Shanksville, Pennsylvania
September 4, 2016 7:02 AM Subscribe
Robert Franz is a ranger for the United States National Park Service, working as “interpretive park ranger." His job is to tell the story of what happened to United Airlines, Flight 93. (SL NYTimes)
A visit requires a roller-coaster journey through the arresting Allegheny Mountains, up and down and up and down, past a Confederate flag here, a Trump sign there
Fifteen years, and that's where we're at. Depressing.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:34 AM on September 4, 2016 [8 favorites]
Fifteen years, and that's where we're at. Depressing.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:34 AM on September 4, 2016 [8 favorites]
This story filled me with so much despair for humanity and none of it has to do with 9/11. Why would someone make the trip all the way out to the memorial and then make statements like the Korean war vet? What is wrong with people? Franz deserves the medal of honor for listening to the careless shit people say and not lashing out at them and telling them to go to hell.
posted by photoslob at 11:31 AM on September 4, 2016 [9 favorites]
posted by photoslob at 11:31 AM on September 4, 2016 [9 favorites]
The article's rendition of the presentation makes it sound, if anything, less mythologized than the version of the Fight 93 story I remember from immediately after 9/11, which was all Todd Beamer, Psalm 23, and "Let's Roll." The park isn't really something I'd visit, but if you're going to do it, it's nice to see the focus more on everyone on the flight.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 12:23 PM on September 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 12:23 PM on September 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
All of the heroic actions of the passengers may have occurred, but it doesn't change all of the the objective evidence that the plane was shot down by an F-16. Cheney did not have to acknowledge "five days later that President Bush had authorised the Air Force pilots to shoot down hijacked commercial aircraft."
I saw with my own eyes, on the news coverage of the day (9/11), the words "Vice President Cheney supports President Bush's decision to shoot down commercial aircraft" that remained in the air after the "loud and clear orders to land at the nearest airport". Few would blame the government for this necessity, but it seems that the public has been eager to lap up this alternative version of reality, which makes acknowledging the other unnecessary.
posted by spock at 2:45 PM on September 4, 2016 [6 favorites]
I saw with my own eyes, on the news coverage of the day (9/11), the words "Vice President Cheney supports President Bush's decision to shoot down commercial aircraft" that remained in the air after the "loud and clear orders to land at the nearest airport". Few would blame the government for this necessity, but it seems that the public has been eager to lap up this alternative version of reality, which makes acknowledging the other unnecessary.
posted by spock at 2:45 PM on September 4, 2016 [6 favorites]
spock, you're citing something that was written less than a year after 9/11, when trutherism was in full bloom, and everything in it has been refuted.
posted by Halloween Jack at 3:31 PM on September 4, 2016 [18 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 3:31 PM on September 4, 2016 [18 favorites]
The article's rendition of the presentation makes it sound, if anything, less mythologized than the version of the Fight 93 story I remember from immediately after 9/11, which was all Todd Beamer, Psalm 23, and "Let's Roll."
Yeah, most parks/historic sites/museums/interpretive centers usually are the same way. It's the public that brings the mythos to the site and the site tries to do what it can to talk through that - with varying degrees of success.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:39 PM on September 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah, most parks/historic sites/museums/interpretive centers usually are the same way. It's the public that brings the mythos to the site and the site tries to do what it can to talk through that - with varying degrees of success.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:39 PM on September 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
I wouldn’t be too down on the Korean vet. Nasty war, Korea. And the author gives us less than one line, and that without context.
I haven’t seen the place, but if these are any indication, I can see the man's point. No accounting for taste, of course, but compare this to, say, the Vietnam memorial, decide yourself which one does its job with more dignity and respect.
I did just notice that neither the article nor the government website gives any indication of agency in the whole affair. Of the high-jackers, I mean. Does the site itself?
posted by IndigoJones at 6:12 PM on September 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
I haven’t seen the place, but if these are any indication, I can see the man's point. No accounting for taste, of course, but compare this to, say, the Vietnam memorial, decide yourself which one does its job with more dignity and respect.
I did just notice that neither the article nor the government website gives any indication of agency in the whole affair. Of the high-jackers, I mean. Does the site itself?
posted by IndigoJones at 6:12 PM on September 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
spock, you're citing something that was written less than a year after 9/11,
when trutherism was in full bloom, and everything in it has been refuted.
spock is also relating a memory you've ignored to address their supporting citation.
do you mean to imply the memory is false? but let's say it is...
If you grew up in the 70s in which cold war propaganda was pervasive, how quickly jets were scrambled at any hint of danger was a popular topic. My memory is six minutes. Flight 93 was in the air after the first tower was struck for an hour, was it? That flight was most likely escorted. As to how monitored it could be, how any decision was made to delay its downing for people on board to regain control, or all of those events coinciding without coordination is, of course, possible, but the official story is the simplest.
Sacrificing the lives of the airborne to spare those on the ground is the sort of action bureaucrats and politicians adore-- what the public is allowed to know. The more politically disruptive the phenomenon, as years pass, what people knew and when they knew it is somewhat revealed. What's plausible depends on one's proximity to power.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 7:50 PM on September 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
when trutherism was in full bloom, and everything in it has been refuted.
spock is also relating a memory you've ignored to address their supporting citation.
do you mean to imply the memory is false? but let's say it is...
If you grew up in the 70s in which cold war propaganda was pervasive, how quickly jets were scrambled at any hint of danger was a popular topic. My memory is six minutes. Flight 93 was in the air after the first tower was struck for an hour, was it? That flight was most likely escorted. As to how monitored it could be, how any decision was made to delay its downing for people on board to regain control, or all of those events coinciding without coordination is, of course, possible, but the official story is the simplest.
Sacrificing the lives of the airborne to spare those on the ground is the sort of action bureaucrats and politicians adore-- what the public is allowed to know. The more politically disruptive the phenomenon, as years pass, what people knew and when they knew it is somewhat revealed. What's plausible depends on one's proximity to power.
posted by lazycomputerkids at 7:50 PM on September 4, 2016 [1 favorite]
Flight 93 was in the air after the first tower was struck for an hour, was it? That flight was most likely escorted.
Hundreds, thousands of flights were in the air for more than an hour after the first tower was hit. Flight 93 was nowhere near the last plane still aloft, and the Air Force didn't have nearly enough planes to escort all of them.
posted by Etrigan at 8:19 PM on September 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
Hundreds, thousands of flights were in the air for more than an hour after the first tower was hit. Flight 93 was nowhere near the last plane still aloft, and the Air Force didn't have nearly enough planes to escort all of them.
posted by Etrigan at 8:19 PM on September 4, 2016 [4 favorites]
I haven’t seen the place, but if these are any indication, I can see the man's point.
A couple of years ago, I drove from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh, and on the way back, we stopped at Shanksville to see the memorial. Those kiosks are sort of an informational plaza before you actually go out to the memorial. It's context for visitors. The actual memorial is much closer to the Vietnam War memorial.
When I went, it was midsummer, and it was very quiet and respectful. The NPS Rangers were excellent interpreters, not especially dramatic retellings but humane. The entire site takes special care to remind visitors that this is a burial site for families to come and remember their loved ones. There are parts of the memorial that are restricted to only those family members.
posted by gladly at 9:59 PM on September 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
A couple of years ago, I drove from Philadelphia to Pittsburgh, and on the way back, we stopped at Shanksville to see the memorial. Those kiosks are sort of an informational plaza before you actually go out to the memorial. It's context for visitors. The actual memorial is much closer to the Vietnam War memorial.
When I went, it was midsummer, and it was very quiet and respectful. The NPS Rangers were excellent interpreters, not especially dramatic retellings but humane. The entire site takes special care to remind visitors that this is a burial site for families to come and remember their loved ones. There are parts of the memorial that are restricted to only those family members.
posted by gladly at 9:59 PM on September 4, 2016 [3 favorites]
It'd be super-great if this thread were about the memorial itself and not about any "inside job" bullshit. I mean, what's next, is someone going to saying was Black Helicopters that shot Inited 93 down or that there were chemtrails or something?
This is not THE X-FILES.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:23 AM on September 5, 2016 [9 favorites]
This is not THE X-FILES.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 2:23 AM on September 5, 2016 [9 favorites]
Mod note: One deleted. This really isn't a post about 9/11 conspiracy theories, sorry.
posted by taz (staff) at 5:34 AM on September 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
posted by taz (staff) at 5:34 AM on September 5, 2016 [5 favorites]
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But I would actually be fine with that, if the whole shebang were ignored every year. I'm going to be clear across the country on the day this year, in Yosemite park, where I most likely will not see another human being and I think I'm looking forward to that.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:31 AM on September 4, 2016 [9 favorites]