on July 30, 2016 [6 favorites]

a political viewpoint that is lost in the voting process?

Other than almost all the damn platform and her acceptance speech?
posted by chris24 at 9:33 AM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

A way for the left to say: we're not going to vote Trump in out of spite, but we're a voice to be listened to?

BUT THE DEMOCRATS HAVE LISTENED. Look at the platform. What will it take to satisfy these people? Instead of free college you get paid to go? Instead of just repealing Citizen's United we set the people who drafted it on fire?

You can be farther-left than Clinton and you can even be skeptical about her sincerity on these things (I am not), but it it transparently obvious that the left IS being listened to, to a greater degree than ever in our lifetimes. Take the fucking victory. Then push for her to actually implement this stuff. But don't stamp your feet and insist you aren't being given things that you literally have been given.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:34 AM on July 30, 2016 [98 favorites]

The more photos there are of doofuses coming out of polling places with clothespins on their nose or tape over their mouths or SILENCED ALL MY LIFE shirts or whatever, the more the media will de-legitimize her presidency and the harder it will be to actually pass an increase to the minimum wage, much less new taxes for rich jerks or expensive new programs. It is a terrible bad awful idea. Doubleplusungood.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:35 AM on July 30, 2016 [79 favorites]

I don't accept your premise. I think most of those people are speaking out of unexamined sexism. They would not be speaking this way about Biden.

Can we not go through this over and over again? Maybe they would and maybe they wouldn't. It's unhelpful. It is really possible to be unhappy with Clinton without sexism being the reason.
posted by dis_integration at 9:37 AM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

BUT THE DEMOCRATS HAVE LISTENED. Look at the platform. What will it take to satisfy these people? Instead of free college you get paid to go? Instead of just repealing Citizen's United we set the people who drafted it on fire?

They honest to god don't believe her, that she's just saying whatever she needs to in order to get elected.
posted by Talez at 9:37 AM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

It is really possible to be unhappy with Clinton without sexism being the reason.

When she gives people basically everything they ask of her and they still hate her, it causes people to wonder.
posted by chris24 at 9:38 AM on July 30, 2016 [55 favorites]

For every leftier-than-thou Buster type that's moved by that kind of stunt, there'd probably be half a dozen or more people who'd see it as reinforcing the negatives about Hillary that her campaign has gone to great lengths to overcome. Why squander Hillary's more inclusive message by trying to double down on appealing to the segment of Bernie's faction that's too good for Bernie when he's already said they should vote for her?
posted by tonycpsu at 9:38 AM on July 30, 2016 [20 favorites]

Wear a bird. Show you love Bernie still.

Yeah, I'm much more able to get behind saying "I love Bernie" while I'm voting than saying "This woman revolts me, but I'm voting for her anyways."

Kinda keeps with the Love Trumps Hate narrative too, ya know?
posted by Mooski at 9:38 AM on July 30, 2016 [10 favorites]

I mean, you can't undo the coup in Honduras through the DNC platform.
posted by dis_integration at 9:38 AM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Or it's a way of giving expression to a political viewpoint that is lost in the voting process?

If that viewpoint is "Even though her platform is almost entirely what I want, Clinton still stinks," then I am perfectly content to have it go unrepresented in the voting process.
posted by dersins at 9:38 AM on July 30, 2016 [10 favorites]

It is really possible to be unhappy with Clinton without sexism being the reason.

I'm finding this increasingly unlikely, actually.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:39 AM on July 30, 2016 [37 favorites]

They honest to god don't believe her, that she's just saying whatever she needs to in order to get elected.

Even if that were true - name the last election where any candidate felt they needed to pander to the left like that. It represents a sea change that is broader than Clinton and the only way to take advantage of it and keep that momentum going it to elect the person who is at least bothering to pander.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:39 AM on July 30, 2016 [23 favorites]

Wear a bird. Show you love Bernie still.

I'm picturing, like, a cardstock bird with sticker backing on the feet that could perch on a Clinton pin. I'd wear one of those.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:42 AM on July 30, 2016 [11 favorites]

-- He will actually, genuinely threaten direct physical harm on a woman. My bet is not Hillary; he can remember (barely) not to physically threaten her. Maybe Ted Cruz' wife. A reporter. Something along the lines of "you oughta see how they'd treat you in prison, honey, a lot worse than I would. You'd get what you deserve."

You guys are just writing bad fanfiction now. This election is melting people's brains into goo.
posted by stavrogin at 9:42 AM on July 30, 2016 [7 favorites]

When 73% of Bernie or Busters love Biden who is practically her idealogical and political clone, but 91% hate her, I'm going to go out on a limb and say some sexism might be the cause.
posted by chris24 at 9:43 AM on July 30, 2016 [120 favorites]

Corey Robin: Philadelphia Stories: From Reagan to Trump to the DNC

So does any of this matter? Why do I keep harping on the non-newness of Donald Trump, why do I keep resurrecting the multiple precedents for his candidacy against those who would argue for its novelty and innovations?
Part of the reason is that it is an offense against history and memory to pretend that the GOP of the past was somehow a party of reasonable men, clear-headed and basically decent moderates who were taking the car out for a Sunday spin when it all of a sudden it got hijacked by neighborhood toughs and crazed yahoos.

This is not a new argument with me. I’ve been trying for years to explain to dubious liberals and skeptical leftists that Trumpism is what this party is all about, that the “rational, prudential conservatives they think they know are in fact ultra-revanchist songstresses of domination and violence.”

posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:43 AM on July 30, 2016 [12 favorites]

I'm picturing, like, a cardstock bird with sticker backing on the feet that could perch on a Clinton pin. I'd wear one of those.

Or a t-shirt / pin of a Bernie bird wearing a Hillary pin.
posted by dersins at 9:43 AM on July 30, 2016 [13 favorites]

It makes a lot more sense to have a slightly too small space than a slightly too large space. The optics of a room bursting at capacity with crowds outside who want to come in is much, much better than empty spaces. Trump knows this. Trump's campaign knows this.

You'd think so, but compare pictures of the floor at the RNC to the DNC. The RNC setup had huge aisles and the carpeting was bright red, making the floor look emptier and making any empty seats stand out more. A bigger stage could have made the floor seating area more dense and look more full and darker carpet would have helped. It was the first thing I noticed, I kept wonder when the floor was going to fill up but it was already full.
posted by peeedro at 9:44 AM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

So what you are telling me is that the Busters said "We want XYZ."

Hillary listened and gave them XYZ.

Now they don't believe her?

Short of inventing a time machine so she can go back in time and make completely different choices and be a completely different person, I think she has lost them. Fine. Move on. Let them vote for Trump or not vote or vote for Stein. I don't believe that it is going to make much difference.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:45 AM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

Jesus, can we give Bernie/Hillary a break for more than five minutes? Instead, let's contemplate how Black Women's Emotional Labor Saved the DNC.
posted by TwoStride at 9:46 AM on July 30, 2016 [49 favorites]

Well just got unfriended by that same person whose "Bernie Could have Won" think tanks post I questioned.
posted by mrzarquon at 9:47 AM on July 30, 2016 [6 favorites]

Biden isn't really close to Hilary actually, he was the corporate Senator From Delaware for 35 years before Obama came along.

So I don't get the Biden love at all. It'd be like Bernie voters yearning for Mark Warner or Claire McCaskill. Berners and other lefties forget his actual record when he had more responsibility than grinning in the background all the time on C-Span.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:48 AM on July 30, 2016 [10 favorites]

stavrogin, I think those are actually a series of pretty good guesses, although too optimistic. I think Manafort will control the business a little better, and Democrats will fumble opportunities, and I don't dare reassure myself there will be a landslide or even a consistent fall for Trump. But, yes, this is melting my brains, I will flat admit it. I wish I could go in for early voting and have myself heavily sedated for Election Day.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:48 AM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

When 75% of Bernie or Busters LOVE Biden who is practically her idealogical and political clone, but hate her, I'm going to go out on a limb and say some sexism might be the cause.

I actually want to address this a little - I strongly suspect that for most of these people, the issue isn't so much a general sexist attitude, so much as it is an unthinking absorption of anti-Clinton slanders, which have been going around for so long and are so embedded in the culture that people generally don't even bother examining them. The fact that many of those slanders are based in sexism is probably going right over the heads of people who were born after she was already on the national stage, and have no context for it.

Basically - they think she's corrupt because they've been told she's corrupt, and the fact that the 'she's corrupt' meme has its origins in sexist attacks on her character is lost, because on the surface 'corruption' isn't a gendered trait and women can be corrupt.

None of this is to say that these people aren't being assholes, or that they don't have unexamined sexist attitudes of their very own, but I think it's more complex than just directly sexist attitudes on the part of the BoBs.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:49 AM on July 30, 2016 [50 favorites]

A few comments deleted. We've been around this exact track (debating over anti-Hillary diehards on the left) many times, at this point please stop this go-round and move on to anything else.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:52 AM on July 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

But nah, if Trump wins, it's was the berniebros/left fault, amirite?

If Trump wins, just like when W did, there will be plenty of blame to go around. Voters of every stripe, Hillary, the third parties, the media, the Internet, the weather, we were all here, participants. Oh, if only some county in a swing state hadn't written in "Lizard People" in large numbers. If only reporters italicized every lie Trump told when quoting him. If only there hadn't been a climate change fueled Halloween blizzard that buried the blue counties in Pennsylvania under 2 feet of snow and ice.

Oh, but it's unfair to pin the blame for a national catastrophe on this one little group of people. They were uninformed. They were desperate. They were angry. They were just doing their jobs. If something like this could happen, it must have been inevitable. The important thing now is to focus on the future. Pointing fingers gets us nowhere. Focus on the future.

Trying to find a place to stand where your shoes won't get muddy in the rain won't matter much when the levy breaks.
posted by GameDesignerBen at 9:54 AM on July 30, 2016 [8 favorites]

But why would she lie? It's a great platform. She has a good chance - perhaps the best chance. The best! - for many decades to implement it, and my god would she go down in history if that bet pays off. Plus, unless you really don't believe she has spent her life trying to help people, an awful lot of people would be helped and what else does she want to do?

Maybe she's deceiving because she's secretly in thrall to Big Money?

A saner, more progressive, more equal company is good for Big Money in the long - and even the medium - term. You get a better workforce, you get more options, you get a stronger local economy, you get a better base for exports. It may be impossible to break the psychology of large corporates that their sole reason to exist is to make as much money as possible for themselves, and to lock out regulation and government from tampering with this process, and I'm sure that there will always be Murdochs and Kochs and the other members of the golden reptile house who actually want political power without the tedious business of getting voted for, but that's not the case fo every billionaire or large corporate organisation.

The new economy is aggressively socially liberal - look at the way the techs (and not only the techs) react to state regressive laws. They have an instinctive, 'shareholder value' driven attitude to minimising their taxation exposure, because that's what you do when you're a big corporate, but if you and your competitors are in the same boat then you don't lose competitive advantage if the tax level shifts a bit.

I hope that the top donors - and those who aren't - from Corporate America are being brought on board with this sort of argument - and to be honest, if they don't, then they're going to lose influence after a Clinton victory (and if they're going to be pro-Trump, then good luck to them. It's not as if Clinton is determined to take their toys away - this is not a rabidly anti-corporate platform.

I could be wrong. Clinton could be lying, because she wants to get to the Oval Office to do something other than what she says she wants to do. But I'm damned if I can see what that might be.
posted by Devonian at 9:58 AM on July 30, 2016 [10 favorites]

United States of Extremism

The entirety of the Republican platform is fear, and it is this fear that engenders and empowers psychosis. This is, to be sure, not the first time that it has been suggested that the modern world at large was a source of mental illness. From Deleuze and Guattari’s association of schizophrenia with the structure of capitalist society to the (much weirder and more violent) activities of Wolfgang Huber’s Sozialistisches Patientenkollektiv, the association of madness and the modern order has a considerable lineage. But the idea of a major social institution devoted to the promotion of psychosis as a basis for social organization is, to my mind, novel.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:00 AM on July 30, 2016 [7 favorites]

Ya know, I get it, the Hillary hate. I do. Back in '93-'94, when I was in the Navy and fairly conservative in the way new military kids usually (but not always) are, I heard constantly about the new Democratic President and how his wife, the First Lady of the United States, was going to try to push through a Health Care plan that was going to hose up everything. The story being pushed was that an unelected woman was attempting to wear her husband's rank (a story that gets traction pretty easily in the military) and break the healthcare system even as her husband attempted to break 'military cohesion' by allowing openly gay members to serve.

Now here's the thing: once you buy into that story, once you accept it and make it part of your belief system, it is so. fucking. HARD. to let it go, even in the face of contradictory evidence, even when you've accepted that the point of view that allowed you to buy into the story in the first place was flawed. Because it not only means accepting you were wrong, it means accepting you were hoodwinked, and that you helped the process along with your own biases.

Hillary Clinton is a lawyer, and a politician, and many other things, and she is among the best there has ever been of all of them, not in spite of being a woman, but in many cases because she is a woman, and it is a goddamn shame that while she visits with suddenly childless mothers and undocumented workers, the narrative against her has been so effective that most men think of Whitewater, Benghazi or (for chrissakes) a semen-stained dress when her name comes up.

I don't think you have to put Clinton on a pedestal, but it's instructive to try and remember where the story you've got on her comes from.
posted by Mooski at 10:01 AM on July 30, 2016 [92 favorites]

(Re: why is wade into debunking someone's sources for the Hillary stole the election: made up cases of election fraud has been the tool of the right to enforce/justify voter ID laws and delegitimization of leftist candidates in the eyes of the public. Does anyone remember ACORN?)
posted by mrzarquon at 10:02 AM on July 30, 2016 [8 favorites]

Elle: Symone Sanders on Life After Bernie and why #sheswithher.: MH: Last time we spoke, you told me about some really frustrating experiences you had on the road that you felt were definitely related to being a woman of color. Do you want to talk a little bit about those?

SS: There were multiple instances. There were places where I literally I couldn't get in. I would go to the door, the staff entrance, and people would say, "This is staff only." I'd have to explain to them that I was staff, and they would question me. I would have to say, "I'm the national press secretary. Did you watch me on the news the other day?" It was consistently happening. There was one week where it happened the entire week.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:04 AM on July 30, 2016 [31 favorites]

I was going to write something funny here but I'm not feeling too humorous at the moment. Donald Trump to Father of Fallen Soldier: 'I’ve Made a Lot of Sacrifices'

In his first response to a searing charge from bereaved Army father Khizr Khan that he’d “sacrificed nothing” for his country, Donald Trump claimed that he had in fact sacrificed by employing “thousands and thousands of people.” He also suggested that Khan’s wife didn’t speak because she was forbidden to as a Muslim and questioned whether Khan’s words were his own.

“Who wrote that? Did Hillary's script writers write it?” Trump said in an interview with ABC News’ George Stephanopoulos. “I think I've made a lot of sacrifices. I work very, very hard.”

Imagine all the snarky things that I'm thinking now because they are just shrieking in my head but I'm going to refrain from writing them down.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 10:05 AM on July 30, 2016 [38 favorites]

the (much weirder and more violent) activities of Wolfgang Huber’s Sozialistisches Patientenkollektiv

I feel compelled to point out that the SPK was framed
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:07 AM on July 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

BREAKING: US judge in Wisconsin throws out range of restrictive election laws passed by GOP-led Legislature.

I could feel it in my bones with the NC ruling but when I read this I heard legendary Lakers announcer, the late Chick Hearn yelling, "It's over!"

They know the only way they can keep winning is by suppressing votes, we know the only way they can keep winning is by suppressing votes, and they know we know the only way they can keep winning is by suppressing votes.

They haven't had winning ideas or intentions for a long time. What they had were the keys to the voting booths, and the grown-up finally took their keys away. It will the first time in a while when "Get out the vote" doesn't mean "Get out the vote and hope there's a way to actually vote." It's not about whose message resonates better, the Ds message resonates just fine when compared to the Rs. I think we're going to see record turnout and possible record landslide victory. If we work hard I think it's all going to be rosy-dory.
posted by Room 641-A at 10:12 AM on July 30, 2016 [13 favorites]

Someone at work told me Wikileaks just dumped some State Department emails last night? Is this true? I haven't really the time to research this since I'm at work.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 10:13 AM on July 30, 2016

First it was Donald Trump yesterday, now this morning the RNC criticized "the entire [debate] system."

Trump's primary complaint in his tweet was that two of the debates are scheduled on the same nights as NFL games.

That's true — but it was also true in 2012. Sporting events, religious holidays, and other factors cause scheduling headaches every four years.

The first debate of 2016, slated for September 26, coincides with "Monday Night Football" on ESPN.

The vice presidential debate is scheduled one week later on October 4, a Tuesday.

The second presidential debate, on October 9, coincides with "Sunday Night Football" on NBC.

The final debate is slated for October 19, a Wednesday.

NFL games are played on Sundays, Mondays and Thursdays in the fall. Fridays and Saturdays are effectively ruled out because TV viewing is lower on weekend evenings. That only leaves Tuesdays and Wednesdays.

One complication was Yom Kippur on Tuesday, October 11 and Wednesday, October 12.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 10:16 AM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

The second presidential debate, on October 9, coincides with "Sunday Night Football" on NBC.

NBC isn't going to show football that night, so it doesn't coincide.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:18 AM on July 30, 2016

What Happened to WikiLeaks?
posted by Artw at 10:18 AM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Someone at work told me Wikileaks just dumped some State Department emails last night? Is this true?

Given that there is no mention of this from CNN, the NY Times, or the Washington Post, or at Google News, I'm going to guess your coworker is either confused about the stories relating to a Clinton campaign database being hacked, or is just straight making shit up.
posted by dersins at 10:19 AM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

It is really possible to be unhappy with Clinton without sexism being the reason.

Hillary Clinton has been getting called a liar, a murderer, a dirty crook on national television with great regularity since 1991 or so. If you're under 40, that means that since you were a child, you've been stewing in a media environment that questions the integrity of this one specific woman. Even if you never bought into any of the individual charges thrown against her, it's hard for me to imagine that this wouldn't lodge in your brain at some point.

I don't necessarily think that all people who have a gut feeling of Hillary as untrustworthy are being sexist, but I do think that many people have been hearing her integrity questioned constantly for 25 years. When you learn something you dislike about her, it gets interpreted as confirmation that she's a slippery fink at her core, because people have been telling you that's the case for 25 years. With an unknown candidate, you're more likely to withhold judgement, to see whether their bad behavior is a one-off, or endemic.

As I've thought more about the weird rootlessness of the suspicions I've felt about Hillary, I've tried to step back and treat her like she's just introducing herself for the first time. I want to allow her to have evolved on issues, and to not be a prisoner of what Rush Limbaugh was telling my great uncle in 1994.
posted by GameDesignerBen at 10:20 AM on July 30, 2016 [67 favorites]

"Pressed by Stephanopoulos to name the sacrifices he’d made for his country, Trump said: “I think I've made a lot of sacrifices. I work very, very hard. I've created thousands and thousands of jobs, tens of thousands of jobs, built great structures. I've had tremendous success. I think I've done a lot.”

That's Trump, equating having hired people with having his son die in war. I know, I know, preaching to the converted and all, but I mean, how can this guy be worshipped by so many people?
posted by aspo at 10:22 AM on July 30, 2016 [40 favorites]

What Mooski said, basically.
posted by GameDesignerBen at 10:22 AM on July 30, 2016

The problem with making predictions about Trump's future behavior is that the Law of Conservation of Absurdity (apparently enacted sometime between mid-2015 and early 2016) forces the universe to compensate for any such predictions by making him even more ridiculous and extreme.

Consider: at one point it seemed vaguely plausible that Trump might be preferable to the rest of the Republican field of candidates, because at the very least he was known to have held liberal-friendly positions in the past, and occasionally went out of his way to counter Republican orthodoxy (Planned Parenthood is good; Iraq War was bad, etc.). And then people started in with the "if Trump says X now, why, he'll probably be saying Y in three months," and here we are.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 10:22 AM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

There's a story trending now that Assange is waving his dick around, saying he has more. He might. I'm done caring until I see what and why. The guy is basically Milo with more skills.
posted by Countess Elena at 10:23 AM on July 30, 2016 [10 favorites]

What Happened to WikiLeaks?

Short answer: Assange turned out to be the opportunist piece of shit many of us suspected him to be from the outset.
posted by dersins at 10:23 AM on July 30, 2016 [34 favorites]

He's also been trapped inside a tiny little embassy for years at this point and hasn't gotten a breath of fresh air in all that time. I wouldn't be surprised if it's actually driven him a little bit nuts. It would me.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:27 AM on July 30, 2016 [7 favorites]

plus he's there because he's avoiding rape charges. Some rapists have issues with women, I'm sure.
posted by Artw at 10:29 AM on July 30, 2016 [43 favorites]

He's also been trapped inside a tiny little embassy for years at this point

He has not "been trapped," he is in a position almost wholly of his own making.

If he is "trapped" at all, it is that he chose to trap himself because he views that as preferable to defending himself in court against the accusations from which he is hiding.

I have zero sympathy for him.
posted by dersins at 10:33 AM on July 30, 2016 [28 favorites]

He has not "been trapped," he is in a position almost wholly of his own making.

This is semantics. He can be a total monster asshole who got himself into this situation and still be 'trapped,' geez.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:36 AM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Couple comments deleted, let's really not have a Julian Assange referendum in here.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 10:43 AM on July 30, 2016 [7 favorites]

For those worried about what comes after Trump: I'm worried too, but I'm not worried about a Tom Cotton or whatever. Trump was able to break the rules and win the nomination not just because he tapped into a latent white supremacist authoritarian impulse (though that was surely part of it!) but because his celebrity and access to wealth allowed him to circumvent the normal party vetting process.

Primary candidates usually burn out because they can't, or stop being able to, raise enough money to keep going. So they can't buy ad time, hire field staffers, etc. But Trump was able to float on his initial loan for a long time, and we all know he didn't need ads because his celebrity granted him so much free coverage.

It was reported yesterday (thought it was in this thread but a quick search says no) that the Kochs wouldn't even meet with Trump. Guys like the Kochs "invest" in Republicans because they see them as the best business deals. A populist fascist is not going to be a good business deal for these guys because they rely on the US being able to trade freely with other nations.

I can't believe I'm naming the Koch Brothers as a safeguard for our democracy. Weird, weird times. To be clear, I'm sure they don't actually give a shit about democracy and have vigorously funded efforts to weaken voting rights, etc. But I think actual fascism would be too much of a risk for most guys like that.

*I say "access to wealth" because who knows how much actual wealth Trump has, vs. what he's just borrowed?
posted by lunasol at 10:43 AM on July 30, 2016 [13 favorites]

I am addicted to these threads. Thanks, guys.
posted by maurreen at 10:53 AM on July 30, 2016 [14 favorites]

What could Assange have? The unfair treatment of Bernie by the DNC was damaging, but it's also an old story, unless he somehow connects Clinton herself to it. Maybe some strategy emails about dealing with the Sec. State scandal? Something else entirely?
posted by codacorolla at 10:54 AM on July 30, 2016

Another few comments deleted. Sorry, this is just not the place to have the fight you want to have, Abelian Grape.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 11:02 AM on July 30, 2016 [8 favorites]

Standing in a very long line to get into the Clinton/Kaine rally here in Pittsburgh right now. We're like three blocks away from the door right now.
posted by octothorpe at 11:02 AM on July 30, 2016 [24 favorites]

Countess Elena I think those are actually a series of pretty good guesses, although too optimistic. I think Manafort will control the business a little better...

As part of the DNC coverage MSNBC's talking heads were questioning why you hadn't seen more of Trump on the campaign trail during the DNC. Nicole Wallace, republican strategist, said that her sources inside the trump camp said that donald trump is a double edged sword. Paraphrasing here but their problem is that if you pull him off the campaign trail to keep him from saying dumb things he gets on Twitter and says dumb things.

I'm not sure how much control Manafort ultimately has over Trump. Donald is clearly calling the shots in his campaign and isn't used to having his decisions or authority questioned. It's got to be like watching your sibling's spoiled rotten children. Their best bet is to send Donald to his room and take away his cellphone.
posted by nathan_teske at 11:06 AM on July 30, 2016

In general, Bernie supporters who are supporting Clinton in the general election can do a better job of convincing Bernie-or-Busters than Clinton supporters can. Since most people who voted for Sanders in the primaries are currently supporting Clinton, most Busters probably know lots of Bernie supporters who are now supporting Clinton. These conversations can happen happen naturally. If you're starting from an assumption that anyone who supported Sanders is a misogynist bigot, and totally dismissive of the economic, social justice and environmental issues they care about, as most Clinton supporters here seem to be, you're probably just going to make people angry.

Bernie said exactly what he needed to say to convince supporters of the importance of voting Dem in November. Obviously some of his supporters still angry that he lost and endorsed Clinton, but hopefully it will sink in and a lot of them will listen.

I'd be surprised if the Clinton campaign isn't already on this. They have access to Sanders' campaign data now. (The campaigns enter their phonebanking and canvassing data into the Party's VAN database. For duration of the campaign, it's available only to the campaign, but after the campaign's over, it's available to other Democratic campaigns.) A first step would survey people who supported Sanders during the primary, get an idea of how many of them are now Busters, what issues are sticking points for them, who seems totally unpersuadable. And then draw up plans for convincing the ones that seem persuadable.

In short, if you've been a Clinton supporter from the get-go and can't fathom why anyone would support any other candidate, it's probably best not to get in arguments on Facebook with Bernie-or-Busters. It's OK to let other people who can be more persuasive do that.
posted by nangar at 11:14 AM on July 30, 2016 [20 favorites]

I am addicted to these threads. Thanks, guys.

i am addicted to these threads. damn it guys.
posted by murphy slaw at 11:18 AM on July 30, 2016 [22 favorites]

Trump responding to Khizr Khan: "If you look at his wife, she was standing there. She had nothing to say. She probably, maybe she wasn't allowed to have anything to say. You tell me." "I think I've made a lot of sacrifices. I work very, very hard. I've created thousands and thousands of jobs, tens of thousands of jobs, built great structures. I've had tremendous success. I think I've done a lot."
posted by nathan_teske at 11:20 AM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

christ what an &c.
posted by dersins at 11:21 AM on July 30, 2016 [8 favorites]

Where Trump's Economic Policies Might Spark Recession, Clinton's Could Boost GDP and Lower Unemployment:

“The upshot of our analysis is that Secretary Clinton’s economic policies, when taken together, will result in a stronger U.S. economy under almost any scenario,” they wrote on Friday. ”The upshot of Mr. Trump’s economic policy positions under almost any scenario is that the U.S. economy will be more isolated and diminished,” they concluded in June.

posted by kirkaracha at 11:23 AM on July 30, 2016 [11 favorites]

Nicole Wallace, republican strategist

I just know she's going to vote for Hillary, I'm just not sure if she will do it publicly.

responding to Khizr Khan: "If you look at his wife, she was standing there. She had nothing to say. She probably, maybe she wasn't allowed to have anything to say. You tell me."

She has plenty to say and I cannot wait to hear it.
posted by Room 641-A at 11:24 AM on July 30, 2016 [7 favorites]

Stephanopoulos was brilliant to ask the yam about Khan. He knows there is no way he can just let a slight like that go. Any sane politician would have said "I have nothing but respect and sympathy for their family, I can't imagine losing a child. I have been fortunate that I've never had to make a sacrifice like that for my country, which is why I now feel like I want to give back." or something similar that is just neutral before pivoting back to safer ground. Instead he implies that Khan is basically abusing his wife and pretends that hiring workers to earn you shitloads of money is somehow equivalent to losing your child.
posted by gatorae at 11:26 AM on July 30, 2016 [62 favorites]

"If you look at his wife, she was standing there. She had nothing to say. She probably, maybe she wasn't allowed to have anything to say. You tell me."

I would take a bullet for the journalist willing to call Trump a dog-whistling piece of shit for this line.
posted by Mooski at 11:27 AM on July 30, 2016 [25 favorites]

Trump responding to Khizr Khan: "If you look at his wife, she was standing there. She had nothing to say. She probably, maybe she wasn't allowed to have anything to say. You tell me."

Can we send this quote to every commentator who, for the next 3 months, tells us that Trump is outsmarting the Democrats through his "insurgent strategy"? There's nothing, not one thing, to be gained from attacking the family of a dead veteran, and, possibly more than anything else he's done, illustrates that Trump is simply out of control.
posted by howfar at 11:27 AM on July 30, 2016 [11 favorites]

And, of course, it's so impossibly easy to respond to. If Ghazala Khan chooses to make a short, dignified and sorrowful reply to Trump, what does he do then apart from back off or crank up his bullshit to the next level?
posted by howfar at 11:33 AM on July 30, 2016

You know what? I'm going to go ahead and say that if you are active enough on the Internet to see a bunch of people explain, over and over again, how the literally decades-long campaign to smear Hillary's character and paint her as corrupt was both born in sexism and took full advantage of all the evil fucking tools that sexism has to offer -- that it was and is, in its genesis and in its execution, an expression of a fundamentally misogynist worldview -- and yet you still can tell be bothered to do the basic self-examination and grade-school level googling it would take to debunk that stupid fucking Honduras Coup meme, then at that point you own that sexism. It's yours.

It's you.
posted by schadenfrau at 11:34 AM on July 30, 2016 [80 favorites]

If you look at his wife, she was standing there. She had nothing to say. She probably, maybe she wasn't allowed to have anything to say. You tell me.

Maybe something like "Fuck you, Donald Trump"?
But probably not, she seems like a nice lady.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:35 AM on July 30, 2016

If Ghazala Khan chooses to make a short, dignified and sorrowful reply to Trump, what does he do then apart from back off or crank up his bullshit to the next level?

Next level. It's pretty obvious at this point that Donald Trump has multiple personality disorders the least of which is a case of narcissism so bad they might as well rename it Donalidism. He's literally incapable of responding and admitting fault let alone empathizing with the Khans.

It's clear why Captain Kumayun Khan took those ten steps forward and sacrificed himself: his parents are models of courage, dignity, decency. They raised their son well. No one, least of all Donald Trump, should dare attack them.
posted by nathan_teske at 11:39 AM on July 30, 2016 [27 favorites]

Mrs. Khan didn't have to say anything because her side-eye shade against Trump as her husband spoke was magnificent.
posted by TwoStride at 11:40 AM on July 30, 2016 [34 favorites]

She has plenty to say and I cannot wait to hear it.

Her death stare into the camera was pretty loud and clear to me.
posted by PenDevil at 11:41 AM on July 30, 2016 [26 favorites]

If Ghazala Khan chooses to make a short, dignified and sorrowful reply to Trump, what does he do then apart from back off or crank up his bullshit to the next level?

She shouldn't. She already spoke movingly in the Last Word interview, which is probably going to go viral now.
posted by acidic at 11:41 AM on July 30, 2016 [15 favorites]

Janx!
posted by PenDevil at 11:42 AM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

If you saw the interview with the Khans last night, it turns out that Ghazala Khan has trouble speaking about her son, or even seeing his picture, without crying. Which makes Trump's assertion even more contemptible. She showed incredible strength of character and bravery in even standing there.

Also, I loved what Mr. Khan said about the Republican leaders, because it was turning back a lot of the anti-Muslim rhetoric ("Why are Islamic leaders not shutting extremists down?") right back at them.
posted by carrienation at 11:43 AM on July 30, 2016 [65 favorites]

If Ghazala Khan chooses to make a short, dignified and sorrowful reply to Trump

In the MSNBC interview the next day, she noted that she didn't speak at the convention because she didn't think she could hold herself together. So on the one hand she already sort of did but given the toll it seems to be taking on them I wouldn't be surprised if we've about as much of the Khans as we're going to.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:46 AM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Mrs. Khan looked extremely comfortable standing on the stage and letting her eloquent husband speak for both of them. Not feeling comfortable talking about your dead child on a stage in front of thousands of people and broadcast in front of several million more is far more normal than having the fortitude to do what her husband did.
posted by gatorae at 11:47 AM on July 30, 2016 [27 favorites]

...A high profile Republican will endorse Clinton at the last minute.... I've got ten bucks on Romney.

Romney: It's 'Very Possible' Trump Wins, Clinton Is An 'Awful Candidate'
posted by PenDevil at 11:48 AM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

He would know.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:53 AM on July 30, 2016 [14 favorites]

"Romney said he will still not vote for Trump or Clinton and would write in another Republican's name if he doesn't like the choices of third-party candidates."

Whatever, like someone said in the last thread, that is functionally a half-vote/half-endorsement of Hillary, regardless of his blithering hypotheses of her having an implosion, particularly given that she is running against someone who implodes on a daily basis.
posted by gatorae at 11:53 AM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

In theory I appreciate the idea that I, as a former Bernie supporter & now fully enthusiastic Clinton supporter, have some special powers I could use to bring the Bernie-or-Busters back into the fold. In practice... I'm pretty sure we have literally nothing in common at this point.

I switched teams and made my first donation to Hillary within hours of her becoming the presumptive nominee. Months later I still can't even post something Clinton-positive on Facebook without being deluged with anti-Clinton links of questionable provenance by dudes I don't even know.

The people who are still fighting for Bernie at this point are delusional. They live in a bizarro world that logic cannot penetrate.
posted by the turtle's teeth at 11:55 AM on July 30, 2016 [14 favorites]

Man with the Republicans this year, it's projections of turtles all the way down.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:55 AM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

For anyone who wants to hear Ghazala Khan's words straight from her mouth, here's last night's interview with Lawrence O'Donnell. Her portion starts at about 2:40. But I suggest watching from the beginning, where O'Donnell actually introduces them as "Ghazala Khan and her husband, Khizr Khan," putting the focus on her and her story.
posted by zombieflanders at 11:57 AM on July 30, 2016 [26 favorites]

“To be honest, it’s very possible in my view that Trump wins,” Romney said. “I wouldn’t think it’d be by a landslide, but I think he could win. I think he could lose, I think he could lose by a landslide. But, I don’t know which it’s going to be and a lot of that depends on what happens to Hillary Clinton. Is there a meltdown moment, or some implosion of some kind?”

"Something will happen," Romney stated with confidence. Taking a minute to consider he added, "or maybe it won't."
posted by codacorolla at 12:01 PM on July 30, 2016 [15 favorites]

Maybe a big name like Laura Bush, perhaps her husband as well.

I don't think this sentence would have happened before the last twelve months.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:01 PM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

There are about a dozen Trump supporters outside the rally and three sad Jill Stein supporters.
posted by octothorpe at 12:02 PM on July 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

“To be honest, it’s very possible in my view that Trump wins,” Romney said. “I wouldn’t think it’d be by a landslide, but I think he could win. I think he could lose, I think he could lose by a landslide. But, I don’t know which it’s going to be and a lot of that depends on what happens to Hillary Clinton. Is there a meltdown moment, or some implosion of some kind?”

If there was ever a candidate we could rely on to not meltdown during the campaign, that candidate would be Hillary Clinton. Then again the Dean Scream was hardly a meltdown and the media turned it into the thing that sunk his campaign so idk.
posted by dis_integration at 12:06 PM on July 30, 2016 [6 favorites]

Donald Trump Is a Republican:

It is alarming to see one of those parties, half of our political system, being led by a loudmouthed buffoon, a fraud and liar, running openly on a platform of cruelty, fear, self-aggrandizement, xenophobia, and white nationalism.

It is, however, entirely consistent with the party that nominated him. Donald Trump is the product of half a century of Republican strategy and ideology. Republican voters nominated him because he’s what generations of Republicans have been guided by and encouraged to vote for.

posted by kirkaracha at 12:07 PM on July 30, 2016 [6 favorites]

The odder* quote from the Romney article: “There are serious women leaders who don’t go into an audience and put their arms up in the air and make a big guffaw kind of smile," he said. "It’s almost like she’s acting like she’s Bill Clinton and she’s not Bill Clinton. Nonetheless, it doesn’t come across well.”

*By odder, I mean more blatantly sexist.
posted by snofoam at 12:13 PM on July 30, 2016 [35 favorites]

About that fire marshal: I just asked him if he is a Democrat or a Republican, and he said "Yes."

I like a fire marshal that knows their Boolean algebra.
posted by arcolz at 12:17 PM on July 30, 2016 [63 favorites]

Why America Couldn’t Hear Or See Bernie Protesters During Hillary Clinton’s Speech: Some Sanders delegates were recruited to act as moles, sniffing out plans for demonstrations on various pro-Sanders email and chat threads, the floor captain said. Over GroupMe, a messaging app, alerts went out about what to look for, including rumored plots to disrupt Clinton’s speech by ringing cowbells, throwing toilet paper, blocking doors, and lying down in the aisles of the Wells Fargo Center.
posted by acidic at 12:22 PM on July 30, 2016 [8 favorites]

Throwing toilet paper?
posted by Joey Michaels at 12:27 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

I really wish that the introduction to party politics thousands of enthusiastic leftists have gotten wasn't something like that, but you can't really fault the DNC for trying to keep things presentable. You can compare that to Obama supporters, who had their first campaign be a pretty resounding victory. That isn't to say that young people aren't volunteering and supporting Hillary, just that the energy of the Busters seems like it could be uniquely useful for the future of the democratic party, but has likely been soured for at least this campaign, and possibly for a lifetime for some of them.
posted by codacorolla at 12:27 PM on July 30, 2016

In the Hillary Clinton Era, Democrats Welcome Lobbying Money Back Into the Convention
posted by homunculus at 12:28 PM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

Has anyone made a list of the Republicans who (1) have not yet made statements either supporting or denouncing Trump; and (2) are up for re-election?

Seems like that would be a useful letter-writing campaign.
posted by neroli at 12:32 PM on July 30, 2016 [8 favorites]

Remaining Bernie or Bust holdouts are just Trump trolls until they prove otherwise by playing a constructive and supportive role in the progressive movement.
posted by humanfont at 12:41 PM on July 30, 2016 [11 favorites]

including rumored plots to disrupt Clinton’s speech by ringing cowbells,

I thought the cowbells were celebrating. Isn't that how it works everywhere else? Or do they do that at soccer games because they don't like the team and want them to change the rules?
posted by bongo_x at 12:44 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

My sources in the right wing:

The sane ones are trying to decide. They can't stomach Trump but they're scared of Hillary appointing SC justices and a completely left wing court for decades. They liked the general's speech during the DNC, they liked the Republican endorsements, they liked the attack on the gun lobby. They're concerned about the possibility of Putin involvement with Trump. Their best case scenario for a Trump win is that the vice president does everything. The thought of Trump actually being actual president for real is terrifying to them. The more they actually are exposed to trump the more nauseous their facial expression at the thought of voting for him.

So the ones leaning towards voting Trump anyway can be leaned on to write in someone, and the ones leaning towards writing in can be leaned on to vote Hillary.

The insane ones think Obama is a Secret Muslim and are basically a lost cause. Trump is perfect and wonderful and exactly what this country needs, and Hillary is evil personified. The only thing that would change their vote is incontrovertible proof Trump is a Putin puppet. They definitely hate Russia more than they hate Clinton. (although I know some trump internet supporters are big putin fans, so in that, my sample is not necessarily perfectly representative. On the other hand, some trump internet supporters are probably paid Russian trolls so of course they like Putin)
posted by Cozybee at 12:47 PM on July 30, 2016 [20 favorites]

One of my favorite things about Khizr Khan is that I suspect he's a Republican. The Politico story said that he's not a registered Democrat and the way he talked about Ryan/McConnell felt really personal-- like he had been betrayed by people he really respected.

Before 9/11, non-African American Muslims were reliably Republican voters. A small government, low tax, small business friendly, socially conservative party was a natural fit for many of them. And then that all went away fast.

More than 80% voted for Bush in 2000, but only 4% did in 2004.
posted by zachlipton at 12:50 PM on July 30, 2016 [57 favorites]

I've come up with an equation to determine how much of one's dislike of Hillary Clinton is attributable to unconscious bias and the internalization of years of Republican slander.

D*HRC - D*AG = S

That is: your dislike of Hillary Clinton minus your dislike of Al Gore is the the amount of unconscious sexism influencing your feelings toward her.

You can sub in any of a number of politicians for Al Gore, including John Kerry, Joe Biden and Barack Obama.
posted by pocketfullofrye at 12:50 PM on July 30, 2016 [13 favorites]

Maybe a big name like Laura Bush, perhaps her husband as well.

I don't think this sentence would have happened before the last twelve months.

They honest to god don't believe her, that she's just saying whatever she needs to in order to get elected.

OK, sure. Let Hillary Clinton say on stage that Irish infants are by all accounts the tastiest of babies, let her leak the blueprints for the new gloriously insurmountable wall to be erected between the states of Iowa and Wisconsin, whatever.

Just have her run up the highest fucking possible score ever against the (possibly unwitting) champion of the white nationalists / fascists that her campaign can possibly run up, without actually breaking any election laws.

This is not red v. blue and I am fine with corb-type conservatives in the Democratic Party, and all the political-nerd-behind-the-scenes hullabaloo that causes (and all the white college junior male whatever-they-are busters) being on side, as long as this side is the winning-ist.

Solidarity, now.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:51 PM on July 30, 2016 [17 favorites]

The most vehement Bernie or Buster I know right now is a co-worker who shares posts from Lee Camp, a comedian with a show on RT right now. I do not think I am going to reach her, but fortunately we do not live in a swing state. I did post the Noam Chomsky video someone linked above, so thanks for that.

Otherwise I'm just going to lay low on Facebook politics for a little while.
posted by maggiemaggie at 12:57 PM on July 30, 2016

you still can tell be bothered to do the basic self-examination and grade-school level googling it would take to debunk that stupid fucking Honduras Coup meme,

Which part of the Honduran Coup do you consider a "meme"?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 1:04 PM on July 30, 2016 [7 favorites]

Here’s what happened to that giant balloon Bill Clinton carried off-stage in Philadelphia

Spoiler: he gave it to his granddaughter Charlotte
posted by zachlipton at 1:04 PM on July 30, 2016 [26 favorites]

Which part of the Honduran Coup do you consider a "meme"?

I mean, I'm just kinda spitballing here, but, perhaps the idea that responsibility for it should be laid primarily or even entirely at Clinton's feet, which memetic contagion appears to have spread through much if not most of the Buster left?
posted by dersins at 1:26 PM on July 30, 2016 [12 favorites]

(Just a guess.)
posted by dersins at 1:27 PM on July 30, 2016

The Republicans cannot overreach - "Failing that, of course, political commentators and journalists reflexively return to the idea that the two parties, which should agree in all things, are at least in agreement as to their faults. If “both sides” were not of the same moral caliber, evincing the same degree of corruption, dishonesty, ignorance, and other undesirable traits, then that would call into question the legitimacy of one of the two sides and forever close down the possibility of bipartisan consensus. It would open up the possibility of permanent political division, rather than momentary disagreement between people of good faith whose different starting points ultimately enrich our great national dialogue, etc., etc., etc."
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:28 PM on July 30, 2016

From a few months ago, a humor piece: Here's a Glimpse at What President Trump's First 100 Minutes in Office Might Look Like
posted by ZeusHumms at 1:29 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

From a few months ago, a humor piece: Here's a Glimpse at What President Trump's First 100 Minutes in Office Might Look Like

If it's anything other than a GIF of a mushroom cloud, the writer probably worked too hard.
posted by infinitywaltz at 1:31 PM on July 30, 2016 [17 favorites]

I'm looking for rebuttals to "voting your conscience" and protest-voting and opting out of the election - anything anyone can provide would be super helpful

I'm just going to point out, very gently, whether you believe generally in "voting your conscience" or not, that this is going to be a huge thing this election and I don't think most of it is going to be on the Democrat side. I think most of it is going to be people who have been voting in lockstep for Republicans since 1974, who are becoming emboldened that it is the only moral thing to do.

Democrats have always been tempted towards the third party. For the amount of Republicans to be talking about Gary Johnson as there are, it is a sea change if it can continue.

And you just plain can't get some people to vote for Hillary. You can't. Some people would rather be burned at the stake than vote Hillary. But if their vote WAS going to be Republican, then them not voting Republican is good enough. My Republican-all-his-life dad in PA is not going to vote for Hillary no matter what I say or do. But I am going to be visiting him, and talking in person about all the stuff I personally experienced from the Trump camp, and I'll be talking to him about Johnson.

Most people don't truly have a liberals-only echo chamber. There's friends, there's family. And so if you spend your time talking about how shitty conscience voting is, aiming it at your lefty friends, there's a good change your right-of-center friends will be hearing it too. And this is the election we can't afford for Republicans to hold their nose and vote the party.
posted by corb at 1:35 PM on July 30, 2016 [41 favorites]

I always vote my conscience, but I'm a person who strongly values harm reduction.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:36 PM on July 30, 2016 [38 favorites]

Any progressive who believes their conscience is telling them something other than "DEFEAT TRUMP AT ALL COSTS" may be working with a flawed understanding of "conscience."

Or "progressive."
posted by dersins at 1:41 PM on July 30, 2016 [25 favorites]

If you need a (really) good laugh, please watch this version of Trump's recent speech.
posted by AFABulous at 1:43 PM on July 30, 2016 [9 favorites]

Instead, let's contemplate how Black Women's Emotional Labor Saved the DNC.

From that link:

As Monica Dennis, Regional Co-Coordinator of Black Lives Matter NYC pointed out on her FB page: "Donna Brazile and Marcia Fudge cleaned up a mess they did not create. First Lady Michelle Obama delivered a flawless speech, silencing her haters, shading the RNC candidate while wearing a bulletproof vest. Sen. Corey Booker invoked Dr. Maya Angelou to signal that he is next in line. Black women bear the reality and weight that we are instrumental in keeping Trump out of the White House. And all of this, without a bold mention of Fannie Lou Hamer, Shirley Chisholm or Barbara Jordan who revolutionized U.S. politics."

So, I love this message. But also, check out what we did hear on Hamer, Chisholm, and Jordan:

Here's Shirley Franklin, Mayor of Atlanta, on Fannie Lou Hamer.
Here's former South Carolina Rep. Bakari Sellers on Hamer and Shirley Chisholm.
Here's Lovely Warren, Mayor of Rochester, NY, on Chisholm at the New York delegation breakfast.
Here's Texas Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee on Barbara Jordan.

Not to mention Al Sharpton and Meryl Streep and the delegate from the great state of Mississippi.

No real point here (and certainly no disagreement with the article!) -- just that when you scratch below the surface of the top-line speakers, there is so much more awesome to uncover.
posted by john hadron collider at 1:43 PM on July 30, 2016 [14 favorites]

Yeah, as much as I loved that piece, that line definitely stood out as odd to me. I didn't watch anywhere close to all of the speeches--well under 25% of them, for sure--but even so I definitely heard multiple mentions of both Hamer and Chisholm.
posted by dersins at 1:49 PM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

I mean, I'm just kinda spitballing here, but, perhaps the idea that responsibility for it should be laid primarily or even entirely at Clinton's feet, which memetic contagion appears to have spread through much if not most of the Buster left?

I mean, uhh, we're supposed to judge people on their records. The role of the Secretary of State in legitimizing the coup in Honduras and aiding and abetting the current, right-wing regime, is just a fact. There is no amount of googling that will magically make the facts disappear. And it's kind of one of the lesser sins in the long history of US support of Latin American dictatorships. It's absurd to say that it's a meme. It's just true. As people say, it's not my job to educate you on the facts here, they're pretty much out in the open.
posted by dis_integration at 1:50 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yeah, I was about to say, I know I heard shoutouts to Jordan and Chisholm at least, so that part of the complaint seemed kind of odd.
posted by tavella at 1:50 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

I've heard from a few people complaints about how the DNC was just politicians trying to sound like people and given how many regular folks were up there- people whose lives have been touched by tragedy and success, people who are often on the sharp end of politics- I just assume they didn't actually watch the damned thing.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:51 PM on July 30, 2016 [9 favorites]

If Clinton wins VA and it's quite likely it will be on the strength of the coastal population centers.

Well when you remove the three major population centers you're left with only 30% of the voters in the whole state. This writeup in anticipation of the 2013 governor's race - which TMcA won - shows just how few districts Creigh Deeds won in the 2009 race, yet still pulled over 41% of the vote. You barely have any blue there. Look at the 2005 map for Tim Kaine's victory and you see that even a 6% spread is mostly red by land mass. Kaine got some spots over to the west - which maybe will make you feel better - but the real spread was because of the cities to the east.

Kaine's map should make you feel better; he grabbed Loudoun and Prince William. I think odds are good he will help Clinton get even more of those spots as well. Arlington and Alexandria are basically a gimmie.

Not a reason to be complacent, but this is a good reason not to panic.
posted by phearlez at 1:51 PM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

The role of the Secretary of State in legitimizing the coup in Honduras and aiding and abetting the current, right-wing regime, is just a fact.

Am I really in the minority in this world in thinking that the Secretary of State primarily carries the water the President orders them to? I would certainly feel comfortable assuming that anyone who takes that job it's in too radical a disagreement with the big kahuna's policies, and questions of competence certainly are fair, but I always just assume that if I have a gripe with policy coming out of that position that it was the President's choice.
posted by phearlez at 1:54 PM on July 30, 2016 [15 favorites]

The role of the Secretary of State in legitimizing the coup in Honduras and aiding and abetting the current, right-wing regime, is just a fact.

Look at those goal posts go!
posted by schadenfrau at 1:56 PM on July 30, 2016 [22 favorites]

Josh Marshall: How And Why Trump Will Try to Ditch the Debates
posted by homunculus at 2:11 PM on July 30, 2016 [6 favorites]

Pope Guilty, I heard something similar to that just an hour ago from a friend of mine, and it turned out she'd tried to watch it on PBS. I was floundering around a little the first day of the DNC and the first stream I found kept cutting out, so I'd switch back to PBS and every time it'd be Shields and Brooks mammering on endlessly with the actual convention appearing all fuzzy and tiny and muffled in the distant background. It was enraging. The difference between the actual live conventions and the bowdlerized conventions is huge.
posted by Don Pepino at 2:11 PM on July 30, 2016 [12 favorites]

Where Trump's Economic Policies Might Spark Recession, Clinton's Could Boost GDP and Lower Unemployment

Economic predictions have to see if the GOP retains control of Congress.

This produces a 4-way future not a binary one:

1) Clinton wins, GOP control: utter, utter shitshow through to 2018.

2) Clinton wins, Dems regain control: yeay (?)

3) Trump wins, GOP control: tax cuts for everyone, deficit spending, maybe the Fed cajoled into MMTism to get the boom going for Republicans (AFAICT the Fed is largely a pro-conservative institution)

4) Trump wins, Dems regain control: impossible
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 2:14 PM on July 30, 2016

Sandy Levinson, Balkinization: A Weberian take on the 2016 Republican nominee - "Folks, this is where we are in our contemporary political situation. But, as Weber suggested almost a century, Trumpism may be a dangerous virus located in the DNA of the American constitutional order and its ever-greater valorization of presidents as maximum leaders with grandiose visions they have "mandates" to implement, whatever it takes. "
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:15 PM on July 30, 2016

4) Trump wins, Dems regain control: impossible

Depends on the level of control. If it's simply <50 senate seats instead of <40 they might try to filibuster but we'll see the nuclear option used on the first week.

Also, I don't see a scenario where Trump wins but Rs fail to keep the Senate. It would literally involve Democrats turning out in record numbers to vote D but not vote Hillary.
posted by Talez at 2:16 PM on July 30, 2016

And it's kind of one of the lesser sins in the long history of US support of Latin American dictatorships.

And yet, suddenly this election cycle it's being foregrounded.

Why might that be?
posted by dersins at 2:17 PM on July 30, 2016 [8 favorites]

Heywood Mogroot III: Where Trump's Economic Policies Might Spark Recession, Clinton's Could Boost GDP and Lower Unemployment Economic predictions have to see if the GOP retains control of Congress. This produces a 4-way future not a binary one

TFA explains that Moody tested multiple scenarios for both candidates:

- all platform policies pass;
- compromises are required with Congress;
- obstructionist Congress.

Clinton's plan is found to be superior to Trump's for the economy in all three scenarios.
posted by Superplin at 2:17 PM on July 30, 2016 [16 favorites]

And yet, suddenly this election cycle it's being foregrounded.

I dunno, the left has made a fuss about the Monroe doctrine and the horrors of US involvement in latin america for decades. I was out at Fort Benning protesting the School of the Americas in the 00's. This issue hasn't changed. If anything we shifted the goalposts for Obama because we all believed he would do better. Maybe he is with the Cuba rapprochement, we'll see what happens with that. I blame him as well.
posted by dis_integration at 2:19 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

What I'd really like to see is the senate history between 2005 and 2008 for Obama, Clinton, and Sanders, when all three worked in the senate together

Specifically calculating:
Number of bills authored
Number of bills co-authored
Number of bills sponsored
Number of bills co-sponsored

Then a breakdown of how many of those bills had bipartisan support, and which ones Obama, Clinton, and Sanders had supported / voted on.

Because from my cursory view, Sanders has had little success getting few if any of this policies to have traction on the senate floor, but I don't have the numbers to back up that suspicion.
posted by mrzarquon at 2:20 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

A friend's telling me the polls are at 50-50 again. Say it ain't so?
posted by peacheater at 2:23 PM on July 30, 2016

Which polls exactly?
posted by tzikeh at 2:24 PM on July 30, 2016

It ain't.
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:24 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

It is really possible to be unhappy with Clinton without sexism being the reason.

It sure must be because I have yet to hear anyone come right out and say "I don't like Hillary because I am sexist!".
posted by srboisvert at 2:26 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Specifically calculating:
Number of bills authored
Number of bills co-authored
Number of bills sponsored
Number of bills co-sponsored

The thing is, despite folks of all stripes--left, right and centrist--using this kind of information as a sort of "gotcha" against their political opponents, the vast majority of actual, really hard work done by an individual legislator isn't captured by those numbers.
posted by dersins at 2:28 PM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

Oh I think he means the 538 polls only model.
posted by peacheater at 2:28 PM on July 30, 2016

It sure must be because I have yet to hear anyone come right out and say "I don't like Hillary because I am sexist!".

That is basically the platform of /r/the_donald, actually.
posted by dis_integration at 2:32 PM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

A friend's telling me the polls are at 50-50 again. Say it ain't so?

Nate's currently got his now-cast and his forecast moving in opposite directions. Hm. Maybe that makes sense?
posted by howfar at 2:32 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well, Honduras does become interesting in light of Kaine's experience there, and it would certainly be fascinating to get a more nuanced take on it from him/about him (so far much of the narrative seems to limited to excitement at the fact that he speaks Spanish); certainly Greg Grandin's article, "Eat, Pray, Starve: What Tim Kaine Didn't Learn During His Time in Honduras is a very different look at the issue.
posted by TwoStride at 2:36 PM on July 30, 2016 [6 favorites]

A friend's telling me the polls are at 50-50 again.

Your friend needs to sit tight. Right now I think there's just one fully post-DNC poll, from a relatively new pollster (538 considers them a B+ I think). Don't expect to see fully post-DNC polls really registering until Tuesday/Wednesday. That's when the "bounce" articles will start appearing.
posted by GameDesignerBen at 2:37 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm following Sam Wang rather than Nate Silver

+1 Was just about to post the same thing.
posted by chris24 at 2:48 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

The NYT has an inside look at the trump campaign. Although it's a campaign only in a very loose sense. Big points are a serious lack of funds, the Koch brothers repudiating advances from the campaign (and trump tweeted that he turned them down!), and a path forward that really only includes a sweep of the three biggest swing states. Of course that means that trump has to do what no republican nominee has done in years: take PA. I personally think he could do it, because of rural PA's distressed status as a former manufacturing base that's been embarrassed by a global economy, but I think it's an exceedingly long shot that needs to fire along three other nearly equally or even longer shots.

This is largely because trump's vile rhetoric has alienated women and minorities who would otherwise be persuaded to pull the R lever in places like Colorado and Virginia. In that light, Kaine (both for sealing in VA's votes, and for his general moderate appeal) seems to have been a canny choice from Clinton. NC is also worrying, since it might potentially swing this year - especially due to the recent judicial victory striking down its voter disenfranchisement laws.

Among all of that, the campaign doesn't have the money to match Clinton on advertising, and are going to be using trump's fame to focus on a "small number of [key] targets" with his messaging about trade deals, terrorism scares, and immigration race baiting. Ads that do air are going to be focused on FLA, OH and PA. So, essentially, it appears as though trump has given up on actually fighting the election in any states except for the ones he needs for his shoot the moon strategy. Strategists were hoping that bringing Pence on board would alleviate most of these problems, but of course we see how that worked out.

Still a lot of time left until the election though. I would imagine that part of the unstated strategy is digging up something to Swiftboat Clinton with, and I'd imagine that useful idiot Assange is only too willing to provide. At the moment, however, the electoral map looks very bleak for trump.
posted by codacorolla at 2:49 PM on July 30, 2016 [19 favorites]

I'm following Sam Wang rather than Nate Silver - slightly more reliable historically and not as sensationalist. And hasn't disappeared into his own cult of personality. Sam Wang seems to be predicting that a 2 point swing in Trump's favour by election day still gives the Electoral College to Clinton.

Sam Wang's actually predicting a 3.3% swing is required to make the race even. That's the "meta-margin" top right on his homepage.

538 has reverted to traditional punditry, in effect. Lots of noise (ergo lots of headlines), not a lot of signal. Also, Silver's modelling always seems much less confident than it should be. It seems to assign much lower probabilities to certain outcomes than are realistic, but is still praised for calling a race "correctly". No. If you say that x has a 70% chance of happening in 10 places, and it happens in all of them, you did not call it correctly. You almost certainly massively understated the probability of x.
posted by howfar at 2:55 PM on July 30, 2016 [8 favorites]

Hillary Clinton, on Facebook:

I was very moved to see Ghazala Khan stand bravely and with dignity in support of her son on Thursday night. And I was very moved to hear her speak last night, bravely and with dignity, about her son's life and the ultimate sacrifice he made for his country.

This is a time for all Americans to stand with the Khans, and with all the families whose children have died in service to our country. And this is a time to honor the sacrifice of Captain Khan and all the fallen. Captain Khan and his family represent the best of America, and we salute them
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:57 PM on July 30, 2016 [31 favorites]

If you say that x has a 70% chance of happening in 10 places, and it happens in all of them, you did not call it correctly. You almost certainly massively understated the probability of x.

Whatever your opinion of fivethirtyeight and their model, they understand this (search for calibration).
posted by dfan at 3:00 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Also, maybe this is getting too nit-picky, but it's perfectly plausible for ten 70% predictions to all come true, if they are correlated.
posted by dfan at 3:02 PM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

And yet, suddenly this election cycle it's being foregrounded.

Why might that be?

It reentered the news cycle after Berta Cáceres was murdered back in March.
posted by homunculus at 3:07 PM on July 30, 2016 [7 favorites]

Whatever your opinion of fivethirtyeight and their model, they understand this (search for calibration).

Oh, absolutely, it's not actually them I'm talking about, on that point, but rather the reaction to them. We will have to see, once the results come in, whether the model is better calibrated than last time. Silver himself noted some calibration problems with his forecast after 2012, and he hasn't done amazingly well at political prediction since then, but we'll see. They're definitely trying, but I don't know if their model is really all it's cracked up to be. We need a lot more data, somewhat ironically.
posted by howfar at 3:07 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm trying to remember all the time I spent in 2008 and 2012 sweating over day to day poll swings and shifting red and blue chunks of the electoral map, and to contrast that memory with the relatively swift and undramatic election days that followed. I certainly don't always succeed, but my goal for this election year is to keep a closer eye on campaign organization and fundamentals, rather than the latest reading of the tea leaves.
posted by EatTheWeek at 3:11 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

howfar: "Silver himself noted some calibration problems with his forecast after 2012, and he hasn't done amazingly well at political prediction since then, but we'll see."

E.g. this 2012 election post-mortem.
posted by crazy with stars at 3:14 PM on July 30, 2016

Greg Grandin's other columns include claiming that there is nothing UnAmerican about Donald Trump and another defending Donald Trump's praise of Saddam. Why he has been given a column in what was historically one of America's leading progressive magazines is something to ponder.

Those are pretty hot takes on thoughtful articles written by a history professor. The first amounts to something that's been repeated over and over again: that Donald Trump embodies a particularly nasty strain in American political life, one as old as the Puritans. The other compares attitudes US foreign policy takes towards Hussein with those we take towards Latin American dictators who we regard as friends, great people, wonderful allies, as they unleash death squads on their opponents and we do nothing. I mean do you actually have rebuttals of those articles or do you just think that if you frame the article's theses in the right light you can dismiss its arguments entirely? Are we giving up on thoughtful criticism because we want to unify behind a political candidate now?
posted by dis_integration at 3:15 PM on July 30, 2016 [9 favorites]

The Khan speech and media tour seem to be having an effect, it's the most viral thing to come out of either convention at least in my world. I have heard from both liberal and conservative friends about it and seen multiple posts on social media.

One example is a friend of mine, son of immigrants whose father served (and got citizenship) in the Navy. He was anti-Trump but not a Hillary supporter at all, and his family are conservative Republicans, religious Catholics who don't like Trump but were apparently really against Hillary. According to him, that speech united the entire family behind the Democrats this time out, and feel it's their duty to vote against Trump now.
posted by cell divide at 3:18 PM on July 30, 2016 [48 favorites]

Those are pretty hot takes on thoughtful articles written by a history professor.

Really? Because it seems barely even tepid to state that a piece of writing "claim[s] that there is nothing UnAmerican about Donald Trump" when the actual title of said piece of writing is "There’s Nothing Un-American About Donald Trump."
posted by dersins at 3:24 PM on July 30, 2016 [7 favorites]

> Well, Honduras does become interesting in light of Kaine's experience there, and it would certainly be fascinating to get a more nuanced take on it from him/about him (so far much of the narrative seems to limited to excitement at the fact that he speaks Spanish); certainly Greg Grandin's article, "Eat, Pray, Starve: What Tim Kaine Didn't Learn During His Time in Honduras is a very different look at the issue.

Grandin was on Democracy Now yesterday: "Eat, Pray, Starve": Greg Grandin on Tim Kaine, Hillary Clinton & the U.S. Role in Honduras

> Greg Grandin's other columns include... defending Donald Trump's praise of Saddam.

He wasn't really defending it, he was commenting on its consistency with our record of supporting strongmen. Here's the piece:

Donald Trump’s Praise of Saddam Hussein, in Context: Behind Trump’s comments are 100 years of American-backed dictatorships.
posted by homunculus at 3:25 PM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

Really? Because it seems barely even tepid to state that a piece of writing "claim[s] that there is nothing UnAmerican about Donald Trump" when the actual title of said piece of writing is "There’s Nothing Un-American About Donald Trump."

Obviously the hot take there is the framing, the implication that such a statement is so absurd that it should disqualify Grandin from being a contributor to The Nation. It's in bad faith.
posted by dis_integration at 3:28 PM on July 30, 2016

If Trump tries to weasel out of the debates Clinton would simply show up and get two hours of free primetime national television answering questions however she wants and attacking Trump relentlessly. That's why there's no chance he doesn't show.
posted by Justinian at 3:29 PM on July 30, 2016 [11 favorites]

If Trump tries to weasel out of the debates Clinton would simply show up and get two hours of free primetime national television answering questions however she wants and attacking Trump relentlessly.

You know what would be even better?

Clinton spends two hours on national TV listening to things that are wrong, empathise with people and tell them her solution.
posted by Talez at 3:33 PM on July 30, 2016 [36 favorites]

. . . That's why there's no chance he doesn't show.

I will never underestimate the man's ability to create an alternate reality in which his actions are completely justified, and act accordingly. Members of his base are following him through these last appalling comments, inventing reasons that it was okay to insult Khan, and they'd follow him to an alternate broadcast on debate night where someone lobs softballs at him while he sits in his golden chair.
posted by Countess Elena at 3:35 PM on July 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

Trump is laying the groundwork for skipping the debates.

The prospect of watching Clinton utterly emasculate Trump on live television is the only thing that's kept me going through his entire candidacy.

I have nearly a year of pent-up rage that is only barely being kept in check now by the promise of that outlet. If it doesn't happen, everything will burn, starting with him and all he holds dear. EVERYTHING.
posted by Anonymous at 3:37 PM on July 30, 2016

The prospect of watching Clinton utterly emasculate Trump on live television is the only thing that's kept me going through his entire candidacy.

The prospect of him not showing up and giving Ms. Clinton free airtime is better.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:40 PM on July 30, 2016 [6 favorites]

Trump has never been above 43% on the poll averages. His base, a combo of Trumpsters and partisans, isn't enough to win. He has to convince 10% more of the electorate and those people do care about debates, the Khans, Russia hacks, etc. Who cares what he can convince his nutjobs of? They're a landslide loss minority.
posted by chris24 at 3:40 PM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

If Clinton goes on TV and fills the entire debate slot just talking to the moderator, I guarantee that ol' Trumpy will go MST3K on her from Twitter. Which I guess could be an interesting model: Clinton talking, Trump snarking it up online, and the moderator pulling occasional Trump lines and letting Clinton respond to them live.
posted by GameDesignerBen at 3:41 PM on July 30, 2016 [8 favorites]

His base, a combo of Trumpsters and partisans, isn't enough to win.

His base isn't enough to win if Clinton's coalition comes out to vote. Trump's ceiling is lower but motivated. So the key is getting people to the polls.
posted by Justinian at 3:42 PM on July 30, 2016 [17 favorites]

> Where Trump's Economic Policies Might Spark Recession, Clinton's Could Boost GDP and Lower Unemployment:

Wayback link for those who don't feel like tweaking their ad blockers.
posted by homunculus at 3:42 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Same, schroedinger. I also deeply desire to embark on an all out campaign of psychological warfare against Trump, because frankly, it seems like it should be easy to goad him into a full-on breakdown on air, and I want Hillary and her surrogates to do it. It was a good start getting Bloomberg to attack him, and Trump predictably took the bait. I want them to push harder. Compared to Hillary and the shit she's survived, Trump is downright fragile. I want that fragile ego destroyed.

Should I be better than this petty desire? Probably. But right now Trump is the malignant symbol of every privileged white man I and every other woman have had to endure all our lives, and I'm so fucking sick of it.
posted by yasaman at 3:43 PM on July 30, 2016 [70 favorites]

I'm also not so sure the debates would go well for Hillary. She's excellent, but surely she's only ever debated rational actors. His constant vicious insults and Gish Galloping might literally overtake her. Imagine debating the entire white male id of a country, incarnate . . .
posted by Countess Elena at 3:45 PM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

I am a little pleased by the idea of the nation getting to see what a narcissistic rage meltdown looks like, live on every network.
posted by Pope Guilty at 3:46 PM on July 30, 2016 [12 favorites]

I don't know. She handled the Benghazi hearings like the pro that she is, and while that wasn't quite Trumpian levels of loopiness, it was pretty unhinged.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 3:47 PM on July 30, 2016 [35 favorites]

While Clinton is a lot like Leslie Knope, she's a vastly more competent debater. Leslie Knope's plans and energy + Hermione Granger's self-control.
posted by stolyarova at 3:47 PM on July 30, 2016 [19 favorites]

I also deeply desire to embark on an all out campaign of psychological warfare against Drumpf, because frankly, it seems like it should be easy to goad him into a full-on breakdown on air

Somewhere in the daily convention threads, someone floated the idea of just mailing Trump box after box of tiny gloves and mittens. That idea appeals to me a great deal, but I don't have a line on tiny gloves or mittens in bulk.
posted by EatTheWeek at 3:48 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

I say again: Let's get together and send him masses of XXXXL gloves with the tags removed. Underwear that's super baggy in the crotch.
posted by stolyarova at 3:48 PM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

Tiny gloves will just confirm to him that he has enormous hands by comparison.
posted by stolyarova at 3:48 PM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'd hope the Clinton campaign has got some decent psychologists advising on Trump's fairly evident patologies. Or is that unethical?
posted by Devonian at 3:52 PM on July 30, 2016

Should I be better than this petty desire? Probably.

I feel no shame over the urge to see him trampled into a mewling, psychotic mess.
posted by Anonymous at 3:52 PM on July 30, 2016

There are three debates scheduled that will include Trump. I imagine that she'll play it pretty straight for the first one and let Trump be Trump and see what happens. If he poll numbers shoot up, I'd expect more of the same for the rest. If not, she can always goad him into a breakdown later.
posted by VTX at 3:52 PM on July 30, 2016

The NYT has an inside look at the trump campaign:

It now looks exceedingly difficult for [Trump] to assemble even the barest Electoral College majority without beating Hillary Clinton in a trifecta of the biggest swing states: Florida, Ohio and Pennsylvania.
...
...his most plausible route to the presidency, and perhaps his only realistic victory scenario, involves capturing all three of the biggest electoral prizes on the map, and keeping North Carolina in the Republican column.
...
Gov. Terry McAuliffe of Virginia, a longtime political ally of the Clintons, said that Mrs. Clinton could effectively throttle the Trump campaign by winning Virginia, where he is confident of her standing, and one other swing state. He named Florida as the most inviting option.

“If you put a combination together of Florida and Virginia, it’s virtually impossible for Republicans to win the presidency,” Mr. McAuliffe said. “Electoral College-wise, we are in a very strong position today.”

The New York Times' current polls: Florida (Clinton +1.3), Ohio (Clinton +0.2), Pennsylvania (Clinton +3.6), and North Carolina (Clinton +2.4). The trend lines look dicey for Clinton in Ohio but she's maintaining a fairly steady lead in the other three states. He'll have to take three out of four to win.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:55 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Huh? Mark Cuban is speaking at the rally before Hillary, didn't expect that.
posted by octothorpe at 3:56 PM on July 30, 2016

I want Trump to receive fake security briefings that include Real Facts like:

Mark Cuban is an actual Cuban

Dick Cheney let the dogs out

Paris Hilton is a secret Russian spy
posted by stolyarova at 4:01 PM on July 30, 2016 [10 favorites]

Bat Boy is real and is kept in a cryogenic storage tank at Area 51 alongside Eisenhower's head
posted by stolyarova at 4:02 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

> Mark Cuban is an actual Cuban

No seriously, through an act of modern gastronomy, he's a full blown Cuban.
posted by mrzarquon at 4:02 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

He's barely mentioned Hillary and is just talking about himself.
posted by octothorpe at 4:02 PM on July 30, 2016

Let's get together and send him masses of XXXXL gloves with the tags removed.

Ah! Yes, that was it. I'm picturing it working the same way as all those dildos and gummy penises getting sent to those Bundy boy Ranch Stupidians squatting Malheur. Picture Trump on his webcam, desk buried under heaps of gloves that he can't fill, yelling and turning redder and redder shades of orange. Then he tries to shove them all on the ground in disgust but it takes, like, a really long time.
posted by EatTheWeek at 4:03 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

That's because Mark Cuban is a less toxic Donald Trump. Same narcissism.
posted by Justinian at 4:03 PM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

https://twitter.com/hashtag/FakeTrumpIntelligenceBriefing
posted by box at 4:03 PM on July 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

Given how the Trump AMA went, I'm betting on the prez tv debate being between HRC and an actual yam she brought into the studio herself.
posted by Devonian at 4:04 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Omg box I love that this is a thing. Thank you!
posted by stolyarova at 4:05 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Talking about himself is exactly what Mark Cuban should do. He's fighting billionaire bluster with better billionaire bluster.
posted by acidic at 4:06 PM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

While I know that Cuban is attempting to be on the right side of history here and I don't want to be uncharitable, is there something about being a billionaire that turns your skin into orange rubber?
posted by stolyarova at 4:08 PM on July 30, 2016

Okay, he did just call Trump a jaggoff so all is forgiven.
posted by octothorpe at 4:08 PM on July 30, 2016 [8 favorites]

While I know that Cuban is attempting to be on the right side of history here and I don't want to be uncharitable, is there something about being a billionaire that turns your skin into orange rubber?

Fake tans.
posted by Talez at 4:09 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Set up the "debate" in game show format. Several topics the candidates can choose from, and the challenge is: who can talk about {subject} the longest without making it about themselves. Timer running on the screen.
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:10 PM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

If he poll numbers shoot up, I'd expect more of the same for the rest. If not, she can always goad him into a breakdown later.

Frankly, I don't think she has to do anything to goad him beyond showing up, knowing her shit, and being presidential. He was terrified of Megyn Kelly.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 4:10 PM on July 30, 2016 [15 favorites]

Before 9/11, non-African American Muslims were reliably Republican voters. A small government, low tax, small business friendly, socially conservative party was a natural fit for many of them. And then that all went away fast.

Just wanted to mention this from a personal perspective...

Tulsa has a sizable population of people from the Middle East and Iran. And they were always, always, going on about how much they LOVED America and how much they LOVED Reagan. Even before 9/11 there was a certain hostility towards "furriners" and the best way to counter it was to wrap yourself in as many American flags as possible.

This was true not only of Muslims but of Christians as well, especially Lebanese Christians.

Since 9/11 it's only gotten worse down there. There's now a CAIR chapter, in fact. Locals protested the Veterans Day parade because Muslim veterans dare march in it.

I hope the Khan's message got through some thick skulls down there, but I doubt it.
posted by dw at 4:15 PM on July 30, 2016 [11 favorites]

I think in either case, if Trump dies or ragequits, Pence steps in.

Now, if both Trump and Pence ragequit....then it gets really interesting.
posted by spinifex23 at 4:18 PM on July 30, 2016

The RNC picks who becomes the candidate. I doubt they'd pick Pence.
posted by Justinian at 4:19 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

dw, I'm from the Texas Panhandle so I know EXACTLY what you mean. The "You ain't from 'round here" sentiment was thick even before 9/11. :(
posted by stolyarova at 4:19 PM on July 30, 2016

The RNC picks who becomes the candidate. I doubt they'd pick Pence.

It would probably be Ryan or Kasich if something happened with Trump.

My guess would be Kasich, largely because he has managed to keep himself almost entirely free of TrumpTaint, and could very well swing the election by delivering Ohio.
posted by dersins at 4:24 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Problem is that even if Trump ragequits, the GOP then has the problem of the ensuing fight to put not-Trump at the top of the ballot. If they have a plan, and that plan is John Kasich, then they could still save the election. But I would expect a LOT of fighting to break out between Cruz, Kasich, Rubio, and Pence supporters.

I really don't see Trump walking away now, though. He's in too deep. He hates to lose, but walking makes him an even bigger loser.
posted by dw at 4:29 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

If it's taken from Trump, the thermonuclear scale of his tantrum will effectively deny the RNC the presidency for at least this election, maybe longer.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:32 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

My guess would be Kasich, largely because he has managed to keep himself almost entirely free of TrumpTaint, and could very well swing the election by delivering Ohio.

It's unknowable because we're so far off-piste at this point. If Trump goes before the election, what does his base do? That depends on the manner of his going.

But none of the scenarios playing in my head are good for the GOP.
posted by Devonian at 4:34 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

I think that older voters, who are Republican by tradition and not because of radio rage, are going to be extremely uncomfortable with Trump being disrespectful towards an older Gold Star family. He, and everyone else, is under the impression that he can say what hebwants without consequence, but I think 1) this is a step too far -- he reveals himself as a buffoon and a bully; and 2) there is a cumulative effect of one terrible contrast after another after another.
posted by argybarg at 4:35 PM on July 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

> I really don't see Trump walking away now, though. He's in too deep. He hates to lose, but walking makes him an even bigger loser.

Pretty much this.

As reiterated numerous times, he has to win every challenge given to him. He didn't care about being President, he wanted to win the primary, and the GOP primaries were such a shit show, and he was able to keep them in such disarray, that he felt comfortable competing.

Now he's seeing that the Democrats have their shit relatively locked down and can't be bullied. His actions about the debates are his tell - he doesn't think he will win in a fair fight, so he's building the narrative to change it in his favor.

As mentioned up thread, if he starts talking about Johnson and Stein not have representation and that we need a four way debate, he's retreating to his familiar turf. I hope the press laughs him off and realize they are part of what caused this travesty in the first place.
posted by mrzarquon at 4:35 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

He hates to lose, but walking makes him an even bigger loser.

Not in his eyes. He's great at saying shit like..."I'm to great for this third rate democratic process, this is all rigged by the media folks, that's why I'm so far behind in the polls, so I'm out because my opponents are losers and failures."

Sure it doesn't make sense.
posted by vrakatar at 4:35 PM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm sure the GOP has been trying to figure out how to get rid of him before this, but he's contaminated the GOP base against it's own leadership to the point where they may feel like he's the only one who can steer this mob, how can they influence him.
posted by mrzarquon at 4:37 PM on July 30, 2016

>She handled the Benghazi hearings like the pro that she is

I hadn't really thought much about this, but Clinton has been plugged in to the real reality -- not the kayfabe show we outer-party people get, since 1993.

I like to think I'm reasonably informed about the world, but what Clinton has seen, done, and the talks with powerful people she's had makes my circle of understanding quite microscopic in comparison.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 4:40 PM on July 30, 2016 [25 favorites]

If Trump looked at the polls, decided he couldn't win, and bowed out in say, the last few weeks up to election, the GOP might not be able to get another candidate on the ballot in all 50 states in time. They'd have to organize all the delegates again, and hold a lightning-quick convention, then do all the mountains of paperwork to file with the FEC and get a name on ballots. Or they could try a write-in campaign. But mostly the ballots would probably still say Trump/Pence and Clinton/Kaine. Actually this would be a great strategy for Trump. Say you're quitting on, say, Nov 2nd. Then if you win anyway, because your name is still on the ballots, say you never meant it, you were sarcastic. I hope he's not reading this.
posted by dis_integration at 4:43 PM on July 30, 2016

Even if Trump didn't say a word, airplay of the nasty things he's already said—which will be played back over and over—will be enough to alienate a bunch of groups of people. Like, say, women. I feel like he will be crushed by his own words and our one lasting image of him will be him mocking the disabled reporter.
posted by snofoam at 4:48 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm actually terrified of Trump dropping out, specifically because while that would give Clinton the Whitehouse, it may slow the inertia against winning back the House, Senate, and state legislatures. The urgency dies down, and those downticket races that need huge Left and Democratic turn outs to flip seats don't happen.
posted by mrzarquon at 4:53 PM on July 30, 2016 [12 favorites]

My head canon is Trump is actually an archangel sent by a vengeful God to dismantle the GOP for fifty-odd years of hateful bullshit done in His name.

If it isn't true, Neil Gaiman should write it.
posted by Mooski at 4:53 PM on July 30, 2016 [11 favorites]

> I feel like he will be crushed by his own words and our one lasting image of him will be him mocking the disabled reporter.

In previous DNC threads, that still image has polled as causing the most negative reaction against Trump.

I hope it is used sparingly, otherwise the over saturation of it would remove it's effectiveness, and drive people away from voting in general (but not towards Trump).
posted by mrzarquon at 4:54 PM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

I can think of nothing so self-destructive and pointless as going after the subminiscule BoBs by attacking Sanders. His voters and supporters are still involved, now in the service of Hillary's campaign, and they are grass-roots, retail-politics types who will do a lot of her heavy lifting. Don't insult and alienate some of your most effective operatives by continually re-fighting the primaries.

Just ignore the BoBs. They hate that. They're not worth a scrap of effort to convince or counter, they are utterly irrelevant, and they know it.
posted by Slap*Happy at 4:58 PM on July 30, 2016 [17 favorites]

Okay, let's not get into "Surely this..." because we know how that worked out before (search for "Surely this..."). BUT as I've said before*, Deranged Donald has reached all the 'natural' support he can expect and is doing nothing practical to reach out beyond that. Individual 'gaffes' will no longer build his base, but won't hurt him badly; still the effect of each one will tear away a small amount of the "will vote for any Republican" segment, and you can expect him to keep on making offensive/stupid statements on a daily basis for the next three months. Upthread we were reminded that the hard-core Trumpists are sure voters, but his daily WTFs will motivate more anti-Trumpists. Meanwhile, having high-profile Republicans endorse Gary Johnson won't be as good as endorsing Clinton, but enough of them could start a move for the Libertarian Party to replace the Republicans as America's Conservatives, and that division could, in the short-to-medium run, really help ALL the Democrats. As I have said before*, where the Democrats need to spend their money is GOTV, even after Hillary seems to have it wrapped up, to build some downstream numbers that could turn the Senate, half-turn the House and turn some red state houses purplish.

*am I repeating myself too much? probably.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:02 PM on July 30, 2016 [6 favorites]

If Trump bailed too close to the election, his electors would have to decide who to vote for. Presumably the party would try to coordinate them, but they can really vote for anybody.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 5:02 PM on July 30, 2016

So Bill Clinton is on the bus tour with Hillary and Kaine but isn't speaking. He just sat there opposite Kaine's wife smiling and clapping being the deferential candidate's spouse.
posted by octothorpe at 5:02 PM on July 30, 2016 [63 favorites]

In previous DNC threads, that still image has polled as causing the most negative reaction against Trump.

My mom was leaning slightly towards Trump until she saw that.
posted by drezdn at 5:06 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

In addition to balloons, Bill Clinton is thrilled by Lincoln Logs!
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 5:07 PM on July 30, 2016 [8 favorites]

All that communicative energy has to go somewhere. I wonder if Bill has a secret Twitter account.
posted by maudlin at 5:07 PM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

@darth
posted by drezdn at 5:09 PM on July 30, 2016 [13 favorites]

So Bill Clinton is on the bus tour with Hillary and Kaine but isn't speaking. He just sat there opposite Kaine's wife smiling and clapping being the deferential candidate's spouse.

I know he'll have a larger role in the campaign/administration in days to come, as he should, but it is so satisfying watching him only get mentioned when she wants him to twirl and show his American-made shirt.
posted by acidic at 5:10 PM on July 30, 2016 [29 favorites]

I have it on good authority that @dril is actually Bill Clinton.
posted by sporkwort at 5:12 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

NFL: Trump Lying About Claim League Sent Letter to Him on Debate Schedule
posted by dw at 5:13 PM on July 30, 2016 [12 favorites]

Grandpa Bill Clinton is the best Bill Clinton.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:19 PM on July 30, 2016 [11 favorites]

Set up the "debate" in game show format.
I just saw the first 15 minutes of the "Revived" MADtv. (So you don't have to, but if you WANT to...) The first sketch has a depressed Wolf Blitzer ("what is my network making me DO?!?") hosting a Trump v. Clinton GAME SHOW with their spouses: "The Trulywed Game". The caricatures of Bill Clinton and The Donald are standard-variety (in fact, Bill comes off a little more buffoonish than Donald) and Melania is almost literally a trained dog (Donald tosses her some 'treats'). Hillary is played as constantly frustrated, but in the only non-jokey moment, she actually gets to point out several real issues in about 12 seconds until Bill interrupts her. For the big unfunny finish, Bill ends up making a deal with Trump to be HIS running mate. The lack of over-the-top caricature of Hillary is the best thing about the bit. (I wonder if the Real Bill saw the sketch before he decided to stay in the background on tour) But then, a few minutes later there's a sketch of a Hillary rally in which she's depicted as anxious and awkward in front of the audience then brings up Elizabeth Warren to speak for her and the Warren caricature starts ranting and rapping and dissing Trump mercilessly (a little but not much more coherently than a Trump rant, and not much funnier, since this IS MADtv) and The Crowd Goes Wild and Hillary's shocked/unamused/awkward response is supposed to be part of the joke. After Warren's exit, she goes, 'wellll...' and begins awkwardly trying to emulate a hip-hop approach and I expected something truly cringewothy, but after only a few seconds she just calls Warren back out and fades into the backgound. If this is going to be MADtv's approach in satirizing Hillary Clinton, the Hillary Haters won't have very much to grab onto.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:22 PM on July 30, 2016

Okay, now if the NFL says Trumpy is lying, then Surely This...
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:24 PM on July 30, 2016 [7 favorites]

There must be those in the GOP leadership who want to ensure Trump remains on the ballot and is humiliated. Not just as a means to try and moderate the party base; but more so because they are men with big egos whom Trump has insulted and belittled over the last year.

Hey this is a great point and makes a lot of sense! And it explains things like the rumors that Kasich is withholding a lot of material support in Ohio.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 5:28 PM on July 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

Bruce Bartlett: The Moderate Republican’s Case for Donald Trump: Only Trump can make the GOP sane again—by losing in a landslide to Hillary Clinton.
posted by homunculus at 5:30 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Little uplifting note here: at about 3:30PST today, the Pocket Constitution was #9 on Amazon's list of best-selling books. All categories.

As of 5:30pm, it has fallen to #12, but still...thank you, Mr. and Mrs. Khan.
(Note: the Kindle version is free. Y'know. For all you MeFites who don't already have this on your phone or tablet or whatever for some reason. Now is a good time to get it.)
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:30 PM on July 30, 2016 [34 favorites]

Little uplifting note here: at about 3:30PST today, the Pocket Constitution was #9 on Amazon's list of best-selling books. All categories.

Just to check, is that the one with the moon law commentary?
posted by Artw at 5:31 PM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

Exclusive @FiveThirtyEight projection on what the Electoral College would look like if women refuse to vote Trump
posted by rabbitrabbit at 5:34 PM on July 30, 2016 [10 favorites]

That Bruce Bartlett piece is from over a year ago, yes? I wonder what he thinks now.
posted by Justinian at 5:36 PM on July 30, 2016

Oliver and Colbert on America's stepdad
posted by salix at 5:37 PM on July 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

The irony is, a little less than $500k a year is still a ton of money; only Trump would be embarrassed by only making that much.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:45 PM on July 30, 2016 [6 favorites]

If the NFL claims they didn't send him a letter, I'm inclined to think they must have done so.

Or he received a snarky letter from the National Forensic League saying "dude, cancel your debate."
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:47 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Hey don't knock Tim Kaine. My Romney-voting parents who hate Clinton but hate Trump even more are enamored with Kaine and have now started telling folks who ask that they're "voting for Tim Kaine this year." I'll take it!
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 5:47 PM on July 30, 2016 [35 favorites]

"Donald Trump was the recipient of a middle-class tax exemption here in New York known as “STAR”. It’s reserved for people earning under $500,000 per year, and it acts to exempt some of the assessed value of a person’s primary residence from school taxes. Trump’s campaign spokeswoman said Trump would refund an amount equal to the STAR exemption, claiming it was all an “error”. But it was applied again in 2016.... The STAR exemption could not have been made in “error”; it is not automatic. An eligible middle-class homeowner must affirmatively apply to receive a STAR exemption."

Meredith!
posted by box at 5:47 PM on July 30, 2016 [49 favorites]

Exclusive @FiveThirtyEight projection on what the Electoral College would look like if women refuse to vote Trump

Why is that a 270toWin map?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:48 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

So on the one hand we have the NFL claiming they didn't send Donald Trump a letter and on the other we have Donald Trump claiming they received it. I suspect one of the two:
1: The letter was sent but got lost in the post.
2: The letter asked Donald Trump to have the debate.
posted by Francis at 5:50 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

The irony is, a little less than $500k a year is still a ton of money; only Trump would be embarrassed by only making that much.

It would be a lot more embarrassing if he submitted fraudulent returns to get a measly (to him) few hundred bucks off his property tax bill.
posted by ctmf at 5:51 PM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

i can't vouch for the source, but this article claims that trump can't release his tax returns because they would show his adjusted gross income is less than 500k, making him eligible for a middle-class property tax break

He definitely took the tax break, as reported extensively by Crain's, but there were also statements by the mayor's office that it was a mistake.

Meanwhile, how about the fact that NYS gives you a middle class tax break if you make $499K/year?
posted by zachlipton at 5:51 PM on July 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

They might have a good api? Sam Wang is linking to one as well.
posted by The Gaffer at 5:51 PM on July 30, 2016

Talking about 538, and realizing they may have some kind of lag, I think they just showed Trumps chances increasing post DNC. :-(
posted by Artw at 5:52 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Why on earth would the NFL send Trump a letter? That claim makes no sense. If the NFL wanted to complain about TV scheduling conflicts, they'd either do it directly to the Commission on Presidential Debates or they would go through their broadcast partners.

Roger Goodell aside, the NFL isn't completely stupid. They have to be smart enough to avoid engaging Donald Trump in any way, positive or negative.
posted by zachlipton at 5:55 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

I really hope the tax returns thing sticks around like Obama's birth certificate. I hope people keep hounding for those tax returns and ask what he is hiding and what he is so afraid of.
posted by VTX at 5:58 PM on July 30, 2016 [7 favorites]

If Trump pulls out of the debates, they should just have Clinton debate Kaine's Trump impression.
posted by dirigibleman at 5:59 PM on July 30, 2016 [50 favorites]

Or, the NFL people would call Trump's people on the telephone and do this in back channels instead of sending him a weird letter like its 1956. The fact he said letter is the weirdest part to me.
posted by gatorae at 6:02 PM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump rescued by firefighters before blasting Colorado Springs Fire Marshal

Trump was reportedly trapped inside an elevator at The Mining Exchange Hotel with ten other people 30 minutes before the event was scheduled to begin at 2 p.m.

Firefighters were able to open the top elevator hatch and lower a ladder into the elevator so all parties, including Trump, could safely evacuate into the second-floor lobby area of the hotel, KRDO said.
posted by mediareport at 6:06 PM on July 30, 2016 [32 favorites]

> I hope people keep hounding for those tax returns and ask what he is hiding and what he is so afraid of.

Tim Kaine's schtick about it is amazing. I hope they just do 10 second youtube clips of Kaine doing his Trump impersonation with whatever denial he comes up with next.
posted by mrzarquon at 6:11 PM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump was reportedly trapped inside an elevator at The Mining Exchange Hotel with ten other people 30 minutes before the event was scheduled to begin at 2 p.m.

Oh please please please please can we get the security camera footage from that elevator. Juicy.
posted by dis_integration at 6:12 PM on July 30, 2016 [10 favorites]

That Bruce Bartlett piece is from over a year ago, yes? I wonder what he thinks now.

Bruce Bartlett: The Republican Party Has Become the Party of Hate

“My goal is to destroy the Republican Party”: Former Reagan adviser Bruce Bartlett explains his vote for Donald Trump
posted by homunculus at 6:13 PM on July 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

Well I mean obviously the NFL has had an axe to grind against Donald ever since he helped run that competing league into the ground.
posted by ckape at 6:17 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

I guess that's good and all but where was Bartlett when his boss, Reagan, was spouting off about welfare queens and black bucks buying t-bone steaks with food stamps? I don't really see Trump as all that different from St. Ronnie.
posted by octothorpe at 6:21 PM on July 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

Hmmm... I can't wear political stuff at work, but surely I can wear New Jersey Generals merch... brb, eBaying.
posted by box at 6:25 PM on July 30, 2016

Reagan at least wanted to have an America, Trump wants to have a police state.
posted by vrakatar at 6:25 PM on July 30, 2016 [6 favorites]

The firefighter elevator thing is enough to make me think we're definitely living in a simulation and this is all an insane joke.

Trump as The Joker?
posted by Justinian at 6:25 PM on July 30, 2016

If Trump has a problem with the Commission on Presidential Debates that's fine, we can just scrap it and go back to having the League of Women Voters host the debates instead.

In fact, let's do that anyway.
posted by ckape at 6:27 PM on July 30, 2016 [28 favorites]

Well I mean obviously the NFL has had an axe to grind ~~against~~ FOR Donald ever since he helped run that competing league into the ground.

After his incompetence killed the USFL, the NFL would do ANYTHING for him... except let him buy an interest in one of their teams.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:28 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

I absolutely agree that Republican action for decades has led us almost inevitably to Trump, but when the future of the US is at stake, now might not be the best time to point fingers about the past and reject an ally against him. Yes, they crossed the line long ago, but I'd rather have them realize it late than never and have them pulling on our side of the tug-of-war than on the other side. In getting moderates and sane Republicans to cross over, they are probably the best advocates.
posted by chris24 at 6:29 PM on July 30, 2016 [8 favorites]

Yeah, Bartlett wants Trump to lose in a landslide, which means he's With Her (for at least this cycle.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:33 PM on July 30, 2016

So, Trump can produce the NFL letter, right? Or is it being audited?

Put another way - how long can he keep the whole cloth fantasising going now he's earned the spotlight? 100 days seems a bit of a reach.
posted by Devonian at 6:35 PM on July 30, 2016 [8 favorites]

the fact that NYS gives you a middle class tax break if you make $499K/year?

Not New York State. New York City.
posted by waitingtoderail at 6:36 PM on July 30, 2016

Little uplifting note here: at about 3:30PST today, the Pocket Constitution was #9 on Amazon's list of best-selling books. All categories.

I'm still trying to figure out exactly which pocket constitution that is...

Not New York State. New York City.

STAR is NYS. I knows because I gets it.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:40 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Oliver and Colbert on America's stepdad yt

Who did "America's Stepdad" first? I saw it here, but it's obvious enough that I could see multiple instances of it popping up simultaneously.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:40 PM on July 30, 2016

New York City. Where the cost of living is pretty damn high. Partly because of the grossly overpriced rentals in buildings with the name "TRUMP" on them.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:40 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

What Should We Call Bill Clinton if Hillary Is Elected?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:42 PM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

Don't forget Russians parking cash in real estate they rarely use.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:42 PM on July 30, 2016

Idea for advert: find people who live in shitty trumpy buildings and get them in front of the camera.
posted by vrakatar at 6:43 PM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

Wow. I'm wrong. You're right. My mistake, I had no idea. That's nuts.
posted by waitingtoderail at 6:44 PM on July 30, 2016

Just to check, is that the one with the moon law commentary?

I wish I hadn't checked the Amazon top ten just now. It's a big week for Clinton Conspiracy Fanfic books, looks like. Not all nineties reboots are fun.

Hamilton's doing really well too tho
posted by EatTheWeek at 6:44 PM on July 30, 2016

What Should We Call Bill Clinton if Hillary Is Elected?

I know it's really "first gentleman" but I kinda hope he asks for "first bubba" or "national grandpa."
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:46 PM on July 30, 2016 [8 favorites]

What Should We Call Bill Clinton if Hillary Is Elected? Away. As often as possible.

It's a big week for Clinton Conspiracy Fanfic books, looks like. Well, the right wing wackos who don't WANT to support Trump have to put their money somewhere, and at least it's not to downticket races.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:48 PM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

I don't really see Trump as all that different from St. Ronnie.

Candidates Reagan & Bush-41 Discuss Illegal Immigration in 1980 Debate.
We could also talk about little things like our commitments to NATO and Japan, or gun control, or speaking with basic humanity. Hell, we could probably go on for hours.

I'm no fan of Reagan. At all. Dude was an awful president in a lot of ways. But false equivalency is false equivalency, and it's not any cooler when it's aimed at two people I don't like than it is when people try to say Trump and Clinton aren't any different.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:50 PM on July 30, 2016 [14 favorites]

>> Every time I see BoBs in these threads I think of Outkast

>I think of the artist B.o.B. yt , and when people talk about "Busters" I interpret it according to this definition.

Just to be that guy, but B.o.B. took his artist name from the Outkast song. Not that that's a bad thing.

"buster" meaning "punk-ass" definitely predates him, though.
posted by lkc at 6:52 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'd love to see either the STAR thing or the NFL one get some legs. They're both simple, relatable--there probably won't be a surely this moment, but there are a lot of people that are just now starting to pay attention, and that can be chipped away between now and November.
posted by box at 6:53 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

the fact that NYS gives you a middle class tax break if you make $499K/year?

Look at it this way: NYS has two different property tax rates. One for rich-as-fuck jerkbags, and the other for everyone else. Even the one for everyone else is pretty eye-watering, but OTOH you do get back usually good schools and other services that don't suck donkey balls. That oughta get the MCRN off our backs...
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:53 PM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

Look at it this way: NYS has two different property tax rates. One for rich-as-fuck jerkbags, and the other for everyone else. Even the one for everyone else is pretty eye-watering, but OTOH you do get back usually good schools and other services that don't suck donkey balls. That oughta get the MCRN off our backs...

And the people who are actually poor get a bigger tax break still.

It's more wealth redistribution rather than a tax break.
posted by Talez at 6:55 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

I feel like he will be crushed by his own words and our one lasting image of him will be him mocking the disabled reporter.

In previous DNC threads, that still image has polled as causing the most negative reaction against Trump.

I wish. One of my cousins posted a comment about that image on FB. Another cousin's ex wife jumped in to DEFEND Trump and not by saying that he didn't say it, but that he didn't say it while the disabled reporter was actually in the room. In her mind it's ok for Trump to mock a disabled person because she thought she didn't do it to his face.

What makes it even more perplexing is that yet another cousin, her ex husband's sister, has a child with Down's Syndrome that she has known since he was born. She has a disabled nephew and STILL found a way to defend this shit.
posted by hollygoheavy at 6:56 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

What Should We Call Bill Clinton if Hillary Is Elected?

Confusingly, a lot of modern (apparently incorrect, according to Emily Post) usage would address him as "President Clinton". Now, this was also a problem for "President Bush", and might have very briefly been a problem for "President Adams", but neither GHWB nor John Adams was nearly as much in the public eye during their son's term as we might reasonably expect Bill Clinton to be during his wife's.
posted by jackbishop at 6:56 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

>> Every time I see BoBs in these threads I think of Outkast

>I think of the artist B.o.B. yt , and when people talk about "Busters" I interpret it according to this definition.

Born on board. (Old skool!)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:58 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

I believe the media has used President George H.W. Bush to differentiate the two. Or, many of them call him "Poppy" Bush.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:03 PM on July 30, 2016

Confusingly, a lot of modern (apparently incorrect, according to Emily Post) usage would address him as "President Clinton".

OK, this might disappear b/c the mods don't like honorific discussions, but the rule is you use the highest title someone has achieved. Normally this is simple. I would argue that POTUS and FGOTUS are equal and so you should use the most recent of those.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:03 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

The NY Post has tomorrow cover story up of naked pix of Melania. I'm not sure what's worse, Trump probably leaking naked photos of his wife to the Post to distract from his craven comments about the Khans, or the Post running them on the front page. I despise Trump beyond words, but Melania's modeling past isn't news and shouldn't be an election consideration. There's so much awfulness about him, we don't need to be slut-shaming her.
posted by chris24 at 7:05 PM on July 30, 2016 [24 favorites]

PPP says they'll have a post-convention poll out in the next hour or so and that Democrats will be fairly happy with it. Said they would be even happier if not for the unreasonable hopes given by the +15 Clinton poll out this morning. I'm betting on a 6-7 point bounce from PPP.
posted by Justinian at 7:06 PM on July 30, 2016

FGOTUS is a dreadful acronym though. Bubba Clinton. Bubba of The United States. BOTUS.
posted by EatTheWeek at 7:07 PM on July 30, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'm betting on a 6-7 point bounce from PPP.

Since their last poll had C +4, that would mean this poll will be +10 for Clinton. I doubt it's that high, but that'd be great!
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 7:08 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

So the NY Post has tomorrow cover story up of naked pix of Melania. I'm not sure what's worse, Trump probably leaking naked photos of his wife to the Post to distract from his craven comments about the Khans, or the Post running them on the front page. I hate Trump beyond words, but Melania's modeling past isn't news and shouldn't be an election consideration. There's so much awfulness about him, we don't need to be slut-shaming her.

Yeah this is pretty bizarre. Those photographs have been "leaked" for a long time, and last came up in the whole Cruz/Trump Wife Kerfuffle (the more important plagiarism of the campaign being Cruz's cribbing of Michael Douglas in The American President. Thanks MEREDITH). European model poses nude is not exactly news. Have they seen the French Vogue?
posted by dis_integration at 7:09 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Born on board. (Old skool!)

Frog blast the vent core!

So far in the last 24 hours, the human Cheeto has managed to disparage a Gold Star mother, lie about the NFL, lie about the Koch brothers, and belittle the award-winning fire marshal who'd just saved him from an elevator because the room was at capacity.

Trump Pence 2016: There is always more and it is always worse.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 7:11 PM on July 30, 2016 [34 favorites]

President Consort
posted by ckape at 7:11 PM on July 30, 2016 [15 favorites]

Since their last poll had C +4, that would mean this poll will be +10 for Clinton. I doubt it's that high, but that'd be great!

Yeah, I wasn't taking their previous friendly-to-Clinton poll into account. I don't see them being +10 or +11 for Clinton at this point, maybe +8 or +9. So that would only be a 4 point bounce. Still, +8 or +9 Clinton will mean I can stop sniffing glue this week.
posted by Justinian at 7:11 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'd be really surprised if polls next week aren't even better for Clinton. The Khan story is just horrible for Trump.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 7:12 PM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yeah this is pretty bizarre.

Yep. I can see Trump trying to push them now to distract, but why would the Post decide now is the time to run them when they could've before. I guess Murdoch has decided to try and help Trump. In a very weird way.
posted by chris24 at 7:13 PM on July 30, 2016

nathan_teske: "Paraphrasing here but their problem is that if you pull him off the campaign trail to keep him from saying dumb things he gets on Twitter and says dumb things."

If Trump unusual in actually running his own twitter? I would have figured any politician above the dog catcher level would have a campaign staff handling it to avoid unintentional gaffs.

ThePinkSuperhero: "The irony is, a little less than $500k a year is still a ton of money; only Trump would be embarrassed by only making that much."

To be fair it is figured on countrywide family income; Trump could be making a lot less.

gatorae: "Or, the NFL people would call Trump's people on the telephone and do this in back channels instead of sending him a weird letter like its 1956. The fact he said letter is the weirdest part to me."

Remember he thinks electrons can be hacked; letters are delivered by courier.
posted by Mitheral at 7:13 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump is like a buffoonish version of Mr. Burns. Bring me some petroleum distillate for my motor carriage post haste, Smithers!
posted by Justinian at 7:16 PM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

Botus, you say? I grew up not that far from Botus, as tiz called,, and tiz best known for The Hole In The Wall, aka the Rising Sun pub, which serves proper turn-yer-shit-yellow scrumpy from a barrel behind the bar with a tap that squeaks, but only in half-pint measures because tiz proper lethal, m'lover.

So that may be appropriate.
posted by Devonian at 7:16 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

@(Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates
I'd be really surprised if polls next week aren't even better for Clinton. The Khan story is just horrible for Trump.

You would like to think so. But this comment from a right-wing blog I follow says it all:

Its not about Trump as such. Its more about giving the finger to the establishment and all their bullshit that they have dished up to us plebs over the years. It’s now payback time and they don’t like whats coming at them in November.

So Trump's boast about shooting someone and not losing any votes rings true for his supporters. They are just angry and in a rage about the world. They are beyond reason I suspect.
posted by vac2003 at 7:21 PM on July 30, 2016 [13 favorites]

Husband of the United States, or, HOTUS
posted by gerryblog at 7:23 PM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

I think you're wrong when it comes to criticizing a Gold Star military family.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 7:23 PM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yeah this is pretty bizarre.

I mean FFS, the article about the Melania pictures has a positive, non-angry quote from him about the images. He's clearly in on it.

"When asked about the photos, Trump told The Post: “Melania was one of the most successful models and she did many photo shoots, including for covers and major magazines. This was a picture taken for a European magazine prior to my knowing Melania. In Europe, pictures like this are very fashionable and common.”
posted by chris24 at 7:24 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

scaryblackdeath: " the Kindle version is free. Y'know. For all you MeFites who don't already have this on your phone or tablet or whatever for some reason. Now is a good time to get it."

As is the Canadian Constitution. I'd guess most constitutions are though I'm not going to do the research to determine veracity of a google search for assorted countries constitutions.

roomthreeseventeen: "I believe the media has used President George H.W. Bush to differentiate the two. Or, many of them call him "Poppy" Bush."

Yes, this seems like a non-issue just by inserting first names whenever there might be confusion.

Or President Elect Clinton could avoid it and go for maximum head explodey action and announce a name change to Hillary Diane Clinton Rodham on January 19th forthwith to be known as President Rodham. Thereby also making it easier on 3rd graders memorizing the presidents in the future. Rodham is a better Presidential name anyways.

Actually I guess MAXIMUM head explodey action would be if she went full catholic style and chose a brand new name ala the popes.
posted by Mitheral at 7:24 PM on July 30, 2016 [11 favorites]

Looking at sites like 270towin have helped me to kick my glue-sniffing habit. The states they list as toss-ups? All but one (NC) went for Obama twice. Of their ten toss-up states, four are ones that Trump didn't win in the primary (CO, IA, OH, WI), and some of the others (e.g. NH), he won on a fluke. He's not going to win NC or NV or VA, and OH and PA seem like longshots. FL might be close, but it won't decide the election. Hillary is Ether Nas--she will not lose.
posted by box at 7:24 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

I mean, this is the Republican Governor of Ohio. This attack just might be different than the others.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 7:25 PM on July 30, 2016 [9 favorites]

New PPP poll: Clinton +5 (including Johnson & Stein)

Likeability improved by 9, from -15 to -6, vs Trump's -22

"Undecideds" lean Democratic. If these voters embrace Clinton, she'd be at +8.
posted by GameDesignerBen at 7:31 PM on July 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

PPP poll is out:

Clinton's net favorability improved by 9 points over the last month. She's still not popular, with a -6 net favorability at 45/51, but it's a good deal better than the -15 spread she had at 39/54 a month ago. The gains are particularly attributable to Democrats increasing in their enthusiasm for her, going from giving her a 76/15 rating to an 83/12 one. Trump, on the other hand, is at a -22 net favorability with 36% of voters seeing him favorably to 58% with a negative one. That's barely changed at all from the 35/58 standing we found for him in late June.

Clinton leads the race with 46% to 41% for Trump, with Gary Johnson at 6% and Jill Stein at 2%. In a head to head just between Clinton and Trump, Clinton hits 50% and leads Trump 50-45. A month ago Clinton led 45-41 in the full field contest and 48-44 in the head to head so there hasn't been much change. But not much change is good news for Clinton. We've been writing for months that this race is shaping up pretty similarly both nationally and at the state level to the margins Barack Obama won by in 2012- not a huge landslide by any means, but a solid victory. The conventions have passed without any change to that big picture, and that leaves Clinton as the favorite going into the final three months.

It's also important to note that most of the remaining undecided pool is very Democratic leaning. They give Barack Obama a 55/33 approval rating, and they'd rather have him as President than Trump by a 59/10 spread. If they ended up voting for Clinton and Trump by those proportions, it would push Clinton's lead up from 5 points to 8. But they don't like Clinton (a 4/83 favorability) or Trump (a 2/89 favorability). A lot of these folks are disaffected Bernie Sanders voters, and even after the successful convention this week they're still not sold on Clinton yet. She and her surrogates will have to keep working to try to win those folks over and if they can the election enters landslide territory

posted by zachlipton at 7:31 PM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

Jinx
posted by GameDesignerBen at 7:33 PM on July 30, 2016

Eh, still gonna sniff glue. That's the same lead as before. Booooo.
posted by Justinian at 7:34 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

"33% [of Trump supporters] think Clinton even has ties to Lucifer, to 36% who say they don't think so, and 31% who are unsure either way."

PPP have the best troll questions.
posted by GameDesignerBen at 7:37 PM on July 30, 2016 [29 favorites]

PPP: By a 47 point margin- 5% more likely, 52% less likely- voters say they're less likely to vote for a candidate if it's perceived Russia is interfering in the election to try to help them.

hahahahahaha
posted by acidic at 7:37 PM on July 30, 2016 [7 favorites]

From that poll: 74% of Trump voters think Clinton should be in prison, to only 12% who disagree

That Benghazi Investigation was the most effective political ratfucking in history. The mind reels. Haven't these people heard of innocent until proven guilty in a court of law?

Yeah, glue sniffing is in order.
posted by dis_integration at 7:38 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Harambe outpolls Stein
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 7:40 PM on July 30, 2016 [8 favorites]

So the NY Post has tomorrow cover story up of naked pix of Melania. I'm not sure what's worse, Trump probably leaking naked photos

Is there some reason we need to go further with this than the Post? Speculating about who leaked those photos is pointless. The Post is run by adults--ostensibly, at least--and they're making this decision themselves. They don't get any free passes based on who sent that stuff to them. This is an absolutely awful thing for them to do, full stop.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 7:41 PM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm pretty sure I wasn't excusing the Post, but rather saying they were both awful and inexcusable.
posted by chris24 at 7:43 PM on July 30, 2016

Seriously, PPP are the best polling trolls bar none.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 7:43 PM on July 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

With the Khizr Khan thing, for the first time, I'm beginning to wonder - could the entire Trump candidacy really be a gag put together by Bill and Hillary? Or is it really some out of control Producers-esque scam?

How can Trump lack the tiniest bit of self control? All he needed to do was not engage with the family of a dead soldier - "I'm sorry for their loss, I honor their sacrifice, Obama and Clinton sent their son to war without body armor" - or whatever. Instead, those clips of Khan at the convention are getting airtime for the third straight day, along with Stephanopoulos looking stunned as he double checks with Trump that employing people was a "sacrifice" on his part.

What is wrong with this man?
posted by RedOrGreen at 7:43 PM on July 30, 2016 [21 favorites]

I'd say I think they believe Clinton should be in prison not for Benghazi but for her email practices but that's giving Trump voters too much credit. They don't care what the justification is they simply want to see Clinton humiliated and imprisoned by any means necessary.
posted by Justinian at 7:44 PM on July 30, 2016 [9 favorites]

Also Obama has risen to 53% approve 43% disapprove of his job in the Gallup tracking poll.
posted by humanfont at 7:45 PM on July 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'd say I think they believe Clinton should be in prison not for Benghazi but for her email practices but that's giving Trump voters too much credit. They don't care what the justification is they simply want to see Clinton humiliated and imprisoned by any means necessary.

Yeah but the whole email thing is a product of the Benghazi Commission or whatever, which was a political operation from the beginning.
posted by dis_integration at 7:46 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

So Trump's boast about shooting someone and not losing any votes rings true for his supporters. They are just angry and in a rage about the world. They are beyond reason I suspect.

That's certain - and regrettable. But there aren't enough of them to win the general election. Yet Trump can't do without them: he might be able to go postal in Times Square and still keep them on board, but what he can't do is suddenly pivot into a mainstream politician. His play is that enough of the rest of the electorate will buy into that, I suspect because he was seduced by the passion of his core supporters, and that's not going to happen.

He's gutted the GOP and draped himself in the shit-filled viscera, but apart from a few blue-arsed flies ain't nobody else gonna touch that. The US is not cosplaying the last days of the Weimar Republic, it really is still the greatest show on earth, and while (thanks to the GOP either setting the agenda or blocking it) it is very bad at sharing that with large chunks of its citizens, it's still the legitimate operator of the American Dream.

Clinton is set on reminding people of all this, and she has 100 days to do that against what is now a dysfunctional one-man party with absolutely no depth of defence or resource.

I know the polls don't reflect what we see as self-evident. It's a big country, and there's a lot of inertia. It's entirely possible that Trump's instinctive media sense will keep his imposed reality chugging down the tracks for a while, and by god don't any of you dare let up for a microsecond. But really - take a step back and look at the armies on either side.
posted by Devonian at 7:48 PM on July 30, 2016 [20 favorites]

Trump is fundamentally a bully and he saw in the Khan's an easy victim because that's what bullies typically focus on.

Trump of course went full stereotype and implied Mrs Khan wasn't allowed to talk. And then he compared their relative sacrifices.

When he's feeling pressed that's what he turns to 6th grade bully tactics. Same thing happened when he was making fun of the journalist for having a disability. That's the sort of shit you halfway expect out of a spoiled 12 year old not a 70+ year old man. Emotionally though I guess he's still probably back in middle school.
posted by vuron at 7:52 PM on July 30, 2016 [10 favorites]

I'm glad about the polling, but the thing that makes this still rather depressing is that these people who are rejecting Clinton even if it means increasing Trump's election chances are friends of mine. I'm looking around on Facebook, and there is a group of people who just keep liking each other's posts who are really deep down the conspiracy hole. Many of these are scientists and graduate students, who should be able to distinguish between a good source of information and a bad one - and yet, there they are, posting things from Jill Stein's Meme Site, and falling over themselves to believe that Hillary Clinton is the literal devil. I don't know how to liberate them from this madness, and it's sad because this is our big chance - a real chance for a landslide, to get some actual movement towards progressive goals, maybe take back the Senate or House - and instead, they're giving it all away for some weird idea of purity. I don't get it.
posted by peacheater at 7:52 PM on July 30, 2016 [16 favorites]

How And Why Trump Will Try to Ditch the Debates
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:55 PM on July 30, 2016

"If Trump unusual in actually running his own twitter? I would have figured any politician above the dog catcher level would have a campaign staff handling it to avoid unintentional gaffs."

If Trump's running his own twitter account, you just know his password is ASDF or some shit like that.
posted by klarck at 7:56 PM on July 30, 2016

If Trump's running his own twitter account, you just know his password is ASDF or some shit like that.

12345
posted by entropicamericana at 7:58 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

TRUMP. His password is TRUMP.

I... actually think this might be true.
posted by Justinian at 7:59 PM on July 30, 2016 [42 favorites]

I googled and it has to have 6 characters though

Probably TRUMPTRUMP then
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:01 PM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

"If Trump unusual in actually running his own twitter? I would have figured any politician above the dog catcher level would have a campaign staff handling it to avoid unintentional gaffs."

Inside Donald Trump's Twitter Operation: ""During the day, I'm in the office, I just shout it out to one of the young ladies, who are tremendous," he said during the appearance.

Trump went on to say that after about 7 p.m., he operates the Twitter feed himself."

So half the time he's yelling out tweets (probably while watching cable news) to the Mad Men style secretaries he of course employs, and after they finally leave the office, he takes over personally. Twitter might be the only thing he's competent at doing, for some values of "competent".
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:02 PM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

BIGHANDS
posted by chris24 at 8:03 PM on July 30, 2016 [11 favorites]

The Khans responded to Trumps attacks to ABC News tonight (auto-playing video):

"Sacrifice -- I don't think he knows the meaning of sacrifice, the meaning of the word," Ghazala Khan, mother of slain Army Captain Humayun Kahn said. "Because when I was standing there, all America felt my pain. Without saying a single word. Everybody felt that pain."

"Running for president is not an entitlement to disrespect Gold Star families and [a] Gold Star mother not realizing her pain. Shame on him! Shame on his family!" Khizr Khan said, struggling to hold back his anger. "He is not worthy of our comments. He has no decency. He is void of decency, he has a dark heart."

In response to Trump's suggestion that Ghazala Khan did not speak at the DNC because it was forbidden by her religion, she said today the real reason she remained silent was her all-consuming grief.

"I didn't feel anything except the pain," she said through tears, before pleading: "Mr. Trump feel that pain and you will feel better. Please. I am very upset when I heard when he said that I didn't say anything. I was in pain. If you were in pain you fight or you don't say anything, I’m not a fighter, I can't fight. So the best thing I do was quiet."

posted by zachlipton at 8:03 PM on July 30, 2016 [115 favorites]

I'm assuming Trump made up the NFL letter thing because he realized his tweet made it sound like he was afraid to go up against the NFL so he just made up shit to make it sound like it was the NFL that was afraid of going up against him.
posted by ckape at 8:06 PM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

In email statement, Trump keeps insisting he was wronged by Khizr Khan. No walkback of comments on Ghazala Khan. (NYT)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:06 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trump seems to think that "Have you even read the United States Constitution?" was a literal question akin to an English teacher asking if a student even did the reading and not a rhetorical device. Of course, Trump vowed to defend Article XII, which does make me think that both the literal and figurative questions are perfectly appropriate here.
posted by zachlipton at 8:13 PM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

The Khans' response cannot be favorited enough. And while it's poignant, heartbreaking and justifiable, I'm sure Trump will be unable to help himself in responding even more harshly. It will be sweet karma indeed if this amazing Muslim couple helps cost him the election.
posted by chris24 at 8:14 PM on July 30, 2016 [10 favorites]

I can't decide if I should cry at Mrs. Khan's lovely but utterly needless response, or screamcackle at Trump's response. He is in a death spiral of narcissism, this is incredible.
posted by gatorae at 8:15 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

NYTimes: People, Places and Things Donald Trump Has Insulted on Twitter: A Complete List

Currently numbering 250.
posted by ZeusHumms at 8:18 PM on July 30, 2016 [17 favorites]

Between how Trump spoke about POWs in regards to Senator McCain and how he's treating these Gold Star parents, I have to imagine he's alienating a good chunk of the US military. I would not vote for a perfect progressive who said that kind of crap and I'm just an adult Air Force brat.
posted by Joey Michaels at 8:20 PM on July 30, 2016 [17 favorites]

Fuck Trump. This motherfucker can't be allowed to even sniff the throne of power.
posted by Talez at 8:21 PM on July 30, 2016 [8 favorites]

"buster" meaning "punk-ass" definitely predates him, though.

At least back to when it was referenced as a synonym to "scrub."
posted by dw at 8:23 PM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

> NYTimes: People, Places and Things Donald Trump Has Insulted on Twitter: A Complete List

Interesting that of all of the "Places" he has Twitter-insulted, the United States is at the top of the list.
posted by Salieri at 8:25 PM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

Who else can the Democrats bait Trump into starting beef with? How much lower can you go than "talking shit about the bereaved parents of a heroic soldier who died saving lives"? Like, will Trump start shit with the little girl with undocumented parents who spoke at the DNC?

I mean, I'm laugh/crying in horror here. We're far beyond the "surely, this" moment here, but we might as well make it worse, I guess. We might as well just keep engineering situations where Trump bullies and insults such sacrosanct categories as grieving parents of dead soldiers, innocent children, POWs, whatever.
posted by yasaman at 8:25 PM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

Apparently the fire marshal, Brett Lacey, was named Civilian of the Year in February for his work after the shooting at the Colorado Springs Planned Parenthood clinic in November. msnbc
posted by gatorae at 8:28 PM on July 30, 2016 [42 favorites]

The Khans' response cannot be favorited enough.

I sacrificed nothing. I don't deserve those favorites.

That family though. I honestly hope everyone can just leave them the hell alone for a while, though I doubt that can happen.
posted by zachlipton at 8:28 PM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

NYTimes: People, Places and Things Donald Trump Has Insulted on Twitter: A Complete List

United States
NATION
“it will only get worse!”“a divided crime scene”“not looking tough!”“not looking smart”“not looking good”“totally lost control of illegal immigration, even with criminals”“get tough and smart U.S., or we won't have a country anymore”“looks more and more like a paper tiger”“we are weak”“we are letting criminals knowingly stay in our country”“Iran ripped us off by making one of the best deals of any kind in history”“out negotiated again”“has become a dumping ground for the world”
posted by T.D. Strange at 8:29 PM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

Hillary's Hamilton logo
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:31 PM on July 30, 2016 [10 favorites]

she said today the real reason she remained silent was her all-consuming grief.

She was incredibly brave, more so than her husband and he took on the biggest bully in town and rocked him down.

Tremendous.
posted by petebest at 8:32 PM on July 30, 2016 [11 favorites]

yasaman: "How much lower can you go than "talking shit about the bereaved parents of a heroic soldier who died saving lives"?"

There must be at least one 9/11 hero of the NYPD we can get him to call a pussy; preferably one who died.
posted by Mitheral at 8:32 PM on July 30, 2016

A friend just pointed out that the evil yam attacked and insulted General John Allen too. General Allen retired because his wife fell ill.

To hell with Trump, his enablers and his supporters.
posted by Joey Michaels at 8:43 PM on July 30, 2016 [9 favorites]

Let's find a way to get him to say he hates Mr. Rogers.
posted by stolyarova at 8:43 PM on July 30, 2016 [18 favorites]

The Florida Gators would be my target.
posted by Artw at 8:44 PM on July 30, 2016 [6 favorites]

Puppies? Kittens?
posted by stolyarova at 8:48 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Who else can the Democrats bait Trump into starting beef with?

The cynical part of me thinks this has to have been a guiding principle of speaker selection for the DNC -- so many "here to tell her story with quiet dignity, is a sympathetic person, with one obvious attribute that a schoolyard bully would make fun of" speakers. I'm surprised his people have been able to keep him from publicly making fun of more of the speakers.
posted by LobsterMitten at 8:49 PM on July 30, 2016 [8 favorites]

Hillary's Hamilton logo

You know they shot him, right?
posted by zachlipton at 8:50 PM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

But given that Bernie Sanders would be the closest thing Hillary has to an Aaron Burr figure right now...
posted by Francis at 8:52 PM on July 30, 2016

the "Revived" MADtv.

Quantum Loop re-boot threat level: elevated
posted by thelonius at 8:55 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Do you think anyone on his staff currently actually gives a shit about him actually winning? As long as they are still getting paychecks, I'm pretty sure that the ghouls he is employing don't care one way or another what happens. Anyone who does actually have any fucks would have been felled by ulcers months ago. The only people left are those who are okay with letting him do whatever the hell he wants. You think Manafort gives a flying fig? I don't.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:55 PM on July 30, 2016 [14 favorites]

It'll just be here, on this street, which is all different people and changing all the time, that I think my biggest hurdle is getting people out there to vote- if I get everyone I talk to to commit to getting to a voting booth to know that their vote CAN matter, I am more fired up, more ready to go than I ever have been.

Because this election is unprecedented. rorgy made this. Which everyone in any positions of power needs to know. Those of us who've had awesome technology at our fingertips for what might as well be a lifetime don't get it, have taken it for granted. This is a thing that should be obvious. Thanks to all the people working toward this that Hillary, in what should be the most-televised thing everyone sees until after she's elected, mentioned Twitter and Hamilton and children and health care and just called everyone in this country together to say, "yeah. There's a lot of shit we disagree on but we can't afford to fuck this up."

OBVS.

How much? How much does that speak. I think we're all really coming around to something that was constant and apprent years ago (thanks to technology), that pointing out obvious bullshit is not just possible, but codifiable, and it's just sorta now reaching those who write the rules that could really put you in a cell.

Just the last couple weeks we've seen voter registration amplifiable. I want some big, undeniable words to come out of this: #UNDENIABLE. #SEACHANGE. #REALIGNMENT #SEECHANGE or #AMPLIFY. I'm making this up as I go, saying this from my acknowledgedly privelaged position as a cis het white dude who loves and lives with a woman born in the US and raised in Mexico , with parents who I can barely embarrasedly communicate with because my brain switches to German, not Spanish, when I want to speak something that isn't English, whose daughter just turned three and I'm not even talking about kids or girls or anything, here.

Voting-bullshit laws have been thrown out. With prejudice.

I live and vote in Texas. I don't want to let Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, and Molly Ivins down.
posted by rp at 8:56 PM on July 30, 2016 [7 favorites]

which baby is most in need of a nap?
posted by salix at 9:05 PM on July 30, 2016 [8 favorites]

I'm also not so sure the debates would go well for Hillary. She's excellent, but surely she's only ever debated rational actors. His constant vicious insults and Gish Galloping might literally overtake her.

She kept her cool through 11 hours of the latest Benghazi hearing. She can handle a debate. I just hopes she brushes Trump off.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:09 PM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

salix, the one in the middle
posted by stolyarova at 9:11 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Currently numbering 250

With the right application of machine learning, RNC databases and electoral roll data, and tweet automation, I'd back him to go the whole hog and individually insult every enrolled voter in the US by Election Day. Come on rogue Trump interns - make it happen!
posted by inflatablekiwi at 9:12 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'd back him to go the whole hog and individually insult every enrolled voter in the US by Election Day. Come on rogue Trump interns - make it happen!

in alphabetical order
posted by murphy slaw at 9:29 PM on July 30, 2016 [6 favorites]

So tonight I'm trying to get some work done after a week of political procrastination, and C-SPAN is replaying stuff from the Democratic convention. (Which means I'm back to getting no work done. Thanks, ~~Obama~~ Hillary.)

Hillary Clinton's speech is on right now, and it makes me both sad and angry that such an accomplished, knowledgeable woman has to put up with such a miserable human being for an opponent. The fact that the polls aren't 100% in her favor is a travesty.

One of the themes that really came out of the convention this week was what a good listener she is, and how deeply she feels called to public service. If nothing else happens, I hope that this election season finally puts to rest the false narrative that Democrats hate their country. I mean, this is a woman who clearly loves this country - for what it can be as well as what it currently is - and she's running against a guy who has nothing but contempt for this country and most of the people in it.

I don't know. Maybe she's at such a disadvantage from decades of mud-slinging that she needed to go up against a human dumpster fire for people to take a second look at her character and record, and that will be a good thing. On the other hand, if there are enough bigoted, angry, apathetic people out there...I don't even want to think about it. I want to believe that we're better as a country than to let this opportunity slip through our hands. It's such a weird thing - it's like, I don't want to let her down when she has faith in our better nature.

In her speech, she said, "America is great because America is good." I hope we prove her right.
posted by Salieri at 9:29 PM on July 30, 2016 [25 favorites]

#TrumpSacrifices
posted by zakur at 9:30 PM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trigger warning for #TrumpSacrifices: pictures of dead endangered species with the asshole Trump sons that killed them.
posted by stolyarova at 9:32 PM on July 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

Trigger warning for ~~#TrumpSacrifices: pictures of dead endangered species with the asshole Trump sons that killed them~~ Twitter.
posted by zakur at 9:45 PM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

How can Trump lack the tiniest bit of self control? All he needed to do was not engage with the family of a dead soldier

Phenterine is a helluva drug.
posted by EatTheWeek at 9:45 PM on July 30, 2016 [5 favorites]

Salix, that baby on the left looks positively presidential! Trump and the right-side baby are losing their shit completely, but she's poised, sparkling, and extending her hand to her admirers like a damn Khaleesi. Got my eye on her for '40.
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 9:47 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

Looking through the Full Report from PPP

Sanders' favorability between Clinton & Trump supporters are mirror images. For Clinton supporters, it's 77/11, but Trump supporters are 17/71. This puts the lie to the notion that your average Trump voter would have happily gone for Sanders if he had been the nominee.

Trump supporters are about 3x as likely to have an unfavorable view of the GOP as Clinton supporters are to have an unfavorable view of the Dems (22% vs 7%)

2% of Clinton's supporters think she has ties to Lucifer (like Robert Johnson, maybe?)

The more conservative you are, the more likely you approve of Putin (!!!), but, the more extreme your views, liberal or conservative, the more likely you'd support a candidate who was friendly to Russia.
posted by GameDesignerBen at 9:47 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

The more conservative you are, the more likely you approve of Putin (!!!),
For old Commie Fighters, Putin is dream-come-true, a Post-Communist Strongman who's building an Anti-Communist Eastern Europe. (And if you tell them about his 16 years working for the old KGB, they'll call it a lie, just like everything you try to tell them about Saint Trump)
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:02 PM on July 30, 2016

...Stephanopoulos looking stunned as he double checks with Trump that employing people was a "sacrifice" on his part.

What is wrong with this man?

It makes perfect sense to me when I consider narcissism.

Inside Trump's brain, it looks like this:

1. TRUMP is the most important person in the world and the best at all things.
2. Everyone knows this and the people that claim otherwise are enemies of TRUMP.
3. The most important goal for TRUMP is to "win".

So, looking at it through that lens, imagine if you were the best in the world at all things and you had to allow some parts of your empire to be managed by LESSER BEINGS. Not only that, you had to spend some time thinking about those beings, and speaking to them, and giving them some of your hard-earned MONEY. Money is the same as winning, and the more you have, the better a person you are. So you're literally making yourself win a tiny bit less by employing them.

That's a sacrifice!

You'll notice that if you assume #1, 2, and 3, suddenly it makes sense to insult the families of fallen soldiers too.

Sadly, this is the kind of horrible man we are dealing with here.
posted by mmoncur at 10:12 PM on July 30, 2016 [7 favorites]

Can I Be Honest?
posted by R.F.Simpson at 10:13 PM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

Betteridge's law?
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:21 PM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

Can I Be Honest?

Huh. I had actually thought n+1 was pretty smart and thoughtful. Turns out they are staffed by gigantic babies with literally no understanding of the political process.
posted by dersins at 10:25 PM on July 30, 2016 [9 favorites]

Hairspray Trump
Hairspray Trump 2
posted by kirkaracha at 10:33 PM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

What gets me over and over is the blinkered belief that when *they* scream at people and wave signs, it's a glorious virtue, but when other people do it, it's "microaggressions". When they try to to attract the press's attention, it's noble, and if the press don't pay attention, they are "fickle and thoughtless". When the Clinton delegates do it by showing up early to get the best seats, it's oppression.

They get "parental scolding" because they are acting and apparently thinking like self-centered spoiled children.
posted by tavella at 10:36 PM on July 30, 2016 [22 favorites]

The line of the week, and maybe beyond that, belonged to the great Jesse Jackson, who said, with a glint, “the Bern must never grow cold.” Among all the speakers, he alone probably understood what Sanders and his supporters were feeling, and he gave them the truest form of solace: solidarity.

I bet if he thought really hard he could come up with another speaker who understood what Sanders was feeling.
posted by one_bean at 10:42 PM on July 30, 2016 [37 favorites]

When the Clinton delegates do it by showing up early to get the best seats, it's oppression.

Yeah, that moment was especially telling:

She nonetheless got to the arena an hour early, but her delegation seating area had already been filled with Clinton “honored guests” as a way of keeping the Sanders people out.

Sorry, but you are not oppressed, you got out-organized by actual grownups who know what the fuck they're doing. Of course the Clinton campaign made sure they had their delegates to the arena way more than an hour early. Did you think this was fucking debate club?
posted by dersins at 10:48 PM on July 30, 2016 [54 favorites]

I'm not saying I agree with the article, but this caustic air of superiority is . . . unsettling.
posted by R.F.Simpson at 10:49 PM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

Sad that you don't even know oppression when you see it.
posted by bongo_x at 10:49 PM on July 30, 2016

Maybe we're worried that these wannabe Naderoids are going to stick us with The Orange One and WW3?
posted by Yowser at 10:54 PM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

Dads get up early, clean the grill, mow the lawn, and cook some fancy burgers with Dijon and cheese because they love you.

Come on over. Sorry, that fence was there before I was, I've been so busy I haven't been able to tear it all down yet, I didn't want it to mess up the way the water runs when it's like flooding-raining, and I just want to make sure it's gonna work when the rain gets bad, but if we work together, I bet we can figure out a solution that the city council won't notice for long enough that as long as it works, it's cool, and maybe we can teach other people how to do it even better than we did, and then we can make that the way everyone builds things.
posted by rp at 10:54 PM on July 30, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm not saying I agree with the article, but this caustic air of superiority is . . . unsettling.

I'm guessing you agree with the article.
posted by one_bean at 10:55 PM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

Now I'm wondering how oppressive the line at the bar was.
posted by bongo_x at 10:55 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

#trumpsacrifices is quite fun. (although yes, has multiple pictures of trump children killing endangered species and posing proudly)

Some of my favorites:

#TrumpSacrifices Many many sacrifices, wonderful sacrifices and they were outstanding sacrifices, believe me, believe me.

When meeting people has to say names that aren't his own
#TrumpSacrifices

The haters say #Trump never sacrificied. So dishonest. He's sacrificed lots. Here's my list:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
posted by Cozybee at 10:56 PM on July 30, 2016

The Commission on Presidential Debates announced the schedule on September 23, 2015:

First presidential debate:
Monday, September 26, 2016
Wright State University, Dayton, OH

Vice presidential debate:
Tuesday, October 4, 2016
Longwood University, Farmville, VA

Second presidential debate:
Sunday, October 9, 2016
Washington University in St. Louis, St. Louis, MO

Third presidential debate:
Wednesday, October 19, 2016
University of Nevada, Las Vegas, Las Vegas, NV

posted by kirkaracha at 10:56 PM on July 30, 2016 [2 favorites]

Again, the sticker I want. TRUCK FUMP
posted by X4ster at 10:57 PM on July 30, 2016

The NFL released its 2016-17 schedule on April 15, 2016.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:59 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

One comment deleted. Hello, this is your regularly scheduled extremely weary and overworked periodic reminder that We've been around this exact track (debating over anti-Hillary diehards on the left) many times, at this point please stop this go-round and move on to anything else.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:00 PM on July 30, 2016 [24 favorites]

Thank all of you Mefites so much. You inform me, enlighten me and entertain me. I lack the vocabulary to fully express how much I appreciate your insights. Good night.
posted by X4ster at 11:03 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

Hairspray Trump
Hairspray Trump 2

You left off the most important part: by Pete from Shaun of the Dead and your very own future The Tick. Spooooon!

Sophisticated Trump is even better and doesn't have a making-fun-of-gays vibe
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:11 PM on July 30, 2016 [3 favorites]

“Trump’s smear of Ghazala Khan is despicable. And if you don’t agree, you’re despicable. ”— Bret Stephens (@StephensWSJ) July 31, 2016

posted by ob1quixote at 11:13 PM on July 30, 2016 [8 favorites]

At least some of the Presidential Debate info will be changing, as Wright State dropped out of hosting back during the RNC; some school in NY state (Hofstra, I think?) will host instead.
posted by TwoStride at 11:40 PM on July 30, 2016

"Undecideds" lean Democratic. If these voters embrace Clinton, she'd be at +8.

If the PPP poll is accurate, Kaine for VP looks like a mistake. Hillary didn't need to reach out any further to D-leaning voters who are pro-financial deregulation, pro-TPP and pro "right to work"/anti-union laws.

Meanwhile there were very few opportunities for pre-election actions that could build trust with the Sanders/Warren wing. Attempting to promote someone more liberal/progressive could've helped close the deal with the left and draw in more of its youthful energy. What does Kaine bring to the ticket again?
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 11:52 PM on July 30, 2016 [1 favorite]

maybe we could hold off on declaring kaine a total loss until, i dunno, more than a couple of post-convention polls come out?
posted by murphy slaw at 12:01 AM on July 31, 2016 [10 favorites]

Kaine brings to the ticket the only effect VP candidates have been shown to have: a couple of points in their home states. It's almost impossible for Trump to win if he can't take Virginia. And Kaine doesn't mean losing a senate seat to the Republicans, which is what most of the other sufficiently experienced candidates meant.

Not to mention, the BoBers were booing and heckling Warren at the convention. The idea that they would view her as 'closing the deal' as opposed to a backstabber seems unsupported.
posted by tavella at 12:02 AM on July 31, 2016 [49 favorites]

> "What does Kaine bring to the ticket again?"

Virginia.
posted by kyrademon at 12:02 AM on July 31, 2016 [25 favorites]

What does Kaine bring to the ticket again?

A white penis.

Giving the disaffected Republicans who "just don't like Hilary for some reason" an excuse in order to secure a landslide isn't condoning the misogyny it's just acknowledging it.
posted by fullerine at 12:03 AM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

Do you think anyone on his staff currently actually gives a shit about him actually winning?

Hope Hicks? I mean, it's in her name. But she's also a TrumpOrg retainer, not a campaign professional.
posted by holgate at 12:04 AM on July 31, 2016

demagogue redux (What We Talk About When We Talk About ‘Demagogues’ - The Atlantic)
posted by gkr at 12:21 AM on July 31, 2016

> What does Kaine bring to the ticket again?

The Onion editors.
posted by mrzarquon at 12:28 AM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's no coincidence that Demagoguin' is the big bad in that new Strange Things show everybody's watching
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:28 AM on July 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

regarding Kaine-- I've watched all of their campaign stops from yesterday and today, and while he's still getting used to everything and developing his stump speech, I think he's going to be a very effective campaigner. He's basically telling people, "gosh, I can't believe I'm on the same bus as Hillary and Bill!" and then serving as character witness for them. So, his help with her approval ratings might be more important than the effect of any particular positions. If that was one of the main factors in the VP pick, then it's just a matter of chemistry/personality.
posted by acidic at 12:37 AM on July 31, 2016 [7 favorites]

oh, interesting. I must pay more attention because I have had some Strange Things being watched around me but had not noted demagoguery.

thanks, prize bull octorok
posted by gkr at 12:47 AM on July 31, 2016

speaking of strange things!

The strange and wonderful things people searched for during the Republican and Democratic conventions (WP)
posted by gkr at 12:54 AM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

oh, interesting. I must pay more attention because I have had some Strange Things being watched around me but had not noted demagoguery.

He makea the pun; Demogorgon is the big monster from the D&D game in the first episode. At which the level 18 wizard casts fireball and I am still sore about that. Fireball.
posted by Justinian at 12:55 AM on July 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

soren_lorensen: "Anyone who does actually have any fucks would have been felled by ulcers months ago. The only people left are those who are okay with letting him do whatever the hell he wants."

If you are a professional campaign worker (advisor/ manager/ organiser/ whatever) how does a candidate being so out of control look on your CV? Are you judged poorly for taking the job in the first place or not bailing when the blatant racism comes out? Or are you given points for doing the best you can and sticking with it? Do professionals cross the aisle very often or are they pretty much always staunch party members?

kirkaracha: "The NFL released its 2016-17 schedule on April 15, 2016."

While I get the point that the NFL closed their schedule after the debate schedule had been set anyone who cares about conflicting with the NFL (which don't get me wrong the debate organizers should not care about at all) would know the NFL will have some game on the Sunday and Monday nights in the fall even if they don't know what specific games are going to be played. I'm Canadian and a sport atheist and even I know that (because of Futurama but still). There is no chance American event organizers won't know the pattern.
posted by Mitheral at 2:20 AM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

Football is played Thursday, Sunday, Monday. Friday and Saturday being weekend nights would get the same complaint about trying to hide it, plus Saturday you'd have major college football. That leaves Tuesday and Wednesday. And Yom Kippur takes out Tues and Weds the 11th and 12th. 2012 also had two debates opposite games with no issues and high ratings.
posted by chris24 at 2:58 AM on July 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

Regarding what Kaine brings, Trump is also doing terrible with Catholics. So if Kaine maintains or accelerates that - with his personal, though not political, abortion beliefs perhaps giving cover to some voters - he maybe adds value there as well.
posted by chris24 at 3:07 AM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

If the PPP poll is accurate, Kaine for VP looks like a mistake. Hillary didn't need to reach out any further to D-leaning voters who are pro-financial deregulation, pro-TPP and pro "right to work"/anti-union laws.

Not sure it's that simple. The PPP poll is national, but the Electoral College means that national numbers are illustrative, not a promise. If Kaine makes it easier for conservative women in small town Pennsylvania or Ohio to pull the lever for Clinton, then that's the whole election right there.

Of course VP picks don't really matter like that either way, historically.
posted by GameDesignerBen at 4:39 AM on July 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

So far, Tim Kaine also seems like he's useful for attacking Donald Trump while being kind of untouchable himself. Clinton has a lot of baggage, real or imagined ("Corrupt? Dishonest? We can call you that right back!") but Kaine insulting Trump is like Mr. Rogers or your favorite uncle insulting him.

And he serves the "White guy who can make latent misogynists feel better about voting for a woman" role too, which I think is sadly important this time.
posted by mmoncur at 4:50 AM on July 31, 2016 [9 favorites]

Also it seems like part and parcel of the effort to reclaim all the symbology the Republicans have historically insisted are theirs alone - "support the troops" patriotism, overt Christianity, etc. In any other national election a candidate like Kaine would be attacked for supposedly betraying his faith, but the Trump campaign is the political equivalent of an empty net in hockey. Why not score every goal you can?

(Plus Kaine expressed more positions in his career than the ones you personally don't like)
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 4:58 AM on July 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

If you are a professional campaign worker (advisor/ manager/ organiser/ whatever) how does a candidate being so out of control look on your CV?

Does he have many professionals on staff?
And people like Manafort can just go back to working for dictators when this is all over.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:01 AM on July 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

Meanwhile there were very few opportunities for pre-election actions that could build trust with the Sanders/Warren wing. Attempting to promote someone more liberal/progressive could've helped close the deal with the left and draw in more of its youthful energy.

I expect that for the few dead-enders who are left, rejection of Clinton is axiomatic. They spent the convention booing Sanders and Warren and I don't see any reason why they wouldn't reject Jill Stein or Che Guevara as gutless sellouts if they ran with Clinton.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:16 AM on July 31, 2016 [22 favorites]

Is it just me, or does the Trump Cycle seem to go something like this:

Day One --

1. Trump says something horrible. No, seriously, worse than you could possibly imagine. As a hypothetical, lets' say this one is, "But you've got to hand it to the Chinese -- their babies are delicious. Really, delicious babies, believe me."

2. Later that night, Trump doubles down on it with a tweet. "Chinese baby heaarts, you've got to try them. Grate, grate food."

Day Two --

3. One member of the Trump camp denies it ever happened. "What he actually said was that Chinese babies are *delicate*. I think we can agree that all babies are delicate, can't we?"

4. Another member of the Trump camp defends it. "I would think the Chinese would be complimented to know how tasty Donald Trump considers their babies."

Day Three, if it has not yet already blown over --

5. A prominent conservative attempts to distance himself without actually repudiating the candidate. "Speaker Ryan is already on record as saying that Chinese babies are not food."

6. Someone obviously not Trump writes something under Trump's name which is not an apology. "I have nothing but boundless respect for the Chinese people."

Day Four --

7. Trump says something horrible. No, seriously, worse than you could possibly imagine.
posted by kyrademon at 5:42 AM on July 31, 2016 [87 favorites]

If you look at Chris Christie, he was just standing there. He had nothing to say. Maybe he wasn't allowed to:
posted by Mooski at 5:50 AM on July 31, 2016 [42 favorites]

Somewhere around day 4, the media interviews Trump voters. "Chinese babies are just going to grow up and take our jobs! At least Trump is DOING SOMETHING! Crooked Hillary probably eats white American babies!"
posted by AFABulous at 5:50 AM on July 31, 2016 [11 favorites]

Somewhere around day 4, the media interviews Trump voters. "Chinese babies are just going to grow up and take our jobs! At least Trump is DOING SOMETHING! Crooked Hillary probably eats white American babies!"

"Have we even see Hillary eat a white American baby? She thinks she's too good to eat our best babies!"

/derail
posted by Servo5678 at 5:53 AM on July 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

So, yeah. A conservative client of mine was crowing about Nate Silver's latest post and making a snide comment about how "Grannie needed to throw Jill Stein under the bus" and how "Democrats were panicking." Uh, yeah. (This guy likes to troll.) Thoughts, MeFites?
posted by suburbanbeatnik at 5:57 AM on July 31, 2016

As free-market dogmatics, conservatives should look to the market to assess their candidate's chances, especially the betting markets. They show low odds for Trump right now.
posted by cell divide at 5:59 AM on July 31, 2016

Having been in a room with 6000 other Democrats yesterday, I can't really say panic was the dominant emotion.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:00 AM on July 31, 2016 [9 favorites]

Though honestly if you're not panicking on a personal level even a little about a possible Trump presidency, you're just as much of an anti-social asshole as he is.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:02 AM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Soren, that seems kind of harsh. I've been donating to HRC's campaign and talking up her chances as much as I can (including to a receptive friend in PA just this morning). Trump becoming the president is so awful I can't even imagine it.
posted by suburbanbeatnik at 6:07 AM on July 31, 2016

Though honestly if you're not panicking on a personal level even a little about a possible Trump presidency, you're just as much of an anti-social asshole as he is.

I'm still in a subdued freak-out that he's actually the 2016 GOP candidate, which is bad enough even without considering his possible presidency.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:12 AM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

Thoughts, MeFites?

Fire your client? I don't know if I've ever felt better in my life than when I told an asshole client I didn't want to work with them anymore.
posted by chris24 at 6:14 AM on July 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

So, yeah. A conservative client of mine was crowing about Nate Silver's latest post and making a snide comment about how "Grannie needed to throw Jill Stein under the bus" and how "Democrats were panicking." Uh, yeah. (This guy likes to troll.) Thoughts, MeFites?

Current forecast is 56.8% for Hillary. What's he crowing about?
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:16 AM on July 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm pretty confident that Trump hasn't even begun to truly implode yet. The statements about the Khan family are just the start.
posted by octothorpe at 6:17 AM on July 31, 2016 [15 favorites]

I'm pretty confident that Trump hasn't even begun to truly implode yet

The debates are a poison pill for Trump -- either he goes and embarasses himself, or he refuses to debate and embarasses himself.

Or best/worst of both worlds, he agrees to multiple debates, flubs the first one, and then backs out of the rest.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:21 AM on July 31, 2016 [7 favorites]

A conservative client of mine was crowing about Nate Silver's latest post

So if you need this client, smile politely and say something noncommittal and come here to vicariously scream at him and slap him with a metaphorical trout.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:21 AM on July 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

ROU_Xenophobe, that is definitely the plan
posted by suburbanbeatnik at 6:29 AM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

NYTImes: The Path to Prosperity Is Blue
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:39 AM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

Please please stop with the baby stuff - it's just a really disturbing image I don't want to imagine.

why do you love Trump
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:43 AM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump gets briefly stuck in an elevator.

"This is why our country doesn't work," Trump said as he slammed the Colorado Springs fire marshal during the rally, moments after the department's firefighters rescued him. The paper reported that Trump said the fire marshal "didn't know what he was doing and 'was probably a Democrat.' "

Best comments so far:

I like people that weren't trapped in elevators

Yeah, only losers get trapped in elevators. It has never happened to me. Maybe Trump doesn't know how to work an elevator, or maybe he made it stop to trap the people inside it with him. You tell me.
posted by Talez at 6:50 AM on July 31, 2016 [21 favorites]

- Why it's going to be a close election. -

"This election is never likely to turn out to be the sort of landslide for Clinton that some expected a year or 6 months ago because Trump voters just hate Clinton too much for that to ever happen. For instance on this poll we find that 74% of Trump voters think Clinton should be in prison, to only 12% who disagree. By a 66/22 margin they say Clinton is a bigger threat to the United States than Russia. And 33% think Clinton even has ties to Lucifer, to 36% who say they don't think so, and 31% who are unsure either way. Against that set of findings it's simply not very likely that many Trump voters will be moving into the Clinton column and that's why although she's certainly the favorite the chances of her winning a double digit victory are pretty minimal."

*my bold
posted by chris24 at 6:55 AM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

The fire marshall put a stop to people getting into the Clinton event yesterday, shutting out hundreds, if not thousands. Mike Doyle in his warm up speech gave a shout out to those of us in overflow and those who couldn't get in. We cheered. Nothing more was said about it and people in line and in overflow were exceptionally good natured given that we'd all waited for literally hours (I listened to all of Purple Rain and all of Stop Making Sense and a bunch of podcasts while in line) to get in. The contrast between these two campaigns is so stark, I don't understand how this is a close race.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:57 AM on July 31, 2016 [16 favorites]

Trump's Twitter feed is on the warpath against the Khans this morning.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:57 AM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

"When I'm elected, it's going to stop. We will have walls around all these elevators. Walls with ladders so people can go up. No longer are people going to be trapped by these things."
posted by pyramid termite at 6:58 AM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump's Twitter feed is on the warpath against the Khans this morning.

I knew he wouldn't be able to help himself. And it's only going to get worse, because the speech wasn't that much of a direct attack. But Khan on Meet the Press just said Trump has a black soul. Donald isn't going to be able to stop. Could this be the straw if it keeps escalating?
posted by chris24 at 7:07 AM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

It will be interesting to see if something of national import happens, but Trump continues to focus on personal slights from Mr & Mrs Khan.
posted by GameDesignerBen at 7:10 AM on July 31, 2016

Meanwhile, Hillary's Twitter folks had the good sense to re-tweet John Kasich.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:11 AM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

The Washington Post just publish an opinion piece by Ghazala Khan in response to Trump.

Ghazala Khan: Trump criticized my silence. He knows nothing about true sacrifice.

posted by airish at 7:12 AM on July 31, 2016 [24 favorites]

I do hope the Khans stay safe, though. Trump yelling RADICAL ISLAMICIST TERRORISTS every time he mentions their name could be taken as a turbulent priest request by the frothers.
posted by Devonian at 7:16 AM on July 31, 2016 [15 favorites]

We're at the "punch yourself in the arm to forget about the pain in your knee" stage of the campaign, where Trump's continued attacks on the Khans is covering up the fact that this morning he first stated that if he were President, Russia wouldn't consider invading Ukraine. When it was pointed out that they had already done so, he parroted the Russian line on Crimea, claiming that most Crimeans wanted to be Russian anyway, so what's the big deal.

Thank god I'm over draft eligible age. There will be a major global conflict if he is elected.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 7:22 AM on July 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

Thoughts, MeFites?

However much you've ever worked on a campaign before, double it this year. Walk up and down your street. Anybody who is a Hillary supporter, make for damn sure that they vote this year. That's about it.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 7:24 AM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

> "We're at the 'punch yourself in the arm to forget about the pain in your knee' stage of the campaign ..."

It is really, really hard for me to believe that "insult the grieving parents of a war hero" plays better than ... anything. At all.
posted by kyrademon at 7:27 AM on July 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

It is really, really hard for me to believe that "insult the grieving parents of a war hero" plays better than ... anything. At all.

I guess my point is that his Russian comments would be Drudge-siren level "this man is crazy and dangerous" headline-worthy, if it weren't for the fact that he cannot help himself from attacking the family of a war hero.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 7:29 AM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

It is really, really hard for me to believe that "insult the grieving parents of a war hero" plays better than ... anything. At all.

At least some people will see this as Trump vs. Muslim, Trump wins.
posted by argybarg at 7:38 AM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump's surrogate said on MSNBC this morning that Khan put himself out there by giving a speech at the DNC and so he is fair game for Trump to criticize and defend himself against. They're doubling down on this madness.
posted by gatorae at 7:39 AM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

Thank god I'm over draft eligible age. There will be a major global conflict if he is elected.

My son is 22. I guess I'd better sign up to phone bank for HRC.
posted by puddledork at 7:40 AM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

Not American, but I've noticed the same with many others here: many are saying that they didn't realize how much of their opinion of Hillary has been created by right-wing propaganda. Even if one is left-leaning.
I definitely have a completely different image of her now, and I even read one of her auto-biographies last winter.

So maybe it's worth it to engage with people - ask them why they think Hillary is evil, where did they get that information, and are those sources reliable? Ask them to think if some of the hate might be sexist. I know there are some conservative, pearl-clutching grannies out there who would give that a second thought (though they might do it in private). I know because my gran did that in a very similar situation.

Obviously, she is establishment and elite. You can't take that out of her. But claiming that in itself is damning is absurd, when you are about to elect the president of the USA. Anyone who is a serious contender is to some extent establishment and elite, and that includes Bernie Sanders. And Donald Trump.

I don't like political families, but they exist everywhere, and no-one seems to hold it against Robert Kennedy that he was the brother of John.

Lots of the people who claim to hate Hillary Clinton haven't been watching the Democratic convention, and they haven't yet noticed the crazy of Trump. Last night on TV I saw a couple being interviewed about Trump, and while the husband was a typical ignorant and racist Trump-voter, I felt the wife can and will move during these months, if she gets just a little more information.
posted by mumimor at 7:46 AM on July 31, 2016 [12 favorites]

His tweets are definitely making it Trump vs. Muslims.

Captain Khan, killed 12 years ago, was a hero, but this is about RADICAL ISLAMIC TERROR and the weakness of our "leaders" to eradicate it!
posted by AFABulous at 7:47 AM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

where did they get that information, and are those sources reliable?

Radical conservative voters believe that all mainstream media has a liberal bias (except Fox News). It really doesn't matter how many sources you throw at them.
posted by AFABulous at 7:49 AM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

The debates are a poison pill for Trump -- either he goes and embarasses himself, or he refuses to debate and embarasses himself.

Ugh, didn't you watch the primary debates?

The most likely scenario is this:
He goes into the debates with really, really low expectations, manages not to physically attack the other candidate or the moderators, all the while gettting in a witty jab or two (we know he thinks quick on his feet), and all the media declares that he "outdid expectations" or even won the debates.

He'll do that while raising his finger and his voice and saying some really nasty things to Clinton's face and his poll numbers will rise another three percent. Meanwhile Clinton will say something stupid such as "it's time to put a woman in charge" and her poll numbers will drop three percent.
posted by sour cream at 7:52 AM on July 31, 2016 [13 favorites]

The Party Platform Democrats Won't Stand On

To get a sense of how much the Democratic Party platform affects actual policy, let's take a look at some of the more progressive planks from the 2008 platform passed by the convention that nominated Barack Obama and see how they have fared under the Obama administration.
...
Yet now, the Democrats, led by Bernie Sanders, are asking us to vote for Hillary Clinton because she'll make a "wonderful president," in Sanders' words -- and if you have any doubts, just look at "the most progressive platform in the history of the Democratic Party" she agreed to.

We've heard that one before.

posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 8:05 AM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

The Party Platform Democrats Won't Stand On

You know who definitely won't do anything on that platform? Trump.
posted by chris24 at 8:08 AM on July 31, 2016 [47 favorites]

Salon: The moral case for Hillary Clinton: Even if you might dislike her, this isn’t the year to back a third-party candidate Presidential elections aren’t just about principles; they’re about human lives.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:08 AM on July 31, 2016 [13 favorites]

... Because we've had zero progress under Obama, right?
posted by stolyarova at 8:09 AM on July 31, 2016 [27 favorites]

Hillary Clinton will reset Syria policy against 'murderous' Assad regime

Hillary Clinton will order a "full review" of the United States' strategy on Syria as a "first key task" of her presidency, resetting the policy to emphasise the "murderous" nature of the Assad regime, foreign policy adviser with her campaign has said.

Jeremy Bash, who served as chief of staff for the Pentagon and the Central Intelligence Agency, said Mrs Clinton would both escalate the fight against the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, and work to get Bashar al-Assad, the Syrian president, "out of there".

posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 8:09 AM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

The Party Platform Democrats Won't Stand On

We've heard that one before.

Why do people write this shit knowing the makeup of the four congresses during the Barack Obama administration?

We had six months of Democratic hegemony and it was all spent on the ACA and even then we had blue dogs constraining it. I'm really not sure what they expected Democrats to do the rest of the time with the House operating in lockstep and slapping down anything with a D on the co-sponsor.
posted by Talez at 8:09 AM on July 31, 2016 [41 favorites]

Simple Talez, it fits their narrative. Even on he left, facts are starting* to not matter.

*starting is arguable
posted by JakeEXTREME at 8:13 AM on July 31, 2016 [13 favorites]

Yes, but - the Democrat planners saw those primaries too. They know what they're dealing with. Why would HRC 'say something stupid'?

They know that Trump will not and cannot answer any substantive questions, and will do- - as Countess Elena astutely observed upthread - the Gish Gallop when it's his turn to speak. There's no point in treating it like a turn-by-turn debate: you decide who the audience is you need to reach, and use techniques like grouping to wrap up the gallop as concisely as possible before negating it succinctly and then getting your points out. You pick one thing to pivot on (and Trump will provide many), get the jab in and then move on to be positive - so on the economy, point out Trump's very flaky finances and how can you trust a man to set fiscal policy when he's the only candidate for 40 years to hide his tax returns from the voters? Economists say his plans would be disasterfor the working family, but we have a great plan, the best, that will make your life so much better. You don't have to trust us - it's all out there. Check it yourself.

Clinton can do that. The hard part will be finding someone who can go the full Trump in rehersal; I think they're going to need a top-flight improv actor or stand-up.
posted by Devonian at 8:18 AM on July 31, 2016 [7 favorites]

Russia Expert Stephen Cohen on CNN

Cohen says the media at large is doing a huge disservice to the American people by ignoring the substance of Trump's arguments about NATO and Russia, and buying the Clinton campaign's simplistic smear that Trump is a Russian "Manchurian candidate."

"That reckless branding of Trump as a Russian agent, most of it is coming from the Clinton campaign," Cohen said. "And they really need to stop."

"We're approaching a Cuban Missile Crisis level nuclear confrontation with Russia," he explained. "And there is absolutely no discussion, no debate, about this in the American media."

posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 8:19 AM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

Clinton can do that. The hard part will be finding someone who can go the full Trump in rehersal; I think they're going to need a top-flight improv actor or stand-up.

Wasn't that Tim Kaine's job?
posted by Talez at 8:19 AM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm kind of curious as to what the point of divebombing the thread with editorials and a brief quote is NPB. Are these supposed to be talking points for others to talk about? I thought we tried to discourage linkfilter.
posted by vuron at 8:23 AM on July 31, 2016 [24 favorites]

vuron 4 mefi prez!
posted by Talez at 8:24 AM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump won't do the Gish Gallop, he'll do the Trump Dump, where he says a whole series of statements so appallingly stupid the mind cannot process them and so cannot respond. He'll say three mutually contradictory things as loudly as possible and with testosterone in his throat.

I mad this point a few days ago, but Trump is a class abuser, of the kind that destroys families by making mutually sane responses impossible. Anyone with experience with a deeply crazy, scary family member will know how much damage is done simply by inducing the sane family members to argue with the abuser in their heads.

No one ever wins an argument with an abuser of that sort -- he has to kicked out immediately, no contact, restraining order. But we can't do that until November, and the debate moderators can't just kick him off the stage.
posted by argybarg at 8:26 AM on July 31, 2016 [8 favorites]

joyce carol oates just compared trump to slenderman
so that happened.
this fuckin year, man
posted by murphy slaw at 8:32 AM on July 31, 2016 [10 favorites]

>: "Trump said as he slammed the Colorado Springs fire marshal during the rally, moments after the department's firefighters rescued him. The paper reported that Trump said the fire marshal "didn't know what he was doing and 'was probably a Democrat.' ""

I just love this quote; every time I see it I think "Well if he wasn't before he probably is now. Or at least he will be voting for the Democratic candidate." This rant basically insulted the professionalism of Fire Marshalls everywhere and professionals hate that. Fire fighters tend to be passionate about this sort of safety thing and Trump just blew them off at best.

Contradicting things people know with every fiber of their being is a uniquely dangerous way of getting people to rethink support of your candidacy. When you say something stupid like "Mexico will pay for our wall", well practically no one has the personal stake to point out how looney that is. But if you say something that specifically calls out something like maximum occupancy then the people who set and enforce that limit are going to know you are speaking out of your ass and that is a sizable group of voters. To then insult those people? Yep, that's how you lose supporters. Even if they don't flip it keeps them at home because they don't want to vote for the asshole.
posted by Mitheral at 8:34 AM on July 31, 2016 [7 favorites]

Ah, yes, "Russia Expert" Stephen Cohen:

[A]s the hostilities in eastern Ukraine have turned to the tragedy of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17, Cohen is at it again—this time, with a long article in the current issue of The Nation indicting “Kiev’s atrocities” in eastern Ukraine and America’s collusion therein. The timing is rather unfortunate for Cohen and The Nation, since the piece is also unabashedly sympathetic to the Russian-backed militants who appear responsible for the murder of 298 innocent civilians.
[...]
It is embarrassing to see Cohen—once a serious scholar whose work was praised by the likes of British historian Robert Conquest—sink to the level of repeating Russian misinformation; it is no less of an embarrassment that The Nation would print something so shoddy. One likely element of truth in Cohen’s account is that Putin is indeed feeling the pressure of public sentiment in favor of saving Ukraine’s ethnic Russians from the “fascist junta”—not because of actual Kiev atrocities, but because the Kremlin has wound up a propaganda machine it cannot stop. By recycling this propaganda and giving it the imprimatur of a respectable American magazine, Cohen and The Nation are not doing Russia, or anyone, any favors.

Calling him a "Russia Expert" is like calling David Duke "Jim Crow Expert" or Milo Yiannopolous "Harassment Expert." This latest column is as incoherent as his previous ones.
posted by zombieflanders at 8:34 AM on July 31, 2016 [21 favorites]

The Party Platform Democrats Won't Stand On

Eh. You know, it's easy to look at stuff like this and wring your hands about it but honestly if you particularly care what Socialist Worker has to say you were never ever going to vote for any Democrat and were always just going to keep on being the fringe.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:35 AM on July 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

joyce carol oates just compared trump to slenderman

What the hell is happening there?
posted by bongo_x at 8:36 AM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

Thoughts, MeFites?

Dude sounds like an asshole.
posted by Cookiebastard at 8:39 AM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

Cohen's premise is that Trump is making a circuitous but coherent proposal for detente with Russia, a conclusion he arrives at by parsing The Donald's words like an evangelical Christian looking for Rapture prophecies in the Bible. The only thing more disappointing than somebody with a college degree doing that in public, is Glenn Greenwald taking him seriously.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:41 AM on July 31, 2016 [24 favorites]

Why do people write this shit knowing the makeup of the four congresses during the Barack Obama administration?

Two points - on the politics, I heard so little at the Dem Convention about Republican obstructionism. Ds decided to basically own the economy and talk instead about how hard change is and how slow, incremental progress takes effort and compromise. It may have been a mistake not to try to channel some of the anger about economic hardship towards the Republican Party and their plan to wreck the economy for electoral gain.

Second, and I know it's controversial, but I think progressives/liberals should consider what centrist Democratic leadership, including by Obama and Clinton, has contributed to the rise of American right wing populism. The truthout.org article is correct that Obama did not prioritize the 2008 D party platform's commitment to a public option or to poverty reduction, compared to, say, deficit reduction. The D's contribution is certainly smaller than the GOP's, but pushing back against centrism in the D leadership should be the goal of any progressive who's serious about combatting American right wing authoritarianism in the long term. I believe that includes pushing back against the promotion of someone as economically conservative as Tim Kaine.
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 8:43 AM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

Why is pragmatism such a dirty concept for the political extremes anyway?
posted by Talez at 8:45 AM on July 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

Calling him a "Russia Expert" is like calling David Duke "Jim Crow Expert" or Milo Yiannopolous "Harassment Expert."

Wut.

This guy has devoted his life to studying Russia. He's a professor at Princeton and NYU on the subject. What Ivy League professorship does Yiannopolous hold?

And, if I may say so, stooping to dismissing him as a Putin propagandist -- seriously, the article you linked to is entitled "Putin’s Pal" -- is participating in the distasteful neo-McCarthyite smears that Cohen was lamenting the Clinton campaign keeps propagating. It's not a good look.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 8:49 AM on July 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

because the pragmatics aren't getting enough done for this time and place?
posted by pyramid termite at 8:49 AM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

And, if I may say so, stooping to dismissing him as a Putin propagandist -- seriously, the article you linked to is entitled "Putin’s Pal" -- is participating in the distasteful neo-McCarthyite smears that Cohen was lamenting the Clinton campaign keeps propagating. It's not a good look.

And of course continuing to attack the Democratic campaign when we are fighting against an opponent who is literally attacking Muslims because of their religion is a particularly good look.
posted by peacheater at 8:51 AM on July 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

Why is pragmatism such a dirty concept for the political extremes anyway?

Probably because it's constantly invoked as an all-purpose excuse for hosing voters, especially on the left.
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 8:52 AM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

Cohen's premise is that Trump is making a circuitous but coherent proposal for detente with Russia, a conclusion he arrives at by parsing The Donald's words like an evangelical Christian looking for Rapture prophecies in the Bible.

Hey now. You can construct a reasonable opinion on the Rapture from the Bible because, well, the Bible is reasonably coherent. I believe the metaphor you're looking for is "like some Alex Jones listener who thinks they can apply the Bible Code to Webster's Dictionary expecting to find who did 9/11."
posted by dw at 8:53 AM on July 31, 2016

Yeah, but the reasonable opinion you can draw is "the Bible doesn't mention the Rapture." It's entirely invented by people who wanted to find it -- Not unlike the Alex Jones Bible code.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:55 AM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

On Trumps stances on Russian politics, it just seems to me that he's making very clear suggestions. There really isn't much room to debate those stances without taking a side. Leave NATO, yes or no? Support Ukraine, yes or no? Crimean independence, yes or no?

If your stance is we have to look at the situation then it isn't really out of place to have the opposite opinion of Trump. Regardless of how anyone feels though, his statements exclusively are favorable to Russia.

Maybe if Cohen was suggesting that the discussion needs to be deeper then I could understand but it comes across more as "Trump's right guys, why can't you see it!?"
posted by JakeEXTREME at 8:59 AM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump later said of Russia, "they're not going to go into Ukraine," which....yeah. Part for the course at this point.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:01 AM on July 31, 2016

Cohen is blinded by the debate he would like to have - he, not Trump, wants to have a serious conversation about NATO's role and relationship to Russia. He wants to have this conversation so badly that he is willing to find evidence of a policy in Trump's incoherent mess.

Cohen is also making the claim that the majority of the Trump-as-Russian-agent stuff is coming from the Clinton campaign. I'd like to see him back that up. So far I've seen strong criticism of Trump's NATO position from the campaign, and lots of surrogates talking about (1) Trump being too pro-Russia and (2) Russia trying to influence a US election through selective hacking and leaking. That does not equate to the Clinton campaign calling Trump a Russian agent.

He also dramatically underplays the evidence that the Russians are behind the hack - he treats that like a conspiracy theory, while I think the evidence is fairly close to air-tight.
posted by Chanther at 9:03 AM on July 31, 2016 [30 favorites]

The most likely scenario is this:
He goes into the debates with really, really low expectations, manages not to physically attack the other candidate or the moderators, all the while gettting in a witty jab or two (we know he thinks quick on his feet), and all the media declares that he "outdid expectations" or even won the debates.

I think the worm has turned on this one. The primary debates were completely different, given party constraints. HRC can just ridicule him if he won't engage on substance. And if he does, it'll be incoherent.

He'll do that while raising his finger and his voice and saying some really nasty things to Clinton's face and his poll numbers will rise another three percent.

This only appeals to certain segment of even the GOP's voters. They're already voting Trump.

Meanwhile Clinton will say something stupid such as "it's time to put a woman in charge" and her poll numbers will drop three percent.

Not everyone is predisposed to think that's stupid. Like, at least about 50% of the country.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:05 AM on July 31, 2016 [13 favorites]

Probably because it's constantly invoked as an all-purpose excuse for hosing voters, especially on the left.

How does not doing the pragmatic thing here (voting for Clinton) help the left? If Clinton doesn't get elected and Trump becomes President, do you think there will be more or less support for left-wing policies? Four years from now, are we more or less likely to have left-wing proposals become sellable to the population? After four years of Bush, when Nader spoiled the 2000 election, did the country suddenly realize the error of its ways and elect left-wing politicians?

I am of the left. I consider myself committed to left-wing principles. I would love a single-payer option. I consider the fact that so many people live in poverty in this, the richest nation in the world, honestly insane. But a certain segment of the left seems to have left the reality-based community and it is honestly really hard to see. On the one hand you have a woman who has consistently fought for the rights of women and children, backed a single payer option when it was political suicide to do so, nearly doubled the minimum wage when she was Senator of New York and taken three decades of crap from the right along the way. On the other hand we have a thin-skinned buffoon who doesn't give a damn about anyone but himself. If you don't want Trump to become President, why are you helping him? Even if you are not in a battleground state, every time you post on here or on Facebook with these constant attacks on Clinton, you are convincing other voters, who are in battleground states, that there is a legitimate reason not to vote for Clinton, thereby increasing the chances that Trump will become President. There are only two options in this election, and one of them is going to become President of the United States.
posted by peacheater at 9:06 AM on July 31, 2016 [70 favorites]

Not everyone is predisposed to think that's stupid. Like, at least about 50% of the country.

I wish that were true, but internalized sexism is unfortunately a thing.
posted by peacheater at 9:07 AM on July 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

The only thing more disappointing than somebody with a college degree doing that in public, is Glenn Greenwald taking him seriously.

It doesn't surprise me even slightly. Since the beginning of this election cycle, Greenwald has been not just willing but downright eager to amplify almost any voice that is critical of Clinton and/or her campaign.

He's probably thrilled to have this opportunity with Cohen, since even Greenwald's most ardently blinkered fans might look askance at him if he seemed to be agreeing with Trump's positions.

This way, he can just point to smart college professor guy and just kind of ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ .
posted by dersins at 9:12 AM on July 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

"We're approaching a Cuban Missile Crisis level nuclear confrontation with Russia," he explained. "And there is absolutely no discussion, no debate, about this in the American media."

That's because it isn't true. Russia is not the USSR, and there is no nuclear crisis.

We're hearing this because it's time to modernize the missile fleet.

Which we probably do need to spend serious money on, but there's no need for Strangelove level scare tactics.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:12 AM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

The contrast between these two campaigns is so stark, I don't understand how this is a close race.

Whenever you find yourself asking this, the answer is always "Lots and lots of anglos hold appallingly racist attitudes."
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:18 AM on July 31, 2016 [16 favorites]

A lot of people really seem to want to make excuses for Trump, and find things to criticize about Clinton. If you think yourself to be on the left and find you criticize Clinton more than Trump you might want to think about that. This should not be a close race, this should not even be a discussion. The fact that it is makes me think something is wrong with the world. I have long thought that we were near a turning point without really having a concrete reason to think that, but here it is.

I'm not 20 years old, I don't have kids. I will work for the Clinton campaign and do everything I can, but if enough people want to argue themselves into ruin in this country then so be it. I can find somewhere to spend the rest of my days.

Everyone should realize that this might be a moment in history that you'll have to account for. I won't have to lie about what I did and who I supported.
posted by bongo_x at 9:19 AM on July 31, 2016 [56 favorites]

If Trump wins, racism will be a part. Mostly, though, I think it would be out of a kind of collective self-destructive phenomenon, a temper tantrum and urge for morbid entertainment. That + the almost primal drive to follow the Strong Man could be enough.
posted by argybarg at 9:29 AM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

There is a valid argument to be made that NATO needs to be subject to a reevaluating process.

However shaking down the Baltic republics for protection money like a mafia don is not a solid process.

With respect, this plays into Trump's tiny little hands. Someone could dismiss your second sentence, because the first one lends his idiotic words credence.

Phrasing is going to play a large part in how we deal with this election - you'll have to think about how ANYTHING you say can be interpreted to support a racist, sexist, bigoted point of view, even when you think you're supporting progressive ideas.

I say this as someone who has had to watch his words very closely with an outspoken Republican who is waffling on whether or not Trump represents a Bad Thing.
posted by Mooski at 9:32 AM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

If I'm getting the timeline correct, Trump insulted the fire marshal after the fire department rescued him from the elevator. Sad!
posted by kirkaracha at 9:33 AM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

How does not doing the pragmatic thing here (voting for Clinton) help the left?

I'm undecided myself, like millions of voters who are being dismissed on the Blue as "a few dead enders". For non-swing state voters like me, going Green might signal to the D Party that they should move left if they want my vote in future. You mentioned only Hillary's positive record, which is important and highlighted here often. But I would be balancing out that record with her Iraq War vote, pursuing a world-wide fracking initiative and promoting for-profit rip-off colleges as SoS, her bankruptcy bill votes, etc. Her record is overall mixed.

Clinton's latest move was to promote to VP -in 2016- a pro-Wall Street deregulator. All this talk of Kaine as Mr. Rogers is glossing over the history of D centrists helping wreck the world economy by deregulating the financial sector in the late 90s, where populist anger over the economy is currently fueling right wing authoritarianism.

I believe progressives and liberals who are serious about curbing American right wing authoritarianism in the long term should plan to push back against overly conservative D leadership. What's your plan?
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 9:34 AM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

[Mark] Cuban called out Donald Trump, saying, "Leadership is not yelling and screaming and intimidating. You know what we call a person like that in Pittsburgh? A jagoff," Cuban continued. "Is there any bigger jagoff in the world than Donald Trump?"

posted by kirkaracha at 9:38 AM on July 31, 2016 [18 favorites]

I believe progressives and liberals who are serious about curbing American right wing authoritarianism in the long term should plan to push back against overly conservative D leadership. What's your plan?

Pressing for term limits and campaign finance reform, as soon as we make sure 2016's version of Mussolini doesn't get into the White House.
posted by Mooski at 9:39 AM on July 31, 2016 [11 favorites]

Trump later said of Russia, "they're not going to go into Ukraine," which....yeah. Part for the course at this point.

On This Week with George Stephanopoulos, (which is perhaps what you're talking about) he not only said "they're not going to go into Ukraine" but also simultaneously that Russia "took Crimea" and that he'd heard that the people in Crimea wanted to join Russia of their own accord.

Sudeten Crisis, appeasement, etc.
posted by XMLicious at 9:40 AM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

airing nerdy laundry:

For starters, which outcome would you prefer: Clinton wins, or Trump wins?
posted by argybarg at 9:40 AM on July 31, 2016 [14 favorites]

What's your plan?

Electing a more liberal Congress, as soon as we make sure 2016's version of Mussolini doesn't get into the White House and put his cronies on the Supreme Court.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:40 AM on July 31, 2016 [36 favorites]

If you want to move the Dems left, rewarding them for adopting their most progressive platform ever would be a good start.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:44 AM on July 31, 2016 [77 favorites]

going Green might signal to the D Party that they should move left if they want my vote in future

This "signaling" dodge is more voter-as-consumer nonsense. By your own logic, your vote in a non-swing state can not possibly materially affect the outcome, so why would Democrats feel compelled to pay attention to the fact that the Greens got a few extra tenths of a percentage point there?
posted by tonycpsu at 9:45 AM on July 31, 2016 [41 favorites]

> "For non-swing state voters like me, going Green might signal to the D Party that they should move left if they want my vote in future."

I think the main argument against this is that historically, it tends not to work. The Democratic Party has generally seen the far left abandoning them as a signal to try to recruit voters from the center. The Democratic Party moves further left when the left stays involved and engaged.

I actually think the successes of the Sanders campaign in influencing the current Democratic Party platform and rhetoric is a great example of this -- he ran as a Democrat, not an independent. I think, and the past suggests, that if his voters stick with the party now they're going to get a lot more of what they want out of it.
posted by kyrademon at 9:49 AM on July 31, 2016 [69 favorites]

Is there really no form of activism that would advance the causes of the Left during Hillary's presidency?
posted by argybarg at 9:50 AM on July 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

More on signaling. In fact all you are signaling is you are a untrustworthy voter whose refusal to accept a party's moving in your direction unless it is 100%. As much as it's hard to remember, at their core, parties ARE their voting members.
posted by aspo at 9:51 AM on July 31, 2016 [33 favorites]

The signalling occurred via Sanders. Now it is time to solidify the leftward gains.
posted by zyxwvut at 9:52 AM on July 31, 2016 [21 favorites]

So there's some psychology here that I think is important and one reason a progressive might argue for "compromising" and voting for Clinton over a third party ("compromising" in quotes because all candidates are compromises, president often the most).

It turns out if you do something for someone, you feel more engaged and often want to interact again (assuming the experience was not awful). If you vote third party, the inevitable outcome right now is that your candidate will not have won and you won't have given the main thing you have to give to the candidate who does. The candidate you voted for owes you at least in small amount which might help you stay engaged (for example voting and campaigning in mid-terms) in order to make that vote count.

Voting third party means you've already in some sense washed your hands of engaging. They don't owe you and you don't owe them (they being Clinton and the Democrats). Sure it's possible to still campaign heavily and work for progressive values but the psychology is working against you in our system where it's very hard for third parties to gain traction. Our system rewards people and ideas that stay engaged in the main parties, taking them over and transforming them.

This is not an argument for anyone here. I'm offering it as an angle towards viewing why people compromise - and how to talk about it with fence sitters.
posted by R343L at 9:58 AM on July 31, 2016 [8 favorites]

The Clinton campaign just asked me for $72. I don't know fit hey are trying to work me down from the previous request of $84, but I need an option to say "hey, I'm volunteering next weekend, hit me up for money again in a month."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:02 AM on July 31, 2016

Clinton's latest move was to promote to VP -in 2016- a pro-Wall Street deregulator.

My point is proved again. If you are going to cite something as a reason for your hatred of Clinton, get it right. Kaine requested that Yellen exempt regional banks and credit unions/community banks from some of the regulations that the big national banks are under, in terms of reporting daily liquidity and so on. Now, you can disagree with that -- some of the regional banks and credit unions can still be pretty big even if they wouldn't have the same world-wide impact as the big nationals -- but they are not 'Wall Street'. When people spew junk like this, I know that they haven't actually paid much attention to Kaine, but just got some pre-chewed line that they are repeating.
posted by tavella at 10:03 AM on July 31, 2016 [85 favorites]

"hit me up for money again in a month."

In my experience you don't need to worry about that.
posted by bongo_x at 10:04 AM on July 31, 2016 [10 favorites]

bongo_x, truth, I think I meant, "don't hit me up for ridiculous amounts of money for awhile."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:06 AM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

Donald Trump's campaign works on the same principle as Montgomery Burns's immune system. It's overflowing with things that would normally be able to take down a campaign, but since there's just so many of them it's impossible for the media and the public to focus on any of them long enough to actually take down the campaign.
posted by ckape at 10:06 AM on July 31, 2016 [8 favorites]

Commission on Presidential Debates responds to Trump now complaining about schedule set up last year
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:15 AM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

What's your plan?

I think the left could start by working to undo some of the damage that the Sanders campaign has done with voters of color. They are not incidental to your project. You cannot succeed without them. "The left" did not fail in this election because of some sort of evil DNC scheming. You failed because you didn't convince the majority of voters in the Democratic primaries that your candidate was the best one. If you want to win, you need to convince people that you're right and competent and trustworthy, which is a matter of building relationships in communities. And having a President Trump is not going to help with any of that.

We also desperately need to undo Citizens United, but again, President Trump's Supreme Court nominees are not going to do that.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:15 AM on July 31, 2016 [22 favorites]

Can phone banking be done by someone who lives out-of-country but has an internet connection? I've been thinking that maybe I should do more than contribute money this year.
posted by kyrademon at 10:16 AM on July 31, 2016

"Trump later said of Russia, "they're not going to go into Ukraine," which....yeah. Part for the course at this point."

On This Week with George Stephanopoulos, (which is perhaps what you're talking about) he not only said "they're not going to go into Ukraine" but also simultaneously that Russia "took Crimea" and that he'd heard that the people in Crimea wanted to join Russia of their own accord.

C&L has the clip: Trump Insists Putin Isn't 'In Ukraine' And Would Never Invade It
posted by homunculus at 10:18 AM on July 31, 2016

"I can't decide how to vote on whether we should all eat shit or ice cream. I mean, it's chocolate ice cream so they're both brown, pretty much the same. And chocolate is not my favorite flavor. Maybe shit doesn't taste as bad a you think? Maybe I'll just sit here and eat jelly beans to send a signal that they shouldn't have gone with chocolate, even though I'm still going to have to eat the shit or ice cream that other people chose."
posted by bongo_x at 10:18 AM on July 31, 2016 [30 favorites]

For non-swing state voters like me, going Green might signal to the D Party that they should move left if they want my vote in future.

Nope. They are savvy enough to know that if someone is comparing a party that has to make governing decisions to one that can just issue pie-in-the-sky ideals that are never forced to meet reality, much less political compromise to see at least partial enactment, they are always, always, always going to find some excuse for why Democrats are not pure enough and are never, ever, ever going to be part of their coalition.

This is true in the generic sense and doubly true this year when the Democrats have taken a large step to the left. Going Green this year, if it tells them anything, only tells them how many people they'll never be able to reach no matter what they do.

Is there really no form of activism that would advance the causes of the Left during Hillary's presidency?

Of course there is. Show up in every general election and vote for the Democrat. When it's reasonable to think that a more progressive Democrat might win the election for some office, show up in the primary election and vote for that more progressive candidate. If there isn't that more progressive candidate, recruit or be that candidate. Show up for off-year elections and vote for Democrats. Show up for state elections and vote for Democrats. Show up for judicial elections and vote for Democrats. Show up and volunteer for Democrats, especially more progressive Democrats. Give money to Democrats and especially more progressive Democrats.

Be indispensable to victory instead of pre-emptively dispensing with yourselves and making yourselves irrelevant to the many victories they will win without you.

Rinse and repeat for maybe 10-20 years. I mean, honestly, this is not rocket science. This is how the Christian right began to dominate the Republican Party.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:19 AM on July 31, 2016 [97 favorites]

And of course continuing to attack the Democratic campaign when we are fighting against an opponent who is literally attacking Muslims because of their religion is a particularly good look.
...
If you don't want Trump to become President, why are you helping him? Even if you are not in a battleground state, every time you post on here or on Facebook with these constant attacks on Clinton, you are convincing other voters, who are in battleground states, that there is a legitimate reason not to vote for Clinton, thereby increasing the chances that Trump will become President. There are only two options in this election, and one of them is going to become President of the United States.

Look, I can respect the position of someone "of the left" who decides to hold his or her nose -- even if they need to do it so hard it almost twists off, as someone put it in another thread -- and vote for Hillary because the alternative is Trump. That I can understand.

What I can not understand is a "hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil" policy towards Clinton. That is an anti-intellectual and anti-progressive position -- that we should just uncritically fall in line behind her and exalt the leader. Sorry, I refuse to do that -- not with Clinton, not with anybody.

Yes, I've posted plenty of articles critical of Clinton. Clinton has, in my view, many seriously problematic aspects that are lost in this weird celebration of her. She's a neoliberal, a war hawk, a serial liar, a dictator supporter, in the pocket of Wall Street, etc. No doubt she has a few positive positions as well. But, on balance, she is tremendously flawed from a progressive perspective, in my estimation. I won't rehearse that argument here.

I've also posted articles critical of other candidates (Sanders, Trump, etc.) as well in plenty of other threads. I hardly think that Clinton is unique in these defects (she tends to share many of them with other mainstream politicians). For myself, I find little value in posting criticisms of Trump at this point since a) everyone else is taking care of that, so why bother b) it's not like there's anyone I need to convince on MF that Trump is a dangerous ignoramus -- there not a single Trump supporter on MF (or if there is they've been keeping very well hidden).

Frankly, if you're worried about "convincing other voters", I think the best tactic is to just be up front about why you think voting Hillary is a good idea while acknowledging her shortcomings (and plenty of people on MF, of course, have been doing this). People don't react well to a Wizard-of-Oz like evasion of a discussion of Hillary's flaws. Or -- even worse -- the accusation that they are criticizing her because of sexism or false consciousness or whatever (even if there is truth to the charge).

The idea that if one isn't praising Hillary while discussing the election one is helping Trump is ridiculous. MF exists as a place for us to discuss these issues intelligently and come closer to the truth. At least, I hope it does.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 10:20 AM on July 31, 2016 [8 favorites]

On whether Trump has a financial relationship with Russian oligarchs, Manafort, video: "That's what he said. Uh, that's what I said. That's obviously what our position is."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:22 AM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Non-citizens may volunteer for political campaigns, including phonebanking.
posted by EarBucket at 10:24 AM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

NPB, your assertion that people are falling in line with Clinton derails everything you say after that. You are insulting me, insulting everyone that chose to vote for Clinton. Don't say I'm too stupid to look at her track record and still find many reasons to vote for her that aren't "she's not Trump".
posted by JakeEXTREME at 10:24 AM on July 31, 2016 [35 favorites]

Or -- even worse -- the accusation that they are criticizing her because of sexism or false consciousness or whatever (even if there is truth to the charge).

I've actually seen several people in the recent election/convention threads point out that talking things out in those threads raised their awareness of their own sexism as it pertains to their perception of Hillary. Maybe it's not working on you, but it has worked on some.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:25 AM on July 31, 2016 [21 favorites]

Do you think anyone on his staff currently actually gives a shit about him actually winning? As long as they are still getting paychecks, I'm pretty sure that the ghouls he is employing don't care one way or another what happens.

I think you're right. I hope they were smart enough to get the money up front, not on contract.
posted by ctmf at 10:27 AM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

> "Non-citizens may volunteer for political campaigns, including phonebanking."

That's not the issue, I am a citizen. I live out-of-country and don't have a reliable cell phone, but I do have internet.
posted by kyrademon at 10:27 AM on July 31, 2016

What I can not understand is a "hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil" policy towards Clinton. That is an anti-intellectual and anti-progressive position -- that we should just uncritically fall in line behind her and exalt the leader. Sorry, I refuse to do that -- not with Clinton, not with anybody.

What I think you're not understanding is that a lot of people do not agree with you. I like Clinton. I do not expect my elected officials to be perfect or agree with me 100%.
posted by bongo_x at 10:27 AM on July 31, 2016 [38 favorites]

Yes, I've posted plenty of articles critical of Clinton. Clinton has, in my view, many seriously problematic aspects that are lost in this weird celebration of her. She's a neoliberal, a war hawk, a serial liar, a dictator supporter, in the pocket of Wall Street, etc. No doubt she has a few positive positions as well. But, on balance, she is tremendously flawed from a progressive perspective, in my estimation. I won't rehearse that argument here.

I've also posted articles critical of other candidates (Sanders, Trump, etc.) as well in plenty of other threads. I hardly think that Clinton is unique in these defects (she tends to share many of them with other mainstream politicians).

Turning the presidential election into an ideological purity contest is not good for progressivism. It is by far more advantageous to the right.

MF exists as a place for us to discuss these issues intelligently and come closer to the truth.

Indeed.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:29 AM on July 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

The idea that if one isn't praising Hillary while discussing the election one is helping Trump is ridiculous. MF exists as a place for us to discuss these issues intelligently and come closer to the truth.

Your repeated copy-pasting of the same articles across multiple threads and wild accusations are certainly a good way of convincing us you're here to do that.
posted by winna at 10:32 AM on July 31, 2016 [34 favorites]

Much of the right doesn't like Trump but isn't having this handwringing ideological purity debate because they know if they don't fall in line their candidate has no chance. This is how the Republicans have control of Congress.
posted by AFABulous at 10:36 AM on July 31, 2016 [11 favorites]

that we should just uncritically fall in line behind her and exalt the leader.

While I'm certain there are some doe-eyed boosters out there, most folks I know who support her—most folks who have spoken up in even emphatic support of Clinton on MetaFilter for that matter—seem to doing so with a reasonable amount of critical awareness of the compromises and limits that come with her candidacy. That they are supporting her nonetheless, either in general or over Trump in particular, is not a sign of lack of critical thought or of reflexive, exalting support.

When you get to the point that what you're arguing against people doing isn't what most folks actually are doing in the first place, it makes it very difficult to have patience for anything that comes attached to that argument.
posted by cortex at 10:36 AM on July 31, 2016 [58 favorites]

What's your plan?

What's your plan? Besides sitting on the sideline throwing darts? Maybe the left is as much to blame as moderate democrats for rightwing authoritarianism since the left hasn't been able to nominate a good/popular enough candidate to get even close to the presidency since FDR. The world isn't always as liberal as we want it to be, it takes work to make it that way and that's a long slow slog filled with starts and stops, successes and, yes, mistakes. It's easy to be pure and without fault just pointing out what you would have done better.
posted by chris24 at 10:38 AM on July 31, 2016 [10 favorites]

NPB, do you think your usual mode of drive-by link posting is helping us "discuss these issues intelligently and come closer to the truth?"

Yes, I've posted plenty of articles critical of Clinton. Clinton has, in my view, many seriously problematic aspects that are lost in this weird celebration of her. She's a neoliberal, a war hawk, a serial liar, a dictator supporter, in the pocket of Wall Street, etc. No doubt she has a few positive positions as well. But, on balance, she is tremendously flawed from a progressive perspective, in my estimation. I won't rehearse that argument here.

Well, first of all, your assertion that Clinton is a serial liar is a talking point from the far-right and doesn't bear closer examination. Several sites that take the time to evaluate the various claims of politicians have shown that she is actually the most truthful of all candidates in this presidential race.

In any case, what are your alternatives? Jill "I will first support anti-vaxxers/Brexit/homeopathy, then pretend I never did" Stein? Is she truthful?

Yes, Clinton voted for the Iraq war. So did many others, including Biden. Do you reserve this level of ire for him too?

Look, I am not saying that Clinton is perfect from a left perspective. No one in the current political climate could ever hope to be. Like it or not, there is no hidden group of voters who would consistently vote for the left - there is a group, but, as you saw, they were not enough to propel Bernie to victory (and don't tell me the primary was stolen from him - there were some inappropriate emails, but nothing to indicate that anything actually happened, and the polls consistently showed that Clinton enjoyed greater popular support than Sanders). Until the left is able to take control of the political discourse, we are always going to be in the position of voting for the best option out of two that are not perfect by left standards. That is the nature of politics.

Why do I think criticizing Clinton is a bad thing, right now? Because this is no ordinary election. This is no ordinary choice. Your actions have consequences. Please consider the Brexit vote. There are many on the left who considered a vote for a Leave a way of signaling that they were unhappy with the status quo. If Remain had won, that would have been just fine, the Leave-voters in that position could feel happy they had not sullied their hands by voting for Remain.

But sometimes, these signals actually impact things. When you criticize Clinton right now, you are playing into the hands of the far-right. You are making it more likely that the far left feels unable to "hold their nose" and vote for Clinton, even in swing states. You are directly helping to elect Trump. If that is not your aim, if you believe, like me, that a Trump presidency would be a disaster for the United States, the world, and progressive causes, then bury the hatchet until November. Explain to your fellow Bernie-voters why a Clinton presidency would be preferable to a Trump one (because it would be, on pretty much every measure). The Democratic party has already moved left, you have already made significant progress, don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
posted by peacheater at 10:40 AM on July 31, 2016 [54 favorites]

Preibus: party will support Trump on debate date protest, despite the RNC being part of the commission that chose the dates in the first place.
posted by murphy slaw at 10:40 AM on July 31, 2016 [12 favorites]

We have 2 candidates. We have argued and debated a long time to get there. For anyone still debating the candidates it's that point in the argument where I have to ask "What is it you want to happen here?"
posted by bongo_x at 10:43 AM on July 31, 2016 [11 favorites]

Preibus: party will support Trump on debate date protest, despite the RNC being part of the commission that chose the dates in the first place.

……...moves
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:43 AM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

This is the question that left dissenters need to ask themselves about Hillary Clinton, if they haven’t already: is there anything that Hillary Clinton can do to redeem herself to you?

If there isn’t, you can continue to protest her existence, but don’t be upset if she doesn’t respond — you wouldn’t accept a response if you got it.
posted by salix at 10:45 AM on July 31, 2016 [26 favorites]

The NFL should just cancel their games that Sunday to troll him.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:46 AM on July 31, 2016 [8 favorites]

The NFL should just cancel their games that Sunday to troll him.

I was thinking that, but it would be so expensive. I wonder if they could just change the times?
posted by bongo_x at 10:47 AM on July 31, 2016

I promise you no one in the Democratic Party structure gives any thought to [the Green Party] at all, much less looking at voting turnout as part of any sort of decision tree.

QFMFT.

For example, Votebuilder (the voter-file software in the news a few months ago because the Sanders campaign got access to some Clinton data) doesn't even have a listing for "Green Party" for tagging voters. A voter is either Democrat, Republican, NPA, Independent, or "Other." As far as the database used for tracking voters goes, a Green Part member might as well be a Libertarian or member of the Party for Socialism and Liberation.

The Democratic Party doesn't even have a mechanism to track who is registered in the Green Party.
posted by Cookiebastard at 10:49 AM on July 31, 2016 [22 favorites]

Morning brunch with the NFL. It could be a thing.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:49 AM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

...wow, the Hillary phone banking tool is amazingly well done.

odinsdream (or anyone else), if you could post a step by step on how to start phone banking and the commitment involved, it would be a great service to those of us considering doing this (like me).
posted by peacheater at 10:52 AM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

The idea that Trump can get away with just whining about the debates and not going is so What The Fuck. I get that the modern Republican party has given up any pretense that they care about governing beyond a giant Fuck You to the country, but isn't there a point at which any even remotely sane adults stop pretending?

Can we just have a televised debate where Hillary spends several hours asking why Trump is too much of coward to show up, and what does he think being a leader means?
posted by aspo at 10:54 AM on July 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

OK, never mind, it literally is incredibly easy to use. I'm kind of scared to do it though. Are people nice?
posted by peacheater at 10:55 AM on July 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

I've considered whether I'm guilty of too much boosterism in these election threads. Now that the ugliness of the primary has started to recede, I've found it a big relief to talk about a candidate I genuinely admire and am inspired by. Plus, we're coming off of a week-long convention that hit lots of emotional high notes and left me genuinely optimistic for the first time in a while.

I think another issue is that I've made a deliberate attempt in general to avoid the whole pre-apologizing thing. "Yes, I know Clinton is awful, but...", or "Yes, I acknowledge that Clinton was wrong about XYZ, but..." We're all thoughtful adults who are capable of nuance, and I shouldn't need to beg people to accept my liberal bona fides by talking about why Clinton is bad before discussing the things I like about her and her platform.

Also - and I know the sexism issue can raise hackles - but that sort of conditional, apologetic way of talking is something that many women have been conditioned to do, which is why I'm trying to avoid it.
posted by Salieri at 10:55 AM on July 31, 2016 [48 favorites]

I am also terrified of using the phone banking tool due to concern about reaching Trumpist assholes on the other end. :(
posted by stolyarova at 10:57 AM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

"We're not going to agree with anything our nominee doesn't agree with," Priebus said on CBS's "Face the Nation." "We're not going to be having debates on Saturday and Sunday night."

The weaselest of weasel words. This man's dedicated his life to a wretched cause, but I know he's not stupid. How does that shit sandwich taste, Reince? You've been working on the recipe for years. Is it everything you hoped for?
posted by Countess Elena at 10:57 AM on July 31, 2016 [10 favorites]

OK, never mind, it literally is incredibly easy to use. I'm kind of scared to do it though. Are people nice?

no.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:58 AM on July 31, 2016 [8 favorites]

no.

How mean are we talking, exactly? :(
posted by stolyarova at 10:59 AM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Republican party is showing that their modus operandi is to surrender all autonomy to the biggest baddest bully ... err Alpha on the block. Right now Trump is the Alpha dog and everyone in his party (with the possible exception of Cruz) is basically rolling over and showing their belly to Trump.

When Trump was acting is a disgraceful manner regarding McCain I though maybe that would get some in his party to challenge Trump but then even McCain has been brought to heel (I guess getting re-elected is more important than standing up for yourself).

But now there is more or less no Republican voices that are willing to call out the Trumpster Fire for being an egregious asshole. That's what happens when you have a 20 year process of primarying anyone who dares disagree with you. Now the only people are left are those that would make Quisling look like he had a backbone.
posted by vuron at 10:59 AM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Heh, so not only did Donald insult a beloved fire marshal right after being rescued from a stuck elevator by the fire department, Donald's own security team (presumably "the best people") got him trapped there in the first place:

According to Perry Sanders, a lawyer who co-owns the hotel, Mr Trump’s security team had control of the hotel’s lifts at the time.

“The party were model guests but security insisted on having manual control of the elevators," he said.

He explained an investigation into the mishap on Friday afternoon by technicians revealed the elevator stopped working because someone turned the manual key while it was moving.
posted by salix at 11:03 AM on July 31, 2016 [60 favorites]

Are people nice?

Not always. I think I've mentioned here that I have actual, diagnosed social anxiety, and I don't mind too much when people are not nice, because I've accepted that it's just part of the process. Once you've done it a bit, you will stop minding when people snap at you. You may still get the very occasional really upsetting call, and it's good to have someone around to process that with if it happens. But it's pretty rare. Mostly, they're vaguely annoyed, and they either answer your questions or they hang up.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:04 AM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Fellow liberals please don't fuck this once in a lifetime opportunity. A Clinton landslide could give us the kind of House and Senate we saw after the LBJ landslide. Where we managed to get Medicare, Medicaid, etc.
Turn away from shitting on Clinton and the DNC and instead focus on getting liberals elected at the State, county and local level. Help win back the House and Senate.

There will be time after the election, if we win, to hold Hillary to her promises and work with a liberal majority to push agendas, reform the DNC and primary process. For now we have fewer than 100 days and energy spent attacking Hillary is energy that you took from ensuring a liberal victory.
posted by humanfont at 11:04 AM on July 31, 2016 [54 favorites]

If it's anything like the phone-bank tool the Obama campaign used to have, some people are not going to be happy to hear from you, even if you're politically on the same side

Not like, working as a telemarketer bad, though
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:04 AM on July 31, 2016

Facebanking is the new hotness though. Because all your facebook friends love being bombarded with countless barely concealed political campaign propaganda.
posted by vuron at 11:08 AM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

The Clinton campaign just asked me for $72. I don't know fit hey are trying to work me down from the previous request of $84,

So sorry, that must have been a glitch in the algorithm. (It was supposed to ask for $63)
posted by ctmf at 11:09 AM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

For those who have door to door canvassed in the past, what's the mean/nice ratio when you're face to face with folks?
posted by soren_lorensen at 11:10 AM on July 31, 2016

FGOTUS is a dreadful acronym though. Bubba Clinton. Bubba of The United States. BOTUS.

"FLOTUS" is already pretty bad. It's one letter away from "flatus."
posted by infinitywaltz at 11:11 AM on July 31, 2016

Are people nice?

Canvassing and phonebanking for Obama, I heard him called every horrible slur possible, and I was called terrible things for supporting him.

People are not nice.

But for every 100 calls that get made, Hillary will get a new vote. For every 14 doors you knock in your neighborhood, Hillary will get a new vote.

Picture making 100 calls and your friends making 100 calls and people in swing states all over the country making 100 calls, winning one vote at a time.

Picture the work, the hard work of getting treated shitty by strangers for trying to do some good in the world paying off. Picture these mean assholes on the other end of the line keeping their health insurance. Picture them keeping their reproductive rights. Picture them, and you, and everyone living a better life than if Donald Fucking Trump becomes President.
posted by Cookiebastard at 11:16 AM on July 31, 2016 [30 favorites]

Oh dear looks like it IS this Constutution selling, which is the bad one.
posted by Artw at 11:16 AM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

For those who have door to door canvassed in the past, what's the mean/nice ratio when you're face to face with folks?

It so totally depends on where you are. I'm doing it in Iowa now (I mean, not right now, but I'll be going out later this afternoon), and people here are polite even when they totally hate your candidate's guts. Iowa Nice is a deep, deep impulse, apparently. I canvassed in Indiana in 2008, and people literally yelled racial slurs at me. (And I'm white. Apparently I am a lover of people for whom the racial slurs are appropriate.) I did some canvassing in Wisconsin in 2004, and people were not super friendly but not as scary as the people in Indiana were. On the other hand, my candidate that time was a white man, so there's that.

The thing is, you can do it. Lots of people do, and it's not easy for anyone. It gets easier the more you do it, I promise!
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:20 AM on July 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

I door-to-door canvassed in 2012 and people were extremely mean (NV, deep red county).
posted by stolyarova at 11:21 AM on July 31, 2016

I'm an extreme introvert with anxiety issues, though, so it probably wasn't as bad as I felt like it was at the time. And it was good exercise!
posted by stolyarova at 11:22 AM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

@soren_lorensen: I campaigned for Obama in 2008 in the Pittsburgh area. It really depends on the neighbourhood. If you're doing GOTV work in a reliably D area up the road from CMU, say, it's pretty relaxed. Door-to-door in the more peripheral areas with the aim of convincing undecideds can be slightly more confrontational, but it was never that bad for me.*

At least in 2008, the campaign didn't want us wasting time having arguments with people whose minds were made up in favour of McCain. The voter-tracking system attempted to rate people by how strongly they supported either candidate (with some input to that system from phone banking), and we stayed away from the R stalwarts.

You might be able to work with the campaign office to arrange outings so that you're (a) not alone (b) only sent on certain types of canvassing missions. (I was always paired for my canvassing, but we usually worked opposite sides of the street.)

I got to see parts of the city I had never seen before, which was an interesting side benefit. It's the only time I ever had any business in Duck Hollow, for example.

Anyway, I would ask and see if you can volunteer for runs you're comfortable with.

* big disclaimer: cis white dude here.
posted by tss at 11:24 AM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

soren_lorensen: "For those who have door to door canvassed in the past, what's the mean/nice ratio when you're face to face with folks?"

It was probably 95% nice to 5% mean when I was campaigning for Obama in 2008 but it helped that I was canvassing mostly in african-american neighborhoods. The vast majority of people were super sweet to this big dorky white guy wandering around their streets with a clipboard asking them if they were supporting the first black nominee for president.
posted by octothorpe at 11:24 AM on July 31, 2016 [9 favorites]

The best selling pocket Constitution on Amazon appears to be the Bicentennial Commission edition, fortunately.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:24 AM on July 31, 2016

soren_lorensen

If you can canvass your own neighborhood, then people are way nicer and canvassing is way more effective. They've seen you mowing the lawn or walking the dog or whatever, and they know you're a neighbor, and you can say "I live over on Nth Street and I hope you'll vote for Hillary." And they'll associate Hillary with their nice neighbor soren_lorensen and are more likely to vote for Hillary because of that. If you canvass a strange neighborhood, it's tougher. But most people are nice most of the time. A few people suck.

I strongly advocate for people canvassing their own neighborhoods. Not sure how good the Hillary Campaign is at organizing that.
posted by Cookiebastard at 11:25 AM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm an extreme introvert with anxiety issues, though, so it probably wasn't as bad as I felt like it was at the time. And it was good exercise!

As another extreme introvert with anxiety issues, I just want you to know I admire the FUCK out of you for being able to do canvassing anyway. Seriously, I'm taking a knee here.
posted by Mooski at 11:27 AM on July 31, 2016 [17 favorites]

Oh man I'm feeling so guilty. The thought of deliberately engaging hostile people - over the phone is almost worse than in person! - gives me hives. You all who do that are awesome.

I need to break through the discomfort and find a way to contribute, because I don't want to look back at this election and say that I didn't give it my all, not with these stakes.
posted by Salieri at 11:27 AM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

Mike Pence is coming to my area tomorrow. Should I go protest, and if so, what should my sign say? Should I take pepper spray?
posted by stolyarova at 11:28 AM on July 31, 2016

> This is not an argument for anyone here. I'm offering it as an angle towards viewing why people compromise - and how to talk about it with fence sitters.

This, and to paraphrase what folks said before "which terrain would you rather fight in? Hillary's or Trump's?"
posted by mrzarquon at 11:31 AM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

Should I go protest, and if so, what should my sign say?

"I'd rather vote for a complete Johnson than you"
posted by Talez at 11:31 AM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

If you're shy, the best way to canvas is with a buddy. It helps a lot to share the talking load and you tend to reinforce each other. You also look less like a lone crazy at the door.
posted by octothorpe at 11:32 AM on July 31, 2016

Talez, love it! Might actually persuade some Trump-reluctants to vote for Johnson instead (best case for my area, I'm afraid). Also, a lower chance of getting physically assaulted than if I held a pro-Clinton sign (I'm a petite woman).
posted by stolyarova at 11:33 AM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

Oh and hey - the Campaign will need people for data entry, help keeping the field-office tidy, and all kinds of stuff. Knocking and Calling are great, but there's tons of other stuff to do to help support the campaign.
posted by Cookiebastard at 11:33 AM on July 31, 2016

What I need to make is a counter script for when Trump canvassers and phone bankers try to sell me.
posted by ctmf at 11:33 AM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

The difference between disaffected lefties and disaffected moderate Republicans is that the Republicans I know who are supporting Johnson are clear eyed that it is a fakey vote for Hillary. The people considering Stein have a very long and twisted strange analysis for how their vote is a tea leaf to be scrutinized for meaning. How the Republicans managed to learn the lessons of 2000 yet the left still hasn't is utterly beyond me.
posted by gatorae at 11:34 AM on July 31, 2016 [25 favorites]

I'd say something about how he apparently rates being an American at best 4th (behind his religion, political ideology, and political party), but I'm not sure how to make that a snappy sign.
posted by ckape at 11:35 AM on July 31, 2016

PENCE: AMERICA 4TH? Nah, I'm not big on the America First rhetoric.
posted by stolyarova at 11:36 AM on July 31, 2016

Before I volunteer to canvass, I feel like I need to prepare a brief rebuttal for every false or misleading charge against Hillary, and that, uh, that might take me a while.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:37 AM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

Republicans are more comfortable with the idea of power. It's what they vote for, to claim power over the country.

Leftists vote more for personal identity and find the idea of collective power a bit more suspect.
posted by argybarg at 11:38 AM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

I would just go with "Pence Blows" but then I don't get invited to a lot of social functions
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:39 AM on July 31, 2016 [14 favorites]

Cookiebastard: "Oh and hey - the Campaign will need people for data entry, help keeping the field-office tidy, and all kinds of stuff. Knocking and Calling are great, but there's tons of other stuff to do to help support the campaign."

Yeah, there is some of that but 90% of what they're going to want volunteers to do is canvas and phone bank.

We didn't even have a field office for Obama; we just floated to whatever random office the field co-ordinator could wrangle up permissions for that week. Once were in a massage studio, another time was in a lawyer's office, a few times it was in the Postal Worker's Union office. He just kept boxes of print outs and burner phones in the trunk of his Honda Civic and wherever we ended up was the Pittsburgh Northside for Obama office for that day.
posted by octothorpe at 11:39 AM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

The people considering Stein have a very long and twisted strange analysis for how their vote is a tea leaf to be scrutinized for meaning.

I mean, when they see how many people voted for Deez Nutz they're going to be forced to go after the Nutz next time, right?
posted by bongo_x at 11:40 AM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

To honor Khizr Khan, the ACLU is giving away free pocket Constitution copies through the election.
posted by stolyarova at 11:40 AM on July 31, 2016 [40 favorites]

The Scott Adams Castration Effect is what I’m calling the fearful sensation of diminishment that some men experience when faced with strong women. The poor man. He’s got it bad.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 11:44 AM on July 31, 2016 [21 favorites]

octothorpe - Yes !-definitely YMMV! In my town we had 1 main field office and 4 smaller field offices.
posted by Cookiebastard at 11:45 AM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

Pence on fire?
posted by ctmf at 11:46 AM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Just watched Khizr Khan's interview with Meet the Press this morning.

Make that guy Secretary of State.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:48 AM on July 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

My anecdata of canvassing for state house and senate races in swing districts was that folks were pretty chill about me knocking on their doors, even the strident Republicans. I think people are friendlier about the candidates that haven't been in the news nonstop for a year. You're actually giving them new information.
posted by Banknote of the year at 11:49 AM on July 31, 2016

Scott Adams has become what Dave Sim would be if Sim weren't an artistic savant. I wonder if the two could make friends, maybe start an alt-right cartoon blog with A. Wyatt Mann.
posted by Countess Elena at 11:50 AM on July 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

To all the people worried about phone banking: I feel you! The Sanders campaign had a yuge texting team. There were still assholes but it seemed to be enough removed from talking that it's what I would have been doing had I not been doing back-end stuff. (Texting did not require use of your personal phone # and there were no data charges.) Maybe someone familiar with the Clinton operation can tell us if there's something similar.
posted by Room 641-A at 11:52 AM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

This idea that effective canvassing requires you to be a devastatingly good debater who's ready with pitch-perfect refutations and talking points is probably not correct. You can find that stuff on TV. It's rarer to meet an actual human being from nearby who is sharing their own hopes and feelings about a political candidate---eye-to-eye and without a script---particularly one who is not a friend, relative, next-door-neighbour, or co-worker (with all the social freight that those relationships entail).

This is one reason why campaign offices like to send real humans door-to-door.
posted by tss at 11:54 AM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

Well, Clinton is definitely texting me non-stop, which I kind of wish she wouldn't do, because I don't have an unlimited texting plan. But the Dems generally go with the most-direct contact possible: their research suggests that face-to-face is more effective than phone calls, and personal phone calls are more effective than robo-calls. I would be surprised if they were doing a lot of texting, but I could be wrong.

One thing that you really can do if you're in a swing state is volunteer to provide housing for an organizer. They don't get paid very much, and having free housing is a huge help to them. I know a lot of people who have done that, and they've all said it was a good experience. The organizers are basically out working from the time they wake up to the time they go to sleep, so you don't see very much of them, but they're generally very earnest and well-behaved young folks, and they're fun to be around.

This idea that effective canvassing requires you to be a devastatingly good debater who's ready with pitch-perfect refutations and talking points is probably not correct.

It's definitely not correct. You actually really don't want to try to overwhelm people with point-by-point refutations: it just bores them and pisses them off. People don't like being lectured to. You want to hear them out and then reframe the debate. "I totally understand that you think that Hillary is too close to Wall Street. I think that's been overstated, but even if it's completely true: we need to overturn Citizens United before we can get money out of politics. Hillary has always said that was a priority of hers, and it's definitely not a priority of whomever will be choosing Supreme Court justices for Trump. So I think voting for Hillary is the best way to achieve that goal, even though you have valid reservations about her."
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 12:03 PM on July 31, 2016 [18 favorites]

I'm planning on dropping in at the field office (the main Pittsburgh office is really close to my house) once I'm done mowing the lawn to see of I can rustle up some yard signs and I'll see of anyone there can talk to me about canvassing. I'd love to canvas my own neighborhood, I've lived up here for 10 years and I think a lot of people would probably recognize me.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:03 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think it's important to practice speaking to and, most crucally, listening to folks with opposite viewpoints. Most of them are not racist hatebags and would, in fact, do selfless things for their neighbors and want a good future for their country.
posted by argybarg at 12:04 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

The rebuttal to "Hillary is too close to Wall Street" is of course "Wall Street paid Hillary more than $200,000 to speak to them repeatedly. That's her 'I'm only speaking to you because you're paying me a truckload of money' rate. And offer me that much money and I'll speak to anything this side of a Klan rally. People she likes she'll not just speak to but help for free."
posted by Francis at 12:06 PM on July 31, 2016 [13 favorites]

Serious question (maybe rhetorical? Google doesn't give me an immediate answer) - does phone banking and door-to-door canvassing really work in advocating for your candidate? Not as a get-out-the-vote measure - I can see a personal contact nudging someone to haul ass to the polls - but actual "I didn't know who I was going to vote for but now you have convinced me"? Speaking for myself, I hate having someone knocking on my door even if I am planning to vote for that candidate and I sure wouldn't make a decision based on a random visit. Sure, with local races having the candidate turn up at your door is a great personal contact and I can see that making a difference, but in a national race? I'm just curious what the actual effect is and if that has changed with the prevalence of the 24 hour news cycle and social media.

Don't even get me started about the people who approach you in the parking lot of the polling place. Who decides who they are going to vote for while walking into the building??
posted by Preserver at 12:06 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

That Time Jon Stewart Asked: Is Iraq Like Mike Pence's Indiana?
posted by homunculus at 12:10 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Don't even get me started about the people who approach you in the parking lot of the polling place. Who decides who they are going to vote for while walking into the building??

In the UK those are called 'Tellers' - and their job isn't so much to try to change your vote. It's to keep an approximate total of the number of votes each party has and an absolute total of the number of voters so we can send people round 'knocking up' - reminding people in the relevant wards that it's election day and asking them if they want a lift. And we can report in how the vote is going, possibly changing our strategy. (And as a third thing giving the activists a job on election day keeps them from gnawing their nails to the bone).
posted by Francis at 12:10 PM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

Who decides who they are going to vote for while walking into the building??

People who feel a civic duty to vote but who don't really pay attention to politics. I don't know what percentage of the electorate that is but it's definitely not zero.
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:13 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

A very quick google for studies suggests door to door canvassing is quite effective. Phone calls appear pretty mixed. Even flyers in the mail seem to have some effect. So yes the campaigns are not totally stupid. Also I doubt we'd see so much angst from seasoned republicans about Trump's lack of campaign organization if canvassing was pointless.
posted by R343L at 12:14 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

The truthout.org article is correct that Obama did not prioritize the 2008 D party platform's commitment to a public option or to poverty reduction, compared to, say, deficit reduction.

I'll give you deficit reduction, which is basically DC Disease, and I'm sure Obama will write about that in his memoir. Public option was a non-starter because the Senate votes (e.g. Joe Lieberman) simply didn't exist for it and could not be magicked up out of thin air. Poverty reduction? 2008-10 was mostly about short-term "get money in people's pockets and into the economy" such as the cut to the payroll tax, extension of unemployment benefits and SNAP, and stimulus projects. Most of the individualised stuff was done quietly so that the money would be spent and not saved.
posted by holgate at 12:20 PM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

If you're trying to reach young people without landlines and who don't really use the phone, texting is a good way to reach them. I believe the Sanders campaign only texted people who opted in to receive texts, though.

It's definitely not correct. You actually really don't want to try to overwhelm people with point-by-point refutations: it just bores them and pisses them off.

Also, social anxiety is a real thing and I don't think the people asking are concerned with being a great debater, they're concerned about being able to contribute in a way that works for them even if it's not the number one best ever way to canvass.
posted by Room 641-A at 12:20 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

The Grandeur of Hilary Clinton: Untrustworthiness and Social Progress.
"Hillary Clinton owes her reputation for untrustworthiness to a single large and admirable decision that she made long ago; and to a series of baffled responses that her decision aroused and continues to arouse; and to the hatreds and paranoias that, like weeds or fungi, eventually sprang from the bafflement—a long history. And every new phase in the long history has done her credit, even if some of those phases require too much explanation."
posted by storybored at 12:21 PM on July 31, 2016 [19 favorites]

The Obama campaign's big innovation was to use research methods borrowed from the social sciences and from business analytics to figure out what works and what doesn't. So the Democrats are actually targeting things pretty carefully. They know, for instance, that people will tell you that being contacted makes them less likely to vote for your candidate, but it's not true. There is literally no amount of contact that will make a person less likely to vote for you, even though people swear (literally swear: "fuck you, go away, I'm not going to vote for your candidate now") that it does. That sucks for people who don't want to be contacted, but it's what the research suggests.

Another thing that they realized is that some populations are much more susceptible to persuasion than other populations. So if you're getting contacted a lot, it's probably because there's something about your demographics or voting behavior that looks like you're a useful person to contact. So, for instance, in 2014, I was likely to be contacted because I was a single woman living in a low-income neighborhood but probably less likely to be contacted because I had voted in every single election since I moved to that address.

And finally, I believe the research does suggest that individual contact is better for turning out decided voters than for persuading undecided voters. But where I live, we're already doing GOTV, because people can sign up to vote by mail now. And in other places, you may be doing a lot of voter registration.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 12:21 PM on July 31, 2016 [8 favorites]

HI all... inspired by the conversation on this thread I made my way to the Clinton site, found the phone banking tool, and--as referenced earlier--it's really, really easy.

I'm a shameless extrovert and have no fear whatsoever of speaking on the phone, so this is one I can take for the team. For the rest of you extroverts out there, please go to the Clinton web site, sign up, and get to it! Easy peasy!
posted by Sublimity at 12:22 PM on July 31, 2016 [30 favorites]

I'm not saying social anxiety isn't a thing; I'm responding to remarks like this one:

I feel like I need to prepare a brief rebuttal for every false or misleading charge against Hillary

which I don't think is true. That's all.
posted by tss at 12:24 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

NPB, do you think your usual mode of drive-by link posting is helping us "discuss these issues intelligently and come closer to the truth?"

These election threads are very fast-moving. The ones over the past couple of weeks especially so. I read what's there, post an article I find helpful, and move on. It's almost impossible to get into an extended back-and-forth discussion when there's like 10 new comments every 15 seconds. Yes, I do hope that people are finding the articles I post helpful. Granted, some may not like the content because of partisanship, but that's a different story. Furthermore, I don't mind arguing a minority position, but defending that against all comers (something which I understand to be against MF etiquette) is also logistically difficult in a thread with a high posting rate.

Well, first of all, your assertion that Clinton is a serial liar is a talking point from the far-right and doesn't bear closer examination.

I'll limit myself to a couple of examples: her repeated misstatements about her email server, via this AP fact check. There are more examples cited in this article.

Question for you: just because the right says something, is it necessarily not true? Unfortunately for Clinton, sometimes the accusations are true. (Note I'm not trying to make any broader claims about the nature of the right's engagement with Clinton, etc.)

In any case, what are your alternatives? Jill "I will first support anti-vaxxers/Brexit/homeopathy, then pretend I never did" Stein? Is she truthful?

I've never advocated support for Stein. Or Bernie, for that matter.

If you're asking who I'm going to vote for in this election, I'll vote for the most left-wing candidate I see on my ballot. In any event, I haven't found a candidate worth my outspoken support.

If you're asking a more general question about electoral strategy, if progressives are inside the Democratic Party they will continue to do the bidding of the Democratic Party. This points to a third formation which can actually make demands of the Democrats -- and make them stick to those promises by refusing to support them if they don't. Plus, the domain of politics isn't limited to the electoral yadda yadda... this is a longer discussion.

So did many others, including Biden. Do you reserve this level of ire for him too?

He's not running for president, so naturally he's less discussed in presidential election threads. But yeah, if he were, I would, assuming he had a similar platform as Hillary. And yes, anyone's Senate vote to support the Iraq War was disgraceful.

Why do I think criticizing Clinton is a bad thing, right now? Because this is no ordinary election. This is no ordinary choice.

Ok, but even assuming this is true, this is a claim that Democrats make every election to get people to vote for them. If we're ever going to wiggle free of the two-party duopoly, at some point we need a break with this logic.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 12:29 PM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

I feel like I need to prepare a brief rebuttal for every false or misleading charge against Hillary...

I would like to find the best, most comprehensive rebuttal list online. Any suggestions?

I can get some polite agreement from the Cruz supporters in my family about how shifty Trump is. But then they pivot pretty fast to accusing Clinton of being a big liar, because that's what's in the zeitgeist. Is there a mega-list of explanations of Clinton's "scandals"? Ideally one that's factual but not exhaustive, because I can't stand to get much deeper into the who, what, where of Benghazi.

These relatives are starting to lean toward Gary Johnson, but I'd like to make sure their fear and loathing of Trump constantly exceeds their fear and loathing of H. Clinton.
posted by puddledork at 12:34 PM on July 31, 2016

I door to door canvassed for Obama in Indiana the first time and no-one was mean or threatening to me. Many people told me I was wasting my time and one guy tried to bait me about guns, but people were generally polite. I phone banked in the 2nd Obama campaign and those people were surprisingly friendly (given how many people I know who despise phone interruptions).

In the 2nd Obama election, I poll watched as an attorney (not as an election judge or poll worker) for the Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights Under the Law.Poll workers and random voters were vile to me although literally the only thing I did was sit in the polling place and count people who were turned away or otherwise had to argue to be allowed to cast votes. The poll workers were required to inform me when a provisional ballot was cast and I was allowed to tell people who I was or answer the questions about what they could do, but that was it.
posted by crush-onastick at 12:37 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

If we're ever going to wiggle free of the two-party duopoly, at some point we need a break with this logic.

The only way we will ever 'wiggle free of the two-party duopoly' is by passing a constitutional amendment to radically change the way elected officials are chosen in this country. A third party might be able to start at the state level and gradually build up support over decades, but if they do, the result will be that they supplant one of the other two major parties. Yeah, it's shitty. We're also stuck with it for the time being.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:37 PM on July 31, 2016 [27 favorites]

If we're ever going to wiggle free of the two-party duopoly, at some point we need a break with this logic.

If you're ever to wiggle free of the two-party duopoly (rather than have one party implode for about a decade and possibly be replaced by another) you need to ensure that the President isn't a winner takes all race.
posted by Francis at 12:39 PM on July 31, 2016 [8 favorites]

FWIW, I don't have a list of prepared rebuttals. So far in a dozen or so calls I've only gotten answering machines and have left a general "please support Hillary on November 8" message.

I don't know every jot and tittle of her career, nor every criticism real and imagined. What I do know is that she's had a career of literally decades of public service, has done far more good than harm, and is so much better suited to the presidency than Donald Trump that it's not even a close contest. I imagine if someone feels like they need to be combative about specific pointed accusations I can take that as a data point, thank them for their time, and move on. Maybe point them to politifact. com if I think it will help.
posted by Sublimity at 12:40 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

> "Ok, but even assuming this is true, this is a claim that Democrats make every election to get people to vote for them."

I am willing to literally swear that I will never make this argument again following this election unless the Republicans manage to find another utterly inexperienced blatantly racist willfully ignorant frighteningly narcissistic violence-advocating demagogue, or something equivalent like a genuine fire-and-brimstone lock-up-the-women-and-gays apocalyptic theocrat. After this, I will no longer make this argument for a McCain or a Dole or even a Romney. We are up against something terrifying here and I am willing to throw all my cards on the table if that will help stop it.
posted by kyrademon at 12:41 PM on July 31, 2016 [36 favorites]

FWIW, state ballot access laws for third parties can be a motivating factor to vote for a third party presidential nominee, as enough votes can open up (temporary) access down the ballot for that party in future elections. However, that's treating the symptom and not the cause: restrictive ballot access laws need reform and that should be the primary focus of third-party advocates. Kick up a fuss about being kept off the ballot for county commissions or state legislative races.
posted by holgate at 12:44 PM on July 31, 2016

The thing is, Noisy Pink Bubbles, that your problem is that you're a total outlier in the American political universe. Very, very few people in the US agree with your positions. So I think that the best use of your time is to ignore elections entirely and focus on the big picture, which is making a case for your political outlook. Once there are more than a handful of people who agree with you, you can try to figure out how to proceed strategically. What you're doing right now is not convincing anyone to agree with your political framework, but it is reinforcing ideas that make it more likely that a fascist will be elected.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 12:49 PM on July 31, 2016 [25 favorites]

The third from two party concept: does it need to be a separation of a party always? That line of thought never sat well with me. Couldn't it be created from scratch instead? Like if the Green Party actually tried to win something and then grew. I only really see the 3 from 2 idea being beneficial because of the built in infrastructure and maybe it would migrate too.

It could be a third party grown from scratch. The issue is it's a near-Thunderdome. There can be only two dominant parties at any given time. (It would surprise me but not stun me if we ended up with the Democratic Party and the Libertarian Party).

But from what I've seen of the US Green Party (and I'm a member of the Green Party of England and Wales) you'd honestly be better off starting from scratch - or maybe taking it over. What you need is a heavy collection of volunteers willing to put in the gruntwork in down-ticket races before you have a chance. And Ralph Nader and Jill Stein just shoot straight for the top spot.
posted by Francis at 12:51 PM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

I believe the Sanders campaign only texted people who opted in to receive texts, though.

I received multiple calls and texts from the Sanders campaign ahead of my state's primary and most DEFINITELY did not knowingly opt in for this. I was actually pretty annoyed about this.
posted by schadenfrau at 12:54 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

I understand where NPB is coming from. I'm definitely voting Clinton this time around, but I still have reservations about the treatment of people like Chelsea Manning, warrantless mass surveillance, rising tension with Russia, and various other issues. However, voting for a third party won't help correct any of those issues, either. The best thing I can do is make noise about them outside the voting booth and hope somebody hears me.
posted by stolyarova at 12:56 PM on July 31, 2016 [16 favorites]

Yeah I don't see the Green Party over here in the US doing anything with their current leadership. I had a hell of a time just trying to get someone on the phone willing to talk to me about anything other than "check out our website".

I should clarify that I am voting Clinton and was looking just to see how much outreach the Green Party had in my area. They didn't seem to even have an apparatus in play to try for the requisite signatures for the ballots in my state. Almost as if they were relying entirely on word of mouth.
posted by JakeEXTREME at 12:56 PM on July 31, 2016

The issue is it's a near-Thunderdome. There can be only two dominant parties at any given time. (It would surprise me but not stun me if we ended up with the Democratic Party and the Libertarian Party).

Exactly. It's the quirk of having a single run election that's first-past-the-post and uses an electoral college.

The only way to reliably win is 270 EVs which can only come through consolidation of spoilers into the main fold. If there's an election with less than 270 EVs it heads to the house so the house winner gets the election. It really isn't conducive to high primary votes for third parties.

If there was a runoff there'd be a higher third party primary vote in the pre-runoff election. If the election was an IRV popular vote contest you would see a hell of a lot more primary vote for third parties. But right now? Not a chance.
posted by Talez at 12:56 PM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

Also, if you don't have time to participate in a conversation, drive by spamming of links of questionable provenance is not really an acceptable alternative .
posted by schadenfrau at 12:57 PM on July 31, 2016 [27 favorites]

the greens seem to have no interest in doing the hard work to build a viable national party. they mount a quixotic presidential run every four years and can barely be arsed to run for city council the rest of the time.
posted by murphy slaw at 12:58 PM on July 31, 2016 [20 favorites]

Kaine requested that Yellen exempt regional banks and credit unions/community banks from some of the regulations that the big national banks are under

Thanks for the correction travella, my apologies to the mefi community for inaccurately calling Kaine a "Wall Street deregulator".

There's still the concern that Kaine has pushed for financial deregulation of large financial institutions, including US Bank and Capital One, and is on the Wasserman Schultz wing of not regulating payday lenders.

In addition to Kaine's skepticism towards financial regulation, he was friendly to anti-union laws as governor, and voted to fast track the TPP.

This means Kaine's on the economically conservative end of the D Party, has actively promoted economic policies that lead to stagnant/falling living standards for most Americans, and should not be ascendant within the Democratic Party

I'm not writing this to help Trump, but because I believe that progressives who view the D party leadership as targets for pressure are necessary for curbing right wing populism in the short and long term.
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 12:58 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

I won't say it's easy to get on the ballot here in WA but it's not particularly hard. My ballot had a Libertarian for nearly every office. My ballot had no Greens. My district is very liberal by national standards. This tells me the Greens at least in WA aren't seriously trying to govern so I'll keep voting democratic (mostly). This is also why given the way our system is structured in most races, it would make more sense (practically) to try to drag the Democratic Party left.
posted by R343L at 12:59 PM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

Well maybe nearly every office. But it was a lot. And despite ideological differences, the libertarian candidates weren't obviously kooks in most cases. That is, they were far above average for third party candidates in terms of relevant experience and ability to form coherent sentences in their candidate statements.
posted by R343L at 1:01 PM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

If you want to move the Democrats to the left, well, the Tea Party have done a good job at shifting the Republicans to the right. I guess you need to do whatever they did (which I’m pretty sure doesn’t include voting for a third party in presidential elections).

Although be careful what you wish for, because: look at what the Tea Party has done to the Republicans.
posted by Bloxworth Snout at 1:02 PM on July 31, 2016 [16 favorites]

The thing is, Noisy Pink Bubbles, that your problem is that you're a total outlier in the American political universe. Very, very few people in the US agree with your positions. So I think that the best use of your time is to ignore elections entirely and focus on the big picture, which is making a case for your political outlook. Once there are more than a handful of people who agree with you, you can try to figure out how to proceed strategically. What you're doing right now is not convincing anyone to agree with your political framework, but it is reinforcing ideas that make it more likely that a fascist will be elected.

This is pretty condescending
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 1:02 PM on July 31, 2016 [9 favorites]

this is a claim that Democrats make every election to get people to vote for them. If we're ever going to wiggle free of the two-party duopoly, at some point we need a break with this logic.

I agree. I am someone who has long resisted the "lesser of two evils" argument for most of my voting life on precisely this point. But for this election, I sincerely believe--for the first time not only in my voting life, but possibly the only time in modern U.S. election history--that it is, in fact, the correct argument.

This is why I posted my link to the 2002 French election above. If tens of millions of French socialists, Greens, communists, et al. could band together to vote for Jacques Fucking Chirac against Jean-Marie Le Pen, then I can and will cast my lot with Hillary Clinton against Donald Trump. (And no, I'm not going to use a clothespin while I do it.)

Yes, the "lesser of two evils" argument has essentially been (IMO) the Dems crying wolf for decades. But this time, there is actually a wolf at the door.
posted by the return of the thin white sock at 1:08 PM on July 31, 2016 [17 favorites]

If you want to move the Democrats to the left, well, the Tea Party have done a pretty good job at shifting the Republicans to the right. I guess you need to do whatever they did (which I’m pretty sure doesn’t include voting for a third party in presidential elections).
THIS.
(Of course it helps to have the financial backing of somebody like the Koch Brothers, which is going to be hard to find; even George Soros won't support you like that)
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:09 PM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'll limit myself to a couple of examples: her repeated misstatements about her email server, via this AP fact check. There are more examples cited in this article.

I've got my own skepticism of Clinton but the first fact I tried to check from that Harpers essay,

One can forgive her reticence about sharing the traumas of her childhood, which included her father cutting down his brother’s corpse from a noose.

is contradicted by this excerpt of a book by by Carl Bernstein, which says that Russell Rodham, Hillary's uncle, attempted to hang himself in 1948, but was saved by her father and lived until 1962.
posted by XMLicious at 1:13 PM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

Schadenfrau: I received multiple calls and texts from the Sanders campaign ahead of my state's primary and most DEFINITELY did not knowingly opt in for this. I was actually pretty annoyed about this.

I don't think calls are opt-in but if you asked to be removed from either list you should have been, immediately, because the tools were available. As a former volunteer, apologies if your request fell through the cracks.
posted by Room 641-A at 1:19 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't think the Democrats ever have won a "lesser of two evils election." Gore (I know, he really won, thanks) and Kerry got lukewarm reviews and lost. Very few people who voted for Obama thought we has "lesser of two evils."

I also don't recommend this approach. I don't think Clinton is evil, and I think she represents something new and interesting in the Democratic party: A consensus builder, a listener, a very accomplished legislator and diplomat, and a more committed leftist than her husband at least.
posted by argybarg at 1:20 PM on July 31, 2016 [34 favorites]

Also, seriously: Why does the left wing of the Democratic party have more of a right to be heard and deferred to than the center does?
posted by argybarg at 1:21 PM on July 31, 2016 [45 favorites]

I seriously don't understand how you can still take this position when we have literally watched the GOP become permanently irrelevant while the Democratic Party is currently in the process of splitting into Progressive and Centrist groups as part of a direct effort of its members.

You realize this is exactly what people were saying the other way barely five years ago, right?
posted by Etrigan at 1:24 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

A two-party duopoly is baked into our constitution. You will never break it through anything less than a new governing document for the United States government. Short of that, the best we can hope for is to replace one of the current major parties, and that process doesn't start with the presidency.>
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 1:29 PM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

If you want to support a third party candidate, you need to start by supporting changes to voting that would make more than two parties possible.
posted by VTX at 1:31 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

My protest sign is done! The front says:

I'D RATHER VOTE

FOR A COMPLETE

JOHNSON

THAN FOR TRUMP

And the back, rather trollily, says:



VOTE YOUR

CONSCIENCE

posted by stolyarova at 1:31 PM on July 31, 2016 [11 favorites]

There should be no problem with the idea of simultaneously pushing to elect Clinton as a more responsible POTUS over Trump while building an opposition movement that in time, potentially primary her and/or impeach her, should the need arise. Given the rise of the imperial presidency, such a plan might damn well be a natural reflex to whomever is elected, regardless of party or personality.
posted by Apocryphon at 1:34 PM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

I don't think the Democrats ever have won a "lesser of two evils election." Gore (I know, he really won, thanks) and Kerry got lukewarm reviews and lost. Very few people who voted for Obama thought we has "lesser of two evils."

I also don't recommend this approach. I don't think Clinton is evil, and I think she represents something new and interesting in the Democratic party: A consensus builder, a listener, a very accomplished legislator and diplomat, and a more committed leftist than her husband at least.

Fair enough, but trust me when I (and others in this thread) say that non-Democrat progressives/leftists are presented with this argument every four years like clockwork, often in pretty hostile terms. I think it's useful for Democrats, who are presumably trying to convince holdouts on the left, to openly acknowledge this as a way of understanding why some people may be resistant, and as a way of bridging the gap.
posted by the return of the thin white sock at 1:35 PM on July 31, 2016

odinsdream, I know it's silly, but I live in a deep red county and am genuinely afraid of being assaulted by angry Trump supporters if I publicly support Clinton. I'm a young woman and I'm going to be protesting alone.
posted by stolyarova at 1:36 PM on July 31, 2016 [9 favorites]

Also, seriously: Why does the left wing of the Democratic party have more of a right to be heard and deferred to than the center does?

Generally I think it's a fundamental lack of understanding of the political process. Look at this thread for examples! It seems to me that a lot of hard leftists think that certain actions are effective primarily because they really want them to be effective rather than through any evidence. Like "if I vote Green instead of Clinton despite her bending over backwards to accommodate my wishes it will shift the Democrats even further left!". No, no it won't. It will only prove there is no point in catering to your wishes because you are unpersuadeble
posted by Justinian at 1:37 PM on July 31, 2016 [45 favorites]

So what do you propose as an alternative? How, without actual structural changes to the Constitution, would a 3rd party ever be viable?

And how do stitch together leftists and Democratic centrists without compromise?
posted by argybarg at 1:37 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

Obama did not support marriage equality when he was elected. He didn't even say he did. His position "evolved."

Why did his position evolve? Well, activists won both legal and PR battles in a large number of states and turned the tide towards marriage equality while he was in office. Once the tide had turned, he backed marriage equality enthusiastically and has never looked back.

Maybe that's how he felt all along. Maybe it was just political calculus. Either way, once democrats knew they could embrace the issue and not risk being voted out of office, they fell in line.

Had a Republican been president, they could not have embraced marriage equality no matter what the majority of states were doing because it would have cost them the next election. Their base would have been enraged.

A democratic presidency leaves the ground fertile for progressive growth. A Republican presidency salts the earth.

And I always have to mention the supreme court. A Republican victory this time means we lose our chance at having a progressive majority court for decades. And we allow a republican majority to restock the dozens of federal judges whose positions have been unfilled by a republican senate.

The only way having a Republican in power benefits the far left is that a few more people will show up for our marches. Positive progressive change? We'd have to wait for it, wait for it.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:38 PM on July 31, 2016 [83 favorites]

I think Leftists think they're right and centrists are wrong, and that a fair process would prove that and make centrists go away.
posted by argybarg at 1:39 PM on July 31, 2016 [12 favorites]

I think it's useful for Democrats, who are presumably trying to convince holdouts on the left, to openly acknowledge this as a way of understanding why some people may be resistant, and as a way of bridging the gap.

It is so nice to feel wanted, is it not? To be pursued, to be wooed, to be chased and to be loved!
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 1:40 PM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

I feel like I need to prepare a brief rebuttal for every false or misleading charge against Hillary...

I would like to find the best, most comprehensive rebuttal list online. Any suggestions?

If you're talking about canvassing or phonebanking people with whom you don't already have some kind of personal connection, you not only don't need this, you don't really want it.

Getting sucked into a policy debate in that situation is a fool's errand-- it's a bunch of unproductive arguing that wastes everybody's time, and changes no-one's mind.

You're much better off acknowledging the person's concerns (genuinely--so that they feel not just listened to, but heard), then pivoting to why you, personally support the candidate.

It helps a lot to practice your personal story of support enough that you feel comfortable telling it, but not so much that you memorize it word-for-word. That way, when you have these conversations you can allow them to flow more naturally.

It can also help to have some variations on your personal story that are relevant to the concerns expressed by the person you're talking to. For example, when I was canvassing, phonebanking, and meeting with potential volunteers in Oregon in 2012, I encountered tons of left/progressive folks who were angry about the Affordable Care Act because they wanted single-payer, and felt the President had betrayed them by not pushing for it. Rather than try to argue with them about the feasibility of getting such a law passed, and whether the President had or had not sold them out to the insurance companies, my response was something like this:

"I know--I really wish we could have gotten single payer too--and I suspect so does President Obama. But one of the reasons I'm supporting the President this year is because my dad's about to retire. He'll need insurance to supplement his medicare, but he's had cancer twice. Because of Obamacare, insurance companies aren't allowed to refuse to cover him just because of his pre-existing conditions."

This doesn't always work, but it works a lot better than an argument, and has the added benefit that people will be much nicer to you--even if they deeply disagree--if you personalize the connection.
posted by dersins at 1:40 PM on July 31, 2016 [30 favorites]

I have voted in EVERY election, general, primary and local, since I have been eligible to do so (except for the '84 November election because my mother died suddenly in another city and I had to travel before I could visit the polling place; after that, I've voted by mail whenever allowed to). I'm not bragging, but I have zero respect for the "don't vote, it only encourages them" argument. And if you only count only the main elections, my record for backing winners for all offices is well over 50%. But that's because I've grown pretty liberal and lived in mostly Democrat-dominated areas where third-party candidates rarely tread. The primaries are another story. In open and party-dependent primaries (after my Republican Activist mother died, I decided it was safe to register as a Democrat), my experience has been far more often for my First Choice Candidate to not make it to the Finals. But I vote. Because I can.

I'm now living in one of California's most "purple" areas, where the state legislators are more often Republican and the long-time Democrat congresswoman has retired and there's serious battle for her replacement. If "California's 24th" turns Red, I'll be almost as saddened as if Dishonest Don wins.

I don't think the Democrats ever have won a "lesser of two evils election."
But this election has a Republican who has enthusiastically embraced Evil in all its forms. Have I mentioned that I KNEW somebody who Trump cheated out of thousands of dollars over 25 years ago?
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:41 PM on July 31, 2016 [14 favorites]

Whew, I just bit the bullet and made a few calls. My first two I couldn't reach, but the third one was very positive and gave me her email address to give her more information about volunteering for Hillary! Woo!
posted by peacheater at 1:48 PM on July 31, 2016 [59 favorites]

It is so nice to feel wanted, is it not? To be pursued, to be wooed, to be chased and to be loved!

I'm confused. Are you genuinely interested in winning over holdouts on the left to vote for Clinton, or not? My point was to offer some information that may be useful for making a successful bid for some of those votes from people who have been turned off by the lesser of two evils argument in the past. I'm exactly the sort of person you're looking to convince, and indeed, I've been convinced. So why are you mocking that?
posted by the return of the thin white sock at 1:49 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

despite her bending over backwards to accommodate my wishes

It's great that Hillary broadcast a lot of progressive ideas at the D convention -- debt-free college, expanding SS, etc. But I think she only had two concrete actions she could take pre-election to build trust with the Sanders/Warren wing: (1) VP nom, (2) helping kill the TPP.

She's blowing both of them, which is hardly bending over backwards in my book.

These aren't small items, they're directly related to the "centrist" economic policies which depress living standards for the majority of Americans and have given rise to right wing populist authoritarianism in the form of Trump.
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 1:50 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

So you want centrism eliminated from the Democratic party?
posted by argybarg at 1:53 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm confused. Are you genuinely interested in winning over holdouts on the left to vote for Clinton, or not?

I'm genuinely interested in having conversations with people interested in that. I'm also interested in calling people out (on Facebook, in real life, anywhere) who relentlessly, needlessly, endlessly make it about their needs over the needs of people who have actual skin in the game.

If you don't like my eye-rolling, then read Chomsky's thoughts (this has probably already posted, but if not, here's my contribution).
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 1:55 PM on July 31, 2016 [8 favorites]

A national party has to accommodate a lot of viewpoints. So does a democratic nation. What about this do people not understand?
posted by argybarg at 1:55 PM on July 31, 2016 [11 favorites]

Ever since both Sanders and Warren endorsed Clinton and spoke for her at the convention, it is NOT "the Sanders/Warren wing" anymore. Unless you believe both long-experienced political activists were 'suckered'.

Just because the politicians themselves have vouched for Clinton, that doesn't mean they'll support her proposals and actions in lockstep once she's elected. And the people who support those politicians are still out there. There can always be future progressive Democrats who will dissent, and thus that wing can be renamed accordingly.
posted by Apocryphon at 1:58 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Kaine requested that Yellen exempt regional banks and credit unions/community banks from some of the regulations that the big national banks are under, in terms of reporting daily liquidity and so on.

To come all the way back to this point... the largest credit union in America by assets is Navy Federal. $58.1B.

The 34th largest bank in the US by assets is Zions. If you look at the list, you find that the banks in this part of the list are mostly regionals, with some European banks' American toeholds mixed in (e.g. BBVA Compass, Deutschebank).

Most of the banks in this part of the list weren't ones that caused the 2008 debacle, tho they did have their own role in creating and selling mortgages up to Countrywide and others.

I don't think Kaine was wrong in pushing for keeping the smaller banks and the credit unions from regulations aimed at the "too big to fail" crowd. They're just different in their market and appeal. How Zions runs itself is very different from how JPMC runs itself.
posted by dw at 2:03 PM on July 31, 2016 [7 favorites]

It's great that Hillary broadcast a lot of progressive ideas at the D convention -- debt-free college, expanding SS, etc. But I think she only had two concrete actions she could take pre-election to build trust with the Sanders/Warren wing: (1) VP nom, (2) helping kill the TPP.

This seems more like a refusal to be budged than it does staking out a real position.

1. What VP pick would satisfy the "Sanders/Warren wing?" Sanders and Warren didn't want it. Sherrod Brown and Corey Booker have Republican governors who would name Republicans to replace them in the senate, Castro is under investigation, and and and and and. Seriously, who could Clinton realistically have selected that would satisfy these hypothetical people?

2. Clinton does not currently hold a government position of any sort. How could she possibly help kill the TPP, other than through public statements that she does not support it? Which, of course, is a thing that she actually did.
posted by dersins at 2:04 PM on July 31, 2016 [46 favorites]

The VP pick is all fluff. More interesting is who she'll appoint to cabinet.
posted by Apocryphon at 2:06 PM on July 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

If you don't like my eye-rolling, then read Chomsky's thoughts (this has probably already posted, but if not, here's my contribution).

Chomsky's arguments are among those that helped convince me.

I'm genuinely interested in having conversations with people interested in that. I'm also interested in calling people out (on Facebook, in real life, anywhere) who relentlessly, needlessly, endlessly make it about their needs over the needs of people who have actual skin in the game.

You seem to have confused me with someone else? I'm not talking about "making it about my needs." I'm offering a data point as to how you can win the argument with people who are open to the conversation but who perhaps aren't quite convinced yet. Many of those people, like me, have a knee-jerk reaction against the "lesser of two evils" argument, not because it hurts our precious widdle feelings but because it's been used for decades. Acknowledging that -- exactly as kyrademon does here -- is going to help you get more votes for Hillary Clinton.
posted by the return of the thin white sock at 2:06 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

I won't say it's easy to get on the ballot here in WA but it's not particularly hard. My ballot had a Libertarian for nearly every office. My ballot had no Greens. My district is very liberal by national standards.

Remember that in WA there's no party registration or affiliation for non-presidential elections; everything is "prefers X party."

The fact the Greens have been so scarce on the WA ballots really is puzzling given the Libertarians always having people lined up for the major state offices. And their utter silence in this state is damning given the long, long history of environmentalism in the Puget Sound area.
posted by dw at 2:08 PM on July 31, 2016 [9 favorites]

I think political reconciliation would be a hell of a lot easier if democracy consisted of more than just voting. Benjamin Barber has some important ideas on the subject.
posted by argybarg at 2:13 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

1. What VP pick would satisfy the "Sanders/Warren wing?" ... Warren didn't want it.

I hadn't read that about Warren, how do you know? Tom Perez, Labor Sec. was another progressive option. Hillary went for the economically conservative wing of the D party instead.

2. Clinton does not currently hold a government position of any sort. How could she possibly help kill the TPP

Promoting one of the few D Senators to VP who voted to fast-track the TPP is itself a pro-TPP signal. The Cllnton appttees to the D Platform Committee all voted to strip language specifically opposing the TPP from the party platform, and Clinton only made general comments about trade in her speech at the convention.
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 2:14 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

Anyway, I have no idea what everyone is suddenly fighting about, but geez people, you can be critical of a candidate and still support them. Could we all just take a few deep breaths and not act like each other is the enemy? It's getting awfully Captain America: Civil War in here.
posted by dw at 2:15 PM on July 31, 2016 [7 favorites]

Well I'm not running for President, so I doubt I'll get more votes one way or the other.

The fact of the matter is, some people really, really, really need their egos stroked in order to get them to vote for the candidate that helps further propel their goals. It's okay to acknowledge that that is stupid and sucks, while also still stroking their ego.

We're into the 1,000+ comments part of the thread, so what we say here isn't going to affect too much. We're largely venting at each now. I just wish that people who said "what is the [x party] going to do to earn MY vote!" would say instead "what actionable thing can I do to further advance the change I want to see in the world."
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 2:16 PM on July 31, 2016 [11 favorites]

The VP pick is all fluff. More interesting is who she'll appoint to cabinet.

VPs have been integral, cabinet-level positions in recent admins. The VP is second in line for POTUS, and kaine's young enough to be Hillary Clinton's successor.

It was a big deal to nominate an economically conservative Democrat for this position, it shouldn't be white washed.
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 2:16 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

airing nerdy laundry:

Tim Kaine's voting and policy statements put him squarely in the center of the Democratic party. Explain to me why this is bad or inappropriate?
posted by argybarg at 2:19 PM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

It's getting awfully Captain America: Civil War in here.

Dibs on the guy with the metal arm.
posted by Salieri at 2:22 PM on July 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

Are you genuinely interested in winning over holdouts on the left to vote for Clinton, or not?

If that were possible I would be interested in it but at this point I think the holdouts on the left are mostly unreachable through persuasion. They may come around in the voting booth when presented with the real possibility of a Trump presidency but argumentation is not going to do it.
posted by Justinian at 2:23 PM on July 31, 2016 [14 favorites]

To me, the Kaine appointment is pure political calculus.

Tim Kaine has an appeal to the kind of centrist who might lean Republican in another year, but dislikes Donald Trump - he seems like a genuinely nice guy. He is from Virginia, which is a crucial swing state.

Here is another place where I feel that the focus on holding Democrats feet to the fire by the left is misguided - Clinton would have been far more likely to pick a left-wing VP if she could be sure of the votes of former Bernie supporters. In the absence of such support, she has to appeal to moderates and centrists - those votes have to come from somewhere, and she is like me, probably more concerned about winning in November than anything else.
posted by peacheater at 2:24 PM on July 31, 2016 [19 favorites]

they're directly related to the "centrist" economic policies which depress living standards for the majority of Americans and have given rise to right wing populist authoritarianism in the form of Trump.

While centrist economic policies didn't help matters, it's way too reductive to say they're directly related to the rise of right wing populist authoritarianism. Racism and nativism have come up in the US well before Trump decided to run for president and way before the era of globalization. In the past, a lot of policy harmful to immigrants and minorities were passed, but they were always framed as attempts to restore "economic fairness" to American workers.
posted by FJT at 2:27 PM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

She may also be a centrist, or at least closer to the center than Bernie's voters. That describes me, too. There are also lots of Democratic voters to her right, and Democratic voters who hold a variety of positions a variety of issues.

This idea that only Bernie's voters need to be catered to is wrong-headed. And this idea that finding a way to represent multiple groups in a coalition is tantamount to evil? Also wrong-headed.
posted by argybarg at 2:27 PM on July 31, 2016 [28 favorites]

Tim Kaine's voting and policy statements put him squarely in the center of the Democratic party.

With the TPP fast track vote Kaine was one of 13 D Senators, with not signing Sherrod Brown's letter on curbing predatory payday lending he was one of 13 D Senators, with being friendly to "right to work"/anti-union laws as governor he was in a tiny minority of D governors...

I believe he's in the conservative wing of the D Party economically speaking, and holds dangerously centrist economic ideas, ones that lead to right wing populism.
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 2:28 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

dangerously centrist

This is just I can't even
posted by dersins at 2:29 PM on July 31, 2016 [62 favorites]

dangerously centrist

There it is in a nutshell.
posted by argybarg at 2:31 PM on July 31, 2016 [14 favorites]

So in other words, the Democratic party must be ideologically pure, since anything to the right of you "lead[s] to right wing populism."
posted by argybarg at 2:31 PM on July 31, 2016 [10 favorites]

Hey, gotta watch out for those extremist moderates.
posted by dersins at 2:34 PM on July 31, 2016 [20 favorites]

airing nerdy laundry - are you talking about this payday lending letter or is there a different one?
posted by macfly at 2:35 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

and holds dangerously centrist economic ideas, ones that lead to rising right wing populism.

What led to rising rightwing populism is the Republican Party going for the Southern Strategy post CRA with Nixon and know-nothing/anti-government with Reagan. You can try to blame Clinton/Obama all you want but ultimately the blame for racist fascists lies with the racist fascists. As I said earlier, elections and policies are won with politicians and legislation that gets the majority of the vote. None of your dream ideal policies has come close for decades. The fact that Dems fought hard with a less left focus and finally won enough to advance to the ball a little bit doesn't make them evil or make them to blame for fascism. It makes them people who did their best against a much more conservative electorate to move forward.
posted by chris24 at 2:35 PM on July 31, 2016 [19 favorites]

It was always going to be Kaine:

People close to Clinton were telling me, as early as February, that there really wasn’t anyone else on their short list. The main reason Clinton chose Kaine is so simple as to be unbelievable: She thinks he could serve as president if she can’t, and didn’t think anyone else she talked to fit that criterion.

posted by kirkaracha at 2:37 PM on July 31, 2016 [27 favorites]

What is the deal with Tim Kaine and "Dad"?
posted by maurreen at 2:38 PM on July 31, 2016

You know that old parody of a conservative that has largely come true, that they stood astride the path of history with one hand raised, shouting "STOP!"? I begin to wonder if it's not true of the far Left, as well.

Yes, the evolution of global trade has fucked a lot of jobs and living standards in American towns that used to employ a lot of people with manufacturing jobs, etc. But I have trouble viewing this as the direct, causal result of a trade deal, or even a series of trade deals. The farther back you step, as an armchair historian (or professional, as the case may be; I don't know you and the internet is vast), the more these things begin to look like forces of nature, IME. And you don't fight a force of nature. You try to adapt to it, and save as many people as you can along the way.

This is not to say there aren't horrific provisions in the TPP -- if what I read on the internet is true (come the fuck on, I haven't read the thing), they are INDEED horrific -- but it is to say that we should be much more clear what we're fighting for when we oppose those provisions.

Are you agitating for a return to the past? Sorry, that's not going to happen, and you look ridiculous doing it. Meanwhile you're sabotaging the only people with political power who might be inclined to help you.

Or are you agitating for a more fair future? That is more interesting to me, and a lot harder to pin down. But I'd like to hear what that looks like, so long as it accepts the forces of nature as they are.

(As it happens, this is one of the main reasons I love HRC. She doesn't have the luxury of getting wrapped up in what might have been, so she doesn't. She deals with the world as it is, and tries to move forward.)
posted by schadenfrau at 2:39 PM on July 31, 2016 [24 favorites]

Tim Kaine is America's dad now
posted by yasaman at 2:40 PM on July 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

What led to rising rightwing populism is the Republican Party going for the Southern Strategy post CRA the Southern Strategy post CRA with Nixon

That was many decades ago, which doesn't explain Trump's rise in 2016, nor why right wing populism is ascendent across half a dozen countries in Europe. Poor economic conditions have to be front and center, as well as the failed economic policies that have enjoyed consensus support.

This lack of seriousness about understanding and combatting right wing populism is disturbing.
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 2:41 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

We're too busy fighting those militant moderates.
posted by dersins at 2:42 PM on July 31, 2016 [11 favorites]

but because the Kremlin has wound up a propaganda machine it cannot stop.

Why does that sound so familiar?

sorry that was from the 'Russian expert' part of the thread. It - there are a lot of words in here.
posted by petebest at 2:42 PM on July 31, 2016

I believe he's in the conservative wing of the D Party economically speaking, and holds dangerously centrist economic ideas, ones that lead to right wing populism.

Tim Kaine's Ratings, some highlights:
Planned Parenthood Action Fund 100%
National Rifle Association 7%
AFL-CIO 100%
Family Research Council 0%
NAACP 96%
posted by PenDevil at 2:43 PM on July 31, 2016 [32 favorites]

Hillary Clinton giving Tim Kaine her milkshake order at Grandpa's Cheese Barn on bus tour Ashland Ohio

Now I really want a milkshake and cheese.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:43 PM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

But it's true, if the Democratic candidates aren't ideologically pure, the True Populists will themselves turn to the Right Wing Populists, right?

Sanders and Warren know they could continue have influence on the Clinton Administration after the election. Unless it becomes clear that they failed to bring their followers with you. So keep Raging Against the Machine, folks, you'll either get Full Trump or a Clinton who doesn't have to care about you anymore.
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:43 PM on July 31, 2016

This lack of seriousness about understanding and combatting right wing populism is disturbing.

You're the person dismissing racism and the Republicans' original sin the Southern Strategy as the driving factor of Trump's appeal, but we're unserious?
posted by chris24 at 2:44 PM on July 31, 2016 [14 favorites]

accepts the forces of nature as they are.

If there's one idea in economics that's IMO more pernicious than any other it's that our current economic conditions are the result of "laws of nature" that are immutable.

We designed this system, it's been significantly different in the very recent past in America and it's currently different in other countries. All it takes to change it is some awareness and effort, and I think America's youth and growing immigrant population will change it.
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 2:45 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Right on, peacheater!! Glad you made the leap.

Anyone else on the thread going to phone bank?? Super easy! Go to http://hillaryclinton.com/calls and log in. The info and scripts are all there, all you need is a computer and a phone.
posted by Sublimity at 2:45 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

This lack of seriousness about understanding and combatting right wing populism is disturbing.

What plan to "combat right wing populism" doesn't begin with defeating the right wing populists in November?
posted by peacheater at 2:45 PM on July 31, 2016 [52 favorites]

Here is another place where I feel that the focus on holding Democrats feet to the fire by the left is misguided - Clinton would have been far more likely to pick a left-wing VP if she could be sure of the votes of former Bernie supporters. In the absence of such support, she has to appeal to moderates and centrists

Feeling this. Clinton is known for listening, and what the Buster bloc has screamed at her is that there is no way for her to win them over. Well, she still intends to win this election. (and I know that fact alone is part of why some people hate her)

She's going to play for the votes that she can get, and those are in the center. The Busters in my life don't seem to grasp that she isn't running to be President of Portland, but of the entire United States. Coalition building is compromise defined. This is a big damn country. No one gets elected nationally without a diverse coalition, and idealogical purity demands make coalition building needlessly difficult. Centrism is not a dirty word, even if the hard left uses it that way. Just like "liberal" is not a dirty word, no matter how the hard right sneers it.
posted by EatTheWeek at 2:45 PM on July 31, 2016 [35 favorites]

She thinks he could serve as president if she can’t, and didn’t think anyone else she talked to fit that criterion.

I feel like I've stepped into a specific episode of The West Wing.
posted by Francis at 2:46 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

Hillary Clinton giving Tim Kaine her milkshake order at Grandpa's Cheese Barn on bus tour Ashland Ohio

Dad, make sure you get the one with the bendy straw!
posted by zachlipton at 2:46 PM on July 31, 2016

Thanks Sublimity. I'm not able to reach most callers, but just had a great interaction with another guy who seemed super grateful that I called him and a very enthusiastic Clinton supporter. He was just like, tell me what to do, I'll do it. I'm telling everyone around me the only way forward is to vote Clinton etc. etc. Try making some calls, so far the water's fine.
posted by peacheater at 2:47 PM on July 31, 2016 [10 favorites]

You're the person dismissing racism

Nobody's dismissing racism, it's just that the combo of blaming racial minorities and foreigners for poor economic conditions should be obvious. These basic elements of xenophobic right wing populism have been on repeat throughout history and are currently playing simultaneously across multiple countries.

It's the centrist apologists here who are denying the symbiosis.
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 2:48 PM on July 31, 2016

If improving economic conditions for the average citizen is unimportant, Trump or a successor of his will surely come up with a bread-and-circuses substitute for genuine economic prosperity. That's one way the Ukraine conflict is working for his buddy-not-buddy Putin.
posted by XMLicious at 2:49 PM on July 31, 2016

What is the deal with Tim Kaine and "Dad"?

Tim Kaine is Dad. He tells Dad jokes, does Dad things, embarasses you in Dad ways. He is a man who you want to be your father.
posted by Talez at 2:49 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

Peacheater, that's pretty much what happened to me. Lots of people don't pick up an unfamiliar number, so I left lots of voice mails--very easy, no pushback there. The few people who did pick up were kind and happy and willing to volunteer.

Definitely encourage folks who aren't sure about it to just try it. You can do it... Yes you can!
posted by Sublimity at 2:50 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

I can't tell whether concern trolling replaces "bargaining" or "depression" in the Five Stages of Internet Political Grief. Probably not depression, at least not for Democrats.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 2:51 PM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's the centrist apologists here who are denying the symbiosis.

omg, I'm dying here...
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 2:51 PM on July 31, 2016 [12 favorites]

Nobody's dismissing racism, it's just that the combo of blaming racial minorities and foreigners for poor economic conditions should be obvious. These basic elements of xenophobic right wing populism have been on repeat throughout history and are currently playing simultaneously across multiple countries.

It's the centrist apologists here who are denying the symbiosis.

As one of the "centrist apologists" here, I am not in any way denying that the two are linked.

I just don't happen to think our economic situation would be in any way improved by having Trump as President. Since I believe the economy would be better under Clinton, that poor people would suffer less under Clinton, that the economy would be fairer under Clinton, I believe that electing her would reduce right-wing populism (which I agree is linked to economic conditions).
posted by peacheater at 2:52 PM on July 31, 2016 [14 favorites]

What is the deal with Tim Kaine and "Dad"?

He just came across as a stereotypical "dad" character. John Oliver thinks so, and a lot of us picked up the same vibe in the DNC threads.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:53 PM on July 31, 2016

Dammit Talez!
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 2:54 PM on July 31, 2016

It's the centrist apologists here who are denying the symbiosis.

Pretty sure we had a Republican in '64 and an Independent in '68 running racially charged campaigns prior to large scale adoption of neoliberal policies.
posted by chris24 at 2:54 PM on July 31, 2016 [8 favorites]

Not a parody, schadenfrau! In 1955, conservatism (or National Review—same diff then) stands athwart history, yelling Stop.
posted by dogrose at 2:58 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

From January. Gallup:

% of Americans that identify as conservative: 37%
% of Americans that identify as moderate: 35%
% of Americans that identify as liberal: 24%

Help me understand any model that will allow a liberal leaning government to exist that doesn't involve strong compromises with moderates? When moderates and liberals split, its an easy win for the conservatives.

I know from past experience that math arguments tend to be dismissed by the far left and far right. Elections come down to numbers in the end. Moderates plus liberals beat conservatives. Liberals on their own lose.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:01 PM on July 31, 2016 [38 favorites]

1. What VP pick would satisfy the "Sanders/Warren wing?" ... Warren didn't want it.

I hadn't read that about Warren, how do you know? Tom Perez, Labor Sec. was another progressive option. Hillary went for the economically conservative wing of the D party instead.

She said it multiple times. (I could get into a tangent on overriding the wishes of a woman by not listening to her, but...) Plus, everyone who kept calling for her to be VP pick is blitheringly ignorant of MA state politics. Making Warren a VP pick would have been a great way to lose a Senate seat. (MA's governor is currently Republican. And barring that, we're the state that elected Scott fucking Brown to Ted Kennedy's seat because the MassDems are morons that keep pushing Coakley, who no one around the city actually likes.)
posted by ultranos at 3:01 PM on July 31, 2016 [20 favorites]

More Tim Kaine dad references because America needs them.
posted by Talez at 3:02 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Apparently the dream is not forming a coalition with centrists and moderates, it's wiping them off the map (or, more pleasantly, converting them all to pure leftism). Then, and only then, can we move on to clearing out the conservatives.

This is just pure solipsism and entitlement, for the record. Feel free to hold leftist views and hold to them passionately, but seeing "dangerous centrists" and "centrist apologists" as the real enemy shows a real misunderstanding of how large-scale democracy works.
posted by argybarg at 3:10 PM on July 31, 2016 [45 favorites]

but seeing "dangerous centrists" and "centrist apologists" as the real enemy shows a real misunderstanding of how large-scale democracy works.

I thought it was all about whoever was most passionate determined by who is willing to piss off the most people by being an obstructionist twit in support of their goal despite more people wanting something else. At least that's what people were implying last week.
posted by Talez at 3:15 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yeah, we are honestly a long way away from having left-wing views be mainstream in American political discourse. Scratch the surface of most Americans, and you will find fairly toxic views towards working people. I live in one of the most liberal parts of one of the most liberal states of the union and I am constantly amazed at some of the conversations I have: everyone is so concerned about their taxes and "wasteful government spending". Republicans have very effectively employed tactics of divide-and-conquer - everyone's too busy talking about how much money MBTA employees make to think about putting money into infrastructure or increasing taxes on the 1%.
posted by peacheater at 3:15 PM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

I think the holdouts on the left are mostly unreachable through persuasion.

But I was a holdout until very recently. I became open to persuasion primarily by a series of conversations with a very centrist Democrat. We both disagree with each other on a lot (and have for many years; when we first met decades ago, he was a Reagan Republican), but we both have the utmost respect for each other. That's where the conversation started.

The result is that I'm now voting for Clinton, and a week ago I wasn't. My comments were made in the spirit of helping convince other holdouts where possible, because I assumed that's an objective. It is, isn't it? Plenty of people in this (and other threads) have made it clear that they want to be open and respectful in reaching out to Republicans who are open to being convinced by figuring out where the terms of those conversations need to start from. I was under the impression that the same people might be interested in also doing that with people who are open to being convinced on the left (particularly those, like me, who were appalled by the BoB'ers antics at the convention).

Seriously, I've been won over, and I was even feeling rather enthusiastic about it till I commented here. Being mocked and dismissed by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates isn't going to change my vote in November, and it won't change my decision to try to convince others like me in the meantime, but I would suggest that deriding people who've actually come over to your side isn't a great way to, you know, maximize the number of people who come over to your side.
posted by the return of the thin white sock at 3:17 PM on July 31, 2016 [40 favorites]

Jeb Bush: This is so incredibly disrespectful of a family that endured the ultimate sacrifice for our country.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 3:19 PM on July 31, 2016 [15 favorites]

Dibs on the guy with the metal arm.

I don't know, I'm pretty sure he's a Russian plant.
posted by dinty_moore at 3:19 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't know, I'm pretty sure he's a Russian plant.

No. That's the guy with the terrible toupee.
posted by Talez at 3:20 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

the return of the thin white sock: Thanks for your comment. Maybe I'm being too pessimistic about the odds of persuading people because I mostly interact with the most vocal of anti-Clinton leftists. Who are likely going to skew unpersuadable. It's good to remember there are undecided left-leaning people out there who aren't in the Redditesque BoB camp.
posted by Justinian at 3:23 PM on July 31, 2016 [8 favorites]

I love that the first two tweets in response to Jeb!'s are a guy asking "What are you doing tonight?" and "Want to get tacos?". Jeb! has to find something to fill his time now that he isn't spending $150million to win 3 delegates.
posted by Justinian at 3:24 PM on July 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

the return of the thin white sock, thanks for your contributions to this thread and I hope you can forgive me if I have been derisive to you or others in a similar position.
posted by peacheater at 3:26 PM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm pessimistic because I think this whole disastrous election cycle has come of people gradually losing the notion that democracy consists of anything less than getting everything you want. This feels like a petulant nation having a consumerist temper tantrum and dressing it up as pious concerns.

I have no respect left for those who do not engage in the difficult work of building consensus and getting the details right. The rest is noise.
posted by argybarg at 3:26 PM on July 31, 2016 [19 favorites]

Just in general, though - my experience with military folks who need to do mental calculus to figure out if someone is in an in-group or an out-group before reacting - being military is essentially (sorry) a trump card. Race and religion start mattering a lot less if they're military. Between this, Donald Trump's trumpishness about international matters/POWs/'losing', I'm wondering if the military is going to start skewing heavily towards Clinton.
posted by dinty_moore at 3:27 PM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

Won't someone think of the poor centrists, pushed out of the D Party by leftist purists?

Good grief, argybarg, you have nearly the entire leadership of the D party representing you.

Some on the Warren/Sanders wing wanted to be represented on the D ticket, which is pretty normal when there's a primary challenge as successful as Sanders's, but Hillary picked someone equally economically conservative or maybe even moreso.

Can you distinguish this situation from throwing a "temper tantrum" about "getting anything less than everything you want"?
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 3:37 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Some examples of it being "pretty normal" to put someone like your challenger on the ticket? Should be easy if its normal.
posted by Justinian at 3:40 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

Hey, so, it looks to me like there's been virtually no response to the pro-Trump New York Post's publication of the Melania Trump modeling photos. Has that been all of your experience so far? I've been waiting to see it pop up somewhere in my social media so I can drop in "I won't ever vote for Trump, but good for Melania for having a successful modeling career" comment but so far I've seen nothing positive or negative. Anyone else see any responses?
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:41 PM on July 31, 2016

I don't recall Hillary Clinton supporters demanding that she be VP when she lost the 2008 primary by a far smaller margin than Sanders did.
posted by peacheater at 3:42 PM on July 31, 2016 [14 favorites]

Reid Statement on Republican Leaders’ Failure to Revoke their Endorsement of Donald Trump

Nevada Senator Harry Reid released the following statement on the cowardice of Senator McConnell’s and Speaker Ryan’s failure to revoke their endorsements of Donald Trump:

“Senator McConnell and Speaker Ryan approvingly spoke at Donald Trump’s convention, endorsed Donald Trump for president and believe he is mentally fit to sit in the Oval Office. Occasional statements that do nothing to repudiate Donald Trump’s words and actions are spineless. Anything short of revoking their endorsements is cowardice.

“It took less than two days for Senator McConnell to call for then-Rep. Todd Akin to end his Senate campaign citing Akin’s ‘deeply offensive error at a time when his candidacy carries great consequence for the future of our country.’ Donald Trump’s candidacy carries even greater consequence, yet Senator McConnell remains silent.

“This shouldn’t be hard. Donald Trump is a sexist and racist man who insults Gold Star parents, stokes fear of Muslims and sows hatred of Latinos. He should not be president and Republican leaders have a moral responsibility to say so‎.”

Remember, this guy was a prizefighter. He definitely knows how to come out swinging.
posted by zombieflanders at 3:42 PM on July 31, 2016 [62 favorites]

I've seen some tweets from my feminist circles calling out the NYPost for essentially slut-shaming Melania.
posted by dw at 3:43 PM on July 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

McConnell and Ryan both repudiated Trump’s words against the Khans; both continue to endorse him.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:45 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

I was under the impression that Trump had had the NYPost publish that article to get the focus off his awful behavior re: the Khans.
posted by stolyarova at 3:46 PM on July 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

I've seen some tweets from my feminist circles calling out the NYPost for essentially slut-shaming Melania.

I think this is the best progressive response. Coming to her defense defuses the inevitable "see liberals are just as bad" response from TrumpCo.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:46 PM on July 31, 2016 [7 favorites]

Yep, I've seen nothing negative about Melania. A mix of "So what?", "Good for her", and "What's Trump up to now?"
posted by stolyarova at 3:47 PM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

I don't recall Hillary Clinton supporters demanding that she be VP when she lost the 2008 primary by a far smaller margin than Sanders did.

Oh, they totally did. The thing is that Clinton conceded before Bernie sort of did, and far more definitively. So there were nearly three months of grieving and bargaining before the convention started. We didn't have that this year.
posted by dinty_moore at 3:47 PM on July 31, 2016 [7 favorites]

Tim Kaine is not a conservative Democrat. This was not Al Gore picking Joe Lieberman.

The strong impression I'm hearing is not "I wish Kaine were more of a lefty, that would have pleased me." It's that Clinton delivered the final insult to Sanders supporters by picking a centrist, and that centrists are the real danger. Therefore Kaine, and therefore Clinton, should be regarded as unacceptable to any correctly-thinking progressive.

And my point is that Clinton has a huge party to please, and a huge nation to make her case to. I also think she has a responsibility to pick someone she wants to work with, and who she thinks would make a good president. I think any one of the above concerns, let along all together, rightly outweighs making sure Sanders' supporters get their candidate.
posted by argybarg at 3:48 PM on July 31, 2016 [22 favorites]

Trump Adviser Defends Nude Photos of Melania — And He Isn’t Wrong:

Trump and Miller are right to issue what’s basically a shruggie emoji as an official statement. Using nude photos to shame another person is crass and tacky, and in the case of revenge porn, an online scourge; using photos of Melania to try and shame her husband by proxy is even worse, as if whatever she's done in her life reflects on her husband.

posted by kirkaracha at 3:48 PM on July 31, 2016 [8 favorites]

McConnell and Ryan both repudiated Trump’s words against the Khans; both continue to endorse him.

Then it's no repudiation at all.
posted by zombieflanders at 3:49 PM on July 31, 2016 [7 favorites]

To be fair, corn ice cream is delicious.
posted by stolyarova at 3:50 PM on July 31, 2016 [8 favorites]

A journalist (Brian Stelter) finally taking Trump's campaign to task.

STELTER: That's not what Mr. Khan's speech was about on Thursday. Let me put on screen a statement from Mr. Trump last night. He seemed to be trying to clean up the ABC interview. In the statement last night, Trump said the following: He said that "Mr. Khan has no right to speak the way he did on stage." Let me get the exact quote, because I don't want to misquote Mr. Trump. Let's see if we can put it on the screen here. He said that, Mr. Trump, "while I feel deeply for the loss of his son, Mr. Khan who has never met me has no right to stand in front of millions of people and claim that I have never read the Constitution, which is false and say many other inaccurate things." The First Amendment to the Constitution allows Mr. Khan the right to stand on stage and say whatever he wants. Why would Mr. Trump say he doesn't have that right.

MILLER: That's not what Mr. Trump is saying at all.

STELTER: That's what the statement said.

It just got better from there. A journalist actually looked into his pants and found he had some cajones after all.
posted by Talez at 3:51 PM on July 31, 2016 [42 favorites]

I think ignoring it is probably the best revenge.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 3:53 PM on July 31, 2016

Trump is saying so many awful and crazy things that at this point the media can't keep up. It's surreal. The Ukraine comment alone would sink any other candidate and its not even the worst thing he said in the last two days.
posted by Justinian at 3:54 PM on July 31, 2016 [15 favorites]

Whoops my last comment was in reference to something 100 comments ago but also probably good advice for all comments.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 3:54 PM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

Since the dawn of the modern primary system in 1972, here are all the times in which a major party ticket consisted of the top two presidential candidates in delegates from that year's primaries:

1980 -- Reagan/Bush
2004 -- Kerry/Edwards

In both cases, the VP was a distant second. Reagan won 44 states and territories. Kerry won 51.
posted by dw at 3:55 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

Tim Kaine is not a conservative Democrat.

I didn't see your link supporting that:

Kaine scores an average of -37 (-100 is the most liberal, and 100 is the most conservative).

Whatever the exact metric, it looks like he scored more conservative than the average D.
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 3:56 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Ukraine comment alone would sink any other candidate and its not even the worst thing he said in the last two days.

"He's not going into Ukraine, OK, just so you understand. He's not going to go into Ukraine, all right? You can mark it down. You can put it down. You can take it anywhere you want," Trump said in an interview with ABC's George Stephanopoulos on "This Week."

"Well, he's already there, isn't he?" Stephanopoulos responded, in a reference to Crimea, which Putin took from Ukraine in early 2014.

Looks like Stephanopoulos stumped the Trump.
posted by Talez at 3:57 PM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

Since the dawn of the modern primary system in 1972, here are all the times in which a major party ticket consisted of the top two presidential candidates in delegates from that year's primaries:

I was trying to use a Socratic question to lead him to conclude for himself that no it is not, in fact, normal to put your opponent or his (and until now it was always his!) ideological equivalent on your ticket. But this works too!
posted by Justinian at 4:00 PM on July 31, 2016

Dear Mr. Trump:

I feel you should be aware that some asshole is signing your name to stupid letters. 

Very truly yours,

The National Football League

posted by kirkaracha at 4:03 PM on July 31, 2016 [10 favorites]

I do not look at this image and see it as showing Tim Kaine as a conservative Democrat.

But let's say he is. Fiscally conservative Democrats are also part of the party.
posted by argybarg at 4:04 PM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

shit merchants are still just giving us normal people shit to choose from

This is the attitude that's so frustrating to me. It wasn't "shit merchants" or "the elite" or Debbie Wasserman Schultz who selected Clinton as the Democratic nominee. It was Democratic voters, especially voters of color (it is my understanding that Sanders would've narrowly one has only white people's votes been counted). Some of us Democrats genuinely like Clinton, and there are more of us than there are Democrats who don't like her.

Like Sanders delegates who were chanted-over during Hillary's speech. They weren't being silenced by "The Man" or the Party Machine. They weren't being silenced at all. But other people's voices were also being heard, and there happened to be more of them. That's how democracy works. The fact that you lost doesn't necessarily mean the game was rigged.
posted by OnceUponATime at 4:06 PM on July 31, 2016 [66 favorites]

National Journal Liberal Vote Rankings - U.S. Senate, 2013
Rank, Member, Score (Economic, Social, Foreign)
35 Christopher Coons 69.5 (70, 68, 66)
35 Timothy Kaine 69.5 (53, 68, 71)
37 Bernie Sanders 68.7 (82, 66, 51)
38 Jeff Merkley 68 (75, 64, 58)

So yes, Kaine is an economic centrist, but National Journal has him ranking with Bernie as a liberal overall.
posted by dw at 4:06 PM on July 31, 2016 [11 favorites]

McConnell and Ryan both repudiated Trump’s words against the Khans

No they did not. They expressed sympathy for the Khans as parents who'd lost a son in battle and referred to earlier statements about the Muslim ban. They said nothing about Trump or his attacks on the Khans.
posted by chris24 at 4:07 PM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

> Whatever the exact metric, it looks like he scored more conservative than the average D.

He's been scored 100% or in the high 90s by groups like Planned Parenthood and the NAACP and 0 or single digits by groups like the FRC and NRA. What is your definition of conservative that excludes issues like this?
posted by rtha at 4:07 PM on July 31, 2016 [15 favorites]

It is so obvious that Trump literally knows nothing about geopolitics, maybe even geography. I wish broadcasters would start trolling him:

"Many people have criticised the approach of Julie London, the UK ambassador to Crimea's Riverine province. Would you say that President Trump would be better than Julie London in Crimea River?"

– "Crimea River?"

"Yes, I cried a river over you."
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:07 PM on July 31, 2016 [24 favorites]

I could go deeper on Bernie and why he got outrun by the "centrists," but the mods have been clear about not re-prosecuting the primaries in the Blue.
posted by dw at 4:11 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

It must be noted that many of the most fervent Post-Bernie leftists are Single Issue Voters; they're not any more likely to vote for someone supporting a FPP treaty in any form than a "Pro-Lifer" would vote for anyone opposing overturning Roe V. Wade. And they'll both be quite comfortable voting for Trump.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:12 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Dibs on the guy with the metal arm.

I want to be whomever gets to kiss Chadwick Boseman at the end

somebody's gotta do it, and that one's gonna be me
posted by Anonymous at 4:13 PM on July 31, 2016

they're not any more likely to vote for someone supporting a FPP treaty...

MeFi could use an FPP treaty.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:15 PM on July 31, 2016 [10 favorites]

NO FPP!

NO FPP!
posted by stolyarova at 4:16 PM on July 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

UFA! UFA!
posted by chris24 at 4:18 PM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

HILL-FAR-RY!
HILL-FAR-RY!
posted by Talez at 4:21 PM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

can I blame autocorrect for turning TPP into FPP?
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:21 PM on July 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

The Strategic Snark Limitation Treaty
posted by XMLicious at 4:21 PM on July 31, 2016 [7 favorites]

Obviously the only FPP treaty we need is the Treaty of Westphalia.
posted by zachlipton at 4:23 PM on July 31, 2016 [7 favorites]

No Aggressive Fighting 'Tween Amigos please!
posted by stolyarova at 4:24 PM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

Floor motion to respectfully ask the chairs to correct onefellswoop's autocorrect error and clean up the aisle.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:25 PM on July 31, 2016

Though I am highly amused
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:26 PM on July 31, 2016

So apparently James Woods is hopping into the fray now and the human cheeto is retweeting him. I don't know they didn't get Woods to come to the RNC. Just run a trail of candy from California to Ohio.
posted by Talez at 4:29 PM on July 31, 2016

That Stelter interview Talez linked to is great. He calls out the dog whistling.

STELTER: You keep mentioning radical Islamic terrorism as if that's somehow linked to Mr. Khan. Why do you keep responding that way when I mention him?

MILLER: Because that's the broader debate that we're having. The broader debate that we're having is about the screening and the vetting that we're having for people who are coming into this country --

STELTER: But that has nothing to do with this family, with this Muslim American family.

MILLER: No, this is what the whole broader debate is about right now. This is not about Mr. Trump and Mr. Khan, this is about Mr. Trump and Hillary Clinton.

posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:32 PM on July 31, 2016 [13 favorites]

James Woods is hopping into the fray now and the human cheeto is retweeting him

And accusing Hillary and the Dems of voter fraud. I'll say it again, the ugly post-election reaction of Trump and Trumpsters to Clinton's hopefully clear win might be more damaging to the future of the Republican Party than his campaign.
posted by chris24 at 4:33 PM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

"Voter fraud" doesn't mean fraudulent voting anymore. The republicans have redefined the term to mean when African Americans don't vote the way you want them to, sadly some on the left have embraced this new definition.
posted by peeedro at 4:42 PM on July 31, 2016 [18 favorites]

Talez, you didn't quote far enough.

“He’s not going into Ukraine, O.K., just so you understand,” Mr. Trump, the Republican nominee, said when the issue came up. “He’s not going to go into Ukraine, all right? You can mark it down. You can put it down. You can take it anywhere you want.”

“Well, he’s already there, isn’t he?” Mr. Stephanopoulos interrupted.

“O.K., well, he’s there in a certain way,” Mr. Trump replied. “But I’m not there. You have Obama there. And frankly, that whole part of the world is a mess under Obama with all the strength that you’re talking about and all of the power of NATO and all of this. In the meantime, he’s going away. He take — takes Crimea.”

That last part is just floundering gibberish. "He take Crimea"? "I'm not there"? "You have Obama there"? What the hell is he talking about?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:45 PM on July 31, 2016 [22 favorites]

i'm sure what he meant to say is that he's not all there
posted by pyramid termite at 4:46 PM on July 31, 2016 [9 favorites]

And frankly, that whole part of the world is a mess under Obama with all the strength that you’re talking about and all of the power of NATO and all of this.

Dude, you got a little Palin in your Trump word salad there.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:47 PM on July 31, 2016 [11 favorites]

I think he's trying to say it wouldn't have happened if he'd been president. And Crimea is next because he's not president. But I do speak Jive.
posted by chris24 at 4:47 PM on July 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

He means that if he were there (in the White House) Putin wouldn't be there (in Crimea). I speak... dammt these tablets take too long to type on.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:49 PM on July 31, 2016

OK Chris24, explain this part: In the meantime, he’s going away. He take — takes Crimea.”

Putin is going away and taking Crimea with him? Where is Putin going? How can he take Crimeas?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:50 PM on July 31, 2016

That's where he means that Crimea is next. Putin is going to do what he wants and take Crimea.
posted by chris24 at 4:52 PM on July 31, 2016

...He already kind of did, though?
posted by stolyarova at 4:53 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm not saying he's right about what he's trying to say, I'm just translating. :P
posted by chris24 at 4:55 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

Can you imagine attempting to negotiate ANYTHING with Trump on the other side of the table? He speaks in such garbled word salad that you'll leave thinking you've got a reasonable agreement, but he will have said and agreed to literally nothing. Plausible deniability through obscurity is how his business dealings must operate. No wonder he bilks people regularly.
posted by stolyarova at 4:55 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

I actually think he doesn't know Crimea is part of Ukraine.
posted by chris24 at 4:57 PM on July 31, 2016 [19 favorites]

Is it wrong to agree with about 80% of what Bill Maher says?
posted by Talez at 4:58 PM on July 31, 2016

I trust Tim Kaine on bank regulation. As a lawyer he sued banks on behalf of people discriminated against by banks and people given predatory loans. His concerns about how we regulate small credit unions and local banks vs big banks are echoed by people in minority and poor communities. We want to make sure that we don't drive what were mostly innocent bystanders in the financial crisis out of business for the sins of Chase, Wells Fargo and other huge banks. Especially when those banks often provide financial services in communities where the big banks still discriminate.
posted by humanfont at 5:01 PM on July 31, 2016 [39 favorites]

Well then Trump goes on to say: “The people of Crimea, from what I’ve heard, would rather be with Russia than where they were, and you have to look at that, also.”

It's a really weird geopolitical viewpoint. I mean I don't think that Crimea had an election and invited Putin to send troops in because they hated being a part of The Ukraine. So let's say that Trump wins the Presidency and Canada invades Minnesotan and some Minnesotans decide they are fine with that. Would that be OK?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:01 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Is it wrong to agree with about 80% of what Bill Maher says?

I generally agree with about 80% of what Bill Maher says. It's the other 20% that drives me nuts. I suppose this experience should make me empathize with the remaining Bernie or Busters.
posted by zachlipton at 5:02 PM on July 31, 2016 [9 favorites]

I generally agree with about 80% of what Bill Maher says. It's the other 20% that drives me nuts. I suppose this experience should make me empathize with the remaining Bernie or Busters.

Like I'm watching the Hillary speech episode and he just drops "f*g" into the conversation casually and I'm like "what?!?"
posted by Talez at 5:04 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

I generally agree with about 80% of what Bill Maher says. It's the other 20% that drives me nuts.

Lately I just can't with him. His over-the-top anti-Muslim stance is too much for me. I used to really enjoy the show but with every Terrorist attack here and abroad, he has become more and more paranoid.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:05 PM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

It would be a better analogy if Minnesota were 67% Norwegian, 84% of Minnesotans spoke Norwegian as their native language, and Norway took over Minnesota, I guess. My husband's an ethnic Russian from Belarus and he thinks Putin wants the shipping access Crimea gives him, but doesn't think he wants the other former Soviet Socialist Republics. We'll see.
posted by stolyarova at 5:05 PM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

Clinton campaign donation algorithm data point - donated $50, just had an email for $38, so that would be .75 of the previous donation. HOWEVER - almost immediately after the $50 donation, I had a text asking for $45.

I hadn't ever donated to a campaign before. I hadn't realized the follow up asking for more would be SO FAST. I mean, I expected I'd hear from them again in a week or so.
posted by hilaryjade at 5:07 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

Hillary Clinton giving Tim Kaine her milkshake order at Grandpa's Cheese Barn on bus tour Ashland Ohio

I'll see that and raise you: "@TimKaine playing "Wagon Wheel" on 1 of 6 harmonicas at this hour on his bus per aide familiar with harmonica music en route Cleveland"
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 5:07 PM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

I think he's mainly really worried about the increasing tension with Putin as the new Big Bad because he's afraid we'll be treated worse in the United States as a result (he has no accent, but a very Russian name, and obviously that's my last name now too).
posted by stolyarova at 5:08 PM on July 31, 2016

Dublin pub decorates urinal with Donald Trump's portrait You have to see the picture to appreciate it. It's a trough with his picture on the supporting wall so you can pee on his face. They do promise to take it down if he gets elected though.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:09 PM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

So let's say that Trump wins the Presidency and Canada invades Minnesotan and some Minnesotans decide they are fine with that. Would that be OK?

Speaking as a Minnesotan, I welcome our new Canadian overlords.
posted by localhuman at 5:10 PM on July 31, 2016 [11 favorites]

HOWEVER - almost immediately after the $50 donation, I had a text asking for $45.

Can confirm. S.O. had the same experience.

This reverse engineering is my favorite part of the campaign.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:12 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

And on the topic of bathrooms,

Americans big buyers of Chinese-made 'Dump with Trump' toilet paper

“At the start, orders were for around 100 rolls a time, but now we’re getting orders for 5,000 rolls,” a saleswoman from the company told China Daily on Tuesday.

Rolls sell for about $0.5 (£0.35) each, and buyers can choose from three Donald Trump facial expressions: smiling, pointing and pouting. [snip]

Among the American buyers is US women’s national football team star Sydney Leroux, who posted her husband’s 'pouting Trump' toilet paper purchase on her Instagram account.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:14 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

This is the attitude that's so frustrating to me. It wasn't "shit merchants" or "the elite" or Debbie Wasserman Schultz who selected Clinton as the Democratic nominee. It was Democratic voters, especially voters of color (it is my understanding that Sanders would've narrowly one has only white people's votes been counted). Some of us Democrats genuinely like Clinton, and there are more of us than there are Democrats who don't like her.

In your opinion is the American political system healthy? It generally respects all viewpoints and does the will of the people? It's not beholden to the interests of corporations and the rich and powerful at the expense of everyone else? From where I stand it seems pretty bad.

You bring up voters of color, I'm guessing to shame me for not liking the process or any of the candidates by invoking the more vulnerable in society and saying how dare I go against their wishes? But in reality only 14% of registered Democrats participated in the primaries, and less than that number of registered minority voters voted. So something like 90% of voters of color felt that no candidate was worth voting for in the primaries.

I'm sorry that you're frustrated with my attitude, and I'm glad you found a candidate you respect and want to vote for, but for me and what seems to be a lot of other people around the nation, a broken system has again made us not enthusiastic about our choices.
posted by chaz at 5:20 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Among the American buyers is US women’s national football team star Sydney Leroux, who posted her husband’s 'pouting Trump' toilet paper purchase on her Instagram account.

Me, I ain't putting that face anywhere near Mrs. Fubbs' parlor
posted by Countess Elena at 5:22 PM on July 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

So something like 90% of voters of color felt that no candidate was worth voting for in the primaries.

Or they liked 'em both. Or they read a poll and figured their vote wasn't likely to matter. Or, hell, they had to work on Election Day.
posted by box at 5:23 PM on July 31, 2016 [11 favorites]

In your opinion is the American political system healthy?

Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.
-- H. L. Mencken
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 5:23 PM on July 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

No. If you say that x has a 70% chance of happening in 10 places, and it happens in all of them, you did not call it correctly. You almost certainly massively understated the probability of x.

In terms of election prediction, that's not how the failures distribute themselves.

What is far more likely to happen is you get 10/10 the first year, 9/10 in the next election two years later, 10/10 again at the next election another two years later.

Doing good right? Way over 70% correct. Woo-hoo!

Then, in the fourth succeeding election, you get them ALL wrong.

As dfan points out, these variations that throw election predictions off are not just random, independent events. They are massively correlated.

Also it is worth pointing out--since we refer to these polls and poll aggregators often, and often pin our hopes and fears on them--that predicting U.S. elections is far from easy and far from certain. So much depends on turnout, and that is difficult or impossible to predict. And all that goes double when you are many months out from the election and the polling numbers are anywhere close to being even.

Many grains of salt are needed when looking at any of these predictions.
posted by flug at 5:28 PM on July 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

if you come to a politics thread to quote Mencken, it just shows that you're too cynical to participate meaningfully.
posted by murphy slaw at 5:32 PM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'd love to see Hillary/Kaine adopt Oregon's vote by mail process as part of their Voter Access initiatives. Every two years (or more, since we have state / special elections also), I'm reminded how much better it is here.

Hopefully the bullshit around the VRA causes some sort of national standard for voting access that states are required to meet in exchange for ... something, government contracts or whatever.
posted by mrzarquon at 5:33 PM on July 31, 2016 [7 favorites]

That last part is just floundering gibberish. "He take Crimea"? "I'm not there"? "You have Obama there"? What the hell is he talking about?

Basically Obama is weak so Putin took the Crimea from the Ukrainians, but Putin isn't going to move into Ukraine proper [aside from the current incursions into the Donbass border regions which I assume Cheetoface isn't aware of].

I'm no Russia expert but the Crimean peninsula can probably be considered more Russian than Ukrainian, in that it was literally gifted to the Ukrainian SSR in living memory:

"It was somewhat symbolic, somewhat trying to reshuffle the centralized system and also, full disclosure, Nikita Khrushchev was very fond of Ukraine," she [Nina Khruschev] tells NPR's David Greene. "So I think to some degree it was also a personal gesture toward his favorite republic. He was ethnically Russian, but he really felt great affinity with Ukraine."
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 5:34 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

if you come to a politics thread to quote Mencken, it just shows that you're too cynical to participate meaningfully.

I'd say cynical enough to participate constructively, but YMMV.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:35 PM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

In your opinion is the American political system healthy? It generally respects all viewpoints and does the will of the people?

Yes? I mean I wish candidates didn't have to spend so much time fundraising and I do think we should overturn Citizens United. On the other hand, the Kochs are not happy with this year's Republican nominee, and Hillary Clinton lost in 2008 despite being just as much the "establishment" favorite as she was this year.

Unlike many MeFites, I think, I actually know a LOT of Republicans. I pretty much only know other Democrats online, actually. So yeah, my experience is the the political system pretty much does the will of the people, though I don't particularly agree with it a lot of the time. In my bubble I am the outnumbered lefty, but I accept that when Republicans win local races, it's because more people voted for them and agree with them, wrongheaded as it seems to me.
posted by OnceUponATime at 5:37 PM on July 31, 2016 [10 favorites]

RNC and DNC Showed There Are Two Teams in America – Choose Wisely. Conventions depicted starkly different visions of our nation. In November, we must vote for one of them
posted by homunculus at 5:37 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

3 a.m. | The SIMPSONS: "Marge and Homer Simpson wrestle with the choice in this election."
posted by homunculus at 5:37 PM on July 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

I just finished reading this entire thread and I wish I could be one of the positive people. The comparison was made that Trump is shit and Clinton is chocolate ice cream. To me it looks more like a choice between shit and shit with corn in it. At least you can pick some corn out of one of the shits and get some sustenance but the shit merchants are still just giving us normal people shit to choose from.

One point you are missing is that Trump is abnormal and terrible. He is in no sense a normal candidate. If you think the normal standard is shit then that makes Trump radioactive waste.

I can see why you'd consider Clinton unappetising (although I am prepared to argue against that). But the last candidate for President that was as toxic as Donald Trump was George Wallace the segregationist independent. And frankly at least Wallace had some experience governing.
posted by Francis at 5:38 PM on July 31, 2016 [33 favorites]

I came to this thread to snark and chew bubblegum, and I'm all out of... oh wait, there's another pack.

You got lucky this time.
posted by ckape at 5:39 PM on July 31, 2016 [10 favorites]

if you come to a politics thread to quote Mencken, it just shows that you're too cynical to participate meaningfully.

Around half this country believes Jesus is probably or definitely returning in their lifetimes.

http://www.pewresearch.org/daily-number/jesus-christs-return-to-earth/

(1/3 the country is outright creationist)

You really can't have a functioning democratic system when the idiocy is so high in the populace.

This is what H L was getting on about, and what Upton Sinclair ran into in 1934.

Politicians aren't the problem, WE THE PEOPLE are the problem.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 5:40 PM on July 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

Politicians aren't the problem, WE THE PEOPLE are the problem.

This kinda condescending attitude is exactly how leftist utopias gradually turn into dictatorships, you know.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:43 PM on July 31, 2016 [8 favorites]

This kinda condescending attitude is exactly how leftist utopias gradually turn into dictatorships, you know.

Leftist Utopias? Like what?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:49 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

>>Politicians aren't the problem, WE THE PEOPLE are the problem.

This kinda condescending attitude is exactly how leftist utopias gradually turn into dictatorships, you know.

I don't think it's wrong though -- it's just that you can take it two ways. You either go "yes! humans are flawed, and we need a leftist dictatorship and everything will then be perfect!" or you say "hmm, if the the great sea of people aren't going to go for this broadly leftist agenda, we can accept that, work within our democracy, and make incremental leftward improvements that will accumulate into radical change over time."
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 5:50 PM on July 31, 2016 [18 favorites]

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter. -- Winston Churchill

These are just quips, but speaking from experience, too.

There are in fact a few leftist utopias on the planet, the nordic states of Denmark, Norway, and Sweden.

I don't have any good idea how they came to their putatively egalitarian polity and we got ours, but I do want to move there someday to check it out on the ground, or read a book on it if one exists.

Being small (5 - 10M), indigenous/homogenous populations no doubt helped.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 5:52 PM on July 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

(The gerrymandered House really is broken, though, and needs to be fixed. And voter suppression laws are Not Okay, and thank goodness the courts are drawing a line there, generally. But neither of those has anything to do with Sanders not being picked. I just don't want to be on the record saying there are no systematic flaws in our electioral system. Just that for all its flaws it still more or less seems to reflect the will of the people.)
posted by OnceUponATime at 5:57 PM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter.

For what it's worth, I just came back from having a bunch of five-minute conversations with voters, and I think that's bullshit. Also, I'm fairly certain he also said that democracy is the worst political system except all the others. And finally, Churchill is a weird person for anyone on the left to be quoting.

Our system is deeply, deeply flawed. But it's what we've got. In order to change it, we need to work within it. Even St. Bernie realizes that: he wants a political revolution, not the shooting kind, and that means changing the political system from within. Anyone who isn't willing to address current political realities is not someone who is committed to real change.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:58 PM on July 31, 2016 [29 favorites]

To chip away at creationism and fundamentalist religion, we need good public schools and libraries, safe and diverse communities, and decent employment opportunities. Sneering at the American people gets us nowhere close to the influence we need to begin to deliver them.
posted by Countess Elena at 5:59 PM on July 31, 2016 [14 favorites]

Between this, Donald Trump's trumpishness about international matters/POWs/'losing', I'm wondering if the military is going to start skewing heavily towards Clinton.

She made a very strong play for them. I personally feel "use our power to help others" is a good look for the Democratic Party, since "no war" is relatively unfeasible (right now). A shift within the military would take a lot of time, especially with how easy it is for humans to convince ourselves we're doing one thing when we're really doing another, but stories about people like Humayun Khan and how he not only protected and supported his own troops but also Iraquis around the base offer a way through the mess we've made of the Middle East.
posted by Deoridhe at 6:01 PM on July 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

indigenous/homogenous populations no doubt helped.

Using this phrase in relation to Scandinavian countries being utopias seems... well, maybe I'm reading it wrong.
posted by chris24 at 6:03 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

I wonder if the reason that "the system is rigged" is getting so much play on both the left and the right this year is because we're so polarized these days. People who don't know any Democrats don't understand how a Democrat could possibly win a fair election. And people who don't know any Republicans, vice versa. So then they both end up believing the system is rigged..
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:04 PM on July 31, 2016 [8 favorites]

I just finished reading this entire thread and I wish I could be one of the positive people. The comparison was made that Trump is shit and Clinton is chocolate ice cream. To me it looks more like a choice between shit and shit with corn in it. At least you can pick some corn out of one of the shits and get some sustenance but the shit merchants are still just giving us normal people shit to choose from.

If you think there's any comparison between how dangerous Trump as president would be compared to Clinton then you and many of us live in totally different worlds. Congratulations on Trump not being an existential threat to you or anyone you know, I guess.
posted by winna at 6:04 PM on July 31, 2016 [49 favorites]

That assumes democracy is "working" / "implemented" properly. If 8 years of W doesn't prove that it is utterly betrayed by corporate media, nothing will. Heck, ONE reporter got sort of tough on a Trump goon and we're all like "Woooo!"

No, no, no that's not what's happening here. It's been Morning In America for 35 years. That's a kind of f*'d up democracy.

This year the Interwebs are changing things. Not always for the better but, there you go.

Can I just say this is the first time I've been on television?
posted by petebest at 6:05 PM on July 31, 2016

I just finished reading this entire thread and I wish I could be one of the positive people. The comparison was made that Trump is shit and Clinton is chocolate ice cream. To me it looks more like a choice between shit and shit with corn in it.

It looks like that to you because corn is the only thing you care about. Other people are working in shit factories. Give a thought to them before you vote.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 6:17 PM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

So, the pure morals voter, the one that can't vote for someone they see as flawed. How does this work in the real world?

I said in another thread there is no 100% in politics. But let's say you got that candidate, the one that you agree with 100%, and you can finally vote and not be silenced all your life. That means that a huge majority of people in the country do not agree with them, to varying degrees, especially if your candidate is far left.

Your position is that everyone else should then compromise and vote for your candidate that they only agree with 80%, 60%, but that you can never do the same? Because you're that much smarter, more right, morally superior, or all of the above? Or that somehow, magically, a majority will suddenly agree with you though they've already indicated otherwise?
posted by bongo_x at 6:18 PM on July 31, 2016 [35 favorites]

can we declare a moratorium on shit/corn analogies
posted by murphy slaw at 6:18 PM on July 31, 2016 [51 favorites]

Here's a relevant link that just showed up on my Facebook about the Democratic primary, "rigging," and voters of color.
posted by OnceUponATime at 6:20 PM on July 31, 2016 [11 favorites]

> Stein supports the anti-vaxxers

http://www.snopes.com/is-green-party-candidate-jill-stein-anti-vaccine/

By implying that people should be suspicious of vaccines due to "corporate influence in medicine," Jill Stein is a de facto anti-vaxxer.

Wonkette: ‘Dr.’ Jill Stein Pandering to Anti-Vaxxers, Because She Is Awful

Stein knows what she’s doing here. She is intentionally trying to court anti-vaccine and anti-GMO activists, whose Venn diagrams are increasingly overlapping of late. Anti-science kombucha brewers like March Against Monsanto have been railing against vaccines for some time now, propagating ridiculous myths that autism is a vaccine injury. Stein is actively trying to court these people with her words because she knows it resonates with them. They too claim to be in favor of safe vaccines. So what if they haven’t gotten any of their children vaccinated and try to cure their baby’s meningitis with syrup and hugs? That’s the fault of the doctors for not passing an ever-shifting purity test, not the MoM’s inability to read scientific studies without their eyes glazing over.

Look, dear readers, if you support the Green Party platform, by all means vote for them, and good luck to you in your endeavors. But if we on the left are willing to call out Donald Trump for openly courting birthers, conspiracy theorists, neo-fascists, white supremacists, that redneck who tugs his junk at passing cars from his front stoop, and even anti-vaxxers, we have to be able to call out our own side of the spectrum for the exact same behavior.

posted by homunculus at 6:20 PM on July 31, 2016 [22 favorites]

I'm confused. Are you genuinely interested in winning over holdouts on the left to vote for Clinton, or not?

If a Trump supporter wants to sit and argue all day and indicates they can't be persuaded I wouldn't waste my time. I can't see why that would be any different with someone claiming to be on the left. Don't got time for it.
posted by bongo_x at 6:21 PM on July 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

There's a distinction between "the system is rigged," as in our economic system stacks the deck against all but the rich, which there's a lot of agreement for, and "the system is rigged," as in systemic efforts like gerrymandering and voter suppression and the role of big donors are threats to our democracy, and "the system as rigged," as in the election was literally stolen like ballots floating in the river. All are bad, but I think a lot of people conflate the three, perhaps intentionally, but that's a scary precedent to set.

We've talked a bunch about crying wolf and now there's a very scary wolf at the door. When we cry "the system is rigged" after every election, it gives us nothing to say when the vote truly is stolen.
posted by zachlipton at 6:21 PM on July 31, 2016 [27 favorites]

I can't see why that would be any different with someone claiming to be on the left. Don't got time for it.

But again: I was a holdout (and I don't "claim" to be on the left; I am on the left), and then I was persuaded. Are you interested in persuading other people like me who are open to it, or aren't you? And if not, doesn't that undermine the argument that this election is one of special urgency? With so much at stake, I can't begin to understand where this dismissiveness is coming from.
posted by the return of the thin white sock at 6:50 PM on July 31, 2016 [14 favorites]

Anyway, consider that a rhetorical question for you to ponder on your own. This thread has reminded me why I should go back to lurking for good.
posted by the return of the thin white sock at 6:52 PM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

Hi humanfront --

I trust Tim Kaine on bank regulation. As a lawyer he sued banks on behalf of people discriminated against by banks and people given predatory loans.

I'd be interested in reading about this, did you have a cite? I wonder what you think of David Dayen's piece criticizing Kaine's recent record. He makes the points that small community banks weren't among those Kaine was seeking to protect, rather it was larger regional banks, and that Kaine opposed efforts to curb predatory loans by payday lenders, which disproportionately affect racial minorities.

Thank you for a comment that wasn't condescending or dismissive, or an attempt at the Socratic method.
posted by airing nerdy laundry at 6:52 PM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

Anti-science kombucha brewers like March Against Monsanto have been railing against vaccines

My new nu-metal band: Rail Against The Vaccine
posted by Joey Michaels at 6:58 PM on July 31, 2016 [7 favorites]

Can I just ask folks as a personal favor to me to do whatever they need to do to justify a Clinton vote and just do it? I'm not the world's foremost political debater and I don't have the time or energy to google up refutations for every single accusation made over the past 25 years. Just please. People's lives are at stake. Like, not rhetorical lives, for realsies lives. A lot of them. More than all our drone campaigns and war crimes over the past 15 years put together and multiplied by ten. Maybe all of them considering Trump's openly stated morbid fascination with nuclear weapons and how much other notable world crazies with itchy trigger fingers are pulling for a Trump victory.

Just please, this one time, do it for me, a very sincere, very terrified internet rando. Do it for my son, who is way cuter and way more innocent than me. I don't want him to grow up in a nuclear wasteland or a fascist dictatorship. In 101 days we can talk all about how to make sure our government does what we all want it to do (somehow, miraculously, simultaneously for 300 million different opinions of what that would look like). But right now I just cannot have that conversation. My lizard brain kicks in immediately because seriously DANGER DANGER DANGER
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:02 PM on July 31, 2016 [72 favorites]

With so much at stake, I can't begin to understand where this dismissiveness is coming from.

Ironically, I think it comes from fear. There is no way for us to know what is going to happen, and that often plays itself out in rigidity and increasing rhetoric. Being open to other people disagreeing for reasons increases the fear - if the reasons are valid, then they might be persuasive to other people and thus bring about the very scary thing. It's a lot harder to make space for the fear without letting it overwhelm us. If everyone agrees with us, then the fear can go to sleep - but that's a fools errand; even with minor differences between people, some difference exists.
posted by Deoridhe at 7:02 PM on July 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

Using this phrase in relation to Scandinavian countries being utopias seems

My take on the Nordic states is that the Danes, Swedes, and Norwegians have been inhabiting Copenhagen, Stockholm, and Oslo forever. Their common roots there are very deep, and they are all family and in it together.
Just like Iceland, but now one order of magnitude greater in size.

This is far from the social history of the US. We may have invented modern representative democracy, but e.g. in 1796 John Adams won the Presidency with a popular vote of 35,000 (out of a nation of 4 - 5 millions).

Our tribes were insane enough to declare war on each other 150-odd years ago, suffering more deaths than all our foreign wars put together.

So many of us have a lot of garbage in our heads, having been brainwashed, bamboozled, and gaslighted by so many influencers, mostly on the conservative side.

While I certainly agree about the WSC quip -- the average person can't be that incorrigible, one more quip that resonates with me:

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." -- John Stuart Mill
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 7:10 PM on July 31, 2016

Corey Robin: Trump’s Indecent Proposal

That we can sit here and act as if Donald Trump’s indecency is a singular pathology rather than a systemic mode of politics, that we can treat his arrival on the scene as a novelty and innovation rather than the logical outgrowth of years of right-wing revanchism, that we would invoke against Trump the memory of an earlier, more decent Republican Party, present as recently as one election ago: that is itself a kind of collusion, an erasure of the past, a collusion with indecency. In the same way that it took no great act of courage for Joseph Welch to denounce a man who was already on his knees, it requires no bravery—or knowledge—to denounce Trump while exonerating the party and the movement that produced him.

It is also a dangerous forgetting: after all, before you can cross a Rubicon, you’ve got to march quite a way.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:16 PM on July 31, 2016 [13 favorites]

The dismissiveness also comes from many months of disagreeing and hashing stuff out and now having to continue to argue for Clinton vs Leftist Utopia instead of Clinton vs Orange Hellscape.

Just vote for her or don't but please, stop showing up everywhere declaring your intentions to strangers (and near strangers on Facebook) and expecting people to give you attention like you're streaking at a baseball game. Seems like some people are literally holding their votes hostage and making outlandish demands, and frankly I'm done negotiating. Do whatever you want -- if you desire on demand 101 level info on why you should any particular way, try asking Jeeves.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:19 PM on July 31, 2016 [31 favorites]

Here is an article on Kaine's work in fair housing and highlighting his biggest victory against Nationwide

I don't know if his position is the best policy, but I trust him to understand the issue and to be on the side of ordinary people instead of bankers when trying to formulate policies and positions.
posted by humanfont at 7:31 PM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

Two things I don't understand:

Trump is complaining that some of the debates are scheduled at the same time slot as NFL games. I have no idea what the DVR penetration numbers are currently in the USA, anecdotally it seems pretty high to me, although I recognize that is irrelevant. Why wouldn't people with DVRs just record one or both and watch them later?

Second, for those people who would prefer to watch the NFL game over the conflicting debates and don't have a DVR, people could certainly watch the debates later by watching them on youtube or similar?

Sure looks like a hollow excuse that is really a non-issue, at least IMO.

Thoughts, folks?
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 7:31 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

I was a holdout (and I don't 'claim' to be on the left; I am on the left), and then I was persuaded. Are you interested in persuading other people like me who are open to it, or aren't you?

I'm interested, but it's hard to realize what it's going to take. Either Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump is going to be the next president. The Democratic platform is its most progressive ever, with significant contributions from the Sanders campaign.

If Trump wins, none of the platform will be enacted.

If Clinton wins, some of the platform will be enacted. The more Democrats and progressives get elected, the higher the percentage of the platform gets enacted. If more Democrats and progressives get elected in 2018, an even higher percentage is likely to be enacted.

You're not going to get everything on your wish list. Your choice is between getting something or getting nothing.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:33 PM on July 31, 2016 [45 favorites]

I think its just that Trump would rather watch football than show up for the debates.
posted by lkc at 7:33 PM on July 31, 2016 [12 favorites]

Sure looks like a hollow excuse that is really a non-issue

Trump's entire campaign in a nutshell
posted by sporkwort at 7:34 PM on July 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

More dispatches from the land of Stein:

WaPo:

"As a medical doctor, there was a time where I looked very closely at those issues, and not all those issues were completely resolved," Stein said. "There were concerns among physicians about what the vaccination schedule meant, the toxic substances like mercury which used to be rampant in vaccines. There were real questions that needed to be addressed. I think some of them at least have been addressed. I don’t know if all of them have been addressed."

Uh, rampant mercury in vaccines? You mean, less than 25 micrograms per half milliliter for a select few vaccines? Like, less than from your average serving of canned tuna?

Also, those last three sentences are textbook Trump-speak. Imply scary bullshit, but don't back it up with any facts or figures. She should be ashamed of herself, but I suspect she has a touch of the same narcissism and ego driving the orange dumpster fire.
posted by Existential Dread at 7:34 PM on July 31, 2016 [34 favorites]

My take on the Nordic states

When you say the Nordic states are utopian in part because they're indigenous/homogenous it can be read as they're great in part because they're white and stayed that way. Just FYI.
posted by chris24 at 7:34 PM on July 31, 2016 [11 favorites]

More dispatches from the land of Stein:

Flagged as SteinFilter.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:35 PM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

He'll use any excuse to avoid appearing with Hilary. There's no logic behind it other than he has to assert dominance, and knows he would lose in a fair 1-on-1 matchup, badly. If it wasn't the NFL game, he'd invent some other reason. He's incapable of accepting the terms as presented, no matter how reasonable, because doing so doesn't let him "win".

That's all there is to it.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:35 PM on July 31, 2016 [7 favorites]

Yeah, what soren_lorensen said: "People's lives are at stake. Like, not rhetorical lives, for realsies lives. A lot of them. More than all our drone campaigns and war crimes over the past 15 years put together and multiplied by ten. Maybe all of them." Are some people really looking at this terrifying loon and saying, "Well, thank providence I'm a white dude and a citizen, so I don't have to worry about it if this guy gets in. Hell, what's four years?" I'm not scared of him because I'm not a white guy, I'm scared of him because I legit think he might blow up the world. You have to be on some kind of a superior anxiety medication regimen if you're not really scared of this, and I for one would like to know what the hell it is.
posted by Don Pepino at 7:39 PM on July 31, 2016 [19 favorites]

"Look, lots of media elites are using rigged polls to claim I lost the debate. But everyone I've spoken to said I won. I feel I won. I won big. Ask anyone. "
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:41 PM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

I wonder if any of the betting markets are doing anything about the debates. I'd be surprised if Trump participates in three debates.
posted by skewed at 7:42 PM on July 31, 2016

Just saw one of my (mega Hillary-supporter) FB friends attempt some psy-ops on someone else's wall bigging up Johnson as the only viable (has experience, is on the ballot in all 50 states) candidate other than Clinton. Unfortunately in this particular case it turned out she was actually addressing a couple of "if you mention racism that means YOU'RE the racist!!!1!" r-word-slinging class A doucherockets, but I admired the subtleness of her approach.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:42 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'd love to see Hillary/Kaine adopt Oregon's vote by mail process as part of their Voter Access initiatives. Every two years (or more, since we have state / special elections also), I'm reminded how much better it is here.

No. I understand why Oregonians make this case, but it's based on flawed premises.

Oregon's vote-by-mail works because Oregon has a civic culture that values and defends the right to participate in civic life. In a way, that's grimly accidental: by excluding African-Americans early in its history, Oregon never had a period of systematically disenfranchising them because African-Americans have never had the raw numbers as a voting bloc to affect the outcome of a statewide election.

Oregon-style vote-by-mail can't be exported to states that lack a real commitment to free and fair elections -- particularly old Jim Crow states, but that's been expanded northwards in recent years -- in the assumption that they will turn into Oregon. African-Americans line up for hours to vote in those states, even those that allow no-fault mail-in voting, because they damn well want to see their votes registered on the machine.
posted by holgate at 7:48 PM on July 31, 2016 [15 favorites]

Sure looks like a hollow excuse that is really a non-issue, at least IMO.

Of course it's a non-issue. Debates were scheduled against NFL games in 2012 and they even had two debates on Friday in 2008. Nobody cared; the world didn't end.

This is all about throwing a tantrum so Trump has levers to pull when he wants to back out of the debates. Next he can say it's rigged because Stein and Johnson won't be there (there's a longstanding 15% polling threshold and they're not really close right now, so there's no reason to have the usual arguments about which polls are included and how recent they have to be and when the cut-off date is). Later he can say he'll only show up if a sufficient amount of money is donated to some charity. Or complain about the moderator. Or whatever.

And then if he does eventually show up and manages to get through the debate without using profanity or talking about his genitals or accidentally setting his podium on fire, people will declare he won because the expectations were so low.
posted by zachlipton at 7:51 PM on July 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

Karen Meredith, Gold Star mom, hits Trump: "This is an attack on all Gold Star Families"
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:54 PM on July 31, 2016 [12 favorites]

Oregon-style vote-by-mail can't be exported to states that lack a real commitment to free and fair elections -- particularly old Jim Crow states, but that's been expanded northwards in recent years -- in the assumption that they will turn into Oregon. African-Americans line up for hours to vote in those states, even those that allow no-fault mail-in voting, because they damn well want to see their votes registered on the machine.

Holgate, how do you see vote-by-mail further disenfranchising black voters? I have a hard time seeing how something that makes voting more accessible will cause less access to the polls, but maybe the crisp Oregon air is causing me to miss something vital about your argument.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:02 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

When you vote by mail you have only the integrity of the system to guarantee that your vote will be counted and not thrown into a trash can.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:07 PM on July 31, 2016 [10 favorites]

I don't know if this is true of the Oregon vote-by-mail system, but in Washington, the mail-in ballots have a detachable stub that you can use to go online and verify if your ballot has been processed.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 8:08 PM on July 31, 2016 [10 favorites]

When you vote by mail you have only the integrity of the system to guarantee that your vote will be counted and not thrown into a trash can.

I don't get it. How's that different from, say, a box of paper ballots, or the blackbox of a computer voting machine?
posted by rifflesby at 8:10 PM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

I don't get it. How's that different from, say, a box of paper ballots, or the blackbox of a computer voting machine?

Because the ballot papers or black box can't be sorted out by the return name and address on the envelope.
posted by Talez at 8:11 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yeah, Oregon also has receipt confirmation for ballots. It's weird how the most common criticisms of Oregon's vote-by-mail are so easily debunked.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:12 PM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

We were trying to figure out this NFL vs debates thing earlier. Is he somehow claiming that being opposite a football game favors one side over another? What do ratings and viewing conflicts have to do with the fairness of a debate? Can't quite figure out what he's getting at.
posted by bongo_x at 8:14 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

What do ratings and viewing conflicts have to do with the fairness of a debate?

All he cares about is ratings. When the DNC got better ratings than the RNC, he immediately insisted he hadn't been involved in planning it at all and just showed up to give a speech at the end.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 8:16 PM on July 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

And he's also basically saying she wants to minimize viewership, because she's worried about losing/looking bad.
posted by chris24 at 8:16 PM on July 31, 2016

Maybe he's confused and thinks there will be a call in to vote who won.
posted by bongo_x at 8:17 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

Because he knows his base is White Dudes and White Dudes love football, amirite? I don't think the argument is so much that the debates won't be fair but that the people he's counting on to vote for him won't see his stellar debate performance. Or something. I mean, yes actually he just doesn't wanna waaaaa debating is hard, but the above is what his more articulate surrogates wills ay.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:17 PM on July 31, 2016

Because the ballot papers or black box can't be sorted out by the return name and address on the envelope.

But the voter has confirmation that their ballot was received, and the ballot itself is stripped of any identifying info before being counted. I'm not really seeing the danger (at least over other state's systems), unless you're actually suggesting the potential for a massive conspiracy to secretly perpetrate and then cover up election fraud.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:22 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

No, he's not concerned for himself, he just doesn't want those poor hardworking folks at the NFL to have no viewers because everyone wants to watch him instead. Totally altruistic.
posted by ckape at 8:23 PM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

WA has Oregon-like mail-in voting. You can also drop your ballot directly into a secure lock-box at a ballot drop-off location. There are 29 of these locations in my county, mostly at libraries and government buildings. They are open 24 hours a day for almost 3 weeks before the election, so if you don't trust the mail (or just want to save a stamp) you can still easily vote without waiting in line or missing work.
posted by mbrubeck at 8:26 PM on July 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

But the voter has confirmation that their ballot was received, and the ballot itself is removed from any identifying info before being counted. I'm not really seeing the danger (at least over other state's systems), unless you're actually suggesting the potential for a massive conspiracy to secretly perpetrate and then cover up election fraud.

Who said cover up? They're doing other non-specfic voter suppression pretty openly right now in southern states.

You "lose" (throw out) 5% of the ballots and you put your thumb on the election scale just like every other shitty thing these power mongers do. It's not hard to look at a ballot as it comes in and say "Hey, that comes from the poor side of town and the voter has a president's last name for a first name. Oops it appears that ballot was lost.". This is what black people are afraid of when they vote by mail. A lot of them have lived through society-wide conspiracies to oppress them. I wouldn't trust a mail in ballot as far as I could throw it if I was in their shoes.
posted by Talez at 8:29 PM on July 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

It's not hard to look at a ballot as it comes in and say "Hey, that comes from the poor side of town and the voter has a president's last name for a first name. Oops it appears that ballot was lost."

With properly implemented vote-by-mail in the present day, it's ferociously difficult to do that and not get caught.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:31 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

I said yesterday (565 comments ago) that I didn't understand how obtuse Trump had to be to keep the Khizr Khan story alive for 3 straight days. And now it is going into day 4:

NYT: Donald Trump’s Confrontation With Muslim Soldier’s Parents Emerges as Unexpected Flash Point

Mr. Trump has plainly struggled to respond to the reproach of a military family who lost a son, and has answered their criticism derisively ... And Mr. Trump’s usual political tool kit has appeared to fail him ... Mr. Trump’s clash with the Khan family threatens to unwind any progress he may have made at moderating his campaign and rallying his party at the outset of the general election.

Couldn't happen to a more deserving campaign.
posted by RedOrGreen at 8:33 PM on July 31, 2016 [17 favorites]

I don't see how Trump can refuse all the debates without handing the Clinton campaign a nice gift-wrapped commercial that they can run all the way up to election day: "He's too afraid to face me. What happens when he has to face [montage of world leaders] them?"

I do suspect though that he participates in one debate; is insubstantive, meandering, and bullying; claims he won; and refuses the rest on an "I already said all I need to say to that woman" justification.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 8:36 PM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

Just please, this one time, do it for me, a very sincere, very terrified internet rando. Do it for my son, who is way cuter and way more innocent than me. I don't want him to grow up in a nuclear wasteland or a fascist dictatorship.

Agreed x1000. My partner and I are thinking hard about bringing a kid into this world, but we're not going to be doing it if the unspeakable happens.
posted by localhuman at 8:37 PM on July 31, 2016 [8 favorites]

Why vote by mail works:

The US post office, not once every two year volunteers, take care of delivery from house to counting / ballot processing center. There already exist federal laws to prevent them from tampering with mail.

You can drop your ballot off in person locked boxes.

In the one case of vote tampering found, because they can track the batches of ballots being counted (but not the individual voters), they were able to notify all voters in that batch to recast their vote. In the that case, it was because the person (republican volunteer) was filling out the republican options for the down ticket races people had left blank, hence the suggestion for a none of the above option.

As for "Washington and Oregon can do that because they don't have systemic racism" have you been to our fucking states? We are the states the white supremists literally founded during the civil war. They handled the race issue by not letting non whites in at all. I'm pissed off that Cascadia independence movement is also tied up with those descendants of white supremacy, because I'd love for a for a west of the cascades, north of Eugene state since we have more in common with with Seattle than Spokane (Go PacNW tree Octupi!)
posted by mrzarquon at 8:38 PM on July 31, 2016 [24 favorites]

I shouldn't be shocked, but in threads about Khizr Khan on Twitter, Trump's supporters are claiming he's connected to the Muslim Brotherhood and all sorts of other nonsense. It's abominable.
posted by AFABulous at 8:48 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's... just, Trump gives a voice to these people. That scares me as much as the man himself.
posted by AFABulous at 8:49 PM on July 31, 2016 [10 favorites]

Also we have a double envelope- ballot goes into anonymous envelope, anonymous envelope goes into mailer envelope which contains the confirmation number and signature of person saying "this is my one vote."

I don't have the full details of how they handle the ballots post that besides the batching (a coworker was one of those who was notified their ballot may have been tampered with and asked to recast).

As for selective tampering based on neighborhood:

We know registered voters by address (cause we mail them ballots), we can count whose ballots have been reported. If all of Montavillas ballots go missing, it becomes really fucking apparent. We sent them 400 ballots, but only counted 20.

Given the scrutiny and time it takes to become a USPS mail handler (the person who actually drives the truck/drops off mail) it is much more rigorous than any ballot inspector or hanging chad expert.

So yeah, it works pretty fucking well. To the point where every two years (cause we only vote on stuff every two years here) the republicans try to do a round of concern trolling on the integrity of the system, and every year, they are proven wrong (or in 2012, shown that the malevolent actors are republican)
posted by mrzarquon at 8:51 PM on July 31, 2016 [11 favorites]

You can drop your ballot off in person locked boxes.

Probably everywhere, but in CA for sure you can authorize another person to drop it off for you. I don't remember all the details about who can do it, but I did it for my mom and all she had to do was sign the envelope and include my info and relation to her.
posted by Room 641-A at 8:57 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh and one last thing: we still support day of voting: you can walk into a voting office and can submit a ballot. If they have mailed you a ballot and it's not recorded as counted, they just invalidate that ballot ID and you vote with a new one. If that ballot has already been counted, they ask questions.

This is significantly better and provides significantly better forms of checks and validation a than any other voting system:

"What about paid votes" - yes in theory with a mail in ballot people could fill out their ballot in the presence of others in exchange of money. But to do so at the scale to swing an election (let's say 1000 people) it would not go unnoticed eventually.'

What about lost mail? If voter turnip is high enough, it again becomes harder - larger voter turnout negates that impact. You have to throw out more ballots to swing the election.

What about spouse / new tenants using others ballots: again, at the scale of numbers needed to swing the election, that would also become noticeable. At the individual level, it becomes harder.

In other words: the more access and the easier it is for people to vote, the harder the people who want to alter the outcome have to work to alter the results. Instead of influencing 500 voters they have to influence 5000. The larger the conspiracy, the easier it is discovered (sorry Bernie Bros - this is why you'll never prove the election was stolen, the amount needed to tip the scale would be noticeable). The harder it is to vote, the lower the numbers are you need to influence to swing an election: 50 votes instead of 500 is a lot easier to buy / bury / burn.
posted by mrzarquon at 9:07 PM on July 31, 2016 [14 favorites]

And here we go. Roger Stone, former Trump campaign staff and current Trump confidante/dirty trickster is saying Mr. Khan is a Muslim Brotherhood terrorist working for Clinton.
posted by chris24 at 9:12 PM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

OMFG
posted by rtha at 9:12 PM on July 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

I can't wait to see the huge and potent can of whoop-ass that Mr. Khan opens up in response to that.
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 9:15 PM on July 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

And here we go. Roger Stone, former Trump campaign staff and current Trump confidante/dirty trickster is saying Mr. Khan is a Muslim Brotherhood terrorist working for the Clinton's.

This whole campaign has big one long "have you no decency" moment where the answer, again and again, is "fuck decency." This is what Trump supporters want for America.
posted by Joey Michaels at 9:16 PM on July 31, 2016 [55 favorites]

The site he links to, which is one of the least reputable looking websites I've seen in a while, goes on to speculate that Mr. Khan's son really joined the US Military to kill Americans but died "before his Islamist mission was accomplished." Then it asks for donations to a shady-looking organization to "rescue Christians."
posted by zachlipton at 9:22 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

we're less than four days into the general election campaign and Trump has already sunk this low?

it would be unbelievable if it wasn't so totally believable.

this is going to be the dirtiest campaign in history if it actually makes it to election day
posted by murphy slaw at 9:29 PM on July 31, 2016 [11 favorites]

stone also accuses clinton staffer huma abedin of Muslim Brotherhood membership on his twitter timeline.

he's a toxic waste dump that walks like a man.
posted by murphy slaw at 9:32 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

He... what? How?

No, scratch that. I don't want to soil my brain by peeking inside his.
posted by stolyarova at 9:32 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

Holy shit... and just as we're entering a new news cycle, when hypothetically that Khan thing would've fallen off. Will the trump campaign disavow that? I'm guessing, "no".
posted by codacorolla at 9:37 PM on July 31, 2016

I've already voted in Tuesday's Washington primary, and I did it last week. We have double envelopes, signature verification, drop boxes, online tracking, a voting center down in Renton if you REALLY hate the mail-in ballot or need to vote provisionally, and lastly, the public can watch the vote-counting process which includes election judges reviewing signatures against the database.

The result? We had 34.7% turnout in May for a primary that only mattered to the GOP, and over half the votes were Democrats. In presidential elections we usually top 80% turnout.

The main downside of the Washington system is the ballot only needs to be postmarked day of the election, which means it can take days, sometimes weeks for the outcome to be known.

The complaints about vote-by-mail seem strange, honestly. Southern states don't have any incentive to "disappear" ballots, given eventually the paper trail will come back and bite them. It's far easier (and "legal" in the sense no one will get prosecuted) to restrict registration and ballot access. And Washington has its own history of Jim Crow.
posted by dw at 9:38 PM on July 31, 2016 [6 favorites]

Will the trump campaign disavow that? I'm guessing, "no".
posted by codacorolla at 11:37 PM on July 31

My guess is they'll double down and press even harder. How is this not a landslide for Clinton? Have many Americans lost their minds?
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 9:40 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

Inchoate Rage vs. Pragmatism 2016
posted by stolyarova at 9:42 PM on July 31, 2016 [8 favorites]

It gets worse. The writers of the article linked by Stone are a father son team who are self proclaimed fascists who advocate for the government to kill gays.
posted by chris24 at 9:45 PM on July 31, 2016 [9 favorites]

Preibus: party will support Trump on debate date protest, despite the RNC being part of the commission that chose the dates in the first place.

Yep, I'm absolutely convinced that this "start hedging on the debates now" plan came from the RNC, not from Trump:

1. Trump does not think 2 months ahead. Ever.

2. Trump thinks he would win all of the debates.

I think someone at the RNC encouraged him to make those tweets.
posted by mmoncur at 9:48 PM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

So... that Roger Stone Twitter account seems legit (and legit fucking insane), but it does give me a microsecond's pause that it's not a verified account.
posted by dersins at 9:48 PM on July 31, 2016

I read a bit of the article. As far as I can tell, the main conceit is that if you put two sentences next to each other, there is by default a causal relationship between the two. Also, apparently being Muslim and writing about OPEC and being a student of what Sharia means inextricably entangles you with the Muslim Brotherhood. But certain readers will go words words words words words SEE HE'S A TERRORIST.
posted by vverse23 at 9:49 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Mike Pence Doesn’t Understand How Condoms Work
posted by Artw at 9:52 PM on July 31, 2016 [3 favorites]

Is that twitter account verified to be that person? Defamation on the internet gets thrown around enough to make it almost crackpot-sign, but that sure seems to be a pretty recklessly negligent statement of fact published to a lot of people. I mean, good luck proving damages, but still. (IANAInternetL)
posted by ctmf at 9:52 PM on July 31, 2016

If you believe the Washington Examiner got the right account in an earlier article about a Twitter war between Stone and Lewandowski, it's his real account.
posted by chris24 at 9:54 PM on July 31, 2016

Yeah, no, that's why I thought it seems legit. It is weird that it's not a verified account, but wevs.
posted by dersins at 9:57 PM on July 31, 2016

Trump is complaining that some of the debates are scheduled at the same time slot as NFL games... Sure looks like a hollow excuse that is really a non-issue, at least IMO.

Yesterday it was "the army should do away with wires and send everything via courier!" Today it's "how can someone who want's to watch football and the debate possibly do both?"

I kind of think there's a VCR blinking 12:00 somewhere in the Trump mansion.
posted by Kid Charlemagne at 10:02 PM on July 31, 2016 [21 favorites]

knowing stone, he probably left his account unverified to provide the tiniest fig-leaf of plausible deniability
posted by murphy slaw at 10:04 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

Daily Caller also has an article referencing that account as his and MMFA has a few articles on his tweets and his clean up of some of them disparaging FOX personalities.
posted by chris24 at 10:05 PM on July 31, 2016 [1 favorite]

My guess is they'll double down and press even harder. How is this not a landslide for Clinton? Have many Americans lost their minds?

Because Clinton had bad email habits and took money to give speeches so they're the same, see?
posted by Justinian at 10:07 PM on July 31, 2016 [9 favorites]

So ... odds that Trump retweets it?
posted by argybarg at 10:07 PM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

knowing stone, he probably left his account unverified to provide the tiniest fig-leaf of plausible deniability

"You slander gold star dads
Tweet with incivility
Don't verify accounts
So you can have deniability"

(Excerpt "The Ten Tweet Commandments," Trumpleton the Musical)
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:08 PM on July 31, 2016 [13 favorites]

My guess is they'll double down and press even harder. How is this not a landslide for Clinton? Have many Americans lost their minds?

Yes. At least 27% and possibly up to 40% of America would literally rather see open civil war than vote for any Democrat, much less arch-Democrat-literally-Satan-Hilary-Clinton.

You really have to live here and be steeped in the pervasive culture of 24/7 hate and disinformation that is rightwing radio and FOX News to understand how much of an alternate reality exists among people who only listen to those sources. And it fully explains the Donald Trump campaign, because that reality has now crossed over into the real world like the little girl crawling out of the TV in The Ring in the form of Trump.
posted by T.D. Strange at 10:11 PM on July 31, 2016 [29 favorites]

I stand by my earlier comment that every percentage point over the inevitable 27% is a national shame. This should not be who we are.
posted by RedOrGreen at 10:13 PM on July 31, 2016 [28 favorites]

I would totally vote Sadako over Trump, if only because she doesn't talk.
posted by rifflesby at 10:14 PM on July 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

I've mentioned this before, but I work at a private school with pretty strict rules about what sort of political content we can share on our social media. I've been sharing the Khan's story all over the place because it is such an affront to common decency (and because a large chunk of our parents are military) that I think my administration will let it pass.

Since I'm not supposed to share most political sentiment, however, I've decided to share one song a day with a song by a female musician with an unlabeled countdown to the election number. I think its subtle enough that they won't notice it.
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:18 PM on July 31, 2016 [4 favorites]

You partially have the neo-cons, namely Rove, to thank for the current shambles that allows trump to do nothing but score own-goals for the entire election season and still poll around ~40 some percent. Ratcheting up the vitriol was a deliberate move to make winning elections easier without ever having to concede policy to their poor, white base. A good part of that was the constant demonization of Hillary.
posted by codacorolla at 10:21 PM on July 31, 2016 [10 favorites]

As for "Washington and Oregon can do that because they don't have systemic racism" have you been to our fucking states? We are the states the white supremists literally founded during the civil war.

Well, yeah, that was one of my points that either I didn't spell out or you managed to misread. If you don't let black people into your state in the first place, then racists don't worry so much about them changing the outcome of elections. Compare that to, say, Alabama.

Vote-by-mail is a method. It's not a foolproof method: the 4th Circuit judgement on NC's voting laws noted that voter impersonation in absentee postal ballots had led to convictions within the state, but there had been no comparable cases of in-person voter impersonation. There's also the issue of secrecy and people being made to vote under duress. But that's all tangential to my core argument.

Voting methods (and all details of an electoral system) are merely the outward expression of the prevailing civic culture. Oregon's vote-by-mail succeeds because Oregon takes mass participation in elections seriously, takes the paper trail seriously, and locks people up for messing with postal ballots, whereas North Carolina shrugs ruefully at those who enact discriminatory voting laws, or even elevates them to the US Senate. Vote-by-mail on its own does not change the prevailing culture; it does not remove the prevailing belief among African-Americans that for their votes to be counted, they need to be cast in person, as near to the bare metal as possible.

I'm truly not ragging on Oregonians here: like humidity in August, you have to feel the institutional disregard for free and fair elections in certain states to understand it.

One long-term purpose of the VRA's preclearance rules was to force certain states to get disenfranchisement out of their systems and learn to live with the concept and consequences of free elections. Those states clearly haven't yet reached that point: as soon as SCOTUS removed preclearance, NC dropped its shitty discriminatory laws. Thanks, John Roberts.
posted by holgate at 10:44 PM on July 31, 2016 [7 favorites]

> It gets worse. The writers of the article linked by Stone are a father son team who are self proclaimed fascists who advocate for the government to kill gays.

Far Right “Anti-Jihad” Loon Walid Shoebat Smears Khizr Khan as “Muslim Brotherhood Plant”
posted by homunculus at 10:50 PM on July 31, 2016

Roger Stone, a nihilistic Trump-adjacent bastard, is either trying the "make him deny it" gambit through his outsourced fuckweasels, or the Lynton Crosby "dead cat strategy".

The appropriate response for Mr Khan is to ask "why does Donald Trump have such terrible people on his side, and why do Paul Ryan and Mitch McConnell remain on the same side as such terrible people?"
posted by holgate at 10:53 PM on July 31, 2016 [9 favorites]

Trump was reportedly trapped inside an elevator at The Mining Exchange Hotel with ten other people 30 minutes before the event was scheduled to begin at 2 p.m.

I feel like this is backwards in this sense.

It must be noted that many of the most fervent Post-Bernie leftists are Single Issue Voters; they're not any more likely to vote for someone supporting a FPP treaty in any form than a "Pro-Lifer" would vote for anyone opposing overturning Roe V. Wade. And they'll both be quite comfortable voting for Trump.

That was brutally obvious when they started slamming Kaine, of the Nationwide Mutual case, as a bankster.
posted by phearlez at 10:57 PM on July 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

> One long-term purpose of the VRA's preclearance rules was to force certain states to get disenfranchisement out of their systems and learn to live with the concept and consequences of free elections.

Yeah, I think however there needs to be a more proscriptive approach to it at this point. Not just "stop fucking around" but "this is what you do." We have two states with proven data and metrics around successful implementations of these policies, it could be reused for others.

(Also we both have legal weed, how's that for a platform: mail in ballots, free with every joint)
posted by mrzarquon at 10:59 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

no, no. free joint with every ballot.
posted by murphy slaw at 11:04 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

You really have to live here and be steeped in the pervasive culture of 24/7 hate and disinformation that is rightwing radio and FOX News to understand how much of an alternate reality exists among people who only listen to those sources.
posted by T.D. Strange at 12:11 AM on August 1

Oh, trust me, I live here. I was born in IL and have lived my entire, now middle aged life here.

Having said that, I, long ago, learned that I couldn't maintain my sanity with even the slightest exposure to the media outlets you mention. It's bad enough that my siblings (one of whom is a daily Rush listener, and the other who could perhaps be complicit in the genocide of homosexuals) occasionally mention that Trump is the obvious choice. It's all I can do to hold my tongue in the interest of not starting a huge family fight.

Needless to say, I am truly flabbergasted by the insanity being exhibited by so many americans. Truly frightening.
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 11:04 PM on July 31, 2016 [2 favorites]

In other words: the more access and the easier it is for people to vote, the harder the people who want to alter the outcome have to work to alter the results. Instead of influencing 500 voters they have to influence 5000.

There's no consistent evidence that vote by mail increases turnout. It's not even that it's not a magic bullet; some studies have found lower turnout (IIRC because the longer window can reduce interest below the point where they're activated enough to bother filling it out?). There are other you'd-think-it-would-help things that have little or no effect; IIRC early voting is among them.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:09 PM on July 31, 2016

> I'm truly not ragging on Oregonians here: like humidity in August, you have to feel the institutional disregard for free and fair elections in certain states to understand it.

Also, long before my time living in Oregon, I got to spend time with SCSJ/SPLC folks and other voters rights advocates in Selma, Alabama for a while, including also running into the "Friends of Nathan Forester." I'm not saying vote by mail fixes everything, but forcing a system with paper trails on it on those states (cause honestly, after the bullshit the NC legislature pulled, its deserved) exposes it.

It was from the time with SCSJ group, post 2000 election, where I really got to realize how essential voter turn out is in terms of fighting voter fraud. It's not about making voting harder, but make it easier - the higher the voter turn out, the harder it is to manipulate them - because your conspiracy requires more people and more numbers to make an impact. I remember talking to a journalist about how given the voter turn out in Florida and the narrow margins, a bribe to the right guy driving one of those ballot vans to throw a single box from a black neighborhood over a bridge would have been enough to sway the election.

Going back to vote by mail - that has the 'handshake' of "this block got 100 votes, if we only count 50, thats a problem"
posted by mrzarquon at 11:09 PM on July 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

the thing that really gets me about this election is that, as a lifelong democrat, there have been times in the last couple of decades where i have wondered if i am too far inside my own bubble to see the reasonable politicians in the republican party; that maybe i have demonized the people on the other side of the aisle too much.

and now i come to find out that i've been giving them too much credit all along.
posted by murphy slaw at 11:12 PM on July 31, 2016 [35 favorites]

Republican national security leaders repudiate Trump
posted by foxy_hedgehog at 11:14 PM on July 31, 2016 [22 favorites]

That list of signatories goes on for days.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:19 PM on July 31, 2016 [5 favorites]

Watching more and more Republicans run away from Trump every day would be a whole lot more enjoyable if the stakes weren't so high. Instead of pointing and laughing, I really want to welcome them.

Because the stakes really are that high.
posted by yesster at 11:22 PM on July 31, 2016 [12 favorites]

the dateline on that letter is march 2, 2016. It was before the RNC, even before Kasich and Cruz dropped out of the race. it appears to have slowed down trump not at all.
posted by murphy slaw at 11:25 PM on July 31, 2016 [7 favorites]

The site he links to, which is one of the least reputable looking websites I've seen in a while

This is one of the least reputable campaigns I've seen in some time. I have no idea how these people got their heads wedged into their assholes, or why.
posted by biogeo at 11:28 PM on July 31, 2016 [15 favorites]

Well, CNN has posted a Surely This? article about the Khan incidents.

Also they refer to him "trying to squirm" out of the debates. I hadn't realized what a great word for Trump "squirm" was until now.
posted by mmoncur at 11:30 PM on July 31, 2016 [9 favorites]

From the CNN article:

"What he's saying is that Mr. Trump has a right to defend himself, to make clear what he's saying is this is about Islamic terrorism, for him to be criticized like that he didn't think was fair," Trump aide Jason Miller told CNN's Brian Stelter on "Reliable Sources" Sunday.

What the ever-loving fuck? He didn't think it was fair? This monstrous human filth thinks that a grieving parent standing up for the values his child died for treated him "unfairly?" This unconscionably evil and stupid man lashed out at a father of a fallen soldier for pointing out how misshapen and wrong headed his views on Muslims are? Are you shitting me? Not fair? How did I not know how deeply I could despise somebody before now? I wish the worst thing I can possibly wish on Trump and that's that he finally sees himself as he truly is - a venal, venomous ulcer of a human being and one not deserving of anything but contempt and loathing.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:49 PM on July 31, 2016 [31 favorites]

It's not just Trump, it is also the entire support staff, like this "Jason Miller" who are equally culpable for his mendacity. They back him up.

Trump is an unhinged, evil stain upon humanity. But there's a whole lot of people keeping him going every day. Their continued contributions to his campaign are unforgivable at this point.
posted by yesster at 11:58 PM on July 31, 2016 [14 favorites]

Last Week Tonight with John Oliver
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:03 AM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

Wait, I've lost track. Is "Jason Miller" one of the aides who is secretly Trump doing a voice?
posted by mmoncur at 2:26 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

@realDonaldTrump: Wow, it is unbelievable how distorted, one-sided and biased the media is against us. The failing @nytimes is a joke. @CNN is laughable!
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 2:42 AM on August 1, 2016

Wow. I've seen John Oliver get emotional before, but his barely constrained rage at the end of his anti-Trump diatribe was pretty intense.
posted by xyzzy at 2:42 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

No lie is too big for Trump. Delete your campaign.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:49 AM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

Aaaand I just came back from fetching morning coffee and made the mistake of listening to NPR, where they had on a guest that said Trump was merely inarticulately describing Kissinger's position on Crimea and the Ukraine.

I'm sorry. You cannot convince me that this is true and I am getting extremely tired of media organizations spending so much time trying to contextualize Trump and reformat his remarks into less ignorant and therefore more palatable versions of them.
posted by xyzzy at 3:21 AM on August 1, 2016 [32 favorites]

Kahn is my hero. I think he is a template for others and how they can attack Trump and win. I want to see 1,000 Kahns!
posted by cell divide at 4:11 AM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

Apparently, Mr. Khan was on CNN this morning, because Trump is back at it, attacking him on Twitter. I really don't see how he thinks this is going to help him.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:18 AM on August 1, 2016

The Khans are amazing - but someone in the Clinton camp needs to relieve them of the burden they are taking on. They should not be standing there alone against this obnoxious bully
posted by mumimor at 4:27 AM on August 1, 2016 [42 favorites]

It's like Trump is moving down the campaign ladder instead of up it. Instead of running against Clinton, he's been running against Ted Cruz, then against a local fire marshall, than against a soldier's parents.

I assume he'll be running against household pets next?

It's amazing to me that apparently Trump has no advisors at all, or doesn't listen to them. Because there's no political operative, no matter how republican or how incompetent, who would advise a presidential candidate to double down on attacking bereaved parents.
posted by mmoncur at 4:27 AM on August 1, 2016 [19 favorites]

Wait, I've lost track. Is "Jason Miller" one of the aides who is secretly Trump doing a voice?

That's all Meredith, dude
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:46 AM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

You would think so, mmoncur, but Paul Manafort was doubling down on Trump's "positions" and then literally lying to Chuck Todd on Meet the Press yesterday. For instance, he threw out that of course Khan is a hero, etc. etc. but ISLAMIC TERROR IS THE ISSUE and the MEDIA IS USING CLINTON TALKING POINTS. Then he segued into some non sequitur about "Secretary Obama" and "President Clinton" and how their policies caused ISIS to become a thing in 2009. Nevermind that ISIS was formed as a result of the Baathist purge after the Iraq invasion of 2003, which Clinton voted for but Bush & Co. initiated and made the case for.

By all accounts, Manafort is a smooth operator* worth every penny he charges to empower dictators and run false-flag ops in foreign countries, but somehow he cannot control Trump and ends up looking idiotic to anyone with a clue on pretty soft shows like Meet the Press. I can't even understand how someone can manage Ferdinand freaking Marcos but not The freaking Donald.

* Link is to Slate profile of Paul Manafort.
posted by xyzzy at 4:51 AM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yeah, my mind boggles at the "Islamic terror is the real issue" line.

What does that mean?

Islamic terror is the "real issue" with Khan, because he's Muslim and therefore a terrorist?

Or Islamic terror is the "real issue" of the entire election?

I honestly don't even get it.
posted by mmoncur at 4:57 AM on August 1, 2016

They think the words "radical Islamic terrorism" have some sort of totemic power. Like every time they say the words on TV, an independent is compelled by the power to vote Republican.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:06 AM on August 1, 2016 [14 favorites]

I don't think it's a coherent position. I think it's throwing together a bunch of phrases and dog-whistles and assuming that his potential supporters aren't looking for coherent positions.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:06 AM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

It's a clumsy attempt to get Khan's name adjacent to "Islamic terrorist" in print for people with poor reading comprehension or susceptibility to subliminal messaging.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:07 AM on August 1, 2016 [17 favorites]

I think they see it as Trump vs. Muslims, which may in fact be a winner with voters.
posted by argybarg at 5:22 AM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

They think the words "radical Islamic terrorism" have some sort of totemic power. Like every time they say the words on TV, an independent is compelled by the power to vote Republican.

You also see this in the emphasis they place on Obama saying the words "radical Islamic terrorism." I think I've heard three times as much about Obama not saying "radical Islam" as I have about actual substantive terrorism policy from Trump, et al.. It's some combination of a belief in the magical power of words, a desire to associate Islam with terrorism as directly as possible, and a pathological hatred of nuance.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 5:24 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's a clumsy attempt to get Khan's name adjacent to "Islamic terrorist" in print for people with poor reading comprehension or susceptibility to subliminal messaging.

And it totally works, so I'm not sure about "clumsy".

The question is: Do you want the country to be more like Mr. Khan and his wife or less like them?
The answer is quite obvious for most people. And while I'm sure it's "more" for most people here on MeFi, the answer will be "less" for most Americans, regardless of how heroic or patriotic they are or how many sons they lost in Iraq.

There may have been some high-profile Repulicans that condemned Trump's reaction, but I think we need to wait until the dust settles to see whether it really had an effect on the polls, and, more importantly, in what direction that effect actually went.
posted by sour cream at 5:24 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

...like the little girl crawling out of the TV in The Ring in the form of Trump.

I will never sleep again.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:37 AM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

Nate Silver: "In all polls so far, Clinton's improved relative to the pre-convention version of the polls. IOW, she's gotten a larger bump than Trump..."
posted by Potomac Avenue at 5:40 AM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

McCain slams Trump over Khan fight
posted by Artw at 5:48 AM on August 1, 2016 [11 favorites]

"Trump's bump slumps, post-convention hump hits the dumps," said the cigar-chewing, graphite-stain fingered reporter who lives in my head.
posted by Tevin at 5:48 AM on August 1, 2016 [35 favorites]

7-point bump in CBS poll, Clinton now up by 7
posted by argybarg at 5:55 AM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

Oh thank fucking God.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:56 AM on August 1, 2016 [11 favorites]

Sam Wang is saying a 7% Clinton post-Convention bounce
posted by Francis at 5:57 AM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

Stay on target! Stay on target!
posted by drezdn at 6:01 AM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

Thumped in rump, grump's bump slumps to dump! Gump's poll jump pumped into sump in clumps and lumps! Plump chump Trump stumped.
posted by kyrademon at 6:01 AM on August 1, 2016 [26 favorites]

McCain slams Trump over Khan fight

The question is, does he still support him? If so, it's less a "slam" than a wrist-slap.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:02 AM on August 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

My report from canvassing yesterday: still ran into a couple of Bernie or Busters, both of whom were white men (and one of whom lived in a very big, fancy house and said he was voting for Gary Johnson), but people seemed a lot more enthusiastic about Hillary than they did the week before.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:02 AM on August 1, 2016 [18 favorites]

My impression is that McCain has all but come right out and said, "I hate Trump's guts and think he's a vile human being, but I'm in an election season myself right now so I have to keep a fig leaf in place because people suck and I hate all of you, get off my lawn."
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:05 AM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

Be interesting to see what he says in September, when he's either in or out.
posted by Artw at 6:15 AM on August 1, 2016

Chelsea Clinton is right: A Wrinkle in Time is amazing
posted by Artw at 6:22 AM on August 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

Francis: "Sam Wang is saying a 7% Clinton post-Convention bounce"

I love this at the bottom of the post: "If you have a data-based comment, the comments section will be turned on later."

Sam Wang isn't going to tolerate "They only polled 1400 voters, that doesn't mean anything!" comments from people who don't understand statistics.
posted by octothorpe at 6:23 AM on August 1, 2016 [16 favorites]

Pence. Ugh. I have a particular disgust for the "abstinence-only" crowd. They would rather their children get pregnant or an STD then to say, "Look, I believe that saving yourself for marriage is the best idea-- here is why... But if you do have sex please use a condom because it will keep you safe."

It is the same crowd that don't allow their children to get the HPV vaccine because sex should come with penalties, I guess. Common sense should tell them that if your daughter is a virgin on her wedding day that doesn't mean she will never be exposed to the human papillomavirus, but let's just stick our heads in the sand and pretend that sex outside of marriage never happens.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:23 AM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

The question is, does he still support him? If so, it's less a "slam" than a wrist-slap.

Perhaps the most telling sign of how completely nuts politics is at the moment is that you have to (legitimately!) ask that question even after McCain literally stated that his party's chosen presidential nominee's statements "do not represent the views of [the party], its officers, or candidates.".

What crazy fucked up world do we live in at this point, where literally nothing Trump says could get the RNC or its leaders to actually disavow him?
posted by tocts at 6:25 AM on August 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

Lots of visitors today at Capt. #HumayunKhan's @ArlingtonNatl gravesite. Individuals. Families.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:29 AM on August 1, 2016 [32 favorites]

can we declare a moratorium on shit/corn analogies

Yeah, maybe it's time to reopen talks regarding a Strategic Coprophagic Analogy Treaty.
posted by john hadron collider at 6:33 AM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

At a certain point in time you have to be wondering if Trump is actually trying to derail his candidacy in the most egregious way possible.

"I don't know Ivanka, I've tried to insult Latinos and Muslims and Women but the polls still show me competitive, I'm trying my hardest to lose but no matter what crazy thing I say these Republicans still keep supporting me. I need something YUUGE to really get them going OMG this dude is crazy"

"I know dad, we've been trying the vague incest theme and apparently a lot of Republicans don't mind a dad groping their daughter as long as they are 'hot', have you thought about somehow insulting the troops?"

"I've been doing that and somehow I still get cheers for saying the military is in shambles. Maybe I should find a war hero to slam other than McCain."

"Well the Democrats have a whole lot of military types speaking during their convention, maybe you can call out this Marine General or maybe Tammy Duckworth"

"Nah, too easy of targets, I know I'll call out the parents of a Muslim war hero, and when people call out my bad behavior I'll double or even triple down"
posted by vuron at 6:37 AM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

It is the same crowd that don't allow their children to get the HPV vaccine because sex should come with penalties, I guess. Common sense should tell them that if your daughter is a virgin on her wedding day that doesn't mean she will never be exposed to the human papillomavirus, but let's just stick our heads in the sand and pretend that sex outside of marriage never happens.

Or they are so sure that their daughter isn't going to sleep around[barf] that there's no need to get this thing. I mostly see that via some acquaintances and their friends on Facebook, and I just can't bring myself to be awful enough to say "hey, you know not all the sex women have is because they want it and agree to it, right? Should that come with cancer, too?" But I think it, and I feel bad for their kids. Because even if they are exactly who their parents assume they're going to be, who's to say that husband they saved themselves [barf] for isn't coming into the marriage already carrying HPV?
posted by phearlez at 6:37 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

McCain:

“I cannot emphasize enough how deeply I disagree with Mr. Trump’s statement. I hope Americans understand that the remarks do not represent the views of our Republican Party, its officers, or candidates.”

Sorry, Senator, but YES THEY DO.

The guy that made those remarks was ELECTED BY REPUBLICANS TO REPRESENT THEM and endorsed by you, Senator McCain.

Unless and until you say "I do not endorse Trump" he does represent you.

At least you called him by name, though, unlike some people. I'll give you credit for that.
posted by mmoncur at 6:37 AM on August 1, 2016 [46 favorites]

Chelsea Clinton is right: A Wrinkle in Time is amazing

I was watching with a crowd of other people at a Clinton campaign office and right after Chelsea said this the stream got hung up and the video froze, leading inevitably to shouts of "It's a wrinkle in time!", and someone had to go press "refresh" on the laptop.
posted by XMLicious at 6:40 AM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

I will say, the gift of Trump to his opponents is that his campaign is consistently and comprehensively terrible. If he just had a few outlier gaffes, no matter how large, eventually they would stop mattering. But he has yet to say anything about Russia, for instance, that doesn't sound unbearably inept, and he says it over and over, in differently awful configurations, then re-amplifies it as it's dying down. And does anyone doubt there will be many more moments of brain-damaged behavior? I have to think that even the lowest-information voters are getting this picture now.
posted by argybarg at 6:40 AM on August 1, 2016

Honestly McCain should just say fuck it and retire and then go off on Trumpzilla.

He's double fucked at this point because there is no way to thread the needle.

Either you repudiate Trump and risk losing all the racists in Arizona (which is not an insignificant number) or you fail to repudiate him and risk pissing off all the veterans (which is also not an insignificant number).

McCain seems to be thinking that his former service will provide a least a little cover from criticisms from the veteran's camps but actually attacking Trump will definitely cost him the election.

Seems like a smart Democrat might link Trump and McCain in an ad and then end with something like "For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul..."

McCain might be willing to barter in his soul for materialistic goals but are all of his supporters in the same camp?
posted by vuron at 6:46 AM on August 1, 2016 [17 favorites]

> wiggle free of the two-party duopoly

I desperately need this to be an album: "Wiggle Free!" from [a band called] The Two Party Duopoly. Full of irresistibly danceable doo-wop, of course. (Maybe irresistibly danceable doo-wop covers of political songs?)

Please, MeFiMusic, make this happen.
posted by Westringia F. at 6:47 AM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

I will say, the gift of Trump to his opponents is that his campaign is consistently and comprehensively terrible.

Yes, but I'm worried that ckape is right about the Montgomery Burns Immune System theory. None of the terrible stuff can hurt his campaign because there are too many things to focus on. Tomorrow it will be "Russia? Kahn? Forget that, Trump kicked a puppy!" and we'll never hold him completely accountable.
posted by mmoncur at 6:49 AM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

"I've been doing that and somehow I still get cheers for saying the military is in shambles.

Yes I noticed in his last speech that Pence talked about "rebuilding" the military. What the hell? Has the military been dismantled while I wasn't looking? I know it is always fully funded because no one dares vote against a military appropriations bill. (Also I remember when McCain was running there was his remark about how our navy has so few ships now, which was smacked down as sheer nonsense.) The Trump campaign is planning on increasing the size of the military? God help us. How much more do we need to spend on the military?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:50 AM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Important data point: the Montgomery Burns Immune System theory is fictional.
posted by argybarg at 6:50 AM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

At a certain point in time you have to be wondering if Trump is actually trying to derail his candidacy in the most egregious way possible.

Or he's exactly the idiot he appears to be. Everything that is suprising about his behavior comes from either overestimating him or trying to ascribe complexity to a person who has none.
posted by Artw at 6:50 AM on August 1, 2016 [22 favorites]

I just can't bring myself to be awful enough to say "hey, you know not all the sex women have is because they want it and agree to it, right? Should that come with cancer, too?"

I don't think it would help. Often they believe that rape only happens to "bad girls", and if their daughters dress and behave modestly enough, and avoid bad places like nightclubs, they'll be fine.
posted by happyroach at 6:58 AM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Josh Marshall: Understanding the Trump-Khan War.
posted by ltl at 7:00 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Regarding the "rebuilding the military" line: a lot of folks on the right are talking about this (the manpower in the armed forces having been drawn down to pre-WWII levels).

The idea that a headcount might not be the surest indication of military strength in the era of drone warfare is not capable of penetrating the "Obama has made us weak" line, if my argument with Trump-supporting family members is any indication.
posted by Chanther at 7:00 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

I think that to the Trump base, the amateur, ridiculous nature of his campaign is a feature, not a bug. The more badly photohopped his ads are, the more he can clearly not be controlled by his managers, the more haphazard his campaign schedule and the more he just completely ignores the way that political campaigning has always been done, the more his people love him because they're the same people who think that being an expert at something automatically makes you a too-big-for-your-britches elite. They are reacting against the complexity of the world. They are rejecting that reality and substituting it with their own wished-for world where things are simple, easy, common-sensical, and any random person off the street can do any job, anywhere, at any time.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:00 AM on August 1, 2016 [41 favorites]

So, one of the other people on another forum I frequent has created What The Fuck Has Trump Done? They're looking for submissions, too.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:00 AM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

I would really like to get back to Trump's statement that he has been "viciously attacked" by Mr. Khan. It's a stunning stance from a Presidential candidate. It shows his inexperience in campaigning (also his thin-skin.) When you hit the campaign trail, you get hit on all sides for your past, for your words, for your plans, for your appearance, for your acquaintances, for your omissions, etc. It is really just one big criticism festival. I guess for too long Trump has basked in the adoration of thousands at his rallies and has become deluded.

At the RNC it was Hillary-hate non-stop to the point of chanting "lock her up." I don't see her pointing fingers and crying that she has been "viciously attacked."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:00 AM on August 1, 2016 [32 favorites]

"For what shall it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his soul..."

narrated by Morgan Freeman
posted by Meatbomb at 7:01 AM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

It's a stunning stance

He's a malignant narcissist. The only attacks that register with him are attacks on him.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:02 AM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

♫ It's Springtime for Donald ♫ and USA ♫
♫ Winter for ♫ Muslim Mexicans ♫
♪ Watch out, Europe ♪
♪ We're going on tour! ♪
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:03 AM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

argybarg: I have to think that even the lowest-information voters are getting this picture now.

The problem is, that's his platform: unfiltered bombast. It has been since the beginning. And after watching Samantha Bee interview ardent Trump supporters, there are enough people who want the bully to be ~~class~~ president that he's doing well in polls.

I noticed in his last speech that Pence talked about "rebuilding" the military. What the hell? Has the military been dismantled while I wasn't looking

This is also in keeping with Trump's message: America is a mess, and only I my and my VP can fix it. They don't need truth, they just need truthiness and enough people to believe them that they win the election.

NoxAeternum: What The Fuck Has Trump Done?

I love it - the anti-WTF Has Obama Done So Far?
posted by filthy light thief at 7:03 AM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump will be holding a rally in Mechanicsburg tonight at Cumberland Valley High School.

Great. Another high school gym. I hope the fire marshals are prepared.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:04 AM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

The families of 17 service members killed in the line of duty on Monday demanded Donald Trump apologize for attacking the Khan family, saying his remarks are "cheapening the sacrifice made by those we lost."

In a letter addressed to the GOP nominee, the Gold Star families, a military distinction for those who have lost a family member in the line of duty, called Trump's attacking the Khans "repugnant and personally offensive."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:10 AM on August 1, 2016 [19 favorites]

So, the Roger Stone twitter link led me down a rabbit-hole of anti-Islamic hell, of course. I need to learn to stop clicking. But I am amazed at the sheer volume of smear-memes already in existence around Khizr and Ghazala Khan. I ain't linking to any of that shit. But I'm somewhat terrified. This didn't just strike a nerve with the anti-Trump crowd. The whole Trump Anti Islamic Movement is quadrupling down. They're tying the Khans in with all manner of conspiracies and treasons. Those poor parents lost their son and spoke out against anti-Muslim policies that would have denied their patriotic, heroic son a chance to serve. And this is what they get.
posted by Cookiebastard at 7:10 AM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

@ShaneGoldmacher No denial here Manafort, unpaid by Trump, is on payroll of Putin-backed Ukrainian leaders http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/08/01/us/paul-manafort-ukraine-donald-trump.html …
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:11 AM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

Former Donald Trump campaign manager Corey Lewandowski got in quite the fight with Christine Quinn on Monday morning

Khizr Khan appeared on CNN alongside his wife Ghazala this morning, where they addressed the feud of sorts as Trump blasted them on Twitter. On CNN’s New Day, Lewandowski accused the media of glazing over Trump calling Khan’s son a hero for his service, though Poppy Harlow grilled him over Trump fanning the flames of the feud.

Lewandowski insisted that Capt. Humayun Khan would still be alive if Trump were president because Trump would never have approved the Iraq War, even though previous recordings of Trump on the matter might suggest otherwise. Lewandowski also said that attacking Khan was fair game because of his decision to become a public figure with his emotional speech at the DNC.

So attacking Khan is fair game. Got it. That's going to be their stance. My guess is that Trump is not going to rest until he can drag up something from Mr. or Mrs. Khan's past that makes them look less than perfect. Or maybe he will go for their son, the American hero.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:12 AM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think that to the Trump base, the amateur, ridiculous nature of his campaign is a feature, not a bug.

Exactly! It's the logical end of the Republicans spending the last thirty years hammering on the idea that experts are not to be trusted. If you can't trust competent people then obviously incompetent people are more trustworthy because they are at least telling the truth about who they are.

This makes no sense to me whatsoever but I was never the target audience, not being a Straussian or a 'mainstreet American'.
posted by winna at 7:13 AM on August 1, 2016 [16 favorites]

Well, I do agree that attacking Khan is fair game.

It's like when my daughter says "No I'm not going to bed!" She can choose (to a point) to not go to bed ...

... but the consequences will be steep and probably unanticipated.
posted by Tevin at 7:16 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

He's a malignant narcissist. The only attacks that register with him are attacks on him.

I agree with Hilary: "A man you can bait with a tweet is not a man we can trust with nuclear weapons."

But the non-stop blustering of Trump has broken the political norm: this morning on her weekly appearance on NPR (audio only right now, transcript up later), Cokie Roberts said that Hilary would do better to spend her campaign funds on Get Out the Vote efforts, because televised political ads don't carry any weight against Trump.

Trump gets so much free publicity that you can't out-spend him, and he can easily tweet a response to any ad against him and get even more free TV airtime.

And then there's the fact that his fooking former campaign manager is on CNN as a talking head. Sure, he was fired, but he's still shilling for Trump. Fuck CNN, Fuck Corey.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:18 AM on August 1, 2016 [12 favorites]

I think that to the Trump base, the amateur, ridiculous nature of his campaign is a feature, not a bug.

Fine. But it's a feature that will probably permanently limit Trump's numbers to about 43% at the high end. And if it gets really unhinged (which I suspect it will) he may lose a few points off of that.
posted by argybarg at 7:20 AM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

This is the turning point. It's all downhill from here for Trump's popularity. Whatever the opposite of Swift Boating is, Trump just got it. He'll be selling fucking knives on QVC with Sarah Palin before this decade is over. Bye Boy.

Oh, my sweet summer child...
posted by zombieflanders at 7:20 AM on August 1, 2016 [46 favorites]

My guess is that Trump is not going to rest until he can drag up something from Mr. or Mrs. Khan's past that makes them look less than perfect.

I won't link to it, but yeah, that was inevitable and I'm sure the Khans knew it was coming. Cal Thomas is linking to a conspiracy site purporting to show that Khan is a member of the Muslim Brotherhood and a secret Jihadi intent on bringing over more Muslims to America to install Sharia Law.

They're going to try to smear him away.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 7:23 AM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

This is the turning point. It's all downhill from here for Trump's popularity. Whatever the opposite of Swift Boating is, Trump just got it. He'll be selling fucking knives on QVC with Sarah Palin before this decade is over. Bye Boy.

I hope you're right. I really do. Because if just one of those Trumps gets into the oval office, it will manage to wipe out our entire country in less than 24 hours.
posted by cashman at 7:23 AM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

Oh, my sweet summer child...

While I agree with your sentiment that there really is no bridge too far for his 40%, I think there is for the general electorate. And whether this is it or not, I think Trump will cross it before November and Clinton will win in a closer than should be but clear fashion.
posted by chris24 at 7:23 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Cokie Roberts said that Hilary would do better to spend her campaign funds on Get Out the Vote efforts, because televised political ads don't carry any weight against Trump.

If only there were people in the media ecosystem -- let's call them "journalists" -- who could change that dynamic by accurately reporting how dangerous Trump's candidacy is. Cokie should try to track someone like that down.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:24 AM on August 1, 2016 [52 favorites]

I think it's also important to remember that the 40% isn't 40% of the US population, it's 40% of likely voters. Which means that the real work here is turning "unlikely voters" into "likely voters" by November 8.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:25 AM on August 1, 2016 [18 favorites]

Tevin: Well, I do agree that attacking Khan is fair game.

No, that's pushing the line beyond what has been general political practice. The Khans aren't part of Hilary's usual support presentation. They're not poster people for her campaign. From what I've seen and heard, they're not like Cindy Sheehan, who is an activist. They're supporters of Hilary who shared their personal experiences.

But then Trump attacked the Khans because Ghazala was silent and made stupid claims about their faith. So she spoke up, and he escalated.

You can't win against Trump in a war of words. He'll say something so awful that you won't stoop to his level, or if you do, you're down to his level and you've lost.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:26 AM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

I think it's also important to remember that the 40% isn't 40% of the US population, it's 40% of likely voters. Which means that the real work here is turning "unlikely voters" into "likely voters" by November 8.

Very much this. I was playing with one of those poll thingys (forget where) and the Clinton lead jumps dramatically when you go from "likely voters" to "registered voters." The more voters, the better she does.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:30 AM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

for him to be criticized like that he didn't think was fair

This coming after Benghazi Night! and constant cries for Hillary Clinton to be jailed during the RNC.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:31 AM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

If only there were people in the media ecosystem -- let's call them "journalists" -- who could change that dynamic by accurately reporting how dangerous Trump's candidacy is. Cokie should try to track someone like that down.

Plenty of journalists are saying how dangerous Trump would be. Except there are a LOT of "journalists," and hours upon hours of airtime to fill, and miles upon miles of ink to spill to get eyeballs. The Houston Chronicle pledged their support for Hilary and wrote the following:

Any one of Trump's less-than-sterling qualities - his erratic temperament, his dodgy business practices, his racism, his Putin-like strongman inclinations and faux-populist demagoguery, his contempt for the rule of law, his ignorance - is enough to be disqualifying. His convention-speech comment, "I alone can fix it," should make every American shudder. He is, we believe, a danger to the Republic.

It's telling that so many Republicans have distanced themselves from their party's nominee. That sizeable list includes a number of prominent Texans, Bush family members foremost among them, as well as Sen. Cruz and House Speaker Joe Straus. These stalwart Republicans are concerned not only about the future of their party (and, with the exception of the two Bush presidents, their own political careers), but, more important, they're concerned about the future of this nation.

They then go on to break down their reasons for supporting Hilary over Donnie under the headings of Experience, The issues, Immigration reform, Health care, Energy, Foreign affairs, and Temperament.

But if only someone would detail the reasons why Trump is awful, then his supporters would realize the errors of their ways.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:33 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

His supporters don't care if he is good, they care if he is strong. As it becomes more and more clear than he is going to lose and as he demonstrates more and more weakness, they will simply slink back to their lives, like a mob once it's clear there will be no burning here today.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:37 AM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

Hillary Clinton Made Me Cry by Sarah Vowell
posted by gladly at 7:39 AM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

People dislike Hillary (I don't), but she won't be actively unpleasant and the pressures of campaigning won't break her. Trump will be at his absolute worst for the next three months.
posted by argybarg at 7:40 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

octothorpe: The amazing thing is that the Khan's speech was a fairly minor feature of the democratic convention. If Trump had just left the subject alone, we'd barely remember it by this time but he keeps bringing it back into conversation.

Better yet, Fox News went to commercial as the speech began, showing slightly more than two minutes of the speech in a small window as commercials -- including a Benghazi attack ad -- overplayed it.

If Trump let this slide, a ton of conservatives may have even missed that it happened at all. But force must be met with force, words for words, so he had to fight to defend himself.

Oh wait, no he didn't. He attacked the silent woman who chose to stay silent as she was grieving. I would hope this would negatively impact his campaign, but I doubt it.

And even if (oh please oh please oh please) he loses in November, he'll be just as loud as he was before, sniping from the sidelines. Let's remember, he was a proud 'birther' and he claimed that Hillary Clinton and John McCain were both birthers. And Sarah Palin hasn't faded from sight - she still gets attention for her political comments.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:40 AM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

I doubt Trump will again be closer than 7-8% down. By election day it will be solid double digits. By the end of this decade, he'll be either living in Florida divorced, hosting meet & greets at strip clubs or in jail for fraud.

trump has a built in audience of millions of aggrieved people who love and admire his personality (and his ability to stick it to groups that they hate). He's a media mogul first and foremost, who has had more success with his reality TV empire than any other venture. I wouldn't be surprised if he formed his own media network after November, assuming that something terrible doesn't happen.
posted by codacorolla at 7:42 AM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

I wouldn't be surprised if he formed his own media network after November,

He'll probably just license his name to Fox News.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 7:44 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Cokie Roberts said that Hilary would do better to spend her campaign funds on Get Out the Vote efforts, because televised political ads don't carry any weight against Trump.

What? Does Cokie Roberts actually think most Americans watch cable news, or otherwise deliberately follow political news? They do not. Political ads are not meant to sway political junkies. They are meant to reach everyone else.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:45 AM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

"And even if (oh please oh please oh please) he loses in November, he'll be just as loud as he was before, sniping from the sidelines."

I think the difference is that he will be universally loathed by his own base when/if he goes down in flames for bungling an election they thought was very winnable (and probably was, though the fundamentals seem to mostly favor Clinton) -- especially if they can pinpoint specific events where his bizarre and erratic behavior cost the party. I think if he's on the ballot in November and gets creamed he's persona non grata for the rest of his life pretty much everywhere.

" I wouldn't be surprised if he formed his own media network after November"

But I think Trump realizes this too, and so I still think there's a decent chance this happens *before* November. If Trump TV is his endgame the brand is much stronger if he bails out before the election rather than after. What he ought to do is manufacture a reason to drop out that lets him retain his brand and credibility as an "aggrieved winner" rather than let the balloon get popped once and for all on Election Day.
posted by gerryblog at 7:47 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

I doubt Trump will again be closer than 7-8% down.

The race will be well within the MOE in 2-3 weeks.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:47 AM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm not sure ge can go back to light general appeal stuff like The Apprentice though, being that:

A) it relies on his image as a business success story and it's too apparent that he's not now
B) its difficult to appreciate him as a clown now his virulent sexism and racism have moved to the fore.

I suspect media-wise, should he fail, his future mostly lies in being given vast amounts of money to address audiences of assholes.
posted by Artw at 7:48 AM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

Ngl, I'm excited to see how Trump reacts to the Olympics stealing his spotlight for two whole weeks.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:51 AM on August 1, 2016 [18 favorites]

What he ought to do is manufacture a reason to drop out that lets him retain his brand and credibility as an "aggrieved winner" rather than let the balloon get popped once and for all on Election Day.

Wanted to add that if he is on the ballot it seems like he will refuse to concede or legitimate Clinton's victory -- and will almost certainly allege fraud -- which along with the various other pressures currently building up in the demographic basis of the two parties could lead to a genuinely scary legitimacy crisis for the country next year. It already seems increasingly likely that the Supreme Court won't be able to gain new members until the same party has control of both the executive and the Senate; given how they treated Obama and how they've treated her, one wonders if they'll allow Clinton to fill any postings at all anywhere in the government.
posted by gerryblog at 7:52 AM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

I suspect media-wise, should he fail, his future mostly lies in being given vast amounts of money to address audiences of assholes.

Motion to refer to this move henceforth as "pulling a Dennis Miller"
posted by middleclasstool at 7:52 AM on August 1, 2016 [11 favorites]

Eh. I doubt the overwhelming majority of Americans, much less viewers of The Apprentice, have figured out he's not a successful business man. The stuff we all focus on - not releasing tax returns, stories about cheap buildings, bankruptcy - don't really fight the narrative for them because they haven't even heard about it. Or if they have it might be associated with a left wing attack so probably not perceived as fully truthful.
posted by R343L at 7:52 AM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

The race will be well within the MOE in 2-3 weeks.

Anyone who cares to wager on this please Memail for details.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:53 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

What? Does Cokie Roberts actually think most Americans watch cable news, or otherwise deliberately follow political news? They do not. Political ads are not meant to sway political junkies. They are meant to reach everyone else.

This was a response to the (correct) statement that Trump has received billions in free airtime because of coverage of his ongoing tantrums by the media. Her point was that Hillary can spend money on ads, but that the media is going to continue to cover Trump, whether he spends money on ads or not. The money that will matter is the money spent in getting voters to the polls -- and ads won't be enough to do that.
posted by devinemissk at 7:55 AM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm excited to see how Trump reacts to the Olympics stealing his spotlight for two whole weeks.

I can't remember if I read it on Twitter or here, but basically someone said that Trump needs his fix - whether it's a debate win, a primary win, a controversy - very regularly, and if he doesn't get it he creates one. Well, now that we're after the convention there's really no big events scheduled until the debates two months away. So expect some craziness to get him his attention.
posted by chris24 at 7:57 AM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

To add to that: most people aren't paying attention. Many consciously chose not to pay attention to a lot of politics until closer to the election. So the most they hear and remember is a vague "Trump said something stupid" but the media being "even-handed" keeps digging up stupid things said by democrats. Many trust folks in their community and their local leaders opinion over researching every last thing themselves (even those of us who think we're making data-driven decisions are influenced by cultural factors a lot).
posted by R343L at 7:58 AM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Let's not conflate how Trump's followers see him with how the general public see him. He is, by all measures, one of the most disliked politicians to ever run for national office.
posted by argybarg at 7:59 AM on August 1, 2016 [11 favorites]

Anecdote from Arizona this weekend

My extremely Republican but not particularly religious family is finally souring on Trump. My sister started wavering after watching Clinton's acceptance speech and realizing what a compassionate (and competent!) woman she is. The Khan debacle has pushed her firmly away from Trump.

My mom is pretty much a one issue voter - taxation. She is a Trump supporter because she thinks Hillary will take all of her money away. So far, her information has been spoon fed to her by Fox News - so it hasn't really sunk in how completely unqualified this man is to be president. I made some headway by pointing out that taxation under Hillary would be much less damaging to her net worth than the collapse of our economy or another world war.

What will her money buy her in the smoldering ruins of our country?

I made her promise to read some full Trump interviews and watch some unedited speeches. Trump is the first candidate I've seen who's quotes and sound bites get worse when placed in context.

My Stepdad and BIL are two “All (blue) lives matter, lock her up, build the wall” lost causes.

Fighting the fight to turn Arizona blue this year (or at least not orange - Johnson is the best Trump derail for many here)
posted by Lapin at 8:01 AM on August 1, 2016 [39 favorites]

Either you repudiate Trump and risk losing all the racists in Arizona (which is not an insignificant number) or you fail to repudiate him and risk pissing off all the veterans (which is also not an insignificant number).

I think this is optimistic about whether those vets consider all vets their cohort; a non-zero number of them - and I think this is true of a lot of groups across the nation - have racist opinions that exclude folks who are black/muslim/latin/whateverOther from being their True Fellows. Yeah, I'm sure many military types, particularly any who served with a diverse cadre, won't feel that way. But people subdivide their tribes in all sorts of ways and at all sorts of levels. Assuming that no military folk (or cops or firefighters or teachers or whatever) will excuse racism against someone who's in their cohort is more generous than I am inclined to be.
posted by phearlez at 8:04 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Why is it not shocking that the males in your family are the lost causes?

Could it be this little something called privilege?
posted by vuron at 8:05 AM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

Let's not conflate how Trump's followers see him with how the general public see him. He is, by all measures, one of the most disliked politicians to ever run for national office.

He's polling around 40 percent. That's 91 million "followers" just among eligible voters. If he can pull a quarter of those people into watching the next season of The Apprentice, it'll be the biggest season ever.
posted by Etrigan at 8:05 AM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

But the polls don't(usually) poll registered voters, they poll "likely voters."
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:09 AM on August 1, 2016

Potomac Avenue: He'll be selling fucking knives on QVC with Sarah Palin before this decade is over.

Well, he's probably pretty comfortable there. He had his steaks sold there, and Melania Trump had a line of timepieces and jewelry on QVC. Anyway, he's quite happy shilling his products whenever possible, like at a press conference on one of his golf courses.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:09 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

I think that to the Trump base, the amateur, ridiculous nature of his campaign is a feature, not a bug.

The difference between the shirts on HRC's online store and Trump's store says everything about this campaign.

You could see the designs on Hillary's shirts hanging in a modern art museum in a big, multi-racial American city. They're actually in good taste, made by famous artists and professional designers. Elite fancy pants latte-wearing shirts! Carefully calculated, thought-out shirts, shirts you'd never wear to a high-school football game!

Trump's shirts were clearly designed by some Trump aid ("one my girls, they're great") using a zazzle or cafepress template, in an afternoon. They don't even have actual models wearing them! Everyday American shirts! No fancy-pants art degrees were required. Unpretentious, tell-it-like-it-is shirts!

Really we need an aesthetic theory of this campaign to understand it. It's all about feeling. Where's our Benjamin, our Karl Kraus.

Also, for those of you who were freaking out last week about 538's now-cast, here's today's, the post-convention bump now has HRC with 63.8% chance of winning. We're better than a fair coin! Let the roller-coaster continue.
posted by dis_integration at 8:16 AM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

Could it be this little something called privilege?

It definitely is. My stepdad is particularly rabid against the threats to his white male superiority (Mexicans! Muslims! Women!) which is rich because he is a man who has not worked in 25 years, being supported by his extremely successful wife.

Actually, that makes sense I guess. Toxic masculinity mixed with inferiority complex….
posted by Lapin at 8:17 AM on August 1, 2016 [30 favorites]

Jack Balkin, Donald Trump as a One Man Constitutional Crisis - " No matter how much people fear Trump, they fear even more damaging the American constitutional system. Suppose that many reasonable people actually feel this way. Then for these people at least, Donald Trump is a one man constitutional crisis."
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:20 AM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

Khan's speech was one of the things in the DNC that gave me the shivers. And then his wife says that she can't talk about her son because it is too painful.

It's hard to imagine anybody who has grieved deeply not wanting to just hug these people and punch whoever wrongs them in the face. My friend was shrieking at me the other day about how Trump is a sociopath and I guess that would explain why he maybe doesn't get that he's violated some fundamental taboo about how you Don't Fuck with Grieving Parents.
posted by angrycat at 8:22 AM on August 1, 2016 [21 favorites]

I'm pretty sure he's going to make fucking with grieving parents a core principle of his after this in order to prove he's "right".
posted by Artw at 8:25 AM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Tevin: the consequences will be steep and probably unanticipated (for the Khans speaking)

(Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates: I won't link to it, but yeah, that was inevitable and I'm sure the Khans knew it was coming. Cal Thomas is linking to a conspiracy site purporting to show that Khan is a member of the Muslim Brotherhood and a secret Jihadi intent on bringing over more Muslims to America to install Sharia Law.

I agree with (A)H & (W)O, and I don't think Hilary would have invited anyone to speak on her behalf without fully understanding the potential for backlash against them, and her campaign. In strong contrast with Trump, she doesn't seem like the someone who would use someone for personal gain while ignoring the potential for that person to be hurt in the process.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:30 AM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Reid Statement on Republican Leaders’ Failure to Revoke their Endorsement of Donald Trump

Senator McConnell and Speaker Ryan approvingly spoke at Donald Trump’s convention, endorsed Donald Trump for president and believe he is mentally fit to sit in the Oval Office. Occasional statements that do nothing to repudiate Donald Trump’s words and actions are spineless. Anything short of revoking their endorsements is cowardice.
posted by Artw at 8:32 AM on August 1, 2016 [20 favorites]

I think that to the Trump base, the amateur, ridiculous nature of his campaign is a feature, not a bug.

Yep. I have a Trump-supporting uncle. His mantra is, "We're tired of politicians." It's like if you got screwed over by a mechanic and decided that you were only going to get your car fixed by dentists from now on.

It "helps" that he's also virulently Islamophobic, to the point that he was outraged at the love Muhammad Ali got when he died.
posted by dirigibleman at 8:35 AM on August 1, 2016 [29 favorites]

The difference between the shirts on HRC's online store and Trump's store says everything about this campaign.

There's no straight, white male for Hillary shirt?
posted by Talez at 8:36 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Politico, Pinochet. Chavez. Trump? - "After decades of suffering under populist autocrats, Latin Americans have a message for the Gringos: Welcome to our world."

Don't Cry For Me Argentina, Leanne Ogasawara

And along with unsustainable income inequality, this populist strongman caudillo has a very real elite to "take on." From HRC's hiring of Wasserman-Schultz to her personal wealth, she is someone in need of taking on. Why, fr example, is her foundation and its ties to some seriously nasty people not being more rigoorously questioned? Her ties to Wall Street and her choosing of a VP who wanted to further deregulate banking are problematic to say the least. Despite being heartened by her speech at the convention, I couldn't help but feel utterly unable to trust a word she said (despite liking the words). Her historic ties to corporate and moneyed donors is not something that can be overlooked just because she says she will do something.

So, yeah, the rise of a populist strongman makes sense ~~~and he should therefore not be underestimated. Think Perón, think Fujimori, think Pinochez, think Abdalá Bucaram!!!

Yes, El Loco can win in November!

posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:40 AM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

One day, Donald Trump is going to look a reporter straight in the eyes on national TV and say "I never ran for President."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:47 AM on August 1, 2016 [36 favorites]

There's no straight, white male for Hillary shirt?

Hah! I was thinking of doing my own "Straight White Cis Dude for H" shirt.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 8:48 AM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

She needs an "Ally" shirt.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:49 AM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

The amazing thing is that the Khan's speech was a fairly minor feature of the democratic convention. If Trump had just left the subject alone, we'd barely remember it by this time but he keeps bringing it back into conversation.

Correct.
And the effect that this has is any positive message that Clinton might have had is drowned out by Trump's negativity. BTW, was there a positive message at the DNC? I don't know because all I can remember is Trump's negativity. Which is incidentally also the reason why so many people will vote for him.
So the Khan thing allowed him to totally stay on message. Whereas Clinton is oddly silent, not to say looking like she might even be responsible for the death of the Khans' son. Maybe that's why she's so silent.
posted by sour cream at 8:56 AM on August 1, 2016

To clarify: I don't think that Clinton is responsible for the death of the Khans' son. But what I think doesn't really matter.
posted by sour cream at 8:57 AM on August 1, 2016

My gut says the Khans truly are the Trump kryptonite we've been waiting for. I thought that initially about "I like people who weren't captured," but that had less impact because it was against another public figure. I couldn't have ever imagined a Republican party that was less than full-throatedly demanding support for our troops. It's been one of the mainstays of their party image. The Khans are exposing what really lies behind that jingoistic curtain. Trump cannot win without the military vote.

Ryan and McConnell have about 72 hours to either get Trump to apologize and refuse to engage further on this, or to throw him under the bus and rescind their endorsements. The further Trump's support plummets, the less credit those two clowns are going to be able to generate when they ditch him.

I am irritated that so many people (on social media, not here) are responding by making the debate about the Iraq War and not the proposed ban on immigration by Muslims. The Khans went up there because their story undeniably proves America was better off because their family came to this country - without Capt. Humayun Khan here to join the Army and make the brave choice he did, hundreds of American soliders would have lost their lives.
posted by sallybrown at 8:59 AM on August 1, 2016 [20 favorites]

So the Khan thing allowed him to totally stay on message. Whereas Clinton is oddly silent, not to say looking like she might even be responsible for the death of the Khans' son. Maybe that's why she's so silent.

Is this parody?
posted by diogenes at 8:59 AM on August 1, 2016 [41 favorites]

Whereas Clinton is oddly silent, not to say looking like she might even be responsible for the death of the Khans' son. Maybe that's why she's so silent.

She's made two statements on it and addressed it in speeches. Kaine has commented on it as did Bill. Also, when your opponent is shooting himself in the foot, get out of the way and let him.
posted by chris24 at 9:00 AM on August 1, 2016 [35 favorites]

The amazing thing is that the Khan's speech was a fairly minor feature of the democratic convention. If Trump had just left the subject alone, we'd barely remember it by this time but he keeps bringing it back into conversation.

I disagree. The moment Mr. Khan reached into his jacket and pulled out the pocket Constitution was iconic from the get go for me. I think Trump knows this (with his talent for media events) and that's why he's gone so far out of control. He's freaking the fuck out.
posted by sallybrown at 9:01 AM on August 1, 2016 [33 favorites]

The difference between the shirts on HRC's online store and Trump's store says everything about this campaign.

Huh. Trump's store is selling shirts cut to fit women, and Hillary's store isn't. That's... not what I expected.

Edit: I take that back. Late last week I sent a message to the HRC campaign to complain that every shirt was "unisex" only (men's cut). Today it looks like they are selling some of their shirts in a women's cut as well. I am kind of impressed by that kind of responsiveness.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 9:03 AM on August 1, 2016 [14 favorites]

The moment Mr. Khan reached into his jacket and pulled out the pocket Constitution was iconic from the get go for me.

For those who watched or follow politics closely on twitter or cable news, yes. But for the vast majority of uninformed voters, probably not because they wouldn't have known about it. Trump's reaction has shown that iconic moment and the grace and dignity and truth of the Khans to a much vaster audience.
posted by chris24 at 9:04 AM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

My gut says the Khans truly are the Trump kryptonite we've been waiting for.

And my gut says "surely, this..." because IOKIYAR. I hope you're right.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:05 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm still reeling over the self-contained joke that is "Khan has no right to say I've never read the Constitution."
posted by stolyarova at 9:07 AM on August 1, 2016 [80 favorites]

> BTW, was there a positive message at the DNC?

It was almost 100% "We are a great nation, and we will be greater!" The press commented on the difference between the DNC and RNC ("everything is terrible!") pretty endlessly for days.
posted by rtha at 9:08 AM on August 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

Whereas Clinton is oddly silent, not to say looking like she might even be responsible for the death of the Khans' son.

The person responsible for the death of the Khans' son was the person who drove a car bomb up to the gates of the place Khan was stationed. If you want to talk about proximate causes, Humayun Khan, with full knowledge of the danger he was undertaking, chose to join the military to fight for his country because he believed that was a sacrifice worth making for the country he loved. The reason there is so much reverence for the military among both parties and despite many peoples' reluctance to support war in general (talking for myself here), is because these people put on the uniform every day knowing they could easily lose their lives. The reason I continue to have a hard time with being excited about Clinton is because I will never get over knowing some of my friends' older siblings were going to fight in Iraq for no good goddamn reason and the people who could have potentially stopped this absconded their responsibility for obvious political reasons and continue to lie about that. But it is beyond the pale to say Clinton -- or even Bush -- caused the death of Humayun Khan.

That Donald Trump could potentially be the Commander in Chief of our armed forces makes me want to throw up, and is one of the reasons I wish things upon him that I thought I would never wish on another human being.
posted by sallybrown at 9:11 AM on August 1, 2016 [52 favorites]

BTW, was there a positive message at the DNC?

Did you see complete speeches from the DNC or just the commentary? Because I thought the positive message was "We've fought and won many civil rights battles, we are an immensely diverse country, and we are stronger together."

(Also positive - showing that Clinton has been advocating for better policies for children for a long time.)
posted by puddledork at 9:12 AM on August 1, 2016 [15 favorites]

BTW, was there a positive message at the DNC?

Uh, y'know the part in sports movies where the ragtag team is trailing behind after the first part of the match and they're all looking kinda downtrodden and thinking about quitting? Well, the DNC is pretty much the coach, the assistant coach, the team captain, the team's biggest fan, and a couple players of the rival team that defected all came in to the locker room one after the other and gave amazing speeches telling the team not to quit, it's just the first half, and to "GAME ON!" over and over again.
posted by FJT at 9:14 AM on August 1, 2016 [22 favorites]

So the Khan thing allowed him to totally stay on message. Whereas Clinton is oddly silent, not to say looking like she might even be responsible for the death of the Khans' son.

This is so many different layers of overthinking I don't even know where to begin. 86% of people who see Trump's response are going to agree with John Oliver's conclusion: You fucking asshole. Those who don't are beyond reach.

It won't decide the election alone, but it isn't complicated.
posted by argybarg at 9:14 AM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

Now the VFW is criticizing Trump.

[thisisfine.jpg]
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 9:16 AM on August 1, 2016 [24 favorites]

So here's the message I just shared on Facebook along with a link to that Open Letter from GOP national security experts and this LA Times article...

Bob Gates, who served as Secretary of Defense under George W. Bush, said, when asked whether he would comfortable with Trump’s finger on the nuclear button "Right now? No."

Michael Vickers, a former Special Forces and CIA Operations Officer, Assistant Secretary of Defense under President George W. Bush says Trump "shows no appreciation for the larger strategic context in which counterterrorism strategy must operate in order to be effective."

Michael Hayden, the former head of both the CIA and the NSA (under Bush) says Trump is "destructive for our country… and the world."

David Petraeus former commander of U.S. Forces Afghanistan says "As policy, these concepts are totally counterproductive: Rather than making our country safer, they will compound the already grave terrorist danger to our citizens."

Former CIA Director and Defense Secretary Leon Panetta says Trump "truly is not qualified to be president of the United States."

Richard Armitage, a former high-ranking Pentagon and State Department official, and Brent Scowcroft, who counseled four Republican presidents — have thrown their support to Clinton.

“It’s the fact that our friends aren’t going to trust us and our enemies aren’t going to fear us” if Trump is elected, said Paul Wolfowitz, a deputy defense secretary under George W. Bush.

And then there's this open letter from 121 other Republican national security leaders saying "We are united in our opposition to a Donald Trump presidency."

Eliot A. Cohen, a senior State Department official under President George W. Bush, said he helped draft the letter “so I can look my grandchildren in the eye 15 years from now.”

I think it's pretty obvious after last week that the Democratic national security leaders agree. This is not a matter of partisan disagreement. Everyone who has any real experience in national security matters, regardless of their ideology, agrees that Donald Trump would put our national security at risk.

Please ask if you'd like to see cites on any of the above... or just Google the quoted words. Making this post public -- feel free to share if you think you might know people who would respond to these voices on these issues, and might not have heard them yet.

posted by OnceUponATime at 9:18 AM on August 1, 2016 [23 favorites]

My gut says the Khans truly are the Trump kryptonite we've been waiting for.

‘This Will Be The End Of Trump’s Campaign,’ Says Increasingly Nervous Man For Seventh Time This Year
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:19 AM on August 1, 2016 [31 favorites]

If the GOP loses the military vote, the party really is toast.
posted by sallybrown at 9:20 AM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

Wow. I've seen John Oliver get emotional before, but his barely constrained rage at the end of his anti-Trump diatribe was pretty intense.

If it means anything, his wife was an Army Medic in the Iraq War.
posted by ZeusHumms at 9:20 AM on August 1, 2016 [47 favorites]

If the GOP loses the military vote, the party really is toast.

Agreed, but it seems like so far, there is heavy Trump support. Is that wavering, are there any new polls of active-duty or even retired etc.?
posted by cell divide at 9:23 AM on August 1, 2016

And the effect that this has is any positive message that Clinton might have had is drowned out by Trump's negativity. BTW, was there a positive message at the DNC?

FWIW, Clinton's likability/approval ratings in Gallup's tracking poll have been moving steadily upwards during and since the convention (+5 from post-RNC), so at least for now something's working.
posted by zombieflanders at 9:24 AM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

Another great ad from HRC today. A Gold Star wife and mother who was scammed out of her death benefits by Trump University.
posted by chris24 at 9:25 AM on August 1, 2016 [21 favorites]

Where do you guys get your polls? I pretty much use this page and that's about it.
posted by cell divide at 9:26 AM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sally Bradshaw, who co-wrote the famous post-2012 "autopsy" of the Republican Party and is an advisor to the Bush family, is leaving the Party.
posted by sallybrown at 9:28 AM on August 1, 2016 [32 favorites]

Lapin: Fighting the fight to turn Arizona blue this year (or at least not orange - Johnson is the best Trump derail for many here)

In my (admittedly anomalous) Arizona crowd of academics and artists, Trump isn't even a question, and even Johnson doesn't get much play. It's all about Sanders holdouts who are eyeing Jill Stein. (Sigh.) Since we actually have a chance to push this state into the blue column for once, I would really love for them to get on board with Clinton rather than toss it, especially to an intellectually dishonest semi-pro candidate.

All told, this is a lower-stakes battle, but I'm fighting it nonetheless. I salute those of you with the stomach to take on the Trump situation--and offer my condolences for having to.
posted by Superplin at 9:28 AM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

HuffPost Pollster

Sam Wang
posted by chris24 at 9:28 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Cell Divide, I stick with Sam Wang of the Princeton Election Consortium, and have never regretted it.
posted by Superplin at 9:30 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

What I found most interesting about the message of the DNC was that it wasn't tied to some aspirational slogan, it was simply enacted on stage. Inspiration by example, not by appeal to abstractions.

This convention, even as much as I know it's political theater, is the first time I've felt a political event showed me a glimpse of the world as I actually see it. A stage filled with the diversity of people I've seen on the streets and in my jobs, talk that sounded like those people and perhaps most importantly the pitch wasn't for "hope", some fuzzy vague future we might be able to reach if we close our eyes and wish real hard, the pitch was simply that we need to finally give name to who we are as a people, address the facts of our diversity and come together to get things done; no more divisiveness, no more triangulation, no more strategies of exclusion made for the "greater good" of winning.

Hillary mentioned hope twice in her acceptance speech, thanking Bill, the man from Hope, and Barack, the man of hope. She didn't take up hope as her own slogan, she didn't pitch hope as a substitute for a promise, she left hope with the men who came before her and instead simply asked people to come together and work to fix things.

That's it. No big symbolism, no transcendent dream of tomorrow via yesterday, just a summation of what had been so readily visible on the stage throughout the convention, a body of people with ostensibly vast differences in their histories and wants, all being given space and voice to show those differences weren't so vast, it was only their long history of being talked about more than being allowed to talk for themselves that made it seem so.
posted by gusottertrout at 9:34 AM on August 1, 2016 [64 favorites]

Like, literally, what the fuck is wrong with people.

Better to be winning in visits, cards, and flowers than ignorant tossed-off tweets.
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:35 AM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

So here's the message I just shared on Facebook along with a link to that Open Letter from GOP national security experts and this LA Times article...

Well that's an impressive list of center-right and right wing foreign policy elites who steered the nation into the current quagmire.
posted by notyou at 9:35 AM on August 1, 2016

Yes, it is. And THESE GUYS say Trump is too unstable and dangerous. THESE GUYS.
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:36 AM on August 1, 2016 [28 favorites]

Sally Bradshaw, who co-wrote the famous post-2012 "autopsy" of the Republican Party and is an advisor to the Bush family, is leaving the Party.

"This election cycle is a test," Bradshaw said. "As much as I don't want another four years of (President Barack) Obama's policies, I can't look my children in the eye and tell them I voted for Donald Trump. I can't tell them to love their neighbor and treat others the way they wanted to be treated, and then vote for Donald Trump. I won't do it."

Like, at some point, maybe you should take a good long hard look at yourself and wonder if you really are a conservative. Because Trump is the reductio ad absurdum of conservative principles.

Every day that I read Red State, or Free Republic, or Drudge Report, or /pol/, I find myself questioning my political views. It's just so tempting and easy to blame a group for everyone's problems. Every time I take stock of the situation it comes back to, "all these people that the alt-right are telling me that are bad, I know those people and they're just not bad. Some people are bad but I know bad people from every race". And so I continue on as before. But not without a scar of being little bit more depressed about the state of humanity.
posted by Talez at 9:37 AM on August 1, 2016 [19 favorites]

The difference between the shirts on HRC's online store and Trump's store says everything about this campaign.

It's been said before: this is the kind of graphic design you get when gay people won't work for you. That's a broad joke, of course, but even the more thoughtful Republicans acknowledge that creative people are largely liberals. They've never figured out why; they say it's drugs, sex hunger or Hollywood cash, but what it is, at bottom, is a capacity to feel empathy. Recently, my home state of Mississippi found itself unable to fill a tech contract with an in-state company, due to a lack of the right skilled workers, due to brain drain. No one in charge, of course, will ever acknowledge that this is the result of years of treating the idea of education with outright contempt. But sooner or later it can't be hidden.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:38 AM on August 1, 2016 [29 favorites]

omg why are you going to those places
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 9:38 AM on August 1, 2016 [14 favorites]

People on the left who are tempted to interpret Republicans throwing their support to Hillary as a sign that Hillary is Republican-Lite... No. It's a sign that Trump is THAT BAD. Even people who disagree with everything Hillary Clinton stands for would rather have her picking Supreme Court justices than have Trump destroy our economy and possibly start a nuclear war. It's a sign that this is a national fucking emergency that transcends party politics.
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:41 AM on August 1, 2016 [67 favorites]

Lots of visitors today at Capt. #HumayunKhan's @ArlingtonNatl gravesite. Individuals. Families.

So, this is a link to a tweet with a picture of a gravesite covered with flowers and cards.

And the first reply-tweet is "What about the other soldiers who died..."

Like, literally, what the fuck is wrong with people.

did they literally just #AllLivesMatter a dead soldier
posted by Existential Dread at 9:42 AM on August 1, 2016 [53 favorites]

Political ads are not meant to sway political junkies. They are meant to reach everyone else.

Political ads aren't meant to sway anyone, they're designed to make sure that the people who already agree with you actually get off their asses and vote.

I remind myself that Trump ads aren't aimed at me, they're aimed at people who are likely already voting for Trump.

Ads from both sides will boil down to, "That other person is HITLER SATAN, you don't want Hitler Satan to be president do you! Then you had better vote and vote for me!"

So if, like me, there was never any doubt that you would vote or that would vote for Hillary, those ads (from either campaign) aren't meant for you and you don't need to pay attention to them.

I think the question for HRC then is how many of her supporters are firm in their support for her but might not actually go vote in November? If there are a lot, ads will have a lot of impact, if not, they won't. And I guess that in that sense, ads are part of GOTV efforts.
posted by VTX at 9:42 AM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Another great ad from HRC today. A Gold Star wife and mother who was scammed out of her death benefits by Trump University.

Cheryl Lankford spoke at the DNC too.
posted by zachlipton at 9:42 AM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

If the GOP loses the military vote, the party really is toast.

Agreed, but it seems like so far, there is heavy Trump support.

Under 50 percent for Trump as of a couple of weeks ago, which is a big drop from "supporting Romney over Obama by a margin greater than 2-to-1" four years ago.

(No one directly polls service members, so Military Times polls are self-selecting and therefore highly suspect, but under 50 percent is a good indication.)
posted by Etrigan at 9:43 AM on August 1, 2016 [11 favorites]

Trump's store is selling shirts cut to fit women, and Hillary's store isn't.

I don't think this is what happened there. I bought several designs in women's cuts for my girlfriend a couple of weeks ago. She was probably sold out of the women's cut and is likely selling them as fast as they can be made and prepared.
posted by feloniousmonk at 9:43 AM on August 1, 2016 [14 favorites]

Political ads aren't meant to sway anyone, they're designed to make sure that the people who already agree with you actually get off their asses and vote.

They're also designed to make sure that the people who don't agree with you throw up their hands in disgust and don't vote, but yeah, there isn't really any swaying going on.
posted by Etrigan at 9:44 AM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

"This election cycle is a test," Bradshaw said. "As much as I don't want another four years of (President Barack) Obama's policies, I can't look my children in the eye and tell them I voted for Donald Trump. I can't tell them to love their neighbor and treat others the way they wanted to be treated, and then vote for Donald Trump. I won't do it."

It's perfect that the Pokemon app just came out this summer, because I am slowly playing Catch Them All with my Republican friends and family.
posted by sallybrown at 9:45 AM on August 1, 2016 [12 favorites]

did they literally just #AllLivesMatter a dead soldier

Thanks, Existential Dread, just stole that for my FB page.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:45 AM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

John McCain Condemns Donald Trump Over Attacks on Khan Family

ctrl-F "endorsement" - no hits.
posted by yhbc at 9:46 AM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

omg why are you going to those places

Honestly? Because if I stay in my echo chamber I'll never learn anything or see different points of view. I'll never be able to understand people different from myself. I'll never know why they hurt so badly that they feel the need to hate like this.

Travel may be fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness but there's still many of our fellow humans that don't.
posted by Talez at 9:47 AM on August 1, 2016 [21 favorites]

You can understand conservatives without going to /pol/
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 9:48 AM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

No. It's a sign that Trump is THAT BAD.

It can be both. Certainly there would be Republicans jumping ship if Bernie were the nominee instead of Hillary, but I'm quite confident saying there would be far fewer of them. Hillary's reputation for centrism undoubtedly helps her standing with the non-insane wing of the GOP.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:49 AM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

That said, going to /pol/ is like a window into the heart of Mordor. It galvanizes me to occasionally see that we're up against literally Nazis.
posted by stolyarova at 9:49 AM on August 1, 2016 [11 favorites]

People on the left who are tempted to interpret Republicans throwing their support to Hillary as a sign that Hillary is Republican-Lite... No.

Right. I have never in my life attempted to persuade my mom (my dad isn't a citizen) to vote for a Democrat because she flat out would never. Like, I am pretty sure my parents don't even know I'm a Democrat, despite the fact that I see them several times a week, because I know they'd react so badly that it just isn't worth it to bring up, honestly. But. I think this time around, I might be able to plant the seeds of a "vote against". This situation is so outside the norm, so terrifying (mom and I agree on this, she is 1000% anti-Trump) and we live in a swing state, I might start dropping hints. Not because I think I could ever get mom to agree with a single economic plank of the Democratic platform, but because in this unique situation she may very well be willing to suck it up for 4 years in order to not see our Republic destroyed.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:50 AM on August 1, 2016 [17 favorites]

It's a sign that Trump is THAT BAD.

It also undermine's Trump's attempt to reframe himself as the "law and order" candidate. When folks that work within the defense/security community are saying this person is not an expert at all, does not represent us, and is plain wrong that puts a huge dent in Trump's shiny armor.
posted by FJT at 9:51 AM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

You can understand conservatives without going to /pol/

Probably. But reading /pol/ is like looking at the white hot hate that is the alt-right's id directly. Where else can you spectate that sort of beast up close? You see things you just don't see even on Freep.
posted by Talez at 9:52 AM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

In my (admittedly anomalous) Arizona crowd of academics and artists, Trump isn't even a question, and even Johnson doesn't get much play. It's all about Sanders holdouts who are eyeing Jill Stein. (Sigh.)

My social circle is mostly made up of Central Phoenix living anti-vax, gmo fearing unschoolers - so I am definitely dealing with the Bernie or Busters for Stein issue as well. Some of them are starting to come around as they shift their attention from demonizing Hillary to “OMG - has this orange man been saying this stuff the whole time?!”

So yeah...fighting for Hillary on both fronts.
posted by Lapin at 9:54 AM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

The difference between the shirts on HRC's online store and Trump's store says everything about this campaign.

But maybe not what you'd expect. "Bad" design is out there, not because people don't know any better, but because it works. Hell, Trump's brand is kind of a tacky bad design.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:55 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Like, at some point, maybe you should take a good long hard look at yourself and wonder if you really are a conservative. Because Trump is the reductio ad absurdum of conservative principles.

I have to disagree - and I say this as someone who is relatively liberal and doesn't have the energy to get into whether this is big or little c or l we are talking about here.

This election is the reductio ad absurdum of Replublican political strategy over the past thirty years, but I don't think it reflects conservative principles at all. It reflects various -isms, learned behaviors and tribalism. I still believe in the possibility of a principled opposition. I still respect people who would say sometimes change needs to come with brakes so it doesn't run rough-shod in unanticipated ways. I still think there is a place for principled conservative values. But, Trump has co-opted the name with absolutely none of those principles.

I still hope that after defeating Trump in November we can continue to find common cause with thoughtful people of all stripes to build a good future together. Labeling all conservatives as having values that lead to Trump goes against that hope.
posted by meinvt at 9:55 AM on August 1, 2016 [28 favorites]

Does anybody know how often stuff in the Hillary shop gets restocked? I'm kicking myself for not picking up some of the lovely Hillary pattern buttons when they were around.
posted by joyceanmachine at 9:55 AM on August 1, 2016

When you gaze into the abyss, Talez, - you know. Be careful with that stuff. I can't look at it long because it makes me so angry I become something I barely recognize. You can find conservative thought elsewhere.
posted by Countess Elena at 9:56 AM on August 1, 2016

I saw a trump facebook ad the other day that looked like a shit post instagram meme... I could almost smell the erased watermark. I reported it as spam ^_^.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:56 AM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

People on the left who are tempted to interpret Republicans throwing their support to Hillary as a sign that Hillary is Republican-Lite...

I was tempted to point out that a whole bunch of FP elites who are responsible for the ongoing mess have publicly lined up against the candidate who insists he's battling the establishment. That this particular group failed so spectacularly undermines the authority of their message -- and gives the anti-establishment candidate a ready-made rebuttal.

In this climate, with anti-establishment candidates doing pretty well despite lack of traditional means, Clinton probably ought to keep her distance from well-connected fuckups such as those guys.
posted by notyou at 9:56 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

You can't win against Trump in a war of words.

I think the Khans are demonstrating right now exactly how to do that: by pointing out that Trump's a bully and by standing firm with dignity as Trump doubles and redoubles down on bullying them.

Re-reading Khizr Khan's speech: it was exquisitely and deliberately constructed to provoke Trump. No words in it are wasted. (One thing I noticed yesterday: he inverted the usual "Muslim-American" construction to identify his family as "patriotic American Muslims.")
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 9:59 AM on August 1, 2016 [50 favorites]

Certainly there would be Republicans jumping ship if Bernie were the nominee instead of Hillary, but I'm quite confident saying there would be far fewer of them. Hillary's reputation for centrism undoubtedly helps her standing with the non-insane wing of the GOP.

I think you underestimate how unpopular Hillary "lock her up!" Clinton is among Republicans. If these guys will defect even with Hillary Clinton on the ticket, then I think they would defect no matter who was on the Democratic ticket.
posted by OnceUponATime at 9:59 AM on August 1, 2016 [15 favorites]

Trump supporter and radio host Bill Mitchell:

Hate to spit in the politically correct punchbowl but getting shot or blown up in the line of duty makes you a soldier, not a hero.

Keep fucking that chicken!
posted by sallybrown at 9:59 AM on August 1, 2016 [25 favorites]

And now Lou Dobbs has jumped on the Mr. Khan and his dead American hero son are terrorists bandwagon. Unbelievable.
posted by chris24 at 10:00 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

gusottertrout: What I found most interesting about the message of the DNC was that it wasn't tied to some aspirational slogan, it was simply enacted on stage. Inspiration by example, not by appeal to abstractions.

DNC was TeamHilary on point. Better to have a leader who listens and acts, rather than one who shouts over everyone to hear himself say inane things.

The problem is that it's hard to get soundbites from a listener, and it requires journalists to write up summaries of activities instead of grabbing the best line shouted out through a megaphone. Donald Trump is not just a product of the GOP, but of the modern media and 24/7 news with a rush to be the first. For a dystopian story that captures this sad state, here's The Gambler by Paolo Bacigalupi.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:00 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

anti-establishment candidates doing pretty well

Hillary doesn't care about people who don't trust the military and she shouldn't. She wants people who worship the military to hate Cheetobreath and stay home in November. Any other consideration is statistically meaningless.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 10:01 AM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

More evidence that positive messaging from Clinton and/or the convention actually did get through to Americans (emphasis mine):

Americans' assessments of the effect of the conventions on their image of each party largely mirror their assessments of how the convention will affect their vote in the 2016 election. By 45% to 41%, Americans say they are more rather than less likely to vote for Hillary Clinton based on what they saw or read about the Democratic convention. In contrast, many more Americans said they were less likely (51%) rather than more likely (36%) to vote for Donald Trump as a result of what they saw or read about the Republican convention.

Gallup has asked this question about Democratic and Republican national conventions since 1984, with the exceptions of the 1984 and 1992 Republican conventions. The 2016 Republican convention is the first after which a greater percentage of Americans have said they are "less likely" rather than "more likely" to vote for the party's presidential nominee.

posted by zombieflanders at 10:01 AM on August 1, 2016 [29 favorites]

I think you'd be surprised at how few people are aware enough of the history of our military strategy to actually know those guys are fuck-ups.

The people who think that being as far outside the establishment as possible is the highest qualification for a President aren't going to be persuadable. But that's not the entire pool of voters, that's Trumps base. The people that letter is talking to are people who are perhaps a little bit better educated, traditional Republican voters who do in fact respect military and national security experience without being such wonks that they actually know the ins and outs of who did what when and in what administration and whether or not it was a successful operation.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:01 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

The Khans have been at or near the top of the news on BBC radio for the past couple of days. Currently Frank Luntz (?), 'famed Reoublican political consultant and pollster' is on now on the back of that story, saying that Trump will lose if he keeps personailizing the campaign, but he could well win if he just sticks to being the candidate of change and talks about what he will do. People just want to overturn the status quo and think Clinton's dishonest, but are seeing her as less dangerous than Trump. Half of America is prepared to ignore what they find objectionable about Trump, but only up to a point.
posted by Devonian at 10:02 AM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

My experience with the Trump people on my feed is they're some combination of:

1. Hate Hillary because she's corrupt or a woman or both
2. Think a businessman should be running the country like a business
3. Believe "radical Sharia" Islam is anathema to America (and that Muslims who don't believe that are either delusional or moles)
4. Want to watch the government burn

The ones that believe #3 and #4 may be unreachable. But #1 and #2, there might be a chance to get them turned.

I'm down to one Buster on Facebook. Everyone else in that group has turned, almost on a dime, towards Hillary.
posted by dw at 10:02 AM on August 1, 2016 [13 favorites]

Hate to spit in the politically correct punchbowl but getting shot or blown up in the line of duty makes you a soldier, not a hero.

WaPo:. He saw a taxi speeding toward the gates, too fast, he thought. He yelled for everyone to hit the dirt. Then, as was his nature, he went running toward it, they said.

"Ten or 15 steps with his hand outstretched," his father said, stretching his own arm out in front of him almost a year later, telling some ghost taxi to stop in a downtown conference room.

The explosives detonated before the car could ram the gates or the mess hall nearby, where several hundred soldiers were eating breakfast.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:05 AM on August 1, 2016 [40 favorites]

This election is the reductio ad absurdum of Replublican political strategy over the past thirty years, but I don't think it reflects conservative principles at all. It reflects various -isms, learned behaviors and tribalism.

As a recovering conservative, I can tell you that it ultimately boils down to various tribalisms. I think all politics does, but Liberals are more prone to bring in new tribes.

(That's socially, economics are kind of a different track altogether.)
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:08 AM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Hate to spit in the politically correct punchbowl but getting shot or blown up in the line of duty makes you a soldier, not a hero.

Is this what it was like to see the GOP throw in with the racists?
posted by Etrigan at 10:08 AM on August 1, 2016

@teypartycat: Next season on The Americans: The Center directs Philip and Elizabeth to try to turn Donald Trump to work for the KGB.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:09 AM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

With all the obsession with converting die-hard Trump fans (not gonna happen), let's not forget that he cannot win with only them. What is he doing to reach out to a broader coalition? What voting blocs is he putting together?

And what nitty-gritty work is he doing to get out the vote he has?

Without any actual sustained answer to either, he's way behind.
posted by argybarg at 10:09 AM on August 1, 2016 [11 favorites]

I was tempted to point out that a whole bunch of FP elites who are responsible for the ongoing mess have publicly lined up against the candidate who insists he's battling the establishment.

At this point "establishment" is now starting to mean "anyone against Donald J Trump". The same FP experts are now in the same camp as China, the Obama administration, illegal immigrants, Islam, NATO, the WTO, and the on-the-ground protesters at Trump rallies. Which is absolutely bananas.
posted by FJT at 10:10 AM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Hate to spit in the politically correct punchbowl but getting shot or blown up in the line of duty makes you a soldier, not a hero.

Man, apparently the Bush years were awash in political correctness. Lee Greenwood must be political correctness GONE MAD.
posted by dis_integration at 10:10 AM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

What kind of dumbass terrorist races to STOP the car bomb from reaching its destination? Completely nonsensical.
posted by acidic at 10:12 AM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Where do you guys get your polls? I pretty much use this page and that's about it.

IMHO , RCP and 538 have the easiest/best ways to navigate to state polls as they become more available. These are the ones really worth paying attention to.

It would be SUPER GREAT if either the pollsters would do multilevel regression and poststratification to estimate state intended-votes from their national polls, or would at least give a few organizations/people the microdata so that they could do it. I mean, it works, and it's easily enough automated. I won't hold my breath, though.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:13 AM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Lapin: My social circle is mostly made up of Central Phoenix living anti-vax, gmo fearing unschoolers - so I am definitely dealing with the Bernie or Busters for Stein issue as well. Some of them are starting to come around as they shift their attention from demonizing Hillary to “OMG - has this orange man been saying this stuff the whole time?!”

Heh, I bet we know a lot of the same people. Phoenix is a small town, after all.
posted by Superplin at 10:19 AM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

[HRC] needs an "Ally" shirt.

Hard pass from me, thanks. I will do my best to be an ally at all times, and I try to walk the line between using my position where people listen to my pale, straight, male self and doing talking for folks who should be the ones being heard. I would like to think I try constantly, but I am sure I fuck that up on a regular basis or let my comfortable bubble lull me into complacency for stretches of time.

But I will not be wearing a shirt that asserts something like "I am an ally," (or saying/typing it) because that is so often the domain of people who say and don't do. It belongs, IMNSHO, next to Trump's beloved "believe me" as a sign that when you hear someone assert it you should probably do the exact opposite.

In my more down-on-humanity moments I also think that such a thing makes it even easier for people to not show; the performative aspect lets them forgo concrete actions because they did their public show[pdf].
posted by phearlez at 10:22 AM on August 1, 2016 [15 favorites]

But I will not be wearing a shirt that asserts something like "I am an ally," (or saying/typing it) because that is so often the domain of people who say and don't do. It belongs, IMNSHO, next to Trump's beloved "believe me" as a sign that when you hear someone assert it you should probably do the exact opposite.

Um, okay?
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:23 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

sallybrown: Hate to spit in the politically correct punchbowl but getting shot or blown up in the line of duty makes you a soldier, not a hero.

This is where "politically correct" officially jumped the shark as a concept.
posted by Superplin at 10:28 AM on August 1, 2016 [13 favorites]

But I will not be wearing a shirt that asserts something like "I am an ally," (or saying/typing it) because that is so often the domain of people who say and don't do.

I respect your logic, but I think saying and doing is more productive.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:30 AM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

I thought being PC was mostly about *not spitting*.
posted by puddledork at 10:30 AM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

I read horrible shit because you don't have to:

So Khizir co-founded a journal called "Journal of Contemporary Issues in Muslim Law" and wrote a paper called "Juristic Classification of Islamic Law". While living in Saudi Arabia. Under Sharia Law. As a lawyer. Go fucking figure.

But, oh noes! In his paper he added, “The contribution to this article of S. Ramadan’s writing is greatly acknowledged.” S. Ramadan is apparently a very bad man, and they go on about that for some time. He is referred to as Khan's "icon" because he was, you know, referred to in the bibliography.

Now this book that was briefly mentioned in Khan's paper was published by the World Association of Muslim Youth, which is was created by the Muslim Brotherhood! So by transitive, this means Khizir Khan has links to the Muslim Brotherhood! And did I mention he was in Saudi Arabia when Khan wrote the paper? That means he had to be in contact with those nasty Wahhabists! No, we haven't read Khan's paper.

And currently his lawfirm offers "immigration services". Specifically "E2 Treaty Investors, EB5 Investments & Related Immigration Services." So he is bringing Muslims into the U.S! Because we say so.

Finally, he used to work for Hogan & Hartson and Lovells which has ties to the Clinton Foundation (they donated in 2016 well after he left). So he's an employee of a Clinton-owned law firm!

And then some bullshit about his son actually being a double agent for Al-Qaeda that even I can't stomach.

BRB, vomiting.
posted by charred husk at 10:31 AM on August 1, 2016 [26 favorites]

This is where "politically correct" officially jumped the shark as a concept.

Well, it has always meant (to these people) "things that, if you say them, people might think you're an asshole." And this sentiment definitely qualifies.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:31 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

I read horrible shit because you don't have to:

I think it's worth reminding MeFites that not everything that is posted implies an endorsement, so think before you reply.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:35 AM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

But I will not be wearing a shirt that asserts something like "I am an ally," (or saying/typing it) because that is so often the domain of people who say and don't do.

Might as well be a shirt that says "nice guy".
posted by bongo_x at 10:36 AM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

ChurchHatesTucker:

"I read horrible shit because you don't have to:"

Should have edited to be, "I read terrible shit so you don't have to." Yeah, not an endorsement in the least bit.
posted by charred husk at 10:37 AM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Might as well be a shirt that says "nice guy".

Hey, wait a minute…
posted by nicepersonality at 10:38 AM on August 1, 2016 [18 favorites]

Yes I noticed in his last speech that Pence talked about "rebuilding" the military. What the hell? Has the military been dismantled while I wasn't looking?

I meant to come back to this earlier, and so now I am:

I think that this is just the latest proof that Trump's entire candidacy is about applying the concepts of the pickup artist to politics. He's literally negging his way towards the presidency.
posted by tocts at 10:39 AM on August 1, 2016 [31 favorites]

Koch Brothers Tell Donor Network to Cut Their Losses on Trump

Which is cool and all, but:

> What is more, Koch said, rumors that he would support Hillary Clinton are “a blood libel.”

I mean, there are so, so many ways you could have phrased that, dude, and that's what you went with.
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:39 AM on August 1, 2016 [70 favorites]

I would settle for a NICE PERSONALITY FOR H shirt.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:41 AM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

What is more, Koch said, rumors that he would support Hillary Clinton are “a blood libel.”

I'm so glad that Metafilter is very little like Facebook, but just this once, I want there to be a little "shocked face" emoticon as a response option.
posted by infinitywaltz at 10:42 AM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

famed Reoublican political consultant and pollster' is on now on the back of that story, saying that Trump will lose if he keeps personailizing the campaign, but he could well win if he just sticks to being the candidate of change and talks about what he will do.

But has he talked about how he will do what he says? I guess that only matters if you think he can do any of the things he says, which I do not. (On this: Trump's $8 billion dollar wall would likely cost at least $25 billion).
posted by filthy light thief at 10:42 AM on August 1, 2016

From that article about the Koch brothers, Scott Walker was quoted as saying:

"In the end, choosing between the two, I still believe that any Republican including Donald Trump is better than Hillary."

And that's why this year, for the first time ever, I will almost certainly vote straight ticket Democrat. (Not a registered Democrat, never been registered with either party, have always prided myself on evaluating candidates individually. But this year? I think a straight ticket vote is going to be just the way to go.)
posted by devinemissk at 10:44 AM on August 1, 2016 [20 favorites]

I'm so glad that Metafilter is very little like Facebook, but just this once, I want there to be a little "shocked face" emoticon as a response option.

😱
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:45 AM on August 1, 2016 [15 favorites]

What makes Charles Koch's abuse of the term "blood libel" especially funny is his father did business with the Third Reich.

As NYT points out:

The father of the billionaires Charles G. and David H. Koch helped construct a major oil refinery in Nazi Germany that was personally approved by Adolf Hitler, according to a new history of the Kochs and other wealthy families.

This fucking election season.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:47 AM on August 1, 2016 [21 favorites]

> But has he talked about how he will do what he says?

Sounds like another big city, ivory-tower LIE-beral elitist, what with all their planning and their thinking. *spits*
posted by The Card Cheat at 10:47 AM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Wow, the use of the blood libel terminology has some very very specific connotations. Furthermore it's not exactly a term in the common parlance so it's unlikely that he put it forth without understanding the meaning and baggage of it.

It almost seems like a non sequitur in this context and I'm not sure what meaning we are even supposed to derive from it. Is there some right wing John Birch Society era subtext that mere mortals can't parse?
posted by vuron at 10:48 AM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

this year, for the first time ever, I will almost certainly vote straight ticket Democrat. (Not a registered Democrat, never been registered with either party, have always prided myself on evaluating candidates individually. But this year? I think a straight ticket vote is going to be just the way to go.)

Same, although I'm a registered Democrat so I can vote in my state's primaries. I've always been so cynical towards politics and political parties that it seemed wrong to vote for someone just because they're a member of a specific party. But the concept of a "moderate Republican" is so far gone at this point that I can't even entertain the thought of voting for anyone who would still identify as one.
posted by wondermouse at 10:50 AM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

But this year? I think a straight ticket vote is going to be just the way to go.

Yup. Send the message that Trump is not acceptable AND has ramifications down ticket, lest they be tempted in the future.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:50 AM on August 1, 2016 [15 favorites]

I respect your logic, but I think saying and doing is more productive.

Please don't misunderstand me; I think saying about the validity of the cause is absolutely worth it and important to do. I like to think that when I push back on sexism or racism or homophobia that by virtue of my position in the privileged class I may reach people who won't listen to folks who aren't in their identified cohort.

But talking about what I am and asserting that, like bongo_x gets at, I am a Good Person Who Thinks The Right Things... that's not doing anything for the cause. That's doing exclusively for me, and often people who tell you they are something are compensating for the fact that they aren't. Or, in the act of asserting it, they are less likely to follow through in deeds.

So for me, I don't want to associate myself with the performers. From Clinton's position I think there's a value in not giving certain groups an out to establish themselves as being "on the right side" rather than making them demonstrate that they are via actions.
posted by phearlez at 10:51 AM on August 1, 2016

I'm so glad that Metafilter is very little like Facebook, but just this once, I want there to be a little "shocked face" emoticon as a response option.

I saw this in a MeTa thread once and in its context there it crystallized for me as the perfect performatively incredulous dismay face:

8(
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:52 AM on August 1, 2016 [17 favorites]

What I can't understand is why Republicans are unwilling to rescind their prior endorsements of Trump.

He's going to lose, but more than that, it's clear that he has no future as a politician after this election. He's too narcissistic and unstable to build any kind of coalition. He attacks and humiliates his putative allies.

Why would you want to tar your brand by associating with him?
posted by leotrotsky at 10:53 AM on August 1, 2016 [14 favorites]

POTUS in Atlanta: "As commander-in-chief, I’m pretty tired of some folks trash-talking America’s military and troops. And let me say this: no one, no one has given more for our freedom and our security than our Gold Star families.”
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:53 AM on August 1, 2016 [43 favorites]

Why would you want to tar your brand by associating with him?

Because he might win.
posted by Artw at 10:56 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Why would you want to tar your brand by associating with him?

Endorsing the GOP candidate, regardless of whether or not you like them, is part of how you show loyalty to the GOP.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:57 AM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Why would you want to tar your brand by associating with him?

They rely on his base. Jefferson said it about the South when the country was born: they've got a wolf by the ears. Even yet, the leaders of the South don't dare let go of the spirit of hatred and cruelty.
posted by Countess Elena at 10:57 AM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

I used to vote straight party Democrat because it's super fast however you always have to make sure there aren't any ballot initiatives.

More recently I do the following

A) Is a Democrat running for an office? Vote Democrat
B) Is an Independent or Green running for an office with no Democrat? Vote Third Party
C) Is a Republican running uncontested? Leave blank

The only quandary I typically have is the rare case in which a Republican is running against a lolbertarian (99.9% of Texas Libertarians are full on shout at cloud kooks). I typically leave these blank unless it's a female Republican running against a Male LOLbertarian and then I very very grudgingly vote Republican mainly because in theory they'll be less awful than the alternative.
posted by vuron at 11:00 AM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

But talking about what I am and asserting that, like bongo_x gets at, I am a Good Person Who Thinks The Right Things... that's not doing anything for the cause.

No. But wearing a shirt conveys a message even without you doing anything else. That's something.

I'm not sure when you entered this discussion, but we were riffing on the fact that H! has shirts for multiple groups but not Straight White Cis people, and having those people expressing support can be very powerful precisely because of our privilege.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:01 AM on August 1, 2016

Not a registered Democrat, never been registered with either party, have always prided myself on evaluating candidates individually.

That was me many years ago. Just another thing that's probably gone for good.

But this year? I think a straight ticket vote is going to be just the way to go.

The upside is it's so much easier.
posted by bongo_x at 11:01 AM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

What is more, Koch said, rumors that he would support Hillary Clinton are “a blood libel.”

I'm not typically a fan of litmus tests, but I'm feeling more and more justified in concluding a Republican vote in 2016 is a fine reason to have nothing to do with someone.
posted by Mooski at 11:04 AM on August 1, 2016 [21 favorites]

The upside is it's so much easier.

Heh. I remember when there was a literal party lever you could pull.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:04 AM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

I used to be a "judge every candidate individually", and still kinda do for city level stuff, but for state and national? Sorry, I don't care if I grew up in the same neighborhood as you and thought you were one of the cool adults. Your colleagues are bat-shit and your votes will only enable them because of that (R) by your name.
posted by charred husk at 11:05 AM on August 1, 2016 [12 favorites]

I live in a very red county in a very red state. I just moved here in April, and have voted in 3 elections so far. All of the elections (primary, runoff, local races) only had Republicans on the ticket. I did a lot of research (because there are also no convenient voter's guides here like there were in Oregon) to suss out which of the Republicans was the most liberal (like are they far right or centrist right) or at least most likely to work across the aisle. But I may write in LITERALLY ANYONE WHO ISN'T A REPUBLICAN on any race which doesn't include a Democrat in the future, because fuck the GOP.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 11:05 AM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

There's already a perfect shirt for the straight cis white male. It's the one that says "I'm With Her."
posted by Roommate at 11:07 AM on August 1, 2016 [73 favorites]

Republicans can't repudiate the White Southern base (or more correctly they feel like they can't).

The reality is that prior to the passage of the civil rights legislation by Johnson under the Great Society coalition Republicans rarely had legislative control during the FDR - Johnson period. Eisenhower had 2 years where he had control of Congress.

Nixon and Ford never had Republicans in charge of either house of Congress.

Reagan and Bush never had control of the House but Reagan had 6 years of Senate control.

The reality is that the realignment of parties took about 25-30 years but Southern Democrats (Dixiecrats) basically became the core of the current Republican party.

The Southern Strategy was great for Republicans in terms of winning national and regional elections but the truth is that rather than the Republican party digesting their meal of Southern Democrats the Southern Democrats have basically taken over the party from the inside.
posted by vuron at 11:09 AM on August 1, 2016 [11 favorites]

I'm not sure when you entered this discussion, but we were riffing on the fact that H! has shirts for multiple groups but not Straight White Cis people, and having those people expressing support can be very powerful precisely because of our privilege.

Yep, read it all. I'm not going to police other people's clothing choices, I just feel like why do we need something more than a Hillary or Hillary/Kaine shirt? To get our own identifier just feels too much like White History Month. For the most part the fact that we're white straight dudes supporting HRC is covered by our wearing a HRC shirt plus our presentation, statistics, and the fact that we're the assumed default by the culture.

I know what you're getting at and I'm not maligning you, I'm just saying that wearing something explicitly calling me an ally feels like something between "okay now where's my cookie?" and "no homo." If I saw some other dude in one it would make me wonder what they were trying to accomplish.
posted by phearlez at 11:10 AM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

I can see the "ally" shirt thing from both sides.

I wouldn't want to wear a shirt because I'd rather that my actions proclaim my support and it's the actions, not the t-shirt that will make the difference.

On the other hand, I should totally wear the shirt because I'm an upper-middle-class straight white guy. It'd be pretty easy for people walking down the street to assume that I'm a republican. By wearing the shirt, you put on a banner that says, "I'm with Hillary and there are plenty of people just like US who support her too."

I get what everyone is saying but I think that us Cis white guys are taking action just by wearing the shirt in public. Do other stuff too, but wearing a shirt that shows your support can be one of those actions.
posted by VTX at 11:11 AM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Charles Pierce: Never Trust Anyone Who Speaks in the Third Person. Republicans Must Make the Only Moral Choice: Renounce Trump and Vote for Anyone Else.
posted by homunculus at 11:11 AM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

> But I may write in LITERALLY ANYONE WHO ISN'T A REPUBLICAN on any race which doesn't include a Democrat in the future, because fuck the GOP.

Keep in mind that your vote doesn't express support, necessarily. Don’t think of voting as your personal endorsement of an individual candidate, as if the purpose of elections were to reflect our individual values; instead, think of your vote as your choice about which terrain you would prefer to ‘do battle’ within.

All else being equal, vote for the leftmost viable candidate. Even if that candidate is right-wing.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 11:13 AM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

Vote for Anyone Else.

Well.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:13 AM on August 1, 2016

I'm not sure when you entered this discussion, but we were riffing on the fact that H! has shirts for multiple groups but not Straight White Cis people, and having those people expressing support can be very powerful precisely because of our privilege.

I hear you, but I'm well aware of the statement just wearing my Clinton shirt makes, it doesn't need to say anything else. That's going to be one stinky shirt, since I try to wear it every time I go out.

I said a long time ago that I felt like I needed to have bumper stickers and such for that reason, and how the reaction from people doesn't match my and others assumptions (they're rarely negative). Again, a couple of days ago was the first time I wore my Hillary shirt. I come out of the store and a big guy with a big beard in a big truck is staring at me. Oh boy. After a minute he yells at me "good looking shirt, I like that".
posted by bongo_x at 11:14 AM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

Hillary should have a completely boring polo white shirt with a small logo on the left breast or even sneakier on the cuff or even collar.

That way even the most boring and straightlaced white dude can show that he's proudly with Hillary and isn't afraid to express it in the most boring way possible.

I mean assuming there isn't a "I'm with her" sweater vest that Kaine is rocking.

Ohh shit now I'm imagining pinterest projects where people try to outdo each other making the most completely cliche white people like Hillary crafts.
posted by vuron at 11:14 AM on August 1, 2016 [14 favorites]

I don't know. It seems uncreative and lacking in thought that anyone as prominent as Ryan and McConnell can't figure out a way to repudiate Trump and keep support. People love gutsy, honest politicians. There are so many ways to spin a Trump repudiation. Lindsey Graham and Ted Cruz are two good examples of how to do this, and they both did it differently.

I guess I also just have a tough time understanding how you'd rather keep your seat and lose your self-respect when you have enough money already to take care of your family if you lose your job.

I just imagine the questions Paul Ryan's kids must be asking him. How can he bear it?
posted by sallybrown at 11:15 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

On the other hand, I should totally wear the shirt because I'm an upper-middle-class straight white guy. It'd be pretty easy for people walking down the street to assume that I'm a republican. By wearing the shirt, you put on a banner that says, "I'm with Hillary and there are plenty of people just like US who support her too."

Exactly my point. This is the one time privileged dudes can fight assumptions.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:17 AM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

leotrotsky: it's clear that he has no future as a politician after this election.

While he may not run for political office again, it seems likely that he will continue to have an effect on politics. Partly because he can't shut up for 10 seconds but also because of his tendency to get free airtime when his verbal flatulence begins.

If the TP ticket is used to wipe the proverbial floor, it seems likely that there will be an intraparty ~~squabble~~ bloodletting about whose fault the loss was. Trump can't stfu when anyone criticizes him, so as soon as Priebus, McConnell, Ryan or any of the other usual suspects turn on him, Trump will shit-talk them indefinitely on whatever news channel will give him airtime.

Why would you want to tar your brand by associating with him?

The above logic extends to the present moment as well. If they drop their endorsements, guess who is next on Trump's shit list. He wouldn't stop talking about such a move for days.

The revanchist vote is essential for Republican electoral success--they're running scared of losing it. Cowards.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 11:19 AM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

Maybe we're talking past each other here. I'm talking about something that does something more to assert HELLO I AM A WHITE STRAIGHT DUDE AND I AM AN ALLY than simply wearing a HRC campaign shirt out in public while being myself. I do not want to make my support at all about me.

If the above "ally" shirt meant just visibly supporting HRC I apologize; it sounded like a statement that there should be something specifically for straight white dudes, not just SWDs wearing a HRC shirt.
posted by phearlez at 11:23 AM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

leotrotsky: What I can't understand is why Republicans are unwilling to rescind their prior endorsements of Trump.

They are afraid of being attacked as traitors to the cause.

He's going to lose, but more than that, it's clear that he has no future as a politician after this election. He's too narcissistic and unstable to build any kind of coalition. He attacks and humiliates his putative allies.

Add in "batshit" and that is the perfect definition of a far right wing radio or television show host.
posted by zarq at 11:24 AM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm talking about something that does something more to assert HELLO I AM A WHITE STRAIGHT DUDE AND I AM AN ALLY than simply wearing a HRC campaign shirt out in public while being myself.

Then find a Black Lives Matter one.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 11:24 AM on August 1, 2016 [20 favorites]

Why would you want to tar your brand by associating with him?

They rely on his base.

This, I think. Even if Trump loses, a plurality of the GOP electorate voted for him, and they'll remember the politicians who tried to sink their democratically elected nominee. No one who answers to the voters wants to be the first one to go there.

It is, nonetheless, a stunning display of moral cowardice by the GOP establishment.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 11:27 AM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

ChurchHatesTucker: "The upside is it's so much easier.

Heh. I remember when there was a literal party lever you could pull."

There's still straight party ticket buttons on our touch screen voting machines. You can just hit that and you're done.
posted by octothorpe at 11:29 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

If the above "ally" shirt meant just visibly supporting HRC I apologize; it sounded like a statement that there should be something specifically for straight white dudes, not just SWDs wearing a HRC shirt.

I think there should be something specifically for SWDs, since we're assumed to be on the other side.

I mean, "I'm with Her" is good, but strangers may assume you're gay or whatever. Putting it in big letters might change perceptions.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:31 AM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

I mean, "I'm with Her" is good, but strangers may assume you're gay or whatever.

I should hope for such a compliment.
posted by Mooski at 11:32 AM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

There's still straight party ticket buttons on our touch screen voting machines. You can just hit that and you're done.

Oh, really? Where?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:32 AM on August 1, 2016

There's still straight party ticket buttons on our touch screen voting machines. You can just hit that and you're done.

Not in Virginia, but we're weird about parties here. There's some races that have identified parties but it's not communicated on the ballot.

Election officials within the Commonwealth of Virginia are by law not allowed to provide party designation for local candidates on the ballot (§ 24.2-613). The only candidates that may have a party designation on a ballot are those running for federal, statewide, or General Assembly offices.

I'm not sure if that's why there's no straight ticket selections or if it's local choice (I've only ever voted in two counties in my years here) or if there's some other law prohibiting it. But in VA if you want to vote straight ticket you not only need to make the individual selections yourself but must also come in knowing who is in the party for the races that don't show it on the ballot.
posted by phearlez at 11:35 AM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

ChurchHatesTucker: "There's still straight party ticket buttons on our touch screen voting machines. You can just hit that and you're done.

Oh, really? Where?"

Pennsylvania.
posted by octothorpe at 11:35 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

I assume Ryan & McConnell feel so secure in their command of the Legislative Branch that if it came down to it, they think they can easily impeach Trump, and they prefer an impeachable Trump and Future President Pence to President Clinton with respect to passing their pet legislative projects, and everyone will forgive them once they show how there never was any danger, of course we got rid of that joker once he showed he really couldn't be President, no harm no foul, etc.

I'm terrified they're wrong and we're going to end up with, I guess, a type 3 constitutional crisis (as linked above) if Trump uses his status as Commander-in-Chief to not go willingly.
posted by cdefgfeadgagfe at 11:36 AM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

I really really REALLY want to donate to Hillary, but I want my money to be used effectively.

Wait, you think that if you donate money, her campaign will just waste it, so you want to direct how it's spent?

Do you realize how utterly corrosive this mentality is to non-profit charities in general? And how it's built on absolute bullshit?

The Clinton campaign is not in the business of wasting money. If you're going to donate, just donate. Because frankly, the campaign has a much better idea of their needs than you.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:36 AM on August 1, 2016 [35 favorites]

Oh, really? Where?

Some districts in Texas do. I know because I have family there who votes that way.

Interestingly enough, Michigan, Texas, West Virginia and North Carolina all allow straight ticket voting.
posted by zarq at 11:37 AM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Can we stop the "won't someone think about straight white dudes" derail now?

Even as someone who thinks it's a bad to unnecessary idea, this is a shitty way to frame the subject and kind of an obnoxious "I don't care about it so stop talking about it" message.
posted by phearlez at 11:37 AM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

It definitely is. My stepdad is particularly rabid against the threats to his white male superiority (Mexicans! Muslims! Women!) which is rich because he is a man who has not worked in 25 years, being supported by his extremely successful wife.

Even the Thought of Earning Less than Their Wives... makes men more likely to vote for Trump than Clinton, according to a recent study which was covered in the Harvard Business Review.

From the article:

A notable recent example of how men react to a threat to their masculinity comes from a survey experiment that I carried out with my colleagues at Fairleigh Dickinson University’s PublicMind poll. The experiment was embedded in a standard political survey with one unusual question, which asked married or cohabitating respondents if they earned more, less, or about the same as their spouses. Half of the respondents were randomly assigned to get this question early on in the survey, and half were assigned to get it only at the end of the survey.

Now, this question wasn’t there because we cared about the actual answers. We know that about 15% of U.S. men make less than their spouses do — a figure that’s highly dependent on age, with younger men being much more likely than older men to earn the same or less than their spouses. The reason we asked the question was to push men to think about potential threats to their gender roles. Being the breadwinner has been a linchpin of U.S. men’s masculinity for decades, so even the potential of making less than one’s spouse threatens accepted gender roles.

Men who weren’t asked about spousal income until late in the survey preferred Hillary Clinton over Donald Trump in a hypothetical general election matchup by a 16-point margin; men who were asked about spousal income only a few questions before being asked about the Clinton-Trump matchup preferred Trump by an eight-point margin — a 24-point shift in preferences. The conclusion that this is about gender is reinforced by the fact that the spousal income question had no effect at all on a matchup between Trump and Bernie Sanders.
posted by pocketfullofrye at 11:39 AM on August 1, 2016 [40 favorites]

I really really REALLY want to donate to Hillary, but I want my money to be used effectively.

It will be. They are putting up great ads, but in swing states (e.g. not bothering with safe blue places like Washington and Oregon, or likely unwinnable red ones like Missouri), running an excellent online/social media campaign, campaigning smart and actively, etc. And I anticipate a superior GOTV effort.

While you are at it, consider what down ballot support you can provide to make the Senate blue, change the color of the state legislatures from red to blue, and make governorships blue. And if you have a swing House seat to spend on, do it.
posted by bearwife at 11:40 AM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

Can we stop the "won't someone think about straight white dudes" derail now?

I don't understand how a sizeable portion of voters is a derail.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:40 AM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

The Clinton campaign is not in the business of wasting money. If you're going to donate, just donate.
I was going to send them used clothing and outdated canned goods, would that be OK?
posted by Floydd at 11:43 AM on August 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

If the Grand Unifying Theory of the 2016 Far Right still holds

I read that as "if the Grand Unifying Theory of 2016 still holds" and I about shit myself, because if this election goes the way the rest of 2016 has, I'm going to have to join the underground.
posted by Mooski at 11:44 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Tim probably knows where those donations can do the most good, so sure.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:45 AM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

Trump Vs. Clinton: Where The Candidates Fall On The Most Important Issues
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:45 AM on August 1, 2016

No thank you to any sort of special "ally" shirt. At some point in the last couple years, I started hearing "ally" as "hey everyone, lookit me being good!" so that's not a shirt I would like to see or wear. Merely wearing her crest is enough to declare yourself allied with Hillary. Or, yes, any of the #ImWithHer selections.

I might be the only person wearing a Hillary shirt in my Sanders worshipping, white as flour college town, which is part of why I purchased one. Haven't settled on what the next one will be yet, but that Everyday Pantsuit one is the current top contender.
posted by EatTheWeek at 11:45 AM on August 1, 2016

Interestingly enough, Michigan, Texas, West Virginia and North Carolina all allow straight ticket voting.

NC's straight-ticket voting (which only applied to partisan down-ballot races) was abolished by the 2013 omnibus voter law. It remains to be seen whether having that law thrown out by the 4th Circuit will restore ticket voting for 2016.
posted by holgate at 11:45 AM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Interestingly enough, Michigan, Texas, West Virginia and North Carolina all allow straight ticket voting.

Michigan still has it only thanks to judge striking down an attempt by the Legislature to eliminate it, saying the change was obviously targeted at African-American voters and made the voting process take more time for no good reason.
posted by Etrigan at 11:48 AM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

Interestingly enough, Michigan, Texas, West Virginia and North Carolina all allow straight ticket voting.

Gov. Rick Snyder of Michigan (as I will never stop reminding people, an ostensibly moderate R) signed a bill in January eliminating straight ticket voting, saying “As governor, I have strived to put people before politics and strongly encourage voters to do the same.”

As Etrigan points out above, this has only recently been overturned by a US District Court judge.
posted by palindromic at 11:52 AM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

*shakes fist at wikipedia*
posted by zarq at 11:53 AM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

Anyone got any sort of links or literature about these removals of straight-ticket items, or things like VA's forbidding of identifying party at the local level? I'm sort of fascinated by it since I wouldn't have assumed it was something that worked to the advantage of one party over the other. If anything, I'm predisposed to think of Ds as being more inclined towards circular firing squads and view Rs are better at party unity. So I would have thought they'd want a straight-ticket option for their constituents.
posted by phearlez at 11:53 AM on August 1, 2016

Joanie Caucus, a former Democratic campaign worker, in yesterday's Sunday Doonesbury strip: "I'm in."
posted by Gelatin at 11:57 AM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

My guess is that straight ticket voting increases the "turnout" rate for minor downticket races that would otherwise be left blank.
posted by theodolite at 12:00 PM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm sort of fascinated by it since I wouldn't have assumed it was something that worked to the advantage of one party over the other. If anything, I'm predisposed to think of Ds as being more inclined towards circular firing squads and view Rs are better at party unity. So I would have thought they'd want a straight-ticket option for their constituents.

Republicans tend to have more time to vote, so pressing each button or filling in each bubble or whatever isn't as onerous for them.
posted by Etrigan at 12:01 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

I really really REALLY want to donate to Hillary, but I want my money to be used effectively. Is there some sort of system where people in deep blue states can pay for Uber credits to give voters in swing states free rides to polls?

Just donate to the campaign. They want to win even more than you want them to, and AFAIK this campaign season has yet to see her organization be anything other than utterly professional and on-the-ball; even more so now that it's eaten most of Sanders'. If they don't use your money to hand out Uber credits to Gators, it will be because they have actual no-shit data indicating it would be better spent doing something else.

Disclaimer: Does not apply to all campaigns ever. If you for some reason wanted Trump to win, you would do well to find some organization that wasn't a clusterfuck to donate to.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:02 PM on August 1, 2016 [15 favorites]

I suspect it is a philosophical stand which comes from different dimensions in different locales. There is currently a push from a member of the Progressive Party here in Burlington to do away with party identification on local ballots. The theory put forward is that these identifiers discourage people from researching and making up their own minds about individual candidates. I disagree, but locally the push to diminish party identification is coming from the left. I wouldn't be surprised if in other localities the push could come from the right as well.
posted by meinvt at 12:04 PM on August 1, 2016

Gallup: Trump support tumbles after conventions
posted by escape from the potato planet at 12:04 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

So I would have thought they'd want a straight-ticket option for their constituents.

Anecdotally, the political thinking in NC was that D-leaning voters are either lower socioeconomic / educational status, so aren't focused on who's running for State Commissioner of Widgets, or under time pressure and just want to register their votes at the top of the ballot, whereas R-leaning voters have the time and inclination to fill in every blank.

There are a lot of state-level elected positions in NC: that's mostly down to anti-patronage / cronyism measures going back decades, but the result is that a tiny percentage of the voting population is in a position to make a truly informed choice, and everyone else goes by trust and party affiliation.
posted by holgate at 12:05 PM on August 1, 2016

WTF. MSNBC is playing some kind of summary of the Khan story, showing clips of Khan and Trump while playing ominous soundtrack music in the background. I guess they've decided to graduate the story from news to drama. FFS.
posted by homunculus at 12:07 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's starting to sound like Trump is really anti-fire marshal.
posted by zombieflanders at 12:07 PM on August 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

And there's video!
posted by zombieflanders at 12:09 PM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

He's panicking about loss of support. Something has broken through to him - poll numbers?
posted by sallybrown at 12:10 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Transcript on fire marshals.
posted by zachlipton at 12:12 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

"Fire marshals, they're all conspiring against me!" is some Caine Mutiny level shit
posted by theodolite at 12:13 PM on August 1, 2016 [17 favorites]

Hahaha at this point in time basically the only way for the Republicans to somehow get rid of Trump is to have him withdrawal for medical reasons.

And even then wouldn't they basically be stuck having to shore up Republican support for Pence of all people.

At this point in time I halfway expect a ton of negative ads to be run against Trump from Republican Super PACs as the right realizes that Trump is dead weight and the best way to salvage something decent from this mess to make sure Trump loses big (but somehow doesn't take down the rest of the downballot).
posted by vuron at 12:13 PM on August 1, 2016

Trump appears to be having a meltdown on twitter re: CNN being biased against him.
posted by gatorae at 12:14 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

He's panicking about loss of support.

oh please oh please I swear to god I won't eat another pint of Ben and Jerry's all in one sitting ever again...
posted by Mooski at 12:15 PM on August 1, 2016 [12 favorites]

Mooski!! There's urgency and then there's going too far!
posted by meinvt at 12:16 PM on August 1, 2016 [23 favorites]

hmmm, cavalier attitude towards fire safety...facing political opposition from a strong but controversial woman...
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:19 PM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

Like I said in an earlier thread, if Trump's campaign is booking small venues and then the Incurious Orange starts complaining about the capacity and A/C, then local media is going to be interviewing the fire marshals and venue owners for the evening news and morning paper long after he's fucked off. Especially if he stiffs the venues on the bill, which he'll do, because he's a sociopath.

Pissing off America, one medium-sized city at a time.
posted by holgate at 12:20 PM on August 1, 2016 [25 favorites]

If you've lost Fire Marshal Bill, you've lost America.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:22 PM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

Every seat is full at the rally.

So (in typical Donald fashion) he is feeling insecure about something related to his popularity (declining poll numbers and/or declining attendance figures and/or GOP people being "mean" to him on the Khan issue and/or someone within the campaign (Ivanka?) telling him to cut it out?). He then projects that onto this specific event and either intentionally lies to reporters or is straight up delusional, to stress that he is more popular than he looks ("There were 6000 people here to support me and you just can't tell because of the fire marshal conspiracy!!!!!!!! The reason I don't seem as popular as I am is because everything is rigged!!!").

This man is going to totally lose his shit when he loses the election. Can you imagine him giving a concession speech?
posted by sallybrown at 12:27 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

That's insane.
posted by rp at 12:27 PM on August 1, 2016

Washington Examiner: It's the Supreme Court, stupid, Hugh Hewitt

Of course I am voting for Donald Trump. You should be too if you are a conservative. Let me break this down into three arguments, the first of which is Trump's trump card on the #NeverTrumpers.

If Hillary Clinton wins, the Left gavels in a solid, lasting, almost certainly permanent majority on the Supreme Court. Every political issue has a theoretical path to SCOTUS, and only self-imposed judicial restraint has checked the Court's appetite and reach for two centuries.

That restraint will be gone when HRC's first appointee is sworn in. Finished.

This is not hyperbole. I have the advantage of having taught Con Law for 20 years, of having argued before very liberal appellate judges like Judge Stephen Reinhardt of the very liberal Ninth Circuit, of practicing with the best litigators in the land, and I know what a very liberal SCOTUS means: conservatism is done. It cannot survive a strong-willed liberal majority on the Supreme Court. Every issue, EVERY issue, will end up there, and the legislatures' judgments will matter not a bit.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:28 PM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

I suspect it is a philosophical stand which comes from different dimensions in different locales.

There's nothing philosophical about it. Parties or groups that think they would, overall, benefit from straight-ticket voting push for it. Those who think it would hurt them oppose it.

There is currently a push from a member of the Progressive Party here in Burlington to do away with party identification on local ballots.

Golly! A minor party doesn't want people to know which candidates are affiliated with major parties, so that more voters will unintentionally vote for their candidates because they can't remember which one is the Democrat? Say it ain't so.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:33 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

I know we all know this, but he's such a fucking jackass.
posted by defenestration at 12:34 PM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

Re military support:

Under 50 percent for Trump as of a couple of weeks ago, which is a big drop from "supporting Romney over Obama by a margin greater than 2-to-1" four years ago.

Etrigan, that may not be as big a drop as it sounds; the charts still show Trump leading Clinton by more than 2-1, there are just a lot of alternative possibilities as well (Johnson, etc.).
posted by current resident at 12:35 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

I have the advantage of having taught Con Law for 20 years

This is the man who, when the Nixon presidential archive finally passed into the hands of the Yorba Linda library, said he'd deny access to researchers who he considered anti-Nixon.

I know what a very liberal SCOTUS means: conservatism is done.

You support a monomaniacal satsuma on legs.
posted by holgate at 12:36 PM on August 1, 2016 [13 favorites]

Vote for me, I think you live in a shithole!
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 12:36 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

I hope they have this on video: Trump says it's called the Rust Belt "because everything's rusting and rotting."
posted by sallybrown at 12:37 PM on August 1, 2016 [13 favorites]

RE: The fire marshall, according to a counter protester who's account I read (which was truly, completely terrifying - she said trump supporters surrounded a teenaged girl and call her homophobic slurs among other things), they were talking to the cops, who said that the trump campaign intentionally released several thousand more tickets (like 2 or 3 times) more than seats were available. That's why there were people lined up outside: either trump incompetence, or an intentional move to manufacture an illusion of political suppression. What they didn't count on was that the fire marshall would be a beloved conservative figure and literal hero in Colorado City.
posted by codacorolla at 12:37 PM on August 1, 2016 [27 favorites]

Trump says Mexico has become the "eighth wonder of the world." "That's going to end," he says - under him, Mexico will do merely "fine."

what is this i cant even
posted by salix at 12:37 PM on August 1, 2016 [18 favorites]

I appreciate you greatly, erinfern, and I don't think you're wrong to worry, given that Florida is a gerrymandered flustercluck beyond belief, has been for years, and appears impossible to game. No campaign, even the best funded, smartest run, can afford to be complacent about Florida. Avoiding another horror like 2000 is going to take more than money, it's going to take people on the ground to watch the polls and help people get to the polls, absolutely. I hereby commit to doing that, erinfern, and to think of you as I do. Meanwhile, I'd say go ahead and throw money at the campaign and trust that they'll make good use of it.

As somebody who worries about this stuff all the time, too, I advise you to get on Al Franken's mailing list. http://www.alfranken.com/ He sends little e-mails on behalf of struggling downticket democratic candidates all the time, people from all over the place. I get reams of charity mail that I largely ignore, but I always read Al Franken's because they're always smart little letters, and some of them are hilarious, which implies to me that he may be writing some of them himself. It gives me great solace to get mail from him. I donate something now and then because I figure if I help out some guy in Wisconsin, when Al Franken gets wind of a struggle in my sector, he'll send letters out and do good for me. I'm acting "locally," but not in my locale. It's awesome.
posted by Don Pepino at 12:39 PM on August 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

Men who weren’t asked about spousal income until late in the survey preferred Hillary Clinton over Donald Trump in a hypothetical general election matchup by a 16-point margin; men who were asked about spousal income only a few questions before being asked about the Clinton-Trump matchup preferred Trump by an eight-point margin — a 24-point shift in preferences. The conclusion that this is about gender is reinforced by the fact that the spousal income question had no effect at all on a matchup between Trump and Bernie Sanders.

posted by pocketfullofrye at 11:39 AM on August 1 [12 favorites −] Favorite added! [!]

I mean. I knew this. I did. I already knew this, just by virtue of being a woman and being observant.

But goddamn is it still gutting to read.

I'm also, right now, really glad to be a lesbian.
posted by schadenfrau at 12:40 PM on August 1, 2016 [44 favorites]

He attacked a dead war hero's family, attacked the Marshal of a fire department that just saved him from his own staff's elevator mishap, then lied to America about the NFL, all just yesterday. It looks like he's begun today with a similar plan. By the end of this week, he'll have slapped an apple pie out of a baby's hands. It might cost him half a point.
posted by EatTheWeek at 12:40 PM on August 1, 2016 [27 favorites]

The theory put forward is that these identifiers discourage people from researching and making up their own minds about individual candidates.

I've begun to care less about who the individual candidate is and more about what party they belong to, because who they are is less important to achieving my preferred policy outcomes than who they want to work with and work for. I am not terribly sympathetic to arguments that suggest that there's some moral high ground involved in having the time, interest, and wherewithal to research each individual candidate for all elected positions. For one, it implies that simply knowing that you prefer Democrats to Republicans, or vice versa, renders one unfit for democratic participation.

We vote for all kinds of judges in Michigan on the non-partisan ballot, and I hate that both a) judges are elected officials, and b) they are on the non-partisan ballot. The idea is that judges are supposed to be non-biased and impartial, which is clearly impossible. I wish the candidates would just tell me which party they support/belong to, because I hate having to try and divine their judicial orientation from the endorsements and vague platitudes that constitute a judicial campaign. Non-partisan ballots perpetuate the fiction that if no one is told of your biases, then you are unbiased, a sort of argument for objectivity from ignorance.

I have never used the straight ticket voting option before, mostly because I prefer to withhold my vote from those running unopposed, even though I vote almost exclusively for Democrats. This year I will definitely use it, because I loathe Rick Snyder with the fires of a thousand suns and wish to use a tool he sought to take away.
posted by palindromic at 12:40 PM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

He's gone full support of Russia- "wouldn't it be nice if Russia and the US got along?" I really hope some neo-con warhawks can nail him on this point and continue to reduce his appeal.
posted by andruwjones26 at 12:41 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

The fire marshal thing is bizarre. It makes sense in light of his need for attention and adoration, though – in his mind, being denied a packed house of admirers is an affront (public safety be damned).

He is so thin-skinned, and reacts so badly to any kind of challenge or criticism. I really think he might crack as the general election moves into full swing: a bizarre meltdown on live TV, a completely unhinged tweetstorm (you know, even more unhinged than his usual output), something like that.

I do wonder whether the rumors about diet pill addiction are true. Something is not right in that man's brain.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 12:43 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

I have been on such an emotional seesaw lately. I'm terrified whenever I think about the RNC and that vision for my country but then I pass into this strange state of disbelieving calm when I think that the Republican nominee for president is traversing America starting fights with local fire marshals.
posted by winna at 12:43 PM on August 1, 2016 [24 favorites]

the man of twists and turns: Washington Examiner: It's the Supreme Court, stupid, Hugh Hewitt

Over at Reason, Damon Root reprinted responses from 10 “libertarian and conservative legal experts” to the following question: "Is SCOTUS a Good Reason to Support Trump?"

5 No
2 Maybe
3 Yes.

Here's one of the "No's": Alan Gura
Attorney at Gura PLLC and adjunct Professor of Law at Georgetown University

Donald Trump has effectively identified the horrific prospect of Hillary Clinton appointing at least one and perhaps several Supreme Court justices, to say nothing of the lower courts. But shall we entrust that task to an insecure lunatic, a fascist caudillo, an autarkist, a proud ignoramous and conspiracy theorist, the aspiring leader of a "Workers' Party" who plays footsie with racists and anti-Semites and might well be a Russian agent? I have no illusions about what Hillary would do to the federal bench. Sad! But there is something deeply contradictory about the notion of electing a power-hungry strongman on the theory that he'll appoint judges that respect and enforce constitutional limits on government. Did Hugo Chavez appoint great judges? Did Putin, Mussolini, or Erdogan? Would it have mattered had they sort-of kinda suggested that they would?

As much as I care about the courts, worrying about jurisprudential doctrine is a luxury for people living under basically free and stable governments, for people who have access to food and toilet paper. And absolutely nothing in Trump's history suggests that he'd honor his proposed judge list or otherwise pick decent judges, while each of his proclamations indicates that the Supreme Court would be among the least of our concerns under his regime. True, the Trump gamble—that he'd be a figurehead who'd delegate authority to responsible people, or be resisted by the bureaucracy and media (or, laughably, by that stiffest-spined creature, the Republican Congress), while hewing to a judicial selection principle anathema to his personal brand—might pay off. Should Trump win, I'd at least delight in Hillary's loss, and fervently hope that he'd prove me wrong on every count. But I wouldn't bet my country on it.

posted by zarq at 12:45 PM on August 1, 2016 [37 favorites]

He's gone full support of Russia- "wouldn't it be nice if Russia and the US got along?" I really hope some neo-con warhawks can nail him on this point and continue to reduce his appeal.

Only if the neocon warhawks then slip on a banana peel and die
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 12:45 PM on August 1, 2016

"I’m afraid the election’s going to be rigged."

Hillary should find this clip and use it in every one of her ads.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:46 PM on August 1, 2016

When they reboot BTTF, they can have Marty travel back to 1986 and try to explain to Doc Brown that the 2016 Republican presidential nominee loooooooves the Russians.
posted by entropicamericana at 12:47 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

> Donald Trump on Vladimir Putin: "He did call me a genius, but these are minor details." (That is false.)

hahahaha
posted by sallybrown at 12:48 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

"I'm afraid the elections' going to be rigged"

same Donald same
posted by acidic at 12:48 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

> Donald Trump again boasts that he did better than Eisenhower: "I got more votes than him. He won the Second World War. That's good, right?"

no words
posted by sallybrown at 12:49 PM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

I find his fire marshall hateboner so amusing after personally witnessing the fire marshall have to turn away what I'm guessing was at least 1000 people at a Clinton rally this weekend. No toys were thrown out of any prams, just a gracious shout out from the speakers.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:51 PM on August 1, 2016 [25 favorites]

The rigged thing... he's so fucking obvious. Is this the type of next level thinking that impresses the hell out of Scott "omg, his people called him president and that makes you think he's the president before he's even the president" Adams?
posted by defenestration at 12:52 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

6 Times Donald Trump (Probably) Fabricated Interactions With Other People:

Over and over, he has claimed to have had interactions with people and institutions — sometimes very big, powerful ones who don’t like to be misrepresented — only for basic fact-checking to suggest that it’s very unlikely those interactions actually occurred.

posted by kirkaracha at 12:52 PM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

This is not hyperbole. I have the advantage of having taught Con Law for 20 years, of having argued before very liberal appellate judges like Judge Stephen Reinhardt of the very liberal Ninth Circuit, of practicing with the best litigators in the land, and I know what a very liberal SCOTUS means: conservatism is done. It cannot survive a strong-willed liberal majority on the Supreme Court. Every issue, EVERY issue, will end up there, and the legislatures' judgments will matter not a bit.

BRB, sending this article to every liberal holdout I know
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:53 PM on August 1, 2016 [43 favorites]

At the risk of debasing the elevated discourse of this thread with anything so plebian as dank memes, here is a dank meme for people who are fans of Stranger Things and not fans of Trump.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 12:55 PM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

> Donald Trump again boasts that he did better than Eisenhower: "I got more votes than him. He won the Second World War. That's good, right?"

He's been trying desperately to link himself to Ike since one of the debates last year. Eisenhower was the first person to be elected President without first being elected to a prior office. He also presided over the noxiously-named "Operation Wetback," which deported around 1.3 million people into Mexico.
posted by zarq at 12:55 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

VFW is asking Trump to apologize. If he doesn't, his support in the military will slide. If he does, his rabid base will see it as weakness. There is no upside for him.
posted by yesster at 12:56 PM on August 1, 2016 [31 favorites]

I think Trump is building up his rationale for not doing more rallies: Why do them when the fire marshals are against him? Rigged!

Why do debates when they're rigged against him?

I think he's headed to that dark place a lot of the biggest celebrities go: holed up in his mansion, popping pills, paranoid.
posted by argybarg at 12:57 PM on August 1, 2016 [12 favorites]

He just told a story about buying a housing development in Cincinnati, flipping it, and then gleefully watching it fail after he sold it
posted by theodolite at 12:58 PM on August 1, 2016 [11 favorites]

VFW is asking Trump to apologize. If he doesn't, his support in the military will slide. If he does, his rabid base will see it as weakness. There is no upside for him.

I hope you're right, but this dude seems like a political Escher painting sometimes.
posted by Mooski at 12:58 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump now bragging about taking away press credentials days after Pence said he would convince him to reinstate them

"I listened to people, but I really listened to myself." I genuinely wonder if Trump has ever listened to himself. Because come on.

"They stole our passport machine," is a thing Donald Trump just said. Really.

Hoo boy...
posted by zombieflanders at 12:58 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

VFW is asking Trump to apologize. If he doesn't, his support in the military will slide. If he does, his rabid base will see it as weakness. There is no upside for him.

Trump will not apologize. That is not a dude who apologizes, ever.
posted by rabbitrabbit at 1:01 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

THIS FUCKING GUY
posted by defenestration at 1:01 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Pop Quiz:

You have something to tweet which will greatly upset Donald Trump when he sees it. It's the night of the first Presidential debate. How many hours/minutes before the start of the debate do you post the tweet?
posted by Spathe Cadet at 1:01 PM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

Donald Trump again boasts that he did better than Eisenhower: 'I got more votes than him. He won the Second World War. That's good, right?'

Population of the United States in 1950: 150,697,361
Population of the United States in 2010: 308,745,538

Also, the Voting Rights Act of 1965 started removing barriers that kept black people from voting.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:01 PM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

He just told a story about buying a housing development in Cincinnati, flipping it, and then gleefully watching it fail after he sold it

Does anyone have even the tiniest bit of faith that Trump might understand that unlike in real estate, in government if you get out right before it crashes you still have to live in the aftermath?
posted by tocts at 1:01 PM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

Eisenhower was the first person to be elected President without first being elected to a prior office.

Major General Zachary Taylor, General (Hiram) Ulysses S. Grant, Secretary of Commerce Herbert Hoover.
posted by Etrigan at 1:03 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

@ddale8

Trump says he sometimes tweets from bed. And that his tweets get more attention than his perfectly written press releases, which is true.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 1:03 PM on August 1, 2016

More good news on the voting rights side of things: Federal Court Stops North Dakota Strict Voter ID Law, Requires “Fail Safe” Voting Workaround
posted by zombieflanders at 1:05 PM on August 1, 2016 [13 favorites]

Major General Zachary Taylor, General (Hiram) Ulysses S. Grant, Secretary of Commerce Herbert Hoover.

I'm batting 1000 today. Thanks. :)
posted by zarq at 1:06 PM on August 1, 2016

MARSHAL HAS ONE L dot tumblr dot com.
posted by holgate at 1:06 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

First bald person, maybe?
posted by kirkaracha at 1:06 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

What do Donald Trump voters really crave? Respect, Chris Arnade

Every Trump supporter who spoke to me was gracious and eager to explain why he or she liked Trump, why Trump was not a racist, and why they themselves were not racist.

Joe Kuzema, 41, owns his own security company. “Country is falling apart, from the bottom up. We got these lazy people freeloading off the government. Meanwhile the rich just keep getting richer, and working guys are getting screwed. We just got to break the system.”

When it came to race, he jumps to explain: “My ex-wife is black. I have hired plenty of blacks to work for me. I am not a racist. Trump is not the racist. Hillary is the racist, only standing up for women and blacks.”

more Chris Arnande & James Surowiecki : "Economic Anxiety" and Trumpism Once Again - "But point of the history is that when Dems were completely attuned to WWC problems -- '50s and '60s -- WWC was still racist."
posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:07 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Martin Van Buren was bald.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 1:08 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Interestingly enough, Michigan, Texas, West Virginia and North Carolina all allow straight ticket voting.
posted by zarq at 2:37 PM on August 1

This is what Wikipedia says:

North Carolina had an option for voting "straight party" (using the term from an NC ballot) that did not include a vote for the President and Vice President of the United States, through the 2012 elections. A voter ID law enacted in 2013 abolished all straight-ticket voting in the state, and went into effect in 2014.[7][8] The bill eliminating it was HB 589.[9]

However HB589 was just overturned by the United States Court of Appeals. So I suppose the straight ticket ballot is back.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:09 PM on August 1, 2016

You have something to tweet which will greatly upset Donald Trump when he sees it. It's the night of the first Presidential debate. How many hours/minutes before the start of the debate do you post the tweet?

Trick question -- you have a surrogate tweet it right before Trump's opening statement -- you think he's going to leave his phone backstage?
posted by tonycpsu at 1:11 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

John Quincy Adams was also bald.
posted by zarq at 1:11 PM on August 1, 2016

First bald person, maybe?

Well so there's one thing he has in common with Eisenhower
posted by saturday_morning at 1:11 PM on August 1, 2016

What do Donald Trump voters really crave? More Respect Than Those Other People Get

FTFY

Oh noooo other humans are being treated with dignity! Someone stop this travesty!
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:13 PM on August 1, 2016 [22 favorites]

That Trump would reduce wartime geopolitics to One Strong Leader (who is nonetheless weaker than Trump) is not surprising, but it remains distressing.

I think when Trump imagines being president, he actually imagines being a dictator because he promises the kind of disruptive and not legal changes that only a dictator could implement. Some (not all) of his followers actually want a dictator.
posted by puddledork at 1:16 PM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

more Chris Arnande

I don't mind some of Arnade's stuff -- he walks the walk with people who are truly marginalised -- but it's become a pandering schtick for him to serve as an amplifying voice for the common clay of the new Midwest, just as it's a schtick to act as if every blue-collar worker looks like Mike Ditka.
posted by holgate at 1:17 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fareed Zakaria on CNN, "Donald Trump is a bullshit artist."

With Trump's attacking of the Khans it feels like the dam has broken here, I suspect the press has now decided it's open season on Trump & Co.

About time.
posted by leotrotsky at 1:17 PM on August 1, 2016 [46 favorites]

That Trump would reduce wartime geopolitics to One Strong Leader (who is nontheless weaker than Trump) is not surprising, but it remains distressing.

QFT, plus Marshall did more than Eisenhower.
posted by Etrigan at 1:17 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Every single Republican candidate from Nixon in '72 onward has received more primary popular votes than Eisenhower did in 1956.

It wasn't until the '68 Democratic convention and the feeling then that overtook both the GOP and the Dems that it would be necessary to make the selection process more democratic that they even started to make primaries/caucuses a nationwide thing. Previously, if you were a candidate with strong party-elite support, you didn't even enter the primaries. The reason you ran in a primary was for less established candidates to prove to the party establishment that they could, in fact, win votes. So it was, actually, a sign of weakness as a candidate to put your name down on primary ballots. '68 changed all this and the primaries became important for both the Dems and GOP from '72 on, so comparing your primary vote count with Eisenhower's makes no sense at all, even without taking into account demographic changes. Ike only ran in the primaries because he wasn't a politician in the first place and he had to show the GOP that he could in fact campaign and win votes.
posted by dis_integration at 1:17 PM on August 1, 2016 [13 favorites]

So as I noted this morning, his rally tonight is in a high school in Mechanicsburg. I don't know how many people can fit into a high school gym but I'm guessing not 5000. So he could easily make this part of his campaign format-- insulting fire marshals where ever he goes.

I note that Cumberland Valley High School is "opening their doors at 4 p.m." Why not have these rallys outside? Why must he always try to cram too many people into too small a space? Is it so he can boast that so many people show up they can't all be seated? Or is this a safety measure?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:20 PM on August 1, 2016

That a scummy developer has a long standing and deep-seated issue with fire marshals is about the least remarkable thing of the entire Trump phenomenon to me. And I hope it becomes a daily routine. Trump versus the NFPA - a clear threat to American Freedoms (tm).
posted by meinvt at 1:24 PM on August 1, 2016 [28 favorites]

I'm guessing safety as well as weather concerns. These things are arranged at short notice so you kind of get what you can get. There was a pinball convention on at the convention center I saw (well, stood outside the doors and heard) Hillary at this weekend. The ballroom it was in held 5000 max, and yeah there are bigger rooms at the convention center but there were already other things going on. So it goes. Especially in small towns, options are limited. I've been to lots of presidential campaign rallies in my time and it's pretty par for the course that not everyone is going to get in. Line up early, be prepared to stand around and listen to an atrocious playlist on repeat for many hours. If he had ever had anything to do with politics prior to this year, he'd know this.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:24 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

i think the angles of cultural and economic rage are part of the story. A deeper part, by my eye: the urge to destroy. Marc Maron, in his podcast today, says Trump isn't Hitler, he's Satan, which sounds like bullshit hyperbole. But of course Satan, if he existed, would be a black hole of sociopathic narcissism, and of course his message would be: destroy; and I alone can save you.

I've wondered before: If you put the nuclear code in everyone's hands, would the world last five minutes? What if you gave every person the chance to trigger an earthquake? Or a wall of fire?

What if you let lots of people push that button together, covering for each other? And assured them it probably wouldn't destroy them?

I think lots of people would love to see the wave of destruction, just for kicks. I don't think people think Trump will surgically transform our institutions, I think they just want to see him fuck shit up. The satanic part is I think we all have at least a tiny bit of that same impulse.
posted by argybarg at 1:26 PM on August 1, 2016 [14 favorites]

If I were inclined to look for sense in anything Trump says or does, I might point out that his pique at every law that inconveniences him (of which the fire marshal thing is but one example) is rather at odds with his quest to become the head of the entire freaking executive branch.

I mean, if you don't believe that laws should be obeyed, then why are you running for President?
posted by escape from the potato planet at 1:27 PM on August 1, 2016 [13 favorites]

Hmm... How would Trump react to the "Donald Trump is too cheap to hire large enough halls" meme?
posted by Francis at 1:27 PM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

plus Marshall did more than Eisenhower

Well, so did Stalin and Zhukov.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:27 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Why not have these rallys outside?

For exactly the reason you noted, being able to complain about crowd size- but ALSO, so the wind doesn't fuss up his stupid comb over.

Seriously, the man will not appear outside without that hat. We might have a president who only appears outside when he's wearing a baseball cap.
posted by andruwjones26 at 1:28 PM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

QFT, plus Marshall did more than Eisenhower.

Part of the conspiracy!
posted by Artw at 1:28 PM on August 1, 2016

One narrative people keep trying to further about this election is that it signifies the rebellion of the poor and working classes against the elites.

That theory is not supported by data, according to this piece from 538.com

At $72k, Trump's voters have a higher median income than the nation at large, or than either Sanders' or Clinton's (median income for both is about $61k).

According to estimates at 538, 27% of American have incomes under $30k.
20% of Clinton's voters had incomes under $30k
18% of Sanders' voters had incomes under $30k
12% of Trump's voters had incomes under $30k

Now all of this is self-reported, so maybe Trump's voters are more likely to lie to make themselves richer than they actually are. But I'm going to assume that professional statistician Nate Silver has thought of that possibility.

I also think it's interesting to look at the state-by-state medians for Sanders and Clinton. In many states her median is a touch higher than his -- but then in a few states, notably those in the South, the median incomes of Clinton voters are considerably lower than those of Sanders.

I think this highlights a tendency many people have to conflate "working class" with "white working class" and even "white male working class." But the US working class is only 60% non-hispanic whites now, and that population will become a minority within the working class by 2032. So it's simply not feasible to try to disentangle economic and social justice concerns within that population.
posted by pocketfullofrye at 1:30 PM on August 1, 2016 [31 favorites]

Fareed Zakaria on CNN, "Donald Trump is a bullshit artist."

Oh and he actually says bullshit on television. I love it. Other journalists need to follow suit and stop treating this fool Trump in ways that legitimize his bullshit.
posted by cashman at 1:30 PM on August 1, 2016 [17 favorites]

I mean, if you don't believe that laws should be obeyed, then why are you running for President?

Laws for thee, but not for me, for I am Tronald Dump, Destroyer of ~~Worlds~~ Housing Developments!
posted by Existential Dread at 1:31 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

That Trump would reduce wartime geopolitics to One Strong Leader (who is nontheless weaker than Trump) is not surprising, but it remains distressing.

It's honestly a little surprising, all things considered, that he doesn't compare himself to Zhukov.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:31 PM on August 1, 2016

Oh, hey, the rally that he was complaining about was at the Columbus Convention Center. It is, in fact, a very large building that can hold several thousand people (and in fact, definitely has rooms that can be configured to hold several thousand people) but I'm guessing the fire marshal would not be very happy if you tried to fit more than a 1000 people in a room that could not handle it. I know when I've been to large events* there they do, in fact, make sure that there aren't too many people in a room at once.

*Including the Arnold Classic, which is of course, headlined by a Republican
posted by damayanti at 1:33 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think when Trump imagines being president, he actually imagines being a dictator

What on earth gives you that idea
posted by theodolite at 1:33 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Whats the trump take on Stalin? I mean, he's Russian and a dictator, he liked "firing" people...
posted by Artw at 1:36 PM on August 1, 2016

Donald Trump again boasts that he did better than Eisenhower: 'I got more votes than him

Trump mentions at least once a speech that he got more votes than any Republican in history. In fact I think that was what he wanted Hillary Clinton to congratulate him on. However two things to note about his numbers:

More people voted against him: (Source)
Trump 14,009,107
Others 17,151,110

Clinton got more votes than he did: (Source)
Clinton: 16,313,888
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:39 PM on August 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

It's honestly a little surprising, all things considered, that he doesn't compare himself to Zhukov.

He would have to know who Zhukov was.
posted by saturday_morning at 1:39 PM on August 1, 2016 [23 favorites]

From the Post - A coalition of military support groups, including Tragedy Assistance Program for Survivors (TAPS), Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America (IAVA), Gold Star Wives, Got Your 6, the Travis Manion Foundation, Blue Star Families, and Give an Hour, wrote an open letter demanding respect for the Khan family:

Paul Rieckhoff, the founder and chief executive of IAVA, said that the issue has “infuriated the military and veterans community like nothing I have ever seen before, and the response to what is happening is commensurate.”

Military support organizations don’t often get involved in politics, and some don’t talk to the media, Rieckhoff said. The flap also has drawn attention to an even larger issue, which is that Gold Star families often feel forgotten after their loved one is gone, he added.

“I think this cuts to the very core of the civil-military divide,” Rieckhoff said. “We hope that this is an opportunity to bring light to an issue that has been dominated by heat.”

posted by sallybrown at 1:40 PM on August 1, 2016 [18 favorites]

The stunt of creating - thought your own actions - a crowd of people outside who can be visibly unable to get in is a classic stunt used by all sorts of operations. It's psyops against the people who are stuck outside, making them want to be inside all the more. If they never get in they mentally inflate how great it would be to get in there. If they do eventually get in they get a rush of success. If they were led to believe that there were some sorts of standards about who got in then they get a sense of personal justification at being admitted. People who see the crowd think that what's going on must be good if that many people want in.

The Trump campaign has figured out they can spread another layer of bullshit on top of that, with this creating a narrative of we are being further trod upon so they dodge responsibility while furthering the feelings of disenfranchisement their fans labor under.

Who knew bar/club velvet rope nonsense would work for political campaigns too?
posted by phearlez at 1:43 PM on August 1, 2016 [15 favorites]

One narrative people keep trying to further about this election is that it signifies the rebellion of the poor and working classes against the elites.

That theory is not supported by data, according to this piece from 538.com

I keep on starting new posts on this, and give up because I'm so angry I can't not editorialize. And this is not only relevant in regards to the US election, it's the same with brexit, and with the whole Euro right-wing surge.
posted by mumimor at 1:43 PM on August 1, 2016 [11 favorites]

Howard Stern makes his pitch: Why Hillary Clinton should do my show (It's the Washington Post but it's August 1, so you can probably read this without being blocked, but if you are blocked, use a private window, clear your cookies or Google the headline I just quoted).

So your producers reached out to the Clinton campaign. Do you ever get involved to make a stronger push?

I wouldn’t feel comfortable having someone in who is pressured somehow and kind of overhype the experience. They’ve got to come to that conclusion on their own. Having said that, we’ve reached out and said, we’d love to have Hillary on. And it would expose her to an audience that might not be thinking of voting for her. She could also have a direct pipeline to a lot of people who wouldn’t normally get to hear her speak the way we have the ability to do it. There’s a lot of time to develop an answer. Not do a sound bite. And oddly enough, because of that format, I notice a lot of the media takes the interviews we do and makes sound bites out of them.

(previously)
posted by maudlin at 1:44 PM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

The revanchist vote is essential for Republican electoral success--they're running scared of losing it. Cowards.

To expound on this, Paul Ryan is already fighting an embattled primary which is turning into a referendum on Trump. For Ryan to disendorse and repudiate Trump would be the end of his political career. His opponent, Paul Nehlen, is strongly in favor of Trump and is also an immigration scaremongerer relying on it heavily in the campaign. He's pulled parity with Ryan in polling and has dragged Ryan back to Wisconsin to do local interviews.

McCain also hasn't passed his primary election date of August 30th and is in the same boat. Kelli Ward has become a stronger insurgent candidate with Alex Meluskey dropping out of the race and not playing spoiler on the Ant-McCain vote.

I wouldn't be surprised if more Republicans are being primaried by these utter fucking nutjobs and that's why they're refusing to disendorse Trump. We'll see what happens once the primaries are largely over at the end of the month.
posted by Talez at 1:45 PM on August 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

That theory is not supported by data

Just watching and reading interviews with Trump supporters that had already been my anecdotal take-away. I feel like every time someone at a Trump rally is interviewed and they ask what they do, the answer is always some sort of perfectly gainful employment or a small business owner.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:46 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Donald Trump is complaining that the White House holds state dinners...and also that the dinners are held in a crappy tent.

Again with the tent. Was he invited to a State Dinner once when it was held in a tent? Because I don't think that is usual. (What do I know? I can only go by The West Wing.)
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:46 PM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

He's afraid of wind.
posted by Artw at 1:48 PM on August 1, 2016 [32 favorites]

WaPo: There is something very wrong with Donald Trump

Why denigrate the parents of a soldier who died serving his country in Iraq? And why keep it going for four days? Why assail the record of a decorated general who commanded U.S. forces in Afghanistan? Why make fun of the stature of a popular former mayor of New York? Surely Trump must know that at any convention, including his own, people get up and criticize the opposition party’s nominee. They get their shots in, just as your party got its shots in. And then you move on to the next phase of the campaign. You don’t take a crack at every single person who criticized you. And you especially don’t pick fights that you can’t possibly win, such as against a grieving Gold Star mother or a general. It’s simply not in your interest to do so.

The fact that Trump could not help himself, that he clearly did, as he said, want to “hit” everyone who spoke against him at the Democratic convention, suggests that there really is something wrong with the man. It is not just that he is incapable of empathy. It is not just that he feels he must respond to every criticism he receives by attacking and denigrating the critic, no matter how small or inconsequential. If you are a Republican, the real problem, and the thing that ought to keep you up nights as we head into the final 100 days of this campaign, is that the man cannot control himself. He cannot hold back even when it is manifestly in his interest to do so. What’s more, his psychological pathologies are ultimately self-destructive.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:53 PM on August 1, 2016 [62 favorites]

Speaking of Trump supporters, the NBC Nightly News has a video of Trump supporters being interviewed before a rally, which includes one of them saying he'd support Trump, unless he murdered someone...but if he murdered the right person, he might still support him (Twitter link here; this statement is at the end of the video, if you don't want to watch the whole thing).
posted by carrienation at 1:53 PM on August 1, 2016

I would love for Hillary to do Howard Stern, but not until she takes several steps forward on the "tell it like it is" spectrum. She is, as the Post said over the weekend, excessively legalistic in her answers to certain questions, in a way that is easily mocked by her opponents. Trump's stream-of-consciousness campaign style gives her an opening to be a more honest/"real" candidate, but I don't know if she'll take the risk, especially when she's in the lead.
posted by acidic at 1:54 PM on August 1, 2016

In other news, one of my Trumpophile relatives is now going on about how Seth Rich, a DNC employee who was shot and killed in DC earlier in July, was murdered by Clinton because he was about to testify against her. I guess once you've started murdering colleagues and employees it's a hard habit to break?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:55 PM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

with Alex Meluskey dropping out of the race and not playing spoiler on the Ant-McCain vote.

worst Marvel movie ever.

I guess once you've started murdering colleagues and employees it's a hard habit to break?

That's been my experience.
posted by phearlez at 1:59 PM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

Now Jill Stein Thinks Wi-Fi Might Be Hurting Kids
posted by homunculus at 1:59 PM on August 1, 2016 [20 favorites]

he'd support Trump, unless he murdered someone...but if he murdered the right person, he might still support him

Murdering a random person has always been part of the Trump platform.
posted by Artw at 2:00 PM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

Is Donald Trump OK? Erratic behaviour raises mental health questions

Donald Trump is not of sound mind,” conservative Stephen Hayes wrote two weeks ago in the Weekly Standard.

“Have we stopped to appreciate how crazy Donald Trump has gotten recently?” liberal Ezra Klein wrote last week on Vox.

He “appears haunted by multiple personality disorders,” conservative David Brooks wrote last week in the New York Times.

“We can gloss over it, laugh about it, analyze it, but Donald Trump is not a well man,” Stuart Stevens, chief strategist to Mitt Romney’s 2012 campaign, wrote last week on Twitter.

Stevens, the most prominent political figure to persistently broach the subject, conceded that he is “no doctor or psychiatrist.” But he said in an interview that the available evidence leads to two possible conclusions: either Trump has a substance abuse problem, which appears unlikely, or “there is something definitely off about him.”

“At best, this is a very damaged person,” Stevens said. “And there’s probably something more serious going on.”

Trump’s campaign vehemently disagrees.

“I’m sure you saw Mr. Trump’s medical report released in December of last year, which described him as perhaps the healthiest individual to ever be elected President (paraphrasing) — I refer you to that,” spokeswoman Hope Hicks said in an email.

Oh yeah, the infamous medical report-- that's reassuring.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:00 PM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

She is, as the Post said over the weekend, excessively legalistic in her answers to certain questions, in a way that is easily mocked by her opponents.

I agree with you about Clinton's conversational style.

One of the very few things that D. Trump and B. Sanders have in common is they are not lawyers. H. Clinton is a lawyer. Sometimes she uses long, convoluted sentences. Sometimes she seems to calculate what she can say that sounds good and isn't exactly a lie. Most voters prefer the non-lawyer style of answering.
posted by puddledork at 2:02 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Murdering a random person has always been part of the Trump platform.

Strangely, it's one of the few things he hasn't changed his position on. Shooting a random person, being pals with Russia, and building a wall.
posted by sporkwort at 2:02 PM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

either Trump has a substance abuse problem, which appears unlikely

Iiiiii'm not so sure of this. I think he can both have multiple destructive personality disorders and be utterly hopped up on goofballs simultaneously!
posted by soren_lorensen at 2:03 PM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

He's obviously suffering from Republicanism
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 2:04 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

From homunculus's link:

Jill Stein: We should not be subjecting kids’ brains especially to that. And we don’t follow that issue in this country, but in Europe where they do, they have good precautions around wireless—maybe not good enough, because it’s very hard to study this stuff. We make guinea pigs out of whole populations and then we discover how many die. And this is like the paradigm for how public health works in this country and it’s outrageous, you know.

I think the (non)dangers of non-ionizing radiation are pretty well-known at this point. Perhaps you also advocate for shutting down the cell towers, banning all emergency responder walkie-talkies, and closing down the radio stations as well?
posted by Existential Dread at 2:06 PM on August 1, 2016 [14 favorites]

I apologize if this has been covered in the past, but what's the party protocol if he did want to drop out of the race? What about if he had a true-blue breakdown and was declared incompetent?
posted by R a c h e l at 2:07 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

What is the over/under on Stein talking about chemtrails before the end of August?
posted by winna at 2:08 PM on August 1, 2016 [38 favorites]

Consensus seems to be that nothing short of death or Trump dropping out would trigger a replacement. There is no party mechanism for ousting him.
posted by argybarg at 2:09 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

If Trump drops out of the race, what would happen?. Rule 9 of this document is the relevant rule:

(a) The Republican National Committee is hereby authorized and empowered to fill any and all vacancies which may occur by reason of death, declination, or otherwise of the Republican candidate for President of the United States or the Republican candidate for Vice President of the United States, as nominated by the national convention, or the Republican National Committee may reconvene the national convention for the purpose of filling any such vacancies.

(b) In voting under this rule, the Republican National Committee members representing any state shall be entitled to cast the same number of votes as said state was entitled to cast at the national convention.

(c) In the event that the members of the Republican National Committee from any state shall not be in agreement in the casting of votes hereunder, the votes of such state shall be divided equally, including fractional votes, among the members of the Republican National Committee present or voting by proxy.

(d) No candidate shall be chosen to fill any such vacancy except upon receiving a majority of the votes entitled to be cast in the election.

posted by dis_integration at 2:10 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

I apologize if this has been covered in the past, but what's the party protocol if he did want to drop out of the race?

Jeb Bush placed on immediate suicide watch.
posted by PenDevil at 2:10 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

To expound on this, Paul Ryan is already fighting an embattled primary which is turning into a referendum on Trump. For Ryan to disendorse and repudiate Trump would be the end of his political career. His opponent, Paul Nehlen, is strongly in favor of Trump and is also an immigration scaremongerer relying on it heavily in the campaign. He's pulled parity with Ryan in polling and has dragged Ryan back to Wisconsin to do local interviews.

ITS NOT EVEN MY BIRTHDAY
posted by schadenfrau at 2:11 PM on August 1, 2016 [31 favorites]

I apologize if this has been covered in the past, but what's the party protocol if he did want to drop out of the race? What about if he had a true-blue breakdown and was declared incompetent?

If he quit, The Republican National Committee would meet to select a replacement. There's no formal mechanism for kicking him out, but as this article makes clear, a lot of these rules just get made up on the fly. There's no rule saying they CAN'T kick him out. (They are not going to kick him out.)
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:12 PM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

more trolling possibilities coming to mind

-industrial-sized fan blowing over stage at first debate
-tweet clips from Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood on tolerance at him, eventually goading him into pissing on Fred Rogers' grave
-all white members Trump's Secret Service protection team request reassignment en masse and weird thing the only people that are available are brown
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:12 PM on August 1, 2016 [14 favorites]

Fareed Zakaria on CNN, "Donald Trump is a bullshit artist."

Trump Responds With Pouting Rant on Twitter

Trump responded as he always does: He took to Twitter and went on a rant, firing off a half-dozen tweets attacking CNN – which he has claimed he never watches:

The tweets boil down to CNN is in the bag for Hillary and they are "completely out of touch with every day people worried about rising crime, failing schools, and vanishing jobs."

I apologize if this has been covered in the past, but what's the party protocol if he did want to drop out of the race? What about if he had a true-blue breakdown and was declared incompetent?

People have asked this several times but there is no definitive answer because it is unprecedented. There might be a move to elevate Pence. Some have suggested that Ryan, Romney or Cruz will step in. I've read that some people think the Republicans would have to do another primary-- which doesn't seem possible in such a short time. So who knows?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:12 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

I wouldn't be surprised if more Republicans are being primaried by these utter fucking nutjobs and that's why they're refusing to disendorse Trump.

Well, I hope their Dem challengers or PACs are running ads against them right now, saying specifically that they're putting their party over their country.
posted by holgate at 2:12 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

CNN/ORC: Clinton up by 9, 52/43.
posted by spitbull at 2:12 PM on August 1, 2016 [11 favorites]

What is the over/under on Stein talking about chemtrails before the end of August?

Fluoridated water? She might even go a full David Icke before we're through.
posted by Existential Dread at 2:14 PM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

Don't get super duper excited; this bounce too shall fade. But actually cracking 50% is a Big Fucking Deal.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:14 PM on August 1, 2016 [19 favorites]

...to fill any and all vacancies which may occur by reason of death, declination, or otherwise of the Republican candidate...

Just... otherwise?
posted by saturday_morning at 2:15 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm glad that Zacaria said "bullshit" on air. It was needed.

As Harry Frankfurt noted, bullshit is its own thing, and the only way to deal with bullshit is to call out bullshitters as bullshitters and tell them to stop bullshitting. Say "BS" or "malarky" if you have to dodge the censors, but be sure that it carries the weight of the word "bullshit".
posted by holgate at 2:15 PM on August 1, 2016 [17 favorites]

Just... otherwise?

Yep. I take that phrasing to mean that they could, technically, just decide to kick him off the ballot. However, I can't imagine anything short of Trump literally murdering someone on camera that would make them do that.
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:16 PM on August 1, 2016

schadenfrau: "ITS NOT EVEN MY BIRTHDAY"

"I hope Paul Ryan gets replaced by a worse copy of himself" wished nobody ever
posted by boo_radley at 2:23 PM on August 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

otherwise

I assume it's intended to mean things like: incapacitation, maybe imprisonment, hiking the Appalachian Trail, plain disappearance, defection to a foreign power, discovery that he does not meet the constitutional requirements (THE LONG FORM BIRTH CERTIFICATE), things like that.
posted by dis_integration at 2:24 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

What Donald Trump Doesn't Get About the Khans:

Asked by Todd about his speech, Khizr said, “Those were my thoughts, and edited by my wonderful wife. I would read it to her while getting ready, while travelling on the train. And she would edit. And she would say, ‘No, you’re not going to say this. No, this is not for the occasion.’ ” What she took out, he said, was some personal invective about Trump, and cracks, for example, about plagiarism in Melania Trump’s speech. Of all the addresses at the Convention, Khan’s said most plainly that the wrongness of Trump is not his style or tackiness or even obliviousness to world events; it is in his clearly formulated anti-Americanism. Ghazala Khan, it appears, made sure of that.

“She’s my coach, and she was there,” Khizr Khan said on MSNBC. “I was strengthened by her presence. Forty years of marriage has brought us in a position where we are strength for one another. So her being there was the strength I could hold my composure.” Is that kind of reliance, and respect, in any context, something Trump could ever understand?

posted by sallybrown at 2:26 PM on August 1, 2016 [105 favorites]

-industrial-sized fan blowing over stage at first debate

I've seen some kind of toy that works like a sling-shot where you hold a handle and pull back on the plunger. When you let it go it creates a little puff of wind that has a lot more range and power than you'd expect.
posted by VTX at 2:26 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

That CNN poll has Trump in FOURTH place with non-white voters. FOURTH.

Bye bye GOP.
posted by sallybrown at 2:27 PM on August 1, 2016 [43 favorites]

ITS NOT EVEN MY BIRTHDAY

Well, I hope their Dem challengers or PACs are running ads against them right now, saying specifically that they're putting their party over their country.

Look, right now they are picking country over party. They're not being primaried by nice people that want to give everyone hugs and puppies. Sarah Palin is on Nehlen's side trying to oust Ryan. Nehlen literally floated a black tub labelled "drugs" across the Rio Grande as a publicity stunt to show how easy it was to smuggle drugs into America.

Kelli Ward on the other hand is a completely different kettle of nutjob fish. She has convened a Chemtrails hearing. She has sponsored bills rejecting Agenda 21. She was there at the Bundy ranch. She is a big heaping bowl of fucking crazy.

Republicans don't get primaried from the left they get primaried from the right. If Ryan or McCain get primaried out I can guarantee you the replacement will be an order of magnitude worse. By staying in power and hitching their horse to Trump, win or lose, they're keeping these nutjobs out in some of the safest R seats in the country.
posted by Talez at 2:28 PM on August 1, 2016 [11 favorites]

Watching John Oliver's bit on the DNC it's just occurred to me that when Trump, in response to Khizr Khan, counts having "built great structures" among his supposed sacrifices—it seems almost certain, given the volume of construction projects he's been involved in, that workers must have been injured or even killed doing his bidding. So he's probably claiming as a personal sacrifice those structures which other people have given their health or lives to construct.

The very first thought I had upon hearing that response of Trump's is that these are the kinds of claims that any king or pharaoh or aristocrat could have made at any time in history, that the very act of owning things and paying for things bestows upon him the same virtue as someone who has died for the sake of another. It's the 21st century version of the Code of Hammurabi, where it's an eye for an eye unless the guy inflicting the injury is a nobleman, and then giving over some silver is equivalent to the other guy losing an eye.
posted by XMLicious at 2:28 PM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

Watch Donald Crack - "One of the most useful psychiatric terms I've picked up in my travels is the word "decompensation." "
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:28 PM on August 1, 2016 [12 favorites]

I've seen some kind of toy that works like a sling-shot where you hold a handle and pull back on the plunger. When you let it go it creates a little puff of wind that has a lot more range and power than you'd expect.

OK let's get all the remnant (post)-BernieBros off their dank memes and into trump events with these toys. They wanna troll, let them troll.
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:29 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Even if I was willing to switch allegiance from the Democrats to the Greens why would I be willing to vote for Stein. She's shown a willingness to pander to all sorts and peddle all sorts of WOO and FUD.

Is the Green party so devoid of a solid message that their only consistent message is LOL Republicans and Democrats are totally the same yo!

Nader peddling that bullshit was a stretch in 2000 and Stein has only the smallest fraction of the accumulated good will that Nader had.
posted by vuron at 2:29 PM on August 1, 2016 [21 favorites]

“She’s my coach, and she was there,” Khizr Khan said on MSNBC. “I was strengthened by her presence. Forty years of marriage has brought us in a position where we are strength for one another. So her being there was the strength I could hold my composure.”

Cautious viewing of speech highlights through a Metafilter...um...filter prevented me from tearing up during the convention, but damn if it isn't getting dusty in here.
posted by infinitywaltz at 2:30 PM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

Today in Trump crazy. Reporters learn that his claims to have sacrificed to help build the Vietnam War memorial in New York are bogus. Then later reporters found tape of him saying that sleeping around was his own personal Vietnam.
posted by humanfont at 2:32 PM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

Now Jill Stein Thinks Wi-Fi Might Be Hurting Kids

All I need is Chemtrails or Jet Fuels Can't Melt Steel Beams to win on my Jill Stein bingo card.
posted by tclark at 2:34 PM on August 1, 2016 [11 favorites]

All I need is Chemtrails or Jet Fuels Can't Melt Steel Beams to win on my Jill Stein bingo card.

Is "Wake up, sheeple!" the center square?
posted by infinitywaltz at 2:35 PM on August 1, 2016 [17 favorites]

Then later reporters found tape of him saying that sleeping around was his own personal Vietnam.

I think the idea is his sacrifice was allowing his precious bodily fluids to touch another person.
posted by happyroach at 2:37 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

> Now Jill Stein Thinks Wi-Fi Might Be Hurting Kids

Oh FFS. They made Portland Public Schools waste a few hundred grand to defend themselves from a concerned citizen about wifi.
posted by mrzarquon at 2:38 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Honestly, it was quite clear just watching Ghazala Khan stare at me through my TV screen that she was saying more than her husband despite her silence and that nothing happened in that family without going through her. I will remember her husband brandishing his Constitution certainly, but more than that, this woman staring into the nation's soul with righteous indignation was burnt into my brain well before Trump ever brought her up.

He said as much in one of the interviews (can't remember if it was the Lawrence O'Donnell one or Meet the Press) -- anyway, something to the effect of "My wife helped me write this speech, I would absolutely not have done this without her help, and she is the tough one in this family."
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:40 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

His reply was startling, even by Trumpian standards. “I would like to think she would find another career or find another company if that was the case,” he said.

This might get through to a couple of guys who are his voters now, but might go for Johnson instead. If he was the genuine tough take-no-prisoners big man he's pretending to be, his first response would be outrage at the idea of someone hurting his little girl. Patriarchs are supposed to carry responsibility, after all, and many a Trump voter has no doubt shared a meme like GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, DADS WITH DAUGHTERS KILL PEOPLE. It's hardly a Dukakis-at-the-debate moment, but it's one more indicator that the man isn't who he's passing for.
posted by Countess Elena at 2:42 PM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

his precious bodily fluids

"Women uh... women sense my power and they seek the life essence. I, uh... I do not avoid women, Mandrake. But I... I do deny them my essence."
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 2:45 PM on August 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

USA Today: What if someone had treated Ivanka in the way Ailes allegedly behaved?
His reply was startling, even by Trumpian standards. “I would like to think she would find another career or find another company if that was the case,” he said.

Come on, is there any doubt that "the way Ailes allegedly behaved" is totally Trump's management style? It's probably covered in a clause in the NDA he makes his employees sign.
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:46 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

Except, wouldn't Johnson, a libertarian, similarly conclude that the 'free market' should sort out horrifying sexism in the workplace?
posted by gatorae at 2:47 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

This might get through to a couple of guys who are his voters now, but might go for Johnson instead. If he was the genuine tough take-no-prisoners big man he's pretending to be, his first response would be outrage at the idea of someone hurting his little girl. Patriarchs are supposed to carry responsibility, after all, and many a Trump voter has no doubt shared a meme like GUNS DON'T KILL PEOPLE, DADS WITH DAUGHTERS KILL PEOPLE. It's hardly a Dukakis-at-the-debate moment, but it's one more indicator that the man isn't who he's passing for.

Trump doesn't have kids. He has investments.

“I mean, I won’t do anything to take care of them. I’ll supply funds and she’ll take care of the kids. It’s not like I’m gonna be walking the kids down Central Park,” Trump said in the interview. He repeated the same sentiment to Stern two years later, saying, “Melania is a wonderful mother. She takes care of the baby and I pay all of the costs.”

posted by Talez at 2:50 PM on August 1, 2016 [11 favorites]

Yeah, but the hope is that otherwise safe R voters will go for Johnson because they can't have Trump on their conscience.
posted by Countess Elena at 2:51 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump asked for help, got none:

Rob Wasinger, a onetime congressional candidate who has been working for the Trump camp on congressional outreach, sent an email to senior Senate aides saying, "We want to get several member statements out today on this, and would really appreciate your help."

A similar appeal was made to Republicans in the House of Representatives, according to a senior aide.

Attached to the appeal were talking points lawmakers could use to try to tamp down the controversy growing since last week's appearance at the Democratic convention by the Khans, the parents of U.S. Army Captain Humayun Khan, who was killed by a bomb in Iraq 12 years ago.

The Trump campaign did not respond to requests for comment, and Wasinger refused to comment when contacted by telephone.

The appeal did not generate any help for Trump.

posted by sallybrown at 2:53 PM on August 1, 2016 [50 favorites]

Warren Buffett, introducing Hillary in Omaha, just challenged Trump to jointly release their tax returns and take questions from the public <3
posted by acidic at 2:54 PM on August 1, 2016 [42 favorites]

Except, wouldn't Johnson, a libertarian, similarly conclude that the 'free market' should sort out horrifying sexism in the workplace?

shhhh our enemies are destroying each other, don't get in the way
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:55 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

If the Grand Unifying Theory of the 2016 Far Right still holds -- the continuity between goobergobshites and Trumpists -- we're probably at the point in the cycle where the doxxing and SWATting and death threats begin. Ugh.

There was plenty of personal information released in the DNC hacks, and I won't dignify what at least two Trump supporters have called for by saying it explicitly. But we are already at two out of three here. Ugh is right.
posted by one_bean at 2:57 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

The appeal did not generate any help for Trump.

heh even the historical Reuters/AP/USA TODAY-type masters of mushymouthed equivocation be throwing shade like they're black twitter these days
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:58 PM on August 1, 2016 [17 favorites]

for real: has the trump campaign gotten any good news since the DNC?
posted by murphy slaw at 3:07 PM on August 1, 2016

Trump just said if people found out what he does in Kentucky, he'd be in trouble. Umm, what?

#whatTrumpdoesinKY needs to happen, right now.
posted by T.D. Strange at 3:08 PM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

White dudes: I don’t know who’s worse: Hillary or Trump.
LGBTQ people: Trump is.
Black people: Trump is.
Undocumented immigrants: Trump.
Muslims: It’s Trump.
Women: Trump duh.
White dudes: *shoves head deeper into ass* I just… don’t… know…
posted by scaryblackdeath at 3:10 PM on August 1, 2016 [74 favorites]

I would love for Hillary to do Howard Stern, but not until she takes several steps forward on the "tell it like it is" spectrum

Has Bernie been on? He seems like a natural. So does Tim, oddly.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:12 PM on August 1, 2016

Then later reporters found tape of him saying that sleeping around was his own personal Vietnam.

In the litany of other occasions when Trump has tried to take advantage of veterans and veteran issues that story links to another one about Trump unsuccessfully trying to bribe a veterans group to be a prop at an event, which New Hampshire State Rep. Al Baldasaro appears in—Baldasaro being the Trump advisor who called for Clinton's execution.

Baldasaro has since clarified that he wasn't talking about anything Benghazi-related, he was really actually saying that she should be executed as punishment for violation of email policy.

Today he's re-tweeting Walid Shoebat and saying that Humayun Khan was a Muslim Brotherhood agent.
posted by XMLicious at 3:13 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Dammit, why is Clinton making dumb comments about her email server? Now they're talking about how the WaPo gave her Four Pinocchios for her comments on Sunday about it. STAHP. STAHP HILLARY. Let Trump implode! Don't remind people of their (often wrong) impressions about your email shit!

I am no highly paid political operative but I'll help out her campaign. When asked about her email server, the answer from now on should be:

"We've discussed this exhaustively in the past and I think everything has already been said on this topic. We are focused on how to improve the lives of the American People moving forward through... (insert campaign spiel)."

Hire me, Clinton campaign?
posted by Justinian at 3:14 PM on August 1, 2016 [38 favorites]

for real: has the trump campaign gotten any good news since the DNC?

well there keep being words coming out of Donald's mouth so I'd have to say no to that
posted by tivalasvegas at 3:18 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm a bit disconnected when it comes to campaign donation rules, regs, customs, etc., so if this is an obvious answer, thanks for being kind ahead of time:

I was poking around opensecrets.org in light of Trump's most recent tweet regarding Hedge fund donations for both candidates. And when you look at his personal top donor data I'm wondering why the US Government is listed in the top 10 contributors?

Also, I just found another reason to not fly American Airlines...
posted by danapiper at 3:21 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Hrm. Possibly he's taking public financing?
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 3:25 PM on August 1, 2016

Then later reporters found tape of him saying that sleeping around was his own personal Vietnam.

The Dude: I don't see any connection to Vietnam, Donny.
Donny: Well, there isn't a literal connection, Dude.
The Dude: Donny, face it, there isn't any connection.
Walter Sobchak: Shut the fuck up, Donny.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:28 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

And when you look at his personal top donor data I'm wondering why the US Government is listed in the top 10 contributors?

It's in the fine print (emphasis in original):

"This table lists the top donors to this candidate in the 2016 cycle. The money came from the organizations' PACs; their individual members, employees or owners; and those individuals' immediate families. At the federal level, the organizations themselves did not donate, as they are prohibited by law from doing so. Organization totals include subsidiaries and affiliates."

Individual donors who list the US gov't as their employer.
posted by current resident at 3:28 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

I was poking around opensecrets.org in light of Trump's most recent tweet regarding Hedge fund donations for both candidates. And when you look at his personal top donor data I'm wondering why the US Government is listed in the top 10 contributors?

Private citizen donations are routinely correlated to the industry the donor works in.
posted by NoxAeternum at 3:28 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

The donor data you're seeing there doesn't mean any particular company (or the government) donated the money. Companies cannot, by law, contribute directly to Presidential campaigns, to the extent that Trump's campaign is supposed to be reimbursing the Trump companies for the fair market value of all goods and services they provide.

What opensecrets.org does is take the self-reported employer data from individual contributors (donors are required to provide this for reporting purposes) and aggregate it. As they explain:

This table lists the top donors to this candidate in the 2016 cycle. The money came from the organizations' PACs; their individual members, employees or owners; and those individuals' immediate families. At the federal level, the organizations themselves did not donate, as they are prohibited by law from doing so. Organization totals include subsidiaries and affiliates.

If I got enough people who work for my employer to donate, it would show up there, whether or not my employer supports any candidate or even cares about the election.
posted by zachlipton at 3:31 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

I just poked around free republic, people are freaking out and posting open letters to Donald begging him to stay on message, show humility, maybe STFU a little.

This thing is going to fall apart fast.
posted by vrakatar at 3:32 PM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

I love this place. Thanks everyone - for the explanation and just generally being awesome and keeping us all sane(ish) this election season.
posted by danapiper at 3:32 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Ugh. The Seth Rich conspiracy theories are just pissing me off. Could people please leave grieving families alone?
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 3:34 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

I just poked around free republic, people are freaking out and posting open letters to Donald begging him to stay on message, show humility, maybe STFU a little.

I can't deny my schadenfreude, but: does it occur to them that they're supporting a candidate who they think needs to be begged to behave semi-reasonably?
posted by escape from the potato planet at 3:35 PM on August 1, 2016 [21 favorites]

How sad, the guy who co-produced the Lego movie is Trump's top donor so far :(
posted by cell divide at 3:36 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

BOYCOTT LEG-- oh who am I kidding
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 3:38 PM on August 1, 2016

Eh, Free Republic is mostly whining about media unfairness and urging Donald to really lay into 'em. Plus now their enemies are "libtard fire marshals."
posted by argybarg at 3:39 PM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm back from protesting Pence's speech in Carson City! It was blazing hot and quite sparsely attended. The police and construction workers were very kind, and a non-Trump supporter brought me and the other two protesters some bottles of water. Here's my sign. The responses were as follows:

1x "Young an' dumb." (Trump organizer/volunteer)
1x "LIBTARD!!" (Young white man in a big pickup)
1x angry "GO TRUMP!!!" (Older white man in a big pickup)
1x happy "Gary!"
1x "FUCK OFF!"
1x "POKEMON!"
1x fist pump + "I'M WITH TRUMP!! BUILD THE WALL!!" (one of two 40s-ish white guys on motorcycles)
1x "HOW 'BOUT YOU GIVE ME A BLOWJOB" (second of two 40s-ish white guys on motorcycles)
1x "ARE YOU STUPID?!" (old white guy in big pickup)
1x "What is WRONG with you?!" (old woman going into the speech)
1x (addressed at the older suffragette lady I was protesting alongside, who was holding a MY BODY MY CHOICE sign) "What are you worried about? No man would want YOUR body, bitch." (middle-aged woman going into the speech)

And countless thumbs-ups, thumbs-downs, smiles, waves, and middle fingers. It was 99 degrees and there was no shade so I'm going to go take a nice cool shower now.
posted by stolyarova at 3:39 PM on August 1, 2016 [138 favorites]

The data can sometimes be even more misleading though, because an increasing amount of big dollar super pac contributions are being funneled through anonymous LLCs and social welfare organizations, which leads to some of the biggest donations being untraceable.
posted by zachlipton at 3:40 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Good for you, stolyarova!!!
posted by sallybrown at 3:41 PM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

WaPo: There is something very wrong with Donald Trump

I know two people who have worked with Trump on two separate things* and both said he hears voices (their characterization.) Kept complaining about people talking when no one was speaking. On one occasion, my friend went to the door and called out - to nobody - for quiet. That seemed to work and he stopped complaining for the short time remaining.

* Sorry for the sockpuppet and minimal details. Given the small industry involved, I don't want to out them or me.
posted by mynewsockpuppet at 3:44 PM on August 1, 2016 [80 favorites]

I was looking for a company affiliated with Peter Thiel and couldn't find one... Also, the CEO of CKE (Carl's Jr./Hardees) was one of the Trump delegates who home address was closest to me, and no CKE on the top donors list. Hmmm...
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:44 PM on August 1, 2016

"I hope Paul Ryan gets replaced by a worse copy of himself" wished nobody ever

posted by boo_radley at 2:23 PM on August 1
[8 favorites +]

I'm hoping for more of a Todd Akin style flameout, but even so, a dumb whackadoodle with no influence is far preferable to Paul Ryan's smooth yet still evil and considerable power as Speaker.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:44 PM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

His reply was startling, even by Trumpian standards. “I would like to think she would find another career or find another company if that was the case,” he said.

Unbelievable. So she is supposed to find a new career because her boss is sexually harassing her. Way to be supportive, Dad! I'm sure it would absolutely no problem to whip up an entirely new career at the drop of a hat. And if the new boss does the same thing, well time to move on. That'll surely lead to success in life.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:45 PM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

know two people who have worked with Trump on two separate things* and both said he hears voices (their characterization.) Kept complaining about people talking when no one was speaking. On one occasion, my friend went to the door and called out - to nobody - for quiet. That seemed to work and he stopped complaining for the short time remaining.

Yup, sounds like amphetamines.
posted by schadenfrau at 3:49 PM on August 1, 2016 [11 favorites]

BOYCOTT LEG-- oh who am I kidding

i will skip leg day if you think it will aid the cause
posted by murphy slaw at 3:51 PM on August 1, 2016 [22 favorites]

Trump also drew criticism on Monday afternoon for suggesting that he might seek to ban The New York Times from his campaign events, something he has already done to other news organizations.

At the rate we're going it will be People magazine and USA Today who are the only ones left with press passes.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:51 PM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

Tomorrow he will be speaking at Briar Woods High School in Ashburn, Virginia at 11:00 a.m.

Another day, another high school gym.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:56 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Marc Maron, in his podcast today, says Trump isn't Hitler, he's Satan, which sounds like bullshit hyperbole. But of course Satan, if he existed, would be a black hole of sociopathic narcissism, and of course his message would be: destroy; and I alone can save you.

Rene Girard's thoughts on Satan and scapegoating seem quite relevant here:

"How do we comprehend this idea? Let us go back to the moment when the divided community, at the height of the mimetic process, reestablishes its unity against a single victim who becomes the supreme scandal because everyone, in a mimetic fervor, holds this one to be guilty. Satan is the violent contagion that persuades the entire community, which has become unanimous, that this guilt is real. He owes one of his most ancient and traditional names to this art of persuasion. He is the accuser of the hero in the book of Job, before God and even more so before the people. In transforming a community of people with distinct identities and roles into a hysterical mass, Satan produces myths and is the principle of systematic accusation that bursts forth from the contagious imitation provoked by scandals. Once the unfortunate victim is completely isolated, deprived of defenders, nothing can protect her or him from the aroused crowd. Everyone can set upon the victim without having to fear the least reprisal."
posted by EarBucket at 3:57 PM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

Tomorrow he will be speaking at Briar Woods High School in Ashburn, Virginia at 11:00 a.m.

If I'm the Ashburn fire marshal am I licking my lips anxiously or licking my chops excitedly?
posted by dersins at 3:58 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

People magazine and USA Today who are the only ones left with press passes.
nope, all National Enquirer (the publisher is a personal friend) and Fox News, but with Ailes out, depends on which Murdoch son ends up in charge
posted by oneswellfoop at 3:58 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Unbelievable. So she is supposed to find a new career because her boss is sexually harassing her.

Completely believable, once you understand the mindset that is always the woman's fault. In this case, "She can't accept a compliment", or "She must have been flirting and it got it of control. " or even "Hey, men will be men. They have urges, you know?"
posted by happyroach at 3:59 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

The Khans are on Hardball right now with Chris Matthews.
posted by Sophie1 at 4:01 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

If I had any religion, I'd WISH Satan were as incompetent as Trump.

Of course, this opens up possibilities for Trumpish variations on "The Seven Circles of Hell", which would obviously include an eternal Trump rally and working as a housekeeper at Mir A Lago.
posted by oneswellfoop at 4:02 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yes, but happyroach we are talking about Ivanka here. I do believe that Trump thinks of Ivanka as an extension of himself. That's why I'm so surprised at how unsupportive he comes across.

Trump says Saudi Arabia would collapse in a week if our troops left. In reality, Bush moved them 13 years ago.

Also, it's not just NYT in his cross-hairs: Trump says he's refusing to do any interviews with CNN until it starts reporting honestly on him. "Fox has been fair.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:03 PM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

For This Republican, Never Trump Means “I’m With Her” by Caroline McCain (grandaughter of John McCain)

The party I grew up in, the party I want to work in and change and push to be more inclusive, betrayed me and countless others. The party chose for its king a demagogue who wears a wig instead of a crown, and a celebrity in pursuit of fame and fortune rather than service and sacrifice. If this is where the party is going — building walls to keep immigrants out, irrationally objecting to international trade, railing against marriage equality, then I’m gone. [...] I (and you) don’t have to buy into a demonized portrait that has been painted of [Hillary Clinton] for years. I can question her policy without questioning her character. I can criticize her past decisions, without reading corruption back into all of them. I can believe those closest to her when they say her faith is authentic, her character good, and her ambition animated by a heart of service.

posted by OnceUponATime at 4:03 PM on August 1, 2016 [67 favorites]

John Falcon is offering about a dozen different Trump tattoos for fellow supporters out of his Slate Hill parlor called Anarchy Ink.

The ink is being offered for free for those willing to have the billionaire businessman's likeness permanently etched into their skin.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:06 PM on August 1, 2016

Mrs. Khan just broke down on camera after Matthews asked her how it felt to see her son in his uniform for the first time and now I'm wrecked.
posted by chris24 at 4:09 PM on August 1, 2016 [15 favorites]

"I have such a soft place in my heart when I see the American flag." Talking about the copy of the constitution Khizr Khan shows Chris Matthews "Look at the condition. It is all marked up. I read it. All the time." Ghazala Khan is crying.
posted by Sophie1 at 4:09 PM on August 1, 2016 [11 favorites]

Can you get the free Trump tattoo from this guy and pay someone else to do a prohibitory symbol tattoo over it?
posted by zachlipton at 4:09 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

My god, these parents. They just put a picture of Captain Khan on the screen and it's just so sad. I worry about the Khans, but goodness, they are what America is supposed to be about.
posted by cashman at 4:09 PM on August 1, 2016 [38 favorites]

Trump says he's refusing to do any interviews with CNN until it starts reporting honestly on him. "Fox has been fair.

This is extra hilarious because Trump's only substantial strategic advantage over Clinton is the literally billions of dollars of free media he's been getting.

By mid-October he might be down to Breitbart, Guns and Ammo, and Fascist Shithead Monthly.
posted by dersins at 4:10 PM on August 1, 2016 [12 favorites]

Yes, but happyroach we are talking about Ivanka here. I do believe that Trump thinks of Ivanka as an extension of himself. That's why I'm so surprised at how unsupportive he comes across.

I think that makes it even simpler, given aTrump's narcissism. "They're paying attention to ME! They want me! They think I'm sexy!"

For Trump to see how his daughter might not find the attention flattering world require some empathy. So that won't happen.
posted by happyroach at 4:10 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

The party chose for its king a demagogue who wears a wig instead of a crown, and a celebrity in pursuit of fame and fortune rather than service and sacrifice.

GodDAMN that's a hell of a burn.

John Falcon is offering about a dozen different Trump tattoos for fellow supporters out of his Slate Hill parlor called Anarchy Ink.

I know which one I'd pick (mildly NSFW, cartoony gore)
posted by Existential Dread at 4:11 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Asking Khan about an apology from Trump: "No apology needed. The best apology would be that his supporters repudiate him and pronounce their repudiation. We don't need an apology from him. We are beyond those apologies. We were promised several months ago he will pivot in the right direction, he will change, he will do all that."
posted by zachlipton at 4:13 PM on August 1, 2016 [42 favorites]

I love that The Daily Show was cited in aid of expanding voting access.

Ex-GOP official goes bonkers after court cites his ‘Daily Show’ remarks to kill NC voter ID law:

Former North Carolina Republican official Don Yelton is back in the news again for all the wrong reasons.

Yelton was fired from his job way back in 2013 after he told The Daily Show that his state’s new voter ID law would hurt Democratic voters. Specifically, he said that if the law “hurts a bunch of lazy blacks that want the government to give them everything, so be it.”

An appeals court last week found that the voter ID law was indeed designed to be discriminatory and it even cited Yelton’s remarks to The Daily Show as part of its case for striking down the law.

On a related note, good news for those of us who have been missing Jon Stewart's voice this election season: Jon Stewart’s New HBO Series to Be an Animated Cable News Parody.
posted by palindromic at 4:14 PM on August 1, 2016 [40 favorites]

Fascist Shithead Monthly

They have great recipes. Tremendous recipes. You just cut them out and put them in that little box you have on that thing above the stove, that sort of spice rack thing where the recipe box goes, and you know what you can't even cook the way you want anymore because all these ingredients are being banned by the EPA. Sad!
posted by tclark at 4:14 PM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

Looks like he is in Maine on Thursday, in Portland. Maine which has gone Democratic for the last 30 years. If you want to go he will speaking at the Merrill Auditorium at 10:00 a.m.

"I think it's exciting for Republicans, and for all voters, to have Maine matter in the national political discussion," said Maine Republican Party Executive Director Jason Savage. "I don't see Donald Trump as somebody who looks at voter registration as the indicator of where he needs to be and where his message needs to be. I think he's looking for those people who really understand that the system's been rigged for a long time in favor of the [Washington] D.C. elites, and he's out there talking to those people."

In other words, Trump hasn't a clue as to what he is doing.

Fascist Shithead Monthly.

Have you been peeking in my mailbox? In my defense, they have great crossword puzzles.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:16 PM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

The 2016 Republican convention is the first after which a greater percentage of Americans have said they are "less likely" rather than "more likely" to vote for the party's presidential nominee.

For once I guess the answer to the question "are you seeing this shit?" Is actually "yes".
posted by Artw at 4:21 PM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

Fascist Shithead Monthly

+10 Speech for 5 minutes?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:22 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Maine has a Republican governor, Paul LePage, who's of the I'm A Maverick new breed Republicans, with a rich interesting history, who's both disavowed and then endorsed Trump.
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:22 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

If I had any religion, I'd WISH Satan were as incompetent as Trump.

Part of Girard's theory of Satan is that he's doomed because he's inherently divisive; he can't stop picking fights because that's the essence of his nature, and as Jesus says, "How can Satan drive out Satan? He is then divided; his kingdom cannot stand." Scapegoating strengthens a communal identity in the short run, but in the long term, it's hopeless.
posted by EarBucket at 4:24 PM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

Paul LePage, "America's craziest governor", wants in on Trump administration (Vanity Fair from May 5, 2016)
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:25 PM on August 1, 2016

Mother of a veteran just confronted Mike Pence over Donald Trump's remarks about the Khan family & why Pence continues to stand by Trump.

I wonder if Pence knew he would be bargaining away his soul in order to have a crack at the White House.

Yelton was fired from his job way back in 2013 after he told The Daily Show that his state’s new voter ID law would hurt Democratic voters. Specifically, he said that if the law “hurts a bunch of lazy blacks that want the government to give them everything, so be it.”

There have been a number of times on the Daily Show past and present when people interviewed have said such unguarded, shocking things that you wonder what they were thinking. Do you just realize what you said? You do know that this is being filmed, right?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:25 PM on August 1, 2016 [24 favorites]

Of course Khizar Khan also just said that we need more homeland security screening so terrorists don't come in the country, so look forward to Trump making a big deal out of how much they agree pretty soon.

Apparently he was quoted in some news story a couple of years ago calling for all American Muslims to denounce terrorism and to turn in people in their community who they knew to be dangerous. He's pretty much impossible to hit from any sort of "soft on terror" angle, which is probably part of the reason they picked him.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:26 PM on August 1, 2016 [17 favorites]

There have been a number of times on the Daily Show past and present when people interviewed have said such unguarded, shocking things that you wonder what they were thinking. Do you just realize what you said? You do know that this is being filmed, right?

After reading that article... dude is legitimately unhinged. He was not thinking anything.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:27 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Boston Globe from June 30: LePage - Trump bromance blooms in Bangor
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:28 PM on August 1, 2016

There have been a number of times on the Daily Show past and present when people interviewed have said such unguarded, shocking things that you wonder what they were thinking.

I tend to wonder, did they at least google 'daily show' before agreeing to this interview?
posted by palindromic at 4:29 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Zakaria called Trump a bullshit artist, and Mr. Khan just called him a snake oil salesman. Love it.
posted by chris24 at 4:29 PM on August 1, 2016 [11 favorites]

Khizr Khan just called the orange one, compass-less and a snake oil salesman.
posted by Sophie1 at 4:30 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

If I'm the Ashburn fire marshal am I licking my lips anxiously or licking my chops excitedly?

Linda Hale is the Fire Marshal for Loudoun County, VA, and it looks like she's not afraid to do the right thing under the safety code, politicians be damned. Sounds like she'll have none of Trump's crap.
posted by sallybrown at 4:31 PM on August 1, 2016 [12 favorites]

> I wonder if Pence knew he would be bargaining away his soul in order to have a crack at the White House.

Probably. It's not like he was using it.
posted by Spathe Cadet at 4:32 PM on August 1, 2016 [13 favorites]

After reading that article... dude is legitimately unhinged. He was not thinking anything.

Dude got used to dealing with tame-ass "journalists" who would habitually bury that shit and got taken suprised by a lack of fairness and balance, I expect.
posted by Artw at 4:32 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

These Motherfuckers: Voting Rights Edition
posted by homunculus at 4:33 PM on August 1, 2016 [14 favorites]

That's "Human Bowling Jacket Paul LePage" to you, people.

When Hillary takes over, Charlie Pierce will be the US Secretary of Snarky Nicknames
posted by tonycpsu at 4:33 PM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

John Cena Dressed Up as Hillary Clinton at the Teen Choice Awards and Looked Simply Smashing (video)
posted by kirkaracha at 4:35 PM on August 1, 2016 [20 favorites]

There have been a number of times on the Daily Show past and present when people interviewed have said such unguarded, shocking things that you wonder what they were thinking.

The S.O. and I just had this conversation. We concluded that these people simply live in a bubble that prevents them from realizing how whack-a-doodle they are.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:37 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

bahaha, so now Trump has tweeted "Thanks to @pnehlen for your kind words, very much appreciated." @pnehlen is Paul Nehlen, who is currently running against Paul Ryan. /gets popcorn
posted by gatorae at 4:38 PM on August 1, 2016 [52 favorites]

Wow, Warren Buffett has launched this website: drive2vote.org and personally pledged to drive 10 people to the polls who wouldn't otherwise be able to get there.
I've been thinking about whether my husband and I should drive people to the polls in NH, this could be a way?
posted by peacheater at 4:40 PM on August 1, 2016 [35 favorites]

I tend to wonder, did they at least google 'daily show' before agreeing to this interview?

I know that in the past, TDS producers have told guests that they are being interviewed for a Viacom or Viacom Media Networks program (owners of TDS).
posted by zakur at 4:40 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

I don't follow professional wrestling at all, so it's weird I have competing favorites.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 4:40 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

I wonder if Pence knew he would be bargaining away his soul in order to have a crack at the White House.

He had to know this from the start. Yet if he somehow didn't, that 60 Minutes interview he did beside Trump should've been enough. He's not some average person putting up with a terrible job and a shitty boss because he's desperately hanging on from paycheck to paycheck. Absent that sort of need, anyone with a shred of self-respect would've stood up in the middle of that interview and said, "Fuck you, buddy, you're on your own."

Pence's real mistake was in not doing that, or just straight-up punching him. He'd have turned his shitty reputation around overnight.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 4:42 PM on August 1, 2016 [15 favorites]

gatorae: "bahaha, so now Trump has tweeted "Thanks to @pnehlen for your kind words, very much appreciated." @pnehlen is Paul Nehlen, who is currently running against Paul Ryan. /gets popcorn"

I just saw this. Man, Trump is one heck of a scorpion.
posted by boo_radley at 4:42 PM on August 1, 2016 [13 favorites]

Donald Trump has pledged to do everything in his power to limit access to internet pornography if elected president.

The bipartisan nonprofit Enough Is Enough announced on Monday that the Republican presidential nominee has signed its Children's Internet Safety Presidential Pledge, which outlines five broad anti-porn efforts Trump has effectively vowed to do as president. [snip]

4) Give serious consideration to appointing a Presidential Commission to examine the harmful public health impact of internet pornography on youth, families and the American culture and the prevention of the sexual exploitation of children in the digital age.

I know the Republican platform had something similar but the idea that Trump would examine how porn had impacted families and the American culture is a bit hard to swallow when he has spent his life objectifying women.

bahaha, so now Trump has tweeted "Thanks to @pnehlen for your kind words, very much appreciated." @pnehlen is Paul Nehlen, who is currently running against Paul Ryan. /gets popcorn

Whoa. Trump couldn't possibly decide to endorse Nehlen, could he? Man, I don't know whether to feel sorry for Ryan or giggle. It's tough to shovel shit off your desk every day so you can keep your job only to be told, "You're fired!" because you didn't shovel with a smile on your face.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:43 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

I am losing track of the number of Trump faux pas in the past few days. It is dizzying in a rather wonderful way.

I assume that like their hero, Trump supporters simply don't read.
posted by bearwife at 4:44 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Pence is being a martyr for his faith, which is why he will never drop out. The opportunity to get the White House for evangelical Christianity is a sacrifice he can't pass up.
posted by Sophie1 at 4:45 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trump is one heck of a scorpion.

Well, I'm not shedding any fucking tears for Paul Ryan*. He's one frog that deserves to drown.

What I almost wrote until I thought better of it: "...not cryin' for Ryan."
posted by dersins at 4:45 PM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

When asked about the photos, Trump told The Post: “Melania was one of the most successful models and she did many photo shoots, including for covers and major magazines. This was a picture taken for a European magazine prior to my knowing Melania. In Europe, pictures like this are very fashionable and common.

i guess it's easy to avoid cognitive dissonance if you don't think
posted by murphy slaw at 4:46 PM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

That is an incredibly weakly worded pledge. The best they came up with is to get candidates to pledge to give serious consideration to appointing a commission to investigate porn?

Parent: Will you eat your peas tonight?
Kid: I vow I will seriously consider appointing a commission to study the eating of peas
Parent: Oh this changes everything
posted by zachlipton at 4:47 PM on August 1, 2016 [40 favorites]

LOL. The primary is on August 9! That is a straight-up threat.
posted by acidic at 4:47 PM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

Donald Trump has pledged to do everything in his power to limit access to internet pornography if elected president.

Surely this
posted by dfan at 4:48 PM on August 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

I investigated some porn earlier today. Maybe I should sign up?
posted by kirkaracha at 4:48 PM on August 1, 2016 [12 favorites]

bahaha, so now Trump has tweeted "Thanks to @pnehlen for your kind words, very much appreciated." @pnehlen is Paul Nehlen, who is currently running against Paul Ryan. /gets popcorn

He's not just running against Paul Ryan. He FUCKING LOATHES Paul Ryan:

"This isn’t your normal campaign website. Conventional wisdom says that you should never mention your opponent’s name. But then, this isn’t a conventional campaign."
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:49 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

What's gonna happen to Trump's chan and reddit support if he goes full anti-porno?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:50 PM on August 1, 2016 [22 favorites]

I think for the most part people go into The Daily Show field interviews with their eyes open, and they really are just that weird and perhaps think they can pull it off as a joke. I remember seeing a panel Q&A somewhere way, way back when Colbert and Carell were still on the show, and Madeleine Smithberg was still producing (so, 2002-ish?), and they were already sort of lamenting the fact that they had lost their anonymity, largely because of the Indecision 2000 coverage. They joked that before then, they could get away with telling people some variation of "Oh, we're on cable. Maybe you don't get it. It's channel 45 in New York, not sure what it is here..."
posted by AndrewInDC at 4:50 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump is inching towards calling Khizr Khan a terrorist.

Trump: My Position On Keeping Terrorists Out Is What Bothered Khizr Khan

In an interview with a local Ohio television station on Monday, Donald Trump said that Khizr Khan was really bothered by his position on border security — specifically his promise to keep radical Islamic terrorists from entering the country.

“Well, I was very viciously attacked, as you know, on the stage,” Trump told Columbus Ohio’s ABC affiliate ABC6, when asked about Khan’s DNC speech. “And I was surprised to see it. And so all I did—I have great honor and great feeling for his son, Mr. Khan’s son. But, and as far as I’m concerned, he’s a hero.”

When the interviewer brought up Trump’s position on border security, Trump said, “It’s a very big subject for me. And border security’s very big. And when you have radical Islamic terrorists probably all over the place. We’re allowing them to come in by the thousands and thousands. And I think that’s what bothered Mr. Khan more than anything else.

“And, you know, I’m not going to change my views on that. We have radical Islamic terrorists coming in that have to be stopped. We’re taking them in by the thousands.”

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:50 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trump is inching towards calling Khizr Khan a terrorist.

i like to imagine that Khan is deliberately goading Trump until he says something actionable, and then BOOM-- defamation lawsuit.
posted by dersins at 4:54 PM on August 1, 2016 [13 favorites]

According to the Drive 2 Vote FAQ (Microsoft Word doc), it's only for Nebraska's 2nd congressional district. Nebraska splits its electoral votes.

Is there a way to volunteer to drive voters to the polls in other swing states?
posted by kirkaracha at 4:54 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump: My Position On Keeping Terrorists Out Is What Bothered Khizr Khan

It's times like this that show the inadequacy of idiomatic English. To say that Trump is "doubling-down" doesn't really do this kind of thing justice.
posted by modernnomad at 4:54 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

What's gonna happen to Trump's chan and reddit support if he goes full anti-porno?

You know how Gamergaters all fucking love Jack Thompson?
posted by Artw at 4:54 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

If Paul Ryan loses the primary, who the heck are they going to get to be Speaker? They had a hard enough time getting Ryan to do the job in the first place.
posted by zachlipton at 4:54 PM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

If this doesn't end with Trump calling for the Khans to be locked up, I'll be surprised.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 4:55 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

i like to imagine that Khan is deliberately goading Trump until he says something actionable, and then BOOM-- defamation lawsuit.

This seems like a huge misread of what Khan appears to be doing.
posted by zutalors! at 4:55 PM on August 1, 2016 [45 favorites]

Is there a way to volunteer to drive voters to the polls in other swing states?

Get in touch with your state / county / local party.
posted by dersins at 4:55 PM on August 1, 2016

Trump is inching towards calling Khizr Khan a terrorist.

Tomorrow: "I'm not calling him a terrorist."
Wednesday: "A lot of people are calling him a terrorist, I'm not, but I'm just saying."
Thursday: "Khizr Kahn killed his own son with a suicide bomb and he is also Osama Bin Laden."
Friday: "I never called him a terrorist.
posted by saturday_morning at 4:56 PM on August 1, 2016 [40 favorites]

And, you know, I’m not going to change my views on that. We have radical Islamic terrorists coming in that have to be stopped. We’re taking them in by the thousands.

THIS MAKES ME SO GODDAMN ANGRY.
HOW CAN HE BE ALLOWED TO REPEATEDLY ASSERT THIS WITH NOTHING TO BACK IT UP.

GRRRRRRR
*sets everything within arms reach on fire*

i'm better now. i feel fine.
posted by murphy slaw at 4:56 PM on August 1, 2016 [23 favorites]

What's gonna happen to Trump's chan and reddit support if he goes full anti-porno?

I was thinking that too. It's like, ok, well at least he will have angry white misogynist dudes. And then he said that.
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:57 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

You know how Gamergaters all fucking love Jack Thompson?

They do?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 4:57 PM on August 1, 2016

Paul Nehlen responds: @realDonaldTrump my pleasure, Sir. Just want to Make America Great Again.

*whistles Mandy Moore's "Crush"*
posted by sallybrown at 4:57 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

This seems like a huge misread of what Khan appears to be doing.

Yeah, no, it's not what I think *is* happening, it's just an imaginary story I like to tell myself--one that ends in a shitload of discovery motions.

(I didn't say it was an interesting story.)
posted by dersins at 4:58 PM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

i like to imagine that Khan is deliberately goading Trump until he says something actionable, and then BOOM-- defamation lawsuit.

Oh please, oh please…
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 4:58 PM on August 1, 2016

If Paul Ryan loses the primary, who the heck are they going to get to be Speaker?

At this rate? Nancy pelosi.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 4:59 PM on August 1, 2016 [70 favorites]

I think it's more likely that Trump tries to sue HIM for defamation. Which would be amazing.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:00 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Surely this

I get that this is a joke at this point, but I think we're at the point where this happens. Not all at once, but individuals have their own 'this' moments. Fire Marshals, veterans, Gold Star families, Meredith..
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:01 PM on August 1, 2016 [11 favorites]

They do?

He vaguely paid attention to them and hates the right people so everything else is irrelevant. Reddity/Channy people can be lead around by the nose pretty easily if you pay them half a compliment and are a person who utterly sucks.
posted by Artw at 5:01 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

(from Nehlen's twitter)

Blue-collar makes it to VP of Fortune 500 via Individual Liberty & Constitution: Powered by Optimism & Coffee. Official account of Paul Nehlen for Congress.

It's like he's living in the worst Civilization ripoff ever.

Really though if the Dems win the House in part because (relative) moderates get right-primaried, Paul Nehlen will be a handy bookend to the final chapter of the GOP which will have begun when Eric Cantor got surprise-ousted by Dave Brat in 2014.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:03 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

"What makes you qualified to run this company?"

"The Constitution."
posted by AndrewInDC at 5:03 PM on August 1, 2016

Trump campaign approaches Congressional republicans for support on the Khan controversy. They rebuff him and leak the email instead.
posted by murphy slaw at 5:04 PM on August 1, 2016 [34 favorites]

This has to be the first time that a candidate has like twelve "surely this" items in the hopper at the same time. I can't even keep up with them all. It really does feel like we've finally turned a corner.
posted by diogenes at 5:04 PM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

What's gonna happen to Trump's chan and reddit support if he goes full anti-porno?

They'll completely flip once the lulz are on the other side.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:04 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

"Donald Trump signs pledge to back anti-porn laws if elected president"

Actually, I wouldn't hold it against him if he turned around tomorrow and started denying the shit out of this one.
posted by klarck at 5:04 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Meredith

At some point Meredith will go insane/rogue and intentionally start putting salt in Trump's coffee, scheduling flights to the wrong city, etc.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:04 PM on August 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

Have we definitively established that Meredith isn't the Donald in one of his mother's evening gowns?
posted by murphy slaw at 5:06 PM on August 1, 2016 [23 favorites]

Can anyone cite reliable, recent polls for Ryan vs Nehlen? My weak Google-fu only pulls up a long list of crap links from Breitbart and things that somehow look even less reliable than Breitbart.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:06 PM on August 1, 2016

It really does feel like we've finally turned a corner.

I wonder how many times Kasich's, Rubio's and Cruz's campaign managers said something like this.
posted by dersins at 5:07 PM on August 1, 2016 [12 favorites]

BTW, was there a positive message at the DNC?

We need to come together in a broad coalition to make things better for everyone. Individuals are important and should be listened to. Black women are fucking awesome. The US is full of diversity, and a lot of them were on our stage. #Black Lives Matter. Gavels are hard to remember. Amateur speakers are among the most powerful speakers. We can make a fully accessible stage, including a podium which resizes itself to fit each speaker. Hillary met with a lot of individual people and they really, really love her. Balloons are fun for all ages.

And for myself - not all of us are going to agree, sometimes we'll really disagree, but we can still take care of each other and treat each other with respect. I have a lot of love for the people who are determined and dedicated to pushing the democratic party further less, and the people holding their nose to vote for Hillary, and even the ones who aren't there but want a better world for us all.
posted by Deoridhe at 5:08 PM on August 1, 2016 [41 favorites]

I keep thinking about Trump's germophobia and purity fixations and wondering if he could be stopped forever using a simple, War of the World's scenario.

I envision an agent who embodies as many as possible of the traits that Trump fears: i.e., a fat, Latina woman, sans make-up, over 40, ideally with visible plaque psoriasis or something similar, plus maybe a thick, old-school maxi-pad bulge in her pants. Our operative approaches Trump at a televised meet-and-greet, extends her hand for a shake, and then, at just the right moment, she releases precisely targeted and very damp bazooka sneeze that splatters the Orange Chupacabra full in the face.

My bet is that we'd get a Dean Scream and then some.

I'm picturing cringing, whimpering, backward-scampering, hair-clutching, tears, panicked bleats for Purel and bleach, the works-- and after the footage racked up a couple million views, his image as a bulletproof strongman would be shot. Never again could he standard-bearer for American toxic masculinity.

Beyond a doubt, it would be deeply and morally wrong for someone to intentionally do this. It's a crass exploitation of disability. It's germ warfare, on however small a scale. It's arguably battery, and it's definitely an intentional infliction of emotional distress. We are, are all of us, better than this, and we absolutely must never allow ourselves to sink so low.

Yet, even though I know it would be morally inefensible; and even though I would never, ever do such a thing; sometimes I can't help but look at the guy through these aging Latina eyes of mine, scratch the patch of psoriasis on my knee, let my lipstick-free mouth curl and lift my chubby and indifferently-tweezed face into a smile, and think:

"You weak, pathetic, mewling little hate-grub. My snot could END you."
posted by Harrogatha Christie at 5:08 PM on August 1, 2016 [50 favorites]

I'd be surprised if there were polls in the home district of the Speaker of the House during the primary season.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:08 PM on August 1, 2016

murphy slaw: "Trump campaign approaches Congressional republicans for support on the Khan controversy. They rebuff him and leak the email instead."

I feel like a lot of them would rather have Hillary in office but would never in a million years admit that.
posted by octothorpe at 5:08 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'd be surprised if there were polls in the home district of the Speaker of the House during the primary season.

Someone upthread said he's traveled back to his home district somewhat unexpectedly because the polls were getting close. I googled around but couldn't find any recent polling.
posted by sallybrown at 5:11 PM on August 1, 2016

Did the media wake up a bit after the DNC? It seems like the Trumpian nonsense they would have let slide a week or two ago is getting pushback now. Like maybe they were embarrassed at DNC's national stage to broadcast how much dumb and horrible shit Trump said with no follow-up questions or challenge.
posted by palindromic at 5:11 PM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'd be surprised if there were polls in the home district of the Speaker of the House during the primary season.

His campaign is probably doing polling itself.
posted by octothorpe at 5:12 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

Hmm. You know Trump BFF Peter Thiel is big at Facebook... Facebook Might Owe The IRS As Much As $5 Billion In Back Taxes Countdown to Tramp statement about "IRS overreach"... 10... 9... (and the fun part: he'll use Twitter to complain about how they're unfair to Facebook)
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:13 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Someone upthread said he's traveled back to his home district somewhat unexpectedly because the polls were getting close. I googled around but couldn't find any recent polling.

Well, he's almost certainly got internal polling numbers, so maybe that's it?
posted by dersins at 5:13 PM on August 1, 2016

Can anyone cite reliable, recent polls for Ryan vs Nehlen? My weak Google-fu only pulls up a long list of crap links from Breitbart and things that somehow look even less reliable than Breitbart.

As of July 15, Ryan was up 69-20.
posted by waitingtoderail at 5:13 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

At this rate? Nancy pelosi.

I think I said this before months ago when Democratic recapture of the House was pretty much a pipe dream, but I can think of nothing better than having Nancy Pelosi writing the laws that Hillary Clinton signs and implements.

And, y'know, Harry Reid is leaving Congress....
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:14 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Did the media wake up a bit after the DNC? It seems like the Trumpian nonsense they would have let slide a week or two ago is getting pushback now.

A little bit, yeah. See the Stelter interview above.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:18 PM on August 1, 2016

Have we definitively established that Meredith isn't the Donald in one of his mother's evening gowns?

Some people say that Donald Trump...
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:18 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

538's Now-cast had Clinton at 44.6% five days ago (July 27), now 82.2%. The closest to a swing state that the GOP is ahead in is Georgia.
posted by dfan at 5:19 PM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

538's Now-cast had Clinton at 44.6% five days ago (July 27), now 82.2%.

I bet that number is going to move around a lot.
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:21 PM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

538's Now-cast is clickbait for Democratic hand-wringers honestly
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:22 PM on August 1, 2016 [37 favorites]

If you follow the Now-cast you'll go batty, it's ridiculously oversensitive and is only useful as a very, very point-in-time snapshot. Better to look at the polls-only 538 number -- or better yet, as others have mentioned, Sam Wang & the Princeton Election Consortium. Graphics not as flashy, content not as breathless.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:23 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

That's why I refresh it constantly. CONSTANTLY.
posted by Justinian at 5:23 PM on August 1, 2016 [21 favorites]

538's Now-cast is clickbait for Democratic hand-wringers honestly

I believe the preferred nomenclature this cycle is "bed wetters".
posted by modernnomad at 5:25 PM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

Yes, I didn't intend to imply that the Now-cast was an accurate barometer of the actual probabilities come November; I was just surprised by just how much it had moved in five days. Carry on.
posted by dfan at 5:25 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Irony (noun)
- That thing that would happen if Trump's loses his whitehouse bid because of a Muslim-American.
(From my lips to #deity's ears!!)
posted by ramix at 5:27 PM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

Yes, I didn't intend to imply that the Now-cast was an accurate barometer of the actual probabilities come November; I was just surprised by just how much it had moved in five days. Carry on.

I, personally, do not think you are a bedwetter
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 5:27 PM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

I would love for Hillary to do Howard Stern.

You mean the guy who on his TV show once put a woman's head in a toilet and flushed it to punish her for answering a quiz incorrectly?

Yuck, no. Just no. What a terrible message it would be to validate Stern.
posted by JackFlash at 5:29 PM on August 1, 2016 [27 favorites]

Nate Silver complaining that people are not overreacting to the polls, after a couple weeks of complaining about how people are overreacting.

Banish the 538 Nowcast!
posted by sallybrown at 5:30 PM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

Carson claimed Hillary consorted with Lucifer...Donald goes right ahead and says Hillary *is* the devil.
posted by sallybrown at 5:35 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

On 538, the "polls only" for Florida went from 56-44 Trump to 55-45 Clinton between today and yesterday.
posted by diogenes at 5:35 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

How did that happen? That seems way too reactive.
posted by peacheater at 5:36 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

How did that happen? That seems way too reactive.

Looks like the projected vote share only shifted by like one point - that shift is the 'odds of winning.'
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:40 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

> Donald Trump has pledged to do everything in his power to limit access to internet pornography if elected president.
Trump's signature on the group's pledge follows the Republican Party's official 2016 platform, which identifies pornography as a “public health crisis that is destroying the lives of millions.” The inclusion of that item follows a law passed by Utah lawmakers in April, which deemed pornography as detrimental to the “sexual health of future generations.”

Public health crisis, you say?

CDC issues a travel advisory to Florida, which has 10 new cases of Zika

Democrats demand Congress end its vacation to approve Zika funding

The Zika crisis: How Congress abandoned its duty to govern
posted by homunculus at 5:40 PM on August 1, 2016 [32 favorites]

> That seems way too reactive.

Given how strongly Trump has been offending people, I'd imagine there is going to be more reactive polling. Also possibly more people interested in sharing their opinions about him to pollsters.
posted by mrzarquon at 5:40 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

that shift is the 'odds of winning.'

Correct. I should have been more clear. Still a huge swing though.
posted by diogenes at 5:41 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Looks like the projected vote share only shifted by like one point - that shift is the 'odds of winning.'

Well, yeah, I guess that's what I meant - the projected vote share only shifted by one percent, but 538's model gives a huge shift to the "odds of winning" now.
posted by peacheater at 5:43 PM on August 1, 2016

There's kind of a curve in terms of poll smoothing, I think (n.b.: IANAStatistician, to the extent that I just had to google how to spell it).

I think Nate Silver done good in bringing some of this data-driven analysis to horse-race politics. But he's gone off the path a bit in the last few cycles and particularly this year, when he found it increasingly difficult to reconcile what he "knew" to be true about Trump's popularity with the things his model was spitting out.

It seems pretty clear that some adjustments to numbers need to be made to properly control for factors like race, gender, age, likely voter screens, etc. But once you get much beyond that it becomes increasingly difficult to resist the unconscious bias (in the sociological, not statistical sense) toward one's own partisan leanings. Or not even partisan leanings so much as one's own sense of the dynamics and narrative of the race.

And at that point you're just a mathy pundit.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:46 PM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

Well, yeah, I guess that's what I meant - the projected vote share only shifted by one percent, but 538's model gives a huge shift to the "odds of winning" now.

That does make sense though -- it's much more than 25% better to have a four-point lead as opposed to a three-point lead because bell curve.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:47 PM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

How did I miss this gem from Trump?

There were other moments to savour. At one point, a reporter asked Trump if he thought the Geneva Conventions were out of date. This is a bit like asking a jar of marmalade what it thinks about string theory, but let’s admire the reporter’s willingness to swing for the fences.

Trump’s response will be familiar to anyone who was ever called on to deliver a book report—but hadn’t read the book. “I think everything’s out of date,” he said. Got that? Everything. Rules that govern armed conflict. International treaties. Bolo ties. Everything is out of date. Mark the words of Donald J. Trump: America will never be great again until it gets rid of its high-waisted Mom jeans.

posted by zakur at 5:49 PM on August 1, 2016 [44 favorites]

Yeah, you're right tivalasvegas, I was thinking about the eventual probability of winning, but since this is the now-cast, that does make sense.
posted by peacheater at 5:49 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

This is a bit like asking a jar of marmalade what it thinks about string theory, but let’s admire the reporter’s willingness to swing for the fences.

shaaaaaade
posted by murphy slaw at 5:50 PM on August 1, 2016 [28 favorites]

> This is a bit like asking a jar of marmalade what it thinks about string theory, but let’s admire the reporter’s willingness to swing for the fences.

When asked, Paddington had no comment.
posted by mrzarquon at 5:52 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

Apparently, at his rally tonight, Trump also called Hillary Clinton "the devil."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:56 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Projection
posted by EarBucket at 5:56 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

And panic
posted by EatTheWeek at 5:58 PM on August 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

Ryan's spokesman responds to Trump's compliment to Ryan's opponent by saying he won't engage in a "back-and-forth."

Wimp.
posted by sallybrown at 5:58 PM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

Nate Silver is on Chris Hayes rn what a mashup
posted by zutalors! at 5:59 PM on August 1, 2016

One thing is for sure: following the action in this election has made my Google Now news cards a shitshow. I just got presented with a Return of Kings card and I want to light my phone on fire.
posted by soren_lorensen at 5:59 PM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

There was a tiny bit of context around the "devil" statement. He was talking about Sanders, saying

"he's made a deal with the Devil…she's the Devil"

i guess you could say that he misspoke but i'm trying to remember a time when he just spoke without an implied mis-
posted by murphy slaw at 6:01 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

When you are having a bad day, fire somebody. (Tip #27 from Donald Trump's Big Book of Deals for Dummies)

Donald Trump fires senior adviser Ed Brookover: sources

U.S. Republican presidential candidate Donald Trump on Monday fired senior adviser Ed Brookover, two sources close to his campaign said.

Brookover was hired in June to serve as a liaison between the Trump campaign and the Republican National Committee.

Really, the jokes write themselves.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:13 PM on August 1, 2016 [32 favorites]

> "I’m afraid the election’s going to be rigged."

Josh Marshall: Feel The State Tremble
posted by homunculus at 6:14 PM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

Supporting Trump: the GOP's Equivalent of the Iraq War Vote
posted by homunculus at 6:19 PM on August 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

Hillary going on Howard Stern's show? "Confessor. Feminist. Adult. What the Hell Happened to Howard Stern?" (warning: NYT Arts Section, which I consider one of the LEAST credible sources in the mainstream media)

I feel like a lot of them would rather have Hillary in office but would never in a million years admit that.
Most Republican bigwigs are waiting it out... if it's getting close to election day, Trump hasn't removed himself and his numbers approach the "crazification factor", then a flood of Name Republicans are going to get behind Gary Johnson. Probably 30-45 days to allow for enough lead time to print 'slate cards' with Johnson on top and R's the rest of the way down. But they wouldn't do it any sooner, in case Dumb Donald's head explodes and they get to appoint a 'Real Republican'.

Have we definitively established that Meredith isn't the Donald in one of his mother's evening gowns?
Or do you mean his wife's evening gowns? Or are you suggesting he may be dressing up as his mother and knifing guests in the Mir-A-Lago's showers? Because PsychoTrump makes way too much sense: Homicidal Maniac With No Originality.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:22 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Watch Donald Crack - "One of the most useful psychiatric terms I've picked up in my travels is the word "decompensation." "

Can we ...not. Especially not that word, please. I get to most people not in the field it seems like it means "even crazier than usual", but decompensation is very specific and it's not what Trump is doing right now.

I also encourage people to not get on the "crazy" bandwagon too far. The problem isn't that Trump might or might not have a mental illness - it's that he leverages hate in the service to gaining power for himself. The splash damage of leaning hard onto "crazy" is broad and none of them deserve that.
posted by Deoridhe at 6:22 PM on August 1, 2016 [48 favorites]

This is glorious! Muslim women call out Donald Trump with #CanYouHearUsNow

Alaa Murabit (@almmura) Hey D. I spend my time creating solutions w presidents & the like (so I guess we'll never meet) #CanYouHearUsNow
posted by Room 641-A at 6:23 PM on August 1, 2016 [26 favorites]

fuck i really thought that 25 lb bag of popcorn i bought last week was gonna be enough
posted by entropicamericana at 6:24 PM on August 1, 2016 [28 favorites]

You know how Social Security is typically the 3rd rail of US politics. As in don't fuck with it if you value your political career.

I'm kind of thinking that nobody bothered to label the rail associated with attacking the Military because nobody thought anyone would be stupid enough to actually do it.
posted by vuron at 6:26 PM on August 1, 2016 [36 favorites]

The New York Times just sent out a breaking news alert for this story: Donald Trump Avoided Draft With a Heel Problem, but the Details Are Murky, explicitly linking it to his attacks on the Khans.

Much as I am so sick of every election being a fight over who did what during the Vietnam War (I was born well after the war ended and having every election of my youth caught up in that argument was rather annoying, so I was glad we finally got away from that), I can't say I'm not enjoying the popcorn.
posted by zachlipton at 6:31 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

As more and more Rs desert the sinking ship, a new question rises: how does the Dem GOTV machine keep turnout high and convert a Hillary landslide into Senate and Congressional gains?

I live in a metro area of safe D districts. My hometown, 3000 miles away, is in a safe R gerrymandered district with a crappy sacrificial D challenger. These are the places where I can spend the most time but will have the least impact. What can I do to turn Congress blue?
posted by infinitewindow at 6:32 PM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

Supporting Trump: the GOP's Equivalent of the Iraq War Votei

I think that article makes some really good points. I think, though, that Kasich, if he runs, will meet the same end as the anointeds this cycle: Jeb!, Christie, Rubio. The conservative establishment has been gutted -- except for a few ideologically-motivated outliers (and those are usually either Christianist or libertarian), most business types have migrated to the Dems or are about to take the leap.

Part of this is a knock-on effect of globalization. It used to be that you had lots of relatively wealthy regional families / business interests. Think the Waltons & Arkansas. In my neck of the woods, West Michigan, it was the DeVos and VanAndel families, founders of Amway, and a side order of some of the furniture manufacturing magnates. They influenced or controlled state Republican parties.

That's not the case anymore. The business elite who make the big donations and direct business opinon are ensconced in New York City, Silicon Valley, LA, Chicago, Atlanta -- world cities in blue regions or at least blue enclaves. And they vote blue, or if they didn't 5 years ago, they do now.

The battle for the soul of the Republican Party will be fought between Evangelicalism and white nationalism. I don't know what the losing side will do though.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:33 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

My favorite part of candidate Obama is that he was too young to serve in Vietnam. I'm honestly done with it.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:35 PM on August 1, 2016 [12 favorites]

That NYT story. Gloves are off, for real.
posted by EarBucket at 6:39 PM on August 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

I was done with it in '92, before I was even old enough to vote. But if resurrecting it can discredit Trump, then, fuck it, I'm all in.
posted by box at 6:40 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

I just came to comment on that New York times alert. Usually they only send the alerts for major events and breaking news. I don't remember ever receiving anything like this. Here's the text:

"Trump, who criticized the parents of a slain Muslim soldier, received 5 deferments from the Vietnam draft, including 1 for bone spurs."
posted by diogenes at 6:43 PM on August 1, 2016 [13 favorites]

Rachel Maddow just dug up some brilliant Sesame Street satire of Trump from 2005.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:43 PM on August 1, 2016 [19 favorites]

Projection

one of the keys to understanding Trump is that he is always talking about himself. His speeches are only comprehensible if you replace every mention of America or United States with Donald Trump. A decade of humiliation and failure - that happened to him. The same goes for every mention of Hillary Clinton. She's a liar, she does everything for personal enrichment, she destroys anyone in her way - those attacks don't even make sense. it's just his sick brain screaming at itself.
posted by theodolite at 6:46 PM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

Trump would obviously also take the gloves off in response to this outrage but, sadly, he can't wear gloves as they keep slipping off his tiny, tiny hands.
posted by Justinian at 6:47 PM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

This from an article about the Koch Brothers worries me:

Koch has put the network’s budget at roughly $750m through the end of 2016. A significant portion was supposed to help elect a Republican to the White House but this weekend Mark Holden, general counsel and senior vice-president of Koch Industries, said it would instead go to helping GOP Senate candidates in at least five states: Ohio, Pennsylvania, Nevada, Wisconsin and Florida.

That's potentially 100 MILLION dollars for each key Senate race (assuming SOME money will go elsewhere). Is it humanly possible to counter that kind of money?

and tivalasvegas' comment: The business elite who make the big donations and direct business opinon are ensconced in ... world cities in blue regions or at least blue enclaves. And they vote blue, or if they didn't 5 years ago, they do now.

If so, the BoBs are going to be as unreachable as Trumpsters for the Dems. But then, Brexit was passed with votes from both the far right and far left (but more of the first). It will help make it unpleasant to be a Democrat in ways that neither an election victory of voters nor a surplus of money will help.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:52 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

It sure feels like the NYT was just sitting on that.

Yup, and then dropped it when it could do maximum damage. And then promoted the hell out of it. Not that I'm complaining.
posted by diogenes at 6:52 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

The Sesame Street clip went directly to Facebook, do not pass Go, do not pick up 200 pieces of trash.
posted by Sublimity at 6:53 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Sorry about the Sesame Street link. I'm on my phone. Google Sesame Street Grump and it comes right up.
posted by Sophie1 at 6:58 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well they should. The last ride of print media Wyatt Earp and the Immortals.
posted by vrakatar at 6:58 PM on August 1, 2016

I just came to comment on that New York times alert. Usually they only send the alerts for major events and breaking news. I don't remember ever receiving anything like this.

eh, they've had a pretty expansive definition of "breaking news" for a while now (in which ~~some asshole~~ me signs his name to a stupid letter complaining about it).
posted by zachlipton at 6:58 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

MSNBC was just showing the Trump rallies on mute on small screen instead of cutting away from, say, the Khans to the rallies.

I think the media has done a ton of damage already though, not sure how much credit I'd want to give them.
posted by zutalors! at 6:58 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sesame Street Link (worked fine for me, but the original link was mobile; maybe that does something with phone access that doesn't affect people on laptops): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQyTpPu0gvc
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 7:01 PM on August 1, 2016

There is a swiftboating smell to it, but while distasteful it may be poetic. And actually true.
posted by vrakatar at 7:02 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

The Khans are on Lawrence O'Donnell's show right now.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:03 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Showing off Trump used to be the best audience grabber. Now humiliating Trump is. Nothing political, all business... show business.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:04 PM on August 1, 2016 [17 favorites]

Four college AVOID VIETNAM cards and he can't form a sentence, ah hell i need another drink.
posted by vrakatar at 7:06 PM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

"squirming Trump" has a lot more ring to it than "little Marco," or "Crooked Hillary, " or "lying Ted."
posted by yesster at 7:07 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Honestly, we don't need to swiftboat Trump in order to sink him.

I felt like that was dirty pool in 2004 and is distasteful now. We don't need to wrestle with the pigs guys.

Just keep pointing to how his behavior is clearly outside the bounds of civilized behavior.

Hell at this point in time I would just start doing commercials of him saying crazy shit and then have a little old southern grandma do one of those sarcastic "Bless his heart" voice overs. Like he's too pathetic to even engage with.

He'd fucking flip out.
posted by vuron at 7:07 PM on August 1, 2016 [15 favorites]

"Whatever he's saying, doesn't matter to me. I'm a very strong Muslim woman." -Ghazala Khan.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:08 PM on August 1, 2016 [40 favorites]

Yeah, everyone, I come to metafilter for sanity and a good place to be on the internet, and while we've made a lot of progress over time (looking back on old threads can be really painful), we still really need to examine how quickly we go to mental illness to explain certain people's actions, especially people with strident political views, especially of the violent kind, that the majority of people here disagree with.
I agree that sometimes this is a relevant issue, but I personally am not going to be able to stomach the rest of this election cycle if this becomes our narrative. If real, verified evidence comes up, then fair game, but the speculation just has to stop, and early.
Every time there is a major violent act committed by a person we do this, and all it does is distract from the real issue at hand, and at best excuse horrible actions because of mental illness, and at worst lay the horrible actions at the feet of mental illness in general. If we have to do that every time Trump shows his true evil colors I will simply collapse.

It's not been a real issue yet, and I don't feel like anyone's being malicious, but there were flashes of it earlier in the thread and I want it stamped down fast.
Mental Illness =/= extremist political views, Mental Illness =/= being a huge asshole, and Mental Illness =/= being a violent person. These are all perfectly possible to be while being as mentallyu healthy as a person can be.
posted by neonrev at 7:08 PM on August 1, 2016 [36 favorites]

Donald Trump fires senior adviser Ed Brookover: sources

I guess CNN's going to have a new pundit in a few days.
posted by dirigibleman at 7:09 PM on August 1, 2016 [11 favorites]

"Swiftboating" refers to an unfair or untrue attack. I don't think this is either of those things.
posted by diogenes at 7:12 PM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

Brookover was Trump's liaison to the RNC. He's burning his bridges.
posted by EarBucket at 7:12 PM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

The Khans are on Lawrence O'Donnell's show right now.

I'm still worried about them. Like in a caring parent way. Just cause they're way older than me doesn't mean I can't care about them and you can't stop me, nyah!

Less jokingly, in their earlier interview, Chris Matthews asked about how the Khan's other children felt about them doing interviews, and Mr. Khan said they were private kids and they did approve of them speaking at the DNC, and now want them to be able to wrap this up as soon as possible, and get back to normalcy.

Adding additional context, I watched CNN earlier today, and one woman, I believe she was a journalist or consultant, was up against Jeffrey Lord while Michael Nutter was also there, and she took a moment to say thank you for all muslims in America. Something akin to "Thank you. Thank you for standing up against this bully, who has been saying these horrible things about us for years and months. Thank you! The Khans are the people we have been waiting for!"

So keep that in mind as to why they've been speaking out continuously. I think they're balancing the wishes of family against those who have reached out to them and wholeheartedly thanked them. And they're in a unique position to do this, which I'm sure is not lost on them, in that as a Gold Star family, they are beyond question to most normal people. When Pence was confronted tonight, he had to say that the Khan family is to be loved and celebrated, and got (begrudging) applause from the crowd that was booing seconds earlier when the woman stood up and started confronting Pence.

I just want to thank them for being this brave. I want Obama to like invite them to the white house for mani-pedis and tea. I want Biden to be at the door to greet them both with hugs and best wishes. All the best to these folks. Bravery runs in this family.
posted by cashman at 7:13 PM on August 1, 2016 [55 favorites]

Mr. Khan saying that he visits the graves of several young men at Arlington, including one lieutenant who came to their house after the death of their son, who asked to see Captain Khan's memorabilia, to be a comfort to his family. Mr. Khan spoke at this lieutenant's funeral.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:16 PM on August 1, 2016 [46 favorites]

Mr. Khan saying that he visits the graves of several young men at Arlington, including one lieutenant who came to their house after the death of their son, who asked to see Captain Khan's memorabilia, to be a comfort to his family. Mr. Khan spoke at this lieutenant's funeral.

Yep. That made me cry.
posted by zutalors! at 7:17 PM on August 1, 2016 [12 favorites]

I'm generally pretty quick to slam obvious equations of "OMGWTFBBQ" with mental illness since people can say and believe completely irrational things without being mentally ill.

I think it's also important to note that even when people are acting in really really odd ways that also doesn't necessarily correspond to a possible mental illness. Or to a substance abuse problem (which is also a convenient shorthand in our culture).

There are some elements of Trump's recent behavior that might possibly point towards organic brain syndrome which is can be used to describe some decreased mental function due to a medical issue unrelated to a mental illness and Trump's current age and increasingly erratic and aggressive behavior might be symptomatic of something along that lines but we truthfully would need a medical doctor to make that sort of determination. And we've been assured that Trump is healthy as an Ox.
posted by vuron at 7:18 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

Couple deleted; maybe let's forego the cornball joke about the Khan name.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 7:19 PM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

Half-serious prediction: Ivanka Trump reveals herself to be a saboteur to her father's campaign. All the pieces are there.
posted by yesster at 7:19 PM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

Donald Trump Hired Me As An Attorney. Please Don’t Support Him For President.
posted by Artw at 7:19 PM on August 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

Ivanka Trump reveals herself to be a saboteur to her father's campaign

If so, it'll be years from now.
posted by penduluum at 7:21 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

No Ivanka needs to reveal he betrayal on the night of the election as she figuratively plunges the knife repeatedly into Trump's back before she reveals that she's a special guest at the Clinton watch party and that she's got a new reality show scheduled for NBC in the Spring.

Oh and by the way she's bought up a controlling interest in Trump's company and she's firing her father and brothers for being fuckwits.
posted by vuron at 7:26 PM on August 1, 2016 [14 favorites]

Oooh, my new Trump family fan-fiction scenario: Donald is a total bully, and he has made his kids' lives miserable since the day they were born, and Ivanka has orchestrated the entire presidential run to destroy him, as revenge.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:26 PM on August 1, 2016 [11 favorites]

I don't know why Ivanka gets all this credit for being secretly great. She seems like no prize.
posted by zutalors! at 7:29 PM on August 1, 2016 [13 favorites]

Jokes aside, Ivanka did go out of her way to make a point in her RNC speech of neither being democrat or republican, thus setting the ground for convenient switching as necessary in 5 or 10 years...
posted by modernnomad at 7:29 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

This entire weekend has been a hilarious disaster. Any one of these gaffes would easily fill a whole news day in a normal election. I miss normal elections.
posted by codacorolla at 7:31 PM on August 1, 2016 [11 favorites]

Ivanka is as much of a con artist as any other Trump. Let's be real here.
posted by Yowser at 7:34 PM on August 1, 2016 [21 favorites]

Ivanka totally rickrolled her stepmother on one of the biggest stages available in US television.

This is practically Greek tragedy level drama.
posted by yesster at 7:35 PM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

Quick, somebody play cribbage with Trump and skunk him. He's clearly really good at handling loss and rejection, so I am sure it would be resolved without any yelling or tears.

Take a nap, Donny. The adults are trying to get things done here.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 7:35 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Mitten's 47% comment is so tame in comparison to any of the things Trump has done in the last week, it's hard to believe that used to be considered a giant fuckup.
posted by gatorae at 7:35 PM on August 1, 2016 [34 favorites]

The splash damage of leaning hard onto "crazy" is broad and none of them deserve that.

I agree and disagree with this. There is an alluring diagnostic framework -- and as I've noted, it's one that professionals may invoke when they're off-duty -- but diagnostic frameworks matter primarily for diagnosis and for coming up with a treatment plan. There's not much value to be had from amateurs throwing around DSM-5 criteria.

However, I think we ought to recognise that this is not a normal campaign and the system is not well-prepared to deal with Trump's temperament. If a family member is a threat to themselves or others, you can get a court order and have law enforcement come and get them checked out (and make sure their guns are locked away). As Josh Marshall has suggested tonight, if the campaign proceeds along this trajectory, with emotional volatility and erratic behaviour, there's a non-zero chance of Trump doing something dangerous -- or worse, giving the green light to his most ardent supporters to do so. He's already talking about rigged elections.

There's no political equivalent to family (so far) in a position to make the call. Will there be? Would his actual family do so?
posted by holgate at 7:36 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yea, I don't get why people would ever give Ivanka a pass. I can't think of a nominees child that's more involved in a campaign, she's complicit. She defended him against claims of sexism, and her speech at the RNC made it seem like Trump was a huge supporter of women's rights. She then used her speech to hock her clothesline on Twitter. She's in on this con, she benefits from this campaign and its rhetoric.
posted by airish at 7:36 PM on August 1, 2016 [32 favorites]

Yeah, everyone, I come to metafilter for sanity and a good place to be on the internet, and while we've made a lot of progress over time (looking back on old threads can be really painful), we still really need to examine how quickly we go to mental illness to explain certain people's actions, especially people with strident political views, especially of the violent kind, that the majority of people here disagree with.

I understand what you're getting at, and, probably to some degree, where you're coming from. But in the last thread (or this thread? they're all blending together) most people weren't talking about vague mental illness. It was people with personal experience with narcissists (many seemed to have a parent with NPD) going "holy shit that is a narcissist, and he wants to be commander in chief." More than one person noted that watching him was like an extended PTSD flashback.

Those aren't careless comparisons. It's possible that Trump does have NPD, and it's possible to discuss that without making harmful generalizations.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:37 PM on August 1, 2016 [22 favorites]

Oh and by the way she's bought up a controlling interest in Trump's company and she's firing her father and brothers for being fuckwits.

And then she detonates the jars of wildfire she's hidden under the Trump hotels...
posted by happyroach at 7:37 PM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

I don't raise questions about Trump's mental health as some sort of ad hominem attack, or because I want to tar him with the (undeserved) stigma of mental illness. I do it because I actually think he may be mentally unhealthy, in a particular way that disqualifies him for the immense responsibilities of the Presidency, and makes him a real danger to the United States and to the world.

It is a fact that mental illness sometimes – not always, not even frequently – but sometimes compels people to act in ways that are harmful to society. I believe that this may be the case with Trump.

None of us can diagnose him from our armchairs, of course – but if I'm right, and Trump really does have a pathology, where does leave us? If we're not allowed to say "hey, I think this guy might be mentally unfit", where does that leave us when a mentally unfit person does, against all odds, come within spitting distance of the most powerful office on Earth? (Granted, merely voicing the suspicion isn't going to fix the issue – but it certainly seems preferably to ignoring the elephant in the room.)

His language is frequently incoherent, he has delusions of grandeur, he subscribes to paranoid conspiracy theories, he has an obsessive need for admiration, he's utterly lacking in empathy, and he lies blithely and constantly and apparently without conscience. I'm far from the first to suspect that he may have narcissistic personality disorder, or something in that neighborhood.

I can't prove it, of course – but that doesn't mean that the concern is without validity or pertinence. There's gotta be some threshold for erratic behavior, past which we are allowed to say "okay, this seems to go past mere quirkiness; something clinical may be going on here".
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:37 PM on August 1, 2016 [37 favorites]

I think we have turned Ivanka into Cordelia to Trump's King Lear.

She seems to love her father despite him being a cretinous handsy troll. She also seems to have some element of humility and humanity in her (which is absent in her brothers) so we don't necessarily want her to get hurt when inevitably Trump goes completely off the rails.

So we are imagining that despite professing her love for her father she's actually been harboring a secret grudge based upon her father's shitty treatment of her mother (who seems like a moderately decent person) and so we kind of want her to reveal herself like Brutus before plunging the dagger repeatedly into his body.

Personally I blame watching too many shakespeare adaptations and pastiches.
posted by vuron at 7:38 PM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

Mitten's 47% comment is so tame in comparison to any of the things Trump has done in the last week, it's hard to believe that used to be considered a giant fuckup.

Romney didn't have the advantage (!) to the Republican base of being a hateful racist bigot. Clearly that's the secret sauce that is making all this possible.
posted by Justinian at 7:38 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

There's gotta be some threshold for erratic behavior, past which we are allowed to say "okay, this seems to go past mere quirkiness; something clinical may be going on here".

There's also a significant difference between personality disorders and mood disorders, though they all get lumped together under "mental illness".
posted by Justinian at 7:40 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

I understand the discomfort many people feel about stigmatizing mental illness in general, but I also don't like the idea that we shouldn't be discussing our concerns about the mental health of one of the two people who might soon be in charge of a military power so enormous that *we could get rid of the United States Air Force and still have the largest air force in the world*. I'd like to give it a chance before assuming we can't manage that discussion.
posted by uosuaq at 7:42 PM on August 1, 2016 [19 favorites]

I almost felt bad for Mike Pence for a minute, as he is a father with a child on active duty in the Marine Corps, as the running mate of the "You're not sacrificing! I'm sacrificing!' candidate. Then I remembered the various terrible policies he's enacted in Indiana that have actively harmed people and their children, and how he's an adult with agency who could make sacrifices and walk the fuck away, and I don't feel bad for not feeling bad for him.

posted by rtha at 7:41 PM on August 1 [1 favorite −] Favorite added! [!]

It's even easier if you watch him lie through his teeth when asked about Trump's attacks on the Khan family. "Donald Trump cares more about military families than any politician in my lifetime."

Fuck. That. Guy.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:43 PM on August 1, 2016 [24 favorites]

Joseph O'Neill in the New Yorker: Memories of Trump's Wedding

Indeed, there reigned in the church a slight atmosphere of indignity, produced, it seemed to me, by the fact that lots of personalities had to squeeze themselves into rock-hard egalitarian pews, as if they were just a bunch of Joe Blows. This atmosphere was only intensified by the unmentionable incongruity of, on the one hand, the wedding’s V.I.P. and Ultra-High Net Worth ethos and, on the other hand, the ethos of the church, which recognized only one Very Important Being, of Incommensurable Net Worth.

The newlyweds looked very pleased and happy as they walked back from the altar; far was it for me, their friend, to poke a nose into what was going on in their hearts and in their brand-new, instantly opaque marriage. Melania looked lovely, and the fifty-eight-year-old Donald—as a friend of the family, I was bound to call him and his wife by their Christian names, even if Donald reportedly liked being called “Mr. Trump”—looked uncharacteristically bashful; bashful, that is, by comparison with his character on “The Apprentice.” My impression was that he was in awe of some of the people who clapped as he made his way down the aisle, specifically those who exceeded him in the matter of net fame. But there was no reason for awe. Donald’s high status in the tabloids and on TV was clearly respected by everyone. (His career as an educator was not yet visible: Trump University opened its doors later that year.) As for those very few who didn’t watch TV or read the tabloids, or respect these media, surely even these miseries bore the groom the respectful good will one naturally bears any person who has just committed himself, for the third time, to the noble and demanding sacrament of marriage. About his latest union, Donald had predicted, in People, “I think it will be very successful.”

posted by crazy with stars at 7:43 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

When he is not reading from a prepared script, Donald Trump cannot speak a grammatically coherent sentence. This should be reason for concern.
posted by yesster at 7:45 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

The difference between the shirts on HRC's online store and Trump's store says everything about this campaign

Yes, the people wearing the Clinton apparel are willing to show their faces.
posted by obscure simpsons reference at 7:47 PM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

WHOA. talking head on MSNBC floating the idea of replacing Trump on the ticket. Stuart/Stewart something. Now I really REALLY want to know who he is.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:47 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

To be clear, I don't think anyone has been too harsh on the mental illness tip, and I think that Trump is a far more valid candidate for that kind of examination than the vast majority of people who receive it. Mental Illness is such a broad categorization though, and it isn't treated as a massive spectrum like it is. Mainstream liberal politicians can talk about banning gun ownership for the "Mentally Ill" without triggering any discussion of what "Mentally Ill" means.

I'm mentally ill, and in part because of that fact I've spent a lot of time around other people on a massive spectrum of 'mental illness'. Everyone of them is basically unique, and I cannot generalize anything about them as a whole besides 'pain'. I'm mostly reacting against the phrase "Mentally Ill". If you have a specific cause or reason to believe he has some specific disorder, then I can see it being valid I guess. Just please don't speculate about "Maybe he's just mentally ill." There's a lot of ways to be mentally ill, and being mentally ill would not be the worst strike against him anyway.
posted by neonrev at 7:47 PM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

Trump's complete lack of empathy is the most striking thing to me. I've never seen anything like it.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:49 PM on August 1, 2016 [28 favorites]

I understand not wanting to delve too far into the "mental illness" thing, especially for a lot of the reasons neonrev has brought up.

However, I really can't understand his campaign outside the structure of narcissistic personality disorder.
posted by zutalors! at 7:53 PM on August 1, 2016 [26 favorites]

Ok, the guy floating the idea that Trump could be replaced on the top of the ticket is a former Romney strategist, Stuart Stevens.

DON'T EVEN FUCKING TRY IT. YOU OWN THIS, GOP.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:55 PM on August 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

I'm mentally ill. In many different ways. Totally not joking about that.

I understand and agree with the desire to not stigmatize mental illness.

But there has to be some way we can talk about how totally unhinged Donald Trump is?
posted by yesster at 7:56 PM on August 1, 2016 [21 favorites]

Trump on the New York Times:

“You look at The New York Times, I mean, the fail — I call it ‘The Failing New York Times’ because it won’t be in business for another, probably more than a few years unless somebody goes in and buys it and wants to lose a lot of money.... But The New York Times is so unfair. I mean they write three, four articles about me a day. No matter how good I do on something, they’ll never write good.

They don’t write good. They have people over there, like Maggie Haberman and others, they don’t — they don’t write good.... They don’t know how to write good."

I feel like we've reached the point where the Daily Show should stop making jokes and just start reading Trump's words verbatim.
posted by mmoncur at 7:56 PM on August 1, 2016 [45 favorites]

It's not that he lacks empathy. He doesn't even get that he is supposed to fake empathy.
posted by readery at 7:57 PM on August 1, 2016 [75 favorites]

Yeah we got to split that hair: Trump is cray, no disrespect to anyone dealing with actual mental illness.
posted by vrakatar at 7:58 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump's complete lack of empathy is the most striking thing to me. I've never seen anything like it.

It's that, combined with his absurd level of arrogance and complete lack of humility. He seems to belong to the school of thought that he should never apologize for anything he does or says, just keep pointing fingers at other people. And I don't know how he can be comfortable with the amount of times he claims that something he'll do - something he's never even attempted to do before and I'm sure has very little idea on how to accomplish it in the real world - will be "the best" simply because he says it will.

I bet if he ever does get around to apologizing for anything he's said or done, I mean genuinely apologizing, he'll make a really big deal about the fact that he was big enough to apologize.
posted by wondermouse at 7:59 PM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

Trump speaks good. His words are the goodest.
posted by zakur at 8:00 PM on August 1, 2016 [11 favorites]

when asked about Trump's attacks on the Khan family (Mike Pence said) "Donald Trump cares more about military families than any politician in my lifetime."

Including himself, and he HAS a 'military family'. He's better at being the Loyal YesMan than even Chris Christie.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:06 PM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

To be clear, I don't think anyone has been too harsh on the mental illness tip, and I think that Trump is a far more valid candidate for that kind of examination than the vast majority of people who receive it.

And to be clear, the off-duty conversations I've heard tend to be from mental health professionals who work with the severely mentally ill in different varieties of secure environment, with alarm buttons and armed guards on standby.

There is a hypothetical in which Trump says "the election is rigged, Crooked Hillary's campaign needs to be shut down" and that's taken as a cue by a few highly persuadable supporters. Local campaign offices, especially for presidential campaigns, tend to be high-visibility places with open doors. I don't want volunteers' lives endangered because of an unstable explosive payload at the top of the GOP ticket.
posted by holgate at 8:06 PM on August 1, 2016 [13 favorites]

holgate: If a family member is a threat to themselves or others, you can get a court order and have law enforcement come and get them checked out (and make sure their guns are locked away).

It depends on the state, but the US standard for involuntary holds is three days, and in the case of imminent danger to self, imminent danger to others, and gravely disabled (cannot meet basic needs of food, shelter, and clothing). It's usually not done through a court order, but rather through contacting your local crisis program - even for people with degrees like myself (I've orchestrated a number of involuntary holds, but am not licensed to issue one, thank the gods).

Danger to others is by far the hardest to prove, and Trump fomenting violence will not qualify it; usually it requires a single person making threats against another identified person, not the sort of rhetoric Trump uses. It doesn't even cover the sort of direct threats made against people online (e.g. here is so and so's address, she should be killed). Danger to Others usually shows up either in the context of someone who already has a diagnosis speaking to family/mental health professional, or in the context of someone being aggressive in person toward another person where the police lean toward hold instead of jail (rare). I sincerely doubt Trump will end up in this circumstance, no matter how violent and hateful his rhetoric becomes.

there's a non-zero chance of Trump doing something dangerous -- or worse, giving the green light to his most ardent supporters to do so. He's already talking about rigged elections.

None of this is anywhere close to meeting criteria for 'danger to others' under the current system. The laws around Involuntary Holds are fairly strict for a lot of reasons which are a derail in this thread; the ethics are even murkier.

escape from the potato planet: I do it because I actually think he may be mentally unhealthy, in a particular way that disqualifies him for the immense responsibilities of the Presidency, and makes him a real danger to the United States and to the world.

Having characteristics of Narcissism doesn't actually remove peoples' right to run for President. Neither does being prejudiced, cruel, hateful, or encouraging any of those things in other people.

I really recommend you step back from trying to turn the mental health field into a political weapon. I say this as someone who works within that field - you don't help your cause politically, you negatively affect progressive movements around ableism, you hurt people with mental illnesses who aren't hateful and cruel, and you make my job a lot harder.

Justinian: There's also a significant difference between personality disorders and mood disorders, though they all get lumped together under "mental illness".

People have also started floating symptoms of delusional disorders. It's this sort of free-floating interpretation of someone's behavior that "don't diagnose from a distance" was made to cover.

neonrev: Mainstream liberal politicians can talk about banning gun ownership for the "Mentally Ill" without triggering any discussion of what "Mentally Ill" means.

Actually, that can be a major issue for various anti-ableism lobbies for a variety of reasons, but it's really a derail for this thread. My opinion is It's A Lot More Complicated Than That.

yesster: But there has to be some way we can talk about how totally unhinged Donald Trump is?

"He's unhinged" and "this is blatantly wrong" and "he lies all the time" are great ways. "He fits criteria for an involuntary hold and I hope his family will call one on him" not so much. The notes on Narcissism are.... widely shared, but nothing about Narcissistic Personality Disorder bars someone from seeking office or indeed removes any of their rights.
posted by Deoridhe at 8:07 PM on August 1, 2016 [30 favorites]

There are days I hope that Trump will drop out so we don't have to risk him being president and then there's days I hope he doesn't so that the Republicans don't have a chance to place a less evil person on the ballot.
posted by Joey Michaels at 8:11 PM on August 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

He's a trying as fuck case for me too. I'm really sensitive to this, I'll admit, and I try extra hard to avoid contributing to this, but yeah. The dude seems like there is something wrong. I'm not a doctor though, and I've never actually met the man, and I honestly don't feel like his twitter or political persona are necessarily accurate representations of the man himself. Remember, what looks unhinged and crazy to us looks like a good leader to a terrifying number of people. He's a salesman, and he's an actor. He's selling stuff pretty well, maybe he's also just acting. But maybe it's real. None of us actually know.

All I ask is that we please avoid broad mentally ill generalizations. Depression, schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, anxiety disorders, and everything else are all extremely different and are all also described as 'Mental Illness". I promise you that there are a number of people that are going to read this that have one or more of those conditions. I can't speak for them, but on behalf of myself at least, please don't lump us in with him so broadly. I can't stand being treated as a security risk, especially not here.
(And the gun thing is just an example, a personal concern.)
posted by neonrev at 8:14 PM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

Having characteristics of Narcissism doesn't actually remove peoples' right to run for President. Neither does being prejudiced, cruel, hateful, or encouraging any of those things in other people.

No, but I don't think "disqualifies him" was meant as, like, a legal statement that he ought to have no right to run for president.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:15 PM on August 1, 2016 [17 favorites]

Oregon's vote-by-mail works because Oregon has a civic culture that values and defends the right to participate in civic life. In a way, that's grimly accidental: by excluding African-Americans early in its history, Oregon never had a period of systematically disenfranchising them because African-Americans have never had the raw numbers as a voting bloc to affect the outcome of a statewide election.

We're also seeing shitty retrograde voting shit go on here in WA Republicanland. I'm talking to a lot of Republican women who hate Trump whose husbands who love him are starting to (or in the primary, had) them "do their voting together!" People are seriously considering coming up with schemes to avoid getting caught not voting for him, because the mail in ballot allows spouses way too much access to your vote, unlike the mercifully secret voting booth.

I really, really hope that this "only vote by mail" thing does not catch on elsewhere. More access to voting, GOOD. Less secret ballot, BAD.
posted by corb at 8:18 PM on August 1, 2016 [86 favorites]

"Donald Trump cares more about military families than any politician in my lifetime."

It's even funnier because, liar though he is, Trump is utterly unable to fake caring about anything and he blatantly does not give two shits about military families.
posted by Artw at 8:18 PM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

Although I've heard a few clips, and read constantly, it wasn't until today that I'd actually ever seen Trump speak.
Yes, I am that lucky.

I just don't know how to react. I mean, I was exhausted from 8 years of revulsion with BushCo until like at least 2010. But this... this is too parodical to be believed. Now that we (even here) have pro wrestlers (!) that we openly admire and champion for making some pretty great things, I think it may be time to acknowledge the kayfabe and just be done with it. Call em on it. This can't be real.

It's time to get going on the most massive get out the vote work ever attempted. Time to take advantage of court rulings that finally call bullshit when bullshit needed to be called. Time to prove it.
posted by rp at 8:18 PM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

Now that we (even here) have pro wrestlers (!) that we openly admire and champion for making some pretty great things, I think it may be time to acknowledge the kayfabe and just be done with it.

Just putting it out there but I would 100% vote for John Cena for president.
posted by Talez at 8:22 PM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

corb, I had never thought of that aspect of voting by mail. That could be a really awful situation for a lot of people.
posted by defenestration at 8:24 PM on August 1, 2016 [19 favorites]

showbiz_liz: I responded to these two posts in particular - quoting the relevant bits

escape from the potato planet: "I do it because I actually think he may be mentally unhealthy, in a particular way that disqualifies him for the immense responsibilities of the Presidency"

holgate: "There's no political equivalent to family (so far) in a position to make the call [for an involuntary hold]. Will there be? Would his actual family do so?"

Two people have explicitly said he should either be disqualified or be put on an involuntary hold (which would remove his liberty for three days). Others have discussed various symptoms and diagnoses in the context of them rendering him unfit to run or undermining his campaign.

I'd rather people focus on what actually makes him unfit - his plans and goals are practically and ethically bankrupt. He is also uneducated, inexperienced, cruel, selfish, a poor manager, unrealistic, unable to take responsibility for his own words and actions, and a bully.
posted by Deoridhe at 8:25 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

I really, really hope that this "only vote by mail" thing does not catch on elsewhere. More access to voting, GOOD. Less secret ballot, BAD.

Not sure about Washington, but in Oregon you can go into the election office (alone) and request a new ballot that will, I believe, invalidate any "outstanding" ballots that are associated with you.
posted by dersins at 8:29 PM on August 1, 2016 [21 favorites]

The notes on Narcissism are.... widely shared, but nothing about Narcissistic Personality Disorder bars someone from seeking office or indeed removes any of their rights.

With respect, a discussion about whether a candidate with narcissistic traits is fit for office bc of those traits does nothing to their rights, and is a necessary and valid discussion .
posted by schadenfrau at 8:30 PM on August 1, 2016 [11 favorites]

I read the posts - I'm saying I don't think "I actually think he may be mentally unhealthy, in a particular way that disqualifies him for the immense responsibilities of the Presidency" was meant as "I think he should be legally prevented from seeking the Presidency." I think you are reading that into it based on the other post.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:30 PM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

Now Trump is eating KFC with a knife and fork?!?

IS THERE NO LIMIT TO HIS DEPRAVITY?
posted by Talez at 8:31 PM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

Seriously, what's he supposed to lick?
posted by LionIndex at 8:32 PM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'd rather people focus on what actually makes him unfit

Absolutely, but the behaviors that have given rise to speculation about his mental health are behaviors that make him unfit to lead the country. After a certain level of extreme behavior, trying to separate the behavior from the [theoretical] underlying condition is going to be near impossible.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 8:33 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Seriously, what's he supposed to lick?

Exactly! It's "finger lickin' good" not "suck your fork good".
posted by Talez at 8:34 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump is repulsive.
posted by Room 641-A at 8:34 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

I mean, I think Trump should be disqualified from holding any public office, let alone the presidency.

This has less to do with any hypothetical mental illness, however, than it does with the fact that he is about as genuinely bad a human being as I can remember in the sphere of American politics in my lifetime.

Like, I'd take Nixon over Trump ten times out of nine.
posted by dersins at 8:35 PM on August 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

it wasn't until today that I'd actually ever seen Trump speak.

This is our key. Trump is 'out there' by any stretch, but most people hear only about the one or two kinda weird things he's said that day and it gets thrown in with the rest of the daily news. Loud guy did this. Politician said that. Blah blah blah what's for dinner?

But if you actually sit down and watch Trump speak for 30-40 minutes all those little weird things he says add up. Most people know he's "kinda kooky" and "says whatever is on his mind". Only the few of those dedicated masochistic souls have listened to the rest of those speeches. The soundbite will be the news that night, but the extra 30ish minutes of Trump rambles are his actual campaign day to day. That's what we need to focus on. Not the Politico headline that he held a "controversial rally" that gets turned into a "Trump's at 'em again!" headline for Wolf Blitzer to chuckle over as everyone wonders why he's still employed and why is the plane delayed again.
posted by downtohisturtles at 8:35 PM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

He probably just licks a servant's fingers.
posted by Artw at 8:36 PM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

To clarify: like, my general laziness, poor response to stress, and lack of interest in understanding the nuances of economic policy disqualify ME for the immense responsibilities of the Presidency, but that doesn't mean I think I shouldn't have the right to run. Just means no one sensible should vote for me.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:36 PM on August 1, 2016 [17 favorites]

None of this is anywhere close to meeting criteria for 'danger to others' under the current system.

I'm not arguing with that, and I really don't want to get into an argument with someone in the field, because I have a good second-remove sense of what it's like. I am suggesting that the unique platform of a presidential campaign -- particularly one that's media catnip -- extends agency in ways that don't normally apply to individual cases. And I was offering more of an analogy than a direct comparison, which is why I used the word "equivalent": if someone running a political campaign decides there's nothing to lose from inciting violence from supporters, what mechanisms are in place to put a stop to it? There aren't really any.

Put simply: I fear that people are going to get hurt and there will be a lot of second-guessing about what might have been done to stop it.
posted by holgate at 8:37 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

As someone on Twitter pointed out, that KFC pic shows that he's still working his way through Saturday's WSJ.
posted by acidic at 8:37 PM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

Talez, what if you could have John Cena on the ticket....channeling his inner Hillary Clinton??
posted by Sublimity at 8:38 PM on August 1, 2016

He probably just licks a servant's fingers.

Some pretty young lady who can find another career or find another company if she's too disgusted.
posted by Talez at 8:38 PM on August 1, 2016 [13 favorites]

Seriously, what's he supposed to lick?

Exactly! It's "finger lickin' good" not "suck your fork good".

Are there no others here who panic mildly at the very thought of sticky, greasy fingers?
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:39 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Now Trump is eating KFC with a knife and fork?!?

The advantages of commuting back to NYC by private plane instead of on a bus.
posted by holgate at 8:39 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Talez, what if you could have John Cena on the ticket....channeling his inner Hillary Clinton??

I saw that. It's pretty damn cool.
posted by Talez at 8:39 PM on August 1, 2016

Two people have explicitly said he should either be disqualified or be put on an involuntary hold

Since you quoted me immediately prior to saying this, I assume you think I'm one of those two people.

I was not making any sort of formal recommendation. I'm not even aware of any mechanism (either legal, or part of the Republican Party's own rules) which would allow such a thing. We are in terra incognita here – no one expected this, so no one planned for it.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 8:40 PM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

@acidic
As someone on Twitter pointed out, that KFC pic shows that he's still working his way through Saturday's WSJ.

And his briefing notes on Syrian refugees if I read them correctly.
posted by vac2003 at 8:40 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

That wretched bastard eats pizza with a fork, too.
Skip to 3:30 for the appalling video evidence.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 8:41 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Speculative medical explanations for his behavior are not important. What is important is his behavior is not acceptable.
posted by humanfont at 8:43 PM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

He probably just licks a servant's fingers.

I cringed so hard at this.
posted by dis_integration at 8:45 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Hey everyone, let's take a moment to just contemplate and appreciate this, it'll make you feel better, I promise:

Remember that tweet about how Hillary, Obama, Bernie, and Kaine's college photos made them look like they'd make a pretty great indie band? Some blessed soul on tumblr made that album cover: The Dems.
posted by yasaman at 8:46 PM on August 1, 2016 [40 favorites]

After a certain level of extreme behavior, trying to separate the behavior from the [theoretical] underlying condition is going to be near impossible.

That's not because people with a certain condition should be singled out as universally unable to hold office though, that's because mental illness still has a stigma attached to it that is more acceptable to voice. Regardless of what he (might) have, you're going to be able to find people who manage it and are functional members of society that aren't utter monsters.

Separating the behavior of a person from other attributes they hold is kinda like a thing that is included in basic humanity, even if you suspect that that attribute might cause that behavior (and I can show you dozens of perfectly sane people who would and do say worse shit than Trump.)

He's bad enough if he were sane, and if he's not totally perfectly mentally healthy that makes no difference. His platform makes him a terrible choice, and after that it doesn't really matter why.
Don't vote for him because he's a bad choice on the face of it, not because he might be 'crazy'. It really doesn't matter, and it ends up hurting people.
posted by neonrev at 8:46 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

Replacing Trump would be a mixed blessing. It'd get Trump off the ticket, but it'd mean for the short term a bump for whomever he's replaced with since that person would likely be more likable than Hillary.

I don't see the GOP replacing Trump, though. He has to quit for that to happen, and they have so little control over him. One reason they continue to endorse him -- they have his back so he doesn't go completely off the reservation.
posted by dw at 8:47 PM on August 1, 2016

That wretched bastard eats pizza with a fork, too.

Pretty sure that bars him from ever claiming to be a New Yorker again.
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:49 PM on August 1, 2016

I admit it: I eat KFC with a fork. I don't like to get my hands greasy.

Now that it means having something in common with Trump, though, I guess I'll grit my teeth and eat it by hand next time.

(Don't tell me I haven't made sacrifices!)
posted by mmoncur at 8:51 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

downtohisturtles, Shit you not, I hadn't watched, only read about this absurdity. But today I watched John Oliver, and the latest (as if you thought there could be more that one!) attack on fire marshalls. That's when I became convinced. As horrific as the Bush administation was... at least they were real.
Maybe, if I'm trying to be optimisitic, maybe this is a real affort by people in this country to root out racism and hatred and othering. Maybe this is just the best example of the worst we can imagine, ramped up to 11, just to make fucking sure that we all just stop seeing other people as the problem. Maybe this is what someone like Elon Musk has been waiting and paying a lot of people to make possible, so that people can start working on whatever bigger ideas we might just, I dunno, have had for years and we're just sitting on becuase we're all too busy squabbling to actually make them real.

Egalitarian, non-fossil-fuelled utopian and agrarian visions aside, I'd settle for people not hating each other. That'd be an ok start.
posted by rp at 8:52 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

I admit it: I eat KFC with a fork. I don't like to get my hands greasy.

Whatever floats your boat, Inspector 34.
posted by Talez at 8:54 PM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

He's bad enough if he were sane, and if he's not totally perfectly mentally healthy that makes no difference. His platform makes him a terrible choice, and after that it doesn't really matter why.

I can't really agree with this. The problem with Trump isn't just his terrible views - it's the fact that his behavior has proven to be erratic and unpredictable. Is it ok to say "his behavior is erratic and unpredictable" as long as I don't say "I think he is a narcissist, which might explain why his behavior is erratic and unpredictable"? Even if that theory might actually help to explain and predict his actions?

That last part is why I'm not totally comfortable ignoring Trump's mental state. If understanding it can provide a framework for predicting what he will do and say, it seems irresponsible to ignore that. I mean the man is running for President.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:54 PM on August 1, 2016 [16 favorites]

Maybe it's final stage affluenza.
posted by Artw at 8:56 PM on August 1, 2016 [31 favorites]

"Rigged": Trump is Trying to Mainstream Alex Jones-ism
posted by tonycpsu at 8:57 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

I can't really agree with this. The problem with Trump isn't just his terrible views - it's the fact that his behavior has proven to be erratic and unpredictable. Is it ok to say "his behavior is erratic and unpredictable" as long as I don't say "I think he is a narcissist, which might explain why his behavior is erratic and unpredictable"? Even if that theory might actually help to explain and predict his actions?

But we literally do not know what his mental state is. It took years and a lot of money focused directly at me to determine my problems, and I'm not so sure they're figured out. You certainly think you might know about his mental health, but you absolutely do not. Unless there is some major break where a doctor violates ethics massively (and this is kinda the only time I'd forgive that) we LITERALLY DO NOT KNOW what his mental state is. He is a charlatan, he is a showman. He's been very effective at it. It's the only thing he is good at. A lot of people like him. It's totally possible that his personality is just an act. It's possible he's sniffed his own farts for so long he doesn't know what real is. It's totally possible he is just like that normally.

Don't attribute to mental illness what can be adequately explained by jackassery (without evidence.)
posted by neonrev at 9:01 PM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

It's a good thing Trump & Company just aren't competent enough to rig the election, because that is a World Class case of "projection".
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:04 PM on August 1, 2016

Basically everything bad that happens has someone blame it on mental illness, it happens on both sides of the isle, and it is almost never the whole of the story. This is a problem for the vast majority of people with mental illness who have enough problems dealing with the existing stigma and their own treatment.
posted by neonrev at 9:04 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'd take Nixon over Trump ten times out of nine.

Nixon? I'd take Dick Fucking Cheney.
posted by tclark at 9:04 PM on August 1, 2016 [13 favorites]

WA State also has MyVote, where a voter could download and print out a replacement ballot.

It'll invalidate the original ballot.

It then can be printed out and mailed through the US Mail. Some counties also allow for scanning in and emailing, as well as faxing in your ballot. So, there is a way for someone to get a new secret ballot, if they're in a situation where their original ballot isn't secret, such as the scenarios that corb described above.
posted by spinifex23 at 9:06 PM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

Yeah, he's not going to eat that KFC anyways. Single piece of chicken on a clean plate, sides unopened, a huge bucket all to himself... it's just your basic "I'm one of you!" photo op and the nice shiny cutlery would undercut that except IOKIYAR.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:07 PM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

One deleted; the objection's been raised and explained about how speculating on the mental illness thing strikes some folks as a problem; maybe let's leave it there for the time being?
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 9:09 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

I think the media has done a ton of damage already though

If the Trump/Pence candidacy results in the Dems next year having full control of the Federal government -- Presidency, House & Senate majorities, and 5+ liberal justices on the SCOTUS, it'll have been one helluva judo throw.

What I see Trump doing is exposing the garbage in our electorate's minds.

http://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dish/archive/2009/09/the-latest-insanity-ctd/196120/

These ugly people from the 1950s are still with us, and with Trump now.

I'm OK with putting this nation to this test. There's no getting around it, really.

Short of pulling stakes and GTFO to a foreign land.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 9:14 PM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

That picture of young Kaine looks uncannily like Norm McDonald.
posted by MysticMCJ at 9:23 PM on August 1, 2016

Donald Trump can't string two coherent sentences together without (or sometimes even with, apparently) a teleprompter; can't resist responding inappropriately even when restraint would serve him so much better; can't seem to even fake empathy when it would serve him well if he perceives that doing so would make him "look weak;" talks a lot of definitive talk about things he doesn't know anything about; tells really obvious lies and, when called out, lies about having lied.

I don't care what diagnosis this amounts to or doesn't. It certainly adds up to someone I consider completely unqualified to be president.
posted by rtha at 9:38 PM on August 1, 2016 [12 favorites]

CNN currently desperately trying to wring something out of the dumb Clinton email thing out of some obligation to do "fair and balanced" or whatever, I guess.
posted by Artw at 9:48 PM on August 1, 2016

It certainly adds up to someone I consider completely unqualified to be president.
For me, it adds up to someone I consider completely unqualified to sell bottled water. America is truly a Land of Opportunity... for predators.
posted by oneswellfoop at 9:50 PM on August 1, 2016

Conservatives Criticize Michelle Obama for Bare Arms, Stay Silent on Melania Trump’s Nude Poses
posted by kirkaracha at 9:50 PM on August 1, 2016 [6 favorites]

I DO NOT CARE ABOUT EITHER MICHELE OBAMA'S BARE ARMS OR MELANIA TRUMP'S NUDE POSES

I ALSO DO NOT CARE ABOUT CONSERVATIVE HYPOCRISY VIS A VIS MICHELE OBAMA'S BARE ARMS AND MELANIA TRUMP'S NUDE POSES

LET US NEVER SPEAK OF THIS AGAIN
posted by dersins at 9:58 PM on August 1, 2016 [54 favorites]

Remember that tweet about how Hillary, Obama, Bernie, and Kaine's college photos made them look like they'd make a pretty great indie band? Some blessed soul on tumblr made that album cover: The Dems.

What happened to politics being showbiz for ugly people? Clearly they didn't get the memo.
posted by Justinian at 10:00 PM on August 1, 2016

I guess, if nothing else, this election has demonstrated that the primary motivation for a sizable chunk of the electorate is, "Fuck it, and fuck you too."
posted by Existential Dread at 10:03 PM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

We're going to find out some Republican official once long ago insulted Trump, so he decided to destroy the party. That's how he gets his head kicked in at the general election, but still... wins!

I'm wondering, if his campaign truly implodes before November, does that hurt Ds or Rs more in the downticket GOTV? (just by numbers, I get that lower turnout helps Rs more.)
posted by ctmf at 10:04 PM on August 1, 2016

Conservatives Criticize Michelle Obama for Bare Arms, Stay Silent on Melania Trump’s Nude Poses

<TIM KAINE DAD JOKE>
But I thought the Republicans BELIEVED in the right to bare arms!
<\TIM KAINE DAD JOKE>
posted by mmoncur at 10:08 PM on August 1, 2016 [70 favorites]

I'm wondering, if his campaign truly implodes before November, does that hurt Ds or Rs more in the downticket GOTV?

Any answer to this is, I suspect, a wild-ass guess at best. Shit is unprecedented enough already this cycle without adding in a historic meltdown.
posted by dersins at 10:09 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

But I thought the Republicans BELIEVED in the right to bare arms!

ಠ_ಠ
posted by um at 10:16 PM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

Earlier today, on his anti-CNN twitter rampage, Donald Trump said:

Will CNN send its cameras to the border to show the massive unreported crisis now unfolding -- or are they worried it will hurt Hillary?

If I were CNN, I'd be tempted to troll him and send a camera crew to the US/Mexico border. "Hi Wolf, we're out in the desert patrolling the border and there's still pretty much nothing going on. Here's a shot of a cool saguaro cactus! We'll check in with you again next hour."
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 10:18 PM on August 1, 2016 [36 favorites]

I know we all hope hope Trump will implode like we've never seen before in human history but I think it's still more likely that Clinton wins by 1 than by 10.
posted by Justinian at 10:19 PM on August 1, 2016 [4 favorites]

I dunno I might feel like the "how much is Clinton going to win by" conversation is kinda sorta possibly in a way doing some sort of oh i don't know perhaps tempting fate type thing or something maybe so yeah.
posted by dersins at 10:23 PM on August 1, 2016 [15 favorites]

Any answer to this is, I suspect, a wild-ass guess at best.

Do you really think, though, that the party leadership is going to be able to hold together a message of "this guy our party nominated is so horrible that we finally had to kick him out, but don't worry we are totally competent and you should definitely vote for us in November"?

That would be a tall order even for a relatively unified party. And the GOP may be many things at the moment, but "unified" definitely isn't a great descriptor there.

I just can't see the party being able to recover from a Trump campaign implosion, let alone effectively pivoting from lukewarm mumblymouthed non-repudiations to "What, who, us?!?!?" in four to eight weeks.

Paul and Mitch and Reince and, I dunno, the Bushes and John McCain and Mitt and the despicable "center"-right columnists and pundits who cheer on and enable them -- they don't know how to proceed. They'll want to dodge, obfuscate and keep their powder dry as much as possible, both for the sake of their careers/legacies and (honestly) because they're horrified. (Their horror doesn't surpass their gutlessness, though.)

Maybe a thing will happen that is beyond the pale even for them. Maybe the Khans were yet that moment. But I still don't think they can dance away fast enough.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:30 PM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

I dunno I might feel like the "how much is Clinton going to win by" conversation is kinda sorta possibly in a way doing some sort of oh i don't know perhaps tempting fate type thing or something maybe so yeah.

I refer you to mmoncur's command from the other day.
posted by zachlipton at 10:30 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

I really really REALLY want to donate to Hillary, but I want my money to be used effectively. Is there some sort of system where people in deep blue states can pay for Uber credits to give voters in swing states free rides to polls? I would very happily throw down money to ferry UF students to the polls in Gainesville. Does this exist? (Apologies if this ought to be in AskMeFi; it seems like a good place to get the right eyeballs on the question.)

Sorry, this was like 500 comments ago because no mere mortal can keep up with these threads! What ROU_Xenophobe said is right on - just donate to the campaign. That campaign is being run with ruthless efficiency. The people running the campaign know the best way to spend your dollars.

Also, I say this almost every election cycle here, I'm a broken record, but: rides to the polls are almost never the most pressing thing. 1. Most blue precincts (where HFA will be focusing turnout efforts) are in urban or suburban areas where polling places are pretty close together. Most swing precincts are in suburban areas with the same situation. 2. In every campaign I've worked on, we've had an excess of volunteers ready to drive people to the polls, because it's a nice, feel-good way to volunteer. For instance, I would be willing to bet the campaign will work with the UF Dems to make sure students can get to the polls.

So for people motivated to volunteer: go knock on doors! Or phonebank. And for people who want to donate: just donate to the campaign. Or if you'd rather not do that, donate to an organization that is doing heavy-duty voter mobilization work around an issue you care about like Sierra Club (my former employer), NARAL, Everytown (gun control), etc.
posted by lunasol at 10:32 PM on August 1, 2016 [9 favorites]

I admit it: I eat KFC with a fork. I don't like to get my hands greasy.

For the love of God, Montresor, use a spork at least!
posted by Apocryphon at 10:36 PM on August 1, 2016 [7 favorites]

The election is 98 days away which means there's plenty of time for another Wikileaks event, October surprise or other ratfuckery event. Count on nothing. GOTV.
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:51 PM on August 1, 2016 [27 favorites]

I'm inclined to agree that Donald Trump probably has a personality disorder, yes.

Given his polling numbers, I think maybe America has a personality disorder, too.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:51 PM on August 1, 2016 [11 favorites]

Surely this

I get that this is a joke at this point, but I think we're at the point where this happens. Not all at once, but individuals have their own 'this' moments. Fire Marshals, veterans, Gold Star families, Meredith..

i guess _if_ trump is some kind of master con/bullshit artist couldn't all of his proclamations at this point just be considered epic trolling as media strategy? "What Trump has done throughout his campaign — and I mean throughout — is called 'trolling the media'. Here is how it works. Trump makes a statement, no matter how ridiculous, and the media reaction is invariably even more ridiculous. (Note: Image is exaggerated but not by much.) The result is free publicity and usually a bump in the polls..."
posted by kliuless at 11:02 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

You will never get me to believe that there is more to Trump's actions, or to Trump himself, than meets the eye. There is always less. Soooo much less. Any appearance of a coherent strategy is something akin to pareidolia.
posted by um at 11:06 PM on August 1, 2016 [31 favorites]

So is Bernie the drummer or what
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:14 PM on August 1, 2016 [1 favorite]

Kaine is bass, Obama keys, Clinton sings, no guitar. I think it's pretty obvious.
posted by bongo_x at 11:17 PM on August 1, 2016

No guitar? In the sixties?
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:19 PM on August 1, 2016 [2 favorites]

They're talking to Biden.
posted by bongo_x at 11:24 PM on August 1, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm impressed that they're doing it without Bill on Sax.
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:24 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yeah, Bill's the hanger-on, going like, "Guys...hey guys...guys? You know what this song needs? Guys? Sax solo! Guys...guys?"
posted by infinitywaltz at 11:26 PM on August 1, 2016 [15 favorites]

on the reunion tour Bill constantly breaks into the solo from Baker Street
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 11:27 PM on August 1, 2016 [8 favorites]

EXCUSE YOU, KAINE IS ON THE HARMONICA
posted by yasaman at 11:30 PM on August 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

Kaine is bass, Obama keys, Clinton sings, no guitar. I think it's pretty obvious.

No way Clinton sings. Too much of a wonky introvert.

Kaine drums, Clinton bass, Obama keys, Sanders fronts.
posted by dersins at 11:30 PM on August 1, 2016 [3 favorites]

Guys, you've all heard Obama sing right? I mean, come on. He's the front man.
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:34 PM on August 1, 2016 [15 favorites]

They really should have kept that campaign logo.
posted by homunculus at 11:35 PM on August 1, 2016 [10 favorites]

I think this should be the new election thread.
posted by mazola at 11:36 PM on August 1, 2016

My god you guys. My own FATHER, who could have been a gold star dad if the cards went wrong, is like "I heard the elder Khan supports sharia law."

What the fuck timeline am I even living in.
posted by corb at 12:02 AM on August 2, 2016 [59 favorites]

Ugh, Corb, that's freaking horrible.
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 12:10 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

If it helps at all, Snopes has a great takedown of the Shoebats' asinine accusations about Khzir Khan.

The thing I find funniest about the Shoebats' "evidence" is that they've based just about everything on the first-page preview of Mr. Khan's law review article. They couldn't even be assed to pay the $29.95 to download the full PDF, or to darken the door of a law library and get the thing for free.

The whole thing is insultingly sloppy and utterly stupid.
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 12:31 AM on August 2, 2016 [12 favorites]

Donald Trump absolutely does not have donkey brains! He got his mother to get an official certificate and everything!
posted by lovecrafty at 12:39 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

The smartest people are from the German town of Schiffer. Donald Trump has Schiffer brains. The best, most beautiful Schiffer brains.

Since the fire marshal thing hasn't died down, I'll tell my fire marshal story. After 9/11 I was working for a company that was looking to undo some bad publicity, so we had carte blanche to donate coffee and pastries on the local level to first responders and community organizations. One of our regulars worked for the county's office of the fire marshal, so I reached out with an offer and was declined. They said since they were an enforcement agency, their rules wouldn't allow them to accept any kind of donations. I said, "Whaaaaat? The police station will send officers over at a moment's notice to pick up free coffee and pastries and give us a joyride in their cruisers if we ask." The fire marshal just frowned and said, "we like to hold ourselves to a higher ethical standard." So it's pretty SAD to see Trump throw safety professionals under the bus in a cheap ploy to gin up a political conspiracy.
posted by peeedro at 1:02 AM on August 2, 2016 [57 favorites]

OBAMA: Sings
KAINE: Keyboard
CLINTON: Keytar, songwriter, lines up rehearsal space, usually the one on the phone to the booker, knows somewhere they can crash after the show, takes care of flyering, finds someone to run the merch table.
SANDERS: Drums
BIDEN: Owns a van
posted by EatTheWeek at 2:46 AM on August 2, 2016 [77 favorites]

Exactly! It's "finger lickin' good" not "suck your fork good".

There's more to lick if he uses cutlery instead of his hands. He knows licking. He's the best licker.
posted by vbfg at 2:53 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

OBAMA: Sings
KAINE: Keyboard
CLINTON: Keytar, songwriter, lines up rehearsal space, usually the one on the phone to the booker, knows somewhere they can crash after the show, takes care of flyering, finds someone to run the merch table.
SANDERS: Drums
BIDEN: Owns a van

Band name: The Barrack Obama Armada featuring Bernie Sanders with Tim Kaine
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:59 AM on August 2, 2016 [17 favorites]

Not "banned from the press pool"; "banned from the event."

A Post reporter was banned from a Trump-Pence rally yesterday. That should frighten you.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:16 AM on August 2, 2016 [10 favorites]

Another Roger Stone ratfuck takes hold, Corb.
posted by Yowser at 4:38 AM on August 2, 2016

My god you guys. My own FATHER, who could have been a gold star dad if the cards went wrong, is like "I heard the elder Khan supports sharia law."

Ugh! My commiserations.

Trying to add a silver lining you could say something about him having shown which book he keeps on him and quoted from - and it's the US constitution. And that this is the level of mud that Trump will throw at a Gold Star father.
posted by Francis at 4:59 AM on August 2, 2016

Quoting this because damn, son:

I said, "Whaaaaat? The police station will send officers over at a moment's notice to pick up free coffee and pastries and give us a joyride in their cruisers if we ask." The fire marshal just frowned and said, "we like to hold ourselves to a higher ethical standard."
posted by entropicamericana at 5:07 AM on August 2, 2016 [19 favorites]

Man. We're only, like, three days into the general election, and Trump is embroiled in about six different brouhahas. The headlines of any given news site are a litany of Trump controversies, and the media seems to have finally given themselves license to say "that's actually pretty fucked up" when he says something fucked up. His poll numbers are dropping. I remain cautious, and nothing will keep me away from the polls in November, but...maybe this is finally it?

You know what really cements a phenomenon like this in the public consciousness? In a way that gives it a certain self-fulfilling momentum? A name. A dumb-but-catchy name. What about...Trumpocalypse? Nah, overdone. Trumplosion? Trumpastrophe? Trumparrhea?

Whatever; fuck this dude.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 5:20 AM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

NYTimes Editorial Board: Mr. Trump and Spineless Republicans
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 5:22 AM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

Trump praises Paul Ryan's primary challenger
Because of course he does....
posted by Floydd at 5:26 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

The headlines of any given news site are a litany of Trump controversies

I think we're going to have a referendum on "All publicity is good publicity." And I honestly don't know what the answer will be.
posted by mmoncur at 5:38 AM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

Well, guess we know which news outlet @realDonaldTrump will be hatetweeting at this morning
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:40 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Air Force Mother Confronts Mike Pence Over Donald Trump's 'Disrespect' — Gets Booed

"Time and time again Trump has disrespected our nation's armed forces and veterans — and his disrespect for Mr. Khan and his family is just an example of that," Catherine Byrne, the mother of Raymond Harmon, who is currently deployed in the Persian Gulf, said to Pence. "Will there ever be a point in time when you're able to look Trump in the eye and tell him 'Enough is enough?' You have a son in the military. How do you tolerate his disrespect?"

The crowd booed Byrne as she asked her question. Pence did attempt to quiet the jeers after she spoke, saying, "folks that's what freedom looks like and what freedom sounds like," to a smattering of applause.

Byrne's son, 27, has served since high school — having previously deployed to Iraq in 2009 and 2010. He re-enlisted and is now on his second deployment on a base in the United Arab Emirates.

"I felt disrespected," Byrne told NBC News after the event, regarding the crowd's overwhelming reaction to her. "And that was what my question was — disrespect toward the military. The crowd as a group booed me."

Sounds good for the Dems, right? Trump is definitely going to lose voters this way. Nope, Not so much:

When asked by NBC News how she would vote in November, however, the woman responded: "I'm still supporting Trump, but it's not good what he said."

WTF?
posted by zakur at 5:43 AM on August 2, 2016 [30 favorites]

I'd like to see some enterprising journalist start asking prominent Republicans if there's anything Trump could do that would cause them to rescind their endorsement of him. What, exactly, would they consider beyond the pale from the party's nominee?
posted by EarBucket at 5:45 AM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

NYTimes Editorial Board: Mr. Trump and Spineless Republicans

Trump praises Paul Ryan's primary challenger

oh you're here with my order? uhhhh, just put it anywhere i guess

posted by entropicamericana at 5:48 AM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

Mark Weiner: GOP Rep. Richard Hanna: I'll vote for Clinton; first House member to cross party line

U.S. Rep. Richard Hanna, a three-term Republican, said Tuesday he will vote for Hillary Clinton for president because Donald Trump is "unfit to serve our party and cannot lead this country."

Hanna becomes the first Republican member of Congress to publicly declare he will vote for Clinton in November.

Other GOP members of Congress have refused to endorse Trump, but until now none had promised to vote for his Democratic opponent.

Hanna announced his decision Tuesday morning in an op-ed and interview exclusive to Syracuse.com. The retiring congressman previously said he could never support Trump, but he had stopped short of backing Clinton.

Now Hanna's decision could give political cover in the coming weeks to other like-minded GOP members of Congress who have criticized Trump, but have not said whether they would support Clinton.

posted by zombieflanders at 5:49 AM on August 2, 2016 [63 favorites]

Zakur, not every Trump voter is going to be swayed by this, even if they don't like him that much. But I don't think that's that important. There will nonetheless be some Republicans that will stay home, or write in a candidate, or (a v small minority probably, mostly college educated women in already Dem. leaning states) who may end up voting for Clinton.

It matters though because the margins in recent American elections have been relatively small. Even if Trump loses 2% of his base support, that can have a dramatic effect. These shenanigans also make it very hard for him to expand his support, which is what the next 98 days have to be about - both camps fighting for the swing voters.
posted by modernnomad at 5:53 AM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

But it says there that Hanna is retiring, so he's in a position where he doesn't have to give a fuck about re-election. Most of the other congress-critters are not in that position.
posted by wabbittwax at 5:53 AM on August 2, 2016 [10 favorites]

Regarding the "No such thing as bad publicity" idea, I am concerned about what Trump might signal for the future of politics. He's able to attract so much notice and, through that, support simply by using Twitter and then answering questions about what he says on mainstream media. Given how much more money Clinton's campaign has been able to raise compared to Trump, this suggests Trump won't be the last person to go this route.

The next time it may not be someone quite as self destructive as Trump, and it could be someone running as a democrat or, god help us, candidates for both main political parties.

As much as I would love to see Citizens United overturned, fund raising can act as at least some modest check on a candidates fitness for office. If all barriers are lowered then it becomes much more difficult to exert any influence on people running for office.

Add to that the changing media landscape, where so many more people are turning to "alternative" sources for news and entertainment , it's hard to know where this will all go, but right now it isn't looking very promising to me.
posted by gusottertrout at 6:05 AM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

As much as I'm heartened to see that there's (finally!) some (still relatively small) pushback from the media against Trump, I'm also now dreading a Trump loss nearly as much as a Trump win. He's already pivoting to "obviously I'm winning and if I don't it's because it was rigged". I fear that he has already pushed his supporters to the point where the result of a Trump loss is going to be widespread violence.

I'm starting to worry that the concept of political legitimacy, and the nation's history of the peaceful transfer of power, may not survive Trump.
posted by tocts at 6:08 AM on August 2, 2016 [14 favorites]

What the fuck timeline am I even living in.

"Computer, Arch!"... Shit, damned holodeck is still busted.
posted by mikelieman at 6:09 AM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

BIDEN: Owns a van

BIDEN: COWBELL!!! MOAR COWBELL! ALL THE COWBELL!
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:13 AM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

the next 98 days have

Down to two digits.

Look, I think we need to start looking past the horse race (that is, will Trump win or will Clinton win). That's not to say, of course, that we are complacent about turnout efforts and all the other things that need to happen between now and November. But we also need to focus in on what this candidacy and this imploding party are doing and will do to the social fabric of this country.

If Hillary Clinton wins, Trump will claim widespread election fraud. If she's won in a landslide I don't think too many people will actually stay on his train (though one never knows). But if it's close...

what tocts said.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:14 AM on August 2, 2016 [10 favorites]

The New York Times just sent out a breaking news alert for this story: Donald Trump Avoided Draft With a Heel Problem, but the Details Are Murky, explicitly linking it to his attacks on the Khans.

"New York Times Takes Aim at Trump's Achilles Heel"
posted by zarq at 6:14 AM on August 2, 2016 [15 favorites]

How fast would Trumpster heads explode if we brought in UN observers tho
posted by schadenfrau at 6:15 AM on August 2, 2016 [12 favorites]

I'm starting to worry that the concept of political legitimacy, and the nation's history of the peaceful transfer of power, may not survive Trump.

Well we already experienced that with the Birth Certificate issue. The question is whether he gets political support for his schismatics after the election. If it's just him and the denizens of /r/the_donald whining about how the system is RIGGED (it is Donald, it is, just not the way you think), then it will be a sideshow. But if actual political actors, like Ryan, refuse to recognize the legitimacy of the election, and call for action, we could be in trouble. American democracy is sustained above all by a set of norms, none of which Donald Grump even knows exists. Those norms should restrain the rest of the political system. If they don't it's all over.
posted by dis_integration at 6:16 AM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

I keep trying to put myself in the mind of a Trump supporter, to imagine what they feel and how they could really support this deeply flawed man. Although it doesn't feel right, when I put on my xenophobic/redneck/'merica first hat I get it. He makes these people feel safe. He wraps them in a giant security blanket by decrying all types of brown people, and says the most unconventional things possible about keeping them OUT of this country. It's disgusting, but I really believe the only way we can combat this perspective is to try to imagine how these people feel, and if there is any sort of reasonable compromise.

At the root of all this is Trump's unbelievable manipulation of the media. He's figured out the cycle perfectly: it all begins with painting the media as dishonest, biased, liars. Trump is the hero, the "straight-talker," speaking straight from the heart and telling the truth that the global conspiracy (zionist/insert your prejudice here) rulers keep us from hearing. Because grand conspiracies control everything, and that's what's keeping middle America down- the news media feeding the disinformation to the masses...but Trump is here to save the day! Time to be politically incorrect and say whatever offensive thing comes to mind.

Naturally, the media will pick apart and attack awful things he's said; at this point Trump has fully manipulated his loyal followers. Because HE'S the man the media/Illuminati want to keep down! He's telling the truth! " Look, the media is attacking me! Look how much they don't want me in power! Clearly if they ALL want to keep me down, I'm saying something so TRUE, so POWERFUL, that the global elite fight me at every measure! Clearly they wouldn't attack me so much if I didn't "stir the pot," but the more they fight me the more obvious it is how corrupt they are!"

Here is the impossible task I would challenge everyone here to find a way to do: we need to convince the followers of the real reason the media is like this. Although of course there is bias and irresponsible reporting, grand global media conspiracies do not exist (in the sense that he claims). For some people too far down the conspiracy rabbithole, they will never accept that, but we have to hope and pray some of the republican moderates can be persuaded away. We have to try.

What it comes down to, Donald, is the media isn't constantly attacking you because you represent a threat to the grand global conspiracy.

They're attacking you because you're an asshole.

But of course every new attack only strengthens the mindset that "this must be done to keep us down! If the evil media attacks this man, clearly he is speaking truth to power!" Until we find a way to show the people the REAL reason most of the media are denigrating the demagogue, we will continue to scratch our heads and fear what will come.
posted by andruwjones26 at 6:16 AM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm new here, but when is it acceptable to have a new thread? This one is getting pretty rickety for me
posted by schadenfrau at 6:19 AM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Mr. Trump and Spineless Republicans

Well at least we know what the Republican leadership band is called now.
posted by Talez at 6:20 AM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

What, exactly, would they consider beyond the pale from the party's nominee?

Pledge to raise taxes on the rich.
posted by holgate at 6:23 AM on August 2, 2016 [9 favorites]

We're not likely to get a new election thread on a regular basis. The one-a-day during the conventions was an exception to the rules. Mods are worn out. If there's something uniquely news-worthy, that might be a time for a new thread.
posted by yesster at 6:27 AM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

How fast would Trumpster heads explode if we brought in UN observers tho

They have already been brought in before, but I don't know how many of the Trump supporters can remember back to 2012.
posted by winna at 6:28 AM on August 2, 2016

Josh Marshall: Feel The State Tremble

It's true that Republicans have been very disingenuously pushing the 'voter fraud' con for years, especially as the power of minority voting has grown over the last two decades. However, as bad as that has been, there's a major difference. Republicans to date have almost always used bogus claims of 'voter fraud' to rev up their troops and build support for restrictive voting laws, largely focused on minority voters. A number of those laws have been overturned by federal courts in the last week. A notable case was North Carolina where the Court found that the changes were intentionally designed to limit voting by black North Carolinians.

What Republicans politicians have virtually never done was use this canard to lay the groundwork for rejecting the result of a national election. This is Donald Trump, not a normal politician. You should not be surprised if he refuses to accept the result of an electoral defeat or calls on his supporters to resist it.

The other point goes to the raced nature of all voter suppression legislation. They focus overwhelmingly on claims that African-Americans commit rampant vote fraud in "inner cities" and that immigrants, particularly Hispanic immigrants do the same. These are of course two of Trump's main group enemies. Combining the animosity he has already stoked among his followers toward these groups with the claim that they will now try to "steal" the election through fraud is nothing less than striking a match in a gas filled room.

posted by zombieflanders at 6:30 AM on August 2, 2016 [12 favorites]

If there's something uniquely news-worthy, that might be a time for a new thread.

Over-under at 36 hours till a new thread then?

(Apologies to the Mods, they're doing a great job!)
posted by strange chain at 6:30 AM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

American democracy is sustained above all by a set of norms, none of which Donald Grump even knows exists. Those norms should restrain the rest of the political system. If they don't it's all over.

And see, this fact is one of the things that frightens me. I know it's not always useful to make historical comparisons, but I can't help but keep going back to the idea that in large part, the actions that led to the fall of the Roman Republic (and the rise of the Roman Empire) were a series of demagogues flouting norms (but technically working within the letter of the law) until they had amassed enough power to start ignoring the law as well.

The Republican party has spent decades saying to themselves, "oh hey, this longstanding norm that the government depends on to function isn't actually codified in law, so I can ignore it to my benefit!". Trump is the latest result of that downward spiral, and I'm having trouble seeing how we recover from it.
posted by tocts at 6:30 AM on August 2, 2016 [17 favorites]

I'm new here, but when is it acceptable to have a new thread?

When the mods say so.

Regarding the "No such thing as bad publicity" idea, I am concerned about what Trump might signal for the future of politics. He's able to attract so much notice and, through that, support simply by using Twitter and then answering questions about what he says on mainstream media. Given how much more money Clinton's campaign has been able to raise compared to Trump, this suggests Trump won't be the last person to go this route.

Yep, this. I remain hopeful (though never complacent) that Trump can be defeated in November – and if that happens, I'm going to breathe a big sigh of relief. But even then, our difficulties have just begun. Trump's campaign has burned the norms of political campaigning and discourse to the ground, and has shifted the Overton window to accommodate white nationalism, authoritarianism, pledges to commit war crimes, and near-literal dick-measuring contests, to name just a few.

There is a frighteningly large segment of the electorate that's willing to put an openly racist, narcissist, crackpot, incompetent President into office – and unless he loses in a landslide, it's hard to imagine that some other would-be tyrant won't look at his near-success and think "hey, I can do that...maybe even better". No matter what happens in November, the past year has already done serious, long-term damage to our ability to sustain a healthy democracy.

There's plenty of blame to go around – the incentives that drive the media, the balkanization of news into echo chambers that allows conspiracy theories and other questionable narratives to flourish, the spinelessness of the GOP to repudiate Trump, the years of Fox News that paved the way for this, the self-sabotaging righteousness of the Bernie-or-bust crowd, etc. We've entered an era of post-factual politics, and that's scary. I hope our republic survives, and that we're able to stabilize this listing ship.

In the meantime, I know I'm not the only one who is saving aggressively and postponing major purchases. Who knows what the coming months will bring.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 6:30 AM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

yesster: "We're not likely to get a new election thread on a regular basis. The one-a-day during the conventions was an exception to the rules. Mods are worn out. If there's something uniquely news-worthy, that might be a time for a new thread."

At a rate of about 500 comments a day, we'll be over 15,000 comments before this thread locks up after a month.
posted by octothorpe at 6:30 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

unless he loses in a landslide, it's hard to imagine that some other would-be tyrant won't look at his near-success and think "hey, I can do that...maybe even better".

Ted Cruz is way ahead of you ;)
posted by diogenes at 6:35 AM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm hearing the fear from everyone about how no matter what happens, we're in hot water: a Clinton victory just guarantees more of the crazies come out and do awful things in protest. Violence sadly seems like a likely conclusion for this election season.

This is why we have to try to find anyway to de-escalate the situation amongst Trump supporters. How do we make them see he's a fraud? How do we separate politics entirely and show that he has no ability to tell the truth or follow through on promises?

At this point I'm sure there are some supporters who might suspect they're in the wrong, but no one wants to feel stupid. No one wants to feel like they've been had, been tricked by this snake oil salesman. How we do we help people who feel this way get over that and jump off the train before it crashes?
posted by andruwjones26 at 6:36 AM on August 2, 2016 [10 favorites]

There is a frighteningly large segment of the electorate that's willing to put an openly racist, narcissist, crackpot, incompetent President into office – and unless he loses in a landslide, it's hard to imagine that some other would-be tyrant won't look at his near-success and think "hey, I can do that...maybe even better".

Yeah, Trump is John the Baptist in terms of horrifying candidates for political office. He comes to prepare the way.
posted by winna at 6:38 AM on August 2, 2016 [24 favorites]

Christ, what an asshole.
posted by wabbittwax at 6:38 AM on August 2, 2016

I'm terrified of the "rigged election" rhetoric. A conservative friend compared it to 2000, but it's nothing like that. This morning reading the paper about it I had a serious moment of visceral fear for the future of US democracy.
posted by OmieWise at 6:38 AM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

> How do we make them see he's a fraud?

Go back in time and improve the educational system's ability to teach critical thinking skills?
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:39 AM on August 2, 2016 [9 favorites]

At this point I'm sure there are some supporters who might suspect they're in the wrong, but no one wants to feel stupid. No one wants to feel like they've been had, been tricked by this snake oil salesman. How we do we help people who feel this way get over that and jump off the train before it crashes?

If they're anything like Trump temperamentally (and I hope for their own sakes as well as all ours that they aren't), we know they'll dig in and double down if they think they're being attacked or, really, even slighted.

So maybe, even if they're being fucking idiots, we should make an extra effort NOT to call them fucking idiots, and just try to calmly (and without editorializing) point at Trump's increasingly-unhinged antics.

tbh I dunno if I can do that, though.
posted by dersins at 6:42 AM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

Well apparently Clinton had a YUUUUGE fundraising month in July with over $90m raised leaving her with over $56m cash on hand.

At this point with Trump basically self-immolating and the likely impact of negative coat-tails on down ballot races I can only imagine the Clinton advisors salivating like dogs about to hunt but on the other hand if Trump is dominating the news cycle in a negative way why even waste any money currently.

It's a real quandary, a great quandary to be in but still a real quandary.
posted by vuron at 6:43 AM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

How do we make them see he's a fraud?

Find a recent copy of his tax returns.
posted by cyclopticgaze at 6:43 AM on August 2, 2016 [24 favorites]

I don't think it's about them seeing he's a fraud, sadly. I think a lot of dudes, especially but not limited to white dudes, are realizing correctly that they aren't particularly valued anymore in the ways they used to be - that them just being a correctly performing male is not enough to get by, and more importantly, people don't want them to anymore.
posted by corb at 6:45 AM on August 2, 2016 [38 favorites]

The key to making Trump lose his support is to goad him and needle him until he goes ballistic. He is so thin-skinned, so insecure, such a worthless, blustering, coward. Hillary just needs to calmly poke him until he reveals himself in so obvious a way that not even Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh can rationalize it.
posted by wabbittwax at 6:45 AM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

If you look at the CNN poll from yesterday, the percentage of likely voters who thought Trump is "someone you would be proud to have as President" was only 30%, right above the 27% "people are loony" constant.

The difference between that 30% and Trump's polling percentage at the moment is made of people who think Trump would make a bad President, but think Hillary would make a worse one. These kind of people aren't going to buy into Trump's "the election was rigged" crap, and, more importantly, they are persuadable. That 30% is his floor. We can get there by working as hard as we can to convince people (a) Trump is worse than they think and (b) Hillary is better than they think. Frankly, we don't even need to help with (a) right now because Trump is doing it for himself.
posted by sallybrown at 6:48 AM on August 2, 2016 [14 favorites]

How do we make them see he's a fraud?

Professional journalism should be filling that role. Some journalists are trying.

I'd like to see more push on the tax returns. And investigations into his business deals.
posted by yesster at 6:48 AM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

How do we make them see he's a fraud?

I don't think you can. His most ardent supporters have bought into him on a very personal level, and that buy-in is part of their self-identity and self-worth.

Attempts to turn the tide by showing that Trump is a fraud amounts to bringing facts to an emotion fight.
posted by tocts at 6:48 AM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

Hillary just needs to calmly poke him until he reveals himself in so obvious a way that not even Sean Hannity or Rush Limbaugh can rationalize it.

Assumes facts not in evidence.
posted by zombieflanders at 6:48 AM on August 2, 2016 [12 favorites]

Exposing Trump as a fraud has been done, time and time again. But it doesn't matter, because he's not lying, he's bullshitting. The difference is that when you're bullshitting, your audience knows you're not telling them the truth and Does. Not. Fucking. Care.

There's no way to dissuade the willing audience of a bullshitter. The people to concentrate on are the ones who don't like Clinton or Trump and are able to hold their noses.
posted by Etrigan at 6:48 AM on August 2, 2016 [42 favorites]

In the meantime, I know I'm not the only one who is saving aggressively and postponing major purchases. Who knows what the coming months will bring.

I just spent my lifesavings on a condo. thisisfine.jpg
posted by Potomac Avenue at 6:49 AM on August 2, 2016 [14 favorites]

andruwjones26:

"Violence sadly seems like a likely conclusion for this election season."

That's the problem with hate. If they win they get the legal power to hurt those they hate. If they lose they are willing to cause hurt in retaliation. There is no way to completely win this scenario, only survive it.
posted by charred husk at 6:50 AM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Laurence Tribe seems to have jumped in against the slurs again Mr. Khan.

"After studying at Harvard Law School, Khizr Kahn practiced law at the same law firm as Chief Justice Roberts."
posted by chris24 at 6:51 AM on August 2, 2016 [21 favorites]

that led to the fall of the Roman Republic (and the rise of the Roman Empire) were a series of demagogues flouting norms

Yeah, not seating Garland on the Court already is a helluva Constitutional departure for the GOP right now.

All these attempts at making voting more difficult for certain populations, too.

Whatever that is, it's not representative democracy, that's for sure.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 6:53 AM on August 2, 2016 [18 favorites]

How do we make them see he's a fraud?

Facts don't matter, guys. They don't. He was endorsed by the leaders of Russia and North Korea, and supporters of the party that claims to hate those countries more than anyone in the world have embraced him. That's game-over for facts winning the day.

If politics since the original Clinton administration have proven anything, it's that there is literally no argument you can make that will make them go "Oh my God! I'm wrong! This whole time I was wrong and now I see the light!" I'm not even sure the "caught with a dead girl or a live boy" cliche could derail him at this point, if it happened.

Making sure that he doesn't get to the Oval is of course of yuge importance, but Trump is not the problem. Trump is a symptom. If we don't address the deeper problem, it will keep being symptomatic, and those symptoms are going to get worse. The disease that gave rise to Palin and then Trump is going to get smarter at attacking its host.
posted by middleclasstool at 6:54 AM on August 2, 2016 [44 favorites]

To a certain, probably large, segment of Republican voters, it's not about Trump vs Clinton at all. In the same way people urge Bernie supporters to "hold their nose" and vote for Clinton because Supreme Court, they are thinking the same thing from the opposite direction. Whatever their pet issue is - anti-abortion, pro-gun, pro-"religious freedom" - they know voting Clinton will do great, great damage to that cause, whereas Trump will probably approve anything the Republican congress passes. They know Trump is an unhinged fascist, but that's not as important as preventing the evil liberals from running the government.

You're not going to convince them to vote for Hillary. You're probably not going to convince them to stay home. You need to convince left-leaning people who normally don't bother voting to get out and vote for Hillary.
posted by Roommate at 6:57 AM on August 2, 2016 [12 favorites]

The disease that gave rise to Palin and then Trump is going to get smarter at attacking its host.

On the bright side, the demographics are only going to get worse for them.
posted by diogenes at 6:57 AM on August 2, 2016 [10 favorites]

Like, for people like my father (GRAR) I think it's less about "is he right about what he's saying or not." My father is a guy who has slowly been seething in resentment over the last ten years because the recession hit at his ability to be a Provider, and he couldn't Support His Wife And Child In Traditional Style, after believing in the promise of America for so long. I know what my dad wants - my dad wants a return to the promise of America that he watched on TV - where being a (sort of white presenting) Man Who Worked Hard was enough.

He refers to Trump as "having foot in mouth disease", but then says, and a direct quote, "Trump resonates much more with my view of the world than Hillary, and that's why I'm voting for him."

That's the danger. That's why we've been failing to stop him thus far, because the things we're attacking him on only make people like him more. They think, "oh man, I say stupid shit sometimes, what if someone picked on me for the stupid shit I say?" It is MADDENING and INCONCEIVABLE, but this is the world we are living in and we somehow need to figure out a way to bleed out this anger. Because someone upthread was right - historically speaking, when you have this much anger, it doesn't go away when they lose an election. Especially if they don't believe they did - OR believe that "those (insert ethnicity here)" are the ones who made them lose.
posted by corb at 6:58 AM on August 2, 2016 [60 favorites]

re: the tax returns- my fantasy is that the IRS will step back and say, "you know what? Given the necessity of any presidential candidate to be transparent and forthcoming with financial documents, we don't want to provide a reason for them not to be made public. Therefore, we are postponing our audit of Donald J Trump until after the general election."

There's no way they could do this (would be accused of bias etc) but it would be the best thing ever- Trump would have no rock to hide behind and whine about being audited and why he can't release them. He needs to have no reason to defend with-holding his returns...anyway if someone knows ppl at the irs make this happen pls thx
posted by andruwjones26 at 6:59 AM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

I keep returning to the question of "what next?" and it really has me...not worried, exactly, but perplexed.

The script for politics is going to change. There will be more politicians who take the Trump approach and "shoot from the hip." Some of them will be awful, some will be OK, and some might be pretty great. I like Hilary and I will vote for her without qualms but I would love it if she dropped the mask for just a minute and said "Jesus Christ Trump can you even believe this guy?" I understand why that doesn't happen, and to a degree I appreciate the decorum, but I think the next phase of American politicking is going to change dramatically in that regard.

There's gonna be a lot of shit because of that.

But I think there's also opportunity for real good, too, for politicians to maybe equivocate a little less and feel as if they can speak openly and plainly against institutions that aren't working for the people on the basis that they're tired of playing by the rule book set out before them.

The white nationalist supremacists will be out there, in force, and loud, louder than they have been since pre-Civil Rights Act. But I think that many people will also feel empowered, in the face of such obvious evil, to get off their asses and get to work. I feel that happening within me, and I hope it bears good fruit.

Anyway, don't despair, do. Or, like Obama and Hilary said: don't boo, vote.
posted by Tevin at 7:01 AM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

Has anyone explained WHY him being audited is an excuse for not releasing them? I don't understand how it functions as an excuse - I must be missing some context.
posted by winna at 7:01 AM on August 2, 2016

Republican Rep. Richard Hanna will vote for Clinton
posted by Artw at 7:03 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

It's not a real excuse, it's just the excuse Trump is offering. If the IRS came out and said they weren't actually auditing him, he still wouldn't release them. And probably would just continue to insist he's being audited.
posted by Roommate at 7:03 AM on August 2, 2016 [11 favorites]

I thought he dropped the auditing excuse anyway, and just said he wouldn't release them.
posted by cashman at 7:05 AM on August 2, 2016

Eric Trump: Ivanka wouldn't allow herself to be subjected to sexual harassment: . "I think what he’s saying is, Ivanka is a strong, powerful woman, she wouldn’t allow herself to be objected to it, and by the way, you should take it up with Human Resources, and I think she would as a strong person, at the same time, I don’t think she would allow herself to be subjected to that. I think that’s a point he was making, and I think he did so well."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:05 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Has anyone explained WHY him being audited is an excuse for not releasing them? I don't understand how it functions as an excuse - I must be missing some context.

It's not an excuse. It's total grade-A bullshit. He is acting as if there is only a single copy of his returns in the world and thus he can't release them because the IRS has its mitts on them. And/or "o no what if we release them and then I have to make a correction because they found a mistake in the audit."

Obviously none of this has anything to do with his past returns, and yet he somehow can't release those either.

It's just a lie, and a bad one at that.
posted by sallybrown at 7:06 AM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Also the 538 update from an hour ago has Hilary at 66% chance of winning for polls only and 69% polls plus. That's quite a relief for now, hopefully it stabilizes a couple points above that.
posted by Tevin at 7:06 AM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Warren Buffet came out yesterday and said he's also being audited and he'll happily show his tax return with Trump because this is not a thing. It is an utter bullshit excuse.
posted by gatorae at 7:06 AM on August 2, 2016 [21 favorites]

Warren Buffett is rattling the cage a bit on the tax return issue. He says he's being audited too but there is nothing to stop him from releasing his returns to the public.
posted by wabbittwax at 7:06 AM on August 2, 2016 [13 favorites]

Because someone upthread was right - historically speaking, when you have this much anger, it doesn't go away when they lose an election.

Give them government jobs building infrastructure projects? Hard to be angry when you're tired and well paid.
posted by schadenfrau at 7:07 AM on August 2, 2016 [13 favorites]

Yeah, he's said time and time again "no one releases their tax returns when they're being audited! everyone knows this!" In spite of the fact that many tax professionals have said this statement is not grounded in reality and that there is no downside to making returns public while being audited.

Unfortunately, there was a good link upthread providing an ok reason why he wouldn't want to release them- it boiled down to citizens/independent investigators pouring over them and finding things the IRS may not find otherwise. At some point I wouldn't be surprised if Trump had to use this as the official excuse.
posted by andruwjones26 at 7:07 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

The difference is that when you're bullshitting, your audience knows you're not telling them the truth and Does. Not. Fucking. Care.

The chair of the Fayette Co. (PA) Democratic Committee recently made this point on NPR: Trump's promises in the Rust Belt to bring back steel and coal are utter bullshit, and the people here mostly do know that. Coal is a finite resource and advances in technology mean that you need far, far few people to extract it. The steel mills are mostly not even there any more, they've been razed. Everyone knows they're gone for good. They don't care. It makes them feel good that someone is saying that they want coal and steel to come back. It doesn't matter that it isn't going to ever happen, under Trump or anyone else. Meanwhile Hillary comes in and tells the truth: it's not coming back, but we can make plans to help move the local economy beyond these two industries and into something more sustainable and more lucrative. But, like, that's hard, it doesn't feel good to have someone say that the industry that your dad and your grandpa and your great grandpa worked in is DOA. So she gets pilloried for saying it. This is entirely a post-factual election. Facts don't matter, feelings do. We've been moving in this direction for a long time. Trump is the logical conclusion.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:07 AM on August 2, 2016 [49 favorites]

But what if your dad is the one doing the sexual harassment?

Because holy shit some of the interviews that Trevor Noah has linked to with Ivanka sitting right next to him looking mortified have been creepy as fuck.

How does HR deal with that shit?
posted by vuron at 7:08 AM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

Like, for people like my father (GRAR) I think it's less about "is he right about what he's saying or not." My father is a guy who has slowly been seething in resentment over the last ten years because the recession hit at his ability to be a Provider, and he couldn't Support His Wife And Child In Traditional Style, after believing in the promise of America for so long. I know what my dad wants - my dad wants a return to the promise of America that he watched on TV - where being a (sort of white presenting) Man Who Worked Hard was enough.

One of the fundamental problems of America is that America is not just a place, it is a story we tell ourselves. It's Paul Bunyan and Ruth calling his shot and revolutionaries openin' up their squirrel guns and givin' the British wellllllll....

America as myth has propelled us to do some goddamn amazing things, but it also encourages us to declare ourselves citizens of that myth rather than the reality. The frustrating part is that you can't counter that myth with facts or figures. You have to take it over and use it. I'm not sure of the best way to do that, but I suspect that it starts with us listening to people who have bought into the The Past Was Uniformly Better Myth (instead of rolling our eyes) and saying okay, I believe we can get to a future where a single-income household is possible for most who want it, and we only get there together, everyone on board.
posted by middleclasstool at 7:09 AM on August 2, 2016 [15 favorites]

For lawyers playing along at home, yes, Khazir Khan worked at Hogan Lovells.

In fact, if you now google "Khazir Khan Hogan" as I did, the top links are all people talking about how Hogan Lovells fits into their read of why Khazir Khan is part of the Muslim Brotherhood.

Imagine the deeply, deeply annoyed e-mails the executive committee and/or the managing partner for the DC office must be sending to each other over the past few days.

(For people who aren't lawyers -- it's particularly ridiculous because, as you might guess from Roberts having worked there, Hogan Lovells is a regulatory and lobbying powerhouse, super-fancy, super-prestigious, and super-connected to the political structure in DC and thus correspondingly NOT INVOLVED IN THE MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD.)
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:10 AM on August 2, 2016 [21 favorites]

Yeah. Looking at things like the Trump web page and campaign-merch aesthetic with my 'merica first hat on (thank you for that): yeah, refreshingly unpolished.

I think of this as the "infomercial aesthetic," wherein the fact that something appears to be poorly planned and executed reassures the audience that what they're seeing couldn't possibly be a slick, manufactured sales pitch, and thus must somehow be "authentic."
posted by dersins at 7:14 AM on August 2, 2016 [24 favorites]

The Khan family is off limits, Republican National Committee Chairman Reince Priebus said Monday, hours after Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump accused the Gold Star father of “viciously” attacking him.

The problem is that Priebus isn't going to do anything about it. His words don't mean anything.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:16 AM on August 2, 2016 [20 favorites]

Some people mentioned a bit back, that the more people that vote, the better things are. I was going to finish that with a candidate name, but really it's just good when people vote. So, can we talk about what to do locally to avoid or mitigate the long lines of 2012?

If you live in a place where early voting is a thing, do it and get your friends to do it also. Yeah, it's fun to actually punch your ballot on election day but voting early if you can means you're not in a line. (And if campaigns know you already voted they don't have to worry about trying to make sure you get to the polls).
posted by dismas at 7:17 AM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

the top links are all people talking about how Hogan Lovells fits into their read of why Khazir Khan is part of the Muslim Brotherhood

small lol - I know it's not funny but imagining some of the partners there right now - lol

Hogan & Hartson (before it merged with Lovells) was the oldest law firm founded and headquartered in DC. Edward Bennett Williams, one of the most famous U.S. litigators of all time (and past owner of the Redskins), worked at Hogan before he founded Williams & Connolly.

There is significantly more chance of Trump being connected to the Muslim Brotherhood than there is of Hogan.
posted by sallybrown at 7:17 AM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

This evangelical, anti-choice woman is voting for Hillary. She makes an outstanding (if extremely long) case for the reasons why. I'm deeply impressed.
posted by Sophie1 at 7:19 AM on August 2, 2016 [39 favorites]

So, can we talk about what to do locally to avoid or mitigate the long lines of 2012?

37 states have some form of early voting, and 27 have no-excuse absentee ballots. Taking advantage of this is not only the best way to mitigate the problem of long lines and insuffient polling places, it also allows campaigns to better focus their election day GOTV efforts.
posted by dersins at 7:20 AM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

Not my state, alas :(
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:22 AM on August 2, 2016

the top links are all people talking about how Hogan Lovells fits into their read of why Khazir Khan is part of the Muslim Brotherhood

Hey if the president can be a muslim sleeper agent terrorist, why can't some whiteshoe firm lawyer?
posted by dis_integration at 7:22 AM on August 2, 2016

He's bad enough if he were sane, and if he's not totally perfectly mentally healthy that makes no difference. His platform makes him a terrible choice, and after that it doesn't really matter why.

You have obviously never had to deal with a real-life psychopath.
posted by sour cream at 7:22 AM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

The Khan family is off limits, Republican National Committee Chairman Reince Priebus said Monday, hours after Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump accused the Gold Star father of “viciously” attacking him. (Politico, August 1, 2016)

The headline is "RNC chief rebukes Trump: Khans ‘should be off limits’"

That's not a "rebuke." He's disagreeing and saying that Trump is speaking for himself.
posted by zarq at 7:24 AM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

Discussion of Trump sewing the seeds of the "stolen election" meme at Gawker, with this passage from John Kerry:

Here’s the quote from Kerry that I’m thinking of, re: Ohio in 2004. He’s talking to a presidential candidate in Afghanistan after both candidates accused one another of trying to steal the election:

“I will share with you a very personal experience: When I ran for President of the United States, in 2004, against George Bush, in the end, on Election Day, we had problems in the state of Ohio on how the votes were taking place. I even went to court in America to keep polling places open to make sure my people could vote. I knew that even in my country, the United States, where we had hundreds of years of practicing democracy, we still had problems carrying out that election. The next afternoon, I had a meeting with my people, and I told them that I did not think it appropriate of me to take the country through three or four months of not knowing who the President was. So that afternoon in Boston I conceded to the President and talked about the need to bring the country together. . . . One of the main lessons from this is there is a future. There is a tomorrow.”

Sometimes the norms of the establishment are there for a reason.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:27 AM on August 2, 2016 [21 favorites]

Joe Biden Officiates Wedding of World’s Luckiest Couple:

Now we know the real reason Joe Biden forced President Obama to back marriage equality (aside from his belief that gay people deserve the same rights as all other Americans): He wanted to get into the wedding racket. The vice-president officiated a same-sex wedding on Monday, marrying two White House staffers at his residence.

posted by kirkaracha at 7:27 AM on August 2, 2016 [22 favorites]

Also the 538 update from an hour ago has Hilary at 66% chance of winning for polls only and 69% polls plus. That's quite a relief for now, hopefully it stabilizes a couple points above that.

That's not a relief to me, that's playing Russian Roulette with a six-shooter with two chambers loaded. It's very good that the polls (and corresponding probabilities) are responding positively post-convention, but this is still much, much too close for comfort.
posted by biogeo at 7:27 AM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

This is the first time Biden has officiated a wedding, but now that Americans know they can ask him to perform their wedding, it’ll probably be his full-time job come January.

I have never been so excited to be engaged.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:30 AM on August 2, 2016 [9 favorites]

I'm new here, but when is it acceptable to have a new thread? This one is getting pretty rickety for me

This thread (and/or maybe a different webpage) actually made Firefox crash when I had "Inline comment updates" enabled. Once I disabled that option (edit profile, fourth check-box down in the Display Settings options), I'm still running well on my desktop. And luckily, my iPhone hasn't choked too badly with inline updates still running.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:35 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Acceptable forms of payment for Biden's Hitchin' Post are: cash, gift certificates to Dunkin' Donuts, or "rides to the airport" at an undisclosed date in the near future.
posted by Tevin at 7:36 AM on August 2, 2016 [12 favorites]

This is the first time Biden has officiated a wedding, but now that Americans know they can ask him to perform their wedding, it’ll probably be his full-time job come January.

I can't wait for Onion Diamond Joe to officiate a same-sex marriage. Ribbed undershirt and jeans, (suns out guns out!), can of miller on the podium, unashamed of the love he sees in the two of them.
posted by dis_integration at 7:37 AM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

> This is the first time Biden has officiated a wedding, but now that Americans know they can ask him to perform their wedding, it’ll probably be his full-time job come January.

> I have never been so excited to be engaged.

Congrats!

And now it's time to convince my wife that we should renew our vows for our 10th anniversary next year ;)

I wonder if he'd also serve as the wedding band.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:37 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

And what's more (god I am so worked up over this) those leaked DNC emails that amounted to the committee (not the candidate, not the government, some workerbees in the party organization) doing some mean girls smacktalking over email is being used by all sorts of people who should know better to "prove" that elections in this country are routinely rigged. Even as those emails prove or even imply nothing of the sort. That's the meme currently on a thread in my local city-data board (where I mingle with the hoi polloi lol). No one has actually come out in favor of Trump there, but it's rampant with Crooked HIllary Stole The Primaries, Ergo All Elections Are Rigged (And Hillary is Probably to Blame).

Again, this shit is post-factual. The feeling people get when elections don't turn out the way they want is what is important. And everyone has 50 Facebook friends who agree with them politically, so we totally know that everyone in the country is voting this way, because all my friends are voting this way, therefore when the election turns out that way and makes me feel confused and surprised and bad, that means it was rigged!
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:38 AM on August 2, 2016 [23 favorites]

69% polls plus

nice
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:39 AM on August 2, 2016 [9 favorites]

> Also the 538 update from an hour ago has Hilary at 66% chance of winning for polls only and 69% polls plus. That's quite a relief for now, hopefully it stabilizes a couple points above that.

> That's not a relief to me, that's playing Russian Roulette with a six-shooter with two chambers loaded. It's very good that the polls (and corresponding probabilities) are responding positively post-convention, but this is still much, much too close for comfort.

And miles to go before we vote. And miles to go before we vote. So much could change.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:40 AM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

I like Hilary and I will vote for her without qualms but I would love it if she dropped the mask for just a minute and said "Jesus Christ Trump can you even believe this guy?" I understand why that doesn't happen, and to a degree I appreciate the decorum, but I think the next phase of American politicking is going to change dramatically in that regard.

I don't.

Decorum ensures that everyone understands the rules, that people will behave in predictable ways, that there are clear limits to what may and may not be said and done. It's okay for the rules of decorum to be looser for individuals but when you're talking about the leaders of our country I want them to speak clearly, civilly and in ways that are enveloped in standard expectations of diplomatic behavior.

Even when it drives me crazy that they won't speak more bluntly there are reasons why they shouldn't.
posted by winna at 7:41 AM on August 2, 2016 [15 favorites]

The steel mills are mostly not even there any more, they've been razed. Everyone knows they're gone for good. They don't care. It makes them feel good that someone is saying that they want coal and steel to come back.

He's only really talking to people who are at least fifty years old who remember the mills. They've have been gone from Western PA for thirty-five years by now and there's not even places left to build mills. The old sites are all shopping malls, housing and office parks by this time.
posted by octothorpe at 7:42 AM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

Sophie1: This evangelical, anti-choice woman is voting for Hillary. She makes an outstanding (if extremely long) case for the reasons why. I'm deeply impressed.

... I wrote that if I were to be a single issue voter, abortion would be that issue for me.

So what’s changed?

Nothing.

Well, nothing in my stance toward abortion. I’m still opposed to it. But since Roe v. Wade, most Republicans have talked a lot about abortion while doing little to make meaningful change in that area of policy. Furthermore, they’ve opposed or even stalled measures that could prevent abortions by targeting the underlying causes, like poverty, education, lack of access to healthcare, and supports for single parent and low-income families. In fact, I suspect these reasons contribute to why abortion rates rose under Reagan, rose under the first Bush, dropped under Clinton, held steady under the second Bush, and have been dropping under Obama. As such, I’m not sure we can hold that voting Republican is the best thing for abortion rates in this country.

BAM!

I am generally annoyed by anti-choicers because so often it sounds like that's the only thing they care about. I haven't searched for anyone with such informed views on why women have children they don't want or can't support, so I'm happy to hear people are thinking about the very important whys.

And I'm even happier she identifies how Republican policies actually hurt her desires despite efforts to roll back Roe v. Wade, bit by bit.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:47 AM on August 2, 2016 [75 favorites]

He's only really talking to people who are at least fifty years old who remember the mills. They've have been gone from Western PA for thirty-five years by now and there's not even places left to build mills. The old sites are all shopping malls, housing and office parks by this time.

Yeah in PGH now "The Mills" are literally a shopping mall. They have some smokestacks for decoration. And a PF Changs.
posted by dis_integration at 7:47 AM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Social polls: Big data reveals top social media takeaways from the #RNC and #DNC Lots of good stuff such as

Ted Cruz and Melania Trump each grabbed more mentions than the vice presidential nominees combined:

Ted Cruz 772K mentions
Melania Trump 670K mentions

And

In real-time, during speeches the Sysomos social media analytics system observed large spikes in candidate social media activity.
The states most active on social media were New York and California.

Tweets per hour:

DNC: 36,447
RNC: 15,111

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:49 AM on August 2, 2016

soren_lorensen: Discussion of Trump sewing the seeds of the "stolen election" meme at Gawker, with this passage from John Kerry

A thought on this: I've heard that people who nudge election results in the US generally push elections with thin margins, so the results are still within the scope of the possible.

National elections provide a lot of places for people to throw out a few (hundred or thousand) ballots, and still say "everything's normal here, those were just people who didn't follow the rules" or something (see: hanging chads). And then we get Bush Jr. Twice.

But when there's a significant win for one side, those little pushes don't do enough to sway the end results, which is why we got two terms with Obama.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:52 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Khizr Khan says people's reactions to his speech has "reaffirmed my belief that some stands are worth taking."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:52 AM on August 2, 2016 [58 favorites]

Washington Post's Fact Checker Donald Trump’s revisionist history of mocking a disabled reporter

“I didn’t know what he looked like. I didn’t know he was disabled. I didn’t know it, I didn’t know it at all. I had no idea. So I started imitating somebody – I didn’t speak to the guy – somebody that was groveling. Everyone know what grovel is? At the time I did the act, I did the whole thing with groveling. And I said he’s groveling, he said, ‘no, no, the article, I was wrong on the article.’ I was doing a whole big number. ‘I was wrong, I promise you, I made a mistake when I wrote the article.’ He was groveling, grovel, grovel, grovel.”[snip]

Trump’s explanation in Colorado is simply not credible. First of all, we already confirmed that Kovaleski did not grovel or say he made a mistake. Moreover, Trump actually appears to paraphrase Kovaleski’s brief statement about not remembering that thousands of people celebrated. Trump now suggests he was just imitating a grovel, but that’s not what he was actually doing.

Boy Trump had a very full day yesterday. From calling Fire Marshals Hillary supporters to calling Mexico the "Eighth wonder of the world" and the Rust belt "rusty and rotten." I can't wait to see what he has to say today.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:53 AM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

at least half of those tweets came from the Donald himself though.
posted by wabbittwax at 7:54 AM on August 2, 2016

Yeah in PGH now "The Mills" are literally a shopping mall.

*drapes Terrible Towel reverently over head* Actually, that place is called The Waterfront (the site of the birth of the American labor movement hey-o!). However, down the Mon a piece you find the Southside Works new urbanist mixed use shopping area where some other mills used to be. And then waaaaay out in Tarentum you have Pittsburgh Mills shopping mall which was never a mill at all and was actually just some random undeveloped land next to Route 28.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:54 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Secret Life of Gravy: The states most active on social media were New York and California.

Now someone should calculate tweets per hour, per 100 (or 1,000 or 1 million) twitter users. New York and California are the 3rd and 1st most populated states, with Texas being #2, so it's not surprising NY and CA had so many tweets per hour.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:55 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Got an email from the Clinton campaign:

Because of this team, we raised nearly $90 million in July -- and we head into August with $58 million on hand to take on Donald Trump, register and turn out as many voters as possible, and win this election.

Seems like July was a pretty good fundraising month.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 7:55 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump staffers just removed Muslim students from the venue in Ashburn, Va. (cite)
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:55 AM on August 2, 2016 [15 favorites]

Secret Life of Gravy: Washington Post's Fact Checker ...

Boy Trump had a very full day yesterday

I know his plan: overwhelm fact-checkers and make them give up. He just as to keep talking and tweeting a mix of truths, half-facts, and nonsense, relying heavily on complex figures or obscure references that take an inordinate amount of time to research. Maybe talk about the wall some more, but throw out ten different possible scenarios and designs.

Except now there's a larger part of the internet that is interested in debunking his nonsense, so he won't win this battle, but he'll keep people busy talking (and thinking) about him.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:58 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Here's his rally, in case you want to catch today's firemarshaldiss live: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6H-DqWhXBE

Currently they're playing mawkish patriotic music and screwing around with the levels irritatingly. To drive out the libtards, I guess.
posted by Don Pepino at 8:01 AM on August 2, 2016

Here in Michigan we are voting today in various primaries, millages, judges, and, in my city, whether to open our city charter for revision. I was the 8th voter in my precinct, so your vote probably will make a real difference!

If you're a Michigan voter, you can go to the Secretary of State voter information page to see your ballot, whether you're registered, and where you vote. There's also a Michigan Voters Guide that was put together by the Detroit Free Press and other local papers, and Ballotpedia's entry on Michigan's local judicial elections that are being held today. The Metro Times also has a one-stop guide to today's election.

The Detroit Free Press published endorsements of judicial candidates, for those who are interested in such things - The Freep has historically been the more liberal of the two city papers.
posted by palindromic at 8:02 AM on August 2, 2016 [9 favorites]

David Small, a Trump supporter, says Obama's birth certificate is "the greatest crime in American history."

I am loving Daniel Dale.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:02 AM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

calling Mexico the "Eighth wonder of the world"

the fuck does this even mean
posted by murphy slaw at 8:04 AM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

IT IS WORDS ARRANGED IN AN ORDER THAT IS ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW
posted by dersins at 8:07 AM on August 2, 2016 [24 favorites]

And why is it supposed to be a bad thing?
posted by kyrademon at 8:07 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Again, this shit is post-factual. The feeling people get when elections don't turn out the way they want is what is important. And everyone has 50 Facebook friends who agree with them politically, so we totally know that everyone in the country is voting this way, because all my friends are voting this way, therefore when the election turns out that way and makes me feel confused and surprised and bad, that means it was rigged!

Yeah. "The cards are stacked against us" is the Trump theme. It's the leitmotif of his campaign -- the idea that everything and everyone in the Washington DC political establishment is unfair and the system is rigged and unjust and all of his enemies -- including in the media -- are trying to take him down and screw him over (and by extension his supporters as well.) It's an argument that puts very little distance between Republicans and Democrats -- he casts them both as equally corrupt. Which is likely why he has no problem turning on the GOP, and believes his supporters will stand by him for it. He's probably right that they will, too.

To some extent "you're being screwed over" is the modern theme of most political movements. It was a part of Senator Sanders' campaign as well, and that's probably why Trump thinks he has a shot at Sanders voters.
posted by zarq at 8:07 AM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

calling Mexico the "Eighth wonder of the world"

the fuck does this even mean

That he already forgot Andre the Giant.
posted by Etrigan at 8:08 AM on August 2, 2016 [31 favorites]

Does he think we're at war with Mexico?

Seriously, I am scratching my head trying to figure out why I'm supposed to be upset if Mexico is doing well.
posted by kyrademon at 8:10 AM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Seriously, I am scratching my head trying to figure out why I'm supposed to be upset if Mexico is doing well.

When you're not doing well, it sucks that someone else is.

(not a Trump bumper sticker, but might as well be)
posted by Etrigan at 8:12 AM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

it is full of brown people
posted by EarBucket at 8:12 AM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

That he already forgot Andre the Giant.

TRUMP FORGOT ABOUT 'DRE.
UNELECTABLE.
posted by murphy slaw at 8:12 AM on August 2, 2016 [17 favorites]

Does he think we're at war with Mexico? Seriously, I am scratching my head trying to figure out why I'm supposed to be upset if Mexico is doing well.

You're clearly not a great negotiator. It's a zero sum game. Obviously a prosperous Mexico would be devastating to the US.
posted by snofoam at 8:13 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

> Again, this shit is post-factual.

The whole fucking world is post-factual, and there's no coming back in the age of the internet and whatever lies beyond. I formally apologize on behalf of Generation X that this happened on our watch.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:21 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

From Strom Thurmond to Donald Trump: How the GOP Rose and Fell - How the ‘Stupid Party’ Created Donald Trump

Don't write the obituaries just yet.

How Trump won over the Republican Convention - the first modern Republican to win the nomination based on racial prejudice, making it the most dangerous organization in human history

The paradox of public service in a Trump administration

More at OMNIVORE.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:22 AM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

The whole fucking world is post-factual

I just want to know if somebody shot the guy who stepped on the butterfly.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:24 AM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

I am concerned about what Trump might signal for the future of politics.

Yes, he has definitely lowered our discourse and lowered the bar in several important ways, but he is just continuing a devolution started by Palin, tea party, etc. The best thing that could happen is a dismal, decisive defeat, which may let the air out of the tires and decimate the "proof of concept."

In other ways, I think he represents a sort of a perfect storm scenario, a one off. Let's not forget he had a few decades in the limelight building up to this point, including a few wildly popular TV shows, a few prior presidential runs, and years of experience in shilling, conning, duping, huckstering and pimping. He is impervious to shame and public pressure. Whether we here are susceptible to it or not, his "charisma" is strong; the Trump "brand" is strong, with all its tacky gilded promise of wealth. He is able to drive TV ratings in a way that few before him could and few after him will be able to duplicate. Plus he has a ton of dough.

Take the Kochs and Sheldon Adelson. They have the money to step out in the limelight, but they don't have the brand, the populist charisma, the unique confluence of personal characteristics that Trump has. TV would never give them so much air time, we'd all be falling asleep. So they tend to pick out and groom puppets like Scott Walker, which seems to work incredibly well on a state level but thus far, not so much on the national level.

With any luck, he is a unique demagogue of the type that only surfaces and takes hold once in a generation or more when a confluence of socio-economic factors make the climate ripe and the evil genius surfaces. In my lifetime, the only one like him - and not as successful - was George Wallace.
posted by madamjujujive at 8:29 AM on August 2, 2016 [11 favorites]

the most dangerous organization in human history

Umm...
posted by kirkaracha at 8:29 AM on August 2, 2016

the most dangerous organization in human history

Umm...

Didn't have nukes.
posted by Etrigan at 8:30 AM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

Trump has finally taken the stage in Ashburn, VA
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:31 AM on August 2, 2016

Seriously, I am scratching my head trying to figure out why I'm supposed to be upset if Mexico is doing well.

At this rate, it wouldn't surprise me in the least for Trump to add "invade Mexico" to his platform. "Those illegal immigrants think they can invade us? We'll show them! We are the best invaders, it will be amazing."

For real though, Obama is giving a press conference now that is pretty amazing.
posted by gatorae at 8:31 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

the most dangerous organization in human history

Umm...

Didn't have nukes.

Yeah Chomsky's claim is: they're rattling the nuke sabres, and also they'll refuse to do anything to counter climate change. So one hot apocalypse is coming.
posted by dis_integration at 8:32 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Obama got a question that was basically "Trump is crazy, is he fit to be president and how far can you crush this softball." To his credit, the answer is really far.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 8:33 AM on August 2, 2016 [21 favorites]

NO ONE WANTS TO GET A PURPLE HEART!
posted by chris24 at 8:35 AM on August 2, 2016 [53 favorites]

(Frank Burns did, but he was fictional)
posted by wabbittwax at 8:37 AM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

Jesus, that poor misguided wretch. It always hurts to see a heart given away to someone undeserving.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:37 AM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

It's for his collection.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:37 AM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

His vampire spawn just took the podium.
posted by dis_integration at 8:37 AM on August 2, 2016

PRESIDENT OBAMA just now on Trump: "Yes, I think the Republican nominee is unfit to serve as president."
posted by chris24 at 8:37 AM on August 2, 2016 [34 favorites]

EVERYBODY LOVES MELANIA! SHE GAVE AN UNBELIEVABLE SPEECH!
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:37 AM on August 2, 2016

NO ONE WANTS TO GET A PURPLE HEART!

People who think "being successful" is the same thing as making sacrifices probably do.
posted by dersins at 8:38 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

OBAMA to Republicans: "Why are you still endorsing him? What does it say about your party that this is your standard-bearer?"
posted by chris24 at 8:39 AM on August 2, 2016 [33 favorites]

Trump says his Loudoun golf course is worth $50M—county assessors say less than half that
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:39 AM on August 2, 2016

NO O̶N̶E̶ SANE GOOD PERSON WANTS TO GET A PURPLE HEART!
posted by chris24 at 8:40 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Pres. Obama: Romney, McCain "were wrong on certain policy issues but I never thought that they couldn't do the job."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:40 AM on August 2, 2016 [43 favorites]

It's like that old saying goes: 'A rising tide lift some boats but sinks a bunch of other boats, in equal measure, so you'd better build a wall to stop Mexico from literally flooding the country with immigrants.'

In this metaphor, America is a boat.

Wait though is the America boat being lifted by the rising tide or is it on dry land but there's a flood that's about to come so we need the wall but then why is the America boat on dry land in the first place and this metaphor is still way more coherent than the average trump utterance

*hhummzip*

(that was the sound of my brain shutting down)
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:41 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

I don't think it's fair, accurate, or wise to trace Republican post-factualism to Palin. Have we all just blocked out the prolonged war with reality that was the George W. Bush administration? Those people had a declared ideological stance against "fact based reality," and invaded a country over it.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:42 AM on August 2, 2016 [45 favorites]

"We need a powerful, strong military."

Yeah, the US is so fucking under-militarized.

"China didn't get environmental impact statements for the South China Sea."
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:43 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Obama is lifting Trump like a scythe and going *slice* and *slice* and *you want some too SLICE*
posted by angrycat at 8:43 AM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

trump is going to BLOW ALL AVAILABLE GASKETS when he hears what obama is saying

*makes all the popcorn*
posted by murphy slaw at 8:43 AM on August 2, 2016 [33 favorites]

A few comments deleted - please skip the huge copy-paste text dumps. Just link to things and post a description or an excerpt if it's important. Thanks.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 8:45 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

And before Bush II, there was Gingrich.

And before that, the dog-whistles and the double speak of the Southern Strategy.

The eagerness to deny reality is the GOP's brand.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:46 AM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Livestream
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:47 AM on August 2, 2016

People who think "being successful" is the same thing as making a sacrifice probably do.

Yeah, sometime you have to marvel at the mad genius of Trump: He has variously referred to his dad - evil land(over)lord Fred Trump - and himself as "working class", because, you see, they have worked very hard all their lives, so they are obviously "working class".

By contrast, all those moochers who cannot find a job are not "working class", because they ain't working, got it? And they ain't making any sacrifice either, because they get to see their kids all day long, not like those working class folks who have to work all day and make yuuge sacrifices for society.
posted by sour cream at 8:47 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

In my former life, I was a research assistant on a project that required me to transcribe recordings of 5th graders talking about science concepts that they had very very shaky grasps on. Hours and hours of recordings. Which I then had to code and actually make some kind of sense out of. I consider myself Pittsburgh's foremost expert on word salad. Everything that escapes Donald Trump's puckered maw, or his tiny tiny fingers, completely baffles me.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:47 AM on August 2, 2016 [45 favorites]

I don't think it's fair, accurate, or wise to trace Republican post-factualism to Palin. Have we all just blocked out the prolonged war with reality that was the George W. Bush administration?

Myself, I like to start with Reagan, at the very least by the time of the Iran-Contra affair. Also,Tim Kreider's reminiscences of Reagan:

The Washington Press corps was so enamored of his down-to-earth charm that they never checked his facts, but if you watched his face when it was at rest, when he wasn’t performing for anyone, you could see him for what he really was—a black-eyed, slit-mouthed, lizard-faced old son-of-a-bitch. He was a bad actor, an informer for McCarthy, and a hired front man for a gang of Texas oilmen, fundamentalist dingbats, and right-wing psychotics out of Dr. Strangelove. He put a genial face on chauvanism, callousness, and greed, and made people feel good about being bigots again. He likened Central American death squads to our founding fathers and called the Taliban “freedom fighters.” His legacy includes the dismantling of Franklin Roosevelt’s New Deal, the final dirty win of Management over Labor, the outsourcing of America’s manufacturing base, the embezzlement of almost all the country's wealth by 1% of its citizens, the scapegoating of the poor and black, the War on Drugs, the eviction of schizophrenics into the streets, AIDS, acid rain, Iran-Contra, and, let’s not forget, the corpses of two hundred forty United States Marines.

posted by palindromic at 8:52 AM on August 2, 2016 [46 favorites]

I'm going to gain 10 lbs by November from stress-eating.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:52 AM on August 2, 2016 [15 favorites]

I know his plan: overwhelm fact-checkers and make them give up.

I'm more worried it will overwhelm the public. It's like that "Fox and Friends" SNL sketch where there are so many corrections to the "facts" that they scroll by on the screen too fast to read them.
posted by Waiting for Pierce Inverarity at 8:53 AM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

Here's the livestream of the current Obama press conference (joint with Singapore's Prime Minister). You can go back on the stream to listen to his words on Trump, around 25 minutes in.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:54 AM on August 2, 2016

Can mythbusters like Snopes.com keep up in a post-truth era?
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 8:54 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

"A few months ago I told the American people I did not trade arms for hostages. My heart and my best intentions still tell me that's true, but the facts and the evidence tell me it is not." Trump has just decided he doesn't need the clause at the end there.
posted by letourneau at 8:56 AM on August 2, 2016 [10 favorites]

PASSING THE MIC - Diary of a Bus Ride to the 2016 DNC
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:57 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

OMG is THAT what David Mikkelson looks like? I thought he'd be older. (All hail the AFU expatiates!)
posted by maudlin at 8:57 AM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

Today's Wondermark has figured out Trump's job creation plan.
posted by palindromic at 8:59 AM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

He just made fun of a woman with a crying baby.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:03 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump, just now: "Let that baby cry. What a beautiful baby. So young, so beautiful, I love babies," etc

Two minutes later: "Get that baby out of here. I think she really believed me that I wanted that baby crying while I'm speaking"
posted by theodolite at 9:04 AM on August 2, 2016 [65 favorites]

Is this a Dead Zome homage?
posted by Artw at 9:05 AM on August 2, 2016 [9 favorites]

I've been watching the livestream in Virginia. Here's what Trump's said so far:

1) I am The Dude
2) No, really, I am the awesomest. I am the most amazing candidate who's ever run for office.
3) News media hate me, but I keep them in business; they all report on me - all lies - all the time
3) Hillary is a crook, a liar, and bad-tempered.
3a) She wants a flood of immigrants to ruin the nation. We know nothing about these people.
4) I am an amazing predictor of the future. I said Brexit would happen, and it did, and it's awesome. So you can believe me when I say Hillary wants to run America.
5) We need STRONG BORDERS to keep these horrible people out. Look how awful other countries are doing.
6) May I repeat - we know nothing about these people. Cops have confirmed this to me. They have fake paperwork.
7) SPLOZIONZ EVVYWARE! I remind you about movie theatres etc being blown up.
8) WE BE SMRT and keep those people out! Politically correct = stupid.

(missed a few minutes from boss phone call - don't think I'm going to worried about it)

9) Fuck NAFTA and other bundled agreements; trade agreements with every individual country! That way, we can cut them off if they screw up.

Anyone want to put money on whether he's going to say a single damn thing that he plans to actually do, rather than recounting Trumpist history and babbling about how much other people are screwing up?
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:06 AM on August 2, 2016 [9 favorites]

tivalasvegas: Look, I think we need to start looking past the horse race (that is, will Trump win or will Clinton win). That's not to say, of course, that we are complacent about turnout efforts and all the other things that need to happen between now and November. But we also need to focus in on what this candidacy and this imploding party are doing and will do to the social fabric of this country.

I also find this extremely concerning. Public and private citizens are saying stuff that cannot be unsaid: the racialized hate of the Trump campaign, questioning of the legitimacy of the electoral process, the religious prejudice displayed against Muslim, Jewish, and Seventh Day Adventist people, and on and on.

Even if the TP ticket loses in November, there's still probably a floor of around 30% of voters who will support it, even within the bluest of states. That is almost 1 out of every 3 voters. How does the fabric of civil society recover, when a likely non-trivial portion of up to 30-40% of the population abjectly refuse to recognize the legitimacy of those who disagree? Especially when the campaign has encouraged violence in an already heavily armed population.

I'm really at a loss here. We're already seeing an increase of Trump-inspired bullying in children. I suspect after the election, no matter the result, we'll be seeing a dramatic increase in violence against women (unless it's already been documented), as we have against Muslim people. Anti-hate campaigns in schools would be a start, but it is harder to use those to reach adults.

It takes so little time to wreck up the norms of civil political discourse and decades to knit them back together.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 9:07 AM on August 2, 2016 [29 favorites]

"I've already chosen eleven justices for the Supreme Court."
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:08 AM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

"I want to get as many as I can in the mold of Judge Scalia"
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:09 AM on August 2, 2016

ErisLordFreedom, he did just mention that he planned to appoint some supreme court justices at some point. Probably the only reason anybody with a complete cerebrum would vote for him. I muted him, finally. TPP is more interesting.
posted by Don Pepino at 9:09 AM on August 2, 2016

1/3 of all voters is not 1/3 of the population, so I guess... that's something?
posted by prefpara at 9:09 AM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Anyone want to put money on whether he's going to say a single damn thing that he plans to actually do, rather than recounting Trumpist history and babbling about how much other people are screwing up?

9 is sort of close to a policy, would be interested to hear some economists and lawyers on its likely impact.
posted by Artw at 9:09 AM on August 2, 2016

Oh, come on, really, did he say that? I had to turn it off.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:09 AM on August 2, 2016

Video of the baby crying incident.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:12 AM on August 2, 2016 [14 favorites]

"Screw NAFTA; let's have individual contracts with every country" and "I will choose a bunch of justices like Scalia" are indeed something like plans.

I'll grant that "I have a list of names of justices" counts as a real, solid, this-is-the-president's-job plan. (I have some doubts that he actually knows anything about the list, if it even exists.)

"We will make individual contracts with each country," aside from the delightful stupidity, only counts as a plan if he's already got draft agreements drawn up. Otherwise, it goes in the same bin as "we'll build a wall" or "we'll have strong borders" or ... wait, has he said anything else?
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:16 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

This is hopeful. I live in a historically white working class neighborhood that is seeing a recent, steady increase in the number of minority residents, and I have been talking to my neighbors as much as I can. In particular, the women I talk to seem relieved to talk to someone else who is opposed to Trump and/or for Clinton. I suspect they are hearing a lot about Trump from the men in their lives.

The value of talking politics: Discussions are better than obnoxious TV attack ads when it comes to getting votes:

The report found that, of those Pittsburgh and Cleveland-area working-class voters who had decided on a candidate, more than a third — 38 percent — were on board with Trump. The other Republican candidates combined attracted only 27 percent of the vote. Clinton had 22 percent, Sanders 12 percent.

Furthermore, the report found that there was a set segment of Trump voters, roughly 58 percent, who would support the reality television star no matter what — even if he abandoned or was ousted from the Republican Party and ran as an independent. But the rest of Trump’s voters were open to conversation and to new information. The report concluded:

Thoughtful conversations with trusted messengers can move voters away from right-wing populism to a different take on the issues. Providing them with an independent source to help them sort through the deluge of information through a unique communications channel — face-to-face engagement — is critical to that evolution.

posted by palindromic at 9:16 AM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

"I know free trade, I know fair trade, I know every form of trade ever thought up by man."
posted by diogenes at 9:17 AM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

I hate to ask but when people in this thread are using quotes e.g. Trump said "these words" are y'all paraphrasing, being sarcastic, or are these literally his words.

It's weird I have to ask but I just don't know with this guy.
posted by pointystick at 9:18 AM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

"Trump now says he's going to encourage some US companies to move abroad so he can impose 35% tariffs on them and collect revenue."
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:18 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

okay so he's objectively anti-baby now

surely this
posted by murphy slaw at 9:18 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

The quotes are literally his words.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:19 AM on August 2, 2016 [12 favorites]

"I've already chosen eleven justices for the Supreme Court."

Oh god, his first act would be to pack the court, and granted that he almost certainly would have a majority-Republican Senate who would ixnay the fillibuster within five minutes and ram those justices right through... shit:

EQUAL JUSTICE UNDER LAW*

*terms and conditions may apply
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:20 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

I am almost scared of how he will react to Obama's rebuke. I think he is going to have a complete meltdown.
posted by gatorae at 9:20 AM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

I mean, Trump is a terrible person, but plenty of people are going to be on his side about a crying baby.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:20 AM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

Johnny Wallflower, thanks; I was afraid of that :/
posted by pointystick at 9:20 AM on August 2, 2016

Okay, whoever had money on 'Trump comes out against babies, Apple pie' as the next, literally unbelievable, gaffe is so close to winning big.

I'm still holding out for the moment that he throws Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood under the ~~bus~~ trolley
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:21 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

He says Mexico could fix their problems, including the drug problem, "if they wanted to."
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:21 AM on August 2, 2016

"Trump: How is it that we can't build a wall, with Caterpillar tractors, if China built a longer wall 2,000 years ago?"
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:22 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

ACLU: 45,000 people have ordered the pocket Constitution on Amazon. More than 80,000 people have ordered a free copy from the ACLU.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:22 AM on August 2, 2016 [11 favorites]

Building the wall: "We're gonna use Caterpillar tractors, by the way. We're not gonna use Komatsu!"
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:22 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

(I have some doubts that he actually knows anything about the list, if it even exists.)

Oh, it exists: DONALD J. TRUMP RELEASES LIST OF POTENTIAL UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT JUSTICES, a ‘Conservative Goldmine’
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:24 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

this just in Caterpillar tractors promises to file for bankruptcy rather than let a Trump administration use them to build a race wall.

(\\)
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:24 AM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

I mean, Trump is a terrible person, but plenty of people are going to be on his side about a crying baby.

Speaking as someone with a strong aversion to babies: There's absolutely no excuse for mocking or shaming a mother (or father) for the baby's presence or existence. None. Not even in private, and certainly, absolutely not in public.

This is right up there with his awful response to the Khans, his insults toward McCain, and on and on. This dude is completely lacking in any sense of humanity at all.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:24 AM on August 2, 2016 [18 favorites]

When was the last time a sitting President spoke so bluntly about the opposing party's nominee? I thought the unwritten/unspoken policy was that Presidents remain somewhat neutral in their criticism of candidates and focus their remarks against the opposing party.
posted by zarq at 9:25 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Like as usual why even address the baby? His staff would have kicked them out if he said nothing, but he's like, its fine I love babies because he can't stop himself, then for the same reason GET THE BABY OUT I WAS KIDDING it's terrifying.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:26 AM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

I'm buying stock in Orville Redenbacher.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:26 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Speaking as someone with a strong aversion to babies: There's absolutely no excuse for mocking or shaming a mother (or father) for the baby's presence or existence. None. Not even in private, and certainly, absolutely not in public.

This is right up there with his awful response to the Khans, his insults toward McCain, and on and on. This dude is completely lacking in any sense of humanity at all.

This is true.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:26 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Another strong right on for the ACLU.

In this season of supporting what's important to you: slipping a few bucks to the ACLU in order to be a card carrying member is never a bad idea.
posted by Sublimity at 9:26 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

The Great Wall of China is not 2000 years old.
posted by wabbittwax at 9:26 AM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Ahh.

"Look what I found" [photo of someone holding a "Canadian for Trump sign]
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:26 AM on August 2, 2016

When was the last time we had a president popular enough at the end of their time to make a positive impact on the next election zarq? FDR?
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:27 AM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

"I love babies! How old is your baby? Get that baby out of here." is 80s comedian schtick.

I hate Trump as much as the next guy, but there are bigger fights.
posted by roll truck roll at 9:27 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

this just in Caterpillar tractors promises to file for bankruptcy rather than let a Trump administration use them to build a race wall.

Given Caterpillar's rather sordid history in Israel, what makes you think they'd be bothered with that here in the US?
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:27 AM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

"Trump: How is it that we can't build a wall, with Caterpillar tractors, if China built a longer wall 2,000 years ago?"

It took centuries to build and hundreds of thousands of people were worked to death building it and their bodies were dumped inside it, but whatever
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:27 AM on August 2, 2016 [30 favorites]

Building the wall: "We're gonna use Caterpillar tractors, by the way. We're not gonna use Komatsu!"

Yeah, wouldn't want to employ anyone building Komatsu equipment in Illinois, Tennessee, or North Carolina, amrite? List of Komatsu's US operations here.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:27 AM on August 2, 2016 [10 favorites]

This is the first time I've seen him speak. It's unreal how the audience eats up his Cult of Personality bullshit. I'm embarrassed for my county.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:29 AM on August 2, 2016 [11 favorites]

It took centuries to build and hundreds of thousands of people were worked to death building it

2 tiny thumbs up
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:29 AM on August 2, 2016 [10 favorites]

Right now Don Rickles is considering suing Trump for stealing his act.
posted by wabbittwax at 9:29 AM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Ahh. "Look what I found" [photo of someone holding a "Canadian for Trump sign]

even odds they're from etobicoke
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:30 AM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trump was just furious because he noticed the baby was brazenly holding a full sized spoon SEND TWEET
posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:30 AM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

NYT: Obama says Republicans should withdraw support for Trump.

“The question they have to ask themselves is: If you are repeatedly having to say in very strong terms that what he has said is unacceptable, why are you still endorsing him?” Mr. Obama said at a news conference at the White House.

...So Ryan, McConnell et al. are really damned if they do and damned if they don't. If they disavow Trump now, they look like they are following President Obama (whom they've demonized for years). If they don't, they are stuck with Trump's stench for the indefinite future.

At this point, any disavowal will ring super hollow, so I don't think they will.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 9:31 AM on August 2, 2016 [21 favorites]

Yeah, wouldn't want to employ anyone building Komatsu equipment in Illinois, Tennessee, or North Carolina, amrite? List of Komatsu's US operations here.

BUT THEY SOUND SO FOREIGN!
posted by Talez at 9:32 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm also embarrassed for my country. I've been outside the US for the past month or so, and people bring up Trump constantly. I want to say he's going to lose, no one likes him, but it's obvious he enjoys a lot of support which is just impossible to defend.
posted by cell divide at 9:32 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

He's done. Walking out to "You Can't Always Get What You Want." Christ, what an asshole.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:33 AM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

It took centuries to build and hundreds of thousands of people were worked to death building it and their bodies were dumped inside it, but whatever

You don't have to sweeten the pot for Trump
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 9:34 AM on August 2, 2016 [10 favorites]

Republican congressman becomes first to endorse Hillary Clinton for president

Richard Hanna, a representative from New York, said Trump is ‘deeply flawed in endless ways’ while Clinton has advocated for many causes he also supports
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:37 AM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

CNN is now showing a Trump rally where he's talking about his amazing new golf courses.

wtf CNN.
posted by modernnomad at 9:38 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

This is why Cokie Roberts was wrong about the Dems saving their ad buy money. If you're not a news junkie, it's easy to never see this guy in action and not actually believe he is this much of an unhinged asshole. Those ads just need to be a clips show of his greatest hits, on repeat. I live in PA, the ads are going to be thick on the ground here, and I'm happy to take one for the team by sitting through them if it means that people who haven't been paying attention get the message.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:39 AM on August 2, 2016 [14 favorites]

When was the last time we had a president popular enough at the end of their time to make a positive impact on the next election zarq? FDR?

Clinton, Reagan and Eisenhower?
posted by zarq at 9:41 AM on August 2, 2016

Richard Hanna, a representative from New York, said Trump is ‘deeply flawed in endless ways’ while Clinton has advocated for many causes he also supports

This is the third time it's been posted in this thread alone. Ctrl-F people.

Also, Richard Hanna is a Rockefeller Republican from New York retiring at the end this term. He has no skin in the game and the only thing that's surprising is that it took him this long.
posted by Talez at 9:42 AM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

Isis joins Donald Trump in denouncing Khizr Khan
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 9:43 AM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

Well, the crying baby thing made CNN.com: Trump boots crying baby from rally
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 9:44 AM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Like most childless people I have issues with crying babies (which internal attitudes I stifle, I swear, and do not express), but I am positive this baby episode is not going to go down well at all with a whole of parents.
posted by bearwife at 9:46 AM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

the thing was actually that Trump fuckin punked that baby's mom but good try CNN
posted by theodolite at 9:47 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

I am endlessly amused that his campaign logo is

TRUMP (huuuge)
PENCE
Make America Great Again (tiny text, unreadable in normal view in browser)
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 9:47 AM on August 2, 2016

But he didn't KICK the baby, so he's still okay.
posted by yhbc at 9:49 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

he'll probably just come back with some variation of 'of course I love babies, look at all the children I raised' etc etc.

"I mean, I won’t do anything to take care of them. I’ll supply funds and she’ll take care of the kids. It’s not like I’m gonna be walking the kids down Central Park." -- Trump to Howard Stern, 2005.

If it has any deeper meaning, it's to say "yes, you can be a dick about crying babies."
posted by holgate at 9:49 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

THE FIRE MARSHAL IS SENDING CRYING ISIS BABIES IN HERE
posted by zombieflanders at 9:49 AM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

I keep thinking of Nixon on Futurama taking a lie detector test about whether or not he'd steal candy from a baby and finally coming out with, "At any rate, I certainly wouldn't harm the child," at which the lie detector machine just goes off.
posted by infinitywaltz at 9:52 AM on August 2, 2016 [23 favorites]

Wow this is a lot more horrifying that the baby comment:

Sopan Deb Verified account
‏@SopanDeb

A little kid is yelling "Take the bitch down!" when Trump mentions Hillary Clinton. A little kid. No more than 10, I would say.

posted by Potomac Avenue at 9:54 AM on August 2, 2016 [16 favorites]

When was the last time we had a president popular enough at the end of their time to make a positive impact on the next election zarq? FDR?

Clinton, Reagan and Eisenhower?

Yes, but none of them played a significant role in the subsequent elections; Clinton's polling was ok but he mostly sat the 2000 campaign out, Reagan supported Bush but didn't really campaign, and Eisenhower didn't really care for Nixon—when asked what contributions Nixon had made to the Eisenhower administrations, the president famously answered "If you give me a few weeks, I may be able to think of something." Obama's popularity and ability to stump for his party's nominee is without modern precedent.
posted by donatella at 9:54 AM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

TBH that's sort of my inner reaction to crying babies:
*aw what's the matter sweet child*
*all right enough sweet Jesus*

But then I see running for public office as a death march I would never entertain, i.e., why the fuck would you run for president if you can't stand babies
posted by angrycat at 9:54 AM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

The Guardian's Ben Jacobs: 'The adult escorting boy who yelled "take the bitch down" about Hillary Clinton said the child learned the language in "Democratic schools"'
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 9:55 AM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

The crib just got ten feet taller. --@CAAttorney1
posted by zachlipton at 9:55 AM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

He's only really talking to people who are at least fifty years old who remember the mills. They've have been gone from Western PA for thirty-five years by now and there's not even places left to build mills.

But it's like middleclasstool was saying above: even if you personally haven't experienced a thing, the myth of the thing lingers for as long as there are tellers of the myth and people who love them. Stories are one of the most powerful tools we as humans have had, and America-as-myth is a country that many, many people inhabit.

He's not talking to just people who remember the mills. He's talking to thirty year old men that are struggling to find a solid job, still don't have a wife, and in their darkest hours, remember their grandfather talking about how he just showed up one day and got a job at the factory and a year later met a pretty girl and married her and bought her a house and they had five children and they all grew up and had great families.

He's saying - you didn't fail, America failed you. But when you inhabit country-as-myth, you all know, we all know from history, there's only one way for a myth-country to fail - people sabotaging from the inside.

This is why people like me get hysterical, and can't stop from Godwining stuff, because this election is all about responses post-war-recession, with the GOP nominee talking about how ~~Germany~~ America is only failing because of the ~~Jews~~ Muslims, but ~~Hitler~~ Trump is going to ~~bring glory to the nation~~ Make America Great Again.

I know I'm breaking The Rules Of The Internet, but this time I think it's really important to, looking at Trump, take a look at Hitler. Hitler didn't just come in on a wave and get elected. Hitler became the leader of a party of angry, resentful men, failed at a coup, was jailed and then released, and spent the next ten years building up his party by winning seats in the Reichstag.

I want to believe that we're not fucked, but I'm seriously scared. I'm scared that even if he loses, he's perfectly capable of building upon the resentment to start seeding Congress with his faithful. I'm scared that that's why the GOP leadership aren't stopping him. I'm just scared, every day, of what our country may be becoming.
posted by corb at 9:58 AM on August 2, 2016 [110 favorites]

Attempts to turn the tide by showing that Trump is a fraud amounts to bringing facts to an emotion fight.

Trump is like the bully in an 80s teen movie. (Well, if that bully had a Hitler mustache.) To be knocked off his perch, he must be humiliated. His cowardice must be highlighted. He must be shown to be a loser, despite his bluster. At the first debate I want to see Clinton look Trump in the eye and say, "You won't release your taxes because you're not actually a billionaire. You didn't serve in Vietnam because you're a coward."
posted by Lyme Drop at 9:58 AM on August 2, 2016 [22 favorites]

"Oh, it exists: DONALD J. TRUMP RELEASES LIST OF POTENTIAL UNITED STATES SUPREME COURT JUSTICES, a ‘Conservative Goldmine’"

Huh, no Harriet Miers? Lame.
posted by klarck at 9:59 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Obama's popularity and ability to stump for his party's nominee is without modern precedent.

I was thinking about this after his DNC speech -- Obama may well be the first President in a long damn time to be as closely and publicly allied with his successor, and be willing and able to remain a highly visible public figure. The model has long been that a former President shuts up during his successor's term, but that model wasn't based on handing it over to someone you like and agree with.
posted by Etrigan at 10:02 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

>This evangelical, anti-choice woman is voting for Hillary. She makes an outstanding (if extremely long) case for the reasons why. I'm deeply impressed.

Another entry along those lines that also links to the piece above, from progressive evangelical pro-life Christian blogger and author Rachel Held Evans: So you’re thinking of voting for a pro-choice candidate...

Creating a culture of life isn’t just about standing in a picket line with a “Choose Life” sign. It’s about seriously addressing the problem of income inequality in this country so that no woman has to choose between getting an abortion or raising her child in poverty. It means celebrating parenthood by making America the most generous country in the developed world when it comes to maternity and paternity leave, not the least generous, and it means working together on efforts to reduce the costs of food, diapers, childcare, pediatrician visits, college tuition, adoption, and resources for special needs children.

Like her or not, agree with her or not, Hillary Clinton has devoted much of her life to tacking these very issues, and she’s made them a centerpiece of her campaign.

posted by palindromic at 10:02 AM on August 2, 2016 [42 favorites]

Honest question: if Hillary wins, what's to keep McConnell et al. from refusing to open supreme court justice confirmation hearings indefinitely? What if they just plug their ears and act like whiney pissbabies about it forever?
posted by lovecrafty at 10:04 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Huh, no Harriet Miers? Lame.

I went back and reviewed the Harriet Miers debacle because it's likely a good precedent for any Trump nominee. I felt bad for her at the time, but it was a truly incredible nomination of an utterly unqualified candidate. Emphasis mine:

On October 3, 2005, Bush nominated Miers to serve as an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, saying, "Harriet Miers will be the type of judge I said I would nominate: a good conservative judge."[24] Miers' nomination was criticized by people of various political views, for the fact that she had never served as a judge at any level, her perceived lack of intellectual rigor, her close personal ties to Bush, and her lack of a clear record on issues likely to be encountered as a Supreme Court Justice. Many notable conservatives vigorously criticized her nomination, and numerous conservative groups normally considered part of Bush's political base planned to mount an organized opposition campaign.

Miers met with the Senate Judiciary Committee after her nomination and in those meetings she was ill-prepared and uninformed on the law.[25] Senator Tom Coburn told her privately that she "flunked" and "[was] going to have to say something next time."[25] Miers had difficulty expressing her views and explaining basic constitutional law concepts.[26] Miers had no experience in constitutional law, and did not have extensive litigation experience; at her Texas law firm, she had been more of a manager.[27] In addition, Miers had rarely handled appeals and did not understand the complicated constitutional questions senators asked of her.[27] To White House lawyers, Miers was "less an attorney than a law firm manager and bar association president."[28]

In an unprecedented move, Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter and ranking Democrat Patrick Leahy also requested that Miers re-do some of her answers to the questionnaire submitted to her by the Committee, noting that her responses were "inadequate", "insufficient", and "insulting" because she failed or refused to adequately answer various questions with acceptable accuracy or with sufficient detail.[29] Miers also privately expressed a belief in the right to privacy to the pro-choice Arlen Specter, only to later deny that she had communicated that position.[30] Her answers also included an error on constitutional law where she mentioned an explicit constitutional right for proportional representation; though many court rulings have found that legislative and other districts of unequal population violate the equal protection clause, the right to proportional districts is not explicitly mentioned in the United States Constitution.[31]

posted by Existential Dread at 10:05 AM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

The anti-choice for Hillary pieces are getting a lot of traction on the Facebook walls of some more-ecumenically-friended-than-me friends. It does seem to be really resonating with young, Evangelical women.
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:06 AM on August 2, 2016 [22 favorites]

The adult escorting boy

Oh man what Twitter does to language.
posted by dis_integration at 10:06 AM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

Trump is like the bully in an 80s teen movie.

You know Biff Tannen from Back to the Future was modeled on Trump, right?
posted by Special Agent Dale Cooper at 10:07 AM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

A little kid is yelling "Take the bitch down!" when Trump mentions Hillary Clinton. A little kid. No more than 10, I would say.

I literally, involuntarily dropped my jaw and covered my mouth in horror for the first time in this whole sordid election cycle. Fuck that guy for what he's doing to our children.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:07 AM on August 2, 2016 [28 favorites]

At this point, any disavowal will ring super hollow, so I don't think they will.

So far, the typical reaction is for Republicans to do the opposite of whatever Obama suggests, so maybe he's trying to get them to double-down in support for Trump.
posted by drezdn at 10:07 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

It's unreal how the audience eats up his Cult of Personality bullshit. I'm embarrassed for my county.

Remember how popular South Park was? Trump is the South Park presidential candidate. He appeals to the same "stick it to the liberals and Hollywood elite" emotions.
posted by happyroach at 10:07 AM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

if Hillary wins, what's to keep McConnell et al. from refusing to open supreme court justice confirmation hearings indefinitely?

Democratic control of the Senate.
posted by bearwife at 10:08 AM on August 2, 2016 [35 favorites]

> "When was the last time we had a president popular enough at the end of their time to make a positive impact on the next election zarq? FDR?"

I actually thought FDR seemed rather quiet during Truman's campaign.
posted by kyrademon at 10:09 AM on August 2, 2016 [47 favorites]

ok but like - hear me out - what if we made mexican babies build the wall? that could work i bet
posted by Tevin at 10:13 AM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

A wall of babies.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:15 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

or a wall of babies
posted by angrycat at 10:16 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

A little kid is yelling "Take the bitch down!" when Trump mentions Hillary Clinton. A little kid. No more than 10, I would say.

I literally, involuntarily dropped my jaw and covered my mouth in horror for the first time in this whole sordid election cycle. Fuck that guy for what he's doing to our children.

Saw a FB post from a mom disgusted that an elderly woman spat on her 11-year-old son for wearing a Trump hat. My first reaction was to share her disgust, but that was followed quickly by "What kind of parent lets an 11-year-old out in public in a Trump hat?"
posted by Lyme Drop at 10:17 AM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

that's dynamite somebody tweet mr trump i think we've cracked this thing wide open
posted by Tevin at 10:17 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

I literally, involuntarily dropped my jaw and covered my mouth in horror for the first time in this whole sordid election cycle. Fuck that guy for what he's doing to our children.

We've talked several times in these threads about the effect this is having on kids in school: racist bullying, children terrified their families will be deported (even if they're all citizens).

I only took on a couple dozen substitute teaching gigs this past school year in Seattle, all of them at the high school level. Only once did the election come up with any contention. That was because someone mildly brought up Trump, and then another student (white male) immediately started angrily shouting that supporting Trump didn't make a person racist.

It all speaks to the horrible damage Trump is doing to this country even if he loses. Even if he goes down in a landslide. This still absolutely sucks for a lot of people.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:17 AM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

odinsdream: Trump: "I won by a landslide, and that's with 17 people. People keep forgetting. Ronald Reagan, we loved."

odinsdream: Trump: "You learn to live...good... you learn to stay healthy ... by having a good mind... just turn it off."

The loop of two is complete. In January, Sarah Palin’s Bizarre, Rambling Speech Was the Perfect Donald Trump Endorsement, which Slate called post-apocalyptic poetry. Then there was her endorsement speech in April, which resulted in so many great quotes, but no audience support.

Palin has gotten to Trump, and he's into post-apocalyptic poetry. It's going to be an interesting few months.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:17 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Saw a FB post from a mom disgusted that a elderly woman spat on her 11-year-old son for wearing a Trump hat. My first reaction was to share her disgust, but that was followed quickly by "What kind of parent lets an 11-year-old out in public in a Trump hat?"

This did not happen.
posted by dis_integration at 10:19 AM on August 2, 2016 [18 favorites]

On this morning's Democracy Now! broadcast (alt link) they played a brief clip of Khizr and Ghazala Khan being interviewed a few years ago for the documentary Section 60 and talked with the filmmaker Jon Alpert. ("Section 60" being the name of the region of Arlington National Cemetery where military personnel from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are interred.)
posted by XMLicious at 10:19 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

This did not happen.

Probably the same elderly woman who carved that backwards "B" into that girl's face during the 2008 election.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 10:20 AM on August 2, 2016 [13 favorites]

A little kid is yelling "Take the bitch down!" when Trump mentions Hillary Clinton. A little kid. No more than 10, I would say.

I literally, involuntarily dropped my jaw and covered my mouth in horror for the first time in this whole sordid election cycle. Fuck that guy for what he's doing to our children.

Sad truth: Trump is only part of the problem in this case. The kid's parents and other authority figures in his life are just as much, if not a whole lot more, involved with what he says and does at this point in his life. He's probably too young to become a political junkie, soaking up Trump without others around him doing it first and just as loudly.

Parents and adults who are around kids: watch what you say, they're little sponges. They look to you and mimic you. They are the true mirrors of who you are.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:21 AM on August 2, 2016 [10 favorites]

if Hillary wins, what's to keep McConnell et al. from refusing to open supreme court justice confirmation hearings indefinitely?

The current Senate is 54/46 in the Republican's favour. The VP and four more Democratic senators between them would give the Democrats control of the Senate (and make Sanders the ranking majority member of the Senate Budget Committee). There are quite a handful of unsafe seats for the Republicans to defend and yesterday (but not today) Sam Wang had the median outcome as 50 Democratic senators.
posted by Francis at 10:23 AM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

Who would have thought the Romney Death Rally was actually going to, in retrospect, be a sunny, optimistic fantasy about the future of the GOP?
posted by Cookiebastard at 10:24 AM on August 2, 2016 [9 favorites]

mandolin conspiracy: The Guardian's Ben Jacobs: 'The adult escorting boy who yelled "take the bitch down" about Hillary Clinton said the child learned the language in "Democratic schools"'

And what does this even mean? What is a Democratic school? Do you mean a school where "the liberal agenda" is shoved down the throats of innocent youth? Do you mean there's some other schooling option we should pursue for the youth? Is this an issue with the lack of religion in the classroom?

Anyway, parents and guardians are part of the kid's learning environment, too. But it's easier to blame the school when a kid doesn't behave as you wish him or her to.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:25 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Trumps Have No Idea How Sexual Harassment Works
posted by Artw at 10:25 AM on August 2, 2016 [11 favorites]

i wonder if trump's reaction to the obama press conference statements will be to go full-blown birther again?

not sure how that will play in 2016
posted by murphy slaw at 10:25 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

The cashier at Speedway saw my "I VOTED" sticker and asked who I voted for. I chuckled and shook my head, and she said "As long as it wasn't Hillary." I just stared at her and sighed.
posted by Etrigan at 10:27 AM on August 2, 2016 [14 favorites]

What is a Democratic school?

Usually these types say "government school" in a generally successful attempt to obscure the fact that universal public education is one of the great achievements of American society, or at least it was.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:27 AM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

New official statement out from the Trump campaign. Apparently, "Obama-Clinton" are responsible for the "worst recovery since the Great Depression," whatever the fuck that means.
posted by stolyarova at 10:27 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

This did not happen.

Oh, it totally did. I saw her in line at the grocery store, paying for a whole bunch of steaks and lobsters with a big wad of food stamps. She went out to the parking lot, spit on that poor little Trump boy, and got in her new Cadillac. She went and picked up her husband, who was on the side of the road with a cardboard sign that said "Homeless Vet-Will Work For Food" and they drove off to their mansion.
posted by Cookiebastard at 10:29 AM on August 2, 2016 [57 favorites]

And that old lady's name? Albert Einstein.
posted by stolyarova at 10:30 AM on August 2, 2016 [36 favorites]

And now you know... The rest of the story.
posted by drezdn at 10:32 AM on August 2, 2016 [15 favorites]

How does the fabric of civil society recover, when a likely non-trivial portion of up to 30-40% of the population abjectly refuse to recognize the legitimacy of those who disagree?

While I understand this fear, the U.S. has certainly grown past, corrected, repaired, etc. far greater rending to the fabric of civil society than a bunch of angry idiots screaming TRUUUUMP!!!! (even if some of those idiots have guns). To me, this reads more like sunlight finally shining into the dark, gross parts of our society that have continued to linger and fester long after the rest of us got the memos about equality and fairness and decency and all that liberal humanist stuff.

And sunlight really is the best disinfectant. Until the white supremacists and xenophobes and all of the other folks hollering in fear really come out and holler in front of the rest of us--or at us--we have no opportunity for engagement or rebuttal. Secret racism is difficult to confront, but outright demands to deport millions of people sort of put a focus on the conversation and make the sides really clear. While I dearly hope that it's not an ugly one, it does feel to me like the U.S. is in a reckoning that's been coming since at least mid-20th-century: social liberal ideals of a pluralistic, egalitarian society are starting to actually happen, and we're seeing a rump of our population throw a temper tantrum because this isn't the future they want.*

We will engage with them as we need to, and have to, and I hope it's all verbally and that we can figure out how to be friends and neighbors afterward, but even if it gets ugly it seems to be something that needs to happen. I am not scared because I continue to trust in the basic decency of most people. If I cannot reach my neighbor, I will instead speak to their children, who are seeing the anger and fear and need other models for how to feel about the world. At the end of the day, the vast majority of us want a peaceful, happy life, free to pursue what we can as we're able, and if that's the national conversation we must have--what behavior is unacceptable? what ideas are beyond the pale? what speech is too rancid and toxic to abide?--then, OK, let's have it. I am confident that egalitarian perspectives will be most persuasive, that decency and respect do still matter, and that most people are actually, at heart, kind and peaceful. (There are well over seven billion of us on this rock, and the world isn't on fire. QED?)

I also remain reasonably confident in my prediction from a couple of months ago: Trump will not be the R name on the ballot in November. I just don't see how he makes it three more months without doing something truly disqualifying, something coming to light, or just the cumulative inertia of all of his stupid and angry finally swallowing him up. I was scared for a little while, especially seeing the vitriol and anger from so many supporters, but now I'm kind of over it all, and ready for the adults to tell the temper-tantrum-having toddler that it's time to stop and for Time Out, and that's what's starting to happen. Endorsements will start to be revoked, Rs will start endorsing Hillary, and the Republican party will realize that they have to cut this asshole loose.

The rest of us have to call out hatred and venality every single time we hear it expressed around us, online or in person. Of all people, I learned from an Ayn Rand essay that two of the most powerful words in the English language are "I disagree." You don't even have to defend or explain that statement, it is powerful simply to stop a bully from being unchallenged by the silent consensus of fear. Saying no, I won't, you're wrong, that's hateful, this is unacceptable, I disagree: all empower other decent people to be more confident that we are not alone, that the world really isn't falling apart, and that--should we stand--we will not stand alone.

*- I also maintain that, because so many of us watched live mass murder on TV on 9/11--along with uncensored replays of the most gruesome and graphic moments for the week following before we realized that probably wasn't the best idea--we collectively have been suffering from some version of unacknowledged PTSD, and have needed some emotional nurturing as a society that we have received far too little of. I suspect this is the nuclear core fueling much of the fear and hate we see in Trump supporters today. It's also why I love that the DNC last week presented such a hopeful, joyful vision of plurality and peaceful diversity and finally, openly asserting that a rising tide lifts all boats: it's exactly what we need. The emotional intelligence of Clinton's campaign (and the Democratic party as a result) is really fantastic right now.
posted by LooseFilter at 10:33 AM on August 2, 2016 [46 favorites]

And then Jesus gave me $20.

(This is how you end a story that doesn't have the same impact as you thought it would, but I like the lady Albert Einstein option, too)
posted by filthy light thief at 10:34 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

But it's easier to blame the school when a kid doesn't behave as you wish him or her to.

The type of person who supports Trump is exactly the sort of parent who would refuse to take any responsibility for their kid. Or responsibility for much of anything. That's what Trump taps into with his scapegoating and blaming other people for everything under the sun. People who feel that things were done to them. It's never their fault. Nothing is ever the result of their own actions. It's always the world being unfairly against them. I've seen it a million times.
posted by downtohisturtles at 10:34 AM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

Does trump have a "Big Book of Secret Billionaire Bets" that he stole from an actual Billionaire, and is he currently going line by line on the section of "Boners to Pull If You Ever Run for Public Office!" Insulting a gold star family, insulting the fire department, insulting a baby... Does Sheldon Adelson keep paying out as he hits point by point?
posted by codacorolla at 10:35 AM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

I was waiting in the barber shop earlier today and the local news was on the tvs, talking about the Trump rally in Ashburn that was about to start. In case you were wondering - yep, there was a bit about the campaign staff saying there were people who wanted to get in but the fire marshalls weren't letting any more folks in. This is apparently going to be a regular part of their shtick.
posted by phearlez at 10:36 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

And then Jesus gave me $20.

(This is how you end a story that doesn't have the same impact as you thought it would, but I like the lady Albert Einstein option, too)

Maybe Marine Todd beats the little old lady up
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:36 AM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

She went and picked up her husband,

Oh, no. They wouldn't be married.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 10:37 AM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

"worst recovery since the Great Depression,"

Considering it was the worse recession since the Great Depression, not surprising that it took longer than other smaller recessions.
posted by chris24 at 10:38 AM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

And then Jesus gave me $20.

SAIT?
posted by OmieWise at 10:38 AM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

I also maintain that, because so many of us watched live mass murder on TV on 9/11--along with uncensored replays of the most gruesome and graphic moments for the week following before we realized that probably wasn't the best idea

When exactly was this realization you think happened? I think it finally stopped but for at least a decade one of the networks was rebroadcasting the day-of news coverage in real time on every anniversary.
posted by phearlez at 10:38 AM on August 2, 2016

Re: kids v. Trump. If itmmakes anyone feel better, Trump and the racist nonsense about Hispanics has made my teenager decide to focus his studies towards law, specifically civil rights and immigration law. He's grown up in schools where Spanish is spoken commonly, and he's angry that a candidate is attacking his friends and their families. For what it's worth, this election season is teaching valuable lessons to the future, and not all of the lessons are bad.
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 10:38 AM on August 2, 2016 [47 favorites]

Excommunicated Cardinal: How does the fabric of civil society recover, when a likely non-trivial portion of up to 30-40% of the population abjectly refuse to recognize the legitimacy of those who disagree? Especially when the campaign has encouraged violence in an already heavily armed population.

This is where Hilary's focus on listening is so wonderful. And it's honestly refreshing seeing that as a focus of her campaign, mentioned by so many people at the DNC.

Sit down, listen to people, then work to make things change. Some things can be fixed in a day, some in a decade, and some things seem unfixable, but start working to that goal of fixing things from a place of understanding the other person.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:39 AM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

"worst recovery since the Great Depression,"

It's also not true. This recovery has now surpassed the recovery from the 2001 recession under Bush.
posted by chris24 at 10:41 AM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

I mean it's like saying "THIS IS THE WORST PIZZA I'VE HAD SINCE ALMOST STARVING TO DEATH IN 2008"
posted by stolyarova at 10:42 AM on August 2, 2016 [9 favorites]

LooseFilter: Trump will not be the R name on the ballot in November. I just don't see how he makes it three more months without doing something truly disqualifying, something coming to light, or just the cumulative inertia of all of his stupid and angry finally swallowing him up.

I love your optimism. Please do not read The Plot Against America (alt. history fiction, in which Franklin Delano Roosevelt is defeated in the presidential election of 1940 by Charles Lindbergh, and the isolationist ideas espoused by Lindbergh and the America First Committee become the direction for the nation).
posted by filthy light thief at 10:43 AM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

A little kid is yelling "Take the bitch down!" when Trump mentions Hillary Clinton. A little kid. No more than 10, I would say.

Oh fuck--that poor, poor kid. I really feel for him, and I hope to hell his parents haven't damaged him permanently.
posted by dersins at 10:44 AM on August 2, 2016

I'm really at a loss here. We're already seeing an increase of Trump-inspired bullying in children. I suspect after the election, no matter the result, we'll be seeing a dramatic increase in violence against women (unless it's already been documented), as we have against Muslim people. Anti-hate campaigns in schools would be a start, but it is harder to use those to reach adults.

It takes so little time to wreck up the norms of civil political discourse and decades to knit them back together.

We're looking at conditions of rapid economic dislocation and racial/cultural change that pose a deep-seated perceived threat to many white working class Americans' sense of political identity. This has happened before and those previous responses can provide clues, can inform our thinking about what is happening and what is likely to happen in the next three months and post-election (assuming a Hillary win -- if Trump wins all bets are off).

Reconstruction is the most radical example, of course: in the period between 1861 and 1871 the South went from relatively autonomous and fully white-controlled states to occupied territory under martial law, with large numbers of former Confederates disenfranchised. The response was a low-level insurgency aimed at intimidating black voters and migrants from the North, particularly around elections. White nationalists next put political pressure on the federal government to weaken the restrictions on voting (of former rebels) until they were meaningless and then through the ongoing insurgent violence were able to retake state governments and begin to implement a neo-feudalist society.

While I understand this fear, the U.S. has certainly grown past, corrected, repaired, etc. far greater rending to the fabric of civil society than a bunch of angry idiots screaming TRUUUUMP!!!! (even if some of those idiots have guns). To me, this reads more like sunlight finally shining into the dark, gross parts of our society that have continued to linger and fester long after the rest of us got the memos about equality and fairness and decency and all that liberal humanist stuff.

Yes; this is sunlight that helps us to see. But on its own it cannot heal. Only justice and reconciliation will do that.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:44 AM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

I wonder if Obama's remarks are meant to be the goad to a full-on Trump meltdown. Like, has someone on the Dem side gone all psy ops on this and decided, "Yes. Now is the time. Pile on in sufficient numbers and from sufficient directions (plummeting polls! veterans' bereaved families! fellow billionaires! fellow Republicans! media finally catching on!), and it will be the perfect time. When President Barack Obama says 'he's not fit for public office,' Trump will entirely lose his shit and prove exactly why it's true."
posted by yasaman at 10:44 AM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

Please do not read The Plot Against America

Too late. I re-read it a couple of months ago because it seemed like things were headed that way.

Not...conducive to an optimistic outlook on the current situation.
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 10:45 AM on August 2, 2016

At the first debate I want to see Clinton look Trump in the eye and say, "You won't release your taxes because you're not actually a billionaire. You didn't serve in Vietnam because you're a coward."

You won't release your taxes because you're not actually a billionaire. You didn't serve in Vietnam because you're a coward. You attacked a Gold Star family because you don't know what sacrifice means. You say that prisoners of war are cowards because you've never had to struggle. You mock women as pigs and dogs because you don't view us as human. You brag about saying "You're fired" because you've never had to worry about putting food on the table. You've spent years conning people all over this country out of money, time, and honest labor. You'd ban a religion and build a wall because you don't understand that what makes this country great is the centuries worth of people - of every race, every religion, every gender - who dream for years about the promise of this country and work their fingers to the bone to get here and make a better life for their families. And the only reason you think you have a prayer of winning this race is because you consistently underestimate the intelligence, love of country, and kindness of the American people. You may not love this country and you may not love your fellow Americans, but we do. And that's why you will lose.

(Like a dog.)
posted by sallybrown at 10:45 AM on August 2, 2016 [108 favorites]

I don't get that "like a dog" thing. Dogs don't understand being fired. Fired like a dog? What?
posted by stolyarova at 10:47 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

I wonder if Obama's remarks are meant to be the goad to a full-on Trump meltdown.

I thought that as soon as I heard them. Having POTUS say it helps to split Trumps time and attention. One thing that I find striking about the Khan attacks is that Trump should be fucking campaigning. Ed Rogers said in a blurb in the Post today something like, "Trump hasn't done a single thing since the convention to appeal to anyone who wasn't already going to vote for him."
posted by OmieWise at 10:48 AM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

You didn't serve in Vietnam because you're a coward.

Ooooh man this is plainly true, but also hugely problematic. A lot of people who avoided Vietnam did so for damn good reasons that had nothing to do with cowardice. I don't think for a second Trump is one of them -- although we could probably add a few other ugly reasons. But that attack will easily be taken as an attack against everyone who avoided Vietnam, and that list includes a whole lot of reasonable, moral people.

Aside from that: Clinton didn't serve in Vietnam or any other war, either. She should not make this sort of attack. John Kerry could do it, Tammy Duckworth could do it, John McCain could do it if he dug his spine out of his closet, etc. But that attack coming out of Clinton's mouth will backfire horribly, no matter how obviously accurate it is as a statement.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:49 AM on August 2, 2016 [30 favorites]

I've been flipping over to Redstate: Trump’s Economic Stimulus Plan: Spend Massive Amounts Of Money On Shovel Ready Jobs. - "I don't know, it seems to me that the objection to Obama's stimulus plan was not that the construction projects it funded would not be completed on time or under budget but rather that the whole thing was a massive increase to deficit spending that was not a sustainable way to fix America's economy, but since Trump's supporters now (apparently) support an exactly equivalent plan with a slightly smaller price tag, that does lend credence to the idea that some people opposed Obama for reasons that had nothing at all to do with his policies."
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:51 AM on August 2, 2016 [30 favorites]

Consensus is that Trump doesn't know what a dog is. Bad Things That Happen to Dogs, According to Donald Trump
posted by zachlipton at 10:51 AM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

I find it hard to even criticize anyone who did avoid Vietnam out of cowardice. We had no business being there.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:51 AM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

You didn't serve in Vietnam because you're a coward.

I'm not a coward, I'm very brave, braver than you can understand, lots of people say this. I don't have to do this, running for president is very brave, very brave.
posted by dis_integration at 10:52 AM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

Maybe a Baxter-type situation?
posted by stolyarova at 10:53 AM on August 2, 2016

I wonder if Obama's remarks are meant to be the goad to a full-on Trump meltdown.

Maybe, but I think it's more likely that they are intended at face value: an attempt to remind other Republicans that they are Americans and public servants first, and that loyalty should be greater than their loyalty to party, and if the elected leader of their party is actively dismantling the norms of American civil life, they have a duty to disavow not just the individual things he says and does, but him and his leadership. I think Obama still believes that the majority of the Republicans still have that patriotic sense of civic duty within them, even if they've been so blinded by partisanship that they've forgotten it.
posted by biogeo at 10:53 AM on August 2, 2016 [20 favorites]

I think it can be two things.
posted by infinitywaltz at 10:54 AM on August 2, 2016 [17 favorites]

I'm wondering if there's a some dark formative experience buried in Trump's past where his father "fired" his beloved pet yorkie or something, which would explain the hair (a sublimated tribute), his anger and mistrust toward the world, and the phrase itself.

My guess is it ties in somehow with his phobia of germs. He can't think of anything more pathetic and horrific than a slavering, mud-covered puppy* - it's like, the lowest of the low to him.

*you can ship them all to my house.
posted by sallybrown at 10:57 AM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

"Trump hasn't done a single thing since the convention to appeal to anyone who wasn't already going to vote for him."

Donald Trump is not running for President of the United States, although he sincerely believes that he is. He is running for whatever will garner him the most attention and, ideally, adulation.

He has stumbled upon a secret: there are millions of Americans who will consider you a quasi-divinity if you will only be that famous person who says the bigoted things they long to hear. It's -- not catnip. It's the horrifying frenzy of a full-on artificially-induced dopamine rush that's flooded his mind to the point of no return.

There's been speculation that he has a chemical addiction of some sort. I don't know about that but I do know that he has become addicted to the spotlight, utterly consumed by it, unable to stop even if he wanted to. His wealth and his shamelessness have carried him much further and deeper into this addiction than most similarly-afflicted persons. At every stage he has been surrounded by more and more adoring sycophants.

He doesn't care about 270 electoral votes. What he cannot live without, now, is the full devotion of as large a group as he can find. He has found that group, and he thought he was satisfied ("we're having so much fun! Are you having fun? I'm having fun") but shit is starting to hit the fan. The only question is how he breaks, when he breaks, and what he breaks along with himself.
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:58 AM on August 2, 2016 [32 favorites]

ok but I get the kittens
posted by stolyarova at 10:58 AM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump puts baby in the corner.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:59 AM on August 2, 2016 [14 favorites]

The baby thing is no big deal but let's get real here, if Clinton did that exact same thing it would literally be a campaign-ender for her.
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:04 AM on August 2, 2016 [36 favorites]

He doesn't care about 270 electoral votes. What he cannot live without, now, is the full devotion of as large a group as he can find. He has found that group, and he thought he was satisfied ("we're having so much fun! Are you having fun? I'm having fun") but shit is starting to hit the fan. The only question is how he breaks, when he breaks, and what he breaks along with himself.

Is this why he keeps overbooking tiny venues? That reminds me of a friend who used to play MLB video games on the easiest setting, pitting the Tampa Bay Devil Rays versus the 2004 American League All-star team.
posted by codacorolla at 11:05 AM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

Chris Christie: Criticism of Khans is 'Inappropriate'

In an unusual break with Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump, Gov. Chris Christie said that Khizr and Ghazala Khan have the “right” to say whatever they want, and that criticism of them is “inappropriate.”

“I didn’t see Mr. Khan’s speech at the DNC but I’ll just say this: I’m a father and I just cannot imagine the pain of losing a child under any circumstances,” Christie said at an afternoon press conference in the Statehouse. “And for Mr. and Mrs. Khan, the pain of losing their son while defending our country is unfathomable, and I think it gives them the right to say whatever they want, whether they’re right or wrong.”

Come on Reek! We're rooting for you! You can do this!
posted by sallybrown at 11:12 AM on August 2, 2016 [61 favorites]

Is this why he keeps overbooking tiny venues? That reminds me of a friend who used to play MLB video games on the easiest setting, pitting the Tampa Bay Devil Rays versus the 2004 American League All-star team.

Kind of. I think he doesn't do abstractions well at all. (That's not throwing shade -- I think there are perfectly intelligent and kind people who are very concrete thinkers, just as there are equally smart and moral people who think in abstractions and intangibles.)

This is the source of Trump's obsession with polling numbers and also with crowd size. The bigger the crowd feels to him, the more people crammed in and chanting and waiting in lines outside, the more empowered he feels. Poll numbers and such aren't nearly as fun but they still allow him to imaginatively connect, quantify, reify to himself this mass of humanity that (in his mind, at least) absolutely adores him.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:12 AM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Is this why he keeps overbooking tiny venues?

A packed house of 21,000 is more impressive than filling half of 100,000 seats even though it would be twice as many people.
posted by Etrigan at 11:13 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

I wonder if Obama's remarks are meant to be the goad to a full-on Trump meltdown.

I don't know. Obama has shown that he is a deep, deep institutionalist: that he believes the nation thrives when it can trust its institutions and political leadership on all sides. He has also proved that he is the most effective political campaigner in American politics, and there's clearly a cross-campaign strategy -- "can be goaded with a tweet" -- of laying out patterns of behaviour, and having Trump illustrate them within hours.

Maybe he's closing the door on GOP leaders by putting them in positions where they'd have to stand alongside him, maybe he's pointing out that it's open for those willing to step through.
posted by holgate at 11:13 AM on August 2, 2016 [11 favorites]

Hey guys have some RCP polling averages for...

On this date in 2008/2012/2016:

August 2, 2008: Obama 46.5, McCain 43.9 (O +2.6)
August 2, 2012: Obama 47.4, Romney 44.4 (O +3.0)
August 2, 2016: Clinton 46.4, Trump 42.0 (C +4.4)

Five days after the second convention in 2008/2012/2016:

September 9, 2008: Obama 46.9, McCain 43.9 (O +3.6)
September 11, 2012: Obama 49.0, Romney 45.5 (O +3.5)
August 2, 2016: Clinton 46.4, Trump 42.0 (C +4.4)
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:15 AM on August 2, 2016 [19 favorites]

Come on Reek! We're rooting for you! You can do this!

CHRISTIE/MEREDITH 2016 MAKE AMERICA CRATE AGAIN
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:15 AM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

As someone on Twitter pointed out, that KFC pic shows that he's still working his way through Saturday's WSJ.

The newspapers are turned toward the cameras and don't look like they've been opened.
posted by Celsius1414 at 11:16 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Is this why he keeps overbooking tiny venues?

A packed house of 21,000 is more impressive than filling half of 100,000 seats even though it would be twice as many people.

Also, it costs less.
posted by Celsius1414 at 11:17 AM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

The newspapers are turned toward the cameras and don't look like they've been opened.

Perhaps it was intended as a proof of life photo?
posted by Joey Michaels at 11:19 AM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

Come on Reek! We're rooting for you! You can do this!

Christie is going to rescue Meredith from Trump Tower.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:20 AM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

I think the Purple Heart story has some legs. To the extent the Khans hullabaloo was at all tapering off, saying you've always wanted a Purple Heart after insulting a family who's son died in the Army rather brings it all back up again.
posted by zachlipton at 11:20 AM on August 2, 2016 [9 favorites]

Bernie’s big lesson: Socialists should occupy the Democratic Party, not abandon it. Now that the trail has been blazed, the next step for Bernie supporters is to take over the Democratic Party
posted by homunculus at 11:20 AM on August 2, 2016 [9 favorites]

Robert Reich: The real reckoning: Hillary Clinton can’t do much if Washington stays the same. Clinton has a long list of good proposals for helping average working people, but will they go anywhere?
posted by homunculus at 11:21 AM on August 2, 2016

I've been flipping over to Redstate . . . .
posted by the man of twists and turns

RedState is *strongly* #NeverTrump.

Strange bedfellows.
posted by spitbull at 11:22 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

since Trump's supporters now (apparently) support an exactly equivalent plan with a slightly smaller price tag, that does lend credence to the idea that some people opposed Obama for reasons that had nothing at all to do with his policies.

You don't say.
posted by Gelatin at 11:24 AM on August 2, 2016 [14 favorites]

Christie is going to rescue Meredith from Trump Tower.

It's a town full of losers
and I'm pulling outta here to wiiiiiiiin
posted by sallybrown at 11:24 AM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Hillary would never have called attention to a crying baby, unless it was to tell the woman it's okay to walk around to quiet the baby down. Hillary's people would already know to move the mics so they don't catch too much baby noise, because she knows that the viewing public needs to be able to focus on the speech - but Hillary is not personally offended if every single person in the room doesn't have their full attention on her at all times.

She wouldn't mind if a parent with a baby came to see her, knowing they'd miss some of her speech because of baby-tending. Doesn't mind if people catch up with the details later. Or don't, because they heard what they needed to and they've got a baby to deal with. She trusts them to figure out how much attention they should pay to her.

The reason politicians get slammed for failing at babykissing is not because they're supposed to care about everyone else's babies (plenty of us have the reaction "aww, cute baby... oh, it's still making noise, plz make it go away now"), but because they're supposed to care about what's important to voters, and what that baby does for the next 100 days is a hell of a lot more important to its parents than what Trump does.

Babykissing (etc.) is acknowledging that "who runs the country" is never, ever going to be as personally important as "is he crying because he's hungry or because his arm is broken?"
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:25 AM on August 2, 2016 [13 favorites]

In comparison to Hillary's $90m haul, Trump raised $35.8m last month.
posted by Talez at 11:28 AM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

‘Why Can I Never Seem To Say The Right Thing?’ Weeps Trump Into Pillow
posted by theodolite at 11:29 AM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

WSJ conservative says GOPs who support Trump "will always be tainted by association"
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 11:31 AM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

DNC CEO resigns in wake of email controversy

The CEO of the Democratic National Committee will resign Tuesday in the wake of the committee's hacked email controversy.

Amy Dacey is the highest-ranking official at the DNC to step aside due to the matter, a senior Democratic official said, but is not the only one. The official did not provide further details.

posted by zachlipton at 11:33 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Hey WSJ, next spring, when those legislators "tainted by association" have settled into their perfectly obstructionist positions, what will we hear from your rag? Crickets, that's what.
posted by klarck at 11:35 AM on August 2, 2016 [20 favorites]

WSJ conservative says GOPs who support Trump "will always be tainted by association"

Well it looks like that guy is on the shortlist for the coveted Pontius Pilate Prize in Pathetic Self-Absolution for today. Of course there are still several hours left for other entrants to step forward.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:35 AM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Wow, Christie didn't just throw Trump under the bus, he closed down the George Washington Bridge and rolled out a red carpet for it.

I said earlier that the truth will turn out to be Trump's Kryptonite, and you can really see it now. It's easy to steamroll people when they're standing there with their jaw on the ground. It just took a few people to show that speaking the truth to Donald Trump will not cause a backlash and now you have the President of the United States saying he is unfit for office and his biggest lapdog distancing himself.
posted by Room 641-A at 11:39 AM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

The real reckoning: Hillary Clinton can’t do much if Washington stays the same. Clinton has a long list of good proposals for helping average working people, but will they go anywhere?

Reich does know that she has specifically said she intends to push downballots across the country, right?
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:40 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

they are clearly not letting trump touch his phone right now. only response to the presser so far is this bland litany of previous talking points on facebook.
posted by murphy slaw at 11:43 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

The current messaging from Manafort appears to be that Hillary is somewhat associated with a Putin backing Uranium magnate from her time as Sec. of State. That seems... uniquely unwise.
posted by codacorolla at 11:45 AM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

Also, it costs less.

It costs the same if you pay your bills like Trump does. (In seriousness, they look like the kind of venues that would be willing to accept a nominal deposit with the balance to be settled later, not ones with a large advance booking fee. I'm sure they're NDA'd up, but journalists should take note and make follow-up calls in a month or so to check if they got paid in full.)
posted by holgate at 11:46 AM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

We've Entered The Centrist Handwringing Phase Of The Khan Story
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:52 AM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Like, has someone on the Dem side gone all psy ops on this and decided, "Yes. Now is the time. Pile on in sufficient numbers and from sufficient directions

I thought that they were all eager to have both primaries behind them and then planned to bring out the big guns. I think they all had fingers crossed nothing would occur to unseat Trump as the nominee.

IMO, it would be better if surrogates do most of the heavy mudslinging at Trump so that Clinton can keep a uniter/healer posture to the degree that is possible. She has to fire some volleys or she may look weak, but it seems it would be better if surrogates do the bulk of the attacks from many fronts. The more the better because he cannot let a slight or attack go unanswered.
posted by madamjujujive at 11:58 AM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

I just sent the Clinton campaign a little money; it's not much, but every little bit helps. I signed up for volunteering opportunities the other day.

I'm a little late to the conversation re: "biased fire marshals", but I wanted to drop in my two cents as a firefighter for the past 9 years and a North Carolina Code Enforcement Officer for the past 5 or so years. Codes are freakin important. Occupancy is something that is hammered into us from day one, not only as inspectors, but as firefighters. We are aware of The Station and the Iriquious and Triangle Shirtwaist; this shit is for real. Occupancy determinations and exits are subject to the building code that the state adheres to, and we're trying to make sure no one gets hurt, maimed, or killed. There's math and plan review and building and building load characteristics and and and...we don't just select an arbitrary number of people for a space. God this shit burns me up. No pun intended. I hate arguing with people when I'm inspecting, but this just pisses me off; this would make me go from a "here's what you need to change I'll be back in 30 days" attitude to "fuck you I'm just going to start writing citations; pay up." The reason why fire injuries and deaths in the civilian population is decreasing (firefighting related deaths as a result of friefighting actions stay the same, but that's a different conversation) is a direct result of greater code enforcement and public education regarding fire safety and disaster preparedness. If anyone is bored, or wants to know more, read America Burning and the follow up report. It's something I encourage anyone interested in a fire service career or volunteer opportunity to read. Sorry, I get a little hot about this sort of thing, and Cheeto Yam Fuckwit not paying attention to the importance of fire safety pushes my anger buttons.
I mean, I wanted to punch the buffoon in the face before, but now I want to smack him in the knees too.
posted by sara is disenchanted at 11:59 AM on August 2, 2016 [82 favorites]

We've Entered The Centrist Handwringing Phase Of The Khan Story

It's interesting to think about why one reads so cringe-inducing and exploitative, and the other doesn't. Obviously a lot of it is that the Khans seem in charge of their story and their message (a reminder that Muslim Americans are as patriotic as anyone and that Donald Trump's vision of America is not) is directly connected to their son's death, while Ms. Smith's anti-Hillary message is built more on lies about Benghazi than anything else. There's also a deeper difference in that the Khans aren't bloody shirt waving, they're not attacking Donald Trump for killing their son. They're actually very different, but I see how you have to think about that for a second, beyond seeing two grieving parents on stage.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 12:00 PM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

RedState is *strongly* #NeverTrump.

Strange bedfellows.

RedState is Eric Erickson's baby who is firm NeverTrumper. Even if he's not CEO anymore his contingent still thrive.
posted by Talez at 12:03 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

lovecrafty: Honest question: if Hillary wins, what's to keep McConnell et al. from refusing to open supreme court justice confirmation hearings indefinitely? What if they just plug their ears and act like whiney pissbabies about it forever?

If the Democratic party does not take control of the Senate, then theoretically nothing prevents the Senate from refusing to confirm President Clinton's nominations for the Supreme Court, as this is a power exclusively granted to the Senate by the U.S. constitution. Under normal circumstances, she could make a recess appointment. However, so long as the Senate precludes her from making recess appointments by holding a series of sessions during any "recess" (thereby never officially going into recess) this option is not available to her.

Under these hypothetical circumstances, the Democratic party might be able to play tricks during a "recess" by having a Senator officially note the lack of quorum to try to trigger a true recess or by sneaking a quorum consisting of Democratic Senators onto the floor. Ultimately, however, in the face of a Senate absolutely determined to be intransigent her only recourse would be to appeal to U.S. voters to elect her a Senate that she could work with in the 2018 midterm elections.
posted by RichardP at 12:03 PM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

Clinton gently refuting the facts presented by Patricia Smith regarding their actual conversation is also not in any way equivalent to Khan's pure statements of opinion about Trump, and his crazed need to respond to said opinion over and over and over again.
posted by gatorae at 12:04 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

And regarding fire code enforcement, it occurs to me that the need for making sure there are adequate exits is key especially when there is a crowd of charged political actors, most of which support gun ownership. Trump must be a draw for the lunatic fringe. I know that I would make a point to eyeball all exits in a crowd like that.
posted by readery at 12:06 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Wind power kills all your birds.

Someone has an axe to grind.
posted by Talez at 12:07 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

There's a lot of farmers that started making some extra money by letting companies build windmills on their farms.
posted by drezdn at 12:12 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

god, he sounds like bart simpson improvising a class presentation.

at least the post has started placing their refutations of his talking points inline.
posted by murphy slaw at 12:14 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Further confirmation that Trump considers the wind his enemy.
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:14 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

Josh Marshall: Seeing Russia, the Khans and Donald All Together

Since Trump's worldview is rooted in dominance, he is incapable of seeing international treaties or security alliances as anything other than protection rackets. He seems inclined to act on that notion. He's also surrounded by people who have a pro-Putin orientation, which is in turn cemented by money. He has deep financial ties to Russians who've invested in his various business ventures. All of this might not be quite so worrisome if Trump had well-formed and half-reasonable foreign policy views or advisors with the same. But again, over the weekend he wasn't aware that Russia seized the Crimean Peninsula two years ago. He wasn't clear that Russia is already operating, half by proxies, half not, in eastern Ukraine. And this is a country where his top advisor worked for years and an issue that has come up a number of times in the campaign.

This is just an illustration of what should be obvious: Trump knows virtually nothing about the issues he would be called on to contend with as President. He is not only ignorant, he is militantly ignorant. So he has extensive financial ties to Russia, a curiously fawning attitude toward Putin, a mix of at best shady advisors who have long histories of pro-Putin orientations and a character defect which makes him gravitate toward attacking friends/allies as much or more than actual enemies. You don't have to think Trump is a Russian agent or that Putin controls him financially (I think neither) to find this a highly ominous confluence of realities

posted by palindromic at 12:14 PM on August 2, 2016 [10 favorites]

There's a lot of farmers that started making some extra money by letting companies build windmills on their farms.

There are several large wind farms outside of Somerset, PA. Which he'd know if he didn't fly everydamnwhere because they're right on the highway.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:15 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

President Obama will go down as perhaps the worst president in the history of the United States!

Looks like he's taking it well.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:15 PM on August 2, 2016 [33 favorites]

The reason why fire injuries and deaths in the civilian population is decreasing (firefighting related deaths as a result of friefighting actions stay the same, but that's a different conversation) is a direct result of greater code enforcement and public education regarding fire safety and disaster preparedness.

This. You know why the last big fatality hotel fire was over thirty-five years ago? Because the code wasn't working, authorities reformed the fuck out of it and they enforced it to the letter. Ever since? No mass fatalities from burning hotels.

Regulations only seem onerous when you've never lived in an age where people literally died by the score from shitty and short-sighted construction. Much like vaccines seem like the devil when you didn't have to grow up with Polio trying to cripple you. Most of the regulations we have are because somebody found a problem and a solution. All you have to do is not make the dumb mistake they already found and corrected for you.
posted by Talez at 12:15 PM on August 2, 2016 [49 favorites]

yay, they gave him his phone back!

*settles in to the easy chair*
posted by murphy slaw at 12:17 PM on August 2, 2016 [13 favorites]

The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service estimates that wind turbines kill about 500,000 birds annually in total, much less than other bird threats like cats and buildings.

Trump knows about killing birds. Trust me, he's built buildings that have killed tremendous numbers of birds.
posted by snofoam at 12:17 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

President Obama will go down as perhaps the worst president in the history of the United States!

Oh for Christ sake. He can't even get hyperbole right anymore.

"Obama is horrible. I'd probably give him a 4 out of 10."
posted by tivalasvegas at 12:20 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Kaine, in FL, on Trump kicking out a crying baby at his rally today: "Sometimes you wonder who the baby is."
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 12:20 PM on August 2, 2016 [46 favorites]

President Obama will go down as perhaps the worst president in the history of the United States!

Not if Trump gets elected.
posted by wabbittwax at 12:21 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

yay, they gave him his phone back!

Holy shit. That retweet of The Gateway Pundit.
posted by Talez at 12:22 PM on August 2, 2016

Trump going after Obama has a net effect of zero outside of just being amusing. Republicans already hate Obama. Trump shit-tweeting at him is just going to make them go, "Oh, look, something I agree with Donald Trump about!"
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:23 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Until the white supremacists and xenophobes and all of the other folks hollering in fear really come out and holler in front of the rest of us--or at us--we have no opportunity for engagement or rebuttal.

I hear this a lot, and I respect where you're coming from, because it's a good place. And it's a place that makes sense - that you can expose this and defeat it once and for all. But perversely, social science suggests that it's not like that - remember that horrifying link we started passing around six months ago? That giving people a chance to expose their opinions, then have them confronted, actually entrenches them in that opinion?

I am seeing people turn from light Trump to medium Trump to full on Trump. I am watching them pass from maybe mild microaggressions to full on hateful shit. This is not getting it out to make it go away. This is growing it. People who used to think stuff and let it die out quietly without passing it on are now saying it loudly to other people. They are saying it on the phone while they are walking and talking in the car. And as a consequence, they are saying it around their children. They are incubating it.

We are seeing the highest levels of divide here since people actually were using violence on the regular to solve their political problems. This is not going to lead to good things. We need to nix it as soon as we humanly can.
posted by corb at 12:26 PM on August 2, 2016 [69 favorites]

Kaine, in FL, on Trump kicking out a crying baby at his rally today: "Sometimes you wonder who the baby is."

Good dad response, 8/10.
posted by Artw at 12:28 PM on August 2, 2016 [35 favorites]

Seriously, all these Senate and House GOPers handwringing about Trumps nonstop mouthnoise without dis-endorsing him can go suck a hot sack of wet socks. They've been building up to this for decades. Spineless isn't a strong enough word.
posted by Cookiebastard at 12:29 PM on August 2, 2016 [24 favorites]

I am seeing people turn from light Trump to medium Trump to full on Trump. I am watching them pass from maybe mild microaggressions to full on hateful shit.

i read somewhere that the difference between people who act bigoted and people who don't isn't that the non-bigots don't have bigoted thoughts - it's that they have a second thought, their conscience, that tells them not to act on the bigoted thought immediately without consideration.

trump makes it okay to act on your first thought.
posted by murphy slaw at 12:31 PM on August 2, 2016 [20 favorites]

President Obama will go down as perhaps the worst president in the history of the United States!

Which reminds me, isn't it remarkable, considering it was less than eight years ago, how completely the miserable failure of George W. Bush's presidency has been thrown down the Republican memory hole?
posted by Gelatin at 12:32 PM on August 2, 2016 [11 favorites]

8 years of racist freak out culminating in this should not be forgiven lightly. There's not a republican today who isn't complicit in this racist shitbaggery and who doesn't deserve to get kicked out of the door after having their noses rubbed in it.
posted by Artw at 12:32 PM on August 2, 2016 [16 favorites]

Apart from his complete unsuitability for the office, Trump has made two big strategic errors:

First, he became the presumptive Republican nominee on May 3, a full month before Clinton became the Democratic presumptive nominee on June 6, and six months out from the election. He had a month to define Clinton and to broaden his appeal beyond his base, and he did nothing.

Second, he seems to think that he can win the general election the same way he won the Republican primary, with bluster, bombast, and bullying. But Trump's gotta Trump. Or, as Shakespeare might say, " I am in bullshit stepped in so far that should I wade no more/Returning were as tedious as go o’er."
posted by kirkaracha at 12:33 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

ReadyForHillary:
To contrast, here's what Obama did when there was a crying baby at one of his events.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:35 PM on August 2, 2016 [45 favorites]

Trump going after Obama has a net effect of zero outside of just being amusing. Republicans already hate Obama. Trump shit-tweeting at him is just going to make them go, "Oh, look, something I agree with Donald Trump about!"

Obama's approval rating is higher than that of either candidate.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:35 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Spineless isn't a strong enough word.

Here's a little theme song for Paul Ryan and his pals. Spineless - Skeleton Key

I'm made of clay anything you say
Will determine the shape I take when you look my way
I vacillate between love and hate
And I'll sit on the fence 'til I sense what's appropriate

Because I'm spineless, yes I'm spineless
And the only truth I'm committed to is this

I'm behind your party line
And I'll stop on a dime anytime you change your mind

Because I'm spineless, yes I'm spineless
and the only truth I'm committed to is this

The crowd comes in so full of sin
And I'm a hit so full of shit
My hand goes oout my mouth off
My bones go soft, just watch me morph

I'll betray my friends and mates
And I'll laugh at the jokes of the folks prepared to pay

Because I'm spineless, yes I'm spineless
and the only truth I'm committed to is this

posted by Existential Dread at 12:36 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

aw man that look Michelle gives him when the baby is quieted with his magic powers.
posted by angrycat at 12:37 PM on August 2, 2016 [23 favorites]

Obama's approval rating is higher than that of either candidate.

Actual question: is there a difference in who gets polled about presidential approval vs. who gets polled about how they are going to vote for? Because in the latter case it's usually "likely voters" however that is defined by the polling organization. If for presidential approval rating polls, it may be a sample of "everyone." Which means you're going to get numbers that don't really correlate much to one another. Different populations.
posted by soren_lorensen at 12:39 PM on August 2, 2016

Know what kills me?

After all the insane horseshit that has piled up since Trump announced his candidacy, after that entire nightmare-for-both-parties primary race, after the daily outrages running up to the conventions, only now - just now - are we into that weird gulf between the conventions and the debates traditionally known as "silly season."
posted by EatTheWeek at 12:40 PM on August 2, 2016 [12 favorites]

I think we get to take politics off during the Olympics.
posted by drezdn at 12:41 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

The Olympics aren't exactly shaping up to be a relaxing diversion.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:43 PM on August 2, 2016 [23 favorites]

roomthreeseventeen: "President Obama will go down as perhaps the worst president in the history of the United States!

Looks like he's taking it well."

You criticized a baby today.
posted by boo_radley at 12:43 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

Charles Pierce: President Obama Is 'Reaching Across the Aisle' to Smack Donald Trump:

It's been a long time since we had an incumbent president who actively campaigned for the person he wanted to succeed him. Teddy Roosevelt pushed hard for William Howard Taft, and then regretted the hell out of it thereafter, and even tried to beat him four years later. Eisenhower held Nixon at arm's length, the way you carry a snake, as any reasonable person would. Hubert Humphrey had to spend three months running all the way from LBJ. (This had the added drawback of being part of why Johnson sat on the recorded proof of Nixon's treachery regarding the Vietnam Peace Talks in Paris.) Nixon was gone by 1976. Jimmy Carter only had one term. Ronald Reagan was cognitively functional for about three hours a day when George H.W. Bush ran to succeed him in 1988. Al Gore stupidly benched Bill Clinton, and C-Plus Augustus was a harborless plague ship drifting through the campaign in 2008.

Now, though, we have a young, vigorous, and gifted president, with a big old empty bag of fcks to give, and plainly spoiling for a fight with a guy in whose head he rented a space at the 2011 White House Correspondents Dinner, and a space that the president now has converted to an AirBnB for any Democratic politician who wants to drop by for a few days. Which is not to say that what the president said today was not serious. He, Trump is more unqualified for the office than anyone who ever ran for it. But, damn, it was old-school, too.

posted by palindromic at 12:44 PM on August 2, 2016 [27 favorites]

From the Wind power link posted earlier:

At the Pennsylvania rally Monday, Trump also promised to reduce the frequency of coal mine inspections.

“I have friends that own the mines. I mean, they can’t live,” he said.

“The restrictions environmentally are so unbelievable where inspectors come two and three times a day, and they can’t afford it any longer and they’re closing all the mines. … It’s not going to happen anymore, folks. We’re going to use our heads.”

So his friends, the mine owners, can't live? What, are they literally starving to death? And then the idea that the mine inspections are so onerous that mine owners have to shut down the mines says to me that they are probably cutting corners. Maybe not adhering to OSHA regulations. Maybe letting toxic sludge leak out. I'm not crying over closed mines.

Also Trump has a thing about wind turbines. He was pissed about the proposal to build wind turbines off the Scottish coast in full view of his golf course. He tried to stop the Scottish Government, telling them they were going to ruin tourism but the wind mills got built anyway. I know that pissed him off mightily.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:44 PM on August 2, 2016 [14 favorites]

That giving people a chance to expose their opinions, then have them confronted, actually entrenches them in that opinion?

Sure, the backfire effect exists, but it's not the only factor, and I think focusing on it without contextualizing it within the broader scope of the public debate leads to the unnecessarily grim and despondent tone that I'm getting from this comment. I think what we're seeing in the poll numbers and the beginnings of a GOP split with Trump is that, yes, the population that was already very pro-Trump may become even more rabidly pro-Trump, but the size of that population is shrinking (your unfalsifiable argument about children being indoctrinated notwithstanding) meaning that they're probably going to lose their influence within our political system if Trump continues with his quest to win the election by getting 243% of the angry white male vote. Passionate supporters are better than lukewarm supporters, but their votes count the same.

Now, if the argument is not about political power but about the urge to violently fight to overthrow the government, then that's a different argument, but if we're strictly talking about political power and the stability of our political system, I feel like the quadrupling-down by Trump and his supporters is actually a positive sign that shows how weak their argument is, and how little weight it carries among a vast majority of people.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:46 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

“I have friends that own the mines. I mean, they can’t live,” he said.

naturally Clinton is the one constantly attacked for being beholden to donors and business interests
posted by theodolite at 12:50 PM on August 2, 2016 [37 favorites]

@Ddale8:

Real fact check: Trump did not "eject" a baby. Mom was already walking baby out, right in front of me, when Trump made his comment.

Trump may have even seen the baby being walked out when he told her to get the baby out of here. Anyway

From the comments: So he just wanted to embarrass someone already remedying the situation. What a class act!
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:50 PM on August 2, 2016 [44 favorites]

I think we get to take politics off during the Olympics.

Oh, I expect Trump is going to find even dumber shit to say during and about the olympics. Like some American will get a silver or bronze in something the US doesn't usually do well in and he'll be all "Cheering for a bronze medal? Sad!" Or he'll offer up a "Hey, there's a future Mrs Trump!" about a 16 year old gymnast. Except my real expectation is that he'll say something even worse that I can't imagine yet.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:51 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

At this point I expect Trump to be tweeting about the baby incident four days from now and accusing the mother of being on the DNC payroll or possibly an ISIS sympathizer
posted by prize bull octorok at 12:52 PM on August 2, 2016 [13 favorites]

Donny doesn't understand (or at least misrepresents) GDP growth rates:

DONALD TRUMP: So I don't know if you've been reading your daily paper. But 1.2 percent in GDP - in another words, we're sinking. One of the lowest ever - we're going down.

1.2% growth equals sinking, in the same way that your growth of 1.2 inches last year is "sinking" compared to your brother who just hit a growth spurt and grew 3 inches in the same time period. And from that same NPR piece:

economist Jared Bernstein: No, 1.2 percent is an increase. Sinking would mean the GDP was actually getting smaller. And by the way, GDP is just the broadest measure of the value of the economy in trillions of dollars. And it is growing at a relatively slow rate. But it's not sinking. It's increasing. And the thing about that 1.2 percent is the underlying growth rate of GDP is actually around 2 percent.

But this isn't Donny's first time misrepresenting GDP: Donald Trump gets claim about U.S. GDP doubly wrong (Politifact, June 16th, 2015)

Trump said that in "the last quarter, it was just announced, our gross domestic product … was below zero. Who ever heard of this? It's never below zero." He messes up his economic terms; the gross domestic product was not "zero." And the growth in the gross domestic product has been below zero 42 times over 68 years. That’s a lot more than "never." We rate his claim Pants on Fire!

Good thing he has more pants, because I smell another fire.
posted by filthy light thief at 12:53 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Hey! That baby is probably going to go to a Democrat school.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:54 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

I want to see Trump comprehensively repudiated and scorned from political life. But I want to see the people who follow him — yes, even the racists — engaged in a way that brings out their pride, anger and self-determination and converts it into meaningful constructive political action.

I don't want to see Trump's voters humiliated. Even if the rage of some voters is inchoate and misdirected, there is a lot to learn about their lives and a lot that needs to be made better with their involvement.
posted by argybarg at 12:55 PM on August 2, 2016 [14 favorites]

Hillary would never have called attention to a crying baby, unless it was to tell the woman it's okay to walk around to quiet the baby down. Hillary's people would already know to move the mics so they don't catch too much baby noise, because she knows that the viewing public needs to be able to focus on the speech - but Hillary is not personally offended if every single person in the room doesn't have their full attention on her at all times.

I can absolutely see her turn a crying baby at one of her rallies into a teachable moment.

A very large part of campaign has been based around the idea that she wants to help create a better environment for families and children, and especially mothers. Where they have access to better health care, a strong education, better job opportunities, things like paid family leave and equal pay for everyone. These concepts are at the core of many of her stump speeches.

She's run the sort of campaign that makes parents hopeful that they'll be able to raise their children to do better than they did. Far more than Trump, whose rhetoric is filled with anger and fear.

A crying baby? Bring it up on stage and say, "THE WHOLE REASON WHY I'M RUNNING, RIGHT HERE."
posted by zarq at 12:56 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

like everything I know about Appalachian coal towns comes from that model rocket movie but shouldn't the normal response to "I'm friends with all the mine owners" be a grimy wad of spit
posted by theodolite at 12:56 PM on August 2, 2016 [17 favorites]

Good thing he has more pants, because I smell another fire.

If only there were a group of people who were in charge of, say, marshaling fires so as to take preventative measures to keep his pants from igniting so often.
posted by zachlipton at 12:57 PM on August 2, 2016 [27 favorites]

Good thing he has more pants, because I smell another fire.

In which case, alienating local fire marshalls and fire departments is an absolutely suicidal gambit, no?
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 12:58 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

I just watched the crying-baby thing and honestly, it's no big deal. He's being comical about it, or trying to be.

Stay on target, folks.
posted by argybarg at 12:59 PM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

“I have friends that own the mines. I mean, they can’t live,” he said.

naturally Clinton is the one constantly attacked for being beholden to donors and business interests

Mine owners are job creators (and life ruiners, but that's beside the point). They're brave industrialists, like he is! He feels the plight of the working rich! And some day, those very mine workers could end up owning a mine of their own,* and wouldn't they want Trump on their side then?

*You know, when mine owners settle wrongful death cases with the families of dead miners. Until then, you should be happy that your billionaire mine owner "invested or given away more than $200 million in the last five years" (as of 2014), including $25 million for three football fields and a training center for the New Orleans Saints, instead of paying nearly $2 million in overdue fines. Because he's giving back to the community, see?
posted by filthy light thief at 1:00 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

I have friends that own the mines. I mean, they can’t live,” he said

'Cause if there's one thing we've learned from 75+ years of country and folk music, the way to really appeal to the American blue collar worker is to play up your cozy relationship with the owners of factories and mines.
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:01 PM on August 2, 2016 [40 favorites]

I was struck today by how many people have to "explain" Trump. Yesterday it was Eric's turn telling us that when Dad said a hypothetically, sexually harassed Ivanka should change careers, he really meant that she should go to human resources and complain. Trump has had Reince Priebus explaining, Mike Pence, Ivanka, Paul Manaford,-- I guess pretty much everyone who supports him. I know spin, and this is not spin or walking back it is more like trying to change recorded history. But then Trump does that frequently as well.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:01 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

I just watched the crying-baby thing and honestly, it's no big deal. He's being comical about it, or trying to be.

I mostly agree, but it's the mocking dig at the mother ("I think she really believed me") that turns it from a harmless joke to a nasty one.
posted by Roommate at 1:03 PM on August 2, 2016 [38 favorites]

There have been multiple recent cases in WV where mine owners flagrantly skirted regulations and deceived federal mine safety inspectors and multiple people died. Clinton PR people, get on this soundbite! Play him saying "I have friends that own mines...inspectors come two and three times a day...it's not going to happen anymore, folks!" over and over and over again with the stats on how many miners have died in the past 5 years.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:04 PM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

AARP members kicked out of same rally.

Old voters are weak. I appeal to young voters. The youngest voters. Babies. GET THAT BABY OUT OF HERE! Babies are weak..........
posted by Cookiebastard at 1:04 PM on August 2, 2016 [13 favorites]

I just watched the crying-baby thing and honestly, it's no big deal. He's being comical about it, or trying to be.

It was another example of his chilling narcissism. "She actually believed me that I'd be ok with a crying baby while I'm speaking!!" Like, of course she would.
posted by zutalors! at 1:05 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

"Let me tell you folks, when I'm elected president, we're going to delve so greedily, and so deep. You won't believe it. We're going to awaken tremendous things in the darkness of Khazad-dum. We're gonna make Moria great again, believe me."
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:05 PM on August 2, 2016 [58 favorites]

Uh... aren't seniors like the largest voting block in US elections? Is it a good idea to be throwing their reps (AARP) out?
posted by PenDevil at 1:06 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

I just watched the crying-baby thing and honestly, it's no big deal. He's being comical about it, or trying to be.

I put it in the same bin as the "Nazi salute" at the RNC - another example of the campaign (and in this case, Trump personally) being unable to express themselves in public without punching themselves in the face.

He's trying to make a joke, but he's using the "distracted business dude" voice (because that's about the only one he has, or the only one that's not "I'm gonna smash those bastards you hate"), so it falls completely flat.

I will ready popcorn for his announcements that apple pie is evil and he hates baseball, probably in the form of grumbling about McDonalds' weird little apple pie things and that some particular baseball team sucks.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 1:07 PM on August 2, 2016

“I have friends that own the mines. I mean, they can’t live,” he said.

I have GENERATIONS of family members killed in the mines.

I would really like to call some of my relatives and find out what they thought about this line of his, but it would probably depress me.
posted by winna at 1:08 PM on August 2, 2016 [20 favorites]

The AARP? I understand the baby thing—babies don't vote—but kicking out the AARP could be a mistake.
posted by snofoam at 1:08 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Huh. Lots of people on Twitter report getting robocalls begging for “emergency donations” for Trump’s campaign. Sad!
posted by nicepersonality at 1:11 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

It was probably one of those anchor babies and he was trying to kick it out before it got a it's hooks in.
posted by ckape at 1:13 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Huh. Lots of people on Twitter report getting robocalls begging for “emergency donations” for Trump’s campaign. Sad!

He just claimed he was still self-funding at the rally in VA. Apparently the robocalls are coming from this PAC: Liberty Action PAC, which, if those financials are still relatively current, means the only emergency is that PAC's payroll.
posted by dis_integration at 1:14 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

I would be willing to wager that Trump has zero mine owner friends because it seems clear at this point he doesn't actually have any friends.
posted by gatorae at 1:17 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

CBS Pittsburgh:
Donald Trump Tells Mother, Crying Baby To Leave Rally In Virginia

I dunno. All the awful things he has said and done and it is Crying BabyGate that gets all the attention. Still. As long as he insults one or two large groups everyday from now until November. That's not too much for me to ask, is it?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:17 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

> the only emergency is that PAC's payroll

Maybe fundraising “for Trump” is the new Nigerian Prince: the cover story guarantees they won’t waste time on anyone who isn’t credulous enough to fall for the scam.
posted by nicepersonality at 1:18 PM on August 2, 2016 [16 favorites]

I agree that the baby thing isn't necessarily an issue by itself, but I do think that having received coverage, it's another paper cut. There's a tiny slice of the voting public who will hear something about this, put it together with some other things they've heard, form a negative impression, and then that's their decision. I do mean tiny, but an event such as this seems to be happening pretty much every day. I think Trump realizes this somewhere deep inside and is acting out of fear and on the verge of being caught in an anxious spiral, if he isn't already: I think he is aware that he's digging himself in deeper, but he just can't put the shovel down because it's his only tool, and this makes him dig even harder.
posted by feloniousmonk at 1:20 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

We're going to awaken tremendous things in the darkness of Khazad-dum. We're gonna make Moria great again, believe me."

Make Redania great again. He burns the best witches.
posted by corb at 1:20 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

LooseFilter: While I understand this fear, the U.S. has certainly grown past, corrected, repaired, etc. far greater rending to the fabric of civil society than a bunch of angry idiots screaming TRUUUUMP!!!! (even if some of those idiots have guns).

Very thoughtful post! I am, however, going to push back a little bit on some of the assumptions here.

Has our society grown past the problems of the Federalist/Anti-Federalist debate post-Revolution, or those problems that arose after Reconstruction in the 1860s or after the end to de jure Jim Crow in the 1960s? These events are the most trying to our civil life that I can think of right now. Where I'm sitting, we still haven't fully dealt with these issues -- hence, Trump. Moreover, in the 18th, 19th, and mid-20th century, there weren't mass communication platforms that could reach everyone so quickly and allow for the formation of amorphous, ad-hoc social groups that enable the participants to reinforce whatever biases they have.

Also, I would suggest that Trump's supporters are more than just some ignorant people screaming a man's name. We have the candidate encouraging political violence at his rallies, while his supporters hit peaceful protest. Trump inspires hate crimes. He's already questioning the very integrity of the electoral process, in preparation for loosing, so he can save face. He's intentionally picking at the threads of these past conflicts to undermine our civic society.

And sunlight really is the best disinfectant.

Sunlight can also help organisms grow, enough nutrients and water exist. I am pretty far from convinced that the icky racism on display is analogous to bacteria. Another analogy might be that sunlight can trigger dormant seeds of hate to grow.

We will engage with them as we need to, and have to, and I hope it's all verbally and that we can figure out how to be friends and neighbors afterward, but even if it gets ugly it seems to be something that needs to happen.

You're getting at what scares me here -- is it really possible to be friends with someone who supports oppressing you on the basis of your gender, sexual orientation, religion, or another inherent? IMO, true forgiveness (and eventual reconcillation) require that the offending party to demonstrate and awareness of why their behaviour was problematic. Not sure it seems likely the Trump crowd to do that, since there have been so few consequences for politicians and citizens who support Trump.

I sure hope I'm just carrying around my worry mouse but 2016 has not been my favourite year.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 1:20 PM on August 2, 2016 [17 favorites]

Maybe fundraising “for Trump” is the new Nigerian Prince

It might be kind of a relief if some gullible fools' money went to con artists OTHER than Dishonest Donald.
posted by oneswellfoop at 1:21 PM on August 2, 2016

"I'm friends with all the mine owners"

He may be referring to criminal Don Blankenship - erstwhile Massey Mine CEO - who kept double safety books and commit other safety crimes that led to the deaths of 29 miners in the Upper Big Branch Mine disaster. Blankenship was given a pathetic one year term in jail (or less than 2 weeks each per death. ) He's a notable West Virginia republican financier and Blankenship turned out this past May with a group of Trump supporters to protest Hillary Clinton.
posted by madamjujujive at 1:22 PM on August 2, 2016 [24 favorites]

The baby thing will only matter if Trump decides to blow it up by having a temper tantrum about it and keeping it alive for far longer than if he just ignored it.

There's no way he would do such a thing, is there?
posted by argybarg at 1:24 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Coal Mines Keep Operating Despite Injuries, Violations And Millions In Fines

MSHA is political! Just like those fire marshalls!

But wonder if he's friends with any of those owners with delinquent fines for injuries, fatalities or safety violations:

Six owners of Eastern Kentucky coal mines among top 10 nationally for unpaid fines
posted by mandolin conspiracy at 1:24 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

He just claimed he was still self-funding at the rally in VA.

Huh. Well he gave himself two million in June but he also did some fund raising. Is he too proud to tell his rabid fans that they need to kick in a few bucks or are his fans less rabid than we thought to the point of dropping Trump if he asks them for money?

I have thought that his schedule this week has been so full that he didn't leave any time to fund raise. Maybe he is just going to jet around the country, speaking at high schools, and soaking up the adulation instead of running a Presidential campaign?

He may be referring to criminal Don Blankenship - erstwhile Massey Mine CEO - who kept double safety books and commit other safety crimes that led to the deaths of 29 miners in the Upper Big Branch Mine disaster.

Jesus. I think I would be quiet about that friendship.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:24 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

I dunno. All the awful things he has said and done and it is Crying BabyGate that gets all the attention.

It's a dumb thing on the one hand, but it's a perfect moment to sum him up: he says one thing, almost immediately says another, then acts like he was joking, he attacks a random person at his own rally over some trivial nonsense that demonstrates that he has no ability to control his reactions to things. It's the whole "you really want THIS person in charge" argument in a nutshell.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 1:25 PM on August 2, 2016 [13 favorites]

Oh, I expect Trump is going to find even dumber shit to say during and about the olympics.... Except my real expectation is that he'll say something even worse that I can't imagine yet.

Smart money's on Trump saying something horrible about the Olympic refugee team.
posted by tivalasvegas at 1:26 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

From Reagan to Trump
posted by R.F.Simpson at 1:28 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

I am seeing people turn from light Trump to medium Trump to full on Trump.

Sure. But tonycpsu is right, it is a shrinking base. And I see that in a lot of ways. In the absence of Trump signs and stickers. In the huge absences of electeds from the convention. In the denunciations by fellow Rs in the media. In the loss of support in the polls. In the attacks Trump keeps making on normally reliable areas of the base -- veterans, parents of veterans, firefighters, to name a few recent groups. In the attacks Trump makes on other members of his party, past and present.

Personally I think what Trump is running for isn't really the presidency or an ongoing say in U.S. politics. I think this is all a huge publicity campaign to keep his name out there for those in the population -- small in percentage but relatively numerous as potential customers. Like Bloomberg, I know a con when I see one.

I also think, corb, you are seeing how deeply racist and hate filled a substantial part of the Republican base is. I hope to see the day that they, like the Israelites who originally lived in slavery in Egypt, finally die out.
posted by bearwife at 1:30 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

Donald Trump Just Literally Retweeted a Story by the 'Stupidest Man on the Internet'

Jim Hoft runs a popular far right wing blog, The Gateway Pundit, and has been named the "stupidest man on the internet" by several websites, including the satirical (but excellent!) Wonkette, along with the also excellent sites Crooks and Liars and Little Green Footballs, among others. Hoft has also been named the "dumbest man in the internet" by Joe.My.God. and others.

So, naturally, Donald Trump just retweeted a story from Hoft – a poorly-written piece with virtually no facts to back it up, about a fire marshal allegedly turning away "thousands" of Trump supporters from a rally, aka, doing his job if the event space was full. Hoft didn't bother to offer any details, of course.

Remember, Trump is the "law and order candidate," until he's not.

Donald Trump and the terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day

Tuesday, Aug. 2, may be remembered as one of the worst days of the 2016 election for Donald Trump.

The day is not over yet, but go on.

At a Virginia rally, Trump said there was “something phony” about the polls that show Clinton in the lead.

All the polls? OK so besides bad news at the polls, Republican Hanna endorsing Clinton, gettig slammed by Obama, and throwing out a crying baby what else?

Amid all of this, a Trump supporter in Virginia gave the candidate his Purple Heart, an award given by the U.S. president to those wounded or killed in the line of duty. “I always wanted to get the Purple Heart—this was much easier,” Trump said. “I'll tell you, it was such an honor.” His “this was much easier” joke comes one day after the New York Times revealed that Trump received five draft deferments, keeping him from fighting in Vietnam.

Oh, and despite the man telling Trump that the Purple Heart was real, the guy told a reporter earlier that the one he gave him was a replica.

There are several hours of daylight left. Things could get worse.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:36 PM on August 2, 2016 [18 favorites]

The thing that helps me sleep at night is the much-quoted fact that for Trump to win he has to carry all of Romney's states plus flip a few more blue states. Where is the evidence that he is interested in or capable of doing this, especially now that the election is less than three months away and he spends most of his waking hours inventing new ways to piss different demographics off? It's not impossible, but it seems a lot less likely than, say, emerging victorious from a crowd of racists and plutocrats by being the loudest racist plutocrat.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:36 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

There are several hours of daylight left. Things could get worse.

Trump refuses to support Paul Ryan, John McCain in upcoming Republican primaries
posted by zombieflanders at 1:38 PM on August 2, 2016 [25 favorites]

Trump refuses to support Paul Ryan, John McCain in upcoming Republican primaries (WaPo)

Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump is refusing to back House Speaker Paul D. Ryan in his upcoming primary election, saying in an interview Tuesday that he is “not quite there yet” in endorsing his party’s top-ranking elected official.

Trump also said he was not supporting Sen. John McCain in his primary in Arizona, and he singled out Sen. Kelly Ayotte as a weak and disloyal leader in New Hampshire, a state whose presidential primary Trump won handily.

posted by rtha at 1:38 PM on August 2, 2016 [26 favorites]

i gotta say it was a good day
posted by entropicamericana at 1:39 PM on August 2, 2016 [32 favorites]

"Trump refuses to support anyone not named Trump."
posted by tonycpsu at 1:39 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

BRB, going to buy stock in several popcorn companies.
posted by Roommate at 1:40 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Truly the best, most luxurious, classiest scorpion.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:40 PM on August 2, 2016 [32 favorites]

Oh, and despite the man telling Trump that the Purple Heart was real, the guy told a reporter earlier that the one he gave him was a replica.
Did the guy tell him that, though? The report I saw had Donald Trump saying the guy told him it was real. Big difference. Sad.
posted by Floydd at 1:40 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

despite the man telling Trump that the Purple Heart was real, the guy told a reporter earlier that the one he gave him was a replica.

This is..not a good story. If the man received a Purple Heart, then it doesn't matter if it's the original Purple Heart he received, or a replacement medal - it's still his Purple Heart. The real story is why the fuck would you give someone your Purple Heart? It's...that's not a thing that's done. That's not a thing that's done at all. Like if I give some stranger my medals what the fuck is that even?
posted by corb at 1:41 PM on August 2, 2016 [74 favorites]

Clearly I need to start drinking more for this election.
posted by corb at 1:41 PM on August 2, 2016 [53 favorites]

The thing that helps me sleep at night is the much-quoted fact that for Trump to win he has to carry all of Romney's states plus flip a few more blue states.

Someone pointed out that Trump is doing worse than Romney with white men and white women, and is losing badly with nonwhite men and nonwhite. Furthermore, the electorate is less white than it was four years ago. So where is his realistic path to victory?

(That said, I'm not going to relax about this election until Hillary is giving her victory speech on November 8th!)
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 1:42 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Why would anyone give Trump a symbol of duty and sacrifice unless they were trying to shame him?
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:42 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

If I can characterize what corb is saying, though, it's that defeating Trump in this election won't get us off the hook and may in fact make things worse — the revanchist Right may just be angried up by the loss and become more violent and bonded by what they see as the injustice of Trump losing.

How we get out of, or mitigate, the ill effects is quite beyond me.
posted by argybarg at 1:42 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

Trump just attacked former POW John McCain for not caring enough about veterans.
posted by zombieflanders at 1:42 PM on August 2, 2016 [18 favorites]

Yeah, corb, I didn't understand it either. I'm not sure if the man "awarded" Trump the Purple Heart or just wanted to give something to his hero. We need to talk to the Purple Heart Giver!
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:44 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump is refusing to back House Speaker Paul D. Ryan in his upcoming primary election, saying in an interview Tuesday that he is “not quite there yet” in endorsing his party’s top-ranking elected official.

This is Trump's revenge for Ryan saying the same thing about him during the primaries.
Washington (CNN)House Speaker Paul Ryan said Thursday he cannot yet support presumptive Republican nominee Donald Trump's presidential campaign.

"I'm just not ready to do that at this point. I'm not there right now," the Wisconsin Republican told CNN's "The Lead with Jake Tapper" in an interview.

posted by zarq at 1:44 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

Trump reminds me of Netflix's chaos monkey.
posted by glhaynes at 1:44 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

Tuesday, Aug. 2, may be remembered as one of the worst days of the 2016 election for Donald Trump.

There's going to be a lot of competition there, we've got 98 days left and they can't all be the worst.
posted by octothorpe at 1:45 PM on August 2, 2016 [14 favorites]

Clearly I need to start drinking more for this election.

My drink du jour has been a La Croix sparkling water (any flavor, though I am partial to apricot), mixed with a little cherry juice, and then topped off with some St. Germain Elderflower Liqueur. Very refreshing and tasty on a warm summer night.

Though this election may soon drive me to straight Everclear, lapped out of a dog bowl.
posted by spinifex23 at 1:46 PM on August 2, 2016 [37 favorites]

Hot chocolate with cherry brandy got me through the Republican Convention.
posted by kyrademon at 1:47 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump is basically not spending any money on ads in swing states. I mean, like very little.
posted by OmieWise at 1:47 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

(It's chilly here.)
posted by kyrademon at 1:48 PM on August 2, 2016

"I've never been there with John McCain because I've always felt he should have done a better job for the vets."

If he weren't running for one of the most powerful offices in the world how delicious it would be to behold the spectacle of a mouth operating without any brain.
posted by winna at 1:48 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Maybe Purple Heart man was paid by Trump to give him the medal and Trump, like an eager kindergartner the day before the teacher's surprise party, opened his mouth to show he knows something we don't know?

That sounds too conspiratorial but when you scale up for 2016 Levels of Insanity it isn't insane enough.
posted by Tevin at 1:48 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

This guy I hated in high school for being a smug Republican asshole is running for office* as a smug Republican asshole in my parents' town. It is my deeply held wish that being on a ballot with Trump hurts his chances.

*I eventually decided starting a SuperPAC just to oppose him was too petty
posted by palindromic at 1:48 PM on August 2, 2016 [14 favorites]

Reading about the R convention on Metafilter instead of watching or listening to it got me through it. Thanks , you awesome people, with or without your cherry brandy!
posted by bearwife at 1:48 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

There's going to be a lot of competition there, we've got 98 days left and they can't all be the worst.

actually, if every day of the campaign is worse than the last…
posted by murphy slaw at 1:50 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

> "Trump is basically not spending any money on ads in swing states. I mean, like very little."

*shrug* He's had as much free media as he wants just for the asking. Clinton is probably going to have to spend a billion just to have a chance of keeping up.
posted by kyrademon at 1:51 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Tuesday, Aug. 2, may be remembered as one of the worst days of the 2016 election for Donald Trump.

The amazing thing is that we were all thinking the same thing yesterday.
posted by diogenes at 1:51 PM on August 2, 2016 [25 favorites]

Guys, did you know Trump is beating Kelly Ayotte in the polls? In what polls? In the best polls. All the best polls that poll two people running for different elected offices against each other.
posted by sallybrown at 1:52 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

"Trump is basically not spending any money on ads in swing states. I mean, like very little."

What does $15,000 even get you, media-wise? (That's what he's spent in PA.) That's like single blipvert levels of ad buying.
posted by soren_lorensen at 1:52 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

it's that defeating Trump in this election won't get us off the hook and may in fact make things worse — the revanchist Right may just be angried up by the loss and become more violent and bonded by what they see as the injustice of Trump losing.

Defeating Trump will not make things worse, because the alternative is a Trump presidency, and there isn't anything worse than that. The possibility of a ratcheting up of paranoia and resentment that you're talking about here is indeed troublesome -- nobody has said beating him will get us "off the hook" -- but defeating him politically is the priority, and if that means a few angry Trump supporters get angrier, that's a risk worth taking.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:53 PM on August 2, 2016 [22 favorites]

The amazing thing is that there are 97 days of thinking the same thing still to go.
posted by vbfg at 1:53 PM on August 2, 2016

If he weren't running for one of the most powerful offices in the world how delicious it would be to behold the spectacle of a mouth operating without any brain.

Many years ago, when he was on Third Rock from the Sun, French Stewart was asked by Matt Lauer on the Today Show how he managed to play his character Harry Solomon effectively.

Stewart replied, "My formula is: stumble into a room, say something stupid and get the hell out. It's amazing how much mileage you can get out of a character with only a brain stem."
posted by zarq at 1:53 PM on August 2, 2016 [12 favorites]

There's going to be a lot of competition there, we've got 98 days left and they can't all be the worst

Oh they can. Trump has the Best worst days, better than anyone else.

Trump is basically not spending any money on ads in swing states. I mean, like very little

Even if he doesn't spend a dime on advertising there are still a lot of costs in running a Presidential Campaign. Flying everyone around. Putting them up in hotels. Feeding them. Paying their salaries. Mailing out fliers. Conducting polls. Here is a chart documenting the money spent in the 2012 campaign.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:54 PM on August 2, 2016

what got me through the RNC was the MAGAhattan:

2-6 parts bottom-shelf bourbon
liberal dash of orange bitters
top off with La Croix flavor of choice
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:54 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

October 9: Trump Still Missing In Benghazi Region; Candidate Vowed To "Find The Emails"
posted by theodolite at 1:55 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

The amazing thing is that there are 97 days of thinking the same thing still to go.

The 97 days hate.
posted by dis_integration at 1:55 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

That Trump said he "always wanted" a Purple Heart is drawing scathing comments from veterans. He is really amazing at deepening his own holes. I think he is now approaching his favorite destination, China.
posted by bearwife at 1:55 PM on August 2, 2016 [19 favorites]

Earlier today
Campaign Staffer: Lets gets some good visuals today to put this Khan stuff in the rearview mirror. How about some traditional campaign stuff, you know like kissing babies.
Trump: Gotcha.
(later)
Campaign staffer: I said *KISS* babies, not *KICK* them.
Trump: These babies are rapists, murderers and terrorists. We need a moratorium on babies until we get this under control.
posted by humanfont at 1:55 PM on August 2, 2016

Finally listening to Obama's statement about Trump and I love that he's in his slow-talking thoughtful mode for it. You can just feel him searching for the right words to describe the horror that he's witnessing.
posted by octothorpe at 1:57 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

The amazing thing is that there are 97 days of thinking the same thing still to go.

The 97 days hate.

I was thinking bottles of beer myself.
posted by ZeusHumms at 1:57 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

@ddale8: This week in Trump and veterans:
- Suggested Gold Star dad supports terrorists
- Said he always wanted a Purple Heart
- Maligned former POW
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 1:58 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

"Trump is basically not spending any money on ads in swing states. I mean, like very little."

Where the fuck is his money going, then? Is he just buying everyone on staff rooms in his hotels at full price every night?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:58 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Video of Obama's remarks on Trump
posted by escape from the potato planet at 1:58 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

I think that "From Reagan to Trump" link is missing the point. Yes, Reagan and Trump share some overlap on domestic policy (though very different on foreign policy... for starters Reagan was against nuclear proliferation.)

But compare their rhetoric...

That's the reason Reagan is remembered fondly despite Iran Contra and trickle down economics and all the rest. His rhetoric made people feel good. That's the reason Reagan beat Jimmy Carter, who would probably be sainted after his death if it weren't for the fact that he's Evangelical rather than Catholic. Part of the president's job is, I guess, to tell Americans the story of what America is and where it is going, and that can probably have as much impact on people's feeling of well-being as their actual economic conditions. Reagan was genuinely good at that part of the job. (Trump, BTW, is not.)

I have been talking to a Trump-supporting cousin (he would've preferred Ben Carson, but thinks anyone is better than Hillary... and this cousin is surprisingly pro-Sanders too.) I realized today that this guy (who I like and have known all my life) does not care about policy. Not at all. Nada. I keep making arguments about policy, and he keeps coming back with arguments about character/personality. He says, when I show him lists of terrible things Trump has said about nuclear weapons and torture and "taking out their families" and and so on, "I can dig up a thousand idiotic statements Hillary has said too..." He says this is stuff Trump "may or may not do" but Hillary has a history of corruption. (I don't know how I can possibly convince him otherwise.) He cares about "the right of the people to be represented by leaders who do not cheat their way into position and then deceive them to 'provide' them a country that they think they need..."

I said I'm more interested in "Does he or she have good ideas?" than "Does he or she have good intentions?" I said however good or bad Trump's intentions and however good or bad Hillary Clinton's intentions, "If Donald Trump gets to do the things he says he wants to do, I believe there will be more war and injustice and poverty. And if Hillary Clinton does the things she says she wants to do, I believe there will be more peace and prosperity." And that's where we left it.

But I guess a lot of people judge on intentions and not ideas. Maybe it takes too much energy to try to judge what's a good or a bad idea? Maybe people feel more confident of their ability to judge intentions than ideas? Because the stories that have gotten traction against Trump are not the horrible, horrible policy statements he's made, but that time he made fun of a disabled reporter, and this time picking on the mother of a dead soldier. Those are the stories people have paid attention to. Not "I might default on our debt and trigger a depression."

But anyway, I think Reagan is remembered as a man of good intentions, and there's not too much to gain by ragging on him, however bad his ideas. The baby story, though, might have legs..?
posted by OnceUponATime at 1:58 PM on August 2, 2016 [14 favorites]

*I eventually decided starting a SuperPAC just to oppose him was too petty

Well it's a good thing you have bored and petty web developer friends looking for new meddlesome hobbies, then.
posted by OntologicalPuppy at 1:59 PM on August 2, 2016 [12 favorites]

@ddale8: This week in Trump and veterans:

... And it's only Tuesday.
posted by octothorpe at 1:59 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Where the fuck is his money going, then? Is he just buying everyone on staff rooms in his hotels at full price every night?

he's redirecting it to himself via "ad agencies" named after Mad Men, remember
posted by theodolite at 2:00 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

he's redirecting it to himself via "ad agencies" named after Mad Men, remember

Sometimes you just have to shake your head in admiration at the grift. He's managed to completely redirect the outrage to his repeated public idiocies, and this shit just goes on unnoticed.
posted by Existential Dread at 2:02 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

> "actually, if every day of the campaign is worse than the last…"

October 13: Having evaded capture for the 8th consecutive day, Trump, still naked, screaming, and covered with chicken entrails, is briefly spotted in Chicago making an unsuccessful attempt to steal and devour a kitten. Pundits question his decision to campaign in Illinois. Polls remain unchanged.
posted by kyrademon at 2:02 PM on August 2, 2016 [75 favorites]

Finally listening to Obama's statement about Trump and I love that he's in his slow-talking thoughtful mode for it

I know what you mean, but on the other hand, it makes for terrible sound-bites.
posted by Rumple at 2:03 PM on August 2, 2016

Solid gold, here:

"I think that as much as folks want to make it about Mr. Trump and Mr. Nehlen, this is all about Paul Ryan and his cozying up to Barack Obama, and now clearly aligning himself with Hillary Clinton and everything she stands for. Paul Ryan has promised to deliver her agenda if elected, on issue after issue, from trade to shipping jobs to China to a lawless immigration reform." Noel Fritsch, Communications Director for Paul Nehlen

posted by sallybrown at 2:04 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

But I guess a lot of people judge on intentions and not ideas.

This shit is complex. I have a master's degree and am a lifelong nerd and I don't know where I stand on a lot of things, because on the one hand blah but on the other hand bleh and on the third hand unintended consequences and etc etc etc etc... It's hard to grasp, and harder to grasp if you have other things going on in your life than sitting around refreshing metafilter all day. Feelings, on the other hand, are instant and require no advanced study. Everyone has a PhD in their own feelings.
posted by soren_lorensen at 2:06 PM on August 2, 2016 [13 favorites]

Where the fuck is his money going, then? Is he just buying everyone on staff rooms in his hotels at full price every night?

We already know he's funneling as much of that money through his family and his own businesses as he can. Additionally, he flies back to one home or another on his own plane practically every night. Fuel and fees for that sort of thing gotta add up quick.

Those factors aren't going to account for all that much of the money he's spending, but it shows where his priorities are.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:06 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump: You have Kelly Ayotte who doesn't want to talk about Trump but I am beating her in the polls by a lot. You tell me. Are these people that should be representing us, okay? You tell me?

What? Ayotte should not be representing people because she doesn't talk about Trump? Or because he is "beating her in the polls?" Is this the winning is everything attitude? Because, Donald, if you are reading this, Hillary Clinton is beating you in the polls. So maybe you should not represent us.

Also I just polled my dog. She agrees with me that the cat would be a better President than you. So you are losing in the polls to Phineas the cat. By a lot.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:08 PM on August 2, 2016 [10 favorites]

"Trump is basically not spending any money on ads in swing states. I mean, like very little."

Where the fuck is his money going, then? Is he just buying everyone on staff rooms in his hotels at full price every night?

More fuel to that fire: Clinton Camp And Allies Book $98M In TV Ads To Trump Allies' Less Than $1M
posted by palindromic at 2:09 PM on August 2, 2016

Day after day, I'm becoming more convinced that this is a scam. He's really just doing it for the attention and the grift. He *really* doesn't want to be President.
posted by gofargogo at 2:10 PM on August 2, 2016 [10 favorites]

Reading about the R convention on Metafilter instead of watching or listening to it got me through it.

Fiercely scrolling through Metafilter, copious amounts of free booze, and texting CookerGirl to word-scream about what was on the stage after our coup failed got me through. Seriously though, I think Metafilter may have saved so many livers.
posted by corb at 2:10 PM on August 2, 2016 [42 favorites]

37 states have some form of early voting, and 27 have no-excuse absentee ballots. Taking advantage of this is not only the best way to mitigate the problem of long lines and insuffient polling places, it also allows campaigns to better focus their election day GOTV efforts.
posted by dersins at 10:20 AM on August 2 [7 favorites +] [!] [quote]

Not my state, alas :(
posted by soren_lorensen at 10:22 AM on August 2 [+] [!] [quote]

Don't despair too much. That map is a useful one but it doesn't paint a full picture. Virginia, for example, is listed there as absentee requiring an excuse. However the actual excuses that pass muster are so generous that they may as well be no excuse.

Here's the full list, but the two big ones are as follows.

Business outside County/City of residence on Election Day
Personal business or vacation outside County/City of residence on Election Day

Realistically this means "pretty much everyone," at least folks in counties like mine where you're never more than 5 miles from an edge. Even Loudoun, about 7 times bigger than us, you'd be within 10 miles of an edge. So if your dentist appointment is in the neighboring county you've got a fully legal excuse. Work in the next county? You're good. All you have to do is say where you're going.

Hell, additional reasons you can request one which don't even require any explanation:

I have a religious obligation
My pregnancy
My disability or illness

posted by phearlez at 2:10 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

He's had as much free media as he wants just for the asking. Clinton is probably going to have to spend a billion just to have a chance of keeping up.

But Trump's free media strategy is an intellectual Ponzi scheme. He has to outrage people every day to make the news. It's a fine primary strategy, because you can outrage people in the other party. But it's useless in the general election because there are very few non-voter groups to offend.

Babies, he's right about that. But babies are suprisingly popular among other demographic groups. He can attack dogs and cats, same problem. Otherwise, foreigners and convicts are the only targets left.
posted by msalt at 2:11 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump honestly just handcuffed Ryan and McCain to him and threw away the keys.

If they disavow him now, they look as if (a) they're following orders from Obama, (b) they care more about a Trump non-endorsement than about Trump disrespecting a Gold Star family.

And if they don't break away, they look stunningly weaker than Trump, and scared of him.
posted by sallybrown at 2:11 PM on August 2, 2016 [30 favorites]

And I'm willing to bet that the vast majority of people who don't have the last name of Trump will get stiffed by the time all the bills come due.
posted by gofargogo at 2:11 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

If they disavow him now, they look as if ..., (b) they care more about a Trump non-endorsement than about Trump disrespecting a Gold Star family.

Well...
posted by phearlez at 2:12 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

d he keeps coming back with arguments about character/personality.

Donald Trump's character counts

Another problem: One of Trump's few proven and consistent traits is making whatever outlandish promises he has to make to close the sale, and then leaving his creditors and business partners in the lurch later. He creates scam businesses, and he does so by selling his marks on a fantasy. Come to Trump University and become a real-estate billionaire. Finance Trump Taj Majal with junk bonds, and I'll save Atlantic City. I'll sign your pledge, but I won't be held by it. Make me president, you'll get four more Scalias. Subject to terms and conditions, of course.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:13 PM on August 2, 2016 [12 favorites]

People who like Trump don't see scams and failures, they see a gutsy, risk-taking guy who wins every situation and will win for us. He's a ruthless bastard, which is why we want him on our side vs. the world.
posted by argybarg at 2:15 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Donald Trump isn't a businessman. He just plays one on TV.
posted by stolyarova at 2:15 PM on August 2, 2016 [19 favorites]

And Pence and McCain are scheduled to meet today. Heh.
posted by sallybrown at 2:15 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Well, there is NO evidence Hillary has a history of corruption. None. There are legions of people with stories, however, about how hard she has worked to help them, quietly, just because they needed help. She's been providing public service for pretty much her whole career.

Also, on the character front, besides the remarkable history Trump has of lying, fraud, and stiffing his suppliers, plus divorce and adultery, his overt racism, and his apparent draft dodging, there's the fact that his biographer says he is a sociopath.

Maybe we should meet this argument by talking character, straight up. I think HRC wins that comparison hands down too.
posted by bearwife at 2:17 PM on August 2, 2016 [18 favorites]

Theoretically, bearwife, yes. In practice, it's hard to penetrate the 25+ years of anti-HRC propaganda.
posted by stolyarova at 2:18 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

Remember, Donald Trump is on the record a couple years ago, saying that he thought it was ridiculous that people lost money or spent money on running for President; that he (and he alone) could actually make money while running for President.

That explains a lot of his actions.
posted by yesster at 2:19 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

At a Virginia rally, Trump said there was “something phony” about the polls that show Clinton in the lead.

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS LET THE UNSKEWING BEGIN!
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:19 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

More fuel to that fire: Clinton Camp And Allies Book $98M In TV Ads To Trump Allies' Less Than $1M

How much free publicity will he get in those states? For every ad the Clinton camp and allies air, he can tweet a response instantly, which will generate more online noise and possibly more television coverage.

Which is good, because

Republican presidential hopeful Donald Trump's campaign raised $3.1 million US from donors in May, more than doubling previous monthly hauls as he began soliciting donations to battle Democratic rival Hillary Clinton.

But with spending that outpaced inflows, the New York real estate magnate's campaign began June with just $1.29 million in cash, putting it well behind Clinton's $42-million war chest, according to federal disclosures filed late on Monday.

(CBC/Reuters, June 21, 2016)
posted by filthy light thief at 2:19 PM on August 2, 2016

Time: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: The Khans Should Be America’s Wake-Up Call
posted by Room 641-A at 2:19 PM on August 2, 2016 [11 favorites]

Trump is basically not spending any money on ads in swing states. I mean, like very little.

More fuel to that fire: Clinton Camp And Allies Book $98M In TV Ads To Trump Allies' Less Than $1M

Just a bit of idle armchair speculation: given that there's not that many days left, and given that there are only so many available ad minutes in a day of TV broadcasting....it would be pretty funny if the Clinton campaign were able to buy up every available TV slot in, say, Tampa between now and November, and the Trump campaign got totally shut out.
posted by gimonca at 2:20 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

I think that people who took a liking to Donald Trump are not going to lose that, and in fact statements denouncing him and party members withdrawing their endorsement are just going to calcify their liking of him.

Fortunately, the majority of people think somewhere from "Donald Trump? What is this bullshit" to total revulsion. And that won't change either.
posted by argybarg at 2:21 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

. . . He can attack dogs and cats, same problem.

Could be that's why this post about Hillary (and Obama) being rude to a dog handler is being pushed virally. Trump's being mean to veterans and bereaved mothers? Well, what's worse than being mean about a service dog? (Even if it's true, there's nothing in it to suggest either of the two of them actually hate dogs or servicemembers.)
posted by Countess Elena at 2:24 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

it would be pretty funny if the Clinton campaign were able to buy up every available TV slot in, say, Tampa between now and November, and the Trump campaign got totally shut out.

To Trump and his supporters, that'd be "More evidence of Crooked Hillary rigging the election". Because it's never his fault.
posted by downtohisturtles at 2:25 PM on August 2, 2016

Maybe we should meet this argument by talking character, straight up. I think HRC wins that comparison hands down too.

I dunno how much traction those "he stiffs his contractors" stories will have with someone who believes that Clinton is embezzling Russian-donated money from the Clinton Foundation, rigged the primary against Sanders, and took speaking fees from banks because she's in the pocket of Wall Street. And obviously she couldn't care less that she leaked classified information on her e-mails because doing the job well was not the point of being secretary of state, funneling money to her friends was. Oh yeah, and Travelgate, Whitewater, whatever, that stuff too, she's always been corrupt.

I just don't know what to say when he starts in on that stuff. I can send him links to websites that say that those things aren't actually true, but he can fire back a million links to websites that say they are. That's why I try to shift the ground to policy. Because Donald Trump himself is the source for his horrible policy ideas, and so there's no way to argue that the source isn't reliable. But yeah, it's not working. Though he's still a nice guy and arguing in a polite way, and I am getting a much better understanding of why the heck anyone would possibly support Trump in spite of everything, which slightly restores my faith in my fellow Americans. Slightly. I hope he keeps talking to me despite the fact that I get way more worked up than he does when we talk about politics. :-/
posted by OnceUponATime at 2:26 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Maybe ask them "Do you care if your beliefs are grounded in fact?"
posted by stolyarova at 2:27 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

If I said that, he probably wouldn't keep talking to me.
posted by OnceUponATime at 2:28 PM on August 2, 2016

They would say "yes" then quote a bunch of nonsense as fact.
posted by argybarg at 2:29 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

To you, the day Trump insulted a baby, dropped precipitously in the polls, was declared unfit for presidency by both a sitting president and a sitting congressman from his own party, claimed (the day after a story broke about his multiple Vietnam-era deferrals) he "always wanted" a Purple Heart (and being gifted one was "much easier"), declared himself in a coal-mining region to be close friends with mine owners, and of course continued his ongoing feud with gold star parents and just about everyone else was the worst day of his campaign. But for Donald Trump, it was Tuesday.
posted by ckape at 2:30 PM on August 2, 2016 [63 favorites]

I need to research cult deprogramming techniques.
posted by stolyarova at 2:30 PM on August 2, 2016 [13 favorites]

netw3rk:
[that feeling when] u sell your soul to the devil and he doesn't even make you good at playing the blues
posted by Atom Eyes at 2:31 PM on August 2, 2016 [10 favorites]

Time: Kareem Abdul-Jabbar: The Khans Should Be America’s Wake-Up Call

Much of my dystopian despair was the result of watching the Republican National Convention. I observed with shock and embarrassment mobs of people rally behind a man who gazes out at America with eyes, as Yeats put it, “as blank and pitiless as the sun.”

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's reference game is subtle and brilliant.
posted by J.K. Seazer at 2:32 PM on August 2, 2016 [25 favorites]

The only thing that's been working for me is engaging on the economy. Nearly all of the Republicans I know are very, very used to supporting the Rs due to tax policy (spending policy as an argument for Rs was gone after GWB). They already think Trump is a horrible, dumb self-centered baby, but are still uneasy about Hillary raising taxes. I say something like "Wouldn't you rather pay slightly more in taxes for 4 years than risk Trump crashing the global economy because he doesn't understand economic policy? Do you truly think someone who used bankruptcy as a repeated business strategy knows how to ensure the economy functions smoothly? Don't you think the cloud of fear and uncertainty around Trump is going to negatively affect the psyches of consumers and wreck consumer spending? If Clinton is so bad, there will be a good opportunity for someone to challenge her four years from now, and you can revisit the issue then."
posted by sallybrown at 2:33 PM on August 2, 2016 [12 favorites]

Everyone who cares enough about politics to start posting or writing about it believes truth is on their side, and that their opponents are asleep or self-delusional or mindlessly compliant with their political party. Everyone, including all of us who oppose Trump.

So both Trump and Hillary supporters would love to have their opponents answer these questions:

-- How can you tolerate such fundamental character flaws in your candidate?
-- How could you possibly believe anything your candidate says after such a long history of lying?
-- How could you simply refuse to believe the simple truth that you can find detailed in the articles I've read?
-- How could you possibly give any credence to the attacks on my candidate, given that they're just whipped up by the opposition?
posted by argybarg at 2:33 PM on August 2, 2016 [9 favorites]

^{b-but we're right}
posted by stolyarova at 2:36 PM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

God, this spectacle. I look away for an hour, come back, there's like more awesomeness everywhere.
posted by angrycat at 2:36 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Teju Cole: "It was true that the Adversary had brought other monsters into being. Each had been wicked in its own way, each had been an embodiment of one or other of the seven vices, and each had been strong and difficult to vanquish. Some of those monsters still roamed the land. But what made this new monster remarkable, indeed uniquely devious, was that it wasn’t strong at all. In fact, it was weak. "
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:37 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

@JuddLegum:

1. This election is a hot mess but today has been a fascinating game of political tactics
2. Trump’s attacks on the Khans risk major long term damage to the GOP brand. Forced establishment to ramp up criticism.
3. Both Ryan and McCain signaled, to various degrees, that they may withdraw their endorsement at some point if this keeps up.
4. So Trump goes out preemptively, and announces that HE doesn’t support Ryan or McCain.
5. This is the equivalent of Trump saying: “You aren’t breaking up with me, I’m breaking up with you.”
7. Now, if Ryan withdraws his endorsement it looks petty. He tolerated the attacks on a gold star family but not himself.
8. Enter Obama, who is playing this perfect.
9. He’s advising all Republicans to withdraw their endorsement from Trump, effectively making it impossible to do so.
10. So you have Trump and Obama working in concert to lock people like Ryan and McCain into their endorsement of Trump. Fascinating.
12. Ryan’s plan is completely falling apart. Trump's conduct is too outrageous to politely disagree with. Also, Trump won't play along.

posted by gwint at 2:39 PM on August 2, 2016 [72 favorites]

This is so incompetent that I'm thinking that he is more aiming for his backup plan: U.S. version of opposition oligarch/politician in exile. He could export his character brand into all the semi-hostile countries for fresh audiences and be a voice available for authorative insights on how U.S. is politically corrupt, weak and falling into abyss in every way in exchange for big contracts. Oppressive governments always need to point how others countries are no better and crooked in their own ways and Trump is quickly becoming the go-to guy for messages on how America is failing, voiced with strong man authority -- all useful currency. The only problem is that why bother? Is he really getting off from this?
posted by Free word order! at 2:40 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Tammy Duckworth: .@realdonaldtrump, this is how one usually looks when you are awarded the Purple Heart. Nothing easy about it.
posted by sallybrown at 2:40 PM on August 2, 2016 [55 favorites]

> We already know he's funneling as much of that money through his family and his own businesses as he can. Additionally, he flies back to one home or another on his own plane practically every night. Fuel and fees for that sort of thing gotta add up quick.

One day, not long after the election has ended and Trump has lost badly, dragging the Republican Party down in flames with him, he flies home on his private jet, gleefully counting all of the money he made grifting the suckers who supported him. Then the pilot announces that his nonstop flight to Tahiti will be making a brief layover in North Haverbrook. "North Haverbrook..." he thinks to himself as the jet begins its descent, ..."where have I heard that name before?"
posted by The Card Cheat at 2:41 PM on August 2, 2016 [11 favorites]

I will say this: The things I object to so strongly with Donald Trump are right there in his words and public record. Whereas what people hate about Hillary Clinton are in the shadows -- you just know the Clinton Foundation is up to no good, but they hide their wrongdoing. To me, a candidate publicly endorsing torture is not an ambiguous episode, where whatever the hell Benghazi was supposed to be is built up out of such tortured nuance I don't even understand what I'm supposed to be angry about.
posted by argybarg at 2:41 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Why should we trust @JuddLegum? It's clear he hates Spinal Tap and that's kind of a dealbreaker for me.
posted by phearlez at 2:43 PM on August 2, 2016

Perhaps this is just wishful thinking, but maybe Trump will increasingly focus on destroying the GOP because that's where he has some leverage, versus the actual election where he is hopefully on a continued downward trend. He does have a history of turning his attention towards those he can bully, even if it makes no sense to do so.
posted by snofoam at 2:43 PM on August 2, 2016 [11 favorites]

People who like Trump don't see scams and failures, they see a gutsy, risk-taking guy who wins every situation and will win for us.
This political webcomic sounded a perfect tone.
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:43 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Remember a few months back when Trump said, "I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn't lose voters"? He must look at his supporters with such disdain and disgust for getting him this far. I have no doubt he doesn't want to be President.
posted by wondermouse at 2:44 PM on August 2, 2016

Corey Robin: Trump's Indecent Proposal

One of the most storied, Aaron Sorkin-esque moments in American history—making the rounds this weekend after Donald Trump’s indecent comment on Khizr Khan’s speech at the DNC—is Joseph Welch’s famous confrontation with Joe McCarthy. The date was June 9, 1954; the setting, the Army-McCarthy hearings.

It was then and there that Welch exploded:
Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?

People love this moment. It’s when the party of the good and the great finally stared down the forces of the bad and the worse, affirming that this country was in fact good, if not great, rather than bad, if not worse. Within six months, McCarthy would be censured by the Senate. Within three years, he’d be dead.

Citing the Welch precedent for the Trump case, Politico perfectly captures the conventional wisdom about the confrontation:
For the first time, the bully had been called out in public by someone with no skeletons in his proverbial closet, whose integrity was unquestionable, and whose motives were purely patriotic. The audience in the senate chamber burst into applause.

But there are two little known elements about this famous confrontation that call that fairy tale into question.

Donald Trump is not something new.
This is the Republican Party as it has been for at least two decades - the attacks on veterans, the scams, the xenophobic nationalism.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:44 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

Oh god, Duffelblog is nailing it, but I can't link because this thread is killing my phone. "Donald Trump calls for Constitutional ban on Gold Star families talking about him."
posted by corb at 2:47 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

(Apologies if this was linked long ago but I can't manage every post in these threads, and I hadn't even found this thread until now.)

When I heard the bit where Trump is now suggesting if he loses it means the election is rigged, I just figured some part of his broken brain has realized he likely won't win, but the only possible reason his narcissism allows for is "the other side cheated."

But this Slate piece raises the specter of something more dangerous. His comments, and those of his advisers, seem to be openly encouraging violence in the wake of a Trump loss. He's beginning a narrative of de-legitimizing the election itself unless it turns out his way.

It's nice to think "only 98 more days of this mess til it's over" but 98 days from now might only be the start of something even uglier.
posted by dnash at 2:47 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

98 days from now might only be the start of something even uglier

It might be ugly, but it can't be any uglier than Trump winning.
posted by diogenes at 2:50 PM on August 2, 2016 [11 favorites]

Trump calls for Constitutional ban on Gold Star families talking about him
Military community must condemn radicalized veterans say Trump, Congressional Republicans
Navy to build USS Thanks Obama for deployment to every disaster
Good Idea Fairy revealed as O-3 in Pentagon basement
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:50 PM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

Here you go corb.

Trump calls for Constitutional ban on Gold Star families talking about him.
posted by waitingtoderail at 2:51 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

You are the best.
posted by corb at 2:55 PM on August 2, 2016

What could a possible Trump presidency look like? Here's the drug policy matinee.
posted by Talez at 2:56 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

We need a new thread. Trump is simply too outrageous for this one to keep up.
posted by bearwife at 2:56 PM on August 2, 2016 [9 favorites]

Make the Trump thread great again!
posted by diogenes at 2:59 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Ryan spox on Trump - 'Neither Speaker Ryan nor anyone on his team has ever asked for Donald Trump's endorsement.'

I didn't want to date you anyway! B-Baka!!
posted by stolyarova at 3:01 PM on August 2, 2016 [26 favorites]

We need a new thread.

Yes, preferably one long and strong enough to mend the gaping snag in the tattered fabric of reality.
posted by Atom Eyes at 3:04 PM on August 2, 2016 [26 favorites]

Hithlain Rope 2016
posted by stolyarova at 3:07 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

> Tammy Duckworth: .@realdonaldtrump, this is how one usually looks when you are awarded the Purple Heart. Nothing easy about it.

That is the burniest burn to burn in a long time.
posted by rtha at 3:09 PM on August 2, 2016 [15 favorites]

At this rate, we need a new subsite.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 3:10 PM on August 2, 2016 [40 favorites]

Also, I got off my ass this afternoon and called up the county Dem HQ and went in there and introduced myself and said I wanted to help.

I have an appointment to meet with the volunteer coordinator person on Tuesday.
posted by sara is disenchanted at 3:10 PM on August 2, 2016 [18 favorites]

I had a weird tiny little revelation earlier today as if some puzzle pieces finally snapped into place. Somehow I hadn't made the connection before: Donald Trump is Eric Cartman manifest in flesh.

He's not just like him. He IS him.

The entitlement, the anger, the thin skin, the constant stream of outrageous statements, the cowardice, the bullying of targets deemed weak, the desire for power and wealth, the obsession with how others perceive you, the denial of past actions and statements and the sincere belief in the fabricated truth of each denial, the sexism, the racism, the cynicism, the scam artistry, etc etc. I have yet to think of anything where the match isn't perfect.

Now if only the country can get him to Cartman's usual "screw you guys, I'm going home."
posted by Hairy Lobster at 3:10 PM on August 2, 2016 [27 favorites]

Remember those Swift Boat jerks claiming Kerry didn't really earn his Purple Heart?
posted by Cookiebastard at 3:13 PM on August 2, 2016 [22 favorites]

Well, Trump isn't nearly clever enough to do the whole chili thing.
posted by ckape at 3:14 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Donald Trump isn't a businessman. He just plays one on TV.

He's probably not even a billionaire.
posted by Celsius1414 at 3:14 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

I have forgotten almost everything about the 2004 election but the image of grinning idiots with Purple Heart bandaids at the RNC.
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:16 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

From TPM, the top ten reasons to doubt that Trump is anything like a billionaire.
posted by bearwife at 3:17 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Ivanka is going on FOX tonight at 7:00 to "daughtersplain."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:17 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

But this Slate piece raises the specter of something more dangerous. His comments, and those of his advisers, seem to be openly encouraging violence in the wake of a Trump loss. He's beginning a narrative of de-legitimizing the election itself unless it turns out his way.

Sam Wang also sounded a slightly ominous chord today:

Three months before the general election, why would a candidate claim that the election will be rigged? Either to foment unrest afterward, or to claim that he was robbed. In either case, the remark suggests that he expects to lose.

then follows it up with what may be the Platonic ideal of statistician commentary on the election:

The high accuracy of poll aggregation acts as a safeguard against blatant fraud. In the last few weeks of the Presidential campaigns of 2004, 2008, and 2012, poll aggregates (including those served up here) gave the correct winner in all states where the poll median was more than 1% for either candidate. Polls for individual Senate races and national Congressional popular vote also do very well in Presidential years – thought less so in off-years like 2010 and 2014.

because those people responsive to the idea that the US Presidential election is rigged will definitely believe that polls are legit and that poll aggregation is highly accurate.
posted by palindromic at 3:18 PM on August 2, 2016 [14 favorites]

Ex-top Christie aide backs Clinton over Trump
posted by downtohisturtles at 3:19 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

Scott Baio is currently trying to engage in a twitter fight with veteran comedian George Wallace. It's not going well for him:

George Wallace: Hey @ScottBaio you know that house from Charles in Charge was built by slaves, right? And that those weren't happy days?

Scott Baio: So funny I forgot to laugh. #Fail

George Wallace: Take a picture, it'll last longer. I know you are but what am I. Look at Chachi straight up dustin' off a classic!

Scott Baio: I have to. Aren't you like 107?

George Wallace: Old enough to have been at MLK's funeral & to know we ain't about to dial this country back to 1957.

George Wallace: Hell, I remember when there were actually laws to keep black folks from voting. Oh wait, that was LAST WEEK

posted by Atom Eyes at 3:21 PM on August 2, 2016 [61 favorites]

Mashable: Why you should care that Donald Trump wanted to kick a baby out of his rally

when parents brave every conceivable setback to participate in public life with a baby in tow, what they generally hope to receive from strangers is kindness. Parents, who often fear public shaming, hope you realize that it's impossible to prevent or stop every crying fit — and that it's unfeasible to stay home indefinitely because their child might become loud.

These expectations might be too high for ordinary people, but we certainly hope a presidential nominee could either withstand the cries without further comment or find another way to address them. A self-deprecating remark about his own experience as a father, for example, might have signaled his dissatisfaction without risking someone else's humiliation.

But what's most concerning about Trump's treatment of the baby's mother is that he first gave her reason to trust him, but then revoked that confidence to the audience's laughter. And while it might have been a joke, it had the specific purpose of playing the mother for the fool.

Ha Ha at the " self-deprecating remark about his own experience as a father,". Donald Trump has no experience as a father and he is unable to make self-deprecating remarks.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:25 PM on August 2, 2016 [27 favorites]

Holy crap, George Wallace is WRECKING him. It'd almost be sad if he wasn't such a loathsome human being.
posted by infinitywaltz at 3:25 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Dakota Meyer(Verified account)
‏
If @realDonaldTrump wants to be the Commander in Chief, he needs to act like one. And that cant start until he apologizes to the Khans.

Medal of Honor winner (and Sarah Palin son-in-law to be).
posted by macfly at 3:28 PM on August 2, 2016 [19 favorites]

A question we have all been asking: Why Donald Trump Is Trying to Ban Porn

Utah is “ground zero” for the anti-porn movement. Utah legislators have pushed for tough anti-porn regulations in both the Utah state legislature and in Congress, using the same rationale as the Enough is Enough pledge: that pornography is a “public health crisis.” Enough is Enough recently applauded Utah legislators’ efforts at taking on adult content.

And for the first time in decades, Utah is a swing state. Utahans are notably skeptical of Trump. They’re turned off by his personal history and his “brash” style, which they say conflicts with Utah’s deep Mormon roots. As a result, Trump came in third in Utah’s primary—and Utah’s support is now evenly split between Trump and Hillary Clinton, with Libertarian candidate Gary Johnson only a few points behind the leaders.

Trump, however, needs Utah not just to win but to maintain the slate of states Mitt Romney won in 2012.

I'm guessing he doesn't give a shit but somebody in his campaign is still trying to win...or at least do better than Romney. Any sort of win at this point might be looking good. That way Trump can brag that while the Democrats were bound to win because they rigged the system at least he beat Romeny.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:32 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

Just a reminder that it isn't just Trump who's being an soulless, worthless piece of shit these days: After Citing Orlando Shootings as a Reason to Run Again, Marco Rubio Will Speak at Anti-LGTBQ Event
posted by zombieflanders at 3:33 PM on August 2, 2016 [16 favorites]

Katy Tur just said something I hadn't considered and both makes perfect sense and is scary as hell.

Trump is keeping the focus on these sorts of contretemps purposefully because he can't talk about policy. He doesn't actually know anything so getting into these fights lets him avoid having to show his complete ignorance.
posted by Justinian at 3:37 PM on August 2, 2016 [24 favorites]

...getting into these fights lets him avoid having to show his complete ignorance

I beg to differ.
posted by zarq at 3:39 PM on August 2, 2016 [11 favorites]

If @realDonaldTrump wants to be the Commander in Chief, he needs to act like one. And that cant start until he apologizes to the Khans.

Medal of Honor winner (and Sarah Palin son-in-law to be).

A MEDAL OF HONOR WINNER. Has Trump finally met a critic he can't just slag off on the Twitters?
posted by sacre_bleu at 3:39 PM on August 2, 2016

A question I keep asking is why people are linking to Louise Mensch's Heat Street. Why not throw a link or two to Breitbart while you're at it.
posted by Yowser at 3:40 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trump is keeping the focus on these sorts of contretemps purposefully because he can't talk about policy.

See also avoiding debates at all costs.
posted by Artw at 3:40 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

zarq: You are right, I needed to be more clear. His complete ignorance about policy.
posted by Justinian at 3:40 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

I've seen this poem in multiple comments sections of news posts on Facebook today - I don't know the origin or the original author. As cheesy as it is, I love that someone took the time to write it and that Khan is already becoming a modern-day folk hero:

"His Pocket Constitution" by Anonymous

He stood before the country
not seeking applause or restitution
clutching on his person
his pocket Constitution.

Emblazoned with the words
that forged this nation's charter
never did he think
they would make his son a martyr.

He spoke about personal sacrifice
evoking both tears and smiles
explaining the Khan family's journey
of over 7000 miles.

But one man could not hear it
one man could not take him
one man took to Twitter
instead of praising, he did forsake him.

In the wake of so many lessons learned
from Concorde, Gettysburg, and Selma,
Stonewall, Kent State, Vietnam,
the Seventh Calvary's Little Big Horn dilemma,

Trump can offer nothing
except words of intolerance and hate
the only thing he knows how to do
is to verbally masturbate.

But Trump's words fall limp and impotent
despite his guttural elocution,
for he's no match for Khan's fortitude
and his pocket Constitution.

posted by sallybrown at 3:41 PM on August 2, 2016 [10 favorites]

Has Trump finally met a critic he can't just slag off on the Twitters?

If I may direct your attention to the last several days...
posted by zombieflanders at 3:41 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

Oh that's a winning strategy, Justinian.

Here is a little insight as to why D. Trump thinks the election will be rigged. In an interview with Sean Hannity yesterday, Trump said that there were some places where Romney received no votes. (Did you hear a dramatic Dun dun dah! in your head? No? Me neither.)

The Philadelphia Inquirer reported on Nov. 12, 2012, that there were 59 voting divisions in the city where “Mitt Romney received not one vote. Zero. Zilch.” In those districts, President Barack Obama got nearly 20,000 votes.

Although those results sparked concern among some Republicans about vote fraud, the Inquirer article noted that the districts in question — each with several hundred registered voters — were clustered in almost exclusively black sections of Philadelphia where the vast majority of registered voters are Democrats. In one of the divisions, for example, the Inquirer found just 12 Republicans on voter registration lists, and reporters couldn’t locate any who voted for Romney.

Gee. You treat people like shit and they don't vote for you. How about that.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:44 PM on August 2, 2016 [35 favorites]

Oh man, if Trump goes after Dakota Meyer he might just wake up Mama Grizzly.

*gets out popcorn*
posted by Hairy Lobster at 3:45 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

zarq: You are right, I needed to be more clear. His complete ignorance about policy.

I was being sarcastic, but sure. :)

The thing is... he's ignorant and uninformed but has been pretty transparent about it. Has he ever viewed that as a handicap? Do his supporters? He told Politico a few months back that he didn't want to waste time on policy because it would dilute his populist, hyper-focused message regarding illegal immigration, trade and fighting Islamic extremists.
posted by zarq at 3:46 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

It wasn't explicitly anti-Trump, rather pro-Clinton, but Medal of Honor recipient Florent Groberg spoke at the DNC, so you now have 2 recipients having chosen a side.
posted by feloniousmonk at 3:47 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Donald Trump is Eric Cartman manifest in flesh.

He's not just like him. He IS him.

And consider the way Cartman became the most popular character on the show, the way it was "Hah! Listen to the crap he says! I think it, he does it! " Both Cartman and Trump are Id fantasies for white men, which makes them really hard to get rid of.
posted by happyroach at 3:47 PM on August 2, 2016 [24 favorites]

A question I keep asking is why people are linking to Louise Mensch's Heat Street.

I did it because the article had something relevant to say. Sorry if you don't like the source.

Oh man, if Trump goes after Dakota Meyer he might just wake up Mama Grizzly.

Well I'm still waiting to hear why Palin, who was an early and enthusiastic supporter and who stumped with Trump, was not invited to speak at the RNC either in person or by video.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:49 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

Oh man, if Trump goes after Dakota Meyer he might just wake up Mama Grizzly.

Of all the post-postmodern horrors that 2016 has offered me, cheering for Sarah Palin would be among the strangest.
posted by stolyarova at 3:49 PM on August 2, 2016 [55 favorites]

Well I'm still waiting to hear why Palin, who was an early and enthusiastic supporter and who stumped with Trump, was not invited to speak at the RNC either in person or by video.

"OK, we'll take out the support for Ukraine in the platform, just promise she won't be within a thousand miles of Pennsylvania."
posted by Celsius1414 at 3:53 PM on August 2, 2016

I'd seriously consider quitting my job and taking up as a bookie if there's a Trump-Palin throwdown.
posted by tclark at 3:55 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

More details on the rigging stance. San Diego Union Tribune:

Asked about it ANOTHER time on Tuesday, and Trump doubled down in an interview with a Florida reporter.

"We've seen a lot of things over the years and now without the IDs, and, you know, the voter IDs and all the things that are going on and some bad court cases have come down."

"I just hear things and I just feel it."

He hears things and he feels them, guys. He feels that the election will be rigged months before it happens. I think he might need to see an internist and get some pills for those "feelings." It might just be too much KFC and Taco Bowls.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:57 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Unintentionally one of the greatest First Amendment jokes in history:

Trump: Khizr Khan "has no right to stand in front of millions of people and claim I have never read the Constitution."
posted by vverse23 at 3:59 PM on August 2, 2016 [37 favorites]

Wow, the whole taco bowl thing seems like a memory of a more innocent time.
posted by peacheater at 3:59 PM on August 2, 2016 [30 favorites]

Trump: Palin not attending RNC because Alaska 'a long ways away'
posted by ianhattwick at 4:00 PM on August 2, 2016

Yeah, "remember when racist pandering was the worst thing?"
posted by stolyarova at 4:00 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trump seems disnclined to tangle with Warren Buffet, too, which also gives the lie to 'he's a thin-skinned reaction machine who doesn't think before he tweets'. I'm more and more inclined to think he's happy and deliberately engaging with people he can bully, and sees the extended coverage of this as just more days when he hasn't had to confront policy, or his own record.

Whether he thinks he can push this out for 97 more days, who can say. Whether he thinks he can win that way, it sure doesn't look like it.
posted by Devonian at 4:01 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

According to Jennifer Davis, the marketing director for the Greater Columbus Convention Center facility, “The event agreement signed by Trump’s people was executed Friday evening. The Trump people said they expected 800 people plus 200 media. There were several individuals from Trump’s campaign at the meeting. When the maximum capacity was made clear by the city fire marshal at 1,000, that was when the Trump campaign decided it would be a [smaller] ‘Town Hall’ meeting.”

Columbus Assistant Fire Chief Jim Cannell confirmed that fire officials met with Trump’s staff Friday. “The space was limited to 1,000 people due to safety concerns. They knew that was the plan, that it was 1,000 people max,” Cannell said, adding: “We are just doing our job.”

They've even got copies of the signed contracts that clearly state 1,000 people. Do not ask venue management to take the fall for your screwups; they will burn you.
posted by zachlipton at 4:02 PM on August 2, 2016 [26 favorites]

Meanwhile, while Trump is throwing a temperature tantrum over babies and purple hearts and president Obama's remarks, Hillary Clinton is planning to increase the CDCs investment in PrEP for HIV prevention based on the evidence of effectiveness. Y'know, like a presidential candidate.
posted by Sophie1 at 4:03 PM on August 2, 2016 [40 favorites]

Gee. You treat people like shit and they don't vote for you. How about that.

I think you mean, "Gee. You treat people like shit and gerrymander them into districts to contain all the people who don't vote for you, and nobody in those districts votes for you. How about that.".
posted by tocts at 4:04 PM on August 2, 2016 [19 favorites]

I wonder if, back in 1999 when Ryan and Chris Finley were sitting around thinking up a name for their company, they ever pictured Andrea Mitchell saying the words, "The latest results from Survey Monkey...."
posted by Room 641-A at 4:05 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

One of the many reasons Trump pisses me off is that he refuses to do any difficult or uncomfortable emotional labour, no matter how easy it would be or whether it would help him.

Empathy for migrant workers? No. Sympathy for a parent with a crying child? Forget about it. Apologizing for his cruel remarks to the distraught parents of a soldier who died while on active duty in a combat zone? Puh-leez. Friggin' endorsing politicians from the same party? Impossible!

That level of entitlement blows my mind.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 4:05 PM on August 2, 2016 [14 favorites]

Meanwhile, while Trump is throwing a temperature tantrum

This is kind of a hot take.
posted by dersins at 4:08 PM on August 2, 2016 [31 favorites]

oops.
posted by Sophie1 at 4:16 PM on August 2, 2016

To be fair he did actually throw an actual temperature tantrum about a week ago.
posted by Hairy Lobster at 4:17 PM on August 2, 2016 [11 favorites]

(that is the joke)
posted by cashman at 4:18 PM on August 2, 2016

Politico did the research on the fire marshal situation: Documents Show Trump Officials Agreed to Limit Rally Size, Contradicting the Candidate

Oh, and that Colorado fire marshal Trump accused of being a Democrat? He’s a Republican.

Just my opinion, Fire Marshal-gate is the best -gate of the day. Yes, even better than Baby-gate. Again, just my opinion.
posted by vverse23 at 4:18 PM on August 2, 2016 [12 favorites]

"His Pocket Constitution" by Anonymous

I wanted to like this, really I did, and I agree with the sentiment.

that scansion though
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:18 PM on August 2, 2016 [28 favorites]

Here's a random thought: every two years (and especially every four) local TV stations expect to receive a shitload of money from political ads. I don't particularly like this -- it's a large-scale redistribution of wealth from individual donors to media companies -- but that's how it is.

Now, there's conventionally a "Chinese wall" between the ad-selling side and the news side of media businesses, but if the Trump campaign isn't buying ads during the evening news at WBFK or wherever in central Ohio, there are going to be executives glaring at spreadsheets and feeling stiffed of the money they expected, and that mood may leak into the news side.

(It may become tricky for the Clinton campaign and associated supporters because they end up with all the TV ads.)
posted by holgate at 4:19 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

Trump spokesperson Katrina Pearson just said on CNN that Obama's changing of rules of engagement probably cost Capt. Khan his life. In 2004.
posted by sacre_bleu at 4:19 PM on August 2, 2016 [37 favorites]

I'm also enjoying Khan-Purple Heart-MOH-gate. Every day it reveals new facets of delicious schadenfreude.
posted by gofargogo at 4:20 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

I wanted to like this, really I did, and I agree with the sentiment.

that scansion though

Yeah, no, sorry but as much as I agree with a lot of what that poem says, it is a terrible poem.
posted by dersins at 4:20 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

If we're talking about political music/poetry, it is incumbent upon me to share the best possible rendition of The End of the World.
posted by stolyarova at 4:22 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Obama's changing of rules of engagement probably cost Capt. Khan his life. In 2004.

I can't watch the clip because still at work but according to the retweets (or replies? whatever the twitter responses are) Wolf Blitzer didn't even call the Trump spokesperson out on it??!?!?!??

That's not even refusing to do journalism. That's taking journalism, drop-kicking it down a flight of stairs and then torching the building.
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:25 PM on August 2, 2016 [37 favorites]

From the Politico link:

Indeed, further undercutting Trump’s allegations, the agreement to have a maximum capacity of 1,000 attendees appeared to have been confirmed by Trump’s own organizers prior to the event. “The event in Columbus is a Town Hall so it is purposefully limited seating!” said a tweet from USAforTrump2016 early on Monday, hours before the event began. “Stay tuned and check the Live Stream!”

I really hope that any venue that Trump rents from here on out gets full payment up front plus video testimony on record of the Trump campaign agreeing to the terms of usage. Maybe even a penalty clause so that if Trump makes a bad remark about the mayor, the venue, the town or the fire marshal an extra 1000% is added to the bill.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:26 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

I wanted to like this, really I did, and I agree with the sentiment.
that scansion though...
Yeah, no, sorry but as much as I agree with a lot of what that poem says, it is a terrible poem...

Oh, yeah? Well

The poem's rubber and you're glue
Whatever you say bounces off the poem, richochets around the room for a bit, then doubles back and sticks (again, because you're made out of glue) to you
posted by Atom Eyes at 4:29 PM on August 2, 2016 [9 favorites]

Wolf Blitzer

Poodle Snoozer more like.
posted by Artw at 4:29 PM on August 2, 2016 [22 favorites]

oh are we doing politically appropriate poetry now?

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I’ve tasted of desire
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:29 PM on August 2, 2016 [9 favorites]

And Judge Curiel just denied Trump summary judgment in the Trump U case.

Because the thing the Trump campaign needed right now is more motivation for the candidate to say something stupid and racist.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:31 PM on August 2, 2016 [14 favorites]

Obama's changing of rules of engagement probably cost Capt. Khan his life. In 2004.
Thanks, Obama, for going back in time and not stopping W's stupid war.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:31 PM on August 2, 2016 [13 favorites]

I'd seriously consider quitting my job and taking up as a bookie if there's a Trump-Palin throwdown.

SaladShooters at 20 paces. Oh, the humanity!
posted by JackFlash at 4:31 PM on August 2, 2016

This Is Just To Say

I have eaten
the heart
that was in
the country

and which
you were probably
saving
for your children

Forgive me
It was delicious
so sweet
and so cold
posted by stolyarova at 4:33 PM on August 2, 2016 [35 favorites]

So maybe Wolf Blitzer is not into newssplaining?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:34 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

i don't know what that means but I know i don't like it
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:34 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

I can't watch the clip because still at work but according to the retweets (or replies? whatever the twitter responses are) Wolf Blitzer didn't even call the Trump spokesperson out on it??!?!?!??

That's not even refusing to do journalism. That's taking journalism, drop-kicking it down a flight of stairs and then torching the building.

Wolf Blitzer is access journalism made flesh.
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:34 PM on August 2, 2016 [13 favorites]

(delicious sweet cold hearts, that is, not newssplaining)
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:35 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Wolf Blitzer didn't even call the Trump spokesperson out on it??!?!?!??

I watched it (while gnashing my teeth) live - he came back on after the commercial and made it a point to fact check what she said, and he said Captain Khan died in 2004, 5 years before Barack Obama took office.
posted by cashman at 4:36 PM on August 2, 2016 [16 favorites]

did he have to wiki what year obama was elected? WHY.
posted by tivalasvegas at 4:38 PM on August 2, 2016 [12 favorites]

The Rude Pundit (guest post): Your Vote Has Worth and Meaning
posted by homunculus at 4:38 PM on August 2, 2016

If he called her on it in real time he'd be engaging in "GOTCHA" journalism. Wolf hates being accused of that.
posted by wabbittwax at 4:40 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

Yet more Charles Pierce: Donald Trump Is Leaving Paul Ryan and John McCain Out to Dry (Again):

All three of these people [Ryan, McCain, Ayotte] deserve what they get from this towering ingrate, because they've been trying to okey-doke their way past the immutable fact that the same Republican voters that elected them are the ones that nominated a vulgar talking yam. (If he does duck the debates, will he be a Candy-Assed Yam? Signs point to "yes.") None of them deserve an ounce of sympathy, and Ryan especially deserves to lose next week, because the only reason he hasn't jumped ship on the nominee is because a Trump win is the only chance he'll get to starve granny properly. The guy running against him, Paul Nehlen, is running on the basis that Paul Ryan is Not Conservative Enough.

posted by palindromic at 4:47 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Blitzer really is terrible. When you think of the men who came before him: Edward R. Murrow, Walter Cronkite, Harry Reasoner, Dan Rather, Tom Brokaw, Peter Jennings, Mike Wallace. He couldn't carry their clipboards.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:48 PM on August 2, 2016 [12 favorites]

so much depends
upon

the orange hate
monger

glazed with hair
spray

before the white
people
posted by dis_integration at 4:49 PM on August 2, 2016 [21 favorites]

Like Trump, Scott Adams cannot keep his mouth shut with regards to the Khans.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:50 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

If he called her on it in real time he'd be engaging in "GOTCHA" journalism. Wolf hates being accused of that.

Blitzer's Razor says to never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by a news anchor being cryogenically frozen during the Gulf War and reanimated during a Sweeps Week publicity stunt gone wrong.
posted by tonycpsu at 4:52 PM on August 2, 2016 [13 favorites]

They've even got copies of the signed contracts that clearly state 1,000 people.

They got a $1500 discount on the hiring fee because it's "under renovation". And the contract demanded full payment up front.
posted by holgate at 4:53 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oh great. Now Chris Christie is talking about the system being rigged.

I have to admit to getting a big laugh at this line: [...] after I lost the presidential race, when I was named chairman of the Trump transition..

Christie, honey, you didn't lose the presidential race because you were never in the race. You were in the semi-final heats so to speak. The race to enter the race. Also, "Chairman of the Trump transition?" What pray tell is he transitioning to? Or I should I not ask. Is that going on your C.V.?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:00 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

Politico did the research on the fire marshal situation: Documents Show Trump Officials Agreed to Limit Rally Size, Contradicting the Candidate

Smaller venue = instant photo coverage of yooge lines of people who couldn't get in = skewed appearance of popularity. It's a much better spin and lasting impact.
posted by mochapickle at 5:01 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

The Late Show with Stephen Colbert: WERD: What The F? "Stephen figured out how Donald Trump makes everyone forget about his controversial statements: by saying something even crazier."

How Colbert Got Away With Calling Trump a 'P.O.S.' and a 'D-Bag' on TV
posted by homunculus at 5:01 PM on August 2, 2016

Like Trump, Scott Adams

Scott Adams was born to be a Trump supporter.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:02 PM on August 2, 2016 [15 favorites]

> when I was named chairman of the Trump transition

No, no, no! You were named Reek! You have to remember your name!
posted by nicepersonality at 5:03 PM on August 2, 2016 [26 favorites]

Donald Trump and City of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, Now Also Feuding

At a rally in Virginia, Trump said the city of 49,673, which he had flown into the night before, “looked like a war zone where you (once had) these massive plants,” according to the Associated Press.

Tuesday night, Harrisburg fired back, saying in a statement that Trump made “an unfortunate mistake” disparaging the city “after a mere glance from the window of his airplane.”

His winning agenda of alienating individuals wasn't working fast enough so now he is ramping it up to slagging off entire towns.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:05 PM on August 2, 2016 [25 favorites]

My favorite Colbert clip of this cycle is still this preshow off-the-cuff remark.
posted by carrienation at 5:07 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

At today's Trump rally in VA a Trump supporter answers #LoveTrumpsHate chant with HATE WILL WIN before shouted down

This is the new normal.
posted by zombieflanders at 5:09 PM on August 2, 2016 [34 favorites]

> Oh great. Now Chris Christie is talking about the system being rigged.

That's consistent with his RNC speech calling for the criminalization of political disagreement. Christie is as enthusiastic about hobbling the norms of our political system to his advantage as Trump is.
posted by homunculus at 5:09 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Harrisburg has some bad parts like any city but it's actually kind of a cool little town.

It's no Lancaster, of course.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 5:10 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

Stephen Colbert and CBS have realized Trump fans aren't watching his somewhat struggling show anyway and that taking the gloves off is at least attracting attention. Remember what Les Moonves, head of CBS, told us months ago, "it may not be good for America, but it's damn good for CBS."
posted by zachlipton at 5:11 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Scott Adams was born to be a Trump supporter.

Speaking of Scott Adams, this almost made me like Bill Kristol:

@ScottAdamsSays: If experience is necessary for being president, name a political topic I can't master in one hour under the tutelage of top experts.

‏@BillKristol: Tweeting.

LOL not really. Kristol is a fucking tool.

But it is a pretty sick burn.
posted by dersins at 5:13 PM on August 2, 2016 [25 favorites]

I want Kevin Spacey to read that poem to me.

Very doable. Based on the preview I saw for NINE LIVES there are no lines that Kevin Spacey won't read for money.
posted by phearlez at 5:14 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

At today's Trump rally in VA a Trump supporter answers #LoveTrumpsHate chant with HATE WILL WIN before shouted down

Reminds me of the Spanish fascist chant "VIVA LA MUERTE".
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:16 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

I was talking to my husband earlier and I became completely discombobulated when I realized that the DNC ended less than a week ago. Then I thought back to this morning and realized that today's news began less than 12 hours ago. This is going to be a long 100 days.
posted by gatorae at 5:17 PM on August 2, 2016 [23 favorites]

Trump on FOX says he has right to go after Khan bc they attacked him first

Go get 'em Don! You're gonna win this one!
posted by argybarg at 5:28 PM on August 2, 2016 [22 favorites]

Now the mods are resorting to taking the server down for brief periods of time to keep us from commenting in this thread. It's shameful political manipulation. They're a bunch of Democrats I'm sure. MeFi posters for truth will make MetaFilter great again!
posted by zachlipton at 5:29 PM on August 2, 2016 [27 favorites]

Listen I know about not jinxing and all but Trump is really going down in flames here
posted by zutalors! at 5:29 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Now the mods are resorting to taking the server down for brief periods of time to keep us from commenting in this thread. It's shameful political manipulation. They're a bunch of Democrats I'm sure. MeFi posters for truth will make MetaFilter great again!

I know this tirade was facetious but god damn it every word in it is the absolute truth.
posted by Talez at 5:32 PM on August 2, 2016

Wolf Blitzer isn't a journalist, he's a current events entertainer who seeks to find conflict in every story, and if none exists, create it. I'll never forgive the disrespect he showed my campus in the hours after the Virginia Tech shootings by interviewing one grieving student after another, asking leading questions to try to get them to blame the administration, searching for anyone who would help him tell the story he'd already decided to tell. Good for him for actually bothering to do the barest minimum fact-checking in this case, but his style of "journalism" is what helped create Trump in the first place. He's a walking mockery of the Fourth Estate who wields a silver beard as a substitute for gravitas.
posted by biogeo at 5:32 PM on August 2, 2016 [44 favorites]

(I am so grateful for the moderation on this site right now. Mefi has become basically my only source for political news in this cycle, and it's low-key amazing how great these posts and threads are working.)
posted by box at 5:32 PM on August 2, 2016 [53 favorites]

you've heard of bugs infesting computers? - this is a case of infestation by cheetoids
posted by pyramid termite at 5:33 PM on August 2, 2016

Listen I know about not jinxing and all but Trump is really going down in flames here

My head is spinning. I mean - look. Yeah, it's early days and he still has support. But every day another influential Republican publicly denounces him, and there's no take-backsies on that. And it is crystal clear by now that Trump is literally incapable of apologizing or even minimizing damage - all he can do is dig in his heels. And it looks like the media has at least begun to smell blood in the water and realize that any Trump news, whether positive or negative, will get them clicks.

Yeah yeah. It's early. But Trump is not doing anything he would need to do to gain more supporters than he already has, while literally constantly doing things that bleed him of them. He is not going to pivot. It is not a possibility. Meanwhile, everyone from pro-life mommy bloggers to Republican members of congress is starting to not just denounce Trump, but endorse Clinton.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:35 PM on August 2, 2016 [17 favorites]

The Art of the (Bad) Deal: Trump’s business career is a long, long list of bankruptcies, defaults and deceptions.
posted by homunculus at 5:35 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

(I'm extremely grateful to the mods too. More just amused that we just had 11 minutes without comments in this thread thanks to a little server blip, which has to be a record.)
posted by zachlipton at 5:35 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

I find this Trump fellow rather unpleasant.
posted by mazola at 5:37 PM on August 2, 2016 [13 favorites]

I'm as hopeful and as hoping as anyone that Trump will go down in flames, and I suspect increased media scrutiny will help this happen. But what are the chances the media will reflect on its own complicity in Trump's rise to the candidacy, AND take steps to prevent itself from playing that role in the future?
posted by mollweide at 5:38 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

STATEMENT FROM JOHN McCAIN REGARDING THE KHAN FAMILY

[...] “In the end, I am morally bound to speak only to the things that command my allegiance, and to which I have dedicated my life’s work: the Republican Party, and more importantly, the United States of America. I will not refrain from doing my utmost by those lights simply because it may benefit others with whom I disagree.

“I claim no moral superiority over Donald Trump. I have a long and well-known public and private record for which I will have to answer at the Final Judgment, and I repose my hope in the promise of mercy and the moderation of age. I challenge the nominee to set the example for what our country can and should represent.

“Arizona is watching. It is time for Donald Trump to set the example for our country and the future of the Republican Party. While our Party has bestowed upon him the nomination, it is not accompanied by unfettered license to defame those who are the best among us.

“Lastly, I’d like to say to Mr. and Mrs. Khan: thank you for immigrating to America. We’re a better country because of you. And you are certainly right; your son was the best of America, and the memory of his sacrifice will make us a better nation – and he will never be forgotten.”

posted by Joe in Australia at 5:38 PM on August 2, 2016 [25 favorites]

11 minutes without comments in this thread

I used the time to clear huge swathes of my rss feeds

#whatIDidinTheMeFiBlackout
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:39 PM on August 2, 2016 [9 favorites]

This may already have been said, but what I'm worrying about lately is that when (God willing) Trump either bails out or just loses badly, he'll make it all about cheating, rigging, unfair and underhanded tactics by his various enemies, and that seems likely to unleash a wave of real ugliness and violence from his committed supporters. I've literally been wondering if Hillary's being a woman would make her more or less likely to be targeted by an assassin who considers her a usurper.
posted by uosuaq at 5:41 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

The graph of how much I respect John McCain took a huge dip around '08. While it hasn't reached campaign-finance-bill levels, it's mostly been on an upswing ever since.
posted by box at 5:41 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

McCain:

In the end, I am morally bound to speak only to the things that command my allegiance, and to which I have dedicated my life’s work: the Republican Party, and more importantly, the United States of America. I will not refrain from doing my utmost by those lights simply because it may benefit others with whom I disagree.

You are a lying, cowardly, morally bankrupt, careerist fascism-enabler.
posted by tivalasvegas at 5:44 PM on August 2, 2016 [36 favorites]

I've literally been wondering if Hillary's being a woman would make her more or less likely to be targeted by an assassin who considers her a usurper.

She's said that the reason she picked Kaine is he could fulfill the duties. She knows the risk she's taking.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:45 PM on August 2, 2016 [18 favorites]

I have mentioned this before in different threads but I have recently moved to central Ohio and decided to volunteer for Clinton. This is kind of a big deal for me, personally, because up until tonight political belief is something I have talked about but not something I have done.

Tonight was a phone banking event in small town Ohio, calling supporters who had already signed up for the DNC to make sure they were voting and to ask for volunteers. I am extremely comfortable on the phone but there was some anxiety leading up to the event - would I represent Hilary well? It’s so dumb, right? But it was a concern.

Because of the nature of the list I was calling people who were probable supporters but ... man, can I tell you how good it felt to talk hear, “Yes, of course I’m voting for Hilary!” when I asked if the Democratic party could count on there support? Like, down in my soul it felt good to hear other voices say “Yes, I stand with you!” from young voters such as myself to elder women who proudly relayed stories of their own volunteering efforts.

MeFi, if you’re feeling down about this election thing I beg you to please talk to fellow voters like this. It doesn’t change the fact that there’s a bunch of hateful Trump supporters out there (and probably plenty of hateful Hillary supporters, but for different reasons) but it’s so good to hear again and again “Of course I’m voting for Hillary!” like it’s the most natural thing in the world.

It was great, and I can’t wait to canvass this weekend and phone bank next week. Certainly volunteering will have its ups and downs over time but it was exactly what I needed on a day like today when Trumpzilla has been on the rampage and it feels like sanity in America has all but evaporated.
posted by Tevin at 5:47 PM on August 2, 2016 [62 favorites]

I have zero respect for McCain until he's willing to say that Donald Trump is not fit to be president. History will not judge him (or Ryan, or McConnell, or Priebus, or any of the rest of them) kindly for choosing party and power over the health of the republic.
posted by EarBucket at 5:47 PM on August 2, 2016 [31 favorites]

My first exposure to John McCain was as a member of the Keating Five (and the only Republican in a Democrat-dominated scandal AND the only one who continuted his political campaign after the dust cleared). I considered his campaign-finance-reform period was either an attempt at karmic redemption or political redemption (more likely the latter). So, he was never on my veryshort list of modern-day Honest Republicans.
posted by oneswellfoop at 5:48 PM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

McCain talks in that statement about standing before his Maker at the final judgment. He should reflect on what God is going to think about his endorsing Trump.
posted by EarBucket at 5:48 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

Wolf Blitzer isn't a journalist, he's a current events entertainer who seeks to find conflict in every story, and if none exists, create it.

I just want to point out: way, waaaay at the beginning of this election cycle, I saw Blitzer interview Debbie Wasserman Schultz and he kept dismissing any topic but Hillary Clinton's eventual victory and how the DNC planned to run her in the general. DWS was the one who repeatedly pointed out to him that they had multiple candidates at the time.

There's not a chance he was in on any favoritism. There just isn't. That would require a level of forethought and wit that he has never demonstrated while covering any other story in the last ten years. Dude is so blisteringly incompetent he actually made DWS look like the fair and impartial one.

People have joked about Don Lemon and others at CNN, but if there's one on-air person they need to bounce to improve that network, it's Wolf Blitzer.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 5:50 PM on August 2, 2016 [13 favorites]

Has anyone linked this tweet about Manafort and Trump staff?
posted by Brainy at 5:50 PM on August 2, 2016 [18 favorites]

I lost all respect for John McCain when he cuddled up to Gee-Dubs after his campaign won the South Carolina primary by funding robocalls accusing McCain of fathering an interracial illegitimate child. They went after his own kid and he responded by going along with the most career advantageous path, so fuck him.
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:52 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

Brainy, that gave me joy not only for the election odds but for my bedside reading table next year. Not gonna lie, as long as Hillary wins the election rundowns are going to be fun, in a true-crime sort of way.
posted by argybarg at 5:55 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

I lost all respect for John McCain when he cuddled up to Gee-Dubs after his campaign won the South Carolina primary by funding robocalls accusing McCain of fathering an interracial illegitimate child.

Honestly, by the standards of this campaign, that's starting to look positively quaint.
posted by biogeo at 5:57 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

Has anyone linked this tweet about Manafort and Trump staff?

I refuse to let myself feel the unbridled joy I wanna feel about this until we get some confirmation
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:57 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

"John McCain! What a maverick. Someone find out what fork he used on his salad. Because I bet it wasn't a salad fork. There's no predicting him." -Colbert
posted by AndrewInDC at 5:57 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'm starting to worry that they're going to try to replace Trump with someone else.
posted by peacheater at 5:58 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

I hope you are all following Owen Ellickson on Twitter. He is hilarious:

RYAN: You're not endorsing me?
TRUMP: I'm just not there yet, Paul.
RYAN: But I endorsed you!
TRUMP: Of course you endorsed me! I'm terrific
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 5:58 PM on August 2, 2016 [15 favorites]

Wow, tough audience. McCain just said that Trump doesn't deserve the nomination and that he's going to Hell. Is there anything else he could do to redeem himself?
posted by Joe in Australia at 5:59 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Has anyone linked this tweet about Manafort and Trump staff?

I suspect that's because (Dem) managers make their nut on media buys.
posted by ChurchHatesTucker at 5:59 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm starting to worry that they're going to try to replace Trump with someone else.

Who's 'they'?
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:59 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Is there anything else he could do to redeem himself?

Say he's not going to vote for him?
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 6:00 PM on August 2, 2016 [20 favorites]

Wow, tough audience. McCain just said that Trump doesn't deserve the nomination and that he's going to Hell. Is there anything else he could do to redeem himself?

He's still supporting him.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:01 PM on August 2, 2016 [15 favorites]

Wow, tough audience. McCain just said that Trump doesn't deserve the nomination and that he's going to Hell. Is there anything else he could do to redeem himself?

Stop waiting for Donald Trump "to set the example for our country and the future of the Republican Party" and actively encourage people to vote for someone else? If that loses McCain his seat, then so be it.
posted by zachlipton at 6:02 PM on August 2, 2016 [12 favorites]

Who's 'they'?

The RNC.
posted by peacheater at 6:03 PM on August 2, 2016

Is there anything else he could do to redeem himself?

Not endorsing him would be enough for me.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 6:03 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

But he really, really wants to win that seat.

Oh, shit, you're all right. I said 'more respect,' but I still don't have much. Fuck that dude.
posted by box at 6:05 PM on August 2, 2016

> McCain just said that Trump doesn't deserve the nomination and that he's going to Hell.

The strongest statement I can reconcile with his words and actions would be “McCain said something that he hoped could be interpreted as meaning that, but only by people who already believe it,” and even that seems too bold by half.
posted by nicepersonality at 6:06 PM on August 2, 2016 [9 favorites]

Maybe McCain could ask Ted Cruz for pointers on how to show some backbone....

what fucked-up world is this that we're living in?
posted by wabbittwax at 6:08 PM on August 2, 2016 [14 favorites]

His winning agenda of alienating individuals wasn't working fast enough so now he is ramping it up to slagging off entire towns.

"You know we can hear you, right?"
posted by holgate at 6:09 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

If Trump drops out of the race I will actually dance. I have never actually dance before, but I absolutely will if this happens.
posted by Tevin at 6:10 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

Ted Cruz is an interesting case. He made a huge gamble at the RNC, and the snap judgment was that he made a mistake. But his bet was that Trump would self-destruct and become increasingly toxic.

Dershowitz didn't call him his smartest student ever for no reason.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 6:11 PM on August 2, 2016 [21 favorites]

Times like this make me wish there were some German word for delighting in the suffering of others.
posted by snofoam at 6:11 PM on August 2, 2016 [27 favorites]

I have never actually dance before, but I absolutely will if this happens.

You should try it, it's pretty awesome.
posted by a box and a stick and a string and a bear at 6:11 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

For a party that has become obsessed with not being "politically correct," this mealymouthed 'Oh, well, he doesn't speak for ME or the PARTY, but *cough*Istillendorsehim*cough*' is such pathetic, WEAK, embarrassing bullshit. Fuck John McCain and all the rest until they wake up, remember that they are Americans first and Republicans second, and come out and say in plain English that Trump absolutely cannot be trusted under any circumstances.
posted by gatorae at 6:12 PM on August 2, 2016 [32 favorites]

McCain just said that Trump doesn't deserve the nomination and that he's going to Hell.

Uhh, no. He said, "I cannot emphasize enough how deeply I disagree with Mr. Trump’s statement" about the Khan family. You read the rest of that into the 6 other paragraphs that said nothing else about Trump, but really, really wanted you to think he did. He disagrees with just this one statement by Trump, but fully endorses him to be President in every other respect, including trusting Trump to pick a Supreme Court justice. That's why no one gives McCain credit for anything, he always speaks from both sides of his mouth to be portrayed as the most reasonably Republican, while never, ever, actually disagreeing with the worst proposals by Trump, Cruz, W, or whoever is the rightmost standard bearer de jour.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:14 PM on August 2, 2016 [22 favorites]

Wow. So all restraints are off and we are going full on kamikaze Trump. I'm excited for tomorrow.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:15 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yeah, McCain's statement is essentially "I am SO ANGRY I'm issuing this non-consequential condemnation and please don't think I'm being disloyal." I imagine he had his staffers up all night trying to thread that needle. I can't see where this is supposed to buy back any of the respect I've lost for him since 2000.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:16 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

John McCain and Paul Ryan are waiting until their primaries are over. And I'm sure they're also banking on Trump getting far worse. No one will remember two months from now if they waited an extra week or two to un-endorse.

That's the strategic part. Now, the moral question...
posted by argybarg at 6:16 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

remember when McCain 'suspended his campaign' and unsuspended it two days later after everyone told him he was an idiot
posted by theodolite at 6:17 PM on August 2, 2016 [16 favorites]

Fun story, I saw McCain in the grocery store this year on Super Bowl Sunday. He was just there, puttering around like the most stereotypical old white man you can possibly imagine, buying, I swear to God, saltine crackers and three containers of yogurt. I thought for a second that was all he was getting, but I saw him 2 aisles later getting ready to check out, and Cindy was there with him with a cart full of stuff.

I really wanted to go up and say something to him, like you've all imagined doing. "HOW THE FUCK COULD YOU INFLICT SARAH PALIN ON US ALL YOU FUCKING WANKER" was the leader, but then several people came up to him to shake his hand and I decided I didn't want to be on cable TV or arrested instead of going to a Super Bowl party.

The moral of that story is, Fuck John McCain.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:19 PM on August 2, 2016 [41 favorites]

There is no mechanism the RNC could use to replace Trump. The supposedly powerful people in the supposedly powerful political machine wanted nothing to with Trump, yet they couldn't stop him. They can't stop him now, either. They get to watch this maniac drool and chew all over their party until it's mangled and there's nothing they can do to stop it.

They could do a Hollywood-style reboot and just take the parts of the Republican canon that are most profitable with them and form a new party... but that would be a lot of paperwork.
posted by XMLicious at 6:20 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

So "they" have begun to harass Mr. Khan.

Slamming his website, calling his work number. Worse to come no doubt.
posted by Yowser at 6:22 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

> If Trump drops out of the race I will actually dance. I have never actually dance before, but I absolutely will if this happens.

I don't know how old you are or what kind of music you like, but you can head over to this post and pick something and dance your ass off. Make a regular habit of it!
posted by rtha at 6:23 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

I don't want Trump to drop out. I want him to lose the election by 12 points.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 6:24 PM on August 2, 2016 [37 favorites]

Who's 'they'?

Can't Ivanka come up with some plan through which Trump could withdraw while retaining his "dignity"? Like "You all don't deserve me, and I'm a RICH ZILLIONAIRE so I don't need this! I'm going to go enjoy life in my gold encrusted palace and you guys can starve, see if I care! I was just trying to help!"
posted by sallybrown at 6:25 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Why 12?
posted by mochapickle at 6:26 PM on August 2, 2016

McCain Statement, paraphrased: "What Trump said was awful. I hope Trump says nicer things. Vote Trump."
posted by Cookiebastard at 6:26 PM on August 2, 2016 [23 favorites]

12 is the magic number in my head that I've come up with which is the most upper bound range of what is possible in this election.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 6:28 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

*illionaire.
posted by box at 6:29 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Has anyone linked this tweet about Manafort and Trump staff?

This one is even... I don't want to say better because nothing about any of this is not terrible but...

Ali Vitali ‏@alivitali 18m18 minutes ago Daytona Beach Shores, FL
A Trump campaign source, in reax to this, tells me "it's all true" and "way worse than people realize."

Considering everyone already realizes his campaign is apocalyptically awful, I'm not sure how much worse "way worse" could possibly be.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:31 PM on August 2, 2016 [10 favorites]

Uh... aren't seniors like the largest voting block in US elections? Is it a good idea to be throwing their reps (AARP) out?

Well, the AARP is allied with ALEC (previously), who are allied with the Kochs, so maybe Trump is pissed off at them for that connection.

But, applying Trump's Razor, it's more likely that he was just being petty and the consequences of alienating the AARP never even occurred to him.
posted by homunculus at 6:32 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

"They" is Breitbart and friends.
posted by Yowser at 6:33 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Trump? Lose by 12 points? Don't you know the folks at Free Republic are sure that election night will end early as New Jersey and New York go for Trump? And at that point, come on, California is in the bag...
posted by argybarg at 6:34 PM on August 2, 2016

Gary Johnson and the Libertarian Party are a valuable pressure release valve for Republicans to disavow Trump. In fact, upthread I predicted there would ultimately be "slate cards" with Johnson on top and R's the rest of the way down. Still, it's too soon to wish Trump away. With three months to go, the Republican Organization could unite behind a 'reasonable' candidate who could actually beat Hillary Clinton. And very few of us want that.

12 points? There have been far bigger landslides than that. It'll take 17½ percent to make the top ten, 23 percent to make the top five. A 24 point win would be bigger than Nixon's victory over McGovern... (of course, the n The Trumpster Fire would accuse Hillary and Friends of 'Worse than Watergate'). But a record high landslide (with strong coattails turning over the Senate and half-turning the House) would be a sign that racism and misogyny are for losers, and America NEEDS to turn that corner.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:34 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

Being on staff for the Trump campaign is probably like re-enacting that one scene from Downfall, over and over and over.
posted by wabbittwax at 6:34 PM on August 2, 2016 [32 favorites]

I'm not sure how much worse "way worse" could possibly be.

Drugs
Financial malfeasance
Medical reports saying yes, Trump is psychologically disturbed
Abuse of family members (probably physical, as Trump's campaign people likely couldn't recognize any other kind)
posted by scaryblackdeath at 6:35 PM on August 2, 2016 [10 favorites]

I'll take drugs for $100, Alex.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:36 PM on August 2, 2016 [10 favorites]

Everyone go google Kelli Ward. She's McCain's primary challenger and she's batshit fucking legit crazypants. McCain can't rock the boat until the primary is over at the end of the month. The third spoiler candidate has already pulled out putting more pressure on him.

McCain may be a spineless power monger but at least the son of a bitch is actually sane.
posted by Talez at 6:37 PM on August 2, 2016 [12 favorites]

12 is (my just made up) upper bound number because a) we are way more polarized and partisan than in the past and b) the democrats are running the second most disliked candidate in the last 50 years.

I wish it weren't the case but it is. 15-20 points isn't happening this year, unless a 3rd party spoiler takes a HUGE chunk away from Trump.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 6:39 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

If you wanna campaign
You wanna shift the blame
Cocaine
posted by wabbittwax at 6:39 PM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

Not supporting a race-baiting fascist should be more important to him than hanging onto his seat for another term.
posted by EarBucket at 6:39 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

The Gawker commentariate just reminded me...

How delightful soused is John Boehner at all times these days? Talk about dodging a bullet. That is luck far better than that asshole deserves.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:40 PM on August 2, 2016 [18 favorites]

Not supporting a race-baiting fascist should be more important to him than hanging onto his seat for another term.

Either way, it's his problem, why should we be making excuses for him?
posted by Artw at 6:41 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

The "way worse" remark probably refers to the description of the staff's morale as suicidal. I've seen business situations during failures where you kind of cycle all the way around from despondency and sadness thru to anger and revenge seeking. We've seen a lot of leaks throughout the whole campaign but if they're beyond despondency and into "just collecting a paycheck" we can probably expect that to increase even more. I don't even know what to expect at this point, really, but things seem to be crazier with every revelation so I am sure it'll be interesting.
posted by feloniousmonk at 6:41 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Considering everyone already realizes his campaign is apocalyptically awful, I'm not sure how much worse "way worse" could possibly be.

I firmly believe that so far, we have gotten the "Mr. Nice Guy" Donald Trump. That we've seen the polished-for-TV version, the meet-old-ladies-at-church version, not the version who screams threats and profanity at contractor foremen who're trying to meet deadlines with half a budget and cheap supplies.

Over the next couple of weeks (or hell, days, depending on how this plays out), I expect Trump to either:
* Assault a reporter in public
* Assault a heckler in public
* Spew vile racism that makes it apparent that he did think "rapists and criminals" was polite speech
* Tell a woman to sit on his face, or make a similar gross sexual request
* Tell safety officers - cops or fire marshals - to get the fuck out of his way and let him do his thing
* Publicly announce that he's putting a hit on someone

... or more than one of those.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 6:42 PM on August 2, 2016 [15 favorites]

Here's hoping it ruins their lives.
posted by Artw at 6:42 PM on August 2, 2016

Of course it's "way worse." Have any of you ever worked for a malignant narcissist? It is literally a living hell.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 6:42 PM on August 2, 2016 [32 favorites]

It's not hanging onto his seat. It's keeping a certifiably insane right wing conspiracy nut job down in the primary. If she wins she has a lock on a senate seat. A fucking senate seat for someone who takes chemtrails and moon law seriously.
posted by Talez at 6:42 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

It's Arizona, they're going to elect the lunatic anyway.
posted by Artw at 6:44 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Not supporting a race-baiting fascist should be more important to him than hanging onto his seat for another term.

If only because his very daughter is brown.
posted by tivalasvegas at 6:44 PM on August 2, 2016

> I'll take drugs for $100, Alex.

Shit, I'll take drugs for free! Or $20, SAIT!
posted by rtha at 6:44 PM on August 2, 2016 [14 favorites]

If you're a campaign staffer working for Trump under those conditions, how long until you decide "Screw this, I'm out of here"? What happens when a big chunk of his staff takes a hike? Who's going to be willing to sign on to the sinking ship to replace them?
posted by EarBucket at 6:45 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Wow, tough audience. McCain just said that Trump doesn't deserve the nomination and that he's going to Hell. Is there anything else he could do to redeem himself?

No, he didn't. Here is what McCain said: "In the end, I am morally bound to speak only to the things that command my allegiance, and to which I have dedicated my life’s work: the Republican Party, and more importantly, the United States of America. I will not refrain from doing my utmost by those lights simply because it may benefit others with whom I disagree."

He is saying that he will not revoke his absolute loyalty to the Republican Party even if that blind loyalty results in helping Trump get elected. In other words Party is more important than principle.

McCain is despicable. He is being challenged in a primary from the right by a Tea Party Trumpist candidate. He is terrified of saying anything that will offend the Trumpists, the weaselly coward. McCain has no guiding principle other than what is best for John McCain.
posted by JackFlash at 6:48 PM on August 2, 2016 [9 favorites]

If you're a campaign staffer working for Trump under those conditions, how long until you decide "Screw this, I'm out of here"?

Well, signing up in the first place is sort of an indicator that maybe coming to your senses might take longer than you think.
posted by Mooski at 6:48 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yeah, I alllllmost feel sorry for those poor bastards. Well, not Manafort, he can get bent. But the lower level ghouls. They probably just thought they were going to get something for their resume, and now look.

Seriously guys, just quit. It's okay. Take a spa week and go visit your parents in Parsippany for a couple months. Your dad could really use some help with the lawn. Your mom misses you so much. Go ahead. Book your rental car now. I'll wait.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:50 PM on August 2, 2016 [17 favorites]

Trump is laying the groundwork for violence should he lose.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:52 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Well, he did also say, "I have a long and well-known public and private record for which I will have to answer at the Final Judgment, and I repose my hope in the promise of mercy and the moderation of age." Which, damn, is giving me Hamilton flashbacks.
posted by corb at 6:52 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Haha, ErisLordFreedom, just one day ago I got accused of writing fan fiction for saying something similar, and even I kind of agreed. Amazing how much one day of Donald Unhinged changes things, eh?
posted by argybarg at 6:52 PM on August 2, 2016

McCain is despicable. He is being challenged in a primary from the right by a Tea Party Trumpist candidate. He is terrified of saying anything that will offend the Trumpists, the weaselly coward. McCain has no guiding principle other than what is best for John McCain.

Letting Ward into the senate gives sovcits an ally with a hell of a lot of power. God forbid she gets any semblance of a security clearance and access to how sausage is made in the federal government.
posted by Talez at 6:53 PM on August 2, 2016

If you're a campaign staffer working for Trump under those conditions, how long until you decide "Screw this, I'm out of here"?

I'm not sure that having the Trump campaign on your resume is going to be conducive to ever getting a job as a campaign staffer for anyone else, or for that matter getting a job working for anyone but Donald Trump, so you might worry about your career prospects if you jump ship.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 6:53 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Well, signing up in the first place is sort of an indicator that maybe coming to your senses might take longer than you think.

Possibly. There are plenty of Republicans who "do campaigns" for a living -- well, call it seasonal work -- and I'm sure that some of them signed up assuming that beneath the circus there was an actual campaign that resembled all the campaigns they've worked on before, not a cross between the Borgias and the Bluths.
posted by holgate at 6:53 PM on August 2, 2016 [12 favorites]

See, I don't think Trump woud ever actually get physical with someone himself. He'd muss his manicure and also germophobe.
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:55 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Freedom of the press: Is Trump the next Erdoğan?
posted by homunculus at 6:55 PM on August 2, 2016

If he attacks you GO FOR THE HAIR.
posted by Artw at 6:56 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

Possibly. There are plenty of Republicans who "do campaigns" for a living

No doubt, but I'm guessing the sane ones went with Rubio, Kasich or even Cruz. By the time those guys had dropped out of the race, it had to be clear to anyone with a fifth grade education that Trump was a national nightmare waiting for us to go to sleep.
posted by Mooski at 6:58 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Huh. Lots of people on Twitter report getting robocalls begging for “emergency donations” for Trump’s campaign. Sad!

So, I got one of these calls this morning (on the brand new landline we had installed a week ago to get DSL, which no one knows the number to). Apparently it's 'great news!' That Donald Trump is no longer self funding his campaign, because it means that I have the opportunity to contribute! If I sent $25, I could get a sticker. But if I sent $1000, I would get a 8x10 photo of The Donald himself, with the candidate's signature, suitable for framing!

(Needless to say, I hung up rather than pressing 1 to contribute.)
posted by leahwrenn at 6:59 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

There are plenty of Republicans who "do campaigns" for a living -- well, call it seasonal work -- and I'm sure that some of them signed up assuming that beneath the circus there was an actual campaign that resembled all the campaigns they've worked on before, not a cross between the Borgias and the Bluths.

They knew. I know some folks like this. All but one chose not to get involved with this sack of shit. The one who chose differently...he knew too. He didn't need the money or the connections. He did it on the off chance Trump would win, and then he would be one of the very few who agreed to help, with the power and access that comes with that. He didn't care about the danger Trump posed to our country, about the things Trump said, just about himself. I hope he never works in politics again after this. I hope every time he goes into an interview anywhere there is someone principled enough in that office to insist they turn down the kind of person who would work for Trump.
posted by sallybrown at 7:01 PM on August 2, 2016 [31 favorites]

Regardless of whether McCain is primaried, Ann Kirkpatrick, the democrat that could replace him looks credible (not just a stunt candidate). Maybe a long shot but one never knows!
posted by R343L at 7:03 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Oh, man. These tweets have me hopeful about the next few days.

I'm not even gonna feel bad about how much I'm enjoying the popcorn. Fuck it – if ever there's a time when it's okay to laugh at another person's misfortune, it's when that person is a fascist blowhard goon who has massively fucked up your democracy.

There's a real poetic justice in the fact that Trump's current predicament is entirely self-inflicted. Self-implosion is the best ending for this thing. Let Trump ruin the Trump campaign. Let him do it publicly and spectacularly. Let his staff flee the sinking ship, and leave him standing there abandoned and terrified and enraged and bewildered and helpless, with all the world staring astonished at the screaming man with the tiny hands.

As for what comes after...well, we'll worry about that when the celebratory hangovers wear off. It might be a couple of days.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:08 PM on August 2, 2016 [11 favorites]

Regardless of whether McCain is primaried, Ann Kirkpatrick, the democrat that could replace him looks credible (not just a stunt candidate). Maybe a long shot but one never knows!

Two of the last three polls in the state gave John McCain only a 2% lead over Ann Kirkpatrick and they were both taken before the DNC. (The third had a strong margin for McCain but about 29% undecided). I'd call that a target rather than a long shot.
posted by Francis at 7:12 PM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

OnceUponATime: "I keep making arguments about policy, and he keeps coming back with arguments about character/personality.
...
But I guess a lot of people judge on intentions and not ideas. Maybe it takes too much energy to try to judge what's a good or a bad idea? Maybe people feel more confident of their ability to judge intentions than ideas? "

People judge based on their own emotions/how they feel about the candidates, and it's really really hard to logic someone out of their emotions. Like, assume for a minute that I think there's actual (solid, rational conservative) policy hidden under all Trump's bluster and shouting. I don't care, and I don't think I'd listen to anyone trying to tell me his policies would make him a good choice. He scares me, he infuriates me, he disgusts me, he horrifies me. My reaction to him is entirely emotional, and at this point, no one is going to be able to convince me he's a good guy and worthy of my trust or vote.

That's where your cousin is, but in reverse. I think the only way to have these conversations is to stick to the emotional, but with I statements. "When I listen to Trump speak, I feel [angry/scared]. I can see how some people feel powerful from his words, but I really don't. It leaves me [anxious/nervous/twitchy], because it seems like the only constants in his speeches are negatives. I don't actually think America is awful - I think some awful things happen, just like anywhere, but people are pretty decent overall. Someone at the store yesterday let me go ahead of them because I only had three things - I mean, that sounds tiny, right? But it made my whole day, because I was exhausted and cranky and here was this Hispanic lady making my life easier just because. That's what I see when I watch Hillary -- someone who makes a point of making people feel welcome and tries to make their lives easier, no matter who they are. You get the feeling there's always room at her table - she'll put out the extra leaves to make it bigger, and scrounge up some chairs, and make sure no one goes home hungry. I feel like Trump wants the biggest table he can find all to himself, with people like me sitting at the rickety card table in the next room if we're lucky, or kicked out hungry to the street if we're not."

Basically, all the way through these last couple threads, people have been talking about how much better they feel after the DNC, how much more happy and hopeful and optimistic and determined, how all the energy and excitement lifted them up, how all the personal stories about Hillary made them realize that they don't just agree with her policy, they like and trust her as a person. Also how they feel about Trump and his... everything. The emotional impact of everything has been much more important than dissecting individual policies, and people here are bonding over the feelings Hillary and her campaign are engendering.

Your cousin (and everyone who thinks/feels the way he does) may not be persuaded, but maybe hearing that Hillary is actually triggering a positive emotional response in people outside of policy wonkery, and how and why she's doing that, will give him/them a moment's pause.
posted by current resident at 7:12 PM on August 2, 2016 [42 favorites]

Can you imagine if the republican party actually kicked Trump to the curb? He'd go ballistic. Man I'd have to take a week off just to revel in the glory that would be Trump attempting... whatever it is that Trump does.
posted by aspo at 7:20 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

I keep making arguments about policy, and he keeps coming back with arguments about character/personality.

Speaking as a policy wonk ... your friend is right here. 75% or more of the things the President needs to do will not be covered by their platforms, and most of what the platform does is give you an indicator of their priorities and how they will handle things. Their personality matters. A lot, and more than the policy actually does.

But seriously? An argument about personality involving Donald Trump? He is what he does. Someone who sends businesses bankrupt, lies regularly, attacks fire marshals in public, has been married three times, and considers it acceptable to pick a fight with a gold star parent and talk about rounding people up and banning them from America because of their religion.

It's not about intentions and not about ideas. It's about what they will do when the chips are down.
posted by Francis at 7:21 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

I want Trump to be the nominee. I want Clinton to crush him and I want him to bring down Republican control of the House and Senate with him.
posted by kirkaracha at 7:22 PM on August 2, 2016 [20 favorites]

Meg Whitman endorses Clinton, says she will raise money for her, and calls Trump a "demagogue."

ha ah ahaha
posted by sallybrown at 7:22 PM on August 2, 2016 [40 favorites]

The fundraising thing is really interesting with Whitman. Not too long ago, she was supporting Christie.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 7:23 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

That read to me like a "Jefferson has principles, Burr has none." endorsement.
posted by Francis at 7:24 PM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

I mean, really. Is it possible that Clinton gets 65% of the female vote?
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 7:25 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

McCain is saying that he will not revoke his absolute loyalty to the Republican Party even if that blind loyalty results in helping Trump get elected.

Uh, no, quite the opposite: he follows that by saying "While our Party has bestowed upon [Trump] the nomination, it is not accompanied by unfettered license to defame those who are the best among us." When McCain says that he's going to do his best by the Republican Party and the USA even though "it may benefit others with whom I disagree", he means that he's going to call Trump out even though it will help the Democrats. Look at the start of his statement:

“The Republican Party I know and love is the party of Abraham Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt, Dwight D. Eisenhower, and Ronald Reagan.

ALL PRESIDENTS WHO SUPPORTED THE TROOPS AND ALL NOT TRUMP

“I wear a bracelet bearing the name of a fallen hero, Matthew Stanley, which his mother, Lynn, gave me in 2007, at a town hall meeting in Wolfeboro, New Hampshire. His memory and the memory of our great leaders deserve better from me.

I SHOULDN'T HAVE ENDORSED HIM

“In recent days, Donald Trump disparaged a fallen soldier’s parents. He has suggested that the likes of their son should not be allowed in the United States — to say nothing of entering its service. I cannot emphasize enough how deeply I disagree with Mr. Trump’s statement. I hope Americans understand that the remarks do not represent the views of our Republican Party, its officers, or candidates.

MORALLY SPEAKING, TRUMP IS NOT ACTUALLY A REPUBLICAN

[lengthy section praising Captain Khan omitted]
“In the end, I am morally bound to speak only to the things that command my allegiance, and to which I have dedicated my life’s work: the Republican Party, and more importantly, the United States of America. I will not refrain from doing my utmost by those lights simply because it may benefit others with whom I disagree.

BY OPPOSING THE REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE I AM ACTUALLY BEING A BETTER REPUBLICAN EVEN IF IT HELPS THE DEMOCRATS

That's the way I read it; I don't see how it can be taken any other way. How can calling Trump out possibly be understood as something that will benefit Trump's campaign?
posted by Joe in Australia at 7:25 PM on August 2, 2016 [9 favorites]

It might be ugly, but it can't be any uglier than Trump winning.
posted by diogenes

It can always get worse. I'd have thought a stoic would know that.
posted by 3urypteris at 7:26 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

Well, it would help if McCain actually said something straightforward, rather than obliquely.
posted by yesster at 7:27 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

I mean, really. Is it possible that Clinton gets 65% of the female vote?

I'm going to say more. Right now Trump is polling fourth out of non-white voters. Half of those are women. Out of white voters, he's only leading among those without a college degree (maybe even just male white voters without a college degree?).
posted by sallybrown at 7:28 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

How can calling Trump out possibly be understood as something that will benefit Trump's campaign?

Because he has still refused to explicitly withdraw his endorsement, despite calls from all corners for him to do so.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:28 PM on August 2, 2016 [12 favorites]

In other words, you're hearing things that McCain is not (yet) actually saying.
posted by yesster at 7:28 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yup. That's a coded "I'm unhappy but not ready to break ranks yet even by speaking plainly." The question is what he'll do once his primary is over.
posted by Francis at 7:29 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Well, it would help if McCain actually said something straightforward, rather than obliquely.

But then Trump supporters would know what he was saying
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 7:29 PM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

Meg Whitman endorses Clinton ...

Remember when everyone excoriated Clinton for reaching out to Republicans? Whitman is one of those who she talked to. And it looks like Whitman is pledging to bring a lot of more high-powered Republicans with her.
posted by JackFlash at 7:29 PM on August 2, 2016 [36 favorites]

That read to me like a "Jefferson has principles, Burr has none." endorsement.

It is. Which is fine. I don't want R's to be all, "Come to Hillary's side, her policies are just like ours!" No, they are not, and they shouldn't be. But, she's not a threat to the very existence of our Republic, so.

This is paving the way for a lot of fiscal conservatives to be okay with just sucking it up for 4 years and voting D just to keep the maniac out. Social conservatives are a harder sell because a lot of the most compelling Supreme Court decisions that could go tits up with a conservative court are social conservative red meat. But people like my parents who could give a fuck about abortion but who give many, many fucks about the Constitution? Pssst... vote Democrat just this once. It's okay. Everyone is doing it. We won't tell your parents.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:30 PM on August 2, 2016 [21 favorites]

That's the way I read it; I don't see how it can be taken any other way. How can calling Trump out possibly be understood as something that will benefit Trump's campaign?

It's definitely not benefitting Trump's campaign, and I agree that he is calling Trump out. What he is not doing is withdrawing his endorsement of Trump. He is not saying - don't vote for Trump, vote for Hillary Clinton. He is trying to have it both ways - distancing himself from Trump, but not outright unendorsing him to allow him to fight in his primary. He may unendorse after the primary is over.
posted by peacheater at 7:30 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

Many of the Republicans who have expressed support for Clinton in the past few days have been women.

I'm just waiting for the inevitable Ivanka endorsement. :)
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 7:31 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

DAMMIT I MEANT CYNIC.
posted by 3urypteris at 7:32 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

how will metafilter survive 97 more days like this
maybe we need trump.metafilter.com. we can delete the whole thing on Nov 9.
(or use it to organize the insurgency, god forbid)
posted by murphy slaw at 7:33 PM on August 2, 2016 [32 favorites]

Ivanka knows what side her bread is buttered on; I'd be gobsmacked if she did anything so overt.
posted by winna at 7:33 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Just donated to Ann Kirkpatrick.
posted by bongo_x at 7:34 PM on August 2, 2016 [9 favorites]

Laura Bush tomorrow?
posted by sallybrown at 7:34 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Is that the same Meg Whitman who is still trying to repair all the damage done to HP by Carly Fiorina? Great!
posted by yesster at 7:34 PM on August 2, 2016

"His comments were offensive, his conduct is not acceptable, and I withdraw my endorsement."

See? Like that. Nice try though. I liked the honor-y part.
posted by petebest at 7:35 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

how will metafilter survive 97 more days like this
maybe we need trump.metafilter.com. we can delete the whole thing on Nov 9.
(or use it to organize the insurgency, god forbid)

These threads will be amazing to read in a couple decades for all sorts of cultural studies students...I hope they are still around. I kind of wish we could make them into a book.
posted by sallybrown at 7:35 PM on August 2, 2016 [11 favorites]

If trump loses I hope he picks a fight with Putin for failing him and gets his financial records dragged across the front pages.

Even if he doesn't pick that fight he should probably avoid sushi and umbrellas for a bit.
posted by Artw at 7:36 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Hey, you guys? We really need to show some appreciation to the mods. What are some good peddlers of snack baskets, etc. that offer gift codes?
posted by escape from the potato planet at 7:36 PM on August 2, 2016 [24 favorites]

Trump is a train wreck that I am morbidly drawn to watch.
posted by maurreen at 7:37 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh god not that make mefi into a book stuff again.

If anyone gets that bright idea please note that all comments are copyright the authors and ask before you take.
posted by winna at 7:37 PM on August 2, 2016 [12 favorites]

Just donated to Ann Kirkpatrick.
posted by bongo_x

And THAT'S how we help deliver a landslide for Hillary.
posted by yesster at 7:37 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

What are some good peddlers of snack baskets, etc. that offer gift codes?

Trump Steaks all around!
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:38 PM on August 2, 2016 [9 favorites]

Also don't post doxxing sites even if you're complaining about them. Jesus, people.
posted by winna at 7:39 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

These threads will be amazing to read in a couple decades for all sorts of cultural studies students...I hope they are still around. I kind of wish we could make them into a book.

Just what I need to look back on in 30 years when I'm a grumpy old coot. A time when I had convictions and a loving wife.
posted by Talez at 7:40 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

I was thinking today that this is how I know that Trump doesn't have anything like the money he says he does. Have you ever seen Gates, Buffet, or Bloomberg ties, steaks, etc? I bet that he only makes a few million and it's all hocking crap.
posted by bongo_x at 7:41 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

Another Trump staff-related tweet:
A source tells @DanaBashCNN that some Trump campaign staff are frustrated w/ candidate lately, "feel like they are wasting their time"
posted by peacheater at 7:41 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

Oh it's definitely all hocking crap. A lot of the buildings with his name on them he doesn't even own. He just sells the rights to use his name, that's where he makes most of his money. I mean, nice work if you can get it, but he's not a billionaire.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:43 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Escape from a potato salad is corrupt, tries to buy out mods.Sad!
posted by Yowser at 7:44 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Shocked! Shocked I am to find this campaign has no policy ideas, no competent practical management, and is a bigoted turd circus of hate! Good day to you.

I SAID GOOD DAY
posted by petebest at 7:45 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Ripping off his own campaign is probably the closest he's gotten to honestly making money in ages.
posted by Artw at 7:45 PM on August 2, 2016 [11 favorites]

Another Trump staff-related tweet:
A source tells @DanaBashCNN that some Trump campaign staff are frustrated w/ candidate lately, "feel like they are wasting their time"

From another forum, someone posted that they (out of curiosity) tried to volunteer in PA, NC, and FLA. They got dead lines for each phone number, and the only thing they've gotten through email are solicitations for donations. That strongly implies 0 ground game.
posted by codacorolla at 7:46 PM on August 2, 2016 [11 favorites]

Lawrence O'Donnell is just hitting Trump on everything tonight -Khans, What Obama Said, mental health, Whitman, Ryan/McCain, and after this commercial break, the Trump kids.
posted by zutalors! at 7:46 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Clinton and Trump are tied in Georgia.

I keep being rewarded by the Trump Fairy for not going to bed.
posted by sallybrown at 7:47 PM on August 2, 2016 [33 favorites]

Joe in Australia: That's the way I read it; I don't see how it can be taken any other way. How can calling Trump out possibly be understood as something that will benefit Trump's campaign?

You are being obtuse in your reading. Here is McCain yesterday in a press conference replying to the direct question "Do you endorse Trump?"

McCain says "I support the nominee of the party and — I’ll tell you what when — any time from now on, when that question is asked, if I changed my mind, I’ll let you know."

It could not be any clearer. He is still endorsing Trump.
posted by JackFlash at 7:50 PM on August 2, 2016 [17 favorites]

Can't tell if this transcript of today's WaPo interview (in which he declined to endorse Ryan etc) has been posted yet. Amazing evidence of his short attention span-- he's constantly losing track of the conversation to watch himself on TV.
posted by acidic at 7:53 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Cory Lewondoski is now on CNN asking why Obama never released his Harvard transcripts (because it might show that he was not an American citizen!!!!!) in response to someone asking why Trump hasn't released his tax records.

This is just truly bizarre.
posted by modernnomad at 7:54 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

If CNN is paying Lewandowski for his time on air, shame on them.
posted by yesster at 7:55 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

Give it up Cory, he's never going to ask you to prom.
posted by soren_lorensen at 7:56 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

If not, still shame.
posted by snofoam at 7:57 PM on August 2, 2016

He might. I can see Lewandowski triumphantly returning to the fold after everyone else abandons Trump.
posted by sporkwort at 7:58 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Considering that CNN is Lewandowski's employer...
posted by Yowser at 7:59 PM on August 2, 2016

Do we know what Lewandowski really did to get the bum's rush? It certainly wasn't for being a toxic asshole because being a toxic asshole is a requirement of the campaign.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:00 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

you know, despite all of the good news today, one thing sticks with me

there are people in america who need convincing that donald fucking trump is a terrible person
posted by murphy slaw at 8:01 PM on August 2, 2016 [46 favorites]

Hey guys, GUYS...listen up. I'm beginning to feel sorry for Trump (a little) . Maybe it's the mom in me but i just cant bear to see anyone be humiliated, no matter how bad they may appear to be.

WAIT....what did i just say? OH GOD I JUST LOST MY FREAKING MIND.

Man, this shit is complicated! On one hand i'm like SCREW YOU, YOU ORANGE TURD...but then my inner angel pokes me in the eye and says "ya know, in another universe, you coulda been Ivanka Trump, so show some compassion for someone's dad...." and then i'm like DIE YOU INNER ANGEL!!

In conclusion, this shitstorm is making me lose my damn mind!

Er...HALP?
posted by ramix at 8:03 PM on August 2, 2016 [12 favorites]

And many who still aren't convinced, some of which will never be convinced. He's their guy.
posted by defenestration at 8:04 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Do we know what Lewandowski really did to get the bum's rush? It certainly wasn't for being a toxic asshole because being a toxic asshole is a requirement of the campaign.

Speculation at the time was that it was a powerplay by Manafort . But I haven't read anything about it since it happened.
posted by sporkwort at 8:04 PM on August 2, 2016

there are people in america who need convincing that donald fucking trump is a terrible person

Worse than that to my mind is that there are left-wing people who think voting for Trump and voting for Clinton are equally bad and don't care that not voting for Clinton is increasing the chance that Trump will become President.
posted by peacheater at 8:05 PM on August 2, 2016 [31 favorites]

It's funny. A good number of politicians go into it for reasons of at least some degree of high-minded civic duty and then resent the fact they have to spend their days fundraising, glad handing, shoveling pork around, etc... They bemoan the fact that it's only once every few years that they maybe get to do something that makes a difference.

Meanwhile, here we have Trump, who did claim that he got into the race because he looked at how the country was going and felt compelled to serve. He's got a massive national media platform, all these people hanging on his every word, and he could use it for anything he possibly wants, and what does he do? Attacks a gold star family, accuses two different fire marshals, rants about how the election will be rigged, gets into a fight with his own party's leadership, says his daughter would just quit her job if sexually harassed at work, says he's always wanted a purple heart, and insulted a mother with a baby, and that's just in the last day or so. Imagine what good, even his own version of good that most of us would reject, he could do with this platform he's squandering.

Even Romney, who I certainly disagreed with on policy, at least appeared to be running, yes, for power and title, but also out of some kind of desire to advance his particular set of policies and values among the people. Trump, to the extent he ever cared, seems increasingly disinterested from talking about policy at all now and is content to launch himself from one random topic to another as long as it keeps him on CNN.

But really, imagine if we gave this kind of platform and attention to basically anybody else and they could use it to advocate for basically anything of substance at all.
posted by zachlipton at 8:05 PM on August 2, 2016 [16 favorites]

Do we know what Lewandowski really did to get the bum's rush?

I don't think he got the bum's rush. Trump needed a guy working for the networks so Lewandowski got "fired" and is now filling his new role in Trump's campaign. He's still working for him. Even if he's temporarily not receiving a paycheck.
posted by downtohisturtles at 8:06 PM on August 2, 2016 [13 favorites]

Er...HALP?

Just think about all the people whose lives Presidente Trump would utterly destroy. That empathy'll melt away like butter in the sun.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:06 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

Oh god yes. And the fucking south parkian false equivalencies.
posted by defenestration at 8:07 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Attacks a gold star family, accuses two different fire marshals, rants about how the election will be rigged, gets into a fight with his own party's leadership, says his daughter would just quit her job if sexually harassed at work, says he's always wanted a purple heart, and insulted a mother with a baby, and that's just in the last day or so.

I just want to highlight this quote for posterity because I literally cannot even believe that any of this is HAPPENING RIGHT NOW
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:07 PM on August 2, 2016 [40 favorites]

Rep Blake Farenthold on All In. Every time I see him I wonder what the hell happened to Tweedledee.
posted by wallabear at 8:09 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Do we know what Lewandowski really did to get the bum's rush?

I think it was just an internal power struggle with Manafort which Manafort won since he actually did have some campaign-related experience (albeit very out of date in the American context).

Cory, I'm sure, was quite happy to take CNN's filthy lucre in order to continue to represent his former boss...
posted by modernnomad at 8:09 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Do we know what Lewandowski really did to get the bum's rush?

It was right after some incident that made the campaign look amauterish, ManfoortThing was brought on to allegedly right the ship.
posted by vrakatar at 8:10 PM on August 2, 2016

Okay, whoever had money on 'Drumpf comes out against babies, Apple pie' as the next, literally unbelievable, gaffe is so close to winning big.

This was me, and I thought it would take him all week to start messing with babies. I was joking and it turns out I gave him too much credit by six entire days. Jesus, this guy.

Okay, new by-Friday prediction: He'll tell some reporter that the day Khizer Khan "viciously attacked" him is "a day that will live in infamy" and it will take him all day to grasp why that's a problem. When does issue a statement, he calls Pearl Harbor a "minor attack, terrible" and that he likes the sailors "who didn't get caught on a boat that was gonna sink, but that's just me." Paul Ryan will say he "disagrees strongly," but doesn't withdraw his endorsement.
posted by EatTheWeek at 8:10 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

Sean Hannity: Question of the Day: In light of @realDonaldTrump's comments, do you think the general election could be rigged? Weigh in using #Hannity.

Josh Charles: How about hashtag #dickface instead?
posted by sallybrown at 8:10 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

Texas Republicans on MSNBC right now, doubling down on Trump.

I hope we have this shit recorded, to play back in their faces.
posted by yesster at 8:10 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Watching Chris Hayes earlier today, he added something new to the #1 slot in the Trump Top 10. Apparently he said at a rally today that he hopes the economy tanks soon so that he doesn't get blamed for it when he takes office. HOW does a candidate say something like that and it's the least newsworthy thing he's done all day???
posted by acidic at 8:11 PM on August 2, 2016 [31 favorites]

You guys I don't know if I can spend the next 3 months screaming into the existential void but also I am literally unable to stop reading about the election
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:11 PM on August 2, 2016 [65 favorites]

I'm watching O'Reilly's interview of Trump from earlier today, and O'Reilly is basically spoon feeding him answers to softball questions, and Trump is STILL repeating over and over and over that he has been "viciously attacked" and shooting himself in the foot. It is utterly ridiculous.
posted by gatorae at 8:12 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

I just want to highlight this quote for posterity because I literally cannot even believe that any of this is HAPPENING RIGHT NOW

Jezabel has an even longer list, and it seems I forgot at least some of the crazy. He also called Hillary Clinton the devil, wigged out at the President, and signed an anti-porn pledge (which, I suppose, is at least remotely related to policy). Oh, and one of his advisors suggested Khizr Khan is an agent of the Muslim Brotherhood.
posted by zachlipton at 8:12 PM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

I just want to highlight this quote for posterity because I literally cannot even believe that any of this is HAPPENING RIGHT NOW

I want to leave a bunch of time capsules and engraved stones lying around saying "YES, ALL OF IT REALLY HAPPENED. NO, IT DIDN'T MAKE ANY SENSE TO US EITHER"
posted by theodolite at 8:12 PM on August 2, 2016 [25 favorites]

i wonder if trump's reaction to the obama press conference statements will be to go full-blown birther again?

nailed it.
posted by murphy slaw at 8:15 PM on August 2, 2016 [10 favorites]

WaPo interview transcript is great. They talk about Ryan, go onto another topic and then:

TRUMP: You want me to give you an exact quote on the Paul Ryan? You were asking.

Like, "hold up a sec, I almost forgot to deliver my sick burn."
posted by snofoam at 8:17 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Working for Rob Ford didn't do anybody's career any favours, either.
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:17 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Trump is coming to my area in a few days. It may well be the worst idea ever, but I kinda want to attend... wHile wearing a burqa (I'm not Muslim). In addition to its its emotional freight with that crowd, the burqa would help me keep my facial expressions in check. I do not expect to be allowed inside, but waiting silently in line would be enough (remember the woman wearing a hijab who got ejected?) I'm more concerned about cultural appropriation and misrepresentation (plus, you know, making things worse for actual Muslim women) than I am about enduring catcalls or worse. I would remain silent and refuse media interviews. If I could sneak the burqa inside, much better. Sure, I want the stunt to provoke, but usefully. I don't want my image or silence to be construed as "evidence" that Muslims support Trump. Probably won't do it, but I'm still tempted.
posted by carmicha at 8:19 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

In non-Trump news, the first ballot drop in Washington's primary has occurred and to prove there really is a crazy factor, 990 people so far have voted for goodspaceguy.
posted by R343L at 8:19 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

Jezabel has an even longer list, and it seems I forgot at least some of the crazy. He also called Hillary Clinton the devil, wigged out at the President, and signed an anti-porn pledge (which, I suppose, is at least remotely related to policy). Oh, and one of his advisors suggested Khizr Khan is an agent of the Muslim Brotherhood.

I was wondering if you could define elections by events. Like Jeremiah Wright is an event, and then maybe sub-events are like McCain bringing that to light, and then Obama's race speech in response. I was wondering, if you coded several elections like that, what this election would look like. At less than a week in.
posted by codacorolla at 8:19 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

MADHOUSE ITS A MADHOUSE
posted by vrakatar at 8:20 PM on August 2, 2016

I just want to highlight this quote for posterity because I literally cannot even believe that any of this is HAPPENING RIGHT NOW

Rey: The Donald was real?
Han Solo: I used to wonder about that myself. Thought it was a bunch of Onion articles. An orange megalomaniac insulting the fire marshals and the troops, the babies and the NAACP. Crazy thing is... it's true. The Donald. Chris Christie... All of it... It's all true.
posted by PlusDistance at 8:20 PM on August 2, 2016 [36 favorites]

From Katy Tur:

Top republican: @Reince is 'apoplectic' over Trump's refusal to back Ryan. He called several Trump staffers to express his displeasure.

More from same source: The next 24 to 72 hours are crucial. There is serious talk about key Republicans coming out hard against Trump.
posted by sallybrown at 8:20 PM on August 2, 2016 [28 favorites]

nailed it.

Don Lemon. For when Wolf Blitzer is too hard hitting. Did he at least follow that up?
posted by Artw at 8:20 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

He called several Trump staffers to express his displeasure.

I hope it was a sternly worded lecture.
posted by PlusDistance at 8:22 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Probably won't do it, but I'm still tempted.

Yeah, don't do that.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 8:22 PM on August 2, 2016 [34 favorites]

These threads are too long, Am I right? Terrible. I read twenty thousand comments and had to scroll for days! When I'm moderator, we're going to fix all that. It won't be twenty thousand, believe me. We're gonna create the biggest threads, the best. Ten, twenty thousand comments only the good comments. No sockpuppets, no losers, no babies. And it's going to be fantastic. True story.

QUIDNUNC/WORDPERFECT 2016
posted by petebest at 8:22 PM on August 2, 2016 [12 favorites]

I want Trump to be the nominee. I want Clinton to crush him and I want him to bring down Republican control of the House and Senate with him.

I understand what you're saying and the partisan, pugilistic part of me is right with you, but I also know that for our political system to function properly, we need healthy opposition. Which we haven't had for a long, long time -- I believe this is part of what HRC meant when she said that our democratic system is broken. Our democratic system is broken in part because one of our two major political parties has lost interest in governing, preferring only obstruction and promotion of the most regressive rhetoric and policies possible on race, sex, class, and other identity markers.

I would rather see the Republican leadership come to their senses, withdraw their endorsements, and find some sort of technicality to remove Trump as the party's nominee. It would be a tremendous blow to the Republican party, possibly a fatal one, but better that than whatever remains of the principled conservatives who used to be interested in governing and finding compromise solutions to have their legacy and future in public service forever poisoned by their support, no matter how tepid, of Trump. An awful lot of Americans really are conservative in their beliefs and values, and they need to have honest representation in our political system. Their party has been rotting from within for decades thanks to foul legacy of the Southern strategy, but if there is anything left of the Grand Old Party, I hope it can be restored. The American political system is built upon checks and balances, and part of that is the dynamic pull between two parties. Without a strong (but sane) opposition, the Democratic party will very likely soon succumb to the corruption of excess power.

Frankly, at this point, I doubt that the Republicans are really capable of recovering from the rot they've suffered from for decades; Trump is like the bursting of a festering ulcer that reveals the true extent of an infection. Perhaps amputation of the racist, fascist wing of the party will let it survive, but at this point I doubt it. Trump really is the nominee, and he almost certain really will be on the ballot in November, and the Republicans who failed to stop him will have lost any moral claim to principled conservativism.
posted by biogeo at 8:23 PM on August 2, 2016 [32 favorites]

I am sure the Republicans will recover from even this, but I can't imagine how they will recover from this.
posted by Joey Michaels at 8:24 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

I love how Trump keeps saying he was "viciously attacked". Because for anyone with a remotely theological bent in their thinking, that phrase evokes "indulging the vice of carrying out personal attacks", and you know who would be the personification of such a vice...

It's as if he were shouting at someone "Look at that guy's awful hairpiece! Ridiculous! Sad!"
posted by XMLicious at 8:24 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Carmicha: seriously, I think that is a bad idea. Not seriously, i think you should go as a baby.
posted by snofoam at 8:25 PM on August 2, 2016 [12 favorites]

From Katy Tur: The next 24 to 72 hours are crucial. There is serious talk about key Republicans coming out hard against Trump.

Wawa wee-wah. And I have to work 12 hours tomorrow. Damnit!
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 8:27 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's as if he were shouting at someone "Look at that guy's awful hairpiece! Ridiculous! Sad!"

This is what his attacks on Clinton have largely been and I think it's going to get less effective as 2016 DNC Hillary replaces Amorphous Nightmare Hillary in the minds of people who don't pay that much attention
posted by theodolite at 8:28 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

My estimation of Don Lemon just jumped dramatically: "It seemed, at least to most people with a brain..." (when trying to push back on Trump surrogate's talking points on "what to do in case of sexual harassment" thing).
posted by modernnomad at 8:29 PM on August 2, 2016

Trump needed a guy working for the networks so Lewandowski got "fired" and is now filling his new role in Trump's campaign. He's still working for him. Even if he's temporarily not receiving a paycheck.

CNN has disclosed that Lewandowski is still on the Trump payroll. That's integrity in media for you.
posted by JackFlash at 8:30 PM on August 2, 2016 [22 favorites]

Ten, twenty thousand comments only the good comments. No sockpuppets, no losers, no babies. And it's going to be fantastic. True story.

Guys, the moderation queue just got ten feet taller.
posted by puddledork at 8:30 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

CNN has disclosed that Lewandowski is still on the Trump payroll. That's integrity in media for you.

Cite?
posted by escape from the potato planet at 8:32 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Er...HALP?

Just think about all the people whose lives Presidente Trump would utterly destroy. That empathy'll melt away like butter in the sun.

I've had the stray empathetic thought for Trump in recent days, especially in light of the speculation that he might be suffering from some sort of mental condition. That's good, I'm emotionally healthy, I tell myself. But having acknowledged it, I'm saving it for after the election. This isn't a matter of deciding whether or not to hire someone at Best Buy (no offense to Best Buy, their prices are unreasonable but they usually have what I need in a pinch). If he somehow manages to find himself sitting in the catseat, all bets are off, and millions of us would suffer. He's not irredeemable in some cosmic sense, I believe that, whatever that means, but until this election is over he must be opposed with all the strength we can muster, and long after this is all over we must sanitize the world of his diseased rhetoric.
posted by vverse23 at 8:33 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

I don't think Trump woud ever actually get physical with someone himself.

At this point, remind yourself of Ivana Trump's allegation of marital rape; that it was backtracked to "I felt violated"; and that in response to its re-emergence Trump's lawyer tried to claim that marital rape isn't rape. That's a statement that I'm never going to forget.

You think he wouldn't get physical? I believe her. Hell yes he'd get physical. He's a bully.

I suspect the "way worse"at minimum is that he's horrifically verbally abusive to his staffers.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 8:33 PM on August 2, 2016 [25 favorites]

And many who still aren't convinced, some of which will never be convinced. He's their guy.
Let me repeat that. HE'S THEIR GUY. Any of those people who own businesses near me I NEED to know who they are so I can NEVER do business with them. Why? If Trump's "their guy", then they are DISHONEST just like him. I just don't want to be cheated by dishonest businesspeople.
posted by oneswellfoop at 8:33 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

rom Katy Tur: The next 24 to 72 hours are crucial. There is serious talk about key Republicans coming out hard against Trump.

Go ahead. MAKE MY DAY.
posted by dnash at 8:35 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Seriously, does anyone know a way to get an alert when there's any impressively momentous bit of campaign news (e.g., Trump attacking the Khans) and new polls? So I can tune out the minute-to-minute stuff? This is nuts.

Maybe make yourself wait for new threads, since that would mean a significant update? I'm not sure "Trump attacks x" or yet another poll qualifies as momentous at this point. I don't know. I'm just some guy who split-screened the RNC/DNC threads with YouTube live feeds and I'm not even American. Or even in America, which meant it was the middle of my work day, not the evening. And I'm still avidly following these comments despite them being pushed from the front page. Hillary help me.
posted by nagemi at 8:37 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Ugh. I'm going to be traveling out of the US starting tomorrow and I'm not looking forward to the constant "What's wrong with your country?" questions I'll inevitably get. Plus I'm traveling with my dad and, while he's a soft Trump supporter ("I wouldn't have picked him but Hillary Clinton grumble grumble grumble repeats lie he heard"), it's still going to be rocky. As long as no one brings politics up I'm fine, but one mention and I fly off the handle and get argumentative and angry and just generally act like a dick. Which I feel awful about later, but I can't control in the moment (working on it!). I don't know how I'm going to last 2.5 weeks.

The moral support of these threads has been invaluable the past few weeks, so I imagine I'll use my international roaming data on MeFi within a few days and go way over budget. Which I can't really afford.

Trump is already ruining my finances and he hasn't even won yet.
posted by downtohisturtles at 8:39 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

I can't believe it's only Tuesday. Trump will probably double down tomorrow and say something like, "John McCain is so hanoing." McCain will refudiate but not withdraw his support.

I feel like we're living in the Upside Down of Stranger Things.

August is literally the worst month. And we still have the Olympics to look forward to!
posted by guiseroom at 8:39 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

I've got a plan to put a stake through the heart of birthisn for good. The birther rumors were started by Clinton surrogates back in 2008 as part of conspiracy to destroy Donald Trump in 2016.
posted by humanfont at 8:39 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

CNN has disclosed that Lewandowski is still on the Trump payroll. That's integrity in media for you.

Cite?

Well, you could spend five seconds of effort googling yourself, but you can see Don Lemon himself making the disclosure belatedly three weeks after putting him on the air and still collecting Trump's paychecks.
posted by JackFlash at 8:41 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

Downtohisturtles just adopt the standard USian overseas camo and claim to be Canadian.
posted by humanfont at 8:42 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Donald Trump and City of Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, Now Also Feuding

Meh, it's just Pennsylvania. It's not like it's anywhere electorally important.
posted by jackbishop at 8:43 PM on August 2, 2016 [9 favorites]

RE: CNN, Lewandowsky, and the Trump payroll, here's Media Matters on it.
posted by carmicha at 8:46 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

BTW, the "way worse" remarks were in response to this tweet:

"Manafort not challenging Trump anymore. Mailing it in. Staff suicidal."
posted by murphy slaw at 8:47 PM on August 2, 2016

OMG who is that Kayleigh person on MSNBC?
posted by ramix at 8:50 PM on August 2, 2016

IANTPsychiatrist, however, "Often grandiose, and always ready to raise hostility levels, the malignant narcissist undermines organizations in which they are involved, and dehumanizes the people with whom they associate." From A. Abdennur, Camouflaged Aggression (2000).
posted by Sophie1 at 8:52 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Trump sounds like a wanna-be mob boss in this part of the Wash Post interview -

TRUMP: And I am gonna do a couple PACs, at the right time.

RUCKER: What do you mean?

TRUMP: I’m gonna do two or three $10 million PACs at the right time.

RUCKER: What does that mean, though, a PAC?

TRUMP: Anti-certain candidate PACs.

RUCKER: You mean Clinton, or elsewhere?

TRUMP: I’m not saying against her, but I’m gonna do anti-, I’ll be active in politics through PACs at a later date.

RUCKER: Like during this election year, or?

TRUMP: No.

RUCKER: Or in the future?

TRUMP: For future elections.

RUCKER: Oh. So if there’s a candidate you don’t like who’s running, you would fund a PAC to hurt them?

TRUMP: Republican or Democrat.

RUCKER: Really?

TRUMP: Yeah. That I’ll do.

RUCKER: Would you do that against Cruz, if he runs again?

TRUMP: Maybe.

RUCKER: He seems to want to run again.

TRUMP: Maybe against Kasich.

posted by sallybrown at 8:53 PM on August 2, 2016 [20 favorites]

Good to see Trump's got his eye on the ball--really focused on this election, not letting hypothetical future revenge scenarios distract him or anything.
posted by dersins at 8:57 PM on August 2, 2016 [43 favorites]

He's like "Clinton? Who? Oh, her?"
posted by sallybrown at 8:59 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

>"worst recovery since the Great Depression"

Hokay:

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=6b9w

[Real (2009 dollars) per-capita net consumer borrowing per year]

Is one of the more important FRED graphs to understand

Prior to the 1970s, we were all on a tight credit regime, $1000 per capita debt increase.

The 1970s were largely inflationary as everyone started borrowing like crazy (wage-price spiral)

Note how the previous decade's good times were floated on a sea of consumer debt.

Even now net consumer borrowing is at what were recessionary levels last century.

Nobody really gets this.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 8:59 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

We're gonna create the biggest threads, the best. Ten, twenty thousand comments only the good comments. No sockpuppets, no losers, no babies. And it's going to be fantastic. True story.

QUIDNUNC/WORDPERFECT 2016
posted by petebest at 10:22 PM on 8/2

Hey now.....
posted by SecretAgentSockpuppet at 9:00 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

It may well be the worst idea ever, but I kinda want to attend... wHile wearing a burqa (I'm not Muslim).

Yeah, that definitely falls under cultural appropriation. And from a strategic point of view, it makes no sense--if you got news attention for being ejected for wearing it and then it came out that you're not Muslim, the Trump campaign would spin it as a Hillary smear job.
posted by joedan at 9:01 PM on August 2, 2016 [24 favorites]

If you haven't read that Rucker interview yet, you need to. We've gone beyond the pale several times already, but it's just crossed whatever the 4th or 5th pale is.
posted by codacorolla at 9:05 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

Rules on filling a vacancy in a nomination.
posted by Sophie1 at 9:08 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

It may well be the worst idea ever, but I kinda want to attend... wHile wearing a burqa (I'm not Muslim).

There are people organizing peaceful trump counter protests. If you want to help, then look for one, verify that it is peaceful, and stand with people who will lose their freedoms (and possibly their lives) in the event of a trump presidency. You will suffer people calling you names, spewing hate, but you will be saying to the people at the rally that you support them. Some of those people may be wearing burqas. You don't need to pretend to be someone else, just be yourself and say "as an American I do not support this man."
posted by codacorolla at 9:08 PM on August 2, 2016 [25 favorites]

My God, after seeing examples where Trump DM'ed people who insulted him, I really really want to tweet something to him like "You're right not to trust Ryan and McConnell, they're waiting for you to get elected so they can impeach you and install Pence." It just feels a little too much like playing with matches in a powder magazine.
posted by infinitewindow at 9:09 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Rience Priebus: Mexican judge, hmm ok. Muslim ban, yep. Abolish NATO, sure. Don't endorse Paul Ryan? NOW WAIT A GOTDAMN MINUTE HERE.
posted by T.D. Strange at 9:11 PM on August 2, 2016 [49 favorites]

It's amazing to see all these talking heads on MSNBC saying all the things the lefty hoi polloi was saying about ten years ago.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:12 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

If you haven't read that Rucker interview yet, you need to.

TRUMP:....So you heard my speech?

RUCKER: Mhm.

TRUMP: How did you like it?

RUCKER: It was interesting.

Oh hello there, damning with faint praise. I didn't see you come in.
posted by dersins at 9:13 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

More from same source: The next 24 to 72 hours are crucial. There is serious talk about key Republicans coming out hard against Trump.

At this rate, I'm not sure we'd necessarily be able to spot someone coming out hard at the Yam. The window for explicitly pulling existing endorsements seems to be closing fast.

To any GOP congress critters reading, I humbly submit these alternative options:

Start a new ~~No Homers~~No Donalds Party and exclude the current presidential nominee

Endorse Hillary (bwahahahaha I know you guys can't do this without opening your heart drain plug thing, but it is an option)

Accelerate the secret GOP Moon Base program schedule. Moon law is fresh and exciting!

posted by strange chain at 9:20 PM on August 2, 2016 [6 favorites]

I want to watch Rudy Rucker interview Trump. It would be the most entertaining ten minutes of my adult life, and that includes sex.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:22 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

Rachel Maddow is coming out hard on the Donald tonight.

That's great. I support her in this.

But why was she so soft during the conventions?
posted by yesster at 9:25 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Remember that time George W. Bush stood up and announced we were going to build a moon base and then we just didn't do that at all? Those were simpler times.
posted by zachlipton at 9:25 PM on August 2, 2016 [19 favorites]

Rules on filling a vacancy in a nomination.

More exciting speculation!

The RNC can replace the Presidential or VP candidate due to "death, declination or otherwise". Wonder what "otherwise" covers?

And, it might even mean reconvening the convention, with all the bizarreness and rules chaos that that could entail.

Not. Enough. Popcorn. In. The. World.
posted by gimonca at 9:30 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

The political science term for all of this is: OMFG.
posted by overglow at 9:30 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

I just made a donation to Anne Kirkpatrick's campaign. John McCain and his primary challenger need to be defeated in Arizona.
posted by wallabear at 9:41 PM on August 2, 2016 [13 favorites]

> Aww, it always warms my heart a little to see goodspaceguy still chuggin' away.
posted by lovecrafty at 9:52 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Mentioned above, but I would like to signal boost Owen Ellickson's Twitter, it is some of the funniest stuff coming out of the election so far. All his Trump dialogues are here.

TRUMP: What women don't get is, men harass because it's exciting for them. Sexually.
RYAN: They understand that.
TRUMP: Then why this fuss?!

posted by murphy slaw at 9:57 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

#KatrinaPiersonHistory
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 10:00 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

>So spell it out for us?

2000 - 2008 we counteracted the systemic rot by doubling consumer debt from $6T to $12T, nearly entirely via mortgage fraud-driven housing bubble of 2004-2007.

2008-2014 saw fiscal and monetary policy double the national debt, from $9T to $18T, including trillion-dollar-plus deficits for all of Obama's first term [all this spending prevented a 1930s scenario]

The general right-wing complaint is that this is the 'weakest recovery ever'.

But one reason is previous recessions 1950 - 2001 were exogenous -- the Fed was fucking with us essentially.

2007 was very different, we had run-up our credit cards 2000-2006 and the bill was coming due, a bill we could not pay after the housing bubble popped in 2006.

Another cause of our slower growth now is demographics:

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=6bam shows that between 1980 and 2007 the workforce was growing 1-2%+ each year, but now that the boomers are retiring we're down to half that rate of growth.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 10:03 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

RUCKER: Can we talk about the debates for a minute?

TRUMP: Squirrel!
posted by kirkaracha at 10:06 PM on August 2, 2016 [14 favorites]

It's also telling how conventionally screwed up Trump's entire approach to media is. Normally, campaigns and presidential administrations try to avoid, or at least strategically dole out, process stories, news stories about the political process as opposed to substance. The Clinton campaign, for instance, would normally rather talk about making child care more affordable than the resignation of DNC officials, for example (today, they are perfectly fine talking about nothing at all and trying not to make the slightest noise, lest they accidentally take any attention away from the dumpster fire next door). Reporters, knowing that articles about child care plans aren't great for clicks and you can only write about the same plan so many times, fish around for whatever shiny distraction they can get their hands on, and this is where we get the silly season.

Trump, on the other hand, is a walking silly season. I'd be giving him too much credit to say it's intentional, but he manages to distract from his horrible to non-existent policies by creating process story after process story. Every single presidential campaign for decades has dealt with fire marshals across the country, yet we've never heard a peep about them before. Why? Because any remotely competent campaign would tell you that ranting about fire marshals is bad media strategy, that you don't turn the nation's attention to fire marshals when you want to talk about taxes or immigrants or health care or ending a war or starting a war or whatever your campaign is built on.

I'd say it's a blunder, that Trump's communication strategy is non-existent, but then again his campaign is non-existent, so it's all he has left. What would he rather talk about: how many billions of dollars the wall will cost, or what he thinks of the local fire marshal? And what would he rather we be thinking about: that he called to ban the entirely of a major world religion from the country, or that so many people want to come to his rallies? Again, I think this give him too much credit––he mostly just lashes out at anybody in his peripheral vision without thinking––, but to the extent there's a strategy there, the silly stuff is all he's got, so he has to make it stick.
posted by zachlipton at 10:06 PM on August 2, 2016 [12 favorites]

@willmenaker
The party I once knew & loved, the party of decency, of Barry Goldwater, Roy Cohn, Jesse Helms, & Edwin Meese--is no more, and I am weeping.

posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:08 PM on August 2, 2016 [23 favorites]

For those of you looking for some small sign of Republicans returning to sanity, I have a little good news for you. Kansas held our non-presidential primary today. Most of the pro-Brownback, Koch-funded, teabagger incumbents were kicked out of office. Almost every moderate Republican candidate had a very good night. The moderates, who are essentially a third party right now in all but name, have vowed to work with the Democrats in the legislature and should have a veto-proof majority. The moderates sounded almost like Democrats in all the advertising. Promising a return to good schools, good roads, and a functional, competent government.

It's a near complete repudiation of Brownback and his cronies. A big loss for whatever's left of the tea party ideology in Kansas. And the Koch Bros./ Americans For Prosperity couldn't buy themselves a third election in a row despite spending a ton. Assuming the Democrat-Moderate Republican coalition can hold together, this basically means Brownback's administration is over despite two years being left in his term.

Probably silly to take this as a hopeful omen or a reason for optimism, but I'm going to go with it anyways.
posted by honestcoyote at 10:15 PM on August 2, 2016 [124 favorites]

There's a lot of media coming out overnight, calling into question Donald Trump's mental health.

We've discussed this a bit upthread here.

Please, I hope that those of us with actual documented mental illness don't take this too personally. It is difficult.

I don't want to be disqualified for my ambitions because of my illnesses.

I think it is wrong to disqualify people for their illnesses.

However, there are times when it makes sense to reduce harm, when someone is in a position of intention and capability to do harm to others.

Trump is in that position.

It's not us, it's him.

They're not talking about us when they say these things.
posted by yesster at 10:17 PM on August 2, 2016 [40 favorites]

Denunciations from the GOP Elite will surely be the end of TRUMP, what with the way his supporters are really into deference towards establishment politicians.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 10:19 PM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

I made a Trump Campaign Bingo Card.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 10:26 PM on August 2, 2016 [10 favorites]

...his supporters are really into deference towards establishment politicians. 🍔🍔🍔
"His followers" being a subset of the Republican Party... how large a subset, we don't know, but we're gonna find out. And "NOT into deference towards establishment politicians" is a category that also includes much of the Libertarian Party (mostly those who think former Governor Johnson was TOO establishment), pretty much all of the Green Party and most of the 'BernieOrBust' holdouts (as if Bernie had zero establishment connections before he "sold out"). There may be more "anti-establishment" feeling out there right now than ever before, but how much? And where will they go? No pollster can tell you right now, but we're gonna find out. STAY TUNED!
posted by oneswellfoop at 10:34 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

A big loss for whatever's left of the tea party ideology in Kansas.

Tim Huelskamp was defeated in his US House primary, which is interesting and hard to pin down: a Tea Party conservative from the 2010 intake, but also a Cruz supporter and #neverTrump diehard facing off against a Trump supporter.
posted by holgate at 10:38 PM on August 2, 2016 [2 favorites]

Denunciations from the GOP Elite will surely be the end of TRUMP, what with the way his supporters are really into deference towards establishment politicians.

There are a lot of non-insane fiscal conservatives out there trying to figure out what the fuck they are supposed to do this election because they've always voted Republican but this really feels off to them.

Right now they're thinking about Johnson, but in the end they'll probably pull the lever next to the (R). Third parties mostly underperform pre-election day polling, because when it comes down to it, a lot of people who say they're going (G) or (L), revert to (D) and (R).

But what if they feel like they've been given permission not to revert?

These folks aren't Trump's supporters now--not yet, anyway--but this can help keep them from becoming his supporters.
posted by dersins at 10:40 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

surely this . . .

After waiting what seems like decades for the "surely this" moment, it looks like history is going to record this week as the week when every single "sure this" came home to roost, all at once.

There's a whole coop full of 'em now, and they're just roosting away like gangbusters. A sight to behold, never seen anything like it . . .
posted by flug at 10:41 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

Probably silly to take this as a hopeful omen or a reason for optimism, but I'm going to go with it anyways.
posted by honestcoyote at 10:15 PM on August 2 [14 favorites −] [!]

Sounds like Kansas is on its way to fixing itself. It's a great message going forward to this fall. Let's bring out votes for the down-ticket races and lock this up as a landslide for Hillary.
posted by yesster at 10:45 PM on August 2, 2016 [7 favorites]

Apparently I'm not the only one happy with the Kansas results.
posted by honestcoyote at 10:46 PM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

I'm starting to get the feeling the Tea Partiers were just an in-between warm up act after the old Republicans and before the fascists. They seemed awful and completely out of touch with reality. But at least they generally were conservatives. Who had some set of principles. Not good principles, mind you, but consistent ones for the most part. With Trumpers you can't even argue about liberal/conservative or right/left because it's all just whatever Trump says now. Any semblance of political cares go right out the window if Trump had a bad breakfast. Where do you even start with someone like that?
posted by downtohisturtles at 10:48 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

> @willmenaker
The party I once knew & loved, the party of decency, of Barry Goldwater, Roy Cohn, Jesse Helms, & Edwin Meese--is no more, and I am weeping.

Speaking of Cohn: ‘He Brutalized For You’: How Joseph McCarthy henchman Roy Cohn became Donald Trump’s mentor.
posted by homunculus at 10:50 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

Maybe we'll see some empathy from Trump, now that someone's given him a heart.
posted by Somn at 10:55 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

I thought as soon as I saw the Ryan/McCain bashing this afternoon that there's probably a huge behind the scenes whirlwind of phone calls and meetings, people trying to figure out how to get out of this. I would not be surprised to hear something from top Republicans tomorrow.

What I expect is some sort of written statement from Trump giving his endorsement to Ryan and McCain. It'll be coherent and non-insulting, too, meaning it won't be written by Trump himself. And for about five minutes into whatever interactions he has during the day, he'll back it up and shrug off any controversy about it.

Then, before the day is over, Trump's mouth will kick in. He'll spew about how Priebus came crying to him and boo-hoo and he had to endorse those jerks even though they didn't really endorse him right away, but whatever. The GOP will spend that entire 72-hour window wringing its hands about whether Trump really meant his endorsement or not, or if he's just undone the whole thing no matter how you look at it.

He's going to drag this out for maximum stress and maximum drama. The only real question, as with the rest of this campaign, will be if it's deliberate or if he really isn't thinking about it at all.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 10:58 PM on August 2, 2016 [13 favorites]

> I made a Trump Campaign Bingo Card.

"Calls someone a faggot or pussy"

Bingo!
posted by homunculus at 10:59 PM on August 2, 2016

I'm not sure that counts; he was repeating someone else's line. I believe he agreed with it, but he didn't directly use the insult himself.

Give him a couple of days; I'm sure he'll correct his error.
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 11:07 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

codacorolla: I was wondering if you could define elections by events. Like Jeremiah Wright is an event, and then maybe sub-events are like McCain bringing that to light, and then Obama's race speech in response. I was wondering, if you coded several elections like that, what this election would look like. At less than a week in.

There are a number of social science methodologies that use event series as the basis for analysis. I've toyed with the idea of doing a quick and dirty analysis of this election season, except it wouldn't really be quick, and things happen so quickly it would be hard to keep up with while it's ongoing.
Not ruling it out, though. I'm mad curious.
posted by Superplin at 11:15 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

I was wondering if you could define elections by events. Like Jeremiah Wright is an event, and then maybe sub-events are like McCain bringing that to light, and then Obama's race speech in response. I was wondering, if you coded several elections like that, what this election would look like. At less than a week in.

Just for the record, the Wright controversy happened in March 2008, and at the time McCain mostly gave Obama a pass while Clinton did not.
posted by one_bean at 11:22 PM on August 2, 2016

God I miss Gore Vidal. I can only imagine his take on all of this bullshit with the sincerest of regrets.
posted by supercrayon at 11:27 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

Donald Trump has no idea what his "rigged election" talk could unleash: Trump is nonchalantly taking a sledgehammer to the bedrock of the American government.
posted by homunculus at 11:36 PM on August 2, 2016 [8 favorites]

I had a bit of respect for CNN during some of the last 2 weeks.

But when they give legitimacy (and money) to Lewandowski? That's inexcusable.
posted by yesster at 11:38 PM on August 2, 2016 [5 favorites]

I previously commented: "It's a good thing Trump & Company just aren't competent enough to rig the election themselves, because that looks like a World Class case of 'projection'." But I just realized that he probably has the full support of Russian Hackers and wonder if that was a dog-whistled signal to tell them to get to work on it...

Sorry for the nightmare fuel...
posted by oneswellfoop at 11:48 PM on August 2, 2016 [1 favorite]

Looking at those Kansas non-presidential primary results, I can't help but be buoyed up by them. Lots of solid majorities in the region of 8 points for what look like good old-fashioned moderate Republicans over the maniacs. I don't know much about Kansas politics beyond watching with horror what Brownback was up to and wondering what was in the minds of the voters - which is my default position on so much these days - but it really does look like enough was enough.

It certainly ooesn't look like there was any appetite for even more insanity. Here's hoping.
posted by Devonian at 11:50 PM on August 2, 2016 [3 favorites]

zombieflanders: "At today's Trump rally in VA a Trump supporter answers #LoveTrumpsHate chant with HATE WILL WIN before shouted down

This is the new normal."

It sounds more like the anti-Trump people chanting "hate won't win," tbh. I've got a hard time seeing anybody being cartoonishly evil enough to scream "hate will win" in public -- even neo-Nazis think they're the good guys.
posted by Rhaomi at 11:51 PM on August 2, 2016 [4 favorites]

So, with the Republicans in disarray and election results rolling back the Tea Party gains it looks from this side of the Atlantic that our only problem in the UK was that Nigel Farage was too sane.

Bugger.
posted by fullerine at 12:28 AM on August 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

Donald Trump has no idea what his "rigged election" talk could unleash: Trump is nonchalantly taking a sledgehammer to the bedrock of the American government.

And it's definitely worse when it comes from the candidate like this, but it also needs to be shouted down when it comes from people on the left. There is a cadre of Sanders supporters who still insist that he only lost because the primary was rigged. Not, like, thumb-on-the-scale DNC stuff but actual voter fraud stealing the election. That sort of talk needs to be met with scorn.

Hell, there are probably a bunch of people reading this thread who believe that Bush stole the election in Ohio against Kerry with rigged voting machines.
posted by Justinian at 12:34 AM on August 3, 2016 [21 favorites]

Hell, there are probably a bunch of people reading this thread who believe that Bush stole the election in Ohio against Kerry with rigged voting machines.

I think a lot of this comes from the widespread belief that election fraud occurred during Jack Kennedy's run in the 60's. The Republicans believe that an election was literally stolen from them, and this bitterness has wormed its way into the heart of the party and spawned dozens of ugly little laws that attempt to disenfranchise exactly the type of voter most likely to elect Democrats. I think this sense of injustice is also behind the push for gerrymandering. On the Democratic side, there is still bitterness over the 2000 brouhaha with the chads and all that insanity in FL, and that wound is much fresher than the Kennedy situation. As a result, both sides seem disinclined to believe actual statistics and data gathering about the voting system in general.

Personally I was horrified when my state switched from those ridiculously old-fashioned but totes adorbs curtained lever machines to electronic machines, but my concern is less about the possibility of internal election rigging than interference from outside interested parties--China, Russia, and North Korea in particular. Thankfully, about 80% of Americans vote on paper or on paper-backed systems. Unfortunately, the other 20% live in states like Pennsylvania, Florida, and Virginia.
posted by xyzzy at 2:07 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

Hello all! Have been away for a day or so! Did I miss anyth_{whatthefuckohjesuswhatisgoingonhere}
posted by garius at 2:19 AM on August 3, 2016 [36 favorites]

So, in summary, here are some stuff Trump said or did today:

Sexually harassed women should change careers.
We shouldn't use wind turbines because all birds will die.
Always wanted a purple heart and taking it from a vet was easier.
Crying babies need to leave.
Fuck Ryan and McCain.
Campaign staff suicidal.
NYT writers suck and don't write good.
Damages only path to victory by saying Harrisburg, PA looks like war zone.

I think that was all today. Did I miss anything? People, that's ALL TODAY.
posted by Justinian at 2:21 AM on August 3, 2016 [43 favorites]

So, in summary, here are some stuff Trump said or did today: [etc]

He's gone full M. Bison hasn't he?

Fast forward to the debates...

CLINTON (angrily): I remember that day. You said harassed women should change careers! Took a Purple Heart from a veteran! Insulted a baby! Said PA looked like a warzone and fucked over Ryan and McCain! And you don't remember it?

TRUMP: For you, that day when Donald Trump said those things was the most important day in your campaign. For Donald Trump? It was Tuesday.
posted by garius at 2:30 AM on August 3, 2016 [9 favorites]

Interesting: How Did Gold Stars Come to Represent Grieving Military Families?
posted by Joe in Australia at 2:37 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

> "I think that was all today. Did I miss anything? People, that's ALL TODAY."

I believe he also said the election was going to be rigged, kicked AARP members out of his rally, came out against mine safety inspections because of the problems they cause mine owners, doubled down on his attacks on fire marshals and fire safety, and tripled down on his attacks on the grieving parents of a military hero. I think he also mentioned trade policy once.
posted by kyrademon at 2:38 AM on August 3, 2016 [26 favorites]

I honestly forgot about that stuff. All in like 36 hours.

Is this real life?
posted by Justinian at 2:42 AM on August 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

I hope he takes today off. I'm exhausted.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:45 AM on August 3, 2016 [14 favorites]

You forgot about wind power killing all the birds.

TRUMP: “The wind kills all your birds. All your birds, killed. You know, the environmentalists never talk about that.”

Nevermind that engineers have re-designed wind turbines to turn slower and reduce harm to our feathered friends or that far, far more birds are killed by feral cats and tall buildings each year than by wind turbines. Just forget about all that.
posted by xyzzy at 2:57 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

CNN has this Carnak the Magnificent-style headline today:

"Putin, babies, the NFL"

(Just some of the things Trump totally changed his mind on)

I think that whole "We have to treat both candidates like they are equally good / bad" thing has finally gone out the window.
posted by mmoncur at 3:01 AM on August 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

Hm. Does saying the polls are phony fall under the category of "the election is rigged" or is that its own thing?
posted by kyrademon at 3:08 AM on August 3, 2016

Heh, the NFL thing kills me. Trump has a fraught history with the NFL. Stymied in his efforts to buy an NFL team, he became a YUGE investor in the USFL which he then completely destroyed by insisting they play in the fall and not the spring. In the ultimate showdown, Trump spearheaded an anti-trust lawsuit against the NFL despite being offered several multi-million dollar contracts to run USFL spring games and ended up technically winning the anti-trust portion of the lawsuit but lost in every other way. The USFL got $3. Because they didn't get bajillions of dollars in settlement money that they expected, the USFL folded.

So Trump has really changed his mind about the NFL. A few times.
posted by xyzzy at 3:11 AM on August 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

TRUMP: “The wind kills all your birds. All your birds, killed. You know, the environmentalists never talk about that.”

The real story behind that is how those pesky swedes are ruining his precious view:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_International_Golf_Club_Scotland_Ltd_v_The_Scottish_Ministers

The environmentalists of course had concerns both about the wind farms and trump's golf resort, and trump tried to use the former fact to stop the latter, but that was ten years ago so why would he remember that?
posted by effbot at 3:28 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

I know how we all feel about Joe Scarborough and Mika Brzezinski but they are tearing Trump and the Republican leadership who refuse to withdraw their endorsements new ones right now. And in case anyone needs more incentive to get out there and make sure Trump doesn't get anywhere near the Oval Office: Joe Scarborough says he was talking to a foreign policy expert who was in a briefing with Trump a while back and that in an hour briefing Trump asked three times about nuclear weapons and why, if we have nuclear weapons, we can't/don't use them.

Yes, in one hour Trump asked three times why we don't use nuclear weapons.
posted by Justinian at 3:46 AM on August 3, 2016 [71 favorites]

Yes, in one hour Trump asked three times why we don't use nuclear weapons.

I probably did that at least a couple of times during latter seasons of The Good Wife.
posted by Etrigan at 3:57 AM on August 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

Trump: "I don't regret anything" about the attacks on the Khans.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, can a reporter ask him this question:

"Can you give us an example of something you DO regret?"

I'd really like to see him try to answer that. I don't think he's capable of regret and I think he'll say something like "I regret all of the people out there who are thinking of voting for Crooked Hillary".
posted by mmoncur at 4:00 AM on August 3, 2016 [13 favorites]

Despite a true grilling from the Morning Joe crew, Ari Fleischer will not will not WILL NOT say he'd consider voting for Clinton over Trump. To me you can feel the sexism thick in the room - "I won't vote for that woman and YOU CAN'T MAKE ME!!! Waaaaah!!!!" And that's why the big Republican endorsers in the last few days have been prominent women - they don't buy into the caricature as much.
posted by sallybrown at 4:17 AM on August 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'd really like to see him try to answer that. I don't think he's capable of regret and I think he'll say something like "I regret all of the people out there who are thinking of voting for Crooked Hillary".

regret requires self-reflection
posted by leotrotsky at 4:19 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

Most politicians try to move the Overtron window; Trump is the first one to try to jump through it.
posted by humanfont at 4:22 AM on August 3, 2016 [11 favorites]

You didn't feel the heat of Ari's pants burning, as they always are, every minute of every day since he was congealed from the core of Hell?
posted by Yowser at 4:24 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

The tone of the discourse is changing, I think. Trump's critics smell blood in the water. A friend of mine on FB just posted about the Purple Heart fiasco, and there were dozens of comments, all gleeful. My favorite comments so far are "he is the dumbest motherfucker ever" and "I've heard more coherent comments on the Bachlorette."

Time to get me some popcorn
posted by suburbanbeatnik at 4:29 AM on August 3, 2016 [8 favorites]

He called several Trump staffers to express his displeasure.

He also made them promise not to play Pokemon Go again until they were out of being grounded.
posted by winna at 4:30 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

Apparently I'm not the only one happy with the Kansas results.

Oh John Boehner, you soused little piece of shit, I salute you just this once and I hope you're enjoying the light show.
posted by saturday_morning at 4:38 AM on August 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

I think Trump took that Instagram meme about how Beyoncé has the same hours in the day as you do a bit too much to heart and decided to show just how much he could accomplish in 24 hours. Unfortunately he also miss-applied "slay" to mean "wreak havoc to your campaign for president".
posted by like_neon at 4:41 AM on August 3, 2016

I'm still wondering why I was ever concerned that after nominated, Trump would 'pivot' and put on a more Presidential face and temperament. I really was scared that he would do that.
I knew the guy wasn't super swift in the policy wonker department but I did think that he had some sort of smarts in his head.

I think I'm just absolutely astounded that someone that really is so simpleminded could make it this far. And by simpleminded I mean that once I throw away this belief that someone running for office at this level has to have at least some ability for complex thought between their ears I'm left watching someone whose thoughts and reactions are super simple.

In Trump world, you praise and think he's fabulous and he's all you're awesome. Say or do anything the least bit negative towards him, you're fired, you suck and he will throw you to the wolves. He will make sure everyone else knows it too.

And not only this he will just switch even within the same conversation and seemingly have no comprehension that he's done so. It's like there are two buttons connected to separate computer programs in his head and it just depends on which one has been pushed.

I think it's very telling that the one type of thing that he actually does or is capable of remembering are what he perceives as personal slights. Paul Ryan is the latest example with his statement about 'not quite there yet' echoing one of Ryan's statements about him.

Of course he much prefers people pushing the adoration button and everything his brain tells him to do 'in the moment' is all about getting people back to pushing it and freaking the fuck out at people that aren't or won't.
posted by Jalliah at 4:47 AM on August 3, 2016 [14 favorites]

I'm still wondering why I was ever concerned that after nominated, Trump would 'pivot' and put on a more Presidential face and temperament. I really was scared that he would do that.

As you say, it's because you assume no one could make it this far and be this terrible at controlling himself and other basic executive functioning skills. Trump, however, like most landlords, is proof that capitalism does a terrible job selecting the best and brightest.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 4:56 AM on August 3, 2016 [37 favorites]

"Trump asked three times in an hour briefing, Why can't we use nuclear weapons?"
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 4:59 AM on August 3, 2016 [31 favorites]

The weird stuff that he does-- like not having a campaign headquarters in NC or stumping in Maine where he doesn't have a chance or tossing out members of the AARP-- all start to make sense when you realize he is not running for President of the United States, he is running for President of the Donald Trump fan club.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:05 AM on August 3, 2016 [8 favorites]

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, can a reporter ask him this question:

"Can you give us an example of something you DO regret?"

Answer: "Sure, there are lots of things I regret. For example, I regret that I haven't run earlier. The country would be in a different shape today without the desaster of Obama and Clinton. I have lots of friends, famous people, successful people, they always said, Donald, they said, you gotta do something. You gotta run. Total desaster. Totally different shape. We wouldn't be losing all the time. Clinton should be in jail, she's the devil. It's only a matter of time until China takes over. And the veterans, the good people at our military, they always ... HEY, CAN SOMEONE PLEASE GET THIS STUPID BABY OUTTA MY FACE, NOW! Thank you. So I totally regret that."
posted by sour cream at 5:06 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

"Trump asked three times in an hour briefing, Why can't we use nuclear weapons?"

Trump for king of the post-nuclear cockroaches.

Two early morning realizations: Donnie* is the obnoxiously oversized balloon of party decorations: big and colorful and grabs everyone's attention, but it's just a lot of hot air, temporarily contained in a cheap rubber skin.

And Donny's* answers to tough interview questions sound like responses to a job interview, when asked to name a weakness that is really a strength. "Well, sometimes I care too much. And my greatest sacrifice is that I'm so darned dedicated to success that I put myself second. I just want my businesses to succeed, so sometimes I lose sight of me, ya know?"

* Instead of trying to rebrand him as "Drumpf," I've taken to calling him Donnie/ Donny, with no care for consistency in spelling. It seems appropriate.
posted by filthy light thief at 5:10 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

And like a balloon, Donnie's end could be a sudden pop, a slow deflate, or maybe he'll just float away and threaten wildlife somewhere else.
posted by filthy light thief at 5:23 AM on August 3, 2016 [9 favorites]

I keep seeing this about issue over issue, but I hope that nuclear weapons thing finally gets the GOP to take the off ramp. Use your influence to get all the reasonably persuadable people off the Trump Train. It gives them a way to point to something more serious than "Trump dissed me."
posted by sallybrown at 5:25 AM on August 3, 2016 [11 favorites]

It's like the guy can even fuck up his own campaign in his sleep.
posted by penduluum at 5:39 AM on August 3, 2016 [8 favorites]

The shocked silence after the nuclear weapons claim... all you can hear is the cameraperson's jaw dropping.

Somewhere upthread, it was mentioned that nukes are the only aspect of foreign policy where Trump has any record of showing an interest, in that he's on record (for what that's worth) of saying he thinks about them a lot, reads about them a lot. It beggars belief that you can read a single paragraph about nuclear weapons without realising why they're not there to be used, but with this candidate my belief's been in Chapter 11 for months.

So: today's off to a good start, then.
posted by Devonian at 5:55 AM on August 3, 2016 [32 favorites]

The shocked silence after the nuclear weapons claim... all you can hear is the cameraperson's jaw dropping.

The thing I genuinely will never understand is how so many apparently not-stupid people are surprised that an ignorant, dangerous blowhard is an ignorant, dangerous blowhard. What did all these people think was going to happen, he would win the nomination and suddenly become a sober adult? Can anyone possibly be that naive?
posted by winna at 6:04 AM on August 3, 2016 [22 favorites]

Wow - Mika's face in that clip. Now I'm really scared.
posted by mumimor at 6:09 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Devonian, that's scary.

Although on the other hand, there's this video out there where he's asked on his opinion on the nuclear triad. He's obviously never heard it, but instead of admitting that, he just tries to bullshit his way out of the question ("When it comes to nuclear, that's a total game-changer, so that's very important...."), and Marco Rubio then later explains it to him. I think the video was called something like along the lines of "The stupidest thing that any politician has said, like, ever."

Now, I admit that I didn't know what the nuclear triad was before watching that video, but then again, I'm not running for president and don't really have any interest in "nuclear." So for thinking or reading about them a lot, it certainly doesn't seem like he is very informed on that topic. In fact, he doesn't sound like he has ever spent even 30 min with it. Maybe that's the really scary thing here.
posted by sour cream at 6:13 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

I honestly forgot about that stuff. All in like 36 hours.

Is this real life?

I've had to reset my expectations so many times my head is spinning.
posted by Surely This at 6:21 AM on August 3, 2016

Where's the pivot? There was supposed to be an earth-shattering pivot!
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:22 AM on August 3, 2016 [10 favorites]

(Anyone who thought he was gonna pivot was naively projecting the image of a presidential candidate onto a gibbering void in human form)
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:23 AM on August 3, 2016 [17 favorites]

"Trump asked three times in an hour briefing, Why can't we use nuclear weapons?"

So basically he's Bad Bob Booth, final president of the United States before the great Atom War and the rise of the Judges. Dammit, 2000AD.
posted by Artw at 6:26 AM on August 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

This is not fine!
posted by Artw at 6:29 AM on August 3, 2016 [26 favorites]

Where's the pivot? There was supposed to be an earth-shattering pivot!

He actually kind of seemed more sane in the primaries. I think maybe this is the pivot, and he just went the wrong way.
posted by sporkwort at 6:30 AM on August 3, 2016 [16 favorites]

And it's definitely worse when it comes from the candidate like this, but it also needs to be shouted down when it comes from people on the left.

Not every example of an election official screwing up is prima facie evidence of a conspiracy, nor does the fact that the machines are insecure mean that they're being used to steal elections. Still, there's a big difference between saying months ahead of time that you're going to have the election stolen from you vs. calling attention to actual irregularities.
posted by tonycpsu at 6:31 AM on August 3, 2016

Although I think some things have been clear about Trump for a very long time, for instance, that he's petty and sexist and demeaning, I think that there was a legitimate thought among many people that he was putting on a bit of a show for the primary. Not that he was saying things he didn't believe, but that he was letting himself say things he did believe that were doing him good in the primary, among a GOP audience, that he would then muzzle in the general. After all, this is a man that has had some level of success. If, in regular old conversation people cannot admit that white male privilege exists, I think it's reasonable (though wrong) that those same people can't possibly admit that it entirely explains someone like Trump's success. So, I think the "pivot" people were operating under a reasonable, though incorrect, assumption about how his behavior would change.
posted by OmieWise at 6:31 AM on August 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

It's been interesting to watch the narrowing spot on the Venn diagram for people whose personal safety hasn't been threatened by Donald Trump yet. Like, "it's not me I'm worried about, I'm white/male/straight/non-Muslim/not a baby/not a fire marshal, I'm just trying to protect my sister/mom/wife/friends ..."

There's kind of a warmth to being an ally, instead of being the actual victim of the hate campaign? It's a privilege that I've had a lot of opportunity to try on recently, and that in some perverse way invites me to minimize some of the threats Trump poses.

Anyway, as far as I know I'm not immune to nuclear fallout. It's a good reminder that, yes, this fight is for my wife and my sister and my mother, but it's for me, too.
posted by john hadron collider at 6:32 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

This is not fine!

Ha!
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 6:34 AM on August 3, 2016

So he's going for the highly coveted Nelson Muntz demographic?
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:34 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

He actually kind of seemed more sane in the primaries. I think maybe this is the pivot, and he just went the wrong way.

I think he just had less camera time and was always shown against a background of the likes of Carson and Cruz.
posted by Artw at 6:36 AM on August 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

"Trump asked three times in an hour briefing, Why can't we use nuclear weapons?"

And Joe Scarborough said this happened "months ago"? Why is he just now bringing this up? Was it not relevant before now that the Republican nominee is itching to press the nuclear button? Was Joe just going to sit on this information forever until he was passed over for Trump's running mate? Remember it was less than 3 months ago that Scarborough was fluffing Trump for his entire 4 hour a day time slot, but now I guess he's bitter and finally decided to let this out.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:37 AM on August 3, 2016 [28 favorites]

Maybe the immunity bubble has only just popped and before America would have just been all "oh, he's nuke crazy? That's adorable!"

TBH I still don't trust people not to vote for him, even with guaranteed Armageddon.
posted by Artw at 6:39 AM on August 3, 2016 [8 favorites]

Yeah Joe should not get a cookie for this one. He's only telling the dangerous truth now that there's blood in the water. He's still a coward who wouldn't do his job if there was any risk in it.

I do think a tide has turned.
posted by schadenfrau at 6:40 AM on August 3, 2016 [8 favorites]

Aside from the relative lack of air time just making him blend into the background of the horse race, it also insulated him personally. It seems clear by now that Trump really can't let go of an insult or slight, and now that the focus is 100% on him, more of his gaffes are noticed and called out, and it's actually really getting to him.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:40 AM on August 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

We have no idea when Scarborough received that information. It could have been last night.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:42 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

Doesn't he say that it happened months ago and he was personally there?
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:43 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

He said it happened months ago, but I didn't hear him say he was there.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 6:43 AM on August 3, 2016

The briefing between Trump and the foreign policy expert happened months ago. It's not clear when the foreign policy expert told Joe Scarborough about it.
posted by peacheater at 6:45 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

His source is the foreign policy adviser that was briefing Trump.
posted by Think_Long at 6:45 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

nor does the fact that the machines are insecure mean that they're being used to steal elections

The thing though is that the level of insecurity in the machines means we just don't know, can't know, will never know, whether or not they were manipulated in 2004 (Kerry seemed think they were himself but decided not to make a fuss) or will be manipulated now. But I know HRC has studied the campaigns of LBJ and knows that it's your own damn fault if you don't steal the election better than the other guy.
posted by dis_integration at 6:46 AM on August 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

He implies he was there, but doesn't say so outright. It's one of those vague claims that I'm hesitant to take at face value, largely because there's not much face there.

And yeah, I question why this is only now coming out.
posted by Superplin at 6:47 AM on August 3, 2016

So... Is anyone going to ask him about the nukes today?
posted by Artw at 6:49 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

He actually kind of seemed more sane in the primaries. I think maybe this is the pivot, and he just went the wrong way.

Trump has been in the public eye for decades, though. A simple google would have made it clear that he is not fit to be third grade milk monitor, never mind president of the US. It's true the scale and scope of his unfitness has been made clearer but it was always perfectly plain he was a terrible disaster.
posted by winna at 6:49 AM on August 3, 2016 [22 favorites]

Scarborough still deserves minimal credit even if that report proves to be true and if he only heard about it this morning, he's one of the biggest non-FOX culprits responsible for Trump's victory.
posted by T.D. Strange at 6:50 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

And not the first time he's said something similar about nukes. From a March interview with Chris Matthews:

MATTHEWS: They're hearing a guy running for president of the United States talking of maybe using nuclear weapons. Nobody wants to hear that about an American president.

TRUMP: Then why are we making them? Why do we make them?
posted by chris24 at 6:50 AM on August 3, 2016 [11 favorites]

So... Is anyone going to ask him about the nukes today?

If so, do we want to get a bookie in here to take our bets on "I never said that" vs. "Double down, nukes are awesome"?
posted by soren_lorensen at 6:50 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

I bet on both.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:51 AM on August 3, 2016 [22 favorites]

Most Americans suffer from a character flaw where they assume rich people have done something to deserve being rich. That's really the only reason he's got this far.

That and the base appeals to racism and sexism, obvs.
posted by Artw at 6:52 AM on August 3, 2016 [28 favorites]

Wait guys, the nuke love and the 1950s social mores make sense! This isn't really happening, we just all stayed up too late playing Fallout and are just hallucinating! Right? Right???

*pours vodka on Cheerios*
posted by corb at 6:54 AM on August 3, 2016 [31 favorites]

Oh John Boehner, you soused little piece of shit, I salute you just this once and I hope you're enjoying the light show.

great twitter comment: "Trump puts everyone I've ever disliked into perspective."
posted by leotrotsky at 6:54 AM on August 3, 2016 [57 favorites]

The nuke rumors are also in line with his comment a few months back that Japan and Korea should get their own nukes too. Most of Japan has seen him as a scary madman ever since.
posted by p3t3 at 6:54 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

He implies he was there, but doesn't say so outright.

I don't see that. Sounds like he's quoting a source who has insisted on anonymity:

HAROLD FORD JR.: General Hayden, Harold Ford, very, very quickly. Who amongst your peers that you respect greatly, whether they think like you or not think like you, that you know that's advising Mr. Trump?

HAYDEN: No one.

MIKE BARNICLE: That's a good answer.

SCARBOROUGH: I have to follow up with that, I'll be careful here. Several months ago, a foreign policy expert on the international level went to advise Donald Trump, and three times he asked about the use of nuclear weapons. Three times he asked, at one point, "If we have them, why can't we use them?"

BARNICLE: Wow.

SCARBOROUGH: That's one of the reasons why he has -- he just doesn't have foreign policy experts around him.

(Media Matters transcript)
posted by john hadron collider at 6:56 AM on August 3, 2016 [16 favorites]

Scarborough still deserves minimal credit even if that report proves to be true and if he only heard about it this morning, he's one of the biggest non-FOX culprits responsible for Trump's victory.

I've been under the impression that Scarborough and the Morning Joe crew have been generally anti-Trump (to Trump's visible annoyance)....is that wrong?
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:03 AM on August 3, 2016

"If we have them, why can't we use them?"

Welp humanity we had a good run.
posted by winna at 7:03 AM on August 3, 2016 [8 favorites]

The thing about Trump seeming so gung ho about nuclear weapons is that it fits into the pattern of a person who is a sociopath. He has no regard for human life. Who cares if a few hundred thousand people died -- wouldn't it be cool to just, like, see what happens when we drop a big one?
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 7:04 AM on August 3, 2016 [10 favorites]

Plot twist. @ChrisCoons @SenWhitehouse call on Cruz to hold a hearing to look at Trump/Russia ties and 2016 election
posted by zombieflanders at 7:04 AM on August 3, 2016 [18 favorites]

Donald Trump could go nuclear in seconds, and there's no mechanism to stop him.
posted by chris24 at 7:04 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

"The party I once knew & loved, the party of decency, of Barry Goldwater, Roy Cohn, Jesse Helms, & Edwin Meese--is no more, and I am weeping."
omigosh...! a nascent theory of inexplicable conservative morality politics. So my grandfather and other stalwart straight-ticket-all-their-lives fiscal republicans had to have suffered agonies with the advent of the crowds of despicable criminal clowns and clear incompetents like Tom Delay and W. They have to have wondered, "Where are the indisputable heroes of yesteryear...? Whither Ike?" And they have to have been looking at the (relatively) decent democratic side with some degree of despair, because what can you do with, for instance, Carter? He's indisputably a decent guy. He wore a sweater one time, like Mister Rogers, and that was insufficiently masculine? Come on. Billy Beer? Only so far you can take that stuff. Carter is a smart, good man who wanted the best for the country and the world and who did good unflaggingly (except of course for his anathema fiscal policies). So that's why they built Reagan up into the second coming and why the Clinton blue-dress idiocy had to have been like Christmas for them. For too long the essentially decent people of the republican party have been betrayed by its growing sociopath wing. They don't want to be the ones in league with criminal meanies, who would? But WTF, are they going to switch sides and vote for the tax-n-spend democrats, hell naw. So the only way to save face is to try to vilify the other side. The trouble is, Obama just isn't an obvious monster. If he's a monster, he's supersubtle about it and has so far revealed no clear traces of monstrosity. So we get the birther movement. Ditto H. Clinton. So they trump up Benghazi into a thing. Meanwhile, Trump, obvious monster, gibbers and dances in their faces. I miss my grandfather, but I am so glad he's not seeing this shit.
posted by Don Pepino at 7:05 AM on August 3, 2016 [14 favorites]

So guys, welcome to Dead Zone. Enjoy the stay.
posted by Yowser at 7:08 AM on August 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

Does anyone know what it is Trump wants to nuke? Apart from Denmark.
posted by mumimor at 7:12 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Well, he's mentioned ISIS and Europe. But I'm guessing any state that doesn't go red better be nervous.
posted by chris24 at 7:14 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Harrisburg, apparently.
posted by zombieflanders at 7:14 AM on August 3, 2016 [9 favorites]

TPM: That Ship Has Sailed: Is there really anything we've seen about Donald Trump in the last week that wasn't entirely obvious two weeks ago? Of course not. This is craven and ridiculous any way you slice it. Sometimes the train is rumbling down the tracks at 120 miles an hour. You have no brakes. You have no conductor. You have no way to change physics. Sometimes that's just how it is.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:15 AM on August 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

Does anyone know what it is Trump wants to nuke? Apart from Denmark.

I would guess Eastern Syria/Western Iraq for starters, and North Korea would probably want to stay vigilant, too.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 7:16 AM on August 3, 2016

For those not familiar with the Martin Sheeny parts of Dead Zone, here's a sample:

1. Nuclear war for fun. Very Trumpian
2. Baby as human shield. Not quite as Trumpian.
posted by Yowser at 7:17 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

The thing though is that the level of insecurity in the machines means we just don't know, can't know, will never know, whether or not they were manipulated in 2004 (Kerry seemed think they were himself but decided not to make a fuss) or will be manipulated now.

That was my point in objecting to a connection being made between Trump's self-serving pre-emptive strike on the public's faith in electoral integrity and past attempts to call attention to actual problems.

But I know HRC has studied the campaigns of LBJ and knows that it's your own damn fault if you don't steal the election better than the other guy.

I don't really know what you're trying to say here. Is this a statement about the primary process, or a suggestion that she's planning on stealing the election in November?
posted by tonycpsu at 7:18 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

So the "secret plan" he alluded to having with regard to ISIS is probably just "nukes," then.

And in his mind, it'll be okay to cause millions of civilian casualties, because the majority of those civilians will be Muslims, and to him, all Muslims are potential terrorists.

Christ almighty.
posted by palmcorder_yajna at 7:20 AM on August 3, 2016 [17 favorites]

I've been under the impression that Scarborough and the Morning Joe crew have been generally anti-Trump (to Trump's visible annoyance)....is that wrong?

Morning Joe's Trump awakening is extremely recent. They were one of the first to call Trump as having a chance to win, and then were happy to have him on endlessly for months to make it happen and take advantage of the ratings. Only after it became clear that Trump was going to win did Scarborough seem to take a bit of a step back and say, "oh, maybe this was a bad idea for the country". Way, way too late.
posted by T.D. Strange at 7:21 AM on August 3, 2016 [9 favorites]

But I know HRC has studied the campaigns of LBJ and knows that it's your own damn fault if you don't steal the election better than the other guy.

You don't know this at all and there's no evidence that she's tried to steal an election or is trying to steal this one. Why do you say crap like this?
posted by octothorpe at 7:26 AM on August 3, 2016 [60 favorites]

the "one must not doubt the integrity of the election system" line is not particularly well-considered, I don't think. Electoral politics isn't a friendly game or a debate society or whatever. It's a competition over seats of genuine power.

Whether or not it's prudent for Trump to doubt the results of elections — and I'm certain that in any given situation, trump can be trusted to do the least prudent thing — it's at best irrational American exceptionalism to claim that our vote counting mechanisms are so clean that no one can doubt them.

Secure election methods aren't made through trust. They're made through consistent and thoughtful mistrust, under the assumption that any subvertible process will in fact be subverted by someone eventually.

Voting machines manufactured by private companies, running on secret source code, are in fact a remarkably bad idea, even when the owners of those companies aren't themselves partisans. I see no reason to pretend that that bad idea is actually a good idea.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 7:32 AM on August 3, 2016 [9 favorites]

This guy I hated in high school for being a smug Republican asshole is running for office* as a smug Republican asshole in my parents' town. It is my deeply held wish that being on a ballot with Trump hurts his chances.

Update: This guy lost his primary last night by like 600 votes! The winner got 1500 to give an idea of the scale. On one hand I'm glad he lost so I won't have to see his advertising when I visit my parents; on the other hand, I wish he had lost in a landslide to a Democratic woman.

As a result of the spite-attention I gave this election, I have chipped in $10 to the woman who won the Democratic primary in their district.
posted by palindromic at 7:34 AM on August 3, 2016 [55 favorites]

From that Phillip Rucker interview in the Post: TRUMP: I think I’m going to to do great in Ohio, we’re going to do great in Pennsylvania, I think I’m going to do great in Florida and I think I’m going to do great in states that some people aren’t even thinking about. Because I’m different than Republican candidates, than other Republican candidates. I’ve got states that we can win that other Republican candidates wouldn’t even stop over for dinner.

RUCKER: Like what? Like Maine?

TRUMP: Well, I’d rather not say. Because why should I highlight it? But we have some states that I think are very competitive in that no Republican has ever been competitive in. But I’d rather not say what they are. Don’t you agree with that? I’d rather not say what they are.

RUCKER: So you’ll win with the secret state strategy?

TRUMP: No, not the secret state, no. But I have states, and you know this, I have states that no other Republican would do well in that I think I’m gonna win. But I don’t want to name those states.
My inner West Wing fan was hoping he'd break out a secret plan to fight inflation. BARTLET: I’m tired, I’m cranky, and my wife’s in Argentina. Let’s get this over with.... What?
LEO: Mr. President, we experienced a few public relations... what’s the word... ?
TOBY: Catastrophes?
LEO: ...incidents in the few hours you were away last night.

posted by zarq at 7:36 AM on August 3, 2016 [8 favorites]

The WaPo interview is now also annotated
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:38 AM on August 3, 2016 [8 favorites]

You don't know this at all and there's no evidence that she's tried to steal an election or is trying to steal this one. Why do you say crap like this?

Heh it was a joke about LBJ, who lost his first Senate election because he reported his fake votes too soon, soon enough for the opponent to change his vote totals to beat Johnson's. It's a lesson he never forgot. The point was, I'm not worried about Trump stealing the election through voter machine manipulation because I trust HRC's campaign to be aware of the risk of voter machine manipulation in key districts, and to have plans to deal with it. It was a point about competence, actually.
posted by dis_integration at 7:39 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Is the election going to come down to:

Do you want -

A) To die screaming in a broiling cauldron of global nuclear armageddon this January, or
B) Better healthcare?
posted by Devonian at 7:39 AM on August 3, 2016 [78 favorites]

A) To die screaming in a broiling cauldron of global nuclear armageddon this January, or
B) Better healthcare?

To be fair, the cauldron is gold-plated.
posted by Celsius1414 at 7:40 AM on August 3, 2016 [41 favorites]

A) To die screaming in a broiling cauldron of global nuclear armageddon this January, or
B) Better healthcare?

I mean it's so obvious, choosing A eliminates the need for B altogether.
posted by wabbittwax at 7:44 AM on August 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm sure he thinks he has New York and California locked up.
posted by wabbittwax at 7:44 AM on August 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

Baby as human shield. Not quite as Trumpian.

I don't know, the day is young.
posted by penduluum at 7:45 AM on August 3, 2016 [12 favorites]

Secure election methods aren't made through trust. They're made through consistent and thoughtful mistrust

I disagree. I think the way that individual voting practices are made secure is by constant, careful analysis, but I think widespread distrust has the opposite effect. If the voting process is widely trusted and then subverted, it's a scandal and things get fixed. If the voting process is perceived as already broken, then the public will greet any news of rigging with a shrug. "Tell us something we don't already know." Distrust of voting is how democracies die.
posted by phooky at 7:47 AM on August 3, 2016 [16 favorites]

NYTimes: Paul Ryan’s Long Hot Summer: Every time Ryan talks about patriotism, every time he talks about conservative ideals, the orange face of Trump seems to rise moon-like behind his shoulder — a reminder that this patriot and idealist is supporting, for the highest office in the republic and the most powerful position in the world, a man that he obviously knows (including, one assumes, from firsthand exposure) to be dangerous, unstable, unprincipled and unfit.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:47 AM on August 3, 2016 [19 favorites]

I've taken to calling him Donnie/ Donny, with no care for consistency in spelling.

Shut the fuck up, Donnie! You're out of your element!
posted by J.K. Seazer at 7:48 AM on August 3, 2016 [14 favorites]

Am I right in thinking that in the constitutional division of powers, the right to declare war is purely presidential? So that if elected, Trump would have the world's largest war machine at his disposal, and only a military coup could prevent him doing exactly what he wished?

I'd like to be clear on this.
posted by Devonian at 7:48 AM on August 3, 2016

So the "secret plan" he alluded to having with regard to ISIS is probably just "nukes," then.

It also explains how you could convince Mexico to pay for a 2,000-mile wall.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 7:48 AM on August 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

Congress declares war. Nobody really declares war anymore though.
posted by wabbittwax at 7:50 AM on August 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

Am I right in thinking that in the constitutional division of powers, the right to declare war is purely presidential?

No, it's purely Congressional.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:51 AM on August 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

I can reveal that the Secret States are Kanawha, Nevahoma, Calivania, Muskogee, Maralagorida, and South Carolina.

posted by murphy slaw at 7:51 AM on August 3, 2016 [8 favorites]

Sounds like a good idea, paper chromatographologist, except mightn't it mess with Texas too much?
posted by Don Pepino at 7:53 AM on August 3, 2016

Declaring war is a Congressional power. But ordering military action is entirely Executive, including nuclear launches.
posted by yesster at 7:53 AM on August 3, 2016 [11 favorites]

No, it's purely Congressional.

On paper. In practice, Congress has abrogated its responsibility and punted the decision to the executive branch with various authorizations that give them plausible deniability if things go tits-up.
posted by tonycpsu at 7:53 AM on August 3, 2016 [17 favorites]

So President Trump couldn't take umbrage at, say, the Queen refusing to acknowlege him as Emperor of the Western Spiral Arm and send the USS Nukey McNukeface up the Thames to turn Buck House into a glass car park?

Oh, he could?

Mmm.
posted by Devonian at 7:54 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Jesus Christ, he actually would drop a few nukes so he could threaten Mexico and China, wouldn't he?
posted by argybarg at 7:55 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

Am I right in thinking that in the constitutional division of powers, the right to declare war is purely presidential?

Exactly the opposite; the Constitution specifically grants the power to Congress. Practically speaking, though, the President as Commander-in-Chief has day-to-day control of the armed forces, and can seek Congressional approval (shortly) after the fact if necessary.

You do, usually, see some sort of authorization for military force before the bombs start dropping. Usually.
posted by Huffy Puffy at 7:55 AM on August 3, 2016

yes, given our track record since vietnam, just because we lob a couple hundred megatons of nuclear weapons at a country doesn't mean we're at war with them
posted by murphy slaw at 7:55 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

No, not the secret state, no

It definitely sounds like Trump thinks the interviewer knows about a secret state & doesn't want to let on that he's not in on the secret.
posted by yarrow at 7:56 AM on August 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

Here's what's publicly known about the process by which the president can launch nuclear weapons.

Essentially, the president can do so at will as long as the Secretary of Defense signs off.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 7:56 AM on August 3, 2016

Judge Curiel: Trump Must Face Trial for Racketeering in Trump University Suit. Popcorn is poppin'.
posted by dis_integration at 7:57 AM on August 3, 2016 [15 favorites]

He probably thinks there's a secret state where all the John Galts are living.
posted by diogenes at 7:58 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

this thread summarized in gif form
posted by entropicamericana at 7:59 AM on August 3, 2016 [11 favorites]

Funny thing is, the John Galts would HATE Trump. He's Peter Keating with an extra helping of asshole. He'd never get into their secret club.
posted by stolyarova at 8:01 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

I guess I didn't realize Marco Rubio had gone into full on support Trump mode. Just a few minutes ago Rubio got asked about Nuclear & Trump, but wouldn't answer.
posted by cashman at 8:01 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yeah, remember that Iraq War / AUMF vote that Hillary gets pilloried for more than any of the other majority of Senators who voted for it? That's Congress giving the President the ability to launch nukes.
posted by Roommate at 8:01 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

the "one must not doubt the integrity of the election system" line is not particularly well-considered, I don't think.

We should work to ensure that our elections are fair. But that is not the same thing as casting doubt on the legitimacy of the whole system. Like yes, there are problems. There are precincts where votes are not necessarily counted fairly, where access to the polls is unfairly restricted. We should indeed have paper trails and take the time for re-counts when necessary. Heck, probably someone somewhere has actually committed the kind of voter fraud that Republicans claim to be so worried about, at some point. Attempts to cheat can and have been made by both major parties historically (I lived in Illinois for six years under Blagojevich. "Democrat" does not mean "uncorruptible" to me.) Meanwhile minor parties do stuff like trying to get party affiliation labels removed from the ballot so people will vote for them by accident.

And probably more common than deliberate attempts at tampering are sloppiness and carelessness. Bad ballot design (I remember butterfly ballots and hanging chads) and long lines and whatever.

But all of these are sources of "noise" on the signal that the voters are sending. They introduce some fuzziness, some margin of error on our attempts to measure the will of the people. In a close election, like 2000, this fuzziness can be a real issue. Every poll has a margin of error, in other words, even the actual election polls. We can and should do what we can to reduce that fuzziness. It's a good thing these days that we have pre-election polls and exit polls by independent organizations as a check, and the courts are fulfilling their roles as referees making sure the rules are fair, and we can have election observers from all relevant parties present...

But to say that the signal itself is not just noisy, but false? That the will of the voters is not just a little uncertain, but not being expressed at all? That crosses the line, to me. To cast doubt on all those volunteer election workers in all those different states, all those elected officials charged with the operation of our democracy? If they can't be trusted, then how can our system of government operate at all?

If people start believing that elections are, not just imperfect, but meaningless, then we can't have a democracy anymore. No government will have legitimacy except that which can be imposed by force. Democracy cannot operate without a basic assumption of good faith and willingness to accept the results even if you lose. And that's so hard to restore once it is lost. Look at the story about John Kerry upthread. Trying to explain to people in Afghanistan that they need to trust each other, because otherwise they will always be governed by warlords.

That Trump is trying to undermine that assumption of good will which is the foundation of our democracy is chilling. God help us if someone who is not a clown with a stupid hairstyle and a habit of putting his foot in his mouth every time he opens it starts saying this stuff. Our society feels more fragile than ever to me, these days.
posted by OnceUponATime at 8:01 AM on August 3, 2016 [35 favorites]

I am actually a huge fan of literal popcorn and most of the time when I say that I am popping or eating popcorn on these threads, I really, truly am. With nutritional yeast and smoked salt. I have the best, most luxurious, classiest popcorn.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:02 AM on August 3, 2016 [24 favorites]

Essentially, the president can do so at will as long as the Secretary of Defense signs off.

Oh, well, that's sure to be someone good.
posted by Artw at 8:03 AM on August 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

Can't make this up. Reince Priebus, Newt, and Rudy are preparing an intervention with Trump
posted by zombieflanders at 8:04 AM on August 3, 2016 [19 favorites]

I've taken to calling him Donnie/ Donny, with no care for consistency in spelling.

Shut the fuck up, Donnie! You're out of your element!

Except Trump is a lot more like Walter Sobchak, but for actual military service.

Jesus Christ, he actually would drop a few nukes so he could threaten Mexico and China, wouldn't he?

His vapid thoughts and remarks suggest that the real danger, if he were elected, would be an inclination towards a first strike in some kind of great power standoff of his own provocation. (Maybe once he discovers Putin doesn't actually want to be his best bro.)

His ideas about global security and defense seem to be cribbed from 80s technothrillers. And not Tom Clancy or even Dale Brown -- more like Ralph Peters and John Ringo, etc.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:04 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Funny thing is, the John Galts would HATE Trump. He's Peter Keating with an extra helping of asshole. He'd never get into their secret club.

I've mentioned before that my parents are Objectivists. I've probably never mentioned that they're not just Objectivists, my dad is a career academic who is or has been on the board of major Objectivist societies and research centers. He's been published in Reason magazine. He's like a class 5 four star Objectivist. My parents HATE Donald Trump. Like, "moving back to Canada, no really, we're completely serious" levels of despisement. It's the one thing we completely agree on, politically.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:05 AM on August 3, 2016 [19 favorites]

They invited fucking Rudy Giuliani to that meeting? He may not be a Trump-level moron, but he's just as much of a demagogue. If he's what passes for mainstream Republicans, they must not be pining for the bygone days of honorable opposition as much as they claim to be.
posted by penduluum at 8:08 AM on August 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

Hey, I know somebody in this thread mentioned being sad they'd missed out on the H-> pattern pins - here's cause for happiness! You can get a complete set of all the Hillary pins for $100 now.
posted by stolyarova at 8:10 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

His ideas about global security and defense seem to be cribbed from 80s technothrillers. And not Tom Clancy or even Dale Brown -- more like Ralph Peters and John Ringo, etc.

Actually, now that I'm thinking about it, I'm mildly surprised Trump 2016 doesn't have a new campaign bio co-written with Vox Day and released through Baen.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:11 AM on August 3, 2016 [8 favorites]

Can't make this up. Reince Priebus, Newt, and Rudy are preparing an intervention with Trump

I think it's already happening. Kellyanne Conway, a senior trump advisor, was just on CNN trying to convince people Donald wants to talk about issues now. Saying he's going to talk about issues soon, and give more details next week.

I mean of course it's just a bunch of nonsense and the things she's saying are typical spin stuff, and sure she looks like she's dead inside, but careful what you wish for, regarding the "pivot". Because it'll be that typical thing where you have people at a job doing incredible things and barely getting noticed, but then the degenerate guy who loafs off and says dumb things and can never be counted on to get his work done, finally does one freaking thing and everybody falls all over themselves praising him.

I just don't feel good about the upcoming months.
posted by cashman at 8:12 AM on August 3, 2016 [13 favorites]

Judge Curiel: Trump Must Face Trial for Racketeering in Trump University Suit.

So the trial will happen after the election. Even if he becomes President. SCOTUS confirmed with Clinton v. Jones that a sitting President has no immunity from civil law litigation for anything they (allegedly) did before they became President. This is a civil RICO claim, correct?
posted by zarq at 8:13 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

They invited fucking Rudy Giuliani to that meeting?

Did they even watch Rudy's speech at the RNC. This is the guy you're bringing in to talk someone down?
posted by diogenes at 8:14 AM on August 3, 2016 [12 favorites]

He may not be a Trump-level moron, but he's just as much of a demagogue. If he's what passes for mainstream Republicans, they must not be pining for the bygone days of honorable opposition as much as they claim to be.

Giuliani is not any kind of moron, and he likes to straddle the establishment/tea party divide. Thus far, he hasn't been compelled to choose. Possibly the benefit of being an emeritus local pol.

His message will probably be don't ruin 'business as usual,' from one NYC insider to another.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:14 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

(I should note that aside from their abhorrent socio-political philosophy, my parents are actually truly lovely, generous, delightful people who have helped me and many other people. Most folks don't believe me on this because they've only ever met Internet Tough Guy Objectivists, but academic philosophical Objectivists are often quite nice, soft-spoken, interesting people with an unfortunate attraction to Aristotelianism.)
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:14 AM on August 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

From the "intervention" article: Sources in the candidate's orbit tell NBC News Trump is aware of the dissatisfaction within the party. But while some labeled the state of affairs "Crazytown" and "worse than ever," they also described a sense of powerlessness, bemoaning the fact there's "nothing that we can do, that anybody can do right now."

"Crazytown."
You know, I'm not sure what to hope for anymore. If the GOP somehow manages to depose Trump before the general, I'm pretty sure that HRC would have a hard time defeating a generic Republican, someone who can wear a suit and smile and assume decency while planning policies that destroy the lives of women and minorities and families. The crossover votes would stop, would reverse. But I can't bring myself to want Trump to be the candidate. It's a shame upon us all.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:14 AM on August 3, 2016 [13 favorites]

Trump won't be able to stay "on message." He has zero impulse control.
posted by stolyarova at 8:14 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

I'm holding out for Chuck Tingle as author of the 2018 manifesto. .

On mature reflection, and if it's OK with you guys, could you please not elect Trump president?

I think it would be a bad thing to do.

Thanks!
posted by Devonian at 8:15 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

cjelli:

You're outlining the ways a rational but highly militaristic person might become President and wind up triggering nuclear war.

I don't think Trump is rational. He has been obsessed for years with the notion that China and Mexico are raping us, "stealing our guts," humiliating us.

I think he would drop a preemptive bomb somewhere Middle East-ish, then let China and Mexico know it was time to wise up or they're next.
posted by argybarg at 8:15 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

There was some talk upthread about how Trump would react to the Olympics. I sort of chuckled at the time (ie, 2 days ago), because of course he understands the Olympics are Big Deal. But given how he reacted to the DNC badmouthing him, taking the headlines away in a totally predictable fashion - because they were the big game in town and also his political opponents - how will he cope with two weeks of internationalism and sports overtaking his coverage?

I'm wondering which medalists or athletic inspirational-sob stories or national delegations he'll be disparaging. Will Bob Costas say some vaguely anti-Trump shit and then we have to hear about NBC's bias? Will he defend the Russian sports doping regime? How many athletes will make at least vaguely anti-Trump comments? Will he respond to all of them?
posted by palindromic at 8:16 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

The crossover votes would stop, would reverse. But I can't bring myself to want Trump to be the candidate. It's a shame upon us all.

On the other hand, Trumps die-hards would either stay home or write him in. I'm not sure how the math works here about who would cancel who out, but it's something to keep in mind.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:17 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

the general election campaign has really only been going for five days including a weekend?
how can this be
posted by murphy slaw at 8:17 AM on August 3, 2016 [20 favorites]

regarding a possible intervention-- The great thing about someone who's temperamentally unfit to be President is that no matter how many competent Jared Kushner-penned speeches they force him to make, he'll still find a way to prove himself temperamentally unfit.

And if they replace him-- don't his supporters stay home and/or riot?
posted by acidic at 8:17 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

From the NBC news article about the intervention:

"The group of GOP heavyweights hopes to enlist the help of Trump's children - who compromise much of his innermost circle of influential advisers - to aid in the attempt to rescue his candidacy."

I'm pretty sure they meant "comprise" but maybe not....?
posted by danapiper at 8:18 AM on August 3, 2016 [15 favorites]

i would say his innermost circle is extremely compromised
posted by murphy slaw at 8:19 AM on August 3, 2016 [17 favorites]

>
If people start believing that elections are, not just imperfect, but meaningless, then we can't have a democracy anymore. No government will have legitimacy except that which can be imposed by force. Democracy cannot operate without a basic assumption of good faith and willingness to accept the results even if you lose.

The distinction you're eliding here is between trusting the results (thinking that the end result of electoral processes accurately reflects the will of the electorate) and accepting the results.

The legitimacy of an elected government rest less on people genuinely believing that the government reflects their preferences, and more on a collective decision to follow the results of a particular process.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 8:20 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

academic philosophical Objectivists are often quite nice, soft-spoken, interesting people with an unfortunate attraction to Aristotelianism

And an interesting gloss on 'objectivity' that turns out to be 'pure moral relativism in the defense of unrestrained capitalism.'

But, hey, at least they won't piss on your carpet.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:20 AM on August 3, 2016

Jesus, the cold war nightmare was the US versus the Soviet Union with nuclear weapons, now we have the possibility of it being a tag team match with an unhinged US and Russia working together??? I can't even...
posted by gusottertrout at 8:20 AM on August 3, 2016

Donald Trump could go nuclear in seconds, and there's no mechanism to stop him.

All nuclear launches are countersigned by the Secretary of Defense under the two man rule as a last ditch stopgap. Trump's only options are to not use nukes or fire the Secretary of Defense. At that point unless he had a good reason the cabinet would most likely write to the Congress saying the president has gone batshit insane and should be removed.
posted by Talez at 8:20 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Guys, guys. Reince Priebus is on it! Case closed! Mark it, Dude.
posted by petebest at 8:21 AM on August 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

Donald Trump could go nuclear in seconds, and there's no mechanism to stop him.

We still have Denzel Washington.
posted by Etrigan at 8:22 AM on August 3, 2016 [8 favorites]

idk maybe he can say a magic incantation and put Trump inside his personal puzzle box
posted by stolyarova at 8:22 AM on August 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

I don't know, I think that the Republican party has lost so much credibility that even if they got a Kasich to replace him or run alongside him somehow, it would be difficult to walk back from this. "Oopsie, so our first choice for president turned out to be narcissist who harbors fantasies about launching nuclear weapons, and even when it was clear that he was a truly monstrous, evil person, our party leaders were still loathe to repudiate him or withdraw their endorsement. Nevermind all that, vote for me!"

Besides, even if the RNC got rid of him in time to file paperwork on someone else, wouldn't Trump just run as an independent? The right is hopelessly split.
posted by gatorae at 8:23 AM on August 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

You guys, I'm going to be in an arbitration most of today and thus unable to check in on this thread every hour or two, and I shudder to think what total insanity I'm going to come back to. I mean, yesterday was a...wild ride, to say the least. What fresh hell awaits us today?
posted by yasaman at 8:24 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

All nuclear launches are countersigned by the Secretary of Defense under the two man rule as a last ditch stopgap.

So it would depend on the likes of Michael Flynn, or Allen West, or Ralph Peters or whatever nutjob jingoistic warmonger he gets? Great.

Slightly kidding on the last two but who knows.
posted by chris24 at 8:25 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

The idea is in its early stages, and there's no guarantee that Trump's team would entertain a conversation requiring such comprehensive changes for a candidate who has resisted calls to moderate his tone or reel in his most outlandish political positions.

So is this news article the Republicans' trial balloon to see if they can even get a conversation started? Because dang if that's not how this paragraph reads to me.
posted by winna at 8:26 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

yasaman, I think his first rally isn't until 3pm, so you're good for a bit.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:26 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Instead of trying to rebrand him as "Drumpf," I've taken to calling him Donnie/ Donny, with no care for consistency in spelling. It seems appropriate.

"So you have no frame of reference here, Donny. You're like a child who wanders into the middle of a movie and wants to know..."
posted by entropicamericana at 8:27 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Cjelli:

If Trump is elected, we have to hope he triggers a constitutional crisis, leading to the Joint Chiefs of Staff openly disobeying him. Otherwise, you're right, he could sneak us into engagement with an "enemy" that triggers purely defensive responses of the sort the military understands reflexively.
posted by argybarg at 8:28 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Worse than that to my mind is that there are left-wing people who think voting for Trump and voting for Clinton are equally bad and don't care that not voting for Clinton is increasing the chance that Trump will become President.

Been stalking my Facebook friends, I see.
posted by infinitywaltz at 8:30 AM on August 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

This morning, I can't help but continue to dwell on the question of why it seems so impossible to get through to the people following Trump (despite whatever ludicrous act he engages in next). A factor that keeps coming to mind:

The GOP has spent decades using increasingly unhinged hyperbole to describe their opponents, to the point where it seems nowadays that no amount of demonization is considered a bridge too far. Consequently, when an actual demon arises in their midst, there are no words left of power that can be used to fight it. Anything that can be said against such a threat has been robbed of all meaning. When every politician you don't like is described as a monster, there's no room left to distinguish the actual monsters.
posted by tocts at 8:32 AM on August 3, 2016 [36 favorites]

But his ordering it, and a strike happening, has to pass through the military

I would suggest reading Command and Control, also remembering that the Air Force is top-to-toe staffed by evangelicals, before finding that too reassuring.
posted by Artw at 8:32 AM on August 3, 2016 [11 favorites]

Ralph Peters or whatever nutjob jingoistic warmonger he gets? Great.

Slightly kidding on the last two but who knows.

The War in 2020: shit novel or SIOP-17?

I kid, but ugh. It's close enough to the Trumpsters' paranoid fantasies.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:32 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Oh, I know some of my friends will see the reports of Trump's nuclear obsession as a false flag effort on the media's part to brainwash us into supporting the two-party oligarchy. And they (my friends) will not be brainwashed!

It's pure, infantile narcissism. But I do think it's among a vanishingly small number of voters who weren't reliable voters to begin with.
posted by argybarg at 8:33 AM on August 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

Yesterday, ChurchHatesTucker linked to a quotation from Bret Stephens' Wall Street Journal editorial, calling on Republicans to repudiate Trump before it's too late.

I wanted to give you all another chance to see what he actually said, drop the sarcasm and schadenfreude for just a minute, and consider the implications of the WSJ editorial page advising elected Republican office holders to withhold / withdraw their endorsements of their party's presidential candidate.

Here are some extended excerpts:

There’s an old saying that in politics there are no permanent victories — and no permanent defeats. . . . [this] should comfort conservatives unnerved by the prospect of a Hillary Clinton presidency. . . .

But to say there are no permanent victories or defeats in politics doesn’t mean there is no permanent dishonor. Huey Long, Charles Coughlin, Alger Hiss, Joe McCarthy and Bull Connor are the foul names of America’s 20th century, and always will be. And those who supported and excused them will always be tainted by association.

This is where Republicans now find themselves with their presidential nominee.

Of all of Donald Trump’s vile irruptions . . . his casual smear of Ghazala Khan is perhaps the vilest. . . . What makes Mr. Trump’s remarks so foul is their undisguised sadism. He . . . painted a target on her. He treated her silence as evidence that she was either a dolt or a stooge. . . .

In this comment there was the full unmasking of Mr. Trump . . . . He has, as Humayun’s father Khizr put it, a “black soul.” His problem isn’t a lack of normal propriety but the absence of basic human decency. He is morally unfit for any office, high or low. . . .

The central issue in this election isn’t Mr. Trump’s ideas, such as they are. It’s his character, such as it is. The sin, in this case, is the sinner.

It will not do for Republicans to say they denounce Mr. Trump’s personal slanders; his nativism and protectionism and isolationism; his mendacity and meanness and crassness; his disdain for constitutional protections — and still campaign for his election. . . . To lie down with him is to wake up with him. It’s as simple as that. . . .

Mrs. Clinton . . . may be a corner-cutter and a liar, and she’ll almost surely appoint liberals to the Supreme Court. But at least she’s not a sociopath.

Come January, Mrs. Clinton will likely be president. Whether there is a GOP that can still lay a claim to moral and political respectability is another question. Mr. Ryan and other Go-Along Republicans should treat the Khan episode as their last best hope to preserve [their] political reputations.
-- Bret Stephens, Wall Street Journal, Aug. 1, 2016

posted by Herodios at 8:33 AM on August 3, 2016 [69 favorites]

But at least she’s not a sociopath.

Fuck, put it on a shirt.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:35 AM on August 3, 2016 [29 favorites]

Papoon for President: "Not Insane!"

posted by Herodios at 8:37 AM on August 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

consider the implications of the WSJ editorial page advising elected Republican office holders to withhold / withdraw their endorsements of their party's presidential candidate.

Yeah, that does seem like kind of a big deal.

I don't know anything about Bret Stephens though. Is he in the David Brooks mold?
posted by diogenes at 8:40 AM on August 3, 2016

Josh Marshall: It Doesn't Get Easier

In the quite unlikely case of Trump leaving the race, who would replace him? [...]

So who [would want] to replace Trump? Cruz certainly, someone who is probably too conservative for a national electorate and wildly reviled as someone actually less likable than Trump. Pence? A right-wing non-entity who his own state's Republican party didn't want anymore. Ryan? Maybe but he's probably too smart to put himself through that. Jeb or Rubio, who voters mammothly rejected?

The real story is that it reopens all the structural divisions in the GOP itself, precisely what the primary process was unable to grapple with successfully. Only now it gets hashed out not with any input from voters but literally behind closed doors by literally a group of Republican insiders and elites. And all this with 90 days before election day? That should go amazingly well.

No mention of Kasich, though, who has largely managed to stay away from the Trumpstench and placed 3rd in the primaries.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 8:42 AM on August 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

gatorae: I don't know, I think that the Republican party has lost so much credibility that even if they got a Kasich to replace him or run alongside him somehow, it would be difficult to walk back from this. "Oopsie, so our first choice for president turned out to be narcissist who harbors fantasies about launching nuclear weapons, and even when it was clear that he was a truly monstrous, evil person, our party leaders were still loathe to repudiate him or withdraw their endorsement. Nevermind all that, vote for me!"

All they have to say is that they felt their hands were tied because he was the elected nominee. But now, for the greater good, they cannot in good conscience allow him to become President because he does not represent their values and may be a danger to the country. If he would like to run as a third party candidate he's welcome to do so, but not as a Republican. And if they lose the election as a result of this sacrifice, so be it. Protecting the nation is more important.

Many Republicans would respect them for taking a principled stand. So would a lot of independents and Democrats.

It will never, ever happen.

But clearly, it should.
posted by zarq at 8:43 AM on August 3, 2016 [16 favorites]

But I do think it's among a vanishingly small number of voters who weren't reliable voters to begin with.

Brainwashing talk might be limited to a small number of voters, but rank distrust of all levels of government certainly seems to me to be a much more popular refrain from all corners of the political spectrum, even among those who allege themselves as wanting regulations or actions effected against industry, the police, or any number of other agents in our society. How they can balance the feeling of intense distrust with wanting action is unknown to me, but it is yet another dangerous element in our system stoked from all sides without caution.
posted by gusottertrout at 8:44 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

I work for a large organization that conducts social science research, much of it for federal agencies. Our president just said on a company wide call that we'll probably cease to exist in the event of a Trump presidency. jobs!
posted by theodolite at 8:44 AM on August 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

Another amuse-bouche of hearsay.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:45 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

Ignoring Advice, Donald Trump Presses Attack on Khan Family and G.O.P. Leaders
posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:45 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

The WSJ web page containing the Bret Stephens editorial also has a link to a video of WSJ's editor of the editorial pages, Paul Gigot, in an internal 'interview' saying more or less the same things.

posted by Herodios at 8:45 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Another amuse-bouche of hearsay.

I'm dying to know what that donor that was on This American Life a few weeks ago is thinking right about now.
posted by soren_lorensen at 8:48 AM on August 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

All nuclear launches are countersigned by the Secretary of Defense under the two man rule as a last ditch stopgap.

I looked into this a week or so ago, it's all a blur and I can't even remember when, but there isn't a meaningful check and balance here because the definition of a legal nuclear launch order is one which comes from someone who is verifably the president and doesn't include anything related to the morality or propriety of the launch.

To quote myself from another thread: "For some of the President's most awesome powers the veneer of checks and balances is thin indeed:

"Only the President can direct the use of nuclear weapons, including the Single Integrated Operational Plan (SIOP). While the President does have unilateral authority as commander-in-chief to order that nuclear weapons be used for any reason at any time, the actual procedures and technical systems in place for authorizing the execution of a launch order requires a secondary confirmation under a two-man rule, as the President's order is subject to secondary confirmation by the Secretary of Defense. If the Secretary of Defense does not concur, then the President may in his sole discretion fire the Secretary. The Deputy Secretary of Defense would then assume the office of Acting Secretary of Defense in accordance with the Secretarial order of succession. An Acting Secretary would, likely, face the same test: to countersign the Presidential order or be relieved from office. This potential cycling of Acting Secretaries of Defense could be reminiscent of the so-called "Saturday Night Massacre" at the Department of Justice in 1973.""
posted by feloniousmonk at 8:50 AM on August 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

Surprising nobody, I'm sure, Buzzfeed has dug up hard evidence that trump campaign is knowingly and deliberately overbooking small venues and then blaming local officials for working in coordination with Hillary to suppress them.
posted by codacorolla at 8:51 AM on August 3, 2016 [20 favorites]

Being an informer for McCarthy's witch hunts didn't seem to hurt Reagan. No acknowledgment of the Southern Strategy and what it has wrought. And somehow a Democrat has taken the heat for a bullshit war that the GOP enabled and prosecuted in a remarkable display of party cohesion.

I don't have much faith in the GOP's capacity for shame.
posted by schadenfrau at 8:51 AM on August 3, 2016 [14 favorites]

But now, for the greater good, they cannot in good conscience allow him to become President because he does not represent their values and may be a danger to the country. If he would like to run as a third party candidate he's welcome to do so, but not as a Republican.

Except they have no power to do this. Unless he steps down, they are stuck with him.
posted by chris24 at 8:52 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

rank distrust of all levels of government certainly seems to me to be a much more popular refrain from all corners of the political spectrum

I know this. I've always detested the stock "politicians are liars" jokes, because it just signals an utter, lazy declining of the responsibilities we all have in the democratic process. "I don't get involved in politics, they're all a bunch of liars," people say — and it just signals to me "I'd rather not consider issues, and congratulate myself for it in the process."

And, of course, complete neglect and contempt on the part of citizens gets you total garbage governance.
posted by argybarg at 8:52 AM on August 3, 2016 [22 favorites]

Okay I really have to go but one more link that made me cackle

MANAFORT: soon this plan will come to fruition....
TRUMP: I am going to call a child in a wheelchair "homo junior"
posted by Countess Elena at 8:52 AM on August 3, 2016 [22 favorites]

Reince Priebus, Newt, and Rudy are preparing an intervention with Trump

"Mr. Trump, your ego problem has negatively impacted my life in the following ways..."
posted by PlusDistance at 8:52 AM on August 3, 2016 [10 favorites]

And yet there's no way to replace him at the top of the ticket that isn't a fundamental repudiation of the primary process and, by extension, of the electorate choosing their own candidates. It's the Brexit problem -- once you expose yourself to referendum, you can't back away from the result of that referendum without pulling down the scaffolding of the whole democratic system itself. To have a party say, "look, we know that you our voters said to do something, but we're choosing not to listen to you, we think we know better than you what's in your best interest" ... I mean, it's a delicate thing. A lot of things that were impossible to imagine become suddenly possible. I actually think that state of affairs might be more likely to lead to the nightmare scenario of rioting in the streets and whatnot than a Trump loss would.
posted by penduluum at 8:54 AM on August 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

Well, good timing on this ad from Priorities USA that's about to run in swing states.

DANGER
posted by chris24 at 8:56 AM on August 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

Check out that Nowcast swoop: Boom!
posted by Sublimity at 8:56 AM on August 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm dying to know what that donor that was on This American Life a few weeks ago is thinking right about now.

I'm sure he's still thinking about what a winner he is and how all Democrats are lazy slobs.
posted by diogenes at 8:56 AM on August 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

My prediction for today: Trump will double down on his fondness for nuclear weapons, probably with praise of Putin in the process ("Look at Russia. They don't rule these things out. They're stronger than we are.") The National Security wing of the GOP goes into crisis, with a few equivocal denunciations from, I don't know, Brent Scowcroft or someone.

The next big GOP dominoes to fall, I think, are the Bush family. Will they depart en masse? With a volley of Trump insults at their heels?
posted by argybarg at 8:58 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

They can't strip Trump of the GOP nomination. What they can do, with the kind of money the Kochs have (and maybe Adelson, depending on how things go) is stand up a Conservative Party, more or less overnight, and then fold it back into the GOP later (or not).

And a superficially new party might be able to recruit a candidate who wouldn't touch this last primary, and so hasn't been sullied by it. Like Romney, or McCain -- who are both openly contemptuous of Trump and attractive to the Never Hillary people who are still anti-Trump.

They'd have to leave Ryan behind, I suppose. Or, he'd have to lead the revolt.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:00 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

Speaking of great timing, maybe not so much for Reince.

"At time when US is newly concerned about terrorist attacks, we can't afford such unprincipled & out-of-touch leadership on world stage."
posted by chris24 at 9:01 AM on August 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

What they can do, with the kind of money the Kochs (and maybe Adelson, depending on how things go) is stand up a Conservative Party, more or less overnight, and then fold it back into the GOP later (or not).

What's the deadline for getting such a nominee onto the ballot in all 50 states?
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:02 AM on August 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

isn't it much too late for a new party to get its nominees on the ballot in enough states, though? wouldn't they have to get their nominees entered on the line for some other extant party?
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 9:02 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

What's the deadline for getting such a nominee onto the ballot in all 50 states?

Too late. Texas was months ago, and others too. They could get a person on some states to prevent a Trump victory and help down ballot some, but not 50 unless they took over the Libertarian ticket.
posted by chris24 at 9:03 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

And so the Party of Lincoln declares moral bankruptcy, screws its investors, and sets up shop just down the street under a new name and a spotless BBB rating.
posted by infinitewindow at 9:03 AM on August 3, 2016 [21 favorites]

What's the deadline for getting such a nominee onto the ballot in all 50 states?

Long since past.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:03 AM on August 3, 2016

What they can do . . . is stand up a Conservative Party, more or less overnight

And spend untold millions persuading people to write-in their candidate's name, because it's too late to add a new party to the November ballots.

Ballotpedia

posted by Herodios at 9:05 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Amusing and sobering ad from Priorities USA: Dangerous President.
posted by Excommunicated Cardinal at 9:05 AM on August 3, 2016

MANAFORT: now we must follow every part of this plan precisely--
TRUMP: the people on the Challenger basically deserved it

(These two people are absolutely on fire with this exchange.)
posted by Etrigan at 9:06 AM on August 3, 2016 [20 favorites]

Too late. Texas was months ago, and others too. They could get a person on some states to prevent a Trump victory and help down ballot some, but not 50 unless they took over the Libertarian ticket.

Yeah, it wouldn't be to actually win at this point (that would have to be by write-in which is probably not plausible and could be a nightmare with a vacant seat on the Supreme Court). It would be to doom Trump and claw back control of the GOP, or abandon it for a new vehicle in future election cycles.
posted by snuffleupagus at 9:06 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

There's only one thing to do.
[dramatic music]
Hello? Get me the Echo chamber.
Echo chamber? This is base. Begin unfreezing the Cheney.
*click*

. . . And $diety help us all.
/fadetocommercial
posted by petebest at 9:06 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Honestly I was expecting this new party gambit to take place months ago (when it would have been effective). Well, actually, I've been expecting it for years as the establishment conservatives became more and more marginalized within their own party.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:06 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

"At time when US is newly concerned about terrorist attacks, we can't afford such unprincipled & out-of-touch leadership on world stage."

Surely this is Reince, held hostage, sending a HALP to the world, right?
posted by argybarg at 9:08 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Is he actually talking about Trump there? You would sanely assume so, given the context. But there is the wider context of these fuckers saying that about anyone they disagree with.
posted by vbfg at 9:09 AM on August 3, 2016

Surely this is Reince, held hostage, sending a HALP to the world, right?

Or it's his endorsement of Clinton.
posted by chris24 at 9:09 AM on August 3, 2016

MADISON: This is great! He’s out of power. He holds no office. And he just destroyed ~~President John Adams~~ Rep. Paul Ryan, the only other significant member of his party.

JEFFERSON: Trump is a host unto himself. As long as he can pen a tweet, he’s a threat.
posted by mbrubeck at 9:10 AM on August 3, 2016 [17 favorites]

The replies to Reince's tweet are hilarious. I think the first one is just "?"
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:10 AM on August 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

[JEFFERSON]
Though ‘virtue’ is not a word I’d apply to this situation—
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:12 AM on August 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

What's the deadline for getting such a nominee onto the ballot in all 50 states?

Ballotpedia redux:

Still Open
Arizona, Kentucky, Mississippi, Rhode Island, North Dakota, Oregon, Wyoming, Virginia, Idaho, Minnesota, New York, Iowa, Louisiana, Alabama, Tennessee, Montana, Utah, California, Alaska, Colorado, Connecticut, Hawaii, New Hampshire, Ohio, Washington, D.C.

Too late: Past Deadline
Massachusetts, South Dakota, Wisconsin, Arkansas, Kansas, Maine, Maryland, Nebraska, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Vermont, West Virginia, Missouri, Washington, Michigan, Delaware, Florida, Oklahoma, South Carolina, Georgia, Nevada, Indiana, New Mexico, Illinois, North Carolina, Texas

posted by Herodios at 9:13 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

I can't imagine it would happen, but could states change the laws that set the deadlines and extend them?
posted by Green With You at 9:14 AM on August 3, 2016

I don't have much faith in the GOP's capacity for shame.

The important thing is that individual Republicans at least believe that they do personally; and that they might have much to lose.

posted by Herodios at 9:16 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Washington Post list of high profile Republicans who have come out in support of Clinton

posted by Sublimity at 9:17 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

Washington Post list of high profile Republicans who have come out in support of Clinton

So far, zero elected officials who expect to be elected officials come January.

posted by Herodios at 9:20 AM on August 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

What's the deadline for getting such a nominee onto the ballot in all 50 states?

Looks like they'll just have to mug Gary Johnson.
posted by Artw at 9:21 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

Even if the GOP was able to get its candidate on all of the ballots still, they would be competing against trump's hard floor of ~30% of the electorate who are going to feel pretty raw that the charismatic strongman they love unconditionally got replaced by the party establishment they've been conditioned to hate throughout the primaries. I don't think that GOP hail mary candidate pulls enough away from Hillary to make the election winnable for them or for trump, and even if trump wins, I don't think that the GOP who just backstabbed him will be treated well.
posted by codacorolla at 9:23 AM on August 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

i don't think their goal would be to win, it would be to get away from the trumpstank before it sticks to them indelibly
posted by murphy slaw at 9:24 AM on August 3, 2016 [9 favorites]

The smart move for Republican Trump non-supporters would be to ghost (or continue ghosting, as the case may be) on his campaign while allowing him to remain the nominee because it was 'the will of the voters.' The next step would be to rally the RNC and whatever still-respected rump of Republicans remains to campaign vigorously for House and Senate candidates under the banner of 'Stop Hillary!'. Basically, imply that it would be okay if Clinton was President, because the House and Senate wouldn't let her appoint Supreme Court justices, or expand Obamacare, or whatever the policy phobia of the week is.

They could even couch it in fake flattery for Trump, all like 'Donald's success have proven that he does not need our assistance to win and win big. That's why we'll be working hard to get folks with conservative values elected to the House and Senate.'
posted by palindromic at 9:25 AM on August 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

I don't think they would think it's winnable. It's clearly not. But they may be taking a longer view of saving the party, defeating Trump, and saving face.
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:26 AM on August 3, 2016

I was under the impression that in most of those states, there was still time to change the listed party nominee, just no time left to get another whole party on the ballot. I mean, if the nominees weren't official until last week, the deadline can't have been months ago for a specific nominee. (This is all academic cause Trump's not getting kicked out, but still.)
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:26 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

They could unfreeze the Supremes nomination hearings. Trump is busy playing 'if you don't elect me, the SC is screwed, so I don't care whether you like me or not'. At this stage, getting Garland on the bench in exchange for spiking Trump's guns even a little must start to seem like the bargain of a lifetime.
posted by Devonian at 9:27 AM on August 3, 2016

I was under the impression that in most of those states, there was still time to change the listed party nominee,

Correct, but they can't kick Trump off. So they'd need a third party.
posted by chris24 at 9:28 AM on August 3, 2016

I would gain a level of respect for Mitt Romney that I never thought possible if he would campaign for Gary Johnson in Utah. DO IT, MITT! History will smile on you! Come on!
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:28 AM on August 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

What's the deadline for getting such a nominee onto the ballot in all 50 states?

Looks like they'll just have to mug Gary Johnson.

"Nice ballot access you got here. Shame if something... happened to it."
posted by Etrigan at 9:29 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

McCain:
In the end, I am morally bound to speak only to the things that command my allegiance, and to which I have dedicated my life’s work: the Republican Party, and more importantly, the United States of America. I will not refrain from doing my utmost by those lights simply because it may benefit others with whom I disagree.

You are a lying, cowardly, morally bankrupt, careerist fascism-enabler.

But if does end up going all the way and doing the right thing, the best thing to do is fully embrace his change of heart, even if you know it's not genuine, because by simply taking the statements at face value, he'll lock himself into that position.

It seems to be what HRC and the other democrats are doing. Just keep being the grown-ups in the room and patiently wait for people to come to their senses. When they do, greet them with love, respect, and kindness.
posted by VTX at 9:30 AM on August 3, 2016 [14 favorites]

Correct, but they can't kick Trump off.

I think this is up in the air - see above, "The Republican National Committee is hereby authorized and empowered to fill any and all vacancies which may occur by reason of death, declination, or otherwise of the Republican candidate for President of the United States" - but even if they technically, through some convoluted rules-lawyering, COULD kick him off, the failure of #nevertrump at the convention pretty much shows that they WON't kick him off.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:30 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

It has been less than a week since the beginning of the general election. A week.

Trump hasn't even lasted a week without fucking up so badly that the GOP itself is imploding.

Not even one week.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:31 AM on August 3, 2016 [37 favorites]

GOP members are now going through the kind of bartering that family members go through when a sociopathic narcissist enters the family. They want to believe they can mitigate the damage, or appease the monster or change him in some way. When in fact the only way to deal with the monster is to get the hell away, because he'll gladly take the family down with him.
posted by argybarg at 9:32 AM on August 3, 2016 [20 favorites]

And now MSNBC is reporting that a DC Transit officer has been arrested for supporting ISIS. We are truly inside a mobius strip.
posted by gatorae at 9:32 AM on August 3, 2016

Read this tweet storm by Republican national security expert John Noonan. Sobering and frightening.

"14. But imagine having to turn launch keys not knowing if we were under attack or if it was b/c foreign leader said a mean thing on twitter"
posted by chris24 at 9:32 AM on August 3, 2016 [17 favorites]

Georgia Republican says he might withhold electoral college vote from Donald Trump: "As a 2016 Presidential Elector, I am forever grateful to our state Party and our Chairman for bestowing this once-in-a-lifetime honor on me. I take my role seriously and in the face of the difficult choice before us, I will always put America First over party and labels. Thus, I will not be voting for Donald Trump in the general election. My conscience is clear but my soul is being tested. Born in Saigon, my family knows what it is like to lose a country and my family is forever indebted to America and our allies. I have never questioned the soul, character and goodness of the Nation by who we have chosen as our leader throughout history. Until now."
posted by acidic at 9:34 AM on August 3, 2016 [38 favorites]

Guys, guys, a small request - could we please hold back on the made-up quotes now? Or if it's funny, please at least put a prominent [Fake] tag on it or something? Because I just can't keep up any longer with what's real and what's not.

Did Donald Trump actually call Harrisburg, PA a war zone? He didn't promise to use nukes because "why else are we producing them", right? That's all fiction? But then:

RUCKER: Can we talk about the debates for a minute?
TRUMP: Squirrel!
Real or fake?

What about this?
Reince Priebus Verified account @Reince:
At time when US is newly concerned about terrorist attacks, we can't afford such unprincipled & out-of-touch leadership on world stage
It says "Verified" - is he un-endorsing?

Is this real?
MANAFORT: now we must follow every part of this plan precisely--
TRUMP: the people on the Challenger basically deserved it

I feel like I'm losing my mind and I can't tell any longer. [Edvard-Munch-Scream.jpg]
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:36 AM on August 3, 2016 [44 favorites]

Meanwhile, in Pennsylvania...
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:37 AM on August 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

I don't understand what this achieves from the POV of the Republican party.

I can see a case for it, if the GOP cared at all about governance and not just playing at the edge of the rules to maintain their grasp on power. Putting Garland on the court takes away a major pressure in the election that would lead people to hold their nose for trump. Garland is moderate enough that they could still win some cases in the courts, and is far less liberal than what they'll get if trump sinks enough down-ticket races to give the Dems the senate. Republicans are then free to repudiate trump, write off the White House this year, and focus on the down-ticket, leading to a continuation of the present situation which has worked out decently enough for them, and with the goal of playing obstructionist keep-away with the Clinton administration until they can oust her in four years with a golden boy candidate.
posted by codacorolla at 9:37 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

RedorGreen:

1. Fake
2. Real but he's probably, hilariously, talking about Clinton
3. Fake
posted by soren_lorensen at 9:38 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Garland isn't an uber-liberal. He would have been a fairly easy face to accept, if the GOP weren't playing fuck-you-Obama. With him in place, Clinton will have to wait longer to swing the court further to the left - and who knows what happens - but with him not in place, assuming a Clinton win, then it's very possible his nomination will be withdrawn and the court will start to be rebuilt immediately.

And with a stable 9-seat court in place, Trump can't do the 'I'm untouchable, because you won't dare vote against me and risk a generation of liberal judicial decisions, (Well, he can and doubtless will, but it's not so potent.)

It's a mixture of damage limitation, keeping options open for as long as possible, and removing some of Trump's assumed teflon coating.

Not much, but they ain't got nothing otherwise. Plus, a bit of non-obstructionism would be no bad thing.
posted by Devonian at 9:38 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

But if they hypothetically replaced Trump as the nominee, that person would get on the ballot in all 50 states? Is that correct?
posted by Sophie1 at 9:39 AM on August 3, 2016

He didn't promise to use nukes because "why else are we producing them"

Yes, he said that in the Chris Matthews interview linked in my post with the quote.
posted by chris24 at 9:39 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

But the nukes? And Harrisburg?
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:39 AM on August 3, 2016

Because I just can't keep up any longer with what's real and what's not.

I have some bad news for you about your "fictional" examples.
posted by schadenfrau at 9:40 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

MANAFORT: now we must follow every part of this plan precisely--
TRUMP: the people on the Challenger basically deserved it

(These two people are absolutely on fire with this exchange.)

Quoting this because this thread really is just insanely good:

@ByYourLogic: everyone warned us that Manafort was some type of election magician, yet he is powerless in the face of a weird rich guy getting really mad

[...]

@boring_as_heck
MANAFORT: we need to empathize your core competency-
TRUMP: you have to admire how well Columbine was planned

posted by Rustic Etruscan at 9:40 AM on August 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

The "war zone" quote is also real to the extent that anything is anymore
posted by theodolite at 9:40 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Forget Rudy and the other buffoons. There's only one person who can rescue this campaign. I mean it says so, right on the sign!
posted by starzero at 9:41 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro
posted by entropicamericana at 9:41 AM on August 3, 2016 [11 favorites]

MATTHEWS: They're hearing a guy running for president of the United States talking of maybe using nuclear weapons. Nobody wants to hear that about an American president.

TRUMP: Then why are we making them? Why do we make them?

Real.
posted by chris24 at 9:41 AM on August 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

Trump's Baby Gaffe as an Example of Gaslighting of Women in the Wild:

But he didn’t yell at a baby. He yelled at a woman who had a baby.

And more importantly, he didn’t just yell at her, he gaslighted her, telling her at first that it was OK that her baby was fussing, and then acting like she was nuts for taking him at his word and should have somehow divined magically that he actually wanted her to leave.

posted by palindromic at 9:43 AM on August 3, 2016 [63 favorites]

Storified tweet storm from Republican national security advisor John Noonan mentioned above.
posted by chris24 at 9:46 AM on August 3, 2016 [22 favorites]

GOP members are now going through the kind of bartering that family members go through when a sociopathic narcissist enters the family. They want to believe they can mitigate the damage, or appease the monster or change him in some way.

This. The Priebus & co "intervention" is laughably futile: they think they can "talk him into" behaving in a more appropriate manner? They can't. The only thing Trump listens to is his own impulses.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 9:50 AM on August 3, 2016 [11 favorites]

Data point: this large thread starting to get hinky for me on mobile...
posted by agregoli at 9:51 AM on August 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

Manafort: "the candidate is in control of his campaign...I'm in control of doing the things he wants me to do.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 9:51 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

This is all so surreal, it's hard to make any predictions but... It seems increasingly true that Trump is going to destroy something big as he flames out. I hear the fear that that something will be civil discourse and democratic norms. But it seems more and more likely to me that it will actually be the GOP. I mean, don't get me wrong, Trump has already fed the flames of racism and xenophobia and done a lot of damage to the social fabric. But if he continues to slide in the polls and more and more Republicans decide to stand against him, the infighting in the party is going to get brutal. When you factor in the distrust between conservative movement folks and The Establishment and Trump's tendency to attack his allies for any slights, well... I don't see how the GOP gets through this without serious, serious wounds.
posted by overglow at 9:51 AM on August 3, 2016 [8 favorites]

The full context of the nuclear discussion in the Chris Matthews' hosted Town Hall is worth reading, because Trump's saying he won't take the option of using them "off the table" while simultaneously saying he won't use them AND talking about circumstances where using them might be appropriate. It's a response that feels very Republican. If he says he won't use them ever, then they lose their power as a deterrent.
posted by zarq at 9:52 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

New thread request seconded
posted by Devonian at 9:52 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

The intervention story is weird to me because it seems like it would be almost certain to send Trump into a rage as soon as he reads it, thereby rendering it useless. Whoever would be in a position to leak this would surely be aware that he'd take this being made public extremely poorly, so why do it?
posted by feloniousmonk at 9:54 AM on August 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

Manafort: "the candidate is in control of his campaign...I'm in control of doing the things he wants me to do.

(blink blink blink ... bliiink bliiink bliiink ... blink blink blink...)
posted by Etrigan at 9:54 AM on August 3, 2016 [17 favorites]

Noonan is a major nuclear hawk who's been a vocal opponent of disarmament. If he's freaked out, things are serious.
posted by EarBucket at 9:54 AM on August 3, 2016 [15 favorites]

murphy slaw: "yes, given our track record since vietnam, just because we lob a couple hundred megatons of nuclear weapons at a country doesn't mean we're at war with them"

About the only upside is it couldn't be done in secret like the last time the US dropped a couple mega tons of explosives on a country.

argybarg: "
I think he would drop a preemptive bomb somewhere Middle East-ish, then let China and Mexico know it was time to wise up or they're next."

In a "stop punching your self" tit for tat escalation China just stops lending the US money. Trump is deposed in weeks.

chris24: "What's the deadline for getting such a nominee onto the ballot in all 50 states?

Too late. Texas was months ago, and others too. "

How does this work with Clinton not being confirmed until last week?
posted by Mitheral at 9:54 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

new thread request thirded.
posted by foxy_hedgehog at 9:55 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

Georgia Republican says he might withhold electoral college vote from Donald Trump: As a 2016 Presidential Elector, I am forever grateful to our state Party and our Chairman for bestowing this once-in-a-lifetime honor on me. I take my role seriously and in the face of the difficult choice before us, I will always put America First over party and labels. Thus, I will not be voting for Donald Trump in the general election.

Huh. I've vaguely wondered if this might happen. Of course I thought the same was an outside possibility at RNC and it didn't pan out there. But where RNC rules around faithless delegates were unclear or ultimately adjudicated by the chair, this is an elector who apparently has a legal right to vote independently saying unequivocally that they will not vote for Donald Trump if elected on his slate.

Questiona:

Is there any mechanism a candidate has for removing an elector on their slate? If so, what is the deadline for doing so?

Are there other Trump electors in one of these "21 states that do not require its members of the electoral college to adhere to the results of the popular vote in their state" who are thinking similar things and whose states might elect (a) Trump (delegation)?

Hey any journalists out there who got woke in the last week or two, I have a job for you.
posted by tivalasvegas at 9:55 AM on August 3, 2016

I'd love to see people try and get into his campaign as volunteers and just document and liveblog that shit anonymously. See who calls you back, ask them questions, act excited, etc., then just get absolutely nothing done but gossiping.

that might be more challenging than it seems
posted by prize bull octorok at 9:55 AM on August 3, 2016

How does this work with Clinton not being confirmed until last week?

Parties are set already in many states, not candidates. Too late to add a party.
posted by chris24 at 9:56 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

New thread request fourthed – my phone just sobs when I try to load the page. It's even getting kinda janky in Chrome on my Win7 box.

I don't envy the mods, though – there are good reasons for limiting topical threads, but the appetite for this conversation seems inexhaustible. Paginated threads seem like the best solution, but that's not something that can be developed and rolled out properly overnight. (And I'm sure it's been considered before, and rejected for reasons that were sound at the time. But maybe it's time to reconsider?)
posted by escape from the potato planet at 9:57 AM on August 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'd love to see people try and get into his campaign as volunteers and just document and liveblog that shit anonymously.

Oh, I'm pretty sure there are going to be several incendiary "inside the campaign" books when this is all over; if nothing else because how else do you salvage having been involved in it?
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 9:57 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

"What's the deadline for getting such a nominee onto the ballot in all 50 states?

Too late. Texas was months ago, and others too. "

How does this work with Clinton not being confirmed until last week?

The Republican, Democratic, and Libertarian Parties already have ballot access in all 50 states for their chosen nominees based on performance in previous elections and/or the number of people who are registered in those parties. Anyone running outside those parties has to jump through various hoops to get on the ballot, based on the state.
posted by Etrigan at 9:57 AM on August 3, 2016

Manafort: "the candidate is in control of his campaign...I'm in control of doing the things he wants me to do.

Has the sitting campaign manager of a US presidential campaign ever thrown their own candidate under the bus before?
posted by zombieflanders at 9:57 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

Just a reminder of a stopgap until a new thread appears -- the Classic or Plain templates seem to have fewer issues on megathreads. Check under your Preferences.
posted by Celsius1414 at 10:01 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Angela Rye, the Only Good Political Commentator, Told Corey Lewandowski, 'Boy Bye' on Air:

“Well you raised the issue, I’m just asking,” said Lewandowski. “You raised the issue, did he ever release his transcripts or his admission to Harvard University? You raised the issue, so just ‘yes,’ or ‘no.’”

“Corey? Just a moment,” said Rye, getting ready for her line. “I’m going to Beyoncé you. Boy, bye. You just so out of line right now, tell your candidate to release his tax returns.”

posted by palindromic at 10:02 AM on August 3, 2016 [61 favorites]

Chafee has endorsed! Finally going to turn this thing around!

(and yeah, I'm going to either need a new thread, or a new computer).
posted by acidic at 10:02 AM on August 3, 2016

Apparently everyone has decided that there is absolutely no downside for blatantly shitting on Trump, therefore:

White House Slams Trump On “Rigged Election” Claim: This Is What People Who Lose Elections Say

posted by murphy slaw at 10:02 AM on August 3, 2016 [26 favorites]

I'm happy to live in a little southwest blue island, even if New Mexico only provides 5 electoral votes. (Join us, Arizona, joooiiin uuuuusssss.) But I'm even happier to see the nowcast showing Hilary with 341.9 electoral votes.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:04 AM on August 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

Manafort on the Scarborough nuclear claim: "It's absolutely not true and in fact those security briefings haven't started yet... I mean I was in the meeting. It didn't happen."

lol so first of all, holy contradiction although we know Joe was talking about a random briefing by an adviser, not the official ones. but secondly-- if it didn't happen how do you know which meeting it was?!?!?!?!
posted by acidic at 10:06 AM on August 3, 2016 [20 favorites]

If you disable live updates to these threads, you can eke out a bit more stability.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:06 AM on August 3, 2016

Well, we're still trying to get lawyers involved, on the basis of the delegate intimidation, on team #NeverTrump, though not with a lot of hope. If the GOP were looking for a parachute, they could grab it. But I don't think they are. They're riding this train into the ground.

Thank you for trying any way. At the very least, you are doing the right thing by the republic and all you can do is try. Eventually the folks that still have a chance of returning to rationality will and you're making the noises that will help to wake them up.

Just keep trying to do the right thing. The dam WILL break.
posted by VTX at 10:06 AM on August 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

New thread is fine with us; someone just needs to make a post that sort of brings us up to date with the most current state of affairs. (a total recap of all the Trump whatthefuckery both daunting, and not necessary, since it would probably take hours just to recap the last two days)
posted by taz (staff) at 10:07 AM on August 3, 2016 [41 favorites]

If you disable live updates to these threads, you can eke out a bit more stability.

the only problem with that is then you don't have live updates
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:07 AM on August 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

I will try (shudder) to put a new thread together. Give me a few minutes... I have some condensing to do
posted by tivalasvegas at 10:08 AM on August 3, 2016 [12 favorites]

Maybe a new thread themed around the apparent downward spiral his campaign seems to be on?
posted by VTX at 10:09 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

You're a brave man. Godspeed!
posted by diogenes at 10:09 AM on August 3, 2016

The "this is not fine" cartoon is already taken.
posted by Artw at 10:10 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

For your thread creating reference purposes, may I refer you to An Abbreviated List of Every Bonkers Thing Donald Trump Has Done In the Past 24 Hours?
posted by zachlipton at 10:11 AM on August 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

Maybe a new thread themed around the apparent downward spiral his campaign seems to be on?

"Mr. Self Destruct"

I am the hate you try to hide and I control you
I take you where you want to go
I give you all you need to know
I drag you down I use you up
Mr. Self Destruct
I speak religion's message clear and I control you
I am denial guilt and fear and I control you
I am the prayers of the naive and I control you
I am the lie that you believe and I control you
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:11 AM on August 3, 2016 [9 favorites]

If we are still fantasizing about an anti-Trump "ratfucking" party, here's some additional datapoints, again via Ballotpedia.

The parties can put up whosoever they want as the actual candidiate (and running mate). The last time there was a late change was in 1972, when Sargent Shriver depped for Thomas Eagleton as George McGovern's running mate -- it was a disaster in every way.

Yes, it is too late today to add a party to the ballot in about half the states -- see above.

Some states do not allow write-ins in the prez:
Nevada
South Dakota
New Mexico
Oklahoma
Arkansas
Louisiana
Mississippi
South Carolina
Hawaii

Some states allow write-ins with no filing requirements at all:
Oregon
Iowa
Pennsylvania
New Jersay
Rhode Island
Vermont
New Hampster

The others allow write-ins, but there are still hoops to jump through.

If an Anti-trump party wanted to specifically sabotage Trump's run, the good new is that Ohio and Florida do allow write-ins, but they'd need to get some bumf filed with the SoS office first. Pennsylvania allows write-ins without additional paperwork. Trump's hypothetical route to victory runs through all those states -- virtually requires two out of three.

Too, Kasich is already working against Trump in Ohio.

Interesting times.

posted by Herodios at 10:12 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Mr. Self Destruct

Or "The Man Is Non-Stop"
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:12 AM on August 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

"White House Slams Trump On “Rigged Election” Claim: This Is What People Who Lose Elections Say"

That's getting closer, but I won't be satisfied until people are regularly making the little forefinger-thumb "L" at their foreheads.
posted by klarck at 10:13 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Honestly I'm pretty much at a loss to suggest a suitable Hamilton lyric for a new thread title at this point. Is there a deleted scene somewhere where Burr wants to nuke the French even though they're our allies and then he yells at a old-timey fire marshal? Because we seem to have gotten too far off script.
posted by zachlipton at 10:15 AM on August 3, 2016 [9 favorites]

In the eye of a hurricane there is quiet. For just a moment.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:16 AM on August 3, 2016 [8 favorites]

Mr. Self Destruct

Or March of the Pigs.

I want to break it up I want to smash it up I want to fuck it up
I want to watch it come down
Maybe afraid of it let's discredit it let's pick away at it
I want to watch it come down
Now doesn't that make you feel better?
The pigs have won tonight
Now they can all sleep soundly
And everything is all right

posted by Existential Dread at 10:16 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

That's getting closer, but I won't be satisfied until people are regularly making the little forefinger-thumb "L" at their foreheads.

To quote the philosopher, "put it on a t-shirt".

Or a goofy hat.

posted by Herodios at 10:16 AM on August 3, 2016

I know it's hard to remember because it was nearly two weeks ago, but Trump did try to pivot for the general election. He talked about how kicking out Mexicans and banning Muslims was going to free up jobs for inner city youths, and tried to attack from the left by trying to take up the mantle of Bernie. It didn't last long because he immediately got offended by Hillary not congratulating him for his historic primary victory, having won a larger primary popular vote than any other white male.

Perhaps Hillary had been unimpressed because she got a bigger popular vote 8 years ago, when she lost to Obama.
posted by ckape at 10:18 AM on August 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

Pence calling into Fox just now. "I strongly support Paul Ryan, strongly endorse his re-election"
posted by sporkwort at 10:18 AM on August 3, 2016 [8 favorites]

Please not Closer.
posted by Artw at 10:18 AM on August 3, 2016 [9 favorites]

Honestly I'm pretty much at a loss to suggest a suitable Hamilton lyric for a new thread title at this point.

Reminder: many of us do not give a rats for Hamilton.

posted by Herodios at 10:18 AM on August 3, 2016 [18 favorites]

Perhaps Hillary had been unimpressed because she got a bigger popular vote 8 years ago, when she lost to Obama.

And also this year. "Hey Donnie, you did great! For a dude."
posted by kirkaracha at 10:19 AM on August 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

"White House Slams Trump On “Rigged Election” Claim: This Is What People Who Lose Elections Say"

That's getting closer, but I won't be satisfied until people are regularly making the little forefinger-thumb "L" at their foreheads.

Loser throws tantrum, blames rules of the game - sad!
posted by infinitywaltz at 10:19 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

FiveThirtyEight weighs in on the shitshow: Is Donald Trump Blowing It?

i suspect betteridge's law does not apply
posted by murphy slaw at 10:20 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

I wonder how much money it would take for the GOP to simply pay him to drop out? Not that they could probably stomach Trump bragging about the great deal he made to step aside.
posted by gusottertrout at 10:21 AM on August 3, 2016

Surely nobody has ever needed more to "Talk less. Smile more"?
posted by Huffy Puffy at 10:21 AM on August 3, 2016 [11 favorites]

"Mr. Self Destruct"

You couldn't escape from this fact of life
That existing makes you a mess
That every decision or feeling or reason
Causes some sort of mental distress

You could look in their eyes, you perfected a lie
Never gave them the chance to question why
If they hit on you then you hit right back
Never keeping their cool it was up and attack

Building your life up and smashing it down
posted by snofoam at 10:22 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

In the eye of a hurricane there is quiet. For just a moment.

I talked my way out.
Said everything aloud that I could see
I talked my way out
I looked up and CNN had its eyes on me

I said a lot of things
Total nonsense
Moved to blabber by my ego
Said enough for me to book passage on a
Jet that was Priebus-bound

This is the eye of the hurricane, this is the only
Way I can boot my ego…

Wait for it, wait for it, wait for it, wait

The Gold Star Pamphlet
posted by zachlipton at 10:22 AM on August 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

Heh - current cnn.com headline: "GOP Freaks Out"
posted by macfly at 10:23 AM on August 3, 2016 [9 favorites]

Honestly I'm pretty much at a loss to suggest a suitable Hamilton lyric for a new thread title at this point.

"All right, so we're doing this"?

"Everything is legal in New Jersey"?

"SOUTHERN MOTHERFUCKING DEMOCRATIC REPUBLICANS"?
posted by jokeefe at 10:25 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

be glad metafilter doesn't do images or i would be pasting ITS_HAPPENING.GIF 1000 pixels high over and over again
posted by murphy slaw at 10:25 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

ABC: Senior GOP Officials Exploring Options if Trump Drops Out.
posted by bearwife at 10:25 AM on August 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

If anyone is working on a new thread the Newsweek article linked somewhere up thread had the most comprehensive history of the failed business deals. Also tidbits like he wanted to go to USC and did not get in, went to Fordham and then transferred to Penn majoring in Econ. Or as he calls it 'Wharton'.
posted by readery at 10:26 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Holy shitballs, Nowcast is giving Hillary an 85.0% chance of a win. Faith in the world slightly renewed.

Maybe the new title should just be The Downward Spiral, that whole record is appropriate to Tronald Dump's persona.
posted by Existential Dread at 10:27 AM on August 3, 2016 [9 favorites]

Let's not jinx it. Maybe the title should be knock on wood.
posted by snofoam at 10:28 AM on August 3, 2016 [14 favorites]

Heh - current cnn.com headline: "GOP Freaks Out"

msnbc.com: "GOP reels after problematic day from Trump"

foxnews.com: "TRUMP SEEING GREEN: Campaign reports fundraising surge, cranks up battleground push post-convention"

Seriously, Fox?
posted by Roommate at 10:29 AM on August 3, 2016 [8 favorites]

current cnn.com headline: "GOP Freaks Out"

I'm picturing Paul Ryan silently crying, while running on a treadmill in a darkened Congressional meeting room, with Freak Out on repeat.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:30 AM on August 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

Just a reminder to those who might not have seen it up thread (or in a previous thread), that Nowcast swings a TON day to day. It's a good snap-shot of how the people polled today feel about the race right now, but it's not a good predictor of actual election outcomes.

But yeah, totally makes me at least a little bit better.
posted by VTX at 10:30 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

cranks up battleground push post-convention

such battlegrounds as maine
posted by murphy slaw at 10:31 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

I will try (shudder) to put a new thread together.

thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you
posted by gimonca at 10:32 AM on August 3, 2016

Let's not jinx it. Maybe the title should be knock on wood.

Also acceptable.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:32 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

per Countess Elena's storify link which has more of those Manafort jokes.

This is a real thing: Asbestos could've have saved WTC Twin Towers
posted by numaner at 10:33 AM on August 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

Nowcast swings a TON day to day

I was listening to a recent 538 podcast, and Nate Silver basically shrugged off the Nowcast and said something about how they had to make it to have something similar to their competitors. They don't seem to give it much thought. They focus much more on the Polls Only and Polls Plus.
posted by diogenes at 10:33 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

I resent Trump worst of all for making me an addict. I've gained 15 pounds in popcorn weight. I've worn my fingers to lil trumpstumps hitting "recent activity." I'm shaking and sweating trying to wait until 3 for him to get behind a microphone and claim he was viciously attacked yesterday by a baby.
posted by Don Pepino at 10:34 AM on August 3, 2016 [22 favorites]

I'm picturing Paul Ryan silently crying, while running on a treadmill in a darkened Congressional meeting room, with Freak Out on repeat.

Whoooooooooo . . .
Could i-MAG-ine
That they would freak-out
In Washington D.C.
ay ce de ce badabap, ay ce de ce badabap

No no no no no no no no
It can't happen here,
you guys are really safe,
everything's coooool . . .
posted by Herodios at 10:35 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

I resent Trump worst of all for making me an addict.

Yeah, my relationship with these threads may not be entirely healthy.
posted by diogenes at 10:35 AM on August 3, 2016 [29 favorites]

CNN: Macy's dumps Donald Trump.
posted by Celsius1414 at 10:37 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Bill Bratton: Confident in NYPD, but Trump "scares the hell out of me."
posted by bearwife at 10:37 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

That Macy's article is over a year old.
posted by escape from the potato planet at 10:38 AM on August 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

Macy's dumped Trump in 2015.
posted by Roommate at 10:38 AM on August 3, 2016

Sorry about that -- I saw it tweeted as if it were new.
posted by Celsius1414 at 10:39 AM on August 3, 2016

I can't believe no one has suggested "Watching It Burn".
posted by corb at 10:40 AM on August 3, 2016

Reminder: many of us do not give a rats for Hamilton.

Which is actually a line from Hamilton!
posted by drezdn at 10:42 AM on August 3, 2016 [12 favorites]

I resent Trump worst of all for making me an addict.

Yeah, my relationship with these threads may not be entirely healthy.

I had a nightmare involving Trump last night. This is not a good sign (w/r/t my mental health).
posted by misskaz at 10:43 AM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

I can't believe no one has suggested "Watching It Burn".

There's always 'Burning Down the House.'

Watch out, you might get what you're after
Cool babies, strange but not a stranger
I'm an ordinary guy
Burning down the house

Hold tight
Wait 'til the party's over
Hold tight
We're in for nasty weather
There has got to be a way
Burning down the house
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:43 AM on August 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

Have we used "What comes next?" for an election thread yet, or should we save it until after the RNC cuts off Trump altogether?
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:44 AM on August 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

All nuclear launches are countersigned by the Secretary of Defense under the two man rule as a last ditch stopgap. Trump's only options are to not use nukes or fire the Secretary of Defense.

You realize that the President chooses who he wants to be Secretary of Defense. Any scenario in which Trump wins the Presidency, he also likely gets a majority of a (compliant) Senate to confirm his cabinet choices.
posted by JackFlash at 10:44 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

Sam Wang fires shots at 538's fluctuating prediction: Good predictions should be stable. PEC November win probability plotted over time
posted by a car full of lions at 10:44 AM on August 3, 2016 [9 favorites]

for my part I think "what comes next?" would be a good title for the next thread, since we could still use "You’re on your own. Awesome. Wow. Do you have a clue what happens now?" for when the RNC finally decides they're done with him.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 10:45 AM on August 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

I don't think I dreamed about Trump, but I certainly dreamed about Hillary. I dreamed she was the next Doctor, and Peter Capaldi's faced morphed into her's. I didn't see all of what she was wearing, but it look liked some kind of coat with an upturned collar. I also dreamed she was starring in a "Blake's 7" reboot called "Gran's 7." I don't even want to know what's going in my head, but maybe I should lay off these threads for a while.
posted by mollweide at 10:47 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm seeing an odd pattern here regarding dreams. A few nights ago I had a 1984-esque nightmare in which Trump was Big Brother. Anytime I messed up he would shove popsicles up my ass as punishment.

This comment is not satire.
posted by R.F.Simpson at 10:50 AM on August 3, 2016 [8 favorites]

In the eye of a hurricane there is quiet. For just a moment.

I chickened out on the hard part, but realized that's just not right. Did Trump chicken out on insulting a baby and its mother or attacking a second fire marshal or eating fried chicken with a knife and fork? Hell no, and I shouldn't either. (I did, however, chicken out on some elements of rhythm, for which I apologize.)

I talked my way into hell
I talked my way to nomination
I was fed up with a baby's yell
I talked election results said they're going to smell
I ignored the Constitution and said I wanted a medal on my lapel
And I'm the face of ignorance and impudence
I insult Gold Star families from a place of belligerence
And when my view of the fire code was met with indifference
I opened my mouth, I put Ryan in his own sufferance
posted by zachlipton at 10:50 AM on August 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

You ever see somebody ruin their own life? ... His poor wife
posted by MCMikeNamara at 10:54 AM on August 3, 2016 [10 favorites]

This comment is not satire.

Stay frosty.
posted by snuffleupagus at 10:55 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

I've got a Hamilton reference for the November 9th post. It's from "The Reynolds Pamphlet."
posted by drezdn at 10:59 AM on August 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

could states change the laws that set the deadlines and extend them?

Conceivably, but most state legislatures are basically done legislatin' until after the election, and some of them aren't even scheduled to reconvene until January.
posted by holgate at 11:00 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

I had a dream last week that I was running a D&D game for Trump and Cruz. Hillary was supposed to show up but she never did.
posted by sporkwort at 11:01 AM on August 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

New thread.
posted by tivalasvegas at 11:01 AM on August 3, 2016 [11 favorites]

New thread is up!
posted by sandettie light vessel automatic at 11:02 AM on August 3, 2016

In the quite unlikely case of Trump leaving the race, who would replace him?

We have a default now -- Mike Pence. I'm sure he'd be considered reasonable by most Republicans. He would want to pick a new VP candidate of course, but that's small potatoes.

Any other Republican might turn down the offer to take over as captain of a sinking ship, but there is no reasonable way Pence could. His VP could be an ambitious state legislator for all anyone cares.
posted by msalt at 11:02 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

could states change the laws that set the deadlines and extend them?

Conceivably, but most state legislatures are basically done legislatin' until after the election, and some of them aren't even scheduled to reconvene until January.

There would be legal challenges.
posted by snuffleupagus at 11:02 AM on August 3, 2016

> "Is there a deleted scene somewhere where Burr wants to nuke the French even though they're our allies and then he yells at a old-timey fire marshal?"

Fun fact -- After the events of Hamilton, Burr was tried for treason over his plot to invade Mexico.

I'm not at all kidding.
posted by kyrademon at 11:06 AM on August 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

Mike Pence. I'm sure he'd be considered reasonable by most Republicans. He would want to pick a new VP candidate of course, but that's small potatoes.

posted by Herodios at 11:33 AM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Because I just can't keep up any longer with what's real and what's not.

Oh, man, somebody really MUST turn this into a game--Trump Quotes, Real or Fake?

It just shows you one complete insane quote after another, and for each one, you have to swipe right for real - left for fake. Sort of a "Tinder for Trump" thing.

Did Donald Trump actually call Harrisburg, PA a war zone?

Real or fake? Real

He didn't promise to use nukes because "why else are we producing them", right?

Real or fake? Real

RUCKER: Can we talk about the debates for a minute?
TRUMP: Squirrel!

Real or fake? Fake

Reince Priebus Verified account @Reince:
At time when US is newly concerned about terrorist attacks, we can't afford such unprincipled & out-of-touch leadership on world stage

Real or fake? Real, but a fake-out because he is talking about Obama, though everyone (Reince included, probably) knows it applies to Trump even more so

"Black guys counting my money! I hate it. The only kind of people I want counting my money are little short guys that wear yarmulkes every day."

Real or fake? Real

MANAFORT: now we must follow every part of this plan precisely--
TRUMP: the people on the Challenger basically deserved it

Real or fake? Fake

"The concept of global warming was created by and for the Chinese in order to make U.S. manufacturing non-competitive."

Real or fake? Real

Someone please, please do this. There are piles of raw material sitting around just waiting to be harvested, and piles of Trump parody (none of it nearly as good as the original) waiting for you as well . . .
posted by flug at 11:56 AM on August 3, 2016 [12 favorites]

Oh, man, somebody really MUST turn this into a game--Trump Quotes, Real or Fake?

Stephen Colbert already got you there: Trump Or False: RNC Edition
posted by zachlipton at 12:04 PM on August 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

It's a hard one though because if you start plunging his history Trump contradicts himself a lot. And not just on policy things where one could expect any reasonable person to shift over time on at least some issues. No, he vacillates on facts like whether he has ever even met Putin as shown in this Stephen Colbert For Donald Trump, Every Day Is Opposite Day bit. I don't know about you all but I think I'd remember clearly whether I'd ever met Putin or any other world leader for that matter.
posted by Mitheral at 12:30 PM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

zachlipton: Honestly I'm pretty much at a loss to suggest a suitable Hamilton lyric for a new thread title at this point.

"You must be out of your GODDAMNED mind!"

"Sit down John, you fat motherfucker!"

Leaning towards the former. With this lumberingly loading thread, I'm probably the tenth person to suggest them both.
posted by Superplin at 2:15 PM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

And just in case you guys missed it and aren't still commenting on this thread on purpose, there is indeed a new thread.
posted by VTX at 2:28 PM on August 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

sandettie light vessel automatic: "New thread is up!"

623 comments (623 new)

nooooooooooooooo
posted by Rhaomi at 4:11 PM on August 3, 2016 [20 favorites]

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