Why Dressing Your Age Is Bullshit (& Other Fashion Myths Debunked!)
September 3, 2016 7:13 AM Subscribe

At Refinery29, Stacy London (formerly of What Not to Wear) writes about what it means to dress your age as a middle-aged woman when you don't quite fit the conventional image of a middle-aged woman.
posted by kimberussell (84 comments total) 49 users marked this as a favorite

I enjoyed the article, as an older woman who dresses pretty much the way I want to, though at 65 I'm dealing with the fact that my shape has changed so much (despite being in excellent condition) that I can't even wear what she likes to wear. I'm thinking of going back to tutus and blinding prints.

HOWEVER:

"Sociobiologically speaking, in caveman days, if we could no longer bear children our use-value dropped sharply and inevitably." Actually (and we mostly didn't live in caves, thank you) older women in most societies, while perhaps not as desirable for sex, are the workers, the glue, the element that makes everything happen.

Yes, I have problems with sociobiological "caveman" explanations for stuff.
posted by Peach at 7:22 AM on September 3, 2016 [93 favorites]

I dress my Age. The Age is clearly post-contemporary cyberpunk dystopia.
posted by percor at 7:24 AM on September 3, 2016 [49 favorites]

I need to read it again. I got hung up on how because I'm married and a mom I'm boooooooooooring.
posted by Molly Razor at 7:28 AM on September 3, 2016 [25 favorites]

As an older woman who never married or had children I feel like I'm constantly getting the side-eye, so I loved this.
posted by maggiemaggie at 7:31 AM on September 3, 2016 [41 favorites]

People hate her gray streak?!?!
posted by Swisstine at 7:33 AM on September 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

I liked this. I realize that as a 40 y/o I'm half gravitating towards the idea of fashion for 40-somethings I somehow acquired when I was a kid ... and then when I put that stuff on and look in the mirror I think "Wait a minute. Is this really who I am?"

I'm a feminist with a job-not-a-career, no kids, no partner, worried about staying employable (in the eyes of sexist, ageist employers) as I age. How do I dress for that?
posted by bunderful at 7:38 AM on September 3, 2016 [33 favorites]

At 47, I'm finding that my trouser pockets are filled with fewer and fewer fucks.

They don't let our clothes have adequate fuck-holding pockets anyway so why even try.
posted by phunniemee at 7:38 AM on September 3, 2016 [152 favorites]

1. It helps to be beautiful and rich, as Jane Austen observes in Emma.

2. I thought that there was this whole other grandmother hypothesis - that women who are past childbearing age were actually an asset back on the veldt because they had a lot of knowledge of life stuff and had free time to take care of children. And that it is hypothesized that this is why women have such a long life after menopause - no reason not to evolve so that women are popping out kids to the very end, right? I mean, I'm skeptical of all that dawn-of-humanity stuff, but it's not as though the only explanation for the dawn of humanity is "women were useless and inferior except when giving birth".

Also, honestly, I blame agriculture and the rise of the state for patriarchy, not the veldt.
posted by Frowner at 7:39 AM on September 3, 2016 [55 favorites]

Omg I love this.
posted by dame at 8:01 AM on September 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

I skipped the byline by accident and was surprised halfway through to realize that it was Stacy. Frankly I watched every episode of the show that I could, but she really was all about sanding down the edges of the personal fashion styles of the (mostly) women who were on it. To be sure, some of those styles needed sanding down, and everyone should have a chance to learn how clothes fit and flatter, which is why I liked watching it. But I wouldn't have thought she'd come around to this point of view. She's much more self-aware than I would have thought, and I bet she'd be interested to learn that popular evo-psych is male supremacist bullshit.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:04 AM on September 3, 2016 [18 favorites]

On the one hand, I like what she's saying about not being married with kids at her age.

On the other hand...I don't want gravitas and to wear suits, darn it. I hate suits! I hate blazers! I don't want to wear black all day! I still want the foofy dresses and since I still look, act, and feel young, I don't think I should have to stop because technically I keep getting older.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:04 AM on September 3, 2016 [9 favorites]

On the other hand...I don't want gravitas and to wear suits, darn it. I hate suits! I hate blazers! I don't want to wear black all day! I still want the foofy dresses and since I still look, act, and feel young, I don't think I should have to stop because technically I keep getting older.

Then do that! That's what she's saying - wear what makes you feel like you, rather than what you're told a "woman of a certain age" should wear. For her, it's something different from what she wore ten and twenty years ago. For you it's not.
posted by tzikeh at 8:08 AM on September 3, 2016 [8 favorites]

I have never really gotten the dress-your-age thing and have always figured if you wear what you like--that maybe has never been on trend--you can't be out-of-fashion or inappropriate. A few years ago, middle-aged me met one of my 19-year-old students on the subway. She said, "Pangolin Party, you don't really wear what's in style--but I think the outfits you wear are cool." Some of my friends thought this was insulting. I was delighted.
posted by pangolin party at 8:10 AM on September 3, 2016 [16 favorites]

looking forward to reading this!!

when mrs. bitteroldman starting watching "what not to wear", i quickly and snobbily shrugged it off as vapid drivel, and absolutely desipised Ms. London's sarcastic and slightly-caustic persona on the show.

but as the boss continued to watch it, and I worked on my computer in the dining room, I would overhear what they had to say and realized I was wrong about the show and wrong about Ms. London.

i started actively watching the show and internalizing the advice, and looked forward to hear what Stacy (and Clinton) had to say.

count me in as a Stacy London fan!
posted by bitteroldman at 8:10 AM on September 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

She's much more self-aware than I would have thought,

She double-majored in modern philosophy and German Lit at Vassar. She's no slouch.

(I may be a bit of a Stacey London stan)
posted by tzikeh at 8:12 AM on September 3, 2016 [22 favorites]

I have never really gotten the dress-your-age thing

It's pretty simple. The point of youth culture is, you aren't old. Old people are the other. This border gets policed.
posted by thelonius at 8:12 AM on September 3, 2016 [29 favorites]

I'm 47 also, and while I'm not rich or on TV, I'm in the same boat in terms of no husband or kids, and wondering how I should dress. I'm short, and of color, so my little wrinkle is that I look much younger than my age. I don't act like a late-20-something, though, and that throws some people for a loop. I don't want to be taken for a 20-something, but the emphasis on a woman's youth has caused my friends to tell me, "Don't tell anyone your age! It's going to be held against you!"

In my current field, I rarely need to dress up, so most of the time I wear the same jeans-based outfits that I wore at uni. But. I need to find a new job, and along with learning the new rules of interview dressing that won't age me out of the running for any jobs (No pantyhose! Sheath dresses!), I'll have to figure out how to dress if I end up somewhere more corporate. Then again, once someone finds out my age, will I even be hired anywhere? Do I have to pretend to like Miley, Selena Gomez, The Weeknd and Marvel movies to get past the banter stage in an interview? And what about my hair? Well.

As for this woman, her WTF!? "Veldt" remark notwithstanding, I can't help but be envious. Must be nice to be tall, beautiful, rich, and on TV.

As for my off-time clothes, I'll probably wear jeans and kicks until I'm a very old lady indeed.
posted by droplet at 8:15 AM on September 3, 2016 [10 favorites]

i will say that the most important accessory is confidence. And if you combine confidence with not-giving-a-damn-about-what-anyone-has-to-say, you can wear anything you want whenever you want

case in point - i'm an over-40 male, and I've never been able to wear sunglasses in public, because I have this paranoia about people thinking that I'm "trying to be cool when I'm really not". I'm finally been able to look at myself in the mirror and like what I see, so I might venture out sometime soon and buy a pair of shades. but even if i still hated my reflection, I would probably get a pair because I'm also starting to care less and less about what other people think.
posted by bitteroldman at 8:18 AM on September 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'm a feminist with a job-not-a-career, no kids, no partner, worried about staying employable (in the eyes of sexist, ageist employers) as I age. How do I dress for that?

*Waves*

Stacy London can publicly write about her grey streak; unless we can somehow get paid for it, not totally sure we can without experiencing some kind of penalty. My feeling is that without significant career capital, we are judged on the appearance of having energy (youth), which is taken as an index of enthusiasm, flexibility, brightness - lack of bother.

I stick to conservative takes on current trends. Things I can move in unselfconsciously - nothing that pinches, rides up, or constrains. (So right now - dressier joggers, slightly loose tees, long cardis, midi-length shirt dresses, loose shifts. I'm so thankful that there's recently been a bit of a trend for styles that promote comfort. But there is usually a "relaxed" mode, and I'm pretty much always going to go for that.) At this point, most things in my closet are variations of cream, beige, navy, and black. I want my clothing to be invisible; I want to be the vehicle expressing things. My shoes are all medical devices, and will be for the foreseeable. I have a hairstyle that I think reads as vaguely contemporary. I attend to my 10 greys (maybe it's more like 15, now?), but work with my natural texture.

People are surprised when they learn my age, I'm usually read as late twenties to mid-thirties. (I do use tricks - glycolic acid, retinoids, sunscreen. I've also somewhat benefitted from having spent, imo, too many summers indoors - at least there was a minor, very minor silver lining, there - and having a roundish face. This is somewhat offset by the effects of smoking and rosacea, which I try to manage with highly selective use of makeup.)

I can probably only keep this up for ~five years. I have that much time to acquire the resources I need to not suffer overmuch in twenty.
posted by cotton dress sock at 8:28 AM on September 3, 2016 [11 favorites]

Yeah, I hit the caveman part and bailed. Older women processed foods, took care of children, helped younger pregnant women, and helped keep history and traditions.

OK, finished the article. I don't get her central point. She even writes—in her own article "So what’s this article about?" I mean, she seems like a pretty cool person, but this article is poorly put together.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 8:35 AM on September 3, 2016

I did a related FPP on older women and style awhile back that's a pretty good companion to this one.

There are quite a few irritating lines in this essay. Since when did having a second home become a marker of adulthood? I can't think of a single person in my personal acquaintance who owns two homes. Also, she has a first home but no mortgage. This might mean that she rents, but I think it much more likely that she owns her own home free and clear. That's not adolescence, honey, that's the reward of being someone who's been working for awhile combined with good fortune. And yes, that line about cavewomen being considered useless once they were past childbearing age is a total crock. Women in less industrialized times were valued for their skills and experience and the work they did. I wish this piece had been a little less focused on her appearance and a little more focused on what she does. I'm also impatient with her declaration that she doesn't have much in common with her friends who have children. Your friends who are parents are all still interesting, thinking, whole beings, Ms London -- they just don't have much time for you.

But I do like the piece in the main. She's saying her style is changing as she gets older, but she's the one deciding how it will change and she's damn well going to wear whatever she feels comfortable and attractive in regardless of what anyone else thinks, and that she also thinks ageing should be about reveling in the benefits of age rather than trying futilely to continue to look 25.

she really was all about sanding down the edges of the personal fashion styles of the (mostly) women who were on it

That she was. Like this piece, I liked that show on the whole, but there were some problematic things about it. The madeover subjects were always dressed in a very homogeneously contemporary style. Sure, they looked good, but there was no personal stamp on their look whatsoever. Also, Stacy and Clinton did NOT get the concept of work uniforms or having to wear old clothes to work because you had a job that ruined your clothes. I saw them do a young woman who worked at the zoo. Her uniforms were unflattering and unattractive and tended to get stained on the job (and you can imagine what kind of stains they were), but she had to wear them regardless. Clinton and Stacy tried to throw out her work uniforms. I was glad to see that she snatched the uniforms away from them, told them that they didn't understand and that she had to have the uniforms for work, and promised that she wouldn't wear her uniforms out socially anymore as she had been doing. A friend of mine told me she saw them do a carpenter and throw away all his grubby, paint-splashed work clothes. He was just supposed to ruin a new outfit every day at work, I guess.
posted by orange swan at 8:36 AM on September 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

I need to read it again. I got hung up on how because I'm married and a mom I'm boooooooooooring.

I read that as the honest truth, that if you an older woman and you don't have kids and a husband there are suprising difficulties in bonding with people your own age because their vital concerns are not yours. It's not that we don't want to be their friends, it's that the Big Things in their lives take priority over being our friends.
posted by winna at 8:45 AM on September 3, 2016 [55 favorites]

I've never seen the American version of What Not to Wear but I HATED the British version, so I was surprised by how much I liked this.

Every generation seems to base their idea of what grown-up (i.e. middle-aged) people wear on the generation before, or even the one before that - the sort of clothes people you recognised as being old when you were a child yourself. So I should probably be dressing like Miss Marple. Then there is an overlay from what you wore as a young person, since inside we all think we are still 19. The end result for me is that I mostly dress like a hippy Miss Marple.

Mind you, if I could afford a nice bespoke suit, I would probably have one made. Maybe in tweed, so I could look even more like Margaret Rutherford.
posted by Fuchsoid at 8:45 AM on September 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

There was a lot that I didn't like about What Not to Wear, but what I did like was that it basically revealed that a lot of how you look is about self-presentation, not innate beauty. That doesn't mean that we can all pull of the kind of self-presentation that they advocated: many of us don't have the time, inclination, money, lifestyles, etc. They basically dressed every woman the same way, and I don't want to live in a world where everyone dresses pretty much identically. But I really believed for a long time that there were pretty girls and ugly girls, and I was ugly, and that was that. And it turns out that I was a woman who had not mastered the skills of self-presentation that it took to be considered attractive. I probably never will: see above about time, inclination and money. But it was really helpful to me to start thinking about how I looked as being about a series of choices that I made within certain constraints, rather than some innate part of my being. And I think that What Not to Wear, because it kind of deconstructed what did and didn't look good on people, was part of that.

Anyway, I liked this essay, even though I'm a woman who has never put great stock in my appearance or sense of style and therefore am dealing with different issues as I age than she is.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:50 AM on September 3, 2016 [16 favorites]

That's Not My Age.

Advanced Style.

"Tell me, at what age can women just look the age they are? Give me less advice on avoiding all that is pleasurable, from booze to sunlight, and more on how reading actually improves memory and cognitive function. Tell middle-aged woman that their rage is not an individual problem to be feared, it’s fuel for the fire of the next stage of their lives. Nourishment means doing the things that make you feel full of yourself. That does not come in a jar. It never did."
posted by MonkeyToes at 8:50 AM on September 3, 2016 [15 favorites]

Can we have more posts and discussions like this, please? I am increasingly contemplating how to manage a life as a woman who is not going to hit the traditional milestones.
posted by gusandrews at 8:50 AM on September 3, 2016 [35 favorites]

I dress 100% for comfort, something I started doing in my early 20s. My primary value to society is not my physical appearance or my presentation of gender and I do not care if I am not perceived as conventionally attractive or feminine enough.

If I miss out on opportunities because I don't look right for them, they weren't going to be the right opportunities for me anyway. I want to put my limited energy into stuff I'm actually interested in and genuinely care about in, not a performance for someone else's benefit.

I'm going grey relatively quickly relatively young and I'm not going to dye it to preserve my natural colour (though I might dye it fun colours when it goes all the way). I like how much I like how it looks. I figure I'll get a little less of society's disdain for young women and a little more of society's disdain for old women, but it's all the same misogyny so I don't feel like I've been cheated.

I'm only scared of ageing in the sense of pain and physical degeneration. I'm not scared of people fucking with me because I'm not what they want me to be - it's hard to be fucked with when you reject the entire construct they're using to fuck with you.

Every unchallenged assumption and conventional expectation that I reject bolsters a certainty that has been growing in me all through my twenties - it feels like deep, peaceful power. Some of my favourite women ever have been the ones who showed me that this rejection was possible; not only survivable but positive and affirming.

I read a great tweet today: "back in May I turned 40 & opened the window that night to sleep and the last of my fucks winged its way into the night."

I love the lightness left by the fucks of mine that are flying from me every day.
posted by terretu at 9:03 AM on September 3, 2016 [24 favorites]

it's hard to be fucked with when you reject the entire construct they're using to fuck with you.

Yeah, but I don't know, I'm not hiring myself for things, you know? (Maybe I should.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:07 AM on September 3, 2016 [10 favorites]

Dress, you rage.

When I read the story of Roger Ailes, and what he and his institution did to women, then I realize he did it to us all. On every screen is this presentation and presenter. When I read the cave people blarp, the sociobiological ravings of academics who model Ailes in the past, I just shake my head.

C'mon there was binding love and affection that transcended age, way back in the day. There was camaraderie, group spirit, care for the young, as well as the negatives. Accentuating the negatives over time, acts like it actively excuses present day soul murder. Nah!

We get to choose the dressing for our salads, why give someone else the power to choose how we dress? We have to realize that mating, child bearing and rearing are a part of our life spans. We really do not have to spend our lives before an invisible audience whom we allow shady judgement. Hell wif 'em!
posted by Oyéah at 9:10 AM on September 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

I think the thing about getting older and choosing how to dress/groom/adorn myself is that I've become much more confidently conscious about how I do it and that's a good thing.

When you're a kid, a teenager, a college student, and throughout young adulthood, you're wearing a uniform to some extent. You're looking at what other members of your tribe (or the tribe you want to belong to) and you dress for that tribe. This is absolutely true even for people who eschew fashion or trends.

When you get older, you belong to multiple tribes, or sometimes your own tribe. But there's much less pressure to show the world to which group you belong and this provides an opportunity to use your clothing to show the world who you are.

I think it's a valid point of criticism to point out when older people continue to dress as a tribe member, i.e. "dressing your age" (these people perhaps lack confidence to choose clothes that are anything outside of the middle aged stuffed suits they see in the Land's End catalog) as well as point out when someone still dresses like a college student at age 50 (have you not had any new interesting life experiences in the last 25 years?).

I will often put together things I've carried with me from my past (old band or skateboard shirts, flannels) along with things I've acquired now and it all goes together to make up the "me" I feel comfortable with and want to show the world and the people with whom I interact.

Of course, you still need to think about general fashion advice like "does this fit me the way I am comfortable with?" Or "do these colors together look the way I want them to ?" or "Is my tattered Christianity is Stupid tee and plaid pants appropriate to wear to the opera?" Sometimes you feel like making edgy choices, sometimes not, sometimes it works, sometimes not. But the point is that unlike 25 year old me, 46 year old me is making those choices every morning and it's incredibly fun. Whether it fits with social expectation of me is a consideration that is way down the list.

Ultimately, I don't expend too much conscious energy judging the way people dress themselves, but I do feel that not putting thought into matching the clothes to the changing moods of the person inside the clothes is pretty obvious to the casual observer. To me it seems that the middle aged software exec with 3 kids who has travelled the world, discovered new hobbies, had loves and heartbreaks, and opinions about things yet still wears baggy jeans from the 90s and a college sweatshirt from their alma mater to any situation where they might interact with other people indicates someone who isn't very confident or reflective on their life.

Or I'm just a superficial fuck who only cares about appearances. Yeah, it's probably that.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 9:15 AM on September 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

Also What Not to Wear was never about the *clothes*. It was about loving yourself and taking care of yourself and not just giving up. (Even if, yes, Stacey & Clinton were more conservative than I might be.) Every person on the show had gotten swept up by taking care of other people or waylaid by low self-esteem and the show gave them the space & time to refresh — and the skills. No show has ever made me cry pretty much every time (even if it was formulaic enough that I could edit an episode now.)
posted by dame at 9:16 AM on September 3, 2016 [16 favorites]

I hated that awful show. The whole premise was that people would nominate their supposed friends, then take unflattering pictures and video of them and talk shit about them behind their backs, and then they'd ambush them and bully them into some gross makeover. And there was almost always a part where Stacy London would harangue women for wearing comfortable shoes, and try to convince them that they had to wear these excruciating looking pointy things instead. And I hated the casual assumption that of course every woman must want to attract attention. They never even questioned that.

That show scared me enough that I explicitly told my husband and my closest friend that if anyone ever tried that with me, I probably wouldn't talk to them anymore.

She does sound like she's matured somewhat, but she had a really, really long way to go.
posted by ernielundquist at 9:17 AM on September 3, 2016 [11 favorites]

I always wondered how many people they ambushed on that show who refused to participate. Certainly the people who made it to broadcast consented to it.

Another thing that people forget is that after they gave their thoughtful critique, Stacy and Clinton didn't dress them. They gave them money and told them to go out and buy clothes for themselves. The people chose their own outfits. it was much less the case for the hair and makeup lady who pretty much did whatever she wanted to their faces and I hated that part
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 9:26 AM on September 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

Yeah but it's not like the women ever went out -- at least not on the episodes I saw -- and bought more of the clothes they'd already chosen and liked and had been wearing perfectly happily before they got ambushed. It was never "your clothes are fine, just a bit worn out, go get some new ones!" It was always "you are Wrong and you must become more conventional."
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:54 AM on September 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

And there was almost always a part where Stacy London would harangue women for wearing comfortable shoes, and try to convince them that they had to wear these excruciating looking pointy things instead.

Yeah, those shoes are awful.

There aren't a lot of options if you do care about style and have orthopedic needs, though. Most makers of comfortable shoes seem to presume that we all want to look like extras in Lord of the Rings. (WTF is this, I ask you.)
posted by cotton dress sock at 9:58 AM on September 3, 2016 [12 favorites]

Friends, wear what you want. That's real style advice.

My kids and I always hated WNTW and laughed that a colorful and fitted blazer nipped at the waist, a statement necklace/scarf and heels was what every woman should wear. How dare they.

And don't get me started about Carmindy and how apparently every woman needed makeup.

Anyway, I can't really tell what the f*ck London is on about in this piece, and apparently, neither can she:

So what’s this article about? An aging woman who wants to wear suits and not poufy dresses? No. It’s about taking a hard look at the traditional ideas that are associated with women’s inalienable rights, be they wearing skin-baring dresses or having children, and that “having it all” no longer means those rights need to be exercised.

I can't even -- what is she even saying?

Just wear what you want, friends. You be you.*

*And am I the only person who thinks this is just a fake ad for her new bespoke clothing collection:

In fact, the suits I’m starting to wear are bespoke, fit for a woman’s figure, and co-designed with Emily Meyer, a designer who specializes in just that: suits for women only. They are bright and plaid and shiny but tailored to perfection — exquisite, chic, and most of all feel like me now.
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 10:11 AM on September 3, 2016 [10 favorites]

It was never "your clothes are fine, just a bit worn out, go get some new ones!"

... Because people who were dressing "fine" wouldn't have been accepted for the show -- hence the premise of the show.

I always wondered how many people they ambushed on that show who refused to participate. Certainly the people who made it to broadcast consented to it.

Two people in ten years, I believe, with approximately 500 applications a day at its height.
posted by tzikeh at 10:17 AM on September 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

Sociobiologically speaking

[hand-waving intensifies]
posted by thelonius at 10:21 AM on September 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

Friends, wear what you want. That's real style advice.

Nah, it's a trite, facile slogan. It's not style advice.

So here's the thing, if you're a woman: you're supposed to pick up the rules of femininity instinctively. You're supposed to know, as if by magic, how to do your hair and makeup and find clothes that look good on you and develop a sense of personal style. And I'm sure that there are some women who do pick it up instinctively, or for whom picking it up is relatively painless and feels like fun. And there are other women who just don't give a shit about femininity, and more power to them. But there are a lot of us who would like to know the rules, and to whom they do not come easily. And for us, it's kind of cruel to say that you should do whatever you want or that we should just give up. Doing what we instinctively want doesn't get the desired result, and giving up feels shitty. It is ok for there to be media that coaches us about how to do the things that we are told we should be born knowing how to do. It's ok that we want that.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 10:22 AM on September 3, 2016 [65 favorites]

I'm happy Stacy is wearing less conventional clothes now, and encouraging other women to pursue what works for them rather than cater to a bland commonly-accepted style. That said, I actually got a lot out of WNTW because I really don't have a natural understanding of style, and it was helpful to get general guidelines on what made an outfit work: texture, color, a little bit of bling.

So for all that they really shouldn't have thrown out all of someone's old clothes and beloved SF/F t-shirts, the show had a lot of value for me. But I'm hella grateful nobody ever nominated me for it!
posted by suelac at 10:48 AM on September 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

it's kind of cruel to say that you should do whatever you want

apologies -- no offense meant
posted by yes I said yes I will Yes at 11:11 AM on September 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Strange, this doesn't really change my perception of Stacy, and I watched a lot of WNTW. I've always seen her as a countercultural force when it comes to fashion. I think it was her streak of gray that she refused to dye.

Her style back then seems mainstream compared with what you see on the streets and in stores today, but at the time she was fighting against some of the slobishness and clothing-hoarding of the 90s. She helped create this fashion landscape we now live in in North America, but she herself continues along in the fashion vanguard.
posted by mantecol at 11:13 AM on September 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

"In fact, the suits I’m starting to wear are bespoke, fit for a woman’s figure, and co-designed with Emily Meyer, a designer who specializes in just that: suits for women only. They are bright and plaid and shiny but tailored to perfection — exquisite, chic, and most of all feel like me now.".

It sure must be nice to be able to spend a few thousand bucks per outfit like that.

I'll just be over here continuing to dress my forty-something transwoman self in a mode I describe as "hot witch".
posted by egypturnash at 11:15 AM on September 3, 2016 [17 favorites]

Everyone sends social signals with the way they present themselves, whether they want to or not. It's just a fact.

People who think they dress solely for comfort and utility often have deeply ingrained fashion rules they abide by without even realizing it. Men pretty commonly think they're super utilitarian and are often incredibly dismissive of any sort of fashion stuff, but if that were true, they'd be wearing things like leggings, muumuus, and fanny packs, and this is not something I have been seeing much of. The funny part of that is that their 'intuitive' understanding of the social semiotics of fashion is so deeply internalized that they don't even know it exists. They are so fashion conscious that they can't even articulate their rules. They just know and follow them unquestioningly.

There really is a lot to learn about that stuff, and sometimes, people need help understanding how to send the social messages they want to send. The problem with What not to wear is not that they showed people how to do that. It's that they casually assumed that all women were interested in sending largely the same social signals, and they didn't stop to think that maybe that wasn't true. That maybe there were women out there who weren't interested in attracting attention for their appearance. Who didn't want to "pop" or highlight their most attractive features. Not every woman wants to be generically attractive to strangers, sexually or otherwise.

It is unfortunate that she's running into social stereotypes as she ages, but she's built a career on doing that to other people, and she doesn't appear to acknowledge that anywhere. She's still stereotyping other people in her attempts to exempt herself.

I would have had zero problem with that show if people had voluntarily asked to be made over. The setup, though, with the spying, gossiping, and ambushing was repulsive and cruel, though. Some of those people who agreed to be on the show were clearly distressed by the way their friends were talking about them, and were just acquiescing because they were bullied.
posted by ernielundquist at 11:19 AM on September 3, 2016 [38 favorites]

"Sociobiologically speaking, in caveman days, if we could no longer bear children our use-value dropped sharply and inevitably." Actually (and we mostly didn't live in caves, thank you) older women in most societies, while perhaps not as desirable for sex, are the workers, the glue, the element that makes everything happen.

Sometimes you want to speak in all-caps like, "HAVE YOU HEARD OF CLOTHES? DID YOU KNOW THAT HISTORICALLY, WOMEN BASICALLY MADE ALL THE CLOTHES?" and in this particular case "YOU KNOW, THE SUBJECT OF YOUR ARTICLE? CLOTHES?" It is the elder generation who carry on all the knowledge and expertise that go into craftsmanship. Weaving, knitting, sewing, cooking, woodworking, etc. They're the ones who are unsurpassed experts in their crafts, and who educate the younger generation.

Speaking of which, here's an awesome lady who completed her fashion degree at 87 and who, at age 101, continues to create clothes.

As for fashion rules, one huge reason they're so hard to put a finger on for women nowadays is that most clothes made for us are crap on several levels. I work in the hi-falutin' business district of Paris (La Défense), right. Given Paris, capital of fashion, and hi-falutin' business district, one would assume a comparatively strict dress code. Imagine me meaningfully shaking my head "noooooo". It is so hard to find decent clothes at affordable prices, even for women who earn massive salaries, that they all dress in whatever "good enough" clothes they can find. I see zero women's suits, and I work at the headquarters of a Fortune 50 company with their general management. Women managers and directors wear everything from Uniqlo to H&M to Desigual to Camaïeu (the latter two being European fast fashion brands). About the only rule starts in autumn (cooler weather), and that is "fitted jacket", but that's about it. It can be any color, any pattern, no pattern... so long as it's fitted.
posted by fraula at 11:58 AM on September 3, 2016 [14 favorites]

Also What Not to Wear was never about the *clothes*. It was about loving yourself and taking care of yourself and not just giving up.

Because obviously unless you wear clothes that garner enough social approval you must not love yourself and must not take care of yourself and must have given up.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:03 PM on September 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

Count me in as another person who was sad about the lengths WNTW would go to to homogenize every woman who appeared on it. Stacy was part of a duo consistently making bullying and ageist (most every woman who appeared on the show was dressing too young or too old....) comments about every woman's wardrobe, and now that she's older herself, she's seeing it's not so cool. Every woman got her hair cut off, too. Stacy had long hair and Carmindy had long hair but every woman who came on the show got all of her hair cut off. Between Stacy and Clinton there was just so much shaming going on. I felt badly for every person that came on the show and looking back on it, wished I hadn't watched it at all. I always felt I was going to learn something but all I ever learned was that it's ok to shame people for their personal style if it falls outside of what is acceptable.
posted by the webmistress at 12:03 PM on September 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

Current culture leads me to believe I’m supposed to attempt to look 25 for the next 50 years. This this this this this. I am going to be 50- and GFD- I want to be able to LOOK 50 . And that means I would like to be able to be much less vigilant about the wrinkles on my face and the places where gravity won.

I no haz the childrens. I can haz a little career . I'm inda-inter-dependent - meaning I pay all the bills but having relationships with other people makes me happy. Marriage isn't one of them.

She does touch on those ideas- that dressing yourself is supposed to signal to the rest of the world who you are. Unless there is a t shirt somewhere that states my exact reality- am I supposed to explain that to other people?Is it really their problem or concern? If I want to wear my skull on a pike shirt while hiking- does it really bother people all that much?
posted by LuckyMonkey21 at 12:08 PM on September 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

The point is, no matter HOW you dress, many women my age don’t always own the exciting possibilities afforded them because they don’t feel valued by our current culture.

The culture is not the problem- it's people who allow other people to do their thinking for them.
posted by LuckyMonkey21 at 12:12 PM on September 3, 2016 [2 favorites]

*And am I the only person who thinks this is just a fake ad for her new bespoke clothing collection:

It's ok with me if it is (though I think it isn't, totally). Because of what Fraula's saying.

It sure must be nice to be able to spend a few thousand bucks per outfit like that.

If the collection's any good, it'll all trickle down, and there will be slightly crappier but more affordable renditions of the ideas soon.

People who think they dress solely for comfort and utility often have deeply ingrained fashion rules they abide by without even realizing it.

Oh, I am very consciously (but gently) surfing the wave of "relevance" (or attempting to).
posted by cotton dress sock at 12:15 PM on September 3, 2016

I really enjoyed this article. It spoke to where I am in a lot of ways. I didn't figure out how to have "style" until about a decade ago, and my personal style is continually evolving. I definitely don't "dress my age" but I also don't dress like a twentysomething (and if you think there's pressure to maintain the looks of a twentysomething where you live, helloooooooo move to Los Angeles). My mother despairs of me; she continually sends me things from Chico's in an attempt to get me to dress more appropriately. I want to send her this article.
posted by rednikki at 12:25 PM on September 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

Because obviously unless you wear clothes that garner enough social approval you must not love yourself and must not take care of yourself and must have given up.

No, not at all. But look — there is a difference between fashion for "social approval" and dressing like you hate yourself. The people on the show, by and large, were not people who had their own quirky style that looked great on them or even, like the vast majority of us, people wearing mediocre, unremarkable things that mostly fit and were okay. No one was getting hauled in there for wearing cargo shorts and polo shirts or the dowdy side of Lands End.

The vast majority of the people on the show were either busy people who took care of everyone else — a fact their friends tended to note — or thought they weren't pretty enough or skinny enough or important enough to care about their looks, so they hid out in baggy or otherwise ill-fitting clothes. And at the end, when they came out all dolled up, they almost always were in tears for how great they looked.

If you want to ignore clothes, that's totally fine, but there seems to be a lot of projecting going on compared to what I saw when I watched the show (which I did, a lot, because I liked the end even when I yelled at some of the stupid outfits). Everyone deserves to look cute — not for social approval or other people, but for themselves!
posted by dame at 12:48 PM on September 3, 2016 [13 favorites]

Can we have more posts and discussions like this, please? I am increasingly contemplating how to manage a life as a woman who is not going to hit the traditional milestones.

I wonder if there is a place on the internet for women like us. If someone starts an FB group, please include me.
posted by bunderful at 1:05 PM on September 3, 2016 [10 favorites]

I've had a long term issue with people trying to make me over. It's slowed down some, partly through culling my friends, I guess, and partly because I am in my 50s now so people probably attribute my wardrobe to me "giving up" or whatever.

People tend to mistake my aesthetic for no aesthetic at all. I don't just wear Birkenstocks and Docs all the time because they're practical and comfortable, though. I also like the way they look. Flimsy little shoes don't bother me as long as I'm not the one wearing them, but I actively do not want to wear them, and probably wouldn't want to even if they were comfortable on me. I know Birks are sort of fashionable right now, as evidenced that I just had to pay FULL PRICE for a replacement pair, but I have always thought they looked good. I like big clunky things and often oversized clothing, and my favorite color is probably gray.

If I completely had my fashion druthers, I'd probably dress like a 19th century Eastern European peasant woman or something, all long gray linen tunics and stuff. But I don't, because that would attract more attention than I want, and people would probably think I was a hippy or something.

One of my most common peeves is the way so many people make assumptions about others based on extremely limited information. Things like (perceived) demographics or unrelated subjects or the way they dress. It pisses me off but hard every time someone starts a sentence with "I'll bet you..." or "You probably..." based on some usually stupid and offensive interpretation of something I said or something they think I am. I'm super hell of not going to invite more of that dumbassery by wearing anything that gets people's attention like that.

I don't want to offend or insult or repulse anyone unintentionally, and when I do it intentionally, I will do it in a much more direct way than putting on an outfit and hoping you see me in it. I'd rather just blend into the background until I decide not to. I don't have many statements that I could make articulately using a necklace, and it is not my goal to be pretty for other people. But also, the fact that I don't have the same aesthetic as you (generically) do doesn't mean I have no aesthetic at all.

It's not because I'm depressed or have a bad self image or anything. I think my "frumpy" clothes look better than the stuff people usually try to get me to wear. I appreciate the time, talent, and creativity some people put into the way they present themselves. And while I don't have the skills and interests to get too much into it myself, that doesn't mean that I'm not making conscious choices. They're just not the same ones you might make.
posted by ernielundquist at 1:37 PM on September 3, 2016 [12 favorites]

I struggle with the idea of a personal style because 1) I spend a lot of time in farm-appropriate utilitarian-wear, and 2) I have no idea whether something looks flattering on me.

So please, share: How do you (without outside feedback) understand what looks good on you, what is your personal style, and what are your favorite specific pieces?
posted by MonkeyToes at 1:40 PM on September 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

This piece did speak to me. My birthday is in a few days, and every year around this time I look at myself in the mirror and say, "Is my hair too long for my age? Should I stop with the braid? Wear higher-necked tops? Am I too old to go to happy hour with my (mostly younger) coworkers? Is this lipstick too bold? Do my shoes read too young? Do they read too old? If I dress fashionably, will I look like I'm trying too hard? If I dress comfortably, does it look like I've given up?"

Like Stacy London, I don't have children. You're not the boring one, Molly Razor, I promise. I am, because I'm the one who can't converse with most women my age because I don't know the price of new soccer cleats or can complain about the stack of back to school paperwork or after-school care. Trust me, once I went Monday-Friday at the lunch table at work without saying a peep because there was literally no way to participate or change the subject.

If it were completely up to me, I'd dress like a boho 1940s Miss Frizzle mashup. But I can't, despite the "wear what you want! you be you!" platitudes because I work in a very young office and I don't want to be read as a woman too old to be able to operate her own PC. I look forward to when my trouser pockets are too small to hold the fucks. Because as of right now? I still want people to think of me as stylish and trendy without being a tryhard.
posted by kimberussell at 1:49 PM on September 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

Hey Stacey, welcome to middle age. Loved the show.

The reason there are so few fashion discussions on MF is because of the aggression and projection that fills them.

The show was showing people how to dress who had no idea how to do it. By the nature of it it was somewhat conservative. Just like if you take a painting/music/writing class or anything else, you learn the basics. If you are inspired you take it from there, if not, well at least you know the basics. What you do with the information is up to you. I'm pretty sure they didn't force anyone to dress a certain way for the rest of their lives.
posted by bongo_x at 1:51 PM on September 3, 2016 [13 favorites]

I would have had zero problem with that show if people had voluntarily asked to be made over. The setup, though, with the spying, gossiping, and ambushing was repulsive and cruel, though.

If you want to volunteer for a makeover, there's a lot of easy ways to do that and generally those people already have a handle on the basics of how to dress for how you feel. The spark of the show was that even people who don't care to look "high fashion" and glamorous can feel better by shifting their perspective a little and learning a few guiding principles.

I never saw anything on the show that I could call repulsive or cruel towards the target. Everyone I saw nominated was done so by people who cared for them and saw that their loved one wasn't succeeding at projecting themselves, they saw a happier, more confident, and yes more beautiful person who in some cases was hiding and trying not to be noticed or in other cases was putting thought into their appearance and utterly failing. And that's the point of following them around with hidden cameras, to develop a sense from the beginning of how other people are perceiving you. I think that's an entirely different thing than trying to get people to conform to some ideal. The fact is, a lot of the people who were chosen were just average middle America joes and Josephines living in the suburbs and working in cubicles and it made sense that they would choose generally more conservative clothes. That was kind of the point of the show, that this kind of thinking isn't just for models and hipsters but normal folks too who buy their clothes at the mall and just want to feel a little better when they walk into the office.

And this whole thing about "don't judge me because I don't follow Stacy and Clinton's rules" -- absolutely. Appearances don't tell everything, in many cases anything, about the person inside and I'm all in favor of preaching this everywhere. But saying "I don't care about my appearance at all and I just dress for myself and my comfort", well you can and should be happy with that if its good for you, but you're also kind of ignoring a lot of things happening below the surface, and if you're interested, there's this whole other way of doing it.

The most important fashion advice I've ever followed is, when you get out of the shower in the morning, before you pick out your clothes ask yourself: "How do I feel today?" Everything else stems from that.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 2:01 PM on September 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

So please, share: How do you (without outside feedback) understand what looks good on you, what is your personal style, and what are your favorite specific pieces?

Disclaimer: 40-something year-old male here!

The short answer: it's a journey!

Longish answer:
Like many things, it's about trial and error; asking yourself, "who am I, really," and asking yourself if it's worth all the effort (and it's OK if you decide that you have more important priorities - because style takes maintenance!)
And then you try a few things, and if you're lucky, you'll like them, and if not, well better luck next time. As time goes by, your opinion will change; you'll learn "rules" for your body-type; you'll decide that you want to change your look...
but time ticks on, and you gain experience, and soon you know which stores and styles suit you best.
and you become less fearful at the thought of wearing the wrong thing, and trying something new. you focus less on the end result, but rather enjoy the journey of transforming yourself into something new.
and you start to look at people differently, what they wear, and how they wear it. you start to be able to tell who is comfortable in their style, and who is super self-conscious.
you get inspired by their sense of style and swagger when they wear it, and soon you find yourself owning your own style, whatever it might be.

_{FWIW: I used to be very practical when it came to clothing, but then the mid-life crisis hit (and continues to bombard me), and I decided to work on my wardrobe. First, I wanted to be the "guy with the nice suits", so I was buying dress pants, and jackets and vests and ties. Now, for a number of reasons, I've decided I want to be the casual guy, so I've started to buy polos and cargo pants. I've already decided that when I'm in my 70s, I'm going to be the "old dude who wears those awesome pastel-coloured suits and matching hats"}
posted by bitteroldman at 2:23 PM on September 3, 2016 [7 favorites]

The "What Not to Wear" vitriol seems to be discounting that the show had sponsors. Yes, the participants usually wound up looking conservatively homogenized (head bank teller chic is the critical phrase I remember from its heyday) because by the close of the episode they were wearing clothing provided by a small group of advertisers. These companies did not have especially edgy clothing lines, or perhaps they weren't shilling those particular products on the program.

The advice provided in the first half was useful -- the importance of correctly fitting undergarments, the difference tailoring makes, what a coordinated outfit looks like, and so on.
posted by Iris Gambol at 2:30 PM on September 3, 2016 [3 favorites]

I appreciated the article. It's very timely for me- I turn 40 in a couple weeks and I'm stressing about clothing. I've lost a lot of weight in the past two years and now that I have to think about a new wardrobe because nothing fits, I'm kind of unsure where to go with it. Like others in this thread, I tend to read younger. I'm short too. Honestly, I think people read short as younger, no matter what. But I also don't feel older. And I like to dress how I feel, so end up in a lot of clothing more appropriate for younger people. Tshirt and jeans, but I also tend to skew heavily towards some of the fashions she describes herself wanting to wear and thusly deciding she can't. I can with some, but I also found myself recently having purchased skirts I fucking love but feel they're far too young and flirty and I can't figure out what to wear with them to tone that down a bit. [sigh]

The flip side is that I spent yesterday looking on Pinterest for "petite fashion over 40" and I noped the fuck out of that. Too many people dressing stodgy and old! If that's age appropriate, then count me the fuck out. So looking at the author's style gave me some measure of hope that maybe there is a style that's mature but not stodgy.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 3:16 PM on September 3, 2016

No, not at all. But look — there is a difference between fashion for "social approval" and dressing like you hate yourself.

I hear what you're saying, really, but "like you hate yourself" still seems like an extraordinarily strong inference to make about someone just from what they wear. If you're just being jovially hyperbolic, sorry for not getting it.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 3:38 PM on September 3, 2016

When I was in my 20s, I was told that I should enjoy having long hair then, because it didn't look as good on older women.

I don't think anyone would say that to Vera Wang's face though, and she's 67.

(Not that I have any hope of pulling off her sense of style, but I still have long hair, decades later.)
posted by wenat at 3:59 PM on September 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

I would describe my personal style as "new wave fairy godmother". I fell in love with the way new wavers and punks reinterpreted '50s thrift store finds and exaggerated the colors and proportions. (You also see this a lot in John Waters' movies.) My love of the New Look silhouette--with the form-fitting top and full skirt--also follows function for me. I have a noticeable gunt and thick thighs, and while I have a few pairs of pants, shopping for pants is a nightmare. (Since I like hygiene, I also avoid unhygienic clothing like flip flops and leggings.) At work, I tone down my look by wearing a shirtwaist dress with a small, fun accessory like hoop earrings or Fakelite bangles.

I think for me, clothing is a form of expression and communication. At almost 40, I'm still struggling to find my people. I wear expressive clothing in a way to find others who might be like me--if someone likes my pineapple-shaped purse or 1950s sundress with pictures of the states on it, we might have other things in common as well!
posted by pxe2000 at 4:04 PM on September 3, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'm thinking of going back to tutus and blinding prints.
Desmond and Mandela say, "Don't fret about it."
posted by Oyéah at 4:11 PM on September 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

So please, share: How do you (without outside feedback) understand what looks good on you, what is your personal style, and what are your favorite specific pieces?

I'm 35 but I have been told by people that I have a good sense of personal style. I've been a bit off kilter recently but I've been allowing myself to experiment a bit more.

Note: I have had a buzzcut for a year and a half so that's the 'kind' of person I am. By all accounts I pulled it off and I enjoyed it, but I am growing my hair out now.

: dress in ways that have a sensory pleasure, not just aesthetic. Right now I am wearing a dress that doesn't follow any fashion rule for 'flattering' my body but it has a deep v back which feels nice, and the fabric is cupro and feels amazing and is super stretchy. It is comfortably long (midi/mid-calf) which allows me a lot more freedom of movement than shorter skirts/dresses, without the 'stuck in a car door' element of maxi-dresses.
: I take inspiration where it comes. So my work uniform has more in common with that amazing photo of Toshiro Mifune than, say, academic fashion advice for women. Not that I don't enjoy that advice, it's just that when I go to work I borrow more from men's fashion than women's (and I can, because humanities has a place for women like me). So if I see a photo I like, I work out what I like about it, then see what I can apply to my style (if anything).
: I accept that there are things I like, things I like to wear, and those don't have to be the same. I LOVE my sister's fashion sense for example, but I do not have the dedication to it she does, so I am going to spend neither the money nor the time it requires.
: it is work. It doesn't happen by accident. I consciously engage with what I wear, what I buy, and how I wear it. I moderate it based on event, weather, audience. I simplify what I can (I don't think I own any pieces that don't go together any more) but part of that simplification is engaging mindfully with what I am doing. I know I shift a lot between more masculine presentation and more feminine presentation, so there is very little in my wardrobe that is very feminine (and even those four items - three dresses and one skirt - have masculine aspects in cut and colour and weight).
: I know what I want out of clothes and I have a running checklist in my head if I go shopping - anything for my bottom half I prefer to have pockets, needs to have stretch, should be able to be worn with cons, boots, or my summer sandals, and non-see through. Shirts should also have stretch, or be comfortably over-sized, dark colours, work with a blazer over for teaching/meeting days, and not show too much cleavage (personal preference). This makes it easier to shop because I have all these basic ideas down. It makes everything mesh a lot better too.
: work with silhouettes for overall outfits.

My favourite specific pieces right now, in no particular order: denim-coloured button ups that I wear over things as a jacket and under blazers for work; black ponte pants; my racerback singlets with WonderWoman or Totoro on them*; boxy t-shirts; and my light grey cons. I really like the dress I mentioned above as well, dresses up and down very easily and is super comfortable but it is a summer dress.

*this is mostly because my best friends bought them for me so it's like a hug when I wear them.
posted by geek anachronism at 4:42 PM on September 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

So please, share: How do you (without outside feedback) understand what looks good on you, what is your personal style, and what are your favorite specific pieces?

If I smile when I look in the mirror, then it looks good on me. I've got a good mental inventory of my body shape, what areas I want to play up and which ones I want to camouflage. For myself (50, size 18/20/22, big boobs and butt, small waist and double chin) I wear form fitting clothes with scoop necked tops, dresses/skirts that are either maxi or above the knee, jeans with an ever so slight flare. After trial and error, I know what sizes in what brands work for me and which ones don't. Everyone tells me I should keep my hair short, but oh fucking well-I like it longer.

All of this knowledge came about over 40 years of trial and error, reading (lots of) different style books, books about cosmetics and now blogs/youtube/instagram. My mom has only ever worn lipstick to church on Sundays, didn't have pierced ears and has never once blown her hair dry. She is my total opposite style wise, so I had nobody to teach me so I taught myself. And it took a while and my style changed through the years as my life did, but I'm pretty happy with it.

Now, this my my thing. Call it a hobby if you like. I am fascinated by clothes and style-if that makes me shallow, then so be it.
posted by hollygoheavy at 4:48 PM on September 3, 2016 [4 favorites]

The Triumph of Individual Style is out of print but reasonably available. They categorize looks by -- checking the ToC -- line, shape, proportion, particular features, scale, color and texture. Just about all of these are illustrated with museum photos, from around the world, not all representational. For body shape, they discuss how to dress to point up the original shape or look like another one, and the line-drawings for all the suggestions are charming. Of course an hourglass woman might sometimes want to look oval-shaped! Thick thighs: how to dress to hide them, how to dress to flaunt them. Etc. I love it, and don't know of another book like it.

I would like someone to re-do Molloy's Dress for Success, because I like the experimental goal of those books: to find the clothes for a woman that increased the likelihood of other people dealing with her fairly. Most of the time that's what I need out of clothes: something that will get me a hearing. (The rest of the time, pockets.)
posted by clew at 6:04 PM on September 3, 2016 [9 favorites]

The flip side is that I spent yesterday looking on Pinterest for "petite fashion over 40" and I noped the fuck out of that. Too many people dressing stodgy and old! If that's age appropriate, then count me the fuck out. So looking at the author's style gave me some measure of hope that maybe there is a style that's mature but not stodgy.

The trick is to leave "over 40" off of that search term. It is disturbing to me how deeply ingrained (in our society) is the idea that women "over 40" or "middle aged" has become associated with...shapeless tunics? Floral prints? Sensible slacks? I truly believe that a lot of women wear these things not because they like them (though if you do, great!), but because the messaging we've always gotten about how women over age xx shouldn't wear [thing] or [other thing] has become so accepted as truth that retailers who specifically target middle-aged or older women will only make things that fall in line with what society has deemed acceptable for us. And women who don't have a natural feel for fashion (like me) will buy it because we're not given any real alternative options.

Just look for petite fashion and wear the things that you like and feel comfortable in. Buy clothes from the teen department if you want to. You make the rules. The only thing that would make the clothes that over 40's wear any different from what the under 40's wear is what society has told us we should wear. There's no inherent difference.
posted by triggerfinger at 6:12 PM on September 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

Sigh. Again this implicit assumption that if you're forty or older that you now have money to buy 'real' clothes, have them tailored, keep your hair in a fashionable state, wear good shoes, and generally be well-groomed. I'm a decade past forty, and I've never had this kind of money to spend on my self-presentation. I wear hand-me-downs and end-of-season-clearance clothes, I wear clothes that I've owned for more than twenty years (because when you're poor you learn to hoard clothes so you can stretch your wardrobe). I dye my own hair, or sometimes manage to be a hair model at a beauty school, make five dollar lipsticks last for two years, and sometimes only manage to be shod due to the kindness of other people. You know what? I still think I look great.

I scorn age-appropriate dress. I love my body more than I ever did as a younger woman and I show it off when I want to. If you don't like it, stop looking. I have a few conservative things (blazers and sheath dresses) that I wear if I'm supposed to look 'professional' but I've always liked eye-catching outfits and I'm not giving them up. My legs are beautiful, and dammit, I'm going to show them off. I refuse to become invisible (all power to those who like the ease and comfort of neutral colours and loose long tunics, but it's not for me) although I understand that some women find comfort in that.

The funniest thing about it, for me, is that the MORE outrageous and provocative my clothing, the less I am bothered by men. I get approached when I'm wearing jeans and t-shirts, not when I'm wearing the short-shorts with fishnets and boots. I think it is that men then cannot disingenuously pretend that their interest is not based on sex like they can do when I'm more conservatively dressed. As for WNTW, the show always rubbed me the wrong way, perhaps because I could well imagine my mother nominating me to be made-over. Proudly dressing like a weirdo since 1976.
posted by alltomorrowsparties at 6:23 PM on September 3, 2016 [12 favorites]

I like the message here, but I think the execution is a little blah. I'm not terribly interested in Stacy's tailored suits - not only will such things probably be forever out of my reach financially, but they don't really seem all that subversive to me, nor a very far cry from what she always espoused on the show.

But yes, that message. YES, to wearing whatever I feel like wearing regardless of my age (or body size and shape.) In my dreams, society takes this a step farther still and permits things like ball gowns, furry cloaks, togas... Provided that health and safety is considered, I really don't see any reason people in general shouldn't wear whatever sort of clothes they enjoy. The narrowness of acceptable fashion is one of those things I just can't wrap my head around.
posted by gloriouslyincandescent at 7:01 PM on September 3, 2016

fraula, thanks for that WaPo "retailers have been selling us crap clothes" article. I have had the nagging suspicion for at least five years that fashion was going through a crippling case of the stupids (metal studs on shoulders?! ruffles all over the damn place?! pants that are tight and loose in all the wrong areas?!), and it's nice to know it's not just me.
posted by gusandrews at 7:34 PM on September 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

" I thought that there was this whole other grandmother hypothesis - that women who are past childbearing age were actually an asset back on the veldt because they had a lot of knowledge of life stuff and had free time to take care of children."

It's also why they're hypothesized to have insomnia after menopause -- to care for crying babies in the night. And why they're hypothesized to be worth feeding calories after their childbearing years are done, all the baby care.

"I skipped the byline by accident and was surprised halfway through to realize that it was Stacy. Frankly I watched every episode of the show that I could, but she really was all about sanding down the edges of the personal fashion styles of the (mostly) women who were on it."

Oh, man, I always liked her on that show because she made women of unique body types and unusual style choices feel beautiful. But maybe because the episode that really sticks in my mind was the super-kind vegetarian lady who needed space in her abdominal clothes for all the gas-producing veggies she ate at lunch (not being snarky, that was literally what she said!) and Stacy and Clinton helped her find clothes that were flattering and fit her personal style and gave her room for lunch gas instead of the weirdly awkward clothes she was wearing, and that was SO RANDOM as a fashion need and they were so ready to help.

One of the things I like about getting older is that I can wear cooler, bigger jewelry, which for whatever reason is more "appropriate" on women as they age.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 9:43 PM on September 3, 2016 [5 favorites]

I'm turning 51 and I proudly sport my tshirt that reads "Pet Cats, Hail Satan" and as far as I'm concerned, everyone else is doing it wrong.
posted by GospelofWesleyWillis at 10:34 PM on September 3, 2016 [1 favorite]

So please, share: How do you (without outside feedback) understand what looks good on you, what is your personal style, and what are your favorite specific pieces?

I have definitely not done this with outside feedback. I have read blogs and books, I have asked for help, I have tried a lot of different clothes that made me feel terrible.

For a long time I felt like a blank slate. I remember in one of my first jobs examining what literally every woman in the office wore and telling myself "so this is what normal people wear to work." EVERY woman. From the tomboy in button-fronts and slacks to the fashionista in Prada. I would see that some women wore tanks in public and looked put-together and easy - I would try it for myself and wonder why I felt like everyone was staring at my chest. Eventually I realized that what looks appropriate is partly determined by body type. I won't look like the same way a smaller-chested woman looks in a tank.

Before I knew what the show was I picked up Stacey and Clinton's book in a bookstore and read the page about how women with big boobs should wear vee-neecks. I still wear the occasional crew or turtle, but I have a lot more vees in my wardrobe and I like them.

After this thread I went and watched a bunch of WNTW clips, and I realized that I'm really kind of bored with my current wardrobe - inexpensive sheath dresses, straight-leg trousers, and cardigans. I could be wearing things that fit better and feel better. Which for me will probably be about sticking with the same basic concepts but buying better fabrics and more interesting colors and patterns. And throwing out some accessories that I've worn once and then never again, and getting things that work for me. And getting a couple of new bras.
posted by bunderful at 5:42 AM on September 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

Fashion and dress is something I've spent more time on in my life than this nerdy woman would have predicted because

A) I took a 8-year detour in working for women's magazines and reluctantly learned to (in a plodding way) see what they see, trends, colour, structure. Like accidentally learning Italian, I enjoy it now but predict I'll lose fluency.
B) I have a multitude of inner voices who want to dress my 45 year old form in a wide variety of styles including rockabilly, 1970 hippy, 1950s vintage, "like a Jedi" (actually did this in 1980s jump suits with a faux lightsaber) and Disney princess among others and there's a lot of arguing.
C) I have two boys, the eldest of whom is pretty visually sensitive and who has asked me since he was 5 to dress like other moms, which I will do for school events.

I now work in a business formal environment which makes it actually easy because the rules are pretty classic and I thrift black skirts and sheath dresses and then pay for blazers, shell tops (my breasts cause buttoned shoes to gap) and good shoes. Nicest thing about getting out of magazines has been not having to worry about wearing fashion-forward shoes. I express my personalities at work through jewelry or scarves which is a midlife cliche but I find it works...a skull necklace, a Tinkerbell scarf, etc.

On the weekend I will wear the poufy skirt sometimes or the top that displays saggy arms (despite being in martial arts and training my upper body I have skin flaps) and it's true, it makes me look old right away. Not just because of where gravity hits but I think it does say "play" and that makes people question why someone my age is doing the identity through playful clothes dance and then they notice my age. That's fine, good on them, I don't mind. We're both in society together, let's do this. But I'm aware.

It still makes me and my inner teens sad sometimes that the choice is dressing for our body age, or having to non-verbally convey the disconnect. Sometimes I think we need a cafe called Come As You Are, but even that would be an othering.

I will say that when I worked in magazines what I learned wasn't that the fashion editors were judging me or everyone else (a few did, most didn't.) It was that I was judging them and everyone else on caring about clothes differently than I did when I started. After dozens of PR beauty & fashion events I have to say the most likely place to hear people judge on their clothing explicitly is to start the conversation in a group ready to judge soccer moms on their robot-like behavior.

I have thought about this a lot and I've decided clothing is social grammar. Yes, it's partly mandated by some ridiculous commercial forces. But the fact that there's a language goes way beyond what the trendy poem of the day is. Showing up on the playground in full goth gear gives the message that I am in tribe goth first, where showing up in jeans and a plain t-shirt and a necklace announces that I am there in common denominator hey let's talk tribe. Obviously I can be both but non-goth mom who is wondering if I want to be in her tribe will assume she's not gothy enough for me.

Anyways what I liked about What Not To Wear and this piece is that both make clothing intentional. When I was not as aware of the language of style, I wasn't aware of why things worked or didn't work for my body or created a barrier or not. And now I can intentionally dress to be the most at-ease looking person in the room, or make sure my clothes have structure for a presentation or just to feel great, or that I own 18 kinds of healing crystals or whatever. It's nice to know what I'm saying.
posted by warriorqueen at 5:57 AM on September 4, 2016 [14 favorites]

She looks great, and she's wearing little to no makeup, which is actually a bold choice for someone who works in tv. I hate her shoes because they look like she would be unable to run or even walk fast in them. And, phunniemee, I would fave your comment 100 times. Pockets are necessary and women are denied them.

Clothing is full of messages. Every time I wear that pair of capris that doesn't fit well, and a generic tshirt and sweater to my current job, it's a tiny way of expressing my lack of interest. I will not and cannot wear heels or shoes that are not comfortable and flexible. I will actually pay retail for shoes that I can move in. Most everything else is from thrift shops. At 61, I feel free to wear whatever works for me. I might wear a back top, black skirt, and bright teal tights. I might wear a long full skirt or jeans. I will not be wearing a sheath dress, as I will look awful and will not be able to move comfortably. I have a formulaic approach to everyday dressing, because I am not a morning person and I want to be able to get dressed and out the door. Most of my friends have defined a style for themselves; I love the way they dress, whether I would wear it or not.

When you buy your clothes at thrift shops, your options are limited. Many of my skirts don't have pockets. So I have several small purses, most Guatemalan fabrics, that I wear those days. I love wearing cargo capris with a handy leg pocket for my phone. Even when women's clothing has pockets, the pockets are often stupid and my phone ends up on the floor at work or in my car or at a restaurant. (shakes fist at clothing industry) So I guess I dress my age, meaning I'm really over allowing the fashion industry to con me into shoes that damage my body and hobble me, clothing that is stupid expensive, impossible to clean, and gets replaced far before it's worn out, that constricts my movement or ignores weather. Pantyhose are out, so you see women in New York City or Chicago, in winter, barelegged. WTF?
posted by theora55 at 7:22 AM on September 4, 2016 [2 favorites]

How do you (without outside feedback) understand what looks good on you, what is your personal style, and what are your favorite specific pieces?

I'm sure I studied and absorbed "rules" over time through magazines etc. (and movies, pretty sure I was inspired by iconic moments), but it comes down to having tried a thousand pieces and looks, basically. A lot of it in my teens and twenties, when the stakes were low. (Other than identity-related stakes, but no hiring committee was taking notes, for e.g.) Fuschia lace blouse with bustier, short-shorts, and platform boots, check. Diane-Keaton-in-wool, check. Pastel florals with knife-pleated skirts; burgundy cords with fisherman's sweaters; Louise Brooks hair over gothy black and pearls; "beachy" aka basically pyjamas (my favourite and default when no one's around or I'm on vacation). I can ID a rise that fits and tush-friendly pocket placement from across a store. I do enjoy colour, pattern, and texture, and maybe I do have a reasonably reliable internal aesthetic "ping" meter, but I think with enough attempts, and attention, and a bit of basic guidance, patterns emerge stochastically. (I have definitely been wrong - objectively; yes, I will commit to the idea that there are just plain wrong things for certain people to wear - more than once.)

Have described my personal style (for the moment) above - favourite thing, currently, is a navy jersey shirt-dress (belted, buttoned; super easy to wear, and looks ok on me no matter how much sodium I consume). I wish I had the kind of life to justify a red silk halter jumpsuit - and I would wear that, even now, given the opportunity, but that's not the case :( (and I don't have the budget to indulge in gear for weekend dress-up games. Another reason all my things work together is because that's cheapest, honestly).
posted by cotton dress sock at 7:42 AM on September 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

At 48, with a little juice in my caboose I do this:

1. What am I doing today (Today I co-officiate a dear friend's wedding in the midwest) So mid weight black sleevless dress and still long hair down. Polite lipstick . acid green nails.

2. What is that going to say? I do this because while I am a weirdo hermit art girl, what I say makes a difference to the people I am being there for. If I was home, it may be my pajamas till after the chores are done.

3. Do I feel capable of achieving the following today?
- being present ?
-being reasonably within the bounds of what is expected of me?
- looking good- to me.
- playing with the kids at the endlessly long reception with a million people I don't know?

That is all that is important for personal style- dressing in a way that fits what you are doing that makes you feel good.
posted by LuckyMonkey21 at 8:50 AM on September 4, 2016 [4 favorites]

It must be nice to be a thin and conventionally-attractive older woman, Stacy London. And that is all I have to say about that.

At least Trinny and Susannah recognized that not everyone is blessed with an off-the-rack figure on the UK version of the show.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 11:02 AM on September 4, 2016 [1 favorite]

How do you (without outside feedback) understand what looks good on you, what is your personal style, and what are your favorite specific pieces?

Unfortunately I have never been able to achieve understanding of what looks good on me without outside feedback, and even with feedback I'm not sure I trust it. I had a personal rule for a couple of years not to wear baggy, shapeless clothes (which I'm prone to do) and no jersey (it looks crappy fast), but a good friend died in March and I've been wearing baggy shapeless clothes since it was clear she was about to go (this summer I've been wearing mainly midi-length t-shirt dresses and converse sneakers).

I guess the thing is not dressing your age exactly, but not dressing the same way you did when you were in your 20s because you are no longer the same person, although I do honestly still own and wear a couple of things that I bought when I was in my 20s when I was a bit of a clothes horse.

Speaking of all this, when I was helping my friend's family go through her things, among her hundreds and hundreds of drawings were dozens of me from when we were in our 20s, and the way I knew they were me was because I recognized the clothes. I had a visceral reaction to seeing those clothes that I loved so much, drawn by my friend back in the days when time seemed infinite.
posted by maggiemaggie at 11:52 AM on September 4, 2016 [3 favorites]

At least Trinny and Susannah recognized that not everyone is blessed with an off-the-rack figure on the UK version of the show.

Clinton and Stacy very often dressed larger size women, and made them look just as good as any of their other subjects.
posted by orange swan at 4:16 PM on September 5, 2016 [1 favorite]

How do you (without outside feedback) understand what looks good on you, what is your personal style, and what are your favorite specific pieces?

The rise of camera phones has been a real blessing here. In the mirror, my gaze goes like a laser to the parts of my body I don't like. Snapping a quick picture makes it easier for me to see the overall view. And if I'm really on the fence, I can send it to a friend or two for feedback.

There's definitely a discrepancy between my style ideals, my budget and my lifestyle, and lifestyle generally wins - my budget can stretch a bit for really worthwhile pieces, and my style ideals involve a ton more time than I'm actually capable of investing in my appearance. As for what looks good on me, some of it was doing a bit of reading to get a sense of my body lines/volumes and what makes them read differently (e.g. volume/color on bottom if I want to draw attention away from my shoulders and bust), and a fair bit of it was trial and error - I find it really important to have a pleasant tactile experience in my clothes, and to make sure the move with me so I'm not constantly fussing with things. So when I'm trying something on feeling good is critical - I figure if I feel good in something, I can make it look presentable.

My favorite pieces are weekend wear - patchwork skirts made from old t-shirts, striped socks, combat boots (not necessarily worn together). I do occasionally worry that I'm too old for this, but eh. Life is short. For work, I'm wearing a lot of black faux-wrap dresses with big silver earrings, going more for "unobjectionable" than "memorable."
posted by EvaDestruction at 11:55 AM on September 6, 2016

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