At least our overlords will have sick tats.
August 12, 2016 8:09 AM Subscribe
At least our overlords will have sick tats.
Or rather, their flesh-servants will be easily bar-coded for tracking.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:35 AM on August 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
Or rather, their flesh-servants will be easily bar-coded for tracking.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 8:35 AM on August 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
I've been thinking about this kind of thing for years, in the abstract. Tattooing seems like one of those things that machines should be much better at than people. This is obviously proof of concept, but add a 3D scanner/Kinect camera bit, and you can do this plus visual previews of how it'll look, etc.
Also, it should be possible to use finer needles and get much more detail, and also probably to use several needles independently in parallel, like an inkjet printer.
I'm not totally convinced a 3D printer is the best basis for it, but it's obviously something fairly easy to use for a prototype. Something very high-end would probably use something like a small industrial robot arm, to be able to work on different sides of limbs, etc. (although it might have a 3D printer head like thing on the end, to do the high-precision movement).
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 8:45 AM on August 12, 2016
Also, it should be possible to use finer needles and get much more detail, and also probably to use several needles independently in parallel, like an inkjet printer.
I'm not totally convinced a 3D printer is the best basis for it, but it's obviously something fairly easy to use for a prototype. Something very high-end would probably use something like a small industrial robot arm, to be able to work on different sides of limbs, etc. (although it might have a 3D printer head like thing on the end, to do the high-precision movement).
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 8:45 AM on August 12, 2016
Tattooing seems like one of those things that machines should be much better at than people.
I would really disagree, or at least I think that logic is something like "a printer can print out a more consistent picture than a person can do by hand." It's true, but you get into weird philosophical territory there where what is the difference between an original piece or art and a copy? And, like, there's at least a half-dozen art movements I can name that explore this territory, but part of the charm of tattoos (at least for me and many people I know) is the sort of imperfect, handmade wabi-sabi nature of them. They are each imperfect in some slight way, all having to do with the tattoo process. Like the clean, sharp lines made by the machine are not to the (primary) tattoo-taste of anyone I know. I'd certainly get one if it was available, but I wouldn't cover my body in machine-made tattoos the way I am slowly proceeding to with handmade ones. Something is lost.
I mean, from a practical perspective, I think that if this takes off we will 100% have Claire's-style mall parlors in which tattoos are done strictly by machine because it is a lot cheaper to hire someone to watch over that kind of machine than it is to hire a trained artist (or train an artist) but it'll never replace the artist. But I'd never say the machine would be better at creating a work of art than a person. Just more consistent, which isn't necessarily even a benefit.
posted by griphus at 8:52 AM on August 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
I would really disagree, or at least I think that logic is something like "a printer can print out a more consistent picture than a person can do by hand." It's true, but you get into weird philosophical territory there where what is the difference between an original piece or art and a copy? And, like, there's at least a half-dozen art movements I can name that explore this territory, but part of the charm of tattoos (at least for me and many people I know) is the sort of imperfect, handmade wabi-sabi nature of them. They are each imperfect in some slight way, all having to do with the tattoo process. Like the clean, sharp lines made by the machine are not to the (primary) tattoo-taste of anyone I know. I'd certainly get one if it was available, but I wouldn't cover my body in machine-made tattoos the way I am slowly proceeding to with handmade ones. Something is lost.
I mean, from a practical perspective, I think that if this takes off we will 100% have Claire's-style mall parlors in which tattoos are done strictly by machine because it is a lot cheaper to hire someone to watch over that kind of machine than it is to hire a trained artist (or train an artist) but it'll never replace the artist. But I'd never say the machine would be better at creating a work of art than a person. Just more consistent, which isn't necessarily even a benefit.
posted by griphus at 8:52 AM on August 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
In the future you'll probably have the same divide that you see with other creative industries: the masses who want tattoos will use the Tat-O-Matic at a store where you pick your design out of a library on a touch screen or upload one you've brought, the rich will be served by a small community of tattoo artists who do expensive custom work.
posted by the legendary esquilax at 8:56 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by the legendary esquilax at 8:56 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
That music is perfect, in some way I can't put my finger on.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 8:57 AM on August 12, 2016
posted by a lungful of dragon at 8:57 AM on August 12, 2016
If you'd really like to build one of these yourself (what could go wrong??),
Yesterday I spent 25 minutes trying to install a windshield wiper.
posted by Fizz at 8:57 AM on August 12, 2016 [35 favorites]
Yesterday I spent 25 minutes trying to install a windshield wiper.
posted by Fizz at 8:57 AM on August 12, 2016 [35 favorites]
the masses who want tattoos will use the Tat-O-Matic at a store where you pick your design out of a library on a touch screen or upload one you've brought, the rich will be served by a small community of tattoo artists who do expensive custom work.
I disagree, just because no one I know who is very fond of getting tattoos is anywhere near rich (lower-middle class at best) but they do all have aesthetic preferences that would mean they'd still be going to artists than machines.
It's the teenagers and drunk people on vacation who stumble into a tattoo shop and demand to be tattooed that'll be getting the mall machine tattoos.
posted by griphus at 9:00 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
I disagree, just because no one I know who is very fond of getting tattoos is anywhere near rich (lower-middle class at best) but they do all have aesthetic preferences that would mean they'd still be going to artists than machines.
It's the teenagers and drunk people on vacation who stumble into a tattoo shop and demand to be tattooed that'll be getting the mall machine tattoos.
posted by griphus at 9:00 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
People in Portland or Brooklyn will get bespoke artisanal hand made tats, everyone else will go to the corner vending booth that gives a robo-tattoo generated by shoving a meme randomly selected from r/all through the cool snapchat filter of the week.
posted by idiopath at 9:01 AM on August 12, 2016
posted by idiopath at 9:01 AM on August 12, 2016
Could this conceivably print a dithered full-color photograph as a tattoo? That would be pretty cool as a tech demo (if pretty terrible as a tattoo)
posted by aubilenon at 9:24 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by aubilenon at 9:24 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yesterday I spent 25 minutes trying to install a windshield wiper.
and now I have to figure out how to get coffee out of my keyboard.
posted by Kabanos at 9:24 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
and now I have to figure out how to get coffee out of my keyboard.
posted by Kabanos at 9:24 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
>>Could this conceivably print a dithered full-color photograph as a tattoo? That would be pretty cool as a tech demo (if pretty terrible as a tattoo)
I was thinking the same thing.
posted by atomicmedia at 9:28 AM on August 12, 2016
I was thinking the same thing.
posted by atomicmedia at 9:28 AM on August 12, 2016
Imagine the possibilities.
Oh, I'm imagining....
posted by Fizz at 9:38 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oh, I'm imagining....
posted by Fizz at 9:38 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
part of the charm of tattoos ... is the sort of imperfect, handmade wabi-sabi nature of them
This can be programmed to a large degree (sadly). Tattoos done by hand by pros/celebrity artists could potentially be scanned, licensed, and replicated, even with random deviations thrown in so that no one has quite the same tattoo, even if it is replica of an original "Paul Booth" (or whoever).
Even if you're not starting with a human-created tattoo, a crisp hard-edged initial design could be modified, digitally by hand or programmatically, to create the equivalent effect of random/imperfect-looking brushes and filters in Photoshop. To the die-hard, these would still be considered "fakes", but to a lot of people the result would be just fine, especially if they end up being significantly cheaper.
posted by Kabanos at 9:41 AM on August 12, 2016
This can be programmed to a large degree (sadly). Tattoos done by hand by pros/celebrity artists could potentially be scanned, licensed, and replicated, even with random deviations thrown in so that no one has quite the same tattoo, even if it is replica of an original "Paul Booth" (or whoever).
Even if you're not starting with a human-created tattoo, a crisp hard-edged initial design could be modified, digitally by hand or programmatically, to create the equivalent effect of random/imperfect-looking brushes and filters in Photoshop. To the die-hard, these would still be considered "fakes", but to a lot of people the result would be just fine, especially if they end up being significantly cheaper.
posted by Kabanos at 9:41 AM on August 12, 2016
and for the true elite: stick n poke.
posted by ennui.bz at 9:44 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by ennui.bz at 9:44 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
the equivalent effect of random/imperfect-looking brushes and filters in Photoshop
True, and I guess many people wouldn't care (or can't tell?), but those filters are a long way off from being a reasonable facsimile of an artist's brush strokes.
posted by cmoj at 9:44 AM on August 12, 2016
True, and I guess many people wouldn't care (or can't tell?), but those filters are a long way off from being a reasonable facsimile of an artist's brush strokes.
posted by cmoj at 9:44 AM on August 12, 2016
This can be programmed to a large degree (sadly).
I have really and truly never seen, in person, a deceptively good computer-generated facsimile of human-made art. I've seen lots of attempts in many different ways, but Something Is Missing. Now, I definitely think that if machine-tattooing takes off (and if it i can make someone money, it'll take off, don't sweat it) it will create an entire new tier of tattooing as well as an entirely new aesthetic approach to it. Which is great! I am entirely sure they will be able to do things in the realm of machine tattoos you physically cannot do by hand, and you will get truly original works out of it.
An example I think that is germane is is electronic music. You can get a computer to generate extremely convincing symphonic (or whatever kind of analog) music; that's not in question, as much as how convincing it is to whose ears. I doubt I'd be able to tell the difference between a cutting-edge purely electronic orchestra and a real one with a headphone test, because I'm not trained to do that. But I think there's a hard limit to how convincing it can be set by the human/machine barrier. Otherwise, the real art of electronic music comes out when the medium is treated as its own and not a simulacrum of a different medium.
So there may be people who want a Real Artist's Handmade Tattoo without spending the money and they go and get a machine one of a Real Artist's Handmade Tattoo art reference fed into it and it will look okay but it will be ... off. Just the same way it would look ... off if they took a really good artist's drawing to a really not-good tattooer and said "I want this." You'll get something like the thing you asked for, but in no way will you get the thing you actually want.
But then again, this might be one of those "high price of developed taste" things where when you develop an aesthetic appreciation for a kind of art, you end up seeing the crappier parts a lot more glaringly.
posted by griphus at 10:02 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
I have really and truly never seen, in person, a deceptively good computer-generated facsimile of human-made art. I've seen lots of attempts in many different ways, but Something Is Missing. Now, I definitely think that if machine-tattooing takes off (and if it i can make someone money, it'll take off, don't sweat it) it will create an entire new tier of tattooing as well as an entirely new aesthetic approach to it. Which is great! I am entirely sure they will be able to do things in the realm of machine tattoos you physically cannot do by hand, and you will get truly original works out of it.
An example I think that is germane is is electronic music. You can get a computer to generate extremely convincing symphonic (or whatever kind of analog) music; that's not in question, as much as how convincing it is to whose ears. I doubt I'd be able to tell the difference between a cutting-edge purely electronic orchestra and a real one with a headphone test, because I'm not trained to do that. But I think there's a hard limit to how convincing it can be set by the human/machine barrier. Otherwise, the real art of electronic music comes out when the medium is treated as its own and not a simulacrum of a different medium.
So there may be people who want a Real Artist's Handmade Tattoo without spending the money and they go and get a machine one of a Real Artist's Handmade Tattoo art reference fed into it and it will look okay but it will be ... off. Just the same way it would look ... off if they took a really good artist's drawing to a really not-good tattooer and said "I want this." You'll get something like the thing you asked for, but in no way will you get the thing you actually want.
But then again, this might be one of those "high price of developed taste" things where when you develop an aesthetic appreciation for a kind of art, you end up seeing the crappier parts a lot more glaringly.
posted by griphus at 10:02 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
There is/will definitely be a certain market for this. I spent some time just yesterday in one of NYC's posher tattoo parlors where the going rate is $400/hour (I kid not). While I was there at least several people came in, inquired about flash books (and were reasonably kindly told that this wasn't a place with flashbooks but they were welcome to browse the artists digital portfolios) and left, seemingly somewhat disappointed that they were not able to get an on-the-spot piece out of a pre-determined selection.
Asking if this will replace incredibly skilled artisans is just silly and missing the point - it would seem that most tattoos I see on the street every day could easily be replicated at the same level of quality or higher with a computer. My two questions are: who will operate/design the machines (in the same way im suspicious of the teenagers at claires operating the patently unhygienic piercing guns, I would be very curious about the training and competency of the tattoo printer operator)? and, I would think from a business-viability standpoint, how does this shift affect the liability for when something inevitably goes wrong?
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 10:04 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
Asking if this will replace incredibly skilled artisans is just silly and missing the point - it would seem that most tattoos I see on the street every day could easily be replicated at the same level of quality or higher with a computer. My two questions are: who will operate/design the machines (in the same way im suspicious of the teenagers at claires operating the patently unhygienic piercing guns, I would be very curious about the training and competency of the tattoo printer operator)? and, I would think from a business-viability standpoint, how does this shift affect the liability for when something inevitably goes wrong?
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 10:04 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
no one I know who is very fond of getting tattoos is anywhere near rich (lower-middle class at best
But tattooing simply isn't very class or identity based anymore, and it's getting less so by the day. It has been amazing to watch the changes in culture around body art and modification that have occurred, almost without comment, in huge portions of the English speaking world over the last 20 years.
posted by howfar at 10:05 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
But tattooing simply isn't very class or identity based anymore, and it's getting less so by the day. It has been amazing to watch the changes in culture around body art and modification that have occurred, almost without comment, in huge portions of the English speaking world over the last 20 years.
posted by howfar at 10:05 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is fascinating. (Even though I couldn't watch the video. Despite having a lot of tattooed skin including my entire left arm, I can't comfortably watch the process.)
But while I think there could be a market for this, I don't see it replacing the tattoo artist. When I get a tattoo, yes of course it's about the end result. But I really enjoy the experience of being in a shop/studio, working with the artist to develop the piece, alternating between chatting with them and staring off into space while they work. Despite the fact that tattoos are painful, the act of getting them is a kind of self care for me. (Even my favorite "walk-ins available" tattoo shop has a really chill vibe and cool people, and the artists will customize colors, size, and placement if you're choosing flash off the wall. I recognize not all shops are like that, though.)
Also, good artists respond and adapt their design on the fly to the peculiarities of your body, which I don't really think a computer could ever do well. Adjusting their design to moles, discolorations, scars, where your skin folds in a joint, that kind of stuff. Heck, the artist who did my sleeve free-handed half of the design in sharpie on my arm rather than drawing it out beforehand, fitting different elements in and adjusting them to the shape of my arm and our conversation in that moment.
I wouldn't trade those kinds of experiences for the most precise tattoo in the world.
posted by misskaz at 10:21 AM on August 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
But while I think there could be a market for this, I don't see it replacing the tattoo artist. When I get a tattoo, yes of course it's about the end result. But I really enjoy the experience of being in a shop/studio, working with the artist to develop the piece, alternating between chatting with them and staring off into space while they work. Despite the fact that tattoos are painful, the act of getting them is a kind of self care for me. (Even my favorite "walk-ins available" tattoo shop has a really chill vibe and cool people, and the artists will customize colors, size, and placement if you're choosing flash off the wall. I recognize not all shops are like that, though.)
Also, good artists respond and adapt their design on the fly to the peculiarities of your body, which I don't really think a computer could ever do well. Adjusting their design to moles, discolorations, scars, where your skin folds in a joint, that kind of stuff. Heck, the artist who did my sleeve free-handed half of the design in sharpie on my arm rather than drawing it out beforehand, fitting different elements in and adjusting them to the shape of my arm and our conversation in that moment.
I wouldn't trade those kinds of experiences for the most precise tattoo in the world.
posted by misskaz at 10:21 AM on August 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
Perhaps self-driving cars could have these built in, and you could get some new sleeves on the way to a party?
posted by blue_beetle at 10:29 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by blue_beetle at 10:29 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
they do all have aesthetic preferences that would mean they'd still be going to artists than machines.
Well, I mean they'll be going to artists with tattoo machines, unless it's all super trad. or stick-and-poke.
I would really disagree, or at least I think that logic is something like "a printer can print out a more consistent picture than a person can do by hand." It's true, but you get into weird philosophical territory there where what is the difference between an original piece or art and a copy? And, like, there's at least a half-dozen art movements I can name that explore this territory,
But I think the "mechanized art is art" theory has certainly won. No one remembers when photographs weren't, "art", Andy Warhol is still one of the most famous artists in American History, and all those old Flemish masters used optics. The idea of something done, "by hand" is itself a myth. Even pre history man traced.
We're apes that rely on tools. Robots are nothing new, it's just one step of abstraction.
posted by alex_skazat at 10:30 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Well, I mean they'll be going to artists with tattoo machines, unless it's all super trad. or stick-and-poke.
I would really disagree, or at least I think that logic is something like "a printer can print out a more consistent picture than a person can do by hand." It's true, but you get into weird philosophical territory there where what is the difference between an original piece or art and a copy? And, like, there's at least a half-dozen art movements I can name that explore this territory,
But I think the "mechanized art is art" theory has certainly won. No one remembers when photographs weren't, "art", Andy Warhol is still one of the most famous artists in American History, and all those old Flemish masters used optics. The idea of something done, "by hand" is itself a myth. Even pre history man traced.
We're apes that rely on tools. Robots are nothing new, it's just one step of abstraction.
posted by alex_skazat at 10:30 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Yesterday I spent 25 minutes trying to install a windshield wiper.
This is so ridiculously off-topic but that made me laugh and reminded me of a story. About a year ago my mom and I are headed out on a road trip in light rain and I decided to stop at the auto parts store to buy new windshield wipers. The nice salesman proceeded to install them for me and as I started to drive off they were making this godawful racket and not working at clearing the windshield, like, at all. I turned around and reparked and reentered the store to notify him and he said, "Oh, not to worry! You just have to run them for a minute or so, they'll loosen up." Being a complete automobile-related numbskull that sounded perhaps reasonable? The hell do I know? So I walked back out, got back in the driver's seat and proceeded to sit there for like 3 or 4 minutes running these stupid, ineffective, noisy wipers. Nothing seemed to be getting better. After much deliberation (seriously, are we sure I'm not just a complete and utter moron who doesn't know how to run her windshield wipers?) I walked back inside and insisted, "Yeah, uh, I really think something is wrong, I swear..." So he followed me out the door, lifted a wiper off the windshield and with a sheepish expression proceeded to take off the clear plastic guards he had mistakenly left on both of the blades. He then leaned over and said to us through the open window, "Good day, ladies, and we shall never speak of this again."
posted by bologna on wry at 10:31 AM on August 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
This is so ridiculously off-topic but that made me laugh and reminded me of a story. About a year ago my mom and I are headed out on a road trip in light rain and I decided to stop at the auto parts store to buy new windshield wipers. The nice salesman proceeded to install them for me and as I started to drive off they were making this godawful racket and not working at clearing the windshield, like, at all. I turned around and reparked and reentered the store to notify him and he said, "Oh, not to worry! You just have to run them for a minute or so, they'll loosen up." Being a complete automobile-related numbskull that sounded perhaps reasonable? The hell do I know? So I walked back out, got back in the driver's seat and proceeded to sit there for like 3 or 4 minutes running these stupid, ineffective, noisy wipers. Nothing seemed to be getting better. After much deliberation (seriously, are we sure I'm not just a complete and utter moron who doesn't know how to run her windshield wipers?) I walked back inside and insisted, "Yeah, uh, I really think something is wrong, I swear..." So he followed me out the door, lifted a wiper off the windshield and with a sheepish expression proceeded to take off the clear plastic guards he had mistakenly left on both of the blades. He then leaned over and said to us through the open window, "Good day, ladies, and we shall never speak of this again."
posted by bologna on wry at 10:31 AM on August 12, 2016 [9 favorites]
Yeah, this is like, the least appealing thing and I've been scratching my head for a while trying to think of how this could be at all appealing. Like, if you want a perfectly geometric tattoo it could be good for that, and maybe for people who are overwhelmed by the novelty?
I couldn't see this getting much further than that. As a person whose skin is being slowly covered in tattoos this looks to me like getting your ear pierced at Claire's, like, clearly the worst way to get it done. Like, the process of getting a tattoo requires a degree of trust, it's intimate because someone is going to be stabbing you with needles for a little while (at least). Like, I was so terrified getting my first tattoo, like, the whole process, and my artist was extremely good, she was warm and professional and considerate. It was really fantastic and we took my first piece and extended it up my entire arm and a single session turned into a two year thing. A machine like this can't do that. It would be so cold and impersonal.
Also, yeah, you can't twitch with this. You can't shift or move around or anything. An artist can react extremely quick to anything. There's a reason these people are being strapped down, which looks super appealing. I'll echo everything misskaz said because it's right on the money.
posted by Neronomius at 10:39 AM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
I couldn't see this getting much further than that. As a person whose skin is being slowly covered in tattoos this looks to me like getting your ear pierced at Claire's, like, clearly the worst way to get it done. Like, the process of getting a tattoo requires a degree of trust, it's intimate because someone is going to be stabbing you with needles for a little while (at least). Like, I was so terrified getting my first tattoo, like, the whole process, and my artist was extremely good, she was warm and professional and considerate. It was really fantastic and we took my first piece and extended it up my entire arm and a single session turned into a two year thing. A machine like this can't do that. It would be so cold and impersonal.
Also, yeah, you can't twitch with this. You can't shift or move around or anything. An artist can react extremely quick to anything. There's a reason these people are being strapped down, which looks super appealing. I'll echo everything misskaz said because it's right on the money.
posted by Neronomius at 10:39 AM on August 12, 2016 [5 favorites]
I think the whole "people will still want to pay for the artist" discussion is missing the point a bit. Sure, this will let you do tattoos of memes you download off the internet, but more importantly, it'll decouple the art of creating a tattoo design from the craft of getting that design onto skin reliably, so it'll allow a lot more cool designers and artists who don't have the time to spend years learning how to operate primitive, hand-operated machines that are crazily sensitive to pressure, angle, and speed. That will expand the range of possibilities, not limit it. Lots of artists who eke out a living right now on the internet taking commissions will have a new market to cater to. Artists won't be limited by being where the customers are, so artists can live and work where ever they want, but make custom designs for people in other countries. This is a Big Deal, there are tattoo artists I'd definitely travel to get a piece by, if I had the money and they had the appointments available.
And, if the machines can take over the low-end market for tattoos, that'll probably be good for everyone. If you can take a portrait of someone, run it through some AI filter like Prisma does to get it into a style suitable for a tattoo (black and gray, pointilist, pinup, cartoonish, whatever), and then get that reliably put on your skin, you'll have something that's a huge step up from this horrible shit. For every artist who does really cool stuff by hand, draws the design directly on the skin, and makes that just perfect, there are a hundred bad "artists" who botch the simplest of jobs, insist on adding tacky stuff to their clients' tattoos, or just fuck things up in a myriad ways.
And, it'll be perfect for people like me, who are control freaks and want to design our own tattoos. I did both my designs myself, although the second one was actually tattooed by a guy who's now a pretty well known visual artist, and I'll definitely also design my next tattoo myself. I'd love to have a guarantee that the design will go on my skin perfectly, with completely straight lines and uniform fills, every little imperfection in the ones I have bugs me every time I see it.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 10:45 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
And, if the machines can take over the low-end market for tattoos, that'll probably be good for everyone. If you can take a portrait of someone, run it through some AI filter like Prisma does to get it into a style suitable for a tattoo (black and gray, pointilist, pinup, cartoonish, whatever), and then get that reliably put on your skin, you'll have something that's a huge step up from this horrible shit. For every artist who does really cool stuff by hand, draws the design directly on the skin, and makes that just perfect, there are a hundred bad "artists" who botch the simplest of jobs, insist on adding tacky stuff to their clients' tattoos, or just fuck things up in a myriad ways.
And, it'll be perfect for people like me, who are control freaks and want to design our own tattoos. I did both my designs myself, although the second one was actually tattooed by a guy who's now a pretty well known visual artist, and I'll definitely also design my next tattoo myself. I'd love to have a guarantee that the design will go on my skin perfectly, with completely straight lines and uniform fills, every little imperfection in the ones I have bugs me every time I see it.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 10:45 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
I know somebody who would be proud that we're creating the world he envisioned.
“Our sentence does not sound severe. The law which a condemned man has violated is inscribed on his body with the harrow. This Condemned Man, for example,” and the Officer pointed to the man, “will have inscribed on his body, ‘Honour your superiors.’”posted by Kylio at 10:48 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
…. The Traveler wanted to raise various questions, but after looking at the Condemned Man he merely asked, “Does he know his sentence?” “No,” said the Officer. He wished to get on with his explanation right away, but the Traveler interrupted him: “He doesn’t know his own sentence?” “No,” said the Officer once more. He then paused for a moment, as if he was asking the Traveler for a more detailed reason for his question, and said, “It would be useless to give him that information. He experiences it on his own body.”
I get mine every 7 years to commemorate the years on the planet. I think about them for three years before I commit. I think this is great for words and symbols, but for complex art pieces I agree- not a thing.
As I was walking the dog yesterday a young man stopped me and complimented mine. He then proceeded to show me his. The person that did it decided to free hand it midway through. It had not ended well for him, and it was a simple pentagram.
Automate to end bad tatts?
posted by LuckyMonkey21 at 10:49 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
As I was walking the dog yesterday a young man stopped me and complimented mine. He then proceeded to show me his. The person that did it decided to free hand it midway through. It had not ended well for him, and it was a simple pentagram.
Automate to end bad tatts?
posted by LuckyMonkey21 at 10:49 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
I have really and truly never seen, in person, a deceptively good computer-generated facsimile of human-made art. I've seen lots of attempts in many different ways, but Something Is Missing.
I know you specify "in person", but would The Next Rembrandt (FPP) count?It's a bit of a cheat in that it 3d-printed the paint in order to simulate brushstrokes, but what if they built a robot to actually make the brush strokes (which seems a lot closer to what's happening here... as it's still a needle injecting ink under skin).
I appreciate the potential for separating the artist from the craftsman here, the same way that 3D printing can allow people to sculpt their visions without having to learn how to physically work with wax or clay. I'm going to be excited to see the kinds of tattoos that machines make possible that wouldn't otherwise be doable by hand.
posted by sparklemotion at 10:55 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
I know you specify "in person", but would The Next Rembrandt (FPP) count?It's a bit of a cheat in that it 3d-printed the paint in order to simulate brushstrokes, but what if they built a robot to actually make the brush strokes (which seems a lot closer to what's happening here... as it's still a needle injecting ink under skin).
I appreciate the potential for separating the artist from the craftsman here, the same way that 3D printing can allow people to sculpt their visions without having to learn how to physically work with wax or clay. I'm going to be excited to see the kinds of tattoos that machines make possible that wouldn't otherwise be doable by hand.
posted by sparklemotion at 10:55 AM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
> I'd love to have a guarantee that the design will go on my skin perfectly, with completely straight lines and uniform fills
I don't know how this could ever be guaranteed, since the medium the design is going on is full of built-in imperfections, and that's even before we get to acknowledging that different people's skin will react differently to different inks.
As a tattooed person, I can see the appeal of machines like this under certain circumstances, but I am always going to have more trust in a skilled artist's ability to translate a 2-D design onto the imperfect and highly variable 3-D that is my body.
posted by rtha at 11:19 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I don't know how this could ever be guaranteed, since the medium the design is going on is full of built-in imperfections, and that's even before we get to acknowledging that different people's skin will react differently to different inks.
As a tattooed person, I can see the appeal of machines like this under certain circumstances, but I am always going to have more trust in a skilled artist's ability to translate a 2-D design onto the imperfect and highly variable 3-D that is my body.
posted by rtha at 11:19 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
I don't know how this could ever be guaranteed, since the medium the design is going on is full of built-in imperfections
If only there were some way for computers to recognize and adapt for variable 3D shapes.
I mean, these technologies are absolutely in their infancy, but the path seems reasonably clear towards: take input file from artist (perhaps as a texture map applied to an ideal 3D anatomic region like a limb or belly), scan 3D contours of customer's target tattoo region, convert tattoo from ideal 3D shape to actual 3D shape, apply.
The ink reaction is a little different, but I could still see TattooBot 9000 choosing appropriate test patches in the tattoo region, applying swatches with InkSetA, rescanning to observe results and switching to InkSetB, C, D, etc as necessary. Better yet - observe results constantly over application of tattoo and adapt as necessary where skin changes warrant (maybe part of the tattoo is over scar tissue).
posted by sparklemotion at 11:31 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
If only there were some way for computers to recognize and adapt for variable 3D shapes.
I mean, these technologies are absolutely in their infancy, but the path seems reasonably clear towards: take input file from artist (perhaps as a texture map applied to an ideal 3D anatomic region like a limb or belly), scan 3D contours of customer's target tattoo region, convert tattoo from ideal 3D shape to actual 3D shape, apply.
The ink reaction is a little different, but I could still see TattooBot 9000 choosing appropriate test patches in the tattoo region, applying swatches with InkSetA, rescanning to observe results and switching to InkSetB, C, D, etc as necessary. Better yet - observe results constantly over application of tattoo and adapt as necessary where skin changes warrant (maybe part of the tattoo is over scar tissue).
posted by sparklemotion at 11:31 AM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
There is a loose parallel to the art print world, in this discussion. Consider:
An Artist, who is also a Printmaker, printing her/his image by hand.
An Artist who has a professional Printmaker (also artist) print the image by hand for them.
An Artist who has a Printer print a large run of his/her image off of some kind of automated printing press.
One Artist
Artist + Artist
Artist + technician (Printers: no hate mail please! I love you!)
We already have tattoo artists tattooing their own work. And we have tattoo artists tattooing other artists work. Now we will have other artists having technicians tattoo their work.
And tattoo technicians' skills will be as valuable as that of the pro printer. Unfortunately you'll also get Kinko's Tattoos popping up!
Aside: Kinko's print employee once asked my wife, "Do you know what is 'Magenta'? " (with a hard G no less)
I agree that the hand-application of the tattoo will still be preferable, in the same way that I prefer a hand printed japanese print to a mass-produced offset print poster. But technology advances... ten years ago I would have never hung a digital print on my walls, now a very high-quality giclee print on watercolor paper or canvas looks absolutely gorgeous and in some cases almost indistinguishable from the original.
posted by Kabanos at 11:32 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
An Artist, who is also a Printmaker, printing her/his image by hand.
An Artist who has a professional Printmaker (also artist) print the image by hand for them.
An Artist who has a Printer print a large run of his/her image off of some kind of automated printing press.
One Artist
Artist + Artist
Artist + technician (Printers: no hate mail please! I love you!)
We already have tattoo artists tattooing their own work. And we have tattoo artists tattooing other artists work. Now we will have other artists having technicians tattoo their work.
And tattoo technicians' skills will be as valuable as that of the pro printer. Unfortunately you'll also get Kinko's Tattoos popping up!
Aside: Kinko's print employee once asked my wife, "Do you know what is 'Magenta'? " (with a hard G no less)
I agree that the hand-application of the tattoo will still be preferable, in the same way that I prefer a hand printed japanese print to a mass-produced offset print poster. But technology advances... ten years ago I would have never hung a digital print on my walls, now a very high-quality giclee print on watercolor paper or canvas looks absolutely gorgeous and in some cases almost indistinguishable from the original.
posted by Kabanos at 11:32 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
the legendary esquilax: "In the future you'll probably have the same divide that you see with other creative industries: the masses who want tattoos will use the Tat-O-Matic at a store where you pick your design out of a library on a touch screen or upload one you've brought, the rich will be served by a small community of tattoo artists who do expensive custom work."
Just like furniture. Essentially the only people with houses filled with hand made furniture are a subset of the 1% and people who are or have a family member who is capable of making it personally. This completely despite the fact that hand made custom furniture is capable of being customized and sized to exactly fulfill a need and as such can be functionally superior aside from cost to factory furniture.
Neronomius: "I couldn't see this getting much further than that. As a person whose skin is being slowly covered in tattoos this looks to me like getting your ear pierced at Claire's, like, clearly the worst way to get it done."
A person with a significant number of tattoos isn't the target market. But most of the people I know with tattoos have only a few, and often only one. Many people with tattoos have nothing but flash. Heck the three tattoos one of the guys I work with has are outline versions of selected NPS map symbols.
Neronomius: "Also, yeah, you can't twitch with this. You can't shift or move around or anything. An artist can react extremely quick to anything."
This machine is only the earliest of the first generation. An obvious improvement would be as a first step in the process to apply a grid of UV ink registration marks; probably sprayed on using a mask or applied with a stamp. You can then incorporate a camera into the tattoo head to compensate for movement and even stretching of the skin. Touch ups can be aligned to the existing art work.
posted by Mitheral at 11:48 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
Just like furniture. Essentially the only people with houses filled with hand made furniture are a subset of the 1% and people who are or have a family member who is capable of making it personally. This completely despite the fact that hand made custom furniture is capable of being customized and sized to exactly fulfill a need and as such can be functionally superior aside from cost to factory furniture.
Neronomius: "I couldn't see this getting much further than that. As a person whose skin is being slowly covered in tattoos this looks to me like getting your ear pierced at Claire's, like, clearly the worst way to get it done."
A person with a significant number of tattoos isn't the target market. But most of the people I know with tattoos have only a few, and often only one. Many people with tattoos have nothing but flash. Heck the three tattoos one of the guys I work with has are outline versions of selected NPS map symbols.
Neronomius: "Also, yeah, you can't twitch with this. You can't shift or move around or anything. An artist can react extremely quick to anything."
This machine is only the earliest of the first generation. An obvious improvement would be as a first step in the process to apply a grid of UV ink registration marks; probably sprayed on using a mask or applied with a stamp. You can then incorporate a camera into the tattoo head to compensate for movement and even stretching of the skin. Touch ups can be aligned to the existing art work.
posted by Mitheral at 11:48 AM on August 12, 2016 [4 favorites]
As a tattooed person, I can see the appeal of machines like this under certain circumstances, but I am always going to have more trust in a skilled artist's ability to translate a 2-D design onto the imperfect and highly variable 3-D that is my body.
exactly. also you don't to shoot the shit with a machine while you're getting tattooed which is honestly half the fun sometimes
posted by burgerrr at 11:58 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
exactly. also you don't to shoot the shit with a machine while you're getting tattooed which is honestly half the fun sometimes
posted by burgerrr at 11:58 AM on August 12, 2016 [3 favorites]
The machine also won't compliment you on how still you're being and how little you're whimpering when its going over your ribs.
posted by griphus at 12:08 PM on August 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by griphus at 12:08 PM on August 12, 2016 [7 favorites]
Exceptional_Hubris, if you don't mind my asking, which parlor was that?
posted by holborne at 12:10 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by holborne at 12:10 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
a lungful of dragon: "That music is perfect, in some way I can't put my finger on."
It tattooed itself into my eardrums.
posted by Splunge at 12:21 PM on August 12, 2016
It tattooed itself into my eardrums.
posted by Splunge at 12:21 PM on August 12, 2016
holborne - I was at Bang Bang on Broome.
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 12:30 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Exceptional_Hubris at 12:30 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Graffiti artists have been dealing with this controversy for some years now (20?). Traditionally the artist will create their piece on paper before translating it to the wall, but the advent of Photoshop and consumer 3D modeling software has brought technology into a historically manual art. Insiders will argue, they will coexist, and we will all benefit.
posted by rhizome at 12:55 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 12:55 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
This really does look like it would eventually be a cheap way to get shitty tattoos, which is what most people want. But that market also supports the artists so they can make good ones. This, to me, is sort of a microcosm of how we're destroying everything.
posted by bongo_x at 1:12 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by bongo_x at 1:12 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
I see the arguments that all it takes is enough computing power to be able to make all the adjustments that a real artist makes, but for me personally there is something viscerally disturbing about the idea of getting a tattoo from a machine.
posted by misskaz at 1:35 PM on August 12, 2016
posted by misskaz at 1:35 PM on August 12, 2016
At least it looks like it'll be a while before it can be used on necks and faces.
posted by rhizome at 1:35 PM on August 12, 2016
posted by rhizome at 1:35 PM on August 12, 2016
This looks amazing to me, because it enables a new dimension of tattooing. (And sure, lets anyone get crappy flash cheaply and reliably.) Given that it adapts to the contours (the nub next to the needle looks like it measures height of "canvas"?), it's getting straighter, finer, and more even lines than any human artist. I'd love something totally geometric and precise (that hopefully ages well) over a watercolor wash that, yes, is going to change as the skin ages. Living/nonliving, organic/inorganic. Something in this vein.
posted by supercres at 1:42 PM on August 12, 2016
posted by supercres at 1:42 PM on August 12, 2016
Not only does it do tattoos, but the Bene Gesserit use it to administer the Gom Jabbar test.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 1:51 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 1:51 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yesterday I spent 25 minutes trying to install a windshield wiper.
This is so ridiculously off-topic but that made me laugh and reminded me of a story.
It was one of those situations where I'm overthinking the diagram that is provided and I'm struggling to remove this small clip and then slide this thing into that thing and finally at the end, I took a deep breath, stopped looking at the diagram and just examined the actual wiper and thought: "How would this clip on to that?" And then after a few minutes of calming down, something clicked in my brain.
I like to think of myself as a fairly intelligent person, but the installation of this wiper blade was very humbling. So I can only imagine myself trying to fiddle with a 3D printer/tattoo machine. No thanks. I'll place my trust in another human for the time being.
posted by Fizz at 2:21 PM on August 12, 2016
This is so ridiculously off-topic but that made me laugh and reminded me of a story.
It was one of those situations where I'm overthinking the diagram that is provided and I'm struggling to remove this small clip and then slide this thing into that thing and finally at the end, I took a deep breath, stopped looking at the diagram and just examined the actual wiper and thought: "How would this clip on to that?" And then after a few minutes of calming down, something clicked in my brain.
I like to think of myself as a fairly intelligent person, but the installation of this wiper blade was very humbling. So I can only imagine myself trying to fiddle with a 3D printer/tattoo machine. No thanks. I'll place my trust in another human for the time being.
posted by Fizz at 2:21 PM on August 12, 2016
I kind of love this, just as another tattooing possibility, but it makes me cringe to see that guy eat up that valuable real estate with three little unrelated tattoos.
posted by fiercecupcake at 2:54 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by fiercecupcake at 2:54 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Ctrl-F "party dog". Nothing? Oh how quickly we forget....
posted by Hal Mumkin at 3:03 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Hal Mumkin at 3:03 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
i don't think it would be possible to program a machine to make party dog look appropriately shitty. that's pure human genius, baby
posted by burgerrr at 3:15 PM on August 12, 2016
posted by burgerrr at 3:15 PM on August 12, 2016
It may be too late to note that these guys are French new media artists and this is conceptual art, not something they seem to intend to commodify.
posted by cmoj at 3:26 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by cmoj at 3:26 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
This is a chance to preserve the dignity of women and their native appearance, before breast cancer surgery. The women can have very clean digital images of their nipples taken, and saved. Then a machine like this can reproduce them as tattoos. There are tattoo artists who are very good at this already, but with a photograph, and a three D printer that makes tattoos, with a little soft focus / hard focus shift this could be awesome.
posted by Oyéah at 3:28 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Oyéah at 3:28 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
alternating between chatting with them and staring off into space while they work
When I got my tattoo I alternated between, "motherfuckmotherfuckmotherfuckthathurts," and, "people actually enjoy this?"
However, if there was less pain I'd definitely get more tattoos.
I've always been a little uncomfortable with the concept of tattoos after hearing a Holocaust survivor's story and having them show us their tattoo in 10-year-old me's social studies class.
posted by bendy at 4:20 PM on August 12, 2016
When I got my tattoo I alternated between, "motherfuckmotherfuckmotherfuckthathurts," and, "people actually enjoy this?"
However, if there was less pain I'd definitely get more tattoos.
I've always been a little uncomfortable with the concept of tattoos after hearing a Holocaust survivor's story and having them show us their tattoo in 10-year-old me's social studies class.
posted by bendy at 4:20 PM on August 12, 2016
Less pain is definitely also a possibility. On one hand, if a tattoo robot was really fast and efficient, it could probably use a much thinner needle (and maybe several needles in parallel) which should both produce a more even result, better/faster healing, and less pain.
On the other hand, it'd be easier to use numbing agents like BLT to reduce pain if people wanted that. It's hard to use them for tattoos currently because they don't last long enough, can't be applied to very large areas, and can make the skin clammy and hard to work on. But with a tattooing robot, you could theoretically spray on very small amounts just on the area to be worked on next, maybe of a numbing agent that works for a very short time and is very mild, there'd be fewer side effects and a smaller total dose.
Yeah, lots of people fetishize the the pain as part of the ritual or whatever. But plenty of people, me included, are mostly interested in the end result, which is decorated skin. I didn't particularly feel the pain was unbearable or anything when I got my tattoos, but I wouldn't have minded a slight reduction, especially on the inside of the upper arm, which does sting a bit.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 4:41 PM on August 12, 2016
On the other hand, it'd be easier to use numbing agents like BLT to reduce pain if people wanted that. It's hard to use them for tattoos currently because they don't last long enough, can't be applied to very large areas, and can make the skin clammy and hard to work on. But with a tattooing robot, you could theoretically spray on very small amounts just on the area to be worked on next, maybe of a numbing agent that works for a very short time and is very mild, there'd be fewer side effects and a smaller total dose.
Yeah, lots of people fetishize the the pain as part of the ritual or whatever. But plenty of people, me included, are mostly interested in the end result, which is decorated skin. I didn't particularly feel the pain was unbearable or anything when I got my tattoos, but I wouldn't have minded a slight reduction, especially on the inside of the upper arm, which does sting a bit.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 4:41 PM on August 12, 2016
exactly. also you don't to shoot the shit with a machine while you're getting tattooed which is honestly half the fun sometimes
Actually, a Siri-like agent programmed to emulate a stereotypical tattoo artist would be hilarious to talk to, I think. You could even choose personalities. Getting a Koi tattoo? Here, talk to some old Japanese guy who will tell you about the Yakuza he's worked on. Harley-Davidson logo? Get ready to talk about meth. Whatever other tattoo? Egomaniacal sociopaths who lord over their apprentices and criticize your design choices. Etc. I'm sure that'd be a popular part of the experience, like role playing a dangerous situation.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 4:45 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Actually, a Siri-like agent programmed to emulate a stereotypical tattoo artist would be hilarious to talk to, I think. You could even choose personalities. Getting a Koi tattoo? Here, talk to some old Japanese guy who will tell you about the Yakuza he's worked on. Harley-Davidson logo? Get ready to talk about meth. Whatever other tattoo? Egomaniacal sociopaths who lord over their apprentices and criticize your design choices. Etc. I'm sure that'd be a popular part of the experience, like role playing a dangerous situation.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 4:45 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
Now that I think about it, you could probably reduce pain considerably by stuttering the movement in sync with the tattoo needle, so that the print head, as it were, is completely still while the needle goes in and back out, and then moves while the needle is not in the skin. A typical tattoo machine is adjustable from something like 1-50 jabs per second, so there's no way a human artist can move the machine only while the needle is not in the skin on anything but the very lowest speeds. The lowest speeds are usually used for very thin and sensitive skin, so as to not tear the skin too much, but tearing could theoretically be completely eliminated even at quite high speeds with a machine like this. Combined with a thinner needle, that would make for faster, more precise tattoos that hurt a lot less and heal a lot faster.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 4:53 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 4:53 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
All you people arguing about whether a machine printed tattoo is as good as a trained artist's tattoo are 100,000,000% missing the point.
The really cool thing this enables isn't the reproducible tattoos you're all complaining about. The cool thing it enables is amateur tattoo artists and new styles of tattoo art. Speaking as a person with several self-designed geometric tattoos that just aren't precise enough, I would kill for a service where I could upload a vector file to print into my skin. If the price I have to pay for that is seeing lots of cookie cutter mall tattoos, well tattoo flash for drunk people has always existed.
Guess I'm finally gonna get my DEATH FROM ABOVE tattoo in the most authentic way possible.
When I clicked the link in this comment I was almost certain I was going to see this.
posted by cirrostratus at 9:23 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
The really cool thing this enables isn't the reproducible tattoos you're all complaining about. The cool thing it enables is amateur tattoo artists and new styles of tattoo art. Speaking as a person with several self-designed geometric tattoos that just aren't precise enough, I would kill for a service where I could upload a vector file to print into my skin. If the price I have to pay for that is seeing lots of cookie cutter mall tattoos, well tattoo flash for drunk people has always existed.
Guess I'm finally gonna get my DEATH FROM ABOVE tattoo in the most authentic way possible.
When I clicked the link in this comment I was almost certain I was going to see this.
:format(jpeg):mode_rgb():quality(40)/discogs-images/R-602429-1423805358-7383.jpeg.jpg){kind=link}
posted by cirrostratus at 9:23 PM on August 12, 2016 [2 favorites]
I'm not understanding the part about how this will make more precise tattoos work. It's still skin and ink. Is anyone familiar with how tattoos work and age?
posted by bongo_x at 10:29 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by bongo_x at 10:29 PM on August 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
bongo_x, yes, definitely, but people's hands are generally not perfect. My tattoos were both done by good artists, but they both have imperfections that are not due to "skin and ink", but just that the human hand isn't too good at tracing perfect lines all the time.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 11:11 AM on August 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 11:11 AM on August 15, 2016 [1 favorite]
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Guess I'm finally gonna get my DEATH FROM ABOVE tattoo in the most authentic way possible.
posted by griphus at 8:29 AM on August 12, 2016 [6 favorites]