The feel-good gospel of the pastor made famous by Kimye and Bieber
August 27, 2016 6:26 AM Subscribe
Pastor Rich and the Ministry of Fun "We live in the age of hipster Christianity, a time of multiplying ministries with one-word names, such as Status, Mosaic, Reality, and, most famously, Hillsong, an Australian Pentecostal megachurch whose New York City branch is led by Rich's friend and fellow pastor to the stars Carl Lentz. Most leave untouched fundamentalism's core convictions—opposition to abortion and sex outside of marriage (which is between a man and a woman) and also to false gods (meaning all of them but their own)—but they rebrand the presentation. Rich is only the most mediagenic of whatComplex has described as this "new wave of stylish pastors," just as a young Billy Graham was before him and Billy Sunday before him, stripping away the Bible's subtler teachings to draw the masses. Rich is the latest avatar of a tradition common to Christianity and capitalism, the so-called new-and-improved. His new is burnished with vestiges of the artisanal; "vintage," Rich likes to say, meaning that which is artfully rendered to reference an idea of the old. It's like he's sampling from a song he's never actually heard."
"Pastor Rich" was inevitable.
posted by Bob Regular at 6:43 AM on August 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by Bob Regular at 6:43 AM on August 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
The part where the writer calls the church the most "completely empty" he's ever seen felt like the sickest burn, and what's worse, I'm not sure Pastor Rich would get why that's so terrible.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:45 AM on August 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:45 AM on August 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
So, has anyone started the betting pool for this guy's first major scandal?
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:51 AM on August 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:51 AM on August 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
I've now read the article, but I'm still offended by the pull quote lumping Billy Graham in with these clowns, particularly in his prime Graham was nothing like them, The Offence of the Cross - Dr. Billy Graham (1958)
posted by Blasdelb at 7:10 AM on August 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
posted by Blasdelb at 7:10 AM on August 27, 2016 [6 favorites]
So like, instead of crackers and grape juice you get grilled asparagus and Cristal? Sounds awesome!
posted by oceanjesse at 7:17 AM on August 27, 2016
posted by oceanjesse at 7:17 AM on August 27, 2016
It's remarkable how they knew that the Laundromat ministry would look embarrassing. I experienced contact embarrassment. People just need their clothes washed, man.
Comforting the comfortable is indeed an ancient tradition in the clergy, if less hallowed. Pastor Rich reminded me of a particular fashionable preacher in the work of Anthony Trollope.
His work in the vineyard, he said, had fallen lately among the wealthy and nobly born; and though he would not say that he was entitled to take glory on that account, still he gave thanks daily in that he had been enabled to give his humble assistance towards the running of a godly life to those who, by their example, were enabled to have so wide an effect upon their poorer fellow-creatures. He knew well how difficult it was for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. They had the highest possible authority for that. But Scripture never said that the camel,—which, as he explained it, was simply a thread larger than ordinary thread,—could not go through the needle's eye. The camel which succeeded, in spite of the difficulties attending its exalted position, would be peculiarly blessed ...
posted by Countess Elena at 7:18 AM on August 27, 2016 [17 favorites]
Comforting the comfortable is indeed an ancient tradition in the clergy, if less hallowed. Pastor Rich reminded me of a particular fashionable preacher in the work of Anthony Trollope.
His work in the vineyard, he said, had fallen lately among the wealthy and nobly born; and though he would not say that he was entitled to take glory on that account, still he gave thanks daily in that he had been enabled to give his humble assistance towards the running of a godly life to those who, by their example, were enabled to have so wide an effect upon their poorer fellow-creatures. He knew well how difficult it was for a camel to go through the eye of a needle. They had the highest possible authority for that. But Scripture never said that the camel,—which, as he explained it, was simply a thread larger than ordinary thread,—could not go through the needle's eye. The camel which succeeded, in spite of the difficulties attending its exalted position, would be peculiarly blessed ...
posted by Countess Elena at 7:18 AM on August 27, 2016 [17 favorites]
Sweet, I'm so happy that Elmer Gantry has become a real person.
posted by Literaryhero at 7:21 AM on August 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by Literaryhero at 7:21 AM on August 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
That morning, Vous was having its monthly volunteer event, "I Love My City," at a men's homeless shelter, but the homeless men were nowhere to be seen. Their absence was practical—Vous needed room for the 150 or so volunteers who came from downtown condos or drove in from the suburbs—but it was also spiritual.
It felt more "authentic" to be in a shelter, said a Vous volunteer, and at the same time—surrounded by hipsters—"safe."
~~~~
Naturally, all these people should be embarrassed but won't be.
It does make me reconsider - I've worked pretty hard to get to a place where I've been all "well, the youth are into Kim and Kanye and videos and emoji and so there must be some more meaning and value in those things than it seems to me, and all the people involved in the enormous Kardashian enterprise and the many similar ones must be smarter than I give them credit for being"...and that may still be true, but if folks want to work this particular disgusting kind of religious scam, I no longer feel obligated to make excuses for them in my head.
~~~
But still, it's a sign that christianity is dying - fewer and fewer people are religious to begin with, and I guess what goes along with that is that religion itself becomes more and more hollowed out and phony. So we can all take comfort from that, at least.
posted by Frowner at 7:25 AM on August 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
It felt more "authentic" to be in a shelter, said a Vous volunteer, and at the same time—surrounded by hipsters—"safe."
~~~~
Naturally, all these people should be embarrassed but won't be.
It does make me reconsider - I've worked pretty hard to get to a place where I've been all "well, the youth are into Kim and Kanye and videos and emoji and so there must be some more meaning and value in those things than it seems to me, and all the people involved in the enormous Kardashian enterprise and the many similar ones must be smarter than I give them credit for being"...and that may still be true, but if folks want to work this particular disgusting kind of religious scam, I no longer feel obligated to make excuses for them in my head.
~~~
But still, it's a sign that christianity is dying - fewer and fewer people are religious to begin with, and I guess what goes along with that is that religion itself becomes more and more hollowed out and phony. So we can all take comfort from that, at least.
posted by Frowner at 7:25 AM on August 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
(I mean Kim/Kanye/etc as social media omnipresences, not Kanye as a musican, just to clarify. Still pretty gross that they are associated with this creeper.)
posted by Frowner at 7:28 AM on August 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Frowner at 7:28 AM on August 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I'm still offended by the pull quote lumping Billy Graham in with these clowns...
Yes, he was much worse.
posted by TedW at 7:37 AM on August 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
Yes, he was much worse.
posted by TedW at 7:37 AM on August 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
"Pastor Rich" was inevitable.
Maybe, but he's no Creflo A. Dollar
posted by TedW at 7:40 AM on August 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
Maybe, but he's no Creflo A. Dollar
posted by TedW at 7:40 AM on August 27, 2016 [10 favorites]
Blasdelb if you don't think Billy Graham was a sex symbol you never met somebody like my grandma. She practically drooled when she was staring at him on tv. I was six, I had no idea what sex was, and I knew something was deeply weird there.
Pastor Rich has nothing on this guy.
Be suspicious of any minister who spends as much time working out as Brad Pitt.
posted by bukvich at 7:48 AM on August 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Pastor Rich has nothing on this guy.
Be suspicious of any minister who spends as much time working out as Brad Pitt.
posted by bukvich at 7:48 AM on August 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
well, the youth are into Kim and Kanye and videos and emoji and so there must be some more meaning and value in those things than it seems to me
Most of the youth see these things as entertaining distractions. There are--and have always been--people who take things too seriously, but for the most part, we really can't infer much about their values and beliefs from these things.
I think that's comforting.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:51 AM on August 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
Most of the youth see these things as entertaining distractions. There are--and have always been--people who take things too seriously, but for the most part, we really can't infer much about their values and beliefs from these things.
I think that's comforting.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 7:51 AM on August 27, 2016 [2 favorites]
So, has anyone started the betting pool for this guy's first major scandal?
This guy thinking he is a true follower of the homeless dude who said to give all your money to the poor seems like scandal enough.
posted by emjaybee at 8:00 AM on August 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
This guy thinking he is a true follower of the homeless dude who said to give all your money to the poor seems like scandal enough.
posted by emjaybee at 8:00 AM on August 27, 2016 [19 favorites]
Most of the youth see these things as entertaining distractions. There are--and have always been--people who take things too seriously, but for the most part, we really can't infer much about their values and beliefs from these things.
That's very true. The actual behavior of celebrities really doesn't have that much to do with how people view them or what meaning they have in popular culture, which is precisely why no one really cares if they're cavorting around with phonies like this pastor.
I try to be kind of techno-utopian, which goes against my nature, and to assume that mass media and celebrity have, in the end, more benefits than drawbacks. And they really probably do, up to and including Kim/Kanye/etc, now that I think about it. All this stuff with the televangelists is private and doesn't have much to do with what they represent in the culture, even though it's rather depressing. But then, people are often rather depressing when you know too much about them.
posted by Frowner at 8:03 AM on August 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
That's very true. The actual behavior of celebrities really doesn't have that much to do with how people view them or what meaning they have in popular culture, which is precisely why no one really cares if they're cavorting around with phonies like this pastor.
I try to be kind of techno-utopian, which goes against my nature, and to assume that mass media and celebrity have, in the end, more benefits than drawbacks. And they really probably do, up to and including Kim/Kanye/etc, now that I think about it. All this stuff with the televangelists is private and doesn't have much to do with what they represent in the culture, even though it's rather depressing. But then, people are often rather depressing when you know too much about them.
posted by Frowner at 8:03 AM on August 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Be suspicious of any minister who spends as much time working out as Brad Pitt.
Back in my powerlifting days, I was fascinated by the Christian Crossfit/"reps for Jesus", perfection-of-the-physical-body-as-form-of-worship crowd.
I should probably put together an FPP on that one of those days.
posted by Itaxpica at 8:33 AM on August 27, 2016 [22 favorites]
Back in my powerlifting days, I was fascinated by the Christian Crossfit/"reps for Jesus", perfection-of-the-physical-body-as-form-of-worship crowd.
I should probably put together an FPP on that one of those days.
posted by Itaxpica at 8:33 AM on August 27, 2016 [22 favorites]
For the first decade of my ministry I wanted, more than anything, to believe and endorse the Christ of Culture - the belief that all of history is revelatory and the piety of the historic church was simply the defiant posture of a defeated cultural regime. I lived in intentional family in cooperative housing in three different cities, broke bread with new monastics and baptized every little tiny american cultural artifact and tchotchke that fell into my lap.
Feels really good, man.
But it is a form of spiritual anemia and it leads to a host of religious cancers - chiefly autolatry.
And now it's all coming to a boil with Donald Trump, the end-game of all idolatry is the pronouncement by the idolaters, "Yes, we worship these idols. Put away your God and come and worship our gods or we will kill you and your God!"
These men worship strange gods and each of them, men and gods, are an outgrowth of the enterprise of American cultural production and the cult of celebrity.
I keep seeing people writing, "See, this is the death of the church in America!" and if this is the case, then whatever it is that is dying should please die quickly.
I have almost entirely retreated into congregationalism, a puritan piety, and the radical localism of the English separatists. The most terrifying spiritual battles that take away my sleep at night are between individual human beings that I know and love and the demons that stalk them.
Perhaps Christ alone can transform culture - but if this is the case I am only interested in the six or seven city blocks that immediately surround the parish that I currently serve.
And if all of Christendom and Constantine's own empire pass away into dust and the giant churches melt like glaciers and the water of secularism rises up there will be at least one little Christian church, an iceberg, a little steeple, out at sea, watching for doves.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 8:35 AM on August 27, 2016 [24 favorites]
Feels really good, man.
But it is a form of spiritual anemia and it leads to a host of religious cancers - chiefly autolatry.
And now it's all coming to a boil with Donald Trump, the end-game of all idolatry is the pronouncement by the idolaters, "Yes, we worship these idols. Put away your God and come and worship our gods or we will kill you and your God!"
These men worship strange gods and each of them, men and gods, are an outgrowth of the enterprise of American cultural production and the cult of celebrity.
I keep seeing people writing, "See, this is the death of the church in America!" and if this is the case, then whatever it is that is dying should please die quickly.
I have almost entirely retreated into congregationalism, a puritan piety, and the radical localism of the English separatists. The most terrifying spiritual battles that take away my sleep at night are between individual human beings that I know and love and the demons that stalk them.
Perhaps Christ alone can transform culture - but if this is the case I am only interested in the six or seven city blocks that immediately surround the parish that I currently serve.
And if all of Christendom and Constantine's own empire pass away into dust and the giant churches melt like glaciers and the water of secularism rises up there will be at least one little Christian church, an iceberg, a little steeple, out at sea, watching for doves.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 8:35 AM on August 27, 2016 [24 favorites]
Most of what you need to know about Hillsong is on their wikipedia page (under controversies).
They have their televangelist show on around dawn on sunday morning. The preaching is nothing I recognize as Christianity. It used to be immediately followed by the Teletubbies, which made for some bizarre tv to come home to still spaced out from saturday night.
posted by adept256 at 8:36 AM on August 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
They have their televangelist show on around dawn on sunday morning. The preaching is nothing I recognize as Christianity. It used to be immediately followed by the Teletubbies, which made for some bizarre tv to come home to still spaced out from saturday night.
posted by adept256 at 8:36 AM on August 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Maybe all religion, like all politics, is personal, Baby Balrog.
I know whatever religious urges I have are not satisfied for long with sweeping discussions of the state of humanity; I have to be doing something concrete, even if it's just tithing and showing up to church and volunteering when I can.
I used to sit in the pews of my childhood church, in my uncomfortable good clothes, and twitch at everyone sitting around me passively receiving the Word, thinking "we should all get up, put our blue jeans on, and go help out at the homeless shelter." I mean, I was bored and young and had no concept of what it means to be middle-aged and crave a few hours of restful quiet in your week.
But I still think I wasn't wrong. We youth, at least, could have done that. Would have been more useful than discussing whether it was ok to go see R movies and have sexual thoughts.
I wonder what the turnover is in these churches. Surely there's not much spiritual sustenance being given there. People who don't want to be fed might as well stay home; people who do are going to be starved of it. And people like Brandon who actually seem to take Jesus' message as a guide are going to make everyone else uncomfortable, because nothing exposes fakery like a little bit of true belief.
(this isn't always good of course; nothing exposed the posturing of the Republican establishment like Tea Party/Trump followers who decided to make the dog whistles into airhorns)
posted by emjaybee at 9:07 AM on August 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
I know whatever religious urges I have are not satisfied for long with sweeping discussions of the state of humanity; I have to be doing something concrete, even if it's just tithing and showing up to church and volunteering when I can.
I used to sit in the pews of my childhood church, in my uncomfortable good clothes, and twitch at everyone sitting around me passively receiving the Word, thinking "we should all get up, put our blue jeans on, and go help out at the homeless shelter." I mean, I was bored and young and had no concept of what it means to be middle-aged and crave a few hours of restful quiet in your week.
But I still think I wasn't wrong. We youth, at least, could have done that. Would have been more useful than discussing whether it was ok to go see R movies and have sexual thoughts.
I wonder what the turnover is in these churches. Surely there's not much spiritual sustenance being given there. People who don't want to be fed might as well stay home; people who do are going to be starved of it. And people like Brandon who actually seem to take Jesus' message as a guide are going to make everyone else uncomfortable, because nothing exposes fakery like a little bit of true belief.
(this isn't always good of course; nothing exposed the posturing of the Republican establishment like Tea Party/Trump followers who decided to make the dog whistles into airhorns)
posted by emjaybee at 9:07 AM on August 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
The funny part is when some members of these kinds of congregations stumble over C.S. Lewis and fall instantly in love. The imperialist smugness, of course--but also some depth of thought and feeling, some aesthetic sophistication, some connection to a challenging tradition such as the megachurches never dreamed of. Or, as Waugh said (though decidedly not about Lewis's church): "No one had ever suggested to me that these quaint observances expressed a coherent philosophical system and intransigent historical claims."
posted by praemunire at 9:49 AM on August 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 9:49 AM on August 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
> still he gave thanks daily in that he had been enabled to give his humble assistance towards the running of a godly life to those who, by their example, were enabled to have so wide an effect upon their poorer fellow-creatures.
Ahhh, this, exactly.
Here's the shit of it: you don't even have to be a whited sepulchre like Pastor Wilkerson Jr to fall into this logic. Like, you could become this guy cause you like looking cool and feeling cool and knowing the cool people and having the best stuff, driven by nothing but vanity/venality. But you don't have to be vain or venal to fall into the trap.
After all, everyone knows that getting ahead and gaining influence, for whatever purpose, good purposes and bad, requires courting people who are by whatever standard the most well-connected people you can find — if you're playing the game rationally or whatever, the most efficient thing you can do is work to get the rich and popular on your side, because once you get them you get a bunch of their followers, too. This is the logic of "it's not what you know, it's who you know," and it is absolutely airtight. If you want to maximize your influence on the world, for whatever reason, you must get the people "enabled to have so wide an effect upon their poorer fellow-creatures" backing you. One Kardashian is worth more than thousands, maybe tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of homeless people. A church, or a political campaign, or a business that doesn't adopt this strategy is dead in the water against competition that does.
It is all, of course, evil, straightforwardly evil.
Here's the inimitable Slacktivist on why adopting the very efficient, very rational strategy of maximizing the effect of your interventions through pointing those interventions at the rich, connected, and popular is, from a Christian standpoint, perfectly anti-Christian. His proximal target is the allegedly Christian youth ministry Young Life, but the real target is the anti-Christian get-the-popular-on-your-side strategy as a whole.
is anyone else amused by how Wilkerson Jr's church is named "vous"? Wouldn't the "tu" form be more appropriate for a genuine Christian organization?
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 9:54 AM on August 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
Ahhh, this, exactly.
Here's the shit of it: you don't even have to be a whited sepulchre like Pastor Wilkerson Jr to fall into this logic. Like, you could become this guy cause you like looking cool and feeling cool and knowing the cool people and having the best stuff, driven by nothing but vanity/venality. But you don't have to be vain or venal to fall into the trap.
After all, everyone knows that getting ahead and gaining influence, for whatever purpose, good purposes and bad, requires courting people who are by whatever standard the most well-connected people you can find — if you're playing the game rationally or whatever, the most efficient thing you can do is work to get the rich and popular on your side, because once you get them you get a bunch of their followers, too. This is the logic of "it's not what you know, it's who you know," and it is absolutely airtight. If you want to maximize your influence on the world, for whatever reason, you must get the people "enabled to have so wide an effect upon their poorer fellow-creatures" backing you. One Kardashian is worth more than thousands, maybe tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of homeless people. A church, or a political campaign, or a business that doesn't adopt this strategy is dead in the water against competition that does.
It is all, of course, evil, straightforwardly evil.
Here's the inimitable Slacktivist on why adopting the very efficient, very rational strategy of maximizing the effect of your interventions through pointing those interventions at the rich, connected, and popular is, from a Christian standpoint, perfectly anti-Christian. His proximal target is the allegedly Christian youth ministry Young Life, but the real target is the anti-Christian get-the-popular-on-your-side strategy as a whole.
is anyone else amused by how Wilkerson Jr's church is named "vous"? Wouldn't the "tu" form be more appropriate for a genuine Christian organization?
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 9:54 AM on August 27, 2016 [12 favorites]
There are ministers who want to help the oppressed, and then there are those who want to play golf with the pharoah. < --- stolen from a sermon where I wondered Huh? The pharoah plays golf? It's like punching up / punching down .OR. comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable.
Photo of Billy Graham and Richard Nixon on golf course.
posted by bukvich at 10:33 AM on August 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
Photo of Billy Graham and Richard Nixon on golf course.
posted by bukvich at 10:33 AM on August 27, 2016 [4 favorites]
So, whatever this is, I blame neoliberalism?
posted by Apocryphon at 10:34 AM on August 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Apocryphon at 10:34 AM on August 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
But still, it's a sign that christianity is dying - fewer and fewer people are religious to begin with, and I guess what goes along with that is that religion itself becomes more and more hollowed out and phony. So we can all take comfort from that, at least.
Maybe in a certain segment, but it's important to realize that most coverage of individual religious organizations (other than, say, the RCC) are almost always one minute segment of immense faiths that number hundreds of millions in adherents. Pastor Rich and the Vous organization's outreach to the wealthy and powerful is but one group; doubtful that their existence has anything to do with Christians in the Global South. Though I do wonder what megachurches look like/will look like in China's coastal cities. Will they be even more ostentatious in new wealth.
I would like to see a followup article about Brandon's ministry. Maybe he'll go Apostle Paul and reshape the Richs' legacy.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:22 AM on August 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Maybe in a certain segment, but it's important to realize that most coverage of individual religious organizations (other than, say, the RCC) are almost always one minute segment of immense faiths that number hundreds of millions in adherents. Pastor Rich and the Vous organization's outreach to the wealthy and powerful is but one group; doubtful that their existence has anything to do with Christians in the Global South. Though I do wonder what megachurches look like/will look like in China's coastal cities. Will they be even more ostentatious in new wealth.
I would like to see a followup article about Brandon's ministry. Maybe he'll go Apostle Paul and reshape the Richs' legacy.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:22 AM on August 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
If I want to watch a preacher I always choose rootin' tootin' Robert Tilton.
Which is the one who swings an arm out to the congregation and they all fall down? Cuz that bullshit never gets old either.
posted by Ber at 12:28 PM on August 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Which is the one who swings an arm out to the congregation and they all fall down? Cuz that bullshit never gets old either.
posted by Ber at 12:28 PM on August 27, 2016 [3 favorites]
Emptiness..yes... this grosses me out so much. There was a minister in San Diego named Terry Cole Whittaker that had the same line "God wants me to have a Mercedes". It was called Prosperity Gospel, IIRC.
Bu these guys, totally pimping the homeless and poor angle while rubbing their money in everyone's face. How clueless are they? They must have that "Think Rich and Be Rich" philosophy in which the poor could be rich if only they would not only surrender to Christ but think good richy-rich thoughts. It reminds me of how many shelters in the past especially, would make religion a requirement to getting assistance. I have heard some homeless and addicted people say they didn't want the help if it required the sermons.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 2:07 PM on August 27, 2016
Bu these guys, totally pimping the homeless and poor angle while rubbing their money in everyone's face. How clueless are they? They must have that "Think Rich and Be Rich" philosophy in which the poor could be rich if only they would not only surrender to Christ but think good richy-rich thoughts. It reminds me of how many shelters in the past especially, would make religion a requirement to getting assistance. I have heard some homeless and addicted people say they didn't want the help if it required the sermons.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 2:07 PM on August 27, 2016
But still, it's a sign that christianity is dying this cartoon talks about that.
'Cultural Christianity' seriously irks me because it just pisses off people without your faith when you tell them how to live. Christian, you can't save people by making them 'look Christian'.
posted by freethefeet at 3:37 PM on August 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
I wonder if this is the Christian version of trickle-down economics? If we hang out with the big guys, then life will eventually end up better for everyone...
I went to Hillsong NYC recently, having heard of it from friends, and a few things struck me: first, I didn't meet anyone actually from the church. I'm assuming the guys on the stage, manning the bookstall and and the greeters were from Hillsong, but everyone I talked to was a visitor. Being searched, TSA fashion, on the way in was a first for a church service, too.
No-one on the stage, in their videos or in their promotional material looked over about 35, with the exception of the Australian founder. This is no country for old men, and at 61 I felt positively ancient.
And that may be because the music was shatteringly loud. I've done my share of rattling people's teeth with my bass playing over the years, but man... this was serious rock-concert-loud. I'd wager an SPL meter would peak over 100db. It definitely seemed a trifle excessive (to put it mildly), and to me, a church service where you can't hear yourself sing is a performance. I left when I could feel the bass drum vibrating my chest.
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 5:23 PM on August 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
I went to Hillsong NYC recently, having heard of it from friends, and a few things struck me: first, I didn't meet anyone actually from the church. I'm assuming the guys on the stage, manning the bookstall and and the greeters were from Hillsong, but everyone I talked to was a visitor. Being searched, TSA fashion, on the way in was a first for a church service, too.
No-one on the stage, in their videos or in their promotional material looked over about 35, with the exception of the Australian founder. This is no country for old men, and at 61 I felt positively ancient.
And that may be because the music was shatteringly loud. I've done my share of rattling people's teeth with my bass playing over the years, but man... this was serious rock-concert-loud. I'd wager an SPL meter would peak over 100db. It definitely seemed a trifle excessive (to put it mildly), and to me, a church service where you can't hear yourself sing is a performance. I left when I could feel the bass drum vibrating my chest.
posted by 43rdAnd9th at 5:23 PM on August 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
still he gave thanks daily in that he had been enabled to give his humble assistance towards the running of a godly life to those who, by their example, were enabled to have so wide an effect upon their poorer fellow-creatures.
Yes indeed, there's your Trickle-Down Spirituality. Old Saint Ronnie would approve.
I wonder what the turnover is in these churches. Surely there's not much spiritual sustenance being given there
Living on a spiritual basis, living in a Christlike manner, usually looks an awful lot like hard work and quiet, unglamorous service and fighting your own complacency.
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 6:13 PM on August 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
Yes indeed, there's your Trickle-Down Spirituality. Old Saint Ronnie would approve.
I wonder what the turnover is in these churches. Surely there's not much spiritual sustenance being given there
Living on a spiritual basis, living in a Christlike manner, usually looks an awful lot like hard work and quiet, unglamorous service and fighting your own complacency.
posted by Vic Morrow's Personal Vietnam at 6:13 PM on August 27, 2016 [5 favorites]
The Slacktivist Young Life story YCTAB posted above touched on the trickle-down aspect as well. "No, we don't necessarily reach out to the huddled masses, but we tell the cool people we do recruit to do so."
posted by rhizome at 9:14 PM on August 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 9:14 PM on August 27, 2016 [1 favorite]
Being searched, TSA fashion, on the way in was a first for a church service, too.
I remember being shocked NOT having my bag checked the first time that I went to a church. Growing up Jewish in NYC after 9/11, bag checks were a standard part of going to synagogue, especially on holidays.
posted by Itaxpica at 9:07 AM on August 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I remember being shocked NOT having my bag checked the first time that I went to a church. Growing up Jewish in NYC after 9/11, bag checks were a standard part of going to synagogue, especially on holidays.
posted by Itaxpica at 9:07 AM on August 28, 2016 [1 favorite]
I wonder what the virtues of humility and meekness even look like, in theory, in an environment like this. The normal answer is that churches sometimes cherry pick what they want to teach, but come on. Those virtues are pretty much impossible to ignore and claim you are doing justice to the historical intent of the Christian message.
posted by SpacemanStix at 7:27 PM on August 28, 2016
posted by SpacemanStix at 7:27 PM on August 28, 2016
I can't speak to this church. I can speak from my experience growing up in a conservative church during the 80s and the rise of fundamentalism. Humility and meekness are definitely taught from the pulpit. And they're definitely ignored in actual practice.
The church couldn't go directly against "The meek shall inherit the Earth" for obvious reasons. But there was an aggressiveness behind everything they did. Fundraising, proselytizing. Preachers and evangelists who would bang the pulpit and would get salaries high enough to live in the better part of town. They never said "God wants me to have a Cadillac" but if a caddy somehow fell into their laps, then it was no problem. "I earned this" or references to the story of Christ getting very expensive perfume poured over his feet. And there was heavy support for Reagan and his Cold War Revival militarism. No prosperity gospel per se, but who could deny God blessing some of the faithful with shitloads of cash?
Vous Church and this preacher probably make a lot of the same justifications: God has called me to minister to the rich & famous. After all, they need spiritual guidance just as much as the homeless. Sure, I have a nice home and a nice car and lots in the bank, but if God didn't want me to have it, he wouldn't have inspired the people to give so generously, or led the church board to approve such a high salary. When Jesus was talking ill of the rich, he wouldn't mean me because he's chosen to bless me with so much. And I need to publicize the church, and myself, and build a brand, and tightly manage our image in order to get God's word out. Have to wear expensive clothes in order to attract more people. After all, it's not really about me. It's about serving God and being a fit vessel for his purpose.
posted by honestcoyote at 10:21 PM on August 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
The church couldn't go directly against "The meek shall inherit the Earth" for obvious reasons. But there was an aggressiveness behind everything they did. Fundraising, proselytizing. Preachers and evangelists who would bang the pulpit and would get salaries high enough to live in the better part of town. They never said "God wants me to have a Cadillac" but if a caddy somehow fell into their laps, then it was no problem. "I earned this" or references to the story of Christ getting very expensive perfume poured over his feet. And there was heavy support for Reagan and his Cold War Revival militarism. No prosperity gospel per se, but who could deny God blessing some of the faithful with shitloads of cash?
Vous Church and this preacher probably make a lot of the same justifications: God has called me to minister to the rich & famous. After all, they need spiritual guidance just as much as the homeless. Sure, I have a nice home and a nice car and lots in the bank, but if God didn't want me to have it, he wouldn't have inspired the people to give so generously, or led the church board to approve such a high salary. When Jesus was talking ill of the rich, he wouldn't mean me because he's chosen to bless me with so much. And I need to publicize the church, and myself, and build a brand, and tightly manage our image in order to get God's word out. Have to wear expensive clothes in order to attract more people. After all, it's not really about me. It's about serving God and being a fit vessel for his purpose.
posted by honestcoyote at 10:21 PM on August 28, 2016 [2 favorites]
Wow. Thanks for posting this. I'm an Epscopalian, which means I differ in just about every respect than the Christianity part.
posted by persona au gratin at 2:40 AM on August 29, 2016
posted by persona au gratin at 2:40 AM on August 29, 2016
Christianity isn't dying. It's just some forms that are in the US and Western Europe. Unfortunately, it's the forms that have been a force for social good that are taking it on the chin.
posted by persona au gratin at 2:43 AM on August 29, 2016
posted by persona au gratin at 2:43 AM on August 29, 2016
And Fred Clark (slacktivist) is indeed terrific.
posted by persona au gratin at 2:48 AM on August 29, 2016
posted by persona au gratin at 2:48 AM on August 29, 2016
I wonder how Trump managed to get this far and then I read an article that shows me precisely how. Are there really that many people that lacking in... so much? I was going to say, in intelligence; but that's not the sum total of it.
What is missing in people that they so willingly and so overwhelming fall for bullshit artists, regardless of the arena? How can a modern-day person, with access to so much information and ability to apply that information to their daily life, not use every tool they can get their hands on to avoid falling prey to some of the oldest tricks in the book? I am well and truly boggled whenever I see proof that no matter what advances society makes, this shit can still happen.
Do those who fall prey to Rich (I love that his name is "Rich" BTW, in an extra irony garnish) and his ilk deserve what they get, if they find themselves caught up in it? It's really hard not to judge and I try to stay open-minded. But if someone gets caught up in a megachurch, i can't do much to avoid mentally writing them off. I'd have trouble trusting their judgement in all things.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 3:26 AM on August 29, 2016
What is missing in people that they so willingly and so overwhelming fall for bullshit artists, regardless of the arena? How can a modern-day person, with access to so much information and ability to apply that information to their daily life, not use every tool they can get their hands on to avoid falling prey to some of the oldest tricks in the book? I am well and truly boggled whenever I see proof that no matter what advances society makes, this shit can still happen.
Do those who fall prey to Rich (I love that his name is "Rich" BTW, in an extra irony garnish) and his ilk deserve what they get, if they find themselves caught up in it? It's really hard not to judge and I try to stay open-minded. But if someone gets caught up in a megachurch, i can't do much to avoid mentally writing them off. I'd have trouble trusting their judgement in all things.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 3:26 AM on August 29, 2016
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Who would Jesus wear?
posted by crazylegs at 6:42 AM on August 27, 2016 [10 favorites]