The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale

September 7, 2016 1:06 PM

The Drug of Choice for the Age of Kale: Ariel Levy, writing for the New Yorker, looks into ayahuasca as a newly trendy experience in Brooklyn and Silicon Valley. She then experiences it herself with some millennials in a Brooklyn studio (a "windowless vomitorium").

Apparently, the resurgence of ayahuasca has become mainstream enough that Susan Sarandon discussed her experiences recently on Marc Maron's WTF podcast. She joins Sting and Lindsay Lohan, as well as Tori Amos and Father John Misty, among many celebrity fans of the psychoactive tea.

However, despite its popularity and no dearth of anecdotal evidence that it can be therapeutic, there remains a lack of scientific research on its effects, due to its classification as a Schedule I drug in the United States and illegal status in much of the Western world.

Previous "journalist tries a drug" accounts here and here.

posted by witchen (83 comments total)

Shame on the New Yorker of all magazines for making the "vomitorium" mistake.

(Vomitoriums are passageways for masses of people to leave/enter large spaces like stadiums, not places to throw up)
posted by explosion at 1:16 PM on September 7, 2016 [83 favorites]

> And I felt content and vaguely delighted and temporarily free.

I achieved the same result with two pints of beer on Monday afternoon.
posted by The Card Cheat at 1:25 PM on September 7, 2016 [21 favorites]

(Vomitoriums are passageways for masses of people to leave/enter large spaces like stadiums, not places to throw up)

Shame on you for failing to decline the plurals correctly. I believe you mean "vomitoria" and "stadia."
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:28 PM on September 7, 2016 [72 favorites]

I tried this and I saw entities in my visions that were out of network; still paying that off.
posted by thelonius at 1:31 PM on September 7, 2016 [18 favorites]

Despite my rudimentary Latin instruction at the high school level, I decided to use the English plurals in my English sentence criticizing a magazine published in English.
posted by explosion at 1:32 PM on September 7, 2016 [33 favorites]

Shame on you for failing to decline the plurals correctly. I believe you mean "vomitoria" and "stadia."

I suppose you'll insist that we also put into the correct case words such as vomitoriis?
posted by clockzero at 1:42 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

vomitorio, vomitorias, vomitoriat
vomitoriamus, vomitoriatis, vomitoriant
posted by Hypatia at 1:53 PM on September 7, 2016 [14 favorites]

3/6 posts arguing about Latin grammar.

I love it here.
posted by percor at 1:53 PM on September 7, 2016 [55 favorites]

vomitorio, vomitorias, vomitoriat
vomitoriamus, vomitoriatis, vomitoriant

Let's call the whole thing off
posted by happyroach at 1:55 PM on September 7, 2016 [98 favorites]

So much better than being surrounded by a bunch of ignorami.

"Oh no, what have I done..."
posted by percor at 1:56 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

"Those who are vomiting they go the house?"
posted by Strange Interlude at 2:01 PM on September 7, 2016 [25 favorites]

I was reading this earlier and thought about posting it. I did like the background about the chemical basis of the hallucinations. I decided against it because there are more and more of these types of thinkpieces about the dull and short-sighted appropriations of cultural traditions (even those that involve exciting hallucinogenics) by privileged bourgeois techie-types looking for some sort of bullshit enlightenment, maaaaaan

This digs into that a little bit (mostly by letting the western 'practitioners' skewer themselves).

Still, this paragraph sold me:

The McKennas were sure they were on to something revelatory, something that would change the course of human history. “I and my companions have been selected to understand and trigger the gestalt wave of understanding that will be the hyperspacial zeitgeist,” Dennis wrote in his journal. Their work was not always easy. During one session, the brothers experienced a flash of mutual telepathy, but then Dennis hurled his glasses and all his clothes into the jungle and, for several days, lost touch with “consensus reality.” It was a small price to pay. The “plant teachers” seemed to have given them “access to a vast database,” Dennis wrote, “the mystical library of all human and cosmic knowledge.”

posted by Existential Dread at 2:02 PM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

If the NYer writer didn't get to party down with self-transforming machine elves from hyperspace, she missed out. McKenna knew his way around hallucinogens.
posted by Doktor Zed at 2:16 PM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

vomitorio, vomitorias, vomitoriat

Vomitorio is not a verb in Latin. I think these are, though:

Vomo (3rd dec.): To be sick, to throw up.

-Vomo, vomis, vomit; vomitus, vomitis, vomunt.

Vomito (1st dec.): To throw up continuously.

- Vomito, vomitas, vomitat; vomitamus, vomitatis, vomitant.
posted by clockzero at 2:22 PM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

I'm disappointed that this isn't about kale.
posted by heatherlogan at 2:26 PM on September 7, 2016 [13 favorites]

The ayahuasca session described in the article seems chaotic and emotionally dangerous. Intense hallucinogen experiences can make people really vulnerable. Without good leadership to keep everyone feeling comfortable and supported, or at least better sound insulation from thumping bass, people can have a bad ride with lasting effects.

This is serious shit, and I don't get the sense it was being done respectfully here. Maybe that's a consequence of prohibition, but I don't think it's excusable.
posted by andrewpcone at 2:29 PM on September 7, 2016 [31 favorites]

I can't get past the notion that if a substance makes you vomit, it's probably not a good idea to ingest it.
posted by DrAstroZoom at 2:48 PM on September 7, 2016 [7 favorites]

smug correction

smug correction of smug correction

first smug correcter: hdu smugly correct me

[an orgy of smug correcting ensues]

passer-by: i love all these smug corrections

disappointed kale fan: where's the kale

- METAFILTER -
posted by poffin boffin at 2:51 PM on September 7, 2016 [157 favorites]

i'm just here for the puking
posted by burgerrr at 2:56 PM on September 7, 2016 [7 favorites]

She joins Sting ... among many celebrity fans of the psychoactive tea

Tea in the Sahara ... with you?
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 3:04 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Michael Muhammad Knight: I Tripped with Allah and Wrote a Book About It
posted by NoMich at 3:06 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

“I took them over to the Big Island, where my brother and his wife had purchased some land. They planted it in the forest, and it happened to like the forest—a lot. So now it’s all over the place.”

So, I guess the enlightenment doesn't extend to "don't introduce invasive species into a delicate ecosystem, you ass."
posted by Mitrovarr at 3:09 PM on September 7, 2016 [38 favorites]

I'm disappointed that this isn't about kale.

Kale makes me vomitorious.
not really
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:18 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Still, this paragraph sold me:

All this needs is a reference to what round of funding their startup is on, and it's exactly like waiting in line for coffee in San Francisco.
posted by bradbane at 3:24 PM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

Ten years of therapy in a few hours? Yeah, okay. That's not impossible, but...first let me say that I am aware that my experience, which I am about to share, is entirely subjective and therefore not universal. I am also aware that street drugs and psychedelics are fun as hell, freaky-deaky, and sometimes totes therapeutic. But one of the things that's been great about ten years of actual psychotherapy is that the changes I make are changes I make willfully & consciously, and that the things I discover I discover soberly and consciously. Unlike a lot of hallucinogenic trips (and I have had a few), such insights and changes are not poorly-integrated, short-term, state-specific peak experiences. They are the product of slooow-paced, hard, interpersonal work and therefore tend to be more lasting. Also, talk therapy, for me, has had the added benefit of not feeding into the ugly, boring circus of cultural appropriation/spiritual materialism on display here, nor does it put money in the hands of the so-called "shamans" that administer the Medicine to whoever will pay the fee. (Although, admittedly, it does put money in the hands of my shrink...who has been trained, licensed and totally earns it sans nebulous snakeoil promises of shortcuts to Total Transformation.)
posted by Bob Regular at 3:36 PM on September 7, 2016 [26 favorites]

Relevant, from The Onion
posted by louche mustachio at 3:42 PM on September 7, 2016 [14 favorites]

I came home reeking of vomit and sage and looking like I’d come from hell

Meh. I got the same results from an ill-advised order at a popup food truck festival.
posted by Kafkaesque at 3:49 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

I've tried kale but it's always been impossibly tough and bitter. Kale salads, kale soups, kale chips, you name it. I haven't tried it with ayahuasca, though, maybe that's an idea.
posted by Joe in Australia at 3:56 PM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

I'm in favour of going right for the DMT and skipping the vomiting.
posted by juiceCake at 3:56 PM on September 7, 2016 [11 favorites]

I haven't read the article, but I can't imagine it's more entertaining than reading you all's comments just now to my wife, who teaches Latin.
posted by biogeo at 3:59 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

I got the same results from an ill-advised order at a popup food truck festival.

southwest beercan chicken tartare
posted by Existential Dread at 4:04 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

So who's tried this? Is it hoppy? I like my psychedelic teas good and hoppy.
posted by turbid dahlia at 4:08 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

ayahuasca as a newly trendy experience in Brooklyn and Silicon Valley

Paging Erowid Recruiter
posted by exogenous at 4:15 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

I'd like to try it sometime, although I'm in no hurry. Versus other easily available psychedelics, which seem to produce the same positive and negative outcomes, the suffering and "cleansing" aspects look like a really good match for the christian norms and myths present in this culture.
posted by MillMan at 4:23 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Ayahuasca, like kale, is no joy ride.
Word.
posted by MtDewd at 4:45 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

So who's tried this? Is it hoppy?

It tastes like urine. It's extremely bitter and acidic. Plus it's warm so that makes it even more pee-like.
posted by cazoo at 4:48 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

why do you know what pee tastes like tho
posted by poffin boffin at 5:01 PM on September 7, 2016 [21 favorites]

It's very bitter, in my experience. The taste did not make me feel sick, but it wasn't easy to drink. The nauseated feeling took a while to come on. But I have associated the nausea with that taste now. It's still vivid in my mind, though I only took it once.

I had a few truly significant and life-changing experiences on LSD (out of many), but I have no doubt that it could happen on ayahuasca. It's all paths to the same place. I do think ayahuasca may be a better path in some ways. It's not a "party" drug, and the unpleasant effects don't allow it to be a casual decision. It's also typically taken in a ceremony, along with at least one very experienced guide, and it's intended for spiritual growth. I wouldn't trade my fun LSD and shroom trips for anything, but I think most people using psychedelics would benefit from the kind of intention and precaution that ayahuasca is associated with.
posted by krinklyfig at 5:11 PM on September 7, 2016 [11 favorites]

So who's tried this? Is it hoppy? I like my psychedelic teas good and hoppy.

No, that's not at all how I'd describe it. It's more like how a young child imagines the taste of medicine. Very bitter, but in a way that lets you know it's supposed to be medicinal, not poisonous. It's pretty nasty tho. It's kind of a thick fluid with sediment... Not something you're going to enjoy, but it's bearable.

(I don't know what urine tastes like.)
posted by krinklyfig at 5:31 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

I don't know what urine tastes like.

It's awful - tastes like piss
posted by thelonius at 5:37 PM on September 7, 2016 [31 favorites]

smug correction

smug correction of smug correction

first smug correcter: hdu smugly correct me

[an orgy of smug correcting ensues]

passer-by: i love all these smug corrections

disappointed kale fan: where's the kale

- METAFILTER -

I am choosing not to dispute the implication that "smug" is really a fair characterization, but it's taking an immense toll on me
posted by clockzero at 5:51 PM on September 7, 2016 [6 favorites]

Hey, your local shaman can probably use the cash!
posted by atoxyl at 5:56 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

She joins Sting and Lindsay Lohan, as well as Tori Amos and Father John Misty, among many celebrity fans of the psychoactive tea.

I don't drink coffee, I take tea, my dear...
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 5:57 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

tbh any time someone says "actually i think you meant X" here i immediately imagine hermione granger bossily saying "it's leviOHsa, not levioSAH"
posted by poffin boffin at 5:59 PM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

Thanks witchen for posting this fascinating article. Way more complex and interesting (but less delicious) than kale.
posted by heatherlogan at 6:27 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

tbh any time someone says "actually i think you meant X" here i immediately imagine hermione granger bossily saying "it's leviOHsa, not levioSAH"

It's a pretty favorable comparison, tbh
posted by clockzero at 6:28 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

why do you know what pee tastes like tho

Oh, hey, the mundane outed himself.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:34 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Kale isn't all that bad. Really.
posted by jonmc at 6:42 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Lindsay Lohan isn't exactly the poster girl for wise choices.
posted by Ideefixe at 7:29 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

Does she eat kale?
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:44 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Yes, but apparently she chases it down with ayahuasca tea.
posted by mosk at 8:15 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

I'm torn because nearly everyone in the article seems terrible, including possibly the author, and Williamsburg next to a thumping nightclub sounds like the worst possible place to have an ayahuasca ceremony. The one she attended seemed to be run rather ineptly and with little respect for tradition or the nature of the experience (Beatles strummed on acoustic guitar? really?) There is also no getting around the culturally appropriative nature of so much of this. So pretty much everything in here annoyed me and the kale framing is obnoxious, even if it does reflect the reality of wellness gurus and soylent techies finding a new trend. And yet... I believe this is the real thing. For me it was the equivalent of years of therapy, and it was needed. A lot of well-worn ruts in my brain had the opportunity to thoughtfully rearrange themselves, I saw many situations from my past in entirely new ways, and I got some psychological answers I was seeking in a fairly direct way. I took what I learned there and I'm still building on it and fixing some problems in my life, after years of ignoring them. It's an unpleasant experience, but I do think it's one that - with the right set, setting, context, respect for tradition, and integrative approach, and being around other respectful, quiet people - lots of caveats there - it's a profoundly beneficial experience that could help many. But yeah, the article and people in it did it few favors, and *shrug* this kind of thing is the definition of ymmv. Also puking. There's puking.
posted by naju at 9:00 PM on September 7, 2016 [9 favorites]

Dear AskMe: What events can a middle-aged man attend so he can ask much younger people in the crowd for hallucinogens, while not be immediately suspected as a narc? Asking for a friend. (Note: going to an elementary school to eat paste or huff rubber cement doesn't count.)
posted by not_on_display at 9:02 PM on September 7, 2016 [8 favorites]

Does she eat kale?
Yes, but apparently she chases it down with ayahuasca tea.

Personally, I prefer chasing kale with a dab or two of Sriracha sauce, which may not be revelatory but is certainly gustatory.
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:03 PM on September 7, 2016 [2 favorites]

I asked if they made a living this way. “We manifest abundance wherever we go,” she told me. Her boyfriend added, “Consciousness is its own economy.”

The medicine does not seem to be boosting their intelligence.

If all you do is vomit the spirits are letting you off easy. There are a number of reports of simultaneous vomit + diarrhea.

(I speculate if you are native to their zip codes they don't give you the flu symptoms.)
posted by bukvich at 10:05 PM on September 7, 2016 [1 favorite]

Dear AskMe: What events can a middle-aged man attend so he can ask much younger people in the crowd for hallucinogens, while not be immediately suspected as a narc?

Apparently the high-school Latin Club will hook you up.
posted by um at 10:50 PM on September 7, 2016 [15 favorites]

Dear AskMe: What events can a middle-aged man attend so he can ask much younger people in the crowd for hallucinogens, while not be immediately suspected as a narc?

Try your regional burner events. There are almost always some sort of "Decompression" event in the Fall.
posted by WaylandSmith at 10:52 PM on September 7, 2016 [4 favorites]

Hmmm...if doing ayahuasca in a ceremony is culturally appropriative, does that mean that there's a chosen group of people that are the only ones allowed to be endowed with that psychedelic knowledge?
posted by gucci mane at 11:19 PM on September 7, 2016 [3 favorites]

why do you know what pee tastes like tho

You know, you live long enough and you have certain experiences you weren't necessarily planning for, one thing leads to another...

Don't ask questions unless you're prepared for the answer.
posted by bongo_x at 11:56 PM on September 7, 2016 [5 favorites]

Had to come out of usual lurkdom for this one. There's so much I want to say, and so little grace with which to say it.

The ayahuasca conversation has been had several times on Metafilter, as would indicate several previouslies. What makes ayahuasca different from other "recreational drugs" is the emphasis on the relationship between the shaman and the plant, the plant and the partaker. Most of us taking prescription medication pop a pill without a second thought, without effort or our own contribution. Other kinds of hallucinogenics are treated similarly: strap up and get ready for the ride.

With ayahuasca, the relationship has been nurtured from the start. Any shaman worth their salt won't toss their labor of divine craft to the highest bidder without strings attached - fasting, preparatory ritual, etc. It is precisely these strings that will allow the participant to truly journey with Madre Yage. Humility, gratitude, and sincere offering invest some skin in the game.

Myself, I was lucky enough to experience the plant medicine in combination with other rituals over a long weekend in Mexico. We energized the earth by offering song and dance for several hours, along with fire and drumming. We were cleansed beforehand by temescal (sweat lodge) and drank waters infused with ceremonially harvested sage. We went to the hillside to see which of the leaves would call us. Everything I'm saying can be met with the hardest MeFi eye roll, but that doesn't change the fact that all events leading up to the ceremony were intentional. They were an offering, a submission, a radical acceptance of releasing control, asking the spirit to take our hands and show us the way. Try asking anyone the last time they approached a party drug with that attitude.

To be certain, it wasn't 100% "authentic" - the shamans who administered the tea weren't the same ones who brewed it. Nevertheless, I'm eternally thankful to have had the guidance of Don Evangelino Murayay through his recordings (Amazon link). His renditions of the icaros are second to none. I still fall asleep to the first two (first, second) when I have a fitful night.

We've become so accustomed to throwing money at our problems and our desires without risking anything of our selves, our sweat or emotional equity. It's really no different from the disconnect we have with our food, our clothes, the buildings and vehicles we use to house and transport our bodies. "Cultural appropriation" is a term thrown around a lot, but it's a smokescreen that distracts from the real problem: we often aren't willing to become part of the process it takes to create the gifts of our world.

I'm a United Statesian and I didn't grow up with this - the only reason I've managed to escape the appropriation accusation is because I'm Latina and the right color of brown. I grew up in Southern California with jenky Spanish because my immigrant parents refused to speak the language for fear of holding us back. I've spent a lot of time straddled between two worlds, unable to lay claim to either. It wasn't until I stopped judging myself, participated in the preparations and welcomed her as she welcomed me did the bullshit cultural constructs fall away. We're all human and no one has a monopoly on any of the given ways we make life beautiful.

Ayahuasca isn't a drug you take, it's an experience you create.
posted by idealist at 11:56 PM on September 7, 2016 [31 favorites]

Ayahuasca isn't a drug you take, it's an experience you create.

Back when I had regular access to LSD, I would trip on the major solar holidays and would always be very ritualized about it. Setting the atmosphere, selecting activities, usually getting up early and having a breakfast of fruit and toast, then dosing and diving into the variety of opportunities I had planned for the day, whether they were art or going to the park or whatever. I often took people with me on these trips, and they were pretty universally regarded as some of the best, most insight-building, CTRL-ALT-DEL life refreshing reboots by everyone who shared them.

It's certainly not the depth and level of the kind of ritual you describe, but it does raise a good point -- that taking hallucinogens might be an experience better served by focussing intent on the journey.
posted by hippybear at 12:23 AM on September 8, 2016 [12 favorites]

Dear AskMe: What events can a middle-aged man attend so he can ask much younger people in the crowd for hallucinogens, while not be immediately suspected as a narc?

Said middle-aged man needs to discover the darknet.
posted by PeterMcDermott at 1:04 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

> Shame on the New Yorker of all magazines for making the "vomitorium" mistake. [60 favorites]

I wonder how many people clicked on the link because they saw someone wrong on the internet. 'Don't ascribe to stupidity what can adequately be explained by trolling'
posted by I-Write-Essays at 2:20 AM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

I have not tried "real" ayahuasca, only analogous potions, but my experiences have been of a gentle dissolution of myself as an independent being, followed by a profound sense of empathy and unity with the beautiful universe, of omnipresent benevolent loving oneness. I was everything and everything was me, everything was love, and everything was happening exactly as it was supposed to go, both for myself and the cosmos at large.

It kinda bums me out to think that my favorite hallucinogen is turning into some kind of hipster fad, but on the other hand, I can't think of anything certain segments of American culture could use more of than an excess of empathy.
posted by Feyala at 2:43 AM on September 8, 2016 [7 favorites]

Is it common in New Yorker articles like these to introduce people by highlighting their ethnic heritage? I realize that this may add a sense of visual immediacy to the content, but it seems like an unnecessary add-on, given that gatherings like these in New York tend to reflect the ethnic diversity of the city. Why not describe clothing and occupations and stick to that? This is a serious and non-snarky question.
posted by Gordion Knott at 4:28 AM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

I've tried kale but it's always been impossibly tough and bitter.

Portuguese kale stew! The bitterness rounds out the heat and fatty unctiousness of extra-hot chourico (NOT chorizo!) sausage, and adds a musky earthiness to the dish. Just get rid of the stems and ribs, and it softens pretty nicely after a long simmer, chewy but not tough. I prefer beans to potatoes, as they can bring some flavor and texture along with the starch, where potatoes just get lost in the background.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:55 AM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

I have a good friend from Ecuador, and there is a shaman in her family. Ten years ago she was telling me about clueless and entitled trust fund kids bopping down to the global south to try ayahuasca. For the most part, she said, people entered into the ceremony with full respect, even if they didn't entirely know what they were getting into. But there were also people who clearly did not have their head in the right space, thinking they were going to experience some kind of ultratrip, and were rudely awakened once the vomiting started.

The idea that folks would bring this back north and use it pretty much as a party drug with quasi-spiritual overtones would horrify her.
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 8:18 AM on September 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

If a doctor I trusted gave me a dose of medicine and said that it would be absolutely effective, but only if taken as part of a ritualistic ceremony, I'd be out the door like a shot. By the time she mentioned the part about feeling like being torn to pieces and dying a thousand times a second for two hours, she'd be talking to an empty room.
posted by Flexagon at 9:13 AM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

I think the fictional film made about this is called "Embrace of the Serpent." In the film, the effects of the healing plant are contrasted with the affect of another psychoactive plant, rubber.
posted by eustatic at 9:24 AM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Hallucinogens have always let me down. I've done acid twice and from the hype I was expecting to see Bo Diddley dancing on a flying pie. All I got was vapor trails.
posted by jonmc at 9:50 AM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

People generally are too casual about all these traditionally used psychoactive plants and fungi. All of them have ceremonies associated with their use.
My parents went to a tribal area of Southern Mexico and participated in a mushroom ceremony. They had to confess their all their sins, they had to fast and abstain from alcohol and sex. There was a two week preparatory period. The tribe in question wanted the whole world to participate in their ceremonies but in the proper manner.
If you are doing it respectfully and correctly it's not dangerous. Done incorrectly and without respect these plants can kill you or render you insane.
I'm not going to start in on cultural appropriation. Doing any of this with respect isn't cultural appropriation. Doing it without respect is plain risky and stupid. Maybe some of the less than real 'shamans' are participating in cultural appropriation.
It's interesting that with ayahuasca the plant which helps it work is an herbal MAOI. MAOI are not to be mixed with certain foods, pickled foods, smoked meats or smoked fish, alcohol etc. this can be deadly. Maybe some of the bad reactions are due to dietary factors and maybe this explains the fasting and dietary restrictions and changes prior to using.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 9:56 AM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

Hallucinogens have always let me down. I've done acid twice and from the hype I was expecting to see Bo Diddley dancing on a flying pie. All I got was vapor trails.
posted by jonmc at 9:50 AM on September 8
[1 favorite −] Favorite added! [!]

I was told by a couple people one a curendera, and one a person who looked after people on LSD trips that people who do not experience visions on strong hallucinogens have perfectly integrated personalities. Don't know how true this is.
posted by Katjusa Roquette at 10:03 AM on September 8, 2016

Hallucinogens have always let me down. I've done acid twice and from the hype I was expecting to see Bo Diddley dancing on a flying pie. All I got was vapor trails.

Same here, although I did mushrooms several times. It was pretty much just some mild visual quirks like 70's movie rendition of tripping and feeling kind of shitty for a really long time and not being able to sleep.
posted by bongo_x at 11:03 AM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

why do you know what pee tastes like tho

Oh, stop it. How do you not know? Don't you have a single curious bone in your body? Whatever happened to the spirit of scientific investigation?
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:47 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

I'm actually quite curious; but in this case I'm satisfied with gleaning sufficient empirical data second-hand from the scientific investigations of others.
posted by Greg_Ace at 4:06 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Some people like formal spiritual ritual with their psychedelics; others find God at a Grateful Dead show. The division between Leary and the Merry Pranksters continues...

Clearly, set and setting matter, but I also think that presuming that people who take drugs in a "recreational" situation are shallow hedonists while those who do so with a shaman are deep spiritual seekers is seriously problematic.
posted by Maias at 4:12 PM on September 8, 2016 [3 favorites]

That may be the case, but at least for the plant in this FPP, approaching it with intentionality is the only way I can imagine it being worthwhile. If you're looking for hedonism, you'll just end up with a really bad trip at best; traumatic and deeply triggering experiences are not uncommon. It's not something you take lightly. You'll also stand a choice of ruining the experience for everyone else around you, like the ranting woman in the article. Maybe you don't need to buy into all the spiritual stuff. But ritual intention, a spirit of seeking, quiet reverence, and introspection are extremely important. They're also things that people are not used to in western secular culture, and I find that somewhat tragic. If any of this sounds overblown to you, you might not have experienced this particular hallucinogen. It's different from others you might've taken.
posted by naju at 4:33 PM on September 8, 2016 [4 favorites]

And when I say "traumatic and deeply triggering experiences are not uncommon", I mean that seriously, but also not in an altogether bad way. There's some discussion of it being a treatment for PTSD. I've heard elsewhere that it made someone revisit the trauma of their sexual abuse and healed the pain around it.
posted by naju at 4:39 PM on September 8, 2016 [1 favorite]

Whatever happened to the spirit of scientific investigation?

i flushed it down the toilet with the pee
posted by poffin boffin at 5:17 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Yeah, I've done the whole Go To Peru Do Ayahuasca In The Jungle thing. My experience was a mixed bag. The first ceremony was everything I had hoped it would be. Sort of like a mental housecleaning, combined with a near-indescribable sense of peace; like I was being cradled by the galactic mother. The second ceremony was horrible. A phantasmagoria. Probably because the shaman increased my dose by 50%. That was after I asked his assistant to step up my dose "a teeny tiny bit more." Yeah, I guess it doesn't help that the shaman's assistant was a horse's ass, and that the shaman himself didn't speak a lick of English (although I have every indication that the shaman himself was the real goddamn deal.) So, lesson learned : speak the same language as the shaman. Third ceremony, nothing great happened. Did I mention the shaman's assistant was a horse's ass? Wouldn't let me lay down during the ceremony no matter how many hours I spent dry-heaving. Pompous piece of shit.

So, I dunno, what did I get out of it? I mean, this was after a lifetime of psychedelic use. Wasn't my first rodeo by any stretch, not even my 100th. Not even my first intense DMT experience. Or even my hundredth. So, forgive me for being cynical, but all of this, all of this psychedelic revolution stuff, it's all about the self. Okay, in their native cultural contexts, psychedelics are interwoven with the culture, serve a societal benefit. But everyone talking about it now, all the magazine articles you read about it, it's all about the self, self self self self self. Who does ayahuasca and then is inspired to go off and do things for other people? And then actually goes and does things for other people? Not too many, in my experience.

Okay okay okay, so, put that aside. What if people are having trouble with themselves? What if psychedelics can help them? Okay, so, psychedelics can give you insight. But from my own experience, insight is of very limited utility. I can't tell you how many times I came to some great, groundbreaking realization, but then when it came time to apply that to my everyday life, I came up short. It doesn't take much to say, "I really need to change", but actually changing yourself is really fucking hard.

Look, if you want to do psychedelics, that's fine. I think it's ridiculous they're illegal. In fact, if psychedelics had never been illegal, I can only imagine how many bad trips could have been avoided. How much of that paranoia abyss zone is caused by the possibility of getting caught, or the knowledge that you're doing something very much outside of society? If you look at any indigenous culture anywhere in the world, if there's some psychoactive plant or mushroom that grows around them, they do it. Make no mistake, they make it part of their culture and it has a place. And we should do that, too. I think it's absurd that psychedelic voyagers must glean their instruction book from the internet and assorted urban legends. And I don't deny there is real research to be done here, that these drugs can be used as medicines to help people.

I guess I'm just turned off by the breathless hippie dippie mystical panacea bullshit talk surrounding ayahuasca and other drugs. Drugs can play tricks on you, pull the wool over your eyes. MDMA can make you feel more loving, but that doesn't mean the people around you instantly love you more, even if they're on MDMA. Special K can make you feel like you've made some great telepathic insight if you take enough of it, but when you come down, you're still there and the world's still there, and not much has changed, and you haven't really brought anything back with you, and you feel kinda dumb and disoriented. Likewise, psychedelics may change a few hours of your life, but that doesn't mean they'll change your actual life. Sometimes what you're feeling is merely the effects of the drug.

If you want to expand your mind, read a book.
posted by panama joe at 6:33 PM on September 8, 2016 [14 favorites]

Way back inna day, I had a roomate leave a ziplock sandwich bag full of shrooms in the freezer after she moved out. I asked her if it was OK if I could try them, and she said, sure, eat the whole thing, easier than getting them back to her.

I misunderstood. I thought she meant the dose was to eat the whole thing. So I did.

I was, back then, a Big Dude, with a chemical tolerance that was off the charts. I used to think any sort of painkiller you ate - aspirin, tylenol, ibuprofin, vicodin - was a scam, as they did nothing for me.

Turned out it was the exact right dose.

I watched the woodgrain move on the floor like water through a river. I chatted with interesting people online, and my brain, in realtime, undid word-wrap so I could have the pleasure of seeing whole sentences buuuulge out the side of the chat window so I could read them left-to-right without a break.

I was advised by someone online not to look into a mirror, so I did. It was pretty boring, until I closed one eye, and saw half of my face grey and decay and slump into a zombie-rictus, Dorian Gray style, and I found this hilarious. I closed that one and opened the other, and saw just my face, until I looked closer, and saw a pig-creature reflected in my eye, yelling at me angrily. I knew it would be useless to turn and look, and I knew it would be upset if it couldn't get off it's chest what it found so angering if I looked and spoiled the illusion, so I let it rant. I got bored and went to listen to streaming music, and imagined the sounds as glowing bubbles floating to a surface somewhere infinitely above, and then I went to sleep.

I woke up as self-loathing and insecure and as hobbled by my preconceptions as before - to be honest, Rocky Horror Picture Show and the early '90s BBS scene and pre-Long-September usenet had a much more consciousness altering effect - but it was a very pleasant evening escaping that hot mess I call a head for a while.

If it's legalized, I'll try it again sometime. No hangover!
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:00 PM on September 8, 2016 [5 favorites]

really tho if you want to flail around vomiting and crying and seeing the face of god in peru you can just go up to the altiplano and enjoy your epic unacclimatized soroche

it's free and also there are llamas
posted by poffin boffin at 7:22 PM on September 8, 2016 [6 favorites]

Metafilter: It's $5 and also there are llamas
posted by Greg_Ace at 9:09 PM on September 8, 2016 [2 favorites]