April 9, 2002

10:14 AM

Why Suicide Bombing Is Now All The RageAmong Palestinians, it has become normal--noble, even--for promising men and women to slaughter themselves in pursuit of revenge and the dignity it is thought to bring. "What was once more of an individual decision by a small group is becoming much more mainstream," says Jerrold Post, an American psychiatrist who has studied suicide bombings in the West Bank. The suicide-homicides have come to be seen by most Palestinians as their last, best hope.
posted by Rastafari (47 comments total)

...army of suicide bombers. I guess enventually there'd be no more army. Its sad that "The suicide factory is in full tilt now". Sad sad.
posted by tomplus2 at 10:18 AM on April 9, 2002

From the article:

In June a poll taken in the Gaza Strip found that 78% of the population approved of suicide bombings, considerably more than supported peace talks (60%).

To me, these numbers don't add up, unless it was aked as two seperate questions. Even then, a majority of Palestinians (60%) support peace talks. The question is, why can't this majority make their voices heard to the Palestinian Authority. And second, how reliable is polling here?

And finally, what does it say about this religion (or any religion -- for that matter) which would advocate suicide bombings as a way to advance their agenda?
posted by Rastafari at 10:19 AM on April 9, 2002

damn, tomplus2, that was fast...
posted by Rastafari at 10:20 AM on April 9, 2002

Choosing whether or not to kill yourself is one of the most important decisions a teenager can make.
posted by bingo at 10:23 AM on April 9, 2002

why wait? kill them all now, and save the perfectly good explosives for excavation of the new WTC basement.
["Please select mode of death. Quick and painless or slow and horrible."]
posted by quonsar at 10:24 AM on April 9, 2002

Put people in a situation where they feel wronged, threatened, trapped, and powerless and they will lash out in whatever way is left to them. Chalk it up to human pride and dignity or bestial fight-or-flight, the outcome is the same. And predictable.
posted by rushmc at 10:33 AM on April 9, 2002

Let them blow themselves up... near the governments that fund them, namely Iran and Saudi Arabia
posted by dagny at 10:37 AM on April 9, 2002

There is something so wretched about a whole class of people who feel that suicide/murder is a laudable thing. It's a mental and spiritual sickness that has to work like acid in the Palestinian society. They are raising a whole generation of sociopaths. Say what you will about their motivations -- and they are being mightily provoked by the Isrealis -- there is nothing noble or even sane about blowing up innocent people along with yourself.

There can be no sanctioning of suicide bombing. Absolutely none. There is much truth in the Palestinian claims against the Israelis -- the endless daily humiliation, the lack of self-determination -- but this rash of suicide bombings only makes them seem like mindless zealots who really don't want peace at all.

Sometimes I think the US should disengage from this region entirely -- Israel and the Palestinians are like scorpions in a bottle, and they won't stop fighting until one or the other is dead. The US will be hated no matter what it does or does not do; there is no winning move for us.
posted by mrmanley at 10:48 AM on April 9, 2002

In the same breath, why not ask why young people join the U.S. military? It has a little to do with brain chemistry, and a lot to do with the horrific lies that suicide bombers and young soldiers believe. Lies we tell them.

There is precisely only one minor difference between bombing civilians from an aircraft, and killing civilians with shrapnel consisting of one's very own blast-flung bones.

The suicide bomber isn't a coward.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 10:49 AM on April 9, 2002

Auditioning for a spot on "Politically Incorrect", are you, f_and_m?
posted by yhbc at 10:54 AM on April 9, 2002

The suicide bomber isn't a coward.

You got balls man. No effing brain, but a shitload of balls. In your blindingly arrogant approach to mock the US army, you forget that our army has legitimacy, given to us by our people and world governments who condone our actions. Suicide bombers take the law into their own hands. They are not held accountable to any standards but their own.
posted by BlueTrain at 10:57 AM on April 9, 2002

See also An Arsenal of Believers from the New Yorker.

Rastafari: I found a couple of polls, but I'm not sure either one is the actual source.. SOme of the numbers are similar. Or maybe this one, which notes that support for suicide bombings soared to 68% from 29% in 1999.
posted by dhartung at 10:59 AM on April 9, 2002

Man, I remember suicide bombing before they sold out.
posted by solistrato at 11:13 AM on April 9, 2002

fold_and_mutilate: Why not ask why young people join the U.S. military?

These days? More than likely, to serve their base enlistment and get out of the military with experience, training, and their Montgomery G.I. Bill. Everyone I know that went into the military did so for exactly these reasons, and have no intention of a) becoming 'brainwashed' or b) making a career out of it.

(BlueTrain flaming fold_and_mutilate. Never thought I'd see the day...)
posted by Danelope at 11:19 AM on April 9, 2002

As was noted in NY Times op ed piece, what if fairly soon suicide bombers begin to become "fashionable" world-wide? Say, for example, the type of guy(s) that hijacked a plane and crashed it into the WTC someday soon blow themselves up at a Yankee game because theyt hate what America stands for? Now that is courage, and we are to applaud it, right?
posted by Postroad at 11:26 AM on April 9, 2002

JUST SAY "NO" TO MIDEAST FPPs
posted by BentPenguin at 11:35 AM on April 9, 2002

The Palestinians have suicide bombing, the Israelis have collective punishment - either way the innocents get it. In some ways you could say that suicide bombing is more honourable - the murderers don't get to go home afterwards.
posted by niceness at 11:39 AM on April 9, 2002

Well, if Americans continue with the "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" attitude exemplified in this thread, I wouldn't be at all surprised if suicide bombing becomes more "fashionable."

If these people strapping bombs to their bodies thought they had any chance against us in a straightforward war, then they'd go to war against us. But they know that'd be hopeless, so they use the only methods of resistance available to them.

Resisting an invincible foe -- which is, to these folks, what the US looks like -- does indeed take courage. It's not something to applaud, but neither is it insanity or stupidity.
posted by ook at 11:40 AM on April 9, 2002

exemplified by some in this thread, I mean
posted by ook at 11:41 AM on April 9, 2002

Say, for example, the type of guy(s) that hijacked a plane and crashed it into the WTC someday soon blow themselves up at a Yankee game because theyt hate what America stands for?

I'm no less worried about the hijacker type than of the next Columbine type.
posted by homunculus at 11:46 AM on April 9, 2002

BlueTrain: In my opinion legitimacy seems a much more incendiary word than coward.
posted by IpxODIE at 11:48 AM on April 9, 2002

The suicide bombers have no state, and therefore no laws. That's why they're blowing themselves up.
posted by vbfg at 11:50 AM on April 9, 2002

IpxODIE, you're joking, correct? Even IF you believe that our president is illegitimate, which has yet to be proven by any of you (who believe this nonsense), Congress approved military action. Aside from which, any Gallup Poll will tell you that the majority of America believes that military action against the Taliban was warranted.
posted by BlueTrain at 11:54 AM on April 9, 2002

Er, make that "no more worried about about the hijaker type..." And actually I am somewhat more worried about a suicide bomber terrorist, I'm just afraid that now that suicide bombing is in the public awareness we might end up with both.
posted by homunculus at 12:00 PM on April 9, 2002

I was reading this earlier and felt it related to this thread.

"The scholastically fine distinction between deliberately killing civilians and knowingly killing civilians has become, it seems, a moral chasm."

--Michael Neumann (links to the article, it's the homepage today, the url will change by tomorrow.)
posted by bittennails at 12:23 PM on April 9, 2002

A bomb is a bomb

Somewhat specious quick article as it attempts many linkages that just don't fit, but there is some truth to what this author is saying.

I imagine if you added up all the Palestinian casualties and subtracted terrorists (dying at their own hands or Israeli hands), assassinations, and all other military or collateral damage targets, you would still find that many more non-combatant Palestinians have been killed. However why are we even in a situation where we are stacking up bodies and counting them? It's madness. This front page post seems to be another in a series of suicide bomber posts that tries to somehow implicitly use the atrocities of one side to justify the atrocities of the other.
posted by cell divide at 12:57 PM on April 9, 2002

JUST SAY "NO" TO MIDEAST FPPs

...and just say no to feeding the trolls regardless of how much (many?) "balls" they purportedly have.
posted by UncleFes at 1:07 PM on April 9, 2002

any Gallup Poll will tell you that the majority of America believes that the X files is based on fact.

Which, I suppose, tells you just how much weight you should place in what the majority of America believes.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:20 PM on April 9, 2002

Did you read my post completely five fresh fish, or did you simply want to nitpick?
posted by BlueTrain at 1:30 PM on April 9, 2002

how does that old song go?...

fighting soldiers from the ____
fearless men who _____ and die
mean who mean just what they say
these brave men of the _____ _____
posted by ssdecontrol at 2:13 PM on April 9, 2002

There have been several articles in the media explaining why suicide bombing is fairly unlikely in these here parts. This one, for example. A small population under seige in a dirt-poor war-torn "country" lashing out is a very particular circumstance.
posted by donkeyschlong at 2:30 PM on April 9, 2002

The suicide bombers have no state, and therefore no laws. That's why they're blowing themselves up.

Umm, vbfg, the Palestinians may or maynot have a state, but what they do have is the Koran, or in the absense of that, they can follow the universal law of right to life.

In this case, the imams or the mullahs are encouraging suicide bombings by calling them "martyers," and any concept of the universal law has flown out the window -- perhaps on both sides.
posted by Rastafari at 4:17 PM on April 9, 2002

they can follow the universal law of right to life.

Don't kid yourself, the only universal laws are in physics.
posted by rushmc at 4:42 PM on April 9, 2002

I don't notice the clerics, mullahs, and people over 25 doing this. Looks like what it is: DEPRAVED BRAINWASHING BY DISGUSTINGLY DEPRAVED PEOPLE.
posted by ParisParamus at 4:50 PM on April 9, 2002

It seems a lot of us are condemning the violent nature of these kinds of attacks. But aren't we forgetting the kind of desperation that makes one decide to take one's own life?

We usually sympathise with people who commit suicide, and try to understand their desperate lonely lives.

But why aren't we doing that with the Palestinian suicide bombers? Why are we condemning their actions before we try to understand the kind of lives and desperation they experience that drives them to do it?
posted by timyang at 5:01 PM on April 9, 2002

timyang - Well, they aren't exactly Kurt Cobain now are they? It just might have something to do with the fact that they are purposefully blowing up others with them.
posted by schlyer at 5:18 PM on April 9, 2002

I sort of agree with Paris for a change (I think) -- religion is at best a red herring/smokescreen here. This is clearly the politically motivated brainwashing of desperate youths. No one in any position of authority or piety seems to be in much of a hurry to reach heaven. It's awfully easy to pass the buck (to say nothing of the bang) to the unwashed disheveled masses who pretty much have nothing else left to do and nothing to live for anyway.

The Palestinians need petting therapy like crazy.
posted by donkeyschlong at 5:25 PM on April 9, 2002

But aren't we forgetting the kind of desperation that makes one decide to take one's own life?

No, we are not. "Normal" people who commit suicide don't aim to kill bystanders. These people are not so miserable that they want to end their life. These are Kamikazes, not "suicide bombers." And frankly, any society which condones, much less honors such people forfeits their right to have their own country/nation.

These are lunatics who hate the Israelis more than they love their families, friends and living. They get no sympathy. Zero.

As for those other Palestinian Arabs who agree with me, they deserve their own country. But only one in which they are allowed to express their disgust at the Kamikazes. This is why Arafat and his ilk must go.
posted by ParisParamus at 5:33 PM on April 9, 2002

These are lunatics who hate the Israelis more than they love their families, friends and living. They get no sympathy. Zero.

these are people exposed to extreme situations for long periods of time. i think they should get sympathy because had they money and education i don't think we would ever know suicide bombings of this kind. what bothers me about the israeli response to the bombings is that they are making an extreme situation yet more desperate. perhaps in the short term there won't be as many bombers, but the resentment that is now being planted could make things much worse in the future.
posted by moz at 5:56 PM on April 9, 2002

These are lunatics who hate the Israelis more than they love their families, friends and living.

Is your lens truly so myopic? It is quite reasonable to imagine that many of these individuals choose to do what they do out of the belief that it will HELP the situation of their family and friends. One can quibble with their logic, but it seems silly to totally discount their motivations and paint them as black-and-white Hollywood-cardboard hatemongers and madmen (and women).

Do you not think that, given the technology and pressed sufficiently that some of those who fought the American Revolution might not have adopted such desperate techniques against the British? They are, after all, often given credit (questionably, I think) for inventing "guerrilla-style" warfare. Which is in no way to imply any parity between the two situations but rather to observe certain universalities in human beings.
posted by rushmc at 6:15 PM on April 9, 2002

these are people exposed to extreme situations for long periods of time. i think they should get sympathy because had they money and education i don't think we would ever know suicide bombings of this kind

Would that also apply to Native Americans and African-Americans here? If not, why not? And if so, why aren't they strapping bombs to themselves and blowing people up? Paris is absolutely right: these people should get absolutely NO sympathy for their actions of slaughtering innocent Jews to advance their twisted agenda.

After all, how many people, throughout the history of time, and even now (especially now) have been in (are in) similar situations? Is this the answer? I certainly don't believe so.

And furthermore, screw the UN --and the rest of the world-- for telling Israel to back off. Israel has an absolute right to self defense, and should excercise it to the fullest extent. After all, it wasn't too long ago that we went half way around the world to (try and) wipe out al-Queda/Taliban for a SINGLE act of terrorism on our soil. How can we, and why should we, expect Israel to do any less for the lives of their citizens and the security of their nation.
posted by Rastafari at 8:08 PM on April 9, 2002

Would that also apply to Native Americans and African-Americans here? If not, why not?

you ask "And if so, why aren't they strapping bombs to themselves and blowing people up?" i think a better question would be why are palestinians strapping bombs to themselves and blowing themselves up? social action is an effect of myriad causes; i don't think it's possible to simply transplant the action of one oppressed group (suicide bombing) to another group.

religious representation must surely be a factor; i mean representation, and not religion itself, for islam is meaningful only insofar as it is presented to and interpreted by the people. (hence the, in my opinion rational, deduction that not all muslims are alike.) exposure to violence is no doubt also a factor; war zones have existed for some time in the region. economics is yet another factor considering both currency and real estate.

as for what some of the social action taken by native americans or african americans may be in response to their own plight -- i'll let you do your own research.
posted by moz at 8:33 PM on April 9, 2002

Is Israel actually launching a 'war of self-defense' or a 'war on terror'? This article has an interesting take. It's by Tracy Wilkinson, who has in the past been praised by Los Angeles supporters of Israel for her 'non-biased' coverage.
posted by chaz at 8:55 PM on April 9, 2002

After all, it wasn't too long ago that we went half way around the world to (try and) wipe out al-Queda/Taliban for a SINGLE act of terrorism on our soil.

Except we weren't occupying Afghanistan beforehand and we're not an apartheid state.

I'm actually pro-Israel *and* pro-Palestine. My real problem is they've both done shitty things to each other.
posted by donkeyschlong at 10:36 PM on April 9, 2002

Suicide bombers killling soldiers - Is that immoral also?
posted by niceness at 1:53 AM on April 10, 2002

Suicide bombers killling soldiers - Is that immoral also?

Not per se. Depends on their cause, but not per se.
posted by ParisParamus at 2:40 AM on April 10, 2002

Good article, but one which projects a subjective intent on something objectively otherwise.

The PA had its chance to show itself legitimate. It did nothing. It did not speak out against the Kamikazes.

So you can speculate all day what is/was in the heart of Ariel Sharon. But objectively, the PA either "blew it," or never had any intention of being legitimate. And the Israeli's current military campaign is objectively legitimate.

PS: you know, the suicide bombers and their principals might have actually gained some sympathy (howver inapprorproate) in Israel if they were only blowing up settlers in the West Bank and Gaza. And the PA might have gained some sympathy if they acted/spoke out similarly. But attacks in Haifa and Jersusalem, etc. show Arafat for the criminal liar he always was.
posted by ParisParamus at 2:50 AM on April 10, 2002