She’s never ever cute or soft or scared of you.
August 17, 2016 12:21 PM Subscribe
"Her hair is done. Her makeup is flawless; her coat, luxurious. She’s single...We love her and we hate her in equal measure. We feel that way because she revels in being all the things that we are told we aren’t allowed to be."
It’s wonderful and terrible to think about having that much power, because as we all know, that much power makes you a villainess.
Pretty sure the bad thing is trying to kill people but okay.
posted by asteria at 12:53 PM on August 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
Pretty sure the bad thing is trying to kill people but okay.
posted by asteria at 12:53 PM on August 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
From the title and quote, I expected this to be another thought piece on why people don't love Hillary Clinton.
posted by ga$money at 12:56 PM on August 17, 2016 [13 favorites]
posted by ga$money at 12:56 PM on August 17, 2016 [13 favorites]
Pretty sure the bad thing is trying to kill people but okay.
In Disney movies and fantasy novels yes, but most women who seek power and display all these other characteristics in the real world do not try to kill people. Interesting how we only tell stories about women in which those two things are linked.
posted by sunset in snow country at 1:03 PM on August 17, 2016 [27 favorites]
In Disney movies and fantasy novels yes, but most women who seek power and display all these other characteristics in the real world do not try to kill people. Interesting how we only tell stories about women in which those two things are linked.
posted by sunset in snow country at 1:03 PM on August 17, 2016 [27 favorites]
From the title and quote, I expected this to be another thought piece on why people don't love Hillary Clinton.
Except it said "luxurious coat," and then I was hoping it was fanfic about Hillary as a horse
posted by gusandrews at 1:11 PM on August 17, 2016 [19 favorites]
Except it said "luxurious coat," and then I was hoping it was fanfic about Hillary as a horse
posted by gusandrews at 1:11 PM on August 17, 2016 [19 favorites]
I just pictured my cat.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 1:14 PM on August 17, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 1:14 PM on August 17, 2016 [16 favorites]
I like this. And it reminds me of why, when it comes to Game of Thrones, that despite how badly she's written , I kind of want Cersei to win in the end. I want to see her, Ms. "I have no redeeming qualities" on the Iron Throne, surrounded by the severed heads pf Sansa, Daeneris, Arya and the rest. I kind of want that final total "Fuck you everyone who wanted a conventional fantasy epic. "
posted by happyroach at 1:18 PM on August 17, 2016 [19 favorites]
posted by happyroach at 1:18 PM on August 17, 2016 [19 favorites]
They also get all the best songs.
posted by Wretch729 at 1:23 PM on August 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Wretch729 at 1:23 PM on August 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
Interesting how we only tell stories about women in which those two things are linked..
Sure but like some commentators on the site mention, the writer seems more interested in the style of the villains rather than making a point
idk thinkpieces about Disney characters are their own subgenre and this one isn't saying anything new to me. Maybe I've read too many.
Or maybe I would have preferred some Hillary-as-a-cat fanfic.
Ms. "I have no redeeming qualities" on the Iron Throne, surrounded by the severed heads pf Sansa, Daeneris, Arya and the rest
I love Cersei but she would not want to be Ms. She has a lot of internalized misogyny and her "feminism" as it were is focused on advancing herself. A "Ms" to her is a fool or a loser who couldn't get a man and she doesn't see herself as either. She doesn't want to remarry because then she will no longer be tied to Robert and the power that came with being Queen Consort and she's not dumb enough to give that up to be a lady of Highgarden or wherever.
And considering Daenerys "My enemies will die screaming" Targaryen is all about seeking power and killing people when needed, not sure she's the right counterpoint. Plenty of fans seem to think she's already the villain as is.
posted by asteria at 1:30 PM on August 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Sure but like some commentators on the site mention, the writer seems more interested in the style of the villains rather than making a point
idk thinkpieces about Disney characters are their own subgenre and this one isn't saying anything new to me. Maybe I've read too many.
Or maybe I would have preferred some Hillary-as-a-cat fanfic.
Ms. "I have no redeeming qualities" on the Iron Throne, surrounded by the severed heads pf Sansa, Daeneris, Arya and the rest
I love Cersei but she would not want to be Ms. She has a lot of internalized misogyny and her "feminism" as it were is focused on advancing herself. A "Ms" to her is a fool or a loser who couldn't get a man and she doesn't see herself as either. She doesn't want to remarry because then she will no longer be tied to Robert and the power that came with being Queen Consort and she's not dumb enough to give that up to be a lady of Highgarden or wherever.
And considering Daenerys "My enemies will die screaming" Targaryen is all about seeking power and killing people when needed, not sure she's the right counterpoint. Plenty of fans seem to think she's already the villain as is.
posted by asteria at 1:30 PM on August 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
A lot of the "Villainesses" also look like they have sex, which is not mentioned in the article. Or more pointedly, they fuck. Maybe a little, maybe a lot, but it's far far easier to imagine them downing 6 G&Ts and banging someone to a screeching orgasm than it is Cinderella or Snow White. The perfect innocent virgins ultimately succeed and flourish, and the villains, the incorrect, the fallen women are defeated. Disney and all who follow their reasoning should be destroyed.
posted by Zack_Replica at 1:38 PM on August 17, 2016 [11 favorites]
posted by Zack_Replica at 1:38 PM on August 17, 2016 [11 favorites]
Puts me in mind of The School for Good and Evil, which I read last summer on the recommendation of a niece.
posted by wildblueyonder at 1:40 PM on August 17, 2016
posted by wildblueyonder at 1:40 PM on August 17, 2016
>In Disney movies and fantasy novels yes, but most women who seek power and display all these other characteristics in the real world do not try to kill people. Interesting how we only tell stories about women in which those two things are linked.
I might be misreading what you mean by this, but I'm fairly sure in fiction that seeking power and trying to kill people are linked regardless of sex. I'm thinking her of Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, The Godfather and, well, pretty much the majority of stories containing either villains or the quest for power.
posted by Jacks Dented Yugo at 1:53 PM on August 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
I might be misreading what you mean by this, but I'm fairly sure in fiction that seeking power and trying to kill people are linked regardless of sex. I'm thinking her of Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, The Godfather and, well, pretty much the majority of stories containing either villains or the quest for power.
posted by Jacks Dented Yugo at 1:53 PM on August 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
Power is lovely and absolute power is absolutely lovely.
posted by janey47 at 2:03 PM on August 17, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by janey47 at 2:03 PM on August 17, 2016 [8 favorites]
This article... speaks to me.
posted by Space Kitty at 2:12 PM on August 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Space Kitty at 2:12 PM on August 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
idk thinkpieces about Disney characters are their own subgenre
there is too. much. stuff. on. the internet
posted by cotton dress sock at 2:33 PM on August 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
there is too. much. stuff. on. the internet
posted by cotton dress sock at 2:33 PM on August 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
I love Cersei but she would not want to be Ms.
OK, point.
And considering Daenerys "My enemies will die screaming" Targaryen is all about seeking power and killing people when needed, not sure she's the right counterpoint. Plenty of fans seem to think she's already the villain as is.
I'm generous minded- I'm perfectly happy to have more than one villainess in a story. Of course I'm a bit impatient with Danearys in that while she has a wonderful body count and lust for power, she just doesn't have enough self-aware selfishness. Cersei, if asked if she's the villainess could honestly come back worth "Well yeah, doi."
posted by happyroach at 2:34 PM on August 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
OK, point.
And considering Daenerys "My enemies will die screaming" Targaryen is all about seeking power and killing people when needed, not sure she's the right counterpoint. Plenty of fans seem to think she's already the villain as is.
I'm generous minded- I'm perfectly happy to have more than one villainess in a story. Of course I'm a bit impatient with Danearys in that while she has a wonderful body count and lust for power, she just doesn't have enough self-aware selfishness. Cersei, if asked if she's the villainess could honestly come back worth "Well yeah, doi."
posted by happyroach at 2:34 PM on August 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Were I all powerful, I'd have John Waters read this aloud.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 2:35 PM on August 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by lazycomputerkids at 2:35 PM on August 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
For a kid's villainess who is actually just about power + being awesome + personal style, here is the delightful Lord Dominator from Wander Over Yonder, singing "I'm the Bad Guy"
posted by emjaybee at 2:54 PM on August 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by emjaybee at 2:54 PM on August 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Is this making anyone else miss The Toast so, so hard?
posted by ourobouros at 2:59 PM on August 17, 2016 [8 favorites]
posted by ourobouros at 2:59 PM on August 17, 2016 [8 favorites]
A lot of the "Villainesses" also look like they have sex, which is not mentioned in the article.
I understand that there's some kind of "villains' kids go to high school" nonsense show from Disney that features Yzma's son, which suggests to me that Kronk was not merely decorative.
posted by Countess Elena at 3:11 PM on August 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
I understand that there's some kind of "villains' kids go to high school" nonsense show from Disney that features Yzma's son, which suggests to me that Kronk was not merely decorative.
posted by Countess Elena at 3:11 PM on August 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Daenerys "My enemies will die screaming" Targaryen
Let us not forget the first of her enemies to meet this fate was her own brother, after he said he would let every Dothraki warrior rape her if it would get him the throne. Dany's badness was forged in a cauldron of abuse. Cersei's badness was bred in.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:15 PM on August 17, 2016
Let us not forget the first of her enemies to meet this fate was her own brother, after he said he would let every Dothraki warrior rape her if it would get him the throne. Dany's badness was forged in a cauldron of abuse. Cersei's badness was bred in.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:15 PM on August 17, 2016
I'm not sure it was bred in... she seems to be the product of a lifetime of undereducation and being ignored and maybe spoiled. Patriarchy, basically, at least the face of it that's been turned toward her.
posted by amtho at 3:27 PM on August 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by amtho at 3:27 PM on August 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
I really identified w this piece and just want to add that none of these qualities seem to be appreciated by anyone.
posted by bleep at 3:47 PM on August 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by bleep at 3:47 PM on August 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Good point, amtho. It's more like Cersei spent her life watching the guys have all the fun, and envy and opportunity made her the villainess. Whereas with Dany it was exile, rape, attempted assassination, and betrayal by her most trusted advisor.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:48 PM on August 17, 2016
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:48 PM on August 17, 2016
It's more like Cersei spent her life watching the guys have all the fun, and envy and opportunity made her the villainess.
I think it's being expected to be nothing but a brood mare to a really fucking gross old guy, no matter what she wanted. As long as she produced male heirs, she could be pithed for all they cared.
I mean put this book in the hands of VC Andrews- a confined childhood, uncaring patents, forced marriage to a monster, and the non-zero chance of dying in childbirth (But it's OK! The heir survived! ). Very Gothic. You can't blame her for wanting a few obstacles cleared away.
posted by happyroach at 4:03 PM on August 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
I think it's being expected to be nothing but a brood mare to a really fucking gross old guy, no matter what she wanted. As long as she produced male heirs, she could be pithed for all they cared.
I mean put this book in the hands of VC Andrews- a confined childhood, uncaring patents, forced marriage to a monster, and the non-zero chance of dying in childbirth (But it's OK! The heir survived! ). Very Gothic. You can't blame her for wanting a few obstacles cleared away.
posted by happyroach at 4:03 PM on August 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
I mean put this book in the hands of VC Andrews
THE EYE BLEACH IT DOES NOTHING
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:06 PM on August 17, 2016
THE EYE BLEACH IT DOES NOTHING
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:06 PM on August 17, 2016
It's more like Cersei spent her life watching the guys have all the fun, and envy and opportunity made her the villainess.
That, and she really doesn't understand how to deal with people nearly as well as she thinks she does. Maybe it's because she didn't have a maternal figure to train her? This is a huge difference between her and, for example, Margaery Tyrell, or even Sansa Stark -- both had very present, very intelligent mother figures (I'm referring to Margaery's grandmother).
posted by amtho at 5:34 PM on August 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
That, and she really doesn't understand how to deal with people nearly as well as she thinks she does. Maybe it's because she didn't have a maternal figure to train her? This is a huge difference between her and, for example, Margaery Tyrell, or even Sansa Stark -- both had very present, very intelligent mother figures (I'm referring to Margaery's grandmother).
posted by amtho at 5:34 PM on August 17, 2016 [1 favorite]
Let us not forget the first of her enemies to meet this fate was her own brother, after he said he would let every Dothraki warrior rape her if it would get him the throne.
To be fair, Viserys brought it on himself by being a demanding PITA who had no respect for the Dothraki, and basically expected them to instantly put themselves under his command when he literally had nothing to bring to the table.
posted by Autumnheart at 7:36 PM on August 17, 2016
To be fair, Viserys brought it on himself by being a demanding PITA who had no respect for the Dothraki, and basically expected them to instantly put themselves under his command when he literally had nothing to bring to the table.
posted by Autumnheart at 7:36 PM on August 17, 2016
Mod note: I love y'alls enthusiasm for GoT but maybe let's not lapse wholly into Cersei analysis here.
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:54 PM on August 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 7:54 PM on August 17, 2016 [5 favorites]
Were I all powerful, I'd have John Waters read this aloud.
Maybe I'm a bit cranky just now, but no. This essay, about villainesses and how female evil is presented, does not need to be read aloud by a man, even John Waters.
Personally, I'd like to hear Shoreh Aghdashloo read it.
posted by Lexica at 8:21 PM on August 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
Maybe I'm a bit cranky just now, but no. This essay, about villainesses and how female evil is presented, does not need to be read aloud by a man, even John Waters.
Personally, I'd like to hear Shoreh Aghdashloo read it.
posted by Lexica at 8:21 PM on August 17, 2016 [3 favorites]
It should be mentioned that Yzma from The Emperor's New Groove is a kind of redemption of the villainess, as not only is she a great character, but if you trace it back she (in the movie at least) actually has decent motives, considering that Kuzco, before redemption, is a real jerk that nobody loves and pretty much deserves to be poisoned, and its only a mislabelling that results in him being bellama'd.
posted by JHarris at 11:47 PM on August 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by JHarris at 11:47 PM on August 17, 2016 [4 favorites]
This is what gets me with how mythology is treated. You've got all sorts of incredible, strong, powerful, independent women in myths around the world, but what do we get told to us? The fairy tales with "good girls" and "bad women". When was the last time you saw a retelling of any story – any! – of Diana and her nymphs? Diana, the goddess who swore never to marry? Or the goddess of wisdom, weaving, and more? (Minerva/Athena) Is there anything even remotely related to these stories being told now? (There is actually kinda-sorta one in popular culture amongst athletic women, who speak of an "Athena type", but it's not popularized in wider society.) I'm using Greco-Roman but any culture has powerful women in its mythology. Ours is an aberration, one in which "powerful women" are "villainesses" and even though we know there's something wrong with that, well, where are the stories with respected powerful women? The popular ones with big budgets. Where the woman isn't an exception, she's there because of course there are respected, wise women with experience who occasionally mess up (Greco-Roman goddesses also messed up).
I grok this piece because it's writing about a silence without necessarily realizing it's a silence... because that silence is so profound.
I highly recommend reading collections of fairy tales that are NOT "selections" or "retellings" but as faithful to their sources as possible. Ditto collections of myths. The sad part is you really have to look (I know of what I speak; I did my Masters on this).
Protip: use massive grains of salt with any collection of myths collected by a white man who says "well I didn't talk to the women because hahahaha duh borrriiiing" or, the even creakier version, "I collected a few myths from women, but I edited them because they tell some wack stuff, ya know." (When I was able to find versions of these "wack" myths retold by the women themselves, well, wouldn't ya know, it ended up being stories of powerful women.)
posted by fraula at 5:12 AM on August 18, 2016 [9 favorites]
I grok this piece because it's writing about a silence without necessarily realizing it's a silence... because that silence is so profound.
I highly recommend reading collections of fairy tales that are NOT "selections" or "retellings" but as faithful to their sources as possible. Ditto collections of myths. The sad part is you really have to look (I know of what I speak; I did my Masters on this).
Protip: use massive grains of salt with any collection of myths collected by a white man who says "well I didn't talk to the women because hahahaha duh borrriiiing" or, the even creakier version, "I collected a few myths from women, but I edited them because they tell some wack stuff, ya know." (When I was able to find versions of these "wack" myths retold by the women themselves, well, wouldn't ya know, it ended up being stories of powerful women.)
posted by fraula at 5:12 AM on August 18, 2016 [9 favorites]
This is what gets me with how mythology is treated. You've got all sorts of incredible, strong, powerful, independent women in myths around the world, but what do we get told to us? The fairy tales with "good girls" and "bad women". When was the last time you saw a retelling of any story – any! – of Diana and her nymphs? Diana, the goddess who swore never to marry? Or the goddess of wisdom, weaving, and more? (Minerva/Athena) Is there anything even remotely related to these stories being told now?
To be fair, Wonder Woman is not named Diana for nothing. And Xena was definitely some kind of thing (wikipedia just told me that she started out a villain -- interesting). The sad thing about both of those examples is that they are notable for being different outside the norm of what we'd expect from hollywood/major television.
I do think we are getting a nice fun crop of live action villainess types right now, which could be a reaction backlash to the white-male-antihero cliche, but is more likely because studios are wondering how they can continue to cash in on the antihero cliche. Cersei, Claire Underwood, Olivia Pope, Quinn Perkins, Annalise Keating, Alex Vause, Vee.
Up with this sort of thing!
posted by sparklemotion at 11:25 AM on August 18, 2016
To be fair, Wonder Woman is not named Diana for nothing. And Xena was definitely some kind of thing (wikipedia just told me that she started out a villain -- interesting). The sad thing about both of those examples is that they are notable for being different outside the norm of what we'd expect from hollywood/major television.
I do think we are getting a nice fun crop of live action villainess types right now, which could be a reaction backlash to the white-male-antihero cliche, but is more likely because studios are wondering how they can continue to cash in on the antihero cliche. Cersei, Claire Underwood, Olivia Pope, Quinn Perkins, Annalise Keating, Alex Vause, Vee.
Up with this sort of thing!
posted by sparklemotion at 11:25 AM on August 18, 2016
Fraula - any titles you'd suggest in particular?
posted by girlpublisher at 5:56 AM on August 20, 2016
posted by girlpublisher at 5:56 AM on August 20, 2016
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